130412ED

Page 3878

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: I would remind you that you are still under oath.

2 Ms. Biersay, please proceed.

3 WITNESS: HICHAM MALLA [Resumed]

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour. Excuse me.

6 Examination by Ms. Biersay: [Continued]

7 Q. Good morning, Dr. Malla.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. Are you comfortable where you are?

10 A. Yes, I am.

11 Q. I'd like to continue from our discussion yesterday, and I'd like

12 to ask you about what medical supplies you had access to while you were

13 in the Stajicevo detention camp.

14 A. I had my own medical bag. My two paramedics also had two

15 satchels with drugs which I had selected while I was in the shelter in

16 the Borovo factory. When we were told that we would be let go to

17 Vinkovci, that's the drugs that I took and those were the only drugs that

18 we had in the camp.

19 Q. Regarding Vinkovci, you said that you were told that you would be

20 going to Vinkovci. When you were told that?

21 A. The night before the surrender. We were told that it had been

22 agreed that the children, the women, and the seriously sick and injured

23 would be allowed to go to Vinkovci; whereas the remainder of the people

24 would be detained.

25 Q. While you were in the Stajicevo camp, did you ask for additional

Page 3879

1 supplies from the commanders of the camp?

2 A. Every day -- or, rather, every morning

3 Lieutenant-Colonel Zivanovic asked me if I needed something, and I told

4 him yes. I made a list. I gave it to him. And I waited for a couple of

5 days, three days. Every day he asked the same thing, every day I gave

6 him a list. The third day I asked him when the drugs would be

7 forthcoming, and he said it wasn't easy because he was handing the list

8 over the Serbian Red Cross. The Serbian Red Cross, in its turn, would

9 give it to the International Red Cross and waiting for a donation, and

10 then when that donation arrived we would be provided with drugs. And the

11 chain would be the same. The International Red Cross would give it to

12 the Serbian Red Cross and then the Serbian Red Cross would give it to the

13 camp. The procedure was the same in the detention camp. Every day I was

14 asked the same question, every day my answer was the same, and nothing

15 came out of it.

16 Q. When you say "every day my answer was the same," did you mean the

17 answer that you received was the same?

18 A. No. The answer was that we would be provided with drugs when

19 they were provided to the Serbian cross from the International Red Cross,

20 and nothing came out of it. We never received anything.

21 Q. Who is Ivan Kunac?

22 A. He was a detainee. Unfortunately, he died in the camp as a

23 result of the interrogation. He was beaten until he fainted, and then in

24 the evening they brought him back to the camp after having been

25 interrogated, and the following morning we were told that he got

Page 3880

1 seriously ill, and then Dr. Nadas went to examine him, and then he called

2 Dr. Emedi, who was a specialist. He was all covered in blood. And then

3 they asked the lieutenant-colonel to send him to a hospital, and then the

4 lieutenant-colonel said that a medical doctor would come to examine him.

5 This same afternoon a doctor came who introduced herself as a medical [as

6 interpreted] doctor, she examined him, and she said that he did not need

7 medical -- hospital treatment because he would recover. And she said

8 that she would return the following day to re-examine him. He died

9 during the night.

10 She returned the following evening and she thought that he was

11 dead, and her comment was, I did not think that he was in such a bad

12 condition. I'm really surprised to see that.

13 Q. You mentioned that it was in the evening after he had been

14 interrogated that --

15 A. Yes. But we didn't know how bad he was. They just left him

16 there. Nobody knew. The remainder of the detainees were asleep.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The lady who came to

18 examine was a "military doctor," not a "medical doctor."

19 MS. BIERSAY:

20 Q. Dr. Malla, at what times of the day would you see prisoners who

21 had been injured during interrogations?

22 A. Mostly in the evening after interrogations. When they returned,

23 they sought my attention, and I attended to them and I helped them as

24 much as I could.

25 Q. Could injured prisoners walk up to you freely and ask for medical

Page 3881

1 treatment?

2 A. No. A guard would come to fetch us and escort us to the injured

3 person or, alternatively, that injured people would be brought to us. We

4 were not allowed to walk freely around the camp.

5 MS. BIERSAY: Turning now to tab 36, which is annotated 65 ter

6 number 2410.2. If possible, I'd like to give a hard copy of the document

7 to the witness because it contains some colouring on it and it takes a

8 while for it to load in e-court. Thank you.

9 If we could turn to the first page of this document.

10 Q. And Dr. Malla, directing your attention to the document you have

11 before you, do you recognise it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what do you recognise it to be?

14 A. The names of those people who were detained in Stajicevo.

15 Q. And did you go through this 23-page document and highlight the

16 names of those people you recognise as being at Stajicevo?

17 A. Yes. And you can see my signature there.

18 Q. And you signed each page of this document?

19 A. Yes, I signed every page and I put a date on the document.

20 MS. BIERSAY: At this time we'd ask for the admission of

21 65 ter number 2410.2.

22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1516, Your Honours. Thank you.

24 MS. BIERSAY:

25 Q. Regarding the highlights that you made, Dr. Malla, these names,

Page 3882

1 are there -- do you know if these people are Serbs or non-Serbs, the ones

2 that you've highlighted?

3 A. Among them there are people who are of Serb ethnicity and those

4 who are not.

5 Q. And do you recall approximately how many Serb names you

6 highlighted?

7 A. Perhaps three or four, approximately.

8 Q. And the other names, were they all non-Serbs?

9 A. Yes. Muslims, Croats, Hungarians, Ruthenians.

10 Q. Directing your attention to page 9 to the name Jeftic that's

11 highlighted --

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay, before we go into the details, could

13 you ask the witness, please, how many in total are highlighted so that we

14 have an idea of proportions between Serbs and non-Serbs.

15 MS. BIERSAY:

16 Q. Dr. Malla, do you recall how many names total you highlighted in

17 the document, or would you need time to count them?

18 A. I did not count them initially, so if you want me to count them,

19 that's the only way I can do it.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: An approximate figure, Dr. Malla? Because we

21 don't have the document in front of us. We just have one page. So do we

22 have ten highlighted names or a hundred? I mean, it's 23 pages long.

23 MS. BIERSAY: I understand, Your Honour.

24 Q. Turning to page 1. Let's go to page 1, Dr. Malla.

25 A. Yes.

Page 3883

1 Q. And looking at those names, would you agree that there are five

2 names highlighted on that page?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And on the next page?

5 A. Six.

6 Q. And on the next page?

7 A. Five.

8 Q. And on the next?

9 A. Four.

10 Q. And on page 5?

11 A. Three. Three.

12 Q. And on page 6?

13 A. Five.

14 Q. On page 7?

15 A. Three.

16 Q. And on page 8?

17 A. None.

18 Q. And on page 9?

19 A. Four.

20 Q. And staying on page 9, the very first highlight, the name Jeftic,

21 what is the ethnicity or nationality of that person?

22 A. Serb.

23 Q. And on page 10?

24 A. Three.

25 Q. Page 11?

Page 3884

1 A. Five.

2 Q. And directing your attention, if we could stay on page 11 for a

3 minute, do you recognise the name of a Serb person on that page?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And whose name is that?

6 A. Dr. Nenad Kuljic.

7 Q. And page 12?

8 A. Seven.

9 Q. And is your name on that page?

10 A. Unfortunately it is.

11 Q. And page 13?

12 A. Seven.

13 Q. On page 14?

14 A. Three.

15 Q. On page 15?

16 A. Four.

17 Q. Before we move from that, the name Nadas on that page - you

18 mentioned the name Nadas several times during your testimony - is that

19 the same person?

20 A. Yes, that's Dr. Radislav Nadas, who was a Jew.

21 Q. On page 16?

22 A. One.

23 Q. On page 17?

24 A. Three.

25 Q. On page 18?

Page 3885

1 A. Four.

2 Q. On page 19?

3 A. Five.

4 Q. 20?

5 A. Four.

6 Q. 21?

7 A. Four.

8 Q. The name Turkalj on page 21?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was that person ever injured at the camp?

11 A. Yes. He was shot at. We could not treat him. We couldn't treat

12 his wounds, so he was taken to hospital. Three days later we asked after

13 him and we were told that unfortunately he had died. When I was leaving

14 the camp during the second exchange of the detainees, a detainee from

15 Mitrovica told me that person is alive. He's still in the camp. And as

16 for us who were in Stajicevo, they lied to us that he had died.

17 Q. On page 22, Dr. Malla?

18 A. Four.

19 Q. And finally on page 23?

20 A. One.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 Dr. Malla, when did the International Red Cross come to the

23 Stajicevo camp?

24 A. On the 2nd of December.

25 Q. And how long had you been in the camp by that point?

Page 3886

1 A. Twelve days.

2 Q. In the days before the Red Cross came to the camp, did you notice

3 any changes in the conditions of the camp?

4 A. One day, three days earlier, around the 7th December, was the

5 first time when a water tap was installed in the camp. And on the tenth

6 or the eleventh day, we heard that something was happening outside the

7 barn and we learned that they had put up a fence and that they had

8 installed a field toilet.

9 Q. In the --

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay, unless --

11 MS. BIERSAY: Is it about the date, Your Honour?

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's about the timing --

13 MS. BIERSAY: Yes. Yes [overlapping speakers]

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Three days before and then the 7 December.

15 MS. BIERSAY: Right. Right.

16 Q. Dr. Malla, you said that the International Red Cross came on the

17 2nd of December, and in the translation that we have it says that three

18 days before on the 7th of December the changes started happening.

19 A. Yes. Water arrived and nothing else. And then -- and then on

20 either the tenth or the eleventh there was some works going on. We

21 didn't know what was going on. We were not allowed to even peek. And

22 then later we learned that they had put up a fence and that they had

23 installed a latrine in the compound.

24 Q. Dr. Malla when did -- I apologise for interrupting, I'm still

25 trying to work on the approximate dates that these events happened. You

Page 3887

1 said that the Red Cross came on the 2nd of December; right? So

2 December 2. And you said the changes started before. But the dates that

3 you're giving us, the 10th and the 11th, they're after the

4 2nd of December.

5 A. No. Oh, that was on the tenth or eleventh day our stay in the

6 camp. That's how I'm counting the days. On the seventh day of our stay

7 in the camp at the request of us, doctors who work there, who dressed

8 people's wounds, who administered therapies, we had not washed our hands

9 for seven days because there was no water. There was just provisions to

10 have a glass of water, but no water to wash. So at our request, the

11 lieutenant-colonel installed a water facility on the seventh day of our

12 stay, and that was the first time I could wash my hands. On the 30th of

13 November work started outdoors there. We only heard that. And then

14 somebody opened the door and said the Red Cross was coming and they

15 allowed us to go out. And that was the first time that we were allowed

16 to go out. That was the first time we saw the latrine and that was the

17 first time we could walk a bit, and that was the first time when we had a

18 hot meal. The first time ever since we had been brought to the camp.

19 And those changes were introduced only for the sake of the

20 Red Cross. If they had not arrived, maybe we would have continued

21 relieving ourselves by the wall. Maybe we would have been eating cold

22 and meager meals for a number of days to follow.

23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Malla, could you please - and it's just a

24 last clarification - could you please focus on the dates and the days,

25 not go into what exactly -- what happened. But in the record now it is

Page 3888

1 said -- your testimony is that on the 2nd of December the Red Cross

2 arrived, and then three days earlier - that is three days before the 2nd

3 - and then the record says, and that's what I want to have right, around

4 the 7th December. And with your explanation, I now understand that you

5 meant to say around the seventh day we were in the camp. That's the day

6 that you got a water tap installed; right?

7 So we have 2nd of December, three days before, and three days

8 before is the seventh day of your stay in the camp; is that correct?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not correct. I was in the camp for

10 12 days. On the seventh day of my stay we got water, and on the ninth

11 day of my stay the works started outside, on the ninth, tenth, and

12 eleventh day of my stay. And then on the twelfth day of my stay, the

13 Red Cross arrived. And on day nine, ten, eleven, we only heard that

14 things were happening outside, and we didn't know what that was until the

15 day we were allowed to go out and then we realised that a fence had been

16 put up, that there was a latrine, and that's when we realised what the

17 racket was all about.

18 JUDGE DELVOIE: I think now the time-line is clear, Dr. Malla.

19 Thank you very much.

20 Please proceed, Ms. Biersay.

21 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

23 MS. BIERSAY:

24 Q. You described the latrine being built in the few days before the

25 Red Cross came. Was there ever a time before the Red Cross came when a

Page 3889

1 prisoner complained about having to relieve himself inside the barn

2 itself?

3 A. We all needed that from the first day, me too. We all complained

4 because we were relieving ourselves in the same place where we were

5 eating and sitting and everything, and it's really a stroke of luck that

6 in those ten days there were no outbreaks of diseases.

7 Q. Did anyone ask to be able to go outside to relieve himself?

8 A. Yes. I think on the third day of our arrival there, a man

9 gathered his courage and he asked the guard, he told him that he had to

10 relieve himself, and then this guard asks someone, I don't know, a

11 superior of his, a military superior, what to do, and then they let him

12 go out but he was escorted by three guards and he was taken outside into

13 the dark. While he was relieving himself, there were these three

14 standing there with their automatic rifles pointed at him. And then when

15 he was done they started abusing him verbally and beating him, and

16 finally he did not manage to relieve himself all the way. And then when

17 he returned, when they took him back, no one thought of asking to be

18 taken outside to be allowed to relieve himself.

19 Q. You described to the Trial Chamber just now about the quality of

20 the food you had in the camp before the Red Cross came. Could you give

21 the Trial Chamber an idea of how much you had to eat each day before the

22 Red Cross came?

23 A. On the 19th we were captured and that whole day until the

24 evening, including the evening, we didn't get anything. On the 20th in

25 the morning, Dr. Emedi and I asked the colonel to provide us some food

Page 3890

1 because there were among the detainees some 20 or so men who were

2 diabetics, and the colonel asked some -- around 14 loaves of bread and

3 some lettuce. So these diabetics ate and we did too. Now, the second

4 day no one got any food. The third day, we each received a piece of

5 bread and a triangle, a piece of cheese. It's a small piece of cheese.

6 There would be six of those triangles in a box.

7 Now, on the second or third day of our stay in the camp, we

8 received in the evening a piece of bread, a hotdog that would be divided

9 into three pieces so that each detainee would only get a third of that

10 hotdog, and they claimed that they had made tea but it was more water

11 than tea. There was no sugar because there wasn't enough for everyone so

12 that only the first people who got the tea actually got something, all

13 the rest we just got some water.

14 So this is how it went on for days. One day we would get cheese,

15 the next day the hotdogs, until the second when, for the first time, they

16 made some beans. That's when the Red Cross arrived and that's when we

17 had the hot meal.

18 Q. What effect did this -- the amount of food that you had, what

19 effect did that have on your weight in those 12 days?

20 A. Well, we all lost weight. We were just provided with enough food

21 not to die, so it was really the minimum that you could really survive

22 on.

23 Q. When were you finally released from Stajicevo camp? What date?

24 A. On the 2nd of December around 7.00 p.m.

25 Q. Is that the same day that the Red Cross came?

Page 3891

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And did they have a role in your being released that day?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How many other people were released with you at the same time?

5 A. Dr. Nadas and myself, just the two of us.

6 Q. And why the -- Dr. Nadas who you said was Jewish and you being

7 born in Syria, why were the two of you released?

8 A. Lieutenant-Colonel Zivanovic, on the fourth or fifth day of our

9 arrival at the camp, he told me personally that the Syrian government had

10 contacted the Serbian government in relation to me and that there were

11 talks going on and that I would be certainly be released. Dr. Nadas told

12 him -- about Dr. Nadas, he was told that the Jewish organisation from

13 America requested that he be released.

14 Now, when the Red Cross, the International Red Cross,

15 representatives arrived, Lieutenant-Colonel Zivanovic wanted to show-off.

16 He would say, Well, yes, true, this is a camp. There aren't any sanitary

17 facilities, but we do have doctors. So he called the two of us and then

18 I presented myself. I said what my name was. And then they were

19 wondering how it was that I was there because I was Syrian, and he said

20 that it was an error and they were working on it and they would release

21 him. Then came Dr. Nadas, he also said that he was Jewish, and so the

22 Red Cross then interceded and they intervened and they wanted to work out

23 our release.

24 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honours, I'm not sure how much time I have

25 left, but with the leave of the Court I'd like permission just to

Page 3892

1 continue for another ten minutes and then I'd be finished with my

2 questioning of Dr. Malla, if that's okay.

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please continue, Ms. Biersay. It's okay.

6 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Dr. Malla, at any time during your detention at the Stajicevo

8 camp, were you ever formally charged with a crime?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And during your 12 days there, were any of the other prisoners in

11 the barn with you ever charged with a crime?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You describe the physical effects of the camp conditions as far

14 as the weight is concerned. What other physical effects stemmed from the

15 conditions in the camp for you personally?

16 A. Well, physical consequences other than the beating that I was

17 exposed to, I don't know what else I could say. I mean, personally I

18 really cannot understand this. There were five of us who were doctors:

19 Dr. Emedi was a Ruthenian; Dr. Nadas was Jewish; Dr. Karnas, Croatian;

20 Dr. Kuljic, a Serb; and I was a Syrian. We were all treated the same

21 way. We were beaten, we were slapped, and I can't really understand

22 that. We stayed there because we wanted to do our job, and for

23 humanitarian reasons we wanted to assist people. Not one of us was a

24 soldier or in any way involved in any of this. We were all treated the

25 same way.

Page 3893

1 Q. I understand.

2 A. Violence was meted out on us. We weren't new in Vukovar or

3 Borovo. We had all been born there, except me, who had lived there from

4 some ten years earlier. So none of us doctors would be suspicious in any

5 way or suspect in any way as being mercenaries or something. We were

6 just doing humanitarian work and for that we were repaid in that way.

7 Q. After you were released, what happened to your health one week

8 later?

9 A. I beg your pardon?

10 Q. One week after you left the camp, did you have any kind of issues

11 with your health?

12 A. Yes. A week after I was released, a week after the camp I

13 arrived in Zagreb, and then I had a fit. I couldn't breathe. I was

14 taken to the hospital and I was told that I suffered from very bad

15 bronchitis, through time this turned into an asthma. And it was

16 nonspecific asthma; in other words, it was caused by circumstances.

17 Because I had slept just in a shirt there, there was nothing to cover

18 myself. It was minus 20 degrees outside. There was no heating or

19 anything. And I kept going in and out in order to assist patients, and

20 that probably had an effect on my health. As a result and because of the

21 injuries that I had sustained, I retired.

22 Q. When did you retire?

23 A. In 1993. For almost two years I treated patients.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: For almost two years

25 I had undergone treatment.

Page 3894

1 MS. BIERSAY:

2 Q. And the two years during which you had treatment, what was the

3 treatment for?

4 A. Well, first I was operated on because the shrapnel had to be

5 taken out, then I had these breathing problems.

6 Q. Did they manage to remove all the shrapnel?

7 A. No. After the three operations I still have some shrapnel

8 fragments, I believe seven fragments or so.

9 Q. Did those fragments have an effect on metal detectors when you

10 had to go through them?

11 A. Not anymore. But at first when I went to Zagreb and I travelled

12 by plane, it happened. But not anymore because right now they are very

13 deeply embedded and they are encapsulated. They didn't take them out

14 because it would be dangerous. It would be a bigger threat to take them

15 out rather than leave them where they are.

16 Q. And finally, Dr. Malla, you talked about these physical effects.

17 What psychological effects did you notice on yourself and in the other

18 prisoners who were in the camp at Stajicevo?

19 A. Well, I see myself as a doctor, primarily. For 1 00 days of the

20 encirclement of the Borovo settlement, the shelling, the daily shelling,

21 all the people who were killed in Borovo settlement, they were

22 neighbours. They were workers where I worked. They were citizens like I

23 was. I could -- there were many who died that I couldn't help. We had

24 to bury them in the backyards, as it were, of their homes because would

25 he couldn't reach the cemetery.

Page 3895

1 Now, for the last -- at the last month we had to drink

2 rain-water. So you can imagine what kind of both physical and mental

3 effect this would have on us.

4 Q. And as far as the stay in the detention in the Stajicevo camp

5 itself, how did prisoners react to being in the camp and being under the

6 conditions that you were in?

7 A. Well, they couldn't protest. They were regularly beaten,

8 insulted, threatened, and if they tried to protest they would probably be

9 killed.

10 If you allow me, I would like to say something. If the

11 Trial Chamber would allow me, I would like to say something.

12 Q. I will have to confer with the Trial Chamber.

13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please go --

14 MS. BIERSAY:

15 Q. Yes, Dr. Malla.

16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please go ahead, Dr. Malla.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, to this day I cannot

18 understand the behaviour of those people. I cannot understand the way we

19 were treated, at least us, the medical staff.

20 While I was in Borovo Naselje I took care of an old man who was

21 80 years old. He came to me. He was wounded. I gave him all the

22 medical attention he needed. I fed him for over two and a half months

23 and cared for him, and he got well. Now his family, his son, his nephew,

24 they knew of this and they would not help me. That person was the uncle

25 of Mr. Goran Hadzic. That man was the father of Dr. Mladen Hadzic, who

Page 3896

1 was the minister of health.

2 Everyone knew that I was in a camp. In Belgrade my niece told

3 me, and that -- his niece told me that she was crying and telling them

4 they should help me.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last

6 sentence.

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Malla, could you repeat the last sentence for

8 the interpreters, please.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, to put me in the camp, was

10 that a thank you for what I had done for their father and their uncle?

11 And both of them -- one of them was the prime minister and the other was

12 the minister of health. I helped their father and I cared for him. For

13 two and a half months I fed him. And they knew me very well. Just --

14 and they knew where I was, just like Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic knew that I

15 was in a camp. I am not a Croat. I'm a doctor from Syria. I was never

16 involved in politics and I was never interested in politics.

17 That is what hurts. That is the psychological effect. That's

18 the answer to your question.

19 MS. BIERSAY: Nothing further at this time, Your Honours. Thank

20 you.

21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

22 Cross-examination.

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Malla. My name is

Page 3897

1 Zoran Zivanovic and I am the Defence counsel for Goran Hadzic in these

2 proceedings.

3 A. Good morning.

4 Q. First of all, let me ask you this: Yesterday you testified and

5 you told us how many doctors there were in Borovo Naselje, that's on

6 page 3847 of the transcript, where you said that at first there were

7 eight - at least that's what is reflected in the transcript - and that

8 later on there were 80.

9 A. No, 18.

10 Q. Yes, that's correct. Now, tell us, please, in the

11 former Yugoslavia you lived from 1964; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You had occasion to meet a lot of people, not only in

14 Borovo Naselje where you resided, but also in Vukovar and its

15 surroundings?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Yesterday you said that, among other things, you worked as a

18 doctor of a sports club which was called -- which is called Sindjelic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When was that? Could you tell me?

21 A. Well, from 1983 onwards.

22 Q. Could you tell me, please, what that means, Sindjelic?

23 A. I don't really know. I heard there -- I heard them singing

24 something when there were these celebrations. That's all I know about

25 it. But I know there was a song by that name or something.

Page 3898

1 Q. Among other things, you said yesterday that you knew well the

2 late Slavko Dokmanovic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you please explain why you had difficulty recalling his

5 first name?

6 A. What do you mean? If you mean that first moment where I couldn't

7 recall his name, well, I was just blocked at that moment, and I did

8 recall it later on and I did mention it. I also -- I could recall the

9 name of his brother.

10 Q. You said, among other things -- or, do you know where he worked?

11 A. In Vupik.

12 Q. You said that he was involved, that he was a politician.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you know him at the time when he was the politician?

15 A. Well, when I met him, I know that he was -- I met him as the

16 president of this club. As a foreigner I was never involved in politics.

17 All I knew was that he was a engineer and that he worked for Vupik, and I

18 never discussed politics with him or parties, political parties, or

19 anything of that sort.

20 Q. When you say that you knew that he was an engineer, do you know

21 what he was an engineer of?

22 A. He was an agronomer or an agronomist. Well, if he worked for

23 Vupik then you know what he must be.

24 Q. Tell me, please, if you can -- or, let me rephrase that. Can you

25 tell us how long the situation was stable in Croatia, in your assessment?

Page 3899

1 You arrived there in 1964. You remain there to this day. When did this

2 situation begin to destabilise in Croatia, if we could put it that way?

3 A. Well, I have to repeat what I said before. I am a doctor. I did

4 not get involved in politics. I was a foreigner. I could not even vote,

5 nor could I be elected. So I didn't think of these things.

6 Q. Does that mean that until weapons were used, you didn't really

7 sense that there was any kind of tension in Vukovar or Borovo Naselje

8 that could turn much worse?

9 A. Well, yes, there were tensions, not just on the eve of the war,

10 also earlier on. In 1984, 1985, during every celebration at the club,

11 towards the end they would sing nationalist songs. They wouldn't sing

12 Yugoslav songs. They would start singing, "Who is singing, who is lying

13 that Serbia is small?" That's not a Yugoslav song. That's a nationalist

14 song. I knew this, although I was a foreigner, so I was not really

15 bothered by it, but there were tensions. When the HDZ won, the

16 Communists lost power and nationalists came to power on both sides.

17 That's when the tensions began and increased. There were tensions among

18 the politicians. But the people were the ones who suffered, the regular

19 folk.

20 Q. Thank you. I would just like to clarify your answer. So there

21 were tensions when this song was sung at the celebration of the club?

22 A. Well, not just one song, the Sindjelic song, that was the first

23 time I heard it, but I wasn't bothered by it. They would sing. I have

24 sat there. Maybe I even joined in. I didn't really care about that.

25 This was a celebration. We were celebrating our victory. So there were

Page 3900

1 these things, so I'm sure there was this on the other side, too, that

2 they sang Ustasha songs. However, where I lived, in Borovo Naselje - and

3 that's what I'm talking about - most of my friends were Serbs, and you --

4 I couldn't choose them, you know. But friends you can choose. You don't

5 choose acquaintances but you do choose friends, and that's what's so

6 painful, that I was betrayed by friends.

7 A judge, Rade Kojic, he was the best friend I had. And also our

8 families were friends. And three days before he went to Borovo Naselje,

9 he spent the night in my house, and later on he never offered to help nor

10 did he ask about me. And for ten years prior to that, we were friends.

11 We shared food. We shared houses. So for them I was an Ustasha and that

12 was a thank you to me. Those were -- that's true friendship?

13 Q. Thank you for this answer. Let's be precise about one thing.

14 You said that songs were sung at club celebrations. Was that on the club

15 premises?

16 A. Yes, on the club premises.

17 Q. How many people were there, approximately?

18 A. The players, at least 11 players, some with wives, some with

19 mothers, the club management, there was my wife, Slavko's wife as well,

20 Milenko who was the president of the hunter's society and his wife. It

21 was a family celebration. We all had our families with us.

22 Q. Thank you. Since you put this answer within the context of my

23 question, and the question was about the time when tensions started

24 emerging in Croatia, Vukovar and Borovo Selo, would you say that singing

25 among the 30 or 50 people in the club caused the tensions in Croatia?

Page 3901

1 A. That club was just one segment. There was another segment in

2 another village or in the next village, and all of a sudden those small

3 segments amount to a lot, because this -- that was just a circle that I

4 was in. I don't know about the others. I wasn't there. But I suppose

5 the situation was the same.

6 Q. In any case, this was the only place where you heard that, in

7 that club?

8 A. Yes, yes. I was a doctor in other clubs as well, but that club

9 was a Serb club and the village was a Serb village. The rest of the

10 clubs were different. There was the Borovo cyclist club, the weight

11 lifters Borovo, the karate club Borovo, and their members were from

12 Borovo, and Borovo was the sponsor of all of those teams.

13 Q. To my earlier question you answered that certain tensions started

14 emerging after the HDZ won the elections in Croatia. Why would you say

15 that the HDZ's victory caused those tensions?

16 A. The HDZ was a nationalist party and the Serbs just didn't like

17 that. There were nationalist parties in Serbia as well. And that's how

18 things happened. It was a power struggle.

19 Q. You said that you had a lot of Serb friends. Did they tell you

20 why they were bothered by the HDZ's victory? Why they did not like the

21 whole situation?

22 A. Let me tell you. Let me explain in a different way. All of my

23 friends, the Serbs who had been members of the League of Communists, over

24 night transformed from members of the League of Communists into

25 ultranationalists. They no longer sang Yugoslav songs. They started

Page 3902

1 singing nationalist songs all of a sudden over night. I just cannot

2 comprehend that. Either they were false communists or they became false

3 nationalists, because you cannot transform yourself within a day or even

4 seven days into something completely different.

5 For example, Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic, he was also a member of the

6 League of Communists and he held high positions in the

7 League of Communists. He would not have become president of the

8 executive council or the president of the city board if he hasn't been a

9 communist. And all of a sudden - all of a sudden - he started rooting

10 for the Serbs. He forgot about Yugoslavia. He became a fervent Serb.

11 And as an engineer he started fighting. He had a different agenda, and I

12 did not understand that.

13 How did they travel that journey, from being members of the

14 League of Communists to being nationalists? I apologise. Not only him

15 and not only Serbs. The same thing happened in Croatia. There were

16 Croatian members of the League of Communists who turned coat over night

17 and they became Croatian nationalists.

18 Q. How did you learn that those people became turncoats over night

19 and that they became nationalists, for example, the Serbs that you knew?

20 What's the source of your information?

21 A. Radio, television, speeches were delivered. They were actively

22 working on that.

23 Q. How many of your friends expressed such positions on radio and

24 television?

25 A. Dokmanovic, for example, did he deliver speeches? Yes. After

Page 3903

1 the fall of Vukovar or the liberation of Vukovar, call it what you want,

2 was he the mayor of Vukovar? Yes, he was. During the communist era he

3 also occupied a very prominent position.

4 Q. Do you know that Slavko Dokmanovic, who had been a member of the

5 League of Communists and later on that party was renamed into the

6 Party for Democratic Changes under the leadership of Ivica Racan, do you

7 know that that party advocated the stay in Yugoslavia?

8 A. Those were communists, I know, yes. But they were a minority in

9 Belgrade and in Zagreb. The HDZ was power in Croatia and another

10 nationalist party was in power in Serbia.

11 Q. And do you know that at the time Dokmanovic was a member of that

12 party?

13 A. No, I don't know that.

14 Q. You said that he was the mayor of Vukovar for a while. Do you

15 know when that was?

16 A. After the fall of Vukovar.

17 Q. And before the fall of Vukovar?

18 A. While I was still in touch with him, I didn't know what was his

19 political affiliation. I've told you, we were friends. If we got

20 together, we talked about the players, the club, the injuries, we had a

21 drink together, we shared a bite. I was never involved in politics.

22 Q. I understand that you were not involved in politics, but I see

23 that you are privy to a lot of information concerning politics, and

24 you've just shared it with us.

25 A. That's the information that I learned subsequently from the

Page 3904

1 radio, television, and newspapers. But while I was there, while I worked

2 there, I was not involved in politics. I did not have the right to be

3 involved in politics. As a foreigner who did not have the Croatian

4 citizenship, I could not be a member of any party. I was not allowed to

5 be involved in politics even if I wanted to.

6 Q. In other words, you followed political life only through the

7 media?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you didn't get involved in any of the developments that were

10 unfolding there at that time, and I mean the tensions between, for

11 example, those parties, the HDZ on the one side, the League of Communists

12 or the Party for Democratic Changes, as it was later known, the

13 Serbian Democratic Party, and so on and so forth? You didn't get

14 involved in that?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And now just something else I would like to hear from you. At

17 the beginning of those conflicts, as it were, did you hear that there

18 were people, that there were Serbs who were killed in Borovo Naselje?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. For example in the summer of 1991?

21 A. If you have the information, you will know that I was a resident

22 in Zagreb and I would come to Borovo only on weekends, on Friday evening

23 to see my wife and children, and on Sunday evening I would return to

24 Zagreb. I was a resident in occupation medicine at that time.

25 Q. When was that? When were you absent from Vukovar, i.e., from

Page 3905

1 Borovo Naselje for that reason?

2 A. In 1988, for three years I was a resident in Zagreb, in Osijek,

3 and I would be at home only on weekends and for summer holidays when I

4 would take my family to the coast.

5 Q. And when you did arrive to see your family, you would also attend

6 football games, you would examine the players?

7 A. No. When I became a resident I no longer worked for any of the

8 clubs or teams. I couldn't.

9 Q. So whatever you have just told us about your contacts with the

10 football team and other athletes stopped in 1988?

11 A. Yes, but I was still friends with those people. I could no

12 longer work for them, but I was still friends with them.

13 Q. And when did you complete your residency? When did you return to

14 Borovo Naselje or to Vukovar?

15 A. Around the 1st of July because I enrolled at the post-graduate

16 studies and I completed at the end of June, and I arrived in Borovo in

17 July.

18 Q. Did you perhaps know some of the residents of Borovo, one was

19 Dragan Mijatovic, the other was Stojan Stojanovic? Did you ever hear of

20 them?

21 A. I can't remember them.

22 Q. Did you perhaps know people from Borovo Naselje whose name --

23 names were Zdravko Komsic, Mirko Nujic, Stjepan Mackovic?

24 A. The names do ring a certain bell but I can't remember them.

25 First of all, let me explain one thing: I was a doctor. I was a GP in a

Page 3906

1 company that employed 20.000 people. I know many of the names. I know

2 many of the face, but very often I can't put the two together. I can't

3 recall everybody. I know my friends by name, but the others who were my

4 patients, I may recall their names but vaguely or I can't put their names

5 to their faces. They were my patients, they were not my friends.

6 Q. You said that you knew Dr. Mladen Hadzic; right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. From when?

9 A. From the moment I started working in Borovo. He was a

10 dermatologist there in Vukovar. I referred my patients to him. I had a

11 lot of patients with skin problems, allergies, I referred my patients to

12 him in those cases, and two or three occasions he came to the company as

13 a visiting doctor, and I knew him.

14 Q. When did you actually meet Dr. Hadzic? Do you remember the year?

15 A. As soon as I arrived. As soon as I started working. We were not

16 friends, we did not socialise, but we were colleagues and we had contacts

17 through our patients.

18 Q. Do you know where Dr. Hadzic lived? Where he resided?

19 A. No.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, I would like to ask the witness to

21 clarify when he started working. You said when I started working, "When

22 did you actually meet Dr. Hadzic? Do you remember the year?" When I

23 arrived, when I started working.

24 Is that 1991, July 1991?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, in 1982.

Page 3907

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: 1982. Thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not in 1992 but 1982.

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yeah, that's what I said.

4 Then one more clarification that I should -- I must find it.

5 Just one moment.

6 When you told us that you -- after you completed your residency,

7 you enrolled at the post-graduate studies that you completed at the end

8 of June. And then you came back to Vukovar around the 1st of July. That

9 would be 1991; is that right?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.

12 Sorry, Mr. Zivanovic. Please proceed.

13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Q. [Interpretation] When you say that you met Dr. Hadzic, do you

15 know where he worked?

16 A. No. Well, I referred my patients to him. I'm sure that he

17 worked either in Osijek or in Vukovar. I did not have any contacts with

18 him. I would give my patients referral notes and then they would go to

19 him, and then they brought back his papers.

20 Q. I am asking you this because I heard that he was the director of

21 all the outpatient clinics in Osijek?

22 A. He may have been a director but he was also a specialist. He was

23 a dermatologist and he saw patients. I don't know. I know that I

24 referred my patients to him, and when I did that I did not send them

25 specifically to him but to a dermatologist, but the findings that I then

Page 3908

1 received were signed by him.

2 Q. According to what I know, he lived in Tenja?

3 A. I don't know. I've told you I don't know. I didn't say that we

4 were friends, that I ever visited him. We were colleagues and I knew of

5 him. I knew about him through my patients.

6 Q. So you never had any direct contacts with him? You didn't

7 contact him either personally or by phone?

8 A. No, no.

9 Q. Well, the reason I ask this is because of the last portion of

10 your testimony where you said that you treated his father and, among

11 other things, you said that he was Goran Hadzic's uncle on the father

12 side.

13 A. Well, that's what I was told. I was told that by the daughter of

14 Dr. Hadzic after the camp when I was in Belgrade.

15 Q. Could you tell us what her name was?

16 A. I don't know. I was released from the camp. I went with

17 Dr. Nadas to sleep at his brother's place; his brother, Brane Nadas, who

18 had a company in Belgrade. And on the following day, he took us to his

19 company and he asked me, Well, do you want to call up Zagreb to find out

20 what was going on with your family? And I said, Yes. And there was a

21 young woman working there. She helped me get through the phone lines via

22 Bosnia to Zagreb, and I -- once the conversation -- I finished the

23 conversation, she asked me, Are you Dr. Hicham? And I said, Yes. And

24 then she started to cry and she thanked me, and she said, You saved my

25 grandfather. And then I said, Well, so he made it? Because before the

Page 3909

1 fall of Vukovar, on the 12th or 13th, I believe, he was on his bike

2 biking towards Borovo Selo. He said he could no longer stay there, he

3 couldn't survive, he had no food. And I told him, Old man, don't go. It

4 was dark, there was shooting. And I didn't see him after that.

5 This was the 11th. On the 12th of November he came to the

6 shelter because he heard that I was wounded, so he brought some tobacco,

7 pipe tobacco and cigarettes. He said, Cigarettes for your wife, and the

8 pipe -- the pipe tobacco for you. And then I told him that my wife had

9 been killed. He didn't know that. And every time -- because he would

10 come to the shelter to sleep there, I saw this one night that he wasn't

11 going away - it was already 11.00 - so I asked him, Do you want to sleep

12 here? And he said, No, but I want to talk to you. And then we talked

13 and he said he could no longer take it, that there was nothing to eat,

14 and that he was going to Borovo Selo. He took his bike, and I said, Why

15 don't you wait a little? It will be over soon. And I thought that I had

16 persuaded him.

17 But then I heard from his daughter that he had succeeded, that at

18 the -- on the outskirts of Borovo Selo there was an APC, that they let

19 him through, and he told me at the time that he had a granddaughter and

20 how he had been saved and so on. So this granddaughter thanked me, and

21 then I asked, Well, is he your father? And you can tell him that he

22 could have helped me while I was in the camp, because he knew that I was

23 in the camp and I was a doctor.

24 Now, this daughter, she wasn't working in her line of work. She

25 was helping out with this company, because I know that she had graduated

Page 3910

1 from a nursing school.

2 Q. Could you please clarify. Perhaps you said that, but I didn't

3 quite understand you: Where was this that Dr. Hadzic's daughter was

4 working when this occurred?

5 A. Brane Nadas from Vukovar, the brother of Dr. Nadas. Now, he

6 lived in Belgrade, so when we left the camp we went to see him in

7 Belgrade and we spent the night in his house. He had a company there and

8 this woman was working for him in the company.

9 Q. I see, thank you.

10 Now, you were in close touch with Dr. Hadzic's father. Did he

11 tell you what relationship he had with his son; in other words, with

12 Dr. Mladen Hadzic?

13 A. Let me say this: He did not tell me who he was and I did not ask

14 him. He came to see me - I remember this very well - he came early in

15 the morning, he came to the shelter, and he asked me whether I could see

16 him, and I said, Of course I can. The only thing that I saw - this was

17 wartime - this man came, he was dressed in a fine dark blue suit, and it

18 was my opinion --

19 Q. Doctor, I apologise. You have answered my question already.

20 There is no need to give us more details about this man.

21 A. Well, I just want to tell you that I learned who he was -- well,

22 I offered him food. He said he didn't have any food, and I told him,

23 Look, we have a shelter where I am. Do come over because you will be fed

24 every day. So on the first day he did get food. Now, on the second day,

25 the person who was in charge of the shelter, he said, Doctor, don't let

Page 3911

1 this man come anymore. And I said, Why not? He said, Well, do you know

2 who this man was? And then he told me who he was. And one of the cooks

3 complained why we were feeding him while his sons are shooting at us.

4 So I told them, First of all, this person is a patient of mine so

5 he must be given a meal, and I am entitled to one meal a day as your

6 doctor, so give him my meal. Now he -- when he came to see me, he

7 wouldn't even enter the shelter. He would stay outside on the steps and

8 he would eat his food there and he would leave because he was

9 uncomfortable.

10 Q. Can you please tell me just this - it may be unclear from

11 something you said - you said that he was Goran Hadzic's uncle. Does

12 that mean that their father's are brothers?

13 A. Well, Dr. Hadzic's daughter told me that Goran was her uncle.

14 Now, what kind of uncle, whether on the father's side or the mother's

15 side, I didn't ask that. She just said that Mr. Goran was her uncle.

16 Now, whether he was a close relative or a removed, once or twice removed,

17 I don't know.

18 Q. Doctor, the reason I'm asking this is that even their great,

19 great, great grandfathers weren't brothers, so that's why I'm asking you

20 whether you were told what kind of kin they were and how it was that he

21 could be Goran Hadzic's uncle.

22 A. Well, Dr. Hadzic's daughter told me that he was her uncle. I

23 didn't ask her about the details and I wasn't really interested.

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: If you would move to another topic, this would be

25 an appropriate time, Mr. Zivanovic. Thank you.

Page 3912

1 Dr. Malla, it's time for our first break. We'll come back at

2 11.00. The Court Usher will escort you out of the courtroom. Thank you

3 very much.

4 [The witness stands down]

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

8 JUDGE DELVOIE: The Trial Chamber received a Defence request

9 about the Orthodox Easter on the 6th of May, if I'm not mistaken. We

10 heard that OTP has no position on that request. We will grant that

11 request and sit that week on Friday instead of Monday. So that would be

12 10th of May or the 11th, but that same week instead of sitting Monday we

13 will sit Friday. Thank you.

14 [The witness takes the stand]

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, please proceed.

16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Malla, would you now take a look at a brief

18 video-clip; that's 4954.1.

19 [Video-clip played]

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: We did not receive the

21 transcript for this video-clip.

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, if we can stop here to provide the

23 interpreters with the transcript.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: We have the transcripts

25 now, thank you.

Page 3913

1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you. Thank you. We will start from the

2 beginning.

3 [Video-clip played]

4 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "I am Dr. Hicham Malla from

5 Borovo Naselje. I carried my working there during that time of war. One

6 could not think about the time. One had to work or not to work. Shells

7 were not limited to certain time-periods, to eight hours a day, and they

8 were not fired during the working hours only. No one was supposed to

9 work all the time. As long as there were patients -- as long as there

10 were -- when the first convoy arrived with the medical supplies, I

11 received a part of it. After that, I didn't get anything. The rest I

12 received from the guard, military police, people brought it from

13 [indiscernible]. That's how we used medical supplies. I think there is

14 not a single other war with so many violations as it was, because this

15 was a war fought by mortars. In the Second World War, one did not use

16 mortars as much as here. Here, one used shells, howitzers, mortars, and

17 you know what happens when a shell explodes into 3.000 shrapnel pieces.

18 I have been very long in Croatia, and I do not feel any different from

19 any other Croat. I participated in one civil war in Lebanon, and I knew

20 what would happen and how this war would be fought. I said at the health

21 centre in Borovo that if such a war would break out here, and yet none of

22 my colleagues believed me. But when the war started they fled and nobody

23 remained.

24 "It was already in May when I suggested that each shelter should

25 be adapted into a medical facility. I warned then that wounded people

Page 3914

1 would not even be able to cross the street, let alone come to a certain

2 place. They did not believe me. I organised a shelter where I was able

3 to do so, and ..."

4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Malla, you remember this interview that you gave?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I see that it is dated 18th of October, 1991. Is that when it

8 happened?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. What I am interested in is the last portion that we discussed

11 here and that we did not have information on before. The portion where

12 you said that you took part in the civil war in Lebanon.

13 A. As a doctor.

14 Q. Can you tell me when this was?

15 A. In 1979 through 1981, the end of 1981. I was in Syria with my

16 family, the entire family, and my sister lived in Lebanon. She was

17 married there and lived there. From Damascus it's some 60 kilometres

18 away. I went there to help people because of the war, and then I saw

19 what the fighting looked like. There was street fighting. There were

20 all kinds of militias. Wounded people would die because you couldn't

21 reach the hospital.

22 So I thought if the war broke out, we should have at least a

23 doctor and a nurse in every shelter and that we should do something about

24 it to help out. And this is what I told my director after the

25 2nd of May. I said that the situation didn't look good, and you probably

Page 3915

1 know what had happened elsewhere. But my director refused. He said,

2 No, if something does happen it will happen, and we'll be there then.

3 Q. Thank you. I understood from your evidence that you have been in

4 Croatia since 1964.

5 A. In 1979 I left my job in Zagreb. My parents were old at the

6 time. I am their oldest son. I was a doctor. They asked me to come to

7 work in Syria, and I was there until the end of 1981 and then I returned.

8 I couldn't stay there. I returned to Croatia. I started looking for a

9 job, and then for six months I worked in Prijedor. I was looking for a

10 better position. And then in 1982 I landed a job in Vukovar in the

11 Borovo factory.

12 Q. So from 1979 to 1981 you worked in Syria; right?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. When were you in Lebanon?

15 A. Well, I'm telling you, it was when I was living on the border

16 with Lebanon, because that war Lebanon had been going on for 15 years, so

17 I went there, to the front line to help the wounded.

18 Q. Can you please tell me, while you worked in Syria were you sent

19 to Lebanon to work there, or did you go there of your own volition?

20 A. I was not sent anywhere. I didn't have to work in Borovo. I was

21 a resident of Zagreb. I interrupted my residency, and I went there to

22 help the people with whom I lived. I was in Zagreb. I was a resident

23 for three years. I did not have to go back to Vukovar. There were a lot

24 of people who were residents in Zagreb, who hailed from Vukovar, and

25 didn't return to Vukovar. I wanted to go where I was most needed. Why

Page 3916

1 should I go there after the war and then have people asking me, Where

2 were you during the war when you were needed the most? I wanted to go

3 there when I was needed the most, during the war.

4 Q. Now you have told us two different things. While you were in

5 Lebanon were you paid?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You were a volunteer?

8 A. There were a lot of doctors all over the world who are

9 volunteers; for example, Medecins Sans Frontieres. It's humanitarian

10 work that they do.

11 Q. Were you a member of Medecins Sans Frontieres?

12 A. No, I was not.

13 Q. When you were in Lebanon, where did you stay?

14 A. I stayed with my sister who lived very close to the border. She

15 had a family there. She had a husband who hailed from Lebanon.

16 Q. And just one more thing, you have just told us that you

17 interrupted your residency. The way I understood your evidence was that

18 you returned to Vukovar on the 1st of July because you had completed your

19 residency?

20 A. No, I completed my post-graduate studies. As for my residence, I

21 had to complete practical work on the different wards. I completed my

22 residency after the war. I took all of my exams for the post-graduate

23 studies, and that's a normal educational cycle, from autumn to summer.

24 That's why I returned to Vukovar on the 1st of July. And as for my

25 residency, I did everything that was necessary to complete it but I did

Page 3917

1 it after the war.

2 Q. It arises from your statement that already in the month of May

3 you envisaged what kind of war would be waged in Croatia?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. And you did that owing to -- strike that. Tell me, how could you

6 know that there would be war in the month of May, and especially such a

7 terrible war?

8 A. I suppose you know what happened on the 2nd of May in

9 Borovo Selo. Wasn't there a massacre over there? Don't you know it?

10 There was a massacre. What else did one need? Twenty MUP members were

11 killed there on the 2nd of May, would you not call that war, or at least

12 a sign that there would be war?

13 Q. I apologise. You said on the 20th?

14 A. No, on the 2nd.

15 Q. I apologise. Let me just finish my question. Did you say that

16 20 MUP members were killed?

17 A. That's what I heard. Two police officers were taken prisoner and

18 the others came to liberate them, and that's what happened.

19 Q. What I'm asking you is this: How could you know on the

20 2nd of May? Because I don't see how ordinary people could foresee the

21 outcome, that there would be conflicts and armed conflicts.

22 A. If you had lived in Borovo Naselje and in Vukovar, you would have

23 known as well. There were barricades around every single village. On

24 every single road, there were roadblocks. There were weapons. It didn't

25 bode well, did it? Could you say that those were tell-tale signs of

Page 3918

1 peace?

2 Q. At that time a lot of political negotiations were going on,

3 although you said that you were not involved in politics, but you

4 followed the media. And I'm sure that you heard that there were talks

5 involving the Serbian side and the Croatian side and all the other

6 factors.

7 A. Yes, there were talks, there were cease-fires, and we heard it on

8 the radio, and at the same time there were shelling going on. One thing

9 was being said on the radio and the other thing was happening on the

10 ground. It was the lords of war who ran the war.

11 Q. You are talking about shelling but I believe there was no

12 shelling in the month of May?

13 A. No, there wasn't, but you asked me about politicians. This was

14 my example. We heard that there were talks, there were negotiation, but

15 the situation on the ground was completely different. What I'm saying is

16 not everything you heard on the radio and on television could be trusted.

17 No everything materialised the way it was portrayed.

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Okay. I would ask the Trial Chamber to admit

19 this video into evidence, please.

20 MS. BIERSAY: No objections, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 4954.1 shall be

23 assigned Exhibit D35. Thank you.

24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. I asked you about some citizens of Borovo Selo of Serbian

Page 3919

1 ethnicity and some others who were Croats.

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D249.

3 I'm interested in the second page of the document. We don't have a B/C/S

4 translation. This is a very short document.

5 Q. Let's look at chapter 1 on page 2 about intentional killings of

6 civilians, and look at Roman I and 1-001. It says here briefly --

7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we scroll down a little,

8 please.

9 Q. It says here that on the 4th of July, 1991, in Borovo Naselje,

10 Dragan Mijatovic, Stojan Stojanovic, and some other people were killed.

11 They were Serbs, they were not identified, and there is a list of

12 suspects underneath. Did you hear about this incident?

13 A. No, I did not.

14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the following

15 page, 1-008 is the chapter that I would like to look at.

16 Q. Again, there is a reference to the killing of a Serb from

17 Borovo Naselje whose name was Ilija Lozancic. Again there is a list of

18 suspects. Did you hear about this incident?

19 A. No, I did not.

20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's go to the following page.

21 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honours, excuse me. I'm not sure where

22 Mr. Zivanovic is going with this. So far he's read into the record two

23 blocks from this document. The witness, even before, said that he'd not

24 heard of these people. The question and the documents were still put to

25 him, so at this time I'd object.

Page 3920

1 If Mr. Zivanovic has questions for the witness, he should ask him

2 without showing him the document, essentially reading it into the record

3 only to have the witness say that he's never heard of it.

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I didn't ask to -- for this document to be

6 admitted. I just confronted the witness with this, with the content of

7 this document, and I would like to give the source of my information

8 about this question.

9 MS. BIERSAY: I'm happy to find the transcript cite, but I

10 believe the witness was asked about whether or not he knew about crimes

11 against Serbs, and he said no at that time. I will try to find the

12 transcript page. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but that's what I understood, and

13 I think now to read these portions of the document into the record is

14 prejudicial and unreliable.

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, if you want to know whether the

16 witness knows anything about particular incidents, I think it would be

17 appropriate to ask the witness directly without showing him this

18 document.

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I will do, Your Honours.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Does the name Milan Djukic ring a bell?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You don't know him at all? He was from Borovo Naselje.

23 A. No.

24 Q. What about Cedo Jovic?

25 A. No.

Page 3921

1 Q. A waiter whose family name was Pantic?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Milan Siladzin?

4 A. Let me repeat: If you showed me their photos, maybe I would

5 remember them, but I don't remember their names. And when all of these

6 happened, I was not there. I was there on the 2nd of May because of the

7 bank holiday, then I returned to Zagreb to complete my post-graduate

8 studies. So if all those things happened, and I suppose that they did,

9 how would I have been in a position to know? I was not there.

10 Q. According to the information that I have all the people whose

11 names I mentioned to you were alive on the 2nd of May, which is one

12 thing; and second of all, I'm asking you about these people because you

13 said that you knew a lot of Serbs.

14 A. Yes, I am a doctor. Just bear with me for a moment. In the

15 Borovo company, over 70 per cent employees were Serbs, and they were all

16 my patients. I -- I knew them, but I could not remember. I cannot

17 remember their names. But they will know me, they will know me as their

18 doctor.

19 As for the document that you are showing me, I can be almost sure

20 that I knew them all. There are very few people from Borovo Selo,

21 Trpinja, Vukovar, who didn't work in the company or their families did

22 not work in the companies. But there were 20.000 of them. How do you

23 expect me to remember all of their names 22 years after the events? You

24 can ask me about what I did, what I experienced, but as to what happened

25 before or what happened after or what happened while I wasn't there, how

Page 3922

1 am I supposed to know all that?

2 Q. I am restricting my questions to some persons. I am asking you

3 whether you know them, whether you knew them. I am not asking you

4 whether you know that -- about any harm that happened to them.

5 A. I am telling you, I probably know 90 per cent of them because I

6 was their doctor. I lived with them for so many years, but I can't

7 really remember all of their names, or I can't put any faces to the

8 names. I am not a computer. I cannot promptly recall their names and

9 their faces.

10 Q. Let's just clarify one thing: What do you mean when you say that

11 you know somebody if you don't know their name?

12 A. I know a lot of people. There were people who came to my office

13 a hundred times. Some people's names I know. Some names I don't know

14 but I know their faces. In my neighbourhood there were 8.000 to 10.000

15 people. Are you saying that I should know all of their names? But we

16 greet each other when we see each other in the street. I know some of

17 their nicknames. I don't know their full names sometimes.

18 Q. My question was not properly recorded so I will repeat it: What

19 do you mean when you say that you know somebody if you don't know their

20 name?

21 A. I, for example, know that somebody is my neighbour. There are

22 neighbours whom I know but I don't know their name. There are a lot of

23 people who live in my street and I don't --

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Just one minute, Dr. Malla.

25 Mr. Zivanovic, you put on the record your exact question, but do

Page 3923

1 you need the witness to repeat his answer?

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: The first was:

3 "What do you mean when you say somebody if you don't know their

4 names?"

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yeah, that was your question, but --

6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, my question was:

7 "What do you mean when you say that you know somebody."

8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes.

9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It was not the same.

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's your question.

11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yeah.

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: But on the record there was a little error in --

13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yeah, yeah.

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- the English translation of the question, but

15 the witness understood your question in B/C/S and he gave an answer.

16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's correct. But that --

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: So he doesn't need to repeat that answer, do we

18 agree?

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yeah, yeah. I agree, Your Honour. I am just

20 repeating my answer [sic] for the transcript.

21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes. Please proceed.

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Very well. In that case I will not put any more questions about

24 persons of Serb ethnicity and their names, but I would like to know

25 another thing: Do you know, because you worked in Borovo and you knew

Page 3924

1 people there, do you know that a number of citizens of Serb ethnicity

2 were fired? They were removed from some of the managerial positions and

3 fired at that particular time in 1991?

4 A. Well, I know this: Since after May 2nd, many of the workers in

5 Borovo factory of Serb ethnicity did not show up for work. They did not

6 come for work. There were barricades, but they didn't want to come to

7 work. I know colleagues, two colleagues of mine, doctors who were of

8 Serb ethnicity, they were fired, and we were short of staff.

9 But as for my work organisation, the company I worked for, of the

10 people -- the people that I saw, went to see in Trpinja to treat them, I

11 was told by those people that they weren't allowed through the

12 check-points, the barricades, that's why they didn't show up for work.

13 And I can tell you another thing: Borovo is a big factory. It

14 had 52 managers, out of them three were Croats. And now you're telling

15 me that they were fired -- that they were fired by Croats. I mean, it's

16 really a pity that you should try and involve me as a foreigner into your

17 ethnic troubles.

18 Q. Very well. Let us clarify one more thing, because in a couple of

19 your answers you mention one and the same thing.

20 First of all, let's start from the end. How did you know the

21 ethnicity of all the 52 managers in Borovo?

22 A. Well, I was a doctor. First of all, you know someone's first and

23 last name. You know their dialect. And then in the end they would tell

24 you. There was no shame in being any ethnicity, so people will tell you.

25 So if you ask them they would tell you, I'm a Kurd, or, I'm a Roma. I

Page 3925

1 would say that I was a Syrian. So why do you think that this was some

2 special detection work that needed to be done in order to find out that

3 someone was a Serb. When you work with people you would know -- based on

4 their name, you would know what their ethnicity was or they would tell

5 you.

6 Q. Doctor, I put a very clear question and it has to do with the

7 52 managers that you mention. Were all of them your patients?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All the 52 managers?

10 A. Yes. I was in charge of this medical office. For two years

11 almost I was in charge of all the staff.

12 Q. Can you tell us whether all these 52 managers came to you and

13 told you what their ethnicity was?

14 A. Well, as I've already told you, no one said that to me, but based

15 on the conversation with them, based on their name or the place of birth

16 which I had on their files, I could tell. When you hear a person from

17 Zagreb or a person from Belgrade or Nis talk you can tell the difference

18 based on their accent. So I don't see really why you're asking me about

19 ethnicity.

20 As a doctor, both in the camp and everywhere else, I showed that

21 I treated in those 100 days of the encirclement, I treated everyone. And

22 now you're asking me about people's ethnicity? What for? I'm a Syrian.

23 Q. The reason I'm asking you about ethnicity is that you kept

24 records of that. You kept records of these 52 managers and their

25 ethnicity?

Page 3926

1 A. I did not keep any records. I worked there. I knew the, for

2 instance, manager for the shoe factory and then the different

3 departments. I knew all of these managers. We had joint celebrations of

4 New Year's or New Year's Eve or the 1st of May holiday, so I knew. But

5 for them I was neither a Croat nor a Slovene. I was a foreigner.

6 Q. Could you please just answer my question. We know --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot interpret while

8 the speakers are overlapping.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: First of all, it is impossible for the

10 interpreters to do their work when speakers are overlapping. That's for

11 the witness and for Mr. Zivanovic.

12 Secondly, Dr. Malla, there is no reason that I can see that you

13 should get upset except, perhaps, for the insistence of Mr. Zivanovic for

14 questions -- on questions that have been asked and answered, and I don't

15 really see the use of repeating the questions and getting the same

16 answers.

17 So could you please move on.

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Q. [Interpretation] Tell us, please, did you know that in Borovo and

20 Vukovar before -- in the period before the 1st of May, there was arming

21 going on, arming of Croatian citizens?

22 A. I reiterate: I came there in July. I wasn't there in that

23 period, but I could see -- when I got there in July, I could see arms. I

24 did see the reserve, the MUP reserve, and I did see armed men in civilian

25 clothes. I did see that. But I wasn't there in the period which you

Page 3927

1 mention. I arrived there in July and you could see armed people then.

2 Q. Very well. Now I would like to ask you a few things about your

3 stay in Stajicevo camp. You said yesterday during your testimony, and

4 this was on page 3868 -- 3867, my apologies, of the transcript, you said

5 that every morning a song was sung to the effect, "And may the traitor of

6 his homeland be damned." Do you recall that?

7 A. Yes, I do, but I believe it would be fairer if you ask -- it's

8 not fair to put the question this way, because this wasn't a song. This

9 was the Yugoslav anthem that was being sung. Is that a song for you, an

10 anthem? Well, every morning when we got up we had to sing the Yugoslav

11 anthem and some of the versus of that anthem have this verse that I

12 mention, and that part we had to repeat several times, and if you didn't

13 you would be beaten, and the words were to the effect, "May the traitor

14 of his homeland be damned."

15 Now, you were a Yugoslav. Now, you shouldn't call the anthem a

16 song. You should show some respect for the anthem. It's not a song.

17 Q. Well, perhaps you did mention that this was the Yugoslav anthem

18 that was being sung. Perhaps I didn't realise that. Perhaps I missed

19 something of what you said, but that's why I wanted to ask you.

20 A. Well, yes, you could see it in the transcript yesterday.

21 Q. You also said yesterday that the detainees were forced to relieve

22 themselves in the same area where they were sleeping, and you repeated

23 that today.

24 A. Yes.

25 (redacted)

Page 3928

11 Page 3928 redacted.

Page 3929

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

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20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Okay.

24 Q. [Interpretation] I would just like to clarify one more thing, and

25 it has to do with the dates, and you talked about it earlier today.

Page 3930

1 Could you just clarify this. Could you clarify the date, the exact date

2 when you arrived in the camp? You mention on the one hand the calendar

3 dates and in other cases you referred to days as days of your -- from the

4 day of your arrival there and then onwards. Could you tell us exactly on

5 what date you arrived in the camp?

6 A. On the 19th in the evening around p.m.

7 Q. And that was your first day of stay there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And from that day onwards, you count the days. When you said the

10 seventh day, you meant the seventh day?

11 A. Well, yes, the seventh day of the camp, the eighth day and so on,

12 but if you like I can also mention the particular dates.

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

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Page 3931

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8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

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15 (redacted)

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

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23 (redacted)

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25 (redacted)

Page 3932

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: The issue is more precise, only the existence of

5 sanitary facilities or not. It's about having to relieve -- the

6 detainees having to relieve themselves in the place where they were

7 living, eating, sleeping, et cetera.

8 MS. BIERSAY: That connection --

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: The obvious alternative would have been even

10 without sanitary facilities to do it somewhere else and to be allowed to

11 do it somewhere else, outside or I don't know what. So that's the

12 particular issue.

13 But if you're not in a position to agree --

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

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Page 3933

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 MS. BIERSAY: Sorry, Your Honours. I know that you've conferred

3 and perhaps you've already reached a decision, but I was going to propose

4 that during the break I review the materials and come back to the

5 Trial Chamber with a firm answer. I just want to be sure of it. I'm not

6 sure how much longer Mr. Zivanovic has to go.

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

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14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Let's avoid the problem now and say that you

18 answer the question as you think fit to do.

19 MS. BIERSAY: Perfect, Your Honour. Thank you. I understand.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, please proceed in the meantime.

21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Malla, I would like to ask you about another

23 point of your evidence which concerns your alleged encounter with

24 Dr. Dokmanovic in the Stajicevo camp.

25 A. Mr. Dokmanovic was not a doctor. You said Dr. Dokmanovic.

Page 3934

1 Q. I apologise. With Slavko Dokmanovic, I meant. I apologise.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you explain the circumstances of that encounter? If that

4 indeed happened, if he indeed did not recognise you, do you have an

5 explanation why he didn't want to address you?

6 A. My explanation and my opinion of everybody's conduct over there

7 was that they hated us. All those of us who had stayed in Vukovar and in

8 Borovo, they hated us. There was no other reason. Our heads were

9 60 centimetres apart. I am sure that he recognised me. We had been

10 together for 20 years, the last time before that in the month of June.

11 Q. At that time, what was Slavko Dokmanovic's position in the

12 Serbian government at the time?

13 A. Well, you know, if I was in the camp, of course I wouldn't know.

14 Q. Thank you, Dr. Malla.

15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I have nothing, Your Honours. Thank you.

16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay, shall we start redirect?

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: We'll take the normal break a little bit early

21 and come back at 12.30. Would that be --

22 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you. That would be sufficient, I think.

23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So, Dr. Malla, we take the second break,

24 come back at 12.30. Court Usher will escort you out of the courtroom.

25 Thank you very much.