1 Thursday, 15 November 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 We have not much time available, so therefore I urge everyone to

10 work as efficiently as possible.

11 First I'd like to deliver a statement on behalf of the Chamber.

12 It is a short statement on the Prosecution's tendering of new documentary

13 evidence.

14 As the Prosecution is aware, its case should have been brought to

15 a close last Friday. We are therefore currently operating in extra time,

16 which the Chamber has exceptionally granted to the Prosecution to hear

17 certain witnesses. There are limits to the Chamber's flexibility.

18 The Chamber has noticed that the Prosecution is using this extra

19 time to -- to clear its desk, so to speak, through a lot of motions, a

20 large number of documents, tendering them into evidence.

21 At various occasions, the Chamber has said that it's not primarily

22 interested in having documents loaded on it but that it requires the

23 Prosecution to carefully select those documents or passages that are

24 important and relevant enough to merit being tendered into evidence. We

25 have also emphasised that we prefer to have evidence introduced in a

1 meaningful way in court with proper contextualization and explanation by

2 witnesses who are in a position to do so.

3 This last-minute attempt by the Prosecution to flood the Chamber

4 with a lot of documents is not what the Chamber will accept, and we are

5 trying to stop this.

6 The Chamber hopes that this gives the Prosecution sufficient

7 notice of what the Chamber considers proper conduct between now and the

8 final day of the Prosecution evidence, which is set at the 20th of

9 November, that is, next week Tuesday.

10 I'd like to add two examples to this statement. We received an

11 announcement that the -- it's not more than that at this moment -- an

12 announcement that the Prosecution would seek to have added to its 65 ter

13 list an expert report on ballistics, on ammunition mainly. It's -- it's

14 two minutes to 12.00 and an expert report to be introduced at this very

15 moment would trigger lengthy litigation, responses, time limits to be

16 taken into consideration.

17 Now, the report as it was provisionally provided to the Chamber

18 knows no author. It -- from the report, at least, it's totally unclear

19 where the material comes from, what was the chain of custody. That's all

20 perfectly unclear. We didn't receive any curriculum apart from that in

21 the report the person who produces it says that he's not an acknowledged

22 expert in ballistics, although he has 40 years of experience with

23 ammunition, which is a rather vague expression.

24 Conclusions are, in terms of probability, this kind of material

25 does not assist the Chamber. And I add to this that it focuses on the

1 origin of the ammunition, that is, where it was produced.

2 Now, where ammunition is produced may be a relevant factor to

3 consider, but certainly is -- does not allow for many conclusions,

4 especially not in a case where there is at least some documentary evidence

5 that a party to the conflict may have considered to buy ammunition at a

6 place where it would suggest that it might be ammunition as usually bought

7 by the opposing side in the conflict. That's one example.

8 So therefore, before the announced intent becomes reality, the

9 Chamber would very much like the Prosecution to keep this in mind.

10 Another example is a Prosecution motion to add one document or, as

11 the Defence says, two documents into evidence. These are handwritten

12 statements of not entirely clear origin. There -- no good cause has been

13 shown why these documents should be added to your exhibit list at this

14 moment, and apart from that, the Chamber also has difficulties to

15 understand what the statements, apart from repetition, add to the evidence

16 that is already in front of it.

17 I -- I can immediately give a decision on that last -- that last

18 motion that the request to have it on the 65 ter list is denied, which, of

19 course, also have consequences for admission of these documents, if this

20 would still be sought.

21 I'd like to move into private session for a second.

22 [Private session]

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11 Pages 10801-10802 redacted. Private session.

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13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16 And I could invite already Madam Usher to see whether the witness

17 is nearby, because what we have to deal with will not take much time.

18 Defence counsel are now finally called upon to say whether there's

19 any objection against P1228, the picture of two ladies, as an exhibit to

20 the Dunjic evidence.

21 MR. EMMERSON: No.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: No.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.

25 MR. HARVEY: Three times no.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that makes altogether five times no, three from

2 you.

3 Then P1228 is admitted into evidence.

4 Then P1202 is admitted into evidence as well. The Chamber has

5 heard the submissions on that. The Chamber has decided that P1202 is

6 admitted in its entirety into evidence.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Krasniqi.

9 Good afternoon, Mr. Krasniqi.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good afternoon.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You may be seated.

12 I would like to remind you that you are still bound by the solemn

13 declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.

14 I do not see Mr. Pestman to be present in court. Is that ...

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The -- the change in the time when we would

17 start this afternoon may not have reached Mr. Pestman. Nevertheless, we'd

18 like to continue.

19 You know what I said yesterday to you, that if an answer to any of

20 the questions might --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you remind me what last

22 night's questions -- question was.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It was not a question, but I told you that if

24 in answering any question you would be afraid that you would incriminate

25 yourself, then you could address me and ask whether you would be relieved

1 from answering that question.

2 From what I heard yesterday until now, that moment has not

3 arrived.

4 If you would have any such issue, we might even invite Defence

5 counsel then to postpone that question until Mr. Pestman has arrived, but

6 we'll see how matters develop, because I -- it could be that it's out of

7 oversight --

8 MR. EMMERSON: I'll make it absolutely clear that judging by the

9 intervention yesterday afternoon, the territory I'm going to cover will

10 almost exclusively be territory that would have triggered Mr. Pestman's

11 intervention. But I'm -- I'm -- I understand that the Trial Chamber

12 following that intervention has explained the position to the witness.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

14 MR. EMMERSON: And so I'm perfectly happy to proceed.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber also has an -- will have an open

16 eye for any such situation to arise. Yes.

17 Then, Mr. Emmerson, the Chamber would very much like to see

18 whether we can conclude with this witness altogether in one and a half

19 hours, and that would be five-quarters of an hour for the Defence, which

20 is a little bit less than you asked for, a little bit of time remaining

21 for the Prosecution.

22 MR. EMMERSON: Very well. I will take a moment at an appropriate

23 space to have a word with Mr. Guy-Smith to ensure that, particularly with

24 this witness, that time is allocated.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

1 WITNESS: AVNI KRASNIQI [Resumed]

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson: [Continued]

4 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, the question that I put to you at the end of

5 yesterday afternoon - and I'll just get the terms of it precise, if I

6 may - was whether when you were spoken to by Mr. Dean, the prosecutor in

7 Kosovo, in January of 2006, whether you were told then by him that the

8 reason that there was a suspicion against you was that you had -- the

9 prosecutor had information that two men had been seen taking Sanije Balaj

10 into the woods. Did he tell you that?

11 A. I don't remember if he told me that, but the truth is that there

12 were two of us in the car but the person who took her out of the car was

13 Idriz Gashi and she did not resist or do anything against going with him

14 to the woods.

15 Q. Thank you. And just to be absolutely clear, you didn't get out of

16 the car at all; is that -- is that your evidence, Mr. Krasniqi?

17 A. No. I didn't get out of the car at all.

18 Q. Now, I just want to make sure, please, that I've also understood

19 your evidence properly about the process by which Sanije Balaj was stopped

20 and taken in for questioning. And I want to put a series of questions to

21 you for -- for which I hope we can get clear and short answers.

22 When you first saw Sanije Balaj near to the Barane headquarters,

23 you were with Ahmet Ukaj; correct?

24 A. We were sitting and there was Ahmet Ukaj, Hysen Ukaj, and other

25 policemen sitting under the shade of a tree when we saw Sanije Balaj

1 accompanied by two soldiers who were taking her inside the barracks.

2 Q. And how far away from her were you at that time?

3 A. About 40 metres.

4 Q. And I've correctly understood, the two soldiers who were taking

5 her in, you didn't know who they were?

6 A. I did not pay attention to what was going on.

7 Q. Well, you saw her being walked in. Could you see the faces of the

8 men that took her inside?

9 A. They were taking her in the direction of the school where the

10 command of the army was.

11 Q. Could you see their faces?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you. Before she was taken inside the building, did you see

14 your brother, Mete, in the area at all?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you see him at all that day in connection with Sanije Balaj?

17 A. I can't remember at all.

18 Q. What about your cousin Iber? Did you see him that day?

19 A. No, I didn't see him. I don't remember seeing him that day.

20 Q. And you -- you, if I've understood your evidence correctly, you

21 had nothing to do with stopping her. Is that correct?

22 A. I had nothing to do with stopping her.

23 Q. You didn't take her out of the car.

24 A. No.

25 Q. And you didn't speak to her cousin, Hazir Balaj, about her or the

1 reasons why she'd been stopped; is that correct?

2 A. Not that day.

3 Q. Thank you. And you didn't take her yourself with your cousin Iber

4 in to see Commander Nazif Ramabaja and Cufe Krasniqi, did you?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And am I right in understanding you were never inside the building

7 where she was being questioned at the time that she was being questioned?

8 A. No. No. And I was not interested.

9 Q. And she was inside there, you told us, for between an hour and an

10 hour and a half, and the first time you had any contact with her was when

11 she was brought out by Galani; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And during the time she was inside, to your knowledge, the only

14 people in that building with her were Cufe Krasniqi and Galani; is that

15 correct?

16 A. They took her to the school where the barracks were, and then

17 later they took her to the building where Shkolla e Kuqe was, the police

18 was, and I could see from the windows, inside the windows that

19 Cufe Krasniqi was talking to Sanije Balaj.

20 Q. Yes. But you never went inside at any point while that

21 questioning was going on, Mr. Krasniqi.

22 A. No.

23 Q. And then you say Galani came out with a notebook and with

24 Sanije Balaj, and shortly after that he ordered you to drive her to

25 Gllogjan; correct?

1 A. Galani came and went inside and Cufe Krasniqi was there when

2 Galani went inside. They spoke with each other there, and Galani came out

3 with Sanije Balaj and a notebook in his hand.

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. I don't know what they talked about in there.

6 Q. I'm not asking you that, Mr. Krasniqi. We've understood what

7 you're -- you're saying about this incident. But it was when he came out

8 with the notebook and with Sanije Balaj, that was when he ordered you to

9 drive her to Gllogjan for questioning. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Yes. And you told us yesterday that you obeyed that order because

12 he was claiming to be your superior; is that right?

13 A. He was the commander.

14 Q. You said yesterday in answer to the question: Why did you obey

15 his order? Answer: "Because I couldn't say no, because he was my

16 superior and I had to obey his order." Is that correct?

17 A. Yes. Whoever else he might have asked to do something for him,

18 everybody there would have obeyed his order.

19 Q. When he suggested to you that Sanije Balaj might have been taken

20 to Gllogjan, were you aware that on the 12th of August there was a massive

21 Serbian offensive taking place in Gllogjan and that the KLA had been

22 routed from Gllogjan by the 12th of August and the Serb forces were there?

23 A. Could you repeat the question, please.

24 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, we've seen evidence in this case, including a film,

25 of Serb forces attacking and taking control of Gllogjan and Irzniq on the

1 11th and 12th of August. Sanije Balaj disappeared on the 12th of August.

2 The question I'm asking you is: Were you not aware by the 12th of August

3 that Gllogjan was under sustained Serbian attack and had indeed been

4 invaded and taken control of by the Serb forces?

5 A. No, I didn't know that.

6 MR. EMMERSON: I'm going to ask, please, that without it being

7 displayed to the public, 65 ter number 2154 be shown on the screen, which

8 is ...

9 JUDGE ORIE: Does it need a number, Mr. Emmerson?

10 MR. EMMERSON: It is, I think, a 92 ter statement about to be

11 given a number. The Prosecution has tendered it. I don't think we yet

12 have an exhibit number for it, but it is a 92 ter statement.

13 And may I enter private session for just a second to explain to

14 the witness whose statement it is?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll turn into private session.

16 [Private session]

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14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

17 MR. EMMERSON:

18 Q. "About 50 metres from the school" -- I'm reading to you now,

19 Mr. Krasniqi. "About 50 metres from the school which served as the KLA

20 barracks, three or four soldiers came out on the road, which was very

21 narrow as it passed through the village. One of them was Mete Krasniqi

22 and he signaled to us to stop. He spoke to Hamdi, who was in the driver's

23 seat. He asked where we were going, and when we answered, he said that

24 Sanije could go no further with us because she has to be questioned.

25 Hamdi said, 'No, she is with us.' Hamdi and I got out of the car.

1 Avni Krasniqi, who was standing next to a white Mercedes minivan behind

2 our car and I went to speak to him. He showed me a black notebook with

3 names of people whom he said had to be interrogated and said that she

4 could not continue with us. I saw Sanije Balaj's name, along with many

5 other Albanian names. I told Avni Krasniqi that if anything happened, he

6 would have to deal with us."

7 A. Did you complete your question?

8 Q. I've completed reading the section to you and allowing the

9 translation to catch up.

10 First of all, Mr. Krasniqi, was your white Mercedes minivan

11 present when Sanije Balaj was stopped?

12 A. I can't remember.

13 Q. Did you speak to the person who made this statement and show him a

14 notebook with Sanije Balaj's name in it?

15 A. No, I did not have any kind of notebook with any names on it.

16 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, we've heard --

17 MR. EMMERSON: We can remove that from the screen now.

18 Q. We've heard testimony in this court from Cufe Krasniqi. He is

19 related to you and is a cousin; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I'm just going to read to you a passage of his evidence about the

22 stopping of Sanije Balaj. He said: "That day" -- and I'm reading from

23 5771, line 14 onwards.

24 "That day I was in the school. The school was called Red. It was

25 a new building. In that building, I was with Nazif Ramabaja. We were

1 talking together about something. We were in the new school."

2 Question: "Then what happened?

3 Answer: "Then two soldiers came. They knocked on the door.

4 After they knocked on the door, we told them to come in.

5 Question: "Who were they?

6 Answer: "They were two of my cousins, Avni and Iber Krasniqi.

7 Question: "What did they say to you?

8 Answer: "They told both of us Nazif was -- Nazif was the

9 commander. They said that there was a person who had been detained by the

10 military police and that person was a suspect. They wanted somebody to

11 come and interrogate that person."

12 Did you go to Nazif Ramabaja and Cufe Krasniqi to ask for someone

13 to come and interrogate Sanije Balaj?

14 A. No. I will tell you that these are Cufe Krasniqi's lies. This

15 says here "on the 14th," while Sanije Balaj's incident was on the 12th.

16 How can you say here "14th" and how can he say "the 14th" when it happened

17 on the 12th?

18 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, you misheard. I said it was line 14 of the

19 transcript.

20 Cufe Krasniqi testified that you and your cousin Avni came in to

21 speak to him and Nazif Ramabaja to say that a woman had been detained.

22 You say that's not true?

23 A. It's not true.

24 Q. A little further on, page 5772, line 7, he was asked: "Did he

25 tell you what this person was suspected of, why she was a suspect?"

1 And he replied: "Yes, they said that they had stopped this person

2 while going to Peje. Her goal, according to them, was that she wanted to

3 buy a telephone with an antenna. However, she would go from Strellc to

4 Peje through Rahovec and that was more difficult than going through Lugu i

5 Baranit, Cellopek and Trucuja [phoen]. So the reason she took this other

6 route were the basis of their suspicions."

7 Question: "What did they suspect her of?

8 Answer: "They found a notebook in her possession. She had some

9 addresses on the notebook. They said that they knew her and that they

10 suspected her of working for a Serb, his name was Corovic Dragan."

11 Again, do you remember any conversation with Cufe Krasniqi along

12 those lines?

13 A. No, never. And that day I did not see Cufe or meet him. I only

14 saw him inside the office speaking to Sanije Balaj and to Idriz Gashi.

15 And whatever they spoke about in there, I don't know. At least, I don't

16 know. I don't know about other people.

17 Q. I see. A little further down, same page, line 22, he was asked

18 where Sanije Balaj was when this conversation with you allegedly took

19 place, and he replied: "She was in the old school. We called it Red

20 School. It was an elementary school. In that school, there was the

21 police, the headquarters."

22 And he was asked: "Did you go there with your two cousins to see

23 her?"

24 And he said: "Yes, upon receiving the order, I went together with

25 my two cousins, we went directly to the school."

1 Again, we can take it, can we, that that must be untrue as well?

2 A. It's not true.

3 Q. He went on to testify, Mr. Krasniqi, that when he got there with

4 you and your cousin Iber, Sanije Balaj was inside a room sitting on a

5 chair with a soldier he didn't recognise. And after asking her some

6 questions, he decided that she was to be released.

7 And I'm going to put a short passage to you from 5775, line 10.

8 He said this: "I had nothing to say to her. I told her that these boys

9 suspected her that she was a collaborator of that person. They had taken

10 her. There was also another person with her, but that other person was

11 released by the military police. She had been taken here. Then after I

12 said those two words, my cousins intervened. They said she was not

13 telling the truth."

14 He -- he went on to testify that you insisted - that is, you and

15 your cousin Iber - that Sanije Balaj was not telling Cufe Krasniqi the

16 truth and that he eventually had to tell you to get out of the room but

17 that you stood outside continuing to listen to the conversation.

18 All of that is false, Mr. Krasniqi, is it?

19 A. It's not true.

20 Q. He also testified that it was he who asked you to drive Sanije

21 Balaj to her home.

22 A. Who do you mean "he"?

23 Q. Cufe, Cufe Krasniqi.

24 A. He asked me to take her home?

25 Q. Yes. I'll read you exactly what he said. This is 5779, line 23.

1 "Later she refused to come to lunch. I repeated once again my

2 invitation. I told her that the vehicle had gone to take lunch to other

3 places. And then I told her that when the vehicle would come back, we

4 would accompany her. She said no. And then I asked the other people

5 there who were present if they had a vehicle. They told me that they had

6 a red Golf."

7 Question: "Are you referring to your two cousins, Avdi and

8 Iber Krasniqi? Are they the people you are referring to?

9 Answer: "Yes. Yes, of course.

10 Question: "Where did she go?

11 Answer: "She said she knew them. 'They will take me home.'

12 That's what she said."

13 A. I don't know what they spoke about when they were in the office.

14 I only know when Galani came out from that building with Sanije Balaj with

15 a notebook in his hand. I have no idea what went on inside there. You

16 are asking me the same question over and over again.

17 Q. Well, that's a fair comment.

18 So far as Cufe Krasniqi is concerned, you've told us that he

19 released her, to your knowledge. Correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you have any problems in your relationship with Cufe Krasniqi

22 which might account for the fact that he's told lies about you like this?

23 A. No. No conflict at all.

24 Q. Can we move on, please, to a slightly later portion of your

25 testimony where you described stopping the car on the orders of Galani. I

1 just want to ask you to help us with this, if you can, please. Had

2 Sanije Balaj said anything during the journey between the time you left

3 Baran and the time that you stopped the car?

4 A. She only spoke to Galani and asked him whether they could speak

5 tete-a-tete, and he said "yes," and we drove -- I drove on, and Galani

6 said, "Stop here." I stopped. Galani got out of the car. Sanije Balaj

7 got out of the car. And she did not refuse to get out. Everything was

8 normal. And 40 seconds later I heard the pistol shots and I couldn't even

9 believe that it happened. It was so fast.

10 Q. So let's see if we can understand that a little bit more,

11 Mr. Krasniqi. On the way, you say Sanije Balaj asked Mr. Galani to speak

12 face-to-face. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. A private conversation.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What did you think she meant by that?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. And so when you stopped the car for them to get out, does that

19 explain why you didn't ask anybody what they were doing, ask Mr. Galani

20 what it was he had in mind?

21 A. No.

22 Q. What did you think he -- he was going to do taking this woman into

23 the woods?

24 A. I thought that they had some private conversation and they would

25 return, and 40 seconds later the murder happened.

1 Q. So that came, then, as a total surprise to you because you

2 remained in the car thinking they were going into the woods for a chat.

3 Is that the position?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Yes. And the -- the boys that were there, the shepherds that were

6 nearby, I just want to see if you can prompt your recollection,

7 Mr. Krasniqi. When you testified in the trial in Kosovo, you said that

8 they were only about 5 or 6 metres away from you.

9 A. No, I never said 5 or 6 metres away from me.

10 Q. And when you heard the shot, did you get out of the car then?

11 A. After Galani came out with a pistol in his hand, I opened the door

12 of the car and I said, "What happened?" And he said, "Don't move, because

13 you will suffer the same fate." And I stopped right there.

14 Q. Let's move on, then, please, to the quarrel that took place

15 between your brother Mete and Galani a little later on in which you told

16 us that Galani said to Mete he had killed Sanije Balaj and that they had

17 an argument.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was that on -- was that on the same day or a later day?

20 A. The same day, that night.

21 Q. And you were asked some questions about this yesterday and you

22 told us you don't know whether that conversation happened in Vranoc or

23 Baran; correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And you remember Judge Orie asking you yesterday - this is 10740,

1 line 14 - you -- he asked you: "You describe a situation where your

2 brother and Galani are quarreling and, as you said, in the presence of

3 policemen. Now, were you present when this happened?" And you said "no";

4 is that correct?

5 A. No, I wasn't.

6 Q. Thank you. And you were then asked by Judge Orie who told you

7 about it. And you said: "When Mete came home, he told me about this,

8 that it happened like this." Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then you were asked: "Did anybody else tell you the same

11 story, or was he the only one who told you?" And you replied: "No, it

12 was Mete, but I also heard it from other people, but I cannot remember who

13 was from the policemen there when they had that conversation." Correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, when you were in the Detention Unit here, having

16 been brought here from Kosovo, did you receive a copy of the suspect

17 interview that you had given to Mr. Dean in January of 2006?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And did you read it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And in that interview, you also say, don't you, that this quarrel

22 took place but you were not there and Mete told you about it; correct?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. You were then asked about this when you gave evidence at the

25 trial, Mr. Krasniqi. And for those following on the transcript of the

1 trial, it's pages 17 and 18. And you described this quarrel that had

2 taken place between your brother and Galani, at which Galani had

3 confessed. And you were asked this: "You just" -- this is the prosecutor

4 asking you questions at trial.

5 "You just described for the Court a discussion and an argument

6 between Mete Krasniqi and Galani; correct?"

7 And you replied: "The source of this dispute was the fact that

8 Sanije Balaj was killed."

9 And then you were asked: "Were you personally present during this

10 conversation or did someone else tell you about it?"

11 And you -- please -- please wait.

12 A. No, I wasn't present.

13 Q. Please wait, because the answer you gave, Mr. Krasniqi, at the

14 trial, on oath, in Kosovo was: "This is a discussion where I was

15 physically present."

16 You were then asked: "I believe that when I asked you about this

17 conversation in January 2006, I tried to clarify with you whether you were

18 present there physically or whether Mete Krasniqi told you about the

19 conversation."

20 And you were asked if you remembered that. And the prosecutor

21 said to you: "I tried to establish whether you learnt this dispute

22 between Galani and Mete Krasniqi because Mete Krasniqi told you about it."

23 And you replied: "I remember very well having been questioned

24 about this detail. I'm a bit afraid in case anything is missing from the

25 translation. The translator was Albanian. I'm telling you the truth

1 today."

2 And then the trial judge asked you that: "You were present?" And

3 you said: "Yes."

4 And a little later on in the trial, Mr. Krasniqi, the trial judge

5 returned to this issue and asked you again about the fact that in your

6 interview with Mr. Dean you'd claimed to have been told this; whereas, you

7 were testifying that you'd been present during the conversation itself.

8 And he asked you: "Are you positive now in court that you were present

9 during the verbal clash and you heard everything that happened."

10 And you replied: "Yes."

11 Now, Mr. Krasniqi, what is the position? Did that conversation

12 ever take place?

13 A. Well, the quarrel happened. There are many mistakes here of

14 interpretation and maybe misunderstanding, because that night when the

15 quarrel happened, I was not present. I was present on the next day. And

16 then the day after that when they quarreled -- because this went on, and

17 because of this quarrel, the body was taken away from where it was. So

18 the statement about the first night has been confused with the statement

19 about the other nights.

20 Q. I see. Do you know why it was that on oath before the Trial

21 Chamber in Kosovo you said that you had been present during that

22 conversation?

23 A. The first night?

24 Q. The conversation that was specifically put to you about the first

25 quarrel between Mete Krasniqi and Galani in which Galani admitted to

1 Krasniqi that he had shot Sanije Balaj.

2 A. Would you please repeat it once again.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

4 MR. EMMERSON:

5 Q. Can you help us at all -- I'm sorry.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, in the portion you just read, I'm

7 trying to find where reference is made to a first discussion or a

8 discussion.

9 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. It starts on page 17 of the trial transcript.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I haven't got the trial --

11 MR. EMMERSON: Oh, I'm so sorry.

12 JUDGE ORIE: -- transcript in front of me. But could you

13 please -- because that may be true, but I'm trying to find at this moment

14 on our transcript where this was read to the witness, mainly in order to

15 avoid any further --

16 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: -- misunderstandings.

18 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Well --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Is it somewhere in the portions you read? And if

20 so --

21 MR. EMMERSON: I'll -- I'll check the marked portions that I've

22 read.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Because it starts at page 23, where I think the first

24 question was: "You just described for the court a discussion and an

25 argument between Mete Krasniqi and Galani."

1 And then the answer of this witness at that time did not indicate

2 which argument it was.

3 And then it went on: "Were you personally present during this

4 conversation?"

5 I'm just trying to find out -- to understand --

6 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- how specific these questions were in relation to

8 the first evening, where the witness has testified now --

9 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: -- that there have been several.

11 MR. EMMERSON: Well, I think the best way to deal with this would

12 be for the Trial Chamber just to have in front of it a copy of the

13 transcript.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 MR. EMMERSON: Of course, it doesn't exist in Albanian, so there's

16 no point in the witness having it.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MR. EMMERSON: Can I just trace it through?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 MR. EMMERSON: I was trying --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. But at the same time, of

22 course, it's important that the witness understands --

23 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, of course.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- also now what is put to him.

25 MR. EMMERSON: Of course. And I -- and my concern is to try to

1 take it as short as possible.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ORIE: And you referred us, as you said, to page 17?

4 MR. EMMERSON: 17 is the first reference.

5 JUDGE ORIE: 17.

6 MR. EMMERSON: I think I -- for reasons of time, I was trying to

7 take the shortest possible passage.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 MR. EMMERSON: But I'll take it slightly more fully for the

10 purposes of the record.

11 Q. And before I do, Mr. Krasniqi, the argument that took place on the

12 night of the shooting, were you there or were you not?

13 A. I was not.

14 Q. So if we pick it up at page 17 just halfway down the line, halfway

15 down the page, the question from the public prosecutor: "So later in the

16 day, you told us Galani came to your house in Vranoc, which was the

17 headquarters.

18 Answer: "Yes.

19 "Who else was there?

20 Answer: "I remember that Mete Krasniqi and Iber Krasniqi were

21 sitting there. When Galani approached the place, Mete Krasniqi asked him,

22 'Where is that person? Where did you take her?' Galani told

23 Mete Krasniqi that he had taken her to the headquarters in Gllogjan.

24 Mete Krasniqi said to him, 'You did not have any reason to take her to

25 Gllogjan headquarters.' Then Mete and Galani got into a dispute. Mete

1 said, 'You do not have to take her to Gllogjan, because she was released."

2 After they exchanged some insults, Galani said, 'I have killed her myself

3 and you have nothing to do with that.' After which Mete asked him, 'Where

4 did you kill her and why did you kill her?' Galani then said, 'This is my

5 problem. If somebody goes looking for her, tell them that I have killed

6 her. You are allowed to tell them that.' We were, four of us, Galani,

7 Iber, Mete, and me.

8 Question: "Up until this point, had you told anyone what had

9 happened at the forest that day?

10 Answer: "No."

11 Please wait.

12 A. Am I to answer?

13 Q. Please wait.

14 Question: "You just described for the court a question and an

15 argument between Mete Krasniqi and Galani.

16 Answer: "The source of this dispute was the fact that Sanije

17 Balaj was killed.

18 Question: "Were you personally present during this conversation

19 or did someone else tell you about it?

20 Answer: "This is a discussion where I was physically present."

21 The transcript then follows with the witness being confronted with

22 his earlier inconsistent account and concludes with the presiding judge

23 seeking clarification at the bottom of that page, where the witness says:

24 "I am telling you the truth today."

25 "That you were present?

1 Answer: "Yes."

2 So the whole passage refers to an argument that took place later

3 that day when Galani allegedly came to the witness's house in Vranoc and

4 where, as the first answer makes clear, the witness was claiming that he

5 was there together with Galani, Iber, and Mete.

6 So I put it in a rather longer form.

7 Mr. Krasniqi, you told the Trial Court in Kosovo that you'd been

8 present at this row on the night of Sanije Balaj's killing with Galani,

9 Iber, and Mete and you were given a number of opportunities to clarify it,

10 and each time you repeated that you were present that night, the first

11 night.

12 Why did you do that?

13 A. I was present only at the moment when I was taken to go and bury

14 the person. This -- this is what I've said several times.

15 Q. You say now you were present only when you were taken to go and

16 bury the person. So you didn't hear the conversation being spoken. We

17 are clear about that, are we?

18 A. When they had a quarrel in Baran, I was not there. When they came

19 to Vranoc, I was there. When Iber Krasniqi came and Galani came to take

20 me with them and bury the person.

21 Q. Could you just --

22 A. And this is where a quarrel took place between Mete and Galani.

23 But I was not there.

24 Q. Well, we'll just, finally for the sake of accuracy of the record,

25 complete this by going to page 46 of the transcript, where the judge comes

1 back to it.

2 And just below halfway down the page, your testimony - these are

3 your words - when you're asked about why it was in your interview you had

4 claimed not to have been there, as you are now claiming not to have been

5 there, you were asked about that inconsistency, and you said:

6 "Maybe it is a problem in translation or there was a mistake with

7 the interpreter."

8 You then said this: "The night when the murder happened was the

9 night when there was a verbal discussion."

10 The judge asked you: "Are you positive now in court that you were

11 present during that verbal clash and you heard everything that happened?"

12 And you replied: "Yes."

13 Now, Mr. Krasniqi, either the evidence that you've given us today

14 is false or the evidence that you've given -- gave on oath in Kosovo is

15 false. Correct?

16 A. Well, I've not been lying here or I've not been lying in Kosova as

17 well. But you are misunderstanding. You are confusing the questions.

18 You are just asking how many the times I've drunk water and how many times

19 I've eaten. I have said it several times. When they had a quarrel in

20 Baran, I was not there. When they came to Vranoc, I was there and they

21 were quarreling why the person was killed. This is what I've said. What

22 I was -- I am asked here, I was not asked in Kosova in this -- in this

23 way.

24 Q. I see. I'm going to move now to ask you some questions about the

25 time that you spent in Switzerland before you entered Kosovo,

1 Mr. Krasniqi.

2 First of all -- and I'm conscious that Mr. Pestman isn't here and

3 has indicated the desire to raise objection to the line of

4 cross-examination I'm going to pursue, but I'm in the Trial Chamber's

5 hands.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Let's do it the following way: You put a question to

7 the witness. You ask the witness to --

8 Mr. Krasniqi, the next questions that will be put to you, wait

9 first before you answer them until I say you can answer the questions.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.

11 MR. EMMERSON:

12 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, were you convicted of any offence, that is, found

13 guilty and sentenced by any courts in Switzerland for criminal offences

14 whilst you were there between 1990 and 1993?

15 JUDGE ORIE: You may answer this question, Mr. Krasniqi.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have never been convicted and I've

17 never been arrested in Switzerland.

18 MR. EMMERSON:

19 Q. I just want to ask you whether in 1991 you were aware then of

20 criminal allegations being made about the beating of your wife.

21 JUDGE ORIE: You may answer that question.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

23 MR. EMMERSON:

24 Q. Or in 1992 to 1993, criminal reports against you for robbery and

25 burglary.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I interrupt for -- for a while.

2 Mr. Pestman, the Chamber was under great time pressure. And at

3 the last moment -- yes. At the last moment we had to change the time

4 schedule. We reminded Mr. Krasniqi of his rights to address the Chamber

5 if any question would be put to him which, if answered in accordance with

6 the truth, would incriminate himself.

7 We now came to a point where Mr. Emmerson asks a few questions

8 about the -- what happened in Switzerland. Mr. Emmerson asked him whether

9 he was ever convicted, where Mr. Krasniqi said he was never convicted; and

10 one or two follow-up questions were there as far as police reports. On

11 this part, I instructed the witness to wait to answer the witness [sic]

12 until I had invited him to do so. I invited him to answer these

13 questions. I think my role ends here. I don't know whether there's any

14 role for you, but just to update you.

15 Mr. Emmerson, you may proceed.

16 MR. PESTMAN: Before you proceed, I'm -- I'm very unhappy about

17 this situation.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. PESTMAN: I was under the assumption that -- in the assumption

20 that we would start quarter to 4.00.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're not in any way blamed for that.

22 MR. PESTMAN: I --

23 JUDGE ORIE: I can tell you that the developments which finally

24 resulted in a change of starting time, I think I said yesterday that the

25 picture changes every 15 minutes. I would now reduce that to every 5

1 minutes. And the Chamber was unhappy with it as well, and I tried to pay

2 special attention to the issues for which you are here.

3 MR. PESTMAN: Well, I'm not sure I'm -- I've understood what --

4 what has been asked and what topics have been discussed, but the -- the

5 Swiss court case or the conviction --

6 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't say anything about a Swiss court case until

7 now. The question only was whether Mr. Krasniqi was ever -- whether he

8 was ever convicted. No further details were given at this moment.

9 MR. PESTMAN: Yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know -- I take it that you have not discussed

11 matters with him. So therefore, you are already revealing something that

12 the witness might not know.

13 MR. PESTMAN: Whether I have discussed this with my client is

14 confidential.

15 JUDGE ORIE: No --

16 MR. PESTMAN: I will not reveal whether I have discussed

17 anything --

18 JUDGE ORIE: You needed permission to discuss anything --

19 MR. PESTMAN: No, certainly not before --

20 JUDGE ORIE: No, not before, yes. Of course. Of course I leave

21 that open at this moment. If --

22 MR. PESTMAN: Yes. But I would like to express my discontent

23 about the way this has been developing. I --

24 JUDGE ORIE: That's on the record.

25 MR. PESTMAN: Yes. And I also -- I have no idea what the last

1 question was, but I would seriously advise my client to remain silent, not

2 to answer this question.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it depends on whether an answer to a question

4 could possibly incriminate him.

5 MR. PESTMAN: Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That's something we'll decide on the basis of every

7 question.

8 MR. PESTMAN: Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, you may proceed.

10 MR. EMMERSON:

11 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, when did you leave Switzerland?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pestman, it -- it might assist you if you read

13 the last, I would say, 15 lines of the transcript before you entered

14 court.

15 MR. PESTMAN: Can I -- can I ask one question before I --

16 JUDGE ORIE: It depends on what --

17 MR. PESTMAN: Maybe my client can take his headphones off before I

18 continue.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please take your headphones off.

20 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pestman.

22 MR. PESTMAN: Yesterday we discussed the issue of the -- the

23 judgement or the alleged conviction in Switzerland. And one of the

24 questions I raised was whether this conviction is revocable or not.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

1 MR. PESTMAN: And as far as I know, this matter has not been

2 resolved yet. So I was wondering whether the Prosecution would be able to

3 inform me about that -- or the Prosecution or the Defence would be able to

4 inform me about that.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The questions until now were about procedures

6 in Switzerland, not about the substance. I think the questions were, but

7 if you'll read the transcript, you'll see that.

8 Let me see if I can find it. It starts page 32, line 2. And if

9 you would read that, then you'll see that the questions were about

10 awareness of Mr. Krasniqi of convictions and reports, police reports

11 brought against him, which, of course, does not deal with the substance of

12 the allegations contained in either the judgement or the reports.

13 Mr. Emmerson, you may proceed.

14 MR. EMMERSON: I think the witness needs to replace his

15 headphones.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please put your headphones on again.

17 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you please repeat the question.

20 MR. EMMERSON:

21 Q. My -- my question was: When did you leave Switzerland?

22 A. Well, please, the -- the question before this one.

23 Q. No, my -- I think that was the last question I asked you: When

24 did you leave Switzerland?

25 A. Would you please explain once again from the beginning. Can you

1 explain the first question.

2 JUDGE ORIE: No, the -- the question that is put to you - forget

3 about any other question at this moment, because if there's any unanswered

4 question, it is implicitly withdrawn - when did you leave Switzerland?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have left Switzerland on the 17th

6 of July, 2001. That's why I wanted you to repeat the first question,

7 because before I had a problem with the question that was related to the

8 problem I had with my wife.

9 MR. EMMERSON:

10 Q. Forgive me. Let's -- let's be clear. You left Switzerland on the

11 17th of July of which year?

12 A. As far as I know, 1992.

13 Q. And from that point onwards, were you in Kosovo?

14 A. No. I've -- until the 15th of July, I was supposed to stay in

15 Switzerland, because I was married there. And when I was having some

16 private problems with my wife, then there was an order issued by the

17 court. And three days before leaving Switzerland I have -- I have taken

18 the money from the bank, according to the rules in Switzerland, and two

19 days before -- this was done two days before leaving Switzerland,

20 according to the order issued by the court.

21 Q. Yes, I see. Please pause for a moment and remove your earphones

22 for a second.

23 A. [Witness complies]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

25 MR. EMMERSON: I would propose now to move to ask the witness

1 questions about the outstanding arrest warrant and judgement in absentia.

2 But I asked him to remove his earphones rather than put the question, lest

3 Mr. Pestman has an issue about him even being informed of this information

4 and how that might affect his legal position.

5 I see there isn't one.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pestman.

7 MR. PESTMAN: Well, the question I raised is still pending,

8 whether this conviction, if there is one, is irrevocable. We have to

9 assume it is not. And therefore I object to any questions I cannot -- if

10 I can object.

11 MR. EMMERSON: Well --

12 MR. PESTMAN: But I would certainly advise my client --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's -- let's try to get things clear.

14 If the judgement is not irrevocable, that means that everything

15 the witness says about any of the defence we find in the charges might add

16 or might be used in evidence against him under the relevant law of

17 procedure in the Swiss canton we are talking about.

18 Now, the awareness of a judgement is not evidence which

19 incriminates. I could well be aware of a judgement where I think that the

20 judgement was rendered upon false testimony. So therefore awareness of

21 the judgement as such, Mr. Pestman, seems to me - but please correct me

22 when I'm wrong - seems not to be knowledge which, when it becomes

23 available, would be incriminating as such.

24 Of course, I am aware that if the judgement has not yet become

25 final, that it may have consequences for asking for review of the case to

1 be retried. But that is not as such an answer that would incriminate. So

2 therefore -- but please tell me if my analysis in this respect, you would

3 disagree with that -- that would not be an answer the witness should

4 not -- would not be a question the witness should answer.

5 MR. PESTMAN: I'm afraid I have to agree with your analysis.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.

7 And, Mr. Emmerson, you're also invited -- I look at the clock. I

8 said five-quarters of an hour, and we are 58 minutes now.

9 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I -- I --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

11 MR. EMMERSON: I agree entirely with Your Honour on the issue.

12 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, are you aware that there is an arrest warrant in

13 Switzerland against you following a conviction in your absence for

14 involvement in armed robberies?

15 A. I've never been informed about what you are asking me about.

16 Never in my -- in my life I've ever been convicted. Well, you can go and

17 ask information from any country you'd be interested to.

18 Q. Well --

19 A. I'm really sorry -- sorry you're considering me like a robber,

20 because this is something I've never done in my life. I had a civilian

21 life, a private life before, prior to the war and after the war, and I've

22 never been involved in robbery cases.

23 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, just so that you understand what the position is, I

24 am putting to you the contents of documents that have been provided by the

25 Swiss authorities with your photograph on them that show that you were

1 convicted in September 1995 of a series of offences of robbery in people's

2 homes whilst they slept, and sentenced to seven years' imprisonment. So

3 what I'm putting to you is the contents of an official Swiss document.

4 Now, the question I'm asking you - and I think you have answered

5 it - is that you are unaware that you have been convicted in Switzerland?

6 Is that correct?

7 A. No. I have no information of this kind, and I don't think there

8 is a reason for me to be convicted in Switzerland. No reason for that.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: These are all your questions.

11 Mr. Guy-Smith.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Is your pleasure that I start now?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How much time would you need approximately?

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, if we rush it, I could probably finish it in

15 15 or 20 minutes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I'm also looking at the interpreters. Would that

17 be -- if you rush, you're not telling us that you're speaking more quickly

18 so that it is done at the expense of the interpreters. If you promise

19 that, I think we could continue.

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I won't speak more quickly then.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

22 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, you're aware of the fact that Idriz Balaj was

23 prosecuted in 2002 in a famous trial called the Dukagjin Trial, aren't

24 you?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. During the time that he was being prosecuted, there were many

2 newspaper articles about that trial, weren't there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You read those newspaper articles, didn't you, because it was of

5 interest to you, having been a FARK soldier and the trial being about the

6 death of FARK soldiers; correct?

7 A. Well, I've not read them, because I was not interested to read

8 these articles, because I had my life to think about. And I've been

9 working at the Italian military barracks and I had no interest in dealing

10 with such matters. I was never interested in such things.

11 [Defence counsel confer]

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we please have 2D001836 up on the screen.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Does it need a number, Mr. Guy-Smith?

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, it does, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

16 THE REGISTRAR: That would be MFI D221, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Because it's a newspaper article and it's -- there

19 are some - I don't know what you call them - transmission problems, we

20 have the article in hard copy, which has a -- is clearer, which we can

21 give to the Chamber just for purposes of viewing.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the original we can't read anyhow. But if

23 enlarging on the screen would not be sufficient, then it -- I think it

24 would be rather the witness who would need to see the original.

25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Go to the second page of that document, please.

1 [Microphone not activated] And if we could have it --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'd prefer that the witness be provided with a

3 copy which is better legible than what we see on the screen at this

4 moment.

5 At the same time, Mr. Guy-Smith, where the witness testified that

6 he didn't read the newspaper articles, of course, one can wonder what it

7 brings us. But we'll see what your next questions are.

8 MR. GUY-SMITH:

9 Q. If you would take a look at what's been marked for identification

10 as D221. Do you see that in front of you?

11 And looking at the -- the headline of that article, does that

12 headline include the name of Idriz Balaj and also the name of Togeri on

13 it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is the information, that information that Idriz Balaj was also

16 known as "Togeri," information that you had when the Dukagjin Trial was

17 going on in 2002?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: And if we could now have up on the screen

20 2D001858. Once again, page 2.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Does it need a number as well, Mr. Guy-Smith?

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, that's also going to need an MFI number.

23 Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

25 THE REGISTRAR: That would be MFI D222, Your Honours.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know what we are going to do with

2 newspapers, Mr. Guy-Smith, but the previous question could have been put

3 to the witness without showing him a newspaper article, which has not been

4 established that he ever read it and where the --

5 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm not necessarily done with that particular

6 article.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

8 MR. RE: I don't object to their tender into evidence, Your

9 Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, in e-court of the previous document I

11 have no translation. Is that --

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's not necessary.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

14 MR. GUY-SMITH:

15 Q. Do you see the picture before you in what has now been marked for

16 identification? You've seen that picture before, haven't you? That was a

17 picture that was shown throughout newspapers in Kosovo and also on

18 television during the Dukagjin Trial.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the newspaper article that I showed you that had the name of

21 Idriz Balaj and Togeri, that's a newspaper article that you've seen

22 before; right?

23 A. No, that one not.

24 Q. During the Dukagjin Trial, you saw newspaper articles that had

25 Mr. Balaj's name and the name "Togeri" associated with it, didn't you?

1 A. I'm sorry, but I explained earlier I worked in a military barracks

2 in Peja and I could not go in and out whenever I wanted. I started work

3 at 7.00 in the morning and -- and when I left work, it was just half an

4 hour to reach home. And -- and when I went home, sometimes I saw the

5 news, sometimes I didn't, because I was not interested.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak closer to the

7 microphone, please.

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: My question was: You saw newspaper articles --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krasniqi, could you come a bit closer to the

10 microphone.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once again, do you want me to repeat

12 it, what I said?

13 JUDGE ORIE: No, there's no need to repeat it.

14 Mr. Guy-Smith.

15 MR. GUY-SMITH:

16 Q. My question was: You saw newspaper articles with the name Idriz

17 Balaj and Togeri associated with each other during the Dukagjin Trial,

18 didn't you?

19 A. No, no, I haven't seen.

20 Q. During that period of time, you had information, you were told by

21 others that the name of Idriz Balaj was associated with the name of

22 Togeri, as you've just told us; correct?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. Now, you had an opportunity to discuss the matter of the body of

25 Sanije Balaj being moved with the prosecutor in Kosovo; correct?

1 A. What did you say? I did not understand the question.

2 Q. My question is: You had an opportunity, you spoke with the public

3 prosecutor in Kosovo concerning Sanije Balaj's body being moved; correct?

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. And you testified at a trial concerning that matter, the movement

6 of Sanije Balaj's body; correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And in your testimony during the trial, you were asked the

9 following question by the public prosecutor and you gave the following

10 response: And this is on page number 23.

11 Question: "Do you remember one of these individuals going by the

12 name of Toger?

13 Answer: "Now when I follow TV broadcasts of The Hague trials, I

14 recognise him as Toger. Idriz Gashi knows better."

15 That's what you told the public prosecutor then; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When you testified yesterday, you told us that the first time that

18 you saw Toger was when he came up and parked in front of the school and

19 spoke with Galani; correct?

20 A. It's been misunderstood, because it wasn't the first time that I

21 saw Toger. I saw Toger during the war and not only that day. This is a

22 misunderstanding.

23 Q. The first time you saw him with regard to the movement of the body

24 was when he came up to the -- when he came up and parked in front of the

25 school; right?

1 A. Are you saying that it was the first time that I saw him, that I

2 recognised him, or what was the question? Can you repeat that again?

3 Q. No, what I'm saying is with regard to the movement of

4 Sanije Balaj's body, you told us yesterday that Toger and others, two

5 other people who you were not able to identify, came up and parked in

6 front of the school and spoke with Galani. Correct?

7 A. I said yesterday and I am saying it today again: Toger came with

8 Idriz Gashi; they came together up to the school. Idriz Gashi asked me to

9 go with Toger to disinter Sanije Balaj; whereas, Idriz Gashi remained in

10 Baran. And for my security, I took Iber Krasniqi with me, and I've said

11 it several times, and this is how it was.

12 Q. My question is: That happened at the -- at the school. And

13 that's the school at Baran; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. It didn't happen anywhere else now, did it?

16 A. No.

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me for a moment.

18 [Defence counsel confer]

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm looking for a specific document. It will take

20 me a moment.

21 Q. When you were speaking with the prosecutor in January of 2006,

22 what you told the prosecutor at that time was that the meeting, the first

23 meeting occurred on an asphalt road while you were at a police station;

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Was it -- the police station is at a different place than the

2 school now, isn't it?

3 A. No.

4 Q. I see. In your first statement concerning this matter, you

5 identified another one of the people who was involved in assisting -- in

6 the movement of the body, and that was a person by the name of

7 Bujar Haradinaj; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You were asked a series of questions about that in 2002 in an --

10 in an UNMIK interview also; correct? Do you remember that? In December.

11 A. Yes. Yes.

12 Q. And you were specifically asked who was involved in the matter,

13 and you specifically indicated that Bujar Haradinaj was involved in the

14 matter as one of the people who helped move the body; right?

15 A. I said that -- that there was Bujar Haradinaj, but when I saw him

16 in Peja, then I -- I said that there was a different person, then I

17 realized that it was a different person other than Bujar Haradinaj who was

18 there. And I've said this to the office of the prosecutor in Peja.

19 Q. You've never seen any photographs of Bujar Haradinaj on

20 television, have you?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You made a mistake in 2002 when you mentioned him as being one of

23 the individuals involved in this incident, didn't you?

24 A. Yes, I thought initially that it was Bujar Haradinaj, but it

25 wasn't him. There was a mix-up with another person.

1 Q. When you went to collect Sanije Balaj's body, you told us

2 yesterday that you wrapped it up in a blanket. Correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And that was something that you personally did; true?

5 A. Me, Iber Krasniqi, and two other people.

6 Q. And the blanket that you -- you wrapped it -- you wrapped the body

7 up in, do you remember that blanket? That was a -- was that a brown

8 blanket?

9 A. I can't remember.

10 Q. Was her body when you wrapped it up in that blanket fully wrapped

11 up as if you rolled -- rolled her body fully in the blanket so that the

12 blanket kept her body intact?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. RE: Before -- before Mr. Guy-Smith goes on, I just want a

15 clarification. I didn't object at the time, because I was looking through

16 the -- through the transcript. At 45 -- page 45, line 14 he said: "When

17 you testified yesterday, you told us that the first time that you saw

18 Toger was when he came up and parked -- parked in front of the school."

19 I can't find that in the transcript. Could perhaps Mr. Guy-Smith

20 point to where in the transcript Mr. Krasniqi said it was the first time

21 he saw Toger.

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: He -- I -- he didn't say it was the first time.

23 He said that he saw Toger --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- let's move -- let's move on.

25 MR. GUY-SMITH: The thrust of the question dealt with whether it

1 was at the school or the crossroads.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I said "let's move on," because we're already at 21,

3 Mr. Guy-Smith.

4 MR. GUY-SMITH:

5 Q. I suggest to you, Mr. Krasniqi, that you are mistaken when you say

6 that Idriz Balaj was present at the time that you moved the body with

7 Idriz Gashi and two other people.

8 A. What are you saying? Can you repeat that once again, please.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krasniqi, what Mr. Guy-Smith tells you, that you

10 made a mistake when you said that Idriz Balaj was present when the body of

11 Sanije Balaj was moved. Do you agree or do you disagree that this was a

12 mistake when you told us that?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm not wrong.

14 MR. GUY-SMITH:

15 Q. I suggest to you, Mr. Gashi [sic], that after you saw Idriz Balaj

16 in the Dukagjin Trial you made a determination that you were going to

17 exact whatever form of revenge you could because of your belief that he

18 had killed some of your fellow colleagues who were FARK soldiers.

19 A. No, that's not true. That's not the cause. Because those who

20 were killed, they were not colleagues of mine. I'm sorry what happened,

21 but they were not my colleagues and there's nothing to take revenge

22 against. But the truth is what I've said. And what happened with the

23 Dukagjini Group, I'm not interested in that at all.

24 Q. I'm going to further suggest to you, Mr. Krasniqi, that you and

25 Idriz Gashi were involved in the death of Sanije Balaj. And that -- and

1 that you are not telling us the truth with regard to this for a number of

2 reasons, not the least of which is your concern that you owe a blood debt

3 to the family.

4 A. No, no. I -- I'm not in blood with that family. As Shaban Balaj

5 has stated here, we went -- that we've asked for Avni, and he was hiding

6 from us, that's -- that's not true. That's a lie. Because I have never

7 hidden away from Shaban Balaj, because we owe nothing to him and I will

8 never hide away from him and from no one.

9 Q. You --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, you said 15 to 20 minutes. We're now

11 at 25. Could you please wrap up now within two minutes.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, I'll leave it there.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

14 Mr. Re, any --

15 MR. HARVEY: I have no questions for the witness.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Harvey.

17 There is nothing in this field which is similar to customary --

18 let alone customary law.

19 Mr. Re, how much time would you need? Should we have a break now?

20 MR. RE: There's just one matter I wish to ask him, and that

21 was --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be five minutes?

23 MR. RE: Yeah.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Would that do then?

25 I'll limit you to five minutes.

1 Mr. Krasniqi, we'll have a break. We will resume at 25 minutes

2 past 4.00, and then your examination will presumably not take long any

3 more.

4 We adjourn.

5 --- Recess taken at 4.05 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 4.30 p.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krasniqi, you'll now further -- be further

8 examined by Mr. Re.

9 Mr. Re, please proceed.

10 Re-examination by Mr. Re:

11 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, Mr. Guy-Smith asked you about where -- the place

12 where Toger picked you up from when you went to exhume the body. I just

13 want to clarify: Was the military police place you were speaking about,

14 was that in the school?

15 A. Yes. The school -- there were two schools, the Red School and the

16 White School. The White School was the military barracks; whereas, the

17 Red School was the military police barracks.

18 Q. Secondly, Mr. Guy-Smith raised the issue of your knowledge of

19 Toger at the time when he picked you up from the school and took you to

20 exhume the body and wrap it in a blanket and you drove off with it. You

21 said you -- you'd known Toger in the war and it wasn't the first time

22 you'd seen him. How many times had you seen him before then, and in what

23 circumstances?

24 A. During the war, I saw him many times. I -- I only knew him by

25 name "Toger." I didn't know his full name.

1 Q. When was the -- do you remember when the first time you saw him

2 was? How long was it before that time when he picked you up to dig up the

3 body?

4 A. I can't remember. Probably one, two months before. I can't

5 remember accurately.

6 Q. But you said you saw him during the war many times. Where did you

7 see him? What was he doing? In what circumstances did you see him during

8 the war?

9 A. I have never seen him in bad circumstances, but that was the last

10 time.

11 Q. I didn't ask you about bad circumstances. I'm talking about how

12 many times you'd seen him and where, doing what. Can you just confine

13 yourself to that, please.

14 A. I don't remember. I saw him in the headquarters, when I went to

15 the General Staff, on the road many a time.

16 Q. Which -- which headquarters are you referring to?

17 A. The Gllogjan headquarters.

18 Q. What was he doing there when you saw him in Glodjane headquarters?

19 A. I don't know what he was doing.

20 Q. And the other thing I wanted to ask you about to clarify was:

21 Mr. Emmerson asked you about the meeting which you said you heard about on

22 the night when you -- when Sanije Balaj was killed, a meeting between your

23 brother, Mete, and Galani where they quarreled. Was that the only meeting

24 that you knew about that they quarreled -- the only meeting they had in

25 which they quarreled after she was killed?

1 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness answered this question already.

2 He said that there was several evenings, not only the first evening.

3 Let's hear from the witness.

4 I'll find it for you.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Re.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who is -- who is to speak now?

7 MR. RE:

8 Q. Was that the only meeting they had where they quarreled about

9 Sanije Balaj and what had happened?

10 A. No, no. I said it earlier. I've said it several times. But I'm

11 saying it again. In -- in the Baran school, when I was there -- when they

12 quarreled there, I wasn't there physically. But when they came back home

13 and Mete asked me, "What happened to that woman," and I -- I told him what

14 had happened and that we -- we got to bury her.

15 MR. RE: I have nothing further.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any -- is there any need to -- further

17 questions triggered by the re-examination?

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krasniqi, we have no further questions for you,

20 but this Chamber, before we -- we'll thank you for testifying in this

21 court. The Chamber will have to withdraw for a short second because we

22 were informed that a motion has been filed.

23 The Chamber will adjourn, but most likely for a very short period

24 of time.

25 [The witness withdrew]

1 --- Break taken at 4.37 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 4.40 p.m.

3 JUDGE ORIE: It is only two minutes ago that the Chamber was

4 competent to deal with the contempt case against you, Mr. Krasniqi, a

5 contempt case in which you are an accused, not a witness, that the Chamber

6 received a motion. That Chamber consists of the same Judges as in the

7 Haradinaj case.

8 Those Judges have considered that motion, and by way of -- I don't

9 know whether that exists by courtesy oral copy. Since you are in this

10 courtroom and since the Prosecutor is in this courtroom as well and since

11 your lawyer is in this courtroom, you are informed that that Chamber

12 decided to grant that motion.

13 The motion is Prosecution's application to withdraw an indictment

14 for contempt against Avni Krasniqi. That motion is granted. And the

15 decision will be put in writing. But for practical and logistical

16 reasons, the Judges of which that Chamber and this Chamber is composed,

17 thought it would be good to inform everyone right away.

18 That means that the -- that consent is given to withdraw the

19 indictment, and that has a consequence for you -- your detention as well.

20 That Chamber also decided that you should be released immediately after

21 the necessary practical arrangements are made by the Registry.

22 Mr. Krasniqi, I now address you again as a witness in this case.

23 The Chamber would like to thank you for -- well, to say "to thank you for

24 coming" is a different matter, but at least the Chamber thanks you for

25 having given your testimony in this court, having answered questions put

1 to you. We would like you to follow Madam Usher, who will escort you out

2 of the courtroom.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, are you ready to call your next witness?

6 MR. RE: I am. I anticipate that Mr. Sadri Selca is available

7 somewhere very nearby to testify. And if he is, I call him.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are you aware that there is another witness

9 waiting to finish his testimony and that today is the last day? So

10 therefore, please keep that in mind. There's no way that the Chamber will

11 sit tomorrow. There's no way the Chamber will sit on Monday. Tuesday has

12 been reserved for a videolink testimony. So therefore, use your time as

13 good as you can.

14 We are now quarter to 5.00. We need another break. That means

15 that altogether we have still 2 hours and 15 minutes.

16 I take it that the gist of the decision on Witness 1 which has

17 been -- has been explained to the parties might have some relevance for

18 the time the further examination of Mr. Versonnen would take.

19 I specifically ask you, Mr. Guy-Smith, how much time do you think

20 you would need for the cross-examination of Mr. Versonnen? And I add to

21 that, without the usual ritual dance steps which we sometimes observe.

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I've always been trained to follow my -- you

23 know, my tradition.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Since I underestimated the time with the last

1 witness and could have used some more time, I don't want to underestimate

2 my time here.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I had offered Mr. Re some agreed facts with regard

5 to issues that had been previously discussed in this trial. They are

6 relatively discrete. I think there probably is little, if no, dispute

7 about them; however, for reasons that Mr. Re knows best, he was not in a

8 position to agree those facts. But that does require that I go through

9 discussion with him, Mr. Versonnen, about practices and procedures that he

10 engaged in with this witness. And I have reduced the examination probably

11 by somewhere in the neighbourhood of at least 50 per cent. I think --

12 JUDGE ORIE: But that still --

13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think -- I'm telling you what I've done --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- in preparatory remark so that when I give a

16 time at this moment --

17 JUDGE ORIE: It's already half.

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- The time-- it's already half. And I believe

19 that it can be in 20 minutes, assuming the answers are as crisp as the

20 questions that I hope to ask without the ritual dance, which is going to

21 make me uncomfortable, because that's what I know how to do.

22 JUDGE ORIE: May I also take it that some of the concern is that

23 evidence by Witness 1 might be introduced through Mr. Versonnen, that was

24 one of your major concerns, that has been diminished. And that

25 therefore -- I think we are talking about paragraphs 14 to 19.

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Right.

2 JUDGE ORIE: That most of the issues there --

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's going --

4 JUDGE ORIE: -- do are not -- are not that relevant any more.

5 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's going to be -- it's going to be directly to

6 policies -- it's going to be directly related to practices and policies

7 used.

8 JUDGE ORIE: But then is -- could we expect any agreement on the

9 92 ter statement?

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't believe so. I'm -- I'll be -- I'll be --

11 it's really very simple, Your Honour. He was part of the team. He was

12 aware of certain practices and policies that had been promulgated by

13 the -- by the Office of the Prosecutor, by the ICTY. That's D119 and

14 D120. He didn't follow those policies and procedures.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I believe --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Which doesn't mean that a 92 ter statement for that

18 reason alone would not be -- we'll --

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, because it examines -- it examines that some

20 of the -- it examines some of the specific issues with regard to D120 --

21 JUDGE ORIE: No. I --

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm happy --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm happy to give another go with Mr. Re, because

25 I quite frankly think that we could -- we could agree, because these are

1 really issues that are not -- they should not be in dispute.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For me, agreement on a 92 ter statement is

3 something totally different from cross-examining Mr. Versonnen.

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm in total agreement with you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: On some --

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: The matters that I'm talking about with regard to

7 cross-examination - thank you, Judge Hoepfel - are those matters --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was --

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: [Interpretation] I'd like to apologise for the

10 speed at which I was speaking.

11 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, my question mainly is, although

12 I expect you to thoroughly cross-examine the witness on that,

13 Mr. Guy-Smith, whether paragraphs 14, 15, and 16 of the 92 ter statement

14 would still need objections.

15 Then, Mr. Re, I wonder whether paragraph 18 of the 92 ter

16 statement is a paragraph you would press. I do not expect an answer

17 immediately, but if you would give that some thought over time, and it

18 might -- you might interpret that also as -- not as guidance but that the

19 expression of these thoughts might give an indication of what you could

20 expect.

21 Then let's move on to the next witness, which is Mr. Selca.

22 I do understand that there are no protective measures sought.

23 MR. RE: No.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And, Mr. Re, you are aware that the Chamber will

25 then -- after the Chamber has asked other counsel how much time they would

1 need for cross-examination of Mr. Versonnen, Mr. Emmerson, how much time

2 would you need in addition to what Mr. --

3 MR. EMMERSON: Of Mr. Versonnen?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 MR. EMMERSON: None.

6 JUDGE ORIE: None.

7 Mr. Harvey.

8 MR. HARVEY: None.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I think with the guidance of the 92 ter

10 statement, more or less, that the whole testimony of Mr. Versonnen should

11 not take more than half an hour, including cross-examination, and

12 therefore be aware that we need another break and then we'd have to start

13 not later than five minutes to -- 25 minutes past 6.00. And then --

14 [The witness entered court].

15 JUDGE ORIE: I first should apologise. Could you put on your

16 earphones.

17 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Selca, do you hear me in a language you

19 understand?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Selca, you are -- you appear here as a witness in

22 the case against Mr. Haradinaj, Mr. Balaj, and Mr. Brahimaj. Before you

23 give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a

24 solemn declaration; that is, that you will speak the truth, the whole

25 truth, and nothing but the truth.

1 The text will now be handed out to you by Madam Usher. I would

2 like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Selca. Please be seated.

6 Mr. Emmerson, you're on your feet.

7 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I'm sorry, I wonder if the witness might

8 rather prematurely remove his headphones.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 Could you take off your headphones for -- for a second.

11 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]

12 MR. RE: Could I ask Mr. Emmerson to be brief. I know what he's

13 going to say.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 MR. RE: But we're running out of time.

16 MR. EMMERSON: Well, what I'm going to say is this: We received

17 notification at 13 minutes past 4.00 from the Prosecution of 17

18 documentary exhibits that it proposes to use with this witness, 5 of which

19 have been tendered and marked not admitted, and 12 of which consist, so

20 far as I'm concerned, nothing more than 65 ter numbers, in the sense that

21 they might be on the 65 ter list, but with that sort of notice it is

22 obviously impossible to assimilate the material.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 MR. EMMERSON: The position is that the witness statement of this

25 witness has no exhibits attached to it. And in those circumstances, I

1 object to the use of exhibits with this witness. I obviously --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Under normal circumstances, we'll take some

3 time to further discuss this. I'm afraid that in the present

4 circumstances, that, Mr. Re, when putting certain documents to the

5 witness, is at risk that on considering later whether we should admit

6 those documents - and, of course, also therefore pay attention to the --

7 to the related testimony - he takes then risks.

8 The Chamber cannot at this moment use the remaining two hours

9 spending 55 or 60 per cent of the time to the procedural issues, but --

10 MR. EMMERSON: No, I --

11 JUDGE ORIE: It is on the record -- it is on the record.

12 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And Mr. Re has certainly heard the statement earlier

14 today by the Chamber, and Mr. Re will certainly be aware that using his

15 time as efficiently as possible might put certain -- well, requires some

16 decisions and choices to be made.

17 Yes, Mr. Re. Yes.

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I join.

19 MR. RE: Can I start?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You can start. But demonstratively looking at

21 the clock could have started at earlier stages of this proceedings.

22 Please proceed.

23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Headphones. Headphones.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you ...

25 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]

1 WITNESS: SADRI SELCA

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Examination by Mr. Re:

4 Q. Good afternoon. Your name is Sadri Selca. You were born on the

5 27th of October, 1956, and you were born in Baran, and you are a serving

6 police officer in Kosovo; is that correct?

7 A. Accurate.

8 Q. You are also an accused yourself of a contempt charge here. I'm

9 not going to ask you any questions relating to the contempt charge. Do

10 you understand that?

11 JUDGE ORIE: And then perhaps I add to that at this moment,

12 Mr. Re, that present in this courtroom is also Defence counsel that has

13 been assigned to you, Mr. Dieckmann. Mr. Dieckmann's role here is limited

14 to issues of your right not by answering questions to incriminate

15 yourself.

16 That might not be perfectly clear.

17 Mr. Dieckmann, the procedure is that if you would like to

18 intervene for these purposes, that you should address me. Then we'll ask

19 under those circumstances the witness to take his earphones off. And then

20 you can address me to seek permission to advise your client on matters

21 which then you'll first explain briefly to us.

22 Then we --

23 MR. DIECKMANN: Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 Mr. Re, please proceed.

1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: May I just briefly once more ask Mr. Selca for

2 your full name and your date of birth. Because it was not understood

3 correctly.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My full name? Sadri, surname Selca.

5 Born on the 27th of October, 1956. Place of birth, Baran, municipality of

6 Peja.

7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much.

8 MR. RE:

9 Q. Just some personal details. Did you work as a -- a -- did you do

10 JNA military service 1979 to 1980? Yes or no?

11 A. Accurate.

12 Q. All right. And you worked as a police officer in -- from 1981 to

13 1990, then from 1990 to 1998 you worked as a schoolteacher in chemistry

14 and biology. Are those details correct?

15 A. These data are correct too.

16 Q. Did you join the FARK, F-A-R-K, in Kosovo during the conflict in

17 1998?

18 A. Yes, that's true.

19 Q. Did you join one called Brigade 3 in the village of Barane in July

20 1998?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Was the commander of that brigade Nazif Ramabaja, with his deputy

23 being Esat Ademaj, and the assistant commander, Musa Dragaj?

24 A. He was exercising the -- the task of the commander because the

25 proper commander couldn't be there.

1 Q. The two other brigades also based there, commanded by Tahir Zemaj

2 and Musa Gjakova?

3 A. Yes, one was in Prapaqan. The commander was Tahir Zemaj. And the

4 other one was under the command of Musa Gjakova.

5 Q. Were you based in the school in Barane?

6 A. Accurate, at the school of Baran. That's where we were deployed.

7 Q. What -- what did you do? What was your job?

8 A. I was responsible as an intelligence and counter-intelligence

9 officer.

10 Q. What unit would you describe yourself as being in when you were in

11 intelligence and counter-intelligence?

12 A. I was in the 3rd Brigade in Baran.

13 Q. Can you just tell the Trial Chamber what you mean by "intelligence

14 and counter-intelligence." What did you do? What were your duties and

15 who you reported to?

16 A. The general commander was Nazif Ramabaja, but my tasks included to

17 find out about the movements of the enemy and all the rest that was

18 related to defence.

19 Q. Who -- who assisted you with that? Who were the other

20 counter-intelligence and intelligence people working in Barane school?

21 A. To tell you the truth, I've had the greatest cooperation with

22 ordinary citizens. They helped me a lot and then I reported to my

23 superior.

24 Q. Was anyone else working with you in your intelligence activities

25 at the school, or were you the only one?

1 A. No, I was the only one.

2 Q. Did you carry out investigations in the course of your

3 intelligence work?

4 A. It was very difficult to carry out investigations because the

5 situation was such that we couldn't undertake investigations properly and

6 all the investigations were based on hearsay, what I heard, what he heard.

7 And then you -- you took it from sources which you thought were reliable,

8 but there was no proper investigations as such carried out.

9 Q. When you obtained information, how did you record it?

10 A. Once I received information, I typed it. And that information was

11 passed on to my superior directly. And then it was worked on the basis of

12 that information if that was -- if that was true, then we took measures.

13 But on the whole, mainly we -- we have failed in -- in corroborating what

14 we heard.

15 Q. You typed -- you said you typed information. Was the information

16 on -- in what form was it typed, please.

17 A. The classic typewriter. Not a computer. It was a classic

18 typewriter.

19 Q. Were these reports you wrote or the typed information, were they

20 numbered or filed or categorised in any way? What order did you have to

21 maintain the records of what you typed?

22 A. Due to the circumstances, all the information didn't have numbers

23 but they were passed on to superiors and some -- some were kept, some were

24 handed over to the superiors.

25 Q. Did you keep copies of them?

1 A. Usually I did, but when we withdrew from Dukagjin after the

2 Serbian attack, those documents were all destroyed.

3 Q. Did you sign these reports or typed information reports that you

4 did?

5 A. Normally all documents that were written, they were signed by

6 myself.

7 Q. What was your information about who Ramush Haradinaj was in July

8 1998 and his relationship with the unit in Barane?

9 A. As regards Ramush Haradinaj, with the commander of Baran they had

10 very good relations. Excellent. We had mutual cooperation. I, for

11 myself, I was at a lower rank. I -- I was not all across the relations

12 with my -- between my superiors, but I thought they had very good

13 relations at the start.

14 Q. At the start.

15 A. At the beginning, with the -- at the beginnings of the KLA,

16 together with Ramush, we took the oath in Baran.

17 Q. Mete Krasniqi, who was he?

18 A. As for Mete Krasniqi, I think personally, and the people who know

19 him, he was not involved with -- on the military side of things, but he

20 cooperated with both sides. So I'm not clear about his position.

21 Q. All right. In -- in the statement you made on the 16th of

22 October, 2002, you described him as a commander --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

24 MR. RE: Okay. All right. I'll withdraw.

25 MR. EMMERSON: Absolutely. I think Mr. Re knows full well --

1 MR. RE: I withdraw.

2 JUDGE ORIE: It's withdrawn.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. RE:

5 Q. Was there a military police unit or brigade in Barane when you

6 were there?

7 A. Yes, the barracks was at the elementary school. That's where we

8 slept. The kitchen was there. That is -- the logistical base was there

9 too.

10 Q. Maybe I didn't say it, but I meant to say "military police." Was

11 there a military police brigade or unit in Barane?

12 A. Yes, there was.

13 Q. Who was running that?

14 A. To tell you the truth, the military police, a part of it was --

15 was deployed in the elementary school and it was led by Hasan Gashi, and I

16 was in charge of it too. The other part, the so-called military police

17 about which I don't know much. I don't know who led them.

18 Q. Was Mete Krasniqi in either of these military polices, the one

19 under Hasan Gashi or the so-called military police which you don't know

20 much about?

21 A. At the beginning, Hasan Gashi led that unit. But when the -- the

22 barracks was -- was established, then Hasan moved to the military

23 barracks.

24 Q. Mr. Selca, can you please look at me. Okay. Please listen to the

25 question. The question was about Mete Krasniqi, no one else. Okay?

1 A. To tell you the truth, Mete was not in the military brigade in

2 which I was operating. He was a self-employed policeman, but he was not

3 part of the brigade where I was.

4 Q. What about the other brigade? You said there was another one

5 called the so-called military police. Was he part of that one, do you

6 know?

7 A. I don't know. I'm sorry. As far as I know, that formation was

8 led -- the military police was led by Hasan Gashi; whereas, me,

9 Sadri Selca, was responsible for intelligence and counter-intelligence.

10 And -- and the -- the military police was under my command.

11 Q. What about Toger, Idriz Balaj? Did you know him at the time?

12 A. To tell you the truth, personally I didn't know him. But on the

13 basis of rumours and speculation, I heard that a person from Gllareva has

14 come here voluntarily to fight in Dukagjin. And I didn't know more about

15 that person. But somebody else may know more about him.

16 Q. I'm going to ask you about several people whose names appear in a

17 statement you gave: Sanije Balaj, Istref and Nurije Krasniqi,

18 Zenun Gashi, Qamil Gashi, Dede Berisha, Skender Kuqi, Azem Gashi,

19 Misin Berisha. All right?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, this list is rather long. I tried to figure

21 out how much time there would be left if the Chamber would equally divide

22 the remaining time among the two parties. You would have another 18

23 minutes. So please proceed.

24 MR. RE:

25 Q. All right. Sanije Balaj.

1 A. I don't understand your question.

2 Q. All right. What happened to her?

3 A. What happened to her? I learned from her brother, whose name is

4 Shaban Balaj, I think - I'm not sure about that - but that's his family

5 name, Balaj. He came to the barracks in Baran and -- and then told me

6 that his sister was missing. After some time, I worked in that respect to

7 investigate the case, and I got some unverified information that she was

8 drowned -- she was killed and disappeared together with the materials that

9 she was -- she possessed at the time.

10 Q. Who asked you to investigate that? Or why did you investigate it?

11 A. It was her brother personally who suspected that someone from

12 other -- someone from some forces -- he didn't have any specific

13 suspicion. Because she was in Malisheve, some 50 kilometres from

14 Baran, and that's where the suspicion lied [as interpreted].

15 Q. I want to show you an exhibit. It was -- was P897.

16 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, I just wonder whether Mr. Re --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MR. EMMERSON: -- might clarify that last answer.

19 MR. RE: No I don't have time. I'm sorry. If I had time, I

20 would.

21 Q. I want to show you an exhibit, MNA -- which is marked not

22 admitted, P897, which is an official note dated Barane, 26th of August,

23 1998. And it has your signature on the bottom of it and it relates to

24 Sanije Balaj.

25 First of all, I want you to identify the document and tell us

1 whether it's a report you prepared and what were the information -- where

2 did you get the information which was in that report.

3 A. Thank you. For this case, I will tell you that that information,

4 it was late evening when I met Sanije's brother, who -- who asked me

5 whether I knew anything about his sister. At the time I said, "Let me go

6 into the barracks and see if anyone knows." When I came out of the

7 barracks, I understood that no one knew about it, but then an honest

8 citizen came to me late in the evening and told me that she's been killed,

9 she was -- she was raped, and then she was killed and then buried. And he

10 didn't want to mention names who had done it. At the end, it was

11 understood that that was -- that was carried out by people who the

12 Tribunal is aware of.

13 Q. All right. In the middle it says: "In all probability Togeri

14 then took her to Lake Radonjic. She was executed because she admitted to

15 working for the Serbian police."

16 It's your document. How did you get that information? Why did

17 you put that piece of information in that report?

18 A. This information was given to me by those people who were close to

19 her and they knew the circumstances, and that's what they informed me

20 about. And I didn't have the opportunity to -- to process the

21 information. So whatever I got, I wrote it down.

22 Q. The next -- the next one I want to show you is Exhibit P898,

23 marked not admitted. It's a -- a statement of the 28th of August, 1998

24 said to be taken -- taken by you. Present Rexhep Krasniqi, a statement

25 given by Hysen Ukaj, Ahmet Ukaj. It has your signature on it. I want you

1 to very briefly tell the Trial Chamber the circumstances in which you took

2 it, very briefly. Because this is a statement that you took from Hysen

3 Ukaj and Ahmet Ukaj.

4 A. It's true, Your Honours, that this information I got by the people

5 that you mentioned.

6 Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to ask you now about Istref, Kujtim Imeraj,

7 and Nurije Krasniqi. What do you know about what happened to them?

8 A. First I'd like to say that my courier, a close associate of mine,

9 he was from Junik. He lived in Turjake and he had relatives there. One

10 morning he told me that they have taken them. He was describing to me how

11 these elderly people were taken.

12 Then I was trying to find out, irrespective of -- of their ethnic

13 or religious affiliation, I found that those people were kidnapped by one

14 person who is currently said to be outside Kosovo, in some Western

15 country, I don't know.

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]

17 MR. RE:

18 Q. When was that that you received this information?

19 A. To tell you the truth, for reasons which you all know - and Your

20 Honours and the people who are here present --

21 Q. Just --

22 A. -- we have not been able to keep this piece of information. But

23 time has been --

24 Q. Please. Please look at me. I will stop you if I want you to

25 stop. Okay?

1 MR. RE: Now, can the witness please be shown 65 ter Exhibit 749.

2 Please look at me when -- so I can direct you when I need an answer or

3 not.

4 This is a document --

5 JUDGE ORIE: It needs a number, Mr. Re.

6 MR. RE: 65 ter Exhibit, sorry, ter 749.

7 JUDGE ORIE: 749. It needs a number, I take it.

8 MR. RE: Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI P1229, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

12 MR. RE: It's coming on the screen. It's dated the 25th of

13 August, 1998. It's described as an official note saying that you had been

14 informed by an informant that Istref Imer Krasniqi and his wife have been

15 abducted from Turkaj [phoen] village by Rrustem Tetaj and their fate is

16 unknown. And it bears your signature. Is that what you were referring

17 to? And does the date help? And is that your document?

18 A. That's accurate. This information -- this note was written by me,

19 and at that time I had quite a lot of bits of information to tell me what

20 had happened.

21 Q. All right. Was there --

22 A. That he was pivotal to what had happened.

23 Q. All right. Was there a soldier, Fadil Maloku?

24 A. Unfortunately, that witness has died. But it was said that he was

25 there.

1 Q. Did you speak to him? Please look at me. Look this way. Did you

2 speak to him?

3 A. I spoke to Fadil.

4 Q. About what had happened to that couple; yes or no?

5 A. No, no. For this, I spoke to a young man who lived there.

6 Otherwise, he was my courier. His name is Naselje Kuqi [phoen] from

7 Junik.

8 Q. Was any information given to you about Idriz Balaj in connection

9 to that, with that?

10 A. According to the conversation that I had, it was said that

11 Rrustem Tetaj took them in a vehicle. As to who carried out the -- the

12 kidnapping, I was not able to get any information on that.

13 Q. In a statement you made in October 2002, you said you spoke to a

14 soldier, Fadil Maloku?

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me. He's given you an answer. Are you now

16 impeaching him?

17 MR. RE: I'm asking him whether he said that and if so, is it

18 correct.

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, no, that's what's known as impeachment,

20 Mr. Re.

21 MR. RE: I'll leave it till the end, then, if I have time. But

22 the Trial Chamber is aware of what's in the statement, so I'll come back

23 to you --

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: I beg your pardon, sir. Excuse me. I object.

25 And I think it's totally inappropriate for Mr. Re to do that, to --

1 MR. RE: I'm talking about the time I have left available. Can I

2 please continue. I'll move on.

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Whether you have no time left or not, does not

4 mean that you can't comport yourself in a particular fashion, sir, and I

5 object to it.

6 JUDGE ORIE: No more quarreling, please.

7 MR. RE: Can I please move to --

8 JUDGE ORIE: One second.

9 You're moving to your next question, Mr. Re. Please proceed.

10 MR. RE: Can the witness please be shown Exhibit -- it was 896.

11 It was marked for identification -- sorry, MNA. It was marked not

12 admitted.

13 I wish to take the witness to the eighth page in the English.

14 Q. And the passage I want to take you to is paragraph 19, that says:

15 "Imer Krasniqi from the village of Turjaka, Peja was taken for an

16 interview regarding his collaboration with the Serbian police and several

17 other cases." What can you tell us about that? Are these your notes?

18 A. Look, the Krasniqi couple -- I don't know, maybe this piece of

19 information may be, but they were in a very poor economic state. And the

20 Serbian police frequently returned as to how much they collaborated with

21 them, I don't know. I don't believe very much in that.

22 Q. But they're your notes?

23 A. Yes. Yes. They're my notes. But to tell you the truth, although

24 I come from that area, I have lived there very little. And when I

25 visited --

1 Q. Stop. Stop. Look at me, please. The question was: Are they

2 your notes? Yes or no? The answer is "yes." I'll now move on. Okay?

3 A. Yes, they are my notes.

4 Q. Why did you write in your notes that Mr. Krasniqi was "taken for

5 an interview regarding his collaboration with the Serbian police and

6 several other cases."

7 A. I'm sorry. I do not accept this to be part of my notes.

8 Q. Whose notes are they?

9 A. Somebody else may have written that, because in that office it was

10 a public place. Everyone could enter and then go out of it.

11 Q. The document -- if I could just hand you perhaps a hard copy of

12 this, it might be quicker. The front page, it says "Sadri Selca." The

13 next page, it says: "In charge of the brigade, Sadri Selca, official

14 notes."

15 It's item -- item 19 at the end. But -- all right? Now, do you

16 recognise those as official notes with your name on the front; correct?

17 A. Sorry?

18 Q. Official notes with your name on the front. Okay? Correct?

19 A. Yes. Yes, yes, that's true. My name is at the top. And I

20 believe that I thought that piece of information at the time was correct.

21 Q. Why did you think it was correct at the time? And why was it

22 written in official notes with your name on the front?

23 A. Look, that -- I must say that there is a -- a distance, 3, 4 -- of

24 4 kilometres, and these people were in very poor economic state at home,

25 they were elderly, and someone -- for -- for --

1 Q. Please the question was not that. The question was: Why did you

2 think it was correct at the time and why was it written in the official

3 notes with your name on the front? Address that question, not another

4 one, please.

5 A. [Previous translation continues] ... Accurate at the time. I got

6 the information that probably that could have been accurate at the time

7 from the source that I got that piece of information.

8 Q. Moving to Zenun Gashi. Was he a friend of yours?

9 A. We worked in the police together.

10 Q. All right. Was he Roma?

11 A. Yes, he was Roma.

12 Q. Did he continue working in the police up until sometime before the

13 war?

14 A. Yes. We left the police in 1990, but he continued because his

15 family was poor and he carried on -- with agreement from other friends, he

16 decided to continue work in the police.

17 Q. How was that viewed by the KLA, the fact that he was working in

18 the police?

19 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

21 MR. EMMERSON: I object to the form of the question.

22 MR. RE: I withdraw the question.

23 Q. What happened to Mr. --

24 MR. RE: I've withdrawn the question.

25 Q. What happened to Mr. Zenun Gashi? When was the last time you saw

1 him. You've described your statement in July 1999 [indiscernible] for the

2 last time?

3 A. I saw Zenun Gashi for the last time at the centre of Baran when I

4 was there with some friends. I saw a car where he was in. And -- and as

5 he knew me, he asked me if I could give him some water. And so I did. I

6 offered him some water.

7 Q. What was he doing in the car? Whose car was it? And what --

8 what -- who else was in the car?

9 A. To tell you the truth, I didn't know the people who were in the

10 car.

11 Q. Were they civilians or soldiers?

12 A. No, they were civilians. We didn't have uniforms. Everybody wore

13 what he could, what he had. There was no unified uniform.

14 Q. Mr. Selca --

15 A. Especially with the group that were with him.

16 Q. Mr. Selca, you've sworn to tell the truth here, haven't you?

17 A. Yes., I've -- I've taken an oath to tell the truth to justice.

18 Q. Think carefully about whether -- whether the people in the car

19 were wearing uniforms or not, please, and think about the statement you

20 made earlier.

21 A. I'm sorry, I -- I'm not trying to dodge the truth, but it's a long

22 time that has passed since. And during this time, I've had some

23 psychological traumas. So I cannot remember every detail.

24 Q. Tell me -- tell us the state that Zenun Gashi was in the last time

25 you saw him.

1 A. When I saw him last, he was in a very poor state. He was beaten.

2 He asked me for water. I took water to him. I went to -- to the house in

3 the village which was closest -- closer than my house. I got some water.

4 And I gave it to him, and he couldn't speak.

5 Q. Were the people in the car Albanians or Serbs?

6 A. Yes, Albanians.

7 Q. Was he their prisoner?

8 A. I don't know whether he was their prisoner or their hostage, but

9 he was in their car.

10 Q. Who did you hear they were? What was your information about who

11 these people were?

12 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry. Can --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, I wasn't

14 entitled to ask. I didn't know them.

15 MR. RE:

16 Q. How about Mete Krasniqi? Did he have anything to do with this?

17 A. I can't remember. I don't know.

18 Q. Were these people armed?

19 A. No, I didn't see whether they were armed. I don't know.

20 Q. What did you hear happened to Zenun when he left with these men in

21 the car?

22 A. Look, at that time the information was coming from individuals,

23 individual citizens. And -- and what you got, you had to verify it

24 whether it was true or not, because each and every one had their own

25 opinion.

1 Q. What were you told about who'd ordered Mr. Zenun Gashi's

2 abduction?

3 A. To tell you the truth, it's a long time since and I can't

4 remember.

5 Q. Well, you made a statement in October 2002. Would looking at that

6 statement refresh your memory as to what -- what you heard at the time?

7 A. Yes, if you can give it to me and if it's true, I will -- I will

8 defend the truth.

9 Q. What you said was: "I didn't recognise any of the soldiers but

10 they were Albanians. They wore camouflage uniforms that I couldn't

11 recognise, but this was normal at the time. Soldiers used uniforms of any

12 kind that they had received from other countries. I talked to the

13 soldiers and told them to release Zenun because he was an innocent man.

14 They replied by saying, 'Here is your colleague' in what that I felt was a

15 threat against me, meaning my time would come. They drove away and Zenun

16 was never seen after that."

17 Does that refresh your memory?

18 A. True. Correct. Everything is correct. And I agree with

19 everything that you refreshed my memory about. The same said to me that,

20 "You will suffer the same fate."

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, we'll have a break now.

22 You have, as I said I would divide evenly the time available -- I

23 first would like to invite Madam Usher to escort the witness out of the

24 courtroom.

25 We'll have a break, Mr. Selca. We'll have a break for

1 approximately half an hour.

2 [The witness stands down]

3 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to turn into private session.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, will it be you who ...?

8 MR. RE: There is one document I would just like the witness to

9 identify, which is --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 MR. RE: Oh, no, it's P888, which has his name on it. I just wish

12 him to identify it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

14 MR. RE: It's a document signed by him.

15 JUDGE ORIE: One minute for that.

16 MR. RE: Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

18 MR. RE:

19 Q. Can you please look at the document which is coming up on the

20 screen. It's dated the 29th of August, 1998. It's a report written by

21 you in relation to Azem Gashi. Just have a look at it on the screen. I

22 just want you to identify if it's a document you prepared and that's it.

23 A. Yes, this document has been written by me. However, I was not at

24 the place where this happened. I was informed by citizens --

25 Q. Sorry. Thank you.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'd like, as a matter of fact, the witness to

2 answer this question.

3 Please complete your answer, Mr. Selca. You said you were not

4 there.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. I was not at

6 the place where this happened and the time when it happened. But

7 according to the words, I heard rumours from people who told me about the

8 wounding of Azem Gashi.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Now, the end of this report reads as follows: "I

10 received this information directly from the aforementioned person."

11 And you added to that: "But the wounded man himself knows the

12 exact time at which the incident took place."

13 This suggests - at least, this report suggests - that you received

14 this information not from rumours but from the person mentioned there,

15 which is Azem Gashi.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But in the beginning I got the

17 information from citizens. But in the meantime, I contacted Azem Gashi

18 and this person sometimes admits it, sometimes denies it.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And did you ever --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if the -- the answer

21 was unclear or clear to you. Sometimes he said, "I have been wounded by

22 Ramush." Sometimes he said, "No, I was wounded by" -- somebody else. So

23 the information I received from him, I wrote it there. But in the

24 meantime, he changed his mind.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer, Mr. Selca.

1 Mr. Emmerson.

2 Mr. Emmerson is counsel for Mr. Haradinaj and who -- he'll now

3 cross-examine you.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.

5 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Just one moment.

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:

8 Q. Mr. Selca, I want to start by asking you some questions about

9 Sanije Balaj. When you were answering questions to Mr. Re, the gentleman

10 on the other side of the court, you mentioned something about Malisheve in

11 connection with the case of Sanije Balaj. Can you just elaborate on what

12 that was that you had in mind.

13 A. When I spoke about Sanije going to Malisheve, she was a person who

14 was a trader. She went to Malisheve for trading purposes. And I don't

15 know any further about her background or anything else. I'm not of her

16 age. I did not know her personally, but I heard these things from

17 individual citizens.

18 Q. Thank you. You mentioned a suggestion of rape in relation to

19 Sanije Balaj, and you said that -- that in the end it was understood that

20 it was carried out by people that the Tribunal would be aware of.

21 I just want to see if -- if I can ask you a little more about that

22 answer. In the witness statement that you made about the Sanije Balaj

23 incident, if I can just read to you what you said. And I want to see if

24 it helps you at all in your recollection. You -- just -- just bear with

25 me for a moment.

1 Let me just read to you a passage from your statement. You said

2 this:

3 "One military police officer from the village of Vranoc told me

4 about this incident. I cannot remember his first name, but I'm sure his

5 family name is Ukaj. He had been on patrol together with Avni Krasniqi,

6 father's name Kadri; Iber Krasniqi, father's name Tale" -- T-a-l-e -- "and

7 a third officer whom I cannot remember. They were all military police

8 officers. Avni's and Iber's fathers are brothers, so they are cousins to

9 each other. Near the river Bistrice in the village of Vranoc they met a

10 female, family name Balaj from the village Lower Strellc. Avni Krasniqi

11 had stopped the female and taken her somewhere nearby. There he raped her

12 and afterwards killed her by shooting her with his handgun. After this,

13 Avni Krasniqi forced Ukaj to shoot one round at the already deceased body.

14 This, he stated, was done to involve Ukaj in the case and prevent him from

15 talking. They had seen two young shepherds nearby and together with them

16 dug a grave and buried the body."

17 Now, that -- that is a passage from your witness statement. Can

18 you tell us, please, where you got that information from about

19 Avni Krasniqi having raped and shot Sanije Balaj.

20 A. I can't remember exactly the names of the persons, but I know that

21 a book that has been written and published, not by me but by other people,

22 the names of the persons who raped her and killed her are there, and then

23 forced the two shepherds to bury her.

24 It was late in the evening when one of these people involved came

25 to me and told me about what happened. A few days later the brother of

1 the late woman came to look for her sister -- for his sister. He came to

2 the barracks --

3 Q. Just pause, because I'm going to ask you about the brother coming

4 in in a minute or two. What I want to understand now: In this witness

5 statement, you describe somebody called Ukaj coming to you and telling you

6 that Avni Krasniqi had raped and shot Sanije Balaj and that another man,

7 called Ukaj, had been forced to shoot a round of ammunition into the body

8 by Avni so that Avni could implicate him as well. That's what you wrote

9 in your witness statement.

10 I just wondered where you got that information from. That -- that

11 particular piece of information. Do we understand that it came from --

12 A. First of all, I apologise, I did not give this statement. I took

13 this statement from the statement maker. And that's what he told me,

14 because this is not what I said.

15 Q. Fair enough. I understand that. But you were shown earlier on by

16 Mr. Re a statement which had the names of Ahmet Ukaj and others on it

17 which gives a different account, and what I'm interested in: This comes

18 from your statement where you have recorded being told that Avni raped and

19 shot her and then one of the Ukajs was forced to shoot her body too. And

20 it's the information about the involvement of Avni in raping and shooting

21 her that I'm interested in.

22 Where did you get that information from to be able to put it into

23 the statement that you gave to the Prosecution?

24 A. To tell you the truth, I can't remember the exact person who gave

25 me this information; however, I remember that it was late in the evening

1 and the brother of the said woman came to me to the barracks and asked

2 whether I knew where his sister was. I said that she's not here, but he

3 insisted and he wanted to know where his sister was. I said, "I know one

4 thing, that she had been traveling from Decan to Malisheve for getting

5 supplies and it's possible she went to Malisheve for business purposes."

6 Later on, I heard that she had been eliminated close to Vranoc village.

7 And I don't have anything further to add to this case.

8 Q. Thank you. You -- you mentioned Shaban Balaj coming to speak to

9 you. Again, I want -- just want to put a short passage of your witness

10 statement to you. It reads as follows:

11 "Some two weeks after this, Shaban Balaj came to me and asked me

12 if his sister, Sanije Balaj, had been arrested because she was missing and

13 villagers said she had been taken by the military police. Even though I

14 knew what had happened, I didn't tell him. I only informed him that she

15 wasn't arrested."

16 Can I ask you: Do you remember having a conversation with

17 Shaban Balaj where you chose not to tell him what you knew?

18 A. Yes, that's correct that I had the information that Sanije had

19 been interred close to Bistrice by some shepherds. But it was the time of

20 war. People were armed, and I didn't want to cause even worse things.

21 Q. No, I understand. You also say in your statement that if you

22 remember correctly, he - that is, Shaban Balaj - "managed to recover the

23 body after the war and the family reburied it in their village."

24 Can you help us as to where you got that information from?

25 A. I received the information from the shepherds of Vranoc village.

1 They told me how they were ordered by some persons to go and get shovels

2 and picks and to cover the body of the late woman.

3 Q. Very well. Let me move on, please, to the cases of -- of Nurije

4 and Istref Krasniqi. You -- you mentioned a man called Naser Kuqi. And

5 the translation that we received was that he was a courier. Am I right in

6 thinking Naselje Kuqi was a postman or a mailman of some kind?

7 A. Yes. The correct answer is that Naser Kuqi was from my village

8 and during the war he lived in Turjake. But because I had some

9 obligations in my office, he was my personal courier.

10 Q. I see. I understand, then.

11 Just confirm for us, please: The information you got from him,

12 that was information that he had got from somebody else, wasn't it?

13 A. This information he had heard from some citizens, from some

14 villagers from Turjake, and he -- in the morning he told me that Nurije

15 and Istref are missing, they have been kidnapped.

16 Q. Yes. Just to be clear, that -- the -- do you know the names of

17 the people he got the information from specifically now?

18 A. No, I don't. I don't remember them. At that time, I -- I knew

19 them, but because I did not write them down, I have forgotten them.

20 Q. Now, the -- the next matter I just want to check with you: You

21 were asked some questions about Zenun Gashi and the time that you saw him.

22 I just want to put one proposition to you from your witness statement in

23 connection with that. You say in your witness statement that you went to

24 see Zenun's family and his wife. I'm sorry, let me put the quotation

25 again. You said: "I went to see Zenun's family, and his wife told me

1 that a group of soldiers had abducted him from their house the same

2 morning that I saw him in the vehicle."

3 Is that correct?

4 A. Yes, it's correct. I met Zenun in the car --

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. -- together with some soldiers. The said asked for some water, and

7 I made it possible to have some water for him.

8 Q. Forgive me. I -- all I wanted to clarify with you was that when

9 you spoke to the wife, she told you that it was the same day you'd seen

10 him that he had been taken. That's the point. And you've confirmed that,

11 so I will leave the question there.

12 A. Correct. Correct. He had been taken that day early in the

13 morning, about 8.00 to 9.00.

14 Q. Thank you. And --

15 A. You're welcome.

16 Q. -- one other -- one other matter on documents. Mr. Re showed you

17 a notebook and asked you about some entries in it. And it was a notebook

18 that had your name on the front. And at one point in your answers, you

19 said the notebook was in the office and people could come in and write in

20 it. Is that correctly understood?

21 A. I think that every note that I have written down, I accept them as

22 mine. But at that time we did not have enough paper, so maybe some people

23 used my personal notebook for their own notes. However, everything that I

24 have written, I will accept it as mine without taking into consideration

25 the consequences.

1 Q. Sometimes when notes appear in that notebook, you have a name, a

2 first name, followed by a name in brackets, followed by a second name.

3 Can I just be clear. When you put the name in brackets, does that refer

4 to the name of the father?

5 A. Correct, father's names, yes.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. EMMERSON: I wonder if we could just go into private session

8 for a moment, please.

9 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into private session.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

18 MR. EMMERSON: That -- that concludes my cross-examination.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith, who's

22 counsel for Mr. Balaj.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

24 Q. Mr. Selca, when you were speaking with Shaban Balaj concerning the

25 disappearance of his sister, he told you that at the time she was carrying

1 a considerable sum of money with her, about 2.000 Deutschmarks; right?

2 A. Yes, that's correct. That's what he told me. But it didn't occur

3 to me that I had to say it.

4 Q. And he also discussed with you the fact that she perhaps had

5 rejected the attention or attractions of certain men who were with her

6 that day; right?

7 A. I would like to say only this: That the night in question when

8 Shaban's sister did not report home, he came to Baran to my house and

9 asked me. At that time I was at home. And he said, "Is my sister

10 arrested? I think that my sister has been stopped by KLA forces." And I

11 said to him, "Let's go to the barracks and see."

12 We went there and we saw that she had not been stopped by the KLA

13 forces.

14 Q. Did you ever find any money that had been with her according to

15 her brother, Shaban, the two to three thousand Deutschmarks?

16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon, did you say 3.000 Deutschmarks?

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Two to three thousand Deutschmarks.

18 A. Keeping in mind the fact that I, as a member of the KLA, did not

19 have the right to search anyone how much money they had, I don't know how

20 much money she had on herself.

21 Q. During the time that this matter was being discussed and being

22 investigated, were you aware of the fact that there was a trial involving

23 Mete Krasniqi and a number of members of his family where the imam from

24 Vranoc, Imam Luqman came, and there was a trial under the Kanun to make a

25 determination of who was responsible for this death?

1 A. During the said time, I did not have any information or knowledge

2 about the case, but the citizens suspected that this had -- was something

3 that had been done by people who were not members of the KLA.

4 Q. Under the Kanun, are you aware of -- we've heard evidence here

5 before from the brother of Sanije concerning the matter where there is --

6 excuse me, Mr. Selca. Excuse me.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Selca.

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Let me finish, please.

9 JUDGE ORIE: One second.

10 First listen to the question.

11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH:

13 Q. That where the body is not found, the requirement is that where

14 there's no body, there are two blood debts that are incurred.

15 A. To tell you the truth, I am 52 years old but I know these things

16 very well. However, after this happened, I was informed that night and I

17 said this even earlier, because I was informed --

18 Q. My -- my question is under -- I'm asking a question about -- since

19 you say you know these things well, under the Kanun, as a matter of Kanun

20 law, where the body is not returned, is the result of that that two blood

21 debts are owed? I mean, you can answer that question "yes" or "no."

22 A. Yes, that's correct. However, we are speaking about true justice

23 and not the Kanun here.

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you. Those are my questions.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.

1 MR. HARVEY: I have no questions. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, any questions triggered by the

3 cross-examination?

4 MR. RE: Just --

5 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking you whether you have any questions but

6 whether any questions triggered by cross-examination.

7 MR. RE: -- just in relation to the investigation of

8 Sanije Balaj --

9 Re-examination by Mr. Re:

10 Q. You were asked some questions. Was there a policeman named Faton

11 Mehmetaj involved in that?

12 A. No. I know Faton. I knew him during the war. But I have not

13 seen him ever since, but I don't think he was involved, as far as I know.

14 Q. What was his -- what was his role, then?

15 MR. EMMERSON: Just -- just bear with me, please. I don't think

16 there were any questions about an investigation. I don't think these

17 questions arise out of cross-examination.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you are speaking about

19 Faton Mehmetaj, he called himself a security officer.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, where do we find the question?

21 MR. RE: I thought it was an investigation. If just -- if I could

22 just ask this one question about that, and if it -- anything -- it

23 triggers anything, I have no objection to Mr. Emmerson asking a follow-up.

24 JUDGE ORIE: No. No, but that's -- it's not how to extend the

25 examination of the witness but how to finish it.

1 So if you can indicate where such a question was put, then so --

2 to the extent the cross-examination has triggered the question, then I'll

3 easily --

4 MR. RE: Well, it triggered it in my mind. It may be of

5 assistance to the Trial Chamber to find out whether this witness was aware

6 of the role of Mr. Mehmetaj in the military police and who he was

7 reporting to.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You've got one minute --

9 MR. RE: Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: -- if you do not give us the question. Please

11 proceed.

12 MR. RE:

13 Q. You said Faton Mehmetaj called himself a security officer. Who

14 was he reporting to? He was a security officer for who?

15 A. Without trying to politicise the army, I think that there were

16 certain volunteer groups that had two or three commands. However, Faton

17 was from Gllogjan, municipality of Decan. He served as an officer,

18 according to his own words and to the words of other people. He worked in

19 the sector for security and information.

20 Q. For who? You said he was from Glodjane. Did he work from

21 somewhere in Glodjane?

22 A. As a matter of fact, I was not aware, because he very rarely came

23 to the area where I lived. I met him several times. We greeted each

24 other. But I don't know the reasons for his travels or what he was doing

25 exactly.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Are those your questions, Mr. Re?

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Chamber will adjourn for one or two minutes

4 for reasons to be explained after we return.

5 --- Break taken at 6.31 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 6.33 p.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Selca, you have concluded your testimony in this

8 case. You are in The Hague not only as a witness, but you were also an

9 accused in a contempt case.

10 Now, the Office of the Prosecutor has filed a motion seeking

11 approval of the Chamber competent to hear the contempt case, which

12 actually is the Chamber composed of the same Judges as you see here,

13 consent to withdraw the indictment against you.

14 To the extent -- since you are here, it would be very impractical

15 to call you back tomorrow and to inform you about the decision in that

16 case, and therefore, although it is not part of the case in which you just

17 testified, you are hereby informed that a decision was taken on that

18 motion to -- in which leave to withdraw the indictment was asked for.

19 That motion is granted. That means that the Prosecution may now withdraw

20 the indictment against you.

21 And in that situation, you're also informed that you will be

22 released immediately after the required travel documents are obtained and

23 the necessary practical arrangements are made by the Registry. This is

24 just a practical way of informing you, although it has got not directly to

25 do with the testimony you gave here.

1 The Prosecution is hereby also informed about the decision taken

2 by the contempt Chamber.

3 Mr. Selca, I'd like to thank you for having given testimony in

4 this court. You are aware that still practical arrangements have to be

5 made, travel documents have to be obtained, but most likely the

6 Prosecution will now withdraw the indictment against you, because they

7 sought leave for that.

8 Then you may follow Madam Usher who will escort you out of the

9 courtroom.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dieckmann, this concludes your role, which has

13 been a role with a lot of silence. Nevertheless, it was appreciated that

14 you were here.

15 MR. DIECKMANN: Thank you, Mr. President. And I would like to say

16 on behalf of my client that we highly appreciate that the Chamber and all

17 parties make it possible to give my client a chance to give testimony

18 here. Thank you very much.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, your client himself decided that he would give

20 testimony. And if he might have felt encouraged by what happened before,

21 then that was not the -- the sole purpose of these activities. But thank

22 you for your words.

23 Mr. Re, are you ready to call the next witness? Who is

24 Mr. Versonnen, take it? Because I have to inform you that where we had in

25 mind that possibly there would be a videolink still this afternoon,

1 that our most recent information - but you see the information comes by

2 the minute - but let me just read what the newest information is.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's -- the parties are informed that there was

5 no way to establish a videolink until well after 7.00 and the Chamber sees

6 no possibility to even start inquiring into whether in that videolink we

7 could receive the testimony of a witness.

8 The Chamber will further consider the matter over the coming days.

9 Of course, this will have effect as well on another matter.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ORIE: There is, of course, a related issue about a

12 videolink which was requested for Tuesday, the 20th of November. And I'm

13 especially addressing you, Mr. Harvey. We have heard about your concerns.

14 We have also heard about your -- some -- some problems, which we do not

15 envy you to have some of these problems, but the decision of the Chamber

16 is that that request for videolink where we earlier said that the

17 Prosecution could move on to prepare, that request for videolink for

18 Tuesday, the 20th of November is granted.

19 I just give the decision at this moment, reasons to follow in

20 writing or orally, but it's important that everyone is informed about

21 decisions, first of all.

22 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, the -- the only matter that gives me

23 some pause still is that you said at line 98 -- at page 98, line 2 that

24 the Chamber will further consider the matter over the coming days. That's

25 in relation to the videolink.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is whether there is at all time available

2 to hear the testimony of that witness, so whether we'll move in the

3 direction of receiving that testimony at all.

4 And I'm now talking about the witness who was for today.

5 MR. HARVEY: I understand.

6 JUDGE ORIE: While not scheduled in the videolink but considered

7 in the videolink.

8 MR. HARVEY: Well, I'll have to watch this space.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 Mr. Re --

11 Mr. Versonnen, first of all, welcome. You may have been waiting

12 the whole of the afternoon. We are sorry for that.

13 Mr. Versonnen, you are still bound by the solemn declaration you

14 have given at the beginning of your testimony.

15 Mr. Re.

16 MR. RE: The 92 ter summary I wish to read is this --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Is there an agreement on what is in the 92 ter

18 statement?

19 MR. RE: Well, it's -- no.

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: No.

21 MR. RE: Because the disagreement, I understand, was about

22 paragraphs 14, 15, and 16. I'm not aware of the -- what the -- the ambit

23 of the decision is in relation to Witness 1. I'm not aware of -- I'm not

24 quite sure about guidance from the Trial Chamber as to whether I could

25 actually ask the witness about what was said in relation to paragraph 15.

1 JUDGE ORIE: If there's disagreement on that, the Chamber invites

2 you to elicit -- and I think that can be done in a relatively short

3 time -- to elicit the evidence contained in paragraphs 14, 15, and 16 viva

4 voce.

5 I further could inform you that -- I just have to find it.

6 I further have to inform you that paragraphs 18 and 19 mainly

7 explain why the investigator did something, which does not assist the

8 Chamber to the extent reference is made to what the witness stated at the

9 time. We can read that in the statement itself.

10 So therefore, 14 up to and including 19 are to be elicited viva

11 voce. And we do not encourage you to elicit 17 and 18.

12 WITNESS: ROEL VERSONNEN [Resumed]

13 Examination by Mr. Re: [Continued]

14 Q. Mr. Versonnen --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MR. GUY-SMITH: If -- if I might for purposes of -- looking at the

17 clock, I have a sneaking suspicion that we will not be calling

18 Mr. Versonnen back. Will that -- will we be doing that?

19 JUDGE ORIE: No, we'll try to finish the testimony of

20 Mr. Versonnen today.

21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, we'll see how it goes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We ...

23 MR. RE:

24 Q. Okay. Mr. Versonnen, in your statement, you refer to showing

25 Witness 1 some photoboards which -- a photoboard. Just tell the Trial

1 Chamber what you did. It was on the 15th and 16th of October, 2002.

2 A. I remember I showed him a photo spreadsheet containing pictures of

3 eight male individuals. And I asked him if he -- if he was able to

4 recognise any of the persons displayed on this photo spreadsheet.

5 Q. Where were you when you did that?

6 A. I was -- I was standing next -- next to the -- to this witness in

7 between the witness and the interpreter, as far as I can remember.

8 Q. Was there anybody else with you apart from the witness and the

9 interpreter?

10 A. No. No, there was nobody else.

11 Q. Okay. Where -- what was the physical location of your showing him

12 the photoboard?

13 A. It was in a -- an office of the Barane police station.

14 Q. I just want to show you 65 ter Exhibit number 117 and ask you

15 whether that is the photoboard which you showed the witness.

16 Is that the photo board in question?

17 A. Yes, that's the one.

18 Q. What -- what did you say to the witness when you showed it to him?

19 A. Only if he was able to -- I'm not sure if I'm put -- recognise or

20 identify any of the individuals whose photos were displayed on this

21 spreadsheet.

22 Q. What did the witness say or do?

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: At this time, before Mr. Versonnen responds to

24 that question, I would interpose an objection. It is the same objection

25 that was interposed which forms the basis of our 92 quater response. It

1 is hearsay. The gentleman in question is no longer alive. We have no way

2 of cross-examining this person whatsoever. And it --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- it poses all of the problems --

5 JUDGE ORIE: That's --

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: It poses all of the problems that were raised in

7 the previous motion.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that you'll not be surprised where

9 the -- where the Chamber, especially in relation to this event, has

10 decided - although you have not yet received the written decision - to --

11 to deny the objection --

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I --

13 JUDGE ORIE: -- under specific that the same ruling applies here.

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: I gather --

15 JUDGE ORIE: It's on the record.

16 MR. GUY-SMITH: I gathered that was the case.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The objection is denied.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Re.

19 MR. RE:

20 Q. The question was: What did Witness 1 do or say when you showed

21 him the photo board?

22 A. He looked at it and immediately pointed out the person as

23 mentioned in the statement.

24 Q. Well, what -- you said a person as pointed out in the statement.

25 Did he -- just tell the Trial Chamber what he did in terms of pointing out

1 the person in the statement?

2 A. Well, he -- he identified the person he was -- I don't know if I

3 can reveal the -- the nickname of the person.

4 Q. Very much so.

5 A. Okay. He was also talking about the person called Toger and he

6 pointed out the photo of individual with number 6 as being this so-called

7 Toger.

8 Q. You said he was -- I heard the words "very -- always talking," but

9 it's recorded on the transcript as "also talking." Did you say "always

10 talking" or "also talking" about the person called Toger?

11 A. No, when talking about this person, he was always referring to

12 this person with the name Toger.

13 Q. What do you mean by "always"? What --

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Just for purposes, so I don't break Mr. Re's flow,

17 could I have a continuing objection to any statements that were made by

18 the decedent regarding --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's understood, Mr. Guy-Smith, that whatever

20 this witness says, Witness 1 says, that it's objected to. And that

21 objection is -- although not yet for the future, but is denied until now.

22 And if that changes, we'll let you know.

23 Please proceed.

24 MR. RE:

25 Q. Your use of the words "always," just explain to the Trial Chamber

1 the witness's -- Witness 1's use of the word "always" -- we're talking

2 about your use of the word "always" when you spoke about Toger?

3 A. Well, throughout the interview, he mentioned this name as the

4 perpetrator he was talking about.

5 Q. You said -- Mr. Guy-Smith is on his feet.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. -- the word "always" causes no problems to

7 the Chamber.

8 Please proceed.

9 MR. RE:

10 Q. When you -- what did you do with the -- did he make any notations

11 on the photo board -- I don't think we've got a number for that, Your

12 Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please assign a number for

14 the -- for the document, eight persons, photo-spread which is on the

15 screen now.

16 THE REGISTRAR: That would be MFI P1230, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Re.

19 MR. RE:

20 Q. Did you ask him to make any notations on the --

21 MR. GUY-SMITH: At this point, I object to leading. He can say

22 what he did.

23 MR. RE: Well, there's a short way of long way of doing it. I

24 mean, he's an experienced police officer.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please choose the short way, Mr. Re.

1 MR. RE: Fine.

2 Q. Did you ask him to make any notations on the Exhibit P1 -- 2130? ?

3 A. No, I did not.

4 Q. Why not?

5 A. Because besides this document, the second one was -- the one

6 together -- was together with this document was identifying the names or

7 mentioning the names of the other male individuals on this photo

8 spreadsheet, and I didn't deem it professional to have these names

9 disclosed to this witness.

10 Q. And is number 6 the accused Idriz Balaj?

11 A. That -- that was what -- according to the identification sheet of

12 the photo spreadsheet, yes.

13 MR. RE: Nothing further.

14 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions.

15 Then just to get things straight, are there any objections against

16 the 92 ter statement as it's there up till this moment, paragraphs 1

17 through 13?

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: There are not.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And 20 through 22?

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I had previously indicated that paragraph 20 has

21 within it an implied statement of the decedent. As to the extent it

22 refers to the investigator notes and --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- to the extent the investigator notes have any

25 statement from the decedent, yes. There is an objection to 20.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Objections by the other Defence counsel, 1

2 through 13 and 20 to 22?

3 Mr. Emmerson, not?

4 MR. EMMERSON: My objection was confined to paragraph 19.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes Mr. --

6 MR. HARVEY: I have nothing further on that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Nothing further on that.

8 We'll decide at a later stage about admission.

9 Would it be you, Mr. Guy-Smith, who cross-examines the witness

10 first?

11 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe so.

12 JUDGE ORIE: And I think you said 20 minutes or ...?

13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I did.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's try to finish, then, in 20 minutes. I

15 see some positive responses from the booth.

16 I'll strictly adhere to the 20 minutes.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

19 Q. Mr. Versonnen, I'm -- I'm going to try to do this very quickly.

20 If you would listen to my question. Most of the questions I will ask you,

21 you can probably answer "yes" and "no" -- "yes" or "no." If you need to

22 explain in any answer, please take the opportunity to do so. But if you'd

23 kindly just initially answer the question "yes" or "no," I think that

24 could get us through a bit quicker.

25 A. Okay.

1 Q. You joined the ICTY as an investigator in 1998, did you not?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. During that time, when you first joined in 1998, you were part of

4 a team that included your team leader of Mr. Raatikainen. Also on the

5 team when you joined was a gentleman by the name of Pekka Haverinen;

6 right?

7 A. Not correct, sir. Mr. Haverinen was not part of the team in 1998,

8 as far as I remember. He joined later.

9 Q. When -- when you were involved in the investigation of Mr. Balaj,

10 a photo board was compiled or a set of photo boards were compiled which

11 your team was going to use for purposes of making identification

12 interviews; correct?

13 A. That's correct, sir.

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could please have P364 brought up onto the

15 screen.

16 Q. I'm showing you in a moment, when it comes up, what has been

17 marked as P364. This is a set of photo boards. There are three in number

18 that were compiled by your team for purposes of investigation; correct?

19 A. Well, it bears a ERN number, so it -- I suppose it is correct.

20 The -- I don't recognise the document as such.

21 Q. When you say you don't recognise the document as such, do you

22 recall that a set of photo boards was put together, three in number, for

23 purposes of this investigation?

24 A. That, I cannot remember, sir. I'm sorry.

25 Q. If you would take a look at P364.

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: And if the registrar would be kind enough to go

2 through each one of those pictures.

3 Q. Looking at those pictures, does that refresh your recollection

4 with regard to the question asked of whether a set of three photo boards

5 was compiled for purposes of this investigation?

6 A. I -- I really cannot remember this, sir.

7 Q. Very well. If you could confirm just for us with regard to the

8 set of three photo boards that there are sequential ERN numbers of

9 U0157619 through U0157621.

10 Can you confirm that, sir?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. With regard to the photo boards, to your knowledge

13 were the set of photo boards that were compiled for purposes of the

14 investigation, how many photo boards were there?

15 A. I really don't know, sir. And -- and for the record, I wasn't

16 involved in the compilation of these photo boards.

17 Q. Could you --

18 A. I believe they were done by a colleague of mine, but, again, I'm

19 not sure about it.

20 Q. That would have been Haverinen, would it not?

21 A. That could have been Mr. Haverinen, yes.

22 Q. We've heard testimony from Mr. Haverinen that P364 which is the

23 set of photo boards before you is a set that was compiled for the purpose

24 of this investigation. My question to you is: Did you independently have

25 an additional photo board made or go out and have any other kind of photo

1 board made for purposes of your specific investigation with the decedent?

2 A. No, I had not.

3 Q. Could you tell us where you obtained the photo board that you used

4 with your interview for identification purposes, as you've told us, with

5 the decedent.

6 A. Well, I received it while -- while we were on this mission from --

7 from one of my colleagues, who must have been -- or Mr. Haverinen or

8 Mr. Raatikainen.

9 Q. As you sit here today, you can't recall that.

10 A. No. I'm -- I'm not sure. But it must have been one of the two

11 mentioned colleagues.

12 Q. Before you became an officer working here at the ICTY, had you

13 engaged in a photo board procedures? And by that I mean, had you engaged

14 in an identification process in your domestic country?

15 A. Yes. I -- I have.

16 Q. And during that period of time, did you receive training with

17 regard to some of the concerns that exist in terms of the kinds of

18 procedures that should be followed with regard to identification

19 procedures because of the danger that is implied in eyewitness

20 identification?

21 A. Not that I can remember.

22 Q. And how long were you a police officer before you started working

23 here at the ICTY?

24 A. I was a police officer since 1986.

25 Q. And could you tell us how many times you engaged in photo board

1 identification procedures before you came to the ICTY.

2 A. It's hard to say, but maybe on five to ten occasions.

3 Q. Before you came to the ICTY, were you aware of concerns that

4 existed in the justice system internationally concerning wrongful

5 convictions based upon misidentification of individuals?

6 A. No, I -- I -- I am not. I was not.

7 Q. You were not.

8 A. No.

9 Q. When you came to the ICTY, were you made aware of the presence of

10 guide-lines that existed for purposes of engaging in photo board

11 identification procedure, and in that regard I should tell you we have

12 heard testimony that members of your team had received such information.

13 A. Well, I -- as far as I can remember, when I joined in 1998 we were

14 subject to -- it's called an induction course. And through that induction

15 course, we received a copy of the -- of the Rules of Procedure and

16 Evidence.

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we please have D119 brought up on the

18 screen.

19 Q. Were you aware of the identification guide-lines that had been

20 promulgated by the Office of the ICTY before your arrival here in 1998?

21 A. I don't think so, sir.

22 Q. Have you seen the guide-lines that are before you? Ever.

23 A. I -- I cannot remember.

24 Q. Okay. With regard to reports that are -- were supposed to be

25 filled out when engaging in a photo board identification procedure, were

1 you given any guidance or material concerning such a report?

2 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I would ask that D120 be brought up on the

3 screen.

4 Q. Looking at D120, the document is entitled "Photo board

5 identification procedure report." The first line indicates "the name of

6 the ICTY investigator conducting the procedure." And it follows from

7 there.

8 A. I could -- I cannot remember this -- this document.

9 Q. Okay. I'd like you to take a look at page 2 of the document and

10 specifically at paragraph 9 of that document. And I'd like to ask you:

11 Independent of whether or not you have ever seen this specific report or

12 whether you have no memory of it, whether or not during the time you were

13 with your team a discussion was had that it would be important for a

14 photocopy of the photo board, whatever number it was, to be signed by the

15 witness, the interpreter, and the investigator adjacent to the photograph

16 that has been identified.

17 A. Now, again, as far as I can remember, this was never discussed in

18 the team, but the reason why it wasn't initialed by the witness and the

19 interpreter was, as I explained before; I didn't want to disclose the

20 names of the other individuals on this attachment to nor the witness nor

21 the interpreter.

22 Q. Well, I appreciate your answer, but -- but please do help us, if

23 you could. Looking at P -- at what has been marked for identification as

24 P1230, that exhibit consists of two pages with sequential ERN numbers of

25 U0031022 and then a second page, which is independent, which has what I

1 believe to be the names of the individuals, which is the page that you're

2 concerned about.

3 My question to you, sir, is: You did not follow, obviously,

4 paragraph 9 with regard to the actual photocopy of the photo board, which

5 is P1230; right?

6 A. I did so for the reason I explained before.

7 Q. That's not my question. You didn't -- you didn't do that; right?

8 There's no information contained on this particular photo board which is

9 memorialised so that the Chamber or finder of fact has an independent

10 ability to make a determination of the accuracy of the statement that

11 you've made here with regard to the decedent pointing at a photograph.

12 There's no mark. There's no signature.

13 A. No. But it's incorporated into the statement which is signed by

14 the witness.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Mr. Guy-Smith, why not put this to the

16 witness. It's -- it's clear that there's no signature, that there's --

17 otherwise, it would have presented to us, I take it, by the Prosecution.

18 If this is the -- what is attached to a statement, then if there's no --

19 nothing on it, then it's not there. So -- so certainly interesting to

20 see, but hardly of any use to ask the witness. I mean, it would be

21 surprising if he says it's there, where we can't see it.

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, maybe he -- maybe he used invisible ink.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. If we would litigate on the basis of such

24 assumptions, Mr. Guy-Smith, then I'm afraid that we should reserve another

25 two years.

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. GUY-SMITH:

3 Q. Going back to D119 for the moment, which are the identification

4 guide-lines. Did you factually obtain any information concerning the

5 physical description - and by that I mean weight, height, hair colour,

6 facial hair, any remarkable characteristics - of the individual that the

7 decedent was referring to?

8 A. That, I -- that, I cannot remember.

9 Q. Okay. Did you make any notes with regard to where you were

10 standing, where the witness was, and where the interpreter was at the time

11 that you engaged in the photo board procedure?

12 A. No, I did not. The only notes I took are reflected in this

13 specific statement.

14 Q. I -- I note that the -- that the photograph of Mr. Balaj is in

15 position 6 in P1230. Do you know how his photograph came to be in that

16 position on that particular photo board?

17 A. No, I don't know.

18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You are now speaking of which photo board, please?

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: 1230, the photo board which is part of the

20 documents that are attached to Mr. Versonnen's 92 ter.

21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: One of the three; yes?

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, only one.

23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes.

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: The --

25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Only one.

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: The other documents were in P364, which is --

2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes.

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- a set of photo boards.

4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, I -- thank you.

5 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- that were compiled by Mr. Haverinen.

6 Q. Before you spoke with the decedent, were you aware of the fact

7 that Mr. Balaj's likeness had been spread over the television and in

8 newsprint as a result of his involvement as a defendant in what has been

9 called the Dukagjin Trial?

10 A. I cannot recall that now.

11 Q. As you sit here today, you have no memory of having information

12 that Mr. Balaj had been involved as a defendant in the Dukagjin Trial.

13 A. No, I -- I said that at that moment when I met the witness, I -- I

14 don't know. But I -- I heard about this trial that you mentioned. But I

15 don't know when I heard about it.

16 Q. Well, prior -- prior to your investigation, and specifically your

17 interview with -- with the decedent, you gathered as much information as

18 you could with regard to Idriz Balaj because, among other things, you were

19 concerned as to whether or not Idriz Balaj was involved in any of the

20 matters that you were investigating; correct?

21 A. I cannot remember that, sir, because I was also involved in other

22 investigations.

23 Q. I see. Were you tasked to speak to the decedent by your team

24 leader, Mr. Raatikainen?

25 A. I believe so, yes.

1 Q. And the time that you were tasked to speak with the decedent, was

2 there a discussion concerning the -- the importance of meeting with this

3 individual and discussing what information he could give to you?

4 A. Not at my recollection, sir.

5 Q. Okay. Did you keep any notes independent of the reports that you

6 wrote concerning your contact with the decedent? Any notes, personal

7 notes that you memorialised, or rough notes with regard to your contact

8 with the decedent, specifically with regard to the photo-spread procedure

9 that you engaged in?

10 A. No. No, I did not.

11 Q. And finally, with regard to the identification procedure, was

12 anyone else present apart from yourself, the decedent, and the

13 interpreter?

14 A. No, nobody else was present.

15 Q. And when you were speaking to the decedent, you were speaking to

16 the decedent through the interpreter; correct?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. There was no point in time when you and the decedent were speaking

19 together --

20 A. No.

21 Q. -- in a language that you both commonly shared.

22 A. No. The witness only spoke Albanian.

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

25 Any questions, Mr. Harvey?

1 Any questions, Mr. Emmerson?

2 Any need to re-examine the witness, Mr. Re?

3 Mr. Versonnen, this concludes your testimony. Often I say "I

4 would like to thank you for coming a long way to The Hague," but it may

5 not have been that long for you.

6 Nevertheless, thank you for answering questions that were put to

7 you. You are excused.

8 THE WITNESS: You're welcome, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

10 MR. EMMERSON: One line, if I may. Before the day ends, may I

11 formally tender D220, which was marked for identification during the

12 testimony of Avni Krasniqi yesterday.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are -- yes, that's formally tendered.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Now, we'll not deal with it at this very moment,

16 because it's quarter past 7.00, which means that the interpreters,

17 technicians, transcribers, security have done a great job today. It's due

18 to them that we could finish our programme today.

19 We adjourn until Tuesday, the 20th of November - at least, as

20 matters stand now - Tuesday, the 20th of November, quarter past 2.00,

21 Courtroom III.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.15 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 20th day of

24 November, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.

25