Page 2981
1 Wednesday, 18 February 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call
6 the case number, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Could we have the appearances for the Prosecution.
11 MR. WITHOPF: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
12 Mr. President. Good morning, Counsel. For the Prosecution, Mr. Ekkehard
13 Withopf and case manager, Kimberly Fleming.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On
15 behalf of General Enver Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic, co-counsel;
16 Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Muriel Cauvin, our legal assistant.
17 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On
18 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Mr.
19 Mulalic, our legal assistant.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'd like to greet
21 everyone present, Mr. Withopf, the accused, Defence for the accused,
22 everyone else present in the courtroom: The registrar, whose work is
23 exceptional; and the usher, who assists the Chamber with the witnesses;
24 and naturally, I don't want to forget the interpreters.
25 We'll continue with our hearing of the witness. I don't know
Page 2982
1 whether at this stage Mr. Withopf wants us to go into private session
2 before we call the witness into the courtroom. We're in open session.
3 Would it be necessary to go into private session?
4 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, it appears as if the
5 vast majority or the answers to the vast majority to the Prosecution's
6 questions may have the effect that the identity of the witness could be
7 revealed. Therefore, I would suggest to go in private session.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 Mr. Registrar, let's go into private session.
10 [Private session]
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Page 2983
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Page 3005
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11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
14 With regard to the issue concerning the scope of the indictment
15 and the element of cruel treatment, the Prosecution claims that digging
16 trenches at a front line constitutes cruel treatment. And according to
17 the Prosecution, explicit reference is made to cruel treatment in the
18 indictment.
19 The Defence made an oral objection to this argument and referred
20 to the indictment, which according to the Defence does not contain a
21 reference to this legal element.
22 The Trial Chamber, after having deliberated during the break,
23 believes that this is a substantial issue and that the Defence should
24 address it by submitting a written motion, and naturally the Prosecution
25 will respond to the motion. Having done so, the Trial Chamber will
Page 3006
1 render its decision with regard to the scope of the indictment with
2 regard to cruel treatment, that is to say with regard to the issue as to
3 whether digging trenches at the front line is referred to explicitly in
4 the indictment and that the accused were aware of this element. It would
5 be good if this could be -- this motion could be submitted to us very
6 rapidly so that the decision can be rendered as soon as possible.
7 So pending our written decision, the Prosecution, if it so
8 desires, may ask questions that concern digging trenches, but naturally
9 if the decision contradicts the position adopted by the Prosecution, all
10 the responses provided by the witness or by future witnesses will
11 naturally -- won't be considered as answers to the questions put to the
12 witness.
13 I can see that Mr. Bourgon wanted to say something. Was there
14 anything you would like to add?
15 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The
16 Defence would like to thank the Trial Chamber for this decision with
17 regard to the objection raised with regard to the witness's testimony
18 about people digging trenches.
19 According to the Trial Chamber's decision, the Defence will
20 submit its written arguments no later than Monday. Nevertheless, Mr.
21 President, I would like to suggest something: Since the Defence and the
22 Prosecution are more or less in the same position with regard to this
23 dilemma, it's the Prosecution that has to provide proof and we object to
24 it. We suggest that the procedure should be such that both parties could
25 present its arguments by Monday and then the Trial Chamber will be able
Page 3007
1 to take a decision very rapidly and this would avoid any waste of time.
2 Thank you, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. This suggestion put
4 forward by the Defence would enable us to proceed more rapidly and deal
5 with the problem expeditiously. So by Monday we could receive a motion
6 from the Defence but at the same time the Prosecution could immediately
7 submit a motion to us, and this would allow the Trial Chamber to rule.
8 Because the exchanges, the prior exchanges would have made the positions
9 of both parties clear in advance. And confronting your positions in such
10 a manner would facilitate the debate.
11 The written submission would be useful, because it would clearly
12 define the legal debate and it would refer to the jurisprudence or the
13 Rules followed by this Tribunal with regard to this matter; that is to
14 say, with regard to the scope of the indictment, the scope of the
15 pre-trial brief. And thus, having clarified the issue by both -- having
16 both parties presenting their arguments, we'll be able to rule very
17 quickly. Given the importance of this matter, it would be good if both
18 parties could file written motions, since as I have already said, these
19 are essential issues.
20 Mr. Withopf, I believe that you agree with this idea of filing a
21 motion with us as soon as possible.
22 MR. WITHOPF: I do agree; the proposal put forward by my learned
23 colleague makes sense. And I share the views of the Defence counsel and
24 the Trial Chamber. We will file a filing by next Monday.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
Page 3008
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13 English transcripts.
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Page 3009
1 We're in open session. Would you like to continue in open
2 session or would you like to go into private session, given the questions
3 that you will be asking the witness? But as you know what questions you
4 will be asking, we can't guess what they are - we might be able to guess
5 what the questions are - do you want to remain in open session or go into
6 private session?
7 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, again I would like to
8 go back into private session, since the answers have the potential to
9 identify the witness.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So we will go into
11 private session.
12 [Private session]
13 (redacted)
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Page 3010
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Page 3018
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, Your Honours, we are in private session
3 [sic].
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Is it true, Mr. ZB, that Bugojno is in the Vrbas valley? Is that
6 correct?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. My colleagues have
9 tried to draw my attention to something which is not really of any
10 importance.
11 Q. At some 18 kilometres from Bugojno there is Gornji Vakuf, that
12 you have mentioned in your testimony; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. Down the stream some 12 kilometres from Bugojno there is a place
15 called Donji Vakuf; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. Is it correct, Mr. ZB, that as early as 1992 the road via Donji
18 Vakuf towards Travnik and via Komar was occupied by the Serbian forces
19 and that it was not possible to use that road to get to Travnik? Is that
20 correct?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. Is it also correct that at the beginning of 1992 in March and
23 April of that year the Serbian forces attacked Kupres, which is not far
24 from the town of Bugojno?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
Page 3019
1 Q. Kupres was very soon after that occupied by the Serbian forces;
2 is that correct?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. Bugojno from then on was to a large extent isolated from the
5 centres of the republic, Zenica, Sarajevo, and others; is that correct?
6 A. No, it's not correct.
7 Q. As a matter of fact, one could no longer use the main roads to
8 reach those centres. One had to use macadam roads via Rostovo and
9 Travnik; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. Because of the overall situation, there was mobilisation in
12 Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that correct?
13 A. I believe so.
14 Q. As you were already -- you have already told us, you joined the
15 HVO; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. At that time, in 1992 and beginning of 1993, and especially in
18 1992, there was a number of Muslims in the HVO; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, it is. In my unit, there were at least 30 per cent Muslims.
20 Q. And that was absolutely normal, because the HVO was much better
21 organised and much better equipped than the Territorial Defence and the
22 army which were being created at a later stage; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, it is correct.
24 Q. Your brigade was called the Eugen Kvaternik Brigade; is that
25 correct?
Page 3020
1 A. Yes, it is correct.
2 Q. It had three battalions and several independent units and groups
3 and platoons; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, it is correct.
5 Q. Your brigade had between 12 and 13 hundred troops; is that
6 correct?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. In February 1993, the Home Guard Units were also established.
9 These battalions were established, as a matter of fact. Is that correct?
10 A. I don't understand your question.
11 Q. In addition to the Eugen Kvaternik Brigade, in February 1993 the
12 Home Guard Units of the HVO Bugojno were also established; is that
13 correct?
14 A. There were Home Guard Units, but I don't know when they were
15 established.
16 Q. Is it true that in mid-1992 a number of Muslims arrived in
17 Bugojno from Donji Vakuf, Jajce, Prozor, and other places from which they
18 had been expelled?
19 A. That's true.
20 Q. Is it also true that these refugees who came in large numbers
21 came without any belongings and that this caused problems with
22 accommodation and food supplies in Bugojno? Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. Is it also true that in 1992 and especially 1993 a large number
25 of the citizens of Bugojno, both Muslims and Croats, started leaving the
Page 3021
1 town because of the fear of war and the fact that Bugojno was intensely
2 shelled from the Serbian positions? Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, it is correct.
4 Q. The majority of the refugees that had arrived in town were
5 Muslims, Bosniaks, and this changed the demographic structure of the town
6 in the light of the fact that the majority of the population of Bugojno
7 started leaving the town.
8 A. That's true.
9 Q. In the summer of 1993, on the eve of the conflicts that you spoke
10 about, some 7.000 local Croats still remained in the town; is that
11 correct?
12 A. I believe that their numbers were somewhat greater than 7.000.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move into private
14 session, Your Honour, because I'm going to ask some questions about the
15 position of the witness himself.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Mr. Registrar, can we please go into private session.
18 [Private session]
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8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We're in open
11 session.
12 Do we have another witness for today? I'm turning to the
13 Prosecution.
14 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, yes, we have a further
15 witness for today. I would suggest to make a short break now to enable
16 my colleagues to come down. And I wish to already announce now that the
17 Prosecution will make an application for protective measures.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Microphone not activated]
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. President, please.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. It's ten to 12.00. We'll
21 have a break until twenty past 12.00. We will resume at 12.20 and
22 continue until 1.45. So the hearing is adjourned until 12.20.
23 --- Recess taken at 11.48 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll now resume the
Page 3034
1 proceedings, and the Trial Chamber would like to greet the newly arrived
2 representatives of the Prosecution.
3 It seems that a request for protective measures has been made.
4 Mr. Registrar, could we move into private session.
5 [Private session]
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6 [Closed session]
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14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of
16 February, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.
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