130124ED

Page 2736

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. You may be seated.

3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Your witness, Ms. Clanton.

5 MS. CLANTON: [Microphone not activated]

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 MS. CLANTON: Excuse me, Your Honour. May I ask the court usher

8 to please show the witness 65 ter 06382, not to be broadcast. And this

9 is --

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: For the personal data of the witness, wouldn't it

11 be better to go into private session, Ms. Clanton?

12 MS. CLANTON: Yes.

13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Because you will probably ask some questions

14 about her career and so on?

15 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour, this is simply the pseudonym sheet.

16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yeah, I know, but afterwards, wouldn't you ask

17 some questions that would better be asked in private session?

18 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour, I was going to not do that

19 immediately.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So pseudonym sheet, not broadcast. Can we

21 do that?

22 Examination by Ms. Clanton:

23 Q. Ma'am, the Court has ordered certain protective measures with

24 respect to you and your evidence, including a pseudonym and image

25 distortion. If you could please look at the pseudonym sheet that appears

Page 2737

1 in front of you. Without reading anything on the sheet in front of you,

2 can you tell us if it is your name that appears.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And directing your attention to where it says "date of birth," is

5 that your date of birth?

6 A. It is.

7 MS. CLANTON: Your Honours, I'd like to tender the pseudonym

8 sheet, 06382, into evidence under seal, please.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked under seal.

10 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1018. Thank

11 you.

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

13 MS. CLANTON: Can I ask the court officer to please bring up

14 65 ter number 02389 at this time, not to be broadcast. I would also like

15 to ask the usher to provide a hard copy to the witness, please.

16 Q. Witness, did you give a statement to representatives of the ICTY

17 in June 1999 in Osijek?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do you recognise this as your statement?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. If you could please look at your screen at the English version in

22 front of you and tell me if you recognise the signature at the bottom of

23 the page.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Whose signature is that?

Page 2740

1 Q. And finally, now that you've taken the solemn declaration, do you

2 affirm the accuracy and the truthfulness of your statement?

3 A. Yes.

4 MS. CLANTON: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution would

5 like to tender 65 ter 2389 and the associated exhibit 2388 into evidence

6 under seal. We've also prepared the redacted version of the statement,

7 which is 65 ter 02389.1, which may also be admitted. The associated

8 exhibit is at tab 3.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

10 THE REGISTRAR: The confidential statement shall be assigned

11 Exhibit Number P1019, admitted under seal. The public redacted version

12 of the statement shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1019.1. And the

13 associated exhibit, 65 ter document 2388 shall be Exhibit Number 1020.

14 Thank you.

15 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour, the associated exhibit should also be

16 admitted under seal, please.

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can we do that, Mr. Registrar?

18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

20 MS. CLANTON:

21 Q. Ma'am, if you feel that answering any question would reveal your

22 identity, you may indicate your concerns about answering that question

23 publicly, that is, in open session.

24 Before the war began, what was the ethnic composition of Klisa?

25 A. 10 per cent Croat, 90 per cent Serb.

Page 2741

1 Q. And how far from Klisa is the town of Celije?

2 A. I would not know now exactly how many kilometres, but it's not

3 far by road.

4 Q. What happened in Celije in the summer of 1991?

5 A. We saw thick smoke, a lot of smoke, and we knew something

6 terrible had happened.

7 Q. What was the ethnic composition of Celije?

8 A. It was 100 per cent Croat.

9 Q. What happened to the Croats of Celije?

10 A. Some were killed and some managed to escape.

11 Q. What impact did this destruction of Celije have on you and the

12 local Croat population in Klisa?

13 A. That caused great fear.

14 Q. And in Klisa in 1991, were there any changes that you observed in

15 respect of the people who you saw in the village?

16 A. When the troops started coming in, our local people changed

17 completely. It was not the same population as before.

18 Q. These troops that came in, what was their ethnicity?

19 A. Serbs.

20 Q. What information did you hear about where they came from?

21 A. It was said they came from Belgrade, Kragujevac, Nis.

22 Q. And how were they dressed?

23 A. A variety of uniforms because there were all sorts of troops, the

24 Yugoslav People's Army and those paramilitary units.

25 Q. And a moment ago you mentioned the Serbs who were from Klisa.

Page 2742

1 How were these local Serbs dressing at this time?

2 A. The men wore those military uniforms.

3 Q. Did you hear that the local Serbs who wore the military uniforms

4 belonged to or were linked with any armed units in the area?

5 A. Yes, because they were all together. They went around together.

6 They drove around in cars together.

7 Q. Have you heard of Arkan and his men or Arkan and his volunteers?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you hear that the local Serbs in uniform had any connections

10 with these units?

11 MR. GOSNELL: Objection, leading.

12 MS. CLANTON:

13 Q. What did you hear in the village about who the local Serbs were

14 associated with?

15 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President, objection. The -- actually, the

16 witness's potential answer has now been contaminated by the leading

17 question, hasn't it? So I object --

18 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour, I can ask the question --

19 MR. GOSNELL: I object to both the questions and I would suggest

20 that even a neutral answer [sic] now is going to contaminate the answer.

21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Clanton.

22 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour, I can rephrase the question.

23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please do carefully.

24 MS. CLANTON:

25 Q. Witness, what did you observe about the behaviour of these local

Page 2753

1 Q. Now, ma'am, I just want to ask you about some details surrounding

2 what was going in Klisa before this event that you've been talking about

3 today. And here it says that:

4 "Klisa village, next to the Osijek airport, is a village with

5 12 Croatian and more than 100 Serbian houses. Even though in Trpinja -

6 the neighbouring village is, just like Klisa, on the road to Vukovar -

7 barricades were set up as early as in May, the Serbs from Klisa delayed

8 setting them up until 24 August."

9 Now, as far as you can recall, is that correct, that barricades

10 were not set up in Klisa until the 24th of August?

11 A. I really can't remember any of the dates.

12 Q. And there's an individual who is reported as having made a

13 statement in this article and it's someone named Josip Horvat. Do you

14 know Josip Horvat?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. He is reported here as saying at some point that I saw -- and I

17 quote:

18 "'I saw that the Serbs were arming themselves and where they

19 unloaded and stored automatic weapons. When I told this to our Guards at

20 the airport, they replied several days later that they had received an

21 order from Osijek that they must not disarm the Serbs ...'"

22 Now, what I want to ask you about this is whether you know

23 whether there were Guards present at the Osijek airport at any time, May,

24 June, July, August 1991?

25 A. I don't know, I don't.

Page 2754

1 Q. Do you know whether there were Guards or any armed Croatian

2 forces at all anywhere in the area of Klisa, in the vicinity?

3 A. In Klisa, the only armed people were the Serb army. I don't know

4 about anybody else.

5 Q. And when is it that the Serb army arrived there?

6 A. Sometime after Celije. Celije was set on fire and then things

7 started happening gradually. I really don't know when that happened in

8 Celije.

9 Q. Well, a little bit further down in this article it says:

10 "Three days after the barricades were set up in Klisa, the

11 Yugoslav Army began to arrive with tanks, personnel carriers, guns, and

12 mortars. And on the fifth day, there were more than 700 reservists in

13 the village."

14 Now, you've already testified about the arrival of the JNA, but

15 in terms of numbers, do you have any idea whether that's -- that number

16 would be correct, approximately? Were there 700 reservists in the

17 village by that time?

18 A. Yes, yes. The village was full of troops. I couldn't believe my

19 eyes when I saw so many people there.

20 MR. GOSNELL: May we have P311, please, which is tab 3 of the

21 Prosecution's original list. I didn't expect that marking to be there.

22 That's not on the version of P311 that I have. In any event, I don't

23 think it's important, but perhaps we could zoom in somewhat on the area

24 around the -- what's marked there as the Osijek airport. Just a little

25 bit, maybe one click, maybe one more. That's perfect. Thank you very

Page 2755

1 much.

2 Q. Now, ma'am, here on this map we do see Klisa. And is that an

3 accurate representation of where Klisa is --

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. And can you help us understand, to the best of your recollection,

6 after the arrival of the JNA troops, where was the -- if there was at

7 all, where was the boundary line approximately between where the Serb

8 forces were and where the Croat forces were? Can you describe that for

9 us?

10 A. Osijek, near Nemetin, this is where the Croats were. Tenja was

11 in the Serb hands, Klisa as well, Bobota, Pacetin, Bijelo Brdo -- now you

12 have moved the map. Can you leave it like this? Thank you. Serbs held

13 Klisa, Vera, Bobota, Trpinja, Silas. They burned down Celije. Laslovo

14 was also occupied. Please slow down, don't move the map so fast.

15 Antunovac was a Croatian village, it was occupied. Tenja was a Serb

16 village. Antunovac was a Croatian village but occupied.

17 Q. Ma'am, if I could just assist. I think there's a problem with

18 the screen because it seems to be focusing in when you touch the screen.

19 So perhaps what we can do is zoom back out a little bit.

20 MR. GOSNELL: I'm not sure if the Registrar can help and just

21 zoom in a little bit more up in the top half of the document -- yes,

22 that's perfect. Let's just leave it there.

23 Q. And, ma'am, if you could just describe that again but this time

24 without touching the screen in front of you, it will be easier.

25 A. The Serb army occupied Tenja. Klisa was occupied. Vera was a

Page 2756

1 purely Serb village. I can't see Bobota here, it's on the other side,

2 but I'm not touching anything. Antunovac was a Croatian village, people

3 fled from it. And then Bijelo Brdo was a predominantly Serb village.

4 People fled from Sarvas.

5 Q. So at this time was Tenja within Serb territory or was it in

6 Croat territory?

7 A. It was Croatian territory; however, it was occupied by the Serbs.

8 Q. Do you mean by that that there was some kind of a boundary

9 between Klisa and Tenja where there were opposing Serb and Croat forces

10 but that --

11 A. No.

12 Q. Okay. Perhaps you could explain that a little further because

13 I'm not sure that I understand.

14 A. Let me put it this way. The Serbs occupied Tenja. Klisa was

15 also occupied, and they co-operated, Serbs from Tenja and Serbs from

16 Klisa, Vera, Bobota, Silas, and all the other surrounding places, they

17 co-operated.

18 Q. So would it be right to say that at this time, in

19 October/November 1991, that Serb forces held Tenja?

20 A. It was occupied. Tenja was under the Serb occupation.

21 Q. And do you know whether there was any infiltration by Croatian

22 forces through that front line, through -- into the area that was held by

23 Serb forces?

24 A. I don't know that. I really wouldn't know.

25 Q. And you were asked the question by the Prosecutor whether your

Page 2757

1 husband was co-operating with or procured supplies for Croat forces, and

2 you said the answer to that was no. Do you know whether there was anyone

3 in Klisa village who was assisting Croat forces?

4 A. No, no. Nobody in Klisa had any weapons or any assistance. We

5 were a minority there. There were just a few Croat houses.

6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, about the map, the unmarked version

7 of this map is, as the Registrar kindly told me, 65 ter number 6329.

8 Wouldn't it be appropriate to have that one -- I don't know if we still

9 need it on the screen, but that we -- that you would tender this one

10 rather than work on a marked version.

11 MR. GOSNELL: I think that's quite a good idea, Mr. President.

12 In fact, in order to make the record absolutely clear, it's been

13 described well, but nonetheless, to make the record clear I think I'd

14 like to bring up 06329.

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: There it is.

16 MR. GOSNELL: And if we could zoom in to approximately where we

17 had the zoom with the other map. I think that's good.

18 Q. Madam Witness, could I kindly ask you, with the assistance of the

19 usher, to take a pen and mark on the map where it is that there was the

20 limit between Serb forces and Croat forces in November 1991.

21 A. I could not know exactly. I wasn't there. All I know is that

22 they entered Osijek. How far, though, I don't know. They entered

23 Osijek, but how far they went in depth I wouldn't know. I know they held

24 Tenja, the Serbs, but in the territory between Osijek and Tenja, how far

25 they went I don't know.

Page 2758

1 Q. Well, instead of having you mark specifically, because it seems

2 that you don't know -- you don't have the answer to the question with

3 that level of precision, so let's not have you mark, but let me just ask

4 you a couple of more specific questions. You've already said that

5 Antunovac -- you said that according to your information, according to

6 what you know -- knew, Antunovac in November 1991 was in Croat hands;

7 correct?

8 A. I don't know the exact date when Antunovac was occupied. I know

9 it was occupied, but I can't tell you the date.

10 Q. Well, in the fall of 1991, leaving aside any precise or specific

11 date, was Antunovac in Croat hands?

12 A. I don't know the dates. I can't tell you. It developed in such

13 a way that I know they occupied it, but I can't you when. I'm not sure.

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Madam Witness, who do you refer to when you say

15 "they occupied"?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serbs.

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

18 MR. GOSNELL: I'm done with that map. Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

19 And I won't tender it in any fashion.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

21 MR. GOSNELL:

22 Q. Now, Madam Witness, you mention in your witness statement at

23 page 1 of the English -- at page 2 of the English and at page 3 of the

24 English, a certain Rajko Mizdrak, and he's mentioned several times. And

25 last night we received information from the Prosecution that on the basis

Page 2764

1 while in open session, and whenever you need to say something that could

2 reveal your identity, you can just indicate to us that we have to go into

3 private session.

4 Now, you are going to read the solemn declaration, by which

5 witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth. I have to point out to

6 you that by doing so you expose yourself to the penalties of perjury

7 should you give untruthful or misleading information to the Tribunal.

8 Can I now ask you to read the solemn declaration the usher will give to

9 you.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 WITNESS: GH-103

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. You may be seated.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Your witness.

17 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, President, Your Honours.

18 Could we please get 65 ter document 6380 on the screen but not

19 publicly broadcast.

20 Examination by Mr. Gillett:

21 Q. Sir, do you see your name and date of birth on the sheet in front

22 of you?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. GILLETT: Could we admit that into evidence, please.

25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

Page 2765

1 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1022, admitted

2 under seal. Thank you.

3 MR. GILLETT: Could we now get 65 ter document 3258 on the

4 screen, please. And at this point, could I ask for some assistance to

5 hand the witness a hard copy of his statement as we proceed through it.

6 Thank you.

7 Q. Looking at the statement, sir, do you recognise this -- sorry,

8 firstly, did you give a statement to the representatives of the Office of

9 the Prosecutor of this Tribunal in May 2012?

10 A. I did.

11 Q. And do you recognise this to be the statement that you gave?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. And were you given the opportunity to read the statement in your

14 own language before you signed it?

15 A. I was.

16 Q. And this week in The Hague, have you again been given the

17 opportunity to read your statement in your own language?

18 A. I did.

19 Q. Now, I understand there are some corrections to be made to the

20 statement and I'm going to go through those. Firstly, at paragraph 18,

21 the last sentence refers to as many as 4.000 shells hitting Vukovar

22 Hospital per day. And I understand that this figure is too high.

23 So my question is: What would you like to say about the

24 intensity of the shelling of the Vukovar Hospital?

25 A. Well, a couple of thousand fell daily, up to 2.000. I made a

Page 2766

1 little mistake there because when I read I was not able to see whether it

2 was my mistake or the interpreter's mistake, but it was not 4.000. It

3 was up to 2.000 a day.

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, can I ask you to talk slowly so as

5 to give the interpreters the opportunity to follow correctly. Thank you.

6 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Next, is it correct that at paragraph 19 of your statement you

8 wanted to remove the terms "the warehouse" so that the sentence would

9 read:

10 "Those who had received medical assistance, they were moved to

11 the nuclear shelter in Borovo Komerc to make room for new patients."

12 A. Yes, that's right. That was a technical error. It should have

13 read "shelter," not "warehouse." I only noticed when I re-read the

14 statement.

15 Q. Next, in relation to paragraph 30, I understand you wanted to

16 correct the reference to Captain Sasa arriving with two Chetniks called

17 Nedjeljko Vojnovic and Bogdan Kuzmic. Is it correct that there were two

18 Chetniks with Captain Sasa in addition to Nedjeljko Vojnovic and

19 Bogdan Kuzmic?

20 A. There were two Chetniks together with Captain Sasa. And this

21 Vojnovic and - what's the name of the other one? - Kuzmic, they were

22 employees of the hospital, except that Kuzmic was wearing a uniform

23 because already in June or July he had left the hospital and was no

24 longer working there.

25 Q. Thank you. Other than that, are there any more changes that need

Page 2767

1 to be made to the statement?

2 A. I don't think so.

3 Q. And do you affirm the accuracy and truthfulness of the statement?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And if you were asked about these same matters today, would you

6 give the same answers?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. GILLETT: Your Honour, we tender the 65 ter statement 3258.

9 We also have a public redacted version, 3258.1, that we would tender at

10 this time.

11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Before we do that, Mr. Gillett, there is kind of

12 a problem with the annex to the statement which are a series of

13 photographs marked by the witness, and they're uploaded in e-court in

14 black and white. Markings almost invisible. We were wondering whether

15 you have the coloured version available.

16 MR. GILLETT: As always, you've predicted the next topic.

17 Indeed, these are the associated exhibits, and as you observed, the

18 copies that came out were in black and white. We've also -- have the

19 originals that he marked in a previous case in colour that we included on

20 the exhibit list, and we've included an additional list that we made,

21 which is 03258.2, which links each of the coloured versions that he

22 originally marked in previous proceedings with each of the pages of the

23 black and white photos that were annexed to his current statement so that

24 you can easily tell which one is which. So we would ask that they're all

25 admitted for the interests of simplicity.

Page 2768

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: And you're sure that now on your exhibit list

2 there is a coloured version of these photographs? Because when we looked

3 into it, there was a black and white version of the photos in it with no

4 markings at all.

5 MR. GILLETT: There should indeed be a colour version. And, for

6 example, if we went to 65 ter 02620, I believe that that will be a colour

7 version.

8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could we have that on the screen just to make

9 sure.

10 MR. GILLETT: I believe the markings are clearer to see on this

11 version.

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]

13 Sorry. The statement is admitted and marked.

14 THE REGISTRAR: The confidential statement shall be assigned

15 Exhibit Number P1023, and the public redacted version shall be assigned

16 Exhibit Number P1023.1. Thank you.

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

18 MR. GILLETT: And I understand that in the usual procedure, with

19 the court officer we'll address the associated exhibits. And if there's

20 any more information required about the coloured versions of the photos,

21 we can provide that.

22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed.

23 MR. GILLETT: Much obliged.

24 Q. Now, sir, turning to the substance of your statement, I'm going

25 to ask you some additional questions about the shelling of Vukovar.

Page 2769

1 Firstly, at paragraph 10 of the statement you say that in August 1991,

2 the JNA shelled civilian targets in Vukovar and that your apartment was

3 hit. Aside from your apartment, what other civilian locations were hit

4 at this time?

5 A. That was a settlement of four-storey and two-storey buildings.

6 They bombed that from the air. My building was hit and the building

7 facing mine, that one burnt down almost completely; and at the other end

8 of the street another building was hit.

9 Q. Were you given any form of warning before these shells hit your

10 building and the buildings around it?

11 A. No, we had no warning and we were not expecting it because they

12 were targeting only military installations or those of strategic

13 importance, the silo, the castle, and the secondary school because that's

14 where the members of the Croatian Home Guard were located.

15 Q. In your statement you say prior to this shelling in mid-August,

16 they had been targeting military locations and that this was the first

17 targeting of civilian locations. And my question, to clarify: Why did

18 you not expect a warning before there would be shelling of civilian

19 locations?

20 A. We were not expecting it. We thought they would not target

21 civilian buildings, but that started at Mitnica itself. They started

22 targeting civilian buildings in Mitnica and then all over the town. We

23 were really unprepared. We thought they would not target civilians. We

24 thought they would only concentrate on the location where the members of

25 the Croatian Home Guards Corps were.

Page 2770

1 Q. And during the attack on Vukovar, while it was being shelled, did

2 the inhabitants try to flee the city?

3 A. Some tried, but it was difficult. You see, we were encircled.

4 All around Vukovar were Serbian villages and there were roadblocks and

5 barricades there. It was almost impossible to leave Vukovar.

6 Q. Now, in your statement at paragraph 26 and the preceding

7 paragraphs, you described the JNA and paramilitaries arriving at the

8 Vukovar Hospital, and specifically at paragraph 26 you describe realising

9 that you were going to have to leave Vukovar and being upset. Now, why

10 did you have to leave the city in which you had grown up?

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 can go where they want to, to Croatia or Serbia. I was very sorry to

14 even contemplate leaving my town because I grew up there, I lived there

15 all my life, and I was very sad.

16 MR. GILLETT: Can we get a redaction at page 37, line 5 to 6,

17 about the supervisor.

18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Registrar, can we? Thank you.

19 MR. GILLETT: Thank you.

20 Q. And you mentioned you were sorry to have to leave the town of

21 Vukovar, but why did you have to leave the town of Vukovar? Why couldn't

22 you stay there?

23 A. We were told that nobody could stay, only Serbs could stay,

24 employees of the hospital of Serbian ethnicity.

25 Q. And who did this message come from or who was telling you you

Page 2771

1 were no longer allowed to stay in Vukovar?

2 A. Sljivancanin.

3 Q. And who is Sljivancanin?

4 A. Major. Veselin Sljivancanin, major, I think, by rank.

5 Q. Turning again to your description of the JNA and military --

6 paramilitaries arriving at the hospital --

7 MR. GILLETT: And could we go into private session for this next

8 question.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2772

11 Page 2772 redacted. Private session.

Page 2773

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours. Thank you.

15 MR. GILLETT:

16 Q. Moving to paragraph 47 of your statement, in this paragraph you

17 mention that while you were on the bus at the JNA barracks and while this

18 threatening behaviour was occurring, one local Chetnik said that:

19 "The ones that Neso had put on the list cannot be saved. Things

20 will not end well for them."

21 What did he mean that things would not end up well for these

22 people?

23 A. Well, that they would kill them.

24 Q. And how did he know this, that they would kill them?

25 A. You know, I suppose that all those who were in the barracks,

Page 2774

1 those paramilitaries, they all knew what would happen. I can't be sure

2 of that, but that's what I assume and eventually that's what happened.

3 Q. And to clarify, when you say "would kill them" and "that's what

4 would happen," which killing are you talking about?

5 A. Well, what do you mean? What are you asking me? For example,

6 when we saw that list -- and I will -- I believe that we will come back

7 to that later. When we were on our way back to the hospital, they had

8 already killed one of the hospital staff, a man who had worked in the

9 kitchen.

10 Q. What I'm asking, to clarify, is when you mentioned they would

11 kill them, I'm asking -- and you said that this is what happened, where

12 were the victims killed, aside from this one individual, I'm talking

13 about the group.

14 A. That person was killed in the hospital, Ivan Bozak. We already

15 said that. He was killed in the hospital.

16 Q. Sorry, not the individual, but all the other people, where were

17 they killed?

18 A. At Ovcara. They were taken from the barracks to Ovcara. They

19 were all executed there. Perhaps only five or six managed to save

20 themselves. I know some of their names, I can tell you who they were.

21 Q. It's okay for the meanwhile. Now, during proofing yesterday you

22 were shown a video and I'm going to ask you some questions about some

23 parts of that video.

24 MR. GILLETT: Could we now get video 04892 on the screen. And

25 the first clip is going to be at 0 minutes and 43 seconds through to

Page 2775

1 0 minutes and 47 seconds.

2 [Video-clip played]

3 MR. GILLETT:

4 Q. Do you recognise any of the people in this shot?

5 A. I recognise Mr. Veselin Sljivancanin.

6 MR. GILLETT: Could we now go to 51 minutes, 54 seconds, to

7 51 minutes and 59 seconds.

8 [Video-clip played]

9 MR. GILLETT: Can we pause there.

10 Q. Do you recognise anybody in this picture?

11 A. I recognise a few of them. Those were all civilians from the

12 Mitnica. I also lived there which is why I know all of them well.

13 Q. And what are they doing?

14 A. They are walking to a collection centre, as far as I know.

15 Pilip Karaula was its commander and the other one was Zdravko Komsic.

16 They negotiated with the international community - I suppose that the

17 guy, the blond guy, that was standing next to the community [as

18 interpreted], came from the international community - and with the army

19 and they agreed a surrender. And all the civilians from the Mitnica were

20 to be protected. They are now walking to a collection centre and from

21 there they were all transferred to Mitrovica. I even saw them leaving.

22 MR. GILLETT: If we could now play clip 52 minutes and 12 seconds

23 through to 53 minutes and 18 seconds.

24 [Video-clip played]

25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "I have nothing left. But please be

Page 2776

1 honest with me! Tell me honestly, don't say the things that are not

2 true. Tell me only the truth.

3 "We are innocent.

4 "What are the conditions like in the town?

5 "[In English] The town is totally broken. We have nothing. The

6 houses are burned ... the hospital ... we did not have for three months,

7 no food, no water, no medical things. They have killed all our friends

8 and we are not guilty. We didn't want the war, we only love people. We

9 don't kill them and we still don't hate. We still don't hate.

10 "[Interpretation] My heart is broken."

11 MR. GILLETT:

12 Q. The conditions in Vukovar that this girl describes, including the

13 lack of medical supplies and the lack of food, is that consistent with

14 what you experienced in Vukovar?

15 A. Precisely so. At the hospital we had some supplies, but those

16 who were hiding in the basements of private houses, they had very little

17 food. Guard members supplied us with pigs and cows that roamed the

18 streets of the city, but there was no water. We could not kill them and

19 skin them in a very safe way. But the hospital had experts who examined

20 the meat, so we had food. We didn't have bread, though.

21 MR. GILLETT: Could we now go to 1 hour, 11 minutes, and

22 15 seconds, and play the clip through to 1 hour, 11 minutes, and

23 29 seconds.

24 [Video-clip played]

25 MR. GILLETT: Could we pause there.

Page 2777

1 Q. Do you recognise anybody in this shot?

2 A. This is our doctor, our dentist, and her father.

3 Q. And what are these people doing?

4 A. These people are in the centre of Vukovar. They lived there.

5 And over bullhorns they were informed to go to the Velepromet collection

6 centre.

7 Q. Why were they told to go to the Velepromet collection centre?

8 A. Well, I really wouldn't know that. That's how things were

9 decided. The men were separated from the women and from the Serb

10 citizens. They separated the Serbs and they set them free, whereas

11 people of Croatian ethnicity and other ethnicities were treated

12 differently. The men were separated from the women. And you will see

13 later that the men were then sent to some hangars.

14 MR. GILLETT: Could we now go to the clip 1 hour and 12 minutes

15 and 36 seconds, through to 1 hour, 13 minutes, and 0 seconds.

16 [Video-clip played]

17 MR. GILLETT:

18 Q. Who are these soldiers? How would you describe them?

19 A. I would say that they were paramilitaries because they were not

20 completely clad in uniforms. JNA soldiers had different uniforms. Their

21 uniforms were complete. They were neat, clean-shaven. They looked like

22 the real army, and here in the clip you can see that their uniforms are

23 not complete. One part of their uniform was of one kind and the other

24 part of the uniform was of a different kind.

25 MR. GILLETT: Could we now go to clip 1 hour, 22 minutes, and

Page 2778

1 25 seconds, to 1 hour, 22 minutes, and 37 seconds.

2 [Video-clip played]

3 MR. GILLETT:

4 Q. Do you recognise this location?

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 with this company. They were wholesalers, and I was in the warehouse and

8 in this courtyard at least once a week.

9 MR. GILLETT: Can I get a redaction of the line 23 to 24 , where

10 he states his position, please.

11 JUDGE DELVOIE: So ordered.

12 MR. GILLETT: And we're going to now turn to the final part of

13 this video which is the final exhibit I'm dealing with here. If we could

14 go to clip 1 hour, 39 minutes, and 24 seconds, through to 1 hour,

15 39 minutes, and 40 seconds.

16 [Video-clip played]

17 MR. GILLETT:

18 Q. First, what building is this?

19 A. This is the hospital. This is the main entrance to the new

20 block.

21 Q. And what are all the people doing outside?

22 A. These are civilians. When Vukovar fell, civilians came from all

23 over the place and arrived at the hospital because they thought they

24 would be safe there, that nobody would touch them if they were in the

25 hospital.

Page 2779

1 Q. And did that turn out to be correct, that they would be safe and

2 untouched at the hospital?

3 A. Well, it was correct; however, the agreement with the JNA and the

4 Red Cross from Vukovar was that they would come to fetch them and

5 transport them. A list of all those who were there and who were loaded

6 onto the trucks and taken to Velepromet.

7 MR. GILLETT: Could we now play clip 1 hour, 53 minutes and

8 47 seconds, through to 1 hour and 54 minutes.

9 [Video-clip played]

10 MR. GILLETT:

11 Q. What are these two rooms that were shown?

12 A. That was the only true atomic shelter in the hospital. It

13 consisted of two separate rooms and that's where infants were.

14 Q. And could you describe briefly the conditions at the hospital?

15 A. The conditions were terrible. When that shell hit the hospital,

16 it shattered all the window-panes on the -- all the new hospital

17 buildings. All the patients had to be lowered into the basement because

18 there were no conditions for them to stay on any of the floors. It was

19 terrible. The shell fell and the detonation was so strong that it

20 shattered all the window-panes. It destroyed all the doors and windows.

21 The patients could not be guaranteed safety, which is why they had to be

22 lowered to the lower floors in the basement.

23 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, we would now tender this video 4892

24 for admission into evidence.

25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

Page 2780

1 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1024. Thank

2 you.

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

4 MR. GILLETT: And that concludes my questions on direct. Thank

5 you.

6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

7 Cross-examination.

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. My name is Zoran Zivanovic

11 and I represent Goran Hadzic in these proceedings. I have a few

12 questions for you that arise from your statement and your testimony so

13 far. First of all, I wanted to ask you, or rather, I would like to shed

14 some more light on the things that you have spoken about here today. On

15 page 32, you said that about 2.000 shells a day fell on the

16 Vukovar Hospital?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I wanted to ask you whether you're sure about the figure?

19 A. I can't be sure. Nobody can be sure. I know that from early

20 morning, from 7.00 until 11.00, that one shell hit the hospital every

21 minute and that's how I made my calculations. If you calculate the

22 number of hours -- although the shells fell even during the night but not

23 so many. The shelling was constant; it just didn't stop.

24 Q. According to my rough estimate, that would mean that there was

25 one shell every half a minute?

Page 2781

1 A. Approximately so.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to come

3 closer to the microphone and could the counsel be instructed to switch

4 off his mike when the witness is speaking. Thank you.

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness and Mr. Zivanovic, two things. You

6 both should, as you speak the same language --

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE DELVOIE: As you both speak the same language and in order

9 to assist the interpreters, you should stop after question and before

10 answering, so as to allow the interpreters to follow.

11 Second, Mr. Zivanovic -- and the witness could eventually be

12 attentive to that too. Mr. Zivanovic's microphone has to be shut off

13 before you start answering because through that microphone there is no

14 voice distortion. Thank you.

15 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic, please proceed.

16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.

17 Q. [Interpretation] You mentioned Mitnica during your testimony.

18 Could you please explain the term. What does the term denote?

19 A. I remember Mitnica as a child. I don't know how to explain the

20 word "Mitnica" to you. Do you know what Mitnica is? It was like a

21 border crossing. That's what "Mitnica" stands for. I wouldn't be able

22 to answer your question precisely. This is the name that has been known

23 for ages for that part of the city.

24 Q. Is that part of the town at the very entrance into Vukovar?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 2782

1 Q. Could you please tell us whether that part of the city was

2 actually the last part of the city that the Yugoslav People's Army

3 occupied during the operations around Vukovar?

4 A. I wouldn't know that. I was in the hospital. I can't tell you.

5 I was in no position to know whether it was the first one or the last

6 one. I don't know. I can't answer that because I was in the hospital

7 all the time.

8 Q. And you did not hear that even later?

9 A. No, I did not. But I think that it was among the first -- that

10 there were negotiations with the army and the international community and

11 Pilip Karaula and Zdravko Komsic, who were the commanders of Mitnica,

12 they negotiated a surrender on a condition that civilians wouldn't be

13 touched. They surrendered their weapons, but they made it conditional on

14 the civilians being protected.

15 Q. Do you know if that was immediately before the arrival of the

16 troops at the Vukovar Hospital?

17 A. I think so.

18 Q. [Microphone not activated]

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.

21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. On page 37 of today's transcript, you said, inter alia, that you

23 knew that you would be leaving Vukovar when the JNA arrived. That's on

24 page 37 of today's transcript. In paragraph 26 of your statement it says

25 the same.

Page 2783

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I would like to draw your attention to paragraph 24 of your

3 statement, to the sentence where you say:

4 "Later I heard that Major Sljivancanin said that the hospital

5 staff could stay and continue working. Most of the Serb personnel

6 decided to stay."

7 You stated earlier today that Major Sljivancanin said that only

8 Serbs could stay.

9 A. I may have misspoken, only Serbs.

10 Q. You heard that?

11 A. No. I was the last one to leave. I don't know whether you read

12 (redacted)

13 Sljivancanin had already held a meeting with the medical staff when the

14 auxiliary services had already been separated from the rest of the

15 hospital staff, and I mean clerks, drivers, and others, they were the

16 ones who were taken to the buses that unfortunately ended up at Ovcara.

17 And the load included slightly wounded patients. Somebody came to tell

18 us that we were the last to leave. We didn't know what was going on.

19 Then I saw Mr. Sljivancanin in a meeting. And then we were taken out.

20 There were three to four soldiers in a gauntlet on each side. They

21 searched us. They were probably looking for weapons or I don't know

22 what. And then we were loaded onto buses.

23 MR. GILLETT: Sorry, could we get a redaction page 50, line 5,

24 the location where the witness worked. In general, the fact that he

25 worked at the hospital I don't think is problematic, but the specific

Page 2785

1 Q. Tell me, please, was it said in the morning at the meeting that

2 you didn't attend and those who attended the meeting passed that message

3 on to you?

4 A. Precisely so.

5 Q. [Microphone not activated]

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please. Microphone, please.

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. On page 39 of today's transcript - you don't have that on the

10 screen but it doesn't matter - you stated that there were two MUP members

11 bearing the same name, Ivan, and in your statement you mention one of

12 them.

13 A. Actually, both of them.

14 Q. Yes, you mention both of them, but one of them was also known as

15 Specijalac?

16 A. You misunderstood me, I apologise. There were two Ivans who were

17 MUP members and they secured the old hospital building. The third guy

18 called Ivan, Ivan Bozak, was at the gate. He was our doorman. He was a

19 hospital employee. The first two were not hospital employees. They were

20 MUP members who provided security for the hospital building.

21 Q. Could you please tell me, if you know, of course, why was this

22 person's nickname special?

23 A. May I? Yes, I may. I don't know. There was a special school.

24 That means that he was a bit retarded, that he was not like anybody else.

25 That's why we called him Specijalac. That's why he could work at the

Page 2786

1 gate as doorman and he worked together with Bogdan Kuzmic, who allegedly

2 ended up killing him. They were both porters.

3 Q. On page 40 of the transcript you said that you knew, or rather,

4 assumed that these people would be executed, those who were singled out.

5 Could you explain why didn't it occur to you that they could be sent to

6 prison?

7 A. Because when we were taken to the barracks by those buses,

8 paramilitaries, Arkan's men, Seselj's men, and the real army met us,

9 although there were less actual army troops. And there were also

10 high-ranking officers. I don't know whether it was Mrksic and Radic. I

11 think they were there but not Sljivancanin. And they went around with

12 knives and threatened us, telling us that they would slit our throats.

13 They told one of our colleagues that they would rape his wife, et cetera.

14 Q. Did I understand you correctly? One of the officers was reading

15 from a list the names of people who were to be returned to the hospital?

16 A. Yes, you understood me correctly. I mean, I assume -- I don't

17 know what kind of rank he had but it was a high rank. He went around the

18 buses because a list was made at the hospital. Dr. Ivankovic had asked

19 Sljivancanin's permission to make a list of employees of the hospital

20 from supporting services, specifying that these people had no weapons,

21 et cetera, and they should be returned. However, not everybody from that

22 list was returned because the fifth column in the hospital - that's my

23 opinion - deleted some names because I know that my wife put certain

24 names on that list and those people were deleted. They were not called

25 out at the barracks, which means that the list was shortened in the

Page 2787

1 hospital itself. It's not the same list that Dr. Ivankovic received in

2 order to convey to Sljivancanin. I don't know if you understood me. If

3 necessary, I'll repeat.

4 Q. Let's clarify one more thing. You said you went to Velepromet

5 once a week to get supplies?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was that before the war?

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Registrar, all that has to be redacted.

13 Thank you.

14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. You said at several points in your statement -- you mention the

16 paramilitaries?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Arkan's men, Seselj's men, and also members of the

19 Yugoslav People's Army. I noticed there is no reference in your

20 statement to reservists. Do you know that in the operations around

21 Vukovar, the Yugoslav People's Army used not only the conscripts doing

22 their regular military service but also recruits of older age groups that

23 were recruited from the reserve force, the so-called reservists?

24 A. This is the first time I hear about it.

25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 2788

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, the Registrar tells me that we have

2 some problems with the fact that you answer too fast while the microphone

3 is still open. That causes problems because then we have to redact

4 everything. So if you could please make a pause before you start

5 answering the question. Thank you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I'll be more careful.

7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Do you know, generally speaking, that in the Yugoslav People's

9 Army, not only during the Vukovar operation but always, there were people

10 who had already done their military service and then received a war-time

11 assignment in the event of war or military drills?

12 A. I knew that before the war they called up reservists from time to

13 time, but I was not thinking about that in the context of this war

14 because, honestly, I never did my military service - I was declared

15 unfit - so I didn't give it any thought.

16 Q. Then it is probably difficult for you to distinguish the uniform

17 of reservists from the uniforms of others who belonged to what you called

18 paramilitary forces?

19 A. Probably. This is the first time I actually hear this

20 suggestion. I had never given any thought to reservists, but I know that

21 they were JNA because they looked like real soldiers. They were properly

22 dressed in uniform, clean-shaven, whereas the others were unkempt and

23 unshaven and looked any which way. The soldiers were better in every

24 way.

25 Q. Let me go back to your statement. Look at paragraph 35 of your

Page 2789

1 statement. You said, among other things, that between 9.00 and

2 10.00 a.m., one of the medical assistants told you to go to the main

3 entrance to the ER and going down the hallway you noticed that the

4 patients who used to be in the hallway were missing. Does it mean that

5 they had already been taken out of the hospital, put on buses, or taken

6 in some other way?

7 A. Those more lightly wounded had been taken away, whereas those

8 with serious injuries had already put -- been put on ambulances that went

9 with us, with the convoy.

10 Q. Do you know at the time when you were going out, was the convoy

11 with the lightly injured still there or had it already left?

12 A. Because I was in that convoy with those five/six buses because

13 they had been put on buses and regrettably they ended up in Ovcara, those

14 lightly wounded. They were first taken to the barracks, and after the

15 reading out of this list, some of us were returned, which was no

16 guarantee that we would be released. Serb employees of the hospital

17 first had to guarantee for us that we also worked for the hospital and

18 did not have any weapons.

19 Q. In other words, at that time you were not put in the convoy with

20 other hospital employees but with the lightly injured?

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 supporting staff, all of them were taken away.

25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Just one moment, please. 60 -- page 56, line 13

Page 2791

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours. Thank you.

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, Mr. Witness, may I remind you to

4 count to five before answering. Thank you.

5 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, let us just repeat. After leaving the

8 hospital, you got on a bus where there were both employees of the

9 hospital and people lightly injured. Were there also on the same bus

10 members of the Croatian Home Guards Corps?

11 A. I'm sorry.

12 No, but with your leave, Your Honours, I would like to clear up

13 about the reservists. At the barracks there was not a single reservist

14 because all of them were young and half of them were men from Vukovar.

15 Q. Reservists are usually men who are mobilised in extraordinary

16 situations such as an immediate threat of war or war time. Do you know

17 that such mobilisations were also carried out in the territory of

18 Vukovar?

19 A. I don't know, but I don't think so. I believe that they

20 self-organised. Just as Croats organised themselves to defend Vukovar,

21 the Serbs organised themselves as well.

22 Q. Let us go back to that bus. Could you tell us in your estimate

23 what time was it when you got on the bus?

24 A. Well, between 10.00 and 11.00. I can't tell you exactly. It was

25 20 years ago, but it was between 10.00 and 11.00 because we had just

Page 2792

1 distributed breakfasts and we from the kitchen were the last to come and

2 we were put on the bus in a group. Everybody else was already on the

3 bus.

4 Q. You said in your statement that those buses ended up at the

5 barracks in Vukovar. Tell me, approximately how much time did it take

6 you to get to the Vukovar barracks?

7 A. About 20 minutes. If everything had been normal, we would have

8 gotten there sooner, but since Vukovar was destroyed, streets were

9 covered in debris, piles of debris, and those were not regular buses.

10 They were military buses with those wooden seats and they moved slowly.

11 It was difficult to move through all that.

12 Q. You said that when the buses arrived at the barracks, there were

13 people around the buses threatening those on the bus, and among those

14 people there were also officers who did nothing to stop the others. I'd

15 like to know, in your estimate, were those officers able to prevent that

16 if they had wanted to?

17 A. Of course they were able to. They just didn't want to. You see,

18 if somebody is a high-ranking officer, they had some authority. But they

19 just let it happen. When that bus was put together, when the group was

20 put together to be returned, they made us go through a gauntlet and they

21 were hitting us with bats, with clubs. And there was an officer there, a

22 high-ranking officer, who didn't lift a finger.

23 Q. [Microphone not activated].

24 In paragraph 45 of your statement you said that a JNA officer got

25 onto one of the buses at one point, and when he got on the bus everybody

Page 2793

1 went quiet. When you said "quiet," do you also mean the people around

2 the buses -- look up that paragraph if you will.

3 A. I understand your question. I didn't mean that the crowd outside

4 suddenly went silent, but those on the bus because they were waiting to

5 see whom he would call out. And he also looked for Dr. Emedi,

6 Dr. Farkas, Dr. Kucjanovic [phoen], journalist Esterajher, and some other

7 people. Some prominent people from Vukovar, he wanted us to tell him

8 whether we knew where those people were.

9 Q. [Microphone not activated]

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.

12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. I believe you also mentioned Sinisa Glavasevic among them?

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted). He was

18 lightly wounded somewhere around his ear or his nose. That was the last

19 time I saw him.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: We will have to redact a few lines there in 60,

21 5, 6, 7, and 8, or something or thereabouts, Mr. Registrar. Thank you.

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Could you tell me whether that officer was also looking for

24 Sinisa among the others?

25 A. He did not look for Sinisa Glavasevic, just the other people I

Page 2794

1 mentioned. They were all in the same profession except for

2 Mr. Esterajher, who was a reporter for the Vukovar Radio. All the others

3 were doctors.

4 Q. [Microphone not activated]

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please, Mr. Zivanovic.

7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry.

8 Q. [Interpretation] In paragraph 46 I see that in addition to all

9 these other names you also mention Sinisa Glavasevic. Is that a mistake?

10 A. Perhaps. You see, that was 20 years ago. It could be an error,

11 but it's possible also that he was looking for him too. I'm certain

12 about the others but I'm no longer certain about Sinisa Glavasevic.

13 Q. Can you tell us how long did you stay at the barracks? How long

14 did the bus you were on stay at the barracks and how long was it before

15 you moved to the other bus?

16 A. About half an hour, no more than 45 minutes, because as soon as

17 we arrived that crowd gathered who threatened us with knives, et cetera.

18 Then this official came, or officer, Mrksic, Radic, I can't remember who

19 it was because I didn't know these people then. He called out names. It

20 was very quiet. And everyone would move as soon as they got called out

21 to the other buses. And the troops made a gauntlet. They had pieces of

22 wood, clubs, metal pipes, et cetera, and they hit us with whatever they

23 could.

24 Q. In paragraph 51 of your statement you mentioned that from the bus

25 in which you arrived a total of 25 people got out. You say that some

Page 2795

1 others remained on the bus and you give us their names. Now, let's clear

2 this up. These people whom you name, are those the ones who stayed or

3 the ones who moved with you to the other bus?

4 A. When we got there with that list from the hospital, we were not

5 sure, as I said before, that we were going to be released. We thought

6 that Serb employees of the hospital would have to guarantee for us that

7 we didn't have any weapons, whereas those people who remained, there were

8 two employees of the hospital, Marko Vlaho and Mirko Vlaho, and the rest

9 were not employees of the hospital. Marko Vlaho and the other man, I

10 have a mind freeze now, those two men named Vlaho, they were employees of

11 the hospital. But when the war began, since we had Serb drivers who left

12 their jobs, needed to be replaced and they came. And nobody could give

13 guarantees for them because the other staff of the hospital could not

14 provide guarantees for them. That's why they stayed behind and they

15 ended up at Ovcara.

16 Q. I believe that we have just spoken at cross-purposes. I meant

17 the events at the barracks because I believe that paragraph 51 of your

18 statement refers to that. You can take a look. And that's the time when

19 you arrived to the barracks on the buses and you were transferred onto a

20 different bus. I believe that that's where you were transferred to a

21 different bus, a total of 25 people who would later on be returned to the

22 hospital. I'm interested in the names that you mentioned in

23 paragraph 51. Did those people remain on the bus that brought you to the

24 barracks or were they transferred together with you to the other bus that

25 would return to the hospital?

Page 2796

1 A. I apologise. I was looking at the transcript and I was not

2 listening to you. Can you please repeat your question.

3 Q. Let us look at paragraph 51 of your statement. You say that a

4 total of 25 people were taken off the bus. You're talking about the bus

5 that arrived from the Vukovar Hospital and it reached the barracks and

6 you were among those 25 people. Did I understand you correctly?

7 A. No, you did not. There were around 25 people who were taken from

8 all the buses and put onto one bus. We were taken to the hospital. The

9 Serbian staff of the hospital had to provide guarantees that we had not

10 been carrying weapons.

11 Q. In other words, in paragraph 51 you mentioned the names of the

12 people. Did those people remain on the bus from which you were taken

13 out?

14 A. Jozo Adzaga remained, Miroslav Vlaho, and the other Vlaho whose

15 first name was Mato. And let's see who else. Another man whom I didn't

16 know, I didn't know his name, I know that he had worked at the Jugopetrol

17 company before the war and that when he was on the bus together with us,

18 when we reached the hospital he was accused of having killed Jovo Rakica,

19 who was a well-known tradesman in Vukovar, and he was among those who

20 were then taken back.

21 Q. [Microphone not activated]

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.

24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. I will no longer insist on any further explanations. You

Page 2797

1 mentioned a name [as interpreted] whose nickname was Bulidza. That's in

2 paragraph 54 of your statement. Was he on the bus which took you from

3 the barracks to the hospital?

4 A. Yes. That Bulidza was a staff member at the hospital before the

5 war. He was a butcher in the kitchen.

6 Q. And now could you please tell us something about -- you said in

7 paragraphs 55 through 63. You described the return to the Vukovar

8 Hospital, the journey to the hospital itself. And in paragraph 57 you

9 mention Major Sljivancanin. Was he there when the bus arrived from the

10 barracks to the hospital?

11 A. Yes, he was. He was in the hospital all that time, for as long

12 as the convoy did not depart. He was the person in charge. He was the

13 one who said: This one can go. If somebody guaranteed for a certain

14 person, then he would be let out from the bus and allowed to go to

15 Ivo Lola Ribar Street, where the buses were forming the convoy. There

16 were some ten ambulances, or perhaps even 15 ambulances, that transferred

17 seriously wounded. There was staff members there. I don't know how many

18 buses were there. I joined them at the end of the day. There was also

19 the International Red Cross there and the international community

20 escorts.

21 Q. [Microphone not activated]

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, Mr. Zivanovic.

24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. What was the time of day when the separation took place, when

Page 2798

1 people were separated into two different convoys, the one that stayed

2 behind and then, I suppose, was taken towards Ovcara and the other that

3 you joined? What was the time of day when that separation into two

4 convoys took place?

5 A. We were returned -- you asked me about the time when we left.

6 That was between 10.00 and 11.00. We stayed there around half an hour,

7 up to 45 minutes, then we returned. Some individuals got off.

8 Sljivancanin would approve who could leave, who could not, based on

9 guarantees, and that may have taken no longer than an hour. Then we

10 crossed to the other side, to Ivo Lola Ribar Street, but the convoy did

11 not depart straight away. I don't know what it was waiting for. It

12 probably departed perhaps an hour to an hour and a half after all of

13 those developments.

14 Q. [Microphone not activated]

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You're now talking about the convoy that you joined, the convoy

18 that would later go to Sremska Mitrovica; right?

19 A. Precisely.

20 Q. Tell me this: Could you see what was going on with the other

21 convoy in which some people stayed, did it depart about the same time you

22 did or earlier?

23 A. No, we could not see them because we were on a different side of

24 the street and we were on a different side of the hospital.

25 Q. Just one more thing that I would like to clarify and it concerns

Page 2799

1 the shelling that I already asked you about, that was one of my first

2 questions. Could you please tell me, how long did shelling last? How

3 many days, how many weeks or months? You spoke about the shelling of the

4 hospital and you said about 2.000 shells fell on the hospital on a daily

5 basis.

6 A. That was in the month of August. I don't know on what date it

7 started and it lasted until the fall of Vukovar. It was uninterrupted.

8 During the night it was not so frequent. From 11.00 in the evening until

9 5.00 or 6.00 in the morning shells did not fall so frequently. During

10 the day they were falling on the hospital non-stop, all the time.

11 Q. I'm trying to do my math. It arises from that that about

12 180.000 shells fell on the hospital. If something like that had

13 happened, I don't know what would have remained of the hospital.

14 A. Sir, you misunderstood me. Even if shells were falling in the

15 centre of the city we could hear it in the hospital. Thousands upon

16 thousands of shells fell on the hospital and in the entire city. That

17 shelling was intermittent, it did not stop. It was constant.

18 Q. I may have not understood you properly. I thought that you said

19 that 2.000 shells fell on the hospital every day. It seems that you had

20 in mind the entire city, but it did have an impact on the hospital. Is

21 that what you were saying?

22 A. No. I'm saying that at least a thousand shells fell on the

23 hospital every day. In general terms, Vukovar was shelled for three

24 months without any interruptions, with some breaks from 11.00 in the

25 evening until 5.00 or 6.00 in the morning when shells did not fall

Page 2801

1 name? - was the oldest Vlaho's nephew. They were both drivers.

2 Marko Vlaho was the driver who was taken out on the night when

3 Captain Sasa entered the hospital.

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gillett, the way you phrased the question at

5 67, 8, you say:

6 "In relation to these people ..."

7 When I go to the previous question I would think that this is

8 about those Serb people referred to as the fifth column, but I think they

9 are Croats, aren't they?

10 MR. GILLETT: Indeed. That was not my intention to link it to

11 the previous question.

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.

13 MR. GILLETT: And that was my final question on re-direct. Thank

14 you, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.

16 Questioned by the Court:

17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a question for

18 you. I'm referring to the transcript page 62, mainly page 62. You spoke

19 about the buses who took the hospital staff from the Vukovar Hospital to

20 the barracks - that's the word in English, I believe. And 25 people from

21 your bus returned from the barracks to the hospital because, according to

22 you, according to your testimony, there were some Serb employees who

23 could guarantee that those people, I believe that they were Croats, had

24 not been carrying weapons.

25 My question is this: Are you saying that the only reason why a

Page 2802

1 Croat member of hospital staff was taken to the barracks and then from

2 there was returned to the hospital was a guarantee provided by a Serb

3 member of hospital staff that that Croat had not been carrying arms? Is

4 that the only reason? Was there any other reason?

5 A. Partly. I don't think that you understood me properly. First of

6 all, those were hospital staff members who were returned because

7 Major Sljivancanin received a list, and those were not all people from my

8 bus. They were gathered from all of the buses. There were five or

9 six buses. The high-ranking military officer called our names and we

10 came from all the buses, some 25 or 30 of us. And then when we arrived

11 in front of the hospital, then our colleagues, local Serbs, had to

12 guarantee that we had not been carrying arms. That's how it happened.

13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. I thank you. Can we

14 say that, for example, if a Croat had a Serb wife that guarantees were

15 understood? Was it automatic? Could a Serbian wife guarantee that her

16 Croatian husband did not carry arms?

17 A. Yes, it was automatic. If the wife guaranteed for him, he would

18 be set free. But there were also Serbian doctors. For example, a

19 pharmacist provided guarantees for me and for my brother. She was a Serb

20 and she guaranteed for the two [as interpreted] of us.

21 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank you

22 for your clarifications regarding guarantees.

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry --

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I noted just one error in transcript. The

Page 2803

1 witness said that three persons, the pharmacist guarantees for three

2 persons, not for two.

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Did you mention three persons? Did you mention

4 three persons, Mr. Witness? Could you repeat, please?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mrs. Bosnic, who was the head of

6 our hospital pharmacy, was a Serb. We were on very good terms. We

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted). She

9 guaranteed for the three of us.

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Sorry about that, but this will have to be

11 redacted. I should have asked for private session.

12 If that is all -- Mr. Gillett.

13 MR. GILLETT: Just a quick technical matter to hopefully help

14 with the -- with the associated exhibits there was a video-clip and the

15 65 ter number should be 4798.2. It was not one that we saw in court

16 today, but it was associated with the statement. And also, there is a

17 list uploaded in e-court which links the numbers of the coloured photos

18 that are easier to see with the black and white photos which are attached

19 to the statement, and we've put that as 3258.2. And so if they could be

20 admitted along with the statements, I believe it would assist when it

21 comes to analysing this material.

22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Isn't that a rather complicated way of getting

23 this straight, Mr. Gillett? Wouldn't it be easier if you would tender

24 again the statement with coloured photos annexed to it rather than make

25 all these loops?