121130ED

Page 1883

1 Examination by Mr. Stringer:

2 Q. Good morning, Mr. Pinter. Let me remind you -- I mentioned this

3 to you yesterday when we met that -- I know you can understand English

4 quite fluently. If you would just wait until -- give a pause after I've

5 asked my question and not start answering it until there's been a pause

6 so that the interpreters can keep the pace with us.

7 Let me ask you first, Mr. Pinter, you've indicated that you

8 currently live in Canada. Where were you born and where did you grow up?

9 A. I was born in Osijek and bred there, I grew up there.

10 Q. Were you living there in 1991?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And were you married at that time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What was -- if I could ask, what was the ethnicity of your

15 spouse?

16 A. [In English] Serb.

17 Q. How were you employed in 1991?

18 A. [Interpretation] I worked at the emergency centre in Osijek,

19 emergency ward.

20 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber, please, what specific function

21 or position you held at the emergency centre.

22 A. I completed a medical school and I worked as a male nurse or a

23 paramedic.

24 Q. How long had you been employed as a nurse in 1991? How long had

25 you been working in that capacity?

Page 1884

1 A. More than ten years.

2 Q. And as a nurse, did you work in a hospital? Did you have another

3 function? What did you typically do during a working day?

4 A. I worked at the ER emergency room; in other words, dealing with

5 victims of traffic accidents, home visits.

6 Q. Did you ever go out into the field and treat people who were

7 injured or who had been subjected to trauma in the field?

8 A. Yes, that was the job we did. We didn't work indoors. We worked

9 out in the field.

10 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you to -- or I direct your attention to the

11 1st of August in 1991. If you could tell the Trial Chamber generally in

12 a few sentences what happened on that day and then we'll go into more

13 detail about that.

14 What happened on the 1st of August, 1991?

15 A. On the 1st of August, 1991, I can't recall exactly whether I was

16 working on that day because we were on a duty on-call. If needed, we

17 would be called out. The Osijek emergency ward covered quite a large

18 area of a radius of some 30 kilometres. If an accident occurred, we

19 would be dispatched to the location.

20 In this particular instance we were supposed to go to Dalj. I do

21 recall that on that day there were clashes in Dalj, and we were supposed

22 to visit there to see if there were any injured. We set out with some

23 four or five ambulances, if I recall correctly. The column was headed by

24 a military APC. We were supposed to pass through Bijelo Brdo and some

25 other areas that weren't under the control of Croatian policemen, so we

Page 1885

1 knew that we would come across Serbs.

2 As we reached the location, we stopped by the police station.

3 After a while, we were let into the police station --

4 Q. Okay --

5 A. -- and then --

6 Q. Let me just stop you there and ask just a few follow-up questions

7 about what you've told us so far.

8 Do you recall who actually dispatched you and the team to go to

9 Dalj, how you learned that you would be going?

10 A. We learnt that when we arrived at the ER. They would normally

11 ring us up and tell us that they needed a certain number of people and we

12 would show up.

13 When we reported there, they made up the various teams and told

14 us where we were going.

15 I believe that it went via the police administration in Osijek,

16 and then they co-ordinated it with the army.

17 Q. What was the competition -- excuse me, the composition of the

18 teams that were organised before you left, the medical teams?

19 A. Normally there was a driver, a paramedic, and a physician. I

20 think we had four or five ambulances, but we had only two to three

21 physicians. So in my ambulance, there were just the driver and I. We

22 didn't have a physician on that day, although normally we would have one.

23 Q. Now, you indicated that you passed through a place called

24 Bijelo Brdo. If you could just give us a general idea of what was the

25 situation at Bijelo Brdo.

Page 1886

1 A. Bijelo Brdo was the the first location that wasn't under the

2 control of the Croatian policemen; in other words, there was a

3 check-point between Sarvas and Bijelo Brdo that we had to get past. From

4 then on, the next location was Dalj. But our journey went smooth on our

5 way to Dalj, nothing happened.

6 Q. You mentioned that you were led by a military APC. Can you

7 recall which military organisation that APC was associated with?

8 A. It was the Yugoslav People's Army.

9 Q. Okay. And just so the record's clear then, after you passed

10 through Bijelo Brdo, then you were in an area that was under the control

11 of the Serb police or the Serb side, if I can put it that way?

12 A. You can put it that way. At that time, there were police forces

13 still present in Dalj, whereas Bijelo Brdo was under the control of the

14 locals.

15 Q. All right. You've indicated that you were dispatched to Dalj and

16 then you arrived at the police station. Were you initially instructed to

17 go to the police station there, or is that where you were led by the JNA

18 APC?

19 A. The APC was at the head of the column and they were our guide.

20 We didn't know where we were supposed to go to.

21 Q. Do you recall how long approximately it took for your team to

22 make it to the Dalj police station after leaving Osijek?

23 A. Around an hour.

24 MR. STRINGER: If, with the Registrar's assistance, we could pull

25 up 65 ter 6329.

Page 1887

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer, are we now at the Dalj police

2 station? Because I thought we had the story up until the arrival at

3 the -- what is the name?

4 MR. STRINGER: Bijelo Brdo.

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: The Bijelo Brdo police station.

6 MR. STRINGER: I can clarify that, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

8 MR. STRINGER:

9 Q. Mr. Pinter, you've heard Judge Delvoie's question. You passed

10 through the check-point at Bijelo Brdo and then were led by the JNA to

11 what place?

12 A. To Dalj, to the police station there.

13 Q. And is that where you stopped?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And we will -- in just a minute we'll talk about what happened

16 after you arrived at the Dalj police station, but first I'd like to

17 direct you to what should be a map on the screen in front of you. Do you

18 see that, Mr. Pinter?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And there's a pen that's attached to the screen in front of you

21 and it might be necessary for the Registrar to assist, but I just wanted

22 to ask if you could, with a line or some arrows, just indicate on the map

23 the route that your team took when you travelled from Osijek to Dalj.

24 A. From Osijek through Nemetin, Sarvas, Bijelo Brdo, to Dalj.

25 Q. Okay. And if you could perhaps just place a circle around the

Page 1888

1 word "Bijelo Brdo," just so that we see the location of the check-point.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Okay. Thank you.

4 MR. STRINGER: Your Honour, we tender that exhibit.

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked as marked by the witness.

6 THE REGISTRAR: This shall be assigned Exhibit Number P311.

7 Thank you.

8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

9 MR. STRINGER:

10 Q. Now, Mr. Pinter, upon arriving at the Dalj police station, do you

11 recall whether there was armed conflict taking place? What was the

12 general situation in the town?

13 A. It was peaceful. There were no clashes. There was no gun-fire,

14 nothing.

15 Q. I don't know if I've asked this yet. Approximately -- again, to

16 the best of your recollection, it was a long ago.

17 Approximately the time that you left Osijek and then the

18 approximate time you arrived at the Dalj police station?

19 A. I think we set out at around noon or perhaps 1.00 p.m.

20 Q. Before you arrived in Dalj, did you have an idea in advance of

21 the nature of the injuries or the people who you were called to attend

22 to? Did you have any idea what had been going on?

23 A. No, not at all.

24 Q. Now when you arrived at the Dalj police station, can you -- well,

25 just tell us in your own words, what transpired then? What happened?

Page 1889

1 What did you observe outside the police station?

2 A. As we arrived at the police station, we parked in the street. We

3 weren't able to get out of the ambulance right away. We were waiting to

4 be told that we could come out.

5 So we were waiting in the car. When we got the permission to

6 come out, I went to the police station which was partly destroyed. We

7 saw several dead bodies at the front door to the police station. I

8 stepped in. We saw several dead bodies of individuals who were wearing

9 police uniforms. And then we went back out.

10 Q. Did you see any people outside the police station who were

11 living?

12 A. Yes. I saw Goran Hadzic who was speaking with the commander, the

13 officer of the JNA. We first saw them actually talk, and it was only

14 then that we got into the police station.

15 Q. The JNA commander that you've referred to here was the same JNA

16 commander part of the JNA that led you down into Dalj.

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Do you recall -- well, did you see -- you said you saw some dead

19 bodies at the front door to the police station. I take it, is that on

20 the inside of the police station or were there dead bodies outside?

21 A. There were several dead bodies of civilians outside, and within

22 the police station there were only dead bodies in police uniforms.

23 Q. Can you give us an idea roughly the distance between you and

24 Mr. Hadzic and the dead bodies outside the building that you observed.

25 A. 20 to 30 metres; less even.

Page 1890

1 Q. Did you speak to Mr. Hadzic or do you remember anything he said?

2 A. No, I didn't speak to him. I don't recall anything in

3 particular.

4 Q. How did you recognise that it was Goran Hadzic?

5 A. I had seen him quite a few times on TV. He was the sort of

6 person you saw frequently on TV.

7 Q. Do you know what position he held at the time?

8 A. No. No. I know that he was -- he had frequently featured on TV,

9 and I know that he represented the Serb people, something like that.

10 Q. You said that you went inside the police station. Do you recall

11 roughly how much time you spent inside? If you could just give us a bit

12 more detail about what you saw when you entered the structure.

13 A. I believe we spent half an hour inside. We went all through the

14 building. I think it had two floors and a basement.

15 I specifically remember the body of one policeman there, but I do

16 believe that there were more. At one point, as I was passing by one of

17 the bodies, I saw that there was his police ID card next to the body with

18 his photo, name, and particulars. I spontaneously reached for the ID and

19 I took it with me. Later on, I took it to the Osijek police station.

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes that we didn't hear what

21 the witness said just now.

22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, could you speak up a little bit and

23 more into the microphone. The interpreters have difficulty hearing you.

24 MR. STRINGER:

25 Q. Mr. Pinter, maybe if you could just -- you had indicated that you

Page 1891

1 had reached for the identification and you took it with you to the Osijek

2 police station. Was there anything else you wanted to add to that?

3 A. Well, yes. That was it. I took the ID along, and a day or two

4 later, I took it to the Osijek station to let them know that this

5 policeman was there and that he had been killed. And the person I talked

6 to made an unofficial note of it. I handed it over. I explained to him

7 what I had seen and why I brought the ID along.

8 Q. Well, could you describe the condition of the Osijek police

9 station? How did it look from outside? How did it look from inside upon

10 your arrival?

11 MR. GOSNELL: Sorry, I think that it may not be the Osijek police

12 station that you're asking about.

13 MR. STRINGER: Oh, apologies. I appreciate the correction.

14 Q. The Dalj police station. If you could describe the Dalj police

15 station.

16 A. When we reached the street at which the police station was

17 located, we saw tracks of -- caterpillar tracks, in fact. The police

18 station itself was in quite a state of disrepair. I had this feeling by

19 looking at it that they had shelled it, that it had been shelled by tank

20 shells.

21 When we got in, everything was destroyed. All the bodies that

22 were there were -- it's hard to describe it. Well, at any rate, what

23 sticks in my mind is that the heads of these policemen were quite weird.

24 It seemed as if somebody had shot them in their heads.

25 Q. You say it seemed as if someone had shot them. Was this just

Page 1892

1 your impression, or was it based upon anything that you'd seen in your

2 experience at the time as a nurse attending trauma victims in the field?

3 A. I did have previous experience. I went to other locations, such

4 as Tenja, which is a place close to Osijek, so I had occasion to see war

5 injuries.

6 But what I saw in Dalj appeared to me to be head injuries. And

7 it was hard for me to believe that they had all received shots in their

8 heads as the fighting was going on. I rather had the idea that it

9 happened after they were killed.

10 Q. Did you find any wounded police officers who were alive in the

11 police station?

12 A. No.

13 MR. STRINGER: Now, Mr. President, we have a video-clip - it's

14 already in evidence at P00003 - that we would like to play and then we'll

15 ask the witness to comment on it.

16 And, just for the record, the video portion is in evidence; I

17 think the audio is not. And we're not offering the audio. It's the

18 images that we're going to ask the witness to comment on.

19 [Video-clip played]

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is the police station.

21 You can see the body of one police officer. And this is the exterior,

22 the parking-lot. You can see the traces of tank caterpillars on the

23 road. This is the street leading towards the police station. You can

24 see the church there, and the police station is just across the street

25 from the church. And the staircase leading upstairs from the entrance of

Page 1893

1 the police station. Again, the church. We came from the direction of

2 the church.

3 MR. STRINGER: All right. With the Chamber's permission, I'd

4 like to just go through the video one more time and just to stop at a

5 couple of places, just so that we can indicate the time signature where

6 the witness has made various comments.

7 So if we could start it again, and I'll ask that it be stopped a

8 couple times along the way.

9 [Video-clip played]

10 MR. STRINGER: Okay, if we could stop it here.

11 Q. You'd indicated that this was one of the bodies or -- that you

12 found inside.

13 Is the image you're seeing there consistent with what you've told

14 us about the head wounds that you observed when you were inside? I know

15 it's not the best image.

16 A. Well, I suppose so. I don't know -- yes, I guess.

17 Q. Okay.

18 MR. STRINGER: Okay, we can continue to run.

19 [Video-clip played]

20 MR. STRINGER: Okay, if we can stop here just for a moment.

21 Q. You'd made reference to having seen what you said civilians --

22 civilian bodies outside the building. Would these be among the civilians

23 or the -- what you indicate were civilians outside the building?

24 This is at 2 hours, 37 -- 2 minutes, 37.6.

25 A. No. I believe that this is behind the building, whereas the

Page 1894

1 bodies of the civilians were in front of the police station building,

2 very close to the entrance into the building.

3 Q. Did you see -- well, that's a good clarification then. So this

4 appears to be the back side of the police station?

5 A. It should appear so, yes.

6 Q. Okay. Have you seen what you believe is the front side of the

7 police station on the video? And we'll continue to let it run, and you

8 stop us when we're looking at the front side of the police station now.

9 [Video-clip played]

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the front.

11 MR. STRINGER: Okay. Okay. We can -- if we can stop it there.

12 Q. You mentioned caterpillar tracks, and you made reference to a

13 tank. Were those markings on the front or the back side of the Dalj

14 police station, as far as you recall?

15 A. Well, they were on the road.

16 Q. Okay. And just for the record, that would be on the front, the

17 front of the police station. Is that correct? The road that runs along

18 the front of the police station.

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, this video-clip's already in

21 evidence so it won't be tendered again.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Pinter, while you -- well, how many -- you were at the

23 police station. Were there other members of the medical team with you

24 looking at the police station or in your area?

25 A. No. One or two ambulances were sent to the elementary school in

Page 1895

1 Dalj, which is close to the police station. And later on, when I spoke

2 to the guys who had been sent there, I learned that they had seen human

3 bodies and those bodies were piled up. According to them, there were

4 some 10 to 15 naked bodies without uniforms and the uniforms were next to

5 them. And those uniforms belonged to SNG members.

6 Q. Would that be ZNG, just for the record?

7 A. Yes, yes, ZNG.

8 Q. Now, did you personally go over to the elementary school?

9 A. No, I did not.

10 Q. After you completed your inspection of the police station and

11 came back out, did you see Mr. Hadzic anymore?

12 A. I don't recall.

13 Q. Was the JNA commander still nearby at that time, when you

14 finished inspecting the police station?

15 A. They were outside. They never entered the police station.

16 Q. After you finished inspecting the police station, you mentioned

17 that others were at the elementary school. Did anyone on the medical

18 team find any wounded persons, soldiers, police, civilians? Were there

19 any wounded people that were found to be returned or taken to Osijek for

20 treatment?

21 A. No, nobody.

22 Q. Do you remember generally what was the condition of the town of

23 Dalj? You've described the condition of the police station. Did you

24 observe similar destruction or evidence of conflict in other parts of the

25 town that you saw?

Page 1896

1 A. No, nothing else. No.

2 Q. Did you observe whether there were any sort of what we call

3 mopping-up activities? That would be --

4 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I think there's -- counsel's risen.

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: I'm sorry.

6 MR. GOSNELL: Objection, leading.

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer.

8 MR. STRINGER:

9 Q. Did you observe any armed Serb personnel moving around the town,

10 the streets of Dalj?

11 A. No, we didn't see anybody.

12 Q. After you were finished at the police station and after your

13 colleagues were finished at the elementary school, were you directed to

14 any other structures or locations in Dalj to look for injured people?

15 A. No, we were not. But somebody did decide - and I don't know who

16 it was - to take a different road on the way out.

17 So we stopped several times on the main road, and the military

18 officer who guided us stopped and called out to people to come out if any

19 of them were wounded, and women and children started coming out. We put

20 them in the ambulance and we took them to Osijek. But that's already

21 when we were on the way back to Osijek. We did not find any wounded, as

22 a matter of fact.

23 Q. You said the military officer who guided you called out people to

24 come if they were wounded. Is this the same JNA commander you've

25 mentioned already or was it a different person?

Page 1897

1 A. Yes, that was the same officer.

2 Q. And were you again being led by this commander in the JNA APC?

3 A. Yes, he was the leader. He was in the APC. We followed him.

4 Q. Do you recall approximately how many of the women and children

5 you picked up and then returned to Osijek with?

6 A. Five to six people in each ambulance. At that point in time, I

7 didn't know exactly how many there were. When we arrived in Osijek, we

8 saw that there were about 30 to 40 people, mostly women and children.

9 Q. Do you recall any men who accompanied you back to Osijek?

10 A. I know that there was one, the father of one of our doctors. We

11 picked both the parents up, the parents of that doctor who worked with

12 us.

13 Q. Do you recall their ethnicity?

14 A. They were Serbs.

15 Q. Were both the parents Serbs?

16 A. I think so.

17 Q. Did you know the ethnicity of the women and children? Were you

18 able to determine that or not?

19 A. I was not. I think that they may have been Croats, but I'm not

20 sure.

21 MR. STRINGER: If we could, with the Registrar's assistance, pull

22 up exhibit 65 ter 6237.1.

23 Q. Now, Mr. Pinter, this is quite obviously an aerial image. Are

24 you able to, from looking at this, orientate yourself and indicate what

25 this place is?

Page 1898

1 A. This is Dalj, an image of Dalj, an aerial image of Dalj

2 obviously.

3 Q. And would it be possible for you, taking the pen again, first to

4 indicate with an arrow the direction that your medical team came into

5 Dalj when you arrived from Osijek? What's the road you were on? Which

6 direction were you moving?

7 A. This is the road that we took.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. We arrived from the direction of Osijek, from here. And this is

10 where the police station is. And this is the church that you saw in the

11 other clip.

12 Q. Okay. Could you put a number 1 outside the circle around the

13 Dalj police station, please.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. And then a number 2 around the church.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Could you please place a circle around the elementary school.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. And a number 3 underneath that.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. And then, just for the record, inside the circle at number 1,

22 would that be the location where you saw Mr. Hadzic with the JNA

23 commander?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you now indicate the road that you -- the path, I guess,

Page 1899

1 that you followed when you were picking up people, when you were being

2 led out of the town by the JNA commander when you were picking up some

3 people. What was the -- was it the same road or was it a different road?

4 A. This is the road we took.

5 Q. Were you led by the JNA commander back to the check-point at

6 Bijelo Brdo?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you describe what happened at Bijelo Brdo, the check-point?

9 A. As we were leaving Bijelo Brdo, they had set up a -- barricades

10 in the direction of Sarvas that was under the control of the Croatian

11 police. We were stopped by the local people there, those who manned the

12 check-point. Some of them started approaching the vehicles, and they

13 started interrogating us about the people in the ambulance, who they

14 were, where were they being taken to. This may have lasted for four --

15 or ten minutes at the most, and at one point fire was opened. Bursts of

16 fire could be heard.

17 The APC started moving and we followed it. In the meantime,

18 there was some commotion, shouting, but we managed to pass between the

19 buses and the barricades, and we arrived in Osijek.

20 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, at this time, we'd like to show

21 another video-clip. It's already in evidence as P000 --

22 JUDGE HALL: Sorry --

23 MR. STRINGER: Oh, I apologise.

24 JUDGE HALL: The -- Mr. Witness, your reference to fire being

25 opened, were you able to say from which group? Who opened fire? You

Page 1900

1 mentioned that this check-point was under the control of the Croats, and

2 of course, your convoy was led by the -- a JNA APC. Were you able to

3 tell which side opened fire?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The barricade on Bijelo Brdo was

5 under the control of the Serbs who were in Bijelo Brdo. That's where we

6 stopped. Before we entered the area in the direction of Sarvas, which

7 was under the control of the Croatian forces, we were stopped there. I

8 can't say who was the first to open fire, how it transpired. In any

9 case, shooting started, and the officer that led us decided to get going

10 and we just followed him.

11 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer, this marked exhibit --

13 MR. STRINGER: Yes, we tender that --

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked as marked by the witness.

15 THE REGISTRAR: This shall be assigned Exhibit Number P312.

16 Thank you.

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

18 MR. STRINGER:

19 Q. Okay. Now the next -- we have a video, Mr. Pinter, another video

20 that we want to look at. This one's been acting a little bit troublesome

21 for us in Sanction so we're going to use Windows Media Player here, so

22 we're pulling that out of its file at the moment. It's already in

23 evidence as P00095. It was 65 ter 6338.1.

24 MR. STRINGER: Okay. We're good. If we could just play this.

25 [Video-clip played]

Page 1901

1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]:

2 "No wounded? All dead? There is no one in a van?

3 "The fighting was going on in Aljmas, Dalj, Erdut. The ambulance

4 is from Osijek.

5 "Were on their way to pick up the wounded.

6 "No wounded? All dead?"

7 MR. STRINGER: I've just asked Mr. Laugel to stop it there.

8 Q. Mr. Pinter, before we look at more, can you tell us if you

9 recognise this, and, in particular, whether you recognise the people

10 whose images we're looking at here?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. So tell us about this. What's going on, who are these people?

13 A. This is on the way back from Dalj where we were stopped when

14 leaving Dalj. This is the first week and the first -- this first man is

15 Dr. Franjo Sot, and the other is Luka Bacic, who is from Dalj; he's a

16 Serb, a native of Dalj.

17 This is where we were stopped.

18 MR. STRINGER: Okay. We can continue.

19 [Video-clip played]

20 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]:

21 "No children in the van, no, no. These are children.

22 "All right. All right. Where did you go to, to Aljmas or to

23 Dalj?

24 "To both places.

25 "Was it all on fire?

Page 1902

1 "Was there shooting all over the place.

2 "Who was firing?

3 "We don't know. We don't know anything.

4 "And how is in Dalj now?

5 "It's bad.

6 "Are there any wounded?

7 "We don't know anything. We were in a cellar ...

8 "We were in a cellar and there were shells around us.

9 "And while the column ambulance is escorted by the APCs of the

10 JNA, fire was opened from Sarvas on Bijelo Brdo where the column stopped.

11 "Hold fire. Hold fire. Hold fire."

12 MR. STRINGER: Okay.

13 Q. Witness, there was just a reference to Sarvas. How far away from

14 Bijelo Brdo was Sarvas?

15 A. Under a kilometre.

16 Q. And perhaps on this it would be useful to come back to

17 65 ter 6329, which was the map we looked at earlier. 6329.

18 Now here, Mr. Pinter, we can see Sarvas which is located to the

19 west of Bijelo Brdo on that main road. Recognising that you were not a

20 military person, just to try to clarify, the Serbs were holding the

21 position at Bijelo Brdo, the Croats were holding Sarvas. Do you know

22 what was the status of the territory in between?

23 A. It was no man's land. It wasn't under anyone's control.

24 Q. All right. Now in the video, we just heard gun-fire and someone

25 shouting "hold your fire." Are you able to say, based on your

Page 1903

1 recollection of what you've seen, whether that was fire from the Serb

2 side or from the Croat side?

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes.

4 MR. GOSNELL: Objection. I'm not sure if it was asked, but it

5 has been answered.

6 JUDGE DELVOIE: I think, indeed, Mr. Stringer, that it was asked

7 and answered.

8 MR. STRINGER:

9 Q. Do you know if there were Croatian guns in the vicinity of

10 Bijelo Brdo?

11 A. I don't.

12 Q. Now, after you passed through the check-point at Bijelo Brdo,

13 were you then able to make it back to Osijek without any more difficulty?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Mr. Pinter, now just to switch to a different topic, I'd like to

16 ask if you were a member of a group sent to receive people who arrived in

17 the Osijek area from Aljmas?

18 A. Yes, I was at Nemetin, the river port where the refugees from

19 Aljmas and Dalj and the general area were supposed to arrive. They were

20 supposed to arrive on a dredger or a trailer ship. It's the river port

21 of Nemetin close to Osijek.

22 Q. Do you recall approximately when these people arrived? Perhaps

23 in relation to the 1st of August that you've just been talking about.

24 A. I can't recall the exact date. I think it was three or four days

25 later.

Page 1904

1 Q. And to come back to - again, the map, with the Registrar's

2 assistance - 6329, you've mentioned the river port of Nemetin close to

3 Osijek, Mr. Pinter. I want to ask if you could place a circle around

4 Nemetin here, if you see it.

5 A. Nemetin is right here, and the port would be here.

6 Q. Okay. And then this boat or this dredge, barge, would have

7 arrived from Aljmas, as you've indicated, by what route?

8 A. They set out from Aljmas and then along the Drava river, here.

9 Q. And when those people arrived, were you present when they were

10 taken off the boat?

11 A. Yes, I was.

12 Q. Do you know anything, did you learn anything about their -- the

13 trip, the event, their condition upon their arrival?

14 A. They were all tired. I think that the whole journey from Aljmas

15 and Dalj took some two hours. They were all exhausted.

16 Q. And then just upon their arrival, what was done with these

17 people?

18 A. As far as I know, the Red Cross saw to it that they were found

19 accommodation in various schools. They were transported on buses to

20 Osijek and put up at various accommodation centres.

21 MR. STRINGER: At this time, we'd like to show another video

22 already in evidence P00094. It was 65 ter 63 --

23 JUDGE DELVOIE: How about this marked map?

24 MR. STRINGER: I'll tender this, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked as marked by the witness.

Page 1905

1 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter document 6329 marked by the witness for

2 the second time today shall be assigned Exhibit Number P313. Thank you.

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer, with this video-clip, are we still

4 with the people on the boat?

5 MR. STRINGER: Yes.

6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.

7 [Video-clip played]

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note we don't have the

9 transcript.

10 MR. STRINGER: I was just going to say the commentary is not

11 being tendered by the Prosecution. Again, it's just the images so it's

12 not necessary to interpret.

13 [Video-clip played]

14 MR. STRINGER:

15 Q. Mr. Pinter, recognising, of course, that you were not present in

16 Aljmas, are you able to indicate whether this appears to be the boat or

17 the vessel that brought the people from Aljmas up to Nemetin by Osijek?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, we have no further questions.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: I have perhaps two small questions of the witness

21 in relation to people arriving on the boat.

22 How many people did arrive on that boat, Mr. Witness? Can you

23 estimate the number?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 200, 300, 400. I don't have a

25 clear idea.

Page 1906

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Do you know where that boat came

2 from? I know it came from Aljmas, but who organised it, do you know

3 that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The boats were sent from

5 Osijek to Aljmas to collect these people, the refugees.

6 JUDGE DELVOIE: So from Osijek that would mean they were sent by

7 the Croatian side to collect refugees?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

10 Cross-examination.

11 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President, good morning. I will be playing a

12 video, and unfortunately there's some technical arrangements that need to

13 be made before I can play a video. I was wondering whether it might not

14 be best to just take the break now and then start in half an hour. Is

15 that possible or ...

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.

18 So, Mr. Witness, we will take the break now and come back at

19 quarter to 11.00. The court usher will escort you out of court.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.

24 [The witness takes the stand]

25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Pinter, I have one more small question of you

Page 1920

1 further.

2 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: The witness may be brought in.

4 MR. GOSNELL: And just to make the position clear, it's our

5 position that Mr. Hadzic was not there on this occasion.

6 [The witness takes the stand]

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Let's take this off the screen, Mr. Registrar,

8 please.

9 MR. GOSNELL: Sorry, can I just ask, was the previous image that

10 was on the screen, was that -- was it displayed in the same manner on the

11 witness's screen as it was displayed on the rest of our screens?

12 Because -- I only say that because that, unless it was moved, the last

13 time I saw the image -- actually, it was just the top.

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: It was shrinked.

15 MR. GOSNELL: Oh, somebody moved. All right. That's -- yeah, I

16 was checking to see.

17 Q. Mr. Witness, I would like to go back and just show you the video,

18 if I may, that we were looking at.

19 [Video-clip played]

20 MR. GOSNELL: Now what I want -- let's stop it there.

21 Q. I want to ask you, sitting there right now, to the best of your

22 recollection, can you exclude that that is the person who you saw talking

23 to the JNA escort commander? That person that we've just seen on the

24 screen. Can you say that that is to a certainty not the person that you

25 saw?

Page 1921

1 A. I can't say whether it was or wasn't. I can't see the face at

2 all.

3 Q. But leaving aside the face and looking at -- and let's play it.

4 [Video-clip played]

5 MR. GOSNELL:

6 Q. Looking at the attire, looking at the clothing he's wearing,

7 looking at the boots, looking at the belt, looking at the colour of the

8 camouflage uniform, looking at those things, can you say whether that

9 corresponds in any way to your recollection of the person that was there

10 that day speaking to the JNA escort commander?

11 A. I don't even remember the uniform, what that person was wearing.

12 I have no memory of that at all.

13 Q. You have no memory of that at all, and yet you testify that you

14 know it was Goran Hadzic. How do you know it was Goran Hadzic if your

15 memory is so faint of this event?

16 A. The only thing I remember is the face, the face is all I recall.

17 I don't remember anything else of that man.

18 Q. And the face, you say, is the face of Goran Hadzic and you're

19 sure about that. Is that your testimony, that you're sure that it was

20 Goran Hadzic's face that you saw on that occasion?

21 A. I believe it was Goran Hadzic.

22 Q. You believe. What does that mean, that you believe it was

23 Goran Hadzic?

24 A. What I mean is when I saw that person I thought that it was

25 Goran Hadzic the way I'd seen him before. It may have been somebody

Page 1922

1 else, but the way I remember that scene in my head, that was

2 Goran Hadzic. That's all I know.

3 Q. And is it possible that your belief that this may have been

4 Goran Hadzic was affected by the fact that you had seen his face on

5 television, as you say, several times and then when you saw a man who

6 resembled him you believed it was him? Is that possible?

7 A. Perhaps yes; perhaps no. I don't know. I can't tell you.

8 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 1D169, please.

9 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Gosnell, I apologise. While

10 you're looking for the document and before you move on to another piece

11 of evidence, to another exhibit, I would like to come back to the

12 question of the commander who was in charge of the escorts.

13 Witness, you told us that on page 33 of the transcript, lines 17

14 through 19, page 33, you told us that you didn't know what the rank of

15 the JNA officer was. He was in command of the escorts until Dalj, but

16 you didn't know his rank; right?

17 That's it, yes.

18 My question, sir: At that time when things were happening, did

19 you make a distinction between various ranks of the JNA? Did you know

20 how to distinguish between them?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you. That officer that

23 we're talking about, did he wear any markings of his rank? Did he have

24 any patches?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell you. I was not in

Page 1923

1 close contact with him. I did not have an occasion to come closer to him

2 and to look at him. I didn't know who he was. I didn't see him that

3 well. I don't know. I did not pay attention to his rank or his patches

4 or the markings of the rank.

5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] And you did not hear any of the

6 soldiers addressing him by his rank on that day?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't hear that at all.

8 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

9 MR. GOSNELL:

10 Q. Just to follow-up on that, Mr. Pinter, are you sure that this

11 person was even an officer?

12 A. What do you mean when you say "an officer"? He led us. He

13 issued orders. I don't know what his rank was. Maybe he was a sergeant

14 or perhaps something else. I don't know.

15 Q. How many men did he have under his command, as far as you could

16 perceive?

17 A. I don't know how many people there were in the APC. I don't know

18 how many soldiers.

19 Q. And was he in command of one APC or more than one APC?

20 A. As far as I can remember, there was just that one in front of us.

21 I don't know whether there were any behind us, but I believe that there

22 was just that one that led us.

23 Q. Thank you very much for those answers, sir.

24 Now I'd like to turn your -- ask you to turn your attention to

25 1D00172, which is there on the screen in front of you. In particular, at

Page 1924

1 the man with the beard who is not wearing a hat on the left-hand side of

2 your screen.

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. GOSNELL: I believe this is actually 1D00169 for the record.

5 Q. Now, that man there on the left, is it possible that that's the

6 man who you saw in front of the Dalj police station?

7 A. No, I don't think so. I don't know. I can't tell.

8 Q. You're not sure?

9 A. I'm not sure.

10 [Defence counsel confer]

11 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President, we would seek to tender this on the

12 basis that it is a still taken -- extracted from a video which, as I

13 understand it, has been admitted. I don't have the number handy, but I

14 just wanted to put a place marker here to let you know that we'll be

15 tendering this, and I'll give you the proper exhibit number when I can.

16 JUDGE DELVOIE: And will you also tell us who this man is?

17 MR. GOSNELL: I can tell you who he is. It's -- well, actually,

18 out of caution, I'm not sure that I can definitively tell you who he is.

19 So I think I should just perhaps -- I can tell you who I believe it to

20 be, but I'm not certain as to who it is. And if Your Honour wishes that

21 information, I'm happy to provide it.

22 JUDGE DELVOIE: And is there anything indicating that this man

23 could have been -- could have been at the scene?

24 MR. GOSNELL: Indeed, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.

Page 1925

1 MR. GOSNELL: His name, as I understand it, is Marko Loncarevic.

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes.

3 MR. GOSNELL: Our position is not necessarily that it was he who

4 was there. Our position is that it may have been he who was there.

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: And who is this Marko Loncarevic?

6 MR. GOSNELL: He was in the Dalj TO. He was a member of the

7 Crisis Staff. And there has been testimony heard about him already.

8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. So admitted and marked for

9 identification. Is that it, Mr. Gosnell?

10 MR. GOSNELL: Yeah, the difficulty is I have a 65 ter number for

11 the video that we extracted it from, but I don't have the P number.

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So you will upload a -- you don't have the

13 P number? The P number is 241.

14 MR. GOSNELL: The Registrar is, once again --

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes --

16 MR. GOSNELL: -- diligently on top of everything that's in

17 evidence, and I thank him for that.

18 Q. And I just have a few more questions for you, sir --

19 MR. GOSNELL: Yeah, we would tender that, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: But it has already an exhibit number.

21 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22 JUDGE DELVOIE: So it's a new number for the still you mean?

23 Yeah. Okay.

24 MR. GOSNELL: Yes, please, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

Page 1926

1 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit Number D18. Thank

2 you.

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

4 MR. GOSNELL:

5 Q. Before the arrival of the refugees from Aljmas, were preparations

6 under way in Osijek for their arrival?

7 A. I believe so, but I don't have any information about it.

8 Q. And why do you say you believe so?

9 A. Because they knew that they were coming. It was an organised

10 thing. They sent boats over there. They didn't know how many were going

11 to come. That's the extent of information we had as we were waiting

12 there for them. They did dispatch boats to collect them. We knew that

13 we were to receive them.

14 Q. And did the boats arrive in Osijek on -- well, what date did they

15 arrive in Osijek?

16 A. I don't know the exact date.

17 Q. Was it the day after you yourself had been to Dalj?

18 A. I don't know whether it was on the following day, two or three

19 days later. I don't know.

20 Q. Can we say, as best you can recall, that it was no less than a

21 day after you had been in Dalj?

22 A. Well, yes, definitely at least a day later.

23 Q. And by "a day later," you mean at least the next day; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And prior to your trip to Dalj, do you recall whether there were

Page 1927

1 any preparations under way by any authorities in Osijek to receive

2 refugees? Let's not say refugees from anywhere. Let's just say refugees

3 in general. Were any preparations underway in Osijek to receive

4 refugees?

5 A. I don't have any information about that. I don't know.

6 Q. You testified earlier today at page 11 of the provisional

7 transcript that you saw caterpillar tracks in front of the police

8 station. Would those also be tracks that you would recognise as the

9 tracks of tanks?

10 A. Yes.

11 [Defence counsel confer]

12 MR. GOSNELL:

13 Q. Mr. Pinter, thank you very much for your testimony.

14 MR. GOSNELL: Your Honours, no further questions.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could we have D18 back on the screen, please.

17 Mr. Stringer, is there a common understanding between you and the

18 Defence that -- who the man on the still is? Or at least that the man on

19 the still is not Goran Hadzic?

20 MR. STRINGER: Well, it's clear that the man is not Goran -- the

21 man on the still is not Goran Hadzic. There is not an understanding or I

22 can't say that we at this moment agree that it is the other individual

23 whose name was given.

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: So -- but there is an understanding that it is

25 not Goran Hadzic?

Page 1930

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: But still, if -- if his statement to the police,

2 when going there with the identification card, did not come up in

3 cross-examination, where's your foundation to deal with it in re-direct?

4 Why didn't you deal with it in -- so if you have this note, why didn't it

5 come up in chief?

6 MR. STRINGER: Because the issue --

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Well --

8 MR. STRINGER: Of --

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: I'm --

10 MR. STRINGER: Could I suggest, Mr. President, respectfully I

11 could make a fuller explanation perhaps if the witness was not able to

12 hear us.

13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.

14 Mr. Witness, Mr. Pinter, could you please leave the courtroom for

15 a moment.

16 [The witness stands down]

17 MR. STRINGER: By way of a proffer, Mr. President, the note that

18 the witness has referred to, it's actually called an Official Note. It

19 is a part of his OTP witness statement; however -- and much of this

20 Official Note that the Croatian authorities made is reflected in the OTP

21 statement. But of course he's viva voce; no statements of this witness

22 are being tendered.

23 The note was taken on the 2nd of August, 1991, and on that day

24 the witness told the Croatian police that according to this note he saw

25 Goran Hadzic at the Dalj police station.

Page 1931

1 Now, during the direct examination, the witness's recollection on

2 this point ...

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Stringer, we interrupted you.

5 MR. STRINGER: The direct examination was the direct

6 examination --

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer, before I let you continue, it would

8 be good if you would not read into the transcript the content of the note

9 before we decide whether you can use it or not.

10 MR. STRINGER: I apologise, Mr. President.

11 If I could just simply put it this way: I would like to ask the

12 witness if he recalls telling the Croatian police, the day after the

13 incident when the note was made, whether he, at that time, indicated that

14 he had seen Mr. Hadzic.

15 The witness's recollection on this issue was not in dispute until

16 the cross-examination. It's not something -- back where I come from we

17 would say bolstering. I don't know that it would have been appropriate

18 to bolster the evidence during the direct by asking, inviting the

19 witness, to talk about having talked to this -- talked to the Croatian

20 authorities about it the following day. He simply saw what he saw.

21 What's relevant now that his recollection -- the identification's been

22 challenged is, in our view, the fact that on the very next day he

23 identified Hadzic to local authorities.

24 JUDGE HALL: But, Mr. Stringer, please tell me if I'm missing

25 something. This isn't a situation where we're dealing with a witness's

Page 1932

1 account of events and where, because of the passage of time, it is of

2 assistance in terms of his initial report. What is under challenge here

3 is a much narrower question. It is the issue of the quality of his

4 identification at the time. So does it matter what his report was the

5 following today as contrasts all the way up to when he gave evidence this

6 morning? Because that is what the challenge is. So how would we be

7 assisted by this?

8 MR. STRINGER: We see that it's relevant because the video that

9 was shown of the man walking out of the building that was shown

10 repeatedly -- I mean, the witness has indicated he can't say or he

11 doesn't remember. He doesn't remember. And to the extent that the

12 witness has now indicated he doesn't remember, it may not be the

13 dispositive fact. Obviously it's all before the Trial Chamber. But if,

14 in fact, the witness said the very following day to an official that he

15 identified or he saw Goran Hadzic on this location, we think it is a

16 relevant piece of evidence that is a part of -- that ought to be part of

17 the Chamber's consideration, given that the events we're talking about

18 here occurred about 21 years ago or more.

19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Anything from you, Mr. Gosnell?

20 MR. GOSNELL: Just very briefly, Mr. President. To the extent

21 that it's relevant in terms of what was said during the chief, the

22 witness actually didn't refer to the note in question. What the witness

23 said was that he brought the ID and the person -- so he hands the ID over

24 and he says:

25 "The person I talked to made an unofficial note of it. I handed

Page 1933

1 it over."

2 There's no indication that this witness actually knows or at the

3 time knew of the creation of this Official Note, which is an entirely

4 different thing. It's an account of, allegedly, what he saw. That's not

5 what he referred to in direct examination. So to the extent that that's

6 relevant to Your Honours, that part of the record needs to be corrected.

7 Secondly, the Prosecutor said that he felt constrained not to

8 raise this document on chief because it would be improper bolstering.

9 Well, if it's improper bolstering on chief, it's improper bolstering --

10 far more improper on re-direct. That's the second point.

11 And the third point is that I couldn't agree more with

12 Judge Hall's remark that the challenge was in respect of the witness's

13 identification. Nothing in the intervening years makes any difference to

14 that, and so, therefore, this document is not relevant. Unless, Your

15 Honours, a whole bunch of relevant material from the document starts

16 coming in, and then you'll find that the entire line of examination was

17 conducted very deliberately to avoid it, and the cross was conducted in a

18 way to -- in a manner that reflected their avoidance of those issues.

19 And now that the cross has been conducted, the horse is out of the barn,

20 and the Prosecutor's trying to get a second bite of the apple.

21 It's as simple as, that, and it's not proper.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Objection sustained.

24 MR. STRINGER: There will be no -- let me double-check before I

25 say.

Page 1936

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer.

2 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Prosecution submits that the record should reflect that the

4 Defence did not put to the witness the proposition that he was mistaken

5 in his identification and that Hadzic was not present. That's how we

6 interpret the cross-examination. The issue might surface in the future.

7 It might be useful. I don't know if the Chamber or if the Defence even

8 shares the Prosecution view on this, but in our view, it was not put to

9 the witness certainly in the way that, in our respectful submission,

10 ought to be done. And it perhaps would be useful to know whether that

11 view is shared because I'm not -- we will not raise objections of --

12 along these lines if, in fact, the Chamber views that we got close enough

13 to it today that it was put to the witness.

14 I just mention that, that in our view it was not put to the

15 witness, and the issue has not been perfected, if I may put it that way.

16 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Stringer, the line of questions that was put,

17 can there be any possible other interpretation but that it was a

18 challenge to the witness's initial assertion that he saw the accused when

19 he went to Dalj?

20 MR. STRINGER: Certainly that interpretation can be drawn,

21 Your Honour.

22 My experience in this institution is that different Judges coming

23 from different backgrounds could possibly differ on whether, despite

24 whatever interpretation can be drawn, the express rule of the language

25 has been met, and that's why I raise it as a way of asking for the

Page 1937

1 Chamber's guidance.

2 I can tell Your Honour I've been called out by a Judge from a

3 different country for not having put it more directly on a very similar

4 issue. And so it's something I think that possibly Judges can disagree

5 on. And being an American, it's not an issue that I've dealt with

6 tremendously in my pre-Tribunal experience, I should add.

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell.

8 MR. GOSNELL: Just a brief remark -- well, two remarks.

9 Specifically, I do believe that the issue was put squarely and

10 fairly to the witness, challenging whether or not he had -- could

11 identify this person as Mr. Hadzic. I think his testimony was clear on

12 that. And I don't think that Rule 90(H) is a technical rule involving

13 perfection of questions. I believe what Rule 90(H) is about is to

14 prevent either party from holding back an issue with a highly relevant

15 witness and not asking questions about it and then, at the end of the

16 case, putting together evidence in a certain sequence to present a

17 certain proposition that is directly contrary to what a highly relevant

18 witness would have been able to comment upon. I believe that's the

19 purpose of Rule 90(H), not, you know, whether or not you call the witness

20 a liar or say: Did you completely -- you know, isn't it true that you

21 can't say that that's Mr. Hadzic after a line of ten questions, in which

22 he said: I can't identify.

23 So I don't believe it's a technical rule. I believe it has a

24 broader purpose. And when you look at the way in which Rule 90(H) has

25 been interpreted in Judgements, it certainly hasn't been given that

Page 1938

1 technical interpretation.

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: But, Mr. Gosnell, did you put to the witness your

3 position that Mr. Hadzic was not present at that moment and at that time?

4 MR. GOSNELL: Well, I --

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: And does that make any difference?

6 MR. GOSNELL: I believe that once you've received certain answers

7 from a witness in which he indicates that he cannot say for certain who

8 it was, then the additional question, I would say, is redundant.

9 Especially -- especially, Your Honours, when it was on the record what

10 our position is. It's not really so much the witness being -- answering

11 an obvious question in an obvious way when you've already got the

12 predicate answers.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Do you have another question, Mr. Stringer?

15 MR. STRINGER: This is unrelated. For future practice -- and

16 this relates generally to the conduct of the trial and the public's right

17 to -- or the public nature of the trial. Because, of course, the trial

18 is being followed, and that's a good thing, in our view.

19 The Prosecution -- our 92 ter witnesses, it's our understanding

20 that when a 92 ter witness testifies and a 92 ter statement is admitted

21 even as a public document, it's not readily available to the public. And

22 so the essence of the witness testimony is not readily, therefore,

23 available to the public because, of course, as a 92 ter witness, we

24 simply cut to specific issues or clarifications.

25 In its pre-trial guide-lines, the Chamber indicated that it --

Page 1939

1 that the Prosecution need not read a summary of the witness's testimony

2 before beginning, and that's been done in other cases. It's not been

3 required here, and we've not been doing it. But the end result is that

4 for the public who wish to follow the proceedings, it's -- can be

5 difficult for them to really have an idea of what the witness evidence is

6 about, at least on the direct examination, because the bulk of it is in

7 the statement itself. And the Prosecution would like to -- we were --

8 are considering changing the practice to provide some very brief summary

9 or overview of the witness's evidence. We would prefer to do it,

10 however, outside the presence of the witness, because it's probably

11 something that's better done without the witness listening to the

12 Prosecution purporting to summarise their evidence. So there's some

13 tension there.

14 But we think that there's a public trial issue. There is an

15 access issue, if I can put it that way, that needs to be addressed, and

16 it's certainly not something to be decided today or, you know, urgently.

17 But I just wanted to mention it to the Chamber, and it's perhaps a

18 conversation that -- communications can continue among the parties and

19 the Chamber in the coming weeks because we would -- the Prosecution would

20 like to have -- find a way to address this so that more information can

21 be available to those who wish to follow the case, particularly in

22 respect of these 92 ter witnesses.

23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Stringer.

24 Does the Defence have an instant view on this?

25 MR. GOSNELL: The initial view is that summaries are not

Page 1940

1 particularly helpful. They are, of course, one party's interpretation of

2 the statement, usually not entirely shared in all regards by the other

3 party. And we believe that the agencies that cover this Tribunal do an

4 excellent job of reviewing witness testimony and making it available to

5 such news sources as are interested to pick them up. SENSE agency does

6 an excellent job of reviewing and summarising testimony.

7 So we would say there's no particular reason to make such

8 summaries available for the purposes of publicity, and given that they're

9 often somewhat biased and slanted, it's not particularly helpful to the

10 trial.

11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer, do you want to add something?

12 MR. STRINGER: Just to mention that, in fact, SENSE is one of the

13 parties - there have been several - who've expressed frustration, if I

14 can put it that way, with the issue. And so that's among a number of

15 reasons why I've raised the issue.

16 JUDGE DELVOIE: We'll consider the issue and come back to you

17 later, as soon as possible.

18 Anything else?

19 MR. STRINGER: Just to say with trepidation that the Prosecution

20 does not have any additional witnesses for today, Mr. President. Again,

21 I regret the down time that we've had this week and we're working to

22 prevent that in the future, but it does happen.

23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

24 Anything from the Defence?

25 Court adjourned.

Page 1941

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.09 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Monday, the 3rd day of

3 December, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.