Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10953

 1                           Thursday, 4 September 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-04-75-T, The Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             May we have the appearances, please, starting with the

12     Prosecution.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Lisa Biersay, on

14     behalf of the Office of the Prosecutor, along with STA Douglas Stringer,

15     Case Manager, Thomas Laugel, and our legal intern, Marina Marcikic.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

19     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             The witness may be brought in.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Madam Celar.

24             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  May I remind you that you are still under oath.


Page 10954

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay, please proceed.

 3             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                           WITNESS:  AMANDA CELAR [Resumed]

 5                           Cross-examination by Ms. Biersay: [Continued]

 6        Q.   Good morning.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8        Q.   -- Mrs. Celar.  I'd like to begin today by asking you whether you

 9     recognise some names whom the Prosecution believes there's evidence

10     showing that they were active in Beli Manastir.

11             You already describe knowing Borivoje Zivanovic?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Is that correct?  And he was the president of the Beli Manastir

14     Executive Council --

15        A.   I didn't know him as that, I knew him as mayor.

16        Q.   You knew him as mayor?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Do you know someone by the name of Lazar Bronovic?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   And the information we have is that he is -- he was the head of

21     the TO in Beli Manastir in 1991.  You didn't --

22        A.   I don't know what the TO is.

23        Q.   Territorial Defence?

24        A.   Uh-huh.

25        Q.   Have you ever heard of that term?


Page 10955

 1        A.   Oh, yeah.

 2        Q.   Was he?

 3        A.   I never heard of that name.

 4        Q.   What about Bovoje Dobrokes?

 5        A.   I've heard of that name.  I didn't know him but I know that

 6     Dobrokes or similar.

 7        Q.   Dobrokes is that a familiar name?

 8        A.   Something similar to that but I didn't think was the ...  I

 9     thought it ended in a -- there was a "s" in there somewhere, but I could

10     say it's a similar name to a name that I was aware of.

11        Q.   Do you know who the head of the Baranja TO was?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   What about Svetislav Branic?

14        A.   I've heard of that name as well, Branic.

15        Q.   Did you know him as a commander of the local police?

16        A.   I didn't know them.  I just heard of names, but never went

17     anywhere near them.

18        Q.   What about the name Milan Jaric?

19        A.   Jaric, I knew him, yes.

20        Q.   And what did you know him as?

21        A.   He was in the -- the same groups as my husband was in.  They were

22     fighting on the front lines.  And later, I knew that his son had been

23     killed in a motorcycle accident.  So that's how I knew him, the two

24     reasons.

25        Q.   Have you heard the name Milos Mamula?


Page 10956

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   And in your -- this is a place not a person in your statement, I

 3     believe it's paragraph 48, you mention a place called Devil's Bridge?

 4        A.   Excuse me, I don't have a copy of my statement.

 5        Q.   Well, I believe it has been admitted now as D173, if I'm correct.

 6     So --

 7        A.   If I could just see it.

 8        Q.   Sure, please.

 9        A.   Yes, I know about Devil's Bridge.

10        Q.   Where is that?

11        A.   It is somewhere between Osijek and -- I don't know the specific

12     location.  On the front line between Osijek and ... well, I would say

13     Beli Manastir, but I actually mean that part of Baranja that was

14     controlled by Serbs.

15        Q.   I see.

16        A.   But I've never been there.

17        Q.   But you heard about it?

18        A.   I was told about it by my husband and by some of the wives.

19        Q.   Did Ilija Celar or anyone else tell you that before the conflict

20     began, Serbs were only 25.5 per cent of the Beli Manastir municipality

21     population?

22        A.   I don't remember that figure.  I remember seeing - I can't say it

23     was Ilija that showed me, it could have been - a breakdown of the

24     population, the census, but there was a lot of argument about the census

25     as being people who had put their names down as Yugoslavian were


Page 10957

 1     classified as Croatian.  That's was the claim of it but I don't know the

 2     veracity of that.

 3        Q.   Just to be clear, Ilija Celar showed you the 1991 census?

 4        A.   I can't say it was him.  I saw it -- I saw it -- but I don't

 5     recall if he -- he could have showed to me but it's not something I

 6     remember, but I remember seeing it.

 7        Q.   When did you see it?

 8        A.   I can't tell you.  I don't know.  I didn't even know it was

 9     around that date.

10        Q.   Did you -- was it before 1992 or after?

11        A.   I can't tell you.

12        Q.   Were you also aware that the Hungarian population was about 16.5

13     per cent before --

14        A.   I don't recall.

15        Q.   -- the census.

16        A.   I don't recall these figures.

17        Q.   I'm asking you that because in paragraph 81 of your statement in

18     the last sentence, you say:  "There were many Hungarians living in

19     Baranja at that time and I am to the totally unaware of any of them

20     leaving."

21        A.   Yes, that's true, because we used to go to the villages.  They --

22     some of the villages sold very good wine, and I'd visited some of those

23     villages.  I went to one of the -- I can't remember the name of it -- one

24     of the Hungarian villages where the family of my girlfriend lived because

25     they'd got a goat, a small goat that had been orphaned and they asked me


Page 10958

 1     if I'd take it because they knew I liked animals.  So I went to this

 2     Hungarian village to take the goat, with her, she drove me there.

 3        Q.   Is that your basis for concluding that you're unaware of any of

 4     the Hungarians leaving?

 5        A.   No, just because I didn't hear anything like that.

 6        Q.   So Ilija Celar didn't tell you --

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   -- about that?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   So are you saying you know for a fact that not one of the 16.5

11     per cent of the Hungarian population left?

12        A.   No, I don't know it as a fact.  And because people were coming

13     and going all the time, I have to say that the names, if somebody left,

14     it wasn't expressed as an ethnic person that had left.  It was expressed

15     as a name.  So-and-so has left from wherever they'd left.

16        Q.   So you could have heard the names of people leaving but you

17     wouldn't necessarily associate an ethnicity with them.  Is that what you

18     were saying?

19        A.   It wasn't the key issue.  You could assume.  I couldn't tell the

20     difference then between Serbian names and Croatian names.

21        Q.   Okay.

22        A.   But you could usually understand a Hungarian name.

23        Q.   I'd-like to take a quick look at Exhibit 3039 which is tab 68.

24             Now, you can see this is a letter dated October 18, 1991, and

25     it's for the minister for foreign affairs, the Republic of Hungary.


Page 10959

 1        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 2        Q.   And you see it says:  "From various reliable sources, the

 3     following information has reached us about developments ..."

 4             And on the next page, discusses the forcible changes in the

 5     ethnic composition of the population on the territories ... most openly

 6     in the Baranja region.  The replacement of 6300 expelled Hungarians and

 7     even more Croats by 13.000 Serbs is under way."

 8             Did you know about 6300 expelled Hungarians?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Now this was happening sometime before October 18, 1991, so you

11     actually were not --

12        A.   That's correct, I wasn't there.

13        Q.   You weren't there then?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   And this is not something that Ilija Celar told you about; right?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   There's some other documents in this regard, but I'd like to hold

18     off on them and move on to another topic and I may come back to it.

19             What I'd like to ask you about now is paragraph 80 of your

20     statement where you said:  "I believe the first time I saw the Red Berets

21     was 1994."

22        A.   Yes, that's true.

23        Q.   Why did you think that the people you were seeing were, in fact,

24     Red Berets?

25        A.   Well, they were wearing red berets.  I'd never seen anybody


Page 10960

 1     wearing red berets in Beli Manastir before.

 2        Q.   And that was in 1994?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   I ask you this because I'd like to show you - let me just make

 5     sure I have the right tab number - it would be Exhibit 2852, tab 60.

 6             And if we could go to page 3 of that.  And this is a document

 7     dated 2 June 1992.  And it's a report from UNPROFOR.

 8        A.   I haven't got that.

 9        Q.   It will come on your screen --

10        A.   Okay.

11        Q.   -- hopefully in a moment.

12             MS. BIERSAY:  So P2852, tab 60.  And I want to go to item 8 on

13     that page that starts with:  "From BelBat ..."

14             Let me check the -- is there an issue with the -- the number that

15     I can help with?  So page 3.  And if we could expand 8 from BelBat.  And

16     I'll read it for the record:  "The Red Berets, special antiterrorist

17     police, have not left Baranja.  They are now in blue uniforms, milicija.

18     Several persons have surely been identified by UN personal," which I

19     think is meant to be personnel.

20        Q.   So according to this, the Red Berets had, in fact, were now

21     dressed differently --

22        A.   Could you please tell me what year we're talking about?  I'm not

23     clear about this at all.

24        Q.   This one is 1992 so I just --

25        A.   I understand.  This is 1992.


Page 10961

 1        Q.   Correct.  That in 1992 already, the uniforms of the Red Berets

 2     had changed?

 3        A.   I'd never seen any Red Berets before the -- 1995.

 4        Q.   And if we could now go, I believe, to Exhibit 2863, which is

 5     tab 63 - I'll check, yes.  And now going to page 4.

 6             At the very top where it says "Sector East," can you read that?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And it says:  "In Baranja, Red Berets have disappeared.  Some of

 9     them have been recognised in regular police clothing and in civilian

10     clothing, having a milicija ID card."

11             So what I am putting to you is with the arrival of UNPROFOR, the

12     Red Berets began changing their uniforms in order to blend in with the

13     police and they were, in fact, not wearing red berets.

14        A.   Well, I don't recall exactly when they did it, but they took all

15     the uniforms off.  My husband certainly stopped wearing a uniform when

16     the -- when the deployment started, within -- I can't be exact, the date,

17     I don't remember.  But within a short time of, I thought, of the

18     deployment, all the men stopped wearing uniforms.  And when I saw the Red

19     Berets in 1994, they were the only ones wearing uniforms.  Nobody else --

20     they were all in civilian clothes.  I would know more exactly if I could

21     remember exactly when my husband started working for BelBat -- not

22     Belbat, CIVPOL.

23        Q.   And when you say deployment, do you mean the UNPROFOR deployment?

24        A.   No, I think I mean CIVPOL, when they came.  By that time, all the

25     uniforms were gone, and -- but these Red Berets came back and did --


Page 10962

 1     really terrorised everybody, didn't matter who you were, any nationality

 2     at all.

 3        Q.   And you see here that UNPROFOR is talking about the Red Berets in

 4     Baranja in 1992 where --

 5        A.   As I -- I didn't see them.

 6        Q.   You didn't see them then.  Why did you your husband stop wearing

 7     a uniform?

 8        A.   Because they were all told they had to disarm and hand in all

 9     their uniforms, which they did.  But I don't know what date that was.

10     But all the guns and everything they'd got was handed in.  And uniforms.

11        Q.   You realise that UNPROFOR's position was, in fact, they did not

12     disarm even though they changed uniforms.

13        A.   You're talking about the Red Berets?  I'm not talking about them,

14     I'm talking about my husband.

15        Q.   I am talking about the other forces that were in Baranja at this

16     time.

17        A.   I can only talk about my husband and the people I knew that were

18     his friends, because he then got his job working for BelBat.

19        Q.   Hold was Ilija Celar in 1991?

20        A.   He was born in 1956.

21        Q.   So he was definitely of mobilisation age?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And he, in fact, was mobilised?

24        A.   Well, I don't know whether he was mobilised.  I don't -- they --

25     no, they were never officially mobilised as far as I knew.  They'd got a


Page 10963

 1     -- formed a defence group, 19 private citizens met together, and that's

 2     how it started.

 3        Q.   Did his unit have a name what he was part of?

 4        A.   Well, no.  No, they weren't -- after the fighting - if I could

 5     just give you an indication of what I thought the position was.  After

 6     the -- there were 46 of them involved in the fighting from the 19th of

 7     August to the 23rd, about then.

 8        Q.   23rd of --

 9        A.   1991, August.

10        Q.   And this is information that you got from Ilija Celar --

11        A.   Yes --

12        Q.   -- because you weren't there?

13        A.   -- he told me.  And he also told me that the Yugoslav Army were

14     there but they were watching them.  And in fact, when my husband went up

15     the rain tower where the flour is stored in Beli Manastir and they put

16     the flag up there, the Serbian flag.  And we they came back down again,

17     they were arrested by the army who asked them what they were doing.  So

18     it wasn't -- he wasn't mobilised, let me put that way.

19        Q.   But he wore a uniform?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And what uniform did he wear?

22        A.   Well, initially they had a blue, like a police uniform.  And then

23     when they had -- when they start going to the front line, there, then

24     they all changed in the camouflage.

25        Q.   Now you describe in your statement that he returned from the


Page 10964

 1     front lines.  I believe this is in paragraph 32:  "That on the 23rd or 24

 2     of August, 1991, he was called back from the front line with

 3     Boro Zivanovic."

 4        A.   He told me about this.  I have no personal knowledge of it.  We

 5     were talking about journalists, how many journalists had been in Baranja.

 6        Q.   So Ilija Celar participated in the take-over of Beli Manastir,

 7     right, there's no -- you've already --

 8        A.   Yeah.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And he was the one who told you about it and he's the one

10     who gave you all the information for paragraphs 26, 31, 32 --

11        A.   No.  26, some of it came from my neighbour about what had been

12     happening.  Some of it came from friends that I met afterwards.  But the

13     information about the people that were killed came from Ilija.

14        Q.   And the information about the JNA, what they were doing?

15        A.   Yes, came from Ilija.

16        Q.   Okay.  Did Ilija Celar tell you about non-Serbs being killed,

17     beaten, tortured during the period of time that you were away?

18        A.   No, because most of the time he was on the front line, but later

19     he did when I came back, because he'd been instrumental in intervening -

20     I was very proud of him - in stopping or releasing people that had been

21     taken into custody without any real reason at all.

22        Q.   So --

23        A.   I met some of them afterwards.

24        Q.   So Croats were being taken in for no reason or Serbs as well?

25        A.   Well, he said that.  He saw that the people that had been taken


Page 10965

 1     in without good reason, as he saw it, he would intervene.

 2        Q.   And what ethnicity were these people?

 3        A.   The one I met, I'm not sure whether he was Hungarian or Croatian.

 4        Q.   Do you know this person's name?

 5        A.   I don't have it with me.  I do know it but not -- I didn't put

 6     the notes.  I went and met him at his home because he didn't leave

 7     Baranja, he stayed.  And the other one was a priest from Djakova.  Ilija

 8     knew the family.  He was Croatian.  They said he was a -- had as a

 9     sympathiser.

10        Q.   And did he?

11        A.   Ilija went and took him out of the police station.  It was

12     chaotic then.

13        Q.   Did he --

14        A.   And took him to the border.

15        Q.   He took him to the border?

16        A.   Took him to the border gave him enough dinars, Hungarian border,

17     so he could get back to -- Ilija did that for him.

18        Q.   So he could get back to where?

19        A.   To Djakova.  He wanted to go to his seminary.  He said he

20     continue his studies in the Djakova seminary.

21        Q.   Did Ilija Celar describe non-Serbs being killed, beaten and

22     tortured not just about the people he saved but of this happening to --

23     to non-Serbs?

24        A.   Not about killings.  He said that they were being beaten up in

25     the police station, which enraged him.


Page 10966

 1        Q.   And who was doing the beating up?

 2        A.   Well, I don't know because -- this is the very early 1991 and

 3     they were mainly on the front line.  So when he came back from the front

 4     line, it was chaos in the -- people were putting uniforms on.  They

 5     weren't real police there.  Those that didn't want to fight, I think, and

 6     go to the front line went to become policemen.

 7        Q.   So --

 8        A.   So I can't tell you.  I'm now speculating because I don't know.

 9        Q.   Because you weren't there.

10        A.   Because I wasn't there.

11        Q.   And the information you got --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly pause between question and answer.

13     Thank you.

14             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.

15        Q.   Did Ilija Celar ever express the idea that Serbs, Serb fighters,

16     had their own truth?

17        A.   No.  I don't know what that means.

18        Q.   Did you ever hear him say that the Baranja area was Serb holy

19     land?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Now, you describe around at the end of August that Ilija Celar

22     was called back from the front lines in order to meet with foreign

23     journalists.

24        A.   Yes.  Not meet them, to be an interpreter.

25        Q.   To be an interpreter.  Thank you.


Page 10967

 1             I'd like to now turn to 65 ter number 6572, which, I believe, is

 2     tab 91.

 3        A.   Yeah.

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  And directing my attention now to the Trial

 5     Chamber -- just to inform the Chamber, that this is something that we --

 6     we found after our 65 ter exhibit list was finalized, and it is not

 7     currently part of the 65 ter exhibit list for the Prosecution.  So we

 8     would move for its addition.  And I'd like to discuss it with the

 9     witness.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

11             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I don't think the document needs to

12     be on the Prosecution's 65 ter list to be discussed with the document --

13     or discussed with the witness, so I would suggest that the document is

14     used and admissibility is discussed at a later time.  But certainly

15     admission to the Prosecution 65 ter list is neither here nor there, I

16     would suggest.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  I'm happy to proceed in the manner by -- dictated

18     by the Trial Chamber.  I would like to show Mrs. Celar the exact words

19     instead of merely quoting them to her, and I believe the direction from

20     the Trial Chamber was that in order to show something to the witness, it

21     had to be on the 65 ter exhibit list.

22             Given that we're now in the Defence phase and reacting to their

23     witness that we've just been given notice of -- not just, but certainly

24     after the finalization of our 65 ter exhibit list, we would like to be

25     able to use additional documents with witnesses, and this is one of them.


Page 10968

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  Just to be clear, Mr. President.  There's no

 3     objection to using the document if it's not on the 65 ter exhibit list.

 4     That's our understanding that it can be used without being on that list.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And afterwards, eventually, Ms. Biersay, you

 6     would tender the document.

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  Exactly, Your Honour.  You understand me well.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  At that -- at that moment, we can admit it to the

 9     65 ter list and admit it as an exhibit.

10             MS. BIERSAY:  I see.  So --

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So you may proceed and show the document to the

12     witness.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour, for that clarification.

14        Q.   So if we can now go to 65 ter exhibit number 6572, this is an

15     article that's dated September 3, 1991, which is around the time that you

16     describe Mr. Celar assisting Mayor Zivanovic with interpretation with

17     foreign journalists.

18        A.   Yes, I presume so.

19        Q.   You presume so.  In your statement, you said that --

20        A.   If this is that document, I meant, excuse me.  I can't see it.

21     Thank you.

22        Q.   Let me see if I can assist.  For now it's just the date.  It is

23     entitled:  Croatian corn belt becomes a bargaining chip," and the date is

24     on the next line, September 3, 1991.

25             Do you see the date?


Page 10969

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And you describe that Ilija Celar was called back from the front

 3     lines sometime between the 23rd and 24th of August, 1991 to assist with

 4     foreign journalists.

 5        A.   That's what he told me.

 6        Q.   That's what he told you.  Now, I'd like to direct your attention,

 7     if we could down a few more lines, and there is a sentence that begins:

 8     "Reporters trying to travel in the region ..."

 9             Do you see that --

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   "Reporters trying to travel in the region have been stopped and

12     questioned.  One Croatian reporter is missing.  One group of

13     photographers came under fire and abandoned their car in the zone on

14     Sunday.  'This is our holy land.  You cannot understand this.  We're not

15     interested in western opinion or what the world thinks of us,'

16     Ilija Celar told a small group of the first western reporters to reach

17     the capital since its siege.  'We have our truth.'"

18        A.   Right.

19        Q.   And it also goes on to describe Celar as one of the Serbian

20     irregulars holding the region, saying that he:  "... declined to describe

21     what had happened in the area."

22             So Mr. Celar was, in fact, one of the -- the Serb -- a member of

23     the Serb forces who facilitated the take-over [Overlapping speakers] ...

24        A.   Yes.  I said there were 19 of them to begin with.

25        Q.   And so did Ilija Celar express to you that this, indeed was --


Page 10970

 1     that Baranja was holy land -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

 2        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ... no, he didn't.  I'd like to say that

 3     this is written by a Croatian journalist and I've read other things

 4     written by Croatian journalists, and as such, that's how I regard it.

 5        Q.   Do you mean that because it is a Croatian journalist it is --

 6        A.   Biased.

 7        Q.   -- biased?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you please not overlap.

10             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

11             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.

12        Q.   So are you saying that all articles by Croatian journalists are

13     biased?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Some of them are --

16        A.   Some.

17        Q.   And you regard this one as being biased.

18        A.   Truthfully, yes.

19        Q.   And why is that?

20        A.   Well, it's the way it's written.  It says that Ilija declined to

21     describe what had happened in the area.  I don't -- he may not have been

22     in that area.  Which area are they precisely talking about?  I haven't

23     understood that from this -- he was Beli Manastir, and then they moved

24     towards Osijek.  At some point, the Croatian police went through with

25     safe passage to Osijek.  But I don't know what this reference is about


Page 10971

 1     why he declined to describe what had happened in the area, where they

 2     talk shattered windows and machine-gun fire.  It's a motive, and it's

 3     inferring that he is hiding something.  That's why I think this is

 4     biased; it's not factual.

 5        Q.   You don't think that Ilija Celar would try to hide anything?

 6        A.   No, I don't.

 7        Q.   In your -- in your statement, Mrs. Celar, you describe that while

 8     you were away in the UK, that Ilija Celar frequently called you from the

 9     police station at Beli Manastir to give you updates.

10        A.   Yes.  Well, it's where I think it was because there weren't any

11     other phones available at the time.

12        Q.   And how regularly would Ilija Celar go to the police station in

13     Beli Manastir?

14        A.   Well, it wasn't -- it was so I wouldn't worry that he wasn't

15     safe.  So I don't actually remember.  Could have been days apart.  Wasn't

16     weeks apart.  But it was days apart.  But I can't remember now

17     specifically to answer that question.  Sorry.

18        Q.   So is it fair to say you don't know how often he was going to the

19     police station in general, not just to call you, but in general?

20        A.   In general, I don't know.

21        Q.   Because you weren't there?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did you -- did Ilija Celar tell you that in 1991 the Red Berets

24     frequented that police station?

25        A.   He may have done, but I don't remember.


Page 10972

 1        Q.   How far is Bilje --

 2        A.   Bilje.

 3        Q.   Bilje from Osijek?

 4        A.   I think it's the very first place that you come to after you've

 5     crossed the bridge, the first village into Baranja before Darda.

 6        Q.   And Ilija Celar also participated in the take-over of Bilje;

 7     right?

 8        A.   Well, this was on the road to Osijek, to the bridge.  There was

 9     only that one bridge to get out of Baranja into Osijek.

10        Q.   But he participated in that [Overlapping speakers] ...

11        A.   Well, he would have done, yes.

12        Q.   And that was, according to the information I have, in

13     September 1991?

14        A.   I don't know.  I don't know now how long it continued.

15        Q.   Did you hear about the Serb forces capturing the radio-television

16     transmitter in Baranja?

17        A.   No.  Excuse me, I may have done, but it's not something I

18     remember now.

19        Q.   I understand.  I won't show you this video, which is P2155.  I

20     would like to read a bit from it, the transcript, which is -- there

21     should be in e-court.  And I believe it's tab 28.  And it references

22     Goran Hadzic.  And, in this, he was asked about the transmitter at Bilje.

23     He was asked about returning it.  And he said --

24             MR. GOSNELL:  Sorry, could we have a page reference, please.

25             MS. BIERSAY:  It would be page 5.


Page 10973

 1        Q.   He said:  "It is absurd that you're asking -- that they are

 2     asking you to return it.  Baranja has been liberated.  Ustashas have been

 3     expelled on Baranja territory of the people who remained there."  All

 4     of -- it -- sorry.  "It means Serbs, Hungarians and Slavonians who didn't

 5     do anything wrong.  Our units took over the transmitter, they liberated

 6     it, and it's normal for us to decide which programme to broadcast."

 7             But you didn't hear about the take-over of this transmitter?

 8        A.   Well, it wouldn't really have been any interest to me.  I mean, I

 9     didn't -- I wouldn't have regarded it as relevant to me.  And thought

10     about it at all.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mrs. Celar.  Mrs. Celar, Mr. Gosnell has tried

12     to.

13             MR. GOSNELL:  It's just --

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just a moment Mr. Gosnell.

15             Mr. Gosnell tried to intervene between the question and the

16     answer but he didn't have the chance because you -- you were overlapping

17     again.

18             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So please keep in mind -- and there is a very

20     simple trick to do this.  Look at the screen.  I suppose you have the

21     screen with the transcript before you where you see everything that is

22     said being noted.  When the cursor stops, the recorder has finished --

23     the interpreters have finished, and then you can start your answer.  Then

24     you will be in nobody's way.  Thank you.

25             Mr. Gosnell, do you still want to intervene?


Page 10974

 1             MR. GOSNELL:  No.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 3             Please proceed, Ms. Biersay.

 4             MS. BIERSAY:

 5        Q.   Did you know that Ilija Celar had been ordered to find this radio

 6     equipment?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   You had a friend at the Politika paper; is that correct?

 9        A.   He wasn't a friend.  He was a journalist.

10        Q.   Did you know him personally?

11        A.   No, not before he rang me in Britain.

12        Q.   So I'd like to now turn your attention to Exhibit 3221.

13             MR. GOSNELL:  Is that P3221?

14             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes, P3221.  Which is tab 75.  And if we could zoom

15     in to around the second paragraph.

16        Q.   And two things:  You note the first -- the quote begins:  "The

17     government has full control over the territorial of Slavonia, Baranja,

18     and Western Srem ..."

19             Do you see that?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And this article is dated 29 August 1991.

22             Do you also see in the middle of that paragraph where it's

23     attributed to Goran Hadzic:  "We will invite all the Serbs outside

24     Serbian countries, the Serbs from Zagreb, Rijeka and other parts of the

25     current Croatia who do not wish to stay in the Ustasha state, to come to


Page 10975

 1     Baranja, as Baranja is Serbian.  There are empty houses here, which the

 2     Ustashas moved into after 1941, and they will not be coming back."

 3             Do you see that attributed to him?

 4        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 5        Q.   And, in fact, there were empty houses in Baranja at that time.

 6        A.   Oh, yes.

 7        Q.   Emptied by non-Serbs.

 8        A.   Serbs and non-Serbs.

 9        Q.   Serbs and non-Serbs.  I'd like to turn your attention to the

10     second page of this exhibit where it says:  "Radio Beli Manastir

11     equipment returned."  And it's dated 28 August.

12             In particular, I want to move to the second indentation.  It's an

13     incomplete paragraph, the one -- the one that reads:  "We were issued..."

14             Do you see that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   "We were issued an order to find and return the radio equipment."

17     We were told by a participant in the operation, Ilija Celar.  "We

18     conducted about 50 raids until we found the equipment ..."

19             And that continues on the next page.

20        A.   Excuse me, it said ten raids.

21        Q.   Excuse me, yes, ten raids.  "We conducted around ten raids until

22     we found the equipment," and that is attributed to Ilija Celar.

23        A.   All right.

24        Q.   Do you have any reason to duty that, in fact, he was given an

25     order and conducted those raids to finds the radio equipment?


Page 10976

 1        A.   No, I don't doubt that.

 2        Q.   And is that because it is coming from Politika?

 3        A.   Well, it's because there were only about 40-something fighters at

 4     that time.  So it would have been probably him or someone else I knew in

 5     that situation.

 6        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph -- let me make

 7     sure I have the right number.  Paragraph 46 of your statement.  And there

 8     you describe Ilija Celar being arrested.  You say in your statement that

 9     it was at the behest of Rade Kostic.

10        A.   Well, there was --

11        Q.   There was no question.

12        A.   Right.

13        Q.   My question is:  Is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Who told you that?  I just want a name, please.

16        A.   It could have been the judge I went to see, or it could -- the

17     local judge whose name was, um ...

18        Q.   Let me ask you this:  Did Ilija Celar tell you that it was

19     because of Rade Kostic?

20        A.   They wouldn't let me see him because we weren't married at that

21     time.

22        Q.   But later, did he ever tell you why he was arrested and

23     imprisoned?

24        A.   All of them.  There were 16 of them.  He wasn't alone.  The whole

25     group had been arrested.


Page 10977

 1        Q.   Again, my question is:  Did Ilija Celar ever tell you, confirm to

 2     that you it was Rade Kostic?

 3        A.   Well, yes he thought it was part of a conspiracy.

 4        Q.   Part of a conspiracy.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And what exactly was the allegation against him?

 7        A.   That he and others had murdered a Serbian man in one of the

 8     villages.

 9        Q.   And when did this happened?

10             MR. GOSNELL:  Sorry, Mr. President.  The question is vague.

11             MS. BIERSAY:  If the witness is able to --

12             MR. GOSNELL:  What is "this" referring to, Mr. President.  That

13     should be specified for the witness.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay.

15             MS. BIERSAY:  If I may say, that the witness said that allegation

16     was he and others had murdered a Serbian man in one of the villages.  And

17     my question is when did this happen.  So she's identified an event and

18     I'm asking about the time that relates to it.  And I find it very

19     interesting that Mr. Gosnell would get up at this juncture, I must say.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  Now, Mr. President, I don't appreciate the

21     imputation.  It was a run-of-the-mill intervention requesting for

22     clarification so the witness would clearly understand that the word

23     "this" is referring to the event that is the subject of the allegation.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If that was an objection, Mr. Gosnell, the

25     objection is overruled.


Page 10978

 1             Please proceed, Ms. Biersay.

 2             MS. BIERSAY:

 3        Q.   When did this alleged murder of a Serbian man happen?

 4        A.   I don't actually know because I wasn't there.

 5        Q.   Did you -- your -- your statement describes it for several

 6     paragraphs.

 7        A.   When I came back as -- in response to a message I had from Ilija,

 8     from the prison somebody got a message out.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  My question to you is:  During the time you're

10     getting information from Ilija Celar for paragraphs 46, 47, 48, did he

11     ever tell you when this alleged murder happened?

12        A.   I probably did know but I don't remember now.

13        Q.   I'll help you.  And the reason I'm asking, Mrs. Celar, is

14     because, do you know that your -- you do know that your husband was

15     charged for a crime, a murder; correct?

16        A.   No.  At that time, yes.

17        Q.   And you used your connections with the Serbian lobby to have him

18     released.

19        A.   It wasn't immediate, and it was as a result of the evidence that

20     was brought forward that all those there at that time, in that area, were

21     taken by the police and had all their hands checked for gun powder

22     residue.

23        Q.   So when you say that "I called my contacts with the Serbian lobby

24     in London and complained about this --"

25        A.   Yes.


Page 10979

 1        Q.   Being the arrest, "... threatened I wouldn't help them anymore

 2     until pressure was brought to bear to get the group out of jail.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   So you used your contacts with the Serbian lobby to have him

 5     released.

 6        A.   For a very good reason.

 7        Q.   For a very good reason, okay.

 8        A.   Can I answer that?

 9        Q.   I will get do it, Madam Celar.

10             The information we have is that murder occurred on 31st of

11     December, 1991, and that would coincide with the time that you got the

12     information about him being in prison in January of 1992; right?

13        A.   Yes.  Yes, I would think so.

14        Q.   And the information we have is this also happened in Ceminac,

15     which is the place you described you and your husband spending time.

16        A.   I don't know that it was Ceminac.  I don't remember where it was.

17        Q.   What I'd like to do now is to move to tab 97, I believe.  And

18     I'll tell you, Mrs. Celar, we requested documents pertaining to your

19     husband from the Republic of Croatia, and we were delivered, night before

20     last, with 200 pages pertaining to your husband.

21             Now some of this we've managed to very quickly translate, and I'd

22     like to ask you about the information contained in that documentation

23     that we received, and documentation we haven't before seen regarding your

24     husband.

25             So if we could move to -- if we could move to 65 ter 6603.  And


Page 10980

 1     according to this document -- this is a judgement.  And if we go to the

 2     second page, at the very top of the page, you see Ilija Celar's name --

 3        A.   Yes, yes.

 4        Q.   And this document finds guilty Dario Cvetkovic, Ilija Celar,

 5     Savo Jokovic, Dragan Kovacevic, found them all guilty of killing a man by

 6     the name of Stevo Pulic.  On the third page, it shows that Ilija Celar

 7     was, in fact, convicted in absentia and sentenced to ten years in prison.

 8             Did you know this?

 9        A.   In 2006, my husband was found not guilty of all charges in the

10     Croatian court in Osijek because I'd contacted the -- so this is how I

11     knew about it.  In 2006.  All charges were given as unfounded and I

12     contacted Interpol and asked them to remove his name from the lists, and

13     they did.  Because they said they had no outstanding charges against my

14     husband.

15        Q.   And you say that happened in --

16        A.   2006.

17        Q.   In 2006.  And who did you contact about that?

18        A.   We got -- we had a lawyer in Osijek, who went to Osijek.  The

19     court judgement was only displayed outside the court in Osijek and we

20     didn't find out about that judgement until 2011.  Then we appointed a

21     lawyer to find out what had happened.  He provided us with the judgement

22     that all charges against Ilija Celar had been dropped --

23        Q.   Do you have a copy of that?

24        A.   No.  But it's easy to get.

25        Q.   Have you -- have you provided a copy of that to the Defence?


Page 10981

 1        A.   No.  They didn't ask me for it.  And then I wrote to Interpol in

 2     France asking for his name to be removed from the red notices which they

 3     replied they would since there was no outstanding warrants or, et cetera,

 4     against him.

 5        Q.   And do you have that documentation?

 6        A.   He has that at home.

 7        Q.   Now, this document, according to this document, there was an

 8     appeal judgement that was also confirmed later in 2002.  And you are

 9     saying that in 2006 --

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   -- the charges were completely dropped?

12        A.   Well, and the charges then were -- there were no -- they stated

13     there were no outstanding charges against Ilija because he was also

14     charged with rebellion against -- or something like rebellion against the

15     state of Croatia.

16        Q.   Are you talking about the rebellion charge being dropped?

17        A.   No, all charges.

18        Q.   Or just the murder was dropped?

19        A.   They dismissed all -- they said no charges outstanding in his

20     case, the court of Osijek.

21        Q.   So I'd like to show you another document.  And this is at --

22     well, first let me ask you this:  Are you aware that in March of 2001,

23     Croatia initiated an international search for Ilija Celar for the murder

24     he's alleged to have committed against detainees in Beli Manastir --

25        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ... we weren't aware of that until I saw


Page 10982

 1     it on the Internet.

 2        Q.   When did you see that on the Internet?

 3        A.   Well, about 2009.  I can't be specific.  I wasn't looking for

 4     anything like that.  It could have been somebody told us about it.  But

 5     there was something like 50 people being charged.

 6        Q.   And why were you looking for that?

 7        A.   Because I think somebody had told me about it.  That there were

 8     about 50 people -- no, I know why.  Someone contacted Ilija and said that

 9     he was one of the ones that were being charged with crimes by -- I don't

10     know which crimes, by Croatia.  And it was actually one of these people

11     that was talking to Ilija.

12             Then I went and found it on the Internet and then they talked

13     about getting a lawyer.  And then that's how Ilija found that in 2006,

14     they had been found not guilty of any charges -- that Croatia had no

15     outstanding charges against them, and they were free of all prosecution.

16     They named 16 out of the 50 and Ilija was one of them.

17        Q.   And that was for the murder of Stevo Pulic, the Serb --

18        A.   It was all charges but were no outstanding charges against

19     Ilija Celar.

20        Q.   Let me ask you this -- if we could please go to tab 98, to 65 ter

21     number 6604.  If we could go to page -- towards page 3, please.  And the

22     subject line for that is:  International search for perpetrators of

23     criminal acts.

24        A.   Right.  I didn't see this.  I saw Interpol's red notice.  That's

25     what I saw.  But I've never seen that.


Page 10983

 1        Q.   And on -- on the second page -- sorry, the -- the next page after

 2     this one, and it describes the allegations regarding the ill-treatment of

 3     detainees at the end by Ilija Celar; do you see that?

 4        A.   I can see what it says, but I don't think it's true.

 5        Q.   You don't think it's true?

 6        A.   No.  Absolutely not.

 7        Q.   And if we go to the second page of this document, it describes

 8     Ilija Celar as a member of a special police unit, that he arrested the

 9     non-Serb population of Baranja, brought them to the prison and beat them.

10             Do you see that?

11        A.   Yes, I can see what it says.

12        Q.   And you say all of the charges were resolved in 2006.

13        A.   Yes.  And in 2011, Interpol wrote to us saying they were

14     withdrawing the red -- because they had nothing against him.

15             MS. BIERSAY:  Could we go to the last page of this document.  And

16     I believe the -- the page in B/C/S would be 105 in e-court page numbers.

17        Q.   Now, if we could just enlarge that a little bit, you can see that

18     this has Ilija Celar's name and his signature at the bottom?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you see that?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Is that his signature?

23        A.   Yes.  I would say yes, the one on the left is his signature.

24        Q.   Now, what says is "To Attorney Branko Nenadic from Darda, so he

25     may represent me in the criminal case before the county court in Osijek


Page 10984

 1     on the basis of a decision of 3 August 2009 concerning suspended criminal

 2     proceedings raised against me ..."

 3             Do you see that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   "And to submit this proposal and undertake all work according to

 6     the Law on Criminal Procedure in order to obtain a withdrawal of the

 7     international arrest warrant against Ilija Celar."

 8             Do you see that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And do you see the date at the bottom?

11        A.   2011.

12        Q.   Yes.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   So I'm a bit confused about you saying, on the one hand, that all

15     the charges were dismissed in 2006, and here is Ilija Celar asking for

16     the withdrawal of the international arrest warrant --

17        A.   That's right.  That's what we did it for because we had to -- in

18     order to get the withdrawal of the Interpol, we had to -- he had to prove

19     that that warrant was no longer outstanding, and that's why he employed

20     the lawyer to go and find out what was happening with the Osijek court.

21     And that's where I understood that they'd come to there -- that 9 -- 16

22     of them were published outside the court.  I thought it was 2006 because

23     we were a bit cross that nobody ever told us, that nobody went to Osijek

24     and -- it wasn't in a newspaper.  It was stuck on the building outside

25     the court, the decision of the court was made then.


Page 10985

 1        Q.   And it's based on that, you say, why this letter is being written

 2     by Ilija Celar?

 3        A.   Yes.  Because it was around 2011 that we started writing

 4     asking -- once we'd found out about the decision of 2006, we began

 5     writing to Interpol, asking them why this red notice was still in

 6     evidence, and then it took -- I don't know how long it took but it took a

 7     long time for their decision to come through, and he's got the decision.

 8        Q.   If you would be so kind, we would like a copy of that.

 9        A.   Absolutely.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I must tell you, Mrs. Celar, that the Prosecution

11     believes that, in fact, based on the information given, that Ilija Celar

12     did participate in the maltreatment of detainees at the Beli Manastir

13     police station.

14        A.   That is totally in opposition.  I know some did, but he didn't.

15        Q.   Other people did, but he did not?

16        A.   Well, he was one of a few that didn't.  And it took courage not

17     to, to go and protect -- it was not a particularly popular thing to do

18     but ...

19        Q.   Why wasn't it popular?

20        A.   Because there were some criminals doing things, like stealing

21     things and he would try and intervene.  I'm not talking about

22     ill-treatment by -- in the jail.  I'm talking about the criminal element

23     that were taking houses and everything and he -- cars.  He tried to stop

24     that.

25        Q.   But I am talking about killings and beatings --


Page 10986

 1        A.   I've told you --

 2        Q.   -- torture?

 3        A.   I do not believe that my husband would be involved in killings,

 4     beatings and torture.  Categorically not.

 5        Q.   I'd like to ask you --

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay --

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Before we eventually move to something else in

 9     that -- the document that is on the screen now, reference is made to --

10     and it's the basis of the document, the document says, "a decision of 3

11     August 2009 concerning suspended criminal proceedings raised against

12     me ..."

13             Do you have that 3 August 2009 decision, and do you know what is

14     referred to by "suspended criminal proceedings"?

15             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honours, I'll have to -- it's a very

16     voluminous document and I believe the document is contained in it.  It

17     hasn't been translated, if it is there, and I would like to verify,

18     again, my belief it is there before I say categorically that it is.

19             My understanding, which may be imperfect, is that by "suspension"

20     what they meant was as the accused were not available as they had left

21     the -- Croatia, the proceedings were suspended in time.  But that is my

22     understanding after a very quick review of the documents that we got in.

23     And in that regard, frankly, I will continue with the cross-examination

24     of Mrs. Celar, but it may be that we have -- after review of them, we may

25     need more time -- we may have more questions for Mrs. Celar at a later


Page 10987

 1     stage, if the Court understands.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  We do.

 3             MS. BIERSAY:

 4        Q.   Now, Madam Celar, you previously described how Serbs were

 5     dismissed from their jobs.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And you -- in Osijek.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And you also described how the names of certain streets were

10     changed.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   In Osijek, I believe.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Do you know where?

15        A.   No.  They weren't all in Osijek.  Some of them were in Zagreb, I

16     think.

17        Q.   And do I understand you correctly that the dismissals and the

18     change in the names and all of that gave you the sense that things were

19     becoming increasingly hostile?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   For Serbs?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Are you aware of the measures taken by the authorities in Baranja

24     regarding employment, THE right of return --

25        A.   No --


Page 10988

 1        Q.   -- and the change of names?

 2             I'd like to take a look at 2157.  P, excuse me.  Which is tab 29.

 3     And, first, I'd like to go to the last page.

 4             And do you see that this is signed by Borivoje Zivanovic?  Do you

 5     see the name in the lower --

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, this is right after the take-over of Beli Manastir and in

 8     the Baranja area generally.  And do you see it is entitled "On

 9     termination of employment and prohibition to return and stay in Baranja,

10     all persons who were in the enemy forces and people who helped them and

11     their immediate families."

12             Do you see that?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And in the first article, --

15        A.   Actually, it's in Serbian.  Here it is.

16        Q.   In the first article, you see that:  "The decision regulates the

17     issue of employment termination and prohibition to return and stay in

18     Baranja ... all persons who were in enemy units on the Baranja territory,

19     to their collaborators as well as to their immediate family members."

20        A.   Yes, I can see that.

21        Q.   So would you agree that that appears to relate to the termination

22     of employment for family members of people suspected to be --

23        A.   Yes --

24        Q.    -- in enemy units?  Were you aware that such restrictions had

25     been put on family members?


Page 10989

 1        A.   No.  Because I only knew -- all the people I mention in Osijek, I

 2     knew them personally and they came to see us.  But I don't know -- I've

 3     never seen that.  I wasn't aware of this.

 4                 MS. BIERSAY:  And if we could move to the next tab, P30,

 5     which is tab 30, P2158.

 6                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honour, before I continued, I wondered if I

 8     could have an indication of how much time I've used so far.

 9             Just a technical time-keeping issue, Mrs. Celar, if you could

10     just bear with me.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  [Microphone not activated] two and a half hours,

12     Ms. Biersay.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.

14        Q.   And, again, this is around 24 September 1991 and it's a decision,

15     again, on the termination of employment for all persons who openly

16     supported the overthrown regime of the Republic of Croatia.

17             And do you see at the bottom, Mr. Borivoje Zivanovic's name?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did you know about this decision?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   And I'll direct your attention to the first article:  "This

22     decision regulates the termination of employment of all persons who

23     openly supported the overthrown regime of the Republic of Croatia and

24     who, if they remain at their place of employment, would disturb the

25     formal work process or irritate other employees, which could lead to


Page 10990

 1     serious, specific and political problems, regardless of their ethnic or

 2     religious affiliations."

 3             So did you know that people were targeted based on the perception

 4     of whether or not they supported the overthrown regime?

 5        A.   Well, I wasn't there then, again, and I think when I was there he

 6     wasn't president, he was mayor.

 7        Q.   So you didn't know about this type of legislation?

 8        A.   No.  Because if I had, I would have -- I did have a meeting with

 9     him, Borivoje Zivanovic, about attacks on Croats and asked him to go on

10     the radio and ask people not to do it because surely they didn't want to

11     behave the way the Croatians behaved in Osijek, and surely they would not

12     want the world to see Serbia in that light.

13        Q.   And did he often go on Radio Beli Manastir?

14        A.   I don't know.

15        Q.   Is that the radio station [Overlapping speakers] ...

16        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ... I didn't have a meeting with him at

17     the radio station.

18        Q.   Where was he?

19        A.   I went to his office and asked him if he would and he said it

20     wasn't possible.

21        Q.   Had you asked him to go on the radio -- and which radio is that?

22     I'm assuming it's --

23        A.   It would have been the local radio.

24        Q.   Beli Manastir --

25        A.   I wasn't specific.  I said could he make an appeal that people


Page 10991

 1     could -- the fighting was over at that point.  Could they -- or I'm not

 2     sure it was over or not, but could he please appeal to people's decency

 3     not to attack.  It was at the time of the Ratkajec family, and I was

 4     deeply disturbed by their unhappiness, and I went there with Ilija to ask

 5     him to make an appeal.

 6        Q.   Which radio station did you have in mind that he would make the

 7     appeal on?

 8        A.   Well, I didn't think about it.  I would have supposed it would be

 9     Baranja, the one in Beli Manastir.

10        Q.   Had you heard him on the radio before?

11        A.   No.  I didn't listen to the radio.

12             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honours, this would be -- I know it's a little

13     bit earlier but this would be a good time for me before I start the next

14     document.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Ms. Biersay.

16             We take our first break.  Thirty minutes.  Court adjourned.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18                           --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Biersay.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I know the witness is

22     being brought in --

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Oh, I'm sorry.

24             MS. BIERSAY:  It's okay.  It's actually good because I wanted to

25     give the e-court pages for the B/C/S document that you asked about in the


Page 10992

 1     files relating to Ilija Celar.  And specifically they're e-court pages

 2     109 to 113, but my understanding is that the Defence may be addressing it

 3     later anyway.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Ms. Biersay, please proceed.

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   I'd like to now show you Exhibit P2159, which is tab 31.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That seems to be under seal, Ms. Biersay; is that

 9     right?

10             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  So not to be broadcast.

12             MS. BIERSAY:  If we could go to the third page.

13        Q.   Did -- thank you.

14             Did -- did you hear about people being given notice through the

15     media that they had to leave --

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   -- the area?  I'd like to direct your attention to this document,

18     which is attached to a decision to terminate employment and what the

19     decision states is:  "We hereby notify you that you must leave the area

20     of Baranja within 24 hours because you were involved in some way with the

21     HDZ and assisted the Ustasha authorities.  All those who were involved in

22     any way have been informed through the media that they must leave."

23             "In order for everyone to be aware that this relates to you or

24     your family, go in full view of everyone so that you do not end up dead.

25             "Good-bye, Ustasha."


Page 10993

 1             Mrs. Celar, I wondered in reading this, is this the kind of

 2     document -- decision that would encourage someone to stay?

 3        A.   No, it's horrible.

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  And if we could now turn to Exhibit P2160, which is

 5     exhibit -- excuse me, it's tab 32.  And if we could go to the third page,

 6     please.

 7        Q.   While that's coming up on the screen, Mrs. Celar, you talked

 8     about how you, with the right paperwork, could come and go to Baranja?

 9        A.   Not exactly come and go.  I had to go and ask for an exit and

10     then when I returned, ask for an entry.

11        Q.   Were you ever refused entry?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   I'd like to turn your attention to this decision.  And at the

14     bottom, you'll see that it has been signed by President

15     Borivoje Zivanovic.

16        A.   Yes, I can see that.

17        Q.   And at the top, there he's listed as president and you'll see at

18     the top, it says:  "At the fourth session held on 18 October 1991, the

19     Executive Council of Beli Manastir," and it describes them adopting this

20     decision.

21             And this decision is to ban from returning all persons who failed

22     to return to Beli Manastir municipality by 25 September 1991.

23             Article 1 reads that:  "All persons, regardless of their

24     ethnicity and religion, who failed to return to the area of Beli Manastir

25     municipality by 25 September 1991 ..."


Page 10994

 1             And at the end:  "... shall be banned from returning."

 2             So were you aware that persons who had not returned to the

 3     municipality by that date --

 4        A.   No, because a lot of them came back later and they were Serbs

 5     who'd gone while the fighting was going on.  I know several people who

 6     didn't come back until later or even the next year.

 7        Q.   And when say "several people" you mean Serb fighters?

 8        A.   No, I mean Serbs who weren't fighters.  A Serbian lawyer friend

 9     of ours, he didn't come back until, oh, it was December or maybe later.

10     And a lot of the families that went to Prigrevica.  I don't think they

11     came back within that date.

12        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ...

13        A.   There's others as well.

14        Q.   It's our position, the Prosecution's position, that that was

15     especially targeting non-Serbs?

16        A.   I don't know.  I know of others that came back.  In fact, my

17     brother-in-law came back and he was Croat.

18        Q.   And when did he come back?

19        A.   Not in this year, because he was there all the time.  And then he

20     left to go and visit - I can't remember the date - he went to visit his

21     mother in Zagreb because they were ill.  Then he was arrested in Croatia

22     and then he came back into Serbia, but I don't know the year.  It's -- I

23     wrote about it to a newspaper, but, I'm sorry, I just can't recall the

24     date.  But he was -- that's one I knew about that wasn't a Serb.  They

25     came from Hungary, not Batina.


Page 10995

 1        Q.   And if you compare the ones that you knew about, the Serbs versus

 2     non-Serbs, would you say more Serbs came back?

 3        A.   I can't say because I didn't know that many of them.

 4        Q.   You didn't know --

 5        A.   I knew that many Serbs but I don't -- I wasn't aware that a lot

 6     of them had even left.  When I met them in the town, I didn't know they'd

 7     been somewhere else so -- unless they told me.  So I can't really give

 8     a -- an opinion on that with any certainty.

 9        Q.   I'd like to now turn your attention to P -- Exhibit P2161, which

10     is tab 33.

11             And while it's coming up, I'll tell you this is a decision by the

12     Executive Council of Beli Manastir, and the purpose of decision is to

13     change the street names in the town of Beli Manastir.

14             Were you aware that the names of the streets changed by decision

15     of the Executive Council?

16        A.   I didn't notice.  I've seen this list since, and some of them are

17     Communist names or celebrating victories of Tito, et cetera.  They're not

18     all people.  But I wasn't aware of it at the time.

19        Q.   And if I could direct your attention on the first page, for

20     example, to 14, 15, and 16, the Vojvoda's names?

21        A.   Well, Vladimir Lenin.  That's Lenin's name, 15, and I think they

22     mean Vladimir Ilic Lenin, the Russian.

23        Q.   That's in the current street name column.  If you go ...

24        A.   Oh, I see, to the opposite.  I was looking at the wrong one, I'm

25     sorry.


Page 10996

 1        Q.   To the opposite -- yes.

 2        A.   I'm sorry, yes.  Yes, Dukes they changed it to.  From Dukes.

 3        Q.   And Dukes are associated with what period of time of Serbian

 4     history; do you know?

 5        A.   Well, Vojvoda wasn't exactly a duke.  I think it was something

 6     awarded for bravery in battle.  It could date back to Kosovo, I suppose.

 7     I'm not sure.  We translate it as "dukes," but it's sort of a honorary

 8     title.

 9        Q.   And at the time -- you said you've seen this list since.  Did you

10     know about the change of the street names at the time that it occurred?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Now in your statement, in paragraph 53 - and I think you were

13     also asked about this on direct - you talked about the desire of Serb

14     refugees to come to Baranja, and you reference that it may have -- "their

15     desire may have been a result of family relations or desire to stay as

16     close as possible to the places from which they had fled."

17             Do you see?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Are you aware that various people associated with the Serbian

20     authorities in Baranja invited Serb refugees to come to Baranja?

21        A.   Well, not -- I didn't notice that.  I wasn't aware that there

22     were invitations being sent out.  I just thought they came because they'd

23     got nowhere else to go.

24        Q.   And I'd like to turn to Exhibit P165, tab 5.  And I believe

25     the -- this document is dated around the fall of Vukovar from


Page 10997

 1     November 1991.

 2             Let me ask you this while this is being prepared.  Have you heard

 3     of Rade Leskovac?

 4        A.   Could I see that written?

 5        Q.   Sure.

 6        A.   Rade.

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   And if we could go to the second-to-last paragraph.  Can you see

10     that:  "We do not accept ..."

11        A.   Right, yes.

12        Q.   I'm interested in the last sentence of that paragraph:  "We

13     inform all Serbs, whose houses have been burnt and destroyed, that they

14     can come back to the liberated territory.  In Baranja only, there are 17

15     villages to be populated."

16             So you weren't familiar that kind of --

17        A.   No.  It was a -- what's the date of this?

18        Q.   This is after the fall of Vukovar.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   In November of 1991.

21        A.   Well, I was only there for three weeks at the end of October and

22     November, and it was dark and it was cold, and there was a lot of

23     shelling.  So I didn't really -- I don't even think I went into the town.

24     It was awful.

25        Q.   What's interesting, Mrs. Celar, is, on the one hand, you have


Page 10998

 1     these discriminatory policies that I just showed you, getting people out

 2     of their jobs and out of the -- the Baranja area, and, at the same time,

 3     inviting Serb refugees to come in.

 4        A.   It's not a -- it's not a situation that I either knew about or

 5     thought about at that time, or I would have spoken up about it.

 6        Q.   I'd like to talk briefly about the Ratkajec family.

 7        A.   Ratkajec.

 8        Q.   Ratkajec family.  That you discuss in your -- in your statement.

 9     Was there more than one Ratkajec family in the area?

10        A.   There could have been.  It was a particular one that I knew that

11     were living in the area where -- there were two families in the -- well,

12     there were two houses in their garden in Beli Manastir.

13        Q.   Do you know their first names at all?

14        A.   I can't remember now.  There was -- grandmother, grandfather,

15     wife, her husband gone to Osijek, and the two boys.

16        Q.   In one house?

17        A.   No.  The new house belonged to the mother with their two sons,

18     and the other house was the grandfather and grandmother; they lived

19     there.  But I think they moved together eventually to live together.

20        Q.   In one house?

21        A.   Yes.  In the bigger of the houses.  Excuse me, this was a -- in

22     the big house, they had a flat upstairs as well.  I think this -- so I

23     would imagine at some time the family -- it appeared that the family had

24     been down stairs and upstairs was a separate flat, and then they built

25     the house in the garden.


Page 10999

 1        Q.   Does the street Franza Liszta sound familiar.  Is that where they

 2     lived?

 3        A.   All I know it was near the November the 20th Street, very close

 4     to there, but I can't actually tell you the name of their straight.

 5        Q.   So you don't know -- you don't remember the exact street in which

 6     they lived.

 7        A.   Not there, no.  We had friends in the November 20th, and they

 8     lived a little bit further on the main road.  That was sort of a side

 9     street and they lived further up on the corner of the two roads, I think.

10        Q.   And you were saying that you helped them in April of 1992 --

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   -- to regulate an issue with the --

13        A.   -- I think it was, if I've put it here.

14        Q.   And you say that people from the JNA were placed on roof-tops to

15     try to find the perpetrators who had thrown grenades --

16        A.   Just over the Easter period when they'd been threatened with

17     death.  We went to the police who didn't do anything, and so then we went

18     to appeal to General Adzic -- General Krstic who I'd been at those

19     meetings with, and he said he would put two -- just for that -- whether

20     it was one day or two days.  I volunteered to go and sleep there.  Ilija

21     said that we would patrol the street and make it known that I was

22     sleeping there, and the army promised to put these soldiers to cover that

23     area.  For that specific time when the specific threat had been made,

24     which was over Easter.

25        Q.   I'm asking you this because, according to the information we


Page 11000

 1     have, the Ratkajecs, who did live on two properties that were essentially

 2     connected, that both houses were inhabited by the family until

 3     August 1992?

 4        A.   Right.

 5        Q.   And the information we have is that in August 1992, one of the

 6     families they were forced because of explosions and threats to leave

 7     their homes --

 8        A.   They didn't.

 9        Q.   -- in one house and you're saying --

10        A.   They didn't leave, because Mr. Ratkajec before -- the grandfather

11     told me that before --

12        Q.   I'm not finished.

13        A.   Sorry.

14        Q.   That in one house the family with two children, they had to leave

15     in August of 1992.  So up until August in 1992 both houses were inhabited

16     by the Ratkajec family.

17        A.   Okay.

18        Q.   And that it was after August 1992 that the second house was

19     inhabited by Serb refugees.

20        A.   It didn't actually happen like that.  That second house -- I

21     slept in that second house during that Easter time.

22        Q.   And it was empty according to you?

23        A.   Well, they sort of used both houses and the grandfather was in --

24     and grandmother was were in a very, very nervous state.  And in fact when

25     the -- and I really think that they moved together because they were


Page 11001

 1     frightened.  When I went to visit them, they would be sitting in the big

 2     house.

 3        Q.   I understand.  We'll look some more into that.

 4        A.   Yeah.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6        A.   Excuse me, I thought you meant they'd left the -- the area

 7     entirely, that they weren't living in either house anymore.  That's what

 8     I thought you meant.

 9        Q.   That one of the families living in the house, they were forced

10     out of their house in August of 1992 because of grenades being thrown

11     into their yard and because of threats that they received.

12        A.   That's not actually what happened.  Because those grenades were.

13     Thrown in -- I went round to see it -- into the kitchen.  But it was --

14     there wasn't a lot of damage, it was a window, and it was repaired.  But

15     they were living in both -- they were sleeping more with the

16     grandparents.  They felt safer together.

17        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  In your -- your statement, you describe a lot

18     happening in Baranja.

19        A.   Yeah.

20        Q.   Now, in your statement, you also described these threats and

21     explosions that were happening in April of 1992 in Beli Manastir.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And it's also around that time that UNPROFOR was supposed to

24     assume responsibility in that area.

25        A.   Yes.


Page 11002

 1        Q.   Did you know that there was, in fact, a spike in crimes around

 2     the time that UNPROFOR was about to take responsibility for the area?

 3        A.   No, I remember about that time that before they were -- had their

 4     mandate, that they -- there was the big battle and that's where

 5     everybody -- there could have been.  Yes, because the men were -- it also

 6     coincided with the fact that the men from all the families were sent to

 7     the front line on the Drava, and the older men were guarding the water

 8     installations.  And all the women, we were all on our own in the houses.

 9     And I think I gave testimony before that that's when I had all my

10     livestock stolen at night, and a shop was broken into and our camera was

11     stolen.  That was about that time.  Because there was nobody about in the

12     town.

13        Q.   Let me be more specific.  Are you aware that the violent crimes

14     against non-Serbs spiked around the time that UNPROFOR was about do

15     assume responsibility in the area?

16        A.   No, crime in general, I thought was, stealing from people and

17     trying to steal people's cars.

18        Q.   And did you know that this pattern of the escalation of crimes

19     was repeated in areas outside of Baranja did you have any information --

20        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ...

21        Q.   So you wouldn't know that in Christmas and Easter of 1992, the

22     Dalj Croats were driven out of their homes and taken to Osijek by bus.

23     Did you know that?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   And did you know that also in Easter of 1992, the Croats and


Page 11003

 1     Hungarians were forced onto buses and expelled from Erdut by men in

 2     military camouflage?

 3        A.   No, because I had never been in Erdut and I've never been to

 4     Dalj, but I knew about Ratkajec and their problems.

 5        Q.   Did you know about the expulsions of non-Serbs around the same

 6     time in places like Dzacovski [phoen], Caric, Tovarnik?

 7        A.   I don't know.  I thought was in Bosnia, Tovarnik.  I don't

 8     know -- where is that, Tovarnik?

 9        Q.   So you've never --

10        A.   I think it's in Bosnia.  I don't know.  I didn't think it was in

11     Baranja.

12        Q.   So I'd -- put it to you --

13        A.   I don't recognise it, excuse me, sorry.

14        Q.   So you don't recognise it.  I'm putting to you, Mrs. Celar, that

15     you were not in a position to know if Serbs were being mistreated

16     throughout the SBWS showing a pattern of crimes against them; right?

17        A.   I don't understand the question.  Serbs --

18        Q.   You don't know if crimes were being committed against non-Serbs

19     in other places --

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   -- in a similar pattern?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   And you don't know if there's a pattern in timing of the crimes

24     against non-Serbs in other places and whether it's similar timing to what

25     was happening in Baranja?

 


Page 11004

 1        A.   No.

 2             MS. BIERSAY:  I have no further questions at this time.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Ms. Biersay.

 4             Mr. Gosnell, re-direct.

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6                           Re-examination by Mr. Gosnell:

 7        Q.   Good morning, Mrs. Celar.

 8        A.   Good morning.

 9        Q.   Just a few questions to follow up on what has been asked you by

10     the Prosecutor.

11             If we could have, please, 65 ter 6604 on the screen, please.  And

12     if we could start with the first page for a few moments and then we'll

13     turn over to page 5 of the English.

14             Do you remember, Mrs. Celar, earlier today having seen this

15     document?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And then, please, if we can go to page 5 in the English.

18             And there's this reference in the letter that appears to have

19     been sent by Ilija Celar to an attorney, to "a decision of 3rd

20     August 2009 concerning suspended criminal proceedings raised against me

21     under Article 120 of the basic criminal law of the Republic of Croatia."

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And then what you were asked at page 31 and then your answer

24     followed was:

25             "Q.  So I'm a bit confused about you saying, on the one hand,


Page 11005

 1     that all the charges were dismissed in 2006 and here is Ilija Celar

 2     asking for the withdrawal of the international arrest warrant."

 3             Your answer:  "That's right.  That's what we did it for because

 4     we had to -- in order to get the withdrawal of the Interpol, we had to

 5     prove that the warrant was no longer outstanding and that's why he

 6     employed the lawyer to go and find out what was happening with the Osijek

 7     court.  I thought it was 2006 because we were a bit cross that nobody

 8     ever told us -- that nobody went to Osijek, and it wasn't in a

 9     newspaper."

10             Is it possible - and here's my question - is it possible that

11     rather than it being 2006 it was, in fact, 2009 that you were informed of

12     this?

13        A.   Perfectly possible because one of the dates is wrong, I feel,

14     because Ilija only went to one lawyer to investigate any charges.  So

15     either my date is wrong or that date's wrong.

16        Q.   Could we please move to page 111 in the B/C/S.  And,

17     unfortunately, there is no translation of this in English, so, if I may,

18     I would like to the assistance of my learned colleague to read out a

19     specific portion which we suggest corresponds to the reference on page 5

20     of the translated portion, and answer that it could be interpreted, of

21     course, by the interpreters.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  With your permission, Your Honour, I would omit

24     about 15 names which are irrelevant for this case, if --

25             [Interpretation] In the name of the Republic of Croatia,


Page 11006

 1     decision, the district court in Osijek, Judge Zvonko Vekic, Presiding

 2     Judge in the criminal case against the accused Svetislav Branic et al,

 3     because of the crime mentioned in Article 120, paragraph 1, of the basic

 4     criminal law of the Republic of Croatia" --

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please slow down when you're reading.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] "(NN number 31/93, 108/95, and

 7     28/96."

 8             Further on:  "... OKZ RH) in connection with the indictment

 9     issued by the District State Prosecutor's office in Osijek, number KT

10     136/94, dated the 3rd of April, 2001, on the 3rd of August, 2009 has

11     decided as follows:  On the basis of Article 291, paragraph 1, item 2 of

12     the Law on Criminal Procedure (NN number 110/97, 27/98, 58/99, 112/99,

13     58/02, 148/02 and 115/06, further on referred to as ZKP), is halting

14     criminal proceedings against ... 52, the accused, Ilija Celar ... for the

15     following reasons:  In the period between August 1991 and March 1993, in

16     Beli Manastir and other locations in the territory of Baranja, during the

17     armed rebellion of the local Serb population against the constitutional

18     legal order of the Republic of Croatia and attacks of the JNA and

19     paramilitary units from Serbia against the Republic of Croatia, with the

20     intention of establishing an occupation system of government in the area

21     of Baranja, preventing the re-establishment of the Croatian

22     constitutional order, and in order to annex all of Baranja to the

23     so-called Greater Serbia, they joined together and armed and with

24     military equipment, together with several other rebels during the course

25     of August 1991, at first, took part in the establishment of a para-police


Page 11007

 1     body of government, the so-called Secretariat for Internal Affairs,

 2     Beli Manastir, and the toppling and persecution of legal local organs of

 3     government.  Furthermore, as members of the aforementioned secretariat,

 4     namely, the accused [In English].

 5             I omit all the names but the name of Ilija Celar.

 6             "... as members of the special-purposes unit [In English] "Ilija

 7     Celar ..." the other names after him [Interpretation] "... as members of

 8     the so-called police pursuant to orders issued to them by their

 9     superiors, carried out ungrounded searches of houses and apartments,

10     which were illegal, as well as the arrests of the civilian population of

11     Baranja of non-Serb ethnicity.  They also brought in prisoners to the

12     premises of the aforementioned secretariat, they questioned the

13     prisoners, all the while insulting them and ill-treating them physically

14     and mentally.  They intimidated the non-Serbian population of Baranja and

15     they confiscated valuable assets.  Therefore, they participated in the

16     armed rebellion which was aimed at undermining the constitutional state

17     order and/or security of the Republic of Croatia.  And, in that way,

18     committed a crime against the Republic of Croatia - around rebellion - as

19     described and punishable pursuant to Article 235, paragraph 1, of the

20     penal code of the Republic of Croatia.

21             "Statement of reasons:  By the indictment issued of -- by the

22     county prosecutor's office in Osijek, number KT 1936/94 dated 3

23     April 2001, Svetislav Branic and others (a total of 58 accused) were

24     charged for crimes against humanity and the international law, war crime

25     against a civilian population pursuant to Article 120, paragraph 1, of


Page 11008

 1     the penal code of the Republic of Croatia.

 2             "On 16 July 2009, the county prosecutor's office in Osijek issued

 3     a document and changed the factual and legal description of the

 4     indictment with regard to the accused listed in the preamble of this

 5     decision, thereby charging them with committing a crime against the

 6     Republic of Croatia - armed rebellion - pursuant to Article 235,

 7     paragraph 1, of the penal code of the Republic of Croatia.

 8             "At the same time, by the same document, the county's

 9     prosecutor's office from Osijek has suggested that by applying Articles 1

10     and 2, paragraph 2, of the Law on General Pardon, the proceedings against

11     the aforementioned accused should be stopped.

12             "Since, in the preamble of this decision, the aforementioned

13     accused have been charged with a crime of armed rebellion, pursuant to

14     Article 235, paragraph 1 of the penal code of the Republic of Croatia,

15     which has been comprised by the Law on General Pardon (NN number 80/96),

16     this court has established that the proposal of the county state

17     prosecutor's office from Osijek is granted, and that there are hindrances

18     obstructing the continuation of the proceedings pursuant Article 353,

19     paragraph 6, of the Law on Criminal Proceedings."

20             [In English] I believe it is the relevant part of this document.

21             MR. GOSNELL:

22        Q.   Now, Mrs. Celar, that was -- that was quite a lengthy legal

23     discussion, but I just want to try, if I may, to highlight a couple of

24     aspects of it and see if it jogs your memory about whether any of these

25     things were mentioned by Ilija Celar to you.  And the first aspect is do


Page 11009

 1     you recall whether he mentioned to you that there had been any

 2     recommendation by the prosecutor in Osijek county to drop the charges of

 3     war crimes and crimes against humanity?

 4        A.   I don't actually understand what the question is, I'm sorry.

 5        Q.   Well, let me situate this in --

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, your microphone, please.  It's

 7     okay now.  Thank you.

 8             MR. GOSNELL:

 9        Q.   Perhaps can I situate this in respect of your answer to the

10     Prosecution -- to a question and it was at page 29, line 21.  It's not on

11     the page in front of you, Mrs. Celar, it's what you said earlier today --

12        A.   Right.

13        Q.   And leaving aside the date, you said it was your recollection

14     that Ilija Celar had been found not guilty?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And now what I'm attempting to do is explore a little further and

17     I'm asking whether, did you also hear from Ilija Celar whether preceding

18     a final determination on being found not guilty do you remember whether

19     he mentioned that the charges were recommended to be dropped by the

20     Croatian authorities?  And you may not remember that at all but I'm just

21     asking if that --

22        A.   I don't exactly remember a lot about that.

23        Q.   Can you recall whether Ilija Celar had a document with him or

24     received a document pertaining to any of this --

25        A.   When?  Recently?


Page 11010

 1        Q.   No.  I'm referring to the time-period when he informed you about

 2     the charges either being dropped or being found not guilty.

 3        A.   The information came back from the lawyer and from other people

 4     on that list.  They rang first and then I think he confirmed it with his

 5     lawyer.  Excuse me, I don't think he had a lawyer then.  They rang him

 6     and said that there'd been a decision, and then Ilija wanted to clarify

 7     what had been happening.

 8        Q.   You just said that he heard from other people on that list --

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Did you -- do I understand correctly, then, that you mean other

11     people telephoned him having heard about this --

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   -- development?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And did you ever learn whether the Interpol arrest warrant was,

16     in fact, suppressed or he was removed from any --

17        A.   I read it.  I read their notification.  I've read the -- and

18     helped him write the letter that said, Here is my paperwork from -- it's

19     a different paper to this.  Through the lawyer, he got something which

20     confirmed there were no outstanding charges against him and we sent that

21     paperwork to France.  And then France replied and said they would

22     investigate.  And I think it was six months later he got a letter to say

23     that they had removed his name from the -- their red list there because

24     they had nothing to -- they'd checked and there was nothing that they

25     had -- no request to arrest him.  Something -- terminology like that.


Page 11011

 1        Q.   And when you say that he received this document through the

 2     lawyer, that he got something, was that something from Croatia?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   At today's transcript earlier this -- this morning at page 38,

 5     you were discussing having spoken to Mr. Zivanovic.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And you said that you were speaking to Mr. Zivanovic in the

 8     context of the troubles that the Ratkajec family were having.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you said that he said to you that it wasn't possible to go on

11     the radio as you suggested.

12        A.   Yeah -- well, I don't know whether he meant the radio or it

13     wasn't possible to change what was happening.

14        Q.   Can you explain a little more fully --

15        A.   I got the impression he was --

16        Q.   -- what it was, Mrs. Celar -- and just wait until the end of my

17     question or else it won't be transcribed and translated.

18             Did he tell you anything else on that occasion or explain more

19     fully what he meant?

20        A.   Well, I gave him quite a talking to and Ilija translated it so

21     there wasn't any misinterpretation of what I was saying.  And I thought

22     he was sort of a powerless name.  I don't know whether he cared or not,

23     but he just shrugged really and said, I can't do anything.

24             My impression was that he was ineffective.  At that moment, what

25     I was asking him for, he wouldn't give me any reassurances at all.


Page 11012

 1        Q.   And why wouldn't -- what was your impression of why he wouldn't

 2     give you those reassurances?

 3        A.   I don't think he could control what was happening because the

 4     actions that were in -- in -- in my opinion, having not seen any of these

 5     orders, I really thought that the actions being carried out against

 6     Croatians was by criminals because they only targeted people with big

 7     houses or big cars, and my opinion was that they were a criminal

 8     undertaking that was carrying out these acts.

 9        Q.   May we now have, please --

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell, before we move to something else --

11             Mrs. Celar, when your husband was translating or interpreting

12     what you said in English in Serbian to Mr. Zivanovic, did you understand

13     what he said?

14             THE WITNESS:  I understood the -- my grammar is appalling in

15     Serbian but I can generally understand 95 per cent of what is said in the

16     terminology.  I just don't know how to implement the male and female

17     gender variations.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

19             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please continue Mr. Gosnell.

21             MR. GOSNELL:  May we now have 06568, which is Prosecution tab 90.

22        Q.   And, Mrs. Celar, this is coming up on screen in front of you, the

23     transcript of your television interview which was shown to you yesterday.

24             Do you remember being shown that?

25        A.   I remember the interview.


Page 11013

 1        Q.   And if we please could go to page 2.  There's a portion where you

 2     are recorded as -- transcribed as having said:  "I believe that Tudjman

 3     is capable of sacrificing his own refugees as a excuse to attack us.  I

 4     know it is hard to leave your house but many of the local Croats were

 5     living in German-owned houses for being good Communists."

 6             And then you described or responded to a question from the

 7     Prosecution and this starts at page 10.948, line 9, and you were asked

 8     some questions which I will not go over here because you -- it's already

 9     recorded.  But you mentioned it was also a time and I'm quoting of

10     "tremendously stressful that time, very stressful that time."

11             And then you are reminded or the Prosecution says to you that

12     this is September 1992.

13             Now, what I'm interested in is that first sentence of the two

14     from the transcript where you say:  "I believe that Tudjman is capable of

15     sacrificing his own refugees as an excuse to attack us," why - if you

16     recall - did you say that at the time?  What is the connection between

17     the two?

18        A.   I cannot understand why I said that.  Taken in the whole of what

19     I was saying then was -- the whole emphasis of my letters to newspapers

20     was to, I thought that the -- most of people were in ignorance of the

21     history of the area and that it was a very strong feeling of Serbs

22     that -- I'll repeat it again.  It's not being against ethnic groups.

23     They just really believed it was part of Serbia.  And it seemed to be at

24     that time that there was tremendous bias against Serbia.

25             I know there was paranoia, but everybody really believed that


Page 11014

 1     places like Germany were against Serbia and that the plan for Croatia to

 2     do what it did had been long in the making.  And everybody in Baranja

 3     thought -- the Serbs that I knew and talked to, and my husband.  Felt

 4     defensive, not as if they were the aggressors.  And it seemed to be an

 5     awful injustice the way things were being reported outside.  But I can't

 6     answer the -- why I said that, I have no idea.  I don't know what it

 7     means.

 8             MR. GOSNELL:  May we have, please, 65 ter 05259.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  Excuse me, is there a tab number for this?

10             MR. GOSNELL:  There's no tab number.

11             MS. BIERSAY:  I'm sorry, I -- I don't believe I received notice

12     that the Defence would be using this in re-direct, so if I could have an

13     opportunity to review it.

14             MR. GOSNELL:  Just to note here for the record, Mr. President,

15     that the issue of notice of documents on re-direct was litigated during

16     the presentation of the Prosecution case, in particular, in respect of

17     Witness GH168, a transcript reference page is page 8519.  Documents were

18     presented to that witness on re-direct with no notice to the Defence.

19     Objections were raised, they were resisted by the Prosecution, and then

20     those objections were overruled.  And I'm guided by that -- by those

21     rulings in presenting this document.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I didn't hear Ms. Biersay objecting, Mr. Gosnell.

23             MR. GOSNELL:  Quite right, Mr. President.  I simply wanted to

24     explain why I have proceeded in this manner.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That would then have given a little bit of time


Page 11015

 1     to Ms. Biersay to look into the document.

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  May I proceed or should I wait?

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay, can we proceed?

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  Sorry.  If could I have just 90 seconds, I'd be

 5     grateful.

 6             Thank you.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Gosnell.

 8             MR. GOSNELL:

 9        Q.   Now, this is a document which is dated 26 September 1992.  The

10     front page doesn't concern you, Mrs. Celar, but if we could turn over to

11     page 2.  And I'll read from this memorandum which appears to have been

12     recording a conversation between officials of UNPROFOR and officials of

13     Croatia.

14             And it says:  "There were two brigades of special police in

15     Sector East that had not been disarmed; therefore, Sector East cannot be

16     considered as having been demilitarised."

17             Then it talks about de-mining.

18             "And the Vance Plan does not allow for consideration of the

19     return of the refugees until security could be guaranteed.  He" -- and

20     this appears to be a reference, just for your information to the UNPROFOR

21     sector commander:

22             "He then cited two documents to further demonstrate that the

23     situation in Sector East is such that the return of the refugees can not

24     be allowed now.  These documents were the release concerning the meeting

25     of the Secretary-General and President Tudjman and his order from the


Page 11016

 1     Force Commander.

 2             "He continued by emphasizing that the return of the refugees was

 3     the responsibility of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees

 4     and that the return will be conducted in an orderly manner, and that than

 5     UNPROFOR will assist UNHCR, especially with security arrangements."

 6             Then if we could move, please, to page 3.

 7             Mr. Glavas, do you know who -- -

 8        A.   Oh yes I know who he is.

 9        Q.   And who was he?

10        A.   Well, I met him socially at first.  He used to use the same

11     restaurant as us.  He used to play cards there.  And then when we left, I

12     heard that he was -- I don't know exactly his position but sort of the

13     mayor.  When I first knew him, he didn't have any position at all.  In

14     Osijek I met him.

15        Q.   He was the mayor of what?

16        A.   Osijek, I think.  Sorry.

17        Q.   Mr. Glavas replied that the Croatian civilians -- and here I'm

18     not going to read the entire thing, but he's talking about essentially

19     some refugees being returned to Baranja, non-Serb or Croatian refugees:

20             "Mr. Glavas replied that the Croatian civilians will be

21     accompanied by police and civil authorities will take charge.  He was not

22     asking a return to villages that had been populated 50-50 per cent, but

23     to villages that had been 100 per cent Croatian.  He was insisting on

24     return to only four villages in Beli Manastir, to Bilje only at this

25     time.


Page 11017

 1             Now if we can turn to the third -- or the fourth page of this

 2     document in e-court that last point about Bilje is specifically

 3     addressed.

 4             "Point 3, (return to villages suggested and picked by the

 5     refugees) while sounding attractive, could be quite dangerous.  If Bilje

 6     is handed over, would that mean that the boundary would be pushed back

 7     into Baranja since Croatian police - armed - would be empowered, as

 8     suggested to assume law and order functions?  Similarly, if the four

 9     contiguous villages to the south were secured for them, would that also

10     mean that a substantial tract would that similarly carved out?  Then step

11     by step, Croatia would retake parts of its territory."

12             My question is, and it relates back to what you said during your

13     interview when you said:  "I believe that Tudjman is capable of

14     sacrificing his own refugees as an excuse to attack us."  My question ask

15     does this --

16        A.   It could have related to this.  It could have related to that if

17     it was a force -- well, not force, but bringing people back in.

18        Q.   Were you aware of these -- or the proposal to have Croatian

19     police --

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   -- armed Croatian police accompany the return of refugees to

22     Baranja at the time were you aware of that?

23        A.   That -- we discussed that because this is when we started talking

24     about leaving.

25        Q.   Was that prospect something that you were alarmed by?


Page 11018

 1        A.   Absolutely.

 2        Q.   And why?

 3        A.   Well, when -- I feared a return by the Croatian forces because to

 4     say I didn't think they would come in an orderly manner is true.  I never

 5     thought that they'd come in -- I thought they -- my neighbour warned me.

 6     My Croatian neighbour, Ella said to me, and I never forgot it, on 3rd of

 7     April when the attack was happening -- in some strange way the telephones

 8     between Osijek and Beli Manastir worked for a long time.  Anyway she had

 9     a message that we had to go and hide in the kukura [phoen], in the corn

10     fields.  The stalks were all brown.  They hadn't harvested them that

11     year.  So she came to me and said, Amanda, you must come and we'll go and

12     hide in the corn fields.  And I said well, can we take everybody?  And

13     really, why?  And she said, because when they come, they're going to kill

14     everybody here.  And that was a -- I believed her because she was a

15     Croatian lady.

16             So then I made mad plans of putting as many people in it the

17     street I could into my house and trying to find an English flag and was

18     going to go out -- all I'd got was a cup.  It sounds funny now, but it

19     was terrifying at the time, to say go out and say, they're all English.

20     They're all my family.  So we never had an impression that a return by

21     Croatian forces without the control of the UN or -- was something to --

22     that we would be killed.

23             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I tender this document 05259.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D180, Your Honours.

 


Page 11019

 1             MR. GOSNELL:  And no further questions, Mr. President.  Thank

 2     you.

 3        Q.   Mrs. Celar, thank you.

 4        A.   Thank you.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7                           Questioned by the Court:

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mrs. Celar, where do you live now?  And when I

 9     say "you," I mean you and your husband.

10        A.   In Serbia, in Valjevo.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Yesterday you told us - I think it's

12     page 72 of the transcript of that day - that your husband was a member of

13     special forces and that they were something in between 17 to 46 of

14     them --

15        A.   Yes --

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- the exact numbers are not important.  And it

17     was a group of people who came together to see how they could defend

18     themselves; right?

19        A.   Yes, sir.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  This group of people, did they stay on their own

21     or did they, sooner or later, incorporate in some other structure?

22        A.   If I may explain.  At the beginning, as I understood it, they

23     were people from different villages, and they met in Beli Manastir, like

24     us from Osijek, where we'd moved, and they met to discuss what was

25     happening in their areas and how they could protect themselves, and those


Page 11020

 1     were 19 original members.  Then, on that first night, they were

 2     surrounded and attacked by Croatian police and one of them was killed.

 3     And that left 18.

 4             Due to the tremendous amount of gun-fire, other Serbs came and

 5     joined in, and in the end, I -- Ilija told me the numbers were something

 6     like 46 men grouped together, and I think there was something like 1500

 7     Croatian police.  But the Croatian police thought there were far more of

 8     then.  That was the initial group who didn't join anybody else.  People

 9     joined them.  This was in the first -- I could say three weeks of -- from

10     April the 19th, 1991 up to, maybe, early September.  That's my

11     understanding of what -- those men.

12             Then eventually, I think they were incorporated into whatever

13     else was -- they changed uniforms and joined and patrolled the front

14     lines.  But I don't -- I don't know -- other people were required to

15     join.  The people men who lived in Baranja of fighting age were required

16     to join or dig ditches if they didn't want to fight.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So if I understand well, you don't really know

18     whether they were incorporated in some other structure TO or --

19        A.   No, sir.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Or they were not?

21        A.   I don't know categorically.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Where did they get uniforms witness weapons from.

23        A.   Well, they initially had blue uniforms like the police uniform, I

24     think.  But I wasn't there, so I didn't see what they were wearing.  I

25     saw them in the October, when they were wearing blue.  I don't know where


Page 11021

 1     their guns came from.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  I have one more question, but I see the

 3     time.  We'll take the second break for 30 minutes, and, after the break,

 4     I still have one question for you.

 5             Court adjourned.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  For my next and last question, I would ask to

12     have on the screen exhibit number P3039, 3-0-3-9.

13             Mrs. Celar, this is a document which has been shown to you by the

14     Prosecution.

15             Ms. Biersay, could you remind us, the context of this document it

16     is a letter written by whom to whom?

17             MS. BIERSAY:  If I could have one moment, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.

19             Well, I can read it from the first -- from the -- from the -- the

20     first page of the document.  It's the Hungarian minister of foreign

21     affairs to Mr. Hans Van den Broek, president of the Council of Ministers

22     of the European Community; right?  And it's dated 18 October 1991.

23             And I would like you, Mrs. Celar, to read the entire second page.

24             So if we could have the second page.

25             And you tell me when you finished reading.


Page 11022

 1        A.   I've read it, sir.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I would like to put your statement, paragraph 81,

 3     in the context of this information given by the Hungarian minister of

 4     foreign affairs.  Your statement was that you knew that there were many

 5     Hungarian people living in Baranja and you didn't know about one of them

 6     leaving or having to leave.

 7             That's you're statement; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes, sir.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  How do you contextualise this?

10        A.   Some of the villages in here weren't in the part where I was.  I

11     was mainly in Beli Manastir, and the villages I visited, which were

12     Hungarian, were Batina, by the bridge, Knezevi Vinograd some of the other

13     villages.  I can't remember the Hungarian villages that were mainly

14     Hungarian in those areas.  I know there were and I know I went there.

15     The one example I went was when I went to fetch the goat.

16             Most of the Hungarian that lived there spoke Hungarian, not

17     Serbo-Croat.  So I wouldn't have communicated with them in that event.  I

18     would have needed a translator.  My husband doesn't speak Hungarian.

19             I simply never wasn't aware.  I knew Croats were leaving, and I

20     knew the criminality that was going on.  But one of -- I don't remember

21     who said it to me, but one of people I knew said that Hungarians lived in

22     their villages and didn't much care who governed them as long as they

23     left them alone.  They weren't interested in either Croatia or Serbia,

24     that they had their own villages.

25             I can't be much more -- I mean, I didn't set out to investigate


Page 11023

 1     who'd been -- I didn't investigate who'd been set out or ... it simply --

 2     I didn't undertake any sort of mission like that.  I was trying to live

 3     on a daily basis at this time.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Would that mean that with regard to all this

 5     information that your -- your knowledge was rather limited?

 6        A.   It was limited when I was in Beli Manastir.  I -- I had more

 7     strong opinions when I was in Osijek because I met more people that had

 8     been affected and I was personally affected in Osijek.  But when I went

 9     to Baranja, I didn't really very often go outside what you would call the

10     city limits because really it was too dangerous go in anywhere.  And I

11     occasionally went to Jagodnjak to visit my mother-in-law there, but I

12     didn't.  I -- I -- I -- yes, I would agree with you.

13             It was limited in regards of I knew what orders were being given

14     or carried out or expulsions, et cetera.  The only thing could I witness

15     was who came into -- the refugees that coming in that we were greeting,

16     where they were coming from, well the ones I saw.  Not the ones going to

17     villages, I didn't know who they were.  I never met them.  I know when I

18     organised 280 packages of -- from Britain, humanitarian aid, we instruct

19     the Red Cross chief, Zeljko Cengi, and I agreed that the packages would

20     not stay in Beli Manastir, that every single village would receive some

21     of these packages with the exceptions of the books for the schools, the

22     notebooks and pencils for schools.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mrs. Celar.  This brings your

24     testimony to an end.  We thank you for coming to The Hague to assist the

25     Tribunal with your testimony.  Are you now released as a witness, and the

 


Page 11024

 1     court usher will escort you out of the courtroom.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So the court usher will escort you out of the

 4     courtroom, and we wish you a safe journey home.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Ms. Biersay.

 8             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             I rise to discuss some housekeeping matters pertaining to some

10     documents relating to this witness, if I may.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do.

12             MS. BIERSAY:  The first is the video that the Defence used on

13     re-direct and that I used on cross, specifically 65 ter 6568, which is

14     the video of her giving an interview to Serbian television, and we would

15     like to tender that as 65 ter number 6568.1.  So just the clip that was

16     shown.  So we tender that.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

18             Do you have --

19             MR. GOSNELL:  There's no objection to that but I'm not sure I

20     understand whether the transcript is also being tendered and I would say

21     that it ought to be.

22             MS. BIERSAY:  It's protocol that when we upload the video, we

23     also have the transcript.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter number 06568.1 will be


Page 11025

 1     Exhibit P3245.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thanks.

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  And I understand that we'll need access to

 5     change -- to add the .1 to the -- to the 65 ter number.  But that's

 6     something that with can discuss the Registry.

 7             The second issue is I have consulted with Mr. Gosnell, and I have

 8     reiterated the request that we get the document about which Mrs. Celar

 9     testified, the 2006 document that was sent to her husband.  So we have

10     agreement that we -- we will request that from her --

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That's -- that's the one Mr. Zivanovic read in

12     court.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  No, that's the one we don't have.  She said there

14     was a document given to her husband that dates from 2006, and so we --

15     it's unclear what the document is but we've asked for it.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And it's very unclear whether it is a 2006

17     document.

18             MS. BIERSAY:  Exactly.  So in any event, we've requested whatever

19     document shes that, that she's discussing, that we have it.  And this is

20     linked to the third point I have, which we would like to tender the

21     convictions at later date, once we have more information.  And I have

22     discussed this with Mr. Gosnell who assures with me that he is not

23     agreeing in advance to any admission of the document but he will not

24     object to the timeliness of the tendering of the document, which we will

25     do at a later stage.


Page 11026

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  We understand.  And that --

 2             Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  Just for the record and just to make this clear and

 4     also subject to the reservation that we would have the opportunity to

 5     tender other portions of 65 ter 06604 that may be relevant to the

 6     documents being tendered by the Prosecution that are also part of that

 7     same document.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That 65 ter number you are citing is the --

 9     the -- the large volume of documents you --

10             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes --

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- the OTP got from.

12             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes.  We've broken it up into two so 6603 is one

13     set and 6604 but I completely agree with Mr. Gosnell.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... and perhaps also you

15     ask for a copy for -- to be delivered to you by the witness.  I think

16     it -- it would be appropriate to instruct the witness, and I'm sure the

17     Registrar will convey the message to VWS, that it would be transferred

18     through VWS.

19             MS. BIERSAY:  I appreciate that, Your Honour.  Thank you.

20             That terminates my -- my intervention, and with the Court's

21     permission, I would seek leave to leave the courtroom.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Please do.  Have a nice day.

23             You --

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Oh, sorry.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Unless you need Ms. Biersay to be here?  No?


Page 11027

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can Ms. Biersay leave the courtroom?

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, of course.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  As far as you are concerned?  Okay.

 5             I see -- just one moment.  I see Mr. Stringer is not here anymore

 6     but that is not a problem.

 7             On -- on Monday, and I'm sorry, I -- I -- I had a little note on

 8     my office desk to -- with the -- with the exhibit numbers but I left it,

 9     so I have to do it off the top of my head without the numbers then.

10             On Monday, there is a document that has been MFI'd, pending --

11     pending a reservation from Mr. Zivanovic who asked Serbia whether the

12     document was complete.

13             On the 3rd of September - so that would have been yesterday, I

14     think - that same document has been admitted.

15             Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

16             The MFI is P3231.  And the admitted one, same document, is 3242.

17     P numbers.

18             Now, what I will do is vacate, ask the Registrar to vacate the

19     MFI number.  We keep the -- the admitted one P3242, as admitted.  And if

20     the information you get from - I think it was Serbia, Mr. Zivanovic --

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  That's correct.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If the information you get would cause a problem,

23     you'll have to file a motion eventually to add -- parts of documents or

24     whatever.  Okay?

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.


Page 11028

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 2             Now it's your turn, Mr. Zivanovic.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yeah, thank you.

 4             Your Honour, we have one -- we got this morning one information

 5     related to the witness DGH-044.  He is scheduled to testify on Monday,

 6     and he is under subpoena of this Trial Chamber.  He called my -- my

 7     investigator and told her that his mother has health problem.  She had a

 8     stroke last night and that he was not able to travel as -- as scheduled.

 9     He had to come to The Hague tomorrow.  And he -- he asked if he could

10     testify through videolink but we cannot see him -- anything -- any --

11     any -- any response to -- to such request.

12             It is just our information.  We'll -- I -- I like to convey this

13     information --

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I think --

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  -- and we'll provide for you if -- if he find any

16     documents to support his -- his statement, we'll provide it at earliest.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I think you should -- you should proceed by

18     filing a motion to solve this problem.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  We'll do it today.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             Nothing else?  Then we can call the next witness.

22             Microphone, please.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Oh, sorry.  It is appropriate time for the next

24     witness to inform the Chamber that it is my intention to use four

25     documents that the witness provided me during the proofing sessions, and


Page 11029

 1     I informed the Prosecution about it.  These documents are not yet the

 2     Rule 65 ter list but we'll file my -- our motion to amend or Rule 65 ter

 3     list with this these four documents.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Has the OTP a position?

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

 6             I just want to inquire with Mr. Zivanovic, because a list was

 7     updated this morning, and there are five document, not four.  Can you

 8     just confirm the 65 ter numbers, please.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yeah.  I wanted to say for the fifth document,

10     separately.  But I'll give the numbers of these documents.

11             These are 1D3744, 1D3745, 1D3746, and 1D3747.

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Very well.  Your Honour, at this stage we do not

13     have an objection to their addition to the 65 ter list, and we reserve

14     our objections on admissibility at a later stage.

15             And I believe there's a fifth document.  Is this also something

16     that is going to be raised in --

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.  We -- we found one document.  It is 1D3749.

18     It is document provided in the earlier -- earlier -- from one of the

19     Prosecution witnesses.  I think it was GH-102.  And we would use some

20     parts of this document.  It is just a one-page document.  If there is no

21     objection, we -- we would use this document too.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I will have to consult that document first

23     because on your list it's 1D3727.  So I haven't had the opportunity to

24     look at 3749 quite yet, but before the end of the session I will have a

25     look and state my position.


Page 11030

 1             But as I said, Your Honour, there's no objection to the four

 2     documents announced so far to be added to the 65 ter list.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So for those four, and I think the numbers are on

 4     record, you may add them to your 65 ter list, Mr. Zivanovic.  And the

 5     fifth one, we will hear from the OTP at the end of the session.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we now call the next witness?

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

10                           [The witness entered court]

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.  Thank you for

12     coming to The Hague to assist the Trial Chamber.

13             First of all, do you hear me in a language you understand?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Could you please tell us your name

16     and your date of birth.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dr. Vojislav Vukcevic.  I was born

18     on the 4th of July, 1938.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

20             You are about to read the solemn declaration by which witnesses

21     commit themselves to tell the truth.  I need to point out to that you the

22     solemn declaration does expose you to the penalties of perjury should you

23     give misleading or untruthful evidence to this Tribunal.

24             So could I ask you to read now the solemn declaration the

25     usher -- the court usher will give to you.

 


Page 11031

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 2     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3                           WITNESS:  VOJISLAV VUKCEVIC

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

 6             Mr. Zivanovic, your witness.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Vukcevic, good afternoon.

10        A.   Good afternoon.

11        Q.   Although we know each other, for the record, I'm going to

12     introduce myself to you.  My name is Zoran Zivanovic, and I represent

13     Goran Hadzic in these proceedings.

14             Mr. Vukcevic, you gave a statement, a written statement, to

15     Mr. Hadzic's Defence team a while ago.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we have, please, 1D2401.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] The statement will appear on the screen for your

18     benefit.

19             It seems that we don't have a signed version of your statement.

20     However --

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.  Mr. Zivanovic, the Registrar

22     tells me that this is the unsigned version and that the signed

23     versions -- version is .1.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  That is correct.  It is an error from --

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Would you need --


Page 11032

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  But we have the signed version too.  I -- at the

 2     moment, I'm not able to tell you the exact number.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Well, it's the same number, .1.  So perhaps we

 4     should call that one on the screen.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  That's the same -- the same statement but it

 6     was -- I have the signed statement and I have it in hard copy too.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Let's have the signed statement on the

 8     screen.  If that's okay with you.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would give to -- to the witness the -- the

10     signed version of his statement in hard copy.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Vukcevic --

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Oh.  We have it on the screen too.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Could you please now look at your screen.  Do

16     you recognise your signature on this statement?

17        A.   Yes, I do.  This is my signature.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now go to the following

19     page.

20        Q.   Could you please tell us whether, on the second page --

21        A.   Yes, my signature is on the second page as well.

22        Q.   And what about the remaining three pages?  First the third page.

23        A.   Yes, my signature is on the third page as well.

24        Q.   Page 4, please.

25        A.   Yes, my signature.


Page 11033

 1        Q.   And the last page, please.

 2        A.   I can see my signature on the last page as well.

 3        Q.   Mr. Vukcevic, you will perhaps remember that we had an interview

 4     here in The Hague after your arrival.  You wanted us to make some

 5     corrections in the statement.  The first one is paragraph 8 on page 4.

 6     That's in the original version.  And in the English version, it will be

 7     the penultimate paragraph on page 4.

 8             In that part of your statement it says that you lived in Baranja

 9     until the 4th of September, 1991.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   You wanted to change the date and you wanted to give us correct

12     date until which you lived in Baranja.

13        A.   I lived there until 6th of September.  This is a typo.  I lived

14     in Baranja until the 6th of September.

15        Q.   What year?

16        A.   1991.

17        Q.   In the same paragraph of this statement, you also mentioned an

18     attack against the barracks in Osijek.

19        A.   Yes, in Osijek.

20        Q.   Could you please tell us when that happened.

21        A.   I was a full-time professor at the school of law in Osijek.  On

22     the 2nd of September, 1991, there -- the -- that -- that was when the

23     exam term was.  I decided to spend the night in Osijek because I had a

24     flat there where I could actually spend the night.  And that's what I

25     did.


Page 11034

 1             Earlier dawn, and I can't remember the exact time, I was woken up

 2     by the shell explosions resounding all over the city.  I got up.  I

 3     switched on the radio to listen to the local Osijek station.  I wanted to

 4     hear what was going on.  And then I heard some words that I had never

 5     heard before.  The radio informed the listeners that the Serbian Chetnik

 6     armada had attacked the city of Osijek and that the citizens would be

 7     well advised not to leave their apartments until further notice.

 8             It was also stated that members of the national guard which was

 9     just a different name for the 1st Corps of the newly established Croatian

10     state and who were also known under the popular nickname Zenga were in

11     conflict with members of the Chetnik armada.

12             To took me a few moments to grasp what I was on what was going

13     on.  I had never heard that there was something as Serbian Chetnik

14     armada.  It was a terrible thing to hear those words.  And then the

15     anchor continued reporting as if from a sporting event that members of

16     the Croatian army had put up defence against that armada by opening fire

17     on the barracks in the lower part of the city of Osijek, which was just

18     across the street from the hospital.

19             He also said that fierce fighting was underway between members of

20     the Croatian guards and members of the occupying Yugoslav People's Army.

21     A cannon shell was fired from somewhere.  I don't know what its calibre

22     was because I don't know anything about those elements and about that.

23     And inflicted the first casualty on the day, and the day was the 3rd of

24     September, 1991.

25        Q.   Thank you very much.  In the last paragraph of your statement, on


Page 11035

 1     the last page, you also made a correction, or several corrections.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   In that paragraph, there is a reference to a person whose name

 4     was Kresojevic and he was from Bobetko and you spoke about him with

 5     Goran Hadzic?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   I'm sure you can see that.  Could you please tell us about that

 8     Kresojevic from Bobeta what party was he a member of?

 9        A.   Kresojevic had been a fully fledged member of the SPS which is

10     the abbreviation for the Socialist Party of Serbia, the SPS.

11        Q.   So not of the SDS as we can read in the statement?

12        A.   No, no, no, the SPS.

13        Q.   It arises from that paragraph that you discussed a speech of his

14     with Goran Hadzic.  Tell me, please, on that occasion when you spoke, was

15     Kresojevic also in the car or was he absent or, rather, was he not in the

16     car?

17        A.   No, he was not in the car.  Goran Hadzic and I talked on the way

18     to Knin.  We went there frequently because Knin was the seat of the

19     Serbian Democratic Party for Croatia.

20             On that occasion, Goran Hadzic said that the speech that had been

21     delivered by Kresojevic in Belgrade and in which he said that Serbs from

22     Eastern Slavonia fully supported Milosevic was not true and that

23     Kresojevic did it on his own without consulting anybody.

24             I have to tell you that a lot of courage was needed to say

25     something bad about Slobodan Milosevic.  You had to be very certain about


Page 11036

 1     your collocutor and had you to be sure that you would not suffer

 2     consequences as a result of such words.  Goran Hadzic had enough courage

 3     and trusted me enough to tell me that.  It was already then that he

 4     demonstrated his dissatisfaction with Milosevic.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, just a moment.

 6             Mr. Vukcevic, I am -- you're speaking in the same language as

 7     Mr. Zivanovic, so it's very easy for you and for Mr. Zivanovic to

 8     question and answer.  But -- you don't see them, but over there, there is

 9     a team of interpreters who have to interpret every you say and

10     Mr. Zivanovic says.  And it is not instantly.  It takes a little bit of

11     time.

12             So it is very helpful if, one, you would not speak too quickly.

13     And, secondly, and most importantly, that you leave a little pause

14     between Mr. Zivanovic's question and your answer.  And Mr. Zivanovic has

15     to do, of course, the same, but he knows that for a long time already.

16             Do you understand?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, and I do apologise

18     for what I've done, and I promise it will not be done again.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Vukcevic, if I were to put the same questions to you today,

22     the same as the ones that I put to you when this statement was compiled,

23     including the corrections that you provided today, would your answers be

24     the same -- sorry, let me finish, please.  Would they be the same as the

25     ones provided in this statement?


Page 11037

 1        A.   Absolutely the same.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honour, at this time we would tender for

 3     admission 1D2401.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 1D02401.1 will be Exhibit D181,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Vukcevic, in the first four paragraphs of your statement, you

10     described your professional career to us in quite a bit of detail.

11             In the fifth paragraph, you said, inter alia, that you were a

12     member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia until 1990.  I would

13     like to ask you now to tell us very briefly, first of all, what this

14     League of Communists of Yugoslavia was and what role it had at the time

15     in the beginning of the 1990s or, rather, the end of the 1980s and the

16     beginning of the 1990s.

17        A.   This was the only political party, the only organisation, that

18     was joined by members of the Serb people and members of other peoples as

19     well in this complex state that was called Yugoslavia because there was

20     no other political organisation.

21        Q.   Can you tell us for what reasons you ceased to be a member of the

22     League of Communists of Yugoslavia?

23        A.   The League of Communists of Yugoslavia was groping in the dark,

24     like a blind person because of the situation that existed at the time.

25     This vacillation, the indecisiveness of the people who represented that


Page 11038

 1     part had quite an effect on people who wanted to be different.

 2     Therefore, they asked to join other parties once these parties were

 3     established.  Croats were increasingly joining --

 4        Q.   I'm sorry for interrupting but I think we have quite a bit of

 5     transcribing problems.  So could you please speak a bit more slowly.

 6        A.   I do my best, but I think fast so that's what happens.

 7             I repeat:  Many people from the ranks of all the peoples of the

 8     then-Yugoslavia could hardly wait for the establishment of a party which

 9     they found to be close.  What I'm saying is that Croats were increasingly

10     joining the Croatian Democratic Community, the HDZ, and the Serbs also

11     spontaneously started joining the Serbian Democratic Party, the SDS, more

12     and more.

13             May I just say one more thing?  The HDZ was established a year

14     before the SDS.  And I remember full well the 9th of June, 1990.  I lived

15     in Beli Manastir, and that's where I'm from.  On that day, buses arrived

16     Beli Manastir.  There were two or three of them, I think.  They were full

17     of youngish people who were ethnic Croats.  Very loudly and in a very

18     abrasive way, they were expressing their ethnic affiliation.  This caused

19     concern and fear amongst the Serbs who were there.  Of course, I don't

20     know the exact number, but at least half of the population was affected.

21     Already then they were prepared to deal with the Croats who had arrived

22     physically.  They had come to establish the HDZ in Beli Manastir.

23             In order to prevent that as much as I could, I sent two or three

24     persons who were close to me to be near these buses and to prevent these

25     Serbs who were so upset.  I didn't want them to create any kind of


Page 11039

 1     incident.  At the same time, I went to Vukovar by car from Beli Manastir.

 2     The distance is about 70 kilometres.

 3             On that day, the late professor, Dr. Jovan Raskovic happened to

 4     be there on that day, and that is where the founding assembly of the SDS

 5     was to be held.  I would like to point out that I met Goran Hadzic then.

 6     He was in the company of the late Dr. Raskovic.

 7             Goran Hadzic and I knew each other superficially because his then

 8     wife was a student of mine, and she had already taken an exam in my

 9     subject.  He walked up to me very courteously he introduced me to

10     Jovan Raskovic, and I told him why I had come; namely, I wanted to

11     establish the SDS in Baranja.  Baranja is a region north of Osijek.  And

12     I asked him whether I had his consent.  He said yes.  And he told me to

13     do that.  He believed that that would be responsibly and properly.

14     Indeed, that is what happened.

15             So that would be all.

16        Q.   Can you tell us, Mr. Vukcevic, what was it that actually

17     motivated you to establish this Serb Democratic Party?  What were the

18     reasons that guided you at the time?

19        A.   A national feeling and an awareness that had been built up within

20     me over the years by my parents and by my mother's parents.  This led me

21     and others to this party.  Just like Croats joined the HDZ.

22             Please allow me to say one more thing.  We thought that loving

23     one's own nation, one's own people, did not mean hating another people or

24     a nation.  For me, this was a humane thing, normal, justified, but in no

25     way should one hate anybody else in order to love one's own nation.


Page 11040

 1        Q.   In your statement - this is the sixth paragraph of your

 2     statement, actually - you defined the HDZ not only as a national party

 3     but also as a nationalist party.  So can you explain the difference to

 4     us, the difference that you saw between national and nationalist parties?

 5     Why did you believe that?

 6        A.   Just as I said a moment ago, some people who were rushing into

 7     the HDZ, once they joined it, spoke with a great deal of intolerance,

 8     hatred even, of all others, especially the Serbs.  This frightened the

 9     Serbs and perplexed them too because many of us could not believe that

10     the persons we had been living together with all those years, we went to

11     school together, grew up together, went to work together.  We could not

12     believe that they were so full of hatred and intolerance as they were

13     displaying then.

14             I repeat:  I would like to say that it wasn't all Croats who were

15     like that.  That is important to point out.  It was people who were

16     trying to find their new place within this political party called the

17     HDZ.

18        Q.   In this same statement, you said that the SDS was a national but

19     not a nationalist party.  Can you explain this to us as well, that the

20     party was an ethnic one but not nationalist.

21        A.   Well, just as members of the HDZ displayed a great deal of

22     intolerance and hatred towards everything that was Serbian and Yugoslav,

23     the members of the SDS did not do that vis-ā-vis non-Serbs; that is to

24     say, Croats.  And on that basis, one could see that the members of the

25     SDS liked their own but did not hate others.


Page 11041

 1        Q.   Mr. Vukcevic, you joined the SDS in June 1990, and this is what

 2     I'd be interested in now.  Do you remember that already in August 1990,

 3     some negotiations were held between the SDS, on the one hand, and the HDZ

 4     on the other as represented by Ivan Vekic then?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.  I personally conducted these negotiations.  And this

 6     is how they started.  A man named Krivic who had been a student of mine,

 7     who took his civil law exam as my student, one day, he came to see me and

 8     said, Professor, I was sent by the HDZ.  I was sent to talk to you and to

 9     agree that you should organise a summit-level meeting between these

10     parties so that we try to prevent what was in the offing.

11             Now what was in the offing?  Do I have time to speak about this a

12     bit more extensively?

13        Q.   Please do.

14        A.   This was the 30th of August, 1990.  I remember the date very

15     well.  I also have copies of newspaper articles about this event.

16             On the 19th of August, on a holiday which is very important for

17     all of the Orthodox Christians, a plebiscite was held in Croatia among

18     the Serbs.  Not a referendum.

19             The late Milan Babic was the main person among the Serbs in

20     Croatia, and somebody gave him the idea that a referendum should be

21     organised.  I, as a lawyer and a professor of law, said the following to

22     him, Don't say anything that stupid.  That cannot be organised.  That

23     cannot be done because a referendum can be accepted or does not

24     necessarily have to be accepted by parliament.  The highest organ in a

25     particular country, in this case, Croatia.


Page 11042

 1             If you want a manifestation that would express the will of the

 2     Serb people and if you call it a referendum, then those who decide about

 3     that will consider you illiterate and unprofessional.  It is better for

 4     it to be called a plebiscite and you don't have to ask the parliament for

 5     approval of that.

 6             Quite simply, a form of spontaneous, social expression is

 7     organised.  And at long last, the obstinate Milan Babic agreed to do

 8     that.

 9             On the 19th of August, this plebiscite was organised, it was

10     held.  And Serbs who lived in Croatia and Serbs who were born in Croatia

11     and who lived outside Croatia expressed their views on whether they

12     wished to live in Yugoslavia and whether we wished to have political or

13     cultural autonomy of their own.

14             The very next day, APCs were on the move.  I don't know another

15     name for these vehicles.  These are military vehicles with a certain

16     number of men in them.  They look very threatening.  They look scary.

17     They set out to tame the Serbs.  It was impossible for the Serbs to have

18     APCs of their own to act against those APCs so what we resorted to was

19     the forest.

20             What do I mean?  They cut trees so that they would be felled and

21     in this way they would stop the APCs that had rubber tires.  And in this

22     way, they stopped these vehicles from reaching the areas that they had

23     set out to reach.  Of course, this provoked the Croatian authorities, and

24     those Croatian journalists who were in favour of sensationalism called

25     this the log revolution.  Logs are very big and cannot be removed just by


Page 11043

 1     using one's own hands.  Machinery is needed.

 2             So this happened on the 19th of August.  And then the -- the

 3     plebiscite happened on that day.  And the next day, the so-called log

 4     revolution took place, as I've already described it.  This behaviour,

 5     again, perplexed and bothered the Croatian state and the Croatian

 6     economy.

 7             Now how and why?  Because there could be no traffic.  Trains

 8     could not run, vehicles could not run on roads, so then the Croatian

 9     economy and the Croatian authorities, through their party, the HDZ,

10     started seeking a solution.  How?  By meeting with the representatives of

11     the SDS and asking the representatives of the Serbs that this behaviour

12     be stopped.

13             And then my student Krivic, my former student who had already

14     graduated by then came to me to my office at the law school and told me,

15     Professor, I was sent by the HDZ to talk to you and you, in turn, to talk

16     to Raskovic, for all of us to meet at the highest level.  Very well, said

17     I, I'll see what I can do.  I don't know how all this will end up but I

18     will do it.

19             I called professor Jovan Raskovic who lived in Sibenik at the

20     time on the Croatian Adriatic coast, and since we could not talk freely

21     on the phone because we knew that that we were being listened to, every

22     time we had to sit in the car and make the 650-kilometre long journey

23     between Osijek and Sibenik.  I told him, There is a serious matter which

24     I need to discuss with you.  Indeed, I went to Sibenik and I found him in

25     his summer cottage.  I told him what was going on and what was needed


Page 11044

 1     from him, and I said that I thought that that was okay.

 2             Raskovic was a smart man, and he said, Yes, I agree.  You should,

 3     indeed, take part in these negotiations.  But listen well:  Don't go on

 4     your own.  Let's go to Knin first.  Let's get the people in Knin, those

 5     people who are members of the Executive Board of the party, and let them

 6     decide on your participation.  Very well.  Yes, very well.

 7             And then he told me, I need to tell you something else.  What

 8     professor?  Don't go on your own.  Never go on your own.  Take somebody

 9     with you.  Because they can do you a lot of harm, and they can say that

10     you said what you didn't or they can mislead you into saying what you

11     didn't want to say.  Bring somebody with you who can testify and bear

12     witness as to what had been said.

13             That's how I chose Boro Savic from Vukovar.  That was his only

14     role.  The only activity in the negotiations.  He was the alter boy as

15     the Catholic church would put it.  He was -- an alter boy in my service.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, microphone, please.  And before

17     you proceed --

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- I don't know whether you still remember the

20     question you put to Mr. Vukcevic, before this very long answer, but I

21     would advise you to control your witness a little bit more.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   The question was whether you negotiated on behalf of the SDS with

24     Ivan Vekic from the HDZ.

25        A.   The answer is:  Yes, I did.


Page 11045

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D3251, 3251.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Vukcevic, can you see the document on the

 3     left-hand side of the screen?

 4        A.   Yes, I know when it was drafted.  I've seen it many times.

 5        Q.   Since you have told us that you were told by Professor Raskovic

 6     that there should be a decision in place on behalf of the party, is this

 7     the decision authorising you to negotiate with the HDZ?

 8        A.   Yes, this is the decision which authorised me to negotiate and to

 9     be a negotiator on behalf of the Serbian Democratic Party.

10        Q.   And I can see that the decision was passed --

11        A.   On the 23rd of August.  I apologise -- or, rather, yes, on the

12     23rd of August, 1990.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honour, I would stop for today because I

14     would show to the witness one pretty long document.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

16             Mr. Demirdjian, that one document the fifth one.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Your Honours.  Although we have not

18     objected to the first four that were brought by Dr. Vukcevic, the fifth

19     one was not actually brought by him and I don't think this document is

20     relevant or have any probative value.  These are comments made by another

21     witness, who has testified here for Your Honours, and this was not part

22     of the witness's statement.  They have no value, in our -- in our point

23     of view.

24             So perhaps Mr. Zivanovic wants to explain how he intends to use

25     it, but at this stage we object to its admission to the 65 ter list.


Page 11046

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Sorry.  Mr. Zivanovic, we can try to settle this

 2     now or we can wait until the moment you want to --

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Okay.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- use the document and see what happens then.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  But now I would tender this

 6     document into evidence.  The document from the screen.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Okay.  So that one is admitted and marked.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 1D3251 will be Exhibit D182.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  We do allow you to add to your 65 ter list

10     the four documents we started with, and an we'll see what will happen

11     with the fifth one.

12             Court adjourned.

13             I'm sorry.  I'm sorry.  Mr. Vukcevic, we stop here for the day.

14     You will be expected to be back tomorrow morning at -- oh, I'm sorry.

15     Thank you.  Monday.  You will be expected to be back on the witness-stand

16     on Monday morning at 9.00.  In the meantime, you stay -- you -- you are

17     still a witness.  You are still under oath.  You remain under oath.  That

18     means that you cannot discuss your testimony with anyone and, on top of

19     that, you can't communicate or talk to any of the parties at all.

20             Do you understand?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             Court adjourned.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.59 p.m. to


Page 11047

 1                           be reconvened on Monday, the 8th of September,

 2                           2014, at 9.00 a.m.

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