Page 9553
1 Friday, 10 December 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
7 Good morning, Mr. Djozo.
8 WITNESS: NEDZIB DJOZO [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
11 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.
13 Examination by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]
14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Djozo. I wonder if we can pick up where we
15 left off yesterday when we were discussing the shelling of
16 Dzenetica Cikme Street in Sarajevo. Do you remember where we left off
17 yesterday?
18 A. Yes, I remember that.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Could we see please then 65 ter number 23066,
20 which is an official report dated 26 May 1995, from the Stari Grad
21 Public Security Station in Sarajevo.
22 Q. Now, Mr. Djozo, have you seen this document in preparation for
23 your testimony here today?
24 A. I have.
25 Q. What do you recognise this document to be?
Page 9554
1 A. This is the official report done after on-site investigation was
2 conducted concerning the shelling incident injuring children and people
3 in Dzenetica Cikme Street. When the police station Stari Grad was
4 informed that a shell exploded in that street, that some children were
5 killed and wounded, an investigation team was formed, but it was only the
6 next day that it managed to go out and investigate. The shelling took
7 place on the 25th of June, 1995, in the evening, around 7.00 p.m., and an
8 investigating judge of the High Court in Sarajevo was also informed, but
9 he did not come to the scene. It was Judge Ibrahim Hadzic that came to
10 the scene, and an official team from the CSB Sarajevo was formed.
11 The duty officer for on-site investigation at the police station
12 Stari Grad was there, a duty officer from the anti-sabotage unit of the
13 KBZ BH -- sorry, KDZ, which is anti-sabotage unit, and a scenes of crime
14 officer also from the CSB Sarajevo.
15 Q. Now, Mr. Djozo, your name is not mentioned in this document, is
16 it?
17 A. Yes. My name is not mentioned here for the simple reason that
18 every day one person is assigned to be the duty officer for on-site
19 investigations, and it so happened that these children were killed in the
20 evening of one day and the on-site investigation was to be conducted the
21 next day. Police officers from Stari Grad secured the site, and the next
22 morning, upon the orders of my supervisor, I went with a couple of
23 colleagues to help out in that on-site investigation.
24 Q. Now, was this report made available to you prior to your giving
25 testimony in the Perisic case?
Page 9555
1 A. Possibly, but I'm not sure whether I saw it then.
2 Q. Perhaps you could assist us with respect to the date of the
3 incident. You noted at paragraph 25 of your written evidence that to
4 your knowledge, this incident took place about a month before Markale II,
5 and you see in the document in your language in front of you the document
6 itself is dated 26 May 1995, but it refers to an incident that took place
7 on 25 June 1995. Could you clarify?
8 A. Well, from the area held by the VRS, thousands of shells fell
9 upon Stari Grad. One cannot remember when that was, what shells those
10 were, what was going on. In the area of Dzenetica Cikme Street and part
11 of Drvarksa Street covered by the police station Centar Bjelave,
12 shellings were almost a daily occurrence, so we could not keep a record
13 of that kind, when the shells were falling, whether there were some at
14 that landed before and after, at what time. So that after all this time
15 especially you can't be sure when that happened.
16 Q. Now, given that the date on this document on the top left-hand
17 corner of 26 May 1995 appears in that document only once, do you think
18 that might have been a typographical error?
19 A. Such typographical errors should not be possible. It shouldn't
20 be a typo.
21 JUDGE KWON: The first line of the main report says it was
22 created on 26th of June. Do you see that, Mr. Djozo?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see that. It's possible
24 that in the left-hand top corner in the heading a typo was made, because
25 in the body of the text they continued to refer to the 25th and the
Page 9556
1 26th of June.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. Your Honours, I'd like to tender this
3 report as the next Prosecution exhibit, please.
4 JUDGE KWON: This is a report as regards unscheduled shelling
5 incident.
6 MS. EDGERTON: It is indeed, Your Honour, and I should underline
7 that this evidence is not being led for the specific proof of this
8 incident. This evidence, the evidence about this incident, is being led
9 in relation to a scheduled incident, Markale II, on 28 August 1995, and
10 it's part of the Prosecution's case that this evidence -- well, in fact
11 this evidence corroborates and supports Mr. Djozo's evidence that the
12 marketplace incident was a deliberate attack by Bosnian Serb forces.
13 JUDGE KWON: Any objections from the Defence?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think if I tried to do something
15 like this you wouldn't let me get away with it. This witness was neither
16 an active participant nor is this incident scheduled.
17 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to respond, Ms. Edgerton, before we
18 deliberate?
19 MS. EDGERTON: Well, just, in fact, he was a participant. He's
20 already given evidence that he attended the scene the next day and took
21 part.
22 JUDGE KWON: Okay.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE KWON: It's relevant. We don't see any problem admitting
25 it. This will be admitted.
Page 9557
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1987, Your Honours.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
3 Q. Now, Mr. Djozo, in your written evidence at paragraphs 27 to 34,
4 you referred to another incident which you described as being two or
5 three days before or after the one we've just spoken about where three
6 120-millimetre shells fell in one line from the same direction of fire
7 within the space of half an hour from each other, then a fourth
8 120-millimetre shell fell in the same neighbourhood coming from the same
9 direction. And you noted at paragraph 33 that these shells fell within
10 100 metres from each other, creeping closer to the marketplace -- with
11 the first three creeping closer to the marketplace with every shot. Do
12 you remember that from your written evidence?
13 A. Yes, I do. I know very well how it all unfolded.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Well, then perhaps we could have 65 ter number
15 23002, please.
16 Q. Mr. Djozo, do you recognise this document that appears on the
17 screen in front of you?
18 A. Yes, I know the document, because I drew this.
19 Q. Could you tell us what's depicted in this document then.
20 A. This drawing shows the place where shells landed and exploded
21 after being fired from the area of Lukavica, Mount Trebevic.
22 Q. Does this refer to the incident we've just talked about where in
23 your written evidence you said three 120-millimetre shells fell in one
24 line from the same direction of fire within the space of half an hour?
25 A. Yes. The first shell landed in Skenderija Street, now renamed
Page 9558
1 Hamdije Kresevljakovica, in the compound of the public transportation
2 company. There were some people killed and some wounded there.
3 Q. Now, could you, before you go much further, do, as you did
4 yesterday, and with the assistance of my colleague and the electronic
5 marker in front of you indicate where to your recollection the first
6 shell fell. And perhaps you could put a circle around the marking of
7 where the first shell fell?
8 A. The first shell fell in Skenderija Street, that is to say,
9 Hamdije Kresevljakovica, and that's here. In this spot where the shell
10 landed, people were wounded and killed.
11 JUDGE KWON: Shall we ask him to put number 1.
12 MS. EDGERTON:
13 Q. Yes, please. Marking a red circle at the bottom middle of the
14 page, could you just write the number 1 beside that, please.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Thank you. Now could you tell us how the rest of the incident
17 unfolded. Where was the second shell?
18 A. The next shell fell in the formerly JNA street, now
19 Sarajevo Defenders Street, just next door to the Stari Grad town hall or
20 municipality building.
21 Q. Marking a further red circle with the number 2 beside it.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. And the third shell?
24 A. The third shell fell in the street formerly known as Marsala
25 Tita, now known as Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street, and again there were
Page 9559
1 dead and wounded.
2 Q. And you said then a fourth 120-millimetre shell fell in the same
3 neighbourhood coming from the same direction, and where was that?
4 A. The fourth shell landed close to the faculty of economics, former
5 Vase Miskina Street. It fell on the roof on the faculty of economics.
6 Q. Does this sketch that you've marked - oh, pardon me - indicating
7 the location of the third and fourth shells with red circles and the
8 numbers 3 and 4 beside them. Now, does this sketch you've drawn indicate
9 the location of the shelling of Markale II on 28 August 1995?
10 A. Markale II is marked, and it's roughly 50 metres, at any rate,
11 less than 100 metres away in Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street. That's the
12 building of the marketplace.
13 Q. Fifty to 100 metres away from what?
14 A. The building of the market is less than 100 metres away from
15 shell number three, and the same distance from shell number four, not
16 more than 100 metres away. Between 50 and 70 metres max.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Could this be the next Prosecution exhibit,
19 please.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1988, Your Honours.
22 MS. EDGERTON:
23 Q. Could we now go through a similar exercise to what we did
24 yesterday and look at P1982, which is a map, Mr. Djozo, that you marked
25 yesterday relating -- a sketch that you had made to the map itself, and
Page 9560
1 I'd like you to go through the same exercise, please.
2 P1982 is on the screen. Do you remember this map from yesterday,
3 Mr. Djozo?
4 A. Yes, I remember.
5 Q. Now, my colleague's going to assist you by making sure that you
6 work in another colour, and what I'd like you to do is, as you did
7 yesterday, mark the -- so you can orient all of us, mark the area
8 indicated in the sketch we've just had on the screen in front of us,
9 P1988.
10 A. The first shell landed close to the Drvenija bridge in
11 Skenderija Street, nowadays Hamdije Kresevljakovica Street, around here.
12 The second one fell in Sarajevo Defenders Street close to the Stari Grad
13 municipality building. The next one close to the faculty of economics.
14 It fell actually on the roof of that building. Facing the faculty of
15 economics. And the fourth one fell in Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street. It
16 hit a residential building where the ground floor was occupied by the
17 Konzum company, and the upper floors were apartments.
18 Q. Now, could I ask you to mark the blue dots you've placed on this
19 map with numbers beside them indicating one for the first shell, two for
20 the second, three for the third, and fourth for the last.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Could this be the next Prosecution exhibit,
24 please.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
Page 9561
1 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P1989, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE KWON: Before we withdraw this map, to remind ourselves of
3 the overall marking, the red one in Stari Grad refers to the location of
4 the Stari Grad police station.
5 MS. EDGERTON: I'd invite the witness to confirm that.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's marked as Stari Grad
8 police station.
9 JUDGE KWON: And the red markings hidden behind the green
10 markings refers to the location of Markale.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE KWON: And green markings refers to what, Mr. Djozo?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Petrarkina Street,
14 Dzenetica Cikme Street, and Markale. I'm sorry, I didn't do this very
15 well. I didn't mark explosion number three very well because it's even
16 closer to Markale than I marked.
17 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to erase number 3 and mark it again.
18 Could you wait a minute, and the usher will assist you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where I had marked number 3 is
20 already Lugavina Street, Romanijska Street is below, Petrarkina and
21 Dzenetica Cikme descend towards Mula Mustafe Baseskije. That would be
22 number 3.
23 JUDGE KWON: Did we keep the previous version where the number 3
24 is differently marked? It was not kept. Thank you. Very well. This
25 will be kept.
Page 9562
1 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
2 This has been admitted as P1989 already.
3 MS. EDGERTON:
4 Q. Yes. Could we turn, then, still on the subject of the incidents
5 at this location, could we turn then to 65 ter 22999, an official report
6 compiled following an on-site investigation on the occasion of the
7 shelling of the city on 1 July 1995. Thank you.
8 Mr. Djozo, do you see the document on the screen in front of you?
9 A. Yes, I can see that.
10 Q. And do you recognise this document?
11 A. Yes, I recognise the document.
12 Q. And what does it relate to?
13 A. This is an official report written concerning the shelling of
14 central Sarajevo on the 1st of July. The shelling of Sarajevo,
15 especially Stari Grad centre and Novo Sarajevo, were being targeted by
16 heavy shelling.
17 MS. EDGERTON: If we could go over, please, to page 2 in both
18 versions of the document, paragraph 5 of the English, and paragraph 4, as
19 I recall, in the B/C/S version. Thank you.
20 Q. Do you see mention of your --
21 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry, could you make the B/C/S version a
22 little bit clearer somehow. A little bit larger, please.
23 Q. Do you see mention of your name in paragraph 4 of the B/C/S
24 version, Mr. Djozo? And sorry, my colleague, his name is actually a
25 little bit cut off and it might be hard for him to see it in the version
Page 9563
1 in his own language. Thank you.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, immediately below your name appear reports of two separate
4 shelling incidents. Do these refer in any way to the incidents we've
5 just been discussing?
6 A. Yes, and that is related to that investigation, those incidents.
7 Q. In what capacity did you attend the scene?
8 A. When the investigation team was formed, because the shelling was
9 in the central areas of Sarajevo, ranging from Stari Grad to Novi Grad,
10 the team had to go to each of the police stations, each of the places
11 where the shelling was recorded. Since the shelling was quite fierce, as
12 they were leaving the CSB building, they were progressing through the
13 different investigations.
14 In the Stari Grad area, where I was on duty that day, I waited
15 for the investigation team in the Hamdije Kresevljakovica Street in
16 Skenderija and I was waiting for them to investigate the shell that
17 landed in Skenderija Street, because this was covered by the Stari Grad
18 and the Centar police stations and the duty officer from the crime
19 department had to be present from the Centar police station. Then we
20 went to the Stari Grad area after that investigation was completed where
21 I joined the investigation team. After that, together with the others,
22 we came to the Branilaca Grada Street, the former JNA street, which was
23 part of the Stari Grad municipality. This shell mostly wounded people.
24 I didn't have information that anybody was killed. We finished that
25 investigation, and after that we went to Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street
Page 9564
1 where we also carried out an investigation. There were many dead, also
2 many wounded people there. After that, the investigation team went to
3 Novi Grad.
4 The shell that landed across the street from the faculty of
5 economics, hitting the roof, did not seem to wound or kill anyone. At
6 least we didn't have such information. And since the shelling continued,
7 the investigation team continued, and all we did was to document the fact
8 that the shell landed on that building.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MS. EDGERTON: I'd like to ask that this be the next Prosecution
11 exhibit, please, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE KWON: The relevance goes to the same issue as raised in
13 the previous document.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Absolutely.
15 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit it.
16 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit P1990, Your Honours.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Djozo, finally at paragraph 35 of your
18 written evidence you said, and I'll quote:
19 "My view regarding these and other shellings, which was shared by
20 others at the police station, is that the fire was adjusted until they
21 reached the very crowded Markale to cause a big number of casualties."
22 And what would I like to ask you is when you referred in your
23 written evidence to these and other shellings, what other shellings were
24 you referring to?
25 A. With the aggression on Bosnia and Herzegovina from the very
Page 9565
1 beginning of the shelling, all the shells were directed to areas where
2 usually there were people gathering, where there were more people. We
3 know that in Vase Miskina street at the very beginning of the war a lot
4 of people were killed. All the shells were directed in such areas. The
5 Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street was a street that most of Sarajevo's
6 citizens used. It was visibly shielded from view from Trebevic, so all
7 the citizens moved along that street. The only place where they could
8 gather, where they could exchange goods and buy food for themselves, to
9 exchange cigarettes for food, was Markale, and that is mostly where they
10 stayed for a brief period of time to exchange the goods, to buy
11 something, and then they would immediately leave.
12 All the shelling that happened even before that, from the very
13 beginning of the aggression, meant that the shells were landing in these
14 central areas. We tried to draw the attention of the people not to
15 gather in groups, but at that time you couldn't really do that. People
16 were struggling to survive. They needed food. They needed too exchange
17 goods.
18 The police was in a difficult situation. We had to be on the
19 street, too, to draw people's attention to the fact that they shouldn't
20 be gathering in groups and to leave these places quickly, but it would
21 always happen that the shelling would cause a lot of misfortune, a lot of
22 deaths, a lot of wounding.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. That concludes the
24 examination-in-chief.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
Page 9566
1 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
2 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I wonder if it would be
3 possible to return very briefly to the issue of the admissibility of what
4 has now become P1987, and I wonder if I could just be heard outside of
5 the presence of the witness on this issue.
6 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Yes, it's better.
7 Mr. Djozo, there's one matter we'd like to discuss in the absence
8 of yourself.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. President, in
11 looking at this document, first of all it required a permission to be
12 added to the Rule 65 ter list because the history of this was that the
13 notice was filed on the 22nd of October, which didn't include this
14 document, and then on the 6th of December -- or the 8th of December a
15 supplemental notice was filed in which this document was added, but
16 that's a technical issue that normally wouldn't make any difference. But
17 the unfairness of this is that on the 29th of October, which was after
18 the first notice was filed but before this document was added, we heard
19 the testimony of Mr. Miokovic, KDZ194, he's the author of the report
20 that's been admitted, and so at that time we had no information that this
21 incident would be part of the testimony and we didn't ask him any
22 questions about it. Now, the difference between the testimony of this
23 witness and Miokovic and the report is that this report indicates that
24 the shells came from the Serb side and that UNPROFOR concurred with the
25 direction of the shell that was concluded. This witness can't speak to
Page 9567
1 that at all. So the result is that you've now admitted a report for
2 which we've been prevented from cross-examining the witness who could
3 have spoken to that, and we think that that's an unfairness and ought not
4 to be allowed.
5 Thank you.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
7 Ms. Edgerton.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment, please,
9 Your Honours.
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 MS. EDGERTON: A couple of points I want to make, Your Honour.
12 First of all, this document was disclosed in relation to Mr. Miokovic on
13 16 September 2010 under Rule 66(B), as authored by, and then on
14 8 December 2010 as a potential 65 ter exhibit.
15 With respect to the document now with this witness, it's clearly
16 a relevant document and relevant to this witness's evidence, Your Honour.
17 So I think the more appropriate course may be, should Mr. Robinson want
18 to raise this issue or deal with this document again with Mr. Miokovic,
19 he could ask then to do so with Mr. Miokovic.
20 JUDGE KWON: Just a question from the top of my head, but is it
21 not sufficient on the part of the Prosecution to have had Mr. Djozo's
22 evidence that certain shells landed on this area on certain period of
23 time instead of having this document admitted?
24 What do you think?
25 MS. EDGERTON: What is helpful about this document for the
Page 9568
1 witness is that the witness during his initial testimony in the Perisic
2 case was unable to date the incident other than approximately putting it
3 in time about a month before Markale. The actual report of the incident
4 which he -- which refreshed his memory on seeing it in preparation for
5 his testimony provided a precise date for the incident. That would be --
6 and I think the date, Your Honour, is of assistance to all of us.
7 JUDGE KWON: That has been corrected.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Yes.
9 JUDGE KWON: So my question is do we need that report as such if
10 that is the purpose of the Prosecution?
11 MS. EDGERTON: If I can have a moment to look at the actual
12 report for a second, I'll let you know.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours ...
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Just before I answer your question, Your Honour,
19 back as I said to the issue of fairness, the document was disclosed prior
20 to Mr. Miokovic's testimony. They could have cross-examined Mr. Miokovic
21 on it had they wanted to. That being said, I've had a look at the
22 document. I've discussed it with Mr. Tieger, and given that the incident
23 was explored with the witness in his written evidence and given his
24 comments on the stand, I'm prepared to withdraw the document at this
25 time.
Page 9569
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. How about Exhibit P1990?
2 Mr. Robinson.
3 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. That's not the same situation,
4 Mr. President, so it can be admitted.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 Thank you for your understanding and co-operation, Ms. Edgerton.
7 Let's bring in the witness.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 JUDGE KWON: My apology for your inconvenience, Mr. Djozo. So
10 you'll be asked by Mr. Karadzic.
11 Mr. Karadzic, let's start your cross-examination.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good morning to
13 everyone.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Djozo, good morning.
16 A. Good morning.
17 Q. May I ask you to tell me your father's name?
18 A. My father's name is Alija Djozo.
19 Q. And is Agan, Dzemal Agan, related to you in any way?
20 A. No. I don't know them.
21 Q. Thank you. Did you receive any kind of medal? Were you
22 decorated in the war?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you have any legal problems at any time earlier during the
25 Communists or currently?
Page 9570
1 A. No, I did not.
2 Q. Thank you. I didn't have the information about your father. I
3 have information about some other people with the same name as you, so
4 please don't mind these questions.
5 Can you please tell me how the introduction of the new
6 authorities proceeded in your municipality after the first multi-party
7 elections?
8 A. I don't know. I'm apolitical. I wasn't really interested in
9 politics, especially not in politics of nationalist parties, so I really
10 don't know.
11 Q. Thank you. Do you know that the police in your municipality
12 denied the implementation of an inter-party agreement and that the Serbs
13 never got the police posts that they were supposed to have and that this
14 caused a major crisis?
15 A. No, I'm not aware of that, and I wasn't really paying any
16 attention. I wasn't interested.
17 Q. Do you know that before the war the chief of the public security
18 station in the municipality of Stari Grad increased several times over
19 the number of reserve policemen who were exclusively ethnic Muslims?
20 A. With the aggression on Bosnia and Herzegovina, as far as I know,
21 the majority of Serb police members left not only the Stari Grad police
22 station but other police stations as well. And also, as far as I know,
23 the police reserve force, according to the law in force at the time,
24 could have been activated much earlier, and it was activated much
25 earlier, before the war broke out.
Page 9571
1 Q. Thank you. I'm making this break because of the interpreters, so
2 that you know why I'm waiting.
3 This is precisely what I'm talking about, Mr. Djozo. The
4 elections were in 1990. The Serbs were allocated certain posts at your
5 police station. They never got those posts, and much before the war
6 broke out, the chief of your station, I think his name was Bato or
7 Dahic -- actually, who was the chief of the Stari Grad police station,
8 please?
9 A. When I came to the police station in Stari Grad, the chief of the
10 police station was Mr. Enes Bezdrob.
11 Q. What about the commander. The commander of the station was
12 Ismet Dahic; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, the commander of the station was Ismet Dahic.
14 Q. Do you know that at the time many scores of police officers were
15 engaged in the reserve forces, including members of the underworld and
16 criminals, and none of these extra reserve forces were Serbs. Did you
17 know that?
18 A. As far as I know, in that police station, as well as in the other
19 police station, there were no criminals.
20 Q. I'm talking about the reserve policemen that your station
21 appointed and mobilised and to whom it issued weapons illegally and in
22 contravention of the rules. Did you know that in your municipality the
23 number of the reserve police forces was increased several times over,
24 above and beyond the numbers allowed by law?
25 A. When I came to the police station and began to work there, that
Page 9572
1 is all I know. I don't know what the classification of the post was
2 before that. I never knew how many policemen you were supposed to have
3 at the police station.
4 Q. You were a policeman when the war began. You began to work in
5 June or July 1992; is that correct?
6 A. Before the war broke out, I worked in Hidrogradnja. After that,
7 when the war broke out, when it began, I reported to the Stari Grad
8 Police Administration.
9 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of any investigations into the killing
10 of Serbs in your municipality?
11 A. I'm not aware of any such killings while I was in the Stari Grad
12 police station.
13 Q. Is Kazani located in your municipality?
14 A. Yes, Kazani is on the slopes of the Trebevic, and that is part of
15 the Stari Grad area.
16 Q. Thank you. Are you trying to say that you never heard that Serbs
17 were thrown into pits in Kazani, Serbs that had been captured on the
18 streets of your municipality, taken out of their apartments, taken there
19 and killed?
20 A. As far as I know, this was something that was under the control
21 of the army. I know that certain people were brought to trial who had
22 committed certain crimes, but I wasn't directly involved in the
23 commission of those acts or any other activities related to that
24 particular matter.
25 Q. What about your station? That is its area of responsibility.
Page 9573
1 Did they conduct any investigations into the killings of Serbs in your
2 municipality?
3 A. There were no killings of Serbs in the area covered by the
4 Stari Grad police station from the time that I was at the police station,
5 from 1992 up to the present. There were no killings of Serbs. We didn't
6 have information that Serbs were being killed in the manner that you have
7 described.
8 Q. Was there any other police station in the Stari Grad
9 municipality?
10 A. The only police station in Stari Grad is the Stari Grad police
11 station.
12 Q. And the killings of citizens, is that something that falls under
13 the jurisdiction of that police station?
14 A. In the event of any kind of killing or murder, an investigation
15 team is formed comprising the investigating judge, people from the CSB,
16 from homicide and sexual crimes department, as well as the duty officer
17 from the police station, from the sector where the crime was committed.
18 These were crimes, so this was something that was under the jurisdiction
19 of the CSB.
20 Q. The CSB at the level of?
21 A. At the level of the city of Sarajevo.
22 Q. And who provided other operative services to the CSB inspectors?
23 Is that -- that is -- is that something that is done by the local police
24 station?
25 A. In the event of any kind of a crime, the CSB is notified. It
Page 9574
1 wasn't important whether it was a grave crime or not. An investigation
2 team is formed after the police station is notified, and from each police
3 station the duty officer and the duty crime technician had to attend the
4 investigation, if it occurred, of course.
5 Q. And do you know that your authorities issued information and
6 warnings that the chasing down and hunting of Serbs on the streets of
7 your town is something that would no longer be tolerated?
8 A. No, I'm not aware of anything like that.
9 Q. Do you know Musan Topalovic, Caco?
10 A. I never saw that man. I did hear of him.
11 Q. Could you present to the Trial Chamber what you know about
12 Musan Topalovic, Caco.
13 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I'm really wondering what the
15 relevance of this line of questioning is to this witness's proffered
16 testimony.
17 JUDGE KWON: I was wondering as well.
18 Mr. Karadzic, we have only limited time. I would like you to
19 move on to the topics which the witness covered in his direct
20 examination, please.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. I have
22 to say a few words about this. I see that witnesses have been drawn,
23 including General Karavelic. We see that we will not have an opportunity
24 to test everything that the Prosecution put in the indictment. Now, we
25 are dealing with an area that was a real torture house for the Serbs. It
Page 9575
1 was his job, it was the competence of his police station and he seems to
2 know everything about everything except what happened to the Serbs, which
3 is a scandal. It was the jurisdiction of his police station. This is a
4 question of credibility --
5 JUDGE KWON: No. Move on to the real topics, please.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. P1988 is the document I would like to call up, the sketch that
8 you made. And while we're waiting, Mr. Djozo, I'll tell you that Musan
9 Topalovic, also known as Caco, and the man nicknamed Krusko and all the
10 most notorious criminals were the gang leaders, the army leaders in your
11 municipality.
12 JUDGE KWON: I would recommend you to move on to the topics which
13 will be covered by P1988.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P1988. Then I will have no
15 opportunity to test the credibility and the objectivity of this witness
16 and his bias, perhaps.
17 JUDGE KWON: It's unacceptable, Mr. Karadzic. Let's move on.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Djozo, please take a green pen this time, with the assistance
20 of the usher. You marked the cathedral here, didn't you?
21 A. Yes. I marked the cathedral.
22 Q. Between numbers 2 and 4, is there a place of worship missing?
23 A. If you mean the Serbian Orthodox Church, I can draw it.
24 Q. Do you know that the faculty of economics is a building that
25 belongs to that church? Can you mark that church which is actually a
Page 9576
1 Serbian cathedral church?
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. I would not agree, Mr. Djozo, that it overlooks that street. It
4 is next door to the faculty of economics, between numbers 2 and 4, and
5 this other complex of buildings is on Strossmayer Street.
6 A. As far as I know, this group of buildings at that belongs to the
7 Serbian Orthodox Church, together with the residences in that same
8 street, also belongs to people from the Serbian Orthodox Church, this
9 entire group of buildings.
10 Q. And where is the church itself? Could you mark it with a circle.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Thank you. Can you put a number there. Let's say 5.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Would you say that we were shooting at that church?
15 A. All I know is that we police officers had the duty with regard to
16 all places of worship, and especially the Serbian Orthodox Church in the
17 Stari Grad municipality, to protect and defend and give every assistance
18 to those people, the people in this church as well as the old Serbian
19 Orthodox Church in the Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street.
20 Q. Once you mentioned the old church, I will mention the murder of
21 that member of a wedding party on the 1st of March, and everything that
22 happened in that connection. Do you remember that priest Paripovic who
23 was driven around the town, made to wear some sort of board on his chest?
24 JUDGE KWON: That's not relevant.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
Page 9577
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Djozo, you suggested that this approaching fire had the
3 purpose of approaching and targeting the Markale marketplace.
4 A. Most of the people who moved around these streets, including
5 Kulina Bana, for instance, these streets were not very busy, actually,
6 and that goes for Ferhadija and the Sarajevo Defenders Street. They were
7 not very busy. Most people circulated along the
8 Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street.
9 Q. My question is, did this fire depicted in this picture as you
10 drew it actually targeted Markale? Were the weapons trained and aimed at
11 Markale?
12 A. It is quite certain that the fire targeted the busiest street. I
13 know that from my prior experience in the JNA during my regular military
14 service. I was trained to be a mortar platoon commander, and during my
15 training we practiced the proper way to do it.
16 Q. And that is the basis on which you conclude that the purpose was
17 to target Marsal Tita street, which was a busy one.
18 A. From the very beginning of the aggression on
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina --
20 Q. Please let's not waste time on --
21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
22 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
23 MS. EDGERTON: I just hear an awful lot of overlap between
24 question and answer, Your Honour, and I think it might be difficult for
25 our colleagues in the interpretation booths.
Page 9578
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. Djozo, because of that overlapping
2 we couldn't hear your answer to the previous question, "From the very
3 beginning of the aggression on Bosnia-Herzegovina," and then on we
4 couldn't hear anything. What did you say, Mr. Djozo?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the very beginning of the
6 aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina, the central part of Stari Grad
7 municipality was constantly shelled, mainly civilian areas, areas
8 swarming with civilians, and especially the neighbourhood of
9 Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Thank you. And how many shells fell on that street?
12 A. I couldn't possibly know. Thousands of shells landed on
13 Stari Grad, including Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street and the streets
14 around it.
15 Q. Out of all those thousands, can you single out 50 shells and tell
16 us what the investigation found?
17 A. I can tell you about the investigations I did.
18 Q. Mr. Djozo, do you agree that the war in Sarajevo lasted for
19 42 months?
20 A. I never counted those days and years. I know it was extremely
21 hard. I had no time to think about that. I had a wife and two children,
22 my father, my mother, brother, sister, sister-in-law, people who needed
23 my help.
24 Q. I have respect for that, but let us concentrate on this: On what
25 basis do you say that this was a case of ranging in, of test firing and
Page 9579
1 adjusting the aim on this area? Where did these four shells come from?
2 A. There are several questions in one, but I will try. At that time
3 the ballistics expert, who is the only one competent and responsible for
4 such a statement, wrote that the shell had come from the area of
5 Lukavica, Mount Trebevic, Vraca, that area.
6 Q. Do we have that finding, that report, so that we can test that
7 methodology?
8 A. All the findings, all the expert reports are available to the
9 Prosecution. I don't have any of them.
10 Q. In the documentation we received concerning these incidents,
11 there are no documents that could be put to the test. Which incident
12 would you say was a case of ranging in, test firing and adjusting the
13 aim?
14 A. It's not necessarily ranging in regarding any of these shells.
15 We believe that the target was Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street, which was
16 an especially busy area with a marketplace. We know that there were
17 large numbers of Sarajevo citizens there at all times.
18 Q. So it's not something that you established on any basis. It's
19 your assumption.
20 A. It was established later when so many people got killed.
21 Q. And how many shells landed in Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street in
22 connection with Markale and the Markale Market?
23 A. As far as I know, in the Markale I incident, one shell landed
24 killing people who happened to be there. And in Markale II, where I
25 didn't participate in the investigation, I only heard from the media
Page 9580
1 reports that the shell landed outside the market, the shopping centre,
2 and again killed people who were shopping there.
3 Q. So that place, which is the only place or perhaps one of few
4 places where people gathered in large numbers, over 360 days was targeted
5 twice. Markale I a couple of months before this ranging in, and
6 Markale II a couple of months after this ranging in.
7 Now, after testifying that this was a case of ranging in and
8 adjusting the aim, how do you explain that two shells only fell within
9 one year at this most important target?
10 A. Of course, many more shells landed in
11 Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street, not just these two. These two were the
12 most heinous crimes, causing many deaths. Otherwise, hundreds and
13 thousands of shells landed on Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street and the
14 surrounding area.
15 Q. I agree with you that it was something unprecedented, and it's
16 even more unprecedented because it was all staged, but in your opinion,
17 the impression you are trying to create is that we were lurking to target
18 Sarajevans in their favourite gathering places, and in all that year we
19 managed to hit Markale marketplace once and the Markale shopping centre
20 once. In 1994 the Markale Market, and the Markale shopping centre in
21 1995.
22 Now, where did other shells fall on these Markale shopping centre
23 and markets?
24 A. There is probably footage of the destroyed place of Stari Grad
25 from all the shells that fell, where we can see how many buildings were
Page 9581
1 damaged, how many people were hurt and killed. People did not only die
2 in these two places. People were being killed all over Stari Grad
3 municipality and all over the city of Sarajevo.
4 Stari Grad was visible from every position of the Army of
5 Republika Srpska. From every VRS position you could see where the shells
6 were falling, what was going on down there. All that was broadcast on
7 radio and television Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was all broadcast,
8 albeit with a different explanation, by the then Serbian agency SRNA.
9 They were saying that we are killing our own people, that I threw a
10 grenade to hurt myself and my colleagues.
11 Q. I am inviting you to stay away from generalisations.
12 This is the busiest gathering place, despite all your warnings
13 that it was dangerous. You are suggesting that we are ranging in and
14 adjusting the aim to hit them when they gather in the largest number. We
15 hit twice, you say, and we say that it's the work of your forces.
16 From number 3, let's say, to the eternal flame, how many shells
17 landed in this area which you say was the busiest in Sarajevo? Did any
18 third shell fall there?
19 A. I think you've just asked a dozen questions that I would take
20 time to answer. Could you please hand them to me one by one.
21 Q. Please, not Sarajevo in general. You are saying that you
22 couldn't prevent Sarajevan civilians from gathering in this place. The
23 Serbs were aiming there. Tell me, when did another shell fall in that
24 place?
25 A. I cannot present my evidence and speak about how many shells
Page 9582
1 landed there. I don't have those documents, but they do exist. They're
2 in the Office of the Prosecution. All the shells that fell there were
3 investigated by the Stari Grad police station, by the CSB in Sarajevo.
4 All this was recorded and archived, made available to the Prosecution,
5 and the Prosecution has this evidence.
6 Q. So you have no evidence that apart from these two shells, one of
7 which hit the shopping centre and the other hit the market, you have no
8 proof that a third shell ever fell on this busiest civilian gathering
9 place.
10 A. In this area.
11 Q. No, no, on this gathering place, Markale Market and Markale
12 shopping centre. You suggested to the Trial Chamber that the Serbs were
13 lying in wait to hit civilians in this busiest place.
14 Was ever a third shell? Do you have proof or is this just an
15 uncorroborated statement that won't stand up?
16 A. Not only was there a third, there were hundreds of shells that
17 fell on this area. Just before this there was a document from which we
18 see that shells hit Dzenetica Cikme street, Romanijska Street, and then
19 again Mula Mustafe Baseskije, the area of Centar municipality. In
20 Drvarksa Street children were killed. There was a secondary Catholic
21 school there. The VRS was targeting places that were the busiest, where
22 there were the most civilians. Most people moving around, most people
23 living there and gathering there. We felt it in Sarajevo. We people who
24 lived in Sarajevo felt it on our own skin. We know exactly how it
25 worked, how people got killed. It's not only the Muslims who got killed,
Page 9583
1 everybody did, Serbs, Muslims, Croats alike. Dozens and hundreds of
2 children were killed. So many children, 1500 children were killed in
3 Sarajevo.
4 Q. Mr. Djozo, none of this is true, but I'm asking you kindly to
5 refrain from generalisations. Just tell us the things that you can
6 prove. And you cannot give us any proof that a third shell ever fell on
7 the only place where you couldn't prevent civilians from gathering, as
8 you put it.
9 Now, I'm asking you about these shells. Was it ever established,
10 and using which methodology, that this came from the Serbian side?
11 A. The shell number 3 killed two people, several were wounded. When
12 we got there to the spot in Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street, which is not
13 more than 50 metres away from Markale, we found the mutilated body of a
14 man, his brains spilled on the tarmac. The same happened in spot
15 number 1 in my drawing. A number of people got killed there. This place
16 was a spot where shells landed before, but what I remember most clearly
17 was this time when two young men were killed, students of political
18 science. They had the same first name and I believe the same birthday.
19 People were killed at all hours, day and night. These -- this
20 spot that is marked on my drawing is a place where hundreds of shells
21 fell. In a number of cases we came and investigated.
22 Q. Just one thing. Was it established that these shells actually
23 came from Lukavica or wherever you said they came from?
24 A. Lukavica, Vraca, that area.
25 Q. Do you mean to say that this fire was ranging in and preparing
Page 9584
1 the weapons for the incident of the 28th of August, 1995?
2 A. It was certainly the targeting of the civilians who were moving
3 along Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street and the busiest places.
4 As for that hit of Markale, there must be clues, there must be
5 evidence. You should ask the people who fired these shells. Every
6 commander of a mortar battery has a record.
7 Q. Tell us, what is the time interval between these shells?
8 A. I cannot tell you exactly, but it was within two hours, between
9 12.00 and 2.00 p.m.
10 Q. Was that ever determined or not?
11 A. It has been determined, because we were there. We know when the
12 shells landed.
13 Q. Do you mean to say that when shell number 2 landed, or, let's
14 say, shell number 3 landed, those people, those civilians, if they were
15 civilians, just remained hanging around there to be hit again?
16 A. Two hours is a long time. If the first shell landed around noon
17 at number 1, and half an hour later another one fell in a different
18 place, and yet half an hour later a shell landed in a third place, people
19 have to move. At first they take cover in a basement. They wait.
20 Nothing happens for 30 minutes. They come out, and they continue on
21 their way, wherever they were going, and only then do the next shells
22 fall.
23 What we lived through in Sarajevo, and what we experienced during
24 on-site investigations in extinguishing fires, in giving first aid, tells
25 us that places were targeted a second time. It doesn't mean that when we
Page 9585
1 come to investigate after a shell immediately landed that another one
2 won't land soon again. Very often when the ambulance arrives, the
3 shelling would restart. When fire brigades came to extinguish fires,
4 those places were targeted again. And in Sarajevo, you have many firemen
5 who got killed precisely on their job. And people who were trying to
6 help the victims of an incident often got killed themselves in the
7 process. It was a way of killing.
8 Q. I will need more time to explore this. One other witness has
9 already said the same things, and I asked him how many investigators got
10 killed by such a second shell, and he said no one.
11 Give me one example of an incident where the on-site
12 investigators were killed by a follow-up shell. Just one.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Just with respect to that assertion of what
16 another witness might have said, I'm actually not so sure that that's
17 quite the case, and I wonder if we might have a reference.
18 JUDGE KWON: I remember having heard that a certain witness
19 didn't remember such event.
20 Albeit it's a very lengthy question, but could you answer the
21 last question? Whether you can give one example of an incident where the
22 on-site investigators were killed by a follow-up shell.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only talk about the
24 Stari Grad area, and I know that none of us were killed. But, yes,
25 shelling continued while we were investigating sites, and we had to run
Page 9586
1 for our lives.
2 JUDGE KWON: I note the time. It's time to --
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We lost this additional marking. I
4 was going to tender it together with the Serbian church.
5 JUDGE KWON: The usher's computer is having technical difficulty,
6 and so we'll try again when we resume at 11.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Djozo, do you remember that you marked on this
10 sketch an Orthodox church, the area of it and the place where it is?
11 Could you do that again with the green pen. Just wait till the Usher is
12 assisting you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm going to sketch approximately
14 how it was. That's it.
15 JUDGE KWON: Put number 5 on it.
16 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Djozo.
18 That will be admitted as Defence exhibit.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D908, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, continue your cross-examination.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we look at P1528 in
22 the e-court, please.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Now we're going to deal with Sedrenik, Mr. Djozo, and then later
25 we will come back to the centre of the town to throw light on certain
Page 9587
1 matters.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in on the upper
3 right-hand corner, please. And again the upper right-hand corner,
4 please. A little bit more if possible, this upper right-hand corner,
5 please. Thank you.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Djozo, does this help you now to orient yourself and to mark
8 the top of Grdonj, Sedam Suma, Pasino Brdo, Streliste, and to show us
9 where Barice and Mrkovici are too?
10 A. Barice and Mrkovici you cannot see here. They're probably on
11 some other part of the map. We do have Sedam Suma. Grdonj.
12 Q. Can you put the number 1 near Sedum Suma, and can you mark the
13 trig point of Grdonj. Can you circle that. And can you mark
14 Spicasta Stijena now, please.
15 A. It's very difficult to do that here. Let's say it's somewhere
16 here above the actual settlement.
17 Q. And can you mark Pasino Brdo now, Streliste, Hladivode.
18 A. This is Streliste more or less, because a large part of this area
19 is described as Streliste but actually doesn't occupy all of that
20 territory.
21 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us -- now, actually, can you indicate
22 where the line of separation was according to your best recollection? If
23 you can do it with blue.
24 A. I did not take part in these actions in this -- any combat
25 action, so I really am not able to say where the lines are. What I know
Page 9588
1 for sure is that it was somewhere here or around Spicasta Stijena, a
2 little bit above, but I cannot be absolutely sure. I wasn't there ever.
3 It's somewhere up towards the Smreke and Barice. I had heard that it
4 was -- that there where the lines were. I've never actually been to the
5 lines, so I really don't know.
6 JUDGE KWON: For the record, Mr. Djozo, red marking seen behind
7 the blue line, just to the right side of the trig point, refers to the --
8 I forgot that.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Grdonj.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Spicasta Stijena?
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that refers to the --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Spicasta Stijena.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Then it's sufficient, yes. Let's
14 continue.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Djozo, the peak of Grdonj, the actual trig point, was under
17 the control of the Bosnian-Herzegovinian army; is that correct? And this
18 blue line would need to be a little bit more to the north in relation to
19 the trig point.
20 A. What I know for sure is that Spicasta Stijena was taken up by the
21 Army of Republika Srpska. They took it right at the beginning of the
22 war. That is where they dug in, and they stayed there till the end,
23 right up until just before integration.
24 Q. And what about the southern slope of Grdonj? Who had control of
25 that?
Page 9589
1 A. Grdonj's a large area. I can mark it. You can see in the middle
2 of the map towards the top that it also says Grdonj. Grdonj is a large
3 area of Sarajevo where people were living then and are still today.
4 I was in the Stari Grad municipality area working at the
5 Stari Grad police station throughout the whole war, so I'm not really
6 knowledgeable about this.
7 Q. I was hoping that you would know where the lines were. Most
8 people that we had here before knew where the lines were, so I thought
9 you would too. We don't need to tender this, but do you agree that
10 Sedam Suma are below Grdonj and around the peak of Grdonj? Is that
11 correct?
12 A. Sedam Suma is also a large area that was forested and a part of
13 the forest was cut down during the war. It's a wooded area. When I said
14 that it was known where the lines were approximately, that would also
15 include the cutting of the trees that were in that area. So the area
16 where the trees were cut would indicate that there were no lines as soon
17 as you actually entered the woods, that would mean that these were the
18 lines of the Army of Republika Srpska.
19 Q. Would a photograph help you?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at 1D2869.
21 JUDGE KWON: Are you happy to lose this, Ms. Edgerton, his
22 markings? Maybe on the system.
23 MS. EDGERTON: I'm happy to lose those, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2869.
Page 9590
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. This is the panorama of that area. If necessary, we can zoom in.
3 Can you mark the peak of Grdonj here, please.
4 A. Yes, of course, I can. It would be good to zoom in a little bit
5 on this part.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in on the horizon,
7 please. We can cut off a little bit more of the sky if necessary. Let's
8 do a little bit more zooming in, please.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. All right. Can you now please mark the peak of Grdonj?
11 A. The peak of Grdonj.
12 Q. An arrow from the sky pointing down to the peak. And if you can
13 put the number 1 next to it.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. This is where we see some relay installations. They were there
16 before the war also.
17 A. Well, I'm not familiar with the terrain before the war, because I
18 never went there.
19 Q. Thank you. Can you now mark Spicasta Stijena.
20 A. I'm going to draw a line where Spicasta Stijena is.
21 Q. And can you put the number 2 there, please.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Would you please mark Pasino Brdo now?
24 A. Pasino Brdo or Streliste is located to the right, behind this
25 part where you can see that the trees are cut, Pasino Brdo is behind this
Page 9591
1 area.
2 Q. All right. We're going to see that later. Can you now mark the
3 area where the trees were cut during the war.
4 A. I'm going to indicate that with a dotted line.
5 Q. Can you mark that with the number 3.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. So this clearing was made during the war. People cut the trees
8 down in order to have wood for heating; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you mark Sedrenik, the Sedrenik settlement?
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. This is Sedrenik. There aren't too many houses there, do you
13 agree?
14 A. I don't know how many houses are there. We never thought about
15 how many there were, but there is a significant number.
16 Q. Do you know that at the top where the arrow indicates Grdonj was
17 in the hands of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
18 A. I cannot be certain of that. I was never there. I really
19 couldn't say whether it was in the hands of the Army of Republika Srpska
20 or the B and H Army. At least the area where the line of separation was.
21 The only thing that I'm sure of is that we were never safe passing in
22 this area. Through the settlement and along the settlement there is a
23 street here, Sedrenik, that you can pass. We were never safe there.
24 When you say Spicasta Stijena, this is the place marked with the
25 number 2. There were several trenches along the surface of
Page 9592
1 Spicasta Stijena. They were quite long. The line and the trenches were
2 not only in this part where the Army of Republika Srpska was, but it
3 stretched along this edge, along the top of Spicasta Stijena.
4 Q. Thank you. In a different case it was established that the lines
5 were on the northern slope of Grdonj and in that area, right up until
6 Spicasta Stijena, they were only 20 metres apart. Do you agree with
7 that?
8 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer, Mr. Djozo, just a second.
9 No, it's totally unacceptable to refer to a decision in other
10 cases. Reformulate your question, Mr. Karadzic.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not talking about a decision
12 but actually I referred to testimony from another case, but very well.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Did you know that both sides had lines here, the B and H Army and
15 the Army of Republika Srpska?
16 A. It's possible that they were there, but I don't know where the
17 lines were and which areas they covered.
18 Q. Thank you. Was Mrkovici and Barice or the population in that
19 area that comprised that army, did they ever try to capture the
20 settlement or the neighbourhood of Sedrenik?
21 A. I don't know who made up the Army of Republika Srpska. In the
22 same way that I heard that there were some attacks. Allegedly there is a
23 tower behind which was the subject of a dispute of some firing, but I
24 really don't know anything else.
25 Q. Thank you. Did you know that the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina
Page 9593
1 carried out numerous offensives via Spicasta Stijena in an attempt to
2 break through to Barice and Mrkovici?
3 A. That is even -- that is something that I know even less about. I
4 don't know anything about attempts to reach the peak of Spicasta Stijena,
5 because from the very beginning, the Army of Republika Srpska was there.
6 It was very hard to capture this, and we saw that during the
7 reintegration. We could see bunkers. We could see roads laid down,
8 trenches, that this was very professionally done, and it wasn't possible
9 to capture that area.
10 As far as I know, there were no attempts for the army to enter
11 Barice through Spicasta Stijena. Mrkovici is much farther than Barice.
12 I'm really not able to give you a definite answer to that question.
13 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that as a soldier or a policeman
14 trenches and bunkers are not an offensive tool but a defensive tool?
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, it's not for the witness. Could you
16 come to the issues which the witness can give answers.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Djozo, you said yesterday that this forest was cut down, the
20 trees and the woods were cut down for firewood during the war. This is
21 one assertion. The other assertion is that the Serbs did not fire at the
22 people who were cutting down the trees. Some understanding of yours, a
23 third matters is why the Serbs didn't shoot is that -- is because it
24 suited the Serbs to have these trees cut down.
25 Can you please tell us from a military point of view why would it
Page 9594
1 suit the Serbs that these trees be cut down?
2 A. The Army of Republika Srpska allowed this to happen because it
3 meant that this terrain was cleared. It wouldn't be possible to approach
4 the area. They could see who was moving there, if anyone was moving
5 around in that area. So this was something that created a kind of secure
6 area for them. They knew what was going on and how far people were
7 moving, how far the lines were, but I really don't know if there were any
8 lines there. In the first place, I didn't come to this place, and I
9 didn't cut down any firewood.
10 Q. Thank you. When you came to this place to cut down the trees,
11 did you cross the Muslim lines or were they further ahead?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The witness did go
13 there to cut down trees.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't notice at any point any
15 lines. I was there approximately where these houses are. There was --
16 there was some trees there that were not cut down, and people would come
17 there.
18 This other part to the right indicated with a dotted line is an
19 area that I never went to and I don't know if there were any lines
20 were -- I don't know if there were any lines, and if there were, I don't
21 know where they were.
22 Q. Thank you. You are speculating about the reasons why the Serbs
23 didn't fire. Do you have any proof of that or is that just something
24 that you concluded?
25 A. We would go there at night. I myself also went there at 2.00 or
Page 9595
1 3.00 in the morning to cut down a tree. The others did the same thing.
2 We didn't go there during the day. Had we gone there during the day,
3 things probably wouldn't have been the same. They could have heard
4 something, cutting going on. They could have assumed that trees were
5 being cut, but they didn't shoot. During the day we didn't dare go to
6 that area. Whoever moved around in that area from Sedrenik, they would
7 get shot at, and many people were killed and wounded there.
8 Q. Well, we'll hear about that later on, but you probably knew that
9 the army had night-vision capabilities and they could have seen what was
10 going on at night. They could have just disregarded this action, and
11 they could have decided not to do anything. In other words, are you
12 saying that they heard that something was being done but that they didn't
13 know exactly what was being done?
14 JUDGE MORRISON: Mr. Karadzic, how could this witness know what
15 other people heard or didn't hear. That's a question nobody can answer.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Can we now please date and initial this photograph, and then we
19 can tender it.
20 A. [Marks]
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we tender this, please.
22 JUDGE KWON: Could you put the date and your initials. That's
23 10th of December, I take it.
24 That will be admitted.
25 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D909, Your Honours.
Page 9596
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Can we briefly look at 1D01958. Do you agree that this is the
4 security administration of the Supreme Command of the armed forces of the
5 BiH, dated the 29th of July, 1993?
6 A. I'm seeing this for the first time.
7 Q. All right. You're seeing it for the first time, but is that what
8 it says? Is this the bulletin of the security administration of the Army
9 of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
10 A. I'm saying I'm seeing this for the first time. This is the first
11 time that I'm looking at this document. I've never seen a document which
12 says that it is the bulletin of the security administration of the
13 Supreme Staff command. So I can see what it says here.
14 Q. All right. Thank you.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 4 now, please.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Djozo, could you please read the two paragraphs from the top.
18 Could you please read that out loud.
19 A. It says here that on the 26th of July, 1993, wood was being cut
20 down.
21 Q. Can you please read this?
22 A. "On the 26th of July, 1993, a group of civilians at
23 Vilsonovo Setaliste, in front of the positions of the HVO units was
24 cutting down trees. It's indicative that the aggressor did not fire even
25 though they had clearly visible targets in front of them. Soldiers of
Page 9597
1 the HVO drove the civilians away upon the intervention of fighters of the
2 10th Mountain Brigade and the aggressor opened fire only after the
3 civilians left.
4 "On the 25th of --"
5 Q. All right. You don't need to read further.
6 Mr. Djozo, do you see that in the middle of town at
7 Vilsonovo Setaliste in front of the positions of the HVO units civilians
8 were cutting down trees and the Serbian Army did not fire until the
9 civilians went away?
10 A. Yes. That is what it says here. I mean, nothing is being
11 disputed in this particularly because Vilsonovo Setaliste, Wilson's
12 Promenade, is along the Miljacka River, along the line of separation.
13 The Army of Republika Srpska was located at Grbavica, and depending on
14 how you look at it, I don't know exactly where the positions were, they
15 were in some of those buildings. It's possible that they didn't shoot.
16 It's possible that there was nobody there at that particular time, so
17 they didn't see what was going on.
18 Q. The river is 50 metres broad there, so that is the distance
19 between the lines. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes. That is the breadth of the river. Then there is the bank
21 of the Miljacka River, and then on the other side you have the promenade.
22 You've got the street, and then you have buildings as well. That's on
23 one side. And then you have the same thing on the other side. Vilsonovo
24 Setaliste is a long street stretching along through Sarajevo all the way
25 to the centre.
Page 9598
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like to tender
2 this document now. This is a document produced by the BH Army, and
3 that's not in dispute. It's indisputable. Can this be admitted, because
4 this also sheds some light on the cutting of the wood on Grdonj.
5 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
6 MS. EDGERTON: I have no idea how this sheds any light on the
7 cutting of the wood in Grdonj. However, the witness has read a paragraph
8 into the record and commented on it. I don't see why we need the
9 document which is four pages long any further.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If the record is sufficient.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber tends to agree with Ms. Edgerton, but
13 we'll admit only this part of this document. So this part, this
14 paragraph on page 4, will be admitted when the translation is over. So
15 in the meantime, we will put that marked for identification.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D910, marked for identification,
17 Your Honours.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we now please see
19 65 ter 7048 on the screens.
20 MS. EDGERTON: That's P1058 as well, I think.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. While we are waiting for it to appear, Mr. Djozo, could you tell
23 us which brigades were active and operated in the area covered by your
24 police station, in your precinct, in other words? Which BH Army brigades
25 operated there?
Page 9599
1 A. Well, I know there was a brigade, or maybe not even a
2 brigade-strength unit in the area of Grdonj, Sedrenik, at Bistrik in the
3 Trebevic area, but which brigade specifically, I really don't know that I
4 can comment on that. We did not have much in common with the army. We
5 did not co-ordinate our actions with them, nor did we have access to
6 their areas of responsibilities. They had their own area of
7 responsibility and we had ours, the police.
8 Q. Well, look at this map. Would you agree would me that it says a
9 working map of the Chief of Staff, the command of the 12th Division of
10 the land forces, and then it says the beginning is on the 1st of January,
11 1995, and end at 1019 hours.
12 A. That's what it says.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please zoom in on the
14 position where it says the municipality Stari Grad.
15 JUDGE KWON: Please pause. Now you can continue.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Was Sedrenik the area of responsibility of the 105th Brigade?
19 A. Well, I don't know that. I was not a member of the army. I
20 wasn't a member of that brigade, and I don't know what their area of
21 responsibility was.
22 Q. Thank you. In your statement you said that Sedrenik was a
23 civilian settlement or neighbourhood. Now, my question is: Was Sedrenik
24 a military area?
25 A. The Sedrenik neighbourhood was a civilian area, a civilian
Page 9600
1 settlement.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now zoom in on Stari Grad
4 municipality. We saw the title and the source of this document, and now
5 I would like us to focus and zoom in on the town itself.
6 Let's focus on the eastern part. This is the west.
7 JUDGE KWON: Where the number 115 appears, Mr. Karadzic?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Now we have the area of
9 Stari Grad. Could we now zoom in on the right-hand portion. Perhaps one
10 more time, if possible. Thank you.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Djozo, would you please mark Grdonj hill, and we can also see
13 the trig point on the map for Grdonj.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Thank you. Could we -- could you please put number 1 there.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Thank you. Would you now please put a circle around Grdonj
18 settlement and Sedrenik settlement.
19 A. Well, if we could zoom in a little more it would be easier, but
20 I'll try to do it. It's approximately here.
21 Q. What about the Grdonj neighbourhood or settlement?
22 A. Well, as I see trig points here, I cannot see any houses there,
23 and I'm not sure whether this is actually the settlement, because on the
24 other map I saw on the right-hand side where it said Grdonj.
25 Now, here we can see it, and I can underline that.
Page 9601
1 Q. Yes. That's where the word "Grdonj" is printed, but the staff of
2 the 2nd Battalion was in Grdonj settlement, correct? That's the little
3 arrow where it says number 2.
4 A. Well, yes. The arrow with the number 2 is there, but where the
5 staff was, I don't know.
6 Q. Well, that's what the arrow is indicating.
7 Now, below that can you see that there is a symbol for a mortar?
8 A. Well, I don't know what a mortar symbol is. Do you mean this
9 round circle, black circle?
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Yes, the dome with these two antennae, as it were.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Djozo is saying that he is not aware of this
14 kind of map. There is no point in continuing that line of questioning.
15 Put your case to the witness and see how we can go from there.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Would you please now underline Barice village and Donje Biosko
19 village. You mentioned those in your evidence.
20 A. I can locate Barice.
21 Q. Well, to the right of that is Donje Biosko.
22 A. Well, I also see Odzak, it's here somewhere. Donje Biosko should
23 be around here.
24 Q. Would you please now underline Hladivode?
25 A. [Marks]
Page 9602
1 Q. Mr. Djozo, would you please put a circle around the staff of the
2 1st Battalion, because this little flag there, symbol, indicates that?
3 A. Do you mean the "3BB"?
4 Q. No, where "1BB" is. Mr. Djozo, am I correct that you marked as
5 Sedrenik only a tiny hamlet, whereas the Sedrenik settlement is actually
6 the area where the headquarters of the 1st Battalion is?
7 A. Well, Sedrenik is an area. It is an entire area. It can be
8 larger or smaller, but the settlement itself, just at the foot of
9 Spicasta Stijena, that's what I marked there.
10 Q. And the place below, that's not Sedrenik settlement; is that
11 correct?
12 A. Well, it's very hard to see how far it stretches actually on a
13 map of this type. It's not very large.
14 Q. Could you please underline Donje Mrkonje. Can you see that?
15 That's above Barice.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, the 3rd Mountain Battalion, where
18 was it deployed? The staff, its headquarters. 3BB? Is that in
19 Barutana?
20 A. Well, Barutana is, as far as I know, the settlement along
21 Moscanica river -- or rather, stream. You can't really see Sedrenik from
22 there.
23 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us where the headquarters of the
24 152nd Brigade -- or, rather, these are not -- this is not the brigade
25 level. These are the 2nd and 3rd Battalions, indicated with the arrow.
Page 9603
1 A. The 152nd Mountain Brigade?
2 Q. Well, right in front of it you see numbers 2 and 3?
3 A. Well, it's around here that the barracks at Vratnik were.
4 Q. Could you please just put a circle at the bottom of those two
5 little flags?
6 A. [Marks]
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think we might have a problem
8 because we didn't put any numbers next to these, but we can go back to
9 that.
10 JUDGE KWON: I waited with patience. I told you to put your case
11 to the witness. Now I think it's the time.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. My case is the following, Mr. Djozo: This entire area was
15 militarised and very densely populated by military troops, that the
16 brigade had 5.500 to 6.000 soldiers, and they had their headquarters and
17 all the infrastructure of the 1st and 2nd Battalion of the 152nd Brigade,
18 and also the battalions of the 105th Brigade; is that correct?
19 A. Well, I don't know how many troops there were there. If the
20 number is 5.000, that's really a large number, but I have no clue how
21 many men there were in those units, where those units were, where their
22 headquarters were. I know nothing of any of that.
23 Q. Can you please look where there is a number 105 written in on a
24 small -- on this little flag that is not a triangular shape but rather
25 like a rectangle, and then there a slope, an angle there. Where it says
Page 9604
1 105, that's in the very centre of town where the shells fell. You see
2 there it says 105 and 152. Can you see that?
3 A. Yes, I can see it. I wonder if this is Bjelave or --
4 Q. That's Trampina Street. Would you agree with me that
5 Trampina Street runs along the eastern border of the main park?
6 A. I know of Trampina Ulica. I assume -- I mean I never actually
7 walked along that street. I know of it. If someone were to ask me now,
8 Could you take me to Trampina street, I probably couldn't.
9 Q. Very well. Thank you. Would you please mark
10 Hamdije Kresevljakovica Street here and --
11 JUDGE KWON: Just a second before we go on. Mr. Djozo, you said
12 you did not know how many troops there were there. Does this mean that
13 you do not dispute the location of those several military units that
14 existed at the time as indicated by this map, irrespective of their
15 strength?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, first of all, I don't know
17 when this map was marked, what year this relates to, and what it really
18 depicts.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. The card is the 15th -- of the 15th of March, 1995. That's when
21 this operation was to commence, and it was to end in September, sometime
22 in September. Now, as you know, this situation did not -- the military
23 situation here did not change from 1992 all the way up until the
24 Dayton Accords.
25 A. Well, as I've already said, I'm a police officer. I was only a
Page 9605
1 policeman. I did not have any contact with the military. They were not
2 our superiors. They did not command us or order -- issue any orders to
3 us.
4 I can see what's written on this map, but what this actually
5 depicts, I don't know. I've never actually been to any of those
6 locations marked there, where you say that there are headquarters or
7 commands, so this doesn't really say much to me.
8 Q. Thank you. But, Mr. Djozo, you testified here that Serbs
9 actually targeted civilians and civilian targets, that Sedrenik was a
10 civilian neighbourhood, that there was no military justification for
11 opening fire.
12 Now, my question is: Do you know or do you actually dispute that
13 in your precinct there were 105th, 152nd, and 115th Brigades deployed
14 with a number of attached companies? So do you deny that these troops
15 were actually deployed in this confined area?
16 A. I did not say either way. I know that there were some troops
17 there. Now, what brigades or how many of them or what the manpower was,
18 I don't know anything about that, who their commanders were or anything
19 of that sort. I've heard of some of this, but I don't know whether they
20 were deployed here or in some other area. Sedrenik is a civilian
21 neighbourhood, was a civilian neighbourhood, where the people who were
22 from that part of Sarajevo lived. Of course, some of them had already
23 left because they could not bear the pressure, and they tried to escape
24 the shelling and the sniper fire that was opened on them from
25 Spicasta Stijena.
Page 9606
1 Q. We'll come to that. Now, would you agree with me that
2 Mehina Kafana is --
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the place. Could
4 the accused please repeat it.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. So is Mehina Kafana on the main road there?
7 A. I heard of Mehina Kafana, or Meho's cafe, but I had never been
8 there. I don't know where that cafe is. If it is here on that road
9 above the cemetery. I don't know where that road leads.
10 Q. Thank you. Can you just help us, please. Where we see number 12
11 next to Skenderija, which means the headquarters of the 12th Division --
12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, in relation to this map, I think we
13 heard everything we can hear from the witness from his previous answer.
14 Let us move on.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We'll move on.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Do you understand, Mr. Djozo, now that your statement that this
18 is a civilian neighbourhood and that fire was opened on civilian areas is
19 not really true? And can you see that there were a lot of military
20 installations there? Do you see all the infrastructure that was entered
21 on this map? Do you agree that this is actually a militarised area?
22 A. Well, for the Army of Republika Srpska, the hospital was also
23 considered a military area, as well as the maternity hospital.
24 Now, you should know best, because you were the supreme commander
25 and you knew what kind of orders were issued and how everything was done.
Page 9607
1 Q. Thank you. Would you please put your signature and date on this
2 and then we can move on.
3 A. [Marks]
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender it.
5 JUDGE KWON: It will be helpful to understand witness's evidence.
6 We'll admit it.
7 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D911, Your Honours.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. You took part in a number of investigations into sniping
11 incidents in Sedrenik, and you testified in two cases before this
12 Tribunal, in the Milosevic and Perisic cases; correct?
13 A. Yes, I participated in a number of on-site investigations.
14 Q. In the Milosevic case, you said that there were some 100 sniper
15 victims in Sedrenik, many of them children who were on their way to
16 school, whereas in the Perisic case you corrected yourself, and you said
17 that there were some 50 to 100 victims of the shelling and sniping
18 incidents together; is that correct?
19 A. I took part in some on-site investigations where children, women,
20 and elderly were killed, and about two months ago, I was with some
21 acquaintances, sitting. We were chatting and talking about --
22 reminiscing and discussing the wartime events and days, and there was a
23 person in my company who mentioned that she was in Sedrenik throughout
24 the war and that her father had been killed in Sedrenik.
25 Q. Can we please stay away from people's stories.
Page 9608
1 Now, in your amalgamated statement, in paragraph 20 and also in
2 your statement of 25 November 1995, you said that there were hundreds of
3 victims killed in the sniping, and later on, you said that the number of
4 victims in total was somewhere between 50 and 100 victims who were killed
5 both in shelling and sniping incidents; is that correct?
6 A. Well, you have to allow me to finish what I was trying to say.
7 Q. Well, I'm sorry, but my time is limited, and the stories that
8 were told to you in a cafe, well, we don't have --
9 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to add something to your previous
10 answer, Mr. Djozo?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Talking with
12 this person, she told me, actually, that her father had been killed at
13 Sedrenik, that his name was Ibrahim Podrug, and that he was hit by a
14 sniper, and that his abdominal artery was severed. I told that person
15 that I actually took part in that on-site investigation, but I did not
16 actually see the victim because he had already been taken to hospital at
17 Kosevo. And then she told me, "Well, you know, it was then broadcast on
18 Radio Sarajevo that he was the 100th victim, the 100th man who was killed
19 by fire opened from Spicasta Stijena. So that's what I was trying to
20 say. In other words, we did know, we did have some information about the
21 approximate figure, that over a hundred people were killed up there in
22 sniping or shelling incidents. But what was so striking was that I heard
23 this story about this man, Ibrahim Podrug, who was actually named as the
24 100th victim of fire opened from Spicasta Stijena.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 9609
1 Q. Well, I will put it to you, Mr. Djozo, that there were not 100,
2 far from 100 victims. There weren't even ten in total. But can we
3 please now rely on your knowledge, because you are a police officer who
4 is testifying here about your investigations that you participated in.
5 A. Well, of course --
6 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to comment, Mr. Djozo, on
7 Mr. Karadzic's statement that it's not -- there were not far from
8 100 victims, there weren't even 10 in total.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: And of those ten, some
10 were just grazed and wounded by the fire.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that is a ridiculous
12 statement. We know exactly how many people were killed. We kept a
13 record, and I'm just telling you here this bit of information that
14 Ibrahim Podrug was the 100th victim of fire opened from Spicasta Stijena.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 Let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Thank you. I really appreciate what you've just said on
19 condition that we actually be provided the material that you are quoting
20 there, that you actually know the exact number of victims, of civilians,
21 who had been killed by Serb fire.
22 Now, can you tell us Sehid's were there in Sedrenik and how many
23 victims were victims of Sehid fire? Do you know that or not? How many
24 war casualties were there?
25 A. Well, I don't. How could I know, I wasn't there.
Page 9610
1 Q. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now have 65 ter 09713.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. It is a report of an on-site investigation where you were the
5 duty officer at the public security station in Stari Grad; correct?
6 A. Let me see which record it is.
7 Q. The wounding of Dervisa Selmanovic.
8 A. Yes, I investigated this site.
9 Q. Is it true that you did the on-site investigation report based on
10 the statement of a physician at the hospital and the statement of Dervisa
11 Selmanovic herself whom you later visited at her home?
12 A. I can describe how it was. Somebody informed the police station
13 Stari Grad that a bullet was fired by a firearm from Spicasta Stijena,
14 hitting Dervisa Selmanovic. I informed the investigating judge on duty,
15 and according to the Law on Criminal Procedure, Article 154, had the
16 right and authorised me and a scenes of crime officer and ballistics
17 experts from CSB Sarajevo to go on the site and investigate, and we did.
18 We did not find Dervisa there, because the incident happened
19 around 10.00, 11.00. She had gone out into her own yard at number 56 in
20 order to collect firewood when she was hit in the left upper leg. That's
21 the information we got.
22 She had been taken to the hospital where it was found that her
23 injury was light. We only photographed the site but were unable to
24 interview Ms. Selmanovic on the spot. We just got that information from
25 the people who were there.
Page 9611
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2436, please. I believe this is
2 an associated Prosecution exhibit. Isn't it? If not, I tender this
3 record.
4 JUDGE KWON: Report of this witness, 9713?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought the Prosecution had
6 tendered this.
7 JUDGE KWON: Can I get a confirmation from you.
8 MS. EDGERTON: No, we did not, because it relates to a dropped
9 incident.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Would you like to tender that?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, we would.
12 JUDGE KWON: That will be admitted.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D912, Your Honours.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Please, could you now mark the place --
16 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I don't believe in my memory -- we
17 had English translation?
18 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Could you now mark the house of Dervisa Selmanovic, the place
22 where you went on the on-site investigation.
23 A. This shows Spicasta Stijena, the Sedrenik settlement, and the
24 Vahid cemetery. I can mark the settlement, but I can't mark the house.
25 I did not even photograph this. It was the scenes of crime officer who
Page 9612
1 took photographs.
2 Q. Then mark the settlement which includes her house and put
3 number 1 there.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Could you put number 2 at the top of Grdonj hill.
6 A. If that's where the aerials are. I'm not sure. I can only be
7 sure about Spicasta Stijena.
8 Q. Mark Spicasta Stijena then.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Which method did you use to determine that the shot came from
11 Spicasta Stijena rather than any other location on this picture?
12 A. The ballistics man determined exactly where it came from, but
13 according to the neighbours of Dervisa Selmanovic, the witnesses, we know
14 how she was standing, where she was standing, and where she was facing,
15 and where the bullet could have come from.
16 Q. Let's see the report of that ballistics expert to check that. Do
17 you have it?
18 A. Well, the reports are with the court and the prosecutor's office
19 in Sarajevo. None of us acted on our own behalf. We could only
20 investigate on-site by authorisation from the Judge.
21 Q. Do you want to say that there was a trench of the VRS there, or
22 perhaps it was behind Spicasta Stijena, in the field?
23 A. After the war, when we toured these trenches, it was not just one
24 trench. Trenches ran across this length, and there were several sniper
25 emplacements.
Page 9613
1 Q. Could you mark with blue the lines of Bosnia and Herzegovina Army
2 and the red -- and in red the VRS lines.
3 A. I'd like to be able to, but I don't know where those military
4 defence lines were. What I know is that in this area of Sedrenik
5 settlement there were none. I went there with the police patrol leader,
6 and there were no trenches of the ABH army there. We didn't go any
7 further in this sector. This is already the sector covered by the Centar
8 police station.
9 Q. At the top of Grdonj do you dispute that there were ABH lines and
10 trenches?
11 A. Whether they were there or in some other place, I don't know. I
12 didn't go there.
13 Q. Do you dispute that to the east of Spicasta Stijena there were
14 BH Army lines facing Serbian lines which were in the woods and behind the
15 woods? Not on Spicasta Stijena itself but to the east. Is it true that
16 there were ABH lines?
17 A. I'm telling you again I've never been to visit those lines. I
18 don't know where they were. It's possible that they were there, but I've
19 never really seen them.
20 JUDGE KWON: Sorry to interrupt you. I wanted to remind you that
21 you'll have about -- a bit more than an hour left. The witness is not
22 aware of the confrontation line or such things. I would recommend you to
23 concentrate on more important issues.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Just one more question. Is it true that this area around the
Page 9614
1 mosque also belongs to the Sedrenik settlement?
2 A. All I know is that this mosque is recent. It was maybe opened a
3 year ago, and new houses were built there. There are many new houses. A
4 new school was built. It's been 18 years since the war. All this is
5 growing and getting larger and larger, and this area is sort of blending
6 with Sedrenik.
7 I know that there is a settlement or a neighbourhood called
8 Bakije. Every street, every neighbourhood has its own name. This area
9 at the foot of Spicasta Stijena is Sedrenik.
10 Q. Thank you. Your initials and date, please.
11 A. [Marks]
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be received.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D913, Your Honours.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Did you know that next to Mehina Kafana, in a privately owned
17 house, the HQ of the 105th Brigade was located?
18 A. I don't know what you understood HQ to mean. I never went there.
19 If there were any commands there, I don't know where they were. I don't
20 know in which building it could have been.
21 Q. The BH Army documents referred to the house next to Mehina cafe.
22 In your report, however, to move to another subject, you said that
23 Dervisa Selimovic was injured in her left leg, but according to other
24 documents she was wounded in the right leg.
25 A. The first reports that we, in the police, received was that she
Page 9615
1 was wounded in the leg. We were not able to interview her, so we had to
2 find her and talk to her. Since she lived in Sedrenik previously, she
3 left Sedrenik maybe she was because she was wounded there, but
4 subsequently, I don't know how much later, a month or more later, we
5 managed to locate her. It was not far from Kosevo Hospital. Dzemal
6 Alica [phoen] Street, I believe. And we wanted to talk to her to see how
7 she was wounded, what actually had happened. I went to that address. I
8 found Mrs. Selmanovic, sat down together with her, took her medical file
9 that she kept with her. I photocopied it, and it was established from
10 talking to her and from the documents that she was wounded not in the leg
11 that the witnesses and other people in the hospital told us but in the
12 other leg.
13 Q. Is it true that she herself once said before investigators that
14 she was wounded in the left leg and another time that she was wounded in
15 the right leg? If you want me to, I'll call up a document.
16 A. I don't know what kind of statements she made. After talking to
17 her in her apartment where she was residing, I never saw her again.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we briefly take a look at
19 1D2810.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, this is a lot of time we've spent now
21 on an incident that's been dropped and dropped for quite some time, and
22 I'm just wondering the utility of this as this was not part of the
23 witness's proffered evidence.
24 JUDGE KWON: You said it was dropped. Was it in the indictment
25 at all, or is it just one of the unscheduled incidents?
Page 9616
1 MS. EDGERTON: I'll tell you exactly when it was dropped in a few
2 moments, but, no, it's not an unscheduled incident either.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Was someone convicted for this
4 incident?
5 MS. EDGERTON: I'll verify, but I think it was dropped in the
6 first 73 bis filing, 31 August 2009, but I will verify.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. In any event, I'm just -- I was
8 wondering -- I was posing the same question to myself. Where are you
9 leading with this line of questions which is not included in the
10 indictment and never touching upon the items the witness dealt with in
11 his chief evidence? Probably we may exercise more robust exercise in
12 limiting your time, Mr. Karadzic.
13 Let's continue. What is this?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect,
15 Your Excellency, this about Spicasta Stijena, where there were no
16 trenches, no snipers, whereas this witness testified in another case and
17 General Milosevic was convicted for this incident. I want to show that
18 this entire investigation was arbitrary and geared at blackening and
19 convicting Serbs, and this is a pattern.
20 JUDGE KWON: It has nothing to do with your trial, Mr. Karadzic.
21 What are you going to ask in relation to the judgement we are
22 seeing at this moment? What is your question?
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Djozo, in which case and using which methodology did you
25 precisely determine that somebody shot somebody from Spicasta Stijena?
Page 9617
1 Please direct us to that evidence.
2 A. All the records, all the evidence, all the on-site investigations
3 conducted into firing incidents from Spicasta Stijena are kept at the
4 Cantonal Court and the High Court in Sarajevo, and every time there was
5 an investigating judge and somebody from the CSB Stari Grad present.
6 Ballistics experts made determinations, and according to the information
7 I have, including some information shown me here again, the UNPROFOR
8 agreed also with the conclusions made concerning sniping from
9 Spicasta Stijena.
10 In every on-site investigation, the ballistics expert is the only
11 one qualified to make determinations regarding sniping from
12 Spicasta Stijena.
13 What we were able to see, police officers from the criminal
14 investigations department and scenes of crime officers, was evidence on
15 site and clues, and we could just see with our own eyes that the shot
16 could only have come from Spicasta Stijena to hit people and children in
17 Sedrenik.
18 Q. So there were armed men only along that 50-metre stretch. What
19 about the rest of that whole area up to 180 degrees? Were there any
20 other armed men?
21 A. This place where Dervisa Selmanovic was standing was sheltered
22 from all other sides except for Spicasta Stijena. Her family, when they
23 were building that house, could never have imagined when they were
24 building the house that one day there would be a sniper on
25 Spicasta Stijena who would target the family. Her house was located in
Page 9618
1 such a way that she had to go outside into the yard to collect firewood
2 to make a fire, and it just so happened that she was hit at that moment,
3 and it's up to those humans -- or, rather, non-humans who were on
4 Spicasta Stijena firing at people, women and children. I believe that is
5 borderline abnormal behaviour.
6 Q. Let's stick to the facts. You know where the house was. You
7 know that it was sheltered from three sides of the world and it was -- it
8 was vulnerable only on the side of Spicasta Stijena.
9 A. An on-site investigation team went to the place, photographed the
10 location. They also photographed Spicasta Stijena, of which they had a
11 clear view.
12 Q. Did you state that Dervisa Selmanovic was a homemaker, and she
13 was, in fact, a cook in the BH Army?
14 A. When I talked to her, when I asked her about her occupation, she
15 said she was a housewife. I could not imagine that she would not be
16 speaking the truth. I took her at her word. She was in her home when
17 she was wounded. She was making a fire.
18 Q. Could you give us the names of the people, civilians, who were
19 killed in Sedrenik. As a police officer, member of on-site investigation
20 teams, give us those names.
21 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer, Mr. Djozo. Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Just before we go much further into this, I told
23 Your Honour I'd verify and, indeed, this is an incident that was never
24 charged in the indictment. So this is an unscheduled incident on which
25 the Prosecution has not led any evidence.
Page 9619
1 JUDGE KWON: That was the point of my question. It was never in
2 the indictment --
3 MS. EDGERTON: It was never in the indictment but I wasn't able
4 to give you an accurate answer without checking, Your Honour.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But let me remind everyone, with
6 all due respect, that in the examination-in-chief and in his statement,
7 this witness mentioned that Sedrenik was a civilian settlement and that
8 between 50 and 100 people were killed by sniping from Spicasta Stijena.
9 I'm now asking not only about Dervisa Selmanovic. I'm asking the witness
10 which methods he used to rule out all other possibilities and determine
11 that the firing came from Spicasta Stijena and to give us the names of
12 those 50 or I don't know how many civilians who actually got killed.
13 JUDGE KWON: I'm wondering where the witness gave evidence to the
14 effect that he decided the direction of the fire or the origin of the
15 fire himself.
16 What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. How did you, Mr. Djozo, determine that the fire only came from
19 Spicasta Stijena, not from any other place? Not only in the case of
20 Dervisa Selmanovic but in all the other cases.
21 A. I said that the only one who is qualified to make an official
22 determination as to the direction of fire is the ballistics expert. He
23 is an expert in these matters. All the rest of us from the criminal
24 investigations department and from the scenes of crime department who
25 were there could see that a shot hitting that place could only have come
Page 9620
1 from Spicasta Stijena.
2 Q. Do you know that the distance between Spicasta Stijena and the
3 place where Dervisa Selmanovic resided is more than 1.100 metres?
4 A. I don't know. And at that time, we did not have -- at least I
5 did not have any instruments to measure the distance. I'm not sure it's
6 more than 1.000 metres.
7 Q. Let's us then conclude. You are unable to give us the names of
8 those civilians who were killed in the Sedrenik settlement, or are you?
9 A. I think it is very ugly to use the names of victims in this way.
10 The lists exist. They are available. You can see exactly how many
11 people in total, how many women, how many elderly, how many children were
12 killed. But if you say there were 2.000 people killed in the sinking of
13 the Titanic and you wanted me to give their names, this would be
14 comparable to what you're actually asking me to do.
15 Q. Is the name of Tarik Zunic, from an incident in February,
16 familiar to you?
17 A. I know this last name Zunic somewhere from Sedrenik, but you
18 would have to give me more information.
19 Q. I'll tell you all the names of people who were wounded.
20 Tarik Zunic was wounded in 1995. Vahid Balta, 1995. Sanela Dedovic,
21 wounded. I don't know exactly where, but she testified here on
22 29 January 2007 in the Milosevic case, and Tarik Zunic on the 7th of
23 February, 2007.
24 Mr. Djozo, for 1.260 days, the Serbs were defending Barice and
25 Mrkovici, and they never attacked Grdonj or Sedrenik, and you couldn't
Page 9621
1 find ten civilians killed in all that time that -- whose names you could
2 give us.
3 A. In Sarajevo there were --
4 Q. No, Sedrenik, Sedrenik.
5 A. Including Sedrenik.
6 Q. Give us proof.
7 A. I'm not the one collecting proof here. Why don't you find proof
8 that it is just ten people, not over ten or over 100?
9 Q. Do you know, for instance, that towards the end of May 1995 and
10 early June, mid-June, and all the way up to mid-July, a major Muslim
11 offensive was underway, and it affected Sedrenik, including planned,
12 documented attacks aimed at Barice and Mrkovici?
13 A. I was in the crime investigations department of the police at the
14 time, and if there had been such planned actions, I wouldn't know about
15 them. I was not a high-ranking officer who would have been involved in
16 the making of such plans, so I can't tell you anything about it.
17 Q. But as a citizen of Sarajevo, you were aware that there was
18 shooting all over the place. You investigated some it have as a
19 policeman. Are you trying to tell us now that there was no offensive at
20 the time, that instead these shells were fired by the Serbs out of blue,
21 for no reason at all? Just tell us, was there an offensive or not?
22 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, this is not a cross-examination.
23 This is an argumentative dialogue. You're putting submissions to the
24 witness, disguising them as questions. It really isn't helping the
25 Tribunal to determine the effective issues in this case.
Page 9622
1 JUDGE KWON: We'll take a break now, after which you will have
2 three-quarters of an hour, Mr. Karadzic.
3 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would just like to
7 say that I'm ready to cross-examine the next witness for a shorter period
8 of time if we can have a little extra time with this witness.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Djozo, you testified that there were some improvised bombs
11 which were made from gas cylinders filled with explosives and placed on
12 car tyres and released down the sides of the Trebevic; is that correct?
13 A. Yes. I was at an investigation, not because of that, but because
14 a man was killed in a street in Sirokaca Street, because he had initiated
15 a trip mine, and we went to investigate. This is below Osmice. And
16 people who were living there took us around and showed us how there were
17 a number of improvised devices in one place.
18 I did hear about this earlier, that such things did happen, that
19 these devices were made, that oil drums were filled and that wheels were
20 attached to them. I wanted to see what this was about. I went up there,
21 and I could see gas cylinders made in exactly the same way. The only
22 thing is that you couldn't really get close to that part, because the
23 terrain was unsafe, and people said that there were minefields laid down
24 there.
25 Q. Thank you. Are you trying to say that you saw an unexploded gas
Page 9623
1 cylinder in a minefield below the Lukavica-Pale road; is that correct?
2 A. It wasn't me at an investigation but one of my colleagues was
3 there when, from Trebevic towards Katusevic [phoen], a part of the
4 Old Town, such a barrel was released. The Serbian Army did that. And
5 the barrel exploded near a house, causing a lot of material damage. As
6 far as I can remember, nobody was killed, but I know that people said
7 that the house which was struck by the barrel was completely destroyed,
8 and that's where I saw the barrels and these gas cylinders to which
9 wheels were attached. Wheels were welded on each side of these gas
10 cylinders and these oil drums, and you could tell by the tyres that these
11 were tyres from a military Deutz vehicle.
12 Q. Do you have a photograph of this device or object that you just
13 described for us?
14 A. I wrote an official note about it, and I sent it to my police
15 station. I explained what this was about. But as I said, you couldn't
16 go up there because of the minefields.
17 I did see a photograph of that here at the OTP. They showed it
18 to me. They wanted to show me the photograph. They said, "Is this what
19 that was?" And then I answered affirmatively.
20 Q. Now we're going to ask to find this photograph so that you can
21 show us what sort of an improvised device this is that requires so much
22 work. It needs an axle and then wheels need to be welded onto this part
23 on each side. It's a lot of work.
24 A. Yes. One wheel is on one side, and another wheel is on the other
25 side. This is not something that is very precise when it's released, but
Page 9624
1 it does have a considerable destructive power when it explodes in a
2 settlement, for example. Of course, there are photographs. One can see
3 the object and how much work it needs. I don't know how people -- to
4 what extent people were trained to make something like this.
5 Q. You saw an unexploded gas cylinder with wheels and another
6 unexploded oil barrel that had wheels attached to it. Did this perhaps
7 not call for a detailed investigation and photo documentation, and was
8 such an investigation every carried out?
9 A. No, I never did such an investigation, because I'm not qualified
10 for that. Probably somebody else did that. I don't know if they were in
11 the CSB or in the military unit, but I did see it.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D02408 now, please.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. And while we're waiting for this in the e-court, Mr. Djozo, can
15 you please tell us what kind of a terrain is required for this barrel to
16 be able to move in the desired direction?
17 A. You need a steep terrain, and you know that the Army of
18 Republika Srpska in that area was above the road. It was holding the
19 Osmice road, and these barrels were released from there, from that
20 height.
21 Q. Can you recognise the Osmice hostel on this photograph?
22 A. Yes, of course I can. This is a photograph from an area long
23 past. You can see the vegetation has grown back, the houses have been
24 repaired, and all of this greenery has covered over the clearing that was
25 there during the war.
Page 9625
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in on the upper
2 right-hand quadrant, please.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Are you saying that these trees that are 3 or 4 metres tall were
5 not there during the war and that they grew back after the war, and since
6 they were not there at the time, this device could roll down the slope
7 but now it would not be possible for it to roll down the slope?
8 A. Well, the trees were not so high, and you can see the bushes that
9 are a metre or so high. This photograph does not faithfully represent
10 what was there. You can see part of the gorge near Osmice, and that's
11 what I saw when I was there carrying out the investigation at the time.
12 There were houses in that area, and I think that you can see them in this
13 photograph.
14 Q. I'm asking you to circle the Osmice bed and breakfast and mark it
15 with the number 1.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can you activate the marker,
17 please, and can we again zoom in on this upper right-hand quadrant,
18 please.
19 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. All right. That is fine. It's not quite clear on
22 the photograph. Well, this the bed and breakfast Osmice.
23 JUDGE KWON: For your information, Mr. Karadzic, having heard
24 your cross-examination so far, for which you have spent more than two
25 hours, the Chamber is not minded to give you any further extension -- any
Page 9626
1 extension to the time for your cross-examination of this witness. So try
2 to conclude in the given time.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That would be in half an hour; is
4 that right?
5 JUDGE KWON: A bit more than half an hour.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Djozo, are you able to indicate where the separation line is
9 here, indicating what is under the control of the B and H Army and what
10 is under the control of the VRS?
11 A. What I know is that the road that I can indicate here with a
12 dotted line -- [In English] That I put -- [Interpretation] We will mark
13 the road with a number 2. That is the road that leads from Vraca to
14 Trebevic. And that road could only be used by the Army of
15 Republika Srpska and probably by civilians from Lukavica. This was the
16 Lukavica-Pale road.
17 I know that we never managed -- I could never manage to get
18 there. We could move only in the settlements below Osmice. The
19 Sirokaca, Cicin Han, Vasin Han, and Bogusevac settlements. Thus, this is
20 where we came out for investigations, because this is where shells were
21 landing. People were getting killed. There were investigations being
22 conducted in these places.
23 Q. Can you please now mark where you saw this device which the
24 Serbian Army allegedly produced and filled with explosives?
25 A. This is in the part where the road is cut, close to the number 2.
Page 9627
1 There is a large slope here which I will indicate like this, and you can
2 see the settlement down below. You can see the houses. I will put a
3 number 3 there.
4 I cannot remember exactly which house it was where I was, but I
5 went there, and I could see where these four arrows are that I will mark
6 with the number 4, that is the place where I could see these gas
7 cylinders with wheels attached and a number of barrels that probably had
8 oil or petrol in them that also had wheels attached.
9 Q. Thank you. And you were told that the Serbian soldiers pushed
10 that down the hill and that it did not explode?
11 A. The people who lived there, who probably live there today, said
12 that when you push that from the top down the hill, when the soldiers
13 pushed that down the hill it made a very loud noise, breaking the
14 branches and the small trees on its way down, that they could hear when
15 this happened and that mostly then they would escape from there, because
16 they were expecting it to explode. I don't know why it didn't explode.
17 Probably because the people who made the device were not doing a good
18 job. I don't know. But in any case, we did have a number of these
19 things that did explode and that inflicted a lot of material damage. I
20 don't know why the barrels didn't explode in that particular case. These
21 gas cylinders for which it was established later that they were full of
22 explosives, we don't know why they didn't explode.
23 Q. Thank you. This forest that you marked, it didn't exist then,
24 but in the meantime it has grown.
25 A. Well, it's not a forest or a wood. These are just small shrubs,
Page 9628
1 small greenery. I know after the war how high this growth is, how it was
2 cut, what it was like before, because you can see the Sirokaca cemetery
3 here. It was all located in a wood which had been completely cut down
4 during the war, but now, 17 years later, it looks completely different.
5 Q. Mr. Djozo, don't you see that these trees below the arrows are
6 higher than these buildings? And I am saying once again you were
7 deceived, Mr. Djozo. Why would a sophisticated army that is accused here
8 of being very capable would make these devices using old barrels? What
9 would be the purpose of that? Who would believe you? Who would believe
10 something like that, Mr. Djozo? Are you able to say that there is a
11 possibility that these people deceived you, and if not, are you able to
12 direct us to some kind of evidence? Or perhaps we can ask the
13 Trial Chamber that we get this photograph of this device so that the
14 witness can confirm that that is really that device.
15 Were you deceived, Mr. Djozo?
16 A. I cannot say that anybody deceived me if I saw that with my very
17 own eyes and put down in an official note exactly what I saw.
18 Q. A few gas cylinders and a few barrels that didn't explode?
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you're not arguing with the witness at
20 this moment. You are cross-examining the witness. Just -- just ask one
21 question at a time.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. May I ask that the
23 photograph that this witness looked at and was shown by the OTP, can we
24 look at that photograph, please.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 9629
1 Q. And then in the meantime can you please date and initial this
2 photograph.
3 I am asserting in the form of a question that all of this
4 fabricated and none of it is true and that you were deceived. I cannot
5 say that you are deceiving us here, but you were deceived there if they
6 told you that, because that operation is quite impossible.
7 JUDGE KWON: Another unnecessary and unhelpful statement on your
8 part, Mr. Karadzic.
9 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
10 MS. EDGERTON: The photograph that Dr. Karadzic has requested is
11 65 ter number 23017, and it was listed in our original notification for
12 this witness on 22 October 2010.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
14 This photo marked by the witness will be admitted as Defence
15 exhibit.
16 THE REGISTRAR: With the number D914, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D2585, please.
19 That is that photograph. And then can we look at page 10 in that
20 document. Page 10 in this document, please.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Did you confirm this photograph, Mr. Djozo?
23 A. No, it's not that photograph.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get some help so that we can
25 see what was identified as this alleged device.
Page 9630
1 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton identified it as 65 ter number 23017.
2 We do not have it in the ...
3 MS. EDGERTON: It's being released immediately.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. It's there.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Is this the photograph for which you stated showed an improvised
7 device from Trebevic?
8 A. Yes. This kind of device I did see in that area which I marked
9 in the previous photograph. I marked the place where these barrels were,
10 barrels attached to wheels as is shown here. And I saw similar devices
11 in that area just below Osmice. The only difference is that they were
12 not barrels but gas cylinders.
13 Q. And here are the wheels attached to this barrel, or are they just
14 arranged next to one another?
15 A. The person who photographed, the technician, and I can see the
16 signature of the person who is a professional explosives expert, I could
17 see that he photographed the barrel and the wheels, and you can see that
18 there is a distance, a space between the wheels. Probably there is a
19 barrel placed between them.
20 JUDGE KWON: Is this photo an identical one which is shown on the
21 next page?
22 Can you show the witness the next page. The lower part.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. In my opinion, it's the -- the photograph is identical. What is
25 it here that you see that is unusual, except that you see a barrel and
Page 9631
1 wheels arranged next to each other, taken off from the vehicle in the
2 above photograph.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now scroll down so that we
4 can look at the other photograph.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. MR. Djozo, do you see that this is a depot of old broken-down
7 cars and that the vehicles here are without wheels?
8 A. What I see here are armoured personnel carriers. On the
9 right-hand side I also see a military vehicle. It's not clear to me on
10 the picture. I'm not able to see the barrels that are shown below. I
11 don't know if the photograph shows the same location. The person who
12 made these photographs, who did this photo documentation, is the only
13 person who can know where the photographs were taken. It's not the same
14 place as the place where I am saying I saw these barrels and gas
15 cylinders.
16 Q. This was photographed in the Ilijas ironworks. Mr. Djozo, are
17 you saying that wheels are attached to these wheels, and do the barrels
18 contain explosives, and are you saying that there was explosive placed in
19 the gas cylinders and in the barrels that you saw below Trebevic? Are
20 you saying that this is so? Do you have evidence to prove that this is
21 so, or are we just supposed to take your word for it?
22 A. The photographs were made by the person who signed the
23 photographs, and he probably stated that there were explosives inside.
24 He's the only one who can say that this was so. I am saying that what I
25 saw up there, and I put that in my report which I signed, this is a
Page 9632
1 person -- this other person is the person who looked to see what was in
2 the barrels, so he knows. I know that there were stories circulating
3 among people in the police that the barrels contained explosives, and
4 that in one case in the Sirokaca sector, the barrel did get through, that
5 it did hit a house, that it caused a lot of damage. I don't know if
6 there were any dead as a consequence. I know that they said that the
7 explosion was quite horrendous and that it had a very negative effect on
8 the people who were very afraid of that.
9 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton, both pages, on the top right corner,
10 appear -- say page 1, and the ERN number or the eight-digit number don't
11 seem to be contiguous. Could you help us with -- as to the origin of
12 this photo and how come it is so?
13 MS. EDGERTON: If you could just pull back for a second so I
14 could see the first page. I have an idea where the photo comes from --
15 or the photos come from, and I suspect they were drawn from a larger
16 criminal investigation file prepared by the Bosnian police forces
17 following the reintegration. They may have been drawn from two files.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, but the first page also says in English
19 "Page 1."
20 MS. EDGERTON: Unfortunately at this moment I can't assist you on
21 that, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE KWON: If you can assist us at a later stage.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, please continue your
25 cross-examination.
Page 9633
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Djozo, can we then conclude that other than you hearing
4 stories and other than seeing some gas cylinders and barrels whose
5 contents you did not check, you don't have any proof about this explosion
6 or about the existence of devices of this kind; is that correct?
7 A. If I have this photograph which shows what I described as seeing
8 and wrote an official note about it, and if the Ministry of the Interior
9 began an investigation and investigated the claim that there was
10 explosives in the barrels, then those findings would indicate that really
11 there was explosives in the barrels and that they were used in order to
12 destroy both people and settlements, buildings, houses, in the area of
13 the Stari Grad municipality, particularly in Sirokaca.
14 Q. All right. Thank you. We're going to wait for those
15 investigations. Thank you.
16 JUDGE KWON: I'm intervening too much, but, Ms. Edgerton, it is
17 only now that I realise that Ekrem Suljevic gave testimony here, but was
18 this not put to him?
19 MS. EDGERTON: Not to my knowledge, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There wasn't enough time to
22 cross-examine Ekrem Suljevic, but these photographs were not provided
23 with that witness. They were provided with another witness, Miokovic or
24 somebody else. So there were there was no opportunity to put questions
25 about this to Suljevic. But in any case, the Defence asserts that this
Page 9634
1 is just an old tyres depot and that this is not any kind of explosive
2 device. This came with Bogdan Vidovic, with that witness.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, please refrain from making statements.
4 You are now cross-examining.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
7 MS. EDGERTON: If I may. If I can correct myself, Your Honour.
8 These -- this evidence was raised with Mr. Suljevic, and it appears in
9 the transcript at pages 6174 to 6175.
10 JUDGE KWON: By the Defence or by the Prosecution? You have a
11 crib paper from Mr. Reid.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Indicating the disclosure date of these
13 photographs as 10 July 2009 for Mr. Suljevic. And this was raised with
14 Mr. Suljevic by Dr. Karadzic.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Djozo, let's move on to Markale II. You are one of the
18 people who assisted the casualties outside Markale II. Did you
19 participate in giving first aid to the victims?
20 A. I can't answer with a yes or no. I was not there when the
21 explosion happened. I was having breakfast in the cafeteria of the
22 police building. We all heard the explosion, and when we got there, we
23 asked our -- when we got back to the office, we asked our shift leader
24 what it was about. He said it was a terrible explosion. A shell
25 exploded outside the shopping centre. Chaos is reigning there. We tried
Page 9635
1 to pass through Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street to get to the shopping
2 centre. However, the chaos was too great. Cars were honking, people
3 were running to and fro, crying. We couldn't get through. We returned,
4 a group of us policemen and inspectors, because we were expecting a
5 summons to donate blood, and that's the only assistance I was able to
6 give in this first stage.
7 Later on, I did not participate in the on-site investigation. I
8 did subsequently take statements from one or two people who were wounded
9 outside the shopping centre, but since that particular neighbourhood is
10 covered by police station Centar, the on-site investigation was carried
11 out by the CSB staff.
12 Q. Please, I don't have much time. I'll ask you several simple
13 questions.
14 Did you go to Markale II at all at the time of the evacuation of
15 the casualties?
16 A. I was not there outside the shopping centre where the explosion
17 occurred.
18 Q. But your statement says you heard the explosion. How many
19 explosions did you hear?
20 A. I heard one horrendous explosion. I knew because of the
21 detonation and the way the -- it sounded that the shell fell on a hard
22 surface. Somebody who hasn't heard the explosion of a shell cannot
23 really understand.
24 Q. Please tell me, what is your connection with Markale II? At what
25 point and in what capacity did you get involved, apart from seeing media
Page 9636
1 reports on television? What did you personally see, and what is your
2 involvement with Markale II?
3 A. I said a moment ago that we had set off from the station to try
4 to help. We did not get through, so we returned to the police station
5 because it was too crowded. There were too many cars, people running
6 away in one direction, other people running in the opposite direction to
7 see if they can help someone.
8 Several days passed from that day until the time when I took a
9 few statements from some people who were hurt in the incident. I think I
10 took a statement from a lady who was working in a shop across the street
11 who was wounded. I can't remember her name, I'm sorry.
12 Q. Did your police station secure the scene, and which of your
13 police officers did it?
14 A. The shell fell in the border area between the territories of two
15 police stations, ours and the police station Centar. So it was mostly
16 handled by the police station Centar. Maybe a few officers from
17 Stari Grad joined them, but from what I know, none of my colleagues from
18 the department was immediately involved in the on-site investigation or
19 securing the scene. I was certainly not. I don't think any of my work
20 colleagues were.
21 Q. When you got to the scene, did the police from Centar -- had the
22 police from Centar already arrived, and did you see any cameramen from
23 Television Sarajevo?
24 A. I did not even get there. I started to go and then returned.
25 Q. So you cannot really testify about Markale II.
Page 9637
1 A. I don't think it's my decision. I can give evidence about the
2 things I've seen.
3 Q. And that's what you've told us today.
4 A. Well, it depends on your question. I looked at the footage, and
5 I think I gave a statement saying what we heard from the SRNA agency,
6 namely, that we had shelled ourselves.
7 Q. Did you investigate an incident on the flea market on the
8 22nd December 1994?
9 A. I don't have the report, but I remember the incident. I was a
10 member of that team. There were many people on the scene, the
11 investigating judge and all the other members of the team. I went there
12 to help out my colleague who was on duty that day.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We don't have to call that
14 document. It was probably admitted through another witness. Can we get
15 1D2768 so you can mark these locations.
16 Can we zoom in on the right-hand half.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Can you now mark, Mr. Djozo, the place where your station is
19 located and the place of the incident.
20 A. I see Lugavina Street, and I see the letter P for "Parking lot."
21 Q. Take the pen and please help us.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Just to note that the very first exhibit was
24 Mr. Djozo marking the location of his police station on a map.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, but -- but we need to find that one to
Page 9638
1 familiarise ourselves in this map. So let us continue.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Put number 1 there.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Could you mark the site of the incident at the flea market.
6 A. I don't know the name of that street. Where is it? Is it near
7 Oprkanj? That's the area where the flea market was.
8 Q. That's your area.
9 A. The streets have been renamed, and it's very hard to do that.
10 The flea market continues into this area. It begins at the parking lot
11 in Bravadziluk upwards, and it's in this street that people organise the
12 flea market. It is called flea market, because people sold anything that
13 could sell, thread, needles, cigarettes.
14 Q. Put the date and your initials. Number 2 is the flea market, a
15 site of an incident.
16 A. [Marks]
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this be received?
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D915, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. You have five minutes, Mr. Karadzic.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Do you remember at what time this happened, the incident and the
23 investigation?
24 A. I can't recall. It was too long ago, 18 years ago.
25 Q. How soon after the incident did you come to the scene?
Page 9639
1 A. I can't remember that either, but we would normally come out to
2 the scene within 30 minutes, an hour, two hours after the incident. It
3 all depended on the shelling. Sometimes we couldn't go at all because of
4 the shelling.
5 Q. What did you find at the scene? Was it at least two or three
6 hours before you were able to come?
7 A. As far as I remember, when we got there we did not find any
8 wounded people there anymore. I know that I didn't see any wounded when
9 I arrived. I know that we looked for fragments of the shell. I know
10 that it turned out it was probably not a mortar, because the shrapnel
11 seemed to belong to another weapon, and I seem to remember that people
12 were saying it was some kind of mountain gun.
13 Q. You didn't see any casualties, but two people are said to have
14 been killed.
15 A. Speaking of the dead, I cannot say off-the-cuff, but if the
16 record says and the statements from the hospital and from the witnesses
17 say so, then it is so, because usually after a shell explodes, the people
18 who are nearby try to take the wounded to the hospital as soon as
19 possible to try to save them. And if somebody was killed on the spot, if
20 it says so in the report, it must be so.
21 Q. So you don't know. Do you know who evacuated these alleged
22 wounded and the alleged dead? Is it the case that it was not only the
23 police but also members of the BH Army who came to their assistance?
24 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Karadzic mentioned the names of some
25 witnesses who made that claim. The interpreter didn't hear.
Page 9640
1 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. The interpreters couldn't catch some
2 of the names you referred to.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I mentioned the name of
4 Salih Djedovic. It's a witness whose statement I believe is in evidence,
5 and he stated that members of the police and members of the BH Army came
6 to the rescue.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. And you arrived together with the investigating team, and you
9 found no bodies at all, none wounded or dead. You confirmed that today.
10 Was there a single investigation where you found the wounded and
11 the dead still on site?
12 A. That is an impossibility, because when something like that
13 happens, that is to say, in these cases after shellings where people were
14 killed and wounded, the police station would be informed. And since I
15 worked in my department, I was not one of the field operatives waiting
16 for a shell to fall to help the casualties. I was working in my office,
17 and I would be informed by the shift leader from the uniformed police who
18 would tell me about the incident, and then we would begin to form an
19 investigation team. That can take a while, as I said before. It all
20 depends on whether the investigating judge is able to come immediately.
21 If they are not too busy with other investigations in other locations, it
22 can take them 15 minutes, 30 minutes, an hour.
23 However, if the shelling is too strong, if the investigation team
24 is already out there investigating in the field, then it can take longer.
25 It never happened that I just happened to be somewhere where something
Page 9641
1 happened and was able to give assistance to the casualties. People who
2 were wounded were immediately transported by survivors to the hospital.
3 Q. Do you have any proof that 10.000 civilians were killed in
4 Sarajevo and 1.300 children, or are you just repeating something you
5 heard from others?
6 A. These things are very serious, and we should not joke about this
7 or mock such things.
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, your last question.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. In which major incident -- incidents did these 10.000 civilians
11 get killed? Where did these incidents happen?
12 A. The entire territory of the city of Sarajevo, from the very
13 beginning, from 1992 until 1995, was shelled every day, especially the
14 area of Stari Grad, the Old Town.
15 I think it's obvious from all the films and interviews with
16 people. The town hall burnt down immediately, and houses in Stari Grad.
17 People were getting killed on every corner. You were not safe even in an
18 air shelter, because the VRS had such an arsenal.
19 Q. Mr. Djozo, this is the last question I'm allowed. I'm asking you
20 as a witness, as an investigator and a police officer, to enumerate major
21 incidents in which during 1260 days of war, 10.000 civilians and
22 1.300 children got killed. What are these incidents, and where are we to
23 find proof?
24 A. The proof is available to everyone, especially to this
25 Honourable Court and the Prosecution, so there's no need for me to
Page 9642
1 enumerate, but from the town hall to Stup, Ilidza, Novi Grad, Dobrinja,
2 Sirokaca, Sedrenik, Kosevo, there is not a single spot, not a single
3 street where people didn't die, in streetcars, in their own cars, waiting
4 for water near the Sarajevo brewery. There is not a single street, not a
5 house, not a building where somebody did not get killed.
6 Q. Let's turn it this way: There are two major incidents, Markale I
7 and Markale II. Is there a third major incident?
8 A. Of course. There is the marketplace. There is the incident
9 where children got killed near the secondary school. There is
10 Alipasino Polje. There are people in Dobrinja who got killed, if I
11 remember well, during a cease-fire. People were playing ball and then
12 somebody from Republika Srpska got bored, I suppose, and threw bombs on
13 them.
14 JUDGE KWON: I think that's sufficient.
15 Ms. Edgerton.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Thank you.
17 Re-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
18 Q. Mr. Djozo, earlier on today in the transcript Dr. Karadzic asked
19 you the following. He said:
20 "You are unable to give us the names of those who were killed in
21 the Sedrenik settlement, or are you?"
22 And your response was:
23 "The lists exist. They are available. You can see exactly how
24 many people in total, how many women, how many elderly, and how many
25 children were killed."
Page 9643
1 Do you remember that?
2 A. Yes, I recall that.
3 Q. Thank you. I'd like to show you now a document that I have,
4 because it's a large document, available beside me in hard copy.
5 MS. EDGERTON: And for the record, it's 65 ter number 23068, and
6 I could ask my colleague to deliver this copy to the witness. It might
7 be easier for him. While we can view e-court.
8 Q. Now, Mr. Djozo --
9 JUDGE KWON: Does the Defence want to look at the document before
10 the witness?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it's in e-court, then there's no
12 need.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
14 Q. Mr. Djozo, what you have in front of you on the title page reads
15 "Stari Grad Public Security Station, Sarajevo, war diary, April 1992,"
16 and the author is Enes Bezdrob. Is that man who you identified earlier
17 today as being the chief of station?
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat.
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Witness, we didn't hear the interpretation.
20 Could you please repeat your answer.
21 A. Yes, at that time he was chief of police station Stari Grad,
22 Enes Bezdrob.
23 MS. EDGERTON:
24 Q. Thank you. Now, the first question is: Have you ever seen this
25 document before?
Page 9644
1 A. No, I didn't see.
2 Q. Can you have a look at this document and tell us whether this is
3 one of those lists that you were referring to.
4 A. I knew that Stari Grad police station was keeping records of the
5 wounded and killed in shellings, where incidents happened, how they
6 happened. Those records were kept, and there was a police officer in
7 charge of keeping records of reported explosions, including the names and
8 numbers of people, of casualties.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see in e-court the subject
10 of this discussion? What page is it?
11 JUDGE KWON: We'll come to that.
12 MS. EDGERTON:
13 Q. Now, Mr. Djozo, a little bit after Dr. Karadzic asked you that
14 question in your testimony, he asked you the following:
15 "For 1.260 days," he said, "the Serbs were defending Barice and
16 Mrkovici and they never attacked Grdonj or Sedrenik, and you can't find
17 10 civilians killed in all that time whose names you could give us,
18 including Sedrenik." Do you remember that?
19 A. Yes, I remember those words.
20 Q. Could I take you now to page 5 of the B/C/S version of the
21 document you have in front of you, English page 3. Under the heading
22 "Sedrenik," at the bottom of the page, do you see an entry dated
23 12 December 1992?
24 A. [No interpretation]
25 Q. And it notes two persons wounded in a shelling. I think that's a
Page 9645
1 difficult photocopy to read in your language, Mr. Djozo. Perhaps we can
2 move over one page, page 7 of the document you have in front of you,
3 English page 4.
4 Under the heading "Sedrenik," dated 13/14 December 1992, do you
5 see a report of two people being wounded in a shelling?
6 A. Zumra Burek and Fuad Agic are mentioned here.
7 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Could you now -- could I invite you to go
8 to page 13 of the document you have in front of you, and that's English
9 page 5, an entry under the heading "Sedrenik," dated 18 December 1992.
10 Do you see there a record of people killed and wounded as a result of
11 shelling?
12 A. Yes. I see Rifet, Zoran, Bakir, Dino, people killed in Sedrenik.
13 Q. Could we go over to page 15 of the B/C/S version, and English
14 page 6.
15 At the very top of the page you see the heading "Sedrenik,"
16 listing a number of people killed and wounded as a result of shelling.
17 Could you give us their names?
18 A. Nedzib Herceglija, Salih Kadric, Zajko Senderovic, Suljo Zimic,
19 Amel Vukas, Esad Pleh, Muhamed Rizvo. This whole page is on Sedrenik.
20 Q. And in the space of time between 26 and 27 December 1992 and
21 31 December 1992, there's more than ten people killed and injured, aren't
22 there?
23 A. Yes, there are many more than the names that I read. Beginning
24 from Hasanovic, Potogija, Aisa, Ramiz, Meho, Vezira, all these people are
25 recorded as being wounded or killed in the Sedrenik area.
Page 9646
1 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, I'd like to have this list from the
2 Stari Grad police station of people killed and wounded in Sedrenik as the
3 next Prosecution exhibit, please.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that will be admitted.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1991, Your Honours.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we just have the opportunity to
7 put one question?
8 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any observation, Ms. Edgerton?
9 MS. EDGERTON: No, but perhaps I could finish first, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. The only remaining matter I wanted to
12 raise with you, Your Honours, is P1989, during this witness's
13 examination-in-chief, was actually not saved, because you remember we've
14 been having some computer issues over the course of the past couple days.
15 My colleagues have made an effort to resurrect it with a screen shot.
16 Unfortunately, the screen shot I find a bit blurry, Your Honours, and I
17 wonder if we can ask the witness to re-mark P1989, and you'll remember
18 that's the exhibit where he moved item number 3 from one location to the
19 other, just for the sake of us all being able to see the exhibits.
20 JUDGE KWON: Very well. No problem.
21 MS. EDGERTON: And --
22 JUDGE KWON: I take it this is the image after he deleted
23 number 3.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. And actually, what I would prefer to do is
25 call up the earlier exhibit he had marked on and simply have him amend
Page 9647
1 that accordingly, and I --
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, which is 1982.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Correct. Thank you, Your Honours.
4 Q. Now, Mr. Djozo, I hope you were able to understand that
5 discussion. You'll remember that on this map earlier today you indicated
6 that you had located item number 3 in error and you wanted to move it to
7 a more accurate location, and unfortunately, we don't have a proper
8 record of that move, and -- I'm sorry. We have another --
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably because the picture is
11 quite small.
12 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Why we don't upload 1989, page 2.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Perfect. Thank you, and thank you to my
14 colleague.
15 JUDGE KWON: So there appears number 3 as originally marked by
16 the witness. So we can correct it with a black pen at this time.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Perfect. Thank you.
18 JUDGE KWON: So do you remember marking this map, Mr. Djozo?
19 Just wait. Just wait till our Usher assists you.
20 So you corrected number 3 again. So we lost that image, so we
21 need your marking again. Could you kindly mark correct place for
22 number 3 with black pen this time.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The third shell landed and exploded
24 on the Konzum building, which was in the Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street.
25 That street is also -- has a crossroads that leads to Petrarkina Street.
Page 9648
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll give a separate number for that,
2 or 1982 -- 1989A.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This will be received as
4 P1989A.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Nothing further, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes. One question from you, Mr. Karadzic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Djozo, your station, did it establish beyond
10 a reasonable doubt that the victims from the lists were civilians who
11 were targeted deliberately and that this did not happen during battle?
12 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour --
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the answer by the
14 witness.
15 MS. EDGERTON: With respect, that does not arise from my
16 re-direct.
17 JUDGE KWON: No, and it is not for the witness, whether it's
18 beyond a reasonable doubt or not. I think that concludes your evidence,
19 Mr. Djozo.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just say one word.
21 Madam Edgerton initiated this in response to my allegation that civilians
22 were not killed. We're not talking about whether soldiers were killed or
23 not. We're talking about civilians being killed and whether that was
24 established by an investigation, and there are only a couple of examples
25 of that. Of course people were getting killed. There was fighting up
Page 9649
1 there. But my question is: Were civilians deliberately shot at?
2 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I will confer with my colleagues.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Djozo, can you help us with this, whether you
5 know whether or not those listed in that report we've seen are civilians?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I can do is read a name,
7 Mujhodzic, Haris, 12 years old. I don't know if there is an army
8 anywhere that would fire at, shoot and kill 12-year-old children. This
9 is the first page. This happened in Bistrik.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. I'm sorry, Bistrik is on the other side of Sedrenik. We're
12 talking about Sedrenik.
13 A. The same applies to Sedrenik. All you need to do is go through
14 the pages. I even saw in one place where somebody was killed and they
15 were born in 1921. These are elderly people. I don't know if they are
16 ready to serve in the military. I don't know why they were in the way.
17 Probably if I leaf through some more pages I would find many children. I
18 think Raho Podrug was also an elderly person. I attended that
19 investigation. He was working in a meadow, as far as I can remember, and
20 he was killed.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Djozo. That really concludes your
22 evidence, unless other members of the Bench have a question for you.
23 It's now concluded. On behalf of the Chamber and the Tribunal, I
24 wish to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it. Now you are
25 free to go.
Page 9650
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 JUDGE KWON: Who is the next Witness, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the next witness is Mr. Svraka.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And perhaps we can make a five-minutes break
7 so that Ms. Edgerton and I can switch, in particular, Mr. Svraka is also
8 seriously handicapped and will need a few minutes to get here.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We will have a five minutes' break.
10 We'll try to resume at quarter past.
11 --- Break taken at 2.11 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 2.24 p.m.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 WITNESS: ISMET SVRAKA
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, Mr. Svraka.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
18 JUDGE KWON: If you could take the solemn declaration, please.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Svraka.
22 Sorry for the delay. There were other matters waiting for the
23 Chamber. We have only five minutes, but I wonder whether we can go till
24 2.40 so that we can have 15 minutes for today, but -- who is giving
25 signals? We will have 15 minutes for today. I appreciate the indulgence
Page 9651
1 of the interpreters and the court reporters. Thank you.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Good afternoon, Your Honours.
4 Examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
5 Q. And good afternoon, Mr. Svraka.
6 A. Good afternoon.
7 Q. Please state your full name.
8 A. Ismet Svraka.
9 Q. Mr. Svraka, you provided a statement to the Office of the
10 Prosecutor on the 5th of November, 2008; is that correct?
11 A. Probably, yes. I mean, if my signature is there on the
12 statement, then --
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we please have exhibit 65 ter 90144
14 displayed on the screen. Just the first page, please. And as the
15 document is coming up, it is a statement of the 5th of November, 2008.
16 Q. Mr. Svraka, it is in English, but if you look at the bottom, is
17 that your signature?
18 A. Yes, this is my signature.
19 Q. Have you -- has this statement here, has it been read to you in
20 your language when you came to The Hague?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And while you were going through this statement, did you want to
23 make a clarification in relation to another statement that is mentioned?
24 A. Could you please read it to me now so that I know what is written
25 there. I don't see it in Bosnian here.
Page 9652
1 Q. Yes. Can we please have the next page, and there is paragraph 2
2 that I will read to you. And if you look at paragraph 2, it's of course
3 in English, but I will read it to you in -- and it will be translated.
4 "While I was in hospital in September 1995, I provided a brief
5 statement to the Bosnian investigators about the shelling of
6 Markale Market on the 28th of August, 1995. Today I have been shown a
7 copy of that statement which now bears the identifying number 03320006.
8 I recognise my signature on the copy of that statement."
9 In relation to this remark, Mr. Svraka, do you have a clear
10 recollection of having given a statement to police officers in -- in
11 Bosnia? Mr. Svraka. Mr. Svraka, could you just leave alone this for a
12 minute and answer my question.
13 A. I don't remember about the policemen. You're asking about
14 policemen. This was on the 5th of September. It was some nine to ten
15 days after I was wounded. Some people came to the hospital. Everybody
16 was in white coats. I don't know if they were journalists or doctors. I
17 don't remember. There is a statement there that I did give, but I didn't
18 sign it. It's not my signature. As for the other statement that I
19 provided in 2008, I think in Nedzarici, I gave it to one of your
20 officials who called me, it's a very different statement. At the time,
21 in September, I was in the hospital. I was taken to three hospitals in a
22 period of ten days until I came to the orthopaedic clinic, and I was
23 under the influence of medicines. I don't know. Perhaps something
24 changed there.
25 Q. Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Svraka. That's -- and you had
Page 9653
1 an opportunity to see that statement also when you were here that --
2 that --
3 A. [No interpretation]
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It was -- Your Honour, this document will
5 not become an exhibit, this earlier statement, but of course it is
6 available to -- to everyone here.
7 Q. And with this small correction in relation to that earlier
8 statement from 1995, can you affirm that the statement that you gave in
9 2008 to the investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor is accurate and
10 reflects the information that you provided?
11 A. From 1998 I completely stand by this statement. I don't recall
12 the first statement. I don't remember. I didn't sign it, definitely.
13 There are some changes. Instead of one colleague, I found two colleagues
14 at the market.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all extra
16 microphones be switched off.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
18 Q. Mr. Svraka, we are actually not concerned with the earlier
19 statement from 1995. We are only concerned about the 2008 statement.
20 So -- and, Mr. Svraka, would you provide the same answers to the Court if
21 you were questioned on the same matters here today? The same as 2008.
22 A. Yes, I would.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With this clarification, Your Honour, I
24 would like to tender 65 ter number 90144 for admission under Rule 92 ter.
25 JUDGE KWON: That will be admitted.
Page 9654
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1992, Your Honours.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the Court's permission, I would now
3 read a brief summary of Mr. Svraka's evidence as admitted.
4 During the relevant time, Mr. Svraka lived in Sarajevo and was a
5 bricklayer by profession. He was not a soldier. He performed work
6 obligations, including repair works on buildings and digging of trenches.
7 In the morning of the 28th of August, 1995, Mr. Svraka went into
8 the city centre to send off a letter. He used back roads in order to
9 stay out of sight of snipers. In the centre he met his friends and
10 colleagues Mr. Ramo Herceglija and Mr. Ibrahim Hajvaz, and he talked with
11 them in the street in front of the Markale Market.
12 Mr. Svraka saw a lot of people in the street and in the market.
13 There were no military activities in that area, nor any military
14 installations or posts.
15 Mr. Svraka heard a tremendous blast and fell down. He realised
16 that he could not feel his legs any more. Somebody took him into a car
17 through the trunk, and then he was driven to the Kosevo Hospital. There
18 he received several surgeries, both on the 28th August and subsequently.
19 He initially stayed in the hospital for 45 days but was admitted also in
20 1996 for subsequent treatment. As a result of the explosion, he lost a
21 leg, had his other leg or foot injured and received stomach injuries.
22 Mr. Svraka's two friends Mr. Herceglija and Mr. Hajvaz were
23 killed through the explosion.
24 Your Honours, this concludes the summary. I will have now just a
25 very few questions clarifying a few points.
Page 9655
1 Q. Mr. Svraka, in your statement you described your injuries and how
2 you were treated in the Kosevo Hospital.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And to go into a few more details, I would
4 ask that Exhibit 65 ter 21256 be brought up onto the screen, and, please,
5 just the first page in both languages, please? We would need both, the
6 English -- the English of the medical ...
7 JUDGE KWON: I don't think there's any English translation
8 uploaded.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Mr. Reid will do that immediately.
10 Q. But if you look at the first page, it is medical documentation,
11 Mr. Svraka. Did you provide this medical documentation to the
12 investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor in 2008?
13 A. Yes, I did. Yes.
14 Q. And it says here in the document, it says "University State
15 Hospital." Is that the same hospital as the Kosevo Hospital or is it a
16 different hospital?
17 A. It is the Kosevo Hospital.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we now please have page 2 in the B/C/S.
19 And if we look at the middle, middle part. Unfortunately we don't have
20 the English now.
21 Q. But if you look at this, Mr. Svraka, there is a reference to your
22 injuries, referring to the upper left leg had to be amputated, that your
23 right foot was injured, and that you received a stomach wound.
24 Is that what you suffered from the shelling?
25 A. Yes.
Page 9656
1 Q. And if we go a bit -- a bit down that document, if you go to the
2 bottom part, there's -- from the documents that you provided, it is
3 obvious that you were treated in 1995 and 1996. Why were you admitted
4 again in 1996? Why was that necessary?
5 A. When I was first admitted to hospital after wounding, what was
6 left of my leg was amputated, including the left leg. I also had an
7 abdominal injury, and I had to undergo two surgeries for that. I also
8 had an injury on my right foot, so I had to have two of my toes
9 amputated. In fact, I could not step on that foot at all.
10 Forty-five days later and after I was discharged to recover at
11 home, I was sent to reconstructive surgery where some ligaments had to be
12 operated on, and I spent some two years in treatment. After I was
13 treated at the Fojnica spa, Dr. Milasevic was the treating doctor.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 A. He referred me to the military hospital. Well, originally it was
16 called a military hospital, then it was renamed to state hospital and now
17 it has third name. In any case, I underwent surgery there too for a
18 ligament on my right leg. I spent some 25 days in hospital then, and I
19 was operated on by Dr. Fuad, I think, Fazlagic. And when I came back a
20 month later to be examined again, that was the first time that I was
21 actually able to step on my leg, and I was holding on to crutches with
22 one arm, and I put another arm around the doctor's shoulders, he was
23 helping me stand, and that was the first time that I was able to actually
24 step on my right foot. This was at the Marin Dvor hospital.
25 Q. Mr. Svraka --
Page 9657
1 A. That is why I had to undergo surgery.
2 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Svraka. Mr. Svraka, if you also look at
3 the last bit on this document, there is a reference to your disability
4 that was at that time considered to be 90 per cent. Did that change?
5 A. Well, in one of those papers you can see that my left leg is
6 considered -- I am considered to be disabled by 90 per cent -- or at the
7 rate of 70 per cent, the right leg 30 per cent, and my overall disability
8 is rated at 100 per cent, and I've shown those papers and presented them
9 to the Tribunal.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Your Honour, the witness has indeed
11 these kind of papers, but I wouldn't think that Mr. Karadzic would
12 dispute that he's 100 per cent disabled so that I do not need to provide
13 this. It was given to the Defence, but I don't think we need to tender
14 it here.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, but would you like to tender these medical
16 documents.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I would like to tender these medical
18 documents.
19 JUDGE KWON: We can admit it. We'll admit it.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1993, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE KWON: In the meantime, I don't think that should remain
22 attached to the witness statement, so that can be removed from the
23 witness statement which was admitted as P --
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE KWON: Did we give a number to his amalgamated statement?
Page 9658
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, we did.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
4 Q. Mr. Svraka, in your statement you described that the two of your
5 friends and colleagues Mr. Ramo Herceglija and Mr. Hajvaz were killed.
6 What Mr. Herceglija doing in the Markale Market? Do you know that?
7 A. Mr. Herceglija was a co-worker at a construction company in
8 Sarajevo. We had worked for five years together. There was a group of
9 people there. We had been together -- co-workers together for 10 to
10 15 years. That's where I found him, and I sent a letter via my sister to
11 him, and when I was on my way home I met them, both him, Ramo, and
12 Mr. Hajvaz. I met them outside the shopping centre.
13 Now, I'd just like to make it clear here that there are two
14 different massacres -- or incidents involving massacres that bear the
15 name of Markale. One is the Markale Market and the other is the Markale
16 shopping centre.
17 Q. Yes, Witness, Mr. Svraka. We know that. I just need to -- just
18 concentrate on your own observations. And my question was: What was
19 Mr. Herceglija doing at the Markale Market at that time?
20 A. On that day I met Herceglija, he was there smoking and he was
21 with this other man, who I think was also a pensioner. He had a bicycle
22 with him, and he had a jar with honey in it, and he -- so he had a jar of
23 honey that he was trying to sell. Whether he actually managed to sell it
24 or not, I don't know, but on that day he had a jar of jam or preserves or
25 honey of dandelion. That's a flower, a yellow flower.
Page 9659
1 Q. Thank you.
2 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, we have to rise.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I'm not finished yet. I would need
4 another ten minutes but we can do that on Monday, of course.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We have to adjourn, Mr. Svraka, for
6 today and we will resume at 9.00 on Monday morning. I apologise for your
7 inconvenience. In the meantime, you are not supposed to discuss about
8 your evidence with anybody else.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm aware of that.
10 JUDGE KWON: I hope you have a nice weekend.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.46 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 13th day
13 of December, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.
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