101026ED

Page 8287

1 the exhibits which were admitted under seal in the previous proceedings,

2 we would move for them to be admitted under seal in these proceedings as

3 well. They're all marked on the list. And those, with the exception

4 that I've noted which were admitted publicly, can be admitted publicly in

5 this trial.

6 JUDGE KWON: Any objections from the Defence?

7 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President, other than the one that deals

8 with the unscheduled incident that I indicated previously.

9 JUDGE KWON: One of the associated exhibits is a video-clip,

10 which 65 ter number is 40086. Has it been up-loaded in the e-court?

11 Just --

12 MR. GAYNOR: We'll confirm that. We have provided it to the

13 Trial Chamber on a CD version as well.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

15 Then they would be all admitted, and the exhibit numbers will be

16 circulated to the parties in due course by the Court Deputy.

17 Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.

18 Mr. Karadzic.

19 Mr. Witness, you will be asked further questions by the Defence.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Good morning to everyone. Good morning to you, Witness.

24 A. Good morning.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before I begin, just for the sake

Page 8288

1 of formality, I'd like to remind everyone that we have at least five

2 major incidents to deal with, plus some general issues that pertain to

3 the witness, himself. Therefore, it might again bring us into the

4 situation that we are pressed for time.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Witness, let me ask you straightforward about the 4th of

7 February incidents, because it's fresh in your memory. That was in 1994.

8 Did that happen one day before the major incident called "Markale 1"?

9 A. I cannot tell you that. And, believe me, I cannot remember all

10 the dates from 16 years before.

11 Q. Thank you. In the amalgamated statement, it is stated in your

12 answer that you were a forensic technician. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What is your educational background? What do you need in order

15 to become that?

16 A. In order to acquire the status of a forensic technician, it is

17 necessary to finish secondary engineering school. And after that, once

18 you join the police, you have to attend a special police course, which I

19 did, and which lasted six months. After that, you take an exam or a

20 series of exams, and eventually you get the status of the criminal

21 investigation technician or a forensic technician.

22 Q. Thank you. So, in other words, can you tell me what would be the

23 role of the forensic technician during an investigation? What is he

24 exactly doing?

25 A. In the course of investigation, a forensic technician is an

Page 8289

1 individual who goes along with a group of investigators to the crime

2 scene, and his task, first and foremost, is of a technical nature.

3 Q. What is he doing, exactly?

4 A. His first task would be to photograph the scene, to draw a sketch

5 of the scene, and prepare a forensic and criminal investigation report.

6 He also collects all the evidence on the spot and hands it over to the

7 investigations [as interpreted] and experts for further expert analysis.

8 Q. So all of this is done by him on the spot?

9 A. No. What he does on the spot is the bulk of the work that he has

10 to do, and, of course, all the paperwork will have to be done in an

11 office.

12 Q. Is this something that's done with a ruler, these precise

13 actions, or is this done in the office?

14 A. Well, there is a rough sketch made on the site which is measured.

15 The precise dimensions are entered, measured by a tape measure.

16 Everything -- all the data is entered on the sketch. And then at the

17 office, the actual sketch is made using a ruler, using the same

18 measurements that were taken at the scene.

19 Q. Thank you. And then everything is revised and the forensic

20 report is drafted; is that correct?

21 A. There is no revision. What was observed on the scene is written

22 in the criminal technical investigation report.

23 Q. But if there's a mistake made, it's something that can be

24 corrected in the office?

25 A. Well, you cannot correct any errors.

Page 8290

1 Q. Is it important, the time and the actual situation on the scene?

2 Is the time and the place of coming to the scene important?

3 A. The best is to come to the scene of the incident immediately when

4 the incident happens. Usually, we would come to the scene as soon as the

5 police out in the field reports to us that an incident has taken place.

6 Then a team is composed, headed by an inspector who is leading that group

7 of people, and we go to the scene of the incident. If it's a more

8 serious crime where there is a person who has been killed or injured,

9 then an investigative judge and an investigator would also accompany or

10 be part of the team, a doctor too, forensic experts would come also,

11 because they are important when we are talking about this type of crime.

12 Q. Thank you. And this is a rule during peacetime as well, isn't

13 it?

14 A. Yes, the procedure is the same during war and peace.

15 Q. You mentioned that you had additional training that focused on

16 war crimes. What did that involve?

17 A. We didn't have any additional training that would cover war

18 crimes.

19 Q. So then -- I have to wait for the interpretation.

20 The incident that occurred during the war, did you treat them

21 just like any other incident that occurred during peacetime?

22 A. Yes, precisely, that is it.

23 Q. And did you establish if there were any alterations or changes on

24 the scene?

25 A. Yes. Sometimes we wouldn't immediately go to the scene of the

Page 8291

1 incident. We would go a little later. And we would have to record that

2 in the report, that we came to the scene later.

3 Q. Was this a rule or an exception?

4 A. It was a rule to record such information. However, the rule was

5 that we would immediately go to the scene of the incident.

6 Q. Yes. So the exception would be to go to the scene of the

7 incident later?

8 A. Yes. We would only go later only in the case when there was

9 intense shelling underway or when it was very dangerous to go to the

10 scene. We would not wish to endanger the lives of the people in the

11 investigation team.

12 Q. Thank you. And which part of the forensic report could we say

13 was yours? Which part are you responsible for?

14 A. I am responsible for the photographing -- the photographs taken

15 at the scene, the diagram, and the criminal investigation technical

16 report. However, it was my duty also to compile any traces and hand over

17 any traces of the incident for testing and expert examination.

18 Q. And can you please tell us: Why is it that in all of these

19 incidents, we don't have any photographs or records of the victims?

20 There is no sketch on the ground. There is no relational data. Why is

21 there no such information in the reports for any of these cases?

22 A. Yes, you are correct. In peacetime, we would precisely mark the

23 outline where the victim lay, in chalk. We would mark the position of

24 the victim, the surrounding objects, the area. And the investigation at

25 the scene would be conducted thoroughly, it would take a long time.

Page 8292

1 However, when a shell strikes and kills all the people around at that

2 location, those who survived automatically -- it's a question of

3 survival. It's some kind of God's will to save the lives of people.

4 Those people simply get up and they want to help those who are injured.

5 They want to put them in cars and transport them to the hospital.

6 Q. What about the dead?

7 A. More or less, everyone is taken to the hospital first, because

8 you cannot establish with 100 per cent certainty who is dead and who is

9 alive, because most of the shrapnel injuries are quite terrible. People

10 are exposed to horrible lacerations and cuts, there is heavy bleeding. A

11 piece of shrapnel would irregularly cut the human body. There would be

12 lots of blood vessel injuries. So all the people are taken straight to

13 the hospital, where the doctors try to help them. After that, if they

14 survive, their treatment continues. If not, they are taken to the

15 morgue, which is part of the hospital, the Kosevo Hospital or any other

16 hospital.

17 Q. At one point in time here, you said -- perhaps this is the

18 Trg Prijateljstva incident. You said that there were no dead bodies, but

19 you did observe traces of blood.

20 A. Yes, yes. When you come to the scene, you would see parts of

21 bodies, you would see pools of blood, literally pools of blood; not

22 dripping blood, but pools of blood. You would see pieces of the body

23 parts, of the skull, bone fragments, body parts, parts of clothing,

24 shoes. I mean, you really are aware that you are in a horrible place.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear Mr. Karadzic's

Page 8293

1 question.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did photograph it; not

3 everything, but --

4 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Witness. The

5 interpreters were not able to follow the question and answer because you

6 are overlapping each other. Please, again, put a pause between the

7 question and answer.

8 The interpreters couldn't hear your question, Mr. Karadzic.

9 Could you please repeat it.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] I asked, Why didn't you

12 photograph that? And then the witness said, I did photograph it; not

13 everything.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. This is something that is quite unclear to me, the quite obvious

16 absence of these photographs in your forensic reports. Did IFOR [as

17 interpreted] allow the scene to be disturbed so much that these elements

18 are not shown or are missing from the photographs? Not "IFOR," I didn't

19 say "IFOR."

20 Did you permit -- did anyone permit; not IFOR, anyone? How did

21 it happen that these photographs and, generally, these pieces of forensic

22 evidence are so denuded that there are no key pieces of data; how many

23 people were killed, relational aspects, the location of the bodies? Why

24 is it that in peacetime this is something that you did thoroughly? You

25 couldn't appear before a trial chamber without this complete forensic

Page 8294

1 data, without sketches, without all the information; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, you are correct. However, I repeat, when such an incident

3 takes place, when people all around are screaming and moaning, lying in

4 pools of their own blood, the citizens who survived, who are close by,

5 who are at the location, would try to help them, to transport them to the

6 hospital as soon as possible in order for them to be given medical

7 assistance so that they don't bleed to death. This is a very simple

8 reason, because it's just a question of life and death.

9 Q. Witness, sir, I completed my medical studies in Sarajevo, and all

10 of my medical education, other than some parts of my psychiatric

11 training, I completed all of that in Sarajevo. How is it that in your

12 testimony, and even in footage, you could see the wounded and the dead

13 being dragged? You said that you even saw traces of bodies being

14 dragged. Where in the world does it happen that these bodies are

15 dragged?

16 A. No, no, no, I said that people are transferred to the closest

17 vehicle and transported to the hospital, where medical assistance is

18 given to them. So the point is to provide medical assistance to a

19 wounded or injured person in order to prevent bleeding and to help that

20 person survive. It's a -- it's a struggle to keep a person alive. These

21 are minutes -- seconds involved that would decide whether somebody would

22 survive or not. I mean, it's a question -- it's a matter of life and

23 death. You're a doctor. You ought to know that.

24 Q. But you said that you saw bloody tracks of bodies being dragged

25 along the ground, and we saw in video footage that people -- bodies were

Page 8295

1 being dragged on the ground. So Sarajevo medicine would not permit such

2 bad practices. Sarajevo medicine, the medicine practiced in Sarajevo,

3 was good.

4 Anyway, let's look at page 8 of this amalgamated statement, where

5 you say that sometimes you would establish the directions approximately;

6 you were not quite sure about the direction. Was direction established

7 in these cases, and was the distance from which the projectile came also

8 determined?

9 A. My primary task was not to establish the direction from which the

10 projectile came, because this was something that was done more precisely

11 by ballistics experts, people from the Counter-Sabotage Protection and

12 forensic ballistics experts. So there are experts who were dealing with

13 the direction from which the projectile came. I, personally, don't know

14 that anyone was concerned with the distance covered by the projectile.

15 This is something that I did not deal with. I didn't take that into

16 account.

17 Q. Thank you. And these reports, including all the investigation

18 material, was that something that made a complete whole, a set?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. On page 11, line 20, you said that there were some official

21 photographers. Other than yourself, were there any other people taking

22 photographs?

23 A. There was no one else photographing, other than me, unless in

24 some cases there were two technicians that came to the scene, so they

25 helped each other. However, within our Criminal Investigation Department

Page 8296

1 at the Sarajevo CSB, we had a person who filmed all the incidents with a

2 camera. When this was necessary, he would make a camera recording at the

3 scene.

4 Q. Thank you. You mentioned in a number of places here that,

5 whenever possible, UNPROFOR was there. Did UNPROFOR also conduct their

6 own investigations at the scene?

7 A. I think that they did. They made their own notes and they gave

8 their own findings and opinion about each individual incident.

9 Q. And which incidents were filmed by video camera?

10 A. The video footage was made for incidents where there was a large

11 number of casualties, where a large number of people were killed, where

12 many people were killed. That's where the scene was filmed by video

13 camera as well.

14 Q. And for which of these incidents is there video footage?

15 A. I really couldn't tell you exactly which incidents, but I am sure

16 that wherever there were a large number of victims, there was also video

17 footage.

18 Q. I apologise. I'm waiting for the interpreter as well.

19 There was a large number of victims at the Dobrinja incident. Do

20 you have video footage for that?

21 A. Yes, I think that we do.

22 Q. What about Incident G-11 of the 24th of May?

23 A. I'm not sure that we do.

24 Q. What about Majdanska Street, again on the 24th of May, 1995?

25 A. I cannot answer this question because I'm not sure.

Page 8297

1 Q. What about Trg Medjunarodnog Prijateljstva? Is there a video

2 report on that?

3 A. No, there is no such report for Trg Medjunarodnog Prijateljstva,

4 I think so.

5 Q. What about Hrasnica; is there a video footage of that?

6 A. I also know nothing about Hrasnica. Trust me, this was not part

7 of my remit, because I didn't follow it for that reason. And, again, as

8 I say, it was 16 years ago, 17 years ago.

9 Q. Thank you. The Defence fully agree that you look into your

10 contemporaneous reports in order to assist you.

11 Let me ask you this: Did you follow the testimony given by

12 Mr. Sabljica which took place recently in this court?

13 A. No, I didn't. All I saw was on the news, that he appeared as a

14 witness.

15 Q. Did you consult with Mr. Sabljica afterwards?

16 A. No, no, I didn't speak to him in any way whatsoever, nor did I

17 consult with him.

18 Q. Well, that's not forbidden. I'm just asking.

19 Let's now move to the Dobrinja incident of the 4th of February,

20 1994. Do you know now why this report is wrong?

21 A. I don't know why the report is wrong, other than the

22 wrongly-marked north, which I corrected.

23 Q. Now we have a new northerly direction. So if you change it from

24 90 degrees to some 30 or 40 degrees, does that affect the direction from

25 which the shell came?

Page 8298

1 A. No, it doesn't. I did not plot the direction onto my sketch from

2 which the shell came because that part of the work, that is, to establish

3 the direction, was done by ballistic experts.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please now have in e-court

5 P1802, and I suppose it shouldn't be broadcast.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. But they determined the direction from which it came based on the

8 bearing measurements that they had; is that correct?

9 A. No. I was there while they were doing their job, and they

10 observed and reviewed the traces left by the explosion of a

11 120-millimetre shell. And based on these traces left on the concrete

12 surface, they determined the direction from which the projectile came.

13 Q. Thank you. This should not be broadcast.

14 Now, please focus on this. Can you see, in the left top corner,

15 where it says "Zgrada," "Building"?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It's located in the south, and the point of impact is north of

18 that building, according to what you marked?

19 A. Well, to tell you honestly, at that moment when we were doing all

20 this, I was not familiar with that particular suburb of the city of

21 Sarajevo. We had to conduct our investigation quickly and under

22 tremendous pressure, so my duty was to take photographs, to draw a

23 sketch, and just to pray to God not to be killed.

24 Q. Very well. Now, we don't have to hurry. You did this in your

25 office by using a ruler; is that correct?

Page 8299

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you did that on the basis of the sketch that you made on the

3 spot?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. So let's try and agree on this. The point of impact on the

6 playground is on the northern edge of that playground; is that correct?

7 A. I cannot give you a correct answer.

8 Q. Well, it says number 1.

9 A. But would you say north from the edge? You have to tell me north

10 from which particular point.

11 Q. If this is how you draw it, the diagonal of this playground, the

12 bearing is approximately zero, viewed from north?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. This line that you drew indicating north, can you transpond

15 [as interpreted] it to the playground or draw another one in the

16 playground so that we have a diagonal line in the playground placed

17 facing north, and that at its northerly corner was the place where the

18 shell fell?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Thank you. This building above on the drawing, is it true that

21 another shell, number 2 or whatever the sequence was, landed on its

22 northerly side?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And number 3 fell on the westerly side of the building, itself?

25 A. That would be the south side of the building.

Page 8300

1 Q. If you look at the axis of the building, it intersects with the

2 northerly one?

3 A. But then it would be a diagonal. So number 3 is on the south.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now have 1D0291.

5 I'm sorry, I'm really sorry. Can we have it back? The drawing,

6 I mean. Can we have it back? P1802.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Please, can you mark here with an arrow the direction where

9 Lukavica is situated?

10 A. No, no, I can't do that.

11 Q. Why not?

12 A. Lukavica should be approximately due south or south-east, roughly

13 speaking.

14 Q. Can you mark it now, then?

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Well, this is exactly south?

17 A. Perhaps south, south-east.

18 Q. Thank you. Can you put the letter L to indicate "Lukavica," and

19 after that we can admit this into evidence.

20 A. [Marks]

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we do that, Your Honours, under

22 seal?

23 JUDGE KWON: I just noted that page 20 in B/C/S and page 11 in

24 English of 65 ter 9617, which is a report of this incident, bears the

25 same sketch without his signature, so I'm wondering why we have to admit

Page 8301

1 all these marked maps under seal. But we'll do that in the meantime,

2 we'll admit it under seal.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D798, under seal, Your Honours.

4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. Why were you standing on the north and doing this sketch when it

6 is customary to stand in the south and face north?

7 MR. GAYNOR: Objection, Mr. President.

8 I don't believe there's any evidence that it was customary to

9 stand in the south and face north.

10 JUDGE KWON: I agree.

11 Could you reformulate your question, Mr. Karadzic.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Were you standing there in the north and facing south when you

14 were making this sketch?

15 A. I made this sketch very quickly, and the first thing that I did

16 was to draw the buildings in the space, how their layout is, including

17 the garage and the streets. Only after that did I plot in the northerly

18 direction.

19 Q. Can you mark the point where you stood?

20 A. No, I cannot, because the shells landed in a wide area. We're

21 not talking about a few metres, we're talking about several hundreds of

22 metres. So this is an entire complex of buildings that we are talking

23 about.

24 Q. But the person making the drawing was standing where? Where were

25 you standing when you imagined yourself in this space?

Page 8302

1 A. Yes, you're right, but I did not indicate the standing point

2 here, nor did I include it in the legend. And, again, I'm telling you

3 the reason for that was because three shells landed at three different

4 places several hundred metres apart; therefore, I did not make this

5 sketch properly and include the standing point.

6 Q. But you did this in your office; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, but the majority of the work was done on the ground. And it

8 is crucial that one makes a correct sketch on the spot, and then you use

9 a ruler only to provide the description.

10 Q. Did you use the city map of Sarajevo in doing so?

11 A. No, I didn't, not at that time.

12 Q. Not even when you went back to your office?

13 A. No, no. You know, there were so many incidents that were

14 happening one after another so quickly. We were under huge pressure, our

15 lives were in danger, and this was a very stressful situation.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please have 1D2191.

17 Thank you.

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Can you see the street of Oslobodilaca Sarajeva, and do you agree

20 that's 353?

21 A. I can't see "353" anywhere.

22 Q. Look at this red dot. It's at Mimar Sinana Bulevar, and then it

23 says "353" in the direction of the airport.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't catch the answer of the

25 witness.

Page 8303

1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Witness, the interpreters couldn't hear your

2 answer. What did you say?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that at first glance, I

4 couldn't find the street 353.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. But now you can see it?

7 A. Yes, I can, yes.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to be

9 assisted in order to draw some elements into this map; the garage, and

10 everything that was happening.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't answer this question

12 because I didn't visit this location for 17 years. Therefore, I'm unable

13 to answer your question.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. But you did provide an answer to the Prosecutor when he showed

16 you something similar. Can you mark here the direction pointing at

17 Lukavica?

18 A. [Marks]. This is the direction of Lukavica.

19 Q. Can you mark north -- direction north along the Street 353?

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Thank you. Where did the incident happen; on the left- or the

22 right-hand side of the street?

23 A. I suppose that the incident took place on both sides of the

24 street.

25 Q. It doesn't say that on your sketch. There is a garage and so on.

Page 8304

1 Can you please -- on which side of the street of Oslobodilaca Sarajeva

2 was this playground as we look at it? Was it on the left- or the

3 right-hand side?

4 A. I cannot say that because I cannot recognise that place at all.

5 I wasn't there for the past 17 years. I'm sorry, but I cannot answer

6 that.

7 Q. And do you agree that the Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street exits onto

8 the Bulevar Mimar Sinana Street?

9 A. Yes, it does.

10 Q. Do you agree that it does not touch the Hamdije Kapidzica Street

11 at all?

12 A. Yes, that is correct, it doesn't.

13 Q. Thank you. And why does it then say in the statement that the

14 incident occurred at the crossroads of Hamdije Kapidzica and Oslobodilaca

15 Grada, as it says here? Is there a street called Oslobodilaca Grada?

16 A. Well, I really couldn't tell you that.

17 Q. If you do have your report, please look at it. It says

18 "Oslobodilaca Grada Street," and the Hamdije Kapidzica Street is also

19 mentioned, the intersection of those two streets, which actually is not

20 shown here.

21 A. I don't have the report in front of me. All I can say is that

22 that day, I came to the scene, I quickly made a sketch, and I ran from

23 there as far -- fast as my feet would carry me.

24 Q. Can you now indicate on this map this erroneous direction of the

25 north, which is to the -- which lays 90 degrees in relation to

Page 8305

1 Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street?

2 A. I cannot do that because I cannot make a connection between my

3 diagram and this diagram that you are showing to me now.

4 Q. All right, thank you. Then can you just put the initials --

5 actually, your number here, so that we don't have to tender this document

6 under seal.

7 JUDGE KWON: Your number is KDZ166.

8 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. In order to be fair, in your report it says "Ulica Oslobodilaca

11 Sarajeva" and Dzavaharlal Nehru Street." So you agree that Hamdije

12 Kapidzica Street was earlier called Jawaharlal Nehru Street?

13 A. I cannot answer that question.

14 Q. But if Hamdije Kapidzica Street was earlier called Jawaharlal

15 Nehru Street, then that is the one that the report refers to?

16 A. I cannot answer that question. I'm not familiar with the streets

17 in that part of town at all. I have no idea how to answer your question.

18 JUDGE KWON: The marked map will be admitted.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D799, Your Honours.

20 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President.

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

22 MR. GAYNOR: I just wanted to note that Mr. Karadzic has not yet

23 provided any information as to the date of the street pattern set out in

24 this map. The date -- the map information set out in the Prosecution's

25 map in relation to this incident dates from 1994, so I want to note for

Page 8306

1 the record that there's no indication as to when this street pattern

2 dates from.

3 JUDGE KWON: The Defence must have heard your submission, but can

4 you answer that question, Mr. Karadzic?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that we showed the previous

6 witness the list of old and new streets, and that Hamdije Kapidzica at an

7 earlier map is Jawaharlal Nehru Street. At least, I think we established

8 the position.

9 JUDGE KWON: Instead of making submissions, look into the matter

10 and come back with an answer later.

11 Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

12 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, I wanted to note - we might as well clarify it

13 now - there are two issues, one is the old and new street names.

14 Mr. Karadzic's list which he's previously provided does not in fact agree

15 with the Prosecution's list of old and new street names for Sarajevo.

16 That's point number 1.

17 Point number 2 is the street pattern, the actual layout of the

18 streets. That's the point I was making. Mr. Karadzic hasn't provided

19 information as to when this street pattern dates from. Thank you.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness, sir, do you remember that Dobrinja was originally the

22 Olympic Village and that the streets and the buildings were completed in

23 1984? Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And do you know if any of these streets changed their position

Page 8307

1 from 1984 to today?

2 A. I don't know. Probably not.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. But I do know for a fact that the street names were changed.

5 Q. Yes, that is correct. We agree. Do you remember what was said

6 in the report about where the shells came from?

7 A. As far as I can remember, it was said in the report that the

8 shells came from the direction of Lukavica.

9 Q. In that case, which direction would that be?

10 A. That would be south-east.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So when you marked it, Lukavica is

12 to the south-east from that area.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It's north-east from

14 there.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D0 -- actually,

16 65 ter 09617, please. It's an unsigned sketch.

17 Actually, we would need to look at the signed sketch. This is

18 P1802. I think that's better, the one that has the cardinal directions

19 marked. P1802.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Can you now look at number 2. There is a building there. Along

22 the building, the front of the building, a grenade dropped. It should

23 have arrived from the south-east. How could that shell have come from

24 the south-east and impacted the very edge of the building? Did it pass

25 through the building?

Page 8308

1 A. It couldn't penetrate the building, the shell. That's that.

2 Q. And knowing where the north is, can you now mark where south-east

3 is? East is straight to the right from --

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. How could this shell have come from the south-east and landed in

6 front of the building that is several storeys high?

7 A. It could have come from the east.

8 Q. Can you please mark the east, then, so that we can see?

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. How did this shell land coming from above or over the garage?

11 And what about this number 3; how could that have landed over this

12 building?

13 A. They could have impacted there without any problems.

14 JUDGE KWON: Shall we put "S-E" for the direction of south-east

15 and "E" for the direction of east?

16 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. So where is Lukavica here, then?

19 A. May I look at the other map now, please?

20 JUDGE KWON: By all means.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you something.

22 In the previous map, where there was the Lukavica road, it was

23 easier for me to determine where Lukavica is. Now it's a little bit more

24 difficult.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8309

1 Q. Well, you said it was on the south-east. Is Lukavica in the

2 south-east?

3 A. Well, Lukavica is here in the east, east in Dobrinja. Actually,

4 in relation to Dobrinja, Lukavica is in the east.

5 JUDGE KWON: There seems to be a technical difficulty in the

6 French translation. One of the Bench members is not receiving French

7 translation.

8 I note the time. Shall we break, if it is convenient?

9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll save this and give it a new number.

11 But, yes, again it should be under seal.

12 Take a look at the pages I referred to earlier, 65 ter 9 -- I

13 forgot the number. But think about whether we can use it.

14 We'll break.

15 What's the number for this?

16 THE REGISTRAR: That is Exhibit D800, under seal.

17 JUDGE KWON: And we'll break for a bit more than 20 minutes, and

18 we'll resume at a quarter to 11.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Q. Witness, let us wrap up with this incident. Now, tell us,

24 please, was this sketch of yours an official part of the on-site

25 report -- investigation report, or, rather, was that the only sketch that

Page 8310

1 was attached to the report?

2 A. I don't know if it was the only sketch.

3 Q. Did anyone else make a sketch, and does it differ from yours?

4 A. I only know that I made the sketch.

5 Q. And it is part of this report, and it served as a sketch of the

6 site, the impact site?

7 A. Yes, that's correct. Would you allow me just to take another

8 look at this sketch, please?

9 Q. We do have an unsigned version, and maybe it would be a good idea

10 to show you that.

11 A. No. Could you keep this one, please?

12 Q. All right. That's 1802, P1802. Would you like it to be rotated

13 by 180 degrees so that we can have the north where it should be?

14 A. Very well.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we rotate it, please.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Now we see that the street is between the two buildings. This is

18 the Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street, where we see the number, the stamp

19 number?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Would you please draw a line through the middle of that street.

22 A. Well, can I just say something? I cannot recall precisely every

23 detail of this on-site investigation, so that my answers will not be of

24 the quality desired.

25 Q. Well, can this sketch be of the quality desired, the sketch that

Page 8311

1 served the investigators to draw their conclusions? What kind of

2 conclusions could they draw, in view of the fact that the north is marked

3 the way it is here?

4 A. I don't know what they could -- what conclusions they could draw.

5 That was really up to them, not up to me.

6 Q. Would you now please take a look at number 2, Witness. How can

7 it be that the shell landed by the very edge of the building from the

8 north, coming in from the north?

9 A. Well, let me tell you this: The shell could land -- could have

10 landed like this, coming from the east, not from the north. In that

11 case, there wouldn't have been any problem.

12 Q. Well, do we see the east now, the cardinal point of east? Now,

13 please take a look at the way you indicated east and north. There isn't

14 even a 90-degree angle there between them.

15 A. Well, I can -- I can do that, I can mark it better.

16 Q. Well, please use a green pen, and maybe you can indicate.

17 A. Well, let me indicate where the east is [marks] in relation to

18 what I marked as north. Now here we see that they are correlated.

19 Q. Would you now please draw a line through the middle of this

20 street, Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street, in green.

21 A. Yes, I will. Here it is [marks].

22 Q. To the left we see one building, on the right-hand side another

23 building, and then behind the building there's a courtyard; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And the building that we see lying horizontally as we see it

Page 8312

1 here, it lies almost east-west; correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like to tender

4 this.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, actually, this building, its

6 orientation is south-east, approximately, south-east.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Do you know what your vantage point was when you took the photos?

9 Do you know where you were?

10 A. No, no.

11 Q. Would you please now mark Lukavica here on this sketch.

12 A. Well, it is to the east, and bearing south-east. Lukavica is a

13 large area.

14 Q. Well, could you mark the barracks, the military installations?

15 Would you mark that?

16 A. Sir, I was a student in Lukavica, and I'm very familiar with

17 Lukavica. It's an entire complex of buildings, of barracks. They're all

18 one next to the other. It's one compound. There are roads between them

19 and then the next barracks lies, so there's a whole series of barracks

20 there.

21 Q. Very well. Would you mark it, then, please. Mark the Lukavica

22 area in relation to the incident site.

23 A. Well, this is -- this part would be Lukavica [marks].

24 Q. Well, no, this is Dobrinja still. But could you just indicate

25 the direction of Lukavica?

Page 8313

1 A. [Marks]

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we please tender

3 this? If the witness can just date and sign it, although I see we have

4 it. But perhaps because of these green markings, we should have a new

5 exhibit adopted.

6 JUDGE KWON: Exhibit D801, under seal.

7 Let's move on.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 09617,

9 page 26.

10 THE REGISTRAR: This has been admitted as Exhibit P1710, Your

11 Honours.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Are you familiar with this photo? Have you taken it or -- and

14 what does it depict?

15 A. Yes, I know this photograph, but I believe that a colleague of

16 mine took it. I'm not actually sure whether it was me or Sead Besic, a

17 crime investigation technician, who actually took this photo. And it

18 depicts the spot -- the point of impact of a mortar shell marked with

19 number 1, and then a street plan of Sarajevo was placed there.

20 Q. So, in other words, you did use a street plan of Sarajevo or a

21 map of Sarajevo when you made this sketch?

22 A. Well, no, this is part of the investigation, and the portion that

23 had to do with the placing of the map and the compass there is something

24 that the investigators did. Mr. Sabljica and Zlatko Medjedovic, they are

25 the ones who are responsible for that. I only took photos. And I'm not

Page 8314

1 even sure that I was the one who took this photo. It could have been my

2 colleague.

3 Q. Tell us, then, what is the direction of this edge, the edge of

4 this playground?

5 A. Well, the playground edge is approximately south-east. That's

6 the direction, south-easterly.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Can we now have page 3 [as interpreted] of this document, please.

9 I805 [as interpreted], 23, page 23. Page 23. The transcript says "3,"

10 but that's an error. Page 23, please.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Do you know this place?

13 A. I do, because that's the place where we conducted the on-site

14 investigation.

15 Q. Very well. Could you now please tell us what we see in this

16 photo?

17 A. Well, the photo shows the place where mortar shells landed.

18 Q. Could you tell us -- could you show the cardinal point north,

19 Witness?

20 A. No, I couldn't. Sorry.

21 Q. What about these buildings; how are they oriented in relation to

22 the playground? What is their orientation?

23 A. The northerly direction should be -- can I use the marker, the

24 pen?

25 Q. Yes, you can use the e-pen.

Page 8315

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. How do you know?

3 A. Well, as I look at the map of the city, and using the map, I

4 would say that this would be approximately the orientation.

5 Q. And we can see a path -- a pedestrian path there; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And it runs north-south?

8 A. Well, the pedestrian path does not run north-south purely. It's

9 a bit to the north-east, approximately.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now have 1D -- or, rather,

11 I would like to tender this into evidence. It was admitted as a P

12 exhibit, but with these markings it should be a new one.

13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I have to emphasise at this moment you

14 have to be more efficient in your cross-examination. You are dwelling on

15 still the north-east on these pictures and maps. I think you already

16 made a point, and you could have moved on, on other points, earlier on.

17 We'll admit this, this page.

18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D802, Your Honours.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Then we will move on to

20 a new topic.

21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Witness -- oh, we lost it without dating it, but

22 it doesn't matter because it's in the transcript.

23 Let's move on.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We'll move on to the

25 next incident.

Page 8316

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. In view of the fact that there is no other sketch in this entire

3 investigation report, we have to conclude that there was no additional

4 sketch; correct?

5 A. Well, if you say so.

6 Q. Well, if we did have another sketch, we would take a look at it.

7 Now, let's move on to the Medjunarodnog Prijateljstva Trg. Tell

8 us, please, when did you arrive on site there?

9 A. We arrived at the incident site 10 days after the incident,

10 itself, and that's because there was intense shelling and we were

11 prevented from getting there earlier without jeopardising our lives.

12 Q. Thank you. Do you know what the word "tekbir" means?

13 A. Of course.

14 Q. Could you tell us, please.

15 A. Yes, but I don't see what that has to do with anything in this

16 case.

17 Q. Well, did you ever hear of Operation Tekbir?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you know that on the 15th of June, a large operation was

20 launched, a 1st Corps operation, the Bosnia and Herzegovina Army

21 1st Corps? This was on the 15th of June, 1995.

22 A. No. I was a police officer. I was not an army member, I was a

23 policeman, so I did not know what the Supreme Command of the BH Army was

24 doing.

25 Q. Well, it was preparing for the operation earlier on, but on the

Page 8317

1 15th, the big operation began. How can you not know that when all the

2 three divisions were used in this operation, this major offensive, and --

3 the 12th, 14th and 16th Divisions took part in it. Do you know that it

4 was launched then, on the 15th of June?

5 A. No.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, let's take a look at 65 ter

7 09791. It may have been admitted previously. I don't know.

8 THE REGISTRAR: This has been admitted as Exhibit P431, under

9 seal.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if it is under seal, it

11 should not be broadcast in public.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Tell us, are you familiar with this official note?

14 A. Yes, I am.

15 Q. It says here that an on-site investigation was carried out 10

16 days after the incident.

17 A. Yes.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have a map, Map 1D2636.

19 1D2636.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Do you recognise this map, and can you mark on it the incident

22 site?

23 A. Yes, I do. This is the Alipasino Polje neighbourhood.

24 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, the witness has already confirmed the

25 location of the incident site for this incident, and he confirmed the

Page 8318

1 Prosecution's map showing the location. Perhaps Mr. Karadzic could ask

2 his questions based on that map. It might speed things up.

3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, why not.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that the Defence has the

5 right to test the credibility and reliability of the witness. For that

6 reason, we thought we might use another map. No hard feelings.

7 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Can you please mark precisely on this map where the incident took

10 place?

11 A. I cannot mark the incident site exactly on this map because the

12 buildings on Trg Medjunarodnog Prijateljstva are not plotted into this

13 map. This is a very rough map. This is a general map showing the street

14 and just a few buildings. Not all the buildings are shown in it.

15 Q. Right. In this map, can you then -- or do you agree that viewing

16 from left to right, we see Standard, Faro Electro [phoen] and Vranica?

17 A. Yes, yes, I can see.

18 Q. Then "UPI," "Zora," "TAM"?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Then "ZGP Bosna," "UP Distribution Centre," "Rumenka," [phoen]

21 "TAM," then "Energoinvest," "RMK Wire Factory," and so on and so forth;

22 is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Can you call this whole area, this belt, a

25 residential zone, or is it a purely industrial zone without a single

Page 8319

1 residential building?

2 A. This belt is an industrial zone. However, it is not purely

3 industrial. There are some parts where there are demolished buildings.

4 Q. Between Mese Selimovica and --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the names of

6 the streets?

7 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Could you repeat the last part of

8 your question, Mr. Karadzic?

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Can you please use a pencil and mark the whole length of

11 Safeta Zajke Street and then Mese Selimovica, and encircle the area that

12 I'm talking about.

13 A. Yes. This is Safeta Zajke Street [marks]. It stretches along

14 the length of the city. And below here is Mese Selimovica Street

15 [marks].

16 Q. So this is Stupsko Brdo, which was also held by the Serbs [as

17 interpreted] throughout the whole war, and it was important?

18 A. Of course.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is a mistake in the

20 transcript. They were not held by the Serbs, the name of Stupsko Brdo,

21 and it was important.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the Serbs did not hold it.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Now, you're not able to mark the incident site?

25 A. It's at Trg Medjunarodnog Prijateljstva. In the map, it's below

Page 8320

1 "PTT Engineering," somewhere in the middle of the

2 Trg Medjunarodnog Prijateljstva. However, this map is not a detailed

3 one, so I cannot mark it precisely. So, roughly speaking, around the

4 middle of this square.

5 Q. Do you also see the TV Radio-Television building, the Novi Grad

6 Assembly building and the Survey Institute?

7 A. Yes, they are on the right-hand side of the map.

8 Q. Can you please mark Majdanska Street --

9 A. This is Majdanska Street [marks].

10 Q. Thank you. Safeta Hadzica Street?

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Is this the incident place on Safeta Zajke, and with which street

13 does it intersect?

14 A. I think with Dolacka Street, roughly speaking. I'm not quite

15 sure. Anyway, either with Esada Midzica or Dolacka Street.

16 Q. Please mark it there between the two streets.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. So that's one incident?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Another one happened near Bitumenka; is that correct?

21 A. Well, actually, here it is closer to PTT Engineering building.

22 Q. One is on TV.

23 A. One is on Majdanska Street, behind the RTV building, the Assembly

24 building.

25 Q. Do you know which kind of military installations were based in

Page 8321

1 the Survey Institute?

2 A. There were survey maps.

3 Q. No, no. Was there anything else of a military nature housed in

4 the institute?

5 A. I don't know about that.

6 Q. Do you know where the police station was here?

7 A. Yes, I do. The police station was above the Municipal Assembly

8 building, or, rather, on the hill above it.

9 Q. To the south of it?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Do you see Geteova Street, and do you agree that it

12 used to be called Cetinjska Street?

13 A. I believe that Geteova Street was always called Geteova Street.

14 Q. How about Cetinjska and Klare Cetkin Streets?

15 A. I know that these streets existed under those names, but I don't

16 know exactly where they were.

17 Q. Thank you. We're going to use the transcript and not use other

18 notes.

19 Do you know what the RMK Wire Factory manufactured?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. You don't know that shells were being marked within this whole

22 complex?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Could you please put the date and the number 166.

25 A. You want me to put the date?

Page 8322

1 Q. Yes, the date and number 166 so that it doesn't have to be under

2 seal.

3 A. [Marks]

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted into

5 evidence?

6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Witness, you said you couldn't exactly mark the

7 area where the incident the 16th of June, 1995, took place, but could you

8 roughly circle the area which you said it's below the PTT Engineering and

9 somewhere in the middle of the street?

10 A. Yes, yes, I can [marks].

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Can you put "16" and "6."

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Now, you see Geteova Street. You'll need this map later for

15 marking, but can you mark Geteova Street now?

16 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, this will be saved as Exhibit D803.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 13564, 65 ter,

19 please. This is a Prosecution map.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Now, is number 15 the incident site?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. Is number 2 Bitumenka?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is number 20 the PTT Engineering building?

Page 8323

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Just a little patience, please.

3 How was it stated in the report concerning the direction from

4 which the shell came?

5 A. In my report, the shell came from the west.

6 Q. Directly from the west or maybe north-west?

7 A. West, north-west, roughly speaking.

8 Q. So if it came from the west or north-west, the trajectory does

9 not go through the PTT, but it goes either through Bitumenka building or

10 the student dormitory. Can you encircle the student dormitory section in

11 this map?

12 A. Yes, yes, yes, I can see them [marks]. I have encircled the

13 dormitory with the colour blue.

14 Q. Can you mark it with number 1.

15 A. [Marks]. I did that.

16 Q. Do you see the "Oslobodjenje" building?

17 A. Yes, I do. How shall I mark it?

18 Q. Encircle it and put the number 3.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Can you please now draw a line, according to what you deduced in

21 your report, corresponding to a north-westerly direction with respect to

22 the impact point?

23 A. [Marks]. I did it.

24 Q. Can you draw it all the way to the impact point?

25 A. Yes, I can do that [marks].

Page 8324

1 Q. Start from the impact point.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Okay, that's fine. According to the report, it flew over

4 Bitumenka. Do you know what was housed in Bitumenka building during the

5 war?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. You don't know that it served as a military facility for military

8 production?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Thank you. Can you please put the date and your signature.

11 A. [Marks]

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted?

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D804, Your Honours.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 09819 [as

16 interpreted]. I believe there's no signature there, and, therefore, it

17 can be broadcast. 09189.

18 MR. GAYNOR: The first page does have a signature. The second

19 and third pages can be broadcast, indeed.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go straight to page 3.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Are you familiar with this sketch?

23 A. Yes. This sketch represents the place where the projectile

24 landed next to a building number 10 at Trg Medjunarodnog Prijateljstva.

25 Q. Thank you. Can you please explain to everyone present -- you

Page 8325

1 mentioned the dimensions 1110 and 780, and in this particular case you

2 defined characteristic points with respect to the building.

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. By using this sketch, can you please mark the direction from

5 which the projectile arrived, or is it already marked? Is that number 4?

6 A. Yes, this dotted line marked "4" indicates the direction from

7 which the projectile came.

8 Q. And the north is correctly marked here; is that right?

9 A. Well, north should be corrected slightly upwards.

10 Q. Well, please do that.

11 A. [Marks]. In fact, that's how it should be.

12 Q. So number 4, this line, is -- indicates the line of the

13 direction, and it corresponds with the longer axis of the crater?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. Since we have entered some changes, can we please

16 have the date and number 166.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Is it possible that this projectile came from Lukavica?

19 A. In my opinion, no, it couldn't have come from Lukavica.

20 Q. In the summary, it is said that Incident 15 from the G list, the

21 projectile came from Lukavica. Table G. So something is not correct

22 here; is that right?

23 A. Yes. However, in the summary which was prepared by

24 Mr. Mujo Musagic, he says that, according to his opinion, the projectile

25 most likely came from Lukavica, most probably. But my opinion, based on

Page 8326

1 the diametre of the crater, which is cylindrically shaped, I deduced that

2 it came from the direction of west or north-west.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we please have this

4 admitted into evidence, this sketch?

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D805, Your Honours.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D2637 now, please.

8 Just one moment, please. Can we look at the whole image. This

9 is a zoomed-in section of Google Maps.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Do you see Bitumenka and the PTT buildings here? And if so, can

12 you please mark them here on this image.

13 A. Yes, just one moment. Let me take a look first.

14 Q. Yes, you can look at the location of the incident.

15 A. [Marks]. This is Bitumenka, I think. I don't know if it's the

16 whole thing, but Bitumenka is here.

17 Q. All right, thank you. Can you mark that with the number 1?

18 A. Yes, here is the number 1 [marks].

19 Q. PTT?

20 A. And this is the PTT Engineering building [marks].

21 Q. Thank you. Can you put the number 2 next to the PTT building,

22 and can you mark the location where the incident occurred with the

23 number 3.

24 A. [Marks] Yes. The location of the incident is approximately here.

25 Which number should I mark it with?

Page 8327

1 Q. With the number 3.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. This is the pedestrian path along which the projectile dropped;

4 is that correct?

5 A. It fell on the pedestrian path, on it precisely.

6 Q. Thank you. Can we have the date and "KDZ166," please.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. And can you mark the direction from which the projectile came, in

9 your opinion?

10 A. [Marks] I've marked it.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Can we tender this, please?

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D806, Your Honours.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D2638, please.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Do you agree that with this Google, this picture, this diagram is

18 placed, and that the direction of the street, or the main street, or the

19 boulevard, the Bulevar Mese Selimovica, actually shown in the sketch is

20 an extension of what is shown on the Google?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you agree, then, that these two parallel lines marked with the

23 1 and 2 indicate what you marked as the direction of the projectile that

24 created this crater?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8328

1 Q. Do you agree that this sketch shows the incoming trajectory,

2 marked with the number 1, passing above the Bitumenka?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Line number 2 indicates the pedestrian path or the edge of the

5 building where the shell dropped; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Can we tender this?

9 JUDGE KWON: Did you say line number 2 or 3?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 3. Lines 1 and 2 are the same.

11 They are parallel. They indicate the direction. Line number 3 actually

12 indicates the direction of the pedestrian path or the wall of that side

13 of the building.

14 JUDGE KWON: Unless it is objected to, we will admit this.

15 MR. GAYNOR: Very well, no objection, again these lines having

16 been placed there by the Defence team.

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

18 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.

19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D807.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We've lost the picture, it's gone,

21 but actually we should have corrected that north there.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. And having that in mind, we thus agree that this projectile came

24 from the north-west - here it is - isn't that right? And the north-east

25 is corrected here, isn't it? And the shell came from the north-west,

Page 8329

1 above the Bitumenka factory; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor.

4 MR. GAYNOR: Sorry, objection.

5 The last part of Mr. Karadzic's question said "The shell came

6 from the north-west." I don't know if that's a mistranslation, but the

7 evidence is not that this was a shell. The evidence is that this was a

8 modified air-bomb.

9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "Projectile," if it's easier,

11 "projectile." Thank you.

12 We're going to move to the next incident.

13 Has this been adopted, has it got a number; no?

14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it was admitted as Exhibit D807.

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. You also processed this incident of the 24th of May in the

17 Safeta Zajke Street; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What was the name of that street before it was called

20 Safeta Zajke Street?

21 A. I don't know. I couldn't say.

22 Q. Do we agree that it was perhaps Drinska Street, but, in any case,

23 it's a continuation of Drinska Street?

24 A. I really couldn't tell you, specifically, because I wasn't

25 familiar with that street before the war.

Page 8330

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Can we look at 65 ter 21214, please. 21214.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Are you familiar with this part of the panorama of the city of

5 Sarajevo?

6 A. Yes, I'm familiar with this view. In the middle of the

7 photograph is the building of the radio-television of Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina. In front of that building, closer to us, is the building of

9 the Municipal Assembly, and then next to the Municipal Assembly is the

10 building of the Geodesic Institute. A little bit in front of that is the

11 transformer station building.

12 Q. Would you kindly mark all of those places with numbers. Let's

13 start with the television building. Could you mark that with the

14 number 1, please.

15 A. [Marks] Number 1.

16 Q. Number 2, the Municipal Assembly of Novo Sarajevo?

17 A. Not Novo Sarajevo, but Municipal Assembly of Novi Grad [marks].

18 Q. Yes, that's right, Novi Grad. Number 3, the Geodesic Institute?

19 A. Here's the Geodesic Institute [marks].

20 Q. Number 4, the transformer station building?

21 A. [Marks] Number 4, done.

22 Q. Thank you. Do you see the police station building?

23 A. Just a moment.

24 Q. It's south in relation to the number 4.

25 A. Yes, it's south in relation to number 4, but I'm just trying to

Page 8331

1 orient myself. You cannot really see it very well on this image, the

2 police station building. Actually, the police station building is here.

3 Shall I mark it with the number 5?

4 Q. Yes, please do.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. That's correct, thank you. Can you now mark the Majdanska axis?

7 A. This is Majdanska Street [marks]. Just below the number 4, the

8 Majdanska Street is marked in blue.

9 Q. Does it go up towards Safeta Hadzica, towards us?

10 A. Yes, it lies towards us. From the Municipal Assembly building

11 towards us.

12 Q. Can you please mark that in the middle?

13 A. Mark what?

14 Q. The middle line of the street going towards Majdanska.

15 A. Well, this is what I've indicated below the number 4 with the

16 blue line.

17 Q. And does it end there?

18 A. I don't know if it continues onwards. I'm not sure where the

19 street forks. The place where I stopped is the intersection, so I don't

20 know in which direction it continues.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat his question?

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. What was behind the television --

24 JUDGE KWON: The interpreters couldn't follow your last question.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said that we're not going to be

Page 8332

1 marking the western part of the photograph now. I asked the witness to

2 tell us what this big industrial building is behind the television

3 building.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that that is the building

5 of the wire factory.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Thank you. Can you please mark that with the number 6.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Thank you. And do you see these buildings farther to the east,

10 the red ones? What are those buildings?

11 A. All of that is the wire factory.

12 Q. Could you put the number 6 above those buildings as well, please.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. And do you know where Sik, Graz, and Uniklima are? Do you know

15 where Uniklima is there?

16 A. I know where Sik is. It's here [marks]. It's below the wire

17 factory buildings, approximately -- approximately here [marks], let's

18 say. I've marked it with the number 7. That is the Sik building.

19 Q. And the Uniklima is a little bit farther to the east in relation

20 to that?

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 Q. And these domes, this is Igman; is that correct? Actually, is

23 that Astra, is that Astra?

24 A. No, no, that is the building of the Sarajevo City Transport

25 Company.

Page 8333

1 Q. Can I please ask you to mark in Majdanska and Safeta Zajke? Do

2 you agree that Safeta Zajke is immediately across the street? If you can

3 mark the Safeta Zajke Street length-wise, and if you can use red to

4 indicate how the street lies.

5 A. Just one moment, please. [Marks] This is Safeta Zajke Street,

6 approximately.

7 Q. Can we have number 7 -- no, number 8? Can I get number 8?

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Can I ask you now to mark where the projectile dropped on the

10 Safeta Zajke Street as we see it marked on this photograph?

11 A. I couldn't really mark it precisely. Looking at this photograph,

12 I cannot tell where the projectile fell. If you have some photographs

13 that are more tightly focused on the location, perhaps I could tell you

14 that.

15 Q. Could you indicate where the projectile dropped in

16 Majdanska Street, perhaps?

17 A. I can do it for Majdanska. The projectile impacted here [marks],

18 let's say.

19 Q. Can we mark this with the number 9?

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. An arrow. Actually, we have the number 9, and the spot -- the

22 dot above the number 9 indicates the location where the projectile fell?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would it help in this case if --

25 JUDGE KWON: If you don't mind, the witness may take a look at

Page 8334

1 the map which is in front of him, which was shown to him during the

2 examination-in-chief. And after consulting that map, he can mark the

3 place on this picture.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was just going to say that.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. And you can use the map. I can also offer the map for you, or

7 perhaps you have it in front of you.

8 JUDGE KWON: If the usher is kind enough to show him Sheet 11 of

9 this binder. Is that Sheet 11? That's the exhibit we admitted as P1803,

10 and you confirmed that. Do you remember that?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do I remember what?

12 JUDGE KWON: I think you were asked only about 15. I'm not sure

13 whether he was asked about green 11.

14 MR. GAYNOR: I think that's correct, we didn't -- we didn't deal

15 with green 11.

16 JUDGE KWON: That was my mistake.

17 Can you confirm or not that the number 11, marked as green,

18 reflects the place the incident took place?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can confirm that.

20 JUDGE KWON: Then could you mark on this picture where it would

21 be.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I can be of assistance.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Is this in line -- along the same line north-south, 13, 12, 17,

25 11; correct?

Page 8335

1 A. Well, you can see it's right here [indicates]. Should I put a

2 number there?

3 Q. Well, perhaps you can put an arrow there and the number 10 next

4 to it.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. This is precisely above the Vase Miskin Crni factory; correct?

7 A. No. That factory, Vase Miskin Crni, was some way off. This is

8 actually close to the factory -- the wire factory in Pofalici.

9 Q. Yes, my apologies. So this is just above the -- right over the

10 wire factory, behind the PTT building; correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Well, would you leave the number 10 there, then, or would you

13 move it a bit to the east?

14 A. Well, I can't really be more specific. As you can see yourself

15 in this photo, these are family homes. They're at the bottom of the

16 photo, so that you can't even see the street, itself, let alone the

17 buildings, the demolished buildings.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction: The family homes.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. But above the PTT building, closer -- behind the TV, if you look

21 at the map, to the north-west, the bearings are 13, 12, 17, 11, if you

22 look at that, that's in line with that, isn't it?

23 A. 17 and 11 have the south-south-east bearing.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you. To make sure

25 there is no misunderstanding, there is no mention made of the PTT

Page 8336

1 building. Everything we've said here had to do with the TV building and

2 the wire factory. Thank you.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Now, would you please -- could you please date and indicate

5 "KDZ166" as a signature there?

6 A. [Marks]

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this, if I

8 may.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D808, Your Honours.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Have you already said that you did not know that shells were

13 produced in this wire factory, in this compound?

14 A. No, I didn't know that.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Can we have 1D02171.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. While we are waiting for that: How far is that factory, the wire

19 factory, from the incident site; 50 or 100 metres away?

20 A. No, no, I think it's a bit further away.

21 Q. Well, you tell us.

22 A. Well, I can't really tell you as I sit here, but I think it's

23 about 300 to 500 metres away. I can't really be very precise because

24 there is a railway track running there and then there is a green area, so

25 I can't really be precise.

Page 8337

1 Q. Very well. We can actually look at Map 11 and measure that.

2 Now, would you please take a look at the report by Mr. Zecevic,

3 where he speaks about the production of mortar ammunition that is cast in

4 this factory.

5 JUDGE KWON: Why do we not have an English version of this? We

6 should.

7 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, we're looking for the number of that right now.

8 It's not indicated in the list Defence gave us. We're trying to find it.

9 JUDGE KWON: Let's move on, in the meantime, Mr. Karadzic.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see number 11 just one more

11 time in order to establish how far the factory is from the incident site.

12 That's 65 ter 13564.

13 JUDGE KWON: Or shall we see the marked version?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can see the marked version as

15 well, yes.

16 JUDGE KWON: D808.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that's a photo, but what

18 I am asking for is the Map 11.

19 JUDGE KWON: D804.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness, do you agree that we have a scale at the bottom which

22 shows and marks -- each bar is 100 or 200 metres?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would you agree that 100 metres here is represented as 1

25 centimetre? And if necessary, we can measure that.

Page 8338

1 A. Well, yes, approximately.

2 Q. Do you agree that between the closest edge of the factory and the

3 incident point, there is less than 1 centimetre on the map, in other

4 words, less than 100 metres?

5 A. Well, no, I think it's a bit more, it's a bit longer or farther

6 away.

7 Q. Well, here, I'll give you this scale ruler, and maybe you can

8 look at it. It is less than 100 metres. Just compare it to the scale

9 ruler.

10 JUDGE KWON: I think the witness has the original map in front of

11 him.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Here we have the scale, and it is my position that this is about

14 70 to 80 metres away, the closest edge, the closest corner of this

15 factory, because if we look at the scale ruler, we see that it's between

16 .7 and .8 centimetres.

17 A. Well, according to this scale ruler, it is about 100 metres away.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Could we now please have 1D2634.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. You made the sketch for this incident as well; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you actually -- does this sketch consist of two different

24 parts, when you drew it, and we actually put them together? Are these

25 the two separate -- the two parts of the same sketch?

Page 8339

1 A. Yes, they are.

2 Q. Would you tell us what kind of surface this projectile landed on.

3 A. The projectile landed on an asphalt road, a paved road. A

4 crossroads, actually, on a paved road.

5 Q. Thank you. Is the north, as indicated here, correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Does that mean that Safeta Zajke Street, in relation to the

8 north, actually forms an angle -- an obtuse angle?

9 A. Well, the Safeta Zajke Street is at about a 90-degree angle to

10 the north line.

11 Q. Then we would need to correct the indication for north here;

12 correct?

13 A. Well, just a little bit, but it's approximately at an angle of 90

14 degrees to it.

15 Q. Would you then please draw a line along the Safeta Zajke Street

16 and Esada Midzica? Would you just draw the lines to meet so that we can

17 see what angle they form.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Would you then mark the north here on this sketch.

20 A. Well, could we rotate this sketch by 180 degrees, or, rather, by

21 90 degrees? You're correct.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please rotate it by 90

23 degrees to the left.

24 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We can mark it again.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, the other way.

Page 8340

1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. What Mr. Karadzic asked you, Mr. Witness, was

2 to draw a line along with those two streets. I'm not sure whether it's

3 necessary, but could you mark the correct direction of north on this

4 sketch, Mr. Witness?

5 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. So we can see that there is a deviation of several degrees; maybe

8 25 to 30 degrees?

9 A. Well, I would say 15 degrees to 20 degrees.

10 Q. Thank you. According to your findings, the findings of your

11 on-site investigative team, what type of projectile landed there?

12 A. In my view, this was a modified air-bomb.

13 Q. Thank you. Do you know what made Mr. Zecevic claim that this was

14 an aerosol bomb?

15 A. I don't know. I'm not an expert on ballistics or explosive

16 devices. But in my experience, when I attended other on-site

17 investigations, I know that this bomb had rocket motors fitted on them,

18 and they were used -- that's the Oganj rocket type, and these rocket

19 motors were used with modified air-bombs. But I really can't tell you,

20 because I'm not an expert, what exact type of bomb this was.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, on the sketch here, you only indicated the

22 shrapnel fragments and some other points. Could you please tell us what

23 you showed and marked on this sketch here.

24 A. Well, on this sketch I marked, with a number 0, my vantage point.

25 That's where I began -- that's where I started compiling this sketch

Page 8341

1 from.

2 Q. Go on.

3 A. Numbers 1, 2 and 3 indicate the point of impact of the shell, or

4 that projectile, and also projectile fragments that were found in the

5 crater that was left behind the projectile. Number 3 indicates shrapnel

6 or debris from this bomb that exploded.

7 Q. Thank you. How did you determine what the position of the crater

8 was, and did you do it yourself or did you have some assistance?

9 A. Well, the position of this crater was not a difficult thing to

10 determine because the crater was of cylindrical shape, it was an

11 elongated cylinder, and you could clearly see -- based on that, you could

12 easily conclude where this projectile had come from.

13 Q. Who measured the sizes of the crater?

14 A. I did.

15 Q. And why did you not indicate the measurements here that would

16 help to exactly determine the position of this crater? Why are those

17 measurements missing from this sketch?

18 A. Well, quite the contrary, we do have the measurements. I

19 proceeded from this point, point 0, and the other point -- reference

20 point along the street, as the starting points, and then I connected the

21 apex of the crater and the base of the crater with lines, the triangle

22 there, and I have indicated exactly the measurements of the point where

23 the crater was -- where the impression of the crater was. This could

24 perhaps be moved a little bit to the west along Safeta Zajke Street,

25 perhaps some 100 metres farther to the west. That's perhaps where this

Page 8342

1 crater should be.

2 Q. Well, let's do it. Can you make it in this sketch?

3 A. Well, this sketch is okay the way I made it. What I'm referring

4 to is the general view of the town. When we looked at number 11, it is a

5 little bit to the west.

6 Q. Why don't we have the measurements of the sides of this angle?

7 "Sides of the triangle." I am correcting the record. The length of the

8 kathete of the triangle.

9 A. I don't know. Apparently, I haven't recorded them.

10 Q. You said that the crater was 250 centimetres long, 130 wide, and

11 30 centimetres deep; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You signed that and handed it in on the 25th of May, 1995; is

14 that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Why is it, then, that in the official report we have different

17 measurements? Let's look, for example, on page -- but before that, can

18 we have this admitted into evidence, and then we call up another

19 document.

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Does he need to sign it, mark it in

22 any way?

23 JUDGE KWON: Yes. If you could do that, Mr. Witness. That will

24 be Exhibit D809.

25 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

Page 8344

1 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 If I may observe, in light of this information, that that means

4 that I'm going to have some more time for the remaining three incidents;

5 is that correct?

6 JUDGE KWON: Please move on, Mr. Karadzic.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Witness, do you have any explanation why the size of the

9 crater differs from those that you have given? And I'm referring to the

10 sizes in the official report, as opposed to your report.

11 A. I have no explanation for that. What I did is what I did, and

12 what others wrote in the official report is what they wrote.

13 Q. Would you like us to call up this report so that you can see it?

14 A. No. It's not relevant to me. I did what I wrote down, and I

15 don't know what other people did or what they wrote down.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask the Registry whether this

17 official report was admitted into evidence?

18 Can I have 65 ter 09775, page 1. And we need not broadcast it.

19 If it's not in evidence, can we please have it admitted, and can

20 it be only shown in the courtroom without being broadcast?

21 Is this page 1?

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Do you recognise it? Do you recognise your name under one of

24 those numbers?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 8345

1 Q. Let's look at the last paragraph, and you can see that these

2 measurements differ from the ones that you provided; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Can we have this admitted into evidence?

6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D810, under seal, Your Honours.

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Did you visit the site the following day or the same day?

10 A. On the same day.

11 Q. At what time did the incident happen?

12 A. I don't know exactly the hour. All I know is that we examined

13 the crime scene on the same day.

14 Q. At what time did you go to the site?

15 A. I cannot tell you, precisely, the time.

16 Q. Do you remember what kind of weather it was on that day?

17 A. It was a nice, sunny day.

18 Q. Is it true that you had received information about this shell at

19 1400 hours?

20 A. I cannot give you any accurate and precise answer.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have again the last

22 document, D810.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. It would be very important, how long it took you to get to the

25 scene.

Page 8346

1 A. Well, let me tell you this: The procedure of visiting the crime

2 scene is as follows: In the area of a particular public security station

3 where an incident happens, the inspector on duty gathers a team, an

4 investigating team, to visit the crime scene. And all these people who

5 are supposed to go to the investigation site, that is to say, the judge,

6 the criminal investigation inspector, the criminal investigation

7 technician, the counter-sabotage technician, all of them from that

8 station get together at the station that covers the specific part of the

9 town.

10 Q. Do you accept what is written in paragraph 2, that you visited

11 the scene at 1400 hours?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Can we please have -- now have 65 ter 09773, and we can go

15 straight to page 3. If there's something on page 1, that something

16 should be -- should not be broadcast.

17 But let's correct the transcript. I think it should state

18 "1430."

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what you said.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. But that is what is written in the report?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. So you took these photographs at 1430 hours; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Based on these shades, can you tell us the orientation of the

Page 8347

1 incident site?

2 A. Well, I can't do that based on the shades.

3 Q. Where would the sun be -- the position of the sun be at 1430

4 hours? Can we agree that it is somewhere to the south, at zenith at

5 1430?

6 A. No, the sun would have passed the zenith point at 1430.

7 Q. We are talking about summertime, 1430, in May, which should be

8 1330 regular time; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. So the sun is towards the south, and it's casting the shadow to

11 the north?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can we then deduce that the remnants of this engine are casting a

14 shadow approximately to the north?

15 A. No. Viewed from this angle, it seems that they're casting the

16 shadow towards the east. If we suppose that the north coincides with the

17 direction of the shadow, then the east would be to the right.

18 Q. But where is this shadow pointing if the sun is on the south?

19 A. Well, I suppose towards the north.

20 Q. So where from did this projectile come?

21 A. Well, in my report, I stated that it was the south-easterly

22 direction.

23 Q. Would, then, these fragments be distributed or laid as it is if

24 it had come from the south-east?

25 A. Well, let me tell you that -- let me tell you -- well, the way

Page 8348

1 that you are thinking, you can put them in all directions. However, I

2 can tell you, with full responsibility, that this was a pretty clear

3 case, because the crater was cylindrical -- it was in the shape of an

4 elongated cylinder, and based on that shape, one can determine the

5 direction from which the projectile came.

6 Q. Thank you. So this shadow points approximately towards the

7 north, and the sun is in the south; is that correct?

8 A. Well, you can't put it exactly like that. You cannot take things

9 into account in that manner. It could be just one of the ways to look at

10 it. If you look at how these rocket motors that propelled the projectile

11 are stuck into the ground, and when the fuel burned out, it was consumed

12 by the rocket motor, the projectile started descending, and eventually it

13 landed. Now, how it landed, and after the detonation and the explosion,

14 how its fragments are distributed, it's the subject for a philosophical

15 discussion, not a serious one.

16 Q. Well, we need a serious one. Tell me, in the photograph below,

17 can you mark the longer -- is the longer one between 1 and 2?

18 A. Yes, yes. Roughly speaking, that's the direction of the crater,

19 the cylinder that was made by this projectile at impact.

20 Q. Can you connect the longer axis between 1 and 2 of the crater

21 with one line?

22 A. Yes, I can [marks].

23 Q. Thank you. Can you please put the date.

24 A. [Marks]

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I would like to tender this

Page 8349

1 into evidence. Can this be admitted into evidence?

2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D811, Your Honours.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Can we now have 1D2634.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. While we are waiting: Can we agree that you made a sketch here

8 in two segments and that we put them together like we did the last time?

9 Did you make this sketch?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. What was the approximate length of the motor -- of the rocket

12 motor that was found in the crater?

13 A. I cannot tell you exactly.

14 Q. Nobody measured them; is that correct?

15 A. I don't know. I didn't.

16 Q. In the report on the criminal investigation of the site, it was

17 decided that the projectile that landed there was probably a modified

18 aerial bomb with four rocket motors. On the basis of which did you

19 determine the number of motors?

20 A. I will answer your previous question concerning the length of the

21 rocket motor.

22 In the previous photograph, one can see the cylinder of the

23 rocket, and the first section of the cylinder is actually the engine or

24 the motor, and it's a smaller part of the cylinder. The bigger part of

25 the cylinder is the place where the fuel is stored, and the engine,

Page 8350

1 itself, consumes this fuel during its flight. In other words, this

2 cylinder is made up of two sections; the motor and the fuel storage

3 section.

4 Now, as for your second question, how did we arrive at the

5 conclusion that there were four motors, four rocket motors, that was our

6 assumption because it was logical that if you have an object that you

7 want to project into a sloped trajectory from all four points, you need

8 to attach the motors that will carry it evenly through the air so, once

9 you fire it, it will have an even trajectory.

10 Q. Thank you. Why do you say "most probably"? Because you couldn't

11 establish that beyond any doubt?

12 A. Well, let me tell you something. This was non-standard weapons.

13 It was not a weapon from the arsenal of any army. It was a make-shift

14 weapon made by attaching rocket motors to the bombs. Normally, the bombs

15 are dropped from planes, but your soldiers manufactured this weapon in

16 order to fire it from the ground, from the trucks. It was mounted on

17 trucks.

18 Q. Did your soldiers have that?

19 A. No, no, they didn't.

20 Q. How do you know that?

21 A. Well, you know very well our soldiers didn't have any weapons at

22 all, almost, so it was very difficult. You know that very well.

23 Q. Did both sides -- or did all of the three sides have the weapons

24 that they inherited from the Yugoslav People's Army?

25 A. Yes, all the sides had such kind of weapons. The only difference

Page 8351

1 was that the Bosnian side, the majority of its weapons were light

2 weapons, whereas the Bosnian Serb side had all types of weapons that

3 existed in the arsenal of the former Yugoslav People's Army, and that's a

4 huge difference.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We're not going to tackle this

6 subject any further.

7 Can we now look at 65 ter 10350, page 2. And do not broadcast

8 it.

9 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit P1811. It's a public exhibit.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Now, under B, does it say -- just a moment. Number 7, it says

12 that this was most probably a modified aerial bomb with four rocket

13 motors. Are you familiar with what kind of rockets Plamen and Oganj have

14 and how many rockets each of them have -- or, rather, how many motors

15 each of these rockets have?

16 A. No, I don't know much about multiple rocket-launchers. But

17 during investigations that I conducted, I had an opportunity to come

18 across their motors, and that's, more or less, all I know about it.

19 Q. Did the BH Army in Sarajevo have a multiple rocket-launcher?

20 A. I don't know that.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Can we now have 65 ter 09786, please, page 3. 09786.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. While we are waiting for that to come up: How is it possible

25 that the report states that there were five rockets recovered, based on

Page 8352

1 the debris that you collected on site, actually?

2 A. I can't answer that question because I did not participate in the

3 on-site investigation itself. That was done by other people, and they

4 conducted their investigation on the basis of the recovered trace

5 evidence.

6 Q. Well, take a look here. It says here in the other -- in the

7 first paragraph here, it says that these were -- actually, on the first

8 page, the first bullet says:

9 "Five steel deformed tubes ..."

10 Whereas it says that four rockets of 128 millimetres were

11 recovered. Can you see this?

12 A. Yes.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 3, please.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Yes, and here we can see it says a Grad-type rocket, and we can

16 see here that:

17 "The device described above was most probably made of a

18 destructive fab contact fuse aircraft bomb and five

19 122-millimetre Grad-type rockets which served as a power unit."

20 So here it says "122-millimetre Grad-type rockets," whereas there

21 it said "122 millimetre" and "Oganj rockets." So how did that happen?

22 A. Well, I can't really answer that question, because I'm not an

23 expert for explosive devices, nor am I a ballistics expert. My

24 responsibility was just to collect the trace evidence and to hand them

25 over to experts who were to conduct their expertise.

Page 8353

1 Q. But do you agree with me that these were 122-millimetre Grad-type

2 rockets or Oganj 128 millimetres?

3 A. Well, I can't really tell you with any accuracy.

4 Q. Well, if I were to tell you that the BH Army did have VBRs, what

5 would they fire from those VBRs, the multiple rocket-launchers?

6 A. I can't answer that question.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that there was an error

8 in the transcript. Oganj is 128-millimetre, that's the calibre, and

9 for Grad, the calibre is 122 millimetres.

10 Very well, thank you. I would like to tender this document now,

11 if that's -- if it hasn't already been admitted.

12 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues]... 1324.

13 JUDGE KWON: Could we have the number again? P ...?

14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1324, Your Honours.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I can just add something.

16 I stated in my report that this was the -- these were the most

17 probable rockets. I really am not an expert on these devices and

18 different types of projectiles.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. But it also says, on the first page, that the on-site

21 investigation was conducted on the basis of the trace evidence collected

22 on site; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, would it have been significant if you had -- if you knew

25 that the BH Army did have VBR rocket-launchers, multiple

Page 8354

1 rocket-launchers?

2 A. Well, I don't know. I don't know what you want me to answer.

3 Q. Well, your conclusion was that this projectile had come from the

4 south-east; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You said that it came from the aggressor positions. How did you

7 come to that conclusion, first of all, that it had come from the

8 south-east? And then on what did you base your conclusion that it had

9 come from the aggressor position? I assume that you meant by "aggressor"

10 the Serb position.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Well, I won't go into that discussion now, but what was the basis

13 on which you determined the incoming trajectory and the range?

14 A. I did not establish the range, nor do I know exactly what the

15 range was, but I do know, and I'm pretty certain of that, that the

16 BH Army did not shell its own positions.

17 Q. Thank you. So was that your criterion?

18 A. Well, that was the only logical conclusion, and that's the only

19 way that one would act. Only a person who is not quite normal would open

20 fire on him or herself.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Can we now please have 1D2635. 1D2635, please.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Do you agree that your sketch and the map actually are

25 consistent, that Safeta Zajke Street is consistent on both maps; they

Page 8355

1 overlap?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you agree that the impact point is well marked on the map as

4 well, that it's right across the street from the wire factory?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is this incoming trajectory relatively well transferred from the

7 sketch to the map? Does it actually show the exact orientation?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you now see that the inaccurate determination of where the

10 north point is is relevant in this case?

11 A. Yes, but we corrected it.

12 Q. Yes, we did. But what, then, about the crater base? Should we

13 correct that as well?

14 A. No, no, that should remain as it is, and the south-easterly

15 direction should remain as well.

16 Q. Well, how can they remain the same if the north bearing is

17 different? Then, I assume, the basis of the crater should also be more

18 in a southerly direction.

19 A. Well, no, because as a reference point I took this building --

20 or, rather, the fence around this building which runs parallel to

21 Safeta Zajke Street, so that it is not at all difficult to determine the

22 northerly direction.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 I would like to tender this document, please.

25 JUDGE KWON: Under the same understanding, i.e., that the marking

Page 8356

1 was done by the Defence, we can admit it. Exhibit D812.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the official report, it says --

3 that's 65 ter 09775, on page 1 -- it shouldn't be broadcast, although we

4 did say it was a public document. So 65 ter 09775. It may have already

5 been assigned a P number.

6 JUDGE KWON: Did we not give D810 for that?

7 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct.

8 JUDGE KWON: The reason why the Court Deputy put it under seal, I

9 take it, is because you named his name appearing on that report. That's

10 why.

11 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct.

12 JUDGE KWON: Otherwise, we could have put it in the public

13 domain.

14 Please proceed.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No problem, it can be under seal.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Now, Witness, can you see the last paragraph here? Look at where

18 it says:

19 "The crater produced by the projectile is orientated towards the

20 south," or more correctly, more precisely, "towards Lukavica, where the

21 aggressor's firing line is situated."

22 That's the fifth line in the last paragraph.

23 A. Yes, I just saw it. That is the official report and the findings

24 of the individual who drafted this report, whereas I drafted my own

25 report, and I stand by what I wrote.

Page 8357

1 Q. And then it goes on to say the crater --

2 "Two pipes, the ends of a 128-millimetre rocket, were found in

3 the crater, with a fuel reservoir and a rocket motor. Wings, rocket

4 stabilisers were found close and wrapped around with steel wire. The

5 tails were facing south towards Lukavica."

6 And here we can see that they were actually orientated towards

7 the south. So how is it that these findings actually differ from your

8 conclusions?

9 A. Well, I did not draw the conclusions that you inferred. Your

10 inference was your conclusion, and I stand by what my conclusions were.

11 Now, what you are proposing here is a hypothesis that is purely of a

12 philosophical nature.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now just briefly pull up the

14 sketch that we just saw a moment ago.

15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, how much longer do you need?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we have two remaining

17 incidents that we would like to deal with, and that's without the

18 incident involving the death of the little girl.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Now, Witness, would you agree with me that the direction that you

21 marked there was not the southerly direction and that the southerly

22 direction would actually be at the perpendicular angle to this image?

23 A. Well, yes, I agree. This is actually the south/south-easterly

24 direction.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you. Very well,

Page 8358

1 thank you. No, we don't need this sketch anymore.

2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, conclude in 15 minutes.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Your Excellency, I absolutely

4 cannot manage that. We both have Hrasnica and Majdanska Street, and

5 these are two very significant incidents for my case, because if I were

6 unable to question this witness, that would mean that my defence was not

7 properly completed.

8 Now, to give me three hours for five incidents, that's really --

9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you wasted a lot of time asking

10 repetitive questions, useless questions. We'll conclude this witness

11 today and leave two or three minutes at the end for an administrative

12 matter.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, can we extend today's session

14 through 2.30?

15 JUDGE KWON: That's a very interesting question. Let me check

16 the court schedule today.

17 I need to hear from the staff, which I will hear --

18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19 JUDGE KWON: Would it be agreeable to the Prosecution,

20 Mr. Gaynor?

21 MR. GAYNOR: That's fine, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

23 Let's carry on, Mr. Karadzic.

24 But we need to -- in any event, that being possible as well, we

25 need to have a short break to change the tape.

Page 8359

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We will save some time.

2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Now, you recall, Witness, that -- you recall the Majdanska

4 incident. That was on the 24th of May, and that's Schedule 12 in

5 Appendix 6. Now, could you recall which happened first? Well, you've

6 marked Majdanska Street on the photo.

7 We don't need to pull it up again; right?

8 Without pulling this photo, D808, would you agree with me that in

9 the industrial zone, there were no residential areas?

10 A. Do you mean on Majdanska Street?

11 Q. No, I mean that part of the city where the industrial area is.

12 A. In the industrial park, most of the installations there are

13 industrial plants, and there are perhaps a few residential buildings.

14 There are some, but not very many.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please have 65 ter

16 09774, and that should not be broadcast.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Now, did you draft the sketch for this incident as well?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who took the measurements?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. What did you use for your measurements?

23 A. Well, the measuring band.

24 Q. What kind of ground did this projectile land on?

25 A. This projectile landed on a soft surface, soil, the ground along

Page 8360

1 the street. There is a slight slope there, and the projectile struck the

2 ground, making a furrow, a deep furrow, a long cylinder in the ground.

3 Q. And what was the ground; asphalt or soil?

4 A. It was soil.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Could we now have 1D2630.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Is this a sketch that you drew?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. Did you -- the indication for north here, is it correct or should

11 it be slightly altered? More specifically, what is the orientation of

12 the transformer station there?

13 A. Well, we could -- it should be corrected a bit.

14 Q. Could you do it on this sketch, please? Could you indicate that?

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. What angle of deviation is that?

17 A. 15 to 20 degrees.

18 Q. Sold, but let's continue. It could be more, actually.

19 Are you able to indicate on this sketch the incoming trajectory

20 of the projectile?

21 A. It's indicated by a broken line here marked with the number 8.

22 That is the incoming trajectory of the projectile.

23 Q. Is that the direction or orientation? Where did the projectile

24 come from?

25 A. The projectile came from the direction of the south-east.

Page 8361

1 Q. How did you determine this direction?

2 A. I determined the direction, just like in the previous case, on

3 the basis of the place of impact of the projectile, because the place of

4 impact of the projectile was of a cylindrical shape, five metres long and

5 two metres wide.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we tender this diagram, please,

7 with the corrected direction of the north, please?

8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is a signature and a date

10 necessary?

11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

12 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

13 JUDGE KWON: That will be Exhibit D813; correct?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 09774, and

15 can we have page 2 of that document, please. There is a legend for your

16 diagram there.

17 THE REGISTRAR: This has been admitted as Exhibit P1812, under

18 seal.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is the legend for the

20 diagram.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Do you agree that only places are indicated, or the locations

23 where the projectiles were found, or fragments of projectiles, but there

24 are no markings indicating the characteristic points of craters?

25 A. No, absolutely not, because you can clearly see all the

Page 8362

1 dimensions, all the sides of the triangles that I drew that have to do

2 with this particular incident. All the locations marked in the legend as

3 1, 2, 3, 4 and so forth, indicate -- are marked by kathetes of the

4 triangle, and they point to the transformer station.

5 Q. What is the significance of the -- what are the referent points

6 of the crater? Where is the shorter and the longer axes of the crater?

7 A. They are indicated on the sketch. On the sketch, on the diagram,

8 you have the beginning point of the crater and the end point of the

9 crater. You also have the dimensions marked using triangles and kathetes

10 in relation to the transformer station.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the diagram again,

12 because then you can see that this is not there. D812.

13 JUDGE KWON: 13 or 12?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 813, yes, 813.

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Where is the crater here, Witness, sir?

17 A. Well, let me just wait. Can we zoom in on the diagram, please?

18 Q. But then we'll lose the legend. Where are the elements

19 indicating the position of the crater?

20 A. The point marked with the number 1 is where we have two kathetes.

21 One kathete is 2.250 centimetres long and the second one is 1.600

22 centimetres. So we have these two kathetes indicate -- marking the

23 location marked with the number 1. That is the point of impact of the

24 projectile.

25 Q. And what are the kathetes drawn in relation to?

Page 8363

1 A. They are drawn in relation to the transformer station. That is

2 the reference point.

3 Q. What is it in relation to? This number 2, what is that in

4 relation to, this "640"?

5 A. That is the angle of the transformer station, and this is where I

6 indicated the letters "S.T." which means the fixed point. That's where I

7 was standing when I began to draw this sketch.

8 Q. And this is the shape of the crater, that is five metres long and

9 two metres broad? It's not professionally drawn, is it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In relation to this north now, what would you add to this

12 diagram?

13 A. Nothing.

14 Q. Would you change anything in relation to the direction?

15 A. No. The incoming trajectory I established in relation to the

16 crater. That was the reference point.

17 Q. You said here that you found some rocket fuel. How do you

18 explain that?

19 A. No, no. I think I mentioned a part of the rocket engine with a

20 part of the rocket fuel container.

21 Q. Oh, all right. The fuel was not found?

22 A. During the flight of the projectile, the fuel is spent. When the

23 fuel is spent, the projectile falls in free-fall. That's how it works.

24 Q. Did you find any characteristic elements of the projectile, such

25 as the jets, the fins, the engine chambers, and so on?

Page 8364

1 A. I think, yes, that we did find some. We need to look at the list

2 of the remains or the traces.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the document

4 underneath this one. It's part of this document also. P1812, please,

5 page 2.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Witness, while we're waiting: You did conduct criminal

8 investigations somewhat differently in peacetime; is that right?

9 A. Yeah, I don't know what you mean.

10 Q. Would investigations like this be acceptable in peacetime? Would

11 they have been accepted?

12 A. In peacetime --

13 JUDGE KWON: What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 Q. All right. Now, let's see what you found here. Did you find any

16 characteristic remains of the projectile; fins, parts of the rocket's

17 engine, engine chambers, casings?

18 A. 1, place of impact of the projectile, the connective metal of the

19 projectile. Number 2, part of the container with rocket fuel. 3,

20 shrapnel. Then 6, bigger pieces of shrapnel. That's that.

21 Q. Is this something that is specific? On the basis of these

22 fragments, are you able to tell what the object is?

23 A. I never had the job of saying what it was. All I needed to do

24 was to assume what it was, and then the forensic experts, ballistics

25 experts, on the basis of collected fragments and shrapnel, remains of the

Page 8365

1 projectile, would give their opinion. And their opinion was official.

2 Q. Thank you. To whom did you give your part of the report, then,

3 and was that included in the final report? Did they use your report when

4 drafting the final report?

5 A. I don't know whether they used my report in order to draft the

6 final report. I handed my report to my chief, the chief of the Criminal

7 Investigations Unit.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Can we look at page 2 of 09775, please.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Well, here, do you agree that the crater was described

12 differently than the description that you gave? We're looking at the

13 last paragraph: Length, five metres. Width, 1.5 metres. Depth, 1.5

14 metres along the length of it. It was facing towards the south, and we

15 saw from your diagram that that wasn't quite so.

16 A. The length is the same here. My width is two metres, and his is

17 1.5, and that is the difference. As for the orientation, the direction

18 from which the projectile came, this is an opinion of the person who

19 wrote this report. And I wrote my report, and I stand by what I put in

20 my report.

21 Q. And is the depth different?

22 A. I don't know exactly what my depth was.

23 Q. You said it was two metres.

24 A. Yes, then it is different.

25 Q. What I'm particularly interested in is: How come, then, that the

Page 8366

1 direction from which the projectile came is different?

2 A. I cannot give you an answer to that. The gentleman who wrote

3 this report wrote it on the basis of information of his own, and I wrote

4 as best as I could, I wrote my report.

5 Q. If we're talking about a modified air-bomb, how many rocket

6 engines would you expect to find there?

7 A. I don't know. I couldn't answer exactly how many rocket engines

8 would be there. However, this is not relevant, because in order for us

9 to think that it was a modified air-bomb, we were more or less sure

10 there, and it was easy to tell that apart from a mortar shell of 120

11 millimetres, because the modified air-bomb created a crater that was

12 much, much bigger than the one a mortar shell of 120 millimetres would

13 create. The difference is enormous, and it's very obvious to anyone

14 who's looking.

15 Q. If you didn't find more than one rocket engine, why didn't you

16 think or at least investigate the possibility that it could be a rocket

17 from a multi-barrel rocket-launcher?

18 A. One rocket from a multiple rocket-launcher would not be able to

19 create a crater of this size.

20 Q. It has to be an air-bomb, then. How many engines, at a minimum,

21 are necessary to propel an air-bomb?

22 A. I don't know how many engines an air-bomb would have. We assume

23 that you would need three or four, five, but we didn't produce these

24 engines. I didn't work on the modification and perfecting of that

25 particular weapon, so I wasn't familiar with it.

Page 8367

1 Q. All right, thank you. In your report, you said that the

2 projectile came from the direction of Paljevo; is that correct? Paljevo

3 or Prljevo?

4 A. Paljevo, Paljevo, yes, more or less. I said south-east. That's

5 important.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] From the direction of the

7 south-east. All right.

8 Can we now have 1D02631. 1D02631.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. If you say "Paljevo," then you also established or decided on the

11 distance, in a way; is that correct?

12 Has this document been tendered? If not, I would like this part

13 of the report -- actually, the report to be admitted. 6 -- 9775. 65 ter

14 09775. Has it been tendered before, has it been admitted?

15 THE REGISTRAR: It's been admitted as Exhibit D810, under seal,

16 Your Honours.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Q. Witness, sir, do you see Majdanska Street here? It's in a kind

19 of clamp shape. Do you see that on this intersection?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. Can you put a dot? You see the Municipality building there and

22 all those buildings, the TV buildings. Can you indicate where those

23 buildings are? The transformer station?

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Yes, that's correct. And can you now mark the direction from

Page 8368

1 where that came from Paljevo Brdo?

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Thank you. And can you please mark this now? It's not necessary

4 to put any numbers. Well, actually, you can put the number 1 as the

5 point of impact and number 2 as the incoming trajectory.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Can we date and the witness code so that it can be admitted?

8 A. [Marks]

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D814, Your Honours.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 09775, page 2, so

12 that we can see what the report says. This is not to be broadcast.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. In the last paragraph: "The crater ...," with its length, do you

15 see that?

16 "The crater is facing south, which indicates that the rocket was

17 fired from the same spot as the one before: A number of parts of a VBR

18 rocket were found in and around the crater, as well as shrapnel and parts

19 of an aerial bomb. They were photographed and sent ..."

20 And so on and so forth.

21 Where are the photographs of those parts which would indicate

22 that this was an air-bomb and not a VBR rocket?

23 A. All the photographs that I took, I put as part of the photo

24 documentation, so the entire photographed evidence pertaining to the case

25 would also include those photographs that I took.

Page 8369

1 Q. So it is uncontested that this is orientated towards the south,

2 and it says that the source of fire is the same as in the previous one;

3 correct?

4 A. Well, yes, but the report -- that report is the report of the

5 gentleman who wrote it, and not mine.

6 Q. But is this an overall report compiled by the investigative team?

7 A. No, no, this was a report that was drafted by that gentleman, and

8 we were all supposed to draft a report together. However, he did it --

9 he did his own report and I did my own.

10 Q. And where is your report? Is it reflected in this one?

11 A. Well, the procedure was as follows: I would forward my report to

12 my superior, to my chief, and then they would forward it to the

13 prosecution. And all those reports sent by various individuals who took

14 part in the on-site investigations would then be put in a file and

15 forwarded to the prosecutor.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Can we see D814 one more time just briefly in order to determine

18 the orientation. D814.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness, do you agree that the direction that you indicated here

21 is more easterly than southerly? It is some 20 degrees bearing east, so

22 that it's closer -- actually, it's more easterly than southerly?

23 A. Well, no, this is really south-easterly.

24 Q. Thank you. We can't find anywhere in the report or in the photo

25 file that there were any fragments of an air-bomb found. We only see

Page 8370

1 that there were some fragments of a VBR recovered; correct?

2 A. Well, I don't have the photo file before me right now, so I can't

3 really answer that question accurately.

4 Q. Thank you. We'll move on to the next one.

5 A. Could we have a brief break, please?

6 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I was about to suggest it.

7 We'll have a break for 10 minutes. We'll resume at 2.00.

8 --- Break taken at 1.53 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 2.08 p.m.

10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. Can I remind you now about the incident in Hrasnica that we

13 talked about during the examination-in-chief. Were you a part of the

14 team investigating that, and what did you do there?

15 A. Yes, I was a part of that investigation of the Hrasnica incident.

16 Q. Thank you. How soon after the incident did you go on site?

17 A. Well, we went out to the incident site in the afternoon hours,

18 around 2.00 or 3.00 p.m., I think, because I know that I had come from

19 down-town, from Sarajevo, and I had to pass through Dobrinja, and then

20 the tunnel through Butmir all the way to Hrasnica. So it was quite a

21 trip to get to the site, the incident site.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Can we now have 65 ter, please, 13565.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this Exhibit P1792.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8371

1 Q. You said in the examination-in-chief that this area was an

2 exclusively residential area where only private homes, civilians and

3 residential buildings were. You said that; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do we have the document before us?

6 Yes.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Now, could you please mark here Alekse Santica Street? I think

9 the correct name is Izeta Aranica, but you can see the Alekse Santica

10 Street. Can you indicate it?

11 A. Yes [marks].

12 Q. Would you now please indicate where the Hrasnica cultural and

13 sports centre was, the Famos playground?

14 A. Well, this building here is the cultural and sports centre in

15 Hrasnica [marks].

16 Q. Thank you. Would you please mark it with the number 1.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. And now show us where the post office was. Can you see the post

19 office building? It's on Halid-bega Hrasnice.

20 Street.

21 A. Well, I don't know exactly where the post office building is.

22 Q. Very well. Can you see, across from this, the school building?

23 A. Yes, I can see that.

24 Q. Would you please mark it, put a circle around it, and put the

25 number 2 there.

Page 8372

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Did this used to be Alekse Santica School, and now it's the

3 second elementary school in Hrasnica?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. Would you now please date this document, and also

6 your pseudonym.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Now, according to what you know, could you indicate the direction

9 from which this projectile came, the one that you investigated?

10 A. Yes, I can [marks].

11 Q. And that is exactly across from the school building; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we now please

14 have --

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Or, rather, would you please date this and put your pseudonym.

17 A. [Marks]

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Exhibit D815.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Can we now have 65 ter 09758, and then page 10. We don't need

21 the first page. The witness will recognise the 10th page as well.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. According to you, where was -- according to your findings, where

24 did this projectile explode?

25 A. Well, this projectile exploded on the house of Ferhatovic, Haso.

Page 8373

1 It struck the house and then exploded.

2 Q. It exploded outside the house; correct?

3 A. No, it struck the house, itself, and detonated inside the house.

4 Q. What would the remainder of the house look like if the explosion

5 was inside the house? Wouldn't parts of the house be scattered all over

6 Hrasnica?

7 A. Well, they were. You're correct.

8 Q. But can't you see that the structure of this house actually piled

9 down, as it were? It wasn't scattered around; it remained within the

10 perimeters of the house.

11 A. Well, no. We found the traces inside the house. As for the

12 house, itself, it had two storeys, and it simply collapsed. It slumped

13 down like a pile of cards.

14 Q. Very well. So on impact, on the roof of the house, the bomb

15 detonated?

16 A. Well, I don't know exactly where it detonated, but we found most

17 of the trace evidence inside the house.

18 Q. Is this photograph part of a P exhibit?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... 815, under

21 seal.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 32 of this

23 document, please. This is Incident 10 from the G list, G schedule.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. What happened to this roof?

Page 8374

1 A. Well, you can clearly see that all the tiles were blown away all

2 over Hrasnica, and only a small number of tiles remained on the roof.

3 Now, if you can see this garage next to the house, adjacent to

4 the house, the metal structure, it was dented and it looked like a carton

5 of milk if you were to squeeze it, and then it would be thinner at one

6 end and broader at the other end.

7 Q. Thank you. But do you agree with me that on this roof, the

8 effect of the projectile explosion was like some kind of metal rain? It

9 was outside of this structure?

10 A. Well, yes. In fact, this was the -- these were the effects of

11 the blast wave when this explosive -- when this projectile exploded.

12 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned in your findings the skyscraper in

13 the background. Why did you do that? Was it because you wanted to show

14 that this was a residential area?

15 A. Yes, and also for better orientation in -- spatial orientation.

16 Q. Thank you. How far is this high-rise from the incident site or

17 point of impact?

18 A. Several hundred metres.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Can we now see 65 ter 0 -- or, rather, this same document, but

21 page 34, 3-4.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. What we see in the background, is that the Alekse Santica School

24 building?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8375

1 Q. How far is that building from the point of impact?

2 A. Well, it is pretty close. It's some 100 to 150 metres; couldn't

3 be more.

4 Q. Could you please indicate the school building on the photo by

5 placing an arrow pointing at it?

6 A. Well, would you like me to circle it?

7 Q. Very well. Please do so.

8 A. [Marks] These are the windows of the Alekse Santica elementary

9 School.

10 Q. Our information indicates that it's 30 to 50 metres away from the

11 place of the incident. Is that something that corresponds with your

12 information?

13 A. I think the distance is at least 100 metres. I don't know

14 exactly, but it's not 30 metres.

15 Q. Can we have your initials and the date.

16 A. [Marks]

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we tender this because it's

18 been marked again? 816; is that right?

19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D2645 now, please.

21 There is no signature, so I think that it doesn't have to be --

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Is this a diagram of that incident?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is the incoming trajectory of the projectile marked with the

Page 8376

1 number 11?

2 A. Yes.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Has this document been admitted?

4 MR. GAYNOR: I believe the sketch is in evidence already,

5 Mr. President.

6 JUDGE KWON: This is a part of -- must be a part of some report,

7 then.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We put together two parts of the

9 diagram for the sake of completeness, and we would like to ask the

10 witness if that is his diagram. I wanted to ask the witness if this was

11 put together correctly.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was.

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last two

14 questions and answers by the accused and the witness.

15 JUDGE KWON: We'll give a separate number for this.

16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D817, Your Honours. It's also part of

17 65 ter -- P1794, under seal.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But we had to put it together in

19 order to see the entire image.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Is the north here good?

22 A. Well, yes.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Can we look at 1D2641, please.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8377

1 Q. Can you look at this picture, and do you agree that this -- the

2 diagram applied to this Google map is well placed, in terms of "11," and

3 this "2" is regularly parallel in relation to the projectile?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you agree that a point here indicates the point of impact

6 along the line marked with the number 2?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Does line number 2 cross precisely over the Alekse Santica

9 School?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Would you now change that estimate of yours about the distance of

12 the school from the place? For example, this gym is not even 50 metres

13 away; would you agree?

14 A. I think that it's actually 100 metres here.

15 Q. All right. The street is five to six metres wide and so on?

16 A. Well, the green area, the house, the yard -- I think it's the

17 gym.

18 Q. Would you agree here that goes towards the place of the incident?

19 A. Yes, probably.

20 Q. Thank you. Do you know -- can we tender this document, please?

21 JUDGE KWON: With the same caveat, we'll admit it as

22 Exhibit D818.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Do you know what the Alekse Santica School was used for during

25 the war?

Page 8378

1 A. No, I don't know that.

2 Q. Are you aware that the 104th Brigade of the Army of Bosnia and

3 Herzegovina acted in Hrasnica with 4.500 men, and that all the facilities

4 were being used for that brigade? Are you aware of that?

5 A. No, I'm not.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We still have enough time to just

7 take a glance at 2D2642 [as interpreted]. I'm not going to press you on

8 that. Others will deal with that.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. But do you agree that in such a small area, 4.500 soldiers would

11 make the area pretty dense?

12 A. I don't know what to answer you.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's go to the video now. Let's

14 look at 1D2647, please.

15 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, just before we go on, I do have a

16 very short bit of re-examination to do which will take about two minutes.

17 Secondly, I think we're about to see videos of ABiH training

18 exercises, or something along those lines, which I submit this witness is

19 not the right witness to comment on these videos. Mr. Karadzic can find

20 another method to have them admitted, if that's his desire.

21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would just like to play it

23 briefly just to see what that thing looks like, and it's a good thing for

24 the witness to see.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]