100628ED

Page 4160

1 Monday, 28 June 2010

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.

5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everybody.

6 I'd like to apologise to all for our belated start due to some

7 technical difficulties, which I understand have been resolved.

8 There are several matters before we begin the evidence of the

9 next witness. I would like to address three matters first.

10 First, Mr. Karadzic, with regard to the time available to the

11 accused for cross-examination of Witness KDZ-185, the Chamber advised the

12 parties informally on Thursday last week that a maximum of five hours

13 would be permitted for cross-examination of this witness. The Chamber's

14 assessment that a maximum of five hours is a reasonable time for

15 cross-examination was made on the basis of the criteria we have set out

16 previously, and in particular Mr. Karadzic's own estimate of the time

17 needed for cross-examination, Prosecution's estimate of its time needed

18 for direct examination, the Prosecution's estimate of its time needed for

19 direct examination in addition to the witness's two written statements,

20 as well as the scope and subject matter of the witness's anticipated

21 evidence.

22 And as for the time needed for the next witness, Mr. Mandic,

23 considering the following factors: Number 1, the witness testified for

24 10 days in Krajisnik case, the Prosecution requested a minimum of eight

25 hours to conduct its direct examination of this witness and the large

Page 4161

1 number of documents of exhibits and its page numbers the Prosecution

2 plans to introduce through this witness, the Chamber is of the view that,

3 in total, 20 hours is a reasonable time for the accused's

4 cross-examination of this particular witness.

5 The last matter I would like to deal with in public session is

6 the scheduling.

7 So as you are aware, the Chamber is constrained by the demands on

8 courtroom spaces of all the trials that are currently ongoing. The

9 Registry is, therefore, responsible for ensuring that all trials can sit

10 in accordance with the needs of the respective Chambers, and we are

11 grateful for their efforts to accommodate our requests.

12 In general, it is this Chamber's preference to sit for morning

13 rather than afternoon sessions. And if possible, when there's a

14 courtroom space available both in the morning and afternoon, our

15 preference is to sit from 9.00 to 3.00 p.m., as we originally planned to

16 do so today.

17 I note that on 15th and 16th July, it would appear that this is

18 the situation, and I would therefore like to advise the parties of our

19 intention to sit from 9.00 to 3.00 on those days, subject to any further

20 changes to be advised.

21 And as for today, given the delay in starting, we'll sit until --

22 during the first session until 11.00, and the next session being 11.30 to

23 1.00, and we have one hour lunch break, and we'll sit from 2.00 to 3.30.

24 That said, shall we go into private session briefly.

25 [Private session]

Page 4167

1 given more time. Thank you.

2 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, that is the position. The

3 President made that plain when he first spoke about giving limitations on

4 time for cross-examination. It's bound to be flexible because it may

5 well be that at the end of a well-conducted cross-examination, the

6 Trial Chamber is of the view that you genuinely haven't finished all the

7 matters that you need to put, in which case proper consideration would

8 always be given to extending that time. It's going to be reasonably

9 flexible. There can be no guarantees. But these are not figures which

10 are absolutely set in stone from the outset. These are the likely

11 figures to be reconsidered.

12 JUDGE BAIRD: Dr. Karadzic, I was about to use the very phrase

13 that my Brother Morrison used. These figures are not set in stone and

14 they're flexible. And depending on all circumstances, we would be

15 prepared to extend.

16 JUDGE KWON: However, it will be the case when you will not have

17 wasted the time given to you.

18 That said, we'll draw the curtain and briefly go into closed

19 session to allow the witness to enter the courtroom.

20 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President --

21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Let's go to closed session.

22 [Closed session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4168

11 Page 4168 redacted. Closed session.

Page 4171

1 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Chamber]

2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are now in private session, Ms. Edgerton.

3 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Witness, is it correct that you have given statements under oath

5 in relation to matters relevant to the case that brings us here today on

6 two previous occasions, one in the year 2000 and one in the year 2009?

7 A. Yes, indeed.

8 Q. And in preparing for your testimony today, have you had an

9 opportunity to review those statements and a number of the documents

10 associated with those statements or referred to in those statements?

11 A. Yes, and perhaps you can also show them to me.

12 Q. Perhaps I could ask you the question a slightly different way.

13 During our meeting yesterday to prepare for your testimony today,

14 did you have occasion to review those statements that you had given and a

15 number of the documents referred to in those statements?

16 A. Yes, indeed. This happened yesterday, yes.

17 Q. Do you have any changes, corrections, or other additions to make

18 to those statements?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And if asked the same questions today, would you give the same

21 answers as contained in those statements?

22 A. Yes, I believe so.

23 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Witness.

24 Then, Your Honour, if I could ask that 65 ter 10029, being the

25 statement of 2000, and 22872, being the statement of 2009, be marked as

Page 4172

1 the next exhibits. And there are a number of associated exhibits. I

2 could read those 65 ter numbers out if it assists.

3 JUDGE KWON: You're going to use -- you're going to put none of

4 them to the witness today?

5 MS. EDGERTON: I will be putting a small number of the associated

6 exhibits that were mentioned in those statements to the witness today for

7 further amplification, and a small number of additional exhibits, all of

8 which were part of our initial notification.

9 JUDGE KWON: So we'll admit two statements first and then we'll

10 deal with the remainder at the end of the witness's testimony in direct.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

12 65 ter 10029 will be Exhibit P1048, under seal. And 65 ter 22872

13 will be Exhibit P1049, also under seal.

14 JUDGE KWON: I should note that the exhibit number for the

15 pseudonym sheet should have been P1047.

16 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

17 MS. EDGERTON: And that being under seal as well.

18 Perhaps then we could move into public session and I could read a

19 short summary of the witness's written evidence.

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton, we're now in open session.

23 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

24 I'll now read a summary of the witness's written evidence.

25 This witness, KDZ-185, was in Sarajevo in 1993. He observed

Page 4174

1 stored ammunitions immediately next to the battery.

2 The witness concluded that General Galic exercised effective

3 control over his forces, including snipers. He based this on, among

4 other things, the fact that Galic could effectively implement cease-fires

5 and the integrated wire communication system he observed at

6 Sarajevo Romanija Corps artillery positions around the city. Protests

7 were made to General Galic about the Bosnian Serbs' shelling and sniping

8 of civilians in writing, in person, and through the media.

9 And that is the summary of the written evidence.

10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

11 MS. EDGERTON: If we could now please go into private session.

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

13 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

14 JUDGE KWON: We are now in private session, Ms. Edgerton.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

16 Q. Witness, the first question I'd like to ask you is: Upon your

17 arrival in the city of Sarajevo, did you make any observations as to the

18 safety and security situation in and around the city?

19 A. When I arrived in Sarajevo (redacted), I believe

20 that the city was under siege (redacted), and the city was

21 cut off from the rest of the world, apart from a road -- military convoys

22 that were managed by UNHCR as well as other international humanitarian

23 organisations, as well as the area that was under the supervision of

24 UNPROFOR on Sarajevo Airport. And this siege was staged by the Serbian

25 Army, and the objective was to cut off the town and to make sure that it

Page 4175

1 could not obtain any supplies, and therefore this would allow them to put

2 pressure on the Bosnian government and to surrender.

3 The city, especially at night, seemed to be completely dead,

4 given that there was rarely any electricity, as it was one of the means

5 of pressure, namely, to cut off electricity. This means that the city

6 could not be supplied with electricity as well as with heating, for using

7 electricity for heating, and it also means that there was no way electric

8 pumps could be used to supply water in the various dwellings in Sarajevo,

9 which means that at night the city was completely dark and seemed to be

10 totally deserted. And there were only fires that one could hear here and

11 there, and there were sometimes artillery fire as well.

12 As far as the daylight situation was concerned, the situation was

13 even more dire because we could see the population was trying to survive,

14 and they were moving about trying to find water in the Miljacka River

15 which goes through the center of Sarajevo or they were using wells that

16 were still operating. They were also trying to look for supplies in

17 supplies centres that were set up in the city thanks to humanitarian aid.

18 The inhabitants of Sarajevo were under constant pressure, because

19 depending on the way snipers were operating as well as depending on the

20 direction of artillery fire, they did not know whether they were going to

21 survive much longer because they were one of the prime objectives or

22 targets of fire.

23 This was the situation that I witnessed when I arrived (redacted)

24 (redacted) in Sarajevo.

25 Q. Now, in this answer, you've made several points that I'd like to

Page 4176

1 come back to over the course of your testimony today, and I'll do that by

2 dealing with some of the themes you've spoken about one by one, and by

3 referring back to the statements you've given earlier.

4 First, I'd like to go back to a point in your statement of 2000,

5 on page 13, paragraph 3, (redacted) Now, in regard there -- in

6 regard to sniping, you noted in the original document:

7 "I think that it was important for the Serb side to exercise a

8 permanent pressure of terror. They would do sniping, therefore, from a

9 certain number of positions (redacted)

10 Now -- and in the same document, slightly further at page 16,

11 paragraph 8, you extensively described the effect of shelling on the

12 civilian population of Sarajevo, noting:

13 "As the bombardments coming from the Serbs were completely random

14 and," and I'll quote in your language:

15 [Interpretation] "... and on the town they had not any military

16 targets in mind, which means that it nurtured a climate of terror amongst

17 the population."

18 [In English] Now, when you used this word "terror" as you did on

19 two occasions in respect of both shelling and snipping, what did you mean

20 to convey?

21 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President.

22 I would ask that this question and answer be in public session.

23 I don't think that this is identifying the witness.

24 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.

25 MS. EDGERTON: It's drawn specifically referencing a document

Page 4177

1 under seal, Your Honour, and when the question is drawn from that

2 document under seal, I think it's appropriate that the examination -- the

3 question remain in private session as well.

4 JUDGE KWON: But when you asked the witness to expand on the

5 meaning of "terror," and when we hear the answers from the witness, I

6 don't think there would be any danger of revealing the identity of the

7 witness. So would you agree to go back to open session, ask the last

8 question again, and hear the witness's answer?

9 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE KWON: Let's do that.

11 We go back to open session.

12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

14 MS. EDGERTON:

15 Q. Now, Witness, in your previous statements, when you used this

16 word "terror" in respect of both shelling and sniping, what did you mean

17 to convey?

18 A. Well, I believe that this word "terror" applied very well to the

19 situation of civilian populations, because by nature they do not have any

20 weapons and they cannot retaliate. When you are in a situation whereby

21 you find yourself in a situation where at any time you could be severely

22 hurt or killed by a sniper or by a shell that could fall anywhere in the

23 city, this nurtures this feeling of terror. (redacted)

24 (redacted) When you have an experience in that field and when you

25 have weapons that you can use to defend yourself, and you know that your

Page 4179

1 shelling and sniping?

2 A. I believe that all those actions which had for a prime objective

3 to terrorise the civilian population had one single objective. They

4 wanted for the civilian population to give up, from a psychological point

5 of view, and they wanted to make sure that the party taking the siege

6 make the other party give up.

7 Q. And when you say "they," who are you referring to?

8 A. I'm not quite sure when I said "they," actually.

9 Q. You've just said:

10 "They wanted for the civilian population to give up, from a

11 psychological point of view, and they wanted to make sure that the

12 party," your indulgence for just a moment, "taking the siege would make

13 the other party give up."

14 So when you say "they" in that regard, who are you referring to?

15 A. I'm referring to those who were holding the siege; namely, the

16 Serbian Army, it goes without saying.

17 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. Now to move on to another subject,

18 being shelling, and may I move into private session for the next

19 question, please, Your Honour?

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

21 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4180

1 A. From the beginning of the siege in Sarajevo, there was a

2 monitoring system that was in place with a UN military observer, and

3 their main mission was to report on shelling activities or fire

4 activities of Serbian and Bosnian forces coming from the city and coming

5 from outside the city. (redacted) had a network of observer that were on

6 the Bosnian side, (redacted) had observation positions called Papa and

7 Presidency, and (redacted) a network for the Serbian side outside of the

8 city with observation post called Lima, like "Lukavica." And those

9 observation posts were reporting on shelling that had been carried out by

10 the one or the other belligerent party, based on information such as the

11 fires, the outcreps, as well as the arrival of shells. And they were

12 called increps. So outcreps and increps. And based on this information,

13 (redacted) a very clear idea as to the shelling activity of the various

14 forces that were at hand.

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 A. Based on the reports that we would receive, (redacted) confirmations

18 on information that (redacted) on the various artillery input and

19 heavy weapons that the Serbian forces had, as well as the Bosnian forces

20 had, and (redacted) confirmation that there were quite a lot of heavy

21 weapons owned by the Serbs outside of Sarajevo and this was in support of

22 the siege of Sarajevo.

23 Q. In terms of the type of shelling coming into the city, was there

24 any variation?

25 A. Well, indeed, yes. From the Serbian side, given that the types

Page 4181

1 of artillery of the Serbian forces, namely, the Republika Srpska, were

2 coming from the former JNA, namely, the Yugoslav Army, they had the

3 typical heavy weaponry, a lot of tanks as well, as well as the -- whereas

4 the Bosnian had an improvised army, if we could say so, because it was

5 created out of nothing, and they had very little heavy weapons. They had

6 mainly infantry units, and they had very little artillery units. (redacted)

7 (redacted) they had a multiple rocket-launcher that

8 they were carrying around the city, but they mainly had mortar shells

9 that they were using as heavy weapons and they did not have any heavy

10 pieces of artillery, unlike the Serbian forces. But I'm talking about

11 Sarajevo itself there.

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4182

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are now in open session.

18 Let's continue, Ms. Edgerton.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

20 Q. In terms of the manner of shelling into the city, did you see

21 fire -- in terms of the manner of shelling into the city, what types of

22 incoming fire did you see?

23 A. I saw two types of artillery shelling. The first type was truly

24 military actions, traditional artillery use just to support a military

25 action. Thus, I saw one of the Serbian Army's actions on -- that put me

Page 4183

1 aside, where there were tanks attacking with shelling. But that was a

2 truly military action, and I would say that this had a military aim.

3 They wanted to win ground.

4 The second type of artillery use was to increase psychological

5 pressure on the population and also on the Bosnian government, so then

6 they were just firing at random on the city in a totally random fashion,

7 and that is something which I had the opportunity to see, since I was

8 stationed in the city. So we were also exposed to these random

9 shellings.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

11 If I could please go into private session to refer to an answer

12 the witness has given in that regard and ask the next question.

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

14 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

15 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

17 Q. Just a few moments ago, Witness, you referred to something called

18 outcreps and increps. Do you remember that?

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted) the reports from the UN observers, and these

22 were very detailed reports. They detailed the outgoing shellings, and

23 also stating the type of weapons used, MROs and guns and anti-tank

24 weapons and anti-aircraft weapons, so that was the outgoing shelling.

25 And the second category was the ingoing [as interpreted] shelling when

Page 4184

1 they could determine the type of ammunition which was arriving on the

2 targets, when there were such targets. And these two categories of

3 observations were subdivided or specified as coming from the Serbian side

4 or coming from the Bosnian side. This, of course, was in principle, what

5 arrived from the Serbian side was aimed at the Bosnian side, and

6 vice versa.

7 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

8 Could I please ask for 65 ter 09583, a Sector Sarajevo sitrep for

9 the time-period of 20 to 21 March 1993. Thank you.

10 Q. Witness, is this one of the -- first of all, do you recognise

11 this document?

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 MS. EDGERTON: If we could please go to page 3. Thank you.

16 Q. Now, this document, which reads "Daily Sarajevo Shootrep/Increp,"

17 is that the "increp/outcrep" report you referred to earlier in your

18 evidence?

19 A. Yes, that is quite correct. You can see first the outcreps, the

20 outgoing fire, and then after that you see the increps, and there is a

21 separation between coming from the Serb side and coming from the Bosnian

22 side and the type of material used.

23 Q. Now, at the bottom of this page, I note paragraph 4 reads:

24 "The following incoming fire was observed on Bosnian-controlled

25 areas:"

Page 4185

1 And it lists artillery at 1.570; mortar, 532.

2 And if we could go to page 4, please. "Tank, 60," on page 4.

3 And the next question I would like to ask you, then: Does this

4 document and this information relate to any situation you've previously

5 given about?

6 A. Yes, that is quite correct. If you look at the dates that

7 corresponds to the time when there was a peak of shelling and that I

8 observed myself, and that peak occurred at the moment when there was the

9 attack of a Bosniak brigade to the Serb supply line, and in fact there

10 was then -- on the side of the Serbs, they defended themselves, and they

11 then shelled the city and the Bosniak positions in the city on the

12 front-line.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

14 Could this document please be given the next Prosecution exhibit

15 number.

16 JUDGE KWON: It doesn't have to be put under seal; is that

17 correct?

18 MS. EDGERTON: If I could just double-check, please, the first

19 page of the document.

20 I don't see a need for it to be under seal.

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4186

11 Page 4186 redacted. Private session.

Page 4189

1 the Bosnian government was absent because I think they were in New York

2 at that point in time, so we still have to see whether the aim was not on

3 the part of the Bosnians to show that they still had resources left and

4 that they wanted to go to negotiation, but this is just speculation on my

5 part. The only ones who know for sure are the authorities concerned.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

7 Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honour.

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]

9 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry for the time I'm taking, Your Honours,

10 but it is, as you can appreciate it, a sensitive situation.

11 JUDGE BAIRD: We do appreciate that, Madam. We do appreciate

12 that, we do.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

14 I would like to ask if we could go into private session again,

15 please.

16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

17 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4190

11 Pages 4190-4192 redacted. Private session.

Page 4206

11 Page 4206 redacted. Private session.

Page 4207

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are now back in open session.

4 Ms. Edgerton.

5 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

6 Q. Witness, in your statement of the year 2000, page 15 -- e-court

7 page 15, paragraph 4, you refer to weapons held by the warring factions

8 and set out some certain numbers held by the forces around Sarajevo,

9 saying:

10 [Interpretation] "Around Sarajevo, there were some 300 heavy

11 weapons of a calibre above 14.5 millimetres, ranging to 152 millimetres,

12 including MRLs, but most of the weapons were artillery guns, anti-tank

13 guns, or 102-millimetre and 152-millimetre guns."

14 [In English] Now, Witness, do you see any correspondence here in

15 this document between the numbers of weapons held by the

16 Sarajevo Romanija Corps and the information you gave in the year 2000?

17 A. If I refer back to the chart that is in front of me on the

18 screen, it is dated 1994, and I was not in Sarajevo at the time. But I

19 note that the figures in the 20-kilometre zone roughly match the figures

20 I had in mind when I arrived in Sarajevo early 1993. Of course, there

21 must have been fluctuations in between the dates, but it's roughly in

22 keeping with my estimate. And you can see in the chart that are only

23 mentioned weapons above a calibre above the heavy machine-gun which are

24 of a 14.5-millimetre calibre.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, moving --

Page 4208

1 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton, do we have the year noted in this

2 document? Is it 1994? Where do you have it? Or, Mr. Witness, how did

3 you understand this to be related to 1994?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is what the Prosecutor

5 just said two minutes ago. She said that this was a chart dated 1994.

6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

7 MS. EDGERTON: It's following the creation of the total exclusion

8 zone in February 1994, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you very much.

10 MS. EDGERTON:

11 Q. To move on to another subject, then, Witness, the subject of

12 sniping: In your statement of the year 2000, e-court page 13,

13 paragraph 2, you noted:

14 [Interpretation] "I have never been to sniper nests, but we had

15 information as to the way they had been set up."

16 [In English] Could you explain what that information was that you

17 had as to the way they had been set up?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can we move to

19 private session?

20 JUDGE KWON: By all means.

21 Let's go into private session.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4209

11 Pages 4209-4211 redacted. Private session.

Page 4215

1 A. As for the first page, it seems to be accurate regarding the

2 point of impact of the shells that fell in this area, and you can see the

3 general direction of the fire, and so we can deduce from there where was

4 the point where those shells were fires. But there is some margin of

5 error, but we can see that the angle is the south-east, so it was in the

6 direction of the south-east and it was coming from the

7 Republika Srpska -- it was on the side of the Republika Srpska.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

9 I wonder if these pages 9, 10, and 11, which form Appendix A to

10 this document, could be admitted, please, only these three pages.

11 JUDGE KWON: You're suggesting tendering only three pages of this

12 document; is that correct ?

13 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.

14 JUDGE KWON: 9, 10, and 11. Very well. This is -- yes, we'll

15 admit those three pages.

16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1053, Your Honours.

17 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

18 Q. Moving on --

19 A. You asked me to talk about the following two pages, but I've only

20 seen one on the screen so far.

21 There we go, we have the second one.

22 Well, I would have the same comments regarding the second page.

23 Very well, thank you.

24 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you very much, Witness.

25 JUDGE KWON: We appreciate your precision, Mr. Witness.

Page 4216

1 MS. EDGERTON:

2 Q. Moving on to your statement of 2009: In response to questions

3 about documents emanating from the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, you said, and

4 I'll quote:

5 [Interpretation] "As far as I'm concerned, this is additional evidence that

6 the Bosnian Serb commander or commanding structure was very centralized and

7 no action on the ground, namely, shelling or sniping, was carried out without

8 an authorisation coming probably from the highest level of the hierarchy."

9 [In English] Do you recall giving this answer?

10 A. Yes, of course, (redacted)

11 Q. Could you expand on this answer, please? And perhaps I could

12 guide you with this first question. What exactly about these documents

13 led you to this conclusion?

14 A. You're talking about the reports that were drafted by

15 General Galic to his superiors?

16 Q. Correct.

17 A. Very well. I learned on that occasion, during the 2009 interview,

18 that General Galic, as a highly professional military man, reported to

19 his command every evening about everything that had happened within the

20 SRK, and about the various meetings that he may have had with different

21 persons. He was also talking about the various meetings that he would

22 have had during the day. So this is a proof that the military

23 organisation was working very well.

24 The other point that shows that there was a very good hierarchy,

25 which is what you should have in a professional army, and the reason why

Page 4217

1 it shows that it was working very well is that every time there was

2 negotiations at the airport, as one knows, it was UNPROFOR that was in

3 charge of security. Whether there were delegations, Croatian, or

4 Serbian, in Lukavica or they were coming either from Lukavica or from

5 Kiseljak, I don't quite remember, but we would take charge of the

6 transport from those sites, and there was never any fire against UN

7 convoys that were taking those people to the location where negotiations

8 would take place.

9 And after the negotiations, whatever the time that negotiations

10 would be concluded, whether it was early or very late at night, there was

11 also no problem for those delegations to go back to the location where we

12 had taken charge of them in the first place, so whether it was Lukavica

13 or any other location. And most of those negotiations were organised in

14 order to set up a cease-fire that was more or less long, depending on the

15 will of the various warring parties, and we noticed that when there was a

16 cease-fire that was assigned, the shelling would almost cease immediately

17 to the second as soon as the cease-fire had been agreed upon, which

18 showed that the command system from both sides, actually, was working

19 very well. It also showed that the decision was made at corps level.

20 But I believe that General Galic - and in fact I've seen that in light of

21 reports he drafted - General Galic would not have failed to report to his

22 superiors before taking any initiative.

23 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton and Mr. Robinson, unless there's a

24 serious objection, I would tell the Registry to redact the second part of

25 line 2 of page 57. But I take it the words that appears in line 18 on

Page 4218

1 page 57 would be okay.

2 Let's continue.

3 MS. EDGERTON:

4 Q. When you said that -- in your answer -- in your 2009 statement,

5 when you said that shelling and sniping, in particular, would not take

6 place without an authorisation coming from the highest level in the

7 hierarchy, were you referring to specific shelling and sniping incidents,

8 then, individual incidents?

9 A. No, I was talking about this from a general point of view. And

10 as for specific incidents, what was quite telling is that all shelling or

11 all sniping would stop as soon as a cease-fire had been agreed upon. I

12 was actually surprised, myself, because I felt or I thought that snipers

13 were far less controlled than they were. In fact, they were perfectly

14 controlled.

15 And I should like to add something that I forgot to say earlier

16 on, that from a general point of view when talking about the

17 Army of Republika Srpska, as I said, it was derived directly from the

18 Yugoslav Army, and as I was saying, the Republika Srpska had been very

19 based, if I could say, in a culture where there was very little

20 initiative at lower levels in the hierarchy.

21 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, that will conclude my

22 examination-in-chief.

23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

24 Then we'll come to your associated exhibits. You're going to

25 tender all of them?

Page 4219

1 MS. EDGERTON: There's actually one I'd like to withdraw.

2 JUDGE KWON: Is it, by any chance, 8191? No, I'm sorry.

3 MS. EDGERTON: I'd like to withdraw 14344.

4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

5 Is there any objection, Mr. Robinson?

6 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll accept, but for that 14344, all of the

8 associated exhibits will be admitted, and the Court Deputy will assign

9 the number and circulate them in due course.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

11 JUDGE KWON: We have about 20 minutes before the second break,

12 Mr. Karadzic. Do you like to begin your cross-examination?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it's not that I have this

14 burning desire to do so, but it's for the Trial Chamber to decide.

15 Whatever you decide is fine with me.

16 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let's begin your cross-examination. However,

17 while I understand your dissatisfaction with the protective measures, but

18 bear that in mind, it is much better than hearing entire evidence in the

19 closed session. And then I take it you understood what measures should

20 be taken to ask certain categories of questions, so I would expect your

21 co-operation, and I believe that will save our time as well.

22 Let's start.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

Page 4220

1 I shall do my best to put brief questions so that yes or no would

2 suffice as an answer. That should help us finish on time. Therefore, I

3 would like to remind you of some parts of your previous statements.

4 Is it correct that when you first came to our town, that most of

5 the damage had been caused at the front-line, was registered at the

6 front-line, itself?

7 A. I think that according to what I saw, the front-line was rather

8 extensive. If we look at all the damage which had been caused around the

9 airport area, especially, and also around the access to the new town, in

10 the old town it is true that there was less damage, except that the

11 library had been totally destroyed, which was quite significant.

12 Q. Thank you. So you do confirm that most of the buildings had been

13 intact, as you had put it once?

14 A. I can't really say that most of the buildings were intact. For

15 me, "intact" means that there is no trace whatsoever of shelling or of

16 shooting. Most buildings, and especially modern buildings, bore traces

17 of some fire. There were broken windows, window-panes, which clearly

18 showed that shells had fallen either in the vicinity or on the building

19 itself. But as I said earlier on, since most of the artillery shellings

20 were random, most of the buildings were not completely destroyed; far

21 from that, even. But when you want -- when buildings -- when people

22 wanted to destroy buildings, then other measures were used, if we look at

23 what was published in the newspaper "Oslobodjenje".

24 Q. Thank you. (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4221

1 (redacted) If you wish, I can even

2 give a direct quote.

3 The question was:

4 [In English] "You said that --"

5 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Just let's go back -- go into

6 private session briefly.

7 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4222

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 "A. Yes. This is in keeping with my prior statement, when I

17 said that the artillery fire on Sarajevo aimed either at supporting

18 proper military actions on the front-line with major destruction of

19 buildings or at having random shelling, which in that case would not

20 destroyed as much."

21 [Interpretation] Is this what you said, Witness?

22 A. Yes, that is what I said. I repeat that most buildings were

23 completely destroyed, except for certain targets which had been decided

24 by I don't know whom. I can quote the newspaper, "Oslobodjenje," I can

25 also quote other sources, but most of the other -- most of the total

Page 4223

1 destructions were not far from the front-line.

2 Q. I have to ask you now: Right now, you added something that you

3 never said before, "totally destroyed." You never said "totally

4 destroyed" before. What was it that led you to say that?

5 A. Between the term "destroyed" and "totally destroyed," there's not

6 a big difference. For me, it is the case when you can no longer live in

7 a house because -- or dwelling because you have no protection left, when

8 the public utilities are no longer available. But, of course, there's a

9 subtle difference between "totally destroyed" and just "destroyed." I

10 just want to say that it is a stronger way of saying exactly the same

11 thing.

12 Q. And what about buildings on which the window-panes were broken;

13 are they just damaged, or destroyed, or totally destroyed?

14 A. No, I explained earlier on that they were just -- these were

15 damaged, but some of the modern buildings of the city of Sarajevo bore

16 traces. Either the window-panes were broken, or there had been fires

17 after the impact of shelling, or there were traces of firing. But people

18 were still living in those buildings, fortunately for them.

19 And I would like to add, to be even more precise, that along the

20 front-line, and especially near Dobrinja and close to the airport, this

21 reminded me of things I saw during the siege of Stalingrad.

22 Q. Can you tell us which buildings in Sarajevo had been totally

23 destroyed?

24 A. Yes. I already quoted two buildings, the newspaper,

25 "Oslobodjenje," where they only had the underground part where the

Page 4225

1 Q. I am not going to state what the situation was in which you had

2 said this, Witness, but can you confirm what you said; namely, that you

3 were familiar with the situation concerning the 10th Mountain Brigade in

4 Sarajevo?

5 A. Is that a question? Could you please reformulate your question,

6 please.

7 Q. Were you familiar with the 10th Mountain Brigade and its

8 commander, Musan Topalovic, nicknamed Caco?

9 A. Yes, I was aware of the various sectors where the various Bosnian

10 brigades were stationed outside Sarajevo, and I knew what the sector of

11 the 10th Mountain Brigade was, of course. I know that for the event we

12 referred to this morning, the 10th Brigade tried to cut off the supply

13 line of the Serbian Army on the road to Pale.

14 Q. Am I right if I say that the area of responsibility of the

15 10th Mountain Brigade that was commanded by Caco was within the town

16 rather than out of town?

17 A. Based on the information I had, yes, they were stationed or at

18 least they were on the front-line, as was the case for all Bosnian

19 brigades which were holding the front-line facing the Serb units.

20 Q. Thank you. Since you mentioned that the objective of their

21 attack was -- or, rather, it was the 21st of that month that you had

22 mentioned -- was to cut off the supply line, what was their ultimate

23 objective? Was it not to take Grbavica, Lukavica, and parts that depend

24 on that supply line ultimately?

25 A. I have no idea about that since I was not a member of the Bosnian

Page 4226

1 command who knew what they were doing. The only thing I saw was that

2 there was an attack of the 10th Mountain Brigade on this supply line.

3 The final aim that -- I was never informed of the final aim by the

4 Bosnian military superiors.

5 Q. Wasn't that objective obvious? If the supply line is being cut

6 off, is that not intended to take away what had been cut off?

7 A. I'm not here to do any strategic -- strategise. I'm just here to

8 tell you what I experienced personally. I will not say any more.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE KWON: I'm noting the time. We'll have a break now.

11 THE ACCUSED: An hour or what?

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll have an hour. We'll resume at 2.00.

13 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 2.06 p.m.

15 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Witness, sir, I will very, very briefly put to you something that

19 you said on earlier occasions, and if you fail to recall that or I need

20 to quote from somewhere, I'll ask for private session. Until then, that

21 will not be necessary.

22 Do you remember saying, about Caco, that this is not a man you

23 would like to meet often?

24 A. Yes, after I met him once.

25 Q. Do you know that he is a well-known criminal, almost like his

Page 4227

1 entire staff?

2 A. I knew that he had some issues with the judicial system

3 beforehand, yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Do you know that in the end, he organised an armed

5 insurgency against the authorities and he was liquidated? You mentioned

6 that he was liquidated.

7 A. Yes, I know about that. That was after I left Sarajevo.

8 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that his command was at Bistrik, about

9 100 metres from the command of the Egyptian Battalion?

10 A. Yes, his headquarters were, if I remember properly, opposite the

11 barracks where the Egyptian Battalion was based.

12 Q. Thank you. Did you say on certain occasions that you were aware

13 that the Bosnian -- that is, the Muslim side wished to keep Sarajevo in

14 the focus of international attention and present it as a very serious

15 situation?

16 A. Indeed.

17 Q. Thank you. Did you say on certain occasions that you had seen at

18 least one multiple rocket-launcher that was mobile and was moved around

19 different parts of the city? In the possession of the Muslim army, of

20 course.

21 A. Personally, I did not see this multiple rocket-launcher. I heard

22 it as it fired on several occasions not far from the place where I used

23 to live.

24 Q. Thank you. Is it true that you said on occasion that the Muslim

25 side shot in the back of the UN forces, who were on their way to assist

Page 4228

1 in the repair of power supply lines and other installations?

2 A. Yes, I said so, and I witnessed that.

3 Q. Thank you. Do you recall saying that it was in the interests of

4 the Muslim army that power supply lines should not be repaired and that

5 that was the reason for their action, rather than something personal

6 against you?

7 A. One moment, please. I didn't quite understand your question.

8 You said between the fact that the Muslim or Bosnian army did not want

9 the power supply lines to be repaired -- and then I failed to understand

10 the second part of your question. Would you mind repeating it?

11 Q. That that was the reason why they shot at you, that they wanted

12 to prevent you from assisting in the repair, not that they had anything

13 personal against you.

14 A. I understand better now. Yes, I believe that they wanted to

15 prevent the lines from being repaired. And at any rate, as far as I

16 know, they didn't know I was present, they didn't know I was among the

17 repair team.

18 Q. Thank you. A moment ago, you said that this multiple

19 rocket-launcher was set up in the vicinity of your location so that they

20 would associate their firing position with the UN location and thus stop

21 the Serbs from retaliating or at least have the Serbs take the blame for

22 shooting at the United Nations force?

23 A. No, I do not think so. I will give you some explanations.

24 Indeed, they would use -- or they would get closer to the UN

25 force positions in order to fire, in the hope that the Serbian Army would

Page 4229

1 not fire back at them since they were positioned in the vicinity of UN

2 installations. So as it were, they were seeking shelter behind our very

3 relative humility, because we had wounded and killed among our personnel.

4 Q. Thank you. Did they inform you that before your arrival,

5 General Sidoranko [phoen] had presented such a request to Siber to move

6 closer to the United Nations and fire from there?

7 A. I'm not aware of that, and I do not know a General Sidoranko.

8 Q. Never mind. We have that document in evidence, so I won't

9 insist. Did you say, although it does follow from your confirmation,

10 that it was in the interests of the Muslim side to dramatise the

11 situation in Sarajevo, especially at times of cease-fire, when the media

12 attention towards Sarajevo was lower, that they would intensify even

13 sniper fire against their own people?

14 A. I can't remember what I said exactly in those documents, if any,

15 but I can state this now: I do believe that in order to make up for

16 their inferiority, in military terms, the Bosnian government would carry

17 out a kind of media war.

18 Q. Thank you. And for that purpose, they staged various dramatic

19 incidents around the city?

20 A. That's what I was told, and I believe that I, too, have witnessed

21 such incidents.

22 Q. Thank you. You had one opportunity to eye-witness that a shell

23 targeted a building in Markale, had been fired from Muslim territory,

24 with an error of margin of maximum 300, 400 metres, and it was obvious

25 that the Serbs could not have fired it?

Page 4230

1 A. I did not witness this, this hit, with my own eyes, but I know it

2 reached the courtyard of a residential block not far from the Markale

3 market-place, and there were crater analyses carried out then which,

4 indeed, showed that it was very likely that the shell was fired from a

5 position close to the front-line to the north of the city.

6 Q. Thank you. When was that crater analysis done, in which period?

7 A. Well, I can't remember the exact date right now. But as to the

8 analysis, the crater analysis, it was carried out straight away as soon

9 as the UN, the UNPROFOR, heard of it.

10 Q. Is it of any significance that the analysis was done immediately

11 after the event?

12 A. Yes, indeed, because in this way it could be made sure that there

13 was no meddling with the data on the ground, so that you could have as

14 objective a crater analysis as possible, you couldn't tamper with the

15 evidence.

16 Q. Does the site, itself, deteriorate naturally, without any

17 tampering, unless the analysis is done immediately?

18 A. I think that you can remove evidence or traces, for instance,

19 fragments of shells all around, and also the impact of the shell, itself,

20 will fade away with time, as time goes by. So, you know, time does its

21 work, so you have to carry out this type of analysis as quickly as

22 possible.

23 Q. Thank you. There were also protest notes sent to the Army of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina over the targeting of a location just 200 metres away

25 from the PTT building, and the Muslim army was warned not to do that

Page 4231

1 again; is that correct?

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

12 We go into private session.

13 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4232

11 Page 4232 redacted. Private session.

Page 4233

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted) I had been in Sarajevo for a while, and I saw

8 that just about every night there were killed and wounded among the

9 civilian population, children, women, elderly people, due to Serbian

10 fire, flanking fire on the airport, using the part where the people were

11 trying to come in and out of Sarajevo, and I thought this was

12 inadmissible, unacceptable. (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

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24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4234

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 A. Yes, I'm about certain that I said that, because eventually you

11 realise that if the Sarajevo population was generally hostage to the

12 Serbs, because it was a besieged city within the city, there were other

13 hostages, i.e., the Serbian minority held by the Bosnian Muslim

14 authorities, to start with. And this phenomenon recurred later on in

15 spring, when they also held within the city the Bosnian Croats.

16 Q. Thank you. A moment ago, you said the Serbs fired at the runway.

17 Did the Muslims also fire at the runway from Butmir, and did you state so

18 at least on one previous occasion?

19 A. The Bosnian Muslims from Butmir, as far as I know, never fired on

20 Bistrik. I fail to see what you mean.

21 Q. I said "runway," not "Bistrik." "Runway."

22 A. Oh. On the landing strip on the runway, there were some stray

23 shells because the airport was in the very heart of the confrontations

24 between the Serbs and the Muslims. Inevitably, there would be shells

25 landing that could land in the airport area when there was crossfire --

Page 4236

1 escape to the occupied territory, and in their terminology, "occupied

2 territory" is Grbavica:

3 "Since this is a frequent occurrence and it always happens across

4 the zone held by the HVO, and that all previous attempts were prevented

5 by opening fire and then pulling out the wounded, with danger to the

6 lives of our fighting men, we demand that the necessary action be

7 urgently taken, in terms of security, with HVO units to finally put an

8 end to this."

9 This means that an elderly woman, who was trying to get across to

10 Grbavica, was shot by them. Did you know about such things happening?

11 A. I would like to obtain a translation, either in English or in

12 French, of this document, because unfortunately I do not speak

13 Serbo-Croatian and I'm not able to read it, either, whether it's in Latin

14 alphabet or in Cyrillic.

15 Q. This is indubitably a document from the 10th Mountain Brigade.

16 It was signed by the assistant commander in charge of security,

17 Senad Hasic [phoen]. This is beyond doubt. It's a document obtained by

18 the Prosecution.

19 JUDGE KWON: This is a pure waste of time. Just put your

20 question, whether he knows the incident or not.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. You confirmed that they had held civilians in the city. Are you

23 aware that they were also prepared to shoot at people who were trying to

24 get away without their permission, and they actually did shoot at them?

25 A. I haven't been made aware of this specific incident. I do know

Page 4237

1 that, indeed, government forces had established control positions in

2 Dobrinja. It's a road that is parallel to the runway, and they were

3 checking people going through towards the airport. So no one could

4 really go without being checked.

5 Q. Thank you. This is an incident where a person was wounded. It

6 was an attempt to kill a person at Vrbanja Bridge. Do you know where it

7 is?

8 A. And unfortunately, he is notorious in my country for reasons that

9 you know very well.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

11 JUDGE KWON: I don't think I followed your last answer,

12 Mr. Witness. Could you repeat your answer?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, but I can also

14 expand on this.

15 Port Vrbanja was the location where a French position of UNPROFOR

16 was attacked by Serb troops that were wearing UN uniforms, and so this is

17 what happened there.

18 JUDGE KWON: So you heard of the incident?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not of the incident that

20 Mr. Karadzic, the accused, was talking about, but I know the bridge,

21 Vrbanja. I knew where it was, and I also went there eventually. I knew

22 very well where it was in Sarajevo.

23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, following our principle, we'll not

24 admit this because the witness was not able to confirm anything about

25 this one and knew nothing about the incident, but for the bridge.

Page 4238

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was more interested in the

2 phenomenon, as such. I know that he couldn't be aware of each and every

3 incident, but it is up to you, of course.

4 JUDGE KWON: I think I said "knew nothing about the incident, but

5 for the bridge." Let's move on.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Now, did you say that you escorted a high official of your

8 country to a Serb settlement, on which occasion the Muslims shot at you

9 to stop that?

10 JUDGE KWON: Stop there. Shall we go into private session.

11 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4239

1 Q. May I now remind you that (redacted)

2 (redacted) you stated that you had been

3 aware that the reason for Serb attacks was their wish to prevent the

4 Muslim attack on their supply lines, and you confirmed that today.

5 That's the incident of 21st March.

6 A. Yes, indeed, the incident on the 21st of March was designed in

7 such a way by Serb forces to wage a counter-attack and to retaliate

8 against the attack from the 10th Mountain Brigade, but their response was

9 of a disproportionate nature because part of the shelling targeted the

10 old town, whereas the soldiers of the 10th Mountain Brigade were actually

11 not based in the old town. They were on the front-line, and in

12 parallel -- we've seen it yesterday because figures were showed by the

13 Prosecutor. We saw, as I was saying, that there was a retaliatory fire

14 organised by Serb forces in the proximity of the airport near Butmir by

15 artillery forces.

16 Q. Thank you. Is it the case that the staff and the logistics and

17 the whole base of the 10th Mountain Brigade were in Bistrik, and Bistrik

18 is a part of the old town?

19 A. The General Staff of the 10th Mountain Brigade was opposite -- on

20 the opposite side of the headquarters of the Egyptian Battalion, but it

21 was an area that was rather restricted in surface area and most of the

22 shelling targeted the old town beyond the Miljacka River. So I believe

23 that it was rather surprising to have really pounded the old town while

24 actually trying to target the headquarters of the 10th Mountain Brigade.

25 As for the logistics of the Serb, Bosnian, Muslim brigades, they were of

Page 4240

1 a small nature, because in order to get supply, albeit food or munitions,

2 they didn't really need a logistical depot, and as for fuel, they did not

3 need any, because they were fighting on foot.

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted) how many troops of the 10th

18 Mountain Brigade were in the area where the shells were falling?

19 A. You mean how many soldiers there were in the old town? As far as

20 I'm concerned, I don't think there were many soldiers. The soldiers were

21 on the front-lines, so above the Jewish cemetery on the road to Pale, and

22 they were not fighting based in the old town. They were fighting in the

23 outskirts of the old city when going towards Pale.

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4241

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 I would like to come back on troop deployment, and I mean troops

12 from the Bosnian government. I experienced this part of the war within

13 the city of Sarajevo, so I know full well what was happening there,

14 unlike others. And I know full well that Bosnian troops were deployed on

15 the front-line. They had no barracks, apart from small headquarters.

16 And when soldiers were taken off the front-line, they were going back

17 home. In fact, they were going back home without their weapons, because

18 there was not enough weapons for everyone, and so I have witnessed

19 columns of soldiers that were going to the front-line and they didn't

20 have weapons because they would swap weapons or exchange weapons when

21 they arrived on the front-line. So the fact that some soldiers were

22 based in the city is actually not correct.

23 Q. Did you know that one organic component of the 10th

24 Mountain Brigade was the Anti-Sabotage Detachment, Bascarsija, from

25 Old Town, and they were deployed all over the old town, their logistics

Page 4243

1 Can we now have 1D1872, please. I believe that there is a

2 translation. Yes, there is.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness, now we are slowly moving on to the 1st of June and what

5 happened on the 1st of June. This document speaks about what the

6 Sarajevo Romanija Corps did, we see it here, from the 22nd of May

7 onwards.

8 Do you recall that at the time, it had been agreed to exclude the

9 use of fire-arms from 12.7-millimetre calibre onwards?

10 A. I see this document for the first time. I have never seen it

11 before, and this doesn't really ring any bell.

12 Q. And do you know that at the time, there was a cease-fire that was

13 on?

14 A. I do not want to be sarcastic, but there has been a lot of

15 cease-fires and it could be -- it could well be that there was a

16 cease-fire on that day, but I don't recall exactly.

17 Q. And do you know that the Serb side -- well, I think that this is

18 the time when weaponry was being monitored by the UN. Do you remember

19 that it was forbidden to use all artillery pieces from 12.7-millimetre

20 calibre upwards?

21 A. Artillery pieces were placed at that time. I don't recall that.

22 If I remember correctly, it's this time where we talked about the

23 demilitarisation of the Gorazde and Zepa enclaves, but I don't remember

24 that at that time artillery pieces of calibre higher than 12.7 were

25 actually monitored. I think that it post-dates that period, because we

Page 4244

1 do not have the ways and means to monitor those artillery pieces at that

2 time. (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 Q. Thank you. Do you doubt the authenticity of this document, this

6 order of General Galic's to involve officers and even the police, if

7 necessary, in order to rule out any possibility of firing at town using

8 12.7-millimetre-calibre weapons and bigger than that? You did see quite

9 a few of Galic's documents, so do you know -- I mean, do you doubt the

10 authenticity of this document? It's the OTP that provided this document

11 to us.

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, it's not for the witness to speculate

13 or give opinion about something, including the authenticity of a document

14 he knows nothing about.

15 In the meantime, I think deleting the last sentence of the

16 witness's previous answer -- Ms. Edgerton, was that the reason?

17 MS. EDGERTON: Actually, with respect to Your Honours, whether or

18 not the document was provided by the OTP is no indication of the

19 authenticity of the document, itself.

20 JUDGE KWON: I think he understands it by now.

21 Let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

23 JUDGE KWON: No, we'll not admit this, Mr. Karadzic.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] All right.

25 (redacted)

Page 4249

1 Q. Witness, I would like to put a few things to you in relation to

2 which we have authentic documents; namely, that before the 1st of June,

3 there was a cease-fire in force, the Serb side observed it within the

4 scope of its possibilities, and it really went far, and, on the other

5 hand, the Muslim side violated that cease-fire agreement. What do you

6 say to that?

7 A. As I said earlier on, there have been so many cease-fires that I

8 don't really remember them. I know that when there was a cease-fire, it

9 didn't last for very long, and one party or the other would violate them.

10 Q. However, in this case we have documents showing that the

11 Sarajevo Romanija Corps is reporting to the Main Staff about the

12 situation as it was, and they cannot lie in such documents, they have to

13 tell the truth. It never happened that they would lie in their reports.

14 We have this document, if it's still here. I hope that you have it on

15 the ELMO. That you have the translation on the ELMO, that is.

16 You see, paragraph 1, all the things that the enemy was doing;

17 attacking Faletic, Sucura Kuce -- can we have the next page in English,

18 please?

19 If you can stop at this point, yes.

20 See, the enemy was also firing from Hotonj, and so on and so

21 forth, at Vogosca as well.

22 Can we have the next page, please. Paragraph 2, the next page.

23 See, it says -- well, it says "number 1," but it's actually

24 number 2. It says:

25 "Our units have taken measures to observe the cease-fire."

Page 4250

1 Can we move on to paragraph 6 now, please, the last sentence.

2 Paragraph 6, here it is. Well, it says "number 5" here:

3 [In English] "The problem of food, ammunition ... is really

4 critical."

5 [Interpretation] Now, number 8, the conclusion.

6 Here is the conclusion:

7 "The units of the corps, as a whole, are fully observing the

8 order on the cessation of hostilities, but it is not being observed by

9 the enemy at the entire front, and the most frequent fire is coming from

10 the Muslim part of Sarajevo, Pazarici, Visoko, and from Igman. This is

11 particularly strong when important delegations of VIPs come to Sarajevo.

12 Since they only go to the Muslim side, they get a false picture of who it

13 is that is not observing the signed cease-fire agreements."

14 This is a strictly-confidential document, a military secret. It

15 is not intended for the media. He is reporting to his superior command

16 about the situation in the corps, and so on. Do you believe this, sir?

17 A. There's nothing that shows me that this was something which

18 actually happened. So there might have been provocations on the Bosnian

19 side, yes, certainly, but to determine whether the situation of the Serb

20 forces is as it was described here, I cannot know.

21 Q. Does the following correspond to your own experience; namely,

22 that the Muslim forces would open fire when various delegations were

23 there in order to tarnish the reputation of the Serbs?

24 A. That is possible, yes.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 4251

1 Can this document be admitted?

2 JUDGE KWON: Likewise, Mr. Karadzic, the witness didn't know

3 anything about the content of this document. We'll not admit it.

4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. At one point, you said that the Serbs have 122- and

6 150-millimetre artillery, but that the Muslim side does not have 122 and

7 over 150; isn't that right?

8 A. Yes. As far as I know, yes, and from the reports we received

9 inside the town. So inside the town, we did not find any such pieces of

10 artillery.

11 Q. Is the Muslim side the one that reported to you about this or did

12 it come from an impartial source?

13 A. I remind you of the fact that UNPROFOR was quite numerous in

14 Sarajevo, we had observers, and these were the people who gave

15 information to us on the presence or non-presence of heavy weaponry

16 inside the town.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 1D1943, please, could we have that document now. There's a

19 translation there as well. Actually, I'm not sure that there is a

20 translation. It's possible, though. Yes.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Do you see, Witness, that under number D -- or, rather,

23 subparagraph D, it says:

24 "Howitzer battery, 122-millimetre D-30 with all personnel and

25 materiel disposed in the 2nd Motorised Brigade."

Page 4252

1 Do you know where the 2nd Motorised Brigade was?

2 A. I do not remember that.

3 Q. And do you see here that they do have a 122-millimetre Howitzer?

4 And here, under B, it says that they have 105-millimetre and also a

5 120-millimetre mortar battery. And I believe that you do know, on the

6 whole, who the commander of the corps was and that you're familiar with

7 the signature and everything else; right?

8 A. Yes, I do. But as far as I know, the 1st Corps was not just for

9 Sarajevo.

10 Q. Well, the 1st Corps was in Sarajevo, but it had two divisions.

11 Two were around Sarajevo and one was in Sarajevo; is that right?

12 A. When I was in Sarajevo, there were no divisions of the 1st Corps.

13 There were only brigades of the Bosnian Muslim corps.

14 Q. That is correct. However -- that is correct. However, 10 or 12

15 brigades were within the town, itself; right?

16 A. Those are not the figures I tend to remember. For me, there were

17 about eight brigades in town, if I remember correctly, but I might be

18 mistaken.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Can this document be admitted, because it shows that they did

21 have 122-millimetre Howitzers.

22 JUDGE KWON: Whether it shows or not, Ms. Edgerton, do you object

23 to this admission of this document?

24 MS. EDGERTON: Well, yes, for the same reasons as the documents

25 previously. The witness has had absolutely nothing to offer on this

Page 4253

1 document and, in fact, specifically denied some of the propositions put

2 to him by Dr. Karadzic.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But may I say something before you

4 rule? Can I say something before you make your decision?

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This document denies the witness's

7 denial. The witness may be denying something, but this document shows

8 that the denial is not correct. The witness, their witness, cannot be

9 aware of all of my documents, but can be aware of a particular

10 phenomenon. This document directly contradicts what it was that the

11 witness was claiming.

12 JUDGE KWON: You can tender that document through another witness

13 and challenge the credibility of this witness later on. We'll not admit

14 it.

15 Due to the meeting I have to attend at 3.30, officially, we

16 should stop at 3.30, although the courtroom would be available.

17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18 JUDGE KWON: So we better adjourn now for today.

19 And before we break, I have a question for Mr. Robinson, because

20 I understand that all matters relating to binding orders is under your

21 purview. What I'd like to know is whether you have any position about

22 the Bosnian government correspondence filed on the 18th of June.

23 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.

24 We would like to have you invite them to an oral hearing, as you

25 had for the other states, and we believe that there are a number of