Page 1495
1 Monday, 31 October 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
6 courtroom.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
9 This is case number IT-04-84bis-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Ramush Haradinaj, Idriz Balaj, and Lahi Brahimaj.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Could we have appearances for
12 today, starting with the Prosecution, please.
13 MR. ROGERS: Yes. Good afternoon, Your Honours. Paul Rogers for
14 the Prosecution, together with Ms. Daniela Kravetz, Ms. Priya Gopalan,
15 and our Case Manager this afternoon is Line Pedersen.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Rogers.
17 And for the Defence of Mr. Haradinaj.
18 MR. EMMERSON: For Mr. Haradinaj, Ben Emmerson, together with
19 Rodney Dixon, Annie O'Reilly, and Dan Gadelrab.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Emmerson.
21 And for Mr. Balaj.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Chad Mair,
23 Holly Buchanan. Mr. Zyberi is with us today. I am Gregor Guy-Smith on
24 behalf of Mr. Balaj. Happy Halloween to all in the courtroom.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.
Page 1496
1 And for Mr. Brahimaj.
2 MR. HARVEY: Richard Harvey, assisted by Mr. Paul Troop,
3 Mr. Luke Boenisch, and Ms. Rudina Jasini.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. --
5 MR. HARVEY: Good afternoon.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon. Thank you very much, Mr. Harvey.
7 Mr. Rogers.
8 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour, we'll call Witness 3, please. Can I
9 just flag one issue, just to flag it. I don't think we need a decision
10 right now. It's relating to the cross-examination of this witness.
11 Given the convictions of Mr. Brahimaj, and this witness was the victim in
12 relation to the two counts for which he was convicted, there may be
13 issues as to scope of cross-examination. I don't think we need to deal
14 with it right now. I just wanted to flag it as a possible concern. But
15 at the time I can move straight to call him to give his testimony.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do we call him straight or do we move into closed
17 session?
18 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour, thank you. Yes, closed session first.
19 Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
21 May the Chamber please move into closed session.
22 [Closed session]
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12 [Open session]
13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in open session. Thank you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
16 May the Chamber now please move into private session.
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10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
12 you.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
14 Yes, Mr. Rogers.
15 MR. ROGERS: Thank you.
16 Q. Witness, please remember now that are you in open session and
17 that your -- your account will be broadcast. So when we refer to your
18 village, please, just call it "my village" or "the village."
19 Now, Witness, in relation to your village, can you help us,
20 please, with whether there was any particular political party that was
21 popular in your village?
22 A. Yes. After the overthrow of communism in the former Yugoslavia,
23 the LDK came into existence as a party, and it had the support of the
24 entire population.
25 Q. You refer to population. Are you talking of Kosovo or are you
Page 1502
1 talking of your village in particular?
2 A. I'm talking of my village in particular but also about Kosova in
3 general. Because that was the only party in existence.
4 Q. And who was the leader of that party at the time?
5 A. Dr. Ibrahim Rugova, the late Ibrahim Rugova.
6 Q. And in relation to that party, what was your view about it? Was
7 it something you supported or did not support?
8 A. Yes, yes, I did support the party. Because it was a party in
9 favour of peaceful solution and policy following communists.
10 Q. Can I ask you, please, about the KLA.
11 When was the first time you heard about an army or an
12 organisation known as the KLA, or the UCK?
13 A. It was sometime in 1996, I think.
14 Q. And when was the first time that you were aware of its presence
15 in your village?
16 A. In 1998.
17 Q. Can you help us with a month, please, and ...
18 A. It was sometime in May, I think.
19 Q. Prior to that, had you heard of any of its activities in the area
20 of your village?
21 A. I had heard about it. Because I think in 1997 it was when a Serb
22 officer was killed in Irzniq village. I heard about the news on
23 television and it was reported as being done by KLA. But I'd never seen
24 them myself in uniforms.
25 Q. What was the first occasion that you heard of the KLA in your
Page 1503
1 village, please? Can you explain what those circumstances were?
2 A. At -- in about May, I think, I was not present there, but there
3 was a group that came to my -- there was a group in my village that
4 said -- I'm sorry, but he's saying that there was a group of KLA that
5 came to my village, and then they started to say that there is a KLA and
6 if you want to join it, you can join it.
7 Q. Can you tell us, please, first of all, how you knew that there
8 was a group of KLA that came to the village?
9 A. After two or three days, a villager from my village came to me
10 and asked me to join the KLA, and he explained to me that there was a
11 KLA.
12 Q. Are you able to name that villager without going into private
13 session or would you prefer to go into private session to do that?
14 A. It's better that we go into private session.
15 MR. ROGERS: May we do that, Your Honour.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I have to mention names.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
18 [Private session]
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18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
20 you.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
22 Yes, Mr. Rogers.
23 MR. ROGERS:
24 Q. Witness, I'd just like to show you a map, please. It's in
25 e-court 03076. It will come up on your screen.
Page 1505
1 Do you have it?
2 A. Yes, I see a map.
3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... can you see it very well,
4 because I understand that the screen can be quite difficult to -- to see
5 through, from the witness box; are you able to see the map very clearly?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: If mine could be enlarged a bit.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see the map.
8 MR. ROGERS: I wonder if we could just enlarge it into the
9 centre, please. And there's a -- what appears to be red letter zero or
10 number zero. I wonder if we could just enlarge around there, please.
11 Q. Do you see the red letter zero?
12 A. Yeah, I do.
13 Q. And you see there's a village next to it?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. Is that the village that you're referring to?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours, probably this --
19 Q. Well, can you take a marker, Witness, please, and just put a ring
20 round the village that you've referred to as Jabllanice.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour, could that be an exhibit please.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
25 please be given an exhibit number.
Page 1506
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 3076 marked by
2 witness in court shall be assigned Exhibit P406. Thank you.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
4 MR. ROGERS: Thank you. I think the map can be --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you switch off your mike, please,
6 Mr. Registrar.
7 MR. ROGERS: Thank you, Your Honour. Could the map be taken from
8 the screen, please.
9 Q. Now, you were telling us that the individuals had come from the
10 staff at Jabllanice. Are you able to tell us any -- the names of any of
11 the particular individuals that had come from the staff, and, if so, on
12 what basis did you understand those persons had come from?
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Harvey.
14 MR. HARVEY: I think the matter of which I was concerned has been
15 taken care of by the second part of the question. Perhaps if the witness
16 could give us the basis of his knowledge first and then tell us what his
17 knowledge is.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 Yes, Mr. Rogers.
20 MR. ROGERS: I'll ask the question again.
21 Q. First of all, witness, could you explain how it was that you --
22 from whom it was that you obtained the information relating to who had
23 come from Jabllanice?
24 A. My co-villager who asked me to join the KLA told me that a group
25 has come from Jabllanice with Lahim [as interpreted] and they said that
Page 1507
1 there is an army.
2 Q. Now, you said that a group had come from Jabllanice with -- I
3 think you said with Lahi. It's been noted on the transcript as "Lahim";
4 I think it's "Lahi." Who is Lahi?
5 A. Lahi Brahimaj.
6 Q. Lahi Brahimaj. And --
7 A. Brahimaj.
8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Lahi Brahimaj, yes. And is
9 he somebody that you know?
10 A. Yes, yes, I know him.
11 Q. In 1998, how long had you known Lahi Brahimaj?
12 A. Are you asking me about 1998 or even before?
13 Q. Yes, I'm asking: In 1998, for how long had you known
14 Mr. Brahimaj?
15 A. I knew Lahi Brahimaj since when we were very young.
16 Q. And does his family have any particular relationship with your
17 village? Without naming your village. Does the family have any
18 relationship with your village?
19 A. Yes, yes. Lahi is related a nephew in our village.
20 Q. Now, you were telling us what the co-villager was explaining
21 about how Mr. Brahimaj and the group had come. Can you tell us, please,
22 what they wanted? What did the group want?
23 A. They wanted us to join the KLA because the situation was very,
24 very exacerbated between the Albanians and the Serbs. And they wanted us
25 to defend our homeland, to protect our territories.
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23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
25 you.
Page 1509
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 Yes, Mr. Rogers.
3 MR. ROGERS: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Yes, in May 1999 -- 1998, was there an attack on your village by
5 Serbian forces?
6 A. Yes, there was.
7 Q. Can you help us with the date of that attack, please.
8 A. On the 19th of May, the Serb forces shelled our village and
9 started to enter the village.
10 On the 20th of May, it was calmer. There were fewer shots.
11 On the 21st of May, there were severe shelling -- there was
12 severe shelling, and there were helicopters flying over the village.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, in relation to the visit by Lahi Brahimaj and
14 the others to your village, are you able to help with how close to that
15 attack the visit was, please? In terms of date.
16 A. It was very close. Must have been three or four days between the
17 two.
18 Q. Was it before or after the attack?
19 A. Before the attack.
20 Q. And as a result of that visit, was there any form of organisation
21 of individuals into the KLA to defend the village?
22 A. Yes. We were organised to defend the village, but we did not
23 have sufficient weapons. We didn't have equipment. But we started
24 organising.
25 Q. Whilst the village may have organised, how many -- are you able
Page 1510
1 say how many individuals, in fact, joined the KLA as a result of that
2 visit?
3 A. As a result of the -- of the visit by the KLA, about three or
4 four people, five people at most, joined in the beginning.
5 Q. And what about the remainder of the villagers - I'm talking in
6 particular about the male villagers - what did they do, not having joined
7 the KLA? What was their role?
8 A. They joined the defence of the village, with whatever they could
9 do.
10 Q. And who organised the defence of the village?
11 A. My co-villager that I mentioned early. He was appointed as a
12 sort of commander of the village. Or simply as a leader of the village.
13 Q. And who appointed him?
14 A. As I said, when the group from Jabllanice came and they held that
15 rally, I think that that was when he was appointed the commander.
16 Q. In 1998, were you weapons-trained? Had you received any weapons
17 training yourself? I should say in May 1998.
18 A. No, no. Not only me, but the other villagers as well were not
19 trained in using weapons.
20 Q. Were you called up to do national service in the Yugoslav Army
21 prior to 1998?
22 A. Yes, I was summonsed to go, but I refused to join.
23 Q. So up until the attack on the village in 1998 you hadn't received
24 any weapons training?
25 A. No, I hadn't. I had never used a weapon before.
Page 1511
1 Q. For those of you that were organised to defend the village, what
2 sort of weapons did you have to defend that village with?
3 A. We had some Kalashnikovs and some very simple weapons.
4 Q. By "simple weapons," what sort of things do you mean?
5 A. As I said, Kalashnikovs. Some rifles as well.
6 Q. Did you all have a weapon each or did you have to share? How
7 many were there to go around? Are you able to help?
8 A. Of course, not. There were about 100 people who needed weapons,
9 but there were only about ten or 14 weapons to go around. There were
10 only a few weapons.
11 Q. Prior to the attack on the village by Serbian forces, had there
12 been any sort of organisation of men and women in the village to defend
13 it against the Serbs?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. What sort of --
16 A. There was.
17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... an organisation was that?
18 A. The Serbian police, at the time, was ill-treating the people.
19 There were about 100 families at that time, Albanian families, and they
20 were ill-treated. And whenever one of the families was ill-treated, we
21 tried to help them with medical supplies or anything we could.
22 Q. Had you formed any sort of a village guard or village defence
23 force at that time?
24 A. No, no. There was a village guard, but, however, they did not
25 have weapons. At the time we only had about two or three hunting guns.
Page 1512
1 Q. Did you have any role within the village guard?
2 A. Yes, I did at the time, because the village guard was held at my
3 house. My house is in a very strategic position. It is located in the
4 cross-roads (redacted).
5 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours, could we go into private session,
6 please.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
8 [Private session]
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19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session. Thank you.
21 MR. ROGERS:
22 Q. Witness, you told us that there were only a few individuals that
23 joined the KLA, I think you said up to five people of the many families
24 in the village. Are you able to explain, or can you tell us, why the
25 take-up of joining the KLA was so small as a result of Lahi Brahimaj and
Page 1513
1 his colleagues coming to the village?
2 Can you help us with why only a few people joined the KLA?
3 A. There are reasons. Maybe one of them is because it was a mixed
4 village. There were Serbs in the village. The other one might be
5 because there were not enough weapons to go around. That's why I think
6 not many people engaged at first.
7 Q. Now, you were telling us that there was an attack on the village
8 starting on the 19th of May. Without revealing the location of the
9 village or anything that might identify it, can you tell us, please, what
10 your role was in the defence of that village?
11 A. My role was the same as anybody else's: to open trenches. We
12 were keeping guard. I did not have a weapon. I drove my car, I picked
13 up people, we went to get weapons, because we did not have enough
14 weapons.
15 Q. How were you trying to defend yourself against the shelling of
16 the Serbian forces?
17 A. We were in the trenches.
18 Q. How many points of defence did you have in the village?
19 A. There were three in the front line, in the entrance to the
20 village.
21 Q. Now, you've told us that the attack on the village took place
22 over three days. During the course of that attack, were there any
23 members of the KLA that were within the village?
24 A. Yes, yes, there were. Because after young people got involved
25 and some co-villagers got uniforms from the KLA, KLA people came to train
Page 1514
1 us a little bit, to tell us how to organise ourselves, how to defend
2 ourselves.
3 Q. And did those people stay with you during the course of the
4 attack between the 19th and the 21st?
5 A. Yes. They were there until one soldier got killed on the
6 21st of May.
7 On the 21st of May, they withdrew, together with the killed
8 soldier, and did not come back. I think only one of them returned.
9 Q. And do you know where they went to when they withdrew?
10 A. They said they would withdraw with the victim, the killed person,
11 and they had to leave because they did not even have enough supply of
12 weapons and ammunition. They said they would come back with more but
13 didn't.
14 Q. Do you know where they went to when they left?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Do you know where they had come from? Do you know which village
17 or place they had come from to support you in your village?
18 A. Two of them were from Rokovin [phoen] village. One was from
19 Jabllanice. And then there were our co-villagers, two or three. Or
20 four, I think.
21 Q. Now, during the course of the attack, starting on the
22 19th of May, 1998, did the -- did your villagers all stay in the village,
23 or did some of them leave during the course of the attack, or what
24 happened?
25 A. The families left on the 19th of May when the shelling began.
Page 1515
1 Young people, some of them stayed; the others left with their families
2 and did not come back. The ones that stayed behind, we stayed there
3 until the 21st of May when the Serb infantry began to approach.
4 As I said, there were helicopters flying overhead, helping the
5 infantry, and we did not have enough weapons or ammunition, and we could
6 not confront them in any way.
7 Q. So what did you do when that heavier attack came?
8 A. I got a Kalashnikov then. I was given one. And I stayed on
9 until I finished all my munitions.
10 A soldier was killed in my presence there, and we had to withdraw
11 around 4.00 or 5.00 in the afternoon. I'm not sure what the exact time
12 was.
13 Q. Can you tell us, please, where you withdrew to.
14 A. We went from our village to another village close to ours. I
15 don't want to mention the name in an open session. If you want me to
16 give the name, can we go to private session, please.
17 MR. ROGERS: Could we do that, Your Honour, briefly, please.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
19 [Private session]
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23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
25 you.
Page 1518
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 Yes, Mr. Rogers.
3 MR. ROGERS: Thank you.
4 Q. Witness, you were telling us that on the retreat from your
5 village you met Mr. Lahi Brahimaj on the road on the retreat and that he
6 was -- he spoke to you and others you were with. And you said: "He was
7 swearing at us."
8 What was -- could you please be precise and say exactly what it
9 was from your memory that he was saying to you?
10 A. He said, You're traitors. Why did you leave your positions?
11 Only traitors leave their positions. They are traitors to their country.
12 Q. We're all used to hearing words that may be offensive, witness.
13 Could you be as precise as you can, if anything like that was said, as to
14 exactly what words were used by Mr. Brahimaj?
15 A. Not really. He didn't use any bad words. He just said,
16 Traitors, why did you do this? He did not swear with bad words, like
17 saying things about our mothers or anything like that.
18 And one of our group tried to explain to him that we did not have
19 enough weapons to go around and there was no way we could defend or
20 confront -- the village or confront the Serb forces. But they wouldn't
21 listen, and then we went to Boksiq.
22 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour, I note the time. Am I too early for
23 the break? Yes, I think I am, aren't I? Yes.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are too early. Are you --
25 MR. ROGERS: I was thinking of 2.00 we'd started, and it was
Page 1519
1 2.15, so I'm sorry, I was thinking of a convenient moment to break.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not a problem.
3 Mr. ROGERS: We carry on.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Unless you're tired.
5 MR. ROGERS: I'm not answering that, Your Honour.
6 Q. Now, witness, you were telling us that you were -- ran into
7 Mr. Brahimaj. For how long was the meeting, that meeting with him on the
8 road? How long did it last?
9 A. When the incident happened, you mean?
10 Q. Yes. When there was the encounter with Mr. Brahimaj on the road,
11 about how long did that last?
12 A. About ten to 15 minutes. I don't think it was longer than that.
13 Q. And how did it end? What happened? What did you do and what did
14 he do?
15 A. I left for the other village. I wanted to go to Jabllanice. Of
16 course, we were very tired when we reached Gllogjan.
17 There, they did not treat us properly. They wouldn't help us, in
18 brief.
19 Q. Why would they not help you?
20 A. Allegedly we had left our positions, we were traitors, and maybe
21 Lahi's people had told them not to help us. But this is gossip. This is
22 something I imagine happened, because I was not there to listen to them
23 say such things.
24 MR. EMMERSON: Again, I hesitate to rise. But for the same
25 reason and for the sake of the record, can it be clear -- I don't wish to
Page 1520
1 prompt it, but can it be clear which Gllogjan the witness is referring
2 to.
3 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour, I think from previous answers it's --
4 I'm sure my learned friends don't mind me saying it like this. I think
5 it's clear.
6 Q. And, witness, perhaps can you confirm that the Gllogjan we're
7 talking about is the Catholic village of Gllogjan near to Jabllanice. Is
8 that right?
9 A. Yes, that's correct. The Catholic Gllogjan.
10 Q. What were the villagers of Catholic Gllogjan saying to you that
11 you could hear? What were they saying that made you think they wouldn't
12 help you, or what were they doing?
13 A. As I said, we were tired. Some of us had injuries. Their legs
14 were injured and they needed transportation to go to Jabllanice. And
15 they told us that they couldn't help us with transportation.
16 This also happened a week later, when I went to my village. I
17 found some weapons that were left there, an automatic rifle, Zolja. I
18 asked for a car to give me a lift to Jabllanice, and I was told the same
19 thing: they couldn't help us. They wouldn't help us. People from that
20 village.
21 Q. After you left the village of Catholic Gllogjan, did you
22 eventually arrive in Jabllanice?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. And where did you go there?
25 (redacted)
Page 1521
1 (redacted)
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me, Mr. Witness. We know you might know
3 many people in that place. The question is: Where in that place did you
4 go?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do I have to mention names?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... we can go into
7 private session if you want to go into private session. Or you can tell
8 the lawyer that you do not want to mention the name. It's up to him, and
9 he can take it from there.
10 MR. ROGERS:
11 Q. Is it a name that you would be prepared to mention in private
12 session?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour, may we.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
16 [Private session]
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
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Page 1524
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
3 you.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Registrar.
5 Yes, Mr. Rogers.
6 MR. ROGERS:
7 Q. Now, witness, you told us that you returned to your village after
8 a few days, and you mentioned earlier that you collected some weapons.
9 When you returned back to Jabllanice, what did you do with those weapons?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: But, Mr. -- I'm ... have we been told that after
11 collecting the weapons he returned back to Jabllanice?
12 MR. ROGERS: No, we may not. I'm not sure my learned friends
13 take any great objection. If they do, then we can ask it, but ...
14 No. No --
15 Q. Did you go back to Jabllanice, witness, after you'd visited your
16 village?
17 A. When I tried -- we tried to enter the village, our village, there
18 were some Serbs there. They saw that we were approaching the village,
19 and they fired at us. At that time, we withdrew. And then I found some
20 weapons. There was a machine-gun, a hand-held rocket-launcher, Zolja,
21 and one or two Kalashnikovs, and the weapon that I was carrying with me.
22 Q. And what did you do with those weapons? Where did you take them?
23 A. I returned to Jabllanice and went to Mr. Lahi's house. And he
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 1525
1 (redacted) but I will keep it. Shaban said thank you, and that was it.
2 Q. When you say "Mr. Lahi," could you give the full name, please.
3 A. Lahi Brahimi. Or Brahimaj. In Albanian, it's -- both names,
4 both forms, are the same.
5 Q. And when you took the weapons to Mr. Brahimaj, did he say
6 anything to you about it?
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted) them that these are the
10 weapons that I found. I gave -- I handed the weapons over to them and
11 they said thank you, and then I told them that I will keep the
12 Kalashnikov. They said okay. They thanked me for handing over the
13 weapons.
14 Q. After that occasion when you took the weapons, for how much
15 longer did you stay in Jabllanice?
16 A. I can't be precise because a long time has passed since then.
17 But it seems to me it was a couple of days. Two or three maybe. I went
18 to another village.
19 Q. Why did you leave after two or three days?
20 A. Because we didn't have any authority in the village. We were
21 looked upon as deserters because we had withdrawn from the fighting
22 points. People didn't respect us. Whenever we wanted to join, they sent
23 us back to the village. So we felt disrespected.
24 Q. Did you have any contact with Mr. Brahimaj in those few days?
25 A. No, I didn't have any contacts with Mr. Brahimaj until, when
Page 1526
1 several weeks after, maybe a month after, when he came, when I was
2 staying in that other village with that family, I was there with that --
3 the head of the family. We were staying outside in a field. A child of
4 that man came up to me and said, Lahi is asking for you.
5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... just pause there, please.
6 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours, I think that's a convenient moment to
7 break, if it's convenient to the Court. And I'll pick up the events at
8 this point after the break.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will take a break and come back at 4.00.
10 Court adjourned.
11 MR. ROGERS: I think we need to go into closed session first,
12 please, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we go into closed session, please.
14 Sorry, Mr. Rogers.
15 [Closed session]
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
Page 1527
1 you.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We will take a break and
3 come back at half past -- at 4.00, I'm sorry.
4 Court adjourned.
5 --- Recess taken at 3.31 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 3.59 p.m.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
8 [Closed session]
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.
18 Yes, Mr. Rogers.
19 MR. ROGERS: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Witness, you were explaining to us before the break about where
21 you went after you left Jabllanice once you decided to go, following on
22 from the time when you dropped the weapons at Mr. Brahimaj's house.
23 So could you just help us, please, with when you decided to leave
24 Jabllanice, where was the first place that you went to?
25 A. I went to a village at my father's uncle, in Klina municipality,
Page 1528
1 where I stayed about three weeks.
2 Q. And after that, where did you go?
3 A. After three weeks, I returned to my own village. I visited my
4 family in Jabllanice. From there, I went to another in-law in another
5 village.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I need clarification.
7 The witness says: After three weeks, I returned to my own
8 village. I visited Jabllanice, to my in-laws.
9 And we don't understand that to be his village. And if it could
10 be taken in steps, please let's know exactly what is happening here.
11 MR. ROGERS: Yes.
12 Q. And, witness, you said that you went to your father's uncle in
13 Klina municipality, stayed there for three weeks, then you returned to
14 your own village. Now, you then said: "I visited my family in
15 Jabllanice."
16 Did you go from your own village to Jabllanice.
17 A. [No verbal response]
18 Q. Could you just -- I wonder if you could answer. I saw you
19 nodding, but I wonder if you could speak so that the microphone can pick
20 it up and the transcript can reflect it.
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we go into private session, please.
24 [Private session]
25 (redacted)
Page 1529
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Page 1531
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5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
11 you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.
13 Yes, Mr. Rogers.
14 MR. ROGERS:
15 Q. So, witness, you told us you were at a house in a village. Could
16 you tell us, first of all, please, for how long you stayed at that house?
17 A. I stayed there for about -- for about some weeks or even months.
18 Q. Whilst you were staying there, did you see anybody else that you
19 knew?
20 A. Yes, yes. There were some co-villagers who were staying with
21 that family.
22 Q. Could you tell us who they were, please?
23 A. Are we in private session?
24 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour, can we go into private session for him
25 to ...
Page 1532
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
2 [Private session]
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
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Page 1538
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
6 you.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
8 Yes, Mr. Rogers.
9 MR. ROGERS: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Now, you told us that you were out with the member of the -- the
11 head of the household in pastures with the sheep and a child came and
12 said that Lahi was looking for you.
13 You told us that you decided to go to the house. By that, do you
14 mean the -- the house where you were staying in the village?
15 A. Yes, of course. The house I was staying at, yes.
16 Q. And when you were there, did you have any meeting with
17 Mr. Brahimaj?
18 A. When I got to the house, a few minutes later Mr. Brahimaj came.
19 And my in-law asked, What are you trying to do with this person? He
20 said, I just want him to be my soldier. And the other person said, Well,
21 be careful then. Don't ill-treat him.
22 Q. And are you able to help, please, with approximately what date
23 this was?
24 A. I can't remember. It was probably June, July. It was that
25 period: June, July.
Page 1539
1 Q. And when you spoke with Mr. Brahimaj, was he on his own or with
2 anybody else?
3 A. He was on his own. And I got into his car. And when we got
4 close to his village, I asked him, Why are you taking me there? He asked
5 me about the weapon I had, the Kalashnikov I had. And that was it.
6 He didn't tell me anything else.
7 Q. Can you remember what sort of car it was that you got into?
8 A. It was a Mercedes Benz.
9 Q. Did you have any idea whose car that was?
10 A. Later on, I understood it was Skender Kuqi's car.
11 Q. Who did you learn that -- from whom did you learn it was
12 Skender Kuqi's car?
13 A. When I was at the detention centre with Skender Kuqi, he
14 explained to me that when he was taken away, he was taken away in his own
15 car. When he was stopped or arrested or whatever you want to call what
16 happened to him.
17 Q. Did he tell you what type of car he had?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And what did he tell you was the type of car he had?
20 A. He told me that he had a Mercedes. And I told him that I had
21 been driven to that place in a Mercedes as well.
22 At that time, there were very few such cars in the country.
23 Q. I just want to take you back to the time you were in the car with
24 Mr. Brahimaj.
25 Can you describe, please, his demeanour, how he behaved towards
Page 1540
1 you? What was his mood like? How -- how was he towards you?
2 A. He was calm, very calm. I asked him, Why have you taken me away?
3 And he asked me about the Kalashnikov. He wanted to know about it. And
4 that was it.
5 And then he said okay. He didn't add anything else. He didn't
6 swear or he didn't say, I'll do this or that to you. Nothing like that.
7 Q. Why did you agree to go with him?
8 A. I didn't know what he wanted. And if I had not gone with him, he
9 would come back to look for me again.
10 Q. What did you think might happen, if anything, if you did not go
11 with him?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Isn't that speculative?
13 MR. ROGERS: It may be speculative, Your Honour, but it may be
14 based upon a legitimate concern. I don't know whether he has or didn't
15 have any. But there may be a basis.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Shouldn't we lay that basis first?
17 MR. ROGERS: We could.
18 Q. Did you have any reason to fear Mr. Brahimaj, witness, if you
19 didn't go with him?
20 A. I don't know. Had it been somebody else, I wouldn't have gone
21 with him. I would have hidden away. I would have gone to another
22 village. But because it was Lahi, he wanted something from me, and I
23 went with him. And I went with him because I knew I had not done
24 anything wrong. So I went. Had I known what was awaiting me, I would
25 not have gone with him. I would have done something else.
Page 1541
1 Q. Thank you.
2 Now, let's take that up. You went with him. Where did you
3 arrive at in -- you went in the car. Where did you go to?
4 A. We went to his village, to the staff, Jabllanice Staff.
5 Q. And where was that Jabllanice Staff located in the village?
6 A. From the village we left, as you go to that other village, it was
7 the first house on the right. On the left -- it's the other way around.
8 The house was on the left, and the mountain and the woods were on the
9 right.
10 Q. So as you're coming from the village where you had stayed, the
11 place you describe as the staff is the first house on the left as you
12 enter the village of Jabllanice; is that my understanding of where you
13 say it was?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you describe the building for us, please.
16 A. Of course. There was a garage in front. There were wooden
17 gates. And when the wooden gates opened, there was a building with four
18 rooms.
19 Q. And how many buildings were there inside the gates, as you
20 entered?
21 A. There was this fence, there was a long garage, and the house
22 itself. So I would say two buildings.
23 Q. I'd just like to show you a photograph, please.
24 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours, Exhibit P60.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreter is not
Page 1542
1 sure whether the witness said garage or barn because the words are almost
2 homophonic in Albanian.
3 MR. ROGERS: The original e-court number was 00357, if that helps
4 to locate it. I think it's now been given an exhibit, P60.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm told there's a technical error. It's not easy
7 to publish it at this time.
8 Can we go into the next screen, soft screens, because I see my
9 colleagues have it on their other screen.
10 MR. ROGERS: Yes. I don't know whether the witness can see it.
11 Q. Do you have anything on your screen at all, witness? No.
12 A. There is nothing on my screen.
13 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours, we'll just get a paper -- back to
14 paper.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Tried and tested.
16 MR. ROGERS: I'll just show it -- hold it up so my learned
17 friends can see it. I think they know the one I'm looking at. It's
18 the -- yeah. I'm wondering if the Court Officer could just pass the
19 paper, in our electronic day and age. Thank you. Ah.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm told it will be put on the ELMO.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the one.
22 MR. ROGERS: We have it on our screens. It doesn't appear to be
23 on the witness's.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. This was the building.
25 Formerly it was also covered in the -- on the inside. Afterwards it was
Page 1543
1 burned, I think. Where the wall is, where the fence is, near the door.
2 MR. ROGERS: I wonder if it is possible if the usher -- if the
3 Court Officer can help us by stretching the photograph our a little bit
4 because it looks a rather strange building at the moment.
5 Ah, now I understand it's now on the screen.
6 Q. So, witness, if you just have a look at it on the screen, you can
7 see -- thank you very much. You can see there's a gate in the centre of
8 the picture to the left; is that right? With a cover on it.
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. And then you have what appears to be -- I think you described a
11 long building at the back along a wall; is that right?
12 A. Yes. The cover that you can see over the gate, the whole fence
13 up to the house was covered. And it was a form of garage. The tractors
14 or cars were parked there.
15 Q. And was it covered?
16 A. Yes, yes, it was covered with tiles. Just like the ones you can
17 see over the gate.
18 Q. And then there's another larger building on the right-hand side
19 of the picture. And what -- what was that?
20 A. This was the staff building. This was the house where I stayed
21 for two nights and three days. Or, better to say, my detention centre,
22 or my prison.
23 Q. So, please, could you explain what happened when you arrived at
24 this facility. First of all, where did the car go? Did it stay on the
25 outside of the gates, or did it come into the compound itself?
Page 1544
1 A. The car stayed outside.
2 Q. And how were -- how did you get from the gates to the building,
3 the large building?
4 A. Lahi was leading. I followed him.
5 Q. And were you walking unaided?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what, if anything, did he say to you when you arrived inside
8 the compound?
9 A. Nothing. He was walking fast. He went inside. He took me to a
10 room where two other people were. I don't know where he went when he
11 left me there.
12 Q. When you say he took you to the room, how did he do that?
13 A. He didn't say anything. He just opened the door and said, Get
14 in.
15 Q. And how did he say, Get in? Did he say it in any particular way?
16 A. No. He just said, Get in. He opened the door, I went inside,
17 and no other words were exchanged. I don't know where he went after
18 that.
19 Q. Were there any other people around? Apart from anyone that may
20 have been in the room, were there any other people in the building or the
21 compound when you entered it?
22 A. Yes. I saw soldiers in uniform. There were several people.
23 Q. And what were you thinking as you entered the building?
24 A. I thought that this was the Main Staff for our region. Because
25 during that time, May, June, July, there were no other staffs, just the
Page 1545
1 Jabllanice Staff. And then later on other staffs were created in each
2 and every village as the war spread all over the country. And that's why
3 ever village created their own staff.
4 Q. He's taken you to this building. What did you think was going to
5 happen to you at this stage, if anything? What did you think was going
6 on as you entered the building following Lahi?
7 A. I was thinking that they would either return me to the village or
8 put me in the army as a soldier. I never thought that I would be faced
9 with what happened to me. Because I didn't see -- I didn't see any sign
10 of aggressiveness, for me to have any suspicions of what was coming.
11 Q. So you follow Lahi into the building. He opens a door to the
12 room and says, Get in there.
13 As you went into the room, what did you see?
14 A. When I entered the room, I saw two other people there,
15 Skender Kuqi, and the other person, whose name, at that time, I didn't
16 know and I had never seen. Now I know his name.
17 Skender I knew from before because he was my teacher when I was
18 in the primary school. The other person, I didn't know. I never saw him
19 before.
20 Q. And as you walked into that room and saw these two men, what sort
21 of condition were they in as you looked at them?
22 A. Myself, I never saw anyone in a worse condition. I have seen
23 people dead, killed, during the war. But people reduced to that plight I
24 had never seen before. In a very, very bad condition.
25 Q. And what did you think as you opened that door? How did you
Page 1546
1 feel?
2 A. I was stuck. I had no comment. I didn't know what was going to
3 happen to me after that.
4 Q. And what did happen to you after that?
5 A. After two or three minutes, people started to hit me on the back.
6 Four or five persons. They were with baseball bats.
7 Q. Were you able to tell where they had come from?
8 A. They came from behind me. I was looking at these two persons,
9 and the door was on my -- behind me.
10 Q. When you went into the room, before they started to hit you, was
11 the door closed behind you? Did you close it? Or did it stay open? Do
12 you remember?
13 A. When I entered the room, the door was closed. And I was there
14 looking at this -- standing looking at these two persons. Not more than
15 two minutes, maximum five, passed, then the door was flung open and then
16 people started to beat me. I don't know why they didn't say anything. I
17 just -- they just started hitting me with baseball bats. And then I
18 pushed one or two of them. When I pushed them, one of them inadvertently
19 hurt the other one. And then they said, Sorry, Gjakova, did I hurt you?
20 I saw that he was in uniform, because he fell down before me. But I
21 didn't see the other ones behind my back. Then I lost my consciousness,
22 and I don't know what happened after that.
23 But there was no reason that I know. No charge brought against
24 me, like for automatic rifle or for something that I knew about. They
25 just started hitting me with baseball bats, and I fell on the ground.
Page 1547
1 Q. Are you able to tell us where you were hit with the baseball bats
2 and how many times you were hit?
3 A. I remember when they hit me on the back. I stood for about five
4 minutes. And then when somebody hit me on the back of my head, then I
5 lost consciousness. I don't know if they again continued to beat me.
6 This I can't tell.
7 Q. And were you able to -- or did you regain your consciousness
8 after a period of time?
9 A. Yes, I did. After a while. And when I regained my
10 consciousness, I wanted to stand up but my legs couldn't hold me. I
11 wanted to urinate, but I couldn't stand on my feet. Then I called and
12 someone came and fetched me, took me out, but again my legs were
13 trembling. I couldn't do anything. And so they said, If you want to
14 urinate, urinate in your pants.
15 Q. You've told us that you couldn't stand. What about any other
16 injuries to your body; can you describe them for us, please, as a result
17 of this first beating with baseball bats?
18 A. My body was completely bruised and swollen.
19 After I left that place and I took off my sweater, when I looked
20 at my body, I was scared of my own body.
21 Q. Now, when you say when you left that place, do you mean when you
22 went out to go to urinate, or at some later point when you left the whole
23 of the compound?
24 A. No, I mean when I left the compound after three days. I stayed
25 there two nights and three day, I think.
Page 1548
1 Q. Yes, thank you. I just want to take you through those. And I'm
2 sorry to have to take you through those events, but I'd like to take you
3 through them, please.
4 You've told us about this first beating that you received with
5 baseball bats. Are you able to identify or name, apart from the
6 reference to the man Gjakova, are you able to identify or name any of the
7 men that beat you on that first occasion?
8 A. No, no. Because they beat me from behind. And I only saw
9 Gjakova who fell down before me. And I heard the other person saying to
10 him, Did I hurt you, Gjakova?
11 Q. And whilst you were being beaten, was anything being said to you
12 that you could hear?
13 A. No, no. Nothing. No charges. Nothing. Only that they started
14 to beat me with these baseball bats. Initially I didn't know what it
15 was. But when I saw Gjakova falling down, I saw the bat on his hand.
16 Q. You were beaten. You recovered consciousness. You were taken
17 outside. And you told us that you were told by them that if you wanted
18 to urinate again, you'd have to urinate in your pants; is that right?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. Now, after that first beating, are you able to help, please, with
21 what time of day it was when that first beating occurred? On the first
22 occasion you were taken there, what time of day was that?
23 A. It was midday, I think. Maybe a little bit after midday.
24 Q. And after you were taken back into the room, after having tried
25 to urinate outside, what happened in that room whilst you were there?
Page 1549
1 First of all, did anything happen to you for that -- for the rest
2 of that day up to the first night?
3 A. No, no. During the night, they tied our hands behind.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I'll come to that, if I may.
5 I just want to ask you about the day-time, first of all.
6 Did you see anything happen to either of the two other men that
7 you were detained with, in that first day that you were there, coming up
8 to the night-time?
9 A. Yes. After I regained consciousness, the person I didn't
10 recognise told me, Accept what you have done. Admit what you have done.
11 Because I'll kill [Realtime translation read in error "tell"] you. This
12 second person. Naser came and asked me, What's wrong with you? And I
13 told him what he said to me, and then he beat him, the other person, with
14 a baseball bat.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm lost.
16 MR. ROGERS: I need to break that down.
17 Q. You --
18 MR. ROGERS: Just allow me to just get my LiveNote.
19 Q. Now, you told us that after you regained consciousness a person
20 you didn't recognise said to you, Accept what you have done.
21 Now, I want to be clear: When was that said to you? Was this on
22 the first day or was it on some other occasion?
23 A. On the first day. After they beat me and I regained
24 consciousness. This person was also detained in the room. Not Skender,
25 but the other person.
Page 1550
1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... one of the detainees in that
2 room said to you, Accept what you have done?
3 A. Yes.
4 Then Naser came and said, Why are you here? What is he saying?
5 He said nothing. He is saying to you accept? He was listening to us
6 while we were talking to another -- each other.
7 Q. You've told us that then, after that was said, when you were
8 talking to each other, Naser came. Who is Naser?
9 A. He was a relative of -- of Mr. Lahi, his uncle's son.
10 Q. So is his surname also Brahimaj, or is it another name?
11 A. It's his uncle's son.
12 Q. So Naser Brahimaj came in and spoke to you?
13 A. Paternal uncle.
14 Q. And what did -- what was said between you and Naser Brahimaj?
15 A. Nothing. He only asked me, What did you say to the other guy? I
16 said, He just told me that I have to accept what I have done. And then
17 he beat him up.
18 Q. Who beat who up?
19 A. Naser beat up the person, Pal Krasniqi is his name, the second
20 person that was in the room.
21 Q. Now, at the time you didn't know the name of that person?
22 A. No, I didn't know his name then.
23 Q. So there's two men in the room; one, you've told us, is
24 Skender Kuqi, and the other man, whose name you didn't then know.
25 My understanding of your evidence is that Pal -- sorry, that
Page 1551
1 Naser Brahimaj then beat that other man with a baseball bat in front of
2 you; is that right?
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 Q. And how many times did Naser Brahimaj beat that other man with a
5 baseball bat?
6 A. Many times.
7 Q. But that I mean, how many blows did he strike? How many times
8 did he hit him?
9 A. When I was there during that moment or during the night or ...
10 Q. On this occasion, this first occasion, how many times did he hit
11 him with a baseball bat?
12 A. Ten, 15 baseball bats [as interpreted]. I can't say for sure,
13 because I was afraid for myself, being beaten.
14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... what was the effect on that
15 man?
16 A. He was sitting all the time. He was lying down. He lost
17 consciousness, because they always kept beating him on the head.
18 Q. When you first went into the room, the very first time you went
19 into the room, what was the condition of that man when you went in?
20 A. Very, very bad. I saw him in the same condition from the first
21 time until I left. He was in the same situation. He couldn't stand up.
22 He was swollen all over. He smelt bad.
23 Q. Was he able to stand or to go outside to urinate like you had
24 been taken, or not?
25 A. [No verbal response]
Page 1552
1 Q. You shake your head. You need to speak.
2 A. No, no.
3 Q. So how -- how did he carry out his toilet functions?
4 A. Couldn't stand up. Everything he did in his pants.
5 Q. And what about Skender Kuqi, when you first went into that room;
6 what condition was he in, that you could see?
7 A. Skender Kuqi was even in a worse situation. This other person
8 sometimes moaned. But Skender was even in a worse situation.
9 Q. Can you describe, please, what he looked like?
10 A. What can I say? As I said, I'd never seen anyone in a worse
11 condition. He was black, bruised all over on one part of his face. I
12 don't remember whether it was right or left. When he breathed, he made a
13 strong noise. He screamed because of the pain.
14 Q. You told us that Naser Brahimaj on this occasion, this first time
15 you've told us about, hit the other man. Did you see any occasions when
16 Skender Kuqi was beaten in your presence?
17 A. Yes, yes. They kept beating him all the time. At least five or
18 six times a day.
19 Q. And when you say "they," who was it that was beating Skender Kuqi
20 five or six times a day?
21 A. Naser Brahimaj. This is the one.
22 Q. And what about the other man? You've told us about this first
23 occasion when he was beaten with baseball bats. How many other times did
24 you see him being beaten whilst you were detained there?
25 A. They beat the both of them all the time.
Page 1553
1 Q. When you say "they," who do you mean, please?
2 A. When I say "he," Naser. I mean Naser. It was only Naser.
3 Q. Were you able to find out at all why it was that the other man
4 had been detained?
5 A. They didn't say anything when they beat Skender. When they
6 [Realtime transcript read in error "we"] beat the other one, they said
7 that a Serb officer from Klina sent him to that village to find out the
8 munitions, the number of soldiers, and so on.
9 As people said, according to rumours, nobody sent him that --
10 there. He went there voluntarily of his own free will. And then people
11 knew who he was and then he was arrested.
12 Q. What were they accusing him of doing, if anything? What was he
13 being accused of?
14 A. They accused him of being a Serb collaborator of Serb police and
15 that he was working against the Albanian population.
16 Q. Now, you told us that during the night-time you were tied up.
17 How were you tied?
18 A. With a rope.
19 Q. What was tied?
20 A. They tied only our hands behind. But also our legs. Also our
21 legs.
22 Q. So you were describing your hands being tied behind your back?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. And you also said your legs. Where were your legs tide?
25 A. Around our ankles. But they had left some free rope, one metre
Page 1554
1 of rope, for us to be able to move about. But so that we couldn't flee.
2 Q. Were you also tied together -- let me start again.
3 Were you all tied at night?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. Were you tied separately or tied together?
6 A. Separately.
7 Q. And during the day, were the ties of your hands undone or did you
8 remain tied?
9 A. When somebody came in the morning, they untied our hands.
10 Q. And what about your feet, your legs; were they untied as well?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. During your time when you were detained over these few days, were
13 you provided with any food or water?
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Rogers, before we go into that, at 52/17, the
15 witness said:
16 "Yes. After I regained consciousness, the person I didn't
17 recognise told me, Accept what you have done. Admit what you have done.
18 Because --" and on the record it is "I'll tell you." But I seem to have
19 heard "I'll kill you." "Because I'll kill you."
20 Could you clarify that with the witness, whether that's what he
21 said, and what he meant by that?
22 MR. ROGERS: Yes.
23 Q. Well, you may have heard the Judge's question. When you were
24 being asked earlier on by me about your conversation with the man on --
25 the second man that you referred to, the second prisoner, my
Page 1555
1 understanding of your evidence is that he said to you, Accept what have
2 you done, admit what you have done.
3 Just clarify that, first of all. Is that right, that that's what
4 he said to you?
5 A. Yes. Pal Krasniqi. Because before I didn't know his name. But
6 his name was Pal Krasniqi.
7 Q. And then there is a note that the next thing you said is:
8 "Because I'll tell you" or "I'll kill you." And then the next note says
9 this second person came and asked me, What's wrong with you.
10 Could you just clarify, please, exactly what happened? The
11 first -- the second person, Pal Krasniqi, said, Accept what you've done,
12 admit what you've done. What happened next? Could you explain?
13 A. When I regained consciousness, Pal Krasniqi told me, Accept what
14 you have done because I will kill you. Naser was listening to our
15 conversation, and he entered the room and asked me, What did he say to
16 you? Because I heard that he was saying something. He said to me, I
17 said to Naser, Accept what you have done. He is saying to you, Accept
18 what have you done? And then he said what -- do you know what he has
19 done? And he started beating him.
20 MR. ROGERS: I don't know whether that clarifies --
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Well, now I know that it is "I'll kill you" and
22 not "I'll tell you."
23 But now, Mr. Witness, my question it: Do you have any idea why
24 Mr. Krasniqi said to you, Or I will kill you, "Because I will kill you"?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. He was under greater
Page 1556
1 accusation than me in that case. I don't know why he said that. Maybe
2 he was not in his right mind.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.
4 MR. ROGERS: I just want to be clear myself so I understand it.
5 Q. Are you suggesting that Pal Krasniqi said to you, "I will kill
6 you"?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Now you were -- oh.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harvey.
10 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, this is a matter that could
11 potentially wait for cross-examination, I accept. But we are now
12 reaching a kind of evidence creep, from "the man who I didn't know," "the
13 second man who I didn't know," to "Pal Krasniqi." This is the first
14 time, as far as I'm aware, that this witness has used the name
15 Pal Krasniqi. He's got it from somewhere. It might assist the
16 Trial Chamber at this stage to know where he got it from and when. As I
17 say, it can wait for cross-examination, but I for one am curious.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's not the first time, Mr. Harvey. However,
19 when he first mentioned it, I thought Mr. Prosecutor was going to follow
20 that up, but he didn't. Now I can't remember what page and what line it
21 was. I'm trying to find out, and I'll tell you as soon as I find it. He
22 has mentioned it twice before.
23 MR. HARVEY: He has today, yes. But, sorry, when I said he
24 hasn't mentioned it before, I meant he has not mentioned it before today,
25 in any of his previous statements or testimony. That's the point I'm
Page 1557
1 raising.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see.
3 MR. HARVEY: Yeah.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well --
5 MR. HARVEY: I'm in your hands.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: At page 54, I see he says: "Naser beat up the
7 person ... Krasniqi is his name, the second person that was in the room."
8 And I'm not sure whether this is the first or second time today
9 he has mentioned it. And now ...
10 I don't see how he -- it seems to me like he just remembered the
11 name, and can you follow that up in cross-examination.
12 MR. HARVEY: Yes. As I say, I'm in your hands on how you want
13 that dealt with.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe you want to clear that up when you
15 cross-examine.
16 MR. HARVEY: I shall.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do.
18 MR. ROGERS: I can perhaps deal with it now, to avoid curiosity
19 killing the cat.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, the Chamber will obviously not stand in your
21 way if you want to clear it. I just noted that you didn't follow it up
22 at the time when it was first mentioned today, and I thought you must
23 have had good reason for that.
24 Anyway, do what you want to do.
25 MR. ROGERS: Not necessarily, Your Honour.
Page 1558
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do what you want to do.
2 MR. ROGERS:
3 Q. Witness, could you just -- could you de-mystify for us how it is
4 that you now think that that person's name is Pal Krasniqi?
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... he doesn't
6 think so, he says so.
7 MR. ROGERS: Sorry.
8 Q. That you believe -- well, yes, that you say that name is now
9 Pal Krasniqi. Where do you get the name from?
10 A. After the war, through the media, here, looking at the pictures,
11 the statement. It was after the war. His name appeared in television
12 reports, in the media. So it was after the war that I found out about
13 Pal Krasniqi being lost, arrested during the war, and disappeared.
14 Even some weeks ago there was another witness here who mentioned
15 his name. You asked him whether he knew him.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 [Prosecution counsel confer]
18 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours, I'm wondering -- are we at the next
19 break? I think we are.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: At this point in time, yes, we are.
21 MR. ROGERS: It's a convenient moment, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: If it's a convenient moment, may we move into
23 closed session, please.
24 [Closed session]
25 (redacted)
Page 1559
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
11 you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.
13 We'll take a break and come back at a quarter to 6.00. Thank you
14 very much.
15 --- Recess taken at 5.18 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 5.44 p.m.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
18 [Closed session]
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 1560
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
16 Yes, Mr. Rogers.
17 MR. ROGERS: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Witness, could I just ask you, please, in relation to the -- to
19 the second man, not Skender Kuqi, but the other man, are you able to
20 help, please, with what clothing he was wearing when you saw him in that
21 room?
22 A. He was wearing sports clothes, track suit. They were green and
23 white.
24 Q. Thank you. And I just also wanted to ask you just to clarify
25 something you said earlier, at page 56, line 11 and 12 of the transcript.
Page 1561
1 You were answering as to what was happening whilst this man was being
2 beaten. And you said:
3 "When we [sic] beat the other one, they said that a Serb officer
4 from Klina sent him to the village to find out the munitions, number of
5 soldiers, and so on."
6 Then it says this:
7 "As people said, according to rumours, nobody sent him ... there.
8 He went there voluntarily of his own free will. And then people knew who
9 he was and then he was arrested."
10 When you refer there to him going there voluntarily of his own
11 free will, where is that place that he is apparently going voluntarily
12 to?
13 A. He went to the village of Jabllanice.
14 Q. And can I understand, please, whether that's something that you
15 understood from him or whether it's something you understood from rumour
16 that's referred to earlier?
17 A. No, I heard about that later, after the war, that he had been
18 there voluntarily, he had gone there voluntarily.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I also have something to clear at the same place.
21 MR. ROGERS: Yes, Your Honour, please.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you said: "When we beat him, when we beat
23 the other one," what do you mean by "we"?
24 The transcription says -- [Microphone not activated].
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge, please.
Page 1562
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: My apologies.
2 The transcript says:
3 "They didn't say anything when they beat Skender. When we beat
4 the other one, they said that a Serb officer from Klina sent him to the
5 village to find out the munitions, the number of soldiers, and so on."
6 I want to know what is meant by "when we," "we," what is meant by
7 "we" there?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It might be an error. Maybe I
9 misspoke. But what I meant to say was when they beat him. When Naser
10 beat him, he was accusing him of those things. It should have been a --
11 it must have been a misunderstanding, I think.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 Thank you, Mr. Rogers.
14 MR. ROGERS: Yes. I think, Your Honour, if you look, just for
15 your reference, at lines 56, 1 to 7, then the context is maybe clearer.
16 I'll leave it for Your Honours to draw such conclusions as you see fit.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The witness has told us, cleared us. Thank you so
18 much.
19 MR. ROGERS:
20 Q. I was going to ask you in relation to Skender Kuqi, were you able
21 to find out why it was that he was being detained at Jabllanice?
22 A. Several people had gone to his business place in Zahaq, and he
23 was abducted or arrested, whatever you want to call that.
24 Q. And how did you find that out?
25 A. Skender told me that Azem Veseli, Zalli, allegedly took part in
Page 1563
1 his kidnapping.
2 Q. And did Skender Kuqi explain why he thought that had happened?
3 A. He said that it was because he had a lot of money, he had made a
4 lot of money. It was a question of wealth. We were not able to speak a
5 lot with each other. We were afraid.
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter couldn't hear the last part of
7 the witness's answer.
8 MR. ROGERS:
9 Q. If you could repeat the last thing you said, please, witness,
10 because the interpreter couldn't hear it.
11 A. Well, allegedly it was jealousy, because Skender was rich, had
12 made a lot of money. He -- this person had a business in another
13 village, Skender had a business in another village, so that was the
14 jealousy.
15 Q. In relation to the conditions of your detention, could you
16 describe, please, the room that you were kept in, what it was like. Did
17 it have any furniture in there?
18 A. The room I stayed for two nights and three days was completely
19 empty except for two or three benches. They were low benches. And apart
20 from that, there was nothing else.
21 Q. Were you given any food in the time that you were detained; and,
22 if so, what?
23 A. For the time I stayed there, I was not given anything to eat.
24 On the third day, I was given tea and bread.
25 Q. What about water? Were you given any water in either -- any of
Page 1564
1 those days?
2 A. Yes. When I asked for water, they did bring me water. There was
3 no water in the room, but when I asked them to bring some water for
4 Skender, they did bring water to us.
5 Q. You said that you asked them to bring water for Skender. Did you
6 ask them to do anything else for Skender?
7 A. Yes. Because Skender was in a lot of pain and he was screaming
8 and groaning, I asked them to give him assistance. Naser came in and
9 asked me, What's going on here? I told him. Naser went outside. After
10 that, three or four people came in the room. One of them was wearing a
11 white coat, like a doctor. And he gave him a tablet.
12 Q. Did you see this person, this doctor person, come again at any
13 time when you were there?
14 A. No. The next day, I left the place.
15 Q. So can we turn, then, to the day that you left the place.
16 What happened just before you left the place?
17 A. On the third day, Lahi came and took me to his room.
18 Q. Where was this room?
19 A. It was adjacent to the room we were staying. It was a different
20 room.
21 Q. And what was in this room?
22 A. In that room, there were Lahi, another person, and two women.
23 MR. ROGERS: Could I ask Exhibit P60 to be put back on the
24 screen, please.
25 Q. So, looking at this photograph, can you see in that photograph
Page 1565
1 the room that Lahi took you into or that you went into where Lahi was?
2 A. Yes. There were a room that looks white from the outside.
3 Q. Can you just take a marker, please, and mark the photograph with
4 the room in which Lahi was.
5 A. [Marks]
6 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours, do Your Honours have it? Yeah.
7 Q. And are you able to see on that photograph the room that you were
8 detained in; and, if so, can you mark that, please.
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. And I wonder if you could just mark underneath the room that you
11 said Lahi was in, could you just mark that underneath with the letter L.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. All right. Okay. Well, we have it there.
14 And the other room, the unmarked window, is the place where you
15 were kept; is that -- is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. ROGERS: May that marked photograph become an exhibit,
18 please, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted as an exhibit. May it please be
20 given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P60, marked by the witness in the court,
22 shall be assigned Exhibit P407. Thank you.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
24 MR. ROGERS:
25 Q. Now you told us that you went into the room where Lahi was. What
Page 1566
1 happened in there, please?
2 A. When I went in, there were two women and another person, as I
3 said, in the room, and Lahi started asking me questions. He asked, From
4 what side did the Serbs enter Gjurgjevik i Madh? And I said, I don't
5 know. I was not in Gjurgjevik i Madh. I was in Gjurgjevik i Vogel. And
6 then he told the other girls -- the girls, Do you want to practice on
7 him? And they started beating me with a sort of baton.
8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... just pause there, please.
9 Now, could you just describe the layout of the room, please. Was
10 there any furniture in the room?
11 A. On this side, behind the door, there was a computer on a table.
12 In the middle of the room, there was a bed, sort of a bed, where Mr. Lahi
13 and the other person were sitting. And there were some chairs as well.
14 Q. And where were you in that room?
15 A. I was at the door.
16 Q. Are you able to help, please, with what the computer was used
17 for?
18 A. I don't know. However, they took my details, name, surname, date
19 of birth. I don't know what they used my details for. I know that they
20 took the details.
21 Q. What were the two women and the other man wearing?
22 A. They were wearing black uniforms.
23 Q. Did they have any form of insignia or badge that you could
24 identify?
25 A. The women, I don't think they had a badge or insignia. However,
Page 1567
1 I can't be 100 per cent sure. I may have forgotten. The other person
2 did have insignia.
3 Q. And what was that?
4 A. PU on his arm.
5 Q. Are you able to tell us whether you know who any of those three
6 other people were?
7 A. No, I don't know them. I never saw them again. I had never seen
8 them before.
9 Q. Please just help with how the questioning went in the room.
10 First of all, who was asking the questions?
11 A. Lahi interrogated me first and asked me questions about
12 Gjurgjevik i Madh, how did the police enter Gjurgjevik i Madh. And I
13 told him that I was not there; I was staying in Gjurgjevik i Vogel. And
14 there were no police forces. There was no fighting going on in the
15 village where I was.
16 Q. Whilst you were being questioned, were you accused of anything?
17 A. Only about this Gjurgjevik. And also the Kalash, the automatic
18 rifle, which was Vesel's weapon.
19 Q. What was said about that?
20 A. Where is the weapon? Where have you left the weapon? I told
21 them that I had given it back to the person who described it to me to be
22 his. But he wouldn't listen to my words at all. And he gave me his
23 handgun and said, Take this, kill yourself, because I don't want to smear
24 my hands with your blood.
25 Q. Who said that? Who gave you the gun and who said that?
Page 1568
1 A. Lahi.
2 Q. What about the other man; did he say anything to you?
3 A. Yes. The other one said, Admit what you have done, because I've
4 been like you before, but now I am the best soldier. If you don't admit
5 what you have done, we will go and erect the flag in Gllogjan, and when
6 we come back, you have to admit what you have done.
7 I don't know what Gllogjan he meant when he said that.
8 Q. And what was it you thought had you to admit?
9 A. I didn't know what to admit to. Because, had I done something
10 wrong, I would have admitted to it, but I hadn't. I had never been to
11 Gjurgjevik i Madh. I don't know even know where it was. I was in
12 (redacted)
13 know all the time that I was there, no Serb policeman or soldier came
14 there, and it was a free area. It was known as a free area.
15 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours, could we just briefly go into private
16 session.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
18 [Private session]
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 1569
1 (redacted)
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 MR. ROGERS: Thank you.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Rogers.
7 MR. ROGERS: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Witness, in relation to the two women that were present in the
9 room, what did they do?
10 A. They were beating me -- sorry. First, they were staying there.
11 And when Lahi told them, would you like to practice on him? they started
12 beating me with some sort of baton.
13 Q. The translation we've received is that "they were staying there."
14 Is that correct?
15 A. Yes, yes, I found them there in the room.
16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... and what sort of baton were
17 you being struck with? Can you describe it?
18 A. We call it "feder [phoen]." It was a small -- this big. A small
19 baton this big.
20 Q. When you're indicating this big, I'm not very good at size.
21 About 30 centimetres was what you appear to be indicating. Is that
22 approximately correct?
23 A. Yes, yes. Maybe a little longer.
24 MR. ROGERS: I note the transcript says kilometres. I think we
25 must mean centimetres. Thank you.
Page 1570
1 Q. How long did that beating go on for, with those batons?
2 A. I don't know. Five minutes, ten minutes, more. I forget now.
3 Q. What sort of injuries, if any, did you receive from that beating?
4 Could you describe them, please.
5 A. They were not that strong to cause me a lot of injury. Or maybe
6 because my body was already swollen I couldn't feel anything.
7 Q. And after this beating on this occasion, where did you go to?
8 What happened?
9 A. After I was beaten, I went back to the other room where my
10 colleagues were. And a few minutes later I told them, I intend to leave.
11 I intend to escape. If you want, you can come with me. I can't bear it
12 anymore here. Because I was afraid that he would come back. He had told
13 me, When I come back, you have to admit or I'll kill you, I'll slash your
14 throat. And I thought, If he comes back and slashes my throat, I
15 wouldn't wait for that.
16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... who was it that said that,
17 please?
18 A. The other person who was next to Lahi, in that room.
19 Q. So you said you thought you wouldn't wait for him to come back to
20 do that. So what did you, in fact, do?
21 A. I went in the room, as I said, and I told both of them, Skender
22 and the other person, I have made up my mind to leave. It's better to be
23 killed by a bullet than wait for him to come here and slash my throat.
24 Q. How did you escape?
25 A. There was a window there. I removed the window and climbed out
Page 1571
1 of the window.
2 Q. And how were you able to remove the window?
3 A. The window frame had not been put properly. It had been tied
4 with some wires. I don't know. And maybe God gave me the strength to
5 remove it.
6 Q. And what happened after you'd removed the window? Where did you
7 go?
8 A. I went outside and started running. There is a stream between
9 the house and the woods, and I entered the woods. They spotted me before
10 I reached the stream. One of the soldiers spotted me and began to fire
11 at me. I saw that Skender had remained there. He was not able to cross
12 the stream.
13 Q. Had he been able to get out of the window, as far as you could
14 see?
15 A. Yes, yes. I saw him. He was crawling when I saw him, because he
16 was not able to walk on his feet. I was stronger than him because I had
17 only been beaten the first day. I was not beaten as savagely as them.
18 And one night, Nazmi, Lahi's brother, came to see us, and he just kicked
19 us once. That was his greeting. However, he did not injure us.
20 Q. When you were being questioned in the room, did you know why you
21 were being asked about the village of Gjurgjevik i Madh?
22 A. Well, allegedly -- I think that they just wanted to find
23 something to accuse me of. Allegedly some -- they had seen me on top of
24 a Serb tank and that I had helped the Serbs enter Gjurgjevik i Madh on
25 top of a tank. This was his accusation.
Page 1572
1 Q. So what was it --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Rogers, we are in open session.
3 MR. ROGERS: Yes, Your Honour, I understand. I think it's okay
4 for that village.
5 Q. So what was it that you understood you were being accused of?
6 A. I just told you. Allegedly someone had seen me in
7 Gjurgjevik i Madh on a tank, attacking the Albanians. That had nothing
8 to do with me. I had never been to that village, to Gjurgjevik i Madh.
9 If the Serbs had caught me, they would either kill me or beat me or do
10 something to me, and they were accusing me of these things. This was not
11 true. They had no proof of that.
12 With regard to the Kalash, Vesel maybe spoke to them or maybe
13 they could -- if they tried, they could speak to Vesel himself and solve
14 the situation. I still don't understand why. I never supported the Serb
15 dictatorship. I was over 15 times beaten by the Serb police. I was
16 arrested. My father was forced to beat me, by the Serbian police. I
17 told them that I was from a family that the Serbs had asked -- had wanted
18 our family to change our surname into a Serb surname, and we did not
19 accept to do that, and they burned their feet. And all those accusations
20 against me are completely outrageous. I can't believe and I won't
21 believe those accusations have any basis.
22 Q. After you left the place where you were detained, where did you
23 go to from there?
24 A. From there, I went to -- can I mention it in now? Are we in
25 private session?
Page 1573
1 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour, perhaps we can briefly move into
2 private session.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
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Page 1576
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13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
16 Yes, Mr. Rogers.
17 MR. ROGERS:
18 Q. Now, witness, you were telling us that back in Jabllanice village
19 you were by a shop. Lahi saw you by that shop, started to swear at you,
20 and said, Where are you, you traitor? He aimed a pistol at you and took
21 you to his home. Is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What happened at the home?
24 A. He told me --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Can you ask him to repeat the answer, please.
Page 1577
1 I didn't understand it.
2 MR. ROGERS:
3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... sorry, the interpreters
4 having difficulty understanding.
5 So I asked you what happened at the home. Could you just repeat
6 that, please.
7 A. When he took me to his home, he said to me, Where are you,
8 traitor? You have broken free from the largest prison in Kosova. And he
9 gave me some slaps on the face. It was a blond lady who was there before
10 when they beat me, together with the other lady, and all of us went
11 downstairs. They took me to a car. It was the same car, but it was the
12 sign of an eagle painted on it.
13 Q. Just pause, please.
14 Now, you said that there was a blond lady who was there before.
15 When you say "there before," where do you mean?
16 A. When Lahi interrogated me earlier.
17 Q. And you mentioned also "it was the same car."
18 What do you mean by that?
19 A. It was the same Mercedes.
20 Q. The same Mercedes as what, as when?
21 A. The same car that took me the first time, from the village where
22 I was staying before I fled.
23 Q. And when you went to the car, were you -- did you go willingly or
24 not?
25 A. No, no. They took me from the shop, told me, You are a traitor,
Page 1578
1 and beat me, slapped me on the face. And now he accused me as if,
2 allegedly, Skender Kuqi had promised to give me 10.000 Deutschemark if I
3 could get him out of prison. And I said, It's not true. He said, I have
4 a witness.
5 And he took me to that person and asked him whether Skender had
6 promised to give me 10.000 Deutschemark.
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... just pause, please.
8 Who was the person that he took you to; and where was it?
9 A. He took me to the same room I was before. There was this other
10 person, I'm not mentioning the name, and Skender. The Catholic man.
11 Q. And you -- this room, is this the -- the room of detention where
12 you were kept or a different room that you're referring to?
13 A. Yes, the same room. But when I entered there, I didn't see
14 Skender anymore.
15 Q. And the other man you've referred to as a Catholic man. How do
16 you know he was a Catholic man?
17 A. When Lahi took me there, he asked him, Is he the person that
18 Skender has promised 10.000 Deutschemark? He made the sign of cross, of
19 the cross, and said, No, that's not true. He only told us, I'm going
20 to break free from this prison, and asked us to join him. This is what
21 he said.
22 Q. When you refer to the person making the sign of the cross and
23 saying, No, that's not true, which person is that?
24 A. The same person I was in the room with the first time.
25 Q. What happened after that person said it wasn't true? What did
Page 1579
1 Lahi do?
2 A. Lahi took me immediately to his car. And it was the same car.
3 He made me sit in the front, in the passenger seat. The blond lady was
4 sitting in the rear, and she pressed her pistol on my neck. And she
5 said, If you move, you are dead.
6 Q. And what happened next? Where did you go?
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Rogers, just one moment, please.
8 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour, forgive me.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: At 80/22, 23: "He took me to the same room I was
10 before. There was this other person, I'm not mentioning the same, and
11 Skender. The Catholic man."
12 So the other person, "I'm not mentioning the name," is the
13 Catholic man.
14 I don't know whether -- whether we -- the name was mentioned in a
15 previous section. I don't know whether that was in private session. Was
16 it?
17 MR. ROGERS: The name of the other man?
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes.
19 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour, I don't think it was in private
20 session. There was some -- I don't think it was, but there was some
21 debate about evidence creep --
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yeah. Yeah, right. Right, but why --
23 MR. ROGERS: -- and I'm happy to continue to use the name if it's
24 causing confusion.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: So then my question to the witness is: Why -- why
Page 1580
1 do you not mention his name this time? The Catholic man. You know his
2 name.
3 Is it because we are in open session?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Because I'm afraid that
5 if I mention his name, people will know. When I mentioned his name, I
6 was asked whether -- how I knew about it. But that's why I said.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: But it's the same man?
8 THE WITNESS: Same.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
10 MR. ROGERS: Does that clarify matters for Your Honour? Yes. I
11 understand the difficulty. We've gone from one name, to a Catholic man,
12 to a third man, and it can be confusing. But I hope that we're all clear
13 that we're talking about the same individual. Yes.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]
15 MR. ROGERS: Would Your Honours just give me a moment, please.
16 Q. So we've got to the car. And in the car the woman has put the
17 gun to the back of your head. What happened next, please?
18 A. We drove for two, three minutes from the place I was taken to a
19 place which is called Mllake. It's a distance of five, less than five,
20 minutes by car. And I said, Lahi, either set me free or do to me what
21 you intend to. He took me out of car, opened the boot. There was a
22 crate of beer there, and they -- he removed the beer and put me in,
23 closed the lid.
24 Q. And then what happened? You were in the boot of the car with the
25 lid closed?
Page 1581
1 A. I don't know for how long we drove. I had no watch. We stopped
2 at a place. He opened the lid of the boot and asked me, Do you like the
3 music I'm playing? And he took the pistol and started to swear at me and
4 said, Shall I pull the trigger? I said, Yes, pull it.
5 I was sitting, like, on my side, because, as you know, the boot
6 is small. I was leaning on one side. And he pulled the trigger and
7 there was smoke coming out of it. I thought I was wounded, but I didn't
8 see any blood coming out of my -- from my body. And then he closed the
9 lid.
10 From there, he took me to another place. I don't know where.
11 Q. What do you make of this incident with this weapon? Were you
12 able to work out what this was that he had used, that he pushed into you
13 and pulled and smoke had come out. Do you know what it was?
14 A. I don't know. If I knew it was a fake gun, maybe I would have
15 done something to -- in self-defence. Maybe I would have attacked him or
16 attempted to leave the car.
17 Q. During this incident, when you're detained in the boot of the
18 car, what were you thinking was going to happen to you?
19 A. I was thinking that they were going to take me to some secret
20 place to kill me. What else could I think?
21 Q. After this incident where the trigger was pulled and you felt
22 this pain, the lid was closed again, where did you go? What happened
23 next?
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did the witness say he felt pain?
25 MR. ROGERS: [Microphone not activated]
Page 1582
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: He said: "I thought I was wounded, but I didn't
2 see any blood coming out of my -- from my body. And then he closed the
3 lid."
4 MR. ROGERS: Forgive me.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome.
6 MR. ROGERS: Forgive me.
7 Q. You said that, yes, you felt that -- yes. What made you think
8 that you were wounded?
9 A. Because I felt pain. When I pressed, I had pain.
10 Q. I'm grateful. You were in the boot of the car. Where did you go
11 next, in the boot of the car? Where did you end up?
12 A. After he closed the lid, he took me to another place, but I don't
13 know where. He again opened the lid of the boot and said, I have brought
14 a good man for you. And he talked with someone there who said, We don't
15 need such people. And he kicked me -- gave me a kick. I was still in
16 the boot, as I was there leaning on one side. And from there he took me
17 to Gllogjan village. I'd never been in Gllogjan, Gllogjan of Decan,
18 before.
19 Q. This is the -- not the Catholic Gllogjan, the other Gllogjan?
20 A. [No interpretation]
21 Q. Yes. And what happened there?
22 A. Yeah, it's Gllogjan of Decan. It's not the same Gllogjan.
23 Q. What was at this place, at this -- this other Gllogjan?
24 A. At this other Gllogjan, he took me to a house which was a staff.
25 This is the village of Mr. Ramush. It was like the staff. They called
Page 1583
1 it Staff.
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Ramush who?
3 A. Mr. Ramush Haradinaj.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... so this is the staff in the
5 village of Gllogjan. And who -- who did you understand was in charge of
6 that staff, if at all, at that time?
7 A. I don't know who was in charge at the time. I had no information
8 at all. I didn't even know it was Gllogjan village, that village. But I
9 saw a relative of Selim. I know that Selim's sister is married there.
10 And I saw his brother-in-law in that house. So I understood from that
11 that the staff was there, and I could see soldiers in uniform around.
12 Q. And what happened at this place, this staff in Gllogjan?
13 A. He opened again the lid of the boot and told me, I have brought
14 you to good people. And he patted me on the shoulder.
15 Someone took me to the second floor of that house. We climbed
16 the stairs. On the right, there was a small room. He had with him a
17 piece of wood.
18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... just pause, please. You
19 said "he." Who is "he," please, who had with him a piece of wood?
20 A. I don't know that person. Not even now I know him.
21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... all right, but you told us
22 that he took you out of the boot. Now, when you refer to that person,
23 who are you referring to? At an earlier stage.
24 A. Lahi took me out of the boot.
25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... now, how did you come to be
Page 1584
1 with another man, this man being a man with a stick, how did that happen?
2 A. First, he was in the yard, when we arrived there. He spoke with
3 Lahi and told -- who told me, I have brought you to good people. And he
4 patted me on the shoulder.
5 This other man didn't have anything with him first. When we were
6 climbing the stairs, there were a wood -- wood there. Pile up there. So
7 he took a piece of wood with him, and we entered that room that I
8 mentioned. And he said to me, Put your hands on the table.
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... just pause there. This man
10 that took you into the small room, what was he wearing, please?
11 A. He was wearing a military uniform, not black uniform, but
12 camouflage uniform.
13 Q. Did it have any badges or insignia on it that you could identify?
14 A. Only KLA, UCK.
15 Q. And apart from this man, did you see any other soldiers around in
16 this staff area that you've described?
17 A. When I entered there, I saw four or five persons, or ten, not
18 more. He put me into that room and said to me, Put your hands on the
19 table. There was a table there. I refused to do that first. And then
20 he started beating me on my body. And then I put my hands on the table.
21 Q. Are you able to describe this room at all in any more detail?
22 Was there any furniture in it? What were the walls like? Did you notice
23 anything about them?
24 A. No, there was -- there were no furniture. There was only one
25 wooden table, like this one here. No, there were no furniture there.
Page 1585
1 Q. And the walls, did you notice anything about them?
2 A. I think I saw some stains of blood in one of the walls. I can't
3 recall whether it was painted or not, but I do know that I saw some
4 stains of blood.
5 Q. You've said that he started beating you on your body. How hard
6 was he doing that?
7 A. As hard as he could.
8 Q. Was he saying anything to you at this time?
9 A. No. He only asked me, What have you done?
10 I responded, I don't know.
11 And then he started to beat me, without saying anything.
12 Q. After you put your hands on the table, what happened then?
13 A. He started to beat me. Until my hands couldn't stand it anymore.
14 And I removed them from the table, and then he continued beating me on my
15 body.
16 This lasted for some ten, 15 minutes. And then two other
17 persons, two young lads, entered the room. They were dressed in black
18 uniform. They asked me, What have you done? What are you accused of?
19 And I said, I don't know.
20 They left the room. The blond guy wanted to come back because -
21 he was blond - to beat me again. But they stopped him from doing that.
22 Q. And where did you -- did you stay in that room or did you go to
23 another room?
24 A. I stayed in that room until these two young men came back and
25 asked me whether I had cigarettes on me. I said I had cigarettes but
Page 1586
1 they were in the car. They brought me cigarettes and matches, and then a
2 person whom I believe to be Ramush, because they said the commander,
3 addressed him as the commander. And it was the same person that I see.
4 And he asked me, Who brought you here? I said, Lahi. He said, What --
5 he offered me bread. He gave me bread. And he took me away from that
6 room. He asked me whether I had a place to stay for the night in the
7 village. I said no, because I don't know anyone here. And he took me to
8 another room. It was a large room where the soldiers used to sleep. And
9 he advised me not to sleep near the window because there are shellings.
10 And that, Tomorrow you can go to your family.
11 Q. And did you stay there that night, or did you leave before the
12 night was out?
13 A. It was 11.00 or so when a soldier came and said to me that, The
14 commander wants you downstairs. I went down with him. I -- I was still
15 afraid.
16 Q. What did you think might happen to you?
17 A. Because I knew that Lahi didn't take me there to become a
18 president. But, of course, to suffer.
19 Q. Why did you think you'd been taken there? You said, Lahi didn't
20 take me there to be a president, but what did you think he'd taken you
21 there for?
22 A. To be executed.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we just clear one little point.
24 You said at 11.00 or so a soldier came. Is this 11.00 a.m. or
25 p.m.? Is it the same day or the same night that you arrived?
Page 1587
1 MR. ROGERS: 11.00 p.m., I think, is the answer.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: On the same day that you arrived? Okay.
3 MR. ROGERS: Yes, Your Honour. That's my understanding.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
5 MR. ROGERS:
6 Q. So a man came into the room, said that the commander is asking
7 for you, words to that effect. You went with him. You didn't know quite
8 what was going to happen. Once you went down the stairs --
9 A. No, no.
10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... what did then happen?
11 A. When I went down the stairs, I saw soldiers. It was dark. And
12 because I was scared of what might befall me, being killed or something,
13 he came up to me and said that, There are people here for you.
14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... who came up to you, please?
15 A. The commander. Or I might say Ramush because he was the
16 commander. And after the war, I was told that it was Ramush in person.
17 Q. So at that time you didn't know who it was but it was the person
18 known as "the commander." Is that a fair summary of your understanding
19 at the time?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. And what did this commander say to you?
22 A. He said to me that, There are people here for you, want to fetch
23 you. First he told me that, You can stay here for the night and that I
24 should be away of the window because of the shelling.
25 He said, If there is nobody here to come and pick you up, I will
Page 1588
1 take you to your family. But Naser came from Jabllanice village with
2 someone else, with Miftar. Miftar Brahimaj. And he said, They have come
3 from Jabllanice to come and pick you up. Forget about what happened. Go
4 to your family and forget about everything. And that, You are free.
5 Q. And you went with them back to Jabllanice; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours, I think that's convenient moment to
9 pause, if that's a convenient moment for the Court. I don't think we'll
10 be very much longer with the witness tomorrow.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. Rogers.
12 Sir, we are not able to finish with your testimony for today, so
13 you'll have to come back tomorrow again at 2.00 in the afternoon -- I beg
14 your pardon, at quarter to 2.00, as you did this afternoon. Same
15 courtroom.
16 Now, remember, you have now taken the oath to tell the truth, the
17 whole truth, and nothing else but the truth, so you may now not discuss
18 the case with anybody, least of all this team here on the side that is
19 asking you questions, until you are released from further testifying,
20 okay?
21 So you are released for the evening. You may come back tomorrow.
22 You may stand down.
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do so, may the Chamber please move into
25 closed session.
Page 1589
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5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
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9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
11 you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 The Chamber stands adjourn to tomorrow, quarter to 2.00 in the
14 afternoon.
15 Court adjourned.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 1st day
18 of November, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.
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