Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8253

 1                          Tuesday, 11 September 2007

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness appeared by videolink]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 10.35 a.m.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.  Mr. Registrar, would you

 7    please call the case.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9    IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  The curtains are down.

11    That is done in order to make the face distortion really effective.

12    Therefore, though it looks as if we are in closed session, we are not.

13            Due to technical problems this morning, we couldn't start any

14    earlier.  This raises an issue as to whether to continue with the present

15    witness or with the next witness who has a keen interest in finishing his

16    testimony today.  I was informed that the parties would not disagree on

17    interposing the next witness.  Since I see no reaction I take it that the

18    information is correct.  That means that we first have to explain to

19    Witness 65 that we'll move on and that he'll be on hold for a while, that

20    we would then hear the parties on an application for protective measures

21    for the next witness to be called and then we could continue with the next

22    witness also a witness to be examined through a videolink.

23            Could we, with all the protective measures in place, establish the

24    videolink with Belgrade?

25            Yes, good morning, Witness 65.  Can you hear me?  Can you see me?


Page 8254

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes I can.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Witness 65, we had quite a lot of technical problems

 3    this morning in The Hague which caused this late start.  We even have a

 4    bigger problem, that is that the witness who would come after you has to

 5    leave today, which has caused us to decide that we would at this moment

 6    interrupt your testimony and that we would continue with you either later

 7    today or tomorrow.  That certainly will be inconvenient to you.

 8    Unfortunately, we had no choice to decide otherwise.  Do you understand

 9    this?

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  I tried to explain to you that we have, due to these

12    technical problems, that we have to interrupt your testimony at this

13    moment and that another witness, who has -- who has to leave today, gets

14    priority to give his testimony, and then we would continue with you after

15    this witness has finished most likely today, that we would continue your

16    examination after that.  So then Ms. Gustafson would continue to put

17    questions to you, and then Defence counsel would put questions to you as

18    well.  But do you now understand what I just told you, that you have to

19    wait for a while?

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  So would you keep yourself available this morning so

22    that if we would restart later this morning, that you would be available

23    and if not, that we would tomorrow continue with your examination.  So

24    either later today or tomorrow.

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.  Whatever suits you.  No


Page 8255

 1    problem for me.  If you want, I can continue today or tomorrow.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We don't know yet whether it will be later

 3    today or tomorrow.  The representative of the Registry who is sitting next

 4    to you will inform you about the progress we are making.  I would like to

 5    thank you very much for your flexibility at this moment, and the Chamber

 6    is grateful that you're willing to adapt to our problems.  I again

 7    instruct you that you should meanwhile not speak with anyone about your

 8    testimony, the testimony you'd given yesterday or the testimony still to

 9    be given later today or tomorrow.  Is that understood?

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  Yes.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Then the representative of the Registry in Belgrade,

12    I'd like to inform you that due to some technical matters, the change of

13    interpreters teams, that we need to take a short break.  We will take a

14    break for, Mr. Registrar, is my assumption right that it would take a

15    couple of minutes only?  Yes.  After these couple of minutes, we would

16    like to start in private session with the next witness to be called in

17    order to further hear answers to questions or submissions by the parties

18    in relation to the protective measures requested in respect of this

19    witness.

20            We'll have a break, everyone is -- yes, Mr. Guy-Smith?

21            MR. GUY-SMITH:  This is with regard to the next witness.  There is

22    a question with regard to the issue of disclosure that might need to be

23    dealt with just quite briefly before we proceed even with the issue

24    concerning measures.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll then after the break start with your

 


Page 8256

 1    submission on the -- what I understand to be late disclosure.

 2            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  We'll have a break for three to five minutes.

 4                          --- Break taken at 10.43 a.m.

 5                          --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

 6                          [Closed session]

 7  (redacted)

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Page 8257

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Page 8268

 1  (redacted)

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10  (redacted)

11                          [Open session]

12            JUDGE ORIE:  With all the protective measures in place, I would

13    invite the witness to make the solemn declaration.

14            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

16            Good morning, Witness 54.  Can you hear me?

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Witness 54, you are -- I'm not calling you by your

19    own name because it was requested that protective measures are applied.

20    Were you informed by the support officer of the victims and witness

21    section what decision the Chamber has made?  Were you informed -- were you

22    informed --

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  -- that no one can see your face, that no one can

25    hear your own voice and that we will not use your own name, we'll call you

 


Page 8269

 1    by the number of Witness 54.

 2            Now, before you give evidence, the --

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  -- Court wants to be assured that you will tell us

 5    whatever is asked in full accordance with the truth.  That is you tell

 6    exactly how things were, that you do not add anything which is not what

 7    happened, that you do not leave out anything.  And in order to be assured

 8    in these kinds of proceedings, the witness makes a solemn declaration.  Do

 9    you understand what that means?  That is that you are promising us that

10    this is what you're going to do.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear?  Then I do understand that the text of

13    this solemn declaration has been given to you, and I'd invite you to make

14    that solemn declaration.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16    the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

17                          WITNESS: Witness 54

18                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much.  Please be seated.  Ms. Ley, you

20    are going to examine the witness?

21            MS. LEY:  Yes, Your Honour.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, questions will be put to you.

23            You have met the witness before?

24            MS. LEY:  Yes, I have.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Questions will be put to you by Ms. Ley, and I


Page 8270

 1    do understand that you know her already because you've seen her before.

 2  (redacted)

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Harvey?

 4            MR. HARVEY:  Your Honour, I apologise for interrupting.  With the

 5    previous witness, it's my recollection you asked whether there was anybody

 6    else present in the room.  May I just take that one step further?  As a

 7    result of something I just saw as the camera swept around, it appeared to

 8    me that there is some sort of glass partition there.  I don't know whether

 9    there is anybody else who can actually see and be seen by the witness

10    while this testimony is being taken.  I would just like to have that

11    clarified.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Witness 54, I would like to know exactly who

13    there are in the room where you're in, and I'd like to ask the

14    representative of the Registry to tell us who are in the room and whether

15    there is any visual connection of that room with any other room.  Don't

16    bother about it.  Could the camera move or the -- yes.

17            THE VIDEOLINK REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, present in the room are

18    Witness 54, a technician and myself, and the only visual connection we

19    have is with courtroom number 1.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21            THE VIDEOLINK REGISTRAR:  Visual and audio connection.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Nothing else.  That would certainly satisfy

23    Mr. Harvey.  I take it, Mr. Harvey?

24            MR. HARVEY:  Of course, Your Honour, thank you.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Witness 54, now we come to what you came for, that is

 


Page 8271

 1    to answer the questions, questions first to be put to you by Ms. Ley.  As

 2    I said you've met her before so it might be a familiar face for you on the

 3    screen.  Please proceed, Ms. Ley.

 4                          Examination by Ms. Ley:

 5  (redacted)

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We are at this moment in open session, Ms. Ley.

 7    If you want to get the details of the witness --

 8            MS. LEY:  Can we move into private session, please?

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

10                          [Private session]

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

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Page 8272

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Page 8274

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

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 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8                          [Open session]

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  Ms. Ley, you certainly

11    still will have in the back of your mind that identifying portions of the

12    story should be dealt with in private session.  Please proceed.

13            MS. LEY:

14       Q.   Witness 54, what was (redacted) doing for a living in 1998?

15       A.   He worked as a car mechanic and car tire repairman.

16       Q.   Was he a soldier?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   What about (redacted)?  Was he a soldier?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   I want you to please tell the Trial Chamber about the day that you

21    saw (redacted) the last time.  Can you tell us what happened, please?

22       A.   Well, (redacted) from Novi Sad sent money, and (redacted)

23    (redacted) went to the post office to collect the money.  We were at

24    my uncle's house, (redacted) is where we were

25    living at the time.  (redacted) came to fetch me.


Page 8275

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  We turn into private session.  The

 2    witness is not able to -- and since you let him tell the story on his own,

 3    you are fully lacking control of what happens.  We turn into private

 4    session.

 5                          [Private session]

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

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Page 8276

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Page 8282

 1  (redacted)

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 3  (redacted)

 4                          [Open session]

 5            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 7            Witness 54, very good of you to come and to answer the questions

 8    that have been put to you.  (redacted)  And I'd like to thank

 9    you, and I hope that you'll be home again very soon.  This concludes your

10    testimony.

11            I think we should prepare for the next witness to appear.

12                          [The witness withdrew]

13            MR. DI FAZIO:  If Your Honours please --.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Di Fazio.

15            MR. DI FAZIO:  There is a matter before the next witness is called

16    that I think I ought to raise, and I --  it might be an idea for us to do

17    that in private session.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Then we turn into private session.

19                          [Private session]

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

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Page 8283

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Page 8294

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10                          [Open session]

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Witness 65, can you hear me?

12            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter could not hear the witness.  Now

13    I can hear.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Witness 65, can you also see us in The Hague?

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Witness 65, we will now continue your examination,

18    but I first of all would like to thank you for your flexibility to wait a

19    while until we could resume, and I would also like to remind you that you

20    are still bound by the solemn declaration you have given yesterday at the

21    beginning of your testimony, a solemn declaration that you will speak the

22    truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So we are starting from the

24    beginning?

25            JUDGE ORIE:  No, we are not starting from the beginning.  We will

 


Page 8295

 1    just continue.  Ms. Gustafson will put further questions to you.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where we left off?

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes, that is correctly understood.

 4                          WITNESS:  WITNESS SST7/65 [Resumed]

 5                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson?

 7            MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, it appears I'm not getting

 8    translation.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Are you plugged into the right socket?

10            MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'm not sure.  I didn't remove it.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know whether you get the original.

12            Witness 65, we are just checking whether Ms. Gustafson gets the

13    right audio as well.  So one --

14            MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'm getting audio, Your Honour.  It's just that I

15    didn't hear the interpretation.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Can the counsel hear us

18    now.

19            MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  All technical problems resolved, Witness 65.

21    We'll resume.  And we'll continue where we stopped yesterday.

22    Ms. Gustafson.

23            MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24                          Examination by Ms. Gustafson: [Continued]

25       Q.   Good afternoon, Witness 65.  Yesterday evening, you had explained

 


Page 8296

 1    to the Trial Chamber what happened to your brother, and we appreciate your

 2    patience this morning.  I would just like to ask you a few additional

 3    questions about some details of what happened to your brother, and I'd

 4    like, if you could, to listen to my questions as carefully as you can and

 5    to try to focus your answers just on the questions that I ask you, all

 6    right?

 7       A.   Okay.

 8       Q.   Now, yesterday you said that the group that came and took your

 9    brother arrived in seven or eight vehicles.  And I'd like to ask you, were

10    you able to determine which -- were you able to determine which direction

11    the vehicles came from?

12       A.   Yes.  They came from the village, from Gllogjan, from that road.

13       Q.   So you're saying they came to the place where you were on the road

14    coming in the -- from the direction of Gllogjan towards where you were?

15       A.   Yes.  That goes to Dujak and Gllogjan.

16       Q.   Thank you.  And now I'd like to ask you some questions about the

17    people who came and took your brother.  You said that one of them was

18    wearing black clothes and had a black hood on his face.  Was he the only

19    one in black clothes or -- or were there more people wearing black

20    clothes?  Was it just one or was it more than one wearing black clothes?

21       A.   There was only him that was wearing black clothes.  There were

22    many other people present there.  I couldn't count all of them.

23       Q.   And you also said that the person in black clothes had a black

24    hide on his face.  Was he the only one with a hood or were there others

25    who were also wearing hoods?


Page 8297

 1       A.   Yes.  The other ones were not wearing black clothes, only he was

 2    wearing black clothes.

 3       Q.   And do you remember anything about how any of the other ones were

 4    dressed?

 5       A.   They were wearing civilian clothes.  The other ones, I mean.

 6       Q.   And do you remember seeing any insignia or badges on any of the

 7    people's clothes?

 8       A.   There weren't any.

 9       Q.   And were these people armed?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   What kind of arms did they have?

12       A.   There were automatic rifles, these kinds of guns.

13       Q.   And what language did they speak?

14       A.   Albanian.

15       Q.   And as far as you can -- you could tell, were these people members

16    of some force or organisation?

17            MR. EMMERSON:  Sorry, before the witness answers that question, an

18    evidential foundation needs to be laid.  Now, certain questions have been

19    asked and certain answers have been given but to invite the witness at

20    this stage to give an answer which amounts effectively to an expression of

21    opinion, unless words were spoken or there is some other evidential

22    foundation.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson, your rather abstract question,

24    Mr. Emmerson, would like to you lay an evidentiary foundation for any

25    conclusion to be drawn, and I think it would assist the Chamber if you


Page 8298

 1    would do so.  Please proceed.

 2            MS. GUSTAFSON:

 3       Q.   Witness 65, was anything said or done by these people to indicate

 4    to you that they belonged to some force or organisation?

 5       A.   I told you last night as well about the case when they took my

 6    brother to the car and they beat me black and blue, and I lost my

 7    consciousness.

 8       Q.   I'd like you, if you could, to listen carefully to my question.  I

 9    asked you if these people said or did anything that indicated to you that

10    they belonged to some force or some organisation?  Do you remember

11    anything that was said or done that indicated to you whether these people

12    belonged to some group?

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15       Q.   Thank you.

16            MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, I intend to move on to the next

17    question.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You may do so.  Sometimes the factual basis for

19    observations can also be established once the observations have been made.

20    I leave that up to you at this moment.  Please proceed.

21            MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

22       Q.   Did you recognise any of the people that day?  Did you know any of

23    them?

24       A.   No.  I didn't.  I couldn't recognise anyone.  They took my brother

25    to the car.  I was lying on the ground.  My wife poured some water on me


Page 8299

 1    because I was unconscious.

 2       Q.   And you said one of them -- one of the men was looking for your

 3    cousin.  Was anything said or done to indicate to you why they were

 4    looking for your cousin?

 5       A.   They didn't ask me the way you're putting it.  They surrounded me

 6    and they were swearing and shouting, "Why are you here?  You are siding

 7    with the Serbs.  You are Maxhupis, gypsies."  These were the words they

 8    were saying.

 9       Q.   When they said you were siding with the Serbs, what did you

10    understand that to mean?  Did you understand that to be a reference to

11    something that you had done?

12       A.   No, no.  I don't know what they were thinking.  I don't know what

13    was in their mind.  I did not have any links with Serbs or Albanians,

14    never.  And I never had any problems.

15       Q.   And you also said yesterday that the men pushed your wife and

16    swore at her.  Do you remember the words they used when they swore at your

17    wife, what they said to her?

18       A.   Yes.  Yes.  They said to her, "Maxhupis, Gipsy," because the way

19    it happened was like this, they wanted to take me away and my wife

20    screamed and was holding on to me, and other people were asking them not

21    to take me away, and then they beat me.  I remained down on the ground.

22       Q.   And so -- so you were beaten and you were on the ground and you

23    have also told us that they put your brother in a car, and they took him

24    away.  And I'd like to understand this from you.  Did you actually see

25    with your own eyes your brother being driven away, or did you not see them


Page 8300

 1    drive away with your own eyes?

 2       A.   I did see him being put into the car and being hit with a rifle's

 3    butt, and he was inside the car and then they drove him away.  I could see

 4    them very well.  I couldn't get up, though.

 5       Q.   So you saw them drive away.  Did they drive away the same way they

 6    had come or a different way?

 7       A.   They went in the same direction, from where they came.

 8       Q.   Now, you've said that when the men arrived, they asked you where

 9    your cousin was and that you said you didn't know.  And then eventually

10    they took your brother --

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Did they say -- did they say anything to you to indicate why they

13    were taking your brother away?

14       A.   They took him because of my cousin.  My father told me that he had

15    heard this being said.  (redacted)

16    (redacted)

17       Q.   You said your father told you that he had heard this being said?

18       A.   Yes.  He had heard that.

19       Q.   Did your father tell you he heard it that day?  Or is this

20    something your father heard later on?

21       A.   That day, on the same day, while all these things were going on

22    and the noise and everything.  He was not close to me.  He was sitting a

23    little farther away.  He was there.  And now he's not alive.

24       Q.   I just want to clarify the last answer.  Is this something your

25    father heard said that day by the men who took your brother?  Is that what


Page 8301

 1    you're saying?

 2       A.   That day, yes, that day.

 3       Q.   Thank you.  Now, you've said that you didn't recognise any of the

 4    men.  Did you ever learn anything later about who any of these men were?

 5       A.   I couldn't recognise anything.  And I cannot tell you today who it

 6    was.  I would like to know today who killed him and why.  He was young.

 7    He was only 18 when he was taken away.  He would be 24, 23 or 24 today.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  And after that day when he was taken away, did you

 9    ever see your brother again?

10       A.   No, I didn't.

11       Q.   And what about other people in your family?  Do you know if anyone

12    in your family ever saw him again?

13       A.   You mean when he was taken away?

14       Q.   After he was taken away, did anyone in your family ever see him

15    again after he was taken away?

16       A.   No, no one saw him again.

17       Q.   Thank you.  Now, there is just one more thing I'd like to ask you

18    about on a different topic, and it's about the time before you left your

19    home village, the village you grew up in, and I'd like to remind you not

20    to mention the name of that village.

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   When you were living in your home village in 1998, before you

23    left, had you heard of Ramush Haradinaj?

24       A.   No.  I personally hadn't heard.  I didn't know what he was.  I

25    didn't know anything about the war.  I don't know.  We could hear some


Page 8302

 1    shots being fired in the mountains.  That was all.  But I didn't know who

 2    it was that was firing.

 3       Q.   Thank you.

 4            MS. GUSTAFSON:  Those are my questions, Your Honour.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Gustafson.  One second, please.

 6                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, before I give you an opportunity,

 8    Mr. Emmerson, to cross-examine the witness, I'd like to turn into private

 9    session for one second and seek one or two clarifications.

10                          [Private session]

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

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22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

 


Page 8303

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Page 8310

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3                          [Open session]

 4            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Witness 65, these were the last questions put to you

 6    by Ms. Gustafson.  I'd like to thank you very much for coming to the

 7    studio from where you gave your testimony.  You've answered all the

 8    questions put to you by the parties and by the Bench.  I wish you a safe

 9    trip home again.

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like to drink some water.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  You can take off your earphones.  This

12    concludes your testimony.  Thank you again.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you to you.

14                          [The witness withdrew]

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Then the -- we do not need the videolink any more.

16            Before I invite the Prosecution to call its next witness, I first

17    would like to invite the parties to look what portions of today's evidence

18    can be made public.  I take it that you'll pass this message to Ms. Ley as

19    well, Mr. Di Fazio.  If the parties can agree on that, that would be

20    preferable.  The Chamber will then see.

21            Before we continue I think there are some -- let me say it this

22    way, there is no agreement yet on who to call next, that is the witness

23    whose testimony was interrupted last week or whether it would be the

24    witness Visnjic, but before we discuss this matter, that's at least the

25    information I received, that -- I got an e-mail in which it is reported to


Page 8311

 1    the Chamber, and I'll just read one line.  "I spoke with Mr. Re.  He's

 2    insisting on putting Milan Visnjic before" and then the name of the

 3    witness whose testimony was interrupted last week.  Now, we have made

 4    quite some progress.  I do not know whether there is any issue remaining

 5    there but that depends on -- because the witness whose testimony was

 6    interrupted is, I think, invited to come back on Thursday.

 7            MR. DI FAZIO:  That's the Prosecution's clear understanding and

 8    expectation.  That's the arrangement that is in place as I understand it.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's then clear.  How much time would we

10    need for Mr. Visnjic if we would start with him now right away.

11            MR. EMMERSON:  Just to clarify, I made some inquiries with the

12    Prosecution yesterday, and my understanding is that Mr. Visnjic is

13    travelling today and is therefore not available to testify until tomorrow.

14            MR. DI FAZIO:  That is correct.  I can confirm, and I apologise.

15    I should have alerted you sooner.  We find ourselves in the position in

16    the position of not being able to produce any witnesses for the last 15

17    minutes.  What Mr. Emmerson just told you is correct.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Let's take it as a rule that if one party tells us

19    something about very practical matters, that unless I hear from the other

20    party, it's taken to be correct.  So therefore, now, how much time would

21    we need for the travelling witness, Mr. Visnjic?  Tomorrow?

22            MR. EMMERSON:  I think at the moment it's a matter for the

23    Prosecution.  Your Honour knows the position that we've taken in relation

24    to that witness which is that the circumstances in which the material

25    comes to be produced disentitled and disabled the defence from effective


Page 8312

 1    cross-examination, so depending upon what if any evidence the Prosecution

 2    intends to elicit from him in chief I would have expect the

 3    cross-examination to be short.  But there has been a certain amount of

 4    recent disclosure which I will need to look at overnight, and I reserve my

 5    position.  We certainly won't take the whole of tomorrow.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7            MR. DI FAZIO:  I'll be handling that witness, and although I

 8    haven't fully prepared my examination-in-chief, I don't expect it to be

 9    substantial by any means at all.  I would have thought that probably about

10    half an hour maximum would suffice.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  So therefore there would be a fair expectation, I'm

12    also looking at other Defence counsel, that tomorrow would do for the

13    witness Visnjic?

14            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Most definitely tomorrow would do for the witness

15    Visnjic.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  That would mean for the next witness that we do not

17    have to get in touch with VWS about travelling arrangements.  We could

18    just stick to Thursday, that witness to continue his testimony.

19            MR. DI FAZIO:  That's what the Prosecution completely envisages.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's good to know.  Are there any other

21    procedural matters, since we have 30 minutes left?

22            MR. EMMERSON:  There are in fact a number of exhibit issues that

23    need to be dealt with.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  The problem is I have not prepared for this

25    situation, as a matter of fact.


Page 8313

 1            MR. EMMERSON:  I was going to suggest we perhaps deal with those

 2    at a convenient moment, tomorrow perhaps.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if there any time left tomorrow.  We will

 4    prepare for that.  Is there any other matter to be raised at this moment?

 5            MR. DI FAZIO:  No, only that I'll raise this issue of procedural

 6    matters with my colleagues, as well, and that we'll notify the Defence and

 7    Trial Chamber of what those issues are, if in turn that could occur, I

 8    think it would help to expedite business if anything else arises.  That's

 9    all.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we --

11                          [Trial Chamber confers]

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Harvey, any matter you would like to raise?

13            MR. HARVEY:  Your Honours, I just wanted to inquire through you,

14    if I may, whether we have any report from Mr. Re or any of the

15    representatives of the Prosecution about the late disclosure matter that

16    was raised earlier and on which Mr. Re was going to get back to us?

17    Perhaps that could wait until tomorrow.

18            MR. DI FAZIO:  No.  No is the answer, if Your Honours please, but

19    we'll attend to the matter and if the matter will be investigated, we'll

20    be able to either provide an answer this afternoon by way of e-mail or

21    address the matter tomorrow.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Just for me, were you entirely exclusively addressing

23    the matter of the statement being disclosed lately or also about other

24    disclosure matters?  Because it was not entirely clear to me whether there

25    was any talking about facts, whether there was any other disclosure that


Page 8314

 1    needed attention.

 2            MR. HARVEY:  It was that specific statement and its late

 3    disclosure.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Specifically.  Then, I mean it has no -- it's

 5    an important matter, but not necessarily to be dealt with at this very

 6    moment.  Of course, the Chamber would like to be kept abreast of the

 7    reasons why.

 8            MR. HARVEY:  That's the only reason I mentioned it.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  I leave it to the parties how to inform the Chamber

10    about that, although it should not be too informal.  It should be

11    somewhere on the record.

12            MR. HARVEY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Then we adjourn and -- until tomorrow, the 12th of

14    September, 9.00, Courtroom I.

15                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.35 p.m.,

16                          to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 12th day of

17                          September, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.

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