070911ED

Page 8253

1 Tuesday, 11 September 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness appeared by videolink]

5 --- Upon commencing at 10.35 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Mr. Registrar, would you

7 please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. The curtains are down.

11 That is done in order to make the face distortion really effective.

12 Therefore, though it looks as if we are in closed session, we are not.

13 Due to technical problems this morning, we couldn't start any

14 earlier. This raises an issue as to whether to continue with the present

15 witness or with the next witness who has a keen interest in finishing his

16 testimony today. I was informed that the parties would not disagree on

17 interposing the next witness. Since I see no reaction I take it that the

18 information is correct. That means that we first have to explain to

19 Witness 65 that we'll move on and that he'll be on hold for a while, that

20 we would then hear the parties on an application for protective measures

21 for the next witness to be called and then we could continue with the next

22 witness also a witness to be examined through a videolink.

23 Could we, with all the protective measures in place, establish the

24 videolink with Belgrade?

25 Yes, good morning, Witness 65. Can you hear me? Can you see me?

Page 8254

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes I can.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 65, we had quite a lot of technical problems

3 this morning in The Hague which caused this late start. We even have a

4 bigger problem, that is that the witness who would come after you has to

5 leave today, which has caused us to decide that we would at this moment

6 interrupt your testimony and that we would continue with you either later

7 today or tomorrow. That certainly will be inconvenient to you.

8 Unfortunately, we had no choice to decide otherwise. Do you understand

9 this?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I tried to explain to you that we have, due to these

12 technical problems, that we have to interrupt your testimony at this

13 moment and that another witness, who has -- who has to leave today, gets

14 priority to give his testimony, and then we would continue with you after

15 this witness has finished most likely today, that we would continue your

16 examination after that. So then Ms. Gustafson would continue to put

17 questions to you, and then Defence counsel would put questions to you as

18 well. But do you now understand what I just told you, that you have to

19 wait for a while?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: So would you keep yourself available this morning so

22 that if we would restart later this morning, that you would be available

23 and if not, that we would tomorrow continue with your examination. So

24 either later today or tomorrow.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay. Whatever suits you. No

Page 8255

1 problem for me. If you want, I can continue today or tomorrow.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We don't know yet whether it will be later

3 today or tomorrow. The representative of the Registry who is sitting next

4 to you will inform you about the progress we are making. I would like to

5 thank you very much for your flexibility at this moment, and the Chamber

6 is grateful that you're willing to adapt to our problems. I again

7 instruct you that you should meanwhile not speak with anyone about your

8 testimony, the testimony you'd given yesterday or the testimony still to

9 be given later today or tomorrow. Is that understood?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then the representative of the Registry in Belgrade,

12 I'd like to inform you that due to some technical matters, the change of

13 interpreters teams, that we need to take a short break. We will take a

14 break for, Mr. Registrar, is my assumption right that it would take a

15 couple of minutes only? Yes. After these couple of minutes, we would

16 like to start in private session with the next witness to be called in

17 order to further hear answers to questions or submissions by the parties

18 in relation to the protective measures requested in respect of this

19 witness.

20 We'll have a break, everyone is -- yes, Mr. Guy-Smith?

21 MR. GUY-SMITH: This is with regard to the next witness. There is

22 a question with regard to the issue of disclosure that might need to be

23 dealt with just quite briefly before we proceed even with the issue

24 concerning measures.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll then after the break start with your

Page 8256

1 submission on the -- what I understand to be late disclosure.

2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a break for three to five minutes.

4 --- Break taken at 10.43 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

6 [Closed session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8257

11 Pages 8257-8267 redacted. Closed session.

Page 8269

1 by the number of Witness 54.

2 Now, before you give evidence, the --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: -- Court wants to be assured that you will tell us

5 whatever is asked in full accordance with the truth. That is you tell

6 exactly how things were, that you do not add anything which is not what

7 happened, that you do not leave out anything. And in order to be assured

8 in these kinds of proceedings, the witness makes a solemn declaration. Do

9 you understand what that means? That is that you are promising us that

10 this is what you're going to do.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear? Then I do understand that the text of

13 this solemn declaration has been given to you, and I'd invite you to make

14 that solemn declaration.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

17 WITNESS: Witness 54

18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated. Ms. Ley, you

20 are going to examine the witness?

21 MS. LEY: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, questions will be put to you.

23 You have met the witness before?

24 MS. LEY: Yes, I have.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Questions will be put to you by Ms. Ley, and I

Page 8270

1 do understand that you know her already because you've seen her before.

2 (redacted)

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey?

4 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, I apologise for interrupting. With the

5 previous witness, it's my recollection you asked whether there was anybody

6 else present in the room. May I just take that one step further? As a

7 result of something I just saw as the camera swept around, it appeared to

8 me that there is some sort of glass partition there. I don't know whether

9 there is anybody else who can actually see and be seen by the witness

10 while this testimony is being taken. I would just like to have that

11 clarified.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Witness 54, I would like to know exactly who

13 there are in the room where you're in, and I'd like to ask the

14 representative of the Registry to tell us who are in the room and whether

15 there is any visual connection of that room with any other room. Don't

16 bother about it. Could the camera move or the -- yes.

17 THE VIDEOLINK REGISTRAR: Your Honours, present in the room are

18 Witness 54, a technician and myself, and the only visual connection we

19 have is with courtroom number 1.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 THE VIDEOLINK REGISTRAR: Visual and audio connection.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Nothing else. That would certainly satisfy

23 Mr. Harvey. I take it, Mr. Harvey?

24 MR. HARVEY: Of course, Your Honour, thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 54, now we come to what you came for, that is

Page 8271

1 to answer the questions, questions first to be put to you by Ms. Ley. As

2 I said you've met her before so it might be a familiar face for you on the

3 screen. Please proceed, Ms. Ley.

4 Examination by Ms. Ley:

5 (redacted)

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are at this moment in open session, Ms. Ley.

7 If you want to get the details of the witness --

8 MS. LEY: Can we move into private session, please?

9 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8272

11 Pages 8272-8273 redacted. Private session.

Page 8274

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Ms. Ley, you certainly

11 still will have in the back of your mind that identifying portions of the

12 story should be dealt with in private session. Please proceed.

13 MS. LEY:

14 Q. Witness 54, what was (redacted) doing for a living in 1998?

15 A. He worked as a car mechanic and car tire repairman.

16 Q. Was he a soldier?

17 A. No.

18 Q. What about (redacted)? Was he a soldier?

19 A. No.

20 Q. I want you to please tell the Trial Chamber about the day that you

21 saw (redacted) the last time. Can you tell us what happened, please?

22 A. Well, (redacted) from Novi Sad sent money, and (redacted)

23 (redacted) went to the post office to collect the money. We were at

24 my uncle's house, (redacted) is where we were

25 living at the time. (redacted) came to fetch me.

Page 8275

1 JUDGE ORIE: One second. We turn into private session. The

2 witness is not able to -- and since you let him tell the story on his own,

3 you are fully lacking control of what happens. We turn into private

4 session.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8276

11 Pages 8276-8281 redacted. Private session.

Page 8282

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

7 Witness 54, very good of you to come and to answer the questions

8 that have been put to you. (redacted) And I'd like to thank

9 you, and I hope that you'll be home again very soon. This concludes your

10 testimony.

11 I think we should prepare for the next witness to appear.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please --.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: There is a matter before the next witness is called

16 that I think I ought to raise, and I -- it might be an idea for us to do

17 that in private session.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then we turn into private session.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8283

11 Pages 8283-8293 redacted. Private session.

Page 8296

1 to the Trial Chamber what happened to your brother, and we appreciate your

2 patience this morning. I would just like to ask you a few additional

3 questions about some details of what happened to your brother, and I'd

4 like, if you could, to listen to my questions as carefully as you can and

5 to try to focus your answers just on the questions that I ask you, all

6 right?

7 A. Okay.

8 Q. Now, yesterday you said that the group that came and took your

9 brother arrived in seven or eight vehicles. And I'd like to ask you, were

10 you able to determine which -- were you able to determine which direction

11 the vehicles came from?

12 A. Yes. They came from the village, from Gllogjan, from that road.

13 Q. So you're saying they came to the place where you were on the road

14 coming in the -- from the direction of Gllogjan towards where you were?

15 A. Yes. That goes to Dujak and Gllogjan.

16 Q. Thank you. And now I'd like to ask you some questions about the

17 people who came and took your brother. You said that one of them was

18 wearing black clothes and had a black hood on his face. Was he the only

19 one in black clothes or -- or were there more people wearing black

20 clothes? Was it just one or was it more than one wearing black clothes?

21 A. There was only him that was wearing black clothes. There were

22 many other people present there. I couldn't count all of them.

23 Q. And you also said that the person in black clothes had a black

24 hide on his face. Was he the only one with a hood or were there others

25 who were also wearing hoods?

Page 8297

1 A. Yes. The other ones were not wearing black clothes, only he was

2 wearing black clothes.

3 Q. And do you remember anything about how any of the other ones were

4 dressed?

5 A. They were wearing civilian clothes. The other ones, I mean.

6 Q. And do you remember seeing any insignia or badges on any of the

7 people's clothes?

8 A. There weren't any.

9 Q. And were these people armed?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What kind of arms did they have?

12 A. There were automatic rifles, these kinds of guns.

13 Q. And what language did they speak?

14 A. Albanian.

15 Q. And as far as you can -- you could tell, were these people members

16 of some force or organisation?

17 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry, before the witness answers that question, an

18 evidential foundation needs to be laid. Now, certain questions have been

19 asked and certain answers have been given but to invite the witness at

20 this stage to give an answer which amounts effectively to an expression of

21 opinion, unless words were spoken or there is some other evidential

22 foundation.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson, your rather abstract question,

24 Mr. Emmerson, would like to you lay an evidentiary foundation for any

25 conclusion to be drawn, and I think it would assist the Chamber if you

Page 8298

1 would do so. Please proceed.

2 MS. GUSTAFSON:

3 Q. Witness 65, was anything said or done by these people to indicate

4 to you that they belonged to some force or organisation?

5 A. I told you last night as well about the case when they took my

6 brother to the car and they beat me black and blue, and I lost my

7 consciousness.

8 Q. I'd like you, if you could, to listen carefully to my question. I

9 asked you if these people said or did anything that indicated to you that

10 they belonged to some force or some organisation? Do you remember

11 anything that was said or done that indicated to you whether these people

12 belonged to some group?

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honour, I intend to move on to the next

17 question.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may do so. Sometimes the factual basis for

19 observations can also be established once the observations have been made.

20 I leave that up to you at this moment. Please proceed.

21 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you.

22 Q. Did you recognise any of the people that day? Did you know any of

23 them?

24 A. No. I didn't. I couldn't recognise anyone. They took my brother

25 to the car. I was lying on the ground. My wife poured some water on me

Page 8299

1 because I was unconscious.

2 Q. And you said one of them -- one of the men was looking for your

3 cousin. Was anything said or done to indicate to you why they were

4 looking for your cousin?

5 A. They didn't ask me the way you're putting it. They surrounded me

6 and they were swearing and shouting, "Why are you here? You are siding

7 with the Serbs. You are Maxhupis, gypsies." These were the words they

8 were saying.

9 Q. When they said you were siding with the Serbs, what did you

10 understand that to mean? Did you understand that to be a reference to

11 something that you had done?

12 A. No, no. I don't know what they were thinking. I don't know what

13 was in their mind. I did not have any links with Serbs or Albanians,

14 never. And I never had any problems.

15 Q. And you also said yesterday that the men pushed your wife and

16 swore at her. Do you remember the words they used when they swore at your

17 wife, what they said to her?

18 A. Yes. Yes. They said to her, "Maxhupis, Gipsy," because the way

19 it happened was like this, they wanted to take me away and my wife

20 screamed and was holding on to me, and other people were asking them not

21 to take me away, and then they beat me. I remained down on the ground.

22 Q. And so -- so you were beaten and you were on the ground and you

23 have also told us that they put your brother in a car, and they took him

24 away. And I'd like to understand this from you. Did you actually see

25 with your own eyes your brother being driven away, or did you not see them

Page 8300

1 drive away with your own eyes?

2 A. I did see him being put into the car and being hit with a rifle's

3 butt, and he was inside the car and then they drove him away. I could see

4 them very well. I couldn't get up, though.

5 Q. So you saw them drive away. Did they drive away the same way they

6 had come or a different way?

7 A. They went in the same direction, from where they came.

8 Q. Now, you've said that when the men arrived, they asked you where

9 your cousin was and that you said you didn't know. And then eventually

10 they took your brother --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did they say -- did they say anything to you to indicate why they

13 were taking your brother away?

14 A. They took him because of my cousin. My father told me that he had

15 heard this being said. (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 Q. You said your father told you that he had heard this being said?

18 A. Yes. He had heard that.

19 Q. Did your father tell you he heard it that day? Or is this

20 something your father heard later on?

21 A. That day, on the same day, while all these things were going on

22 and the noise and everything. He was not close to me. He was sitting a

23 little farther away. He was there. And now he's not alive.

24 Q. I just want to clarify the last answer. Is this something your

25 father heard said that day by the men who took your brother? Is that what

Page 8301

1 you're saying?

2 A. That day, yes, that day.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, you've said that you didn't recognise any of the

4 men. Did you ever learn anything later about who any of these men were?

5 A. I couldn't recognise anything. And I cannot tell you today who it

6 was. I would like to know today who killed him and why. He was young.

7 He was only 18 when he was taken away. He would be 24, 23 or 24 today.

8 Q. Thank you. And after that day when he was taken away, did you

9 ever see your brother again?

10 A. No, I didn't.

11 Q. And what about other people in your family? Do you know if anyone

12 in your family ever saw him again?

13 A. You mean when he was taken away?

14 Q. After he was taken away, did anyone in your family ever see him

15 again after he was taken away?

16 A. No, no one saw him again.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, there is just one more thing I'd like to ask you

18 about on a different topic, and it's about the time before you left your

19 home village, the village you grew up in, and I'd like to remind you not

20 to mention the name of that village.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When you were living in your home village in 1998, before you

23 left, had you heard of Ramush Haradinaj?

24 A. No. I personally hadn't heard. I didn't know what he was. I

25 didn't know anything about the war. I don't know. We could hear some

Page 8310

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 65, these were the last questions put to you

6 by Ms. Gustafson. I'd like to thank you very much for coming to the

7 studio from where you gave your testimony. You've answered all the

8 questions put to you by the parties and by the Bench. I wish you a safe

9 trip home again.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like to drink some water.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. You can take off your earphones. This

12 concludes your testimony. Thank you again.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you to you.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then the -- we do not need the videolink any more.

16 Before I invite the Prosecution to call its next witness, I first

17 would like to invite the parties to look what portions of today's evidence

18 can be made public. I take it that you'll pass this message to Ms. Ley as

19 well, Mr. Di Fazio. If the parties can agree on that, that would be

20 preferable. The Chamber will then see.

21 Before we continue I think there are some -- let me say it this

22 way, there is no agreement yet on who to call next, that is the witness

23 whose testimony was interrupted last week or whether it would be the

24 witness Visnjic, but before we discuss this matter, that's at least the

25 information I received, that -- I got an e-mail in which it is reported to

Page 8311

1 the Chamber, and I'll just read one line. "I spoke with Mr. Re. He's

2 insisting on putting Milan Visnjic before" and then the name of the

3 witness whose testimony was interrupted last week. Now, we have made

4 quite some progress. I do not know whether there is any issue remaining

5 there but that depends on -- because the witness whose testimony was

6 interrupted is, I think, invited to come back on Thursday.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: That's the Prosecution's clear understanding and

8 expectation. That's the arrangement that is in place as I understand it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's then clear. How much time would we

10 need for Mr. Visnjic if we would start with him now right away.

11 MR. EMMERSON: Just to clarify, I made some inquiries with the

12 Prosecution yesterday, and my understanding is that Mr. Visnjic is

13 travelling today and is therefore not available to testify until tomorrow.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: That is correct. I can confirm, and I apologise.

15 I should have alerted you sooner. We find ourselves in the position in

16 the position of not being able to produce any witnesses for the last 15

17 minutes. What Mr. Emmerson just told you is correct.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Let's take it as a rule that if one party tells us

19 something about very practical matters, that unless I hear from the other

20 party, it's taken to be correct. So therefore, now, how much time would

21 we need for the travelling witness, Mr. Visnjic? Tomorrow?

22 MR. EMMERSON: I think at the moment it's a matter for the

23 Prosecution. Your Honour knows the position that we've taken in relation

24 to that witness which is that the circumstances in which the material

25 comes to be produced disentitled and disabled the defence from effective

Page 8312

1 cross-examination, so depending upon what if any evidence the Prosecution

2 intends to elicit from him in chief I would have expect the

3 cross-examination to be short. But there has been a certain amount of

4 recent disclosure which I will need to look at overnight, and I reserve my

5 position. We certainly won't take the whole of tomorrow.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll be handling that witness, and although I

8 haven't fully prepared my examination-in-chief, I don't expect it to be

9 substantial by any means at all. I would have thought that probably about

10 half an hour maximum would suffice.

11 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore there would be a fair expectation, I'm

12 also looking at other Defence counsel, that tomorrow would do for the

13 witness Visnjic?

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Most definitely tomorrow would do for the witness

15 Visnjic.

16 JUDGE ORIE: That would mean for the next witness that we do not

17 have to get in touch with VWS about travelling arrangements. We could

18 just stick to Thursday, that witness to continue his testimony.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: That's what the Prosecution completely envisages.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's good to know. Are there any other

21 procedural matters, since we have 30 minutes left?

22 MR. EMMERSON: There are in fact a number of exhibit issues that

23 need to be dealt with.

24 JUDGE ORIE: The problem is I have not prepared for this

25 situation, as a matter of fact.

Page 8313

1 MR. EMMERSON: I was going to suggest we perhaps deal with those

2 at a convenient moment, tomorrow perhaps.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if there any time left tomorrow. We will

4 prepare for that. Is there any other matter to be raised at this moment?

5 MR. DI FAZIO: No, only that I'll raise this issue of procedural

6 matters with my colleagues, as well, and that we'll notify the Defence and

7 Trial Chamber of what those issues are, if in turn that could occur, I

8 think it would help to expedite business if anything else arises. That's

9 all.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we --

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, any matter you would like to raise?

13 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, I just wanted to inquire through you,

14 if I may, whether we have any report from Mr. Re or any of the

15 representatives of the Prosecution about the late disclosure matter that

16 was raised earlier and on which Mr. Re was going to get back to us?

17 Perhaps that could wait until tomorrow.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: No. No is the answer, if Your Honours please, but

19 we'll attend to the matter and if the matter will be investigated, we'll

20 be able to either provide an answer this afternoon by way of e-mail or

21 address the matter tomorrow.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Just for me, were you entirely exclusively addressing

23 the matter of the statement being disclosed lately or also about other

24 disclosure matters? Because it was not entirely clear to me whether there

25 was any talking about facts, whether there was any other disclosure that

Page 8314

1 needed attention.

2 MR. HARVEY: It was that specific statement and its late

3 disclosure.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Specifically. Then, I mean it has no -- it's

5 an important matter, but not necessarily to be dealt with at this very

6 moment. Of course, the Chamber would like to be kept abreast of the

7 reasons why.

8 MR. HARVEY: That's the only reason I mentioned it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to the parties how to inform the Chamber

10 about that, although it should not be too informal. It should be

11 somewhere on the record.

12 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then we adjourn and -- until tomorrow, the 12th of

14 September, 9.00, Courtroom I.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.35 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 12th day of

17 September, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.