1 Thursday, 5 February 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 [B/C/S interpretation on the English Channel]

6 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the interpretation now?

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He can hear the B/C/S

8 translation very well.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: No interpretation.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Could the interpreters please check the channels.

11 Thank you.

12 THE INTERPRETER: And now? Yes. Yes.

13 Can you hear the English Channel now? One, two, three. One,

14 two, three. One, two, three. Yes.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] These things should be checked

16 before the beginning of the hearing.

17 Let us adjourn for a few minutes for the technician to arrive.

18 So I'll give you the floor in a moment. We will suspend the hearing for

19 a few minutes.

20 --- Break taken at 9.03 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 9.08 a.m.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right, then. So we can

23 continue with the session.

24 I'm going to give the floor to the Defence team once again so

25 that they can introduce themselves.

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President. For

2 the Defence of General Enver Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic, lead

3 counsel; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Alexis Demirdjian, legal

4 assistant.

5 At the same time, Your Honour, for the sake of the transcript,

6 I'd like to point out to the fact that on page 1 of the transcript

7 yesterday, lines 19 and 20, there is a mistake in relation to the name of

8 our legal assistant. Yesterday we had Muriel Cauvin, and the transcript

9 says Mirna Milanovic. So could you please correct that. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you for

11 specifying that and for making this correction. It will be taken on

12 board.

13 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. For

14 the Defence of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and our

15 legal assistant.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the name.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to give the floor to

18 the Prosecution once again so they can introduce themselves once again,

19 so for the sake of proper form do please introduce yourself.

20 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

21 Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. For the Prosecution,

22 Mr. Daryl Mundis, Ekkehard Withopf, and the case manager, Kimberly

23 Fleming.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right, then. Thank you

25 very much. So good day to all those present, the Prosecution, the

1 Defence, the accused, and all the rest of the staff in this courtroom.

2 Mr. Registrar, in the future, it would be a good idea if you were

3 able to check that the equipment works properly just before the start of

4 the session so that we don't keep wasting ten minutes at the start of

5 each session.

6 Today we are meant to hear a witness, but before the arrival of

7 the witness I wanted to specify one point in relation to what was said a

8 couple of days ago with regard to the translation of some documents.

9 The Trial Chamber expressed a wish - it's just a simple wish -

10 but, to the extent possible, if you believe that the documents are very

11 important and if you think that they may give rise to a discussion when

12 they are shown to the witness and in the course of the

13 cross-examination -- of course, the Defence may also make other points in

14 relation to those documents. So to the extent to which it is possible,

15 it would be a good idea for these documents to be translated into French

16 as well.

17 If you're unable to do that for technical reasons or whatever, at

18 that stage, okay, we'll be working on the basis of the B/C/S document

19 translated into English. But if it were at all possible, in order to

20 save us time, do please make sure that you have the documents translated

21 into French as well. But we do understand that in certain cases it may

22 cause problems of cost or material difficulties in general.

23 So okay, I just wanted to make that point.

24 Mr. Withopf.

25 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, this is an important

1 issue, and we understand that the Chamber is very well aware of the

2 potential implications; namely, that it could be a potential ground for

3 an appeal, and if successful, such an appeal would result in a retrial --

4 in a retrial of a trial which is scheduled for more than one year; and of

5 a trial in which, at least from the Prosecution's side, more than 100

6 witnesses will be called.

7 Mr. President, Your Honours, any - any - ambiguity must be

8 avoided. The language on the records must be absolutely clear. The

9 question, Mr. President, Your Honours, the question to answer is: Are

10 all three Judges of this Bench - are you, Mr. Presiding Judge, are you,

11 Judge Rasoazanany, and are you, Judge Swart - are you able to read and to

12 understand English to the extent necessary to follow and to fully and

13 comprehensively assess and to evaluate the evidence presented in the

14 English language to decide on the guilt of the accused?

15 There is only the answer yes or no. There is nothing in between.

16 Mr. President, Your Honours, there is a certain background why

17 I'm asking this. As you already mentioned, Mr. President, on 29

18 January - and I refer to the transcript - you, Mr. President, said - and

19 this is a quote - "Therefore, an important document that is tendered into

20 evidence, if the evidence was originally in B/C/S, it should be

21 translated into English and into French to allow the Chamber to fully

22 appreciate the probative value, the relevance, and the weight of the

23 document."

24 And in Your Honour Judge Rasoazanany's official ICTY CV is

25 written -- is written under the section "Languages," "French,

1 conversational English."

2 Again, Mr. President, Your Honours, the question is: Are all

3 three Judges of this Bench able to read and understand English to the

4 extent necessary to fully and comprehensively assess and to evaluate the

5 evidence presented in the English language to decide on the guilt of the

6 accused?

7 I would appreciate, Your Honour, if you would like to finish me,

8 it would take me just one -- one more minute. This is a very serious

9 issue.

10 If the answer is no, I already announce now that the Prosecution

11 will - and it may be joined by the Defence or not - but the Prosecution

12 will apply for an adjournment of proceedings in order to get all - and I

13 repeat, to get all - documents translated into the French language.

14 Due to the volume of the documentary evidence, it can be

15 anticipated that such an adjournment would last for a number of months.

16 Thank you very much, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Withopf, the Trial

18 Chamber cannot but be surprised by your words.

19 I would like to tell you that when this matter of translation was

20 raised, the main reason was that most documents are in the B/C/S.

21 According to the list coming from the Prosecution, these B/C/S documents

22 are translated into English. Yesterday I pointed out that the English

23 translation of a document which was tendered into evidence was already a

24 problem, to the extent that the translation went beyond the contents of

25 the original B/C/S text.

1 In order to be able to assess the value, the probational value

2 [as interpreted] of this document and to be able to assess the merits of

3 the two texts, well, if we look at the -- all the versions, it makes it

4 possible to us to properly judge the contents of the document.

5 As I have mentioned, if it is not possible to proceed and have

6 these texts translated into French as well, we shall continue to work on

7 the basis of the B/C/S and English texts. However, if a text which is

8 either in English or in B/C/S were to require a more in-depth analysis in

9 relation to the scope of the sentences and the interpretation of the

10 sentences included in that text, we could organise this interpretation

11 through the registrar, its translation into French, in order to make

12 proper comparisons.

13 We have seen over the past few months that the problems

14 pertaining to these translations in certain cases led to difficulties,

15 since when witnesses speak B/C/S what they say is interpreted into

16 English and French.

17 And when we compare what was said and what we see on the

18 transcript, sometimes we see slight differences, which means that in

19 certain cases your handling of languages may lead to difficulties. If

20 you do have difficulties, you would then always have the possibility of

21 resorting to a specialised translation or some other practical solution.

22 So far we have never had any problems with this. It is my

23 impression that the Prosecution has not quite grasped the meaning of my

24 comments in relation to the fact that we would wish to have translations

25 into both English and French. I have mentioned this simply in order to

1 save time in the course of our sessions. However, the fact remains that

2 when the text is submitted in English, the Judges are fully capable of

3 appreciating and assessing the text properly. So I fail to understand

4 the meaning of your comments just now.

5 So we are going to continue. So far we've never had any problems

6 with this. But following the comment made by the Prosecution, I would

7 like to hear what the Defence has to say. So I give the floor to the

8 Defence team.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have listened to

10 what you had to say. We base our considerations on the Statute; that is

11 to say, both languages are equal before the Court. We don't know what

12 the technical possibilities are for the secretariat to have the documents

13 we submit translated into French, but to the extent to which we feel this

14 is likely to contribute to a fair trial and a swift proceedings, the

15 Defence will try and stick to your instructions.

16 Unfortunately, Mr. President, I must say that in the first case

17 when I came here in 1996 and - he working language was French but the

18 situation here before the Court is such that the English language seems

19 to prevail. So I myself had to go and learn some English. So the way I

20 see it, yes, we'll try and do as you say, but obviously the English

21 versions, the English translations, will prevail.

22 Apart from that, Mr. President, I believe this was only one of

23 quite a few procedural issues. I mean, this is still in the beginning of

24 the trial. I suppose it should have been discussed in a different way,

25 not quite in the way in which my honourable friend has done just now.

1 But maybe there should have been a Status Conference where we could have

2 discussed this and similar issues which have not been clarified as yet.

3 So in that respect, the Defence teams - the two Defence teams -

4 will -- I would like to suggest a Status Conference or an extra session

5 where we could discuss all these procedural issues. And we would like to

6 get some guidance from the Trial Chamber as to how to proceed so as to

7 avoid any such misunderstandings in the future. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] With regard to the points of

9 procedure, what point are you referring to?

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In the communication that we've

11 had so far between the two Defence teams, we have jotted down about three

12 or four issues. We would like to suggest that in writing, and then it

13 will be up to the Trial Chamber whether we have a Status Conference or

14 not.

15 As you might know, we raised some of these issues in the very

16 beginning, and some of them have already been solved. It is about

17 cross-examination, about second-hand evidence, and some other issues

18 where perhaps we don't have fully specified rules.

19 We have noticed that there are two or three other similar issues.

20 We will submit our comments in writing. And if the Trial Chamber

21 believes that they should listen to what both sides have to say on these

22 points, in that case we would like to have a separate Status Conference

23 so that we can discuss all these points and for the Trial Chamber to give

24 us some guidance as to how to proceed in the future.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

1 Mr. Dixon.

2 MR. DIXON: Your Honours, on the translation issue, for the

3 Defence team for Mr. Kubura, we will certainly endeavour, Your Honour,

4 within our means, to translate as many of the documents we will rely upon

5 and the documents we regard as key into the French language in order to

6 ensure proper respect for the Tribunal's official languages, which are

7 both French and English. So we will endeavour to do whatever we can in

8 that regard. I'm grateful, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Dixon.

10 As to the Status Conference, we shall see about it and we'll let you

11 know.

12 Now we can proceed to hear the witness. And I'm going to ask

13 Madam Registrar to bring the witness in.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning. Can you hear me

16 in your own language?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You have been

19 called to appear as a Prosecution witness. In order to do that, please

20 tell me your name and date of birth.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Ivan Josipovic, and I

22 was born on the 29th of November, 1957 in Mehurici, Travnik municipality.

23 I'm currently living in the town of Vitez.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. What is your

25 current occupation?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am a graduate lawyer. I am

2 currently retired and unemployed.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in 1993, some ten years

4 ago, what were you doing? What was your occupation at the time?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may add a couple of sentences.

6 I completed elementary and secondary school in Vitez. I

7 graduated at the School of Law in Zenica, which is a department of

8 Sarajevo University. Upon graduation in 1975 --

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That was not my question. I'm

10 not asking you about your studies. I'm asking you about your occupation.

11 You told us that today you were a lawyer, and I am asking you what your

12 occupation was ten years ago. Were you a lawyer, a student, an

13 unemployed person, or a military man?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is precisely what I wanted to

15 tell you; that is, that before the outbreak of the war I worked in Vitez

16 municipality as a clerk for property relations.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You're going to

18 testify, and to do that you have to take the solemn declaration. So will

19 you please read the text given to you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 WITNESS: IVAN JOSIPOVIC

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you are a lawyer, it may be

2 superfluous for me to say what I'm going to say, but I still wish to

3 point out that you have taken a solemn declaration regarding your

4 testimony, as you know that solemn declarations means that you must not

5 make any false testimony. Should you do that, you could be prosecuted.

6 And according to the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, it is provided that

7 when answering questions, if there are any elements that may incriminate

8 you, in that case you can say so. And one day these words cannot -- or

9 these elements cannot be taken against you. This is also part of the

10 Rules of Procedure and Evidence. Therefore, please answer questions as

11 fully and precisely as possible.

12 As you know, you will be answering questions put to you by

13 representatives of the Prosecution, which are seated to your right. At

14 the completion of what is known as the examination-in-chief, you will

15 have to answer questions within the framework of the cross-examination by

16 counsel for the Defence, who are seated to your left. And the three

17 Judge in front of you, should the need arise, according to Rule 89, may

18 put questions to you as well for clarification purposes. That is how

19 this hearing will proceed.

20 If you have any difficulties with a particular question, you can

21 always ask the person putting it to you to rephrase it. If you still

22 find it difficult, you can address the Chamber, which is in charge of the

23 proceedings.

24 We will begin with the examination-in-chief. And for that

25 purpose, I give the floor to the representative of the Prosecution.

1 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

3 Q. Witness, in what year did you graduate from the law faculty?

4 A. I graduated in 1985 in Zenica, which is a department of the

5 Faculty of Law.

6 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber briefly where you were employed

7 between 1985 and the summer of 1992.

8 A. [No interpretation]

9 Q. Excuse me, Witness.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, we're not receiving the

11 interpretation.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There's a problem. The

13 interpretation is not reaching us.

14 Please repeat the question, and we will check.

15 MR. MUNDIS:

16 Q. Witness, can you please tell the Trial Chamber briefly where you

17 were employed between 1985 and the summer of 1992.

18 A. Upon graduation from the Faculty of Law, my first job was in

19 Vitez municipality in the cadastre department. I was a clerk for

20 property and legal issues. I worked there briefly, three to four months.

21 And after that, in the same administrative bodies, I was moved to the

22 post of inspector in the fiscal administration. I was a tax inspector,

23 as it was called then. I worked there for about two years.

24 After that, there was a vacancy for the magistrate's judge, and I

25 was elected to that position. I held that position for about four to

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13 English transcripts.

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1 five years.

2 After that, again there was a vacancy in the police station in

3 Vitez, and I was appointed to the position Chief of Legal and

4 Administrative Affairs. And I stayed in that position until the events

5 that followed, that is, until the heightening of tensions between these

6 two peoples. And this occurred towards the end of 1992.

7 Q. Witness, can you tell the Trial Chamber about the rise in

8 tensions between the different communities in the Vitez area in the

9 second half of 1992.

10 A. As far as I was able to observe, and working as the head of the

11 legal affairs department in the police station of Vitez, I noticed that

12 between the chief of the police station in Vitez, who headed the police

13 station at the time - and his name was Pero Skopljak - whereas, the head

14 of the uniformed police was Saban Mahmutovic. And judging by the way the

15 reserve force of the police was organised, I noticed that both gentlemen

16 sought to arm as many persons as possible with military equipment,

17 uniforms. And I was able to see this on the basis of the number of

18 booklets that were issued through the department that I was working in.

19 This was my personal conclusion, that already at that time inter-ethnic

20 relations were disrupted and tensions increased.

21 Q. Witness, during the time that you were the head of the legal

22 affairs and administrative department in the Vitez police department, did

23 you have any contact or involvement with foreign fighters?

24 A. I had no contact whatsoever during that period of time while I

25 was at the head of the legal and administrative department.

1 Q. Did you have any involvement with foreign fighters at a later

2 point in time?

3 A. Yes. Yes. When sometime in November I joined the HVO - that is,

4 the military police of the 4th Battalion of the Vitez HVO - as an

5 investigator, I did have occasion to have contact with certain foreigners

6 who came to our area, both individually and in small groups.

7 Q. What were your primary duties as an investigator with the

8 military police of the 4th Battalion of the Vitez HVO?

9 A. As an officer and investigator in the 4th Battalion, my main duty

10 was to investigate all criminal offences that may occur in the area that

11 was under the control of the HVO and which were committed by HVO troops.

12 These were mostly acts of burglary, theft, break-ins, self-inflicted

13 wounds, et cetera.

14 Q. Witness, did you have the opportunity to investigate any crimes

15 allegedly committed by ABiH forces against Croat civilians, such as in

16 Dusina or Maljine?

17 A. No. No. I personally did not, nor was I aware that any one of

18 my colleagues in the 4th Battalion was assigned to going to Maljine or

19 Dusina to investigate those acts.

20 Q. Why not?

21 A. As this area was under the control of the Army and Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina, it was dangerous to go there and to make any kind of notes.

23 Q. Did there come a time, Witness, in the summer of 1993 when you

24 were detained at a checkpoint?

25 A. Yes. This was on the 7th of August, 1993. As I was returning

1 from duty, together with a colleague, and I intended to drop him off at

2 Novi Travnik, which I did in fact. I left him there. And on my way back

3 from Novi Travnik towards Vitez, at a crossroads of the Vitez-Travnik

4 roads, I took a wrong turn, so that with my own passenger vehicle, a

5 Golf, I turned left in the direction of Travnik believing I was driving

6 towards Vitez.

7 Not far from this crossroads, at a location called Kanare or

8 Dolac, where there's a road turning off towards Guca Gora, I came across

9 an obstacle on the road. I couldn't pass. I stopped. And just then I

10 saw -- I realised that I had made a mistake and that I was in an area

11 controlled by the BH army.

12 Q. How did you come to the conclusion that you were in an area

13 controlled by the BH army?

14 A. When I stopped in my vehicle next to the obstacle, there were

15 guards who consider securing the road and they were dressed in uniform

16 and they had white belts, from which I concluded that they were members

17 of the military police, because we, too, in the HVO wore similar belts.

18 Q. Were there any distinctive insignia on their uniforms that

19 allowed you to determine which army or which unit of which army these

20 military police belonged to?

21 A. Apart from the military belts that they were wearing, they also

22 had patches on their sleeves. On one arm, there were the lily patches.

23 In those days, these were worn.

24 Q. Which army or which military unit wore patches, lily patches?

25 A. Such patches were worn by members of the Army of Bosnia and

1 Herzegovina.

2 Q. What happened after you stopped your vehicle at this checkpoint

3 manned by ABiH military police officers?

4 A. After I was stopped, I was roughly pulled out of my car and --

5 one of them came up to me, opened the door, and pulled me out roughly

6 from the car. And he shoved me into another vehicle that was standing

7 nearby. And another one of them took my car and with these two

8 vehicles - they were driving their own car and this other man, who was

9 driving mine - we went not far from that spot, about 150 to 200 metres

10 away to the building of an elementary school. I was taken there to the

11 officer on duty. What exactly was his role, I cannot recollect now, but

12 I know that I was brought before him and he asked me some routine

13 questions, my name, where I was from. And then later he called up

14 somebody on the phone - and I was later to learn that it was the Main

15 Staff in Travnik - I was there for a very short period of time, after

16 which I was driven to the barracks in Travnik, that is, the entrance of

17 the barracks in Travnik, where they took me.

18 Q. Witness, approximately what time on 7 August 1993 did you arrive

19 at the barracks in Travnik?

20 A. I'm unable to recollect exactly what time it was, but I think it

21 was sometime in the evening, maybe around 10.00 in the evening. I may be

22 wrong. It may have been a bit earlier than that. But anyway, between

23 9.00 and 10.00 in the evening.

24 Q. Upon your arrival at the main entrance to the Travnik barracks,

25 did you see any soldiers at that point in time? And if so, were you able

1 to determine what units or military organisation they belonged to?

2 A. At that point in time, when I arrived in front of the entrance to

3 the barracks, I noticed that there were guards at the gates. They were

4 again wearing uniforms with white belts, and just then I didn't know

5 which unit they belonged to. I just noticed that they were wearing

6 patches of the BH army -- with the lilies, of course.

7 Q. After your arrival at the main entrance to the Travnik barracks,

8 where were you taken?

9 A. After I had passed through the gate itself, I was taken to a room

10 at the very entrance to the barracks. It's a kind of hut which, as far

11 as I can remember today, consisted of two or three rooms. And I was

12 taken into one of them. And I was left there. Not for interrogation; I

13 was simply taken inside and left there to these policemen who were on

14 duty that night at the entrance to the barracks.

15 Q. Can you describe for the Trial Chamber the room that you were

16 taken into, the size of the room and physically -- a physical description

17 of the room, please.

18 A. The room was roughly 3 metres by 5 in size. There was nothing in

19 particular inside. There was a small window high up on the wall. At the

20 entrance to that room, there was no door. There was just concrete on the

21 floor. And I was put there with nothing in it, in the room.

22 Q. Was there any furniture in the room?

23 A. No, at that moment.

24 Q. Were you alone in the room, or were there other people being kept

25 in that room?

1 A. No. When I arrived, there was no one; I was alone.

2 Q. How long were you kept in this room?

3 A. That night was the worst night of my life. After they had left

4 me in that room, they started taking it out on me, both psychologically

5 and physically abusing me. They told me to take off my clothes; I did

6 so. And after I had stripped and when I was completely naked, they

7 started beating me with various objects. They kicked me. They hit me

8 with their fists. Then they brought some sort of a chair, then a bar.

9 And so they beat me, until at one point I fainted.

10 When I came to, they ordered me to go to the room next door. And

11 there was a shower there. It was a kind of toilet or a bathroom of

12 sorts. And they turned on the cold water for me to regain consciousness,

13 after which they gave me some clothes that they found there. They gave

14 me a pair of trousers and a shirt, which I put on.

15 Q. Witness, you made reference to "they," the people who mistreated

16 you. How many people participated in this beating?

17 A. As far as I am able to remember now, I think there were three or

18 four of them who happened to be in that room at the time, three or four

19 soldiers with white belts.

20 Q. How long were you detained in this room?

21 A. I stayed in that room until the morning, throughout the night.

22 And when it dawned, I was alone, lying on the concrete floor.

23 Q. Witness, perhaps -- perhaps my question wasn't clear. For what

24 period of time were you kept in this room?

25 A. If you're referring to that night or generally, how much time I

1 stayed there?

2 Q. I'm referring to the total duration of time that you were

3 detained in this room.

4 A. Oh, I see. I understand your question now. I was kept in that

5 room for some 50 days or so.

6 Q. During the 50 days or so that you were detained in this room,

7 were you able to become aware of which unit or units the military police

8 who mistreated you were assigned to?

9 A. Yes, approximately. In the course of those 50 days that I spent

10 in that room, I found out from the guards and also from other people who

11 subjected me to an investigation later on that since at the time they

12 called themselves Krajiska police and that it was mostly the members of

13 that Krajiska police. But as to what brigade, what unit they belonged to

14 exactly, I never found out really.

15 Q. On this first night, this beating that you've described for the

16 Chamber, do you have any idea how long that period of beating took place

17 on that first night?

18 A. That first night, as I've said already, they beat me up so badly

19 that I fainted, whereupon they did not beat me again on that same night.

20 But the beatings and the physical and psychological abuse went on for the

21 entire duration, for all of those 50 days. For the most part it happened

22 when I was being interrogated and also in the evenings, when I had to use

23 the toilet or when I asked for a drink of water, either for myself or for

24 my colleague, who was also brought to my cell after a certain period of

25 time.

1 Q. How frequently did these beatings occur?

2 A. In the course of that 50-day period, I think that almost every

3 evening I was hit several times or kicked. They beat me with their

4 fists. Mostly the guards who were on duty that particular night. And it

5 normally tended to happen in the evenings, as I said.

6 Q. You told us, Witness, that this room did not have a door on it.

7 Did there come a time when a door was put on that room?

8 A. Yes. That room where I found myself was later supplied with a

9 door. And as far as I can remember, maybe six or seven days after I

10 arrived, they put bars on the door as well as a proper door.

11 Q. Witness, you also told us that a colleague was brought into the

12 cell after a certain period of time. Do you recall how many days passed

13 before your colleague was brought into the cell?

14 A. About 30 days had gone by when he was brought to that cell.

15 Q. Do you recall the name of your colleague who was brought into

16 that cell with you?

17 A. Yes, I do. I do remember well, since he is living in Vitez

18 today. His name is Pero Samija, and he was found at Travnik hospital.

19 He was wounded. He had been wounded in Vitez, and then he was

20 transferred to Travnik. But that was before the major conflicts were

21 taking place in the area of Travnik. And after greater problems, after

22 bigger conflicts, he found himself as a patient in the hospital at

23 Travnik, and so he couldn't go back to Vitez.

24 Q. You told us, Witness, that you were interrogated. Do you recall

25 the number of times that you were interrogated while you were detained in

1 this room?

2 A. Yes, I do. Three times.

3 Q. Do you recall the first time that you were interrogated? And can

4 you describe that for the Trial Chamber, please.

5 A. The first interrogation happened straight on the first morning,

6 the following morning. I was interrogated -- as far as I could tell, I

7 was interrogated by the head of the department or whatever, some sort of

8 boss of that military police. And they were the ones guarding the

9 entrance to the barracks of Travnik.

10 Q. What type of questions were you asked by this military police

11 officer?

12 A. Well, first of all, the general information, name and so on. And

13 then for the most part he asked me what military unit or formation I

14 belonged to; how many soldiers were in the unit; how many people were

15 armed in the city of Vitez.

16 Q. What did the interrogator do with the information that you

17 provided to him?

18 A. They were writing it down, and that statement that they took from

19 me, well, I suppose he submitted it to the other officer who came to

20 subject me to another more detailed interrogation after a few days.

21 Q. Did you on that or any other occasion while you were detained at

22 the Travnik barracks sign any statements?

23 A. Yes. I had to sign that statement because there was always a

24 policeman next to me with a bat, and I had no choice basically. I had to

25 sign the statement I gave to them.

1 Q. Can you recall any of the specific details about the second time

2 you were interrogated?

3 A. Yes. When I was interrogated the second time, the first thing I

4 remarked was that the person taking my statement was much more of an

5 expert in interrogation techniques, because at the end of my statement he

6 himself said to me that he was a legal expert by profession, that he was

7 a law graduate, and that he was from the area of Krajina.

8 And more specifically, I'd like to stress that when I was giving

9 him my statement, at one point my former fellow student from primary

10 school, Mujezinovic, came in. I think his first name is Enver. And he

11 must have heard that I was in Travnik. And in a rather rough way, he

12 told me, "Now you are going to see. Once we take Vitez, we will kill all

13 the babies still in their mother's bellies." And this had an effect on

14 me. It had a frightening effect on me, since I knew that guy,

15 Mujezinovic, rather well, and I had never thought he was such an extreme

16 nationalist.

17 Q. What type of clothing was Enver Mujezinovic wearing when he said

18 these words to you?

19 A. He was wearing his uniform, his standard uniform.

20 Q. Were you able to determine which army or military unit he was in

21 by looking at his uniform?

22 A. I couldn't do so at the time. I couldn't assess exactly what

23 unit he would have belonged to. But I believed and I saw quite clearly

24 that he had the lilies insignia of the BH army on his uniform.

25 Q. Witness, the person with the law training who was conducting this

1 interview, what type of clothing was that person wearing?

2 A. He, too, was wearing a uniform, a shirt. And since he was an

3 office-worker, he only wore a shirt and a pair of trousers. And

4 obviously, he had the BH army insignia on his shirt.

5 Q. Do you know this individual's name or perhaps which military unit

6 he was assigned to?

7 A. I did not know the person's name, and I did not know what unit he

8 belonged to, but I was aware of the fact that in that area the 3rd

9 Corps - or perhaps the 7th Corps, as it had been changed afterwards - was

10 active in that area.

11 Q. Can you briefly tell the Trial Chamber about the third instance

12 in which you were interrogated while detained in that room at the Travnik

13 barracks.

14 A. Well, about 50 days that I spent in that room next to the gates

15 or the entrance to the barracks -- once again, one of the members of the

16 investigation team from the BH army came and took me to a place about 100

17 metres away inside the barracks, in another building. And later on, I

18 learned that his name was Kasim and that prior to the start of the

19 hostilities, he used to work at the police station in Travnik.

20 Q. What happened after you were taken to this place inside the

21 barracks?

22 A. He himself entered the room, and he said his name was Kasim, and

23 he asked me to follow him. At that stage I didn't know where he was

24 taking me to, but later on I saw he took me to a building within the

25 perimeter of the barracks and he took me to a room where there was the

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1 commander of that detention centre. His name was Jugo.

2 Q. What happened after you were taken into the room with this person

3 known as Jugo?

4 A. Just one correction, sir, if I may. Jugo did not take me there.

5 I got to that office accompanied by Kasim. So I entered the room where

6 Jugo was sitting together with Kasim, and Jugo was the superior there.

7 And then Jugo left the room, and I was left alone with Kasim who

8 proceeded to take a statement from me.

9 Q. Did you see any distinctive insignia or other indicators on

10 Jugo's clothing as to which military unit he belonged?

11 A. No. Apart from the fact that he was wearing a uniform and he had

12 those insignia of the BH army.

13 Q. Witness, do you know why you were interrogated on three different

14 occasions while being detained in the Travnik barracks?

15 A. Well, to this day it is not clear to me why I was interrogated so

16 many times. Perhaps it was because the very fact of taking me was a bit

17 bizarre from their point of view, because I basically walked in on my

18 own. And secondly, they thought I was perhaps one of the high-ranking

19 officials within the HVO, since I was a law graduate and since I was a

20 member of the military police. And they thought that by virtue of that

21 very fact I was likely to provide them with a lot of information in

22 relation to the situation, the combat readiness, and the information they

23 were looking for. They were trying to find out as much as possible about

24 the situation in Vitez.

25 Q. Witness, were you in fact a high-ranking official within the HVO?

1 A. No. I was just an -- a member of the investigative team in the

2 4th Military Police. And as I did say earlier on, my only duty was

3 investigating any infringements committed by the HVO members in the area

4 covered by that unit. So no way was I a high-ranking official.

5 Q. At the time you were detained on 7 August 1993, what was your

6 rank, your military rank?

7 A. I had no rank at the time when I was taken.

8 Q. Following the third interrogation by Kasim, where were you taken

9 after that interrogation?

10 A. So once that interrogation was over, I myself -- actually, a

11 couple of us, because I think -- no, I think there were about four or

12 five of us soldiers from the HVO. We were taken to a place not far away

13 from the barracks to the building of the former HVO government in

14 Travnik, and that building is next to the hotel in Travnik. It was

15 called the building next to the three pine trees.

16 Q. Do you recall the names of any of these other four or five HVO

17 soldiers?

18 A. Yes, I do. I do recollect the names clearly. The soldiers who

19 were with me were Dzidzic Ljiljan, Bobas -- just a moment. Krunoslav

20 Bonic, Dzidzic Ljiljan, and then Zulj Stipo, and some of them stayed in

21 Travnik, such as Slipac Nikica, Jelencic Zivko was another one.

22 Q. Witness, prior to the time you were taken to the former HVO

23 government building in Travnik, were you kept in any other rooms in the

24 Travnik barracks compound, other than the room by the guardhouse where

25 you stayed for 50 days?

1 A. Yes. So after the first interrogation on the part of Kasim, I

2 was kept in a room of that building, in the basement, and I was put in a

3 room where there were also soldiers of the BH army.

4 Q. And how long did you remain in the room with the soldiers of the

5 BH army?

6 A. I can't remember how many days exactly, but I think I stayed

7 there about 30 to 40 days in that room, together with the BH army

8 soldiers.

9 Q. Were you later in a basement room in that building with other HVO

10 soldiers?

11 A. Yes. As I was saying, after 30 to 40 days that I spent with the

12 soldiers of the BH army, I was moved to a room where there were just the

13 imprisoned HVO soldiers.

14 Q. And how many people were detained in this room with you?

15 A. Once again, I can't tell you exactly. But I think there were

16 about 10, maybe a dozen, 13 soldiers.

17 Q. Witness, were these the same soldiers whose names you provided to

18 us a few moments ago?

19 A. Yes. Those three or four that I've given you the names for. And

20 there was some others as well, but right now I don't seem to be able to

21 recollect the names. But those soldiers as well, the ones I mentioned

22 before, were in that same room.

23 Q. During the time you were kept in this basement room with these

24 HVO soldiers, were you physically mistreated at any point in time?

25 A. I myself, no. But I saw that other HVO soldiers were mistreated.

1 Q. Can you describe for the Trial Chamber any of those incidents

2 where other HVO soldiers were mistreated.

3 A. Yes, I can. I remember well one situation in particular,

4 Krunoslav Bonic, who was the youngest in that room, well, one of the

5 guards - I think his name was Mujo and he was from the area of Siprag,

6 not very far from Travnik - and whenever he was on duty, he would take

7 the above-mentioned Kruno out and he would beat him up so badly and

8 sometimes even before our very eyes. And sometimes he would take him a

9 bit further away to another room and we could hear his screams. And then

10 he would bring him back to our room.

11 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the other individuals who were

12 mistreated?

13 A. I remember one occasion only, when Mr. Ivo Rajkovic, who was also

14 brought to our room together with Ivo Fisic, and on his way back --

15 coming back from the toilet one of the BH army attacked him, kicked him

16 very badly, hit him with his fist - and that before the eyes of the

17 guards who were there to guard us.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time. This is

19 approximately when we take our recess.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right, then. We are going

21 to have a technical break now. It is 10.30, and we shall continue with

22 the hearing at five to 11.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation]

1 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I don't know if it's going to be a

2 problem again, but I didn't get French -- or English translation.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation]

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises.

5 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.

6 Q. Witness --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No problem. Everything's

8 working now.

9 You have the floor.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Q. Witness, after you were detained in the -- how long were you

12 detained in the basement of the barracks building in Travnik, in total?

13 A. I cannot remember exactly for how many days it was, but I do know

14 that on the 24th of December, 1993 I was transferred from that basement

15 to the KP Dom in Zenica.

16 Q. So the period that you were detained at the barracks compound,

17 including at the gatehouse, was from 7 August 1993 until 24 December

18 1993; is that right?

19 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

20 Q. And you've also told us about being placed in the HVO building in

21 town; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. How long were you kept in that location?

24 A. I can't remember exactly the number of days I spent there, but I

25 believe, as we have already said, that my sojourn in Travnik lasted from

1 the 7th of August, 1993 until the 24th of December, 1993. Now, I cannot

2 be precise as to the number of days.

3 Q. Witness, as a result of the physical mistreatment that you

4 received, do you have any lingering medical conditions?

5 A. I do. They are mainly manifested in the form of frequent

6 headaches, so that I need to take a painkiller or some sedatives to calm

7 me down. So these are occasional health problems that I have.

8 Q. Thank you, Witness.

9 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Before giving the floor to Defence counsel, I have a few minor

12 points of clarification regarding your answers.

13 Questioned by the Court:

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A question was put to you

15 regarding your professional career. You explained that you studied at

16 the Faculty of Law and that after that you were employed in the cadastre

17 of the Vitez municipality. And then I see the English text, which

18 indicates this. And after that, you became an inspector in the fiscal

19 administration. You worked there for about two years. And then

20 according to what you said, it appears that for several years you held

21 the position of a magistrate or a judge. Could you be more precise on

22 this point. What did you do exactly? What were your duties?

23 A. Mr. President, what you have just said is quite correct, but let

24 me just elaborate. My first job was in the cadastre, then two years as

25 inspector for social revenues. And after that, I worked as a magistrate

1 judge.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I was inquiring about your work

3 as a judge. So you were in charge of -- you acted as a judge for traffic

4 violations.

5 A. My exact title was Judge for Minor Offences Attached to Vitez

6 Municipality, and I worked in that position for four or five years. This

7 actually entailed offences against public law and order, so offences in

8 the area of traffic, then offences in the sense of failure to pay taxes,

9 and things like that.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the English text, it was

11 indicated - and this may be an error of interpretation - that you were

12 elected to this position of judge. There's the word "elected"; whereas

13 later on you were appointed as head of the legal and administrative

14 department. As a judge, were you elected or appointed to that position?

15 A. As regards appointments for -- to the position of judge, at the

16 Municipal Council I was elected. There was a vacancy, a competition, and

17 I was admitted to this position.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you were elected and

19 appointed. There was no proper election, was there?

20 A. No, no, there wasn't a vote. I applied for the post, and I was

21 appointed.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So in the English text, the

23 word "elected" should be replaced with "appointed." So this is a minor

24 point of precision.

25 When you were a lawyer, you studied law. You even had a legal

1 position. When you were detained - and you said in response to a

2 question from the Prosecution that you were detained for several months -

3 when you left prison, were you given a document indicating that you had

4 been released? Were you given a document?

5 A. I have to go back for a moment to the time when I was detained in

6 Travnik. A legal proceedings were instituted against me, and two or

7 three times I was interrogated in the military court and after

8 statements, I was released. But I never received that document. But I

9 learnt that the proceedings were halted and this was also published in a

10 paper called Travnicki Ljiljani, and the public prosecutor, Mr. Sead

11 Zeric, in his statement said that the proceedings against me were being

12 dropped because there was no proof that I had committed any criminal

13 offence. And I attached this to my statement.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what were the charges

15 against you?

16 A. As it was stated in the criminal report, according to my

17 recollection, the charge was armed rebellion, or something to that

18 effect.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you for these

20 clarifications that emanated from the examination-in-chief.

21 Having made these remarks, I turn to the Defence to give them the

22 floor for the cross-examination. You have the floor.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Josipovic.

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. I'm Edina Residovic, and I am Defence counsel for

3 General Hadzihasanovic. I would like to ask you to be kind enough to

4 answer some of my questions. Of course, you will answer to the best of

5 your knowledge.

6 You told the Trial Chamber that in 1992 -- let me rephrase it.

7 Is it true that in June 1992 you were appointed chief of legal affairs

8 within the Secretariat of the Interior of Vitez Municipality?

9 A. I cannot give you a precise answer to that question because, as I

10 said in my statement, I wasn't appointed chief of legal affairs. But

11 upon the proposal of the then-head of the police station, Mr. Pero

12 Skopljak, I was invited to an interview and asked whether I would accept

13 that position. And I said I would, as I had been a judge for four or

14 five years and I had had enough of that kind of work.

15 Q. However, in mid-1992, when you accepted the position offered to

16 you, the internal affairs body was still working as a multi-ethnic body,

17 wasn't it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. However, already at the time, that is, in mid-1992 or the second

20 half of 1992, you had already noticed certain signs of tension,

21 particularly with respect to the engagement of individuals for the

22 reserve police force; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the ID cards for the reserve police were -- gave those people

25 other entitlements, such as the right to carry a weapon.

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1 A. As regards engagement for the reserve police force, as far as I

2 know, initially people were given uniforms, ID cards. And as for the

3 details, now, whether weapons were issued, I cannot tell you.

4 Q. Is it true, however, Mr. Josipovic, that in fact there was a

5 certain kind of competition between the head, who was a Croat, and his

6 deputy, the chief of the uniformed police, as to who would issue more ID

7 cards to members of his own ethnic group? Was that the reason for the

8 tensions that you referred to?

9 A. Mostly, yes. There were frequent disagreements between the head

10 of the police station and the head of the uniformed police. That is when

11 I noticed that the two of them would have some disputes as to why so many

12 IDs were issued to so many people, et cetera.

13 Q. Well, you just explained that. My question was that the tensions

14 and the possibility of a conflict between the army and the HVO was one of

15 the reasons why you formally joined the HVO.

16 A. Those tensions towards the end of 1992 increased to such a point

17 that on both sides uniformed units started to be formed. And that is how

18 I, too, decided at the beginning of November 1992 to join the HVO. To be

19 more concrete, I joined the 4th Military Police Battalion.

20 Q. As you said in response to a question from the Prosecutor, you

21 worked as a crime investigator and your duties included investigations in

22 the case of smuggling, theft, and occasionally murder.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Working in that area, you were not an ordinary soldier; you were

25 actually an officer of the HVO without a particular rank, were you?

1 A. I wasn't an officer. I was just an officer investigator in the

2 criminal police. This was a section of the police whose main duties were

3 to investigate criminal acts that may have been perpetrated by members of

4 the HVO.

5 Q. Shortly after you joined the HVO, overt conflicts started between

6 the HVO and the BH army primarily in the areas of Kiseljak and Busovaca,

7 and later in other areas as well; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Because of these conflicts and as a result of those conflicts, a

10 large portion of the Bosniak Muslim population from Busovaca, Vitez, and

11 Kiseljak left the area and most of them headed towards Zenica; is that

12 right?

13 A. This is a question I cannot answer in the affirmative because the

14 largest conflicts that started in April 1993, I didn't notice one or

15 other ethnic group departing.

16 Q. Actually, most of the exodus occurred in April, after the

17 massacre in Ahmici; is that right?

18 A. Yes, that is more or less correct.

19 Q. Within the framework of your duties as a crime inspector, you

20 said that you mostly investigated criminal acts, thefts, burglaries, and

21 murders, the victims of which were members of the Croatian people and

22 which occurred in the area under the control of the HVO; is that right?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. Actually, as a military policeman of the HVO, you could not go to

25 the areas under the control of the BH army to carry out any

1 investigations there; is that right?

2 A. Yes, that is right, because the conflict had already started and

3 it was dangerous and even impossible for one to carry out any

4 investigations over there.

5 Q. That applied in the opposite case too. The military police of

6 the BH army couldn't come to Busovaca, Kiseljak, or Vitez to investigate

7 things that it felt it should investigate. This applied to both sides,

8 didn't it?

9 A. Yes. After these large-scale conflicts, neither side had access

10 to the other side or the areas controlled by the other side, to try and

11 investigate over there.

12 Q. In answer to a question from the Prosecutor, by way of an example

13 you said that your military police did not carry out any investigations

14 in connection with events that you had heard had happened in Dusina and

15 Miletici; is that right?

16 A. Yes. As far as I know -- in fact, I'm quite certain that our

17 military police, the military police I belonged to, did not go to Dusina

18 or to Maljine.

19 Q. But is it true, Mr. Josipovic, that most of the inhabitants of

20 those villages crossed to the area under HVO control and that their

21 statements were taken by the security service, the so-called SIC? Is

22 that right?

23 A. Would you clarify that question.

24 Q. Most of the inhabitants of Dusina and Miletici, which you

25 mentioned as examples, after those events crossed to areas under HVO

1 control and statements from those persons were taken by the security

2 service of the HVO.

3 A. I have no information about that, what you are referring to. So

4 I cannot answer that question.

5 Q. If you gave a different answer regarding that matter in your

6 statement given to the Prosecution, that means that you -- that you were

7 misunderstood; is that right? Because in your statement you say that you

8 heard of those events - this is paragraph 14 - "I do not remember ever

9 taking a statement from the survivors. I think this was something the

10 Security Intelligence Service handled, the SIS."

11 A. I would just add: As stated in that statement, that I and the

12 military police did not do that. Now, whether this was done by the SIS,

13 I don't think I had any information about it, whether they did that or

14 didn't. I cannot say with any certainty.

15 Q. Very well. Thank you.

16 Also, your service and your military police also did not carry

17 out any investigations after the massacre in Ahmici, did you?

18 A. No, that's right; we didn't.

19 Q. Is it true, Mr. Josipovic, that after that event a permanent and

20 very hot combat lines were established between the Army of Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina and the Croatian Defence Council throughout the Lasva Valley?

22 Is that right?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. That was the reason why you also moved from a building that was

25 less safe, that is, from the Vitez Hotel, to a building that was safer.

1 A. Until large-scale hostilities broke out, that is, the events in

2 Ahmici, we were based in the police station building. And after that, we

3 were moved to the Vitez Hotel.

4 Q. Very well. Thank you. Let us now go back for a moment to this

5 unfortunate event that you experienced and the things you told the

6 Prosecutor about in answer to his question. As you said, on the 7th of

7 August you were returning from duty and you took a wrong turning at a

8 crossroads towards Vitez. When you were stopped by the BH army in

9 territory under their control, you were wearing a uniform of the HVO and

10 you were armed with a rifle and a pistol; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Just then for them you were an enemy soldier whom they had

13 captured; is that right?

14 A. It appears to be so, yes.

15 Q. As you stated, you were taken to the former JNA barracks in

16 Travnik; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The next day -- or rather, the day after, your first

19 interrogation was linked to military issues only. The investigator

20 wanted to learn as much as possible about the strength and position of an

21 army that was its enemy; at the time, that is the HVO. Is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In Travnik, your relative, Dijana Drazetic [phoen] resided.

24 A. She is not a relative of mine. She is a magistrate judge in the

25 court in Travnik when I was a judge in Vitez.

1 Q. Actually, she learnt from you that you were in detention and she

2 asked a pre-war acquaintance of yours and her colleague, Beker Ferizovic,

3 the judge, to come and visit you; is that right?

4 A. I don't know how she learnt -- or rather, how Mr. Beker Ferizovic

5 learnt about it. Anyway, he did come, but he came after, certainly, more

6 than 30 days of my detention had gone by, that is, from the moment I

7 entered the barracks.

8 Q. With Mr. Beker Ferizovic, you maintained good friendly relations

9 to the present day; isn't that so?

10 A. Yes, that's right. I am still a good friend of Mr. Beker

11 Ferizovic. We are still good friends, and we hear one another quite

12 frequently.

13 Q. He visited you on a number of occasions, brought you food and

14 clothing; is that right?

15 A. No, it is not. A part of your question is incorrect. He didn't

16 bring food. He brought a pair of trousers and socks once or twice.

17 Q. Your lady acquaintance was also able to visit you.

18 A. Yes. She came once, and we had a chat, and she didn't come

19 again.

20 Q. Mr. Josipovic, you said that you spent that first night in this

21 room close to the entrance to the barracks and that there was nothing in

22 the room except bare concrete. However, already the next day or the day

23 after you were brought a soldier's cot.

24 A. No, not a soldier's bed. Not even after seven or eight days.

25 Some wooden planks were placed on the concrete floor and a blanket on

1 that -- those planks. And then I was given another blanket to cover

2 myself with.

3 Q. So in that room you spent -- on the concrete floor, you only

4 spent that one night, the night of your arrest.

5 A. No. I spent 50-odd days in that room, as I said in my statement,

6 which means I was in that room for some 50-odd days.

7 Q. Maybe my question wasn't quite clear.

8 A. Please repeat it.

9 Q. What I meant to say was that it was only for that one night that

10 you lay on the concrete. After that, you were brought those wooden

11 planks and some days later you were given a soldier's bed.

12 A. Yes, a few days afterwards I was brought a bed. That's right.

13 Q. In answer to a question from the President of the Trial Chamber,

14 you explained that criminal proceedings were conducted against you; is

15 that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The charge was armed rebellion. You told us that just now,

18 didn't you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. As a lawyer, you can confirm here in court that this charge is

21 envisaged and described as a serious criminal offence in our Criminal

22 Code.

23 A. Yes, it is a serious criminal offence, according to the Criminal

24 Code of the former Yugoslavia.

25 Q. According to our criminal procedure law, which was taken over

1 from the former Yugoslavia, detention was compulsory; isn't that so?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. According to our law, detention in the course of investigation

4 could last up to six months; is that correct?

5 A. Probably it's correct. I was not sufficiently familiar with all

6 the provisions of that law, because I was a magistrate for minor

7 offences. I was not a judge of a municipal court or anything. So I was

8 not all that familiar with all the provisions of that law or even that

9 particular definition of that crime.

10 Q. To the question put to you by the Prosecution, you replied that

11 you spent some time in a cell together with some members of the BH army;

12 is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I do apologise. And the members of the armed forces were

15 imprisoned because they were under investigation due to accusations of

16 stealing, looting, or murder; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. One of them was in fact a member of the armed forces who was

19 accused of having killed two Croats in Bugojno; is that correct?

20 A. It is.

21 Q. As a legal expert amongst people who are under investigation, you

22 sometimes gave them possible advice about the procedure; is that correct?

23 A. It is.

24 Q. After that investigation and several interrogations you were

25 subjected to were completed, you were brought before the court; is that

1 correct?

2 A. It is.

3 Q. And you were appointed a defence lawyer.

4 A. I can't remember a defence lawyer. I can't remember that.

5 Q. Since the investigation and your interrogation provided no basis

6 for a trial, according to the legal proceedings the trial was suspended;

7 is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thereupon, as a prisoner of war, you were moved to the KP Dom, to

10 Zenica by the end of December.

11 A. On the 24th of December, I was moved to KP Dom Zenica.

12 Q. And you were exchanged on the 22nd of March, 1994; is that

13 correct?

14 A. It is.

15 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Josipovic, I have no further questions.

16 A. Thank you too.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 I am turning to the other Defence team now.

19 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. On behalf of Mr. Kubura, we

20 do not have any questions for this witness. Our client is not charged

21 with any of the incidents that the witness has testified about, Your

22 Honours. I'm grateful.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just to specify one point.

24 Questioned by the Court:

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have just said - I can see

1 on the transcript in English - that you were transferred to KP Dom Zenica

2 on the 24th of December and you were exchanged on the 22nd of March,

3 1994. Apparently that's the date when you left KP Dom Zenica. As you're

4 a legal expert, I'm going to put a legal question to you: The detention

5 between the 22nd of December,1993 until the 22nd of March, 1994 was for

6 what legal reason, according to you? Because according to what you have

7 said in reply to the questions put to you by the Defence, the charges

8 against you were dropped before the 24th of December.

9 So according to you, between the 24th of December until the --

10 and the 22nd of March, you were detained for what reason? Do you have an

11 explanation for that or don't you?

12 A. Your Honour, could you just reformulate your question, be a bit

13 more specific.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right, then. You have told

15 us that you were under an investigation and you were brought before the

16 court and the charges were dropped. One can deduce that once the charges

17 are dropped, at that stage your detention should have been over. You

18 told us that between the 24th of December -- that on the 24th of December

19 you were transferred to Zenica prison. Did it indicate the end of your

20 detention in connection to the charges brought against you? And if so,

21 between December and March what was your situation? Can you clarify

22 that.

23 A. They decided to start criminal proceedings against me because

24 they were convinced that I was a higher-ranking official than I was,

25 since I was a university graduate, and before the war I was a magistrate.

1 And they thought I would have a great deal of information that could --

2 that I could tell them. This was the key reason why they started these

3 proceedings against me.

4 But in the course of these proceedings, they ascertained that,

5 well, I wasn't such a person and that up until the point when I was

6 arrested I committed no crime at all. And so charges could not be

7 brought against me and I could not be imprisoned. And that was perhaps

8 the key moment when they decided to take me out of that prison in Travnik

9 and move me to Zenica, because according to them it was a safer place or

10 a place where the other prisoners were and the place from which they

11 organised their exchanges of prisoners.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

13 I'm turning to the Prosecution. Do you have any additional

14 questions to put to the witness?

15 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, we have a couple of questions arising

16 from the cross-examination, if I might put those to the witness.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go on.

18 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:

19 Q. Witness, does the -- either the Bosnian Criminal Code or the SFRY

20 Criminal Code authorise physical mistreatment or beating during periods

21 of pre-trial detention?

22 A. On no account. No.

23 Q. Thank you, Witness.

24 MR. MUNDIS: No further questions.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What were you going to say?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would just like to

2 clarify one more point. On the occasion of my arrival to the district

3 prison of Zenica, when I first arrived there, when I was being admitted

4 there and handed over by the policeman who accompanied me, well, on that

5 occasion I was physically abused as well. So on the back of my body --

6 well, I was hit in the back, behind my right ear, so that I still suffer

7 the consequences of that.

8 This is just one more clarification. And that was the only time

9 I was hit at the district prison in Zenica. That's all.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right, then. Considering

11 the fact that the witness is sharing this fact with us of his own free

12 will, would you like to ask any questions of him on this point?

13 Further cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Is it correct, Mr. Josipovic, that the day after

15 at KP Dom you were received by one of the heads there?

16 A. Yes. Yes. This was Mr. Alagic, who was the commander of the

17 prison.

18 Q. Is it correct that you realised immediately that the person who

19 hit you as you arrived was reported and sanctioned?

20 A. No. The one who brought me there said -- no. The guy who hit me

21 was tall, and he had a beard, and he was told, "This is not the way you

22 treat prisoners," and so the other guy was really correct and that's what

23 he said. But as to whether any proceedings were started against this, I

24 don't know.

25 Q. But he was reported to the commander who listened to --

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1 A. No, no, he wasn't reported. It was just that the policeman who

2 accompanied me there said to him that this was not the way to deal with

3 prisoners. And it was in the evening. It was just a person who was on

4 duty, and then some bearded guy came along and he hit me from behind.

5 But as to whether he was reported to his superior, I don't know.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right, then.

7 The Prosecution has no further questions. So we thank you for

8 having come to The Hague to give us your testimony. You have answered to

9 all the questions put to you by the Prosecution and the Defence and the

10 Judges, so we thank you very much for this witness account. We wish you

11 a pleasant return to your home.

12 And I'm going to ask Madam Usher to take you out of the

13 courtroom.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you to you too.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right, then. According to

17 our schedule, this is all, because all the witnesses planned for this

18 week have given their witness accounts. As you know, there will be no

19 session tomorrow due to maintenance reasons, and so we'll start tomorrow

20 at 2.15 [as interpreted].

21 Let me just inform the Prosecution and the Defence that we have

22 made a decision yesterday with reference to witnesses, the 92 bis, which

23 should have been at 15.50 or so, the decision should have been recorded

24 at that time.

25 As I have mentioned, we still have the request with regard to the

1 admission of these facts. The decision will be made as soon as we have

2 all the relevant elements in order to be able to deliberate.

3 Apart from that, we are looking forward to receiving a written

4 request with regard to the points you have mentioned earlier on with

5 regard to ambiguities or gaps in the regulation which might work against

6 you in the course of these proceedings. So we expect you to make these

7 requests in writing and then we'll reply.

8 Since this is all, the session is over and we can all come back

9 here at quarter past 2.00 on Monday.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.44 a.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of

12 February, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.

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