Page 13928
1 Tuesday, 11 January 2005
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please
6 call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This is
8 IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor against Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Prosecution, appearances, please.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your
12 Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the
13 Prosecution, Stefan Waespi, Daryl Mundis, and our case manager today,
14 Ms. Janet Stewart. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 The Defence teams, appearances, please.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. On
18 behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic, counsel, Stephane
19 Bourgon, co-counsel, and Alex Demirdjian, legal assistant. Thank you.
20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
21 On behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin
22 Mulalic, legal assistant.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On Tuesday, the 11th of January,
24 2005, I would like to bid welcome to everybody in the courtroom, to the
25 accused, to the Defence teams, and to the Prosecution. Today we will
Page 13929
1 proceed with the testimony of the witness that we heard yesterday. But
2 before that there are a few issues to deal with. First of all, I'm going
3 to ask the registrar to go into private session, please.
4 [Private session]
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 13930
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session,
9 Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And now in open session we have
11 to discuss the issue of the three documents which seem to have been
12 forgotten yesterday when the list of documents was read out. The first
13 document is dated 12th January, 1993, which originates from the 3rd Corps,
14 and which was sent to the 17th Mountain Brigade and the 303rd Brigade.
15 The second document is dated 12 January, again sent by the 3rd Corps to
16 the 314th Motorised Brigade and the 7th Muslim Brigade -- 7th Muslim
17 Mountain Brigade, and a document dated 13th of January, 1993, which
18 originates from the 3rd Corps and which is marked by "urgent" and sent to
19 all the brigades and municipal defence staffs. We have to give
20 identification numbers to these documents.
21 Does the Prosecution have any objections to these documents being
22 admitted into evidence? Mr. Mundis, you have the floor.
23 MR. MUNDIS: No objection, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well then.
25 Mr. Registrar, I'm going to give you the documents and can I
Page 13931
1 please have the numbers for them.
2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, these documents
3 will be admitted into evidence as follows: The first one, dated 12th
4 January, 1993, as the ERN is 01822083, and it will be given a number, 1982
5 and the English translation will be DH1982/E. The second document bearing
6 the date 12 January, 1993, and which does not have an ERN number but it
7 does have an internal number, 102/33119 will be admitted into evidence as
8 DH1283 and the English translation will be marked by E. And the last
9 document is 01822089. This is the ERN number and it will be admitted into
10 evidence as DH1984, and its translation will be 1984/E. And this
11 concludes the list of exhibits.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar. We
13 had to deal with yet another problem. Yesterday I have already indicated
14 that we are considering whether it would be useful to have a sitting on
15 Wednesday, but finally we have decided that this sitting will be held
16 tomorrow afternoon but it will not start at quarter past 2.00 but at 3.00.
17 If this might be necessary and if we have to work longer, we will continue
18 after 7.00 to make up for the lost time. So this would be it and now we
19 would wish to see the witness being brought in into the courtroom. The
20 Prosecution has sent us the list of documents that they might be showing
21 the witness during their cross-examination.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. First of
24 all, let me check that you hear me. As I told you yesterday, today we are
25 going to continue with your testimony. Today you are going to have to
Page 13932
1 answer to the questions put to you by the Prosecution. After that, the
2 Defence lawyers will re-examine you, and if necessary the Judges will also
3 have questions for you.
4 I'm going to give the floor to Mr. Mundis.
5 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 WITNESS: AHMED KULENOVIC [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis: [Continued]
9 Q. Good afternoon, witness. Yesterday when we adjourned for the
10 evening we were discussing the camp that you visited in early August 1993
11 with General Alagic, and I have a few questions about the persons you saw
12 and briefly met with at this camp near Mehurici. Sir, to the best of your
13 recollection, prior to that day had you ever seen any of those people that
14 you met with before at any other location?
15 A. Can you hear me? These people that I met in the camp I had never
16 seen before, either in Travnik or in any -- on any of the defence lines
17 that I had inspected.
18 Q. At any time after that day when you met these people in Mehurici,
19 did you ever see any of those foreigners or other people that you met at
20 this camp on any other occasion at any other location?
21 A. After that first meeting at the Mehurici camp, I saw these people
22 on several occasions, but I could not place them. In other words, I
23 couldn't say whether they belonged to a unit or not. I just saw them in
24 the zone of combat responsibilities, given the tasks that I received from
25 my superior, General Hadzihasanovic. At the end of the day, I didn't know
Page 13933
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 13934
1 where they were. I knew that they were there, but I was not concerned
2 with what they were doing and what units they were members of. In other
3 words, I did see them in the area. I didn't see them that often, maybe
4 one or two times, just passing by while I was tending to my tasks. So I
5 was in no way directly connected to them.
6 Q. Sir, if you can remember, can you tell us where it was that you
7 saw these people and what it was that you saw these people doing on this
8 occasion or occasions after the meeting in Mehurici.
9 A. I mostly saw them in Mehurici or in its vicinity. What they did,
10 I don't know. Either I was passing by or they were passing by. I did not
11 have any direct contacts with them. I didn't know what they were doing,
12 what their task was, whether they had been given any task and who from. I
13 was controlling the line that went from Mehurici towards Meokrnje and the
14 Vlasic plateau. And I was passing by and inspecting that line, I would
15 come across them.
16 Q. Now, I understand what you say, sir, when you say you didn't know
17 what they were doing or what their task was. But I guess my question is
18 more along the lines of: What did you observe them doing? Were they
19 simply standing on a street corner? Were they involved in what appeared
20 to be military training? What exactly did you see these people doing?
21 A. They would be standing in the street or they would be passing in
22 vehicles in one direction or another. If they had weapons, those would be
23 rifles and they would be on their shoulders, which means that they were
24 not ready for combat. There were individuals moving about, tending to
25 their business. They didn't do anything specific when I saw them. I
Page 13935
1 could not draw any conclusion as to what they were doing at that
2 particular moment. I just saw them as I was passing by.
3 Q. Sir, you said you may have seen them in vehicles. Can you tell us
4 what kind of vehicles you remember seeing these persons in.
5 A. Those were either small-terrain vehicles, either Toyota or Pajero,
6 small vehicles holding a driver, a co-driver, and two passengers in the
7 back. And there were some parts where you could load some equipment on.
8 So they were either Toyotas or Pajeros, those small, all-terrain vehicles.
9 Q. What type of clothing did you see these people wearing, these
10 foreigners?
11 A. I believe that I already said that yesterday, but let me repeat.
12 They wore camouflage uniforms, which was not complete and it did not look
13 like the uniform that the BiH army troops wore. Those were incomplete
14 camouflage uniforms, but they had shorts like trousers, they had wind
15 jackets or jackets, and underneath the jacket or top part of the uniform,
16 they wore some civilian clothes. And as I said yesterday, they also wore
17 head scarfs or bandanas around their necks and their head pieces were not
18 the types of hats that we were supposed to wear, that was part of the
19 camouflage uniform. And they did not have any insignia, either on their
20 shoulder or on the cap, while I have to tell you that we insisted in the
21 BH army that all our troops wore insignia.
22 Q. When did troops within the BH army begin wearing insignia on their
23 uniforms?
24 A. The BiH army troops start wearing insignia on their sleeves and on
25 their caps when the Territorial Defence was formed in May 1992. Then we
Page 13936
1 wore the insignia of the BiH TO. And the official insignia were
2 introduced at the beginning of 1993 when the regular army was established.
3 In more specific terms, in Travnik, when the brigades were established, we
4 received orders according to which we provided our troops with the
5 insignia to be worn on the arms and on the caps. So from the end of 1992
6 and especially after the beginning of 1993, all the troops bore the
7 characteristic insignia on their uniforms.
8 Q. Sir, let me ask you a couple of last questions about the meeting
9 in the vicinity of Mehurici at the beginning of August, 1993. On the
10 occasion that you met with these -- this small group of these foreign
11 fighters, these Mujahedin, did any of those individuals introduce
12 themselves to you by name, and, if so, do you remember the names of any of
13 these individuals that you met with?
14 A. No. They did not introduce to us -- introduce themselves to us by
15 names, but they greeted us with the characteristic Muslim greeting, Salam
16 Alaikam. We also shook hands, although it was not their custom to shake
17 hands. They never told us their names, no.
18 Q. At any point --
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, line -- on page 8,
20 line 7 where it says that they wore the characteristic insignia it says
21 from the end of 1992 and especially after the beginning of 1993, all the
22 troops bore the characteristic. However, the witness said, "if we were
23 able to obtain them," and that was then followed by the characteristic
24 insignia on their uniforms. So part of the sentence that the witness
25 uttered was not translated.
Page 13937
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One part of the answer was not
2 translated, and what the witness said has to be added to the answer.
3 You may proceed.
4 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 MR. MUNDIS:
7 Q. Sir, on any occasion of this meeting at the beginning of August,
8 1993, did you personally become aware of the names of any of these foreign
9 Mujahedin?
10 A. I did learn some of the names, but not through personal contact,
11 rather I learned them from what other people said because I moved about
12 among the soldiers. So I heard about a certain Musa or Vahid or something
13 like that, Wahiudin, but I don't think I met them personally or had
14 personal contact with them. However, through what people were saying on
15 the lines, I learned that there were these certain people there.
16 Q. And, sir, can you tell us what you learned about these people from
17 the soldiers on the lines. Can you recall what anyone told you about
18 Mr. Wahiudin?
19 A. I can't be very specific, but in general when I was moving among
20 the soldiers at the lines they would say that they had seen or heard that
21 Wahiudin was fighting, organising, preparing, recruiting. They didn't say
22 anything specific, he did or that specific things. But rather, it was the
23 general sort of things that were said on the lines. The soldiers
24 themselves avoided making any specific references, any direct references.
25 Q. Sir, did you know who Mr. Wahiudin was? Did there come a time
Page 13938
1 when you learned anything about this person?
2 A. I have to say again that I heard in general that he was in the
3 camp. I didn't know what his role or position was. I knew that he was
4 one of the commanders or leaders. He was in some sort of hierarchy within
5 that organisation, but I didn't know specifically what his position was,
6 whether he had any rank, whether he had any military training or civilian
7 education, I didn't know any of that. But I did know he was in there and
8 that he did have some sort of post or duty.
9 Q. And, sir, when you make reference to the camp or when you say "he
10 was in there," are you referring to the Mujahedin camp near Mehurici?
11 A. Yes, that's what I was referring to, if we can call that a camp.
12 I think we know what we are referring to. There was an organisation there
13 with -- encompassing everything including accommodation and hygienic
14 arrangements and so on. So it was really the place where they stayed.
15 Q. Sir, are you aware of General Alagic meeting with any of these
16 Mujahedin on any occasions after this meeting you've told us about in
17 early August 1993 near Mehurici?
18 A. I can't be specific because, let me repeat, the duties I was
19 carrying out were not strictly -- did not strictly require that I escort
20 General Alagic. The time I went with him as an operations man, he took me
21 along so that I could see what the situation was together with him. But I
22 had other tasks and duties. You have to understand that at that time we
23 had two kinds of struggle going on, one against the Chetniks and the other
24 kind of struggle which was not military, not with weapons, was concerned
25 with logistics, the rear, and organising life and work in the depth of the
Page 13939
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 13940
1 terrain. So I was absent from General Alagic's whereabouts very often,
2 carrying out these other tasks. So I cannot be sure whether they met
3 again or not.
4 Q. And just so we're clear, sir, other than this meeting in the
5 beginning of August 1993 near Mehurici, you personally never met with them
6 or attended a meeting with them at any other point in time or at any other
7 place?
8 A. That was the only time I had direct personal contact and some kind
9 of conversation with them. Anything else, if it took place at all, was --
10 took place within another context.
11 Q. Now, sir, you told us yesterday that these Mujahedin were never
12 under the command, your command, or under the command of any units of the
13 Bosanska Krajina Operational Group. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes. They were not under the direct command of the operative
15 group of the Bosanska Krajina.
16 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with the assistance of the usher I
17 would ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 615.
18 Q. Sir, I'd ask you if you've seen this document, P615, that's being
19 shown to you. Have you ever seen that document before?
20 A. I have never seen this document before, no.
21 Q. Have you had a chance to read the document?
22 A. This is the first time I've read it.
23 Q. Let me ask you then -- again with the assistance of the usher, if
24 the witness can be shown Prosecution Exhibit P673.
25 Sir, let me ask you first, have you ever seen this document
Page 13941
1 before?
2 A. This is a report by the commander of a subordinate unit, and I
3 think I saw this document in the course of the regular reporting. We
4 received many such reports from subordinate units describing the situation
5 for a certain period or on a certain day, covering a longer or shorter
6 period of time. So there were large numbers of such reports. It says
7 here at 2300 hours the Mujahedin and so on and so forth, I think that this
8 is an important element, there is some sort of slaughter mentioned here,
9 so I think I would remember this. I did have most of these documents
10 before me, so most probably I had this one, too, probably.
11 Q. Let me ask you, sir, from the face of the document, can you tell
12 me who this document was addressed to?
13 A. This document was sent to the operations centre of the Operative
14 Group Bosanska Krajina, to the commander personally, so that the commander
15 would be informed of the situation. It was addressed to the command of
16 which I was a part.
17 Q. And on the 19th of August, 1993, what position within the
18 Operation Group Bosanska Krajina did you hold?
19 A. Assistant commander for operative and training matters.
20 Q. Now, can you explain to us, because you've alluded to this, the
21 fact that the document makes actually two references to the Mujahedin.
22 There's the first one that you indicated, which is on page 2 of the
23 English translation, but it makes reference to 2300, events in Guca Gora.
24 And then if you look down three paragraphs after that first reference,
25 there's another reference to the Mujahedin. Do you see that second
Page 13942
1 reference, sir?
2 A. As far as I can see, the word "Mujahedin" is mentioned in only one
3 place on this document, this is line 7 or 8, where it says: "The
4 Mujahedins expelled three Croats from their houses in Guca Gora at 2300
5 hours, threatening them with slaughtering."
6 So this is the only place where the word "Mujahedin" is stated or
7 written down, if we're referring to the same document.
8 Q. Well, sir, let me draw your attention to the bottom of the
9 document above where there is a signature block. If you look at the far
10 right-hand margin of the document on the third line from the bottom, the
11 last word would seem to be Mujahedin. The copy is not maybe the best.
12 Can you see what that paragraph says?
13 A. "The rampage of the Mujahedins must be immediately stopped,
14 particularly of the domestic ones, since if this is not done there is a
15 threat that it might escalate and become an armed clash."
16 Yes.
17 Q. Now, sir, let me ask you this as a professionally trained and
18 career military officer: If the Mujahedin were not part of a subordinate
19 unit of the Operation Group Bosanska Krajina, why would there be these
20 types of references to the Mujahedin in an official report of a
21 subordinate unit?
22 A. On the basis of this written text, this report by the commander of
23 a subordinate unit, every soldier and everyone who was not a soldier might
24 conclude that they were not part of that unit because he never says in
25 this text in the first platoon of the 1st Company, and so on and so forth,
Page 13943
1 a Mujahedin unit did this or that. Rather, this can be interpreted to
2 mean that there was a unit called the Mujahedin who were doing this and
3 that in the area, and in my view he's asking for assistance from the
4 operations group to solve this. Because he says that the rampage must be
5 immediately stopped. So he's asking us for some sort of assistance to
6 resolve this situation.
7 Q. Why would that lower-level commander think that the operational
8 group commander could solve this problem if the Mujahedin were not part of
9 the operational group?
10 A. In my view, it's very simple. A unit can be or not be in an area
11 and it can be either subordinate or attached to a certain unit, or it can
12 be engaged pursuant to orders of a higher command. And they might be
13 carrying out tasks for this higher command, with the knowledge of the
14 local commander, of course. So it doesn't follow that the commander of
15 the area in which the unit is knows everything that the unit is doing. I
16 am -- I'd like to say again that they were not under the direct command of
17 the Bosanska Krajina Operations Group. I know that General Alagic used to
18 say that they should be placed under the command of the OG, that they
19 should be included in the group.
20 Q. Let me ask now, sir, with again the assistance of the usher if the
21 witness can be shown Prosecution Exhibit P665. Sir, let me ask you as a
22 starting point, have you ever seen this document, P665, prior to today?
23 A. I have never seen this document before, but when we formed this
24 joint command there were many similar documents that came to us for our
25 information. And whether I was physically present there in this joint
Page 13944
1 command or not, I don't know. But this is the first time that I've seen
2 this. I know that there were meetings and that I went out on the ground,
3 but I'm certain that I have never seen this document before.
4 Q. I show you this because in paragraph 3 there's reference to
5 foreigners in the area of the 306th Brigade, and I'm wondering if you have
6 any knowledge or information about the presence of foreigners in the area
7 of the 306th Brigade.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation]
9 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, I
10 think the witness said right away that he never saw this document before.
11 We have had occasion to here officers of the 306th Brigade here, and from
12 what the Defence of General Hadzihasanovic has told us we can see that
13 even the commander of the 306th Brigade will testify here. Our objection
14 is that this witness cannot interpret this document.
15 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I'm not asking the witness to
16 interpret the document. I'm asking the witness if he's aware of any
17 instances in which the commanders of the 306th Brigade lodged complaints
18 up the chain of command concerning the presence of foreigners in the area
19 of responsibility of the 306th Brigade.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you hear the question? The
21 Prosecution would like to know whether you heard from the soldiers that
22 you visited on the front lines any objections, any questioning with regard
23 to the presence of foreigners.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here we can speak of -- with
25 reference to your question, Your Honour, I know that in August of 1993 I
Page 13945
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 13946
1 heard a lot of complaints from the soldiers in this unit. But this was
2 three or four months after what is mentioned in this document. As I said,
3 this is the first time I've seen this document. Maybe at that point in
4 time I was not in the headquarters of the operations group, but I know
5 that there were various reports. What I can say is that whenever we had
6 contacts and conversations with members of the HVO, they always referred
7 to soldiers who were members of the BH army as Mujahedin. They called the
8 TO staff in Travnik the Mujahedin staff, even though our personnel was of
9 mixed ethnic origin. There were Croats and Serbs and there was even a Jew
10 as well as Muslims in it.
11 MR. MUNDIS:
12 Q. Let me turn for a moment, sir, to a slightly different topic. Can
13 you give us the dates or the approximate dates that you served as the
14 operations officer for the Operation Group Bosanska Krajina.
15 A. I think I partly answered your question yesterday. According to
16 the orders and the documents, this was in May. However, I was still the
17 commander of the municipal staff when I was appointed to the joint command
18 so that the time mentioned in the documents does not correspond to what I
19 was actually doing at the time, from April until the time I was appointed
20 to another duty, and that was in March 1994.
21 Q. So again, for the record, when you say "April or May," that would
22 be 1993. The period from April or May 1993 through March 1994, you were
23 the operations officer for the Operation Group Bosanska Krajina, the
24 assistant commander for operations and training, I believe?
25 A. Yes, for operations and training, yes.
Page 13947
1 Q. Now, sir, during the time period you were the assistant commander
2 for operations and training within the OG Bosanska Krajina, can you tell
3 us which units were part of the Operation Group Bosanska Krajina.
4 A. As far as I know, the Bosanska Krajina Operations Group was formed
5 as a temporary command in order to relieve the pressure on the
6 communications in the direct command of the 3rd Corps, although there was
7 some changes there. It was the 312th; the 306th; the 17th Krajina
8 Brigade; the 27th Motorised Brigade, which was in the process of being
9 formed; and then the 37th Mountain Brigade, after it was formed, entered
10 into this group; then 308th OG West was then moved to the Bosanska Krajina
11 OG; and the 325th Brigade in the Vitez area. Those were the brigades. I
12 don't know if I've listed them all, but I think that's it. I'm now trying
13 to remember whether I missed anything. That's it, I think.
14 Q. And, sir, can you tell us as a rough approximation of the
15 geographic area that the Operations Group Bosanska Krajina was responsible
16 for.
17 A. Bosanska Krajina was responsible for the territories of the
18 municipalities of Novi Travnik, Travnik, and Vitez, part of the territory
19 on the Vlasic plateau, whether it belonged to the Kotor Varos municipality
20 or not, I'm not sure, Travnik -- primarily Travnik, a part of the
21 territory of Novi Travnik, and a part of the territory of Vitez
22 municipality.
23 Q. Now, sir, you told -- you mentioned the 27th Motorised Brigade.
24 I'm wondering if you can recall when that brigade was formed, perhaps who
25 its first commander was, and what was the area of responsibility of that
Page 13948
1 brigade.
2 A. Specifically the forming of the brigade I think I said yesterday
3 took place over a relatively long period of time. In any case, the order
4 I think was in May but it was actually formed in early June. That's when
5 part of the unit was lined up and that was the 27th Brigade. The first
6 commander was -- oh, I know him. He's from Slovenia, but his name escapes
7 me now although I do know it.
8 Q. Okay. Sir, let me ask you if you can remember the area that the
9 27th Brigade was located in or was responsible for.
10 A. At the moment when it was established, the 27th Brigade was
11 established in the Travnik barracks. And when its units were established,
12 when troops were recruited, their zone or -- in other words, its
13 headquarters was in Mehurici.
14 Q. Now, let me return and ask you a few questions about your role as
15 the assistant commander for operations and training within the OG Bosanska
16 Krajina. You told us a little bit about what your main responsibilities
17 were, but would it be fair to summarise part of your responsibilities or
18 an important part of your role one being whereby you were receiving and
19 reviewing reports from subordinate units on a wide variety of issues
20 concerning operational matters?
21 A. Yes. Amongst other tasks, this was also my task. All the reports
22 that arrived from units involved in combat reached me. I would sort them
23 out, I would propose to the commander what could be done. A lot of these
24 documents, since we didn't have our communications centre at the
25 beginning, reached us through the communications centre of the 17th
Page 13949
1 Krajina Brigade that had a communications centre. The person who worked
2 in the centre would deliver these documents directly to General Alagic.
3 In other words, some of the documents reached me personally and some of
4 them reached the commander directly. However, since I cooperated with the
5 commander, I was well abreast of the situation at all times.
6 Q. And, sir, where was your office when you were the assistant
7 commander for operations and training within the OG Bosanska Krajina?
8 Where was your office located?
9 A. Officially I did not have an office on my own. I shared the
10 office with two or three persons. It was an office in -- attached to the
11 Travnik barracks in a separate little building.
12 Q. Let me ask you, sir, you've told us about receiving communications
13 and reports from subordinate units of the OG Bosanska Krajina. Do you
14 recall on -- ever receiving information where subordinate units lodged
15 complaints concerning Mujahedin?
16 A. There were a number of those complaints, but those were
17 communicated to the commander. There were very few written documents to
18 that effect, or at least there were very few that reached me. In any
19 case, this was more of an organisational problem that the commander of the
20 OG had to deal with in talking to his subordinate commanders. If anybody
21 asked me, it was my place to say I have that many people, that much
22 equipment which could be used. All I could do was propose to the
23 commander how these could be used. The final decision with regard to the
24 organisation of any possible actions depended on the commander himself.
25 Q. Do you recall, sir, any specific instances where the commander of
Page 13950
1 the OG Bosanska Krajina received complaints concern the Mujahedin? When I
2 say "complaints," I mean complaints from subordinate units of the
3 operation group. Can you recall any of the specific complaints, what
4 those complaints were about?
5 A. I was the assistant commander for operations and training;
6 however, I spent very little time with the commander. When he inspected
7 his units, he would take somebody from the other bodies that could be of
8 use to him, for example, the person who was in charge of morale and
9 security. So I can't say that I was present when anybody complained and
10 said in very concrete terms, General, we have this or that problem.
11 Q. So what you're telling us then, sir, was that you were aware that
12 there were complaints from subordinate units concerning the Mujahedin, but
13 you are not aware of the substance of those complaints?
14 A. Well, this is a play on words. I was aware of the substance;
15 however, I can't provide you with the concrete detail of when those
16 complaints were lodged. Like I said yesterday, the Mujahedin recruited
17 soldiers from the existing units and some young men were attracted by good
18 uniforms, by weapons, by food they gave to their families, and they left
19 their units. And these were the biggest objections and complaints.
20 Q. Now, sir, you told us yesterday that - and this was on page 59 of
21 the transcript yesterday - you said: "As far as I know, the Mujahedin or
22 the El Mujahed detachment were never placed under the command of the
23 Bosanska Krajina OG, at least not on the basis of the documents available,
24 nor did they ever become part of the structure of the Bosanska Krajina
25 Operation Group."
Page 13951
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 13952
1 Do you remember testifying about that yesterday, sir?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Were you aware of the orders from the commander of the 3rd Corps
4 concerning the resubordination of the El Mujahed detachment with respect
5 to the Operation Group Bosanska Krajina?
6 A. I'm familiar with this order; I didn't see it, however. At this
7 point I would like to provide you with some explanation as to what is the
8 meaning of subordination, resubordination, detachment, because all these
9 elements imply different elements of responsibility. If some unit is
10 resubordinated, then it has to be accounted for when it comes to food,
11 artillery support. So we had to make a difference between subordination,
12 resubordination, attachment for the completion of a task. If somebody is
13 attached for the completion of a certain task, then this unit is not part
14 of the strength because some units did join the OG but they were not on
15 the strength of the OG. If I had said this, which I did and I adhere by
16 that, they were never organisationally part of the OG. This order, I
17 can't say whether I saw it or not, but I know that the command of the 3rd
18 Corps ordered for this unit to be either resubordinated or attached to the
19 OG for the completion of a certain task, and I adhere by that. But I can
20 also state here that this doesn't mean that they were an organisational
21 part of the OG.
22 Q. Well, let me just ask, again with the assistance of the usher if
23 the witness can be shown two documents, Prosecution Exhibit 792 and
24 Prosecution Exhibit 440.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
Page 13953
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence has the floor.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to say something that
3 my learned friend is aware of. The time given to the Defence during their
4 examination-in-chief has now been overstepped by the Prosecution. We
5 would now like to know, because of the planning of our following
6 witnesses, how much longer will the Prosecution need. This will serve our
7 planning process.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber has not noticed
9 that, but I believe that this will be useful.
10 Mr. Mundis, you have taken longer than you were supposed to.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, based on the calculations that we've
12 kept here, and I understand it's the official registry times that are
13 important, but by the estimates that we've kept I still have approximately
14 ten minutes before I would even hit the point of using the same amount of
15 time as my learned colleagues. At any rate, I would expect to be finished
16 within approximately ten minutes. But I -- if in fact the registry
17 informs me that I have exceeded my time, then we will adhere to that.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The registrar tells us that you
19 have another ten minutes. So the Defence has to re-calculate the time.
20 You may proceed, Mr. Mundis.
21 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. Witness, you've been shown two documents, Prosecution Exhibit P792
23 and Prosecution Exhibit P440. Let me ask you, sir, if you recall having
24 seen those documents prior to today.
25 A. The document dated 28 August 1993 and the number that you've
Page 13954
1 mentioned which I can't see, I have never seen before. This is an order
2 which was sent directly to the 306th. And even if the Bosanska Krajina OG
3 had been notified of it, I didn't see it. The order sent on the 6th of
4 September, 1993, seven or eight days later, again I see in this document
5 that it has never been acted upon, it hasn't been followed through.
6 Again, it is ordered that the independent unit, El Mujahed, should be
7 resubordinated to the Bosanska Krajina OG for combat according to the plan
8 of the BK Operations Group. I can explain that if you want. At this
9 moment this unit was not part of the structure and the organisational
10 strength of the OG. It didn't want to, it could not be resubordinated to
11 the 306th Brigade. The second order followed that and in this order it
12 says that this unit should be resubordinated to the OG. And I did see
13 this second document.
14 Q. Well, sir, again as a professionally trained and career military
15 man, what would you have to say about the fact that the commander of the
16 3rd Corps was ordering this El Mujahed unit to be resubordinated? You're
17 telling us that unit was not part of the OG Bosanska Krajina, but
18 certainly Commander Hadzihasanovic was ordering this unit to be
19 resubordinated to the OG Bosanska Krajina. Do you have any explanation or
20 can you shed any light on that based on your professional experience?
21 A. This is really very simple. The order pursuant to which this unit
22 is resubordinated to the unit that is part of the strength of the Bosanska
23 Krajina OG is a mistake because this could not be ordered. Our
24 subordinate unit could not receive direct units from our superior command,
25 and since this order was never followed through it was ordered that they
Page 13955
1 should be resubordinated to the Bosanska Krajina OG and that the commander
2 of the BK OG should use the unit as he saw fit. This doesn't mean that
3 they were on the strength or in the organisation of the OG. I have to say
4 that the corps commander did have the commanding right to deploy a unit
5 directly because the order given to me by telephone or in writing is the
6 same to me when it comes to subordination and hierarchy.
7 Q. But again, correct me if I'm wrong, sir, I believe yesterday,
8 again page 59, lines 6 through 8 of the transcript, you testified that the
9 El Mujahed unit or part of that unit participated with one of your
10 brigades in some combat operations, and that resulted in an unusually high
11 number of casualties.
12 Did I understand your testimony about that correctly?
13 A. I did say that, and I believe that this was in mid-September. It
14 was sometime around the 17th or the 18th of September. And the unit in
15 question is the 17th Krajina Brigade. They were not either subordinated
16 or resubordinated, they were attached to execute a task in the sector
17 belonging to the 17th Krajina Brigade. Within that sector they had their
18 own task, which they either completed or not completed maybe because of
19 their own mistake, maybe there was no coordination, or maybe there was no
20 cooperation, and that is why the 17th Krajina Brigade suffered enormous
21 loss within a very short space of time.
22 Q. And, sir, is this the only occasion that you have knowledge of or
23 recollection of in which the El Mujahed unit was attached to or operated
24 in conjunction with units of the OG Bosanska Krajina?
25 A. This is the only situation that I'm aware of, the only situation
Page 13956
1 where they worked together in the zone of responsibility of the Bosanska
2 Krajina OG. And this was within the combat area where the HVO fought in
3 Vitez against the BH army. At that time I was in a different part of the
4 zone of responsibility where the event that you mentioned a while ago took
5 place at that time.
6 Q. Thank you, sir.
7 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no further
8 questions at this time.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well then. You have
10 exhausted your time, and now I'm turning to the Defence for their
11 re-examination. I am going to give you the floor after the break. We
12 have some five or six minutes before the break.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
14 Mr. President.
15 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kulenovic, I have a few questions for you.
17 Yesterday when you were answering my learned friend's questions you said
18 that the first rumours about some foreigner fighters from the Arabic
19 countries reached you sometime in the summer of 1992 when you were in the
20 Visoko theatre of war. My question to you is: At that time did you check
21 in one way or another if the rumours were true? Did you want to learn the
22 truth behind those rumours?
23 A. I said what you have just mentioned and I repeat that the first
24 rumours involving the Mujahedin reached me sometime in July or August
25 while I was staying in the Visoko front line. I didn't check that
Page 13957
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 13958
1 information. I didn't want to find out whether there is any truth in that
2 information. I was preoccupied with something else. We did not have the
3 army, the army had not been established. We had a group or a mass of
4 poorly armed men that had to be put in some order. This was my main
5 preoccupation.
6 Q. You have also stated that you saw some foreigners from African and
7 Asian countries in Travnik in the year 1992, and they mostly appeared as
8 humanitarian workers. You also told us that the War Presidency had
9 logistic tasks to support the army. As the commander of the Territorial
10 Defence staff, did you ever directly talk to those humanitarian workers
11 from African and Asian countries, or whether in Travnik that communication
12 was with the civilian bodies of authority.
13 A. At the initial period I never personally spoke to those
14 humanitarians because we had a gentlemen's agreement to deal with all the
15 issues with the commander of the logistic centre of the Defence staff of
16 Travnik. This is just the working term that we used. So whatever
17 problems we had, I spoke to this person that was appointed by the
18 municipality.
19 Q. This logistics centre of the municipality you've just told us that
20 it was established by the Municipal Assembly. This logistics centre, was
21 it under the authority of the civilian bodies of authority or was it
22 something else?
23 A. This logistics centre was under the authority of the civilian
24 bodies, and we had a gentlemen's agreement which bore on friendly to deal
25 with problems. In other words, I had a right and an obligation to submit
Page 13959
1 my list of requirements, and they would act on those requirements and
2 would deliver whatever was necessary to the military structures and the
3 civilian population.
4 Q. You also said that the first time you saw armed Mujahedin was when
5 you were with Commander Alagic and when you entered their camp or the
6 place where they stayed not far from Mehuric. Was that your first
7 encounter with persons from African and Asian nations which acted as
8 soldiers at the same time because they were armed?
9 A. This was my first direct physical contact with these people from
10 African and Asian countries who wore arms.
11 Q. The question -- the Prosecutor has just shown you a document that
12 originated from the command of the 3rd Corps, pursuant to which the El
13 Mujahed unit was subordinated to the Bosanska Krajina OG for the execution
14 of a task. You've just seen this document. And also, you have told us
15 that you know that they did participate in some combat operations in
16 mid-September, together with the 17th Krajina Brigade. Tell me please,
17 your information about the existence of this order, did it indicate to you
18 and were you aware of that time that Commander Alagic and the commander of
19 the 3rd Corps tried to place that unit under control and command and also
20 the experience of the 17th Krajina Brigade speaks to the contrary. In
21 other words, they could not be placed under any control. Would that be
22 your experience from the time that you spent in the OG?
23 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. That's a compound
24 question. It's a leading question.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.
Page 13960
1 MR. MUNDIS: It's a compound and leading question, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The question is indeed
3 complicated; it is compound. Can you please break it down into smaller
4 pieces.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Kulenovic, from your contacts with Commander Alagic after your
7 attempt to enter the camp, could you conclude -- did you have information
8 that there were efforts in place to place these people under control, or
9 would the opposite be true? I don't know how else to put that question.
10 A. Yes, I understand your question. A little while ago in answering
11 the Prosecutor's question I said that we tried to place these people under
12 control and insert them among our ranks. After my first meeting with them
13 at the facility that you refer to as camp, and after the end of that visit
14 and the attempt to reach some sort of agreement, General Alagic used some
15 very harsh words, I can't quote him, but he said more or less, These men
16 should either be disarmed or chased away to where they came from. This is
17 just a rough quote or a summary of General Alagic's opinion. I believe
18 that he spoke on several occasions to his superior command. He wanted
19 this unit to be, as he said, soldierised and placed under control. He
20 wanted them to be drilled and trained. In any case, an attempt was made
21 to place that unit under control and to put them in the function of the
22 armed combat under the control of the BH army.
23 Q. Mr. Kulenovic, given the experience that you have and about which
24 you spoken to this Trial Chamber, when you were attached to the OG, when
25 you were attached to the 17th Krajina Brigade, can you tell us could they
Page 13961
1 effectively be placed under the control of the Bosnian army despite your
2 efforts?
3 A. During this combat operation I was in a different place, on a
4 different location. However, based on all my previous knowledge and based
5 on the subsequent conversation with the participants in that action, this
6 unit was not an organic part of the 17th Brigade. They just performed
7 tasks. They were given their axis, their task, and as far as I know, as
8 far as I'm familiar with the military matters, they were never part of the
9 17th Brigade. They were never either subordinated or resubordinated.
10 They wanted to be independent, they wanted to perform their task
11 independently at all times.
12 Q. In the previous answer to my learned friend you said that you know
13 that they participated together with the 17th. But now if I understand
14 you well, you're saying -- you are talking about things in plural. What
15 can you tell me about your personal knowledge of the participation of the
16 El Mujahed unit together with another unit from the OG? In other words,
17 according to your personal knowledge in 1993, how many times the El
18 Mujahed detachment participated in combat together with some other unit of
19 the OG? Was it just that one occasion when they were attached to the 17th
20 or were there any other cases?
21 A. I know of just one specific case into which we had an insight,
22 where we could exert some sort of partial control and command; this was in
23 the second half of September when they sort of cooperated with the 17th
24 Brigade.
25 Q. You entered with Commander Alagic their camp in the vicinity of
Page 13962
1 Mehurici. Did you know whether there existed some other places in the
2 territory where the units of the Bosanska Krajina OG were active, where
3 there were also Mujahedin? Did you know of any other such places or was
4 this the only place that you visited and that you were aware of?
5 A. This was the only place that I was aware of that they had their
6 base and that they stayed there. If there had been any other places, I
7 was not aware of them.
8 Q. And my last question with regard to the questions put to you by my
9 learned friend is again connected with the logistical centre of the War
10 Presidency. Tell me please, who did the logistical centre provide
11 assistance to? Who did the civilian authorities provide aid to from this
12 logistical centre?
13 A. When this logistical centre, which had been established by the
14 municipality and was under their authority, under the authority of the
15 civilian authorities, most of the aid that arrived, I don't know where
16 from and how, was spent on refugees or people who had been expelled from
17 the territories that I have already mentioned. So whenever there were
18 different waves of refugees and expelled persons, several tonnes of food
19 were used for them, as well as clothes, food, blankets, and everything
20 else that was necessary for their accommodation. A lot of that aid was
21 used for the purposes of the TO staff. Once the units were formed, this
22 served to provide logistical support for these units. Also the
23 beneficiaries of that aid were other civilian structures. For example, I
24 received a tonne of washing powder and I provided the hospital with 700
25 kilos of washing powder, for which I was praised by the doctors, by the
Page 13963
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 13964
1 patients, because the situation in the hospital was critical at times.
2 Q. I apologise. I believe that this would be the last question.
3 However, the document that my learned friend showed you as originated from
4 the 306th Brigade in which the Mujahedins are mentioned in two places, the
5 question was put to you whether it would be normal for a unit to send a
6 report to the superior command and mention somebody who is not on its
7 strength. My question to you: As a soldier, tell me, would it be normal
8 for one unit to uniform its superior command of every fact that might have
9 any sort of influence on the morale and the combat readiness of that
10 particular unit?
11 A. I will be very direct in my answer. Not only is it normal, it is
12 an obligation of every unit. If a unit enters the location of another
13 unit, that latter unit has to inform its superior command and ask for
14 explanation as to why that happened. So not only is it normal, but it is
15 also the obligation of the unit to report on any other unit being deployed
16 in its area of responsibility asking for further explanations from its
17 superior command. As a lower-ranking commander, I don't have to know what
18 my superior commander is thinking or doing.
19 Q. Also as a professional soldier, can you tell me, would it be
20 normal or is it normal that a unit informs its superior command about
21 those who have nothing whatsoever to do with the army requesting from the
22 superior command to address the issue or forward it to a higher place that
23 can address the issue. Would it be normal or would it be an exception?
24 A. I've already said that this is not an exception, this is normal,
25 because any such thing as a direct bearing on the system of command and
Page 13965
1 control of the unit where this unit is deployed. So it is normal and it
2 is a must for such a unit to inform its superior command and even send it
3 its proposal for the solution to this problem.
4 Q. And my last question: Given your overall experience in the year
5 1993, would you be able to say if there was any other -- any level in the
6 BiH army would be the level that could deal with the issue of Mujahedin
7 and their presence in the area. Was that an issue that had to be resolved
8 by the army or could be resolved by the army?
9 A. I understand your question and I can only tell you one thing. To
10 the extent that I stayed in the territory covered by various units, in my
11 view this unit was never part of any of the units that we have mentioned
12 so far. And my opinion at the time was that this unit could not be
13 controlled or commanded. I can't tell you anything about our
14 higher-ranking units.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
16 Mr. President. I have no further questions.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to make a technical
18 break. It is 10 to 4.00. We should resume at 4.20.
19 --- Recess taken at 3.51 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 4.24 p.m.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall now resume. I am going
22 to give the floor to the other Defence team for their re-examination.
23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
24 have no questions.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Judges have a few questions
Page 13966
1 to put to you. The Judges search for the truth and have the right to put
2 the questions to the witness arising from the questions put to the witness
3 from -- by the Prosecution and the Defence.
4 Questioned by the Court:
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a few issues to clarify
6 with you, sir. You told us that when you were educated by the JNA to
7 become a JNA officer you specialised in reconnaissance and sabotage. Is
8 that what you have told us?
9 A. Yes, that's precisely what I said.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I suppose that during your
11 activities within the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina you also worked in
12 the area of sabotage and reconnaissance. Is that correct?
13 A. I wish I could have done such work because the Army of Bosnia and
14 Herzegovina might have been more successful. However, as the army as an
15 armed force had not been formed. In view of our equipment and materiel
16 and other logistical support, it was not possible either to prepare such a
17 unit or carry out such activities.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You left the BiH army when, in
19 what year?
20 A. When I left the BH army, is that what you asked me? I didn't
21 leave the BH army; I remained within the BH army structure and my last job
22 was in the Ministry of Defence of the Federation of BH in the agency for
23 monitoring and controlling weapons. And now ...
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your last job in the army then
25 would have to correspond to a certain rank. What was your last rank?
Page 13967
1 A. My last rank was that of colonel. And --
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That's what I wanted
3 to hear from you because when you are responding to questions it seemed to
4 me that you were a high-ranking officer, and the fact that you left the
5 army as colonel confirms this. You explained to us that you carried out
6 inspection of the front lines. The Defence showed you a document showing
7 that you were a member of the joint command. Can we conclude from this
8 that in the operations group, that is the Bosanska Krajina Operations
9 Group and in your various activities, you had a certain level of
10 responsibility which was of medium importance or great importance. What
11 could you tell us about this?
12 A. First of all, I would like to explain something. There was a
13 difference that the HVO insisted upon. There was the joint command and
14 the common command. I was a member of the common command, not the joint
15 command. Joint would mean that they were one and the same; and the common
16 means that they carried out certain tasks together. When I was carrying
17 out my duties in the common command, my tasks and duties were of a medium
18 level of responsibility. Roughly speaking, I gathered and processed
19 information and I presented all this information together with my own
20 opinions and suggestions to the higher-level command. And I toured the
21 troops on the ground and I made proposals as to how certain problems
22 should be solved, having to do both with the army and with the
23 organisation of life in general.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Your reply to the
25 Judges shows that there were in fact two structures. There was a joint
Page 13968
1 level and a common level. So these were two structures, and you say you
2 were in the common command. When responding to the question on page 20,
3 line 20, of the record, and this was in connection with the Mujahedin, you
4 said the following, and I quote: "They carried out recruitment, or rather
5 they tried to recruit people from already existing units."
6 Do you confirm that you said this?
7 A. Yes, because indirectly they took these people away from the
8 regular units by offering them food, clothing, other equipment, because
9 they realised that as there was a general lack of resources these people
10 would go where they could have something to gain. And this affected the
11 situation in the units that these people left.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you know, to the best
13 of your knowledge, how many men left the regular units in order to join
14 the ranks of the Mujahedin? Are you aware of any numbers? Do you know
15 approximately how many men there were?
16 A. I cannot be precise, but I can give you a rough estimate. Many
17 young men left because they received material means but they soon came
18 back because their code of behaviour, the religious life to which the
19 young men from Bosnia and Herzegovina were not used -- because they had a
20 different way of expressing their faith and they were not used to the
21 rigours of this religious life, so they came back. There was a lot of
22 movement to and fro. They would stay there briefly and then come back, so
23 I can't tell you exactly how many there were.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, so you do not have a
25 number. When you learned that a soldier had left his unit and joined the
Page 13969
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 13970
1 Mujahedin - and I am addressing you now as a professional soldier - did
2 the military hierarchy institute a procedure for desertion against such a
3 young man who left his unit, to the best of your knowledge? I'm putting
4 this question to you because we have seen documents of the 3rd Corps
5 saying that deserters should be prosecuted. That's why I'm putting this
6 question.
7 A. The question is clear to me and I can respond very briefly or I
8 can expand on my answer. The units did take certain measures. For the
9 most part, the commanders or assistant commanders for morale, religious
10 matters, and so on tried to talk to the parents or the close relatives of
11 the soldier to try to get him to come back. In the meantime, there would
12 have been a record made of this and certain measures taken. During my
13 testimony I have already said that the brigade police could not penetrate
14 into this camp. That has often been mentioned in order to interview a
15 soldier and carry out their job, actually. I can add that usually it was
16 the parents or the people, whether we wish to admit it or not, accepted
17 the Mujahedin unit because they were providing support and help. And the
18 parents would often say, Well, I want my son to fight for the freedom of
19 our people. It didn't matter where, with what units. So this did cause
20 certain problems.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but independently of the
22 parents did the army itself take any measures? Did it sanction desertion?
23 Because in any army in the world, deserters are punished. That's the
24 question I'm putting to you. At your level of activity did you know that
25 punishments had been meted out for soldiers who joined the Mujahedin and
Page 13971
1 later returned because this was not what they had expected? Were there
2 such punishments?
3 A. As far as I know, yes, there were punishments and certain measures
4 were taken to punish such actions. The documents pursuant to which this
5 was done is something I haven't seen. But I know we had a relatively
6 small number of men, relatively little equipment and weapons, and all
7 these young men who came back after certain measures, regardless of the
8 severity of these measures, because of the needs for fighters were sent
9 back to their units. For example, on the front lines I would punish any
10 kind of violations such as drunkenness and so on and so forth. The men
11 would be sent to do some necessary task. That's how these issues were
12 resolved.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My last question now in
14 connection with what you have just been telling us about. When you were
15 with General Alagic in this camp near Mehurici, you said quite
16 spontaneously that General Alagic told you that they were to be
17 soldierised, transformed into soldiers. When you went to visit them, what
18 was the aim of this visit? Was the purpose of the visit to tell them that
19 they had to be integrated into the structure of the Army of Bosnia and
20 Herzegovina? Was this the main goal of your visit? Or was it simply
21 establishing contact with them? Can you tell us more about this? Can you
22 explain what the goal of the visit to these people was?
23 A. Yes, Mr. President. The simplest explanation would be to say that
24 General Alagic, and I with him as his immediate subordinate, went to the
25 camp for several reasons. The first of these were the frequent complaints
Page 13972
1 of lower-ranking units against the presence of these people and the
2 problems that have been mentioned and to integrate them into the
3 structure. And the second reason was, if we managed to integrate them
4 into the structure to see how they might possibly be used in combat, in
5 specific combat activities. After we completed this visit, I said I can't
6 recall the exact words, but what was said they had to be soldierised,
7 transformed into soldiers. We went to see how many of them there were, to
8 try and put them under some sort of control. Now, whether General Alagic
9 had any orders from a higher command or any other information, I don't
10 know. But in my view, that was the aim of the visit.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you went to see them you
12 mentioned a number. You said that some were armed and others were not.
13 On the day you went to that camp, how many of them where were
14 approximately, more or less?
15 A. I think I said that yesterday that I saw four of Afro-Asian
16 origin, and three of them had weapons; these were rifles slung on their
17 backs. And I think there were seven or eight who were at some distance
18 from us. So we only had contact with those three men in that little hut
19 where we were sitting, and we tried to reach some sort of agreement with
20 them. So three inside, four armed, and seven or eight a bit further off.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you for
22 clarifying this. You said that General Alagic said: "They should be
23 disarmed or sent back to where they came from."
24 These words by General Alagic can also be seen in the documents.
25 If we had time we would show you that, but unfortunately we don't have the
Page 13973
1 time. Can you confirm, however, that General Alagic personally said that
2 they had to be either disarmed or sent home? Is this what you were
3 talking about?
4 A. Yes, Mr. President. I would like to clarify. General Alagic --
5 in Bosnia we only speak well of the dead, but he used some worse words,
6 words that were not as nice which I would not like to repeat now. But the
7 meaning was that they should be either disarmed or disciplined or sent
8 away. That would be the main purpose of what he said.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now I will put to you a question
10 that I usually put to every witness. For me as a Judge this question
11 always arises; I always ask myself this. Tell me, how is it possible that
12 some 20 men at the most in that camp - you say there were four of
13 Afro-Asian origin and there were eight or nine of them all together - how
14 could it happen that 10 or 20 persons can represent such a force in
15 comparison with the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina about which a general
16 testifying before the Tribunal said was that there were 32.000 people
17 under the command of the 3rd Corps. So how is it possible for 20 people
18 to stand up to 35 or 32.000? Can you explain this or should we seek for
19 another explanation? The Defence put a similar question to you. In your
20 view, did the solution have to come through the army or through some other
21 institution? What can you as a soldier and high-ranking officer say in
22 reply to this question that we are all asking ourselves?
23 A. I will try, although you have put a number of specific questions
24 to me. I don't know whether there were 15 or 20 or more men; I don't
25 know. But in the period we are talking about, on the one hand we have the
Page 13974
1 Serb/Chetnik aggressors; on the other hand we have the HVO which at every
2 point in time was doing its best to cause a conflict and to minimise the
3 role and function of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was said to
4 be an illegal force of the force of Bosnia and Herzegovina and it should
5 be put under the control of the legitimate authorities of Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina, that is the HVO. I had a meeting with General Blaskic and
7 General Kordic. When I went to see Blaskic to solve a problem, Kordic
8 wanted to throw me out, saying that I was illegal. I think I mentioned
9 that General Blaskic and I had worked together in the former JNA and he
10 had learned a lot from me, speaking conditionally, and I solved a lot of
11 things together with him. So we had the Chetniks, we had the HVO on the
12 other side, we had poverty, hunger and, speaking in military terms, there
13 were no conditions to prepare for combat activity. You say a small force.
14 Well, yes, objectively it's a minimal force. In military terms it would
15 not be taken into consideration as a force that could have a decisive
16 impact. However, in view of the situation I have just described, we had
17 to take care of every man, every man who could give us a drop of milk,
18 every person who could give us a bullet or two. I personally led soldiers
19 who I would give 15 bullets each before they were sent to carry out a
20 task, whereas normally this would be -- the kit would be 150. In other
21 words, I led people into war, sent them to their deaths, with 15 bullets
22 in their hands. We needed all sorts of things, and that's why both I and
23 General Alagic - and most probably the higher command, but I wouldn't like
24 to comment on that - tried to get these people to become soldiers and to
25 carry out the same role as the army as a whole. Because in my view, the
Page 13975
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 13976
1 army was very well-consolidated and ordered compared to the situation we
2 had, the materiel situation, and everything else.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we have to draw a conclusion
4 that you did not have the military means to face a group of that force
5 because your men, your troops, were not well-equipped and you had
6 difficulties with that. Is that the gist of your answer?
7 A. This is just one part of the answers that I've provided. Yes, we
8 didn't have enough materiel means and we had to save every single bullet
9 to fight the real enemy. And this group, they could have been of some use
10 to us if we have been able to organise them and place them under control.
11 I'm speaking conditionally.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I thank you very much.
13 You have answered the Judges' questions and the two parties have
14 the right to put questions to you arising from the Judges' questions,
15 either to clarify the answers that you have provided or because they have
16 some other reason to re-examine you.
17 First I'm going to ask the Prosecution whether they have any
18 questions to put to you?
19 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution has no
20 further questions for the witness.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 And now the Defence. Do you have any questions?
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have a few questions.
24 The other Defence team does not have any questions, but I do.
25 Further examination by Ms. Residovic:
Page 13977
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kulenovic, the Presiding Judge has asked you
2 about what you saw on that day and wanted to know the number of the
3 Mujahedin who were there on that day. Did you know at all what was the
4 number of persons who were accommodated, either in that camp or somewhere
5 else where our units were active? Did you ever know the number of these
6 men?
7 A. I understand your question, and I am going to provide you with a
8 clear answer. I never knew the exact number of these men.
9 Q. Mr. Kulenovic, were you aware of the number of the local men who
10 joined them for various reasons or those who supported them for various
11 reasons?
12 A. I don't know the exact number, how many joined them or supported
13 them. I've just told the Presiding Judge that there were men who joined
14 them and they returned to our ranks. How much and to what extent they
15 supported them, I don't know. But I only know that they went just to take
16 some provisions from them and return with those. I don't know the exact
17 number.
18 Q. The Presiding Judge asked you something that is very important and
19 that reappears in this trial, and that is the question of why an armed
20 force was not used against these people. And you have provided a partial
21 answer. My additional question to you is as follows: As a professional
22 soldier can you tell us, in order to carry out a military operation would
23 it have been necessary for you to know the number, the place, the
24 equipment, the level of education, and everything else that the people
25 that you are about to fight against have at their disposal? Would that be
Page 13978
1 important for you to know?
2 A. Let me answer professionally. The armies of the world use
3 different methods in order to acquire data on the enemy. One of those
4 means is to acquire intelligence during combat. We could have engaged in
5 combat in order to locate a block, to destroy or capture these people and
6 so on and so forth. However, let me say something else. There was a lot
7 of smuggling going on through the Vlasic plateau where there -- this
8 smuggling involved a lot of civilians and soldiers. The command of the OG
9 Bosanska Krajina carried out a blockade together with the military police
10 and the police forces of brigades that were on the ground and they managed
11 to break that smuggling chain. The BiH army was in a position and was
12 able to carry out such an operation, but they were wanted to know what the
13 final result would be. We didn't know the exact number or location, but
14 if we wanted -- if we had wanted to find out we could have done it
15 forcibly.
16 Q. Since you were aware of the situation and the importance of saving
17 your men and every bullet, would it have been necessary for you to make an
18 estimate as to -- if such a combat -- such a fight had taken place, would
19 that have caused a certain degree of fighting between you and the local
20 population that supported the Mujahedin? Was that one of the elements
21 that you had to take into account and assess?
22 A. Let me re-organise your question a little. You said whether this
23 was important. I would say whether this was decisive. And I would say
24 that this was this - a decisive element. If such a conflict had started,
25 then the people who supported the BiH army and provided them with
Page 13979
1 logistical support would have turned against the army and the BiH army
2 would have certainly enjoyed much less support if such a conflict had
3 started with the Mujahedin.
4 Q. Let me clarify what you have just said for the benefit of the
5 Judges. Is that the reason why you said that this could not be resolved
6 by the army but that it had to be resolved in some other place?
7 A. It could have been resolved physically, by military means, but for
8 the other reasons that I've just mentioned we avoided that, a physical
9 showdown. Instead of using force, we resorted to some other means. We
10 tried to involve politics in order to resolve that situation.
11 Q. In response to one of the questions put to you by the
12 Presiding Judge you told us what General Alagic's comment was after your
13 meeting in the camp. If I understood you well he said first that they had
14 to be soldierised, turned into soldiers and used as such; and the second
15 time he said they should be disarmed and chased away. Is that correct?
16 A. But there was no first and second time. There was just the first
17 part of his comment when he said that they had to be soldierised, turned
18 into soldiers, and the second part which was, or alternatively they should
19 be disarmed and chased away.
20 Q. You have testified about the attempt of turning them into soldiers
21 and using them in combat together with the 17th Brigade. Tell me, please,
22 this attempt to use them as soldiers in your view as a soldier, did it
23 prove that this was next to impossible? Let me not put words into your
24 mouth. How would you -- what would you say about that?
25 A. Yes. Men are always susceptible to influence; however, these
Page 13980
1 people were not susceptible to influence because they didn't want to be
2 turned into soldiers the way we, the army of BiH, wanted to have them.
3 And their use, the way they wanted to be used, in this specific case was a
4 failure when they were used together with our units that performed a
5 certain task.
6 Q. And my last question arising from the Judge's question. When you
7 were explaining why you couldn't enter a conflict with these groups, could
8 you also tell the Trial Chamber what were the basic problems and tasks
9 that the OG Bosanska Krajina faced in the summer of 1993. Was that the
10 Defence from the Chetniks, the Serbian and the Chetnik aggressors, the
11 fight with the HVO in the Lasva valley, the aim of which was to keep a
12 certain part of that area, or to contain this group of Mujahedin?
13 A. Well, you have already provided a good part of my answer in your
14 question. At the beginning of my testimony I said that at the moment the
15 defence staff of Travnik was formed, the most important thing was for us
16 to defend ourselves and to prevent the further breakthrough of the Serbian
17 and Chetnik aggressor in that. The second problem was to be as successful
18 in fighting against the HVO as much as we could. At the beginning, the
19 HVO was taught to cooperate with us in the fight for an integral Bosnia
20 and Herzegovina, and this was proven to be wrong eventually. And the
21 third problem was looking after the population and everybody else. And
22 our last -- if you want a hierarchy, the last problem would be the
23 internal fight for the organisation of certain units and placing them
24 under very stringent control. This may be just my opinion. We looked
25 after every man, after every bullet. On Vlasic plateau, one-third of our
Page 13981
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 13982
1 OG was there defending the plateau from the Serbian and Chetnik aggressor,
2 at least one-third if not one-half was on the lines fighting the HVO. So
3 we had one-fourth less troops who were either resting or doing other thing
4 which all this is against any military norm of using troops to perform any
5 tasks.
6 Q. Now finally my last question since you have provided a very good
7 explanation. As a soldier, you know and I know as a lay person that every
8 commander cares about the life of every soldier. Given into account all
9 of these elements and your experience when only during one hour of
10 fighting involving the Mujahedin, 12 members of a brigade were killed and
11 over a hundred were wounded, was there any commander who could afford
12 himself a luxury to start fighting a group that proved to be so dangerous
13 when it came to casualties?
14 A. You mentioned the word luxury; every commander could afford such a
15 luxury; however, the final result would be a disaster. It would be an
16 ultimate luxury to start such a fight in which so many casualties could be
17 expected. No commander wanted to do that. They didn't dare do that.
18 Q. Thank you very much.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team, do you
20 have any questions?
21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, your testimony is now
23 concluded by the answers that you have provided to various questions. We
24 would like to thank you for your personal contribution to the search of
25 truth. You have answered the questions put to you by both parties. I can
Page 13983
1 only wish you a happy journey back home to your country, and I wish you
2 the -- a good year on behalf of the Trial Chamber and a pleasant
3 retirement. I'm going to ask the usher to accompany you out of the
4 courtroom.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Same to you.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we bring the next witness
8 into the courtroom, I believe that Mr. Registrar has some corrections to
9 make.
10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Just
11 two corrections with regard to the documents that have been admitted into
12 evidence. In the first part of our session today, the first correction is
13 relative to the document that was admitted as a document under seal as
14 DH168; it is actually the Prosecution document which is P168. And the
15 second document is the one that was admitted under DH1983. There has been
16 an error here. The document is DH1983, and the translation is DH1983/E.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well then. We are awaiting
18 the arrival of the next witness. And in the meantime account Defence tell
19 us how much time they have envisaged for the examination-in-chief of this
20 witness.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have envisaged
22 an hour and a half, but I'll make sure to curtail that by at least 15
23 minutes. The witness tomorrow will require less time and I believe that
24 today and tomorrow we will be able to complete the testimony of both
25 witnesses that have been envisaged for that.
Page 13984
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber would like to thank
2 you for this information and your effort. And while we are waiting for
3 the second witness to arrive, it will take some time because the first
4 witness has to be taken out of the Tribunal and the second witness brought
5 in.
6 Mr. Mundis, you have the floor.
7 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. According to our records,
8 there were a few documents, perhaps four documents, that were new
9 documents that were shown to the last witness. I don't know if the
10 Defence is planning on tendering those into evidence or if we're going to
11 wait for a later point in time.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Maybe we could benefit
13 from this time and regulate the admission of documents into evidence.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have shown
15 several documents to the witness that have already been tendered through
16 General Merdan, and we only wish to tender document 0591, 1169, 0774, and
17 1501.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you wish to tender four new
19 documents into evidence, 0591, 1169, 0774, and 15050 [as interpreted].
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] There is a mistake. The first
21 document is not 0591 but 0951.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This has to be
23 corrected. It is 0951.
24 Mr. Mundis, do you have any objections?
25 MR. MUNDIS: We have no objections, Mr. President.
Page 13985
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Mr. Registrar, you have the floor. Can you give us the numbers
3 for these documents.
4 Mr. Usher, can you please go and fetch the next witness in the
5 meantime.
6 Everybody has a task here.
7 Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The
9 four documents are as follows: DHD [as interpreted] 51 [Realtime
10 transcript read in error "59"], with the translation, DH951/E; the next
11 one, DH1169, and the English translation DH1169/E; and the next one is
12 774, and the translation 774/E; and finally the last document, the fourth
13 document, DH1501, and the English translation 1501/E.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. But I believe that
15 we have a mistake in the transcript on line 12. It says here that the
16 document is DH79 [as interpreted]. I believe that this is a mistake.
17 This should be DH951. Can you please have a look at line 12 of the
18 transcript.
19 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right, Mr. President.
20 There has been a mistake in the transcript and the document number is --
21 the documents are 951, 1169, 774, and 1501. Thank you.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, this is one fuzzy
24 one. Again I've made a mistake. It's too late now.
25 Luckily enough we've only had four documents on the agenda. I
Page 13986
1 apologise, we have dealt with the documents. We wanted to make use of the
2 time between the departure of the previous witness and your arrival.
3 Before I go on, I would like you to confirm that you hear and understand
4 me.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I hear you and understand you.
6 WITNESS: VEZIR JUSUFSPAHIC
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been called as a
9 Defence witness. Before you take the solemn declaration, I would like to
10 know who you are and that's why I would kindly ask you to give me your
11 name, last name, the date of birth, the place of birth.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vezir Jusufspahic, 23rd February,
13 1950, in Cajnice.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current profession?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm retired.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1992 and 1993, did you have a
17 profession? If you were a member of the military, what military was that
18 and which units did you serve in?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1992 I was working in the
20 municipal staff of the Territorial Defence of Zenica, and later on I
21 joined the ranks of the BH army.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the BiH army, were you a
23 member of a brigade or a command? What unit did you belong to?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a member of the 3rd Corps.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified
Page 13987
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 13988
1 before an international Tribunal or before a national court about the
2 things that happened in your country in the years 1992 and 1993? Or is
3 this the first time you testified about these events?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my first time to testify.
5 I've never testified before.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you please read the solemn
7 declaration that the usher is handing out to you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. You may be
11 seated.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to the
14 Defence lawyers, I need to provide you with some explanation that will
15 facilitate these proceedings. First you have to answer the questions that
16 will be put to you by the Defence lawyers. You have already met with
17 them. After that stage, the Prosecution sitting on your right will also
18 be asking you questions, and their questions are called cross-examination.
19 The Prosecution will be given the same time as the Defence. If the
20 Defence is given one hour, the Prosecution will also be given one hour.
21 After that stage, the Defence teams will have the right to
22 re-examine you. After that, the three Judges sitting in front of you may
23 also have some questions for you. Most of the time when the Judges do
24 have the questions, it is to clarify things in order to find out the truth
25 or to elaborate on the issues that you have tackled during your testimony.
Page 13989
1 I need to inform you of two other things that are also important.
2 You have just sworn to tell the truth, which means you are not to
3 provide -- give us false testimony. This would be an infringement
4 punishable by law. And the second thing that I have to inform you about
5 is the fact that the witness has the right and the duties, the duty is to
6 answer questions, and the right of the witness is not to answer those
7 questions which might one day incriminate him. In that case, you are
8 allowed to say that you don't want to answer a question. In this
9 exceptional case, the Chamber may compel you to answer such a question,
10 but they will tell you that there will be no consequences for you. And by
11 doing that, the Chamber will award you a sort of immunity. I wanted to
12 tell you this because this is -- this constitutes the rights of the
13 accused [as interpreted] during any proceedings.
14 I would also like to tell you that we are in the so-called oral
15 proceedings. We don't have any written documents before us. We don't
16 know anything about what you are going to say in answering your questions.
17 So try and be as clear and precise as possible in your answers provided to
18 both parties, because what you are going to say will appear on the screen
19 in front of you in English. This will be the translation of your words.
20 You can always refer to the screen if you read English. If not, you have
21 to trust the interpreters who interpret either your words or the words of
22 the parties in the -- to the proceedings. If at any point in time there
23 are difficulties, you can always ask the party who has put the question to
24 you to rephrase it and the Chamber will take care that the proceedings go
25 on smoothly. The Defence counsel will have another information to give
Page 13990
1 you concerning interpretation.
2 I give the floor to the Defence counsel.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Examined by Ms. Residovic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Jusufspahic.
6 A. Good afternoon.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in order to save
8 time I would kindly ask the usher to provide the Trial Chamber and our
9 learned friends in the courtroom with a set of documents that I'm going to
10 be using during the examination of this witness. This is to save us
11 interrupting the course of the examination-in-chief.
12 Q. During that time, as the Presiding Judge has already told you,
13 Mr. Jusufspahic, I have another information to give you. I would kindly
14 ask you to make a pause before giving the answer to my question; this will
15 allow the interpreters to interpret my question. This is my obligation
16 when you provide your answer. If we don't do that, the Trial Chamber and
17 our learned friends will not be able to follow what we are saying.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.
19 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. While this is being done I
20 rise only with hesitation to perhaps suggest that we, prior to the
21 commencement of the start of this witness's testimony, take a break.
22 There's a relatively important matter that I feel I might need to discuss
23 with my learned colleagues prior to their proceeding, which I think might
24 actually be beneficial to the parties.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well then.
Page 13991
1 If there are no objections on the part of the Defence, we are
2 going to make a break and we shall resume around 20 or 15 minutes to 6.00,
3 and we'll go until 7.00. The parties are going to discuss a certain
4 matter during the break, and we shall resume at around quarter to 6.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 5.19 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 5.46 p.m.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall now resume.
8 Did you sort out all the problems? No problems then. Okay.
9 Mr. Usher, can you please accompany the witness into the
10 courtroom.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have the floor.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Jusufspahic, can you tell us what your education is.
15 A. I have completed the post-secondary two-year school for pedagogy.
16 Q. Before the war did you serve in the army and did you have any
17 rank?
18 A. I did my regular military service in the former JNA and I was
19 captain first class after I finished this service.
20 Q. When asked by the President, you said that in 1992 you were in the
21 municipal staff of the Zenica Territorial Defence. Can you please tell us
22 in 1992 who were the commanders of the municipal staff?
23 A. In 1992 the first commander was Jozo Jerkic. After him there was
24 Branko Boncina who, before the war, had been the commander of that staff
25 for a long time.
Page 13992
1 Q. What did you do in the municipal staff of Zenica? What were your
2 duties?
3 A. I was in charge of operations and training.
4 Q. In 1992, did there come a time when there were organisational
5 changes in the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and did you change your
6 employment or your post?
7 A. Yes. Yes. In November, I don't remember the precise date but it
8 was in mid-November, two officers arrived from Sarajevo intending to
9 establish some sort of command. At the time, we didn't know what sort of
10 command.
11 Q. Were you involved in some way with the arrival of these two
12 officers from Sarajevo?
13 A. Yes. Mustafa Poparic and I because we were from Zenica and we
14 were familiar to a certain extent in the situation in Zenica were asked
15 whether there was a building in Zenica where a command could be housed.
16 And there were certain requirements that had to be met. We suggested
17 engineering Zeljica [phoen], that building, because it met those
18 requirements.
19 Q. And did you learn at that time who these officers were?
20 A. No. At that time I didn't know either of them. Later on I found
21 out who they were, but at that time I didn't know.
22 Q. After you assisted in the search for a facility to house the new
23 command, did you receive any orders on taking up new duties, on the
24 transfer to new duties?
25 A. Yes. I received an order that I was to go to the corps command,
Page 13993
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 13994
1 and that was the first time I learned that a corps command was being
2 established.
3 Q. I assume that you then learned who these officers were and what
4 their duties in the corps would be. Would you tell us that.
5 A. Yes, that's correct. These were two officers from Sarajevo, Enver
6 Hadzihasanovic and Muradif Mekic. One was the commander and the other one
7 was the chief of staff.
8 Q. And what were your duties in the command of the 3rd Corps?
9 A. The same as in the municipal staff. I was the operations organ in
10 the staff.
11 Q. In view of the fact that this was the beginning of the creation of
12 the 3rd Corps, can you tell Their Honours what were the commander's
13 priorities at the time.
14 A. In the beginning, we all had briefings together as there were not
15 many of us. And the priorities were to set up the operations centre as
16 soon as possible and to establish links or connections with the units as
17 soon as possible.
18 Q. Did the commander want to know the situation on the ground? Did
19 you have a role in presenting or indicating the situation in the area
20 where the 3rd Corps was to be?
21 A. Yes. The war was going on, and one had to tour the territory.
22 Some of the officers, together with the commander, toured the territory
23 where the corps was to be set up, and I was part of that team.
24 Q. And what was the situation you found on the territory you toured?
25 A. To put it briefly, there was chaos in every municipality, just
Page 13995
1 like in Zenica. There were many fragmented units, many different
2 commands, many commanders. Some units were acquiring a character of their
3 own. This was all very fragmented.
4 Q. In view of the fact that you were the operations and training
5 organ, do you know whether there was a re-organisation in the units in the
6 area?
7 A. Of course there was re-organisation in the units.
8 Q. With respect to your duties in the operations and training organ,
9 was there a requirement that an operations and training organ be
10 designated and established so that it could carry out the functions that
11 that organ had to do? What was done in this respect?
12 A. When the commander ordered that the operations centre be
13 established as soon as possible, quite truthfully I didn't really know
14 what that meant. I was a reserve officer; I was not a professional
15 officer. And I wasn't quite sure what an operations centre was, and he
16 insisted that the operations centre be established as soon as possible.
17 There were three of us operations men. Nehru Ganic was to be our chief
18 but he was late in arriving. So we started, the three of us, and we
19 didn't know anything about this. Ganic knew something more about this,
20 but we started working.
21 Q. Tell us, how did the operations and training organ function? What
22 did it do? How did it work?
23 A. As you heard a little while ago, first of all we had to establish
24 communications. No command can function if there are no communications.
25 We established communications by means of radio stations which were not
Page 13996
1 the kind that a corps was supposed to have. The real package
2 communications were not set up until June so that in the operations centre
3 we were handicapped by that fact. Then we didn't have the equipment we
4 needed or the other things such as maps. I remember I brought the maps
5 from the district staff, the TO staff I mean, whatever I was able to find.
6 Q. And how did you work? What were your tasks in fact?
7 A. Our first tasks were to receive reports from the units to see what
8 the situation in the units was, to assist as far as we were able in
9 carrying out their combat tasks. And the first order that was supposed to
10 unify all this was written down at that time. And this was about the use
11 of the units on the ground. We were the ones who were supposed to
12 implement all this.
13 Q. When you received the reports from the units, were there other
14 duties you had to do as the operations and training centre or organ?
15 A. Yes. Every report from the terrain that we received, we collated
16 these and we took note of what was important. Something has been switched
17 off. I apologise.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would you please assist the
19 witness.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I probably pushed something
21 inadvertently. It's all right now.
22 When we received the reports, we wrote up our own report to the
23 staffs of the superior command -- supreme command. We extracted
24 information we considered important. And once in 24 hours we had to send
25 a report of the command of the 3rd Corps to the superior command.
Page 13997
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. You just said that the three of you in the operations organ had no
3 previous knowledge about the work of the operations and training centre.
4 What was the staffing situation in the subordinate units?
5 A. It was even worse in the subordinate units and we were able to see
6 that from these reports. They were not proper combat reports. We could
7 see how well-trained somebody was from the way they compiled a report, and
8 the reports were received were terrible.
9 Q. In the operations and training centre, were there certain office
10 hours or was the work organised differently?
11 A. We worked in shifts. There were three of us, and we changed
12 shifts every 8 or 12 hours. And the same thing happened in the
13 communications centre. We weren't there for 24 hours at a time. This was
14 in a basement. You couldn't stand it for more than ten hours at a time.
15 Q. You said that you had to send reports to the superior command,
16 that is the staff of the supreme command. Tell me, these reports, did
17 they have to be sent by certain deadlines or did this depend on your own
18 will when you were to send such reports?
19 A. There were deadlines. And these deadlines forced us to send
20 reports on time. This was usually by 2200 hours, as far as I can
21 remember. The units of course had to submit their reports earlier. Very
22 often they were late, so we had to rush when compiling our own report.
23 Q. Tell me, all the reports that arrived in the operations and
24 training centre, did they reach the corps commander?
25 A. No, they didn't reach the corps commander. We in the operations
Page 13998
1 organ would assess whether there was anything important. And if there
2 was, we would report to him about it. But as for the regular reports, the
3 daily reports that we compiled, we did that ourselves and sent them on.
4 Q. In view of the fact that you did not deliver all the daily reports
5 to the commander and, as you said, this was not possible, tell me who
6 signed these reports.
7 A. All the reports arriving from the subordinate units contained so
8 much information, there were so many of these reports that had me
9 submitted them all to the commander he would have been able to do nothing
10 else but read those reports. That would have been impossible. We had to
11 write a concise summary of what was in those reports, and then we would
12 sign that at first. Later on that was changed and a duty operations
13 officer was appointed and then he signed the reports.
14 Q. Mr. Jusufspahic, tell me please, you said that first you
15 established a packet communication with the supreme command regardless of
16 the fact of who signed the document at first. Whose name and title were
17 at the bottom of the documents sent by the package communication?
18 A. Usually -- no not usually, always the name was Enver
19 Hadzihasanovic, and very often it said "SR," meaning he signed it in his
20 own hand.
21 Q. If the superior command or the organ to which something was send
22 by a package communication and they received the document on which the
23 name Enver Hadzihasanovic had been typed, did this mean that Enver
24 Hadzihasanovic had actually signed the document?
25 A. No, it doesn't because they would get his name but not his
Page 13999
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 14000
1 signature by this kind of communication. We would know who had signed it
2 but they wouldn't.
3 Q. In view of everything you have just said, in this bundle of
4 documents I have just shown you, would you please open to the second part
5 which says "Operations and Training Organ," and would you please look at
6 document P403. In response to my question you said that one of the first
7 documents was a document where certain tasks were assigned to the
8 subordinate units. Tell me, please, if you look at this document is this
9 one of the documents assigning the tasks you have just mentioned, or is
10 this document referring to something else?
11 A. This is one of the first documents issued by the corps command,
12 and it designates the zones of responsibility of the various units. It's
13 one of the first documents that the corps sent to its subordinate units.
14 Q. Mr. Jusufspahic, what was the role of the operations and training
15 organ in preparing this and similar documents referring to combat
16 activities or areas of combat responsibility of certain units? Did you
17 play any role in all this?
18 A. Yes. We had to prepare all the elements the commander needed in
19 order to issue such an order. We had to collect the information about the
20 units. We even had to suggest to him how this order could be written.
21 Q. In view of this role of yours, tell me please, at any time was the
22 entire territory ever established as the zone of responsibility of the 3rd
23 Corps, or did you ever prepare a document whereby the corps took over
24 power -- took control over the entire territory?
25 A. No. I'm sure that there is no such document referring to the
Page 14001
1 corps, that the corps was responsible for the entire territory. But as
2 for this document here, it refers to the zones or areas of defence
3 connected to the line of defence. We didn't tell the commander that he
4 was the main man in that zone. Everything was subordinated to the line of
5 defence. So his area was designated with the two points to his left and
6 right, referring to defence.
7 Q. Tell me, at that time were civilian authorities functioning in the
8 same area as the area of defence of the 3rd Corps?
9 A. Yes. There was so-called War Presidencies, there was the Ministry
10 of the Interior, whatever they were called; the civilian police. They had
11 all the roles of government. The War Presidency took on the role of the
12 government executive or assembly or something like that.
13 Q. Mr. Jusufspahic, you said you were not properly trained and the
14 organs in the subordinate units were even more poorly trained. What was
15 the policy of the command of the 3rd Corps in view of the training of you
16 and superior commands? And if you took any measures, what measures did
17 you take to improve the training?
18 A. The position of the commander was that training was a priority.
19 He repeated that from day one, from the first briefing. He told us that
20 we should work as we went, that officers should be trained in order to be
21 able to respond to tasks at hand. And we took all the possible measures
22 to train operations officers in lower-ranking units, because we saw that
23 people could not cope and that's what we did as we went along. Very often
24 we would invite some people from the lower-ranking units to the corps to
25 be trained.
Page 14002
1 Q. Can you please look at document number 2, the following document.
2 Mr. Jusufspahic, are you familiar with this document? Does this document
3 reflect the way people were trained in order to make up an army in the
4 given conditions?
5 A. I am very familiar with this document. The tasks that are listed
6 here are to take stock of the troops, of the weapons, this we did all the
7 time. We took stock of our units and we took measures accordingly. And
8 this is our attempt to analyse the situation in the units in order to see
9 what had to be done in order to improve things.
10 Q. You said that some of the reports were signed either by you or
11 later on by operative officer on duty. Can you please look at document
12 number 4. The date is 18 June 1993. Do you recognise this document? Do
13 you know the person who drafted it and who signed it? The document is
14 number 4.
15 A. Yes, okay. I am familiar with the document. This is a regular
16 command report to the staff of the command. This was drafted in June
17 1993, and a duty operations officer was I. Obviously I can't remember
18 every single sentence, but this is how I did it. This is my handwriting.
19 I remember that this is how our combat reports were written, and it was
20 not just I who did it.
21 Q. This document that was sent in mid-1993, does it reflect any
22 changes or improvements in the way reports were drafted with regard to
23 what you saw at the beginning?
24 A. At the beginning things were erratic. We did not know ourselves
25 how things should be done. Later on an institution [as interpreted] was
Page 14003
1 established and it was called a duty operations officer, and it was said
2 that every duty operations officer should sign their report. And here you
3 can see my name because I was the duty operations officer on the day. The
4 officers affiliated with the command were duty operations officers, and
5 they were the ones who signed those reports. And this is certainly an
6 improvement.
7 Q. Mr. Jusufspahic, regardless of the efforts you made, did you still
8 notice that there were more or less problems in the subordinate units?
9 Could that have an influence on the establishment of the chain of command
10 on the part of the corps commander?
11 A. There were still problems, despite the training that we carried
12 out. The training did not involve everybody, so there were still problems
13 in reporting. For example, some reports did not arrive on time, or when
14 they did they described the events that took place a long time ago. And
15 then some people reported on particular fire being opened which was not
16 important for the corps. Or they would report on things that were
17 important but we had already learned about that thing through other
18 channels. It happened very often that people reported erroneously, even
19 the lines of defence they were manning. They would be off by several
20 kilometres. Things would change from one day to another, and they failed
21 to record that properly.
22 Q. When you observed those problems, did you react? Did you send any
23 notification of that to the subordinate units? I believe that we issued
24 an order or some sort of enactment in which we warned them how reports
25 should be written, because the wrong reporting could have terrible
Page 14004
1 consequences because we didn't know the real situation. I believe that we
2 either issued an order or we retrained some of the people.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the record the document
4 was P160.
5 Q. And now can you look at the documents number 5 and 6. First can
6 you look at document number 5. This is P271. Tell me, are you familiar
7 with this document? Does it reflect exactly what you have just described
8 for us, namely your efforts to observe and rectify problems that you faced
9 with regard to your subordinate units?
10 A. I'm familiar with this document. I think that I might have been
11 involved in its drafting. Us operative officers had a biggest bone to
12 pick with those people who drafted bad reports, and this is a letter that
13 we sent to all the subordinate units explaining in great detail what was
14 wrong with the reports. But despite that, things did not improve that
15 much even after that.
16 Q. Can you please look at document number 6. This is P867. Can you
17 please focus on items 2 and 3. And can you tell us why was the
18 appropriate reporting important for the establishment of the normal chain
19 of command at the level of a command such as a corps command? Are you
20 familiar with this document? Do these items reflect the things that you
21 have just testified about?
22 A. This is just one in a series of documents. There were more of
23 such documents speaking about the importance of training. Other officers
24 and other organs struggle to train their subordinate troops. This is just
25 one of the documents requesting better training, which would ultimately
Page 14005
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 14006
1 serve the interests of the entire command.
2 Q. Can you please tell us, you have often signed those documents that
3 were addressed to the staff of this frame [as interpreted] command and the
4 commander did not see every of those reports. Who was it who decided
5 which facts would be presented to the commander among those that had
6 arrived from any of the superior -- subordinate commands?
7 A. At the beginning, it was us, those who worked in the service and
8 received those reports. That was at the beginning, the operative officers
9 did that. The commander of the organ, if he was there, or somebody else.
10 Later on it was the duty operations officer who did that. He would take a
11 report from operative groups and if he had the time to do that, he could
12 dwell upon those reports a bit longer. And sometimes he would just copy
13 the sentences that he found in the reports of the operative group.
14 Q. Mr. Jusufspahic, who was it who decided what relevant facts would
15 be submitted in the reports to the supreme command staff? Which of the
16 facts from the subordinate command reports were sent to the supreme
17 command staff and who decided on that?
18 A. It was often the deputy commander or sometimes the commander
19 himself, the chief of staff, their assistants. Whatever was sent
20 regularly, it was us, duty operations officers, who did that.
21 Q. Let's move on to a different topic. You have told us that you
22 started working and learning on the job. In January, there were some
23 combat activities. Did you in the operations centre have any information
24 relative to the combat operations that took place in January? If that was
25 the case, can you please share that information with us.
Page 14007
1 A. In January, one of the first combat operations that the corps was
2 involved in was when we received alarming reports from the sector of Vakuf
3 and Novi Travnik about the fighting that was going on there. We received
4 such reports. We looked at the overall situation and we tried to see how
5 we could help those units there. This was our main preoccupation in the
6 month of January.
7 Q. Did there come a time in January when you started receiving
8 information from the areas that were closer to Zenica, closer than the
9 ones where the combat operations were already underway in Gornji Travnik
10 and Vakuf? Did you start receiving some information about the HVO forces
11 coming closer to an area closer to Zenica?
12 A. Yes. We received a report from the Busovaca sector, from Kacin,
13 about fighting going on there.
14 Q. How did you receive reports at that time? How did they reach you
15 in the operations centre? By what ways and by what means did you receive
16 them?
17 A. From the brigade we received reports through the regular
18 communications means which were rather poor. First we would receive
19 regular reports on the activities and movements of the HVO troops; later
20 on we received different reports from different sides. The initial
21 reports were those ones that we received from the brigade.
22 Q. To what extent did you in the operations centre pay attention to
23 these reports? Was there any link between those reports and the
24 strategically important facilities or features in that area?
25 A. As soon as we received the reports from Busovaca on the movements
Page 14008
1 of the troops, not from the town of Busovaca but from the sector where our
2 brigade was deployed, and as soon as there was fighting in that area, as
3 soon as there was movement of forces, we immediately started thinking
4 about a very important facility which was the Lasva junction. We tried to
5 protect that facility even when I was a member of the TO of Zenica. It
6 was a very important feature. It was the gateway to Zenica.
7 Q. Given the importance of that facility, did you in the operations
8 and training centre, which was the body that pointed to the commander what
9 the combat situation was, did you suggest to the commander or did you --
10 do you know whether the commander did anything, did he take any measures
11 in order to prevent the Lasva junction from falling into any jeopardy?
12 A. I did not write those orders, but I know that an order was issued
13 to secure all the roads in the area including the junction. The only road
14 towards the free territory went via Lasva and on, and there were orders
15 issued in order to secure those roads, to keep them passable.
16 Q. Do you know personally whether any sort of order was issued
17 ordering that units should be used in combat? Was an order issued to
18 attack villages in the vicinity of the Lasva junction?
19 A. As far as I know, such orders were not issued.
20 Q. Tell me please, Mr. Jusufspahic, did there come a time when you
21 start receiving -- when you started receiving information or reports in
22 the operations centre about combat taking place in Lasva or in Dusina?
23 A. The first reports that we received from our units in the sector of
24 Kacun and Busovaca spoke about movements. However, after that, after
25 those regular reports, so to speak - they were not regular reports, they
Page 14009
1 were interim reports, I suppose - we started receiving some other reports,
2 not only from the command of one brigade, all of a sudden people started
3 coming to the command with some verbal news about what was going on in the
4 area. This is not customary, but this was what was going on. One piece
5 of information followed another, and all that was rather alarming. Very
6 often this was controversial and we didn't have the real insight into the
7 situation; we didn't know what was going on.
8 Q. Did there come a time when you received information about some
9 people being killed in that area?
10 A. Yes. Let me put it this way: When the information is not timely
11 and when you hear rumours, the first thing I heard, the first thing I
12 remember is the killing of a commander. His name was Camdzic. He was my
13 neighbour and I learned he had been killed. Again, I learned that from
14 some sources that are not official, regular sources.
15 Q. As you were working as an officer in the army and there was
16 combat, was it usual for different reports to arrive in the course of
17 combat and only when the combat was over was the situation summed up, or
18 did you have to have precise information at every moment as to what was
19 going on on the ground?
20 A. We had to have precise information for our commander, however it
21 was very difficult to obtain it. We had to try and check to see what the
22 real truth was. But as I told you, a lower-level commander would arrive,
23 for example, with some news and we had to check it, we had to find ways
24 and means of learning what was going on; that's how it was.
25 Q. Tell me, in the end, at the end of a day or on the following day
Page 14010
1 did you deliver all the reports to the commander? Do you remember that?
2 A. I remember that in the evening we were asked to write a summary of
3 the situation and brief him. We would collect everything that we had
4 checked, and I know that we delivered all the reports we received to him.
5 Q. If you can recall the reports you received in various ways, did
6 any of the reports you received in the operations centre and passed on to
7 the commander indicate that a crime might have been committed in the area,
8 that there were grounds to suspect that?
9 A. No. These reports did not contain anything like that. We found
10 nothing that might lead us to suspect such things had happened.
11 Q. Thank you. You mentioned a short while ago that news arrived
12 about fighting in Busovaca. Tell me, do you know whether at a certain
13 point in time there were certain agreements about the conflict in Busovaca
14 and were you assigned any task in connection with these negotiations?
15 A. Yes. We learned - everybody - knew this, that an agreement had
16 been signed between the HVO and the army about a cease-fire and that a
17 commission was being established to monitor this.
18 Q. Were any meetings held in connection with this and were you
19 involved in any way with the work of this commission?
20 A. Yes, a meeting was held in Kakanj, I think in the hall of the
21 Termoelektrana company. There were representatives of the HVO. As far as
22 I recall there was Blaskic, we were there, our commander, and so was I. At
23 that meeting operative details were agreed upon concerning the
24 implementation of the cease-fire.
25 Q. Did you personally receive a task from the commander?
Page 14011
1 A. I had already received an order that I was to be one of the
2 members of that commission; the others were Serif Kadric and the chief of
3 the commission was Merdan, the deputy commander. At that meeting, and I
4 remember it well, the commander initiated the following, that this
5 commission that was to go out on to the ground to implement the fire was
6 to carry certain orders with them, and he asked me to write these down on
7 the spot. And I was taken aback and wondered how I was to do that. And
8 he said, Take that to the representatives of the HVO and as soon as they
9 agree to it, I'll sign it. So we drew up the order on the spot about the
10 removal of the checkpoints, the passage of convoys, the return of the
11 population to their homes, and so on and so forth.
12 Q. Mr. Jusufspahic, I will ask you to look at part 3 referring to the
13 joint commission and to look at all these documents from 1 to 8 and tell
14 me whether you recognise these documents.
15 A. Let me find it, please.
16 Q. This is the third part, III, joint commissions. Would you please
17 look at the documents numbered 1 to 8. Do you recognise these documents?
18 A. Yes, I do. I drew them up.
19 Q. So I take it that these are orders initiated by
20 Commander Hadzihasanovic and later on signed by Commander Blaskic?
21 A. Yes. This is what we agreed in Kakanj, in the Termoelektrana
22 building.
23 Q. Tell me, what was the attitude of Commander Hadzihasanovic toward
24 the implementation of these orders? Was this a purely formal acceptance
25 or did he demand that this be strictly respected and complied with?
Page 14012
1 A. He asked that this be strictly complied with. When he initiated
2 these orders he simply decided that a stop should be put to all this.
3 Q. Would you please look at number 9, please. That's P140.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Does this document reflect in your view the attitude of Commander
6 Hadzihasanovic as to these orders were to be implemented?
7 A. Working in the commission, we were duty-bound to draw up reports
8 about what was going on and about the problems that we encountered. This
9 is a warning to all the commands of the brigades, and they were instructed
10 to make it possible for us to do whatever we had to on the ground. This
11 shows that he had decided firmly that the conflict should be ended.
12 Q. Mr. Jusufspahic, what was the main task -- well, the main task is
13 stated here, but how did you actually implement it?
14 A. Well, you know, in the beginning it was very difficult, very, very
15 difficult. There was a lot of mistrust among the local commanders on the
16 ground, especially among the troops, and we spent a lot of time trying to
17 convince various people that the other side would do the same. This is
18 something they found hard to believe. So it was a very difficult job,
19 especially to start with.
20 Q. Apart from the implementation of these orders on the cease-fire,
21 did the commission deal with any other issues and who served these issues
22 on you, so to speak, if you dealt with them?
23 A. Let me explain how we worked. We worked in teams. There were
24 three representatives of the army and three representatives of the HVO in
25 these commissions. In the morning on arrival at that house, the Hotel
Page 14013
1 Tisa in Busovaca near the petrol pump, that's where we were, the chief of
2 the European monitors, I think it was Thorpin [phoen], he would read the
3 protest about the cease-fire. Then we would establish teams and go out on
4 the ground to calm down the situation, but that was not our only task. In
5 the commission we also received other requests from ordinary people.
6 Because when people heard that there was some sort of commission there
7 with the HVO, we started receiving requests that had nothing to do with
8 combat activities. For example, that tank that had been captured by the
9 HVO should be sent back. There were even requests from embassies,
10 individuals, humanitarian organisations, all kinds of requests.
11 Q. Do you remember any requests by embassies?
12 A. Yes. I think it was the Iranian embassy as far as I can recall.
13 There were others as well, but this one I remember because these people
14 had been taken prisoner, at least that's what it said in the protest by
15 HVO forces, and they had been brought to Kaonik prison in Busovaca. The
16 Iranian embassy asked that we should check this.
17 Q. Would you please look at the document numbered 12.
18 A. Yes. This protest.
19 Q. Yes, yes, the protest.
20 A. Yes. This is one of the documents that the commission received.
21 Q. Tell me, please, this request by the Iranian embassy or by
22 humanitarian organisations or the one that arrived through the 3rd Corps
23 and the mentioned foreigners, will you please tell us what sort of
24 foreigners were these? Who were these foreigners that they were searching
25 for?
Page 14014
1 A. Our information was that these were humanitarian workers who had
2 arrived with aid or with money. That was all the information we had.
3 Q. And these protests and requests, how did the representatives of
4 the HVO respond to these? Did they admit that they had arrested these
5 foreigners?
6 A. No. They would not even admit that they had captured the two
7 people who are in Kaonik. They refused to admit that these people were
8 prisoners at all. I know two European monitors went to that prison to
9 check this. They denied that this happened at all.
10 Q. While you were working in this commission did you ever hear about
11 Mujahedin or did you only discuss these persons as foreign humanitarian
12 workers, as you describe them?
13 A. They were not Mujahedin. I did not hear that expression at the
14 time. These were humanitarian workers. Some people even said, we're not
15 doing anything to get this aid to reach us, they're carrying money,
16 driving good cars, and we were not doing anything to get these people to
17 help us. That's what people said. I didn't hear the word "Mujahedin"
18 being used.
19 Q. When was the first time you personally encountered the expression
20 "Mujahedin," and what duty were you performing at the time?
21 A. The first time I came across that word, that expression, which I
22 didn't even know what it meant, was as a member of the commission in
23 Vitez, because the commission moved from Busovaca to Vitez. And that's
24 when I heard this expression.
25 Q. Can you explain to Their Honours on what occasion you heard this
Page 14015
1 expression and from whom.
2 A. As the commission moved from Busovaca where the situation was
3 under some sort of control to Vitez, where things were developing in a
4 different direction and that was the reason for the move, the events in
5 Ahmici took place, you know, the massacre in Ahmici. We didn't do that in
6 the commission for a time, but then the European monitors insisted and I
7 think that one of the first meetings after the work of the commission was
8 re-established, I heard this word from Nakic, the word Mujahedin. We
9 heard about an event that had happened in the village of Miletici, and
10 that morning Nakic arrived very upset. And he said, While we are sitting
11 here working, such things are happening up there. And I know they went to
12 that village at once, Miletici, and upon their return he himself said that
13 this had been done by Mujahedin who had entered the village.
14 Q. During that meeting of the commission or later on, did anyone in
15 any way connect the event in Miletici to members of the BH army or was
16 what Nakic said all that you learned about this event there?
17 A. No, at least not as far as I could tell. I was there and neither
18 the European monitors nor the HVO connected this to soldiers of the BH
19 army. They didn't tell us, These are members of your army there, then, at
20 the commission.
21 Q. Thank you. Tell me please, in connection with Ahmici, as a member
22 of the commission did you have any personal knowledge about what had
23 happened in Ahmici?
24 A. When we moved to Vitez from Busovaca, we continued our regular
25 work. I don't know how long this went on, but we went up there every day
Page 14016
1 on a regular basis and went home in the evening. One morning we didn't go
2 to that meeting. I saw in the corps that there was a kind of state of
3 emergency, that there was something going on, that we wouldn't be going
4 that day, and that's when I learned about the massacre in the corps. We
5 didn't go that morning. After the European monitors insisted that we
6 continue our work to prevent further escalation of the conflict, about a
7 week later, it might have been more or less, I'm not sure exactly how long
8 it was, we were very angry in the corps. We went to Vitez, and when we
9 arrived there, a team was set up to go to Ahmici and I was part of that
10 team. I think that the member of the joint commission for the HVO was a
11 man called Tomo. I don't know his last name. And there was a European
12 monitor and Bob Stewart, the commander of BritBat. We all went to the
13 village in two vehicles.
14 Q. And what did you find there, briefly?
15 A. It was terrible. It had all been burnt down; it was all gutted.
16 I know that there was a house where the basement was still smoldering. A
17 BritBat soldier found something that was small and charred. He was very
18 upset and then I realised it was the corpse of a child. He couldn't stand
19 it. He went out. And this made a deep impression on me.
20 Q. Mr. Jusufspahic, in the operations centre, what information or
21 what data did you keep on your subordinated units?
22 A. Just give me a minute, please. In the operations centre we were
23 supposed to have as many data on the subordinate units as possible, as
24 many. Whatever we could collect we had to collect, and this all served
25 for the commander's use on -- commander's decision on the use of these
Page 14017
1 units. And we did what we could.
2 Q. While you were in the operations centre, did you ever receive
3 operation that in our units, the units of the 3rd Corps, there are also
4 individuals who were foreigners or Mujahedin? While you were in the
5 operations centre, up until mid-August, 1993, did you ever receive such
6 information?
7 A. I'm not aware of any such information. The information that we
8 had on the troops, armament, equipment, among all this information I did
9 not come across information like this.
10 Q. Since you inspected the ground, did you ever face the presence of
11 foreigners in the area where the units of the 3rd Corps were active?
12 A. Yes. One of my roles was to inspect some of the units, and that's
13 where I encountered this problem.
14 Q. What was your task? Which units did you visit, and what did you
15 see there?
16 A. Towards the end of July or maybe mid-July, I remember that the
17 strawberries were ripe when we were inspecting the ground. My task was to
18 inspect a unit in the sector of the 312th Brigade, the so-called Karaula
19 Battalion in the area of Bijelo Bucje. We were supposed to assist the
20 commander at his own request because his battalion was on a very important
21 axis. He wanted to organise defence in a forest; the commander didn't
22 know how to do that. I went to inspect; I visited this unit. The chief
23 of artillery was with me. He stayed with the artillery unit of the 312th
24 Brigade, and I went uphill. And I worked out the problem with the
25 commander. He helped him to organise defence in the forest. I told him
Page 14018
1 where he should lay ambushes and where his points of defence should be.
2 He was very happy.
3 At the end of every visit, my last question is: Are there any
4 other questions? Are there any more problems or any more requests for the
5 corps command? I was already at the end of my visit, and just
6 matter-of-factly he mentioned this, but not as a problem. He just
7 mentioned a group of soldiers, some 30 of them. He said "Arabs." He said
8 he didn't know who they were or what they were.
9 Q. After that visit, did you visit any other units and did you face a
10 similar problem there?
11 A. Yes. When I returned from my visit to the 312th, I visited the
12 command of one of the units of the 306th Mountain Brigade. I spoke to the
13 chief of staff, the commander of the 1st Battalion, I believe that it was
14 the 1st Battalion, and the operations officers from the OG Bosanska
15 Krajina. I visited the area of Ljuta Greda. We paid a visit to the
16 battalion, we inspected their line of fire. We issued orders how the line
17 of defence should be amended and we returned to the battalion command.
18 And again my question was: Are there any other requests? Are there any
19 other questions? And then the commander whose name was Lubenovic, he was
20 the commander of the 1st Battalion, told us that he had a problem with his
21 fighters leaving for other units. His line of defence was very stretched
22 and he was afraid that he could not be able to organise his shifts if the
23 problem continued. He mentioned that there was some foreigners recruiting
24 his fighters for themselves. And this was again when foreigners were
25 mentioned in front of me.
Page 14019
1 Q. What did you do next?
2 A. The commander always told us that whenever we visited units, that
3 we should not bring him problems, that we should try and see what we could
4 do ourselves. I asked to be taken to the spot, to the place where they
5 were. I wanted to see whether there was anything I could do on the spot
6 instead of bringing problems back to my commander. When I was taken to
7 that place, there was a mosque in Mehurici and from the mosque you go
8 through a little forest; this is where I was taken and I was shown the
9 place where they were. And it is then that I saw a gate, something like a
10 gate, and a fence that had existed maybe even before. There was an armed
11 soldier standing at the gate. He was not wearing our uniform.
12 Q. Did you enter?
13 A. We tried to enter. It -- this soldier was told that an officer
14 from the corps command wanted to enter, but he would not allow us to come
15 closer. He started taking his rifle off his shoulder, and I turned around
16 with the other officers and we went back.
17 Q. I will now ask you --
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have some ten
19 more questions for the witness tomorrow. I would like to show him two
20 more documents, and I believe that my examination-in-chief will be
21 finished very quickly tomorrow.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will continue tomorrow.
23 Sir, you will have to come back tomorrow at 3.00. Please be at
24 the disposal of the Tribunal to be present here around 3.00 for the
25 beginning of tomorrow's session. As you have already been told by the
Page 14020
1 Defence, your testimony will be finished very quickly tomorrow. From now
2 on, you're not supposed to speak to any of the parties because you have
3 taken the solemn declaration, which means that you are no longer in the
4 position to talk to the Defence.
5 We will adjourn and we will resume tomorrow at 3.00.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 12th day of
8 January, 2005, at 3.00 p.m.
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25