Page 5177
1 Thursday, 15 July 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning to you all. Welcome back,
6 Mr. Robinson.
7 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you.
8 JUDGE KWON: I was informed that you had something to raise
9 before we begin today's business.
10 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, thank you very much.
11 It involves the time for the interview of General Abdel-Razek,
12 who is supposed to be testifying on Monday. And the UNDU has indicated
13 that they would not accommodate an interview over the weekend with him,
14 and they are proposing a Friday-evening interview, which means that
15 tomorrow Dr. Karadzic would be cross-examining or be involved in the
16 court from 9.00 to 3.00, and they would want the interview from 4.00
17 until 7.00. And we're simply not prepared for the interview,
18 unfortunately, under those circumstances, so we were going to ask if the
19 Chamber could possibly sit on Monday afternoon instead of the schedule of
20 9.00 to 3.00 so that we could conduct the interview Monday morning
21 between 9.00 and 12.00, in which time we could prepare for it over the
22 weekend. Given the pace of the trial, we think that it's really not
23 reasonable to require Dr. Karadzic to interview a witness on the Friday
24 evening when he's been cross-examining for the last two weeks.
25 Thank you.
Page 5178
1 JUDGE KWON: We are sitting 9.00 to 2.30 tomorrow. That's one
2 thing. And I will inquire with all the staff involved whether it would
3 be possible to sit from 1.30 to 7.00 on Monday, again three 90-minute
4 sessions.
5 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you very much.
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, you have --
7 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.
8 I don't have an objection, in principle, but I am not aware of
9 the particular circumstances of the witness. So now that this is on the
10 table, I will inquire of the relevant participants and see if we have any
11 useful -- any significant feedback for the Court in regard to this issue.
12 JUDGE KWON: Can we hear the responses from parties and the
13 Registry as to the feasibility of sitting from 1.30 to 7.00 by the end of
14 today's session.
15 Well, let's bring in the witness.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 WITNESS: MOMCILO MANDIC [Resumed]
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Mr. Mandic.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, let's continue your cross-examination.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Good morning to all.
24 Could I please have in e-court 65 ter 01588.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
Page 5179
1 Q. [Interpretation] Minister, this is going to be a very brief
2 survey of one of a series of documents dealing with a topic that we
3 touched upon yesterday.
4 Can you please have a look at this. It's the 19th of July. From
5 the level of the ministry, this is what's being done -- or, actually, why
6 don't you explain this to us. The conclusions of the minister of the
7 interior are being elaborated and sent further down. Could you explain?
8 A. This was sent from the ministry to all centres, and there were
9 five of them in Republika Srpska; namely, Banja Luka, Bijeljina, Doboj,
10 Sarajevo
11 the question of jurisdiction between the police and the Army of
12 Republika Srpska; also to deal with certain problems related to the
13 activity of paramilitary formations in the territory of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina or, rather, Republika Srpska.
15 Q. Could you please look at the second paragraph and the first
16 sentence under A.
17 A. "A. Problems related to the activities of some paramilitary
18 units, especially in cases where crimes have been committed or the public
19 peace and order violated to a large extent, the problems of joint command
20 and conflicts with authorities, positive or negative connotations in
21 psychological/propaganda terms, the possibility of confrontation and
22 other relevant information - as well as suggestions as to what measures
23 could be applied to resolve the problems."
24 Q. Thank you. So it says up here that it had been agreed that
25 security services would submit data. Could you just read the first
Page 5180
1 sentence of subparagraph B?
2 A. "Data and information regarding police involvement in those
3 combat actions when their involvement is necessary."
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Can we have the next page. I believe it's the next page in
6 English too.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Minister, since these are documents that are being sent to the
9 ground and sometimes can be rather imprecise, let us see what V says, and
10 then we'll see what G says in relation to civilians.
11 A. "V. Problems related to the prevention/detection of crimes and
12 perpetrators. The functioning of combined check-points; the seizure of
13 vehicles on the grounds that they have been acquired or registered
14 illegally; the defence of borders; professional activities, combat
15 support," et cetera.
16 Q. Can we have a look at G. What kinds of persons does it deal
17 with?
18 A. "Procedures and jurisdiction; the treatment and custody of
19 prisoners, persons evacuated from the combat operation zones; collection
20 camps into which the army brings Muslim residents without any documents
21 that might state reasons for such action, and then leave these undefined
22 camps to the organs of the interior."
23 What they're saying is the police.
24 Q. Isn't it clear here that if the military is carrying out a
25 particular action, and then they take the civilian population from the
Page 5181
1 combat area and put them up somewhere?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, actually, I can read this too:
4 "Work of the military judiciary --"
5 All of this can be read out, but finally it says that:
6 "The dead-line is the 25th of July, 1992."
7 Mr. Stanisic, minister of the interior, signed this; right?
8 A. If this document was written on the 19th of July and the
9 dead-line is the 25th, that is to say, there was a seven-day dead-line to
10 operate on the basis of these conclusions.
11 Q. Thank you. Minister, are you aware of a single case of a
12 different type of rounding up the civilian population, except for the
13 case with combat zones?
14 A. I'm not aware of any other case.
15 Q. Is this in line with the commander -- with the order of the
16 commander of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps that civilians should not be
17 sent to barracks, to him, but that the civilians should be sent
18 elsewhere?
19 A. That is in line with what Cedo Sladojevic, the chief of staff of
20 the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, concluded.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Can this document be admitted?
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D450.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 5182
1 Can we have 1D208. It is also 1D3012.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. In the previous document, we saw that there are some conflicts,
4 that there is an overlap in authority and in carrying out one's duties?
5 A. Yes, and disobedience at local level, vis-a-vis the central
6 authorities.
7 Q. Thank you. This document -- well, I don't know if we have a
8 translation. That is what it deals with, so this is what I'd like to ask
9 you -- no, no, this is not it. This is -- no, no, the previous document,
10 the previous one. Yes, that's fine in Serbian.
11 Can you tell us what this is?
12 A. This has to do with a clash between the military police and the
13 civilian police in Drvar.
14 Q. And it says here that around 9.30 p.m. --
15 A. Yes. Around 9.30 p.m.
16 2nd Corps, attacked the Public Security Station of Drvar. Probably it
17 had to do with some coffee bars and description of law and order. That
18 is what led to these clashes between the police and the military police;
19 that is to say, between the army and the military.
20 Q. Can you read out this paragraph: "On the occasion of this
21 attack ..."
22 A. "On the occasion of these attacks, members of the military police
23 threatened that they would have a show-down with the police; that they
24 would attack the Public Security Station; that they would mistreat the
25 police on different roads, and that Zoljas would be flying at the
Page 5183
1 station; that they would expel the police from Drvar; and that the police
2 had allegedly declared war on the military police."
3 Q. Is this a constant danger, that there can be no coexistence
4 between two armed formations in a single area without sparks flying?
5 A. Yes, this was a conflict between two armed forces, and that was a
6 major problem.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Can this document be marked for identification?
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, pending translation.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Can we have D95. This has already been admitted. It is also
13 1D206, but D95 certainly has a translation. Thank you.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Minister, this is my reaction to some of the things that were
16 happening again in the municipalities of Birac and Stari Herzegovina
17 These municipalities listed here, are they in that area?
18 A. Yes, Gorazde, Foca, Han Pijesak, Sokolac, Rogatica, Visegrad,
19 Rudo and Cajnice. That's the area of Old Herzegovina, Stari Herzegovina
20 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me what it is that I am ordering here?
21 A. You are ordering all these municipalities here that all the
22 villages in which the Croat and Muslim population surrender their
23 weapons, and state that they do not intend to fight against us, must
24 enjoy full protection from our Serb state of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The
25 presidents of municipalities will be held accountable for that.
Page 5184
1 Q. Minister, do you remember that General Mladic on several
2 occasions asked for their disarming and have them turn into civilians?
3 Unfortunately, there is a mistake in the translation here. Instead of
4 "disarm" it says "surrender." Do you make a distinction between the two,
5 yourself?
6 A. To disarm means to hand over weapons, whereas to surrender means
7 that someone will be arrested.
8 Q. Thank you. This document has been admitted, so we don't have to
9 admit it now. But we're dealing with that topic, how the civilian
10 population is being treated, even those who had been fighting and that
11 are supposed to give up fighting?
12 A. Yes.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Can we now have D92. That has also been admitted. It's an
15 Assembly session held on the 24th and 26th of July, 1992. Once we've
16 identified it, can we move on to 13 in Serbian and page 17 in English; in
17 the document itself, that is, 13th page in the document itself, and it's
18 actually page 14 in e-court. So one up in Serbian. Yes, and page 17 in
19 English.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. This is part of my speech. I'd like to draw the attention of the
22 participants to this paragraph in the middle that says:
23 "I must say that the Serb people ...," et cetera. I'll continue
24 in Serbian:
25 "I must say that the Serb people, whose Orthodox nature has kept
Page 5185
1 them far from being inhumane, have found a number of traitors among
2 themselves ..."
3 Can you explain what a traitor is? I don't know what the
4 translation was.
5 A. People who do not have the characteristics of their own people,
6 and in a negative context, at that.
7 Q. Thank you. "Traitor" is the word used here in the translation,
8 but the word "izrod" is even worse. It means does not even belong to
9 one's own people, one's own kin. It does not have the same
10 characteristics at all.
11 So, further on it says:
12 "... inhumane people who are committing inhumane acts, ones that
13 we shall try and punish by law."
14 Do you agree that that's what the first paragraph states or,
15 rather, this paragraph in the middle?
16 A. Yes, Mr. President.
17 Q. Further on, it says:
18 "From the most severe acts to the smallest, the most severe acts
19 are the rarest, while the smallest ones are the most frequent, statistics
20 show: robbery, unlawful acquiring of property, et cetera, all of that is
21 a consequence of a terrible war, the most horrible among civil wars. In
22 essence, it is not a civil war, because this is an inter-ethnic and
23 religious war. I can say that the Serbs have stayed so far away from the
24 property of others, especially property belonging to members of other
25 nations and ethnic groups. War has changed some people so much that
Page 5186
1 there are individuals among them who are very keen on other people's
2 property, both Muslim and Serb property. Here we have great political
3 problems. It is an immense blow to our soldiers' morale, which is
4 otherwise excellent, but in any case what hurts them are the robberies
5 and crimes being committed behind their backs while they are fighting."
6 Was that our position throughout that war of ours?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us about this other paragraph: "One of
9 the essential problems ...," et cetera? Since you were the minister of
10 justice, this is a topic you're familiar with.
11 A. You spoke with the problem of how the central authorities
12 functioned. They were in isolation, and the autonomous regions had power
13 in their own hands, and, in a way, they were alienated from the central
14 authorities.
15 Q. And then it says:
16 "We will all know immediately that ..."
17 Could you read it, actually?
18 A. Then you said:
19 "That people will then know that this is a proper Serb tendency
20 of insisting on autonomy, creating small princely states with small
21 princes in them."
22 Q. Can you finish that? Can you read it to the end?
23 A. "There is a private interest behind them, invariably, rather than
24 the interest of the people."
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 5187
1 Can we have page 15 in Serbian and page 19 in English.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. In the middle, where it says: "To the Presidency and the
4 government ...," and then it goes on to say: "At this stage --" let's
5 see: "At this stage --" let's see where it is in English. Just a
6 moment. Let me see if we have the correct page in English:
7 "At this stage," the bottom half, "Presidency and government --
8 at this stage, the priority," you can find this?
9 A. "At this stage, the priority is to introduce order in the state
10 mechanisms of power, that is, the state organs; reorganising the police
11 for peacetime; placing the remaining police force within the JNA; placing
12 all the special police, which are being misused by some, under the single
13 command of the republic MUP, not under the command of local lords."
14 Q. Yes, thank you. Is this the problem in self-managing socialism,
15 where the local -- the local authorities had too much power in relation
16 to the central authorities?
17 A. Yes.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Can we have the next page in Serbian, please, and in English
20 also. It's page 20 in English.
21 I must tell you that according to the law and international law,
22 everything enacted by various crisis staffs and war presidencies are
23 measures adopted in wartime conditions and are not legal in the way they
24 would be if enacted by the local -- by the government authorities.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
Page 5188
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's at the top of the page in
2 Serbian. Let's see it in English. Where is it in English: "I must
3 say --" it's around a third of the way down:
4 "I must say that, therefore, the Assembly recommends that what
5 the Presidency has decided, enacting as the Assembly, to set up the
6 legally-elected organs of authority, civilian authorities, which should
7 not function as the military authority's rival, but as their partner.
8 Most importantly, one must effectively eliminate para-state and also
9 paramilitary formations. The para-state ones at this stage are even more
10 dangerous, because they can make catastrophic decisions that nobody would
11 even recognise in peacetime, but only cause us great damage in the
12 meantime."
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. So the Presidency here is offering its decisions, which if
15 enacted on behalf of the Assembly, for the Assembly to adopt and confirm?
16 A. Yes.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that in the transcript,
18 it says that the Presidency is offering its decisions which it enacted on
19 behalf of the Assembly for the Assembly to confirm, because this is the
20 obligation of the Presidency to tender its decisions to the Assembly at
21 the first opportunity.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Is this the right interpretation, the one I have just given?
24 A. Verification or confirmation of your decisions was carried out.
25 Q. Can it be seen here that the state organs or the Presidency is
Page 5189
1 informing the Assembly that the para-state organs that have sprung up are
2 even more dangerous than the paramilitary units?
3 A. Here, you highlighted the problem of the paramilitary formations
4 and the crisis staffs which usurped power, so this was an armed force
5 which was not under the control of any state organs or the army, and the
6 local authorities which were not under the control of the Government of
7 Republika Srpska.
8 Q. Thank you. On the same page, it says that in Bosnia -- so
9 Karadzic is still speaking:
10 "In Bosnia-Herzegovina, no one -- because nobody in
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina --"
12 It's the beginning of the last third of the page, the bottom
13 third, and it's in the middle of the page in Serbian:
14 "... nobody in Bosnia-Herzegovina has legal organs of government,
15 apart from the Serbs, and to trace several paths to further entrench the
16 state and build its first, second, and third floors -- to further
17 entrench the state and build its first, second, and third floors, so we
18 could walk towards the roof of this state house ..."
19 And then it goes on to state lower down:
20 "The government organs must be energetic in implementing
21 everything that has been envisioned and that is of a formative character,
22 building up the state."
23 Was this the constant concern of the government organs?
24 A. Yes.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 17 to 18 in
Page 5190
1 Serbian, where Mr. Djeric is speaking. We already have the page in
2 English.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Djeric says:
5 "It is well known that the Government of the Serbian Republic
6 BiH began constituting itself and working in wartime conditions of the
7 most brutal kind."
8 The next page in English. Next page in English, please:
9 "The government started its work in a complete state of
10 isolation. It was cut off from all sources of communication, ranging
11 from available institutions, services, functions, information, means of
12 equipment, technology and staff."
13 Is this in accordance with what you know about the status of the
14 government and the conditions in which it worked?
15 A. Well, we spoke about this here.
16 Q. So although you had certain misunderstandings with Mr. Djeric,
17 you agree in what he says -- you agree with what he says here?
18 A. Yes.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 May we have page -- the next page in Serbian.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. The government, because of the war -- it's a third of the way
23 down the page.
24 A. [No interpretation]
25 Q. Can you read?
Page 5191
1 A. "Namely, at the very beginning of its work, the government was
2 involved in issuing regulations, setting up the system, and creating the
3 legal prerequisites for the organisation and work of the state organs,
4 business enterprises, social activities, and all the other preconditions
5 for the functioning of the new Serbian state."
6 Q. Yes. Can you go on to where it says: "Namely, fighting and
7 other factors ..." Let's see where it is in English.
8 A. "Namely, fighting and other factors have kept the government
9 fully isolated from municipalities for a long period of time."
10 Q. Thank you. I think that Mr. Djeric goes on to discuss this
11 further. Milanovic also speaks about this, so throughout this transcript
12 we can see this. This has already been admitted into evidence.
13 So this is the second half of July, and we are still having
14 problems of the same nature as in April; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 191.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. In some parts of the indictment, it has been suggested that the
19 SDS
20 implementing its criminal intent more easily, and the whole indictment
21 hangs on the alleged intent to remove Croats and Muslims from the
22 territories claimed by the Serbs.
23 Are these minutes from a government session held on the 29th of
24 July, 1992?
25 A. I see the "1st of August" in the English version.
Page 5192
1 Q. In the subtitle?
2 A. Yes. The minutes were drawn up on the 1st of August, but the
3 session was held on the 29th of July, yes.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next two pages,
5 AD-1, both in English and Serbian.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Would you say, Minister, that the government tried to centralise
8 the government administration in order to carry out what is mentioned in
9 the indictment, or did it do so in order to prevent what was mentioned in
10 the indictment?
11 A. Well, the government tried to centralise power because on the
12 ground there were certain breaches of the law, serious ones, especially
13 in relation to the non-Serb population. So we saw that at the proposal
14 of the government, the crisis staffs were abolished. After that, the
15 autonomous regions were disbanded. And these local warlords that you
16 mentioned at this session tried to become part of the rule of law, and
17 they could no longer have their own small armies and administrations on
18 the ground. So the counts in the indictment or the statements in the
19 indictment, saying that the government tried to centralise power for --
20 there were a million people living on the territory.
21 Q. One and a half million.
22 Can we have the next page in English.
23 And please read point 2, where it says "AD-1."
24 A. "The government has reviewed its obligations stemming from the
25 conclusions and standpoints of the Assembly of the Serbian Republic
Page 5193
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina."
2 What did you say?
3 Q. I said point 2 under AD-1.
4 A. "The government has looked at the steps that are necessary to
5 introduce central authority in the republic."
6 Q. And the discussion? You can read it all.
7 A. "To that end, it has been concluded there should be an immediate
8 public debate on the proposal decree on modes of carrying out the work of
9 ministries or republican organisations outside their headquarters."
10 Q. And go on. What would be agreed?
11 A. "The meetings would focus on district organisation and also to
12 shut down any legal para-state and other organs."
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page. The
14 next page in Serbian, please.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Is there a schedule here on attending meetings in the districts,
17 and who should go where, so that they can explain in these districts what
18 a state actually is and how government should function; is that right?
19 A. Yes. As someone from Herzegovina
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. And please tell us where it says: "Discussion was held ..."
23 A. "Debate was held on how to improve the government in present
24 conditions with inadequate road, telephone, and other links in the
25 field."
Page 5194
1 The Serbian page is gone.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can you please bring back the
3 Serbian page.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "A debate was also held, how to
5 make the work of the government more efficient under present conditions
6 with inadequate road, telephone, and other links with the field. It was
7 concluded that larger centres should form units of certain ministries,
8 acting as their forward services, to implement adopted laws and policies,
9 and propose new laws or amendments to existing laws on the basis of their
10 experience."
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Q. Now, let's round this off. Do you agree, and we've already
13 mentioned that, that in the 1990s people came to power who had never been
14 in power before and who, for 45 years, had been considered as the
15 opposition and people who are not able to participate in government?
16 A. As far as I know, there was a one-party system, and people came
17 to power who had never participated in government before or held any kind
18 of position of power, who had not been members of the Socialist Party,
19 and that was the only party for 50 years in the former Yugoslavia. And
20 these were the first democratic multi-party elections in Bosnia
21 Herzegovina
22 Q. Thank you. On the basis of your experience from the
23 administration, were these two factors -- or three factors: namely,
24 people in government without experience and knowledge; the war; and the
25 breakdown in communications? Did that make chaos apparent, chaos that
Page 5195
1 could not be controlled in any way?
2 A. Could you please explain what you mean? Until the beginning of
3 the war, or after the war started, the first months of the war?
4 Q. The first year of the war.
5 A. Well, in my opinion, no one thought that there would be a war.
6 Once the war started, there were conflicts everywhere, in every part of
7 the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So at one point in time, there were
8 armed conflicts throughout, from Una and Sava to Neretva, Trebisnjica,
9 and all the way up there to Mrkonic Grad and Bihac. There was general
10 chaos and commotion. All roads and communications were interrupted, and
11 I think that both the people and the government lost their heads at that
12 point.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have AD-21 now in Serbian
14 and in English. One more paragraph, please. AD-21. In the Serbian
15 version, it's page 8 -- or 9, rather, in e-court. In English -- yes, we
16 have it in English too.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. AD-21, can you tell us what this is all about?
19 A. "The government reviewed the current political and security
20 situation in Foca and Bratunac. It was assessed that the situation in
21 these municipalities was extremely complicated, and it was stated that
22 necessary steps should be taken in order to prevent conflict and protect
23 the population."
24 Q. The second paragraph?
25 A. "In that connection, the government believes that the possibility
Page 5196
1 of imposing martial law should be looked at, in other municipalities as
2 well, in order to bring order and avoid conflicts that could have broader
3 negative consequences."
4 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that Serbs and Muslims lived there at
5 this point in time, that they are in direct contact, that conflicts may
6 even escalate?
7 A. From what I know, both Foca and Bratunac were multi-ethnic towns,
8 with equal shares of Serb and non-Serb population.
9 Q. And at this time, end July 1992, both communities were living
10 there together, they had already been fighting in conflicts, and the
11 government had already taken some steps to prevent further conflict?
12 A. Can you rephrase, please?
13 Q. To be more precise, is this the first time that the possibility
14 of imposing martial law is being mentioned at a government session in
15 order to prevent conflict, or is it for some other reason?
16 A. The proposal before the government is to impose martial law to
17 prevent conflict.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Can this document be admitted?
20 JUDGE KWON: Was it not already admitted? Yes, we'll admit it.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D452, Your Honours.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 193, please.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. This is the minutes of the 45th session. The one before was the
25 43rd session?
Page 5197
1 A. Yes. That was the 7th of August.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see AD-8 in both languages.
3 [In English] Reference 8.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. I see in 3 that it deals with the operation of the power supply
6 system. The transmission network is damaged. On page 3, it says the
7 electrical company is tasked to let the other side know that the Serbian
8 side would also use the power supply system for purposes of war, as they
9 had been doing, if they continued to damage installations.
10 Now, AD-8, can you tell us what the conclusion is in AD-8?
11 A. "The government considered the problems in the republic regarding
12 the enactment of administrative regulations by various municipal and
13 republic organs, which are not in conformity with the law.
14 "In this regard, the government has decided that all ministries
15 inspect all the enactments that had been passed during the war in order
16 to remove any irregularities within an agreed time-frame ..."
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see number 11.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Could you give us an explanation for that?
20 A. "The government decided that Vice-Prime Minister Milan Trbojevic
21 and Minister of Justice Momcilo Mandic should assist in providing
22 qualified staff for military judiciary organs."
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can this document be
24 admitted?
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
Page 5198
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D453, Your Honours.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 1D227, please. It's 65 ter 17664. The 65 ter has a translation.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Minister, we mentioned that the central authorities were not able
6 to replace presidents of municipalities, but they did try to address the
7 mistakes the latter had made mainly out of ignorance, and they sometimes
8 abolished their decisions.
9 We don't have the right document. It's 65 ter 17664.
10 Do you remember that in the early days, there was a good
11 president of municipality in Bijeljina, one Mr. Jokovic, and his error
12 lay in his inclination towards paramilitary units, and I had to go to
13 Bijeljina to ask him to resign, and Mladic demoted Mauzer, turning him
14 into a simple private soldier, whereas he had been a major before?
15 Now we need, actually, 1D227. This is not the right document.
16 Do you remember that this was the first time a president of
17 municipality was successfully persuaded to resign, and Mladic demoted
18 Mauzer to a private?
19 A. I don't remember these activities of yours, and I don't remember
20 what Mladic had done, but I know that this president of municipality,
21 Jokovic, had turned over military barracks to paramilitaries, and that
22 was the problem in Bijeljina.
23 Q. Right, and that's the reason why we forced him to resign, and
24 Mauzer was turned into a simple soldier.
25 Now, tell us about this telegram from the Presidency of the
Page 5199
1 Serbian Republic BH? In fact, it was already Republika Srpska, but we
2 didn't have the stamps yet.
3 A. Based on your constitutional authority, you reversed the decision
4 of the municipality of Bijeljina
5 Q. Point 2?
6 A. You ordered the civilian authorities to investigate the personal
7 responsibility of the officials for passing illegal decisions during the
8 war.
9 Q. And to report back; right?
10 A. Yes, to report on what they had done.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I tender this document?
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Do you remember it was the constant complaint of the army that
14 civilian authorities were interfering with command and control, and do
15 you agree that it was a vestige of the former system of national defence
16 and social self-protection, wherein the president of municipality was
17 also commander of the Territorial Defence?
18 A. I don't know what these were vestiges of, but I know that
19 according to the Law on Territorial Defence under the Communist system,
20 the president of the municipality was commander of the
21 Territorial Defence. And these problems that the army had with municipal
22 authorities are something I know nothing about.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get 65 ter 4214.
24 Can this document be admitted, the previous one, the telegram?
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
Page 5200
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D454, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE KWON: One matter, Mr. Mandic.
3 Do you, by any chance, know whether Territorial Defence still
4 existed after the establishment of the VRS?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the best of my knowledge, as of
6 the 12 May 1992
7 was established then, and Ratko Mladic was named commander of the VRS.
8 That was at the session of the Assembly in Banja Luka. From that time
9 on, there was only the regular Army of Republika Srpska, from what I
10 know.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now we need 65 ter 4214.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. While we're waiting, let me ask you: Do you remember that these
15 municipal territorial units were only placed on the 19th or 20th May
16 under the command of the army, but they continued to be called by their
17 municipal names and they continued to rely logistically on
18 municipalities?
19 A. From what I know about the Law of the Army, they had to be made
20 part of the regular army. But who financed them and whether it was the
21 municipal authorities, I don't know, because the central authorities did
22 not have the budget. So it must have stayed within the budget of the
23 municipalities, as far as finance and supplies were concerned, but they
24 had to be -- become part of the regular Army of Republika Srpska,
25 according to the Law on the Army.
Page 5201
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 1D212 for a moment, and
2 then we'll come back to this list.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Do you remember our explanation why logistics should not be
5 centralised? The reason was that municipalities would be more inclined
6 to provide for their own children than to some unit they didn't know?
7 A. Well, first of all, the government did not have the budget to
8 finance that, and the municipalities that were under Serbian control,
9 which were under Serbian control even before the war, had their own funds
10 and budgets to feed the army, and, finally, also the police and the
11 municipal administration. I believe that was the main reason why
12 financing was left up to the municipalities, because up at Pale, we had
13 nothing until the government was properly set up, until cash-flow started
14 to run, until the establishment of everything that makes a state.
15 Q. Look at this letter from Major Stankovic from the unit in Doboj.
16 Read the title and the first sentence, please.
17 A. The date is 27 July 1992
18 Attitude and Conduct of Individual Political Structures and Mandarins of
19 Individual Socio-Political Communities Regarding the Establishment of
20 Military Police Battalions":
21 "In keeping with the order of the superior command, we have taken
22 steps to establish and organise a united military police in the entire
23 territory of Operations Group Doboj."
24 Q. Thank you. We'll have this translated. Could you read the
25 paragraph that begins with "Objective"?
Page 5202
1 A. "The objective of this organisation, in the spirit of your order,
2 is to do away with all local and private military police units which are
3 not accountable to anyone."
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?
5 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. A witness here said that it took two years to establish. Do you
9 agree that the army could not be set up and become operational on the
10 19th of May suddenly; it took time to place everything under a single
11 command? Does this document testify to that?
12 A. The formal conditions for establishing the army were created by
13 19th of May. However, after that time it took a while to pass the bylaws
14 and implement these regulations on the ground. Now, how much time and
15 how it was done concerning the army, I don't know.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now come back to 65 ter
17 4214, the one we had before.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. This is the cover page for the verbatim record of the 20th
20 session of the Assembly of Republika Srpska held in Bijeljina on 14 and
21 15 September; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get page 9 in the text;
24 English page 10. Page 9 in Serbian. I think it's page 9 in the
25 document. Page number 9, the pagination of the document itself.
Page 5203
1 The only thing here is that the prime minister and several
2 ministers attended consultations, and at each of these consultations the
3 demand -- sorry, the complaint was made that the authorities, the
4 government, are not functioning properly.
5 We need pages 15 and 16 in English, and page 15 in Serbian. In
6 English, it must be towards the bottom.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Could you please find the passage where it says:
9 "We should be happy there were no executions by firing squad."
10 In English, it reads:
11 "I must say that very often some municipal officials ..."
12 A. I've found it in Serbian.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In English, we should look towards
14 the bottom of the page, and maybe it straddles page 16.
15 JUDGE KWON: It's in the upper part.
16 MR. TIEGER: Yes.
17 JUDGE KWON: "I must say at the level of lower-ranking
18 officials, clerks on the border."
19 Do you mean that part:
20 "There are many unpleasant surprises"?
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Could you read the passage where it says: "I have to say ..."?
23 A. Do you mean:
24 "In fact, we have to be happy that there have been no executions
25 so far"?
Page 5204
1 Q. Two sentences before that.
2 A. "I have to say that very often some municipal officials have
3 acted unlawfully, in ways that even deserved arrest and punishment."
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is this the right page in English,
5 or maybe we need page 15. Your Honours, have you found it?
6 [In English] "I must say ..."
7 [Interpretation] It's halfway down the page, and we need the same
8 page in Serbian back.
9 [In English] "I must say it often happened that some municipal
10 officials ..."
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Can you go on, Minister?
13 A. " ... acted unlawfully, in ways that deserved arrest and
14 punishment. This is something we have to emphasise at this Assembly
15 session and perhaps even sanction, and find a way for the Presidency to
16 take a stand in such cases between two sessions of the Assembly. Namely,
17 we should consider ourselves lucky that there have been no executions so
18 far. But in future, there will be arrests and punishment. This Assembly
19 is the legislative body whose duty it is to protect the law; will have to
20 take note of this and give us authorisation. Even if we do not declare a
21 state of war, we will have to straighten things out in certain
22 municipalities of vital importance to use vigorous measures."
23 Q. This was on the 14th and 15th September. The president of the
24 Presidency is asking that the Presidency be given powers to take vigorous
25 action vis-a-vis local authorities?
Page 5205
1 A. When you say there have been no executions, you mean to say that
2 you didn't punish local Serbs. And you refer to the state of war, and
3 you say that even without declaring a state of war, you need these powers
4 in order to punish perpetrators of serious crimes in the territory of
5 Republika Srpska.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see page 18 in Serbian,
7 and English also 18, top of the page. "How to ensure ...," the very
8 beginning. It's the very beginning in English, and over here it says --
9 actually, we'll have to find this for you.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. I would like to ask you to have a look at line 4, Minister. Just
12 have a look at that, and then we'll move further down.
13 A. Page 18?
14 Q. Page 18, line 4:
15 "I would like to ask General Mladic to present our military
16 situation," et cetera."
17 And then I said --
18 A. "I would like to ask you not to repeat anything in this
19 discussion. Let's move on directly to this objective, how to ensure the
20 functioning of the authorities, how to make sure that profiteers and
21 hoodlums do not undermine the authority of the authorities. Believe me,
22 we found chaos in places where there were no authorities."
23 Q. Further down: "Authority ...," et cetera.
24 A. "The authority of the authorities has hit rock bottom, but that
25 happens all the time."
Page 5206
1 Q. But we have some reports. Can you find that part:
2 "Such strategically important places, like the Drina
3 authorities of the central government, these guys in Bratunac ..."
4 Have you found that? It's somewhere around the middle: "We have
5 reports ..."
6 A. Yes, yes:
7 "These guys in Bratunac are very honest but they have no
8 authority, they are not in power. When you translate 'authority,' it
9 means the authorities or government. The authorities must have
10 authority, and there can be no compromise. We must put our foot down and
11 tell them to fuck off, use the police, and if you can't use your own
12 police, call us and we'll send a special unit which will make arrests and
13 restore order."
14 Q. Further on?
15 A. "There is not a single municipal president who is able to do this
16 unless he respects himself and unless we all contribute to him being
17 respected."
18 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that Brano Grujic testified in
19 Belgrade
20 once they came to see me and they told me what the situation was
21 concerning the Yellow Wasps, and then I asked Stanisic and Karisik
22 [as interpreted] to send a special unit to arrest them because the local
23 forces could not arrest them, as stated here in this paragraph? Was that
24 the model that we applied?
25 A. Yes.
Page 5207
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we now have
2 page 49 in Serbian and page 47 in English. 49 in Serbian, 47 in English.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Not to be narcissistic, this is Mirko Mijatovic talking, not me.
5 Do you know who Mirko Mijatovic is?
6 A. I think he's an MP from Serbia
7 Q. Thank you. Can you look at this portion, where he says -- yes,
8 it's the second paragraph. In English, it's also the second paragraph.
9 A. "I would just like to say something very briefly about the
10 functioning of the civilian authorities, where I think the problem lies
11 in many municipalities. The government has, indeed, passed regulations,
12 but we do not have developed mechanisms to implement them. I think that
13 something constructive has to be done in order for that to happen. I
14 have heard criticism of the commissioners. I am a commissioner of the
15 Presidency for a large number of municipalities, and I don't know whether
16 I have been of any use or not. But I can tell you of the following
17 experience: that not a single representative of the government ever
18 visited those areas. I'm not criticising anyone. I personally trust the
19 president and many members of the government, but this contact has to be
20 established with government representatives, at least between people
21 working in the government and those who are on the ground."
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Can we now have Serbian page 56 and English page 53.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Again, it's my own words. I can only be myself. Line 10 from
Page 5208
1 the bottom in English. In Serbian, let's see:
2 "Tonight we have to clarify certain matters here."
3 A. Tell me roughly where it is.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. In English, it says: "We are responsible ..."
6 Now we're going to find it --
7 A. "If necessary," you mean?
8 Q. "Tonight, we have to be given that kind of authority ..." Yes,
9 two or three lines. In English, it's line 10 from the bottom.
10 A. "We have to clear this thing up tonight. We must be given -- we
11 must be given the authority to be able to replace and arrest, begging
12 your pardon, a stupid municipal president. We are still faced with
13 self-management, but still have the problem of self-management. This
14 person cannot do this, the other person cannot do that. Self-management
15 was designed to prove to you that something cannot be done and to prevent
16 you from doing anything."
17 Q. Thank you. Do I not ask, later on during this session, that the
18 Presidency be assisted by being given greater authority in order to make
19 arrests, and the legislation that is in place is a remnant of
20 self-management?
21 A. When the President of this honourable Trial Chamber asked me
22 about this, I explained how a municipality president can be dismissed and
23 that it did not depend upon the wishes of the government and the
24 Presidency. It is the local parliamentarians, local MPs, who appoint
25 such a person. He is responsible to them, and that's it.
Page 5209
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Serbian page 73; English, 69.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. It is mid-September, and there is this fight going on in the
4 Assembly for establishing effective government; right?
5 A. I think that things culminated at that point in time, that is to
6 say, the struggle between the local and the central authorities, and that
7 this led to major problems.
8 Q. Thank you. Can we have a look at this. Jovo Mijatovic is
9 speaking, and he says: "We ...," et cetera. Can you find that? I'll
10 look it up in English, and you can look it up in Serbian. Zvornik is
11 being referred to, and that will be the easiest way of finding the
12 section that I've looking for:
13 "At one point in time in the municipality of Zvornik
14 In English, can you find the word "Zvornik"?
15 A. "At one point, and I said this in Zvornik municipality several
16 times, we were at a point where we practically had a municipal army,
17 municipal police, and municipal administration, a state within a state."
18 Q. Next sentence too, please.
19 A. "I hear that this is also the case at regional level in
20 Eastern Herzegovina
21 all levels."
22 Q. Thank you. This assessment, made by Mr. Mijatovic, this is
23 Jovo Mijatovic from Zvornik, does that correspond to what you knew at the
24 time?
25 A. Yes.
Page 5210
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Serbian page 73; English, 69. Well, the English one can just
3 stay there, because we are actually dealing with Professor Koljevic's
4 remarks.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. When you testified in the Stanisic case, did you confirm that you
7 did not know this man who was speaking, but that he was saying the same
8 things that you knew about? Did you know this Mijatovic person?
9 A. No, I did not.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. "Professor Koljevic,"
11 can we find this in Serbian, line four or five of his remarks. In
12 English, it says: "On behalf ..."
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. I'm surprised that you don't know Mr. Mijatovic, because the
15 Prosecution mentions him and says that you and I were involved in this
16 joint criminal enterprise together with him. But let's leave that aside
17 now.
18 Minister: "Yesterday we did ...," or did not -- no, no, just a
19 moment: "Yesterday, we ..."
20 A. "Yesterday, we had a difficult day. We had to face our biggest
21 mistakes and weaknesses, the truth of what things were like on the ground
22 rather than what we would like them to be, and on television and at this
23 Assembly, we have to present things. We are at the initial stage of
24 these discussions. I would like to appeal to your honesty and openness."
25 Q. "Political"?
Page 5211
1 A. "Political," yes:
2 "... the most political matter at this time, the centralisation
3 of government and command for general well-being."
4 Q. How about this sentence: "Because ..."?
5 A. "Because local strongmen are a major problem for us. That is the
6 main problem why the authorities are not functioning properly, why
7 government is not functioning properly."
8 Q. Thank you. Is that in line with what you knew?
9 A. Yes.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Can we have Serbian page 88 and English page 93.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Now, these are your own words, page 93 and 88. You were still
14 minister in mid-September; right?
15 A. Yes. I have "Professor Zukovic" on my screen.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's 88 in the text, itself, and
17 it's 91 in English. Serbian, 88; 91 in English. It says
18 "Momcilo Mandic." That's what's written there.
19 Can we have -- this is some kind of new numbering of pages. Can
20 we have English 91 and then 88, "Mandic." It should be Mandic's remarks.
21 No, it's not this one either, no. Can we find Mandic's remarks, please?
22 JUDGE KWON: From what I hear from the Court Deputy, it's time to
23 take a break. And after the break, we'll see Mr. Mandic's statement at
24 the time.
25 We'll resume at 11.00.
Page 5212
1 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
3 JUDGE KWON: Before we begin: Mr. Karadzic, you stated, during
4 your question to Mr. Mandic, that Mr. Mandic was listed as one of the
5 participants in the joint criminal enterprise. Over the break, I tried
6 to read through the indictment, as well as the pre-trial brief, but I
7 couldn't find Mr. Mandic's name. Could you clarify that statement?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. In some --
9 JUDGE KWON: That's not important. We can come back later on.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but in any case, Mr. Mandic's
11 name was probably dropped from the indictment when he was acquitted in
12 Bosnia
13 indictment.
14 JUDGE KWON: But I would like you to be more cautious when
15 referring to specific names as members of the joint criminal enterprise.
16 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
17 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
18 At paragraph 11 of the indictment, it says that:
19 "Radovan Karadzic acted in concert with other members of this
20 criminal enterprise, including ..."
21 And then the name of Momcilo Mandic is there.
22 JUDGE KWON: My apologies. Thank you.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that here or somewhere
24 else, Zuca is also mentioned, and we arrested Zuca at the request of the
25 municipal authorities, and a special unit was sent for that purpose from
Page 5213
1 Pale.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this document be admitted into
4 evidence, as well as the session of the 14th and 15th of September. I
5 will desist from this part. But if this entire session has not been
6 admitted, I believe that all the documents will be admitted.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it will be admitted.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D456, Your Honours.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 May we now have 65 ter 201.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Minister, we are still in September, and this is a session of
13 the government. It doesn't say who attended it, but I'm sure you'll be
14 familiar with item 1, AD-1.
15 Can you describe to us what was discussed at this session?
16 A. This is a session of the Government of Republika Srpska of the
17 21st of September, 1992, where current issues of state and national
18 interest were discussed, starting from the current situation and
19 relations in the republic and further afield. Activities and measures to
20 be undertaken were pointed out. Special attention was paid to
21 consideration of the issue of the organisation and functioning of the
22 state organs in the republic, the state of the economy and its revival,
23 as well as organising the banking system in the republic and making it
24 functional.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have the next page, please,
Page 5214
1 in Serbian.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. And look at item 1, please.
4 A. Item 1?
5 Q. You can read this to the end.
6 A. "Within this framework, special attention was paid to the
7 situation and the measures and activities to be undertaken in the Bosnian
8 Krajina.
9 "After an extensive and comprehensive discussion, the government
10 adopted the following conclusions:
11 "1. The government shall energetically exercise its
12 constitutional and legal functions, using all means of a law-governed
13 state, in organising and exercising power in the republic. The
14 government shall, where it is deemed necessary, propose to the Serb
15 Republic Presidency the introduction of martial administration in certain
16 areas of the republic, including companies, organisations, and
17 institutions."
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. May we now look at
19 conclusion 12 in both versions. In the Serbian version, it's on the next
20 page, and in English, it's also on the next page.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Can you tell us about conclusion 12?
23 A. "It was concluded that the Ministry of the Interior and the
24 Ministry of Defence, in co-operation with the Main Staff of the Army of
25 Republika Srpska, shall prepare and adopt regulations and unify their
Page 5215
1 implementation in order to protect the property of persons outside the
2 Republika Srpska."
3 Q. And 13. It refers to your ministry.
4 A. I'm waiting for the page.
5 Q. The next page in Serbian, please. Only 13.
6 A. 13:
7 "The Ministry of Justice and Administration is tasked with
8 immediately preparing regulations on political organisation in the
9 republic."
10 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Minister, that at the proposal of the prime
11 minister, I suspended the work of the Serbian Democratic Party?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you remember that other parties took advantage of this and
14 began to organise themselves and became active in the areas left or
15 abandoned by the Serbian Democratic Party?
16 A. I'm not aware of that.
17 Q. Does point 13 refer to the fact that the Ministry of Justice
18 should organise political life, that is, how parties can organise
19 themselves and be registered?
20 A. Yes.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this document be admitted into
22 evidence?
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Minister, let me ask you the following: If the purpose of
25 government in Republika Srpska was to commit crimes, to expel Muslims and
Page 5216
1 Croats, if that were the case, would not the government be happy that
2 there was chaos on the ground, instead of trying to establish order?
3 A. I repeat that the government did not insist on chaos and
4 lawlessness, but, on the contrary, when the Serbian state was
5 established, there was already chaos on the ground, and the government
6 was trying to deal with this situation and introduce the rule of law.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 May this document be admitted into evidence?
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D457, Your Honours.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have in e-court 1D234.
12 1D234.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. And while we are waiting for it: In the previous document of the
15 21st of September, the government was considering the possibility of
16 proposing to the president of the republic, that is, the Presidency, the
17 introduction of martial law?
18 A. Yes, or martial administration.
19 Q. Yes, in some places. Well, here, the minister of defence, at
20 that time Colonel Subotic, was sending to the president of the republic
21 something. So can you please tell us about this document? And here it
22 says:
23 "... and because of the serious threats, the whole system, and
24 because of the danger of disintegration of the system, I propose ..."
25 Can you tell us what it goes on to say, if you can see it?
Page 5217
1 A. No, I can't see it to read this. It's all faded, it's very pale.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May the original be given to the
3 witness.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. And can you read points 1 and 3, since these are the ones that
6 have been translated?
7 A. The Ministry of Defence is addressing the president of
8 Republika Srpska:
9 "The introduction of martial law on parts of the territory of
10 Republika Srpska":
11 "1. Having in mind that in some parts of Republika Srpska, the
12 political and security situation has escalated because of the activities
13 of paramilitary units and para-state organs and institutions, and that
14 the legal state organs and other authorities are not carrying out their
15 work in line with the Constitution and legislation, and with a view to
16 defence, and because of noncompliance with the decisions of the
17 government and other organs, I propose the introduction of martial law in
18 the following municipalities: Bijeljina, Centar Sarajevo, Ilidza,
19 Ilijas, Hadzici, Novo Sarajevo, Stari Grad Sarajevo, Sokolac, Pale,
20 Rajlovac, Vogosca and Zvornik.
21 "3. Military administration," or, rather, "martial law in the
22 municipalities from item 1 will be imposed until the reasons for the
23 introduction of martial law are removed.
24 "Minister Colonel Bogdan Subotic."
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 5218
1 May this document be admitted?
2 JUDGE KWON: Shall we mark it for identification, Mr. Tieger,
3 pending the full translation of it?
4 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, that's fine.
5 JUDGE KWON: We'll do so.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI D458.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Q. Minister, this was on the 20th of October, was it not?
9 A. The 20th of October, 1992.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Can we now have 1D232. I believe that we do not have a
12 translation, but we will present the document with a few paragraphs.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. This was on the 10th of October. Before the minister of defence
15 proposed this to me, the minister prepared mandatory instructions on the
16 tasks of the organs of military administration, republic state organs and
17 other subjects. Have I read this out correctly?
18 A. Yes.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The date is the 10th of October,
20 and this was compiled at Pale.
21 May we have page 10. The next number 2. This is the last page.
22 I would like to see page 2 of the document.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger, we have translations; not in
24 e-court, but in hard copies. Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 5219
1 May we have page 2 in Serbian. Page 1 in English.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Minister -- could you put page 1 on the ELMO and then page 2 so
4 that everyone can see what this document is. Thank you. Yes, we have
5 it.
6 Can you tell us about the part that's been marked in red?
7 A. On page 1?
8 Q. On the page you see now.
9 A. Very well:
10 "1. The organs of military administration, in co-operation with
11 the republican state organs, shall carry out administrative,
12 professional, and other jobs according to the Constitution, laws and
13 regulations based on the law. Legislative, administrative and other
14 organs of administration are to be transferred fully to the military
15 administration."
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we have the next
17 page, please; in English as well, probably. [No interpretation]
18 [In English] The lower part. Point 1 -- 1.2. 1.1 is "Defence,"
19 and 1.2, it seems to me that it is not translated.
20 [Interpretation] That page is missing.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Can you tell us what they are doing in the Ministry of the
23 Interior. Just tell us, briefly, what happens in case of military
24 administration with internal affairs.
25 A. They take over the entire -- all the competencies of the police,
Page 5220
1 from investigating the most serious crimes to traffic control. They take
2 over police affairs in full.
3 Q. And the last line: "Repressive measures ..."
4 A. "Taking repressive measures against groups and individuals who
5 make it impossible to carry out law enforcement or disrupt the political,
6 economic, and legal system. And, as required, imposing curfew and
7 restricting movement."
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please. In English,
9 it's 3. 1.3: "The judiciary and administration."
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Ensuring completely functional --"
11 THE ACCUSED: It is wrongly translated. 1.3 looks like "Sphere
12 of Defence and Administration," but it should be "The Sphere of Judiciary
13 and State Administration."
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Can you now tell us what happens in this area, your field of
16 work, under military administration?
17 A. Our competencies, not only in terms of military judiciary, but
18 also civilian judiciary, are transferred.
19 Q. And the point is to maximise efficiency?
20 A. All administrative functions of the state are taken over by the
21 military administration.
22 Q. And number 3?
23 A. "Priority dealing with reports for misdemeanor and criminal
24 proceedings by the military administration and republic state agencies
25 through summary procedures ..."
Page 5221
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot see where the witness is
2 reading from.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Could you repeat the last item?
5 A. "Gradually enabling and putting into operation regular organs of
6 state administration, executive and parliamentary bodies, in co-operation
7 with the competent republic organs."
8 Q. Let's move on to 1.9. [In English] 1.9.
9 [Interpretation] This deals with town planning, housing, and
10 utilities, construction, surveyor and property-related legal affairs.
11 Read the highlighted part, please.
12 A. "Eviction from illegally-squatted apartments and residential
13 buildings, recording damage inflicted on housing and other buildings,"
14 et cetera.
15 Q. How about property rights?
16 A. "Ensuring property rights, in keeping with the current
17 legislation ..."
18 Q. And the rest of that sentence?
19 A. I can't see it on the screen.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the Serbian be scrolled down.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Ensuring property rights, in
22 keeping with the current legislation, and temporary ban on sale of real
23 estate."
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. To whom does this eviction provision apply?
Page 5222
1 A. Probably the Serbs, who moved unlawfully into vacant, abandoned
2 houses and apartments.
3 Q. And this last provision: "Ensuring property rights ..."
4 A. That applies to non-Serbs in the territory of Republika Srpska
5 Q. Their property rights should be enforced and guaranteed; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you remember that the government had already imposed a ban on
8 sales of real estate during the war so that no one should profit from
9 these circumstances in buying property from Croats and Muslims?
10 A. I remember that decree, with the force of law, was passed banning
11 exchanges and sales of real estate until the war ends.
12 Q. But under those circumstances, the Serbs had lost -- the Serbs in
13 Croatia
14 that they acquired in exchanges in Republika Srpska?
15 A. I know about such cases in Banja Luka.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 1.14, please,
17 "Refugees and humanitarian aid."
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Refugees and humanitarian aid":
19 "Updating records and dealing with the status-related issues of
20 refugees; providing for refugees in a more lasting way; establishing
21 checks and controls to prevent any abuses of aid to refugees and
22 humanitarian aid."
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Next page?
25 A. "Providing proper conditions for the return of refugees currently
Page 5223
1 in other areas in the republic or outside the republic."
2 Q. And ...?
3 A. "Full co-operation with agencies in charge of refugees."
4 Q. And this was signed ...?
5 A. By Bogdan Subotic, the minister.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this document be admitted?
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, do you like it to be marked for
8 identification, given that some pages are missing in the translation?
9 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, I think that's the appropriate
10 approach under these circumstances.
11 JUDGE KWON: We'll do so.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI D459.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Can we now get 1D233, to cast a brief glance at this document
15 about the tasks of military administration; the same date, the same
16 ministry.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Can you read the first page so the parties can be informed? And
19 the Prosecution probably has a translation as well.
20 A. The Ministry of Defence passed this document. It's the Rules of
21 Organisation and Mission
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the page -- the bottom
23 of the page to see the date. I believe it's the same date as the last
24 document.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 10 October 1992.
Page 5224
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 2, please.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Could you interpret for us paragraph 2? So these are the rules
4 binding the parties to take certain action?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And Roman numeral I are general provisions?
7 A. In Article 2, the defence minister defines military
8 administration, and he says that it implies taking over entire authority
9 and powers.
10 Q. It says:
11 "... under the circumstances involving massive armed activities,
12 unlawful conduct, and for other objective reasons where the
13 constitutional and legal order has been disrupted"?
14 A. Yes, it's the definition of military administration.
15 THE ACCUSED: I would like you to give us next number 4.
16 [Interpretation] Can we have Serbian page 2. Article 4, please.
17 JUDGE KWON: Next page in B/C/S.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Article 4?
20 A. "The Supreme Command, as the highest body in the system of
21 military administration in the republic, shall establish military
22 administrations in municipalities and other communities.
23 "Military administration commanders shall be appointed by the
24 defence minister.
25 "Unified military administration may be established for areas
Page 5225
1 including two or more municipalities."
2 Q. Article 10, please.
3 A. Article 15?
4 Q. 10.
5 A. Article 10:
6 "The bodies of military administration, in co-operation with
7 republican state bodies, commands, and army units, and other entities,
8 are duty-bound to remove and eliminate all the causes and reasons for
9 which military administration was imposed, within the time-limits
10 established in the relevant document."
11 Q. Now Article 15?
12 A. "In carrying out the duties and tasks in their area of work, the
13 bodies of military administration shall have jurisdiction to use the
14 police and may also require the engagement of army units when that is in
15 the interests of defence," et cetera.
16 Q. Article 16, "Final Provisions"?
17 A. Yes:
18 "These rules shall enter into force on the date of promulgation
19 and shall not be published in the Official Gazette of Republika Srpska,
20 but will instead be made available to the users, together with the
21 decision to impose military administration.
22 "Defence Minister Bogdan Subotic."
23 THE ACCUSED: Scroll down to see this. Thank you.
24 [Interpretation] May this document be admitted?
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
Page 5226
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D460, Your Honours.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 1D1984, please. Not translation, I'm afraid. Perhaps the OTP
4 has a translation. In any case, it's very short.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. So read it in full.
7 A. "Pursuant to Article 7, paragraph 5, of the Law on Defence, and
8 in view of the fact that it's impossible to establish civilian
9 authorities, the president of the Presidency of Republika Srpska hereby
10 adopts the decision to impose military administration."
11 Article 1:
12 "Military administration is hereby imposed on the territory of
13 the Serbian municipality of Bosanski Brod."
14 Article 2:
15 "The military administration shall carry on in its tasks and
16 duties pursuant to the law and other regulations of Republika Srpska,
17 following the organisation and issuing of tasks prescribed by the defence
18 minister."
19 Article 3:
20 "This decision shall enter into force on the date of adoption and
21 shall apply pending the establishment of civilian municipal authorities,
22 but not longer than four months."
23 Signed: "President Radovan Karadzic."
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. This is one example of
25 such a decision that we laid our hands on. It concerns the municipality
Page 5227
1 of Brod, Bosanski Brod, and it's the same date as the previous document.
2 On the same day when the minister proposed it, I imposed military
3 administration.
4 May this document be admitted, please?
5 Could the transcript please reflect that the witness confirmed
6 what I had said in my question.
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mandic, did you confirm what Mr. Karadzic said
8 earlier on?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, on the same day this
10 order was made, the same day when the minister of defence made that
11 decision. Yes, Your Honour.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted for
13 identification?
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D19895, please. Could we have
17 that in e-court, 1D1895.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Could you please interpret this for us? You don't have to read
20 it out.
21 It's not that -- 1D1985. It's not that document. Could this be
22 placed on the ELMO. Oh, no, right, this is the document I wanted.
23 Minister, can you tell us briefly what this is? This is
24 obviously one of a series of documents from the minister of defence. Can
25 you tell us what this is about?
Page 5228
1 A. In that previous document, it says that the minister of defence
2 appoints the head of the military administration, and this is an example
3 of such an appointment. The minister appointed Lieutenant-Colonel
4 Dragutin Mikac for the municipality of Brod
5 Q. And what does paragraph 2 say?
6 A. "The head of the Military Administration of the Serb municipality
7 of Brod is in charge of the Military Administration and is duty-bound to
8 ensure the carrying out of tasks and duties established in the rules on
9 the organisation and tasks of Military Administration," and so on.
10 Q. Paragraph 3?
11 A. Paragraph 3:
12 "Reports on the work and functioning of the Military
13 Administration. The Serbian municipality of Brod
14 the head of the Military Administration, to the minister of defence,
15 every 15 days, and, if necessary, more often that that."
16 Q. Signed: "Bogdan Subotic"?
17 A. Yes.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can the document be
19 admitted for identification?
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 1D1986, please. It's all in this same series from the same
24 municipality. 1D1986.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
Page 5229
1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I may suggest a time expedient, one
2 which I've discussed with Mr. Robinson. It may be more appropriate, and
3 certainly more expeditious, for the Defence to Bar-table the remainder of
4 these series of documents. We now know the context. They can indicate
5 the particular relevance. The Prosecution -- and the providence. The
6 Prosecution could respond. The Court will have more information, and we
7 will move through this process faster, and the accused will have more
8 time to deal with Mr. Mandic on the subjects about which he can provide
9 specific elaboration.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
11 I was wondering the point of putting these documents to the
12 witness, again, with which the Prosecution has no disagreement.
13 These kinds of documents may be the ones that will be put to the
14 witness to take a look at overnight.
15 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE KWON: And also then subject to later Bar table motion.
17 MR. TIEGER: I would have asked to be heard on the suggestion of
18 presenting documents to the witness for -- to append his signature on the
19 basis of some -- well, on the basis of the suggestion the accused made
20 about some familiarity. We wouldn't know anything about that. I would
21 think, for the reasons mentioned earlier and for that reason, the Bar
22 table submission would be far more preferable. The Court would have much
23 more information from both the Defence and any responsive information
24 from the Prosecution, plus the possibility of hearing any additional --
25 of having the opportunity to see any additional documents that the
Page 5230
1 Prosecution, in this case, or the other side when the Prosecution makes
2 Bar table submissions, may also consider relevant. And then with that
3 information, the Court can decide what's appropriate to admit.
4 JUDGE KWON: Now I see your point, Mr. Tieger.
5 Do you have any observations, Mr. Karadzic? Mr. Robinson.
6 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, thank you, Mr. President.
7 I think we would be amenable in trying to do as much as we can
8 through a Bar table motion, although we saw that the Bar table motion of
9 the Prosecution didn't go too far when it first started, and so we think
10 there's some risk, possibly. But with the Prosecution's position, at
11 least -- we would be willing to take that risk and try to move to a Bar
12 table approach with some of these documents.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes. The witness testified, in general terms, about
14 the Military Administration, but there's no need to go through each and
15 every document with the witness, while he was asking for further time.
16 MR. TIEGER: I was going to make a very similar point,
17 Your Honour, and I think you beat me to it, and that is: Whatever risk
18 existed before, I think, has been overtaken by the fact that we now have
19 a great deal of contextualisation for the submission of these documents
20 as well as other issues which have been contextualised during the course
21 of this witness's examination.
22 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's move on.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Then this would be the last one that I will be dealing with in
25 this way, because it belongs to this series, and we'll see about the
Page 5231
1 rest.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Minister, is this the 6th of February, 1993? The military
4 administrator, Lieutenant-Colonel Dragutin Mikac, is reporting about the
5 establishment of civilian authorities in the municipality of Brod
6 is informing the minister of defence about that; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you read the first paragraph, please?
9 A. "I hereby inform you that in the municipality of Brod
10 of February, 1993, civilian organs of municipal authority have been
11 constituted. Through the election of Assembly bodies and organs, the
12 requirements have been met from Article 3 of the decision of the
13 president of the Presidency of Republika Srpska, number 01-1788/92 of
14 October 10, 1992
15 municipality of Brod."
16 Q. Can you go on? Can you read the part further down?
17 A. This was submitted to the authorised organ of the
18 27th Motorised Brigade.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Can this document be admitted?
21 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that criminal reports
24 were not reflected in the transcript, "Criminal reports."
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 5232
1 Q. Could you please read this out once again: "Criminal
2 reports ..."
3 A. "Criminal reports, with evidentiary material, have been taken out
4 of the register and were sent to the authorised organ of the
5 27th Motorised Brigade.
6 Q. Does that mean that the military administrator filed criminal
7 reports with regard to all crimes, and charged that
8 27th Motorised Brigade with dealing with this further?
9 A. Yes, probably from that motorised brigade or from another organ
10 of the military judiciary.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. This has been admitted;
12 right? Has it been admitted?
13 1D2079, could I have that, then, please.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Let us see what happened in your own ministry on the 21st of
16 October, 1992, with a view to establishing the rule of law.
17 1D2079. Do we have that or shall I have a copy placed on the
18 ELMO? Some ERN number is -- yes, that's it, right.
19 You don't have to read the preamble to us. Could you just tell
20 us what kind of decision this was that you passed?
21 A. It had to do with the appointment of the republican
22 administrative inspector, Ms. Milena [phoen] Vucic.
23 Q. Could you explain to us what that means? What does this
24 administrative inspector do? What is his or her job?
25 A. The job involves going to see local authorities and examine the
Page 5233
1 legality of the activity of local government in Republika Srpska.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Can it be MFI
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Minister, why was this necessary?
6 A. Because regulations were being violated in the domain of local
7 government.
8 Q. Couldn't have this been done in other ways? This inspector
9 actually had to move about?
10 A. Yes. Yes, an inspector has to see what bylaws say and other
11 documents adopted by municipal assemblies and other local organs, to see
12 the extent to which regulations are being violated, those that were
13 passed by the Assembly and that the government was supposed to work on.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Can this be admitted?
16 JUDGE KWON: This will be MFI
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Q. Minister, it seems to me that in your testimony in the Stanisic
19 case, or at some assembly, you said that these local princes would
20 sometimes even establish local prisons that did not belong to the system
21 of the ministry, or, rather, the legal system; is that right?
22 A. Yes. Yes, that did happen, and we established that here as well,
23 that this happened when the war started in Bosnia-Herzegovina, or,
24 rather, in the territory of Republika Srpska.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 5234
1 Can we have 65 ter 135, please.
2 JUDGE KWON: If I may intervene once again, Mr. Karadzic.
3 Mr. Mandic, I heard your evidence, before the war, after the war,
4 or when the war started. When did the war start? What incident do you
5 call as the start of the war?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Armed conflicts in Bosnia
7 Herzegovina
8 was recognised by the European Union. According to all experts and in
9 different cases, especially in General Galic's case, when seven experts
10 were heard, including Robert Dole [as interpreted], it was established
11 that the armed conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina started with the armed
12 conflict in the territory of the city of Sarajevo, on that date.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Mandic.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Would you agree, Minister, that incidents before the 6th of April
16 primarily had Serb victims? The 3rd of March, Bosanski Brod, then the
17 25th and 26th of March, Bosanski Brod and Sijekovac and the Neretva River
18 Valley, Travnik and so on, then Serbs were moving out of Livno, all of
19 that happened before the 6th of April. Do you agree that that was also a
20 war along with attacks from Croatia
21 army?
22 A. These are considered to be inter-ethnic incidents and clashes
23 that do not have the characteristics of an armed conflict, that is to
24 say, a war, Mr. President.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 5235
1 Can we have 65 ter 135, please.
2 May I inform all the participants that now we are moving on to
3 the topic of prisons and prisoners of war.
4 I'm afraid this is not the right document. 65 ter 135, please.
5 It is not 1D135; it is 65 ter 135.
6 This one will be very interesting, too, because it speaks about
7 the links that the Muslim government had with various international Arab
8 intermediaries or brokers.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. This is a session held on the 6th of August; can you confirm
11 that?
12 A. Yes.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page; in
14 English as well, the next page, please.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. So could you please have a look at this?
17 A. The work of the commission was discussed, the work of the
18 Commission for Investigating War Crimes Committed against the Serbian
19 People in the Serbian Republic
20 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
21 Q. Please go on.
22 A. "Conclusion":
23 "The Commission for Investigating War Crimes commited against the
24 Serb people will start working, even if it is necessary to replace the
25 members of the Commission. The treatment of --"
Page 5236
1 Q. "Prisoners of war"?
2 A. "... prisoners of war detained in prisons in Serb territory was
3 discussed. The prisoners should be divided into three categories: those
4 captured on the front; those who took part in arming and operations of
5 the Territorial Defence of the former Bosnia and Herzegovina; and those
6 who assisted and financed Alija's army. It was pointed out that we
7 should abide by international conventions on the treatment of prisoners
8 of war."
9 Q. Minister, do you agree that prisoners of war are only those who
10 participated in enemy combat activities in one of the three ways
11 described here and that there is no mention of civilians?
12 A. I don't see any civilians being mentioned in this text, only
13 three kinds of prisoners of war; immediate participants, those financing,
14 and those assisting arming.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page in
16 Serbian and keep the current page in English. The next page in Serbian.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Can you read us the whole page: "To that end ...," and then the
19 conclusion?
20 A. "To that end, the completely humane treatment of prisoners of war
21 is advised because they are in prisons and not in concentration camps.
22 In wartime, payments for their food, clothes, hygiene, guarding, and so
23 on are made at our expense.
24 "Conclusion: The Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian
25 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina will be ordered to examine, through
Page 5237
1 its municipal branches, the behaviour of all civilian authorities and
2 individuals guarding prisoners of war. The information will be passed to
3 the MUP," that is, the police, "which will pass it on to the Presidency
4 of the Serbian Republic
5 And the signatory is "Radovan Karadzic."
6 Q. Thank you. This was on the 6th of August; is that right? That
7 was the date on the first page?
8 A. I didn't look. I'm not sure.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 1 of both
10 versions, the English and Serbian, so that we can check the date.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the date is the 6th of August.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 May this document be admitted?
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D465, Your Honour.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have D100 - I think it's
17 already been admitted - just to remind ourselves what I wrote to the
18 prime minister. D100. It's been admitted as D100. I hope there is a
19 translation. Yes, there is.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Can you tell us what this document is about?
22 A. It's a letter sent from the Presidency to the government, to
23 Mr. Branko Djeric, and it says:
24 "Dear president, I am enclosing copies of the reports I have just
25 received regarding the state of prisoners in Manjaca and Bileca. In
Page 5238
1 relation to these reports, I have sent a letter to
2 Mr. Cornelius Samaruga, the president of the ICRC, and General Ratko
3 Mladic.
4 "I expect that the government, through the ministries of law --
5 through the ministries of justice and internal affairs, based on the
6 reports, will take immediate measures for the improvement of the living
7 conditions in the prisons that are operated by civilian authorities on
8 our territory."
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. This has already been
10 admitted.
11 May we have the next document, please. We are now dealing with
12 the topic of prisoners of war and the institutions detaining them.
13 May we now have 65 ter 11512.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
15 Q. Do you agree, Minister, that a large number of Muslims responded
16 to Alija Izetbegovic's call for general mobilisation issued on the 4th of
17 April, 1992, that a huge number responded?
18 A. I know that on the 4th of April, Mr. Izetbegovic made a public
19 proclamation of general mobilisation, but I'm not informed as to how many
20 Muslims responded.
21 Q. Thank you. But do you accept the assessment of their generals
22 that 70 or 75 per cent of their soldiers fought wearing their civilian
23 clothes, at least in the first year?
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
25 MR. TIEGER: I don't want to intervene much, but in this case
Page 5239
1 I think the witness has indicated he doesn't know, and now he's being
2 asked whether he has any reason -- whether he's accepting a proposition
3 made by, presumably, officials with whom he's not familiar. I'm not sure
4 how that advances the process.
5 JUDGE KWON: The second question seems to be related to a
6 separate issue, as to the issue of wearing civilian clothes, so I let it
7 go.
8 Mr. Mandic, can you answer the question?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have already
10 answered this question. I know that at the beginning of the war, the
11 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not have uniforms that were all the same
12 and that a large number of people wore civilian clothes. I've already
13 said that two or three days ago. But as to what numbers or what
14 percentage of those were in civilian clothes, I really wouldn't know.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page. The
17 next page, please.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. On the 9th of August, was this signed on behalf of Mr. Djeric by
20 the deputy prime minister, Trbojevic, and can you tell us about this
21 decision?
22 A. I think I explained this decision in the Stanisic case, where I
23 have fully accepted my testimony in that case, but I will repeat that.
24 At your request and pursuant to your letter of the 7th or 8th of
25 August, as we saw, a commission was set up to visit all the places for
Page 5240
1 which it was learned -- it was found or suspected that there were persons
2 being detained. So when Avlijas, from the Ministry of Justice and
3 Administration, and Goran Saric, from the Ministry of the Interior, as
4 professionals, expert in those issues, were appointed to that commission,
5 one of them went to the Krajina, the other one, Mr. Avlijas, went to
6 Central Bosnia
7 to visit all the places and all the municipalities for which there was
8 reason to believe there were local prisons or places where non-Serbs were
9 being held. So the government responded immediately.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 May this document be admitted?
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D466, Your Honour.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D1902. 1D1902.
15 While we are waiting for it to come up: This is a document
16 issued by the Ministry of the Interior, dated the 10th of August.
17 I don't know whether we have a translation. Yes, we do. I will
18 ask that you be handed this decision. I'm not sure this is the document.
19 1902, it's dated 1992. It's something military from 1995, so 1D1902.
20 This is the document in Serbian, yes. Now, do we have a
21 translation?
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 Q. So this is the next day. The minister of the interior, pursuant
25 to the decision of the government, is issuing instructions to the centres
Page 5241
1 in the places listed here. Can you tell us what the minister is
2 ordering?
3 A. The minister of the police is issuing an order that the detention
4 and holding measures shall be applied exclusively within existing
5 regulations, and he tells the chiefs that they shall be personally
6 responsible for the lives of people who are being held and detained. And
7 he is calling for the prevention of any form of abuse in that area. The
8 premises were people are being held or detained must fulfill basic
9 requirements of hygiene and health.
10 And in item 2:
11 "The security of collection centres shall be the direct
12 responsibility of the Serbian Army, and if they do not have enough men
13 for these duties, it shall therefore be necessary to engage members of
14 the reserve police for these tasks and to place them at the army's
15 disposition."
16 And it's signed by Mico Stanisic. Those who do not comply with
17 this order shall be disciplined.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. May this document be
19 admitted?
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D467, Your Honours.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Can we have 1D219.
24 This is the 14th of August. So four days later, the 14th of
25 August, the minister's order here is being made operational.
Page 5242
1 I hope we have the translation. Yes, we have it.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. So to avoid reading the whole document, can you tell us who is
4 making this operational and how?
5 A. This order was sent to the chiefs of the regions, the one -- not
6 this one, but the one by the minister, and now the chief of one of the
7 regions is establishing commissions to visit the municipalities, tour the
8 municipalities, and establish what the situation is in these
9 municipalities as regards the detention of persons by the police and
10 holding them in custody.
11 Q. I think that the names of these people are mentioned in reports
12 we shall see later on, but what you have told us is the gist of this
13 document?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So Vojin Bera, Vaso Skondric, Ranko Mijic and Jugoslav Rodic are
16 members of the commission. Can you read the explanation -- the statement
17 of reasons to us?
18 A. "The chief of the Security Service Centre of Banja Luka ..."
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the page be scrolled down in
20 English or the next page opened? We need the end of the document in
21 English. Yes, this is it.
22 A. So the chief, pursuant to the order of the minister of the
23 interior of the Serbian Republic
24 Centre has issued this decision on the establishment of the commission to
25 visit the municipalities of Prijedor, Boskoski Novi and Sanski Most, and
Page 5243
1 he gives him the tasks listed in this decision.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 May this be admitted?
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. So it's Mr. Zupljanin who issued this order as soon as he
6 received the minister's letter; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D468, Your Honours.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 May we have 1D1905.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. So when it's zoomed in, can you tell us what sort of document
14 this is, and who signed it, and what it means?
15 A. I cannot recognise the signature.
16 Q. But can you tell us what this document is about? It's another
17 order; right?
18 A. It's an order repeating the order:
19 "... to all security services centres, public security stations,
20 and their organisational units to act exclusively in accordance with the
21 law, with MUP responsibilities, and with the regulations of the
22 International Law of War and International Conventions when dealing with
23 prisoners of war and the civilian population refugees.
24 "The ministry is to be informed immediately of the existence of
25 potential unofficial prison camps and to any behaviour towards prisoners
Page 5244
1 of war and refugees violating legal provisions and international
2 conventions.
3 "It is necessary to immediately initiate the collection of
4 intelligence and documentation on individuals violating the existing
5 regulations and acting contrary to our orders."
6 And they are to be reported to the relevant prosecutors' office.
7 And it's signed by for the minister of the interior.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 May this document be admitted?
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D469, Your Honours.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Can we get 1D2044. And now we rely on our learned friends to
14 produce a translation, if they have one. The page ends with numbers 527.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Now, Minister, if I'm not mistaken, this is a status report, and
17 refugee-related issues, collection centres, evacuation, et cetera, and it
18 refers to the document from Mr. Zupljanin. It says on the 14th of
19 August, the commission of Sanski Most -- Prijedor, Bosanski Novi and
20 Sanski Most hereby submits this inspection report, and it first deals
21 with Prijedor municipality?
22 A. Yes.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It seems we will get a translation.
24 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Registrar, 17874.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
Page 5245
1 This is the cover sheet in Serbian, and we now see the English.
2 Can we turn to the next page in Serbian. Now, the first
3 sentence, please, and the second paragraph, and the next page in English
4 as well.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The armed conflicts began in
6 Prijedor municipality on 24th of May, 1992, in the broader area of the
7 Kozarac settlement between the forces of the Serbian Republic
8 extremists, and then spread to other places in the municipality."
9 Q. We'll deal with that another time. Now we are interested in this
10 inspection report. The next paragraph, please.
11 A. "During these clashes, the Army of Republika Srpska captured a
12 large number of members of enemy units and other persons who had been
13 found in the areas of armed conflict, and a number of citizens leaving
14 their homes sought help and protection."
15 Q. The next paragraph, please?
16 A. "In order to deal with this problem, the Crisis Staff of the
17 Prijedor municipality decided to organise reception and accommodation of
18 such persons in Trnopolje and that prisoners of war should be held for
19 processing in the building of the Keraterm work organisation in Prijedor
20 or in the administrative building and workshop of the iron ore mine in
21 Omarska."
22 Q. Now, read the sentence that contains the date "24 May 1992."
23 A. "As of 24 May 1992
24 sexes and all age groups sought protection in the centre. There are
25 currently around 1500 citizens of Muslim and Croat ethnicity in this
Page 5246
1 centre."
2 Q. One more sentence, please.
3 A. "The number of people in the centre varies. There are no special
4 records kept, since the citizens are free to come and go as they please."
5 Q. This is halfway through the last paragraph. I hope you found it
6 in English. [In English] "24th of May." [Interpretation] It's halfway
7 down the last paragraph.
8 Thank you, Minister. Now, can you go on?
9 And in English, we'll probably need the next page. The next page
10 in English, please.
11 A. "Around-the-clock infirmary has been organised in the centre, and
12 activists of the Red Cross, the municipal authorities, and the army are
13 providing the citizens with aid in food, clothing, and other things. In
14 the centre, the citizens have organised themselves, and they obtain and
15 prepare food and other essentials. The area used for this purpose is not
16 fenced in, and there is no interrogation of citizens in the centre. Army
17 troops stand guard outside the centre to secure it against any threat
18 from the extremists outside."
19 Q. Is your knowledge about Trnopolje consistent with this report by
20 this police commission?
21 A. I know nothing about Trnopolje or Manjaca, Mr. President.
22 Q. We will also hear evidence from foreign witnesses that Trnopolje
23 was a self-organised centre. Do you know that in Prijedor, after over
24 3.000 fighting men were captured, investigation and interrogation had to
25 take place in another building because the police station couldn't hold
Page 5247
1 them?
2 A. I don't know about that.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please. We stay on the
4 same page in English.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Paragraph 2:
7 "Pursuant to the decision of the Crisis Staff, mixed operative
8 teams were established, including representatives of national, public,
9 and military security, with a task to conduct an operative processing of
10 all the captives and establish the degree of their personal
11 responsibility in armed combat."
12 A. In this problem -- the army and the police created a joint team
13 to question all the people captured and established the degree of their
14 liability in armed combat.
15 Q. Is it customary that documents are compiled in every individual
16 case, documents and records that would show why someone was released or
17 detained in Manjaca?
18 A. In keeping with the Law on Criminal Procedure, a statement has to
19 be taken in writing, and the entire legal procedure has to be followed to
20 establish whether there are any grounds for releasing or detaining
21 someone. The police could hold a person legally for 72 hours - I don't
22 know about the military police - and within that time-frame they had to
23 be either processed or transferred to the Public Prosecutor's Office for
24 further processing.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page in both
Page 5248
1 versions:
2 [In English] "... in the municipality quickly spread to most of
3 the settlements ..."
4 [Interpretation] "However, armed conflict quickly spread
5 throughout the municipality."
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Now, could you please read this passage that begins with the
8 words: "According to available documents ..."?
9 A. "According to available documents and lists, between 27 May and
10 16 August, 1992
11 Omarska Investigation Centre. They had been captured by the army in
12 combat or had been found in places where hostilities had occurred, or had
13 been brought in on the basis of the results of the operative processing
14 in the investigation centre."
15 Q. And go on, please.
16 A. "After completing their investigations, and depending on the
17 results, the operatives divided all the captives into three categories,
18 according to the degree of personal responsibility in the armed
19 insurgency."
20 Q. So peace was somehow maintained until the 24th of May, and the
21 armed insurgency occurred only then?
22 A. It says "27 May."
23 Q. The 27th of May is when they were brought in, but the armed
24 insurgency happened on the 24th?
25 A. The first category, a person suspected of the most serious
Page 5249
1 crimes, who were directly involved in the organisation and -- of the
2 armed insurgency and the insurgency, itself. The second category are
3 persons who are suspected of organising, aiding, abetting, and financing
4 and illegally supplying arms. Category 3, persons who are captured and
5 brought in from areas where they had been fighting, but happened to be
6 there --
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page in
8 Serbian.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "... who happened to be there
10 because they were unable to withdraw to a safe place because of their own
11 extremists. During the investigation, no evidence was found that they
12 had in any way taken part in the armed rebellion."
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Next?
15 A. "For each category and each individual, the operatives compiled
16 documents and evidence. After that, 1.331 persons were transferred to
17 the Manjaca Army Camp, 1.773 to the Open Reception Centre in Trnopolje,
18 while 179 are still being investigated in the Omarska Investigation
19 Centre."
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page in English, please.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Minister, do you agree that 1.773 persons were freed from further
23 investigation, and that is 57 per cent; right? What I mean to say is:
24 More of them were freed and volunteered to go to Trnopolje than the total
25 of persons who were placed in Manjaca?
Page 5250
1 A. Can you rephrase that question?
2 Q. Does this report show that more than 50 per cent were freed from
3 further investigation?
4 A. You mean that there were more of those who went to the
5 Open Reception Centre in Trnopolje? Yes.
6 Q. In the next paragraph, do you see that there were 3.000 --
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mandic, do you agree that those who were
8 transferred to Trnopolje were freed?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's why I asked Mr. Karadzic to
10 rephrase, because it says they were placed in the Open Reception Centre,
11 Trnopolje. I was only looking at the figures, but whether it was an open
12 or closed reception centre, I don't know.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 Mr. Karadzic, I'm noting the time.
15 Mr. Tieger.
16 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.
17 I have to raise a scheduling issue which I think may be --
18 JUDGE KWON: That's the question I was going to put to
19 Mr. Karadzic.
20 MR. TIEGER: Yes.
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you've spent so far 19 hours and 15
22 minutes with this witness. If we would stick to the 20 hours we
23 originally allowed to you, you would have only 45 minutes left, and you
24 should be able to conclude your cross-examination by the end of today.
25 In any event, for planning purposes, and even for your planning
Page 5251
1 purpose, the Chamber wishes to know how much longer you would need to
2 conclude your cross-examination.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I was hoping,
4 Your Excellency, that I would have at least two sessions tomorrow. You
5 see how many areas we have yet to cover. We finished with the struggle
6 with the municipal authorities, investigations in prison. We have to
7 deal with the refugees and their return. What we are doing now,
8 Trnopolje, Omarska, Manjaca, and other prisons, we need to go through
9 documents and to see what the powers of the president were, because the
10 indictment frequently alleges that the president was able to carry out
11 investigations. And this witness, since he is a lawyer and he was a
12 minister of justice and administration, is able to tell us exactly what
13 the president was able or was not able to do. He is such a precious
14 witness to me, and I would appreciate it, really, if I could have at
15 least another half hour to get Mr. Mandic to assist us in getting a full
16 picture about Sarajevo
17 who was fighting against whom, which part of the population was situated
18 where, et cetera. Mr. Mandic can be very helpful in this issue.
19 I don't think that we should sacrifice this opportunity of
20 hearing a very well-informed witness to expediency.
21 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will give its ruling when we resume at
22 10 past 1.00, after a 30 minutes' break.
23 --- Recess taken at 12.41 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 1.16 p.m.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber has considered your
Page 5252
1 request and decided that you will have two hours tomorrow.
2 I'm afraid, Mr. Tieger, that may complicate the scheduling matter
3 on your part. That means the next witness should be interposed by the
4 second-next witness?
5 MR. TIEGER: Yeah, we were trying to deal with all the
6 permutations that might follow the current schedule, so let me raise a
7 couple of issues, if I may, Your Honour.
8 As it turns out, it appears that we -- that arrangements can be
9 made for an interpreter for Thursday, but we would need to know that. So
10 that would mean, among other things, it would be extremely helpful if the
11 Court could advise us, at the first opportunity, of the length of
12 anticipated cross-examination for Mr. Abdel-Razek.
13 JUDGE KWON: I beg your pardon. Thursday?
14 MR. TIEGER: Correct. I think originally we anticipated -- we
15 understood that interpreters would only be available Monday, Tuesday, and
16 Wednesday, but it looks like CLSS can make arrangements for one
17 additional day.
18 One of the reasons I raise that is that might make it possible,
19 therefore, given the schedule tomorrow, it looks like we wouldn't finish
20 Mr. Mandilovic, rather than putting him over entirely, you know, for many
21 extra days, we could complete his testimony on Monday if we factored in
22 the length of anticipated cross-examination and the availability of one
23 more day for the interpreter.
24 JUDGE KWON: I think the Chamber will be able to give you the
25 time-limit for Mr. Karadzic's cross-examination of those witnesses coming
Page 5253
1 by tomorrow morning.
2 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. I understand the
3 arrangements -- we have a specialised interpreter, an Arabic interpreter
4 involved, and so I gather, from the information we've received, that
5 those arrangements have to be made by the close of business today. So
6 while I hesitate to push the Chamber on this issue, I think that's an
7 answer we need at the first opportunity.
8 JUDGE KWON: I'll give it a try, to give you that estimate before
9 the end of today's business.
10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I was advised by the Court Deputy that the
13 Registry has kindly agreed to sit on Monday from 1.30 to 7.00. So unless
14 the parties have a problem, we'll sit in that way on Monday.
15 MR. TIEGER: Well, I suppose the only thing that occurs to me is
16 since the interview of the witness is expected for Monday -- we haven't
17 been able -- we haven't been able to reach the witness because he's
18 en route, so we don't know what answer he'll give, but it does occur to
19 me that the earlier the court time commences, perhaps the less willing
20 the witness might be to engage in an interview that concludes immediately
21 before he's supposed to take the stand. But I leave that to the Court
22 and to the Defence, primarily.
23 JUDGE KWON: We'll finalise the matter tomorrow. Thank you.
24 Let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 5254
1 Q. Minister, since I was not given as much time as I had hoped for,
2 allow me to summarise, and could you please follow and see whether that's
3 it. The other participants can do that as well.
4 You said that documentation, accompanied by material evidence,
5 was compiled for every person, and that is why some persons were
6 transferred to Manjaca and others to Trnopolje?
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It is too fast for
8 interpretation. We don't have the figures.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
10 JUDGE KWON: The interpreters didn't follow you because you spoke
11 so fast; in particular, the numbers.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "Those operatives," that paragraph.
13 We've dealt with that already in English.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. I'm just trying to say that documentation had to exist then.
16 They confirmed that documentation did exist and that on the basis of
17 these previous proceedings, 1.331 individuals were found to be
18 combatants, transferred to Manjaca, and 1.733 to the centre, while 189
19 persons were still being processed. Do you agree that this documentation
20 was, indeed, established and that it should be before this Court?
21 A. This is the first time I see this document. These are police
22 documents. I can only give an interpretation on the basis of the text I
23 see here.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We asked the OTP, and
25 the OTP was convinced that there were 10 batches. Now I'm going to ask
Page 5255
1 the Trial Chamber to encourage the OTP to get these 3.000-something
2 investigation documents to see why certain persons were deemed to be
3 combatants and others were set free. 57 per cent were set free. Could
4 we please have those documents?
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Minister, does it say here that there were 11 Serbs as well?
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: I don't want to intervene and waste Mr. Karadzic's
9 time, but I suggest to him that he doesn't do so also. If he has a 66(B)
10 request to make or something of that nature, we can do it in proper form
11 rather than taking time during the course of this witness's examination.
12 JUDGE KWON: Very well, agreed.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I think we already asked for
14 that, and that the response we got was that this was in the first 10
15 batches. They did, indeed, kindly provide us with those 10 batches, but
16 it's not there.
17 MR. TIEGER: Well, then, even more inappropriate, Your Honour.
18 Can we proceed, please?
19 JUDGE KWON: Let's not waste, I think, precious court time.
20 Let's proceed.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Q. Minister, does it say that there were 11 Serbs there and also
23 that only 179 persons remain, and they would be dealt with within seven
24 days, that the investigation would be over with in seven days; right?
25 A. Yes, that is what is stated here, 11 Serbs.
Page 5256
1 Q. And in the next paragraph, it says that on the basis of what the
2 chief said, the investigation of the --
3 A. 179 persons remaining will be completed at the latest within
4 seven days.
5 Q. Thank you. The next paragraph -- or, rather, the next chapter
6 speaks about the moving out of citizens from the municipality of
7 Prijedor.
8 Can we have the next page in Serbian, please.
9 It says here that families of these extremists, 4.000 to 5.000 of
10 them, had left earlier on, probably because they had received information
11 that there would be conflicts, whereas the others went through regular
12 procedure and asked to be allowed to leave in order to go to Croatia
13 Europe
14 A. According to this text, yes.
15 Q. I'm just asking whether that is what it says in this text, in
16 this police report. I understand as minister of justice, you didn't know
17 have to know about that.
18 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Mandic. I didn't recognise --
19 yes, Mr. Tieger.
20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 I just wanted to note that we're continuing now in a series of
22 questions, asking this witness whether the document says what anybody in
23 the courtroom, or, for that matter, anybody outside the courtroom can see
24 what it says. I don't think this adds any value, and it is a waste of
25 time.
Page 5257
1 JUDGE KWON: I can't agree more. We can read the documents if we
2 admit it. And you can raise the points during your submission. Ask a
3 question the witness is really aware of.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I address the Defence in this
6 respect, Your Honours?
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, these are documents
9 that are police and military documents from 1993. This is the first time
10 that I come across them. If you have some documents or questions where I
11 was personally involved, where I participated, where I can shed some more
12 light, whereby I can present the truth to this Court, then please put
13 questions like that to me. This is the very first time I see these
14 police orders, then this military jurisdiction, and so on. I really feel
15 useless. Can I be somewhat more useful? It seems to me that I'm sitting
16 here in vein.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Can we just have the last page, then.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. I'm not asking you whether these people did that exactly or
21 whether this was a usual type of police report. That's the only thing I
22 wanted. So can we just identify the date in both versions and the
23 signatures of these persons who you probably know or you have heard of
24 them, at least?
25 A. Simo Drljaca, the chief, signed this, and I know him personally.
Page 5258
1 Q. No, I have something different. Page 16. Page 16, Vojin Bera,
2 Vaso Skondric, Ranko Mijic, Jugoslav Rodic, on the 18th of August, 1992
3 So you were still minister, but not of the police, but minister of
4 justice?
5 A. I don't have that document.
6 Q. Page 16, right?
7 A. Right. So this is a report for the area of Prijedor. This is a
8 commission that was established by the chief of the Centre of Security
9 Stations of Banja Luka in accordance with the order issued by the
10 minister.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. The English version
12 only has to do with Prijedor; whereas the Serbian, it's Prijedor,
13 Bosanski Novi.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sanski Most.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Sanski Most, yes.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Has this document
18 already been admitted?
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit it.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D470, Your Honours.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just have a request. Could the
22 translation be adjusted? It should be the translation of this document
23 rather than just of this police report signed by Simo Drljaca.
24 1D1851, could we have that, please.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 5259
1 Q. Minister, while we're waiting for this: Have you read
2 Professor Koljevic's diary?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Very well. What I wish to say now is recorded there. Do you
5 remember that Muhamed Cengic asked, through Biljana Plavsic, that I allow
6 Muslims from Trebinje to move out of Trebinje, and that I refused that?
7 A. I know that the former Deputy prime minister of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Muhamed Cengic, asked for permission for
9 Herzegovinians of Muslim ethnicity to move out, but I don't know what
10 happened with regard to the actual decisions. I know that he publicly
11 called for that.
12 Q. Thank you, but I refused it. We have a document here before us.
13 These are instructions of the Party of Democratic Action. It says here:
14 "Party of Democratic Action, Trebinje." That is the addressee. We see
15 all of that. We all see this document. In this document, instructions
16 are provided -- Hasan, the other Cengic, actually, the clergyman and the
17 SDA secretary.
18 Could I have the next page, please.
19 Instructions are being provided to Muslims to go to Montenegro
20 Now, do you remember that after they left, the Muslims, the SDA, asked
21 that Trebinje be given to them, in terms of maps, because Trebinje had
22 been a victim of ethnic cleansing?
23 A. I saw this document earlier on, Mr. President, and I know that
24 Hasan Cengic, a hodja from Ustikkolina, who was the secretary-general of
25 the Party of Democratic Action, asked his countrymen to move out of
Page 5260
1 certain parts of Eastern Herzegovina in order to achieve his objective;
2 namely, he wanted the international community to be angry at the Serb
3 municipalities that gravitated towards Montenegro and, in part, Serbia
4 well.
5 Q. Does it say here all of your --
6 "Restitution will be made for all of your property when we
7 achieve our goal and we will know how to put the right price on your
8 sacrifice, a sacrifice that all of the Muslims in the world expect from
9 you"?
10 A. Yes, yes, I saw this document before.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted into evidence?
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D471, Your Honours.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We shall corroborate this by using
15 Professor Koljevic's diary.
16 Can we have 65 ter 196, please.
17 JUDGE KWON: Is it Mr. Koljevic's diary?
18 MR. TIEGER: No, I wanted -- I wanted to make a point, that once
19 again I ask to be advised, if possible -- I know we're moving at a
20 reasonably quick pace, but I hope the Defence is aware of which documents
21 they've notified and which they haven't. And if they can advise us when
22 they are producing a document that's not among the 1200-plus documents
23 that's on the list they provided.
24 JUDGE KWON: So this minute was not informed?
25 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour, that was a reference to the
Page 5261
1 previous document, which we saw for the first time just as it was placed
2 on the screen before the Court.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but it's the rush
5 that has to be blamed for this. We've up-loaded over 2.000 documents.
6 Had we had a bit more time, we would have done all of that, but we also
7 believe that the Prosecution is aware of these documents.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Minister, is this the 19th of August, so everything seems to be
10 happening in August? This was a government session held in August;
11 right?
12 A. Yes, that is one of the very few government sessions that was
13 closed to the public.
14 Q. I see, closed to the public. And the previous report, wasn't
15 that on the 18th of August, and then the government looked at it already
16 on the 19th? So look at paragraph 2. The government was actually
17 reviewing the report of the commission, so it's the first number 2 that
18 you can see there?
19 A. Yes, yes:
20 "The government reviewed and adopted the report of the Commission
21 on Touring Collection Centres and Other Facilities for Captives in the
22 Autonomous Region of Krajina, along with the assessment that this report
23 realistically portrays the situation in these facilities."
24 This was submitted to the government within 10 days, and the
25 government accepted the report, approved it.
Page 5262
1 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that, as it says in the last
2 sentence, there are no concentration camps in the Krajina? I have this
3 document somewhere. That's what the government told me. Do you remember
4 that?
5 A. This record was forwarded to you in the Presidency, and it seems
6 to me President Djeric informed you of this also.
7 Q. Thank you. We don't have to read it all.
8 Can we look at page 2 in both Serbian and English.
9 The signature is of President Djeric and Lakic, the government
10 secretary; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May it be admitted into evidence?
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D472, Your Honours.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 May we have D101 - it's probably been admitted as D101 - simply
17 to refresh our memories.
18 This is a document -- no, this is not it. D101, or 1D244. But
19 it's been admitted, 101. Thank you.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Do you agree, Minister, that in the first sentence here it says
22 that:
23 "Pursuant to our document of the 13th of June," which is long
24 before the visit by the ICRC, "we issued an order, and now we
25 reiterate ..." "we reiterate the order," that's been underlined again,
Page 5263
1 "we order," and then there are some paragraphs dealing with the topic
2 we've been discussing. Can you tell us what this is about?
3 A. This is a second order, it's a repeated order. It's dated the
4 13th of June, 1992, or, rather, it's pursuant to the first of the 13th of
5 June, 1992, and this one is on the 19th of August, and it orders that all
6 entities honour their commitment and comply with International
7 Humanitarian Law, especially the 3rd and 4th Geneva Conventions; to issue
8 instruction to all combatants and all employees of the Ministry of the
9 Interior to respect Imprisoned individuals, civilians, medical
10 institutions, private and public places, the emblem of the Red Cross, and
11 the people and resources of the United Nations."
12 Q. Well, we've looked at items 3 and 4 with Witness Doyle, as
13 regards the handover of property, so we needn't go into that, but can you
14 please look at point 4 because it refers to this topic?
15 A. "To immediately take steps to improve conditions in all prisons
16 within the Serbian Republic
17 by the International Committee of the Red Cross during its visit to these
18 places."
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. May we have the last
20 page, please?
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. The first order of the 13th of June was before the ICRC visit,
23 while this one already refers to it?
24 A. Yes, in August.
25 Q. And can you read the last point?
Page 5264
1 A. "The general standpoint is that every army and police organ of
2 the Serbian Republic
3 of the International Red Cross, and any violation of the International
4 Humanitarian Law is obliged to carry out a vigorous investigation."
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have 2092, 2D2092 --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 1D2092.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a resume from a working
8 meeting of MUP personnel in Trebinje, so all this is taking place on
9 subsequent days -- on successive days.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. It doesn't say so here, but is the date the 20th of August, 1992
12 A. Yes.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 6 or 7 of the
14 document. In English, it's page 9. Unfortunately, we can't look at
15 everything. In English, it's page 9.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The assessment of the chief of the
17 Sarajevo Security Centre, the Crime Investigation Service, regardless of
18 the lack of --
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excuse me, I don't see it in
20 English. Oh, yes: "The Sarajevo CSB chief ..."
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Please continue.
23 A. "The Sarajevo CSB
24 Prevention Service has, despite the shortage of professional staff,
25 significantly increased its productivity in the last period (366 reports
Page 5265
1 of serious crimes submitted). The efficiency regarding war crimes has
2 been improved. The incidents of car theft and theft of other kinds of
3 property have also been significantly curbed thanks to the operational
4 and preventive measures taken ..."
5 Q. Thank you. So this is a report saying that by the 20th of
6 August, activities had been stepped up to discover the perpetrators of
7 war crimes, especially -- of crimes, especially war crimes?
8 A. Yes.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we now have the next page in
10 Serbian and page 10 in English.
11 "In Bijeljina --" "The situation in Bijeljina" in English.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Can you read this about Bijeljina?
14 A. "The situation in Bijeljina is relatively satisfactory, but in
15 truth is much worse than at first glance. The problem with the Muslim
16 section of the population is compounded by the arrival of Muslim refugees
17 and the return of those who had left Bijeljina before, influenced by
18 Mr. Karadzic's and Mr. Panic's recent statements. This population
19 includes a number of Muslim extremists, and it is believed that a large
20 number of Muslim citizens --"
21 Could we scroll down a little bit in the Serbian.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we scroll down.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. "Own weapons," is that it?
25 A. " ... Muslim citizens own weapons."
Page 5266
1 Q. Do you agree that Mr. Panic at the time was the prime minister of
2 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Does this report from Bijeljina say that after my appeal and
5 Mr. Panic's appeal for the return of refugees, refugees did, indeed,
6 return to Bijeljina, but among them there were a number of extremists?
7 A. Well, it's all there in the report.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 There are many interesting points in the entire report, so I
10 recommend everyone to read it. May it be admitted?
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit it.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D473, Your Honours.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Q. Was it our general position that refugees go back whenever it was
15 safe, whenever it was possible? Do you know that at any time, in any
16 round of negotiations or conferences, we constantly held the position
17 that refugees have the right to return and to have their property
18 reinstated? Did we always work for that?
19 A. As far as I know, you always advocated that returns could --
20 refugees could return to those places that were free of combat and their
21 property would be restored to them.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, 65 ter 01131. 65 ter 01131.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Is it a dispatch from the Security Services Centre, Banja Luka,
25 of 20th August?
Page 5267
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is it now Mr. Zupljanin forwarding, again, an order from
3 Minister Stanisic to public security stations, that is, subordinate
4 commanders?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Could you now read briefly what Stanisic ordered and Zupljanin
7 forwarded or passed on?
8 A. Through the CSB
9 ordered again to act strictly within the law and the international
10 conventions, and to take control and deal with irregular prisons, and to
11 ensure compliance with the international conventions with regard to the
12 treatment of refugees and --
13 Q. Now, the last sentence?
14 A. "It is necessary to proceed without delay, to gather information
15 and documentation, in order to submit a criminal report to the competent
16 prosecutors' office."
17 That's again the same dispatch that Stanisic had sent.
18 Q. But he's now reiterating it, he says, "I order again"?
19 A. Yes.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this be admitted?
21 JUDGE KWON: While we admit this, but all the witness did is just
22 reading out some passage in the document. We'll admit this.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D474, Your Honours.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, may I say
25 that the minister worked first on the police force, then he was briefly,
Page 5268
1 for a month, in our ministry of Republika Srpska, and at this time he was
2 minister of justice.
3 JUDGE KWON: Put your question to the witness.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Is this a normal, standing activity of the Ministry of the
6 Interior in law enforcement and ensuring regularities? Was that an
7 activity that was discussed at Cabinet sessions?
8 A. The activities of Minister Stanisic, in terms of law enforcement
9 and insistence on legality, were constant, and he reported regularly to
10 Prime Minister Djeric and to the entire Cabinet.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Does this document have a number already?
13 Can we now get 1D1903. 1D1903.
14 The Serbian version is the right one, and the English one too.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Could you take a look at this telegram. Four days later,
17 Minister Stanisic sent this to all security services centres and all
18 public security stations, so the security services centres directly
19 subordinated to him and the security stations subordinated to CSB?
20 A. Yes, he sent this dispatch to everyone.
21 Q. He notifies that the Ministry of Health asked something of the
22 Ministry of the Interior?
23 A. The Ministry of Health asks that information be collected on
24 detention camps, prisons, and collection centres in the territory of the
25 republic, and he asks, from CSBs and public security stations, to provide
Page 5269
1 the following information: the name of the place where a camp or
2 collection centre is located; 2, the name of the person who ordered that
3 this institution be established; 3, the name of the person who ordered
4 people to be brought in to these detention camps, centres, et cetera; 4,
5 the number of people in captivity, and lists containing their personal
6 information; 5, the number of persons arrested, those in temporary
7 detention separately from convicts, and lists of their names.
8 Q. Does our language and our regulations -- do they make a
9 distinction between arrested persons and convicted persons?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In fact, I was asking about the distinction between captured
12 persons and arrested persons.
13 A. A person who is arrested is a person arrested normally in
14 pre-indictment proceedings, and a captured person means somebody who was
15 taken prisoner during combat.
16 Q. The first category is subject to prosecution and the second
17 category, if not guilty of a crime, is subject to an exchange?
18 A. Can you rephrase? Of course, people who were deprived of liberty
19 were arrested in connection with a crime. Whether they are in custody or
20 are serving a sentence, they fall under the category of arrested persons,
21 detainees, and the other category are those captured in combat.
22 Q. And that would include also Serbs, if they were caught fighting
23 on the enemy side?
24 In my first question, could the interpreters make this
25 correction, I said "captured persons," not "convicts."
Page 5270
1 Now, as a member of the government, you maybe heard of this, the
2 Ministry of Health needed this information probably for the purposes of
3 the International Red Cross?
4 A. I don't know. Probably.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this be admitted, please?
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D475, Your Honours.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Can we now get 1D224. We won't dwell on it long. We just want
10 to see how the chief of the Security Services Centre passes a document or
11 an order on to public security stations.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. These terms may be confusing to foreigners, but a CSB covers
14 several municipalities?
15 A. Yes, that's a regional police centre, and public security
16 stations are municipal police stations.
17 Q. I don't know if we have a translation for these, but is this the
18 same document from the minister that Chief Zupljanin passes on to his
19 subordinates?
20 A. Yes. Yes, yes, you can see the text is the same.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the bottom of the page.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
23 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, a portion of 05607 has the translation
24 for this document as well as two other documents on the accused's list.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 5271
1 Can I tender this? If the Chamber needs the English translation,
2 I kindly ask for this to be displayed. But, in any case, let me point
3 out this is the same document, order issued by the minister, and that I
4 just wanted to show what the chief of the CSB is doing with this order.
5 JUDGE KWON: So it forms a series of forwarding the same order,
6 Mr. Mandic?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
9 We'll mark it for identification.
10 THE REGISTRAR: MFI
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think Mr. Tieger said we have
13 this translation, so it doesn't need to be MFI'd.
14 Can we get 1D261.
15 JUDGE KWON: We haven't checked whether we have a full
16 translation. When it is verified, we can admit it.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With your leave, and if there is no
18 objection from the Prosecution, I would like to show on the ELMO one of
19 my orders to the local civilian and municipal authorities that relates to
20 this topic. It's a standing order without any date, and nobody can say
21 that it's expired. This is, I think, a good time for Mr. Mandic to
22 identify this document, if we can put it on the ELMO.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Could you tell us what this instruction means? It was issued to
25 all the local police and civilian authorities.
Page 5272
1 A. I know this document. It's your order and instruction to all
2 local civilian and police authorities, which means local self-governments
3 in municipalities, in the police:
4 "Allow ICRC delegates to travel throughout the territory of
5 Bosnia and Herzegovina which is controlled by the Serbs. They are
6 authorised to visit any and all prisons, including military camps and
7 police stations under Serbian control. Therefore, all the troops of the
8 Serbian forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina are required by you to facilitate
9 the safe passage for ICRC delegates and vehicles. ICRC delegates shall
10 prove their identity by producing Red Cross IDs and displaying the emblem
11 of the Red Cross on their vehicles.
12 "B. All measures should be taken to ensure that the Red Cross
13 emblem is respected and to avoid any disturbance and/or attack on the
14 vehicles and staff of the ICRC. All information related to prisoners
15 should be provided and ICRC visits to prisons facilitated."
16 Q. Do you know, Minister, that we gave this to the representatives
17 of the ICRC and that they could show it along with their ID cards at any
18 check-point in order to be allowed to pass?
19 A. To the best of my recollection, this was used by them instead of
20 a pass. This was a pass, actually, for them.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 May it be admitted or marked for identification?
23 JUDGE KWON: Is there a date on this document? Can we see the
24 top part of it.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no date, Your Honours,
Page 5273
1 because it's a standing order.
2 JUDGE KWON: Do you remember when it was issued?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the early summer of 1992.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That will be marked for identification.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 May we have in e-court 65 ter 146. 146. Thank you.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Can you identify these minutes?
10 A. These are minutes from the session of the Presidency of
11 Republika Srpska of the 30th of November, 1992.
12 Q. And the agenda?
13 A. The agenda was:
14 "The question of a pardon for Elvir Kesadzic, prisoner in the
15 Manjaca camp; transfer of payments and financial transactions; report on
16 war crimes against the Serbian people in the former Bosnia and
17 Herzegovina
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. May we have page 3 of
19 this document, please. I believe it's also page 3 in English. AD-5 is
20 the passage we want.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. In Serbian, we'll probably have to move on to the next page, but
23 can you read where it says: "Commissioners and commissions ..."?
24 A. "Commissioners and commissions must be introduced --"
25 Oh, now it's gone.
Page 5274
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 3 back, please, in
2 Serbian.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Commissioners --"
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. In English, it begins with: "Commissioners and commissions ..."
6 Please go on.
7 A. "... must be introduced in areas where the civilian municipal
8 authority is not functioning. A commissioner must bear personal
9 responsibility. The question of army apartments and other property must
10 be systematically resolved. Also there were objections to the work of
11 the civilian authorities in the municipalities, and the conclusion was
12 personnel changes are required in cases where this is justified, it must
13 be made possible under the law to dismiss the municipal authorities."
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But we don't see this in English.
15 It's all in item 5 in English. We should put that back. It's the next
16 page in English. It's a new page.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. So you say:
19 "It is necessary to make it legally possible for municipal
20 authorities to be stripped of power."
21 Can we have page 4 in Serbian.
22 And while we are waiting for it to come up: Minister, is this
23 evidence that in late November, the government was fed up with the
24 self-will of the municipal authorities, or self-management, let me put it
25 that way, the vestiges of the old regime? Yes, yes, the Presidency
Page 5275
1 session, but this is probably at the request of the government.
2 A. Can you repeat your question, please?
3 Q. I simply wanted to ask you: Does this prove that in late
4 November, the Presidency, probably at the initiative of the government,
5 was dissatisfied with the way authority was passed down to municipal
6 level?
7 A. I think we were still in the process of setting up the government
8 authorities at that time, and that individual local authorities were out
9 of control still.
10 Q. Could you read and interpret page 4, please?
11 A. The issue of the role of deputies in those milieus in which they
12 were elected was raised again. A deputy must carry out or implement the
13 government authority in his area, and his work must be two-way between
14 the people and the authority.
15 Conclusion:
16 "The status, rights, duties, powers and personal responsibilities
17 of people's deputies must be regulated by special decision."
18 Q. Thank you. Does the Presidency here advocate influencing events
19 on the ground through the people's deputies, which implies that prior to
20 this, they did not have any influence on the ground?
21 A. Yes, in the areas from which they were elected.
22 Q. Is that how it was?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you also agree that the president did not have any authority
25 over deputies and could only ask them or appeal to them to act in this
Page 5276
1 way?
2 A. In a situation of an imminent threat of war, you had no legal
3 power over the deputies.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 May this document be admitted?
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D478, Your Honours.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 May we now have D92. It's already been admitted, but it's simply
10 to refresh our memories as to how, in late July, the situation regarding
11 minorities [Realtime transcript read in error "minors"] at Pale was
12 developing.
13 Can we now have page 16 in Serbian and page 21 in English.
14 JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting for that: Mr. Mandic, when was
15 it that you were sent to Belgrade
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In late 1992, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE KWON: How late in 1992?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the 23rd of November, when
19 Mr. Djeric resigned at the Assembly in Zvornik. So the date is the 23rd
20 of November. After that, I was informed that I would continue working in
21 Belgrade
22 JUDGE KWON: My question was whether you were in Bosnia
23 time of the previous Presidency meeting which we saw just now. It was
24 dated as 30th of November.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was in Bosnia at that time.
Page 5277
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 May we now look at the minutes of this session.
4 And it refers to minorities, not minors. I'm afraid that the
5 transcript says "minors" rather than "minorities," so it's about the
6 treatment of minorities.
7 And it says here:
8 "In Podrinje, the Muslims do not want peace, except in
9 Bijeljina."
10 In English, it says:
11 "The Serbs and others live freely there."
12 If you find the word "Podrinje" in the Serbian version -- can we
13 scroll down in Serbian?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is it page 16?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, page 16, [indiscernible].
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. "The Serbs and others live freely there."
18 We do have the text in English, but can we have the next page in
19 Serbian?
20 A. "I must say that, sadly, the Muslims in Podrinje do not want
21 peace, except in Bijeljina, in Pale, where they form 20 per cent of the
22 population, where nobody bothers them or considers them to be
23 second-class citizens. On the contrary, our government officials are
24 communicating with them to persuade them that they have nothing to fear.
25 Therefore, in Serb Bosnia and Herzegovina
Page 5278
1 their state, their freedom, and the state is big enough for all. I hope
2 that at this Assembly session, we shall come to some conclusions and
3 decisions to further strengthen this state."
4 Q. Do you recall that at Pale, the deputy prime minister -- the
5 vice-president of the republic, Mr. Koljevic, was always at the disposal
6 of the Muslims, whenever they wanted to come and talk to them, and that
7 he kept telling them that they need not be afraid even though some
8 Muslims elsewhere had killed their Serb neighbours?
9 A. I don't know that Mr. Koljevic spoke to them, but I do know for
10 certain that Malko Koroman, the chief of police at Pale, was very
11 concerned and very active in ensuring their safety and security.
12 Q. Thank you. Does it say here also that they were living
13 peacefully in Bijeljina, and that can be linked to the other document we
14 saw, stating that Muslims were actually returning to Bijeljina when
15 Mr. Panic and I called upon them to do so?
16 A. Yes. It's stated here that in Bijeljina, the Muslims were living
17 in peace.
18 Q. Can you tell Their Honours what Podrinje is and what it has to do
19 with the region of Birac?
20 A. Podrinje is a territory bordering with Serbia, along the Valley
21 of the River Drina, from Foca to Bijeljina, the towns are Zvornik,
22 Bratunac, Srebrenica, Ljubinje, Ljubija, Foca, Visegrad and others.
23 Q. Thank you. Do I say here that in Podrinje, they don't want
24 peace, except for Bijeljina, where they do want peace; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
Page 5279
1 Q. Do you agree that along the River Drina, there is a small town
2 called Janja, with a large Muslim community, and that it remained
3 peaceful throughout the war, and that there was never any combat there or
4 any fighting?
5 A. Janja had a majority Muslim population both before the war and
6 now. It's between Zvornik and Bijeljina, closer to Bijeljina.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. This is already in
8 evidence.
9 May we now have 1D2031.
10 JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting: Mr. Mandic, you didn't answer
11 the question by the accused as to the relation between the region of
12 Birac and Podrinje.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could he clarify the question? I
14 didn't understand.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Do you agree that Podrinje is a broader term and that part of it
17 is the region of Birac, which we will show on the map tomorrow?
18 A. Yes. When I was explaining where the territory of Podrinje
19 extends, it extends along the banks of the River Drina, from Foca to
20 Bijeljina, and there are all these towns on the banks of the River Drina,
21 Bijeljina, Janja, Zvornik, Bratunac, Srebrenica, Visegrad, Foca.
22 Q. And Gorazde; right?
23 A. Yes, and Gorazde, whereas Birac extends from Zvornik in the
24 direction of Sarajevo
25 Q. Also Bratunac and Srebrenica?
Page 5280
1 A. Yes, it covers parts of the municipalities of Bratunac and
2 Srebrenica. These are continental municipalities at the foot of
3 Mount Romanija
4 Q. Can you tell us about this document dated the 10th of September,
5 1992?
6 A. Here, you addressed the Main Staff of the Army of the Serb
7 Republic, and you consider that we do not have the right to reject Muslim
8 recruits and their desire to defend the Serbian Republic:
9 "Furthermore, we find their desire to fight against the Croatian
10 Ustasha, rather than on some other front, understandable.
11 "Therefore, please ensure the proper political conditions for
12 accepting these Muslim soldiers and treating them with dignity. Also, I
13 do not think it is advisable to form a separate Muslim unit, but rather
14 that they should be deployed in the existing units."
15 Q. Do you agree that this is my response to a confidential telegram
16 when the Main Staff asked me what they should do with those Muslims who
17 wanted to fight, and here I agreed to their being accepted; is that
18 right?
19 A. Mr. President, I am not aware of what the Main Staff of the Army
20 of Republika Srpska wrote to you, but I do know that on the territory of
21 Bijeljina, Janja, and Trebinje, there were soldiers in the Army of
22 Republika Srpska who were of Muslim ethnicity.
23 Q. I thought that separate units should not be established. But do
24 you know that in some areas like Srbac, they did want to have their own
25 unit, but until the end of the war they were part of our army?
Page 5281
1 A. I'm not aware of that. I don't know how units were established
2 and for how long they fought, but I do know that there were non-Serbs
3 fighting in the Army of Republika Srpska. That, I can confirm.
4 Q. Thank you. Can you also confirm there were also Croats who were
5 officers at Pale, who remained there throughout the war and are still
6 there to this day, living at Pale?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. I asked you about positive discrimination. Do you
9 agree that the Serbs had to respond to mobilisation, whereas Muslims and
10 Croats were not obliged to do so, and if they did respond, we did not put
11 them at lines where they would have to fight against their co-nationals,
12 people of the same ethnicity; rather, we put them on other lines,
13 because, as it says here, it was their desire -- it was their wish, which
14 we considered to be natural?
15 A. I'm not aware of that, Mr. President. The deployment of
16 non-Serbs in the Army of Republika Srpska is something I'm not familiar
17 with.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 May this be admitted?
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D479, Your Honours.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D365. We don't have
23 the Serbian version here.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. I show this to you because you will know how this agreement was
Page 5282
1 implemented. I will read it out in English:
2 [In English] "Between the Board of Deputies of British Jews and
3 the Presidency of the Serbian Republic
4 [No interpretation]:
5 [In English] "The Presidency of the Serbian Republic
6 whereby permission is given to enable those members of the Jewish
7 community living in Sarajevo
8 without any fear of harm, attack, or any other adverse consequence."
9 [Interpretation] And here we can see the other points.
10 May we have the last page, please. Thank you.
11 [In English] "It is further agreed that members of the Jewish
12 community who leave Sarajevo
13 reclaim their properties. Their homes will be sealed and protected from
14 invasion." [Interpretation] And this is signed in London
15 July, 1992.
16 Do you remember that the Sarajevo Jews left over our territory,
17 whereas in the Serbian Republic
18 A. I'm not aware of the way in which these Jews were allowed to pass
19 through the territory of Republika Srpska. This is the first time I have
20 seen this document.
21 Q. Well, we did not publicise this, we didn't advertise it. But do
22 you recall that Slovenes, Croats, and Muslims all left passing through
23 our territory, and do you remember that the candidate for the Presidency
24 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, representing others, was Mr. Ceresnjes, who was
25 the leader of the Jewish community in Sarajevo?
Page 5283
1 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
2 Q. Well, you didn't deal with politics, so we'll attend to this
3 through some other witness on some other occasion.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That's it for today.
5 As regards the time for cross-examination of the coming witness,
6 General Abdel-Razek, the Chamber has considered the following points:
7 first, the limited period of time covered by the anticipated testimony of
8 the witness, regarding broadly the same issues as the previous witness;
9 two, the small number of associated exhibits with a few pages only,
10 including some video material; third, the fact that the Prosecution
11 requested one hour for examination-in-chief; and, number 4, in particular
12 bearing in mind the fact that the witness can provide specific evidence
13 about meetings with the accused and other alleged JCE members, in
14 particular, Mrs. Biljana Plavsic and Nikola Koljevic.
15 So although Mr. Karadzic asked for 14 hours for his
16 cross-examination, the Chamber is of the view that a reasonable time for
17 cross-examination of this particular witness should not exceed five
18 hours.
19 I hope this will be of assistance in your planning.
20 We'll -- yes.
21 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 And I may have misspoke earlier, without factoring in all the
23 circumstances. So given the current circumstances, I can't think of an
24 objection on our part to the proposed schedule for Monday. And I may
25 have signaled otherwise, so I just wanted to make that clear.
Page 5284
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I --
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I learn until when I will be
4 here tomorrow so that I can arrange my travel?
5 JUDGE KWON: We allowed the accused to have a further two hours
6 tomorrow. That will be -- the first session will be closed -- will be
7 concluded at 10.30, and after which he will have a half-an-hour break and
8 he will have a further 30 minutes. So that means unless the Chamber --
9 any member of the Chamber has a question for you, you will be free to
10 leave around 11.30, at least before noon
11 Mr. Mandic.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE KWON: We'll resume at 9.00 tomorrow.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.33 p.m.
16 to be reconvened on Friday, the 16th day of July,
17 2010, at 9.00 a.m.
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