040114ED

Page 1405

1 Before we start with the witness, the Chamber will make an oral

2 ruling with respect to the matter raised two days ago, concerning an

3 answer given by one of the witnesses. I should like to remind you that

4 the question raised by the Defence on the 12th of January was about the

5 following, now, whether a witness and not an expert witness can testify

6 with regard to his opinion. This question was raised by the Defence, and

7 it also had to do with the questions raised by the Judges as to

8 jurisdiction.

9 In view of Article 85(B) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence,

10 which has to do with the presentation of evidence, and that is the title

11 of the Rule, provides the following: That a Judge can ask witnesses any

12 questions they deem fit at any stage of the trial.

13 Rule 89, however, provides for the following: That the Chamber

14 may admit any relevant evidence which it deems to have probative value.

15 Therefore, in a more general manner, the right to ask questions -- for

16 the Judges to ask questions may be taken within their general mission to

17 discover the truth. Of course, it is of interest to note, on the other

18 hand, that the Judges of the Tribunal are professional judges, and they

19 therefore are not restricted by national rules which would be applicable

20 to a jury. And from that point of view, Rule 89(A) of the Rules of

21 Procedure state that a Chamber shall apply the Rules of Evidence set

22 forth in this section and shall not be bound by national Rules of

23 Evidence.

24 Therefore, combining all these rulings, the right of Judges to

25 ask questions is a broad-based one and should not be restricted or

Page 1406

1 limited in any way. The judge, therefore, has full authority to ask any

2 questions he deems useful to arrive at the truth.

3 Probative-value questions in respect to witnesses' answers is

4 something that will be regulated and given weight to by the Chamber, and

5 they will of course take into account all the different elements --

6 credibility, viability, and all the rest.

7 Having said that, with respect to this particular case and the

8 question raised on the 12th of January, our ruling is the following: The

9 witness was heard in the case during an examination-in-chief and for a

10 cross-examination, and in that case, the witness said that his -- that

11 her husband was going to meet responsible persons from the BiH command in

12 Mehurici in order to -- and he was asked whether the Mujahedin were a

13 part -- find out whether the Mujahedin were a part.

14 During the examination, it was indicated that the Muslim army,

15 who were the ones who shot at them -- whether they were the ones who shot

16 at them at Miletici. And the witness had also stated that some of the

17 soldiers were wearing camouflage uniforms, T-1324.

18 During the cross-examination, the Defence itself asked the

19 witness whether their Muslim neighbours were members of the BiH army, and

20 the witness's answer was in the affirmative, and that is at 31340.

21 Now, the question that was raised, in view of the transcript in

22 LiveNote - in French, not in English and I'm come back to that later on -

23 so the question was as follows:

24 Q. "According to you, Madam, the people who attacked your

25 village - and you said that they were Mujahedin - would you

Page 1407

1 say, in your opinion - of course, you're not a military

2 expert - but you saw what happened because you were an

3 eyewitness - do you think those foreigners, in your opinion,

4 and to the best of your knowledge, were part of the BH Army

5 or not?"

6 And the witness gave the following answer:

7 A. "I think that they did belong to the Army of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina. They were with the Muslims."

9 Now, the next question was as follows:

10 Q. "So that is what you think. But without any further

11 elements?"

12 A. "Yes, that's right. They were with the Muslims, so I thought

13 that they were together. I cannot say with any degree of

14 certainty anything else, because I don't know about that."

15 Now, the next question was:

16 Q. "In your opinion, therefore, the local Muslims were

17 integrated in the BiH; is that right?"

18 Answer:

19 A. "Yes."

20 Now, in view of these questions and answers, during the

21 examination conducted by the Prosecution and the cross-examination by the

22 Defence, and in view of the questions raised by the Judges themselves,

23 the question did not have to do with the witness's opinion but on the

24 knowledge that the witness had, based on a summary of what she said. So

25 the question that was asked at no point in the French transcript

Page 1408

1 reflected the opinion of the witness.

2 So all necessary precautions were taken. Reference was made to

3 what the witness had seen, because the witness was an eyewitness, and the

4 knowledge that the witness had, and it was -- the witness was clearly

5 asked to confirm what she had said in this particular case. So the

6 question was formulated after the witness had provided elements on the

7 basis of which it was able to -- we were able to assess her testimony,

8 which will aid the Chamber until due course to give probative value to

9 this testimony and decide what weight to give to it.

10 Whatever the case, the Trial Chamber has the right to ask any

11 questions that it considers to be useful, in order to determine the

12 probative weight which is appropriate to any answer provided by the

13 witness in the course of the examination-in-chief and in the course of

14 the cross-examination.

15 Having said that, and outside the scope of oral 1/9:15 decision,

16 the Trial Chamber determined that the English transcript could have given

17 rise, could have provoked the Defence to react as it did, because in

18 English interpretation, the question that was posed was: "In your

19 opinion." That was the English version. And I think that in such a

20 case, the Defence believed that the witness had been asked for the

21 witness's opinion, whereas in the French interpretation, no reference was

22 made to an opinion of any kind that the witness may have held. So I

23 think that this is what caused the Defence to react as it did. It was

24 the English version which mentioned "In your opinion," -- the wording of

25 which was "In your opinion," whereas in the French, these words were

Page 1409

1 never used.

2 In addition, if the Defence has time to consult the Robert and

3 Collins French-English dictionary to check the semantics with regard to

4 this matter of opinion, the Defence will see that an opinion can mean

5 either a judgement, a conviction or an idea. This is page 617.

6 Page 1.616 of the English version, "opinion", defined by

7 Anglicists, can be an opinion or consideration. So opinion can be a

8 point of view. The famous Concise Oxford Dictionary says the following

9 with regard to the term "opinion": It can be a view or judgement, most

10 necessarily based on fact or knowledge. And this means that, on the

11 other hand, one could deduct that an opinion may be based on fact or

12 knowledge. This is not excluded, as far as the Petit Robert is

13 concerned; page 1536, an opinion could be a matter of judgement or

14 someone's state of mind.

15 On the other hand, as far as knowledge is concerned in the Petit

16 Robert, this knowledge has to do with a fact or a manner of knowing, and

17 the opposite of the term "knowledge" would be "doubt," or "ignorance."

18 Having provided these semantic explanations, the Trial Chamber

19 believes that it is not necessary to redact the witness's response, the

20 response that the witness gave to the question posed to the witness. The

21 Trial Chamber considers that it was the English translation which was

22 misleading.

23 Having said this, we will proceed, and I think that we have to go

24 into closed session, because the Prosecution has certain details to

25 provide us with regard to the witness.

Page 1417

1 its examination-in-chief.

2 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours.

3 Examined by Mr. Withopf:

4 Q. Witness XA, and in the course of this examination, I will always

5 address you as "Witness XA." Witness XA, can you please inform the Trial

6 Chamber whether you have been a member of the JNA.

7 A. Yes, I was a member of the JNA.

8 Q. Can you please --

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but I

10 think it would be appropriate, and I think this is the proper procedure,

11 for the witness to write down his name, which will remain under seal, so

12 that we know who the witness XA is. I apologise for having interrupted

13 my learned colleague.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you'll be shown a

15 piece of paper. You'll write down your first and last name on this piece

16 of paper, and your date of birth. This piece of paper will be recorded.

17 The registrar will make a record of it, and this is in order to be sure

18 of your identity. The usher will show you this piece of paper, and

19 please write down your first and last name and your date of birth and

20 your address. And if you have a profession, could you make a note of it

21 too.

22 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber would like to

24 thank the Defence for having pointed out this issue.

25 Madam Usher, you will show this document to the Prosecution,

Page 1418

1 first of all, so that they can confirm that this is in fact the right

2 witness, that no mistake has been made as far as their witness is

3 concerned. Is that the person?

4 You will now show the document to the Defence so that they can

5 check it. And show the document to the accused.

6 Very well. Mr. Registrar, could we have an exhibit number to

7 tender this exhibit into evidence.

8 THE REGISTRAR: This exhibit number will be P33, under seal.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] P33, under seal. The

10 Prosecution may proceed.

11 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much.

12 Q. Witness XA, you just informed the Trial Chamber that you have

13 been a member of the JNA. Can you please provide us some more detail as

14 to when you joined the JNA and as to when you left the JNA.

15 A. I joined the JNA on the 15th of January, 1989, and I returned in

16 1990. I was in Nis, and after that I was at the Bulgarian border.

17 Q. Witness XA, can you please tell the Trial Chamber where you grew

18 up.

19 A. I was born in Zenica. I grew up in the village of Janjac, near

20 Zenica. It's eight kilometres away.

21 Q. Going back to the transcript, Witness XA, can you please add as

22 to at what time you left the JNA.

23 A. On the 15th of January --

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think there's a technical

25 problem.

Page 1419

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My client can't hear.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One of the accused can't hear.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Antonetti, please.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll ask the usher to check the

5 technical problem, to the extent that she is capable of doing so.

6 It concerns the interpretation from French into the B/C/S.

7 If there is a problem, the best solution would be perhaps for the

8 accused to move forward into the seat in front. Perhaps that equipment

9 is working.

10 Can you hear now? Everything all right? It seems that things

11 are back to normal.

12 Very well. Please continue, Mr. Prosecutor.

13 MR. WITHOPF:

14 Q. Witness XA, in light of the fact that there has been a technical

15 problem, I restart my examination-in-chief.

16 Witness XA, can you please inform the Trial Chamber whether you

17 have been a member of the JNA.

18 A. I was a member of the JNA from the 15th of January, 1989, which

19 is when I went to the JNA, and I was stationed in Nis. Afterwards I was

20 transferred to the Yugoslav Bulgarian border. And I left the JNA on the

21 15th of January, 1990.

22 Q. Can you please tell us where you grew up.

23 A. I grew up in the village of Janjac, near Zenica, and I was born

24 in Zenica.

25 Q. The village of Janjac, can you please inform the Trial Chamber

Page 1420

1 what was the predominant ethnicity of the villagers in 1992 and the

2 beginning of 1993 of that village.

3 A. In my village, the village of Janjac, there were only Croats

4 living there. Just Croats.

5 Q. The villagers surrounding your village, Janjac, what was the

6 predominant ethnicity of the villagers living in these villages?

7 A. Most of them were Muslims. That was the majority population.

8 And there was one Serb village. Its name was Osunjca.

9 Q. Witness XA, can you please provide us with the names of the

10 predominant Muslim villages you were just referring to.

11 A. Yes. Those villages were called Lokvine, Kozarci, Obrenovci, and

12 Stranjani.

13 Q. How would you describe the relationship between the Croats in

14 your village and the Muslims in the villages you were just detailing?

15 A. The relationship was -- actually, could you repeat the question,

16 please.

17 Q. How would you describe was the relationship in 1992, in mid-1992,

18 between the villagers, the Croat villagers, in the village you grew up,

19 and the villagers in the villages, in the Muslim villages surrounding

20 Janjac?

21 A. At that time, relations began to be strained, and on the hills -

22 we can see the hills above our village - we could see armed people,

23 mostly they had hunting rifles.

24 Q. Prior to seeing such people with rifles, how would you describe

25 the relationship?

Page 1421

1 A. Before that, the relations were very good.

2 Q. What caused this change in the relations?

3 A. The change in relations was caused by the arming that went on.

4 Everyone, on all sides, each man would keep to himself. There weren't

5 that many contacts.

6 Q. Was there a time, Witness XA, when you joined the HVO?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. Can you please inform us as to when you joined the HVO?

9 A. I joined the HVO in November 1992.

10 Q. And which unit have you been a member of when you joined the HVO

11 in November 1992?

12 A. The Jure Francetic Brigade was my unit, and the brigade commander

13 was Zivko Totic.

14 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber where the Jure Francetic

15 Brigade was located, was based.

16 A. The Jure Francetic Brigade was based in a village named

17 Podbrijezje, near Zenica.

18 Q. In November 1992, and later on, in the beginning of 1993, can you

19 please inform the Trial Chamber as to which military units were on the

20 opposite side.

21 A. On the opposite side were the units of the BH Army, and they were

22 the 7th Muslim Brigade, the Patriotic League, the Green Berets, and --

23 well, I think that's it.

24 Q. The 7th Muslim Brigade, where was the 7th Muslim Brigade based,

25 end of 1992 and 1993?

Page 1422

1 A. The 7th Muslim Brigade was based at Bilmiste in the barracks

2 there.

3 Q. Bilmiste, is it part of any bigger town, or is it in the vicinity

4 of any bigger town?

5 A. Bilmiste is in Zenica. It's actually a district of Zenica

6 itself.

7 Q. In terms of armament, was there a difference between the unit you

8 were a member of and the ABiH units you were just detailing?

9 A. Those brigades had many more soldiers, and weapons too. All the

10 weapons were from the former JNA, and they came to possess those weapons,

11 that is to say, the Muslim armed forces.

12 Q. Was there a time, Witness XA, when you have seen foreigners in

13 the area of Zenica?

14 A. Yes, that's right. I noticed some foreigners. They spoke a

15 different language. They had insignia in Arabic. They wore long beards

16 and black bands. And sometimes I saw them with some sabres, and they

17 were about 50 centimeters long.

18 Q. Was there a particular word you referred to to these foreigners?

19 A. We called those foreigners the Mujahedin.

20 Q. Witness XA, when was the first time you've seen such Mujahedin in

21 the area of Zenica?

22 A. The first time I saw those foreigners in the area of Zenica was

23 the end of 1992. They were walking round town, quite normally.

24 Q. Were they walking around the town of Zenica with the arms you

25 just described?

Page 1423

1 A. Yes, they were.

2 Q. Do you know, Witness XA, where these Mujahedin came from?

3 A. I know that they spoke Arabic and that they had Arabic writing on

4 their flags. I think that they were from Afghanistan, Pakistan too.

5 Q. You're making reference to Arabic writing on their flags. Did

6 these Mujahedin -- end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993 -- carry such

7 flags with them openly in Zenica and the area of Zenica?

8 A. Yes. They carried the flags around Zenica quite openly, and in

9 Zenica too.

10 Q. Do you know, Witness XA, where these Mujahedin were based at the

11 time?

12 A. At the time, they were stationed in the village of Mehurici, of

13 the Travnik municipality.

14 Q. Was there a time, Witness XA, when you joined the military police

15 of the HVO?

16 A. Yes, I did join the military police of the HVO, and that was at

17 the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993.

18 Q. Can you please inform us where the military police unit which you

19 became a member of end of 1992/beginning of 1993 was based.

20 A. That unit of the military police was based -- actually, it

21 belonged to the Jure Francetic Brigade, and it was based in the Rudar

22 Hotel in Zenica.

23 Q. Did there come a time, Witness XA, when the relations between the

24 HVO and the ABiH became even worse than at the beginning of 1993?

25 A. Relations deteriorated from one day to the next, and relations

Page 1424

1 were worst when Zivko Totic, the commander of the brigade, was captured

2 and his escort killed on the road near Podbrijezje.

3 Q. Do you still recall, Witness XA, when your commander, Zivko

4 Totic, was kidnapped and his escort were killed?

5 A. Yes, I do recall that, because I was there on the spot, and that

6 was on the 11th of April, 1993, in the morning, between 8.00 and 9.00.

7 Q. Witness XA, can you please inform us where the location

8 Podbrijezje, as you just mentioned, is located.

9 A. Podbrijezje is located near the town of Zenica. It is about five

10 kilometres away, or three to four kilometres away from Zenica. And

11 nearby is the steelworks of Zenica.

12 Q. You were saying, Witness XA, that the escort of Zivko Totic was

13 killed. Can you please inform us of whom the escort was comprised of.

14 A. The escorts to Zivko Totic were his brother, Ljubomir Totic, and

15 his brother's son, and his name was Mladen Jandric. The driver was

16 there. He was also killed. Yes, I forgot that, and I've forgotten his

17 name. And there was another man who was hitchhiking, so they took him

18 in.

19 Q. Did you get to know that other people, in addition to Zivko

20 Totic's escort, have been killed in the course of this incident?

21 A. Yes. In the course of that incident, a couple, an elderly

22 couple, were also killed. They were between the ages of 50 and 60. And

23 when I arrived on the spot where Zivko was captured and where his escorts

24 were killed, that elderly couple was lying down on the ground some 50

25 metres away from the actual spot that Zivko Totic was captured.

Page 1425

1 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber in which capacity you

2 visited the scene of the crime.

3 A. As I've already said, I was a military policeman of the Jure

4 Francetic Brigade, and Zivko Totic was the brigade commander. So from

5 the headquarters, from the command at Podbrijezje, we were informed of

6 what had happened and told that we had to go on the spot immediately.

7 And when we arrived there, all the people were already dead. I

8 wasn't able to recognise anyone, because their heads had been shattered.

9 They were shot at from a distance of about five metres, that is to say,

10 close up. And there were about a hundred cartridge cases lying around,

11 an M-84 millimetre type of machine-gun. So we set up a barrier there,

12 and the representatives of the HVO arrived in due course, and so did the

13 representatives of the BH Army, as well as the HDZ and SDA

14 representatives, because at the time, the HDZ and the SDA were the two

15 ruling parties.

16 Q. Witness XA, you were just saying that representatives of the ABiH

17 arrived at the spot. Can you please provide us some more detail in that

18 respect.

19 A. The representatives of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, together

20 with representatives of the HVO, conducted a scene-of-crime

21 investigation, and we, the military policemen, were standing at a

22 distance of about 100 metres from the actual event. Later on, they went

23 to the Croatian centre in Zenica. They had a meeting of some kind there.

24 Probably they didn't manage to reach an agreement, because things were

25 worse afterwards.

Page 1426

1 Q. "Things were worse afterwards," just quoting your last few words.

2 What does it actually mean?

3 A. That means that on the 17th of April, that is to say, five days

4 after Zivko had been captured, and we were all in the hotel, all of us,

5 and when the members of the 7th Muslim Brigade entered the Croatian

6 centre and broke everything that was there, there were two of our men

7 there who were on guard, and they came to tell us that the place had been

8 stormed by members of the 7th Muslim Brigade and that, quite simply, they

9 forced them out. And two hours later, they shot at the hotel, so that we

10 had to withdraw from the hotel, to a village that was called Grm.

11 Q. For clarification, Witness XA, the hotel you are referring to, is

12 it the base of the HVO Jure Francetic military police unit? This is the

13 question.

14 A. The hotel was the base of the Jure Francetic military police,

15 yes.

16 Q. Witness XA, did there come a time when you have been arrested?

17 A. Yes, I was arrested.

18 Q. Do you still recall the date as to when you were arrested?

19 A. I was arrested on the 21st, between the 21st and 22nd of April,

20 1993, in the apartment of -- I was arrested on the -- between the 21st

21 and 22nd of April, in the apartment in Zenica, and the name of the street

22 at the time was JNA Street.

23 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber, Witness XA, as to who

24 arrested you.

25 A. I was arrested by the 7th Muslim Brigade, the military police of

Page 1427

1 the 7th military brigade [as interpreted], in actual fact.

2 Q. How did you get to know that it was the military police of the

3 7th Muslim Brigade who arrested you?

4 A. All of the people who turned up in the apartment where I was

5 located had insignia denoting the 7th Muslim Brigade and its military

6 police, and the people who were on the stairwell, and there were about

7 ten of them, they also had patches of the military police of the 7th

8 Muslim Brigade.

9 Q. Witness XA, I'm now going to show you a photo board showing a

10 number of different military shoulder patches.

11 MR. WITHOPF: This is the Prosecution Exhibit P5.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This exhibit was tendered under

13 the number of P5; is that right? It is Exhibit P5?

14 MR. WITHOPF: That's completely correct, Mr. President. And I'm

15 going to present the exhibit via Sanction to the Witness XA.

16 Q. Witness XA, on this photo board, can you identify the shoulder

17 patch -- can you identify one of the shoulder patches as being the one

18 which has been worn by the members of the military unit which arrested

19 you in April 1993?

20 A. Yes, I can. It's patch number 16. But that patch was straight

21 at the top.

22 Q. Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What does the witness mean when

24 he says that it was straight at the top?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is the same patch as shown here,

Page 1428

1 but it wasn't egg-shaped. It was straight at the top.

2 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Q. Once you have been arrested on the 21st, 22nd of April, 1993,

4 where did the members of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade did you bring

5 to?

6 A. The members of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade took me off to the

7 Music School, which was located near the central cinema in Zenica.

8 Q. Witness XA, I'm now going to show you a photograph. It's the

9 Prosecution Exhibit P8.

10 MR. WITHOPF: And since the witness -- since I will ask the

11 witness at a later point in time to make some markings on it, the

12 Prosecution has to present it and has to tender it in hard copy. It's

13 the Prosecution's exhibit P8.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have P7 on the screen.

15 MR. WITHOPF: That's exactly, Mr. President, Your Honours, the

16 photograph I wish to show the witness.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So, if I understand

18 you, you have a copy to show the witness for him to authenticate it; is

19 that right?

20 MR. WITHOPF: That's completely correct, Your Honour, Your

21 Honours, and it's actually Exhibit P7. I apologise.

22 Can the witness please be shown the photograph Exhibit P7.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, if you have a copy

24 already, perhaps you could show the witness.

25 MR. WITHOPF: There is such a copy available.

Page 1429

1 Q. Witness XA, can you please tell the Trial Chamber what you can

2 see on this photograph.

3 A. I can see on the photograph the Music School, and it was next to

4 the central, or central cinema hall.

5 Q. Is this the Music School in Zenica you were just referring to

6 that you have been brought to after you have been arrested by members of

7 the military police of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

8 A. Yes, that's it. That's the Music School where I was taken to

9 when they captured me, that is to say, when I was captured by the

10 military police of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade.

11 Q. The time you were brought to the Zenica Music School you just

12 identified on this photograph, where in this building were you brought

13 to?

14 A. They took me to the cellar of this building. You can see the

15 small windows by the road. That's where the cellar was located, which is

16 where they took me, and I spent 15 days there.

17 Q. Witness XA --

18 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness please be provided with a text

19 marker. Can it also please be put on the ELMO, the photograph.

20 Q. Can you please mark with the text marker the windows of the room

21 in which you were brought in.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. And can you please write in the grey area beneath these windows,

24 the words "this is the room I was detained."

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, given that there

Page 1430

1 are protective measures that have been granted, I think that this

2 photograph should be relayed by the Internet system. If he writes

3 something down on the photograph, his writing can be identified, and that

4 could give rise to certain problems, to a slight problem. So if he

5 doesn't mark anything, his name or any other details, this might be

6 useful, since this document should be relayed to the exterior. We will

7 take confidential measures later.

8 MR. WITHOPF: Right. Thank you very much. Very well.

9 Q. Witness XA, can you please write down what I just mentioned:

10 "This is the room I was kept in detention."

11 A. [Marks]

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So no one can see what he has

13 marked on the document. Very well.

14 MR. WITHOPF: I understand, Mr. President. That's the way it

15 should be. And the photograph will later on be shown to Defence and the

16 two accused, I understand.

17 Q. Witness XA, I'm now going to show you a further photograph. This

18 is Prosecution Exhibit, and I understand it's now P8. And again, we have

19 the photograph available in hard copy as well.

20 Witness XA, can you please inform the Trial Chamber what you can

21 see on this photograph.

22 A. I can see the room. When the police from the 7th Muslim Brigade

23 brought me there, that's the room that they took me to, and that is where

24 I spent 15 days.

25 Q. For clarification, Witness XA, is this the room from inside you

Page 1431

1 just marked on the other photograph, with the access from outside?

2 A. Yes, that's the inside of the room that I -- the outside of which

3 I have marked on the document.

4 Q. The day of your arrest, you were just informing the Trial

5 Chamber, you were taken in this room. What happened to you after you

6 were taken into this room?

7 A. When they took me to this room, there was a door there. It only

8 consisted of sort of rods, and then three policemen from the 7th Muslim

9 Brigade appeared and they told me to approach the door and to put my hand

10 through the sort of rails. They took everything that I had on me. They

11 took my shoes off too, my ring, my watch, and the money I had on me.

12 While I spent 15 days there, I was barefoot all the time. I had no

13 shoes.

14 Afterwards, about one hour later, some other people descended.

15 There were five of them. When they started taking me out, up the stairs,

16 I was hit with a wooden implement on the head, and then I lost

17 consciousness.

18 When I regained consciousness, I was in a room where there were

19 between 15 to 20 of those policemen from the 7th Muslim Brigade. They

20 interrogated me. They put some questions to me. They asked me how many

21 Muslim women I had raped. They asked me which Croats had weapons, cars,

22 rifles. They continued to beat me until I lost consciousness, and after

23 a certain period of time, they threw me back into the cellar, into the

24 basement.

25 And this continued for about eight days, on a daily basis. Then

Page 1432

1 they stopped beating me for a two-day period, but the policeman on duty,

2 on the first floor, when their colleagues from the battlefield arrived,

3 they would let them go into the basement to beat us again.

4 So during that 15-day period, we were maltreated, beaten, et

5 cetera. There were no toilet facilities. We didn't have any water. We

6 had a gallon, which weighed about three kilos. And sometimes there would

7 be up to 30 of us. And that was drinking water.

8 In this photograph, you can see, to the right, there was a sort

9 of bucket, five-litre bucket, and that's where we were able to relieve

10 ourselves.

11 Q. Witness XA, you were just informing the Trial Chamber about the

12 beatings. Can you go into more detail by what means, with the help of

13 what tools, you have been beaten by the members of the 7th Muslim

14 Mountain Brigade.

15 A. Usually, these were wooden handles. We called them spade

16 handles. Then they used rubber truncheons. They sometimes had

17 knuckle-dusters. That's what we called them - either wooden or iron

18 ones. They would kick us, they would beat us with whatever they could

19 get their hands on.

20 Q. How do you know that these were members of the 7th Muslim

21 Mountain Brigade's military police which beat you?

22 A. All of these people -- most of them had the insignia of the

23 military police of the 7th Muslim Brigade. Those of them who didn't and

24 who beat me are the ones who had arrived -- or would arrive from the

25 battlefield.

Page 1433

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, we're going to

2 have to stop, because an hour and a half has almost passed, and for

3 technical reasons, in order to change the tape, we cannot continue. So

4 you'll have to continue with your cross-examination. I'm going to ask

5 Madam Usher to lower the blinds to prevent the witness from being seen.

6 Naturally, we will take care of the two documents in a short while.

7 Witness, we will now have a 25-minute break. You'll be able to

8 rest in a room for witnesses, and we will resume the hearing after the

9 break. That will be at 10 past 4.00. And as we will be working until

10 7.00, we will be having another break.

11 We will now adjourn, and we will resume at 10 past 4.00

12 precisely.

13 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The protective measures are

16 still in place. There is just a little correction that I would like to

17 make. On the basis of the transcript, what will be redacted has to do

18 with the details that concern the witness's identity, the details that

19 would allow him to be identified. And what appears in the English

20 transcript.

21 Mr. Withopf, please continue with your examination-in-chief, and

22 we have protective measures in place which are being controlled by

23 Mr. Registrar.

24 Please proceed.

25 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Your Honours.

Page 1434

1 Q. Witness XA, for the information of the Trial Chamber, you have

2 described the beatings, and you have described the means by which members

3 of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Antonetti, please.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could the Defence inform us of

6 whether we have a technical problem?

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] As far as I have understood, the

8 accused said that he can now hear the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution

9 very well, but he has to strain to hear the witness's answer. But I

10 think everything is fine now.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, could you please say,

12 number one, to see whether the accused can hear you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No. The witness can't hear.

15 The accused has to be in a position to hear the witness's

16 answers, but apparently we have a problem.

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I've been told that the

19 technician is arriving. If the problem continues, the best solution

20 would be for Mr. Kubura to sit in front. Things should be functioning

21 there.

22 Could the usher check to see whether the system in front of the

23 accused is working, though it's also necessary for there to be headphones

24 there. The usher is going to check. Here's the technician.

25 Could you say "one" again, please.

Page 1435

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Apparently it's working now.

3 The Trial Chamber would like to thank the technician.

4 Mr. Withopf, please proceed.

5 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much.

6 Q. Witness XA, for the information of the Trial Chamber, you were

7 describing the beatings by the members of the 7th Muslim Mountain

8 Brigade's military police in the Zenica Music School, and you were

9 detailing beatings on your head. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber

10 which other parts of your body have been affected by the beatings.

11 A. They beat me all over my body, with the exception of my legs. It

12 was mostly my back, the stomach, my head.

13 Q. One of the beatings you were mentioning prior to the break caused

14 you being unconscious. Was there any additional bodily harm inflicted by

15 this beating?

16 A. As a result of these beatings, I was wounded. I had two cracks

17 in my head. One was four to five centimetres wide, four to five

18 centimetres long - you can still see it - and the other was a

19 two-centimetre wound at the back of my head.

20 Q. Witness XA, you were just mentioning that one can still see the

21 scar that has been caused by this beating. Can you please show to the

22 Judges the scar on your head that has been the result of the beating that

23 caused you being unconscious.

24 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honour, the witness is prepared to show the

25 participants of this trial the scar, and the witness -- whatever you

Page 1436

1 wish -- can either come to the Judges's desk or whatever you think is the

2 appropriate proceedings.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It won't be

4 necessary for him to show everyone the scar, but he can use his finger to

5 point to the location of his scar. We will trust him. Unless the

6 Defence wants to see it for himself.

7 Witness, please point to the scar on your head. Use your finger

8 to do so.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The scar is here.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Is this a problem

11 for the Defence? Otherwise the Defence the approach the witness to check

12 the scar.

13 Very well. Please proceed.

14 MR. WITHOPF:

15 Q. Was there any medical treatment you got in the Zenica Music

16 School after you had been hit on the head and this scar, or this wound,

17 has been inflicted on your head?

18 A. This blow to my head was dealt to me on the first day, and the

19 wound remained an open wound for the 15 days that I was there. No one

20 treated me at all.

21 Q. Can you please inform us whether this wound, this open wound, was

22 visible to the guards.

23 A. They were able to see the open wounds at all times, because it

24 was bleeding all the time. They could see it.

25 Q. Can you please tell us which military unit the guards in the

Page 1437

1 Zenica Music School were part of.

2 A. The guards in the Zenica Music School belonged to the 7th Muslim

3 Brigade.

4 Q. Other than the beatings, the members of the 7th Muslim Mountain

5 Brigade, were there any threats from their side?

6 A. Yes. They did make threats.

7 Q. Can you please detail which sort of threats.

8 A. When I was supposed to leave the Music School, or rather, when

9 they wanted to transfer me to the KPD, the correctional facility, then I

10 had to go up to the first floor to be questioned, at which point their

11 interrogator said that if I told anyone about what had happened, about

12 everything that had happened, after having left Zenica, if I told anyone

13 about anything that had happened, they said that they would find the most

14 distant relatives of mine, my parents, and that wherever they were in the

15 world, regardless of where they were in the world, he said that he would

16 kill them.

17 Q. Has there been any threat to kill you whilst you have been in the

18 Zenica Music School?

19 A. They threatened to kill me on several occasions. I remember one

20 occasion when two Muslim policemen took me outside the Music School. I

21 was given a pickaxe, and they told me to dig a hole in the ground, which

22 I did for about half an hour. And then they started laughing and they

23 said that I should dig deeper, because that was going to be my grave.

24 They said it shouldn't be shallow; it should be a deep grave.

25 Q. Was there any other detainee with you when you dug what has been

Page 1438

1 said being your grave?

2 A. Yes. There was another detainee with me. He was also digging

3 another hole next to where I was, but it wasn't as large as the one I was

4 digging. And afterwards, a little later on, they put some rubbish in

5 that hole. (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 Please proceed.

20 MR. WITHOPF:

21 Q. Witness XA, can you please, for the information of the Trial

22 Chamber, describe the food conditions and the sanitary conditions in the

23 Zenica Music School, the conditions for the detainees.

24 A. The first 40 hours, we weren't given anything to eat. The

25 sanitary conditions were terrible. We slept on wooden sort of pallets,

Page 1439

1 and in the left corner we had a container, five-litre container, which we

2 used to relieve ourselves. To the right, there were four to five benches

3 which we used to sleep.

4 When someone came to the basement, at any time, three or four or

5 2.00 in the morning, we all had to sit and look down at the ground. We

6 were never allowed to raise our heads. The sanitary conditions were very

7 bad.

8 Q. After you haven't got anything to eat for the first 40 hours,

9 what did you get to eat after the first 40 hours?

10 A. Every time they gave us something to eat, it was actually a

11 little bit of water with some rice in it.

12 Q. What does it mean "every time they gave us something to eat"?

13 Can you please go into some detail.

14 A. After those two days, we were sometimes given meals twice a day,

15 sometimes once a day, and it was always water and rice. That's what it

16 was like until the end of my stay there.

17 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber how many other detainees

18 were detained in the basement of the Zenica Music School during the time

19 you have been a detainee in the Zenica Music School.

20 A. When I arrived, there were roughly ten other detainees there, and

21 every day the number of detainees changed. Sometimes -- actually, 25 to

22 30 was the highest number that I saw, and the least I saw was 10. But

23 the detainees were never the same. Some would stay for three days, and

24 you would never see them again; then they would bring in some other ones;

25 and that's how it was.

Page 1440

1 Q. What about the ethnicity of the other detainees?

2 A. While I was there, there were two Serb detainees, and all the

3 rest were Croats.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters kindly request that the microphone

5 of the President be switched off. Thank you.

6 MR. WITHOPF:

7 Q. There were two Serb detainees, and all the rest of the detainees

8 were Croats. The detainees, were they soldiers or were they civilians,

9 as far as you can tell?

10 A. As far as I could tell, most of them were soldiers, but there

11 were some civilians too.

12 Q. Can you, Witness XA, please provide us with some names of the

13 other detainees?

14 MR. WITHOPF: And I would request the Trial Chamber to order to

15 redact the respective portion of the transcript.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Registrar, would you

17 redact the names just cited.

18 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And, in view of the fact that

20 the public is able to hear, the people in the public gallery, these

21 answers should be given in private session. So, Mr. Usher, having said

22 that, may we go into private session, please.

23 I know it's complicated, but we must all make an effort. And

24 we'll have to see from one moment to the next.

25 [Private session]

Page 1444

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

6 MR. WITHOPF:

7 Q. These bodily injuries you were just detailing, were they either

8 visible or were they known to the guards?

9 A. All those bodily injuries were caused by those same guards, so

10 everybody could see them. They were quite obvious and evident.

11 Q. Were the guards actually the very same persons who beat the

12 prisoners?

13 A. Yes. They were guards too. Actually, they weren't guards; they

14 were just the people who were on the first floor all the time, that is to

15 say, the military police of the 7th Muslim Brigade. That's who they

16 were.

17 Q. Moving on to a different issue, Witness XA: Have you ever seen

18 Mujahedin in the Zenica Music School?

19 A. At the Zenica Music School, on the eighth day that I was there in

20 the school, they didn't beat me on that particular day, and one of those

21 policemen belonging to the military police of the 7th Muslim Brigade

22 arrived and told me to go upstairs, to the upper storey, to wash the

23 toilets there. And the WC was to the left of the entrance. On the

24 right-hand side there were three or four men who spoke Arabic, and they

25 had long beards and rifles. And on the butts, there were some sort of

Page 1445

1 scarves, and there were some Arabic writing on the scarves. And I think

2 that they were the Mujahedin.

3 Q. This particular room in which you have seen the Mujahedin, was

4 there any writing on the door?

5 A. On the door of that room there was some writing, right at the

6 top, and it was something written down in Arabic. And in the middle of

7 the door, in the Latin script, it said "Hezbollah."

8 Q. Witness XA, what was your impression of this room? What purpose

9 did this room, based on your impression, serve for?

10 A. I saw the room. It was open. I saw bunk-beds. And there were

11 some soldiers lying down on them in boots. Some of them were laughing.

12 Their rifles were hung on the bed posts. I think it was a dormitory,

13 which enough room to take 20 people.

14 Q. And how many of such Mujahedin have you seen in the Zenica Music

15 School?

16 A. I just saw those three or four that day. I didn't see any more

17 people speaking Arabic in the Music School. As to the other policemen

18 who were there, they were speaking our own language, but they also had

19 very long beards, so it was difficult to distinguish the Mujahedin from

20 them, until they began speaking Arabic.

21 Q. Did you actually hear the individuals whom you describe as being

22 Mujahedin speaking Arabic?

23 A. Yes. On that particular day, I did hear them speaking Arabic,

24 and that's why I said that I had seen the Mujahedin, precisely because

25 they were speaking Arabic.

Page 1446

1 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm now going to show

2 the Witness XA, again, Prosecution Exhibit P5. That's the photo board

3 with the shoulder patches.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf. We must

5 decide about the fate of the other exhibits which were placed on standby.

6 If I remember correctly, the photograph showing the Music School building

7 was one of them, and he can authenticate the photograph with his name.

8 Now -- and that's what he did, I believe.

9 So, Witness, you now have the photograph of the Music School.

10 Could you place your name and date, today's date, on the photograph. You

11 placed a cross on that photograph.

12 Is that right, Mr. Withopf?

13 MR. WITHOPF: Right, Mr. President, Your Honours. I wish to make

14 the witness mark some additional markings at a later point of today's

15 proceedings; therefore, if you could just, for a few minutes, postpone

16 this procedure.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you prefer to

18 take the documents together. As you wish.

19 Witness, keep the document beside you, and we'll decide on what

20 we're going to do with it once the Prosecutor feels you don't need to go

21 back to the documents.

22 So you're going to show him another document now; is that right?

23 MR. WITHOPF: Right. Your Honours, I'm going to show the witness

24 the Prosecution Exhibit P5, which has been shown to the witness at an

25 earlier point in time of today's proceedings.

Page 1447

1 Can the witness please be shown the Prosecution Exhibit P5. It's

2 on the screen, I understand.

3 Q. Witness XA, do you see the photo board with a number of different

4 military shoulder patches in front of you on the screen?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Can you please identify the one or the ones you've seen in the

7 Zenica Music School.

8 A. As I've already said, number 16 was the one I saw, as well as

9 patch number 21. I saw that particular patch on the scarves and head

10 scarves, but it wasn't quite like that. It said "Jihad," and it said

11 something in Arabic. There was the star, the crescent, and a sabre on

12 it. I didn't see any of the other patches in the Music School.

13 Q. Thank you very much, Witness XA.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. So number -- patch

15 21 does not quite correspond to the patch he actually saw, because he

16 said there was an inscription on it, I think, but he said he saw he saw a

17 sabre. So he says that it wasn't exactly the same as the patch on the

18 photograph; at least on the basis of the interpretation I was given.

19 Please continue.

20 MR. WITHOPF:

21 Q. Witness XA, can you please, in some more detail, describe the

22 difference between the patch you've seen on the photo board, or you see

23 on the photo board in front of you, and the patch you've actually seen in

24 the Zenica Music School.

25 A. In the Zenica Music School, I saw the patch on the scarf and on

Page 1448

1 the head scarves, on which it said "Jihad," as it says here on this

2 patch, patch 21. It was exactly like that, except the shape was

3 different.

4 Q. And what was the difference in shape?

5 A. At the bottom, it was rectangular. Otherwise, everything else

6 was the same. Everything else that it said on it was the same. But it

7 wasn't a triangle; it was a rectangle.

8 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, you have in front of you --

9 Witness XA, you have in front of you the photograph with the building

10 which you identified as the Zenica Music School. Can you see on this

11 photograph the room in which the Mujahedin were located within the Zenica

12 Music School?

13 A. Yes, I can.

14 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I think we have to follow the same

15 procedures previously today in the proceedings.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, quite. Please proceed.

17 MR. WITHOPF:

18 Q. Can you please mark on this photograph the room in which the

19 Mujahedin were located.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Residovic.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] What I can see it says on the

22 English transcript here, the Prosecutor mentioned twice -- said they are

23 located, and the interpretation we are receiving means where they were

24 put up, accommodated. Now, the witness never spoke about the

25 accommodation of the Mujahedin. He was talking about the room in which

Page 1449

1 he saw the Mujahedin. So I don't think that the Prosecutor should rely

2 on something that the witness didn't say.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Perhaps there's a problem of

4 interpretation once again between B/C/S, English, and French. Of course,

5 if everybody spoke French, there would be no problem, but as that is not

6 the case, we have to deal with the situation.

7 Mr. Withopf, would you ask your question again, bearing in mind

8 the pertinent observation made by the Defence.

9 MR. WITHOPF: Very well.

10 Q. Witness XA, can you identify and mark on the photograph in front

11 of you the room in which you have seen the Mujahedin during the time of

12 your detention in the Zenica Music School.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you please mark this room on the photograph in front of you.

15 A. [Marks]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Perhaps the witness could place

17 the photograph on the ELMO so that we can all see it.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

20 MR. WITHOPF:

21 Q. Witness XA, unfortunately, I can't see whether you have already

22 marked the room in which you have seen the Mujahedin.

23 A. Yes, I have marked that room.

24 Q. Can you please add a straight line from this marking to the grey

25 area of the photograph and write down "this is the room in which I've

Page 1450

1 seen the Mujahedin."

2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since we're in open session, if

4 we want to show the photograph, place it on the ELMO, we'll have to go

5 into private session. Perhaps it's not necessary to show it at this

6 point, so we can stay in open session.

7 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

8 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honours, this is the last marking I wanted the

9 witness to draw on this photograph, and it can be now, please, be

10 tendered into evidence, after the witness dated and signed it and it has

11 been shown to Defence and the accused, please.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, would you please put

13 your name on the photograph, and today's date. And it is the 14th of

14 January, 2004, today. That's the date.

15 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Usher, could you take the

17 photograph and show it to the Prosecution so that they can check what has

18 been noted.

19 Please show it to the Defence, who will examine everything that

20 has been written down very carefully. Show it to the accused, who will

21 take their time to examine it.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Antonetti, please.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will have a

24 look at it too. Could we have a number, an exhibit number,

25 Mr. Registrar.

Page 1451

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be P7.1,

2 under seal.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Please proceed.

4 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honour, I would like to use this opportunity

5 to also tender the second photograph, showing the basement of the Zenica

6 Music School, into evidence, after the witness has dated and signed it.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, as you did a minute

8 ago, please mark your first and last name on this second photograph, and

9 today's date.

10 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This document will be shown to

12 the Prosecution, then to the Defence, and to the accused. Mr. Registrar,

13 could we have an exhibit number, after having shown us the document in

14 question.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be P8.1,

16 under seal.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I have remembered this

18 correctly, he should have written something down. He wrote something

19 down on a white piece of paper, and we haven't decided on what to do with

20 this piece of paper yet.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, we have dealt with

23 all the exhibits. Usher, could you just check to see that there are no

24 other documents with the witness.

25 There are no other documents, then.

Page 1452

1 Mr. Withopf, would you like to proceed with your

2 examination-in-chief.

3 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Your Honours.

4 Q. In the Zenica Music School, Witness XA, there were the members of

5 the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, as you informed the Trial Chamber about;

6 there were the members of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade military

7 police, as you informed the Trial Chamber about; and there were the

8 Mujahedin, as you informed the Trial Chamber about. How would you

9 describe --

10 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that we

11 discussed this matter a minute ago, and we said that the Mujahedin

12 weren't accommodated there. The witness said that he only saw them there

13 on one occasion, and that was on the eighth day.

14 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honour, there's obviously a translation

15 problem. I said nothing else that the Mujahedin were in the Zenica Music

16 School.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, but it's possible to

18 be there in two modes. One can be passing through, one can be there on a

19 temporary basis, or on a permanent basis. If you want your witness to

20 provide you with details, do ask him some questions. But the Defence

21 quite rightly pointed out that you cannot claim that its members were

22 there at all times, all the time, because that is not what the witness

23 said. You, therefore, have to ask the witness to provide more details

24 about the situation, because, for the moment, we don't know what sort of

25 situation these people were in.

Page 1453

1 MR. WITHOPF: Right. Very well.

2 Q. Witness XA, in the Zenica Music School, there were members of the

3 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade and there were members of the 7th Muslim

4 Mountain Brigade military police, and you have seen Mujahedin in the

5 Zenica Music School. How would you describe the relation between the

6 members of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, the members of the 7th Muslim

7 Mountain Brigade's military police, and the Mujahedin you have seen in

8 the Zenica Music School?

9 A. The relations between the members of the military police of the

10 7th Muslim Brigade and the members of the 7th Muslim Brigade, the

11 soldiers, and the Mujahedin that I saw there, relations were very close,

12 and the soldiers of the 7th Muslim Brigade and the Mujahedin members that

13 I saw there, I think that they went to the battlefield together. But the

14 Mujahedin were there on a temporary basis, I think. I only saw them on

15 that occasion, and never again.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Residovic.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to say that the

18 witness said only what is stated in the last sentence, and he said that

19 before: I saw them then, and never again. Everything else is no more

20 than opinion and conclusions that have no grounds, and I think that the

21 sort of question put to the witness by the Prosecution and this response

22 are not in accordance with the Rules that should be followed when

23 questioning an ordinary, factual witness.

24 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, if I could please respond. Defence

25 counsel may later on cross-examine the witness on this issue, but this is

Page 1454

1 not the right time to make a legal argument on this issue.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The essence of the question is

3 whether the witness saw the people that he mentioned only occasionally,

4 or whether it was on a permanent basis, and this is what the Defence has

5 pointed out. So the witness should avoid inferences.

6 Witness, you've been asked to say what you saw. What did you

7 really see? What was the situation? Did you see there all the time,

8 only temporarily, only occasionally? What did you actually see?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw the Mujahedin on the eighth

10 day. They spoke in the Arabic language. And after that, I never saw

11 them in the Music School again.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the witness has told us that

13 he saw them on the eighth day and that after that day he did not see them

14 again. Isn't that correct?

15 Mr. Withopf, having clarified the matter, please continue with

16 your examination-in-chief.

17 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. Witness XA, you mentioned several times that you have been

19 interrogated. Do you still recall the name of the interrogator?

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Again, the situation is

21 identical. If he mentions the name, as we are in open session, he could

22 be identified. So we will go into private session.

23 Mr. Registrar, could we go into private session, please.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 1461

1 A. Bilmiste, B, Bilmiste.

2 Q. Witness XA, how far is this location, the command of the 7th

3 Muslim Mountain Brigade, away from the -- was it away from the Zenica

4 Music School?

5 A. About three kilometres.

6 Q. Thank you very much, Witness XA.

7 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honours, this concludes the

8 examination-in-chief.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. In order to allow

10 the Defence counsel to proceed with their cross-examination, the Trial

11 Chamber won't ask any questions, although we have a lot of questions.

12 But it's necessary for the cross-examination to be completed.

13 It is half past 5.00. We will have the pause, in accordance with

14 the regulations, and we will resume at 5 to 6.00. And the Defence will

15 have one hour and five minutes to carry out its cross-examination.

16 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed at 5.55,

19 which gives the Defence an hour for their cross-examination, without

20 wasting any further time, I give the floor to the Defence.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1462

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2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. In order to protect

20 confidentiality, I should like to have a ruling prepared, or rather,

21 would the registrar please redact that from the transcript.

22 Please proceed.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May I have permission to say

24 "XA"? In my language, there's a different word for witness in the

25 masculine, and witness in the feminine. So when I say witness, I will

Page 1463

1 have to use one or the other. But yes, I will do my best to call you

2 "XA."

3 Q. Now, on other occasions, did you ever make statements, or to

4 other organs, about what you have testified to today; and if so, would

5 you please tell us.

6 A. You've already asked me. Yes, on one other occasion, but there

7 were no other subsequent occasions.

8 Q. Thank you. May I ask you to make a pause after hearing my

9 question for my microphone to be switched off, so that your voice can't

10 be picked up on my microphone. Thank you.

11 Is it true and correct that in May and June 1992, in the

12 immediate vicinity of your country, conflicts began with the Serb army?

13 A. Conflicts with the Serb army, or rather, between them and the

14 HVO, never occurred in my own village, but there were conflicts between

15 the Serb village of Osojnica and the Muslim village of Ljubac [phoen].

16 Q. On that occasion, did the inhabitants of your village organise

17 themselves because they felt tension in your immediate environment?

18 A. The population did organise itself. Yes, that is true.

19 Q. At the time, you had your own weapon; is that right, and you were

20 armed with that weapon?

21 A. I did not have my own weapon, but I was issued a Kalashnikov.

22 Q. In the village, you organised patrols and village guards; is that

23 right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Until November 1992, you did not belong, in formal terms, to any

Page 1464

1 army, did you?

2 A. No, I did not belong to any army until that date.

3 Q. Asked by my learned colleague of the Prosecution, you said that

4 you joined the HVO in November 1992; is that right?

5 A. Yes, that is right.

6 Q. As a member of the Jure Francetic Brigade, you and all the other

7 members of that brigade had uniforms and weapons; is that correct?

8 A. We didn't all have uniforms and weapons. At the time I joined

9 up, when I joined the brigade, the Jure Francetic Brigade, one platoon

10 numbered approximately 30 men. Of those 30 men, about 20 of them were

11 armed and in uniform.

12 Q. Thank you. When you were transferred to the military police of

13 that brigade, as a military policeman, you had authority over members of

14 your own brigade; is that right?

15 A. Yes. Our authority was restricted to the members of our own

16 brigade. However, we worked together with the members of the members of

17 the military police of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina wherever there was

18 a conflict between the Muslim units and our units, or where there were

19 problems between the two ethnic groups. Then we would go to intervene

20 together.

21 Q. That means that up until this event, when Zivko Totic was

22 kidnapped -- that is to say, your commander -- you frequently went on

23 patrol together and solved problems together with the military police of

24 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; that's right, isn't it?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 1465

1 Q. The HVO had its own checkpoints at some of the exits from town,

2 especially the ones in the direction of Ovnak; is that right?

3 A. What period are you referring to?

4 Q. In the spring of 1993.

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 Q. You were on duty at the Rudarski Hotel, or miners' hotel, when

7 you received information that Commander Zivko Totic had allegedly been

8 killed; is that right?

9 A. Yes, that is right.

10 Q. As you were on the spot to provide security, you learnt from

11 eyewitnesses that Zivko Totic was taken off in a Mercedes kombi van; is

12 that right?

13 A. In a white kombi van, a Mercedes one, which had no windshield in

14 front. Yes, that is correct.

15 Q. The van belonged to the Mujahedin, and they had been seen around

16 driving the van previously; is that right?

17 A. Yes, that is right. I would see them personally on occasion.

18 Frequently, actually.

19 Q. Asked by the Prosecutor, you said that they would be seen in town

20 from time to time. Now, I'm asking you the following: Is it true and

21 correct that many inhabitants and members of the HVO and the army were

22 rather afraid of the Mujahedin when they came across them in town?

23 A. Yes, that is true too, that the members of other ethnic groups

24 were also afraid of those Mujahedin.

25 Q. While you were providing security at the crime scene, where

Page 1466

1 Commander Totic was captured, you said that investigators from the army

2 turned up, and from the civilian police, the MUP of Zenica, in fact; is

3 that right?

4 A. No, that is not correct. I didn't say that the civilian police

5 of the MUP of Zenica arrived. What I said was that members of the BH

6 Army arrived on the spot, as did members of the HVO, and also members of

7 the HDZ, the political party, and members of the other political party,

8 the SDA.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to intervene for the

10 same reason. I think that I'm going to give the floor first to

11 Mr. Withopf.

12 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, I noticed on repeated

13 occasions that my learned colleague is asking questions and making

14 reference to "the army." Since there are different armies involved, I

15 would like to ask my learned colleague to identify which army she is

16 talking about.

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

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20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

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23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1467

1 (redacted)

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted). Witness XA, when I said "the army," when I

8 say "the army," is it clear to you that I mean the Army of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 A. To me, that was quite clear, that you meant the

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina Army. But I'd like to ask you to say, to tell me

12 whether you think that the 7th Muslim Brigade belonged to the BH Army,

13 was it part of the BH Army.

14 Q. I'm not in a position to be able to answer your questions, so

15 please accept this.

16 On the 18th of April, is it true that you found yourself up at

17 the front line, near a place called Grm? And I mean the time when the

18 attack you mentioned was launched against the Croatian centre, or Dom.

19 Is it true and correct that you received an order to withdraw to the

20 Croatian village of Grm?

21 A. Could you switch your microphone off, please. Thank you.

22 That is correct, and that took place on the 18th of April. We

23 withdrew to Grm, and once we arrived up there, it was about 5.00 a.m.,

24 and we were at the Zrnici house, houses. They were all Croatian houses,

25 and they were ablaze when I got there.