Page 8184
1 Wednesday, 20 October 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, everyone.
7 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 If I may be permitted a brief opportunity at some point during
10 the day, I thought perhaps immediately after the testimony of the current
11 witness concludes and before the next, but at whatever point the Court
12 deems convenient, to address MFI
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue your cross-examination.
15 WITNESS: BOGDAN VIDOVIC [Resumed]
16 [The witness answered through interpreter]
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Good afternoon to everyone.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Vidovic.
22 A. Good afternoon.
23 Q. If you agree, I would like to conclude the incident of the 19th
24 of June, which is number 8 on the F list.
25 Can we have, again, 1D02434.
Page 8185
1 While we are waiting: Mr. Vidovic, in the investigation of this
2 incident, you did perform some kind of measurement?
3 A. We collected the clues found on the spot. I don't remember us
4 doing any measurements. We may have.
5 Q. If you didn't do that, was that done by someone else?
6 A. Most probably, because there were a number of us present on the
7 site at the moment.
8 Q. We have to pause between questions and answers because we speak
9 the same language, whatever it is called.
10 This is a photograph that we saw yesterday. Why, then, are these
11 measurements not contained in the report?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Can you please look at the photograph. Yesterday, you determined
14 the direction of the shot towards the Vrbanja Bridge and Branimira Cosica
15 Street, and you agreed that this tree is obstructing the view. And can
16 you tell us, is it possible that the shot had come from Vraca or
17 Grbavica? Is there a line of sight?
18 A. No, not from this particular place. However, if you move a
19 little bit towards here, it may have been. But I don't know if the tree
20 was there at the time.
21 Q. If the tree wasn't there at the time, with respect to the
22 Assembly building, where Vraca is?
23 A. Approximately somewhere behind this tree. That's my opinion, as
24 far as I can orientate myself in the photograph.
25 Q. So is Vraca at Grbavica 1; you go down the Splitska Street?
Page 8186
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In other words, it would be more westerly over this building; is
3 that correct?
4 A. Well, looking at it diagonally over this tree, it would end at
5 Vraca.
6 Q. In that event, what would the trajectory of the shot be and what
7 effect would it have on the tram? Would it come at an acute angle from
8 the left side and to the front?
9 A. It depends where the tram was when it was hit. Since it was
10 moving, it is not possible to determine it now.
11 Q. But we did determine yesterday where the tram was, and we marked
12 that place?
13 A. Yes, we marked one portion of the tracks where we supposed it
14 was, because you can't see the whole intersection.
15 Q. Very well. Would you prefer to look at it on a map?
16 Can we please have now the map, and I'll give you a number
17 shortly. That's the one that we saw yesterday. It's D787.
18 It already contains a number of markings that would be helpful
19 for you to clarify this. Do you agree, Mr. Vidovic, that Vraca is
20 somewhere due south from the letter G, where it says "Grbavica," and the
21 shopping mall?
22 A. Roughly speaking, yes.
23 Q. Can you please put an arrow to mark this, and put the letter V?
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are not sure which letter the
25 accused said.
Page 8187
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You can use a red pencil.
2 A. [Marks]. Roughly speaking.
3 Q. So Vraca is in the continuation of this arrow. Can you please
4 now draw a line, a straight line, to the place where the incident took
5 place?
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Thank you. Can you please put the number 5 next to it?
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. And put the number 6 next to the arrow that indicates the
10 location of Vraca.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Do you agree, Mr. Vidovic, that in this case the shot would have
13 come at an acute angle of approximately 35 degrees at the front and from
14 the left?
15 A. Approximately, yes.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Can we have this admitted into evidence?
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. But did you mention any other possibility? Do you agree that
20 this trajectory would have crossed above all these buildings, even the
21 Executive Council building which is a high-rise building?
22 A. Well, now, judging by this map, I cannot tell you anything about
23 that. If we had had a photograph taken from Vraca, perhaps. But as it
24 is --
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 8188
1 Can we have this admitted into evidence as a separate exhibit?
2 JUDGE KWON: Let us do it again. Could you put the date and
3 signature again, kindly, Mr. Vidovic? 20th of October.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Use the same colour, the colour
5 black.
6 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
8 That will be admitted.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D789, Your Honours.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 09542.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Can we agree, Mr. Vidovic, that through one point, an infinite
13 number of lines can pass, whereas only one line can connect two dots?
14 A. I didn't understand you.
15 Q. How many straight lines can pass through one point or one spot?
16 A. Indefinite number.
17 Q. Now, how many straight lines can connect two dots?
18 A. One.
19 Q. That's correct. Did you have two benchmarks in the tram, in the
20 form of the bullet traces?
21 A. As far as I remember with it, one was on the metal sheet and the
22 other one was on the seat opposite.
23 Q. Do you agree that if you connect these two dots and if you extend
24 this line, you could arrive approximately at the point of the origin of
25 fire?
Page 8189
1 A. Yes.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid I didn't give you the
3 correct number. 09542. That's not the number. That should be a
4 photograph, and then we'll move to page 14.
5 THE REGISTRAR: This has been admitted as Exhibit P1758, Your
6 Honours.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was hoping that we have this in
8 colour and more light. We first need the photograph on the left, and it
9 has to be turned around.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Can you tell us what this photograph represents?
12 A. I can't see anything. I suppose that these white lines are the
13 tram windows, but other than that --
14 Q. But how did the investigation team mark this photograph?
15 A. I suppose that on the basis of what is written underneath, that
16 this is a photograph of the tram.
17 Q. Can you read what it says underneath?
18 A. "General view of the tram hit by a bullet fired from," it's not
19 very clear, "Grbavica-Vraca. The arrow indicates the point of impact of
20 the bullet."
21 Q. Are you familiar with this photograph?
22 A. As I already said, it's very unclear. I can only assume that
23 this is one of the photographs taken during the investigation.
24 Q. Who took these photographs?
25 A. I think I did.
Page 8190
1 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
2 Is the picture we are seeing on the English page the same
3 picture?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope that in English, it's
5 better. And if we have the appropriate page in English, can we look at
6 it?
7 JUDGE KWON: However, I'm not sure whether this is this identical
8 picture.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, that's a different picture.
10 We're going to call it up later.
11 JUDGE KWON: It looks like page 10 in English, but it does not
12 help either.
13 Mr. Gaynor, do you have an original colour picture of these?
14 MR. GAYNOR: We're trying to look into that right now.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You are right, it's page 10 in
17 English, but it's still not good.
18 JUDGE KWON: Let us move on, Mr. Karadzic. In the meantime,
19 we'll try to get a proper picture, if possible.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look now at the next page,
21 page 17, so that we can just have a quick look at the photograph that we
22 saw a minute ago. Page 17.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Is this the point of impact of a 7.62 bullet at the support of
25 the seat?
Page 8191
1 A. That's what it says, but everything is black. I can't discern
2 anything.
3 Q. But you will remember that these two traces of the bullet were
4 found and that it was possible, with a certain degree of precision, to
5 determine the direction, which was indicated in the photograph as
6 Branimira Cosica Street. Do you agree that nothing established and
7 determined here was beyond reasonable doubt?
8 A. I don't understand you.
9 Q. In this particular event, was it established beyond any doubt who
10 fired the shot and from where it came?
11 A. We established the direction.
12 Q. And you marked it?
13 A. Yes, we did.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we perhaps request that other
15 photographs be obtained for the proceedings, please.
16 JUDGE KWON: I have no doubt that Mr. Gaynor will look into the
17 matter.
18 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Mr. President.
19 65 ter 10496 contains a set of eight photographs which were
20 marked by this witness in court during his testimony in the Galic trial,
21 which may assist on this point.
22 JUDGE KWON: Shall we try.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps we need to turn it.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Is this the right position, Mr. Vidovic?
Page 8192
1 A. I think so. Yes, that should be the correct position.
2 Q. Do you agree that this is quite a regular circle that the bullet
3 made in the metal?
4 A. Yes, from what we can see on the photograph.
5 Q. So, then, the direction that you marked accords with this one.
6 The bullet would leave such a trace in the metal if its impact is at a
7 right angle; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Can we look at the photograph from page 14 now, the one that we
11 saw before this one, or from page 318 - these are the last ERN
12 digits - so that we can see the seat. I think this is page 7 of this
13 document with that ERN number, page 7.
14 JUDGE KWON: Of this document; yes?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
16 JUDGE KWON: It's upside down. Yes.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Is this the second trace of the bullet impact, the one that
19 struck the seat support?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. So we have two directions. One is along the
22 horizontal line; the other is along the vertical line. Along the
23 horizontal line, it came the way you marked it in blue. Along the
24 vertical line, could you indicate the height of these traces,
25 Mr. Vidovic, in relation to the floor?
Page 8193
1 A. I can just make an assumption here. I don't know when the
2 measurements were taken and what the measurements were, but on this seat
3 I would say that --
4 JUDGE KWON: Could you wait a minute. We have to turn the photo
5 again. And could you wait until the usher assists you.
6 Do you like the witness to mark something on the photo?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender these two
8 photographs, but I would like to establish the height on the metal and
9 the height on the seat, which will make it possible then to look at the
10 angle along the vertical line. Along the horizontal line, we established
11 that the bullet arrived at a right angle. The witness confirmed that.
12 Now we're talking about the vertical line.
13 Perhaps Mr. Vidovic could use the report in order to get some
14 help on this. If this is something that is mentioned in the report, then
15 we will use that.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if the measurements are
17 written there, then all right. But, approximately, we can see that it's
18 some 30 to 40 centimetres high from the floor of the tram.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. This is underneath the seat. This is the support, and you can
21 just see a little part of the seat?
22 A. Yes, this is correct, you can only see a small part of the seat.
23 Q. So if we knew the height of the bullet on the support, then we
24 could tell whether it was coming from above to below or from below up,
25 and then we can establish the angle. Was this established in this case?
Page 8194
1 A. No. As far as I can remember, this is not mentioned in my
2 report.
3 Q. And can you look at the impact of the bullet, the dent? Does
4 that indicate that the friction at the lower edge was a bit deeper and
5 that the bullet came from below? The upper edge is more steep, so the
6 bullet came from the bottom and impacted more along the bottom, the lower
7 edge of the indent; is that correct?
8 A. Well, that doesn't have to indicate anything in this case,
9 because on the other side it passed through the metal. So you cannot
10 really establish the rest of the trajectory. It ricochetted from the
11 metal when it came in.
12 Q. So that means that if it was ricochetted higher, its point of
13 impact on the metal was probably lower, and if this had changed once it
14 had gone through the metal, then it probably impacted the metal lower, at
15 its entrance point?
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer.
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Vidovic --
18 THE INTERPRETER: The witness and the accused are kindly asked to
19 pause between question and answer. Thank you.
20 JUDGE KWON: It's easy to forget that because what you are
21 answering should be translated into English, so it's important for you,
22 both of you, to put a pause between the question and answer, and slow
23 down.
24 The last of your answer was not translated, so if you could
25 kindly repeat your answer, Mr. Vidovic.
Page 8195
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's like this: I said that
2 the bullet entered at the level of the heating grill of the tram, which
3 in this photograph is marked with a blue circle, and it's located on the
4 opposite side from the seat. So according to what is here, the bullet
5 came, and here it already lost some of its height when it hit the seat.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Q. Was this bullet found?
8 A. It was found at the bottom part of the photograph. You can see a
9 part of the number that was used to mark the bullet.
10 Q. Could you please mark that with an arrow, because I am not able
11 to see that.
12 JUDGE KWON: Before you mark it --
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, perhaps it can be seen on
14 the following photograph.
15 Can we admit this, and then can we move to the next photograph,
16 because that's -- it's better -- we will be able to see better on the
17 next photograph.
18 JUDGE KWON: If necessary, and I'm not opposed to -- we can admit
19 the whole set of this document, eight pictures. Are they already in
20 evidence?
21 THE REGISTRAR: They are in evidence as Exhibit P1759, Your
22 Honours.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In this case; is that correct? All
24 right. I don't know that it was shown before, but I didn't propose it
25 for admission deliberately again.
Page 8196
1 Can we look at the following photograph. Can we turn it around.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. And this is where the number 1 marks the place where the bullet
4 was found?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What kind of a bullet is it?
7 A. According to my report, it's a 7.62-calibre shell casing.
8 Q. Mr. Vidovic, did you choose between the option that it was a
9 deliberate strike on the tram or just an accidental strike? Did you
10 express an opinion about that?
11 A. No.
12 Q. So is it possible that it could have been either deliberate or
13 accidental; both options are possible? Is that possible?
14 A. When you ask me in that way, then, yes, it can be either
15 deliberate or accidental.
16 Q. Very well. And do you agree that sniper ammunition in our area
17 uses different types of calibre in both armies, both the Bosnian Army and
18 the JNA?
19 A. In the JNA, the calibre was 7.9 millimetres, but I really don't
20 know who used what at that time. There were all sorts of weapons.
21 Q. Thank you. Who drafted the final report? Who signed the final
22 report?
23 A. I really don't remember. It's probably one of my colleagues from
24 the Criminal Investigation Unit, but I don't remember all of those who
25 took part in the investigation.
Page 8197
1 Q. And how was it that they said that the bullet disintegrated or
2 was fragmented, and we can see here that there is a bullet?
3 A. You can see fragments of a bullet here.
4 Q. All right, Mr. Vidovic, thank you very much. Were these
5 fragments large enough in order to be able to establish the calibre?
6 A. Well, ballistics experts can establish the calibre on the basis
7 of those fragments. I mean, they were probably of a sufficient size,
8 since the calibre was established.
9 Q. Who was the ballistics expert in the team?
10 A. I really don't remember. I think it was Boro Stankov. I'm not
11 sure.
12 Q. Thank you. Now I would like you to focus on a different incident
13 in the investigation of which you also took part.
14 We can put the photograph away now.
15 Do you recall the incident that occurred on the 14th of February,
16 1995, at 1722 hours, the tram, tram number 212; do you recall that?
17 A. If you could show me some photographs, if you have any, that
18 would help, but I think that I do remember.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 10510, please. This
20 is a 65 ter number, 10510. This is the cover page of the set of
21 photographs that bears your signature. That is bound to remind you of
22 the incident.
23 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit P1748, Your Honours.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 8, please.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 8198
1 Q. Is it easier for you to remember this now?
2 A. Yes, I think I know what this is about.
3 Q. Thank you. You were a criminal investigations technician at the
4 on-site investigation, and you signed this set of photographs; is that
5 correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Can we look at page 6.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Now, in this report from the on-scene investigation, you said
11 that the damage was 18 times 15 millimetres on the glass of the window
12 behind the driver; is that correct? Do you remember if that was the
13 fifth window, counting backwards from the driver?
14 A. Yes, that's what it says in the report.
15 Q. Do you remember that this entry location of the bullet was 16
16 centimetres from the floor of the tram; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, that's what it says in the report.
18 Q. Sixty-one centimetres from the left-hand glass?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And nine centimetres from the lower edge of the window?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So do you agree that now we have some elements in order to set up
23 a kind of triangle which would include all of these elements that you
24 have just referred to?
25 A. Yes.
Page 8199
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we now look at page 13 of
2 this document.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. We will show you the photograph later, but would you agree that
5 it says here that the injured passenger, Buljubasic, was sitting on the
6 third double seat going back from the driver on the right-hand side? Is
7 that correct?
8 A. Yes. I didn't see whether it says the right-hand side.
9 Actually, according to this, it's the left side.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we bring back the previous page
11 we were looking at, page 6, so that we can look at the text in the
12 Serbian, so that Mr. Vidovic can check again the location.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was sitting on the right-hand
14 chair.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Which row from the driver?
17 A. Third double row -- double seat back from the driver.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Can we now look at page 13, where there is a photograph. We
20 actually looked at it just a little bit earlier.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Is this the photo that you made for the purposes of this
23 investigation report?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And it shows, what, the place where the bullet entered?
Page 8200
1 A. Yes, and it's marked with number 1, as you can also see, because
2 there's a point indicating that.
3 Q. Thank you. So this is nine centimetres from the edge of the
4 window, from the lower edge; correct?
5 A. Well, I assume so, according to the report, although you can't
6 really see it here in this photo. You can't see the hole where the
7 bullet came in; not on this photo, in any case.
8 Q. But I'm sure that, as in the previous case, there must be
9 photographs that are somewhat easier to look at.
10 Now, would you agree with me that the seat, the seat -- the back
11 of the seat, is actually higher than the edge of the window?
12 A. Well, if we looked from this perspective, and judging by this
13 arrow, I wouldn't really think so.
14 Q. Well, but if we were to look at this from a right angle, from the
15 perpendicular perspective, it would be even clearer, whereas from here we
16 see it from the bird's-eye view, and you can still see that it's a bit
17 higher than the window edge?
18 A. Well, no, I wouldn't agree with that.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, then I would really
20 appreciate getting a better photo.
21 JUDGE KWON: Do we have them, Mr. Gaynor?
22 MR. GAYNOR: I don't believe we have better photos of this,
23 Mr. President. We'll certainly look into the matter and submit them if
24 we find them.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 8201
1 Can we then have 1D2614. 1D2614.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Do you agree that this photo was taken from the upper --
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the last
5 word.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean from up higher?
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Well, you're a photographer. You should know what "recourse"
9 means.
10 A. Well, no, I don't.
11 Q. Well, here it is. Now we can see it better.
12 A. Well, again, this is not very clear.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the last set of questions and answers
14 were not properly translated.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Well, as for the angle under which this photo was taken, this
17 photograph was not taken either from a horizontal perspective or from
18 below. It was actually taken from a slightly higher position; for
19 instance, from a standing position. Correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And from that standing position, one can see that the edge of the
22 window -- of the seat -- of the back of the seat is actually higher than
23 the edge of the window; is that correct?
24 A. Well, no, I don't really see that.
25 Q. Very well. Tell us, then, is the entry point of this bullet
Page 8202
1 properly marked?
2 A. Well, I'm sure it is. But, again, I have to say that based on
3 this photo, I can't really determine that because there is so many of
4 these little dots that I really can't discern which one it is.
5 Q. But would you agree that from the edge of the window to the entry
6 point, the -- according to your measurements, the distance was nine
7 centimetres?
8 A. Yes. However, I don't know what you mean by -- in other words,
9 in this photograph, the lower yellow or golden arrow point, that is the
10 lower edge, and then there is a portion of rubber there, and then only
11 begins the window-pane.
12 Q. But how did you do the measurements? Where did you begin?
13 A. Well, from the rubber edge.
14 Q. Well, maybe we can have a better photo. Now, did you actually
15 mark this?
16 A. No, as far as I can recall, it wasn't me.
17 Q. Was there any kind of trace on the back of the seat, a bullet
18 trace?
19 A. No, I don't recall that. I believe not.
20 Q. In other words, the bullet impacted the window at a height of 86
21 centimetres from the ground; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And then if we were to take off these nine centimetres from those
24 eighty-six, what, then, would be the height of the window edge?
25 A. Seventy-three.
Page 8203
1 Q. Well, I would say 77.
2 A. Yes, I'm sorry, 77.
3 Q. But you can see that the back of the seat is some 80 centimetres
4 from the floor. Did you measure that?
5 A. I don't know how high the tip of the seat of -- of the back of
6 the seat is from the floor.
7 Q. Well, do you consider that important in view of the fact that you
8 measured the height of the edge of the window and there is another object
9 here that can serve as -- to measure, and how come did you not measure
10 that?
11 A. Well, probably because there was not any damage on it, so that's
12 probably why we didn't measure the height of that item.
13 Q. In that event, that would mean that the bullet had the trajectory
14 between the seat -- the back of the seat and the point that you marked
15 here; correct?
16 A. I don't think I understand your question. Based on what we can
17 see here, the bullet actually -- its path was above the seat.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.
19 I would like to tender this photograph.
20 JUDGE KWON: I don't think we can admit this. This is a picture
21 marked by the Defence team, and the witness did not confirm as to the gap
22 between the edge of the table and the window. So you'll have another
23 opportunity to tender this.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Let us now establish the following: The place where the wounded
Page 8204
1 person was, were there any traces, bullet traces, on the back of the seat
2 where the wounded was sitting?
3 A. Well, I think I've already said that. If you mean whether the
4 seat was grazed or in any other way there was a defect, no.
5 Q. But he wasn't sitting at this seat; right? He was sitting --
6 this window is actually in line with the fifth seat from behind the
7 driver, whereas he was sitting at the third seat behind the driver;
8 correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the question.
11 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the interpreters couldn't hear your
13 last question.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Did the wounded person sit in the seat that we can see here in
16 this photo? Was he sitting there?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Or was this a different seat?
19 A. This is the seat closer to us, the seat in close-up, as it were,
20 in the foreground. That's where he was sitting.
21 Q. In the foreground?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, where was Buljubasic wounded, what part of the body?
24 A. I don't know, but I think that it's noted in the report exactly.
25 I did not have enough time to read it through a moment ago.
Page 8205
1 Q. Do you agree, then, that the wound was somewhere about 80
2 centimetres from the floor?
3 A. Well, I really can't say that. I was not on the site when it
4 happened, so the wounded --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The wounded person
6 was not there, so I wouldn't know.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Well, we have this information. Eighty-six centimetres from the
9 floor there is a bullet hole in the window-pane, so that's eighty-six
10 centimetres from the floor of the tram and nine centimetres up the edge
11 of the window. Where, then, is the second point that can help us
12 determine the angle of incidence of this bullet?
13 A. Well, on the body of the wounded person.
14 Q. At what height?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Is it still your position that the wounded person was wounded in
17 some part of the body that is above the seat, the back of the seat?
18 A. Well, I assume so, but these -- especially because these backs of
19 the seats are not very tall, and a person of a normal height would -- it
20 would go halfway up their back.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Can we now have the photo on page 14.
23 JUDGE KWON: Page 14 of what; the previous exhibit, P1748?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of this exhibit, yes. 274 are the
25 last three digits. 10510, and then page 14 of that document. I believe
Page 8206
1 that's the same number as the previous photo.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Is this a photo that you made as well?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. From the point of impact on the window-pane to the point where
6 the entry wound was on the body of the wounded person, is it your claim
7 that the place where the wounded person was sitting was parallel to this
8 window; correct?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. But if he was sitting in the third row behind the driver, then
11 there is a difference of some seven rows, or, rather, a difference of
12 some 4.2 metres to 5 metres. So would you agree with me that this was
13 the fifth window-pane and the third row from behind the driver, which
14 would indicate that there was a shift in the -- or, rather, that there
15 was a trajectory -- that the bullet travelled some four to five metres
16 through the tram; correct?
17 A. Well, I don't really know. It's not quite clear.
18 Q. The fifth window-pane in the tram is in line with the tenth row
19 of seats, and the wounded person sat or was sitting in the third row, so
20 there are seven rows in between. In other words, the fifth
21 window-pane -- each window-pane is in line with two rows, so that the
22 fifth window-pane is actually in line with the tenth row of the seats, so
23 the wounded person was actually sitting in the first half of the third --
24 of the second window-pane?
25 A. I really don't know that.
Page 8207
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecutor please provide
2 a hard copy of this on-site investigation report so that the witness can
3 look at the screen and at the same time be able to refresh his memory?
4 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, I do -- I do have a hard copy of that.
5 JUDGE KWON: If it can be provided to the witness.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we get a copy too, please.
7 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure it's for the Prosecution to provide a
8 print-out of the exhibit which is in the e-court. I think you've been
9 provided with this exhibit a long time ago. But I think, if necessary,
10 the Registry may help you by printing it out, on an exceptional basis.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have P1759, the sixth
12 photograph.
13 Your Excellency, I agree with you, but the e-court materials that
14 we have received are useless. As you can see, we cannot really see
15 anything on them.
16 Witness, please use the hard copy. You're free to do that.
17 So could we have, please, P1759, that photo.
18 JUDGE KWON: I take it that what the Prosecution has is identical
19 to what you have. Is that not the case, Mr. Gaynor?
20 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, that is the case, and these are, after all,
21 exhibits from the witness's previous evidence, so simply taken from that
22 trial and provided to Mr. Karadzic.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Would you please look at this photograph. How many rows of seats
Page 8208
1 can you see if you look at one window-pane?
2 A. Two, according to this photo and this window-pane, because this
3 first seat is a single seat and the one before it is a double seat.
4 Q. Thank you. So the fifth window-pane is the window-pane through
5 which the bullet -- where the bullet impacted; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, according to the report.
7 Q. So the fifth window-pane would actually be in line with the ninth
8 and tenth rows of seats; correct?
9 A. Well, I can't really say off the top of my head. But based on
10 the calculation and the numbers, yes.
11 Q. Now, the third row of seats on the right-hand side of the tram is
12 far forward of the spot where the bullet impacted the tram; correct?
13 A. Yes. Well, again, judging by -- or proceeding from your
14 calculations, yes.
15 Q. Thank you. Would you agree, then, that at that distance of some
16 4.2 to 4.9 metres, the angle of fall or the angle of incidence was less
17 than 1 degree?
18 A. Well, not quite.
19 Q. Well, what would the angle be, then?
20 A. I really couldn't tell you accurately.
21 Q. Well, let me remind you. The entry point at the window is above
22 the seat, and it is nine centimetres up of the edge of the seat. The
23 place where Mr. Buljubasic was wounded was above the tip of the back of
24 the seat, because there is no bullet trace on the seat. So would you
25 agree with me that the trajectory of this bullet was almost horizontal?
Page 8209
1 A. Well, if you look at it that way, yes. But I still cannot tell
2 you exactly where the seat was, not judging by this photograph, because
3 there is also some room behind the driver before the first row of seats.
4 And how many windows exactly there are, I don't know.
5 Q. We are not concerned about the rear end. From the point of entry
6 of the bullet, there are five windows, and the fifth window was hit?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So the bullet was travelling between the tenth row and the third
9 row, covering seven rows before it hit Mr. Buljubasic sitting in the
10 third row behind the driver; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, the entry point of the bullet is above the lower edge of the
13 window and above the seat, and Mr. Buljubasic was hit in the back, above
14 the top end of the back of the seat?
15 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. We didn't hear the answer of the
16 witness.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Can we have, again, the photograph 10510, page 14.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. We have enlarged your photograph a bit. Do you agree that this
23 circle indicates that the bullet entered through the window, through the
24 glass, at an acute angle?
25 A. I couldn't be able to say that.
Page 8210
1 Q. Can I be of help? Are the radiuses equal or is one longer?
2 A. I don't know what I can tell you on the basis of this.
3 Q. Tell me, the diametre of this hole, the horizontal one, is it
4 longer than the vertical one?
5 A. Judging by this photocopy, I wouldn't say so.
6 Q. But this is a photograph you made. Does the pattern of the
7 shattering of the glass indicate that this was an acute angle rather than
8 a right angle? Does it indicate that the bullet entered at an angle, in
9 fact?
10 A. No, not to me.
11 Q. Are you trying to say that the bullet entered at the angle of 90
12 degrees?
13 A. Probably not 90 degrees, but --
14 Q. Can you please use the red pen to mark coordinates on this
15 photograph, i.e., the horizontal axis and the vertical axis of the bullet
16 hole?
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
18 MR. GAYNOR: I believe the witness's previous answer was not
19 fully interpreted. He did continue to speak while Mr. Karadzic asked the
20 next question.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes. All we heard, Mr. Vidovic, is:
22 "Probably not 90 degrees, but --"
23 The interpretation stopped there. Could you repeat your answer,
24 please?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
Page 8211
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Maybe it would be helpful if I
2 repeat my questions.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Are you trying to say this bullet entered through the window at a
5 90-degree angle?
6 A. No. It is possible, everything is possible. But based on this
7 photocopy of the photograph, I can't say anything definitely.
8 Q. But can you rely on your investigation reports that you have with
9 you?
10 A. I'm looking at it, but there's no angle mentioned here because I
11 didn't do the ballistic expert analysis.
12 Q. Can you please take a red pencil and draw coordinates, an X-axis
13 and a Y axis? And then after, that we shall see whether there's a
14 difference between the length of the two.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Mr. Vidovic, you didn't put it exactly in the center, as you
17 should.
18 A. Well, it's difficult for me.
19 Q. I think that everybody can see that the horizontal one is longer.
20 If they were to intersect at the center, it would be obvious that the
21 horizontal one was longer?
22 A. Well, to me they seem identical, but it is possible that the
23 horizontal axis is the longer one.
24 Q. Thank you. Can you please put the date and your initials on this
25 photograph?
Page 8212
1 A. [Marks]
2 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, the entire exercise seems to be a
3 complete waste of time. It's entirely up to Your Honours' discretion,
4 obviously.
5 JUDGE KWON: This is not a scheduled incident.
6 MR. GAYNOR: That's correct, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, whether it's a scheduled incident
8 or not, I'm amused at what conceivable use this exercise has been. I've
9 been waiting to see whether or not there was something that I was failing
10 to spot, but I don't think there is.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this is how it's going to be
12 useful: It's an incident that was included by the Prosecution through
13 this witness, although it's not contained in the indictment. They had a
14 valid reason to do that, because they wanted to demonstrate that there
15 was a pattern. We wanted to take this example to prove that everything
16 was different. Regardless of the fact that it's not in the indictment,
17 the Chamber will gain certain impressions from this.
18 Now, let's expedite matters.
19 Can this photograph be admitted into evidence? And after that, I
20 would like to call up 1D2615.
21 JUDGE KWON: What the Chamber wanted to tell you is that,
22 Mr. Karadzic, you can argue that horizontal line is longer than the
23 vertical line without asking the witness to draw this -- have this
24 unhelpful cross on this photo, which is not helpful at all. So this is a
25 waste of time.
Page 8213
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Can it be admitted?
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D790, Your Honours.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Can we now have 1D2615.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Please, Mr. Vidovic, look at this photograph, the number of
7 windows and the number of seats. And can you approximately mark where
8 the third row was?
9 1D2615.
10 Do you see where the driver is?
11 JUDGE KWON: Before you do that: Mr. Vidovic, is this the same
12 tram that was used at the time?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it isn't.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Is it considerably different? Are all the trams of approximately
16 the same size?
17 A. No. As far as I know, every tram is different. It depends on
18 the manufacturer, it depends on the model. I even don't know where this
19 tram was photographed. Not at Sarajevo
20 Q. But on the previous photograph, we see that there are two rows of
21 windows -- two rows of seats next to one window?
22 A. Yes, in this section of the tram.
23 Q. All we are interested in now is the distance between the driver
24 and the third row of seats, and the distance between the third and the
25 tenth rows, where the bullet entered. Can you mark these distances on
Page 8214
1 this photograph?
2 JUDGE KWON: I won't allow it unless it is suggested that the
3 tram is of a similar kind to the one that was used at the time. I
4 recommend you to move on.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I have to ask the
6 witness to show us the trajectory of the bullet from the point of entry
7 until the point of wounding the witness. We cannot do otherwise. The
8 material is insufficient. We tried to establish that the bullet entered
9 through the fifth window and hit the man in the third row which is next
10 to --
11 JUDGE KWON: You can make a submission to that effect when you
12 make a final submission, but this witness is not able to confirm what you
13 are saying at this moment.
14 So I suggest having a break now for 25 minutes, after which you
15 will have half an hour to conclude your cross-examination, Mr. Karadzic.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can't make it in half an hour.
17 We have a witness here who conducted investigations. Who am I going to
18 clarify these matters with, other than him?
19 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber gave you two hours, and we made it clear
20 that your time would be limited to two hours. And I emphasised several
21 times that you have to prioritise your questioning, and as indicated by
22 the Chamber, you wasted a lot of time.
23 We'll take a break, and think about your planning again.
24 Twenty-five minutes.
25 [The witness stands down]
Page 8215
1 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 I have to say that the OTP had a very good reason to introduce a
6 number of incidents through this witness that are not covered by the
7 indictment. Why? Because they cannot build their case on individual
8 incidents, so they are attempting to establish a pattern. And I can only
9 be grateful to them for introducing these incidents, because if I am
10 given more than 20 minutes per incident, I can show that there is a
11 pattern of behaviour by the Muslim side in order to blame us. They were
12 playing games with angles and with cardinal directions. And if I don't
13 have more than 20 minutes per incident, that in every other country would
14 be subject to three or four days in court, I don't have a proper
15 opportunity to defend myself. The OTP had their reasons, their valid
16 reasons, for introducing these materials. Therefore, I'm asking for your
17 understanding. I may do it more quickly.
18 This witness conducted investigations, and I can demonstrate that
19 the angles will prove that the shots could not have come from the Serbian
20 side, and this witness can confirm that because he was the one who made
21 the sketches and who investigated this. I cannot bring any other witness
22 of that calibre.
23 Therefore, I understand that this is your policy, but I am kindly
24 asking for your understanding. That's the only way that I can defend
25 myself and I can defend the Serbian cause, because I know that there was
Page 8216
1 not a single civilian target subjected to sniping or shelling.
2 JUDGE KWON: What the Chamber wanted to tell you, Mr. Karadzic,
3 was that when a witness is not able to answer all your questions to the
4 effect you want, you don't have to put every point of your case to the
5 witness. Just put your case, and then you can move on to other topics.
6 But you are trying to put every point to every witness, which the Court
7 finds unhelpful.
8 So how many more minutes would you need to conclude your
9 cross-examination for this witness?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With this incident, I'm going to
11 finish quickly because the witness cannot provide any more answers, so I
12 have three more incidents in total. Therefore, I would need at least an
13 hour for the witness to demonstrate what he participated in.
14 Six incidents have been introduced through this witness. One of
15 them is in the indictment, and the remaining five serve the purpose of
16 establishing that there was a pattern of behaviour pursued by the Serbian
17 side.
18 JUDGE KWON: Were there not two scheduled incidents? I should
19 stand corrected if I'm wrong.
20 MR. ROBINSON: Actually, Mr. President, I made the same mistake.
21 There's one incident of shelling on the 16th of June that I thought was
22 also scheduled, because there's two scheduled incidents on that date, but
23 apparently this is not -- this is a third incident that's not scheduled.
24 So there's only one scheduled incident.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
Page 8217
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE KWON: Very well. You will have an hour, Mr. Karadzic.
3 Let's bring in the witness.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 JUDGE KWON: While we have that picture in front of us, is it not
6 a Dutch tram, Mr. Karadzic?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but the ratio is the same,
8 except for the window being lower. Since I am not proving here the
9 vertical angle, but the horizontal angle, then this could be used as an
10 example, because two rows of seats are covered by one window.
11 JUDGE KWON: I take it to be the number 17.
12 Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
13 MR. GAYNOR: Yes. I probably don't need to say this, but there's
14 absolutely no evidence on the record to show that this specific model --
15 the dimensions of this model have anything in common with the dimensions
16 of the trams in Sarajevo
17 JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting for the witness, shall I give
18 a -- shall I issue an oral ruling in relation to Witness 166? Oh, he's
19 coming. We'll do that during the interval [Realtime transcript read in
20 error "in turn"].
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE KWON: I said we'll do that during the interval.
23 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Q. Mr. Vidovic, we are going to finish with this incident quickly.
Page 8218
1 Can we look at 1D2618, please.
2 And while we're waiting: Mr. Vidovic, the main thing that I
3 would like to establish here in this incident is whether you've seen in
4 your report -- or said in your report that the bullet entered at the
5 fifth window and hit the man in the back who was sitting in the third
6 row.
7 A. Yes.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We've taken this particular tram
9 because of the distribution of the rows, not because of the height of the
10 windows.
11 JUDGE KWON: We made it clear. Move on to your next topic. This
12 is of no help at all.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
14 Q. In this case, did you make the determination that this came from
15 the Serbian side?
16 A. Only that we established the direction that it came from.
17 Q. In order to establish the direction, is it important to know the
18 angle?
19 A. In this case, we did not take the angle into account; only the
20 entrance damage to the tram.
21 Q. How were you able to set the two points on the basis of which you
22 could determine the direction? On the basis of which did you
23 determine -- what did you determine where the tram came from?
24 A. Only on the basis of the damage that we found on the tram.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D2619, please.
Page 8219
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. So this vertex height of the triangle, is that the place where
3 the tram was hit?
4 A. Yes, I assume so. That's how it should be.
5 Q. I would like you to mark that place, please. And if you could
6 make an arrow, and mark the arrow with the number 1.
7 JUDGE KWON: It is there. I don't see any need to ask the
8 witness to mark on the map. Put your question, Mr. Karadzic.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 Q. Do you know where the line of separation is here on the left bank
11 of the Miljacka River
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. You see the street of Hamdija Cemerlic. That is the street
15 where --
16 JUDGE KWON: That question was asked yesterday. Just put your
17 question in relation to this document.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Vidovic, if this angle were greater or smaller, where would
20 the fire come from?
21 A. I really don't understand. We generally have the direction. On
22 the basis of the report, we establish the direction where the bullet came
23 from. As for the angle or the height, we have the side where the bullet
24 came from, but I cannot speak about the height.
25 Q. And did your investigation team establish that it's approximately
Page 8220
1 18 degrees? You can look at it in the report.
2 A. That is not stated in my report.
3 Q. Are you able to draw the direction here?
4 JUDGE KWON: Could you wait a minute.
5 Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
6 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, I'm concerned that the record is
7 going to become very confused, because the location of the tram, the
8 angle of 17.63 degrees, the point marked "Hypothetical point of firing,"
9 have all been placed there by a member of the Defence team for
10 Mr. Karadzic for the purposes of these proceedings, I assume. And if the
11 witness is now going to mark that, the record is going to become
12 confusing.
13 JUDGE KWON: We have a clean copy of this map, without these
14 markings, which is --
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We do. This is 2581, 2581.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Why don't we bring that up.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2581.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Could you mark the place where the tram was
19 hit, and circle it, and put number 1 there.
20 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
21 JUDGE KWON: And for you, Mr. Karadzic, to continue.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Vidovic, could you be a little bit more precise? This would
24 be an area of 100 or 200 metres, wouldn't it? We need to be more precise
25 in relation to the incident location.
Page 8221
1 A. Well, since the tram was moving, it's not possible to be precise.
2 Q. How can we then be precise and say that the bullet came from the
3 Serbian side?
4 A. As I said, in my report, all it states is the direction where the
5 fire came from.
6 Q. Can you indicate that direction on the map, please?
7 A. Well, it would be approximately like this [marks].
8 Q. And now can you look at the base of the triangle. That would be
9 the route of the tram. So could you indicate, with one line, the
10 possible direction that the shot came from? Since the tram has its own
11 route, that would form the base of the triangle?
12 A. Well, it would be something like this [marks]. So more or less,
13 that would be this direction here [indicating].
14 Q. And how many possible entry angles would you have here; from
15 close to 90 to how much?
16 A. Well, I really don't know.
17 Q. And who is controlling the territory that lies at where the base
18 of the triangle lies?
19 A. I don't understand what the base of the triangle is.
20 Q. Well, this part that lies along the Miljacka River
21 high-rise buildings could the shot have been fired from?
22 A. Well, these buildings here in the area called "Shopping."
23 Q. And who controlled the area of "Shopping"?
24 A. The Serbian side.
25 Q. Can you please mark that?
Page 8222
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. And these high-rise buildings in the "Shopping," the angle would
3 have to be 90 degrees, would it not?
4 A. No, it would not.
5 Q. Could you please shade the area where the possible fire could
6 have come from, and can you indicate the approximate angle?
7 A. I'm sorry, I don't really understand what it is exactly that I'm
8 supposed to do. Shade what?
9 Q. You have two sides of the triangle here, and the third would be
10 the line of the base of the triangle, and this is how you indicated the
11 area where the tram could possibly have been hit if the fire came from
12 the direction that you indicated. So can you shade that as the field of
13 the possible trajectory?
14 A. Are we talking about the circle here or the triangle?
15 Q. The triangle.
16 A. All right, then it's like this [marks].
17 Q. Thank you. And now can you please tell us, did the bullet come
18 from the front or did it come from the back to the front?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Well, you know it entered at the fifth window and hit the third
21 row of seats?
22 A. Yes. But, again, we didn't establish what the tram looks like
23 from the inside, so I'm not able to tell you anything about it.
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Vidovic, I have difficulty understanding the
25 meaning of the shaded part. Could you tell us what your understanding is
Page 8223
1 as to that shaded part?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, actually, to tell you the
3 truth, I'm not quite clear what it indicates either. I just did what
4 Mr. Karadzic asked me to do.
5 JUDGE KWON: Let me be clear about this. You said what you
6 established at the time is the direction of fire, not the potential
7 possible origin of the fire?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.
9 JUDGE KWON: And you indicated that direction you established at
10 the time with an arrow --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE KWON: -- which we see on the left side. Then the line on
13 the right side does not match with the direction you established at the
14 time. Am I correct in so understanding?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean this other line? Yes.
16 Mr. Karadzic asked me to draw the triangle, where the apex would be
17 here [indicates], so I just drew an approximate triangle and indicated
18 the possible -- the direction the bullet was coming from that hit the
19 tram with an arrow. And the tram was moving in this area that I
20 indicated with the number 1.
21 JUDGE KWON: I take it that Mr. Karadzic asked you to draw that
22 line on the assumption that the fire was originating from the shopping
23 area -- high-rise building in the shopping area. Was that the fact that
24 you established at the time?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me say it again. We did not
Page 8224
1 establish exactly the place from where the bullet was fired. We just
2 established the direction from where it came, and we indicated that with
3 the arrow, and that was from the direction of the south-east.
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. May I be of assistance. Mr. Vidovic, I asked you to say at which
7 section of the rail could the tram have been hit, and I wanted to see how
8 it was that you established that the base of the triangle was at the
9 shopping city area, because the base of the triangle should be the
10 section of the rail where the tram should have been hit. This is very
11 important for us to be able to establish where the fire came from, once
12 we establish where the tram actually was. Without that, we don't have
13 the angle. And I'm saying that we cannot have an angle that is greater
14 than 13.4. What do you say to that?
15 A. Again, I say we just established the direction from where the
16 bullet came, and not the precise place from which it was fired.
17 Q. The bullet came from the south; is that correct?
18 A. According to this, from the south-south-east.
19 Q. Thank you. Could it have come from someplace that was not under
20 the control of the Serbs? Did you indicate which side fired?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Thank you. And this base of the triangle, which should be in
23 this circle, the base indicating where the tram could have been hit from
24 point A to point B, would that help to establish the direction, that
25 position plus the angle? Could that be used to establish the angle?
Page 8225
1 A. Well, we could indicate that by drawing it on the map on the
2 basis of the drawing.
3 Q. Did anyone know the precise place where the tram was hit? Can
4 you read in your report exactly the position of the tram? Opposite from
5 which building was it located when it was hit?
6 A. All it says is that the tram was moving along the Zmaja od Bosne
7 Street.
8 Q. And where was it hit?
9 A. The bullet entered through the fifth window from the driver down.
10 Q. And what was the location of the tram?
11 A. It doesn't say that. All it says is "Zmaja od Bosne Street
12 Let me just look.
13 Q. Well, Zmaja od Bosne Street is several kilometres long?
14 A. Yes.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just ask for your indulgence
16 for a few minutes, please. I just wanted to look at the map of the
17 lines.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Can we -- please, sir, can you put your signature and the date on
20 the map so that we can tender it?
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
22 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, the witness has already testified
23 that he, himself -- quite properly, he's pointed out that he, himself, is
24 not quite sure what the shaded area means. I don't see any utility --
25 JUDGE KWON: We have that part in our transcript, but that arrow
Page 8226
1 has some meaning, doesn't it; direction of fire which the witness
2 established at the time, the left --
3 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, I can see that, but --
4 JUDGE KWON: So can you not admit it --
5 MR. GAYNOR: Very well, for that specific --
6 JUDGE KWON: -- under that understanding?
7 MR. GAYNOR: Very well, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that will be admitted.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D790.
10 JUDGE KWON: Could you put the date and the signature?
11 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
12 JUDGE KWON: In order to be clear, change the colour into black
13 and draw the line again, the direction that you established at the time.
14 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Could we then have map 09390C. That's the 65 ter number.
18 JUDGE KWON: And sheet number?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 11.
20 That's number 9. Could we have sheet 11. Two maps after this
21 one.
22 JUDGE KWON: Two pages further, yes.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Do you recognise the area in this plan?
25 Could we please zoom in on the upper left portion of the map.
Page 8227
1 Can you recognise what's depicted here?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you please mark on this map the point where the tram was
4 struck and also the place which you indicated as the direction from which
5 the bullet came? Please go ahead. I don't want to suggest any markings
6 to you.
7 A. Well, this is approximately the stretch of the tracks [marks],
8 and this would be the direction [marks].
9 Q. Thank you. Would you agree with me that the angle of incidence
10 would approximate 90 degrees?
11 A. Well, I can't really tell.
12 Q. Well, tell us, what would it be, at minimum?
13 A. Well, we don't have the angle of incidence.
14 Q. However, what you've indicated here, and in relation to the tram
15 tracks, this looks like an angle of approximately anywhere between 70 and
16 110 degrees. If it came from the front, then it would be a 70-degree, an
17 acute angle, and if it came from the back, it would be 110, an obtuse
18 angle; correct?
19 A. Well, approximately.
20 Q. Thank you. And we are trying to prove here that it could not be
21 greater than 13 because the bullet entered the window-pane on the fifth
22 window-pane and it hit the person who was sitting next to the third
23 window-pane.
24 JUDGE KWON: Do not argue with the witness. The witness has
25 answered your question, and move on. You can make your submission later.
Page 8228
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Q. Will you please sign and date this?
3 A. [Marks]
4 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. By mistake, I was advised that the
5 Chamber or the Court Deputy has lost the previous marked map. But we
6 don't have to restore it. Instead, we'll keep this one. So we'll give
7 the exhibit number to this one. Is it okay? Then we'll give the number
8 for this.
9 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit D791.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if we need that map, we can
12 actually recover it later on.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes. In order to understand -- to follow the
14 proceedings, we may need to recover it. That can be done by using the
15 video. So we'll give the number for that, a separate number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this particular map will be
17 Exhibit D792, and the previous one will be Exhibit D791.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you for that clarification. Thank you.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. Mr. Vidovic, did you take part in the on-site investigation of
21 the incident of 25th October 1995, the shooting of a tram? The 25th of
22 October, 1994.
23 A. Well, I assume so. But if you tell me exactly the location --
24 Q. The crossroads of Zmaja od Bosne Street and Hamdija Cemerlic
25 Street, the Brotherhood Road. Do you recall?
Page 8229
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In this incident, there were nine casualties; correct?
3 A. I can't really remember.
4 Q. Do you remember the direction of the tram, its orientation?
5 A. I don't know. Do you have the on-site investigation report?
6 Maybe I can take a look.
7 Q. Well, that is an official note, 65 ter 10512, document 10512.
8 10512, and you can see your name appearing under number 4 there.
9 MR. GAYNOR: I believe this is P1756, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 8, please, of the
12 document itself. The English page may be different, but we'll see in a
13 moment.
14 Yes, that is the page that I want.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Can you see here, under number 4, where it says:
17 "The crime technician of the Sarajevo CSB, Bogdan Vidovic"?
18 Correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Please take a look at this report so that you can answer my
21 questions more easily.
22 Yes, now we have the English page as well.
23 Here it says that:
24 "An on-site investigation was carried out at the scene at Vojvode
25 Putnika Street, right after the Pofalici tram stop. More specifically,
Page 8230
1 the stretch of the tracks across from the Bellamy Cafe."
2 That's where the Orthodox Church is; correct?
3 A. [No interpretation]
4 Q. Thank you. If you were able to locate it, can we now have the
5 map again, 1D2581. And if you could please mark that spot.
6 And could it be, please, noted that the witness answered with a
7 "Yes," and the transcript did not reflect that.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I said, "Yes."
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreters cannot
10 hear the witness when the answers are very short.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Is this the section of the map depicting the point where the
13 incident occurred? And would you please mark the incident location?
14 A. Hamdija Cemerlic and Zmaja od Bosne Street, that's this
15 intersection here [marks].
16 Q. Thank you. Can you please be a little bit more precise? It was
17 across from the Bellamy building and the Orthodox Church. Could you
18 please mark Bristol Hotel, the Orthodox Church, and the Bellamy Cafe, and
19 indicate them with numbers 1, 2 and 3?
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 2, 3, and 4 for
21 these three buildings and number 1 as the incident location.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know where the
23 Bristol Hotel was. I think it's about here [marks]. The Orthodox Church
24 is here, number 3 [marks], and Bellamy would be about here, I think
25 [marks].
Page 8231
1 Q. Would you please put number 1 as the incident location?
2 A. [Marks]. Here it is.
3 Q. Can you recall now the orientation? Which way was the tram
4 going?
5 A. I can't say that I remember this at all. I do see that I took
6 part in the on-site investigation. However, I can't recall and I don't
7 know what it says in there. Is there a report that I can see?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I please -- could I ask again
9 for a hard copy of this, kindly?
10 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Mr. President, I do have a hard copy. Again,
11 I'm worried about setting some kind of precedent with the Prosecution is
12 expected to show up with hard copies during the Defence
13 cross-examination. Perhaps Mr. Karadzic could ask members of his own
14 team to prepare these.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I thought it was the witness that asked for the
16 hard copy. Now I understand you. Yes, that can be done on an
17 exceptional basis.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it is my understanding that
19 this is a Prosecution witness. And since the witness asked for a hard
20 copy in order to jog his memory, I assume that the Prosecution had
21 prepared a copy of this.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. So, Witness, please just use that report and tell us whether you
24 can see in which direction this tram was moving. Is it correct that the
25 tram was moving from Bascarsija towards the tram sheds?
Page 8232
1 A. [No interpretation]
2 JUDGE KWON: The interpreters couldn't hear your answer,
3 Mr. Vidovic. What did you say?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just asked for your
5 understanding. I just want to leaf through this.
6 Since I don't see a single report that I drafted, I will have to
7 read these other reports that were drafted by my colleagues.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Perhaps I can help you. It says here that it's in line with
10 Sibenska Street, approximately. Maybe that can help you. So it's in
11 line with Sibenska Street which is between the Orthodox Church and the
12 Bellamy Cafe, so that's possibly the 425th street; correct?
13 A. Near number 3. I really can't recall what the street name was at
14 the time.
15 Q. Perhaps I can read what it says in this report for you.
16 On page 1, the one-before-last paragraph, the first page of the
17 report, which is the eighth page of the document, it says that:
18 "Immediately after the tram stop at Pofalici, more specifically,
19 on the stretch across from the Bellamy Cafe and the Orthodox Church,
20 between these two facilities there is Sibenska Street, at the beginning
21 of which lies an apartment building that can be reached by a paved road.
22 Sibenska Street is at a 90-degree angle to Vojvode Putnika Street
23 approaches to it are closed with several concrete blocks that are 190
24 centimetres tall and that have -- that are not one next to the other. In
25 the back of this building -- of this street, there is a three-storey
Page 8233
1 building some 120 metres away from the incident site."
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
3 MR. GAYNOR: Perhaps Your Honours would prefer to see an English
4 translation on your screens. If you wish, I can give the page.
5 JUDGE KWON: Now we're watching the map which has been marked --
6 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, very well.
7 JUDGE KWON: -- just to refresh the memory of the witness.
8 Did you find the passage, Mr. Vidovic?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
10 JUDGE KWON: But now can you remember in which direction the tram
11 was moving?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, based on this, from what I
13 could read here, the tram ended up in the tram sheds. I assumed that it
14 was moving from Bascarsija toward Alipasino Polje, towards the so-called
15 "remiza" [phoen] or tram sheds.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Could you please mark with an arrow the orientation of the tram,
18 because the participants here are not aware of it.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. So it was moving from east to west; correct?
21 A. Well, this would be the direction in which the tram was moving.
22 Q. Thank you. Now I will try to assist you. Does it help, what it
23 says here, that between the Bellamy Cafe and the Orthodox Church lies the
24 Sibenska Street
25 the incident site?
Page 8234
1 A. Well, in that case, that would be this street here [indicates]
2 next to number 3.
3 Q. Is it marked with number 425?
4 A. Well, I suppose so. I don't know what the name of that street
5 is, either today or then. I really can't recall.
6 Q. Well, it should be noted in the report. It says there that it's
7 Sibenska Street and that the Sibenska Street -- the approach to Sibenska
8 Street from Vojvode Putnika Street was cut off or closed off with some
9 screens, a concrete screen which was 190 centimetres tall?
10 A. Yes, I can see that it's written here.
11 Q. Can you remember how far these concrete block were, one from the
12 other?
13 A. I really don't know. Maybe they're overlapped.
14 Q. Well, now, no, that's not what it says in the report.
15 A. Oh, yes.
16 Q. Well, let's see what it says on the following page of the report.
17 Please take a look at the second page of the report. In the vicinity,
18 the casing of a 7.62 bullet was found on the floor, the fragmentation
19 bullet. It was handed to over to a ballistic expert for analysis. Can
20 you tell me, in the territory of the former Yugoslavia, was there ever a
21 7.62-millimetre fragmentation bullet in use?
22 A. I don't know. I can't remember. This is not my report at all.
23 It was a report compiled by a colleague of mine.
24 Q. But you participated in the investigation number 4?
25 A. Yes, I was on the site, but it is also possible that I did not
Page 8235
1 draft the report itself, because there were other scene-of-crime
2 technicians there.
3 Q. It says the third bullet penetrated the wall of the tram 30
4 centimetres above the floor, creating a hole 8 centimetres wide --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please slow down. The
6 interpreters cannot cope. Thank you.
7 JUDGE KWON: Sorry, Mr. Karadzic, the interpreters were not able
8 to follow you at all.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll repeat.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Do you agree that it says here, on page 9:
12 "The third bullet penetrated --"
13 Can you read it yourself?
14 A. Yes, that's what it says here.
15 Q. Please read this passage carefully, all the way where it says
16 "part of the lower support of the seat."
17 Maybe I can be of assistance. Does it not state here,
18 unequivocally, that the third bullet entered 30 centimetres above the
19 floor and that the support of the seat was hit at 25 centimetres' height?
20 Is that correct?
21 A. Yes, that's what it says here.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Can we now have 1D02582. It's the sketch that should correspond
24 to what is written here.
25 But before that - I apologise - can we have this map signed and
Page 8236
1 dated and admitted into evidence, please.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. The date and your initials, please.
4 A. [Marks]
5 JUDGE KWON: That will be admitted.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D793, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
8 Just purely for my reference, Mr. Gaynor, the report referred to
9 and admitted as P1756 was admitted as part of an associated exhibit, as
10 forming the indispensable and inseparable part of the amalgamated
11 statement of this witness?
12 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE KWON: And my note says it's referred to in his statement
14 on pages from 58 to 60; is that correct?
15 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, it's referred to in footnote 26, I believe,
16 which is on page 60.
17 JUDGE KWON: So this was raised during the cross-examination of
18 the witness done by Mr. Tapuskovic? That was my question.
19 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, that appears to be the case, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE KWON: So you tender this document to support unscheduled
21 sniping, you're saying, not in order to prove or support the unscheduled
22 sniping but just tender the document which was raised and discussed
23 during the cross-examination in the previous hearing?
24 MR. GAYNOR: Yes. The approach we took on the documents raised
25 during the cross-examination previously is that we included them, really,
Page 8237
1 out of a sense of fairness, that they are raised and discussed during the
2 witness's cross-examination in his previous evidence. It's similarly
3 with a couple of ABiH documents and the document from
4 President Izetbegovic. We included them, really, out of a sense of
5 fairness.
6 Now, Your Honours have admitted them. If Your Honours, as I said
7 when Mr. Vidovic began his testimony, if Your Honours wish not to admit
8 such documents, we have no objection.
9 JUDGE KWON: So there was a misunderstanding when I said that the
10 Prosecution has tendered this in order to prove to show the pattern or
11 those things?
12 MR. GAYNOR: Well, Your Honour, I don't think we take such a
13 strict view. We put in the evidence, and it is from that body of
14 evidence that the Court can draw its conclusions and on which we will
15 base our arguments. Now, whether it was admitted during the
16 examination-in-chief or during the cross-examination of the witness in
17 his prior evidence would not, I submit, limit us from relying on that in
18 support of the Prosecution's case.
19 JUDGE KWON: Very well. I'll leave it there.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Vidovic, does this mean that the bullet entered the tram at
22 30 centimetres from the floor and hit the next seat at 25 centimetres
23 from the floor? Does this sketch correspond to what I said? These
24 measurements are expressed in millimetres, so 300 millimetres and 250?
25 A. Yes, that is what is written in the report.
Page 8238
1 Q. When we have two points of reference, so you can draw a straight
2 line between them?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you agree that that would constitute a 20-degree angle with
5 relation to the floor?
6 A. Yes.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Can we have this sketch admitted into evidence, please?
9 MR. GAYNOR: If we're dealing with this sketch, I object to the
10 admission of this. Again, this is a document prepared by a member of the
11 Defence team for Mr. Karadzic for the purpose of these proceedings. If
12 he wants to submit it, he can submit it through another form, rather than
13 through this witness.
14 JUDGE KWON: I agree -- we agree, Mr. Gaynor.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. We shall proceed, but
16 we do agree on the angle.
17 JUDGE KWON: In light of the point I raised with Mr. Gaynor, I
18 don't think you need to go through these reports in such detail.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Can we now have 1D2580, a Google image of this part of the city.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Do you recognise this part of the city, and can you mark what we
23 discussed before? You can see the church, you can see the streets named
24 in your report?
25 A. I have to say again that this is not my report, where these
Page 8239
1 streets are mentioned, but I can do the same what I did with the map.
2 Q. So you can see the church, the Bellamy Cafe, and Sibenska Street
3 between them?
4 A. Yes, I can see that. So that would be it, number 4 [marks],
5 Bristol Hotel. Number 3, the Orthodox Church [marks]. And the -- I'm
6 sorry. Number 2 [marks], and the incident site, number 1 [marks].
7 Q. Thank you. It says that with respect to this street, at about
8 120 metres, which is actually 200 metres, there is a building. Is this
9 the reference to the building that closes Sibenska Street on the Serbian
10 side, and can you mark that building?
11 A. If this is the street between 2 and 3, there is nothing blocking
12 it. It connects to Vilsonovo Setaliste.
13 Q. But on the Serbian side?
14 A. There are several buildings. I can mark the closest one, this
15 one here [marks].
16 Q. It says then that the closest skyscraper is 250 metres from the
17 incident site. Can you mark this high-rise building?
18 A. I really wouldn't know which one they're referring to.
19 Q. Can you please look at the report, what the report says about the
20 layout of these buildings? On page 1, which is page 8 in the document,
21 it says that at about 120 metres from the incident site, and behind it
22 there is a high-rise building at an indefinite distance. But we can see
23 here that it cannot be less than 250 metres. Do you see these square
24 buildings to the left?
25 A. Are you referring to these buildings [indicates]?
Page 8240
1 Q. No, no, no, I'm referring to the ones at the very bottom of this
2 image, because these do not have a direct line of site with respect to
3 the incident site.
4 A. I'm trying to find which high-rise building they are referring
5 to. Perhaps this one here [marks].
6 Q. Let's say if this building is 120 metres far away, then this
7 would be 250 metres; is that right?
8 A. Well, let's say so, although --
9 Q. Can you please put the date and your initials?
10 A. [Marks]
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this high-rise building marked
12 on the left -- can this marking be erased, because it's wrong, the one
13 next to the river?
14 MR. GAYNOR: Perhaps Mr. Karadzic could explain, for the record,
15 why he believes that's wrong, and the witness could be given an
16 opportunity to confirm that.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, by all means.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm guided by the report, which
19 says that along Sibenska Street, which is located between the church and
20 Bellamy, the only buildings can be seen from Sibenska Street are the ones
21 here. Sibenska Street is between features 2 and 3 and overlooks
22 number 1, where the incident occurred, and only these buildings can be
23 seen from that particular street, not any other building which is far
24 away.
25 Can we have this document admitted into evidence?
Page 8241
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D794, Your Honours.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 1D02583.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. You would remember that we agreed that 30 centimetres and 25
6 centimetres make a 20-degree angle with respect to the floor of the tram?
7 A. Yes.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D02583.
9 Has this Google image been given a number?
10 1D02583, here we have it.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Vidovic, do you agree that from the point of impact to this
13 smaller building, there is the distance of around 200 metres, and that a
14 maximum 250 metres to the high-rise building?
15 A. Yes, that's what's written on the sketch.
16 Q. Do you agree that a 20-degree angle would indicate that the
17 origin of fire was at 72 metres from the small building and 90 metres
18 from the high-rise building? Is that right?
19 A. Well, I can't say much off the top of my head. But on the basis
20 of this sketch, that would be approximately right.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So if the angle of descent was 20,
22 the incident angle would require that height.
23 Can we have this admitted into evidence?
24 JUDGE KWON: Again, we'll not admit this document.
25 We allowed you to put the question and elicit the answer from the
Page 8242
1 witness, but it's not appropriate to admit this through this witness. He
2 cannot confirm this drawing.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Can we now look at 65 ter 10512, page 14. 10512, please. This
5 is a part of the report. This is a part of the report. Let's say from
6 the 24th line to the 18th line, where it says:
7 "The first initial damage is located --"
8 Yes, perhaps we can look at a copy in each of the languages:
9 "The first damage is located --"
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would kindly ask to know where
11 the text is.
12 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
13 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. The interpreters were not able to
14 hear those parts. Where is it? Could you locate the passage for the
15 benefit of the interpreters?
16 THE ACCUSED: "The first point of impact ..."
17 [Interpretation] "The first point of impact" is on the English
18 page, and then in the Serbian it's somewhere in the middle. It's about
19 line 24 from the bottom. So in the English, it's: "The first point of
20 impact is on the sheet metal."
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Can I now ask you, sir, to continue reading in the Serbian, and
23 all the parties and the interpreters have the English version of the
24 document.
25 A. "The second point of impact is on the left sheet metal side of
Page 8243
1 the front car. It is elliptical in form, 0.8 by 1.5 centimetres from the
2 ground and 69 centimetres from the end of the front car, from the
3 articulated section; photograph number 4. The muzzle of the weapon at
4 the moment when the round was fired was to the left and behind the tram;
5 that is, the direction of fire in relation to the left side of the tram
6 extends from back to front, left to right, and from above to below."
7 Is that enough?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I ask the interpreters to
9 draw the attention to the right side of the screen. All of that is
10 interpreted. Mr. Vidovic is reading literally. It started with: "The
11 first point of impact ...," and then: "The second point of impact ..."
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Can you please continue, sir?
14 A. I will start from the beginning, from: "The second point of
15 impact ..."
16 "The second point of impact is on the left sheet metal side of
17 the front car. It is elliptical in form, 0.8 by 1.5 centimetres from the
18 ground and 69 centimetres from the end of the front car."
19 JUDGE KWON: It seems to be an impossibility for the interpreters
20 to follow the speed of reading; in particular, in the French booth, it's
21 impossible at all. I don't see the point in reading all those passages.
22 Put your question, Mr. Karadzic. What is your question?
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Then, Mr. Vidovic, I would like to ask you just to refresh your
25 memory with this document to tell us which angles were established for
Page 8244
1 this incoming bullet.
2 A. First of all, this document is something that I'm seeing for the
3 first time, since it was written by others. And I assume that on the
4 basis of two angles that are being mentioned here, 26 degrees and 28
5 degrees and then 10 degrees, I really couldn't tell you anything about
6 these angles.
7 Q. Well, let's do it like this, then. This is something that is
8 part of your expertise. Just like we saw in Marin Dvor, when a bullet
9 comes in at 90 degrees, it creates a regular hole in the form or in the
10 shape of a circle; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you agree that when it comes in at a lower angle, as it says
13 here, then it creates an elliptical opening in the body of the tram? Is
14 that correct?
15 A. I'm sorry.
16 Q. An elliptical shape, this is what the team in which you were in
17 established. So it is elliptical in form, and the dimensions are 0.8 by
18 1.5 centimetres?
19 A. That's what it says here.
20 Q. The first point of impact at the back of the tram, an elliptical
21 shape, and then it is 1 metre 29 centimetres distance from the ground and
22 82 centimetres from the point at which the rear car starts. And we have
23 an angle of 45.57 degrees here; is that correct?
24 A. I don't see that angle being mentioned anywhere.
25 Q. Well, when you calculate it, that is what it comes to; is that
Page 8245
1 right? I mean, do you agree with that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. And the second point of impact is on the left sheet
4 metal side of the front car. It is, again, elliptical in shape, 0.8 by
5 1.5, and it's 75 centimetres from the ground, and the median value would
6 be 57.67 degrees, so 57 degrees. So the median value would be 51.66
7 degrees; is that correct?
8 A. I guess so. I don't know.
9 Q. Thank you. And would you agree, then, that -- and look at this
10 whole page, please. And would you then agree that these ballistics
11 experts' findings are that while establishing --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please indicate where he's
13 reading from.
14 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
15 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. The interpreters are lost again.
16 You're simply too fast.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Because I'm under the pressure of
18 time. I apologise.
19 JUDGE KWON: Could you locate the passage first, and then put
20 your question.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have already mentioned that 75
22 centimetres is from the ground. This is one bullet. The other bullet is
23 121 centimetres from the ground. And the angles, when they are
24 calculated, are 45.57.1 and the other one would be 57 degrees, making the
25 median value 51.66 degrees. Now I want to put a question.
Page 8246
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Vidovic, while we have an impact angle like this, which is 20
3 degrees, at least, in relation to the ground, is it possible that the
4 bullet came from anywhere from the Serbian territory which is closest to
5 that place at a distance of 200 metres?
6 A. I don't know. Possibly.
7 Q. How tall would this building have to be?
8 A. I really don't know.
9 Q. And the first building, which is a three-storey building and
10 which is between 120 and 200 metres from the place of incidence, is three
11 storeys high. 20 degrees could not be achieved from that distance; is
12 that correct?
13 A. I don't know.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Let us then look at
15 65 ter 1052.
16 I apologise to the French booth. I believe that I am making it
17 difficult for them.
18 Can we now look at page 17, please, of this document.
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you said you would be able to finish
20 your cross-examination in an hour. An hour has passed.
21 I checked this transcript, but my memory is not clear.
22 Mr. Robinson, I just wanted to check whether you asked for striking out
23 those amalgamated statements -- those parts of the amalgamated statement
24 which deals with this part?
25 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President, I didn't.
Page 8247
1 JUDGE KWON: You didn't.
2 MR. ROBINSON: I asked for two other unscheduled incidents, but
3 not this one.
4 JUDGE KWON: Not this one?
5 MR. ROBINSON: Yes.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Vidovic, can I please ask you to glance at the official notes
8 of Sulejman Pilav?
9 JUDGE KWON: You didn't answer my question. How many more
10 minutes?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I would like to use this to
12 complete this incident, and then I would like to move to the incident in
13 the steelworks, just to show a number of photographs just so that we can
14 show this wasn't how -- this didn't happen in the way that the
15 Prosecution is suggesting.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Vidovic, do you agree --
18 JUDGE KWON: The Prosecution is not suggesting anything in
19 relation to the incident. This incident was raised during the
20 cross-examination of this witness by the counsel of Mr. Milosevic or
21 Mr. Milosevic. As I said to you, there's no point of going through this
22 incident in such a detail. I was wondering whether it was a part of this
23 objection by your legal adviser, and we are thinking that we should have
24 granted that request, but it was not requested.
25 Move on to your next topic, and conclude by 35. Then we'll take
Page 8248
1 a break.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. Do you agree -- do you agree -- actually, did you participate in
4 this investigation of this incident that we are finishing and which you
5 indicated as being number 4?
6 A. I probably did, since I am noted in it. I probably did
7 participate.
8 Q. Do you read that this Sulejman Pilav confirmed that French
9 experts just waved their hands and said the shots came from Bellamy, not
10 from the Serbian territories? You can see the fifth or sixth line of
11 this statement.
12 A. Well, let me just read it.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The interpreter even said --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree with what -- I mean, I
15 don't agree, but I agree that that is what is written here.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Do you have a different opinion? Do you have anything
18 established in this case? Can you please tell me what you established in
19 this case?
20 A. The ballistics experts did their job. I probably did not do
21 anything else, other than take photographs, in this case.
22 Q. Thank you. And do you recall that on the 9th of March, 1996
23 went to investigate at the Ilijas Steelworks?
24 A. It's possible. I don't remember.
25 Q. Do you recall that you found an alleged 10 air-bombs there and
Page 8249
1 seven barrels filled with explosives mounted on wheels which the Serbian
2 side was allegedly rolling down the sides and activating in order to
3 inflict damage and to cause panic?
4 A. I'm trying to remember that now.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D02586, please, so
6 that Mr. Vidovic could refresh his memory. 1D02586.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. And do you agree that here, in the penultimate place in the first
9 group, it states: "Bogdan Vidovic, criminal technician," and then the
10 others present including a representative of the court? Can we -- is it
11 noted here that 10 air-bombs are found and seven 200 litre filled with
12 explosives; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, that's what it says here.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 2585, page 10, so
15 that we can look at the photographs that were accompanying the findings
16 of this investigation.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Are you familiar with these photographs?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you recognise the signature at the bottom?
21 A. I can see the name, but I don't recognise the signature. I
22 assume it is the signature of Ekrem Suljevic.
23 Q. Was he in this team that went to Ilijas, and that you were in as
24 well?
25 A. I really don't recall this incident.
Page 8250
1 Q. Can you please refresh your memory from the report? Is there
2 anything else, other than these photographs? Are these the air-bombs
3 that you found at that location?
4 A. I really don't remember.
5 Q. Would you agree that these are naval bombs, not air-bombs?
6 A. Well, really, that is something that I really couldn't tell you
7 anything about.
8 Q. Did you agree to this report, Mr. Vidovic? You were in a team
9 that established that Serbs had eight air-bombs, which we don't see
10 anywhere in this report. What are we going to do with reports in which
11 everything is falsified, from angles to directions, to the items that are
12 photographed?
13 JUDGE KWON: Don't make a statement.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we then look at 1D2588.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Do you agree that this is a diagram of an air-bomb that is known
17 in our part of the world?
18 A. Well, I didn't serve in the air force, so it could be. I don't
19 know. It looks like an air-bomb.
20 Q. Was anything like this found in the Ilijas Steelworks and
21 documented?
22 A. Again, I say I don't recall seeing anything like this.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the next page,
24 please.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon?
Page 8251
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D2585, page 12.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Let me remind you, Mr. Vidovic, that it was stated that 10
4 air-bombs were found. On the photographs, these 10 air-bombs are shown,
5 which are actually not air-bombs, and that 7 barrels of 200 kilos each
6 were found with explosives, mounted on wheels. Are these those barrels
7 mounted on wheels?
8 A. Well, I recall seeing this, but I really don't remember exactly
9 where that was. I perhaps think that it was at this location, but I
10 don't know.
11 Q. Can I ask you to look at the top photograph. Can you look at
12 these vehicles, these military vehicles without wheels?
13 A. Yes, I see them.
14 Q. Would these wheels shown on the lower photograph possibly belong
15 to those vehicles?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. How could you install these wheels on these barrels?
18 A. I really don't know. Perhaps you could weld them on. I don't
19 know.
20 Q. Mr. Vidovic, is it logical to you that the Serbian Army would be
21 using these barrels when it had artillery to fire at where it wanted?
22 MR. GAYNOR: Objection. That question asks for speculation. And
23 this line of questions appears to be going nowhere, in any event.
24 Mr. Vidovic simply doesn't have the knowledge, and he's acknowledged
25 that.
Page 8252
1 JUDGE KWON: I agree.
2 I take it, Mr. Karadzic, you've concluded.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to ask: Why do we
4 not have photographs to accompany this investigation material? There is
5 a certain assertion that is being made that the Prosecution is using
6 against us, so why do we not have photographs to accompany the results of
7 this investigation?
8 JUDGE KWON: That's the end of your cross-examination of this
9 witness.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 I would like to thank Mr. Vidovic, and I am sorry that we could
12 not throw more light on things.
13 But if you see this barrel, Excellency, where is it that we see
14 explosives here? And all of that is being used against us. What does
15 this prove?
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, it's not now that you should make a
17 speech or submission.
18 I take it you are minded to tender the previous document, 2586,
19 which refers to the witness as part of the investigation team.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor?
22 MR. GAYNOR: No objection.
23 JUDGE KWON: How about the next one, 2585? I remember the
24 witness confirmed seeing these things.
25 MR. GAYNOR: Yes. In fact, that document is a proofing note of
Page 8253
1 Ekrem Suljevic, and the photographs are attached to that. We have no
2 objection to its admission.
3 JUDGE KWON: And about the last document, the sketch of an aerial
4 bomb, 2588?
5 MR. GAYNOR: There's no indication on that sketch or on the
6 record as to the source of that drawing, of where Mr. Karadzic got that
7 drawing.
8 JUDGE KWON: But the witness said it looks like an aerial bomb.
9 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, although he acknowledged he's never served in
10 the air force or anything like that. As Your Honours wish.
11 JUDGE KWON: We will admit them all. If there's a --
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask -- may I ask for page 9?
13 If you can just glance at page 9, and perhaps that could be tendered so
14 that you could see what these alleged bombs are. Can we look at page 9
15 of 02585?
16 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit them all. If there is no English page,
17 we'll mark it for identification.
18 I take it you have some questions for your re-examination.
19 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, essentially just two questions. It should take
20 no more than three minutes.
21 JUDGE KWON: Then we go on and take a break afterwards.
22 MR. GAYNOR: Very well.
23 JUDGE KWON: But we should give the numbers for those three
24 documents.
25 THE REGISTRAR: 1D2586 will be MFI D795. 1D2585 will be
Page 8254
1 Exhibit D796. And 1D2588 will be Exhibit D797.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
3 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Re-examination by Mr. Gaynor:
5 Q. Mr. Vidovic, I just have two questions concerning an incident,
6 the sniping of a tram on the 19th of June, 1994, which in this trial we
7 call Incident F-8. I just want to clarify one point about the ballistics
8 of that.
9 Mr. Karadzic asked you, at page 14 of today's proceedings:
10 "Were the fragments large enough in order to be able to establish
11 the calibre?"
12 To which you answered:
13 "Well, ballistics experts can establish the calibre on the basis
14 of those fragments. I mean, they were probably of sufficient size, since
15 the calibre was established.
16 "Q. Who was the ballistics expert in your team?
17 "A. I really don't remember. I think it was Boro Stankov. I'm
18 not sure."
19 That's the end of the extract.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up P1758, and if
21 we could go to page 7 in the English and page 10 in the B/C/S, please.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. I just want you to look at the last paragraph of that,
24 Mr. Vidovic. As you can see, it's a ballistics report relating to the
25 incident on the 19th of June, 1994. And towards the end, we can see that
Page 8255
1 the ballistics experts concluded that the fragments belonged to a
2 7.9-millimetre-calibre bullet, with tracing powder, and the bullets may
3 have been fired from an M-48, 80-millimetre carbine --
4 80-millimetre-calibre carbine rifle, automatic rifle, or an M-53
5 7.9-millimetre-calibre machine-gun. Do you see that in the final
6 paragraph of this document?
7 A. I see it, yes.
8 Q. Is this what you were referring to when you said that calibre was
9 established for this incident?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. GAYNOR: No further questions, Mr. President. Thank you.
12 JUDGE KWON: Well, that concludes your testimony, Mr. Vidovic.
13 Thank you again for your coming to the Tribunal to give it. Now you're
14 free to go. I wish you have a safe trip back home.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
16 JUDGE KWON: We'll have a break of 25 minutes.
17 And I take it that the next witness is ready to start.
18 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, he is ready. He's testifying under a pseudonym
19 and with image distortion. He is ready to start.
20 JUDGE KWON: So 25 minutes' break will be sufficient for
21 preparation, I take it.
22 We'll resume at five past 6.00. I meant five past 6.00.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 6.09 p.m.
Page 8256
1 JUDGE KWON: Before we bring in the witness, can I hear from you,
2 Mr. Tieger, what you're going to say?
3 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.
4 Let me make a preliminary point on that, and it will put the
5 Court in a position to determine whether it wishes to hear the full
6 submission today or later. And I'm certainly prepared to move to the
7 full submission.
8 The backdrop to this is the tendering, during the course of
9 testimony, of an executive summary titled "The Truth About Gorazde" that
10 was prepared by the Republican Research Committee. At that time, the
11 Court MFI
12 Defence about that. The Defence submitted, on the 7th of October, some
13 additional information, as requested by the Court. That was -- the
14 submission in response to the Court's request was styled as a motion to
15 admit the exhibit. I have no problem with that, but I have spoken with
16 Mr. Robinson about it. We agreed that it, under the circumstances here,
17 an oral submission -- oral response by the Prosecution would be
18 appropriate, in light of the fact that it was raised in court would
19 normally have triggered such a response. I wanted to make sure that at
20 least that was our -- we are in a position to do that today, in case the
21 submission of the written response was deemed as triggering some kind of
22 dead-line, and wanted to make sure that was done.
23 So that's the status. If the Court wants to hear it now, I can
24 do so. If you want to find a more convenient time, that's perfectly
25 acceptable with us, and with the Defence as well. I leave that to the
Page 8257
1 Court.
2 JUDGE KWON: When do you think you can file it in writing,
3 Mr. Tieger?
4 MR. TIEGER: Well, the whole point was I think, Your Honour, this
5 seems to me to be a situation where we can obviate the need to file it in
6 writing, because it would trigger -- I've already explained to
7 Mr. Robinson the substance of our proposed oral response. It just seems
8 to me that we will move forward much faster, both -- and much more
9 efficiently for the benefit of the Court, and obviating the need for
10 additional burden on the parties, if I made this submission orally. It's
11 just about a three- to five-minute submission. Maybe I shouldn't even
12 have done the introduction.
13 JUDGE KWON: We are pressed by time, as always.
14 MR. TIEGER: Yes.
15 JUDGE KWON: And given that we are not sitting for the remainder
16 of this week, I wonder whether you can put it in writing.
17 MR. TIEGER: As always, we're at the Court's disposal, of course,
18 Your Honour.
19 But as I say, if it helps, it's a relatively brief oral
20 submission which has already been provided to the Defence.
21 JUDGE KWON: I'll consult with my colleagues.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes. How brief would it be?
24 MR. TIEGER: Certainly no more than five minutes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll hear it.
Page 8258
1 MR. TIEGER: Okay, thank you very much.
2 I've already indicated what the backdrop is. I will note that at
3 the time the Prosecution expressed some concern about the partisan nature
4 of the document, in view of the fact that it was prepared by the
5 Republican Committee, and factors associated with that. In fact, our
6 brief -- we did some checking, as did Mr. Robinson, on the net to find
7 something more about the document. That tended to underscore our
8 concerns in that regard. We identified, for example, indications that a
9 predecessor report by the same group and the same author triggered the
10 resignation of four members of the committee, or from the other party, as
11 I understand it, and also some indications on the net alleging an
12 anti-Muslim bias by the author.
13 But more important than that, and much more to the point here, I
14 believe, Your Honour, is the fact that this is not the kind of document
15 that has been the subject of our Bar Table discussions and has fallen
16 within the ambit of proposed Bar Table submissions to date. We've been
17 talking thus far about official, contemporaneous documents prepared by
18 those involved in some manner actively in the conflict, whether they are
19 the warring factions or perhaps international organisations gathering and
20 assimilating information in order to deal with the situation on the
21 ground. To the contrary, this is basically a kind of expert report which
22 attempts to be or purports to be the assimilation of the kind of
23 information we do bar table, and then an analysis and preparation of
24 conclusions stemming from that assessment.
25 Now, whether such an expert report is submitted to a committee of
Page 8259
1 the US Congress, or to Harvard University
2 particular interest group, doesn't change the nature of this kind of
3 report, and the Court can well imagine how many such reports either party
4 in this case might be interested in locating and tendering. And, indeed,
5 if we were to do so, I think we'd be on the beginning of a very slippery
6 slope, and we have something of an anomaly, submitting an expert report
7 where -- that basically circumvents 94 bis, where the author isn't there
8 to have his attitudes and methodology inquired about, and, indeed, where
9 we don't know the sources. And in this particular case, the document is
10 entirely unsourced.
11 Now, one final point. And for full transparency, we have noted
12 that this particular document was tendered by the Prosecution in one of
13 the very -- in fact, in the first case in this Tribunal for a very
14 limited purpose; for the jurisdictional purpose of international conflict
15 and for one particular tiny point in the report. I wanted to mention
16 that, in the interests of full transparency, but I don't think its
17 tendering at a very early stage of the Tribunal's existence, before the
18 development of procedures associated with expert reports, and for an
19 extremely limited purpose, trumps the points I've made earlier.
20 So for the reasons mentioned, should the Court -- certainly
21 should the Court be inclined to admit this, we would argue its weight is
22 extremely limited to non-existent. But more importantly, for the policy
23 reasons I've just mentioned, we would suggest that this is not a report
24 that is amenable to admission, at least under all the circumstances
25 presented here.
Page 8260
1 And I would also -- one final point. I think the relevant
2 portion of the report, that is, the portion of the report the accused was
3 interested in, was read out in full, and the accused obtained an answer
4 from the witness, General Rose in that case, specifically to that
5 portion. That might well obviate the need to even deal with the
6 remainder of the report at all.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
8 Would you like to respond -- to reply, Mr. Robinson?
9 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, very briefly.
10 I think that since the report was discussed with General Rose, it
11 would assist the Chamber, to understand the context of what was discussed
12 and what is in the report, to have it as an exhibit, and to give it what
13 weight that you believe is necessary.
14 Thank you.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll consider the matter and issue the
16 decision in due course.
17 Before we begin to hear the evidence of the next witness, there
18 are a couple of matters I'd like to deal with. First, there's an
19 observation I would like to make in relation to the way in which you
20 conduct the cross-examination, Mr. Karadzic.
21 I noted that you introduced a lot of untranslated documents, and
22 during the course of your cross-examination you just added the list of
23 documents you were going to use during your cross-examination. At this
24 moment, I just want to emphasise again that it is your responsibility to
25 organise your team and your resources properly, and this should include
Page 8261
1 organising the provision of notice of the documents you will be using on
2 cross-examination, and making sure that those documents are all
3 translated into English in advance. I hope you bear that in mind in the
4 future.
5 The next matter relates to the next witness.
6 Mr. Karadzic filed a motion for modification of the protective
7 measures that are currently in force for Witness KDZ166. These
8 protective measures, which include pseudonym and image distortion, were
9 granted by the Dragomir Milosevic Trial Chamber and, pursuant to
10 Rule 75(F), continued to be in force in these proceedings.
11 The Chamber notes that the accused requests the Chamber to
12 address the issue of the witness's protective measures with him when he
13 comes to testify. However, the Chamber sees no reason to revisit this
14 issue again, given that the witness was consulted by the Prosecution this
15 week and stated that he continues to have concerns about his safety.
16 The Chamber notes that in the absence of the consent of the
17 witness, a variation of protective measures can only be ordered in
18 exceptional circumstances, as provided for in Rule 75(J) of the Rules.
19 This witness has not agreed to any variation of his protective measures.
20 The Chamber has considered the reasons provided by the witness, as set
21 out in the Prosecution's investigator's report, and finds there are no
22 exceptional circumstances which would justify a modification of the
23 protective measures.
24 Moreover, as required by Rule 75, the Chamber consulted with
25 Judges Robinson, Mindua, and Harhoff, who composed the Bench in the
Page 8262
1 Dragomir Milosevic case, who also agreed that there should be no
2 modification of the protective measures in force. So, therefore, we deny
3 the motion.
4 That said, do we need to go into private session in order to
5 bring in the witness? No.
6 Let us bring in the witness.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE KWON: Good evening, Mr. Witness.
9 Although it is a bit noisy, if you could kindly take the solemn
10 declaration, please.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness, please.
13 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry. We didn't hear you because the
14 microphone was turned off. Could you read it again, please.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: KDZ166
18 [The witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE KWON: If you could make yourself comfortable.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 JUDGE KWON: If the Audio/Video unit could kindly show the
22 witness his image, how he looks.
23 Mr. Witness, do you see the monitor in front of you?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.
25 JUDGE KWON: That's how you will look to the other people, so the
Page 8263
1 people in the public gallery and those who are watching these proceedings
2 cannot see your face. And you will be referred to as "KDZ166" during the
3 course of your evidence so the people outside will not know your real
4 name. That's what you requested for. Do you understand?
5 Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, and thank you for that.
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor.
8 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Could I ask, first of all, for 65 ter 90197, please. This should
10 not be broadcast. This is a confidential exhibit.
11 Examination by Mr. Gaynor:
12 Q. Witness, could you confirm that you see on the screen in front of
13 you your name? No need to read it out.
14 A. Yes, I can see my name.
15 MR. GAYNOR: Can I request that that be admitted under seal,
16 Mr. President?
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1789, under seal, Your Honours.
19 MR. GAYNOR:
20 Q. You've previously testified in the Dragomir Milosevic trial and
21 in the Momcilo Perisic trial; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. You have previously given several statements to the Office of the
24 Prosecutor of this Tribunal?
25 A. Yes, that's right, I gave several statements.
Page 8264
1 Q. You've had an opportunity to review an amalgamated statement,
2 which contains excerpts from your previous testimony and statements; is
3 that right?
4 A. That's right.
5 MR. GAYNOR: Could I call up Confidential Exhibit 22249, please.
6 That's the 65 ter number.
7 Q. Do you recognise that on the screen in front of you as an
8 electronic copy of the amalgamated statement which you indicated you had
9 an opportunity to review?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Does that statement accurately reflect your previous statements
12 and testimony?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. If you were examined in court today on the same subjects, would
15 you provide the same information to the Court in response to those
16 questions?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. GAYNOR: I request the admission of that under seal, please.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President.
21 I simply would like to point out that on page 15, there's an
22 unscheduled incident on the 8th of November, 1994. Pursuant to our
23 previous requests, we would ask that that be redacted from the statement,
24 that there be no evidence concerning that incident elicited . And also
25 there's one associated with exhibit 65 ter 16801, that we would ask to be
Page 8265
1 excluded as connected with that incident. I'll say nothing more about
2 it.
3 Thank you.
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor, do you have anything to add to what you
5 stated earlier on?
6 MR. GAYNOR: I have no arguments different to those that I've
7 already made on this subject, Mr. President.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber's ruling remains the same.
10 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE KWON: Just one further question.
12 MR. GAYNOR: Yes.
13 JUDGE KWON: Have you tendered the redacted public version of his
14 amalgamated statement?
15 MR. GAYNOR: I have not yet tendered a redacted public version.
16 I can do so, and I will do so.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, thank you.
18 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.
19 Now, I propose to read a short summary of the witness's evidence
20 for the benefit of the public.
21 JUDGE KWON: We need to give a number for this.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the under-seal statement will be
23 Exhibit P1790, and the unredacted statement will be Exhibit P1791.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
25 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.
Page 8266
1 The witness was a criminal technician in Sarajevo during the
2 conflict in Bosnia
3 photographs, make formal sketches, and to collect parts of projectiles
4 which had detonated there.
5 The witness worked on over 100 cases of shelling or sniping of
6 the civilian population of Sarajevo
7 those cases: six shelling incidents and one sniping incident. Those
8 incidents include: the killing of 8 and wounding of 18 persons in
9 Dobrinja on 4th February 1994; the explosion of a modified air-bomb in
10 Hrasnica on 7th April 1995
11 shelling incidents on 24th May 1995
12 and injuring five persons, and at Majdanska Street, killing two and
13 injuring six; the explosion of a modified air-bomb on 16th June 1995, on
14 Trg Medjunarodnog Prijateljstva, wounding seven persons; and a sniping
15 incident in which Ms. Nermina Omerovic was killed on the 8th of November,
16 1994.
17 That ends the summary, and, Your Honours, I'm going to start with
18 Incident G-10.
19 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you a few questions about the shelling
20 in Hrasnica on the 7th of April, 1995. You remember your participation
21 in that investigation?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 MR. GAYNOR: To orient everyone, could I call up 13565, which can
24 be in public. This is a map from the Sarajevo-specific court binder.
25 Q. Now, Witness, if you see the green dot marked number 10. You've
Page 8267
1 had an opportunity previously to review this map, haven't you?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Can you confirm that the green dot marked with the number 10
4 reflects the location of this incident?
5 A. Yes, I can confirm that.
6 MR. GAYNOR: Could I ask for an exhibit number for that, please,
7 Mr. President?
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1792.
10 MR. GAYNOR:
11 Q. Witness, you say in your statement that you went to the scene of
12 the shelling. That was on the same day; is that right?
13 A. Yes, on the afternoon of the same day.
14 Q. How long did you stay in Hrasnica on that day?
15 A. We gathered together on that day at around 2.00 p.m. The whole
16 team got together at the Public Security Station in Hrasnica. And after
17 that, we went to the crime scene.
18 Q. About how long did you spend at the crime scene?
19 A. We spent between two and three hours.
20 Q. Can you describe the general area in which the scene was located?
21 Was it primarily commercial, industrial, military? Could you just
22 describe the general nature?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Leading question.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the center of the Hrasnica
25 neighbourhood, and there's nothing but family houses in this part. In
Page 8268
1 the photographs that I made of that street, one can see only family
2 houses and nothing else.
3 JUDGE KWON: I do not agree with you, Mr. Karadzic, that it was
4 leading, as you said.
5 Please go on, Mr. Gaynor.
6 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Could I ask for -- confidentially, can I ask for 09758, please.
8 Now, if we could go to page 3 of this, please. If we could zoom
9 in on that photograph.
10 Q. Does this come from a dossier of photographs which you prepared?
11 A. Yes, it does.
12 Q. Can you describe, in general terms, the nature of the destruction
13 that you saw there?
14 A. This projectile landed in the yard where there was a larger house
15 and a smaller house. Actually, it landed on the larger house and
16 destroyed it completely; but not only that house. It destroyed the
17 smaller house as well and another 11 houses in the general area within
18 the radius of 100 to 200 metres. It blew away the roofs, it blew out the
19 windows and the doors, and the doorjambs and window-panes, and it also
20 blew away the roof tiles from all these houses.
21 MR. GAYNOR: Can we -- sorry.
22 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Gaynor. Excuse me.
23 Can we go into private session briefly.
24 [Private session]
25 (redacted)
Page 8269
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 [Open session]
18 JUDGE KWON: Does it mean that you also tender the public version
19 of that?
20 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, we will prepare a public version of that.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
22 MR. GAYNOR: Can I ask for page 15 of this document, please.
23 Just the B/C/S.
24 Q. Could you describe briefly your -- first of all, did you put the
25 number markings on the ground, as photographed in this picture?
Page 8270
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. What does this particular photograph depict?
3 A. This photograph was made in the interior of the house, and it
4 shows the motor of the multi-barrel rocket-launcher, with a part of the
5 cylinder with the rocket charge, and then the scale indicator is placed
6 next to it so that you can see the size of the motor. 6 is marking some
7 fragments of this air-bomb. And then this number 8 is the connecting
8 sheet metal connecting the air-bomb to the rockets that were actually
9 propelling it.
10 MR. GAYNOR: Very well.
11 Could I now ask for a sketch. It's 65 ter 09756. And could I
12 ask that it not be broadcast.
13 If we could go to pages 4 and 5 of the sketch, please.
14 If we could also show the next page. I don't know if that's
15 possible.
16 Q. On the right of this screen in front of you, Witness, do you
17 confirm that this is a sketch which you prepared which relates to this
18 incident?
19 A. Yes, this is a sketch that I made.
20 Q. Now, you've provided a legend with your sketch, so we won't go
21 through every single item on it. But could you explain the dotted line
22 that we see marked with the number 11? What does that represent?
23 A. The dotted line represents the direction from which the
24 projectile came.
25 Q. The letter S above the dotted line indicates the direction north;
Page 8271
1 is that right?
2 A. Yes, that is correct.
3 Q. Could you explain, briefly, the information that you relied upon
4 in drawing that dotted line?
5 A. I drew the dotted line on the basis of information provided to me
6 by one of the inspectors from the investigation team. I think his name
7 was Hakija Hasan Efendic. He, in turn, got this information on the basis
8 of a statement by an eye-witness who saw where the projectile was fired
9 from. He saw it flying and dropping at this location in Hrasnica.
10 MR. GAYNOR: If we could look at the previous page, please.
11 Q. Under item number 11, is it right that you've marked that the
12 direction of fire was north-east? Is that right?
13 A. Yes, it was in the direction of the north-east, yeah.
14 MR. GAYNOR: Could I ask now for 65 ter 09757. Again, I'd ask
15 that this not be broadcast.
16 Q. Witness, could you confirm that this is a report prepared by you
17 relating to this incident in Hrasnica?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Under paragraph 4, on the second line in the original, it says:
20 "The projectile was fired from the south-west, where Ilidza is
21 located."
22 Do you see that?
23 A. I see it.
24 Q. Could you explain the inconsistency between this and the sketch
25 that you created, which refers to the north-east as being the direction
Page 8272
1 of fire?
2 A. The north-west is referred to. The diagram refers to the
3 direction of fire as being from the north-west. I made a mistake here,
4 but I did mention the sector of Ilidza. That was just an error that was
5 due to speed. I did say, after the comma, that the projectile came from
6 the Ilidza area.
7 Q. Can I just clarify your answer there. Earlier on, you testified
8 that the direction in your sketch was indicated as the north-east, and
9 just now you've referred to the north-west. Your sketch - I can show it
10 to you again - did say the north-east; isn't that right? Would you like
11 to see your sketch again?
12 A. I would, yes.
13 MR. GAYNOR: Could I ask the Registrar, please, to bring back the
14 sketch which is 09756.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can see a dotted line on the
16 sketch that indicates the direction from which the projectile came, and
17 that is the north-west.
18 MR. GAYNOR:
19 Q. Sorry, that's absolutely right. My mistake, Witness.
20 Now, in your report, your report refers to the south-west. Now,
21 my question was, just to clarify the position: Your report said the
22 south-west and your sketch says the north-west. Which is correct?
23 A. What is correct is what is on the sketch, and that is that the
24 direction from where the projectile came was the north-west.
25 MR. GAYNOR: I'd now like to move to the next incident, Your
Page 8273
1 Honours, which is Incident G-11.
2 JUDGE KWON: It has been our practice to admit the documents when
3 they are dealt with, so why don't we admit those three documents.
4 MR. GAYNOR: Very well, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE KWON: We'll give the numbers. But you're going to produce
6 public versions in relation to all of them?
7 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, if that's -- I can do that, yes.
8 JUDGE KWON: That may be consistent with the idea of public
9 trials, so that we can have as many as possible in the public domain.
10 MR. GAYNOR: Yes. I would prefer that, yes.
11 JUDGE KWON: So we need to put them under seal, three of them
12 all?
13 MR. GAYNOR: Those three should be under seal, yes.
14 JUDGE KWON: The proper numbers will be given now.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours.
16 65 ter 09758 will be Exhibit P1793, under seal, and its public
17 version will be Exhibit P1794. 65 ter 09756 will be Exhibit P1795, under
18 seal, and its public version will be Exhibit P1796. And 65 ter 09757
19 will be Exhibit P1797, under seal, and its public version P1798.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
21 Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
22 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. Witness, I'd like to move now to the incident at Safeta Zajke
24 Street on the 24th of May, 1995. Do you recall your participation in the
25 investigation of that incident?
Page 8274
1 A. Yes, I do remember.
2 MR. GAYNOR: Could I ask for 65 ter 09773 to be brought up,
3 please, and not to be broadcast.
4 Q. Do you see the first page of a photo documentation file,
5 containing photographs which you took relating to this incident?
6 A. I see it, yes.
7 MR. GAYNOR: Could we have the third page, please. We can just
8 show the B/C/S for the purposes of this part.
9 Q. Before we look at the photographs, could you discuss -- could you
10 describe generally what kind of area Safeta Zajke Street is? What is
11 that -- what is the nature of that part of Sarajevo?
12 A. This is the street which is -- it stretches in a straight line
13 along the length of the north side of Sarajevo, and there are only family
14 houses along that street; family houses, residential buildings. It's a
15 residential area, mainly.
16 Q. If we focus in on the top photograph in front of you, could you
17 describe, briefly, what we see here?
18 A. This is a close-up of that location. You can see the place where
19 the projectile fell. The projectile dropped directly onto the
20 Safeta Zajke Street, on the asphalt surface. In the background, you can
21 see the damage on the houses. You can see these tyres that are strewn
22 about and so on.
23 Q. Now, there are other photographs in this file, which I won't show
24 you, which show quite a lot of tyres. Can you explain what you know
25 about those tyres?
Page 8275
1 A. There is a car repair shop in that place, also a tyre repair
2 shop. It's a place where cars are repaired, changes of tyres are done,
3 so these are all activities related to car repair and maintenance.
4 MR. GAYNOR: Could we look at the photograph which is lower down
5 on the same page, please.
6 Q. Could you describe what is depicted in this picture?
7 A. Number 1 marks the place where the projectile dropped, also the
8 parts of the projectile. These are engines and the containers that
9 contain the rocket fuel. Number 2 marks the crater in the asphalt, which
10 was in the form of a funnel, in the form of an elongated cylinder.
11 Q. You placed the numbered markings at this location and took this
12 photograph; is that right?
13 A. Yes, I placed the numbers and I made the photograph.
14 MR. GAYNOR: Could I ask for the seventh page, please.
15 Q. In photograph 11, which is on the top -- could we focus in on
16 that, please.
17 Could you describe what we see here?
18 A. This is the place where the projectile dropped. An arrow
19 indicates the direction from which the projectile came. This is an arrow
20 that is marked in chalk on the asphalt. I made the photograph in the
21 direction of the arrow. So the direction is that of the arrow, in the
22 direction of this elongated funnel shape created by the projectile. In
23 the background, you see the damaged house of Milica Vucicevic in the
24 street of Safeta Zajke, number 41 [Realtime translation read in error
25 "51"]. The house is still there today.
Page 8276
1 Q. To make it easier to see, could you circle the line indicating
2 the direction on --
3 A. Safeta Zajke, it's wrong, it's wrong in the translation into
4 English here. The number is 41, not 51.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, could you mark the direction of fire?
6 JUDGE KWON: Could you wait until the usher comes to assist you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Marks] [Interpretation] This is the direction of
8 the fire, and you can also see chalk marks, an arrow made of chalk, on
9 the asphalt. You can see that. And then a little bit in front of that,
10 you can clearly see the funnel shape created by the projectile.
11 MR. GAYNOR:
12 Q. In this specific instance, who determined the direction of fire?
13 A. In this specific case, it was easy to establish the direction of
14 fire because you could see the funnel. I did it, with the assistance of
15 the people from the KDZ who were there. Durmo Salko was one of those
16 people there.
17 Q. Is it correct to say that it wasn't your -- generally speaking,
18 one of your duties to determine direction of fire?
19 A. Yes. My duty, in general, was not to establish the direction of
20 the fire. This is something that is usually done by the people from the
21 KDZ and by experts, forensic experts, ballistics experts. They are
22 trained for this work. They are well-familiar with explosive devices,
23 and they know what kind of effects they produce. And in cases like this,
24 when a projectile drops, they always came with us to look at the area to
25 see if any of the mine or explosive devices are left over.
Page 8277
1 In this specific case, there was --
2 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, that's sufficient.
3 Could I ask that this photograph be admitted? It can be a public
4 exhibit.
5 JUDGE KWON: We'll be admitting this 65 ter 9773 under seal as
6 Exhibit P1799, and 1800 for a -- is it a public version?
7 MR. GAYNOR: Yeah, it can be public. There's no need to have an
8 under-sealed version of this marked version.
9 JUDGE KWON: No, not this marked --
10 MR. GAYNOR: Sorry, yes.
11 JUDGE KWON: The entire report.
12 MR. GAYNOR: I understand, yes.
13 JUDGE KWON: And we'll admit this marked photo as Exhibit 1801.
14 But if you, Mr. Witness, kindly put the date, which is 20th of October,
15 and your signature on the bottom of this.
16 MR. GAYNOR: Perhaps not the signature, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Why don't you put your witness number, which
18 is 166.
19 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
20 JUDGE KWON: And today's date is 20th of --
21 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
22 JUDGE KWON: Time flies, Mr. Witness.
23 I think that's it for today, Mr. Gaynor.
24 MR. GAYNOR: Very well, Mr. President. Thank you.
25 JUDGE KWON: Since we are not sitting for the remainder of this
Page 8278
1 week and next Monday's holiday, the next sitting will be on Tuesday next
2 week at 9.00.
3 Mr. Witness, I apologise for your inconveniences, but I hope you
4 would understand the difficulties the Chambers have in terms of
5 scheduling. So during that break, you are not supposed to discuss with
6 anybody else about your testimony. Do you understand that?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
9 The hearing is now adjourned.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.
12 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of
13 October, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25