Page 9855
1 Wednesday, 15 December 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
7 Good morning, Mr. Bell.
8 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue your
10 cross-examination.
11 WITNESS: MARTIN BELL [Resumed]
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Good morning to you all.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bell.
16 A. Good morning, sir.
17 Q. With your leave, I would like to try to put some simplified
18 questions, and I hope that yes-or-no answers would be possible,
19 therefore. However, if ever you feel the need to say a bit more, in line
20 with your talents as a writer, please feel free to do so.
21 [In English] Would you agree?
22 A. I will do my best, Dr. Karadzic.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you. Yesterday, you mentioned that at the
24 beginning of the war, criminal elements came to the fore and took
25 advantage of the situation as it was. Were you referring to all three
Page 9856
1 sides when you said that?
2 A. Yes, I was.
3 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that the first barricades in Sarajevo
4 the beginning of March were erected not because of the referendum, but
5 because a member of a Serbian wedding party at Bascarsija was killed? It
6 was the father of the groom.
7 A. I'm aware of that incident. The first -- the first barricade
8 that I came across was near what is now the Office of the
9 High Representative.
10 Q. Thank you. If you remember, it wasn't the Serbs who were
11 hindering the referendum. As a matter of fact, it was carried out even
12 in communities where Serbs accounted for 80 or 90 per cent of the
13 population.
14 A. The first funeral that I attended was, indeed, the funeral of the
15 Serb killed in that incident.
16 Q. Thank you. Did you manage to find out then that Ramiz Delalic,
17 Celo, the murderer of that member of the wedding party, spoke on
18 television immediately after that, bragging about what he had done?
19 A. I was not aware of that, Dr. Karadzic.
20 Q. Thank you. Agreeing with you on criminals being on all three
21 sides, I would like to ask you whether you had information to the effect
22 that some criminals in Sarajevo
23 dealt with them only in the autumn of 1993, like Musan Topalovic, Caco,
24 commander of the 9th Brigade, Ismet Bajramovic, Celo, Ramiz Delalic,
25 Celo, Juka Prazina, also a criminal who was also a general; were you
Page 9857
1 aware of that group of prominent criminals who had big military units of
2 their own?
3 A. The one I knew personally was Juka Prazina. I was not aware he
4 was a general. In fact, he defected to, as I remember, to the HVO, and I
5 last saw him fighting for the HVO in Mostar.
6 Q. That's right. However, for a year, he fought in Sarajevo
7 on, he was liquidated in Belgium
8 A. Yes, I do, Dr. Karadzic.
9 Q. Thank you. You reported about ethnic strife in Bosanski Brod on
10 the 4th of March. Actually, the conflicts occurred on the 3rd of March
11 and then on the 4th of March in Bosanski Brod, where the Serbs were a
12 considerable minority and where they were attacked. Do you remember the
13 massacre on the 25th and the 26th of March in Sijekovac, near
14 Bosanski Brod?
15 A. I was not in Bosanski Brod at the time, Dr. Karadzic.
16 Q. Yes. But somehow I have 0029-4185 up to 4284. That's an
17 ERN number, actually. I have this information. Were you aware of this
18 ethnic strife in Bosanski Brod?
19 A. According to my notes, Dr. Karadzic, I was not in Bosnia
20 March the 5th and April the 6th, 1992
21 Q. Thank you. Now I understood what this is. This is a review of
22 BBC
23 I noticed in your statements that you were aware of different
24 alliances in this war among these three peoples. For example, you knew
25 that Serbs and Croats co-operated between Kiseljak and Ilidza, between
Page 9858
1 Vares and the neighbouring municipalities, and Zepce and Teslic, and
2 sometimes even around Mostar, whereas elsewhere they were fighting each
3 other. Do you agree that this is yet further proof of the looseness of a
4 central command?
5 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Could I please have a reference to the following:
8 At page 3, line 22, Dr. Karadzic says:
9 "I noticed in your statements that you were aware of different
10 alliances in this war among these three peoples ..."
11 And then goes on to name a number of specific locations. Could I
12 please have a reference in that regard?
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 Mr. Karadzic.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if Mr. Bell does not readily
16 remember that, I'm going to drop it altogether. Perhaps I could find a
17 reference, nevertheless. Just a moment, please.
18 Here it is. Dragomir Milosevic, the testimony there, transcript
19 on the 27th of April, 2007
20 about these alliances between Serbs and Croats during the war, then the
21 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croats in Central Bosnia, and so on and so
22 forth.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Is that right, Mr. Bell?
25 A. Yes, I was aware of these -- of these improvised alliances. And
Page 9859
1 in answer to your question, I would say that local commanders were given
2 considerable latitude, especially in the early months of the war.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
5 MS. EDGERTON: May I note that on page 5282, there is absolutely
6 nothing citing the specific locations that Dr. Karadzic has mentioned in
7 his question.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is possible that these locations
10 were not mentioned in that particular place, but I'm sure that Mr. Bell
11 will remember that it wasn't a general thing throughout the territory; if
12 they were allies in one location, that they were allies throughout
13 Bosnia
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Do you agree with that, Mr. Bell, that Serbs and Croats waged war
16 in one place and were allies in another place?
17 A. I think I would cite the case of Vares, where, so far as I know,
18 there was no fighting throughout the entire war.
19 JUDGE KWON: I wonder whether, Mr. Bell, you are in the position
20 to confirm about the other places. It has gone now, but he mentioned
21 Zepce and Teslic.
22 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I was aware of some of these, but not
23 others.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 9860
1 Q. You noted that from time to time, there was intensive urban
2 fighting, especially in the beginning, from street to street, practically
3 for every house, as it were?
4 A. Yes, that was my experience.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour. These questions, Your Honour, are so
6 vague as to time and place that I would ask for some measure of
7 clarification. We don't know if this is meant to refer to any particular
8 location in the former Yugoslavia
9 JUDGE MORRISON: Ms. Edgerton, I'm sure Dr. Karadzic is trying to
10 paint a picture of a situation which happened as a matter of generality,
11 and I'm sure that Mr. Bell is more than capable of dealing with that, if
12 he doesn't agree with that as a general proposition.
13 JUDGE KWON: But having said that, Mr. Karadzic, just general
14 comments do not help us much. Be specific as much as possible.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 My intention was to play a video, a video-clip.
17 As for close observation, as far as the Serbs are concerned,
18 Mr. Bell knew the most about Sarajevo
19 saying that we were talking about Sarajevo
20 1D2809, could we have that, please.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 "In the last few days, some of the firing in Sarajevo
23 directed for the first time at United Nations forces. Last Thursday
24 night, one of their billets, the Marsal Tito Barracks, took 34 mortar
25 rounds. The UN has also been hampered, it's said, by some shambolic
Page 9861
1 co-ordination. But as the fires continue to burn and the violence
2 escalates, have the people of Bosnia
3 similar shambles between the international bodies charged with keeping
4 the peace in Europe
5 "... charged with keeping the peace in Europe?"
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Am I right if I say that you had observed and reported that there
8 was fire on all sides and that it was mainly aimed at the front-line,
9 itself; military facilities, as we can see here?
10 A. Dr. Karadzic, some of it was certainly aimed at military
11 facilities. And I would imagine the fire we saw there, which I saw this
12 every night for four months, was targeted on front-line positions. But
13 also there were -- there were snipers and mortars used at -- whether or
14 not civilians were targeted, civilians were certainly hit, and to that
15 extent the firing was indiscriminate.
16 Q. In your statement of 1995 and 1996, on page 7, and later on in
17 paragraph 6, and actually later in your testimony in the Perisic and
18 Milosevic cases, you confirmed that this fighting was house by house,
19 street by street, and it was typical urban fighting; right?
20 A. I was referring in that testimony to the fighting in the early
21 weeks of the war, when the front-lines were being -- when the lines of
22 confrontation were being established.
23 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, you told us that there were days when more
24 fire was going out of town rather than coming into town. Now I would
25 like us to look at the direction of this fire to see whether it was clear
Page 9862
1 that heavy weapons were being fired from town.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we just play a tiny little bit?
3 Do you have this video? Let's go ahead.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Do you agree that this fire, that is actually going up, is aimed
6 at the positions of the Serbs in Trebevic and is coming from town?
7 [Video-clip played]
8 THE WITNESS: That fire appears to be aimed in that direction,
9 yes.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Q. Do you agree that it would have been a good thing if the
12 representatives of the international community and the media knew about
13 the deployment of units and military infrastructure in general in town?
14 In that case, perhaps assessments regarding selectiveness and
15 non-selectiveness would have been more accurate.
16 A. Dr. Karadzic, I'm unaware of the date of the video you have just
17 shown. And you will know that there was a period when, during much of
18 May and early June, when there was no United Nations presence in Sarajevo
19 at all. They left.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 We're going to call up a document that has already been admitted.
22 Actually, can we have the video-clip admitted now?
23 JUDGE KWON: Have we got the date of this video, Mr. Karadzic?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we got this along with the
25 material from Mr. Bell, and it's BBC
Page 9863
1 to get a number now. V000-3327A. I think that we played part of it
2 yesterday.
3 JUDGE KWON: In any event, Mr. Karadzic, as a matter of
4 principle, we'll mark this video for identification until we get the
5 transcription of this video. So in due course, you are to provide us
6 with the date of this video as well.
7 This will be marked for identification as the next exhibit.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
9 Exhibit D923, marked for identification pending further transcription and
10 date of the clip. Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We're going to provide the time
12 reference, too.
13 D339, could we have that now, please. Let us just cast a glance
14 at this.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Actually, we establish here, Mr. Bell, that the Muslims concealed
17 their weaponry from the UN rather skillfully. Did they allow you access
18 to their heavy weapons in town? Were you aware of the deployment of
19 their heavy weapons in town?
20 A. I was aware that they had at least one tank in a tunnel.
21 Occasionally, we would come across their mortar positions, and it became
22 a very sensitive issue with their field security, so that if we showed
23 their mortars firing, we might suffer the consequences.
24 Q. Thank you. Could you please have a look at this document of the
25 1st Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say, their army.
Page 9864
1 The date is the 16th of February, 1993. A mixed artillery/rocket brigade
2 is being disbanded, and the equipment is being re-deployed. Mortar
3 battery, 120 millimetres, with all personnel and technical resources, it
4 is being deployed in the 3rd Motorised Brigade. Then the
5 Howitzer Brigade, 105 millimetres, with all personnel and equipment, is
6 being transferred to a newly formed 1st Motorised Brigade. Then a
7 howitzer battery of 122 millimetres, self-propelled battery,
8 122 millimetres. So obviously they managed to conceal this weaponry of
9 theirs rather successfully in town. Do you agree with that?
10 A. We never doubted, Dr. Karadzic, that they had some heavy weapons,
11 but the preponderance of advantage in heavy weapons was, from start to
12 finish, always with the Bosnian Serbs.
13 Q. Thank you. We might agree on that, but do you remember that part
14 of this Serb weaponry had to be oriented towards the external ring that
15 was over 200 kilometres facing Zenica, Tuzla and so on? Do you agree
16 that there were lines there as well, front-lines, and that part of our
17 weapons had to be there?
18 A. There is no doubt, Dr. Karadzic, that around Sarajevo you were
19 stretched over a double confrontation line.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Could I now please have 1D1927 in e-court. 1D1927. This is a
22 document from 1993.
23 Can we move on to page 20. Let us see what the UN knew about the
24 deployment of Serb and Muslim heavy weapons. Let us look at paragraph A
25 here:
Page 9865
1 "All heavy weapons will be withdrawn to designated locations ..."
2 And here they are: Mojmilo, Dobrinja, under Muslim control.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Do you agree? Then Lukavica, Gornji Kotorac under Serb control;
5 Vojkovici in Serb hands; Hrasnica, Muslim; Sokolovic Kolonija, Muslim;
6 Butmir, Muslim; Ilidza, Serb; Otes, Serb at the time; Stup, Croatian;
7 Nedzarici, Serbian. Do you remember these locations?
8 A. Yes, I remember most of them. It's clear the United Nations was
9 trying -- was attempting an even-handed agreement.
10 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that Mojmilo was a dominant hill in
11 the hands of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina? It dominated over Lukavica,
12 Dobrinja and Ilidza. Remember Mojmilo Hill?
13 A. Yes, of course, Dr. Karadzic. I remember going there after
14 French UN armour was seized outside Lukavica, and we actually -- we were
15 escorted up to the top of the hill, and we could look down from there and
16 see Lukavica and the French vehicles.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Can this UN report be admitted?
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
21 Exhibit D924. Thank you.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Q. You were aware of the fact that the intensity of fighting was not
24 the same all the time. There were lulls in the fire as well, and then we
25 tried to inform the international public of what was happening. Or,
Page 9866
1 rather, did you try to say why there was intensive fighting from time to
2 time? I'm referring to military and political contexts at the same time.
3 A. Dr. Karadzic, I remember reporting lulls in the winter of 1993 to
4 1994 and the winter of 1994 to 1995, including a cease-fire at one time.
5 I remember, in the early summer of 1995, an attack up-hill by units of
6 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina in an attempt to take a section of the
7 confrontation line, which they briefly succeeded in doing, and that was
8 one of those days when I would judge there was more fire coming out of
9 the city than going into it.
10 Q. Thank you. We'll deal with the political contexts later, but
11 let's turn now to military context.
12 Do you recall that in June 1992, at the time of the negotiations
13 in Geneva
14 was especially intensive as of 8th June?
15 A. Dr. Karadzic, as I testified yesterday, the BBC, having fled in
16 the second week in May, was not there on the 7th or 8th of June, and I
17 had difficulty getting back in. It must have been about the 15th or
18 16th. We had to face -- we had to face fire crossing the -- we drove
19 across from Lukavica, and we had to face fire crossing the airport
20 runway.
21 Q. I think this is paragraph 71 in your amalgamated statement.
22 You're right, it was not the 1st of June. It was just June 1992:
23 [In English] "I watched a video which I am advised is number
24 V000-0800," and so on, "on the situation in Sarajevo in late June 1992.
25 In this clip, I reported under constant bombardment of the city, since
Page 9867
1 the United Nations had withdrawn from the airport."
2 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
3 Mr. Bell, do you have your statement before you?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, thank you.
6 Mr. Karadzic, what is your question?
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Looking at the statement and the reporting of Mr. Bell, I
9 identified about six periods where BBC
10 fighting, and I would just like to place them into the context of
11 offensives, see if they coincided with offensives.
12 Let's look at paragraph 71, for example. It deals with
13 June 1992; correct?
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now take a look at P998.
16 Can the previous document be admitted? Is it already in
17 evidence?
18 Then P998.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Just one sentence:
21 "The enemy launched an all-out offensive, engaging his forces on
22 the following axes:"
23 And then the axes are enumerated, with the intention of lifting
24 the blockade of Sarajevo
25 military context, and was it an offensive by the BH Army?
Page 9868
1 A. Dr. Karadzic, there was more than one day of heavy fighting
2 between mid and late June. I had, of course, no access to the internal
3 documents of either side's high command. What I was particularly
4 referring to in paragraph 71 was some images that were shown in this
5 court yesterday of a succession of mortars exploding in the center of the
6 city of Sarajevo
7 Q. May I ask you to look at para 4. In English, it should be the
8 next page.
9 Do you see the objective of operations? I think it's somewhere
10 in the middle of this paragraph.
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, in relation to his statement, in
12 particular in relation to 71, I think, speaking for myself, we had got
13 everything we can get from him. There's no further point showing him the
14 exhibit that has been already admitted.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I just wanted to see if
16 this was shooting at random or it was in the context of an offensive,
17 whereas the Serbs did not have any interest in launching an offensive, no
18 reason.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Paragraph 54, Mr. Bell, again relates your observations of
21 quieter periods in winters and deteriorations during the summers between
22 1992 and 1995; do you agree?
23 A. Yes, especially, Your Honours, the summers of 1992 and 1995.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I now call up D192 to see what
25 was going on in the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in Izetbegovic's
Page 9869
1 Presidency, on the 17th of June, 1992.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. This is a confirmation from the Presidency of Bosnia and
4 Herzegovina
5 you observed this intensive fighting.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see page 6 in Serbian. I
7 believe it's the page 6 in English.
8 JUDGE KWON: On page 1, first page.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Only a part of it has been
10 translated, so let's leave it there.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Under 2:
13 "Disposition and status of the forces of Territorial Defence."
14 These were their forces before the army was established. The
15 last paragraph in English:
16 "Disposition and status of TO forces in Sarajevo region:"
17 And then it enumerates:
18 "The Territorial Defence of the Sarajevo region is composed of
19 the following: Regional headquarters ..."
20 Next page in English.
21 "... two mortar batteries, 120 millimetres, with 12 weapons;
22 105-millimetre howitzer battery with five weapons; artillery unit,
23 122 millimetres ..."
24 And so on:
25 "... 500 independent platoons, 16 headquarters, 16 TO companies,
Page 9870
1 and around 500 independent units ..."
2 Is this a considerable force that they managed to conceal both
3 from the United Nations and the media?
4 A. It is a considerable force. We were, of course, aware of
5 military installations and units in the city and near the confrontation
6 lines. But, of course, all these documents are entirely new to me
7 because you will not be surprised to hear that the high commands did not
8 share their secrets with us on the ground. All we could do was report
9 what we saw and what we knew from various vantage points in and around
10 the city.
11 Q. These are the words of Sefer Halilovic, who is briefing his
12 supreme command about the potentials they dispose of.
13 Can we just see page 12, and let's leave the same page in
14 English:
15 "In the region of Sarajevo
16 and active operations outside town and inside the town will be carried
17 out to lift the blockade on the following axes: Nova Grad, Ilidza,
18 Blazuj, Kiseljak, and Centar-Vogosca, Ilijas, Visoko, whereas in the
19 region of Gorazde, the road will be deblocked in the Drina River Valley
20 This is their own document from June.
21 Do you agree now that all these battles, when placed in this
22 context, and bearing in mind their actual potential, the fighting could
23 be seen from an entirely different perspective?
24 A. It might help, Your Honours, if I just confine myself to what I
25 know.
Page 9871
1 It was always clear to me that there would be attempts by the
2 forces of the government to try and break the siege, both from inside and
3 from outside. They came nearest to doing it in the summer of 1995. From
4 my point of view, there were almost two wars going on. One was a war
5 between the armed forces of either side based around the confrontation
6 lines. The other manifested itself in bombardments of a crowded city
7 with a lot of civilians in it.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see P1000.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. And while we're waiting: Do you agree that one should know, if a
11 shell is headed for a settlement, whether a mobile mortar is located
12 there or perhaps another piece of military infrastructure? Do you agree
13 that it would be of assistance to know whether fire is indiscriminate or
14 not?
15 A. Well, I know, from my own perspective, I was hit by a mortar
16 shell at the back of the Tito Barracks, where there were no heavy weapons
17 or even light weapons anywhere around me at the time.
18 Perhaps I could refer Your Honours again to the film that was
19 shown yesterday of the sniping of the people carrying water. There were
20 no weapons around there either.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We'll come to that.
22 Can we now see the next page. This is the 26th of June, 1992
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. The Command of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps orders certain things
25 to its subordinate brigades. May I kindly ask you to look at number 9.
Page 9872
1 It says:
2 "Organise impeccably the firing system and co-ordinate it with
3 obstacles. Fire to be opened only on military targets."
4 The English translation is not so good. It should be "must"
5 instead of "should," because the Serbian is clearly imperative:
6 "Organise and open fire only on military targets."
7 Now, I understand, Mr. Bell, that they did not share their
8 secrets with you, but do you recall that there were mortars mounted on
9 vehicles, and they moved around the city and opened fire from various
10 locations?
11 A. Yes, Dr. Karadzic, I saw that for myself.
12 Can I -- I would add, though, that if the date of that document,
13 and it's a commendable -- paragraph 9 is a commendable order. The date
14 of that document is the same date that I record in my notes of the time
15 exceptional amount of activity -- sniping activity 'round what we knew as
16 Sniper's Corner. In fact, I did a report about it on that day.
17 Q. I noted in your statement from 1995 and 1996 that you, and
18 probably the others, relied on their common sense to determine who might
19 be shooting.
20 A. I would say, Dr. Karadzic, that common sense should play a part
21 in journalism.
22 Q. Do you agree that in our kind of civil war, common sense took a
23 slightly different form?
24 A. I would be fascinated to know what form that was, Dr. Karadzic.
25 Q. I just wanted to say that if we were to follow common sense, that
Page 9873
1 would lead us to believe that nobody would shoot at themselves ever.
2 A. Yeah, I would accept that.
3 Q. However, we knew that sides were opening fire on their own. I
4 hope mine did not do that, because they would have no benefit to derive
5 from that, but the adversary certainly did shoot on their own.
6 Let me just show one document. That's 1D2485. Sorry, it already
7 has a D number. That's D681. This was sent to General Rose on
8 27 October 1994
9 Can we see the next page.
10 Flag B and then the last:
11 [In English] "All evidence and corroboration by Bosnian officials
12 indicate that shots came from Bosnian-held territory."
13 [Interpretation] Their side opened fire at their own tram, and
14 you will see, on one of the following pages, what the motivation for that
15 was.
16 Do you agree that this is a UN report?
17 A. It appears to be a UN report, yes.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Can we see D680. There's no Serbian version. We don't need
20 to -- the English version will suffice.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. This is a UN report for 9 September 1994. The location is
23 Livanjska Street
24 Can we see the next page, please.
25 The angle of descent estimated at 70 to 75 degrees.
Page 9874
1 Can we turn the page to see the conclusion:
2 [In English] "It is possible to conclude that the most suspected
3 area are under the control of BiH.
4 "To fire from BSA positions and from the same direction (between
5 12 and 16 mils), the distance should be at least 3.700 metres. The angle
6 of descent in that case should be less than 60 degrees."
7 [Interpretation] So this is one more example where the
8 United Nations conclude that this shell landed on Bosnian territory, on
9 Muslim territory, from Muslim territory. This knowledge that was
10 available to the United Nations, was it shared with the media?
11 A. The one occasion, Dr. Karadzic, when I can remember it was shared
12 with us was when General MacKenzie, just before he left, gave a news
13 conference to the Bosnian press, in which he said that it would be
14 helpful if both sides stopped attacking their own people. Clearly, this
15 document is one that the Court will have to take account of. I think
16 I can only help the Court, Your Honours, if I confine myself to what I
17 know about.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, that's what I'm telling you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then I will not show the document,
20 because I believe it falls under Rule 70.
21 Let me just say that the bread queue explosion on the
22 27th of May, 1992, was also estimated to have been caused from the Muslim
23 side.
24 Let me now come back to one point --
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
Page 9875
1 MS. EDGERTON: That's Dr. Karadzic giving evidence, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's D -- just a moment. D230. We
4 would have to go into private session to show this document.
5 JUDGE KWON: You said you wouldn't show this document.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it's in evidence,
7 Your Honours. But I believe it falls under Rule 70, so I would not like
8 to have it broadcast. If we can, we should go into private session for a
9 moment.
10 JUDGE KWON: Shall we carry on in public session without
11 broadcasting it?
12 MS. EDGERTON: The notation -- I can only go on the basis of the
13 notations I have in e-court with respect to this document, and the
14 notation reads that it is, at the direction of the provider, to be used
15 in private session, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE KWON: We'll go into private session.
17 But, Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Bell made it clear that he cannot testify
18 on what he did not know at the time, and I doubt the point of this
19 exercise.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I appreciate that,
21 but I should like to look, together with this very important witness, at
22 the kind of situation we were dealing with, what kind of tricks were
23 being used, and not to turn these tricks into facts. I also wish to say
24 that the media was at difficulty to find out the whole truth about
25 Sarajevo
Page 9876
1 JUDGE KWON: We are still in open session.
2 You can put your case to the witness and can hear his opinion,
3 and then you can make argument later on, relying on this evidence.
4 But we go into private session to see that document.
5 [Private session]
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 9877
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 [Open session]
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are now in open session.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Would you agree that the bombing of Sarajevo, or shooting, at the
15 time important people were visiting could certainly not have been in the
16 interests of the Serbs, it could only be to their detriment?
17 A. My experience of war, Dr. Karadzic, which is considerable, is
18 that it's very hard to divine the intentions of people who mount
19 offensives, and there can be a miscalculation of the political effect.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Could we now see 1D2889, a video. 2889.
22 This was 2890. We need 2889. Thank you.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 "... an official here, Yasushi Akashi, was back in Sarajevo
25 trying to restart the totally blocked peace process. He had been at the
Page 9878
1 Bosnian Presidency 20 minutes when the Serbs, if it was the Serbs, gave
2 him their answer."
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 "A wire-guided anti-tank missile hit and badly damaged an office
6 at the back of the building. French UN troops deployed immediately, but
7 the attack occurred on a day when the United Nations was publicly
8 avoiding a confrontation with the Serbs, for which it is not prepared.
9 The UN here is in a state of crisis."
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Q. So there was this suspicion that perhaps it wasn't the Serbs,
12 because that would have considerably worsened the political position of
13 the Serbs; would you agree?
14 A. Dr. Karadzic, you'll be aware I chose my words with great care,
15 because I always tried to report only what I knew about. And I couldn't
16 be a hundred per cent sure that that came from your territory, so I said
17 "the Serbs, if it was the Serbs," and I think that was a fair
18 reservation, entering the benefit of the doubt into the calculation.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Can this video-clip be admitted?
21 JUDGE KWON: What's the number of this clip again?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 2889. We are going to provide the
23 time references.
24 JUDGE KWON: It was 1D2889?
25 MS. EDGERTON: And it's actually already been admitted as P1679,
Page 9879
1 I'm advised, through General Rose, as an associated exhibit to his
2 written evidence.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now just have a look at
5 two sentences from D217. That is General MacKenzie's book.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Bell, what I wish to do here is to establish whether there
8 were certain patterns involved in war trickery and ruses that were aimed
9 at vilifying the other side.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So I'm actually asking for D217.
11 Page 16 in this document, please. That is Chapter 18.
12 My counting must have been wrong. It's the next page.
13 I would like to draw your attention to the 26th of May -- or,
14 rather, the 6th of May. General MacKenzie says that he spent the day
15 with Goulding, and then they took a walk with President Izetbegovic.
16 Can we have the next page now, please.
17 So they walked with Izetbegovic, and they came under modest fire
18 in the middle of the old city; infantry fire, at that. That indicated
19 that this was yet another one of the tricks that was supposed to put the
20 Serbs in a bad light.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Does this sound familiar to you? Or, rather, do you understand
23 this, that there was this game of vilifying the other side, in this case
24 the Serb side?
25 A. I think each side had an interest in the world community taking a
Page 9880
1 critical view of the other side. I do remember General MacKenzie, whom I
2 knew extremely well. I was with him on a number of occasions when
3 shooting would start from where we knew not, and he would say, It's
4 show-time. And I think he's doing it again here in his book.
5 Q. Thank you. We believe that that secret directive of
6 Hasan Efendic that we displayed yesterday was -- actually, it was from
7 the end of April, wasn't it? It was a secret declaration of war against
8 the JNA and the Bosnian Serbs. Do you remember that the Muslim
9 Presidency, on the 20th of June, declared war on the Bosnian Serbs as
10 well as Serbian Montenegro?
11 A. On the 20th of June, I was reporting a United Nations withdrawal
12 from the airport, Dr. Karadzic.
13 Q. Let us shed more light on these patterns. You were fully aware
14 of that. In paragraph 79 of your statement, you say -- it has to do with
15 August 1992:
16 [In English] "It was one of the patterns of the course of the war
17 that the fighting would intensify before a peace conference, as both
18 sides tried to improve their positions on the ground."
19 [Interpretation] Do you agree that in addition to this military
20 reason, there was this propaganda-related reason, and that we did have
21 problems in the political field because of these tricks?
22 A. Dr. Karadzic, I think that all wars are wars not only of weapons,
23 but of words and images too. This applies especially to wars among the
24 people, which this one was, and a military commander will try and seize
25 the -- seize the narrative; not necessarily in misleading the public,
Page 9881
1 but, rather, in making it clear what he's trying to do and why he's
2 trying to do it. I cannot, in all my wars, think of a war in which the
3 words and images were more decisive than in this one.
4 At the same time, one reason that there would be an up-surge in
5 the fighting before a conference, as I made clear in my statement,
6 paragraph 79, was that if at any -- and you all had your eyes on the maps
7 all the time -- that if there ever were a final settlement with the
8 status quo, then the more you could improve your position on the ground,
9 and this applies to both sides, the better.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Can we now have a look at 65 ter 1600. 65 ter number is 1600.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Also admitted as D235.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. You're right.
14 At the very beginning, it says -- I'm not sure whether the
15 English version is the same thing. Oh, yes, it is, but the next one,
16 please.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. The 3rd of August, 1992. As you recall, the
19 Carrington Conference is still underway, not the Vance-Owen Conference.
20 The first sentence says:
21 "The enemy started violating the agreed 14-day cease-fire before
22 its end, and offensive operations, in particular, have been underway ..."
23 Et cetera. And there's a reference to the intentions involved.
24 This is a document of the Main Staff of the Army of
25 Republika Srpska. This directive is being sent to lower-ranking units,
Page 9882
1 and they are providing information as to what is happening in Sarajevo
2 It illustrates the point you made earlier on, that on the eve of the
3 conferences and when attempts are being made to find a solution, other
4 attempts are being made to change the situation on the ground; right?
5 A. Yes, I think that's generally accepted. In the case of this
6 particular document, I wouldn't comment on it, as, again, I wasn't in
7 Bosnia
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Can this be admitted? Oh, it has been admitted, right.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. You do remember that in January, the Geneva Peace Conference had
12 on its agenda the Vance-Owen Plan. And in paragraph 83 of your
13 amalgamated statement, you say that in January, you returned to Sarajevo
14 for the "Panorama" programme. Can you find that paragraph?
15 A. I have it.
16 Q. Thank you. You were referring to a video-clip here as well, an
17 excerpt from a film that was made during that period. It is described as
18 heavy bombing of the old city:
19 [In English] "In Sarajevo, the horrors are not just heard, but
20 lived through day by day."
21 [Interpretation] Do you remember that at the time, Muslims were
22 leaving Trebinje at the time of the conference on the 20th of January,
23 1993? There was this excessive departure by Muslims from Trebinje at the
24 time of the conference?
25 A. Well, I will take your word for it, Dr. Karadzic. I think about
Page 9883
1 that time, I'd flown to New York
2 Vance-Owen Plan.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 1D1851, can we have a look at that, please.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. In this period, I am dealing with all of these things that were
7 being done in order to create a false picture to vilify the Serbs, to
8 create --
9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, either you put the question or refrain
10 from making statements.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 D471, that's it. Now we're going to see it.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. This is an instruction of the SDA party to leave Trebinje and to
15 have Muslims go to Montenegro
16 your interviews with the president of the Assembly of the SAO Herzegovina
17 and the president of the municipality of Trebinje
18 A. I think it's possible that you're mistaken. If I had visited
19 Trebinje at that time, I would surely have remembered it.
20 Q. May I draw your attention to the first paragraph. It says:
21 "... especially after the acceptance of the Geneva documents by
22 Karadzic and his clique in Pale, it is necessary, for the purpose of
23 realising the aspiration of all Muslims, the preservation and
24 strengthening of our state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, to undertake
25 urgently the following measures ..."
Page 9884
1 And number 1 says: "Leaving Trebinje," and number 3 is:
2 "To exert pressure against those who do not want to leave
3 Trebinje."
4 And on the second page -- can we have the second page in Serbian.
5 It says -- I think that we should do that in English as well -- that
6 their property will be compensated, and the signature here is that of
7 Hasan Cengic, a rather well-known official of the SDA.
8 So such departures, on the basis of what you know, were they not
9 aimed at creating a picture of ethnic cleansing?
10 A. Dr. Karadzic, I have to confine my testimony to what I know
11 about, and I have no personal knowledge of this situation in Trebinje.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 1D2876, can we have that now, please.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. You spoke about that in your statement of 1995 and 1996, that I
16 opposed the effort made by the Red Cross to evacuate a large number of
17 Muslims and Croats from the Banja Luka region, the Banja Luka Krajina.
18 Do you remember that?
19 A. I think -- can you -- are we talking about late August 1994?
20 Q. Yes, yes.
21 3393, can we have that part.
22 Do you see that here, where it says: "The Red Cross ..."?
23 A. Yes. I think -- I think what we're talking about here were a
24 series of reports that I did in Central Bosnia, near Travnik, on the
25 confrontation line, when refugees, both Muslim and Croat, came across in
Page 9885
1 large numbers.
2 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that -- actually, that was 279. The
3 ERN number is 0029-5587 up until 5692. 0029-569 [as interpreted] to
4 5650, page 1467 and 1468.
5 Do you remember that the International Red Cross asked us to
6 allow them to evacuate a large number of Muslims and Croats, to send them
7 to third
8 that pressure and I allowed a certain number of trucks to leave every
9 day? Do you remember that?
10 A. I'm not aware of the details of your negotiations with the
11 International Red Cross, but, of course, I remember the trucks and buses
12 coming with the Muslims and the Croats to the front-line position outside
13 Travnik.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Can the document be admitted?
16 JUDGE KWON: What is this document, Mr. Karadzic?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a survey of BBC reports,
18 BBC
19 that evacuation that the Red Cross had demanded and the Serbian
20 leadership had opposed. Later on, it was characterised as ethnic
21 cleansing. We'll have the statement of John Alstrum, too.
22 JUDGE KWON: Is this summary the one produced by the BBC, itself?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
25 MS. EDGERTON: It's actually an extract from the archival
Page 9886
1 catalogue of BBC
2 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
3 JUDGE KWON: So I take it there's no objection. We'll admit it.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
5 Exhibit D925. Thank you.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have for a second D336.
7 D336.
8 What the Defence wishes to establish here are patterns, patterns
9 of behaviour in this war, the patterns of the other side, at that, that
10 cost us militarily and politically, especially in terms of vilification.
11 January 1993.
12 Can we look at paragraph 3 now.
13 The Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina -- actually, there is still
14 this offensive in Sarajevo
15 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the HVO as well in Central Bosnia.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Can you recall that offensive in Sarajevo in January 1993?
18 A. In January 1993, I was in Central Bosnia, reporting on the war
19 between the Muslims and Croats. No, I'm sorry, that's a mistake. I was
20 not there.
21 I note this document says a BiH Army offensive in Sarajevo would
22 appear to remain on hold. That would suggest that the UN thought it was
23 about to happen, but it hadn't happened yet. And I was not in -- I was
24 not in Bosnia
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 3 of this
Page 9887
1 document.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Paragraph 11, the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina is preparing to
4 launch an offensive without the assistance of the Croats. And then
5 paragraph 13, the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina actually has the
6 following military objectives: A, B, C, D. And then look at D and E; to
7 launch an offensive in the Sarajevo
8 bargaining position in negotiations, and then to continue re-armament and
9 the build up of their forces and resources, to continue the war and gain
10 an advantage.
11 Was that your impression, too, like the one that the UN is
12 stating here and informing their headquarters of?
13 A. This seems to me, Dr. Karadzic, to be a reasonable assessment of
14 intentions at the time, except if we're talking about January, it would
15 be very unusual to launch an offensive in January for the obvious reasons
16 that the weather would be hostile.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Can this document be admitted? Oh, it has been admitted. I beg
19 your pardon. I beg your pardon. Sorry, it's 336.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, just before we go further, I just
21 want to address something on page 30, lines 8 to 11. Dr. Karadzic said
22 to Mr. Bell:
23 "You spoke of that in your statement of 1995 and 1996, that I
24 opposed the effort made by the Red Cross to evacuate a large number of
25 Muslims and Croats from the Banja Luka region. Do you remember that?"
Page 9888
1 I've looked through that statement. The words "Red Cross" don't
2 appear in the statement at all. I'd be happy to be corrected.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that that was published in
4 the media, that it was a Red Cross action.
5 JUDGE KWON: But immediately he referred to the BBC extract,
6 so --
7 MS. EDGERTON: Indeed.
8 JUDGE KWON: But let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Upon returning to Sarajevo
11 of 1993 - you say that you noticed considerable changes in the political
12 atmosphere in Sarajevo
13 or, rather, Islamisation of the Assembly and political life in general.
14 Do you remember that? You noted that Muslims were setting the agenda,
15 calling meetings, that they were of decisive importance as far as the
16 quest for solutions was concerned, and that this was something that the
17 Croats really did mind because they felt that they were being left out of
18 things?
19 A. I think that was a fair assessment of the political situation at
20 the time. The Croats did believe they were being excluded, and,
21 actually, to some extent they still do.
22 Q. I agree. It's the statement of 1995 and 1996. It's the first
23 paragraph on page 13, although the paragraphs are not numbered.
24 So we do agree that to this day, Croats have objections of their
25 own and are seeking solutions that would be better for them; right?
Page 9889
1 A. Yeah, it's hardly a matter for this -- for this Court, but, yes,
2 they are feeling harder done by, politically.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would this be a convenient time for
4 the break?
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it's almost time.
6 If it is convenient, we'll have a break for half an hour, and
7 we'll resume at three minutes to 11.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Q. Mr. Bell, you observed the events in Zvornik early in April. You
13 saw and reported that first the Serbs fled Zvornik, and then the men
14 returned and fighting started; is that correct?
15 A. Yes. First, the Serbs fled at Zvornik, across the river, so far
16 as I could determine, and then I'm assuming that some of them returned.
17 But the fighting forces that we saw on that video yesterday were
18 Commander Arkan's.
19 Q. Thank you. May I now remind you of the chain of events. On the
20 3rd of March, the crisis in Bosanski Brod. On the 25th and
21 26th of March, the crisis and massacre in Sijekovac. The 1st of April
22 and 2nd of April, the crisis in Bijeljina. The 3rd of April, attack in
23 Kupres. 8th or 9th of April, Zvornik. Would you agree that all this
24 happened within a very short span of time and in places that are not far
25 from each other, especially Bosanski Brod, Bijeljina and Zvornik? Did it
Page 9890
1 have anything to do with the fleeing of Serbs from Zvornik across the
2 river?
3 A. I would say it was a time of great instability, Dr. Karadzic, all
4 the time after the referendum in March.
5 Q. Thank you. Did you have any information that there were numerous
6 Muslim paramilitary formations in Zvornik, the most dangerous among them
7 being the so-called Cobras and the so-called Mosque Mice?
8 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Because of the compound nature of
9 your question, we didn't hear anything about that chain of events from
10 the witness.
11 Mr. Bell, could you confirm those chain of events?
12 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't necessarily -- if you'd call it a chain
13 of events, Your Honour, it suggests that there was some connection
14 between them and some happened because others happened. There were
15 clearly a series of events, but I wasn't at any of them until I arrived
16 in Zvornik, so I'm not really qualified to give useful evidence about
17 them.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Bell.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. Did you receive any information as to who the Serbs were fleeing
21 from in Zvornik, and did you know that there were numerous Muslim
22 paramilitary formations there, the cruelest of them being the Cobras and
23 the Mosque Pigeons?
24 A. This is your information, Dr. Karadzic, not mine. All I was
25 aware of was that the day or two days before the fighting in Zvornik, the
Page 9891
1 Serbs had fled, and obviously they fled in fear.
2 Q. We have evidence, but we will not lead it now, that these groups
3 acted under the supervision of General Karavelic, and one of their tasks
4 was to destroy the bridges over Drina
5 they were about to destroy bridges over the Drina?
6 A. I was unaware of that.
7 Q. We'll come back again to the issue of refugees, and your reports
8 showed refugees on their way. However, in your statement, page 7,
9 paragraph 5, you estimated, quite correctly, I believe, that these people
10 fled before the Serbs won in Zvornik, rather than being driven away by
11 the Serbs?
12 A. There was a pattern of events. The peoples were -- and I'm sure
13 this was not only in Zvornik. People were expecting war. The Serbs
14 fled. Serbian paramilitaries then entered the town, and then Muslims
15 fled.
16 Q. Thank you. What draws my attention here is your estimate that
17 they didn't even wait for the Serbs to arrive, so they were refugees,
18 rather than displaced persons.
19 Your statement is D921, if we can show it on the screen, page 7.
20 Page 7, paragraph 5, in Serbian. Can we see page 7 in Serbian. In
21 English, it's paragraph 1, on April 10, and in Serbian it's paragraph 5.
22 There are two possibilities before us. Either they left before
23 the Serbs came to the town or they left following instructions, like it
24 happened in Trebinje. In any case, they were not driven out; they were
25 refugees:
Page 9892
1 [In English] "It was people pre-empting the Serb arrival."
2 A. I think, Dr. Karadzic, that the video evidence we all saw
3 yesterday suggests that you actually heard the guns firing in the
4 background as they were -- as they were crouched there, having fled. I
5 don't doubt that some of them may have left before the Arkan attack, but
6 others left because of it.
7 Q. [Interpretation] You remember the crisis around Kravica. The BBC
8 reported on it. It was you, perhaps, who reported about the massacre of
9 Serbs on the Orthodox Christmas, 1993?
10 A. I did include it in the "Panorama" report because I thought it
11 significant, and I thought it important to show that the Serbs were
12 victims as well as perpetrators. And in the same spirit, we were
13 successful in having the JNA fly us to Kupres on the 13th of April, 1992
14 and there we attended the burial of some of the Serbs who were killed in
15 that attack by main force Croats.
16 Q. It is our Defence case that in the early days of the war and just
17 before the war, it was mainly Serbs who got killed, from Mostar and the
18 Neretva River Valley
19 and Sijekovac, and the first victims, in fact, were Serbs, which
20 additionally fed their fears. Do you remember what happened on the
21 7th of January, the Orthodox Christmas 1993, in Kravica, when Serbs were
22 celebrating and they were not sufficiently on guard?
23 A. Dr. Karadzic, it was because of that, and because I felt it was
24 important that my audience should know about it, that I included those
25 rather controversial images in the report, controversial simply because
Page 9893
1 they were so raw and vivid. And, indeed, I was criticised for it in some
2 quarters back home.
3 Q. Thank you. You suffered certain pressure even in "The Times"
4 because you were reporting on the suffering of Serbs?
5 A. I was attacked by a columnist in "The Times." He wrote a column
6 drawing attention especially to that sequence from Kravica and accusing
7 me of what he called the pornography of violence. I dismissed this
8 criticism because I think we have, so far as possible, to show what we
9 find and show things as they are. But I was not criticised by my editors
10 for that.
11 Q. Thank you. I can only imagine how younger and less experienced
12 journalists would have succumbed to such pressure and adjusted their
13 writing. Do you agree?
14 A. Well, unfortunately, I'm not young or inexperienced anymore for
15 this job. What you really need is an old head on young shoulders, I'm
16 afraid.
17 Q. Did you know that we ordered restraint from combat activities
18 during Catholic and Muslim holidays, and that I personally enabled the
19 pilgrims to go to Mecca
20 A. If that is so, Dr. Karadzic, it's greatly to your credit.
21 Q. Thank you. We have that evidence, but we don't have time today.
22 May I remind you what happened in March 1993. It's a well-known
23 crisis around Cerska. Do you remember that?
24 A. Yes. We had great difficulty getting access, but we were well
25 aware of the crisis.
Page 9894
1 Q. Is it correct that there was a violent campaign around Cerska,
2 claiming that the Serbs had perpetrated a massacre and that blood was
3 flowing in rivers, and that campaign did not stop until General Morillon
4 went to Cerska?
5 A. This was something I would not have reported, because I wasn't
6 there and wouldn't report on hearsay, except what I was told by the
7 United Nations, especially individuals in the United Nations whom I
8 especially trusted.
9 Q. Thank you. Then again on 13 March, we have a video showing
10 General Morillon arriving in Srebrenica and that he was going to stay
11 there. You remember that?
12 A. Yes, I remember that. It was -- it was one of the -- one of the
13 best-remembered moments of the long war.
14 Q. Thank you. You spent a lot of time in 1993 in Central Bosnia;
15 correct?
16 A. Yes, that is correct.
17 Q. Am I right in saying, regardless of whether that perception is
18 correct, that both Serbs and Croats perceived you as biased, in favour of
19 the Muslims to some extent, so you were attacked by all three sides, as
20 it were?
21 A. I wouldn't have minded if I had been attacked by all three sides.
22 In fact, for much of that year, we operated out of the Lasva Valley
23 which was held by the HVO, and I had good relations with the HVO, and
24 especially their commander, Colonel Blaskic.
25 Q. But regardless of that perception, the Serbs also held you in
Page 9895
1 high esteem and received you gladly; correct?
2 A. That is correct. As I explained yesterday, I had quite a few
3 problems at roadblocks. But especially there, the word they used of me
4 was correct, which meant they thought I was careful with the facts. And
5 I was grateful for that, because one doesn't need to pick up any more
6 enemies than one is going to normally.
7 Q. Thank you. If it were not for time constraints, I would relate
8 an anecdote that in our part of the world, in the Balkans, it is
9 chauvinism when one hates others more than is normal.
10 A. I like that.
11 Q. Do you remember the crisis in Gorazde from the 10th of April,
12 1994, onwards?
13 A. Yes, I do, although I never got further to Gorazde than the
14 Serb-held high ground overlooking it, and it was your daughter who helped
15 to give me that access.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 1D2877.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. If you remember, you communicated with General Rose probably
19 after his return. We see that document now, 36. It's part of your
20 reporting; correct?
21 A. Yes, I believe this was -- this was when General Rose visited
22 Gorazde. It was a very controversial visit. I didn't accompany him, but
23 there was a military cameraman who recorded the event.
24 Q. Do you recall that there were reports about hundreds, even
25 thousands of dead, and that General Rose ordered air-strikes on Serb
Page 9896
1 tanks and Serb positions, and there was a press conference on the
2 12th of April, where he informed that his forces targeted Serb tanks and
3 guns?
4 A. Yes. As I recall, though, there was only one tank that was
5 targeted and hit. It seemed to us to be a token of UN resolve. It
6 certainly wasn't the sort of serious air-strike that occurred later in
7 the war.
8 Q. Yes, there was one tank and one ambulance, and there were
9 incidents of fire against Serb positions. And at that press conference,
10 General Rose said that his soldiers helped the aircraft find their aim.
11 It's in 0029-5578 to -5692, page 1484. And on this page, 1532, on the
12 27th of April, it seems that General Rose was angry to be deceived by the
13 BH Army regarding the scale of damage and destruction in Gorazde?
14 A. Yes, I do remember him coming out, and what he -- and he believed
15 that the BiH forces could have done much more to defend themselves, and
16 what he said was very controversial. In fact, he just about -- if I'd
17 been a soldier, I think he'd have court-martialed me for broadcasting it.
18 We were aware all the time of exaggerated claims of casualties.
19 It was very difficult, Dr. Karadzic, for us in Sarajevo being denied
20 access and being told, usually by radio broadcasts from the enclaves, of
21 the dreadful things that were going on. But it was impossible to confirm
22 them, and I tended to confine myself to what I knew for sure.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be received?
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
Page 9897
1 Exhibit D926. Thank you.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Early in August 1994, after the Contact Group Plan was rejected,
4 you reported on the beginning of complete isolation of Bosnian Serbs. Do
5 you remember that?
6 A. Yes. It was the last time we were able to report from
7 Republika Srpska, actually, so I remember it very well.
8 Q. Then there was a crisis in Sarajevo, with a Muslim offensive and
9 the Serbian seizure of weapons, so we were isolated again?
10 A. I know that you felt very much on your own, but I think you also
11 felt that that was part of your history.
12 And it might be fair to add to that that since, according to my
13 notes here, you rejected the Contact Group Plan on the 27th of August,
14 1994, that isolation was, to some extent, self-imposed.
15 Q. If you remember, President Milosevic imposed sanctions on us on
16 the 4th of August, and I believe that we rejected it on the referendum in
17 late July. Do you remember that on the 4th of August, the complete
18 blockade was imposed on the Drina River
19 end August? Yes, you are right, 27th of August. But the Assembly
20 rejected the plan earlier, and sanctions were imposed on us on the
21 4th of August?
22 A. Yes. But as I remember, there was a referendum, and your people
23 voted on it.
24 Q. Thank you. Just briefly, regarding the visit of the Pope, do you
25 remember there was an attempt to organise the Pope's visit to Sarajevo
Page 9898
1 September 1994, and again we were misrepresented in the media? We had
2 offered that the Pope arrive to Kiseljak by helicopter and continue by
3 land routes, for safety reasons?
4 A. Yes, Dr. Karadzic, I do remember that, and I remember a statement
5 to the effect that if he did come, you would be unable to guarantee his
6 safety. This was widely interpreted in Sarajevo as some kind of a threat
7 by you, which it didn't have to be. It could be a threat by somebody
8 else. But, of course, by then we had no access to you, and I regret if
9 you feel you were misrepresented. If we had been able to talk to you,
10 you could have made your own case.
11 Q. I agree, I agree completely. But you remember that in 1996, the
12 Pope did come for a visit, and the Muslim police prevented a conspiracy
13 to murder him and discovered an explosive device by the road?
14 A. I wasn't there then. But, of course, if that was the case, that
15 was the case.
16 Q. In our interview, you said that you were not completely aware of
17 the military infrastructure in Sarajevo
18 you be surprised if you heard from me that there were a couple of dozen
19 factories producing weapons and ammunition in Sarajevo, itself?
20 A. I would not be surprised to hear that the Bosnian Government Army
21 had some installations. None of them -- I mean, if they were -- if they
22 were hit by your forces, I think we might have known about them. I know
23 that some were alleged to have been in the area of the television
24 station, which was certainly attacked by the modified air-bomb, but, of
25 course, that was a stand-alone building with no factories immediately
Page 9899
1 around it.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 1D2900, could I have that, please.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. You reported about casualties in the waterline by the brewery.
6 Question number 1: Do you know that Mr. Cuny informed the
7 Soros Foundation in New York
8 the repair of waterworks and that some people were carrying out this
9 obstruction, inter alia, near the brewery in Sarajevo?
10 A. No, I was not aware of that, Dr. Karadzic.
11 Q. Thank you. There is some information here from the
12 Military Intelligence Service of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps about
13 locations where military equipment is being manufactured, as well as
14 ammunition. So this is the Mechanical Engineering Faculty, the tobacco
15 factory, the Vase Miskin Crni factory, which is near the TV station, and
16 the Sarajevo
17 Can we scroll down a bit.
18 So the Sarajevo Brewery was a factory manufacturing weapons as
19 well. Although we did not establish who fired at people standing in line
20 for water near the brewery, the brewery was a factory that manufactured
21 weapons. Do you agree? Do you agree that that is what this document
22 says?
23 A. I can only agree it's what this document says. The people who
24 were killed in that queue, so far as I know, were not military; they were
25 civilians.
Page 9900
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree with that, but an
2 investigation would have to be carried out in order to establish who did
3 it. It does not go without saying that it was the Serb side that had
4 committed this, but the brewery was manufacturing weapons, too.
5 Can this document be admitted?
6 JUDGE KWON: I'm wondering if Mr. Bell had commented on this in
7 any sense. We don't have an English translation, either.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But we do have a report about
9 casualties in the line of people waiting for water, and previously we
10 adopted the Cuny report that refers to manipulations with water in the
11 town of Sarajevo
12 that the brewery is a factory that manufactures weapons, actually.
13 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, Mr. Bell can't read the document,
15 knows nothing about the information that Dr. Karadzic put to him, and was
16 only able to state that Dr. Karadzic's reading of the document might have
17 been accurate. I don't think that's sufficient to provide for the
18 admission of this document. And I'm still trying to find where we have
19 admitted anything from Mr. Cuny to the effect that Dr. Karadzic has
20 asserted.
21 JUDGE KWON: Absolutely.
22 Mr. Karadzic, we'll not admit this through Mr. Bell.
23 And time is limited.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Q. You did notice, Mr. Bell, in the autumn of 1994, before the
Page 9901
1 so-called Carter cease-fire, that the Muslim army had taken several
2 hundred square miles or kilometres of Serb territory from Bihac. The
3 offensive was launched from Bihac. Do you remember that?
4 A. I remember the Bihac offensive. It was one of the areas of the
5 country to which we had no access whatever.
6 Q. Well, you do remember that then we launched a counter-offensive
7 and that we regained all of that territory. When we got close to Bihac,
8 then everyone seemed to remember that Bihac was a protected zone, and
9 they bombarded our positions near Bihac because we were attacking a
10 protected zone?
11 A. Yes. The only reports I filed from Bihac were in November --
12 about Bihac were in November of 1994, and my only sources of information
13 were the UNPROFOR spokesmen, and my only sources of video came from
14 Bosnian Serb cameramen, through their television station.
15 Q. Thank you. May I draw your attention to page 15 of your early
16 statement of 1995 and 1996. This includes your observations and
17 assessments regarding developments towards the end of the war. Do you
18 have that?
19 A. I don't have it in front of me. It's not on my screen.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have it called up. The
21 number is D922 -- 921, D921.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. This is the first page, and that is your signature, isn't it?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 9902
1 Can we now have page 15. In the Serbian, it's page 15, and
2 that's fine. However, I don't know whether this would be 15 in English.
3 It should be the same. It is one page before this one in English.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. May I ask you to comment on paragraph 2, and then paragraphs 3
6 and 5? These are your observations towards the end of the war.
7 A. On paragraph 2, Dr. Karadzic, we became aware of -- well, you
8 would know this better than I do -- of certain tensions between the
9 political and the military in Bosnian Serbia, at the senior level. But
10 you would be a better witness to this than I would.
11 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 3. You repeat here that we considered
12 Sarajevo
13 Is that right?
14 A. That's right. I don't think you would dispute that today,
15 either.
16 Q. Could you please take a look at paragraph 5, especially the last
17 sentence. The entire paragraph speaks of your observations and how the
18 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina treated the Serbs?
19 A. Yes, Dr. Karadzic. I think it was a -- I also wrote in my book
20 that I felt that you were, ironically, disadvantaged by your superiority
21 in heavy weapons. The kind of thing that would happen was that the
22 Bosnian Army would launch a small-arms attack in some numbers on a part
23 of the confrontation line. You would reply with your heavy weapons, and
24 in no time at all we'd have Haris Silajdzic on television accusing you of
25 war crimes. That was the way things happened.
Page 9903
1 Q. Thank you. You were aware of the cease-fire that
2 President Carter managed to achieve. The Muslim side insisted on that
3 cease-fire because they ran into difficulties in the area of Bihac;
4 right?
5 A. Yes, I was aware of that cease-fire.
6 Q. Do you remember that it went on for, well, not exactly
7 four months, but it did go on for a while, say until February, with
8 smaller violations or bigger ones?
9 A. Yes, that is so.
10 Q. Thank you. There is a report -- a report about the use of an
11 air-bomb in Hrasnica. You are aware of that incident, aren't you?
12 A. Yes. I was in Sarajevo
13 Q. Do you remember that the 104th or, rather, 4th Mountain Brigade
14 was stationed in Hrasnica? The 4th Motorised Brigade, rather, that had
15 been established by Fikret Prevljak and that had about 4500 fighting men,
16 including an intervention unit?
17 A. I believed that because of its position, there would have been
18 Bosnian Army units in Hrasnica. I didn't have the order of battle, and I
19 didn't know which units they were. I mean, it was a war going on, and
20 Sarajevo
21 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that Hrasnica is not a very big area and
22 that 5.000 soldiers, with headquarters, battalions, companies, logistics
23 bases and other infrastructure, constitutes quite a lot of military
24 targets?
25 A. I don't think I can usefully comment on military details that I
Page 9904
1 didn't know about.
2 Q. Thank you. I think the BBC
3 your cameraman - had this video that had to do with the training of a
4 special police unit in Hrasnica that was headquartered in a school in
5 Hrasnica. Do you remember that?
6 A. I remember doing a report about a military exercise on high
7 ground at the back of the -- of the television station. I thought it
8 most bizarre to have a military exercise in the middle of a real war.
9 But those soldiers were based in a school near the old city.
10 Q. We saw two orders of General Milosevic here about the shelling of
11 Hrasnica, or, rather, the use of an air-bomb, and General Milosevic had
12 this order on the 6th of April, 1995, in which he says that targets
13 should be selected -- actually, that the most profitable targets should
14 be selected, involving the greatest material damage. However, our
15 Defence found an order of this same general to the same person on the
16 4th of April, and in that order General Milosevic specifies, in very
17 concrete terms, what the targets are. And two days later, he only orders
18 the implementation of that.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have D782 now.
20 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Maybe I was a little premature in rising. Perhaps
22 D782 is the document I was about to ask for a reference to.
23 JUDGE KWON: We'll see, Ms. Edgerton.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 782. It's the same commander,
25 Milosevic, issuing an order to the same person on the 4th of April. He
Page 9905
1 lists all the targets, including -- actually, can we have the next page,
2 please. Yes, we need the next page in English as well.
3 All the targets are enumerated, including those in Hrasnica.
4 Then there is the order of the 6th of April, where he says that the
5 center of Hrasnica should be targeted.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Do you believe that this is a chain, that these two orders deal
8 with one-and-the-same thing and that they are one-and-the-same thing
9 altogether? If I may, I would like to draw your attention to the middle
10 part:
11 "Neutralise the activity of enemy artillery and mortars."
12 And then --
13 JUDGE KWON: Just a moment.
14 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, Dr. Karadzic is putting a question to
16 Mr. Bell in specific detail about a document dated 6th of April, 1995,
17 which Mr. Bell
18 asked if that represents a chain. Perhaps Mr. Bell could be shown the
19 other document that Dr. Karadzic alleges is part of that chain.
20 JUDGE KWON: What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My question is whether Mr. Bell
22 agrees that this order, issued two days before the other one, specifies
23 the targets involved. And it says, inter alia, in this line number 2, to
24 prevent the infantry from acting, the enemy infantry, and then:
25 "Neutralise the activity of enemy artillery and mortars."
Page 9906
1 Then corrections with specific equipment.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Do you agree that this is a very specific reference to military
4 objectives, by no means civilian ones?
5 A. The reference is clearly to military objectives. As I remember,
6 the modified air-bomb fell on and destroyed civilian property and caused
7 civilian casualties.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can call this up, but we're
9 wasting time. We can call up this same order of the same general, issued
10 to the same person on the 6th of April.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Do you agree that this shell fell 50 metres away from the school
13 that was the headquarters of that special combat unit, and also that
14 among the rubble, there was a person who was wearing a military uniform?
15 A. I don't know how far from a military unit this bomb fell, but it
16 clearly missed its target.
17 Q. Thank you. If we were to look at how high the building is,
18 believe me, it was only a few centimetres, the miss was no more than
19 that. Thank you.
20 Do you remember that offensives in 1995 were being prepared in
21 mid-April, before the so-called Carter cease-fire was about to end? You
22 spoke about that when you testified on the 27th of April in the
23 General Milosevic case. 5313 and 5314 are the pages.
24 Rasim Delic sent this letter to Izetbegovic, in which he claimed
25 that they had to defend themselves, that they were planning an offensive
Page 9907
1 to break through the siege, and that his army was preparing for that. Do
2 you remember that?
3 A. We were aware at the time that the cease-fire was crumbling, or
4 about to crumble, and that offensives were being prepared, yes.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 1D1073.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. May I draw your attention to this order. It pertains to the
8 12th Division that is based within the city itself, and there is a
9 specific map that accompanies this order.
10 In paragraph 2, we see the division's task:
11 "Carry out an attack from the zone of defence of our division
12 along favourable axes and towards favourable targets, with the task of
13 inflicting on the enemy the greatest loss possible in manpower and
14 MTS ..."
15 Et cetera.
16 This is already the 20th of March, 1995. This is the second part
17 of the period encompassed by the Carter cease-fire. Do you remember
18 that?
19 A. I did not have access to this document, obviously, but we did
20 expect a cease-fire -- an offensive, an attempt to break the siege.
21 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that this particular wording "inflict on
22 the enemy the greatest loss possible in manpower," is identical to the
23 one used by General Milosevic in relation to Hrasnica, that this is
24 customary military language, "inflict the greatest losses possible in
25 manpower," et cetera?
Page 9908
1 A. Yes, that is customary military language.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 3.
3 Page 3, "Support Forces."
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. I would like to ask you to focus on that. Let us see what they
6 have and how they're going to support this offensive. The 3rd Mixed
7 Artillery Division, consisting of six 122-millimetre howitzer batteries,
8 recoilless guns, 105-millimetre howitzer battery, four weapons and a
9 rocket battery comprising three launchers, a tank platoon, and so on,
10 from Mojmilo, Brijesce Brdo, Zmajevac Command Post in the Zica factory.
11 Do you remember that the Zica factory is right next-door to the
12 TV station, it's that industrial complex there?
13 A. Yes, except that the TV station is, itself, a stand-alone
14 building, and if the TV station is hit, I imagine, with the degree of
15 professionalism available, it would be the TV station that was targeted.
16 Q. Well, NATO would not agree. They thought that TV Belgrade was a
17 legitimate target. Remember that?
18 A. I do remember it. And when I was a member of Parliament, I stood
19 up in the House of Commons and strongly objected to the targeting of a
20 television station.
21 JUDGE KWON: Let's come to your question.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Later on, we're going to look at a
23 document. Let us see who fired at the TV station building.
24 Actually, let's have a look at the next page here.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you read out all the lengthy
Page 9909
1 paragraph, and at the end, your question, you just asked whether certain
2 factories are just next-door to the TV station. That's the only question
3 you asked, and then this document is what we already admitted into
4 evidence. You are just simply wasting your time, Mr. Karadzic. We
5 admitted this through Mr. Harland.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not sure.
7 JUDGE KWON: It's Exhibit D182.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. You're right.
9 All right. I just wanted to ask the following.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Do you agree that the command post in Dobrovoljacka number 16 is
12 in the very center of town, that street, Dobrovoljacka?
13 A. I would be surprised if some command posts had not been in the
14 center of the town.
15 Q. If we know that the command posts were in the center of town, in
16 a residential area, would you also agree that mortars and guns and tanks
17 are not being held on the front-line, but are being kept in the city,
18 itself? Would you agree, then, that firing at the city, itself, does not
19 mean that it's a civilian area that is being targeted, but military
20 objectives that are placed within a civilian area?
21 A. I cannot imagine any circumstances in which it would be
22 legitimate for a heavily populated city to become a free-fire zone.
23 Q. But do you agree that also a residential area should not be
24 abused by having one's own guns and mortars placed within it? Would you
25 agree with that?
Page 9910
1 A. I would agree with that, yes.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Can we now have a look at a document from April 1995 that
4 provides a precise order for an offensive that we saw later in May and in
5 June, up until the middle of July. Let us see 1D2839. 1D2839.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Please, remark that it's the 14th of April, 1995. The command of
8 this division gives information about the enemy; that is, the Serbs.
9 Next page, please.
10 And here I will read -- I don't know if we have a translation:
11 "I hereby decide: In co-ordinated action with the units of the
12 14th and 16th Divisions ..."
13 Did you know that the 14th and 16th Divisions, as part of the
14 1st Corps, were located in Tarcin, that is, the Niksic Plateau, on the
15 outer ring around our positions?
16 A. I didn't know the names of the specific units located there, but
17 I was well aware that there were Bosnian Government forces on your outer
18 confrontation line, yes.
19 Q. So he, the commander, decided to defend the inner part of the
20 city, while at the same time, I'm quoting:
21 "... creating conditions for mounting combat actions."
22 Para 5.1 concerns 101st Brigade, and he defines their area of
23 responsibility. It stretches all the way to Alipasino Polje. In depth
24 and in width, its boundaries are defined. One boundary is Debelo Brdo,
25 the railway station, et cetera.
Page 9911
1 Can we see the next page.
2 I won't read much. I would just like to show that the entire
3 city was militarised, as you, yourself, were able to note. Let's just
4 see all these units --
5 JUDGE KWON: Was that your question? Can you answer that
6 question or could you make an observation on that --
7 THE WITNESS: Yes --
8 JUDGE KWON: -- that the entire city was militarised?
9 THE WITNESS: It was a modern industrial city caught in a war.
10 That did not excuse attacks on civilians. I hadn't, of course, any
11 access to any of these documents. But when the offensives occurred,
12 which were in May and again in June, I did report them as attempts to
13 break the siege both from inside and from outside.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Bell.
15 That's what we can hear from the witness.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Q. Do you agree that these brigades existed, 101st and 115th, which
18 had an area of responsibility from the Miljacka River
19 Trebevic and our positions, 152nd, 105th, 111th, 112th, 102nd, 155th,
20 143rd? The last few ones are on the next page. Do you agree that this
21 is a huge force on the relatively small territory of the city of
22 Sarajevo
23 A. Dr. Karadzic, one of the points I was making in my later reports
24 towards the end of the war was that the Bosnian Government forces were
25 able to attack in much greater strength and better equipped, and that the
Page 9912
1 balance of forces was changing. And I think this was true.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted,
3 MFI
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I don't see any basis on which we can
5 admit this document through Mr. Bell.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But Mr. Bell eye-witnessed the
7 firing -- the fire-power of these units inside the city and their
8 offensives that lasted for several months that year.
9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you will have another opportunity to
10 tender this document through another witness.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 May I now call 1D1063.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. You noticed, Mr. Bell, that there was fire and there were periods
15 when there was more outgoing fire than incoming fire into the city. I
16 would just like to show one day's expenditure of large-calibre
17 ammunition.
18 If you look from item 6 down to the bottom, these are rockets,
19 mortar shells, artillery shells, howitzers, Zolja hand-held
20 rocket-launchers and mortars. This division, on that day, 24 May 1995,
21 fired 1.610 explosive projectiles. We're not even counting the rounds
22 that did not explode.
23 Do you agree that this is a significant number and that many of
24 these shells looked or could have looked like Serb shells to the
25 journalists and observers?
Page 9913
1 A. It was clear to me, Dr. Karadzic, when these offensives began,
2 and there was one on the 16th of May, that it was an attempt by the
3 forces inside the city to break out. And I pointed earlier in my
4 testimony there was a war going on, a war between two armed forces on the
5 confrontation lines, so none of this actually surprises me. And having
6 been there, in the middle of it, it's interesting to see how much was
7 fired, but I'm not astonished by it.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bell. You were there. But due to our inability
9 to hold our own in this media war, the impression was created that the
10 attacks were one-sided, that all the explosions were caused by them, and
11 that the Serbs were attacking a defenceless city. Do you agree that that
12 was, indeed, the perception, that this was not a war, that these were
13 just Serb attacks?
14 A. Again, on the 27th of May, Dr. Karadzic, I reported attempts
15 to -- by the Bosnian Government forces to break their encirclement. I
16 did not report that as an attack on civilians. But where they were
17 attacks on civilians, I reported them as attacks on civilians. I tried
18 to be as fair as I could, reporting through the fog of war, which, as you
19 know, is quite difficult.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 May this document be received?
22 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
23 MS. EDGERTON: I just checked back through the transcript, and I
24 actually don't see a single comment from the witness in regard to this
25 document.
Page 9914
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I believe that in the
2 context, the witness confirmed that there was fire and that it was a war.
3 JUDGE KWON: We can take it that he confirmed in a general term.
4 He would not be astonished by this. On that basis, we'll admit that.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
6 Exhibit D927. Thank you.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we briefly display 1D2841,
8 just to take a look at what happened on the 31st of May. 1D2841.
9 This is another telegram, a report by General Karavelic,
10 commander of the 1st Corps. He reports about their expenditure.
11 We can move to the next page. In English, it's page 2 and 3.
12 2.055 explosions, 800 82-millimetre shells, 150 120-millimetre
13 shells, grenades, et cetera.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Do you agree that it was very fierce fire against Serb
16 settlements and Serb positions in Sarajevo?
17 A. It was not always possible to know the sources of the fire. I do
18 remember reflecting at the time this was the most intensive battle I had
19 ever been caught up in in my entire life.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be received?
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE KWON: No, there's no basis to admit this through this
23 witness, Mr. Karadzic. I think it's my third time to recommend you to
24 concentrate on your more relevant and more important issues.
25 The witness gave his opinion as to the consumption of ammunition.
Page 9915
1 There's no need for you to put another document to the witness.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree. That was a document
3 concerning their expenditure of ammunition. But I believe what the
4 witness said, to the effect that it was such fierce fighting as he had
5 never seen before, and he witnessed many wars, is sufficient.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Do you agree that in the General Perisic case, on the
8 4th of February, 2009, on page 23 -- sorry, 3233, you said that
9 General Smith finally assessed the balance of powers, what he has and
10 what the Serbs have, he realised that he can finally press his advantage
11 and use a force that would change everything? Do you remember that?
12 A. I remember that, Dr. Karadzic, but he didn't say that in
13 isolation. As I remember, this was about the time when UN Military
14 Observers were taken prisoner and held hostage.
15 Q. Well, I believe, first of all, then United Nations and NATO got
16 involved in the war. We warned them against it, lest they become a
17 warring party. And do you believe that -- do you remember that UNPROFOR
18 commanders, themselves, asked their own superiors not to turn them into a
19 warring party?
20 A. I do remember discussions to that effect. I also remember it was
21 the only occasion on which General Smith ever gave a press conference,
22 and that was to deliver an ultimatum to your side.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Then can I just say, Your Honours, the
24 page reference 3233 from the Perisic testimony should actually be 3223
25 and 3224.
Page 9916
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm sorry about these
3 pages.
4 Can we see 1D2874.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. We can agree that in May, the offensive is well underway, with a
7 lot of ammunition being expended, as we have seen, and now we will see
8 the reactions of the UN.
9 This is an annex to the sitrep, 29 May 1995. Do you recall that
10 the heavy weapons exclusion zone should have applied to the Muslim side
11 of Sarajevo
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. From the preceding documents, we were able to see that the Muslim
14 side felt quite free to use considerable fire-power against us, without
15 subjecting themselves to air-strikes. And when we, in agreement with the
16 UN, took our own weapons to defend ourselves, air-strikes began. Do you
17 remember those air-strikes in the end of May?
18 A. I do remember those air-strikes.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Can we see page 4, the bottom of page 4.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. It was our understanding that there was co-ordinated action going
23 on, and the Muslim side, themselves, said that they were acting in a
24 co-ordination with the UNPROFOR. And here, the UN writes that the
25 BH Army is taking advantage of Serb preoccupations, with the pressures by
Page 9917
1 the UN and NATO, to make gains and defeat us. Do you remember that at
2 that time, we were bombarded by NATO at the same time as fending off
3 attacks from the BH Army?
4 A. And as I observed before, I felt that the balance of forces was
5 changing to your disadvantage. And I told one of your advisers this two
6 years earlier.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Can we now see one video, where we show that we do not consider
9 armed UN soldiers and gunners as hostages, regardless of the way they are
10 acting, but we consider them as a warring party.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. While we're waiting for this to be played back: Do you remember
13 that General Smith made this decision to use force, taking advantage of
14 the absence of General Janvier, who was away attending a wedding?
15 A. I did actually write about this in my book on the Bosnian war,
16 yes.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We would like 1D2901, a video-clip,
18 and it's recorded as V000-0458-A-1. And we would like to view it --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Could we hear the time again?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We'll play two short video-clips,
21 1:31.57 starts the first one.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 "... that he regards the hostages as prisoners of war. The
24 UN Security Council is meeting now in New York to consider the future of
25 its peacekeeping operation."
Page 9918
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Do you agree that it was our position that these men were not
3 hostages, but prisoners of war, and the basis for that was the
4 involvement not only of General Smith and land forces' forward air
5 controllers and gunners in targeting our positions?
6 A. Dr. Karadzic, I know that you regarded them as prisoners of war.
7 All I would say is it is not usual military practice to chain prisoners
8 of war to military installations.
9 Q. We could debate that. We could debate whether the United Nations
10 unilaterally changed the UNPROFOR's mandate, because you remember that
11 they were present, with our consent, on the condition that their mandate
12 was strictly defined?
13 A. And as I remember, these individuals, one Canadian, one Pole, one
14 Czech, they were all unarmed soldiers anyway.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Can we now see a brief clip from 1:39.35.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Do you agree that the laser pointer used to aim at our artillery
19 tanks and positions is also a weapon?
20 A. If, indeed, these soldiers had -- they were not forward
21 air controllers, to my -- to the best of my knowledge.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now view the clip.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 "Karadzic: ... although we do not consider them hostages, we
25 consider them war prisoners."
Page 9919
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can these two clips be admitted?
2 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
3 Ms. Edgerton, some time ago you raised the lack of transcription.
4 For the benefit of the interpreters and court reporters, it has been our
5 practice to require the parties to produce the transcript in advance, but
6 in case of -- but for the purpose of admission of documents, in
7 particular in the case of some short transcript, do we really need that
8 transcript?
9 MS. EDGERTON: No, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE KWON: And that has been our practice as well.
11 On that basis, we'll admit these clips.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 I believe the interpretation was recorded on transcript, so that
14 might suffice.
15 JUDGE KWON: First we'll give the number, give a number to this
16 clip, and then we'll come to the previous document you haven't tendered,
17 to --
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 JUDGE KWON: Shall we give two numbers to these clips or just one
20 number?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1:31.57 and 1:39.35. It could be
22 the same exhibit, as it's the same topic, same film; just two different
23 clips.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
25 Exhibit D928. Thank you.
Page 9920
1 JUDGE KWON: And are you going to tender the previous document we
2 saw, which was referred to as an annex to a certain document?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, please.
4 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton?
5 We'll admit that. That will be Exhibit D929.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I won't take long. I'm really very
7 grateful for the effort you've invested in this.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. There's just one thing that puzzles me, Mr. Bell, and that is the
10 fact that out of some minor incidents, which were never recorded -- there
11 were minor incidents where cameras never showed up, but there were major
12 incidents we believed were staged, and the cameras were very late in
13 coming, such as the bread queue. In that case, the cameras were there to
14 record the evacuation of the wounded and dead. The cameras were there to
15 record the incident with the water queue, the football-match, the line
16 for humanitarian aid, all the major incidents that were given a lot of
17 coverage in our deep conviction, and we have evidence we will lead, were
18 orchestrated by the BH police and army, more the police than the army.
19 Do you know of a single major incident when the cameras did not
20 happen to be near and came late?
21 A. The area in which the cameras operated for much of the war,
22 Dr. Karadzic, was a fairly small one. I'm 100 per cent convinced, from
23 such of these major incidents that I saw, for instance, Markale II, that
24 they were not and could not have been staged. In fact, I remember
25 reflecting at many times in the war, looking around me at the devastation
Page 9921
1 and the misery, and thinking, No one is ever going to be able to
2 reconstruct this even for the purpose of a movie. That it could have
3 been staged within minutes I find incredible.
4 Q. Maybe I was not clear enough, Mr. Bell. We assert that at
5 Markale I, dead bodies were placed on the scene. On Markale II, they
6 didn't dare do the same things. An explosion did happen there, and real
7 people died, but the explosion was caused by the Muslim side, not the
8 Serb side. In that sense, it was also orchestrated. In Markale I,
9 though, the whole scene was rigged, with dead bodies -- already dead
10 bodies planted there. That's what we're saying. And in Markale I, the
11 explosion was supposed to be caused by a Serb shell.
12 But how is it possible that cameras were not even five minutes
13 late, they were there on the door to record all the bleeding and the
14 suffering? Can you recall one incident when the cameras did not arrive
15 on time?
16 A. There was a -- there was a terrible bombing in Tuzla, in
17 May 1995, in which the cameras certainly didn't arrive immediately. But
18 I just -- I just -- I mean, I'm astonished at the idea that these kind of
19 things can be staged, even if anybody wants to stage them. I don't think
20 it would be remotely possible.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bell. But, yet again, you are applying common
22 sense, which did not apply either in Sarajevo or in this war.
23 Thank you very much for having testified.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.
Page 9922
1 Ms. Edgerton, do you have a lot? Shall we take a break now?
2 MS. EDGERTON: I have -- and I tend to be conservative, so
3 I think I have 30 minutes of redirect, Your Honours. So I would
4 appreciate a break.
5 JUDGE KWON: We'll have a break for half an hour and resume at
6 1.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
10 Before you start your re-examination, Judge Baird has a question
11 for the witness.
12 Questioned by the Court:
13 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Bell, can you assist us in the matter? Now,
14 you were shown a video-clip. I think it was 1D2809, and Dr. Karadzic
15 told you, and I would have to summarise here, that some of the fire was
16 certainly aimed at military facilities, and he imagined that that was
17 fire on all sides, on all sides, my emphasis, and it was mainly aimed at
18 the front-line, itself, military facilities, as could have been seen in
19 the film. And you replied, and again I'm going to summarise, that some
20 of it was certainly aimed at military facilities, and you imagined that
21 the fire we saw in the footage, which you saw every night for
22 four months, was targeted on front-line positions, but also there were
23 snipers and mortars used. Whether or not civilians were targeted,
24 civilians were certainly hit, and to that extent the firing was
25 indiscriminate.
Page 9923
1 Do you recollect this?
2 A. Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE BAIRD: Now, the question I would like to ask and where we
4 would like your assistance, is: Would this indiscriminate firing have
5 been on all sides?
6 A. There certainly was sniping against civilians in Grbavica, which
7 was held by the Serbs. The preponderance of sniping at civilians was
8 done against civilians on the government side of the lines. And a lot of
9 the heavy fire, which I saw for four months, and a vast amount of it, was
10 going in on positions on the Jewish cemetery, which was very front-line.
11 And I think the video which you were shown yesterday, Your Honour, of the
12 sniping against water-carriers in that basement, that was targeted. I
13 mean, they weren't just caught in the cross-fire. That man was shot, and
14 in our -- common sense says quite deliberately.
15 JUDGE BAIRD: Thank you very much for that. Just one last
16 question.
17 Before the break, you were asked a bit of a compound question,
18 actually. Dr. Karadzic told you, and again I must summarise, from the
19 preceding document we were able to see that the Muslim side felt quite
20 free to use considerable fire-power against us, without subjecting
21 themselves to air-strikes. And when we, in agreement with the UN, took
22 our own weapons to defend ourselves, air-strikes began. And then he
23 asked:
24 "Do you remember those air-strikes at the end of May?"
25 And you replied:
Page 9924
1 "I do remember those air-strikes."
2 Now, Mr. Bell, by giving that answer, can we take it that you
3 were agreeing with Dr. Karadzic that the Muslim side felt quite free to
4 use fire-power against the Serbs, without fear of air-strikes, but when
5 the Serbs, in agreement with the UN, took their weapons to defend
6 themselves, they were bombed, or were you restricting yourself simply to
7 the fact of the air-strikes?
8 A. I think it's a fair question, Your Honour, and I would answer it
9 this way: that I think if the -- if the Bosnian Government side had held
10 UN soldiers hostage and, in a sense, kidnapped them, it would have opened
11 itself up to exactly the same sort of reprisals by NATO on behalf of the
12 UN.
13 JUDGE BAIRD: I thank you very much, indeed.
14 JUDGE KWON: And Judge Morrison also has a question for you,
15 Mr. Bell.
16 JUDGE MORRISON: During the period of the time you were in
17 Sarajevo
18 constraints of being in a war zone and taking into account limitations on
19 movement? How much autonomy did you have -- do you feel that you had to
20 go where you wanted, when you wanted, in order to observe that which was
21 of interest?
22 A. The answer is that the longer the war went on, the less autonomy
23 we had, the less freedom of movement. From August 1994, the Serb side
24 was closed off to us completely, and as for the Bosnian Government side,
25 it introduced some severe restrictions in the name of field security, so
Page 9925
1 that we were -- we had very little autonomy in the closing months.
2 JUDGE MORRISON: All right. And as a supplementary question to
3 that: Do you feel that the lack of autonomy that you had at that stage
4 precluded you from taking a view that you might otherwise have been
5 desired to take, in terms of wider reporting?
6 A. I would love to have been able to reported the offensives 'round
7 Tuzla
8 us. We were not allowed to do so. It was particularly difficult to
9 report in an even-handed and impartial way when we had no access to the
10 Serbian side.
11 JUDGE MORRISON: Thank you.
12 And this is an observation by way of a judicial side-road. I
13 hope it's not obscure. It's simply to test my powers of observation.
14 Are you wearing a Royal Suffolk Regiment tie?
15 A. Unfortunately, we were not royal, because there was an
16 unfortunate incident involving a nunnery a couple of centuries ago. But
17 it is indeed the 12th of Foot, sir, yes.
18 JUDGE MORRISON: Thank you.
19 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
21 Re-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
22 Q. Mr. Bell, with regard to your testimony yesterday, among other
23 things, Dr. Karadzic discussed with you the control of Serb forces during
24 the period of time prior to 20 May 1992
25 you in that regard.
Page 9926
1 First, at the transcript page 9807, from line 23, he asked you:
2 "Would you agree that up to 20th May, the date of the pullout of
3 the Yugoslav People's Army, the Territorial Defence was in place, as well
4 as self-organised groups, without any centralised control or command?"
5 And your answer was:
6 "Yes, I would -- I would -- I would agree to that."
7 Do you remember that question and giving that answer?
8 A. Yes. I think I should have amplified that answer.
9 Q. In what regard?
10 A. That the situation was different in different areas; that already
11 in April -- I mean, you've seen the -- you've seen the footage of this
12 today, that those soldiers in place on those positions above Sarajevo
13 were clearly under his control. And it may have applied to areas of the
14 heartland, but as you saw in Zvornik, at the beginning of April that was
15 certainly not the case.
16 Q. Well, indeed, then, my questions -- I'll continue with my
17 questions which relate to the Territorial Defence, which I've just quoted
18 to you, and Zvornik, which we'll come to, hopefully, quite shortly. And
19 I just want to verify one thing.
20 At the time you were working in Bosnia, and you've alluded to
21 this today, were you privy to any internal communications or documents of
22 the Bosnian Serb Territorial Defence, or, in fact, any of the
23 Bosnian Serb organs, their Assembly, their National Defence Council, or
24 the Bosnian Serb Army?
25 A. Certainly, none of the documents I've been shown from the high
Page 9927
1 command on both sides, and, indeed, the United Nations documents, where I
2 was not privy to any of that. I must have attended a couple of meetings
3 of the -- of the Bosnian Serb Assembly. But, no, these -- virtually --
4 all the documents I've seen today, apart from General MacKenzie's book,
5 have been new to me.
6 Q. Then of the documents I'd like to show you today, I understand
7 you have no reason to have seen them before, but I would like to display
8 a couple of documents, and I'd like to know whether you believe they're
9 consistent with this proposition I've just referred you to, that prior to
10 20 May, the Territorial Defence lacked any centralised control or
11 command.
12 And the first document is D304, e-court English page 20. And for
13 the record, I can give you the B/C/S page. That's page 31.
14 Mr. Bell, this is a transcript of the 14th Bosnian Serb Assembly
15 session, held on 27 March 1992
16 in the English version, so you can see what I'm referring to, to the
17 penultimate paragraph that begins where Dr. Karadzic is speaking with the
18 following:
19 "A war in Bosnia
20 will get the plans. But I urge you to immediately organise the people
21 within Territorial Defence units, headed by reserve officers, form
22 squads, platoons and crisis staffs, and engage retired officers. This
23 must be done throughout our areas.
24 "The presidents of municipalities and executive boards will hold
25 the highest ranks in the crisis staffs, in addition to reserve officers."
Page 9928
1 That's the first document I'd like to show you, and that's a
2 speech by Dr. Karadzic or an excerpt from a speech.
3 I'd like now, if I may, to go to Exhibit 325 -- or, pardon me,
4 D325, which is a document of the Main Staff of the Army of the
5 Republika Srpska, entitled "Analysis of the Combat Readiness and
6 Activities of the Army of Republika Srpska in 1992," and it's dated
7 April 1993.
8 MS. EDGERTON: If we could go to page 152 in English and page 132
9 in Serbian.
10 Q. This document, Mr. Bell, has been signed as approved by
11 General Ratko Mladic, and here, at page 152 in English, we see a section
12 entitled "Concluding Remarks" to this report.
13 MS. EDGERTON: And if we could just flip over the page to 153 in
14 English and 133 in Serbian.
15 Q. You can see that the document has been also signed off as
16 approved by the supreme commander of the Armed Forces of
17 Republika Srpska, the accused, Dr. Karadzic. Do you see that?
18 A. I see that.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Now, if we could move over, please, to page 69 in
20 English and page 62 in Serbian.
21 Q. Under the heading "Organisation and Establishment," I'd like to
22 ask you, Mr. Bell, to please read, if you can, the first three paragraphs
23 under this heading beginning: "The organisation of the Army of
24 Republika Srpska is characterised by two periods ...," please.
25 Would you care to read it aloud for us.
Page 9929
1 A. "The organisation of the Army of Republika Srpska is
2 characterised by two periods: the period up to 20 May or 15 June 1992,
3 and the period after 15 June 1992
4 "The first period is significant, in that in the territory of the
5 former Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina up to 19 May, there existed and
6 operated regular units of the former JNA, both those formed in that area
7 during its mobilisation and operational development and those with which
8 the developments in the republics of Slovenia and Croatia
9 from their territories to the territory of the former Republic of Bosnia
10 and Herzegovina
11 Do you wish me to go on?
12 Q. To the end of this third paragraph, please.
13 A. "At the same time, in the territory of Republika Srpska
14 part of the former Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, there were also
15 the units of the Serbian Territorial Defence, formed on the initiative
16 and under the leadership of the Serbian Democratic Party, as a
17 self-organisational form of the Serbian people for defence against the
18 pro-fascist intention of the Ustasha and Muslim organisations and
19 military formations."
20 Q. Thank you. Now, what I would like to ask you, Mr. Bell, is: Are
21 these two, effectively, statements by the accused, and the accused
22 together with his military commander, to your mind, consistent with the
23 assertion which you agreed with, that up to 20 May 1992, the
24 Territorial Defence was in place, quote, "without any centralised control
25 or command"?
Page 9930
1 A. Well, I have modified that answer in answer to your previous
2 question. I don't think it -- I mean, an army was not -- was not formed
3 and organised overnight. I think it would be hard to overstate the
4 degree of chaos and anarchy in the early weeks of April 1992. I mean,
5 what I saw on the ground were bands of armed men on both sides. Very
6 often, there appeared to be -- they appeared to be undisciplined, they
7 were improvised. But I will accept that by early May, there probably was
8 a degree of command and control in some areas, but it was -- you know,
9 armies are not formed and organised overnight, not even in time of war,
10 I'd say almost especially not in time of war, because of the difficulties
11 of communication, among other things.
12 Q. Now, you mentioned, when I began this redirect examination,
13 Zvornik, and I'd like to turn, actually -- if I could have the transcript
14 back on the screen, please -- turn more specifically to the control and
15 knowledge of events in Eastern Bosnia, which was something which you also
16 discussed yesterday with Dr. Karadzic. And that appears on -- in
17 yesterday's transcript at line 9808, starting at line 25. And there,
18 Dr. Karadzic asked you:
19 "Do you agree that all the way up to 20th May or later, there
20 were not enough opportunities to gain insight, let alone control over the
21 developments on the ground, I mean, primarily the events in Zvornik? Is
22 it true that we were hardly able to find out what was going on, let alone
23 control it?"
24 And you answered:
25 "Dr. Karadzic, those were the very early days. There was no
Page 9931
1 Bosnian Serb Army in existence at that time."
2 And you went on to note that it was part of the anarchy of the
3 early days of the war.
4 Now, as we've just done, I'd like to show you several documents.
5 And I would presume these are documents you haven't seen or had reason to
6 see, but I want to see if you believe them as previously to be consistent
7 with Dr. Karadzic's assertion that he did not control or know about
8 events in Zvornik, and your agreement that these took place in a time of
9 anarchy.
10 MS. EDGERTON: The first document is P961, and that is a
11 transcript of the 12th Session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly, dated 24
12 March 1992. And I'd like, please, to see e-court page 21 in English and,
13 I think, page 38 in B/C/S, which -- your indulgence for a moment -- where
14 you can see, at the bottom of the page on the English version, the very
15 bottom of the page, and one-third of the way down the page in Serbian,
16 that this is where Dr. Karadzic begins speaking. This is an excerpt from
17 a speech by Dr. Karadzic.
18 If we could turn the page over in English, please.
19 Your indulgence for a moment.
20 Q. In the English, Mr. Bell, the fourth complete -- fourth full
21 paragraph is where I would like to direct your attention. There, you see
22 Dr. Karadzic say:
23 "At a desired moment, and this will be very soon, we can form
24 whatever we want. There are reasons why this could happen in two or
25 three days, such are the forecasts, but I cannot tell you the reasons
Page 9932
1 now. At that moment, all the Serbian municipalities, both the old ones
2 and the newly established ones, would literally assume control of the
3 entire territory of the municipality concerned. The Zvornik municipality
4 takes control over everything that constitutes the Serbian municipality
5 of Zvornik. Then, at a given moment, in the next three or four days,
6 there will be a single method used, and you will be able to apply it in
7 the municipalities you represent, including both things that must be done
8 as well as how to do them; how to separate the police force, take the
9 resources that belong to the Serbian people, and take command."
10 Now, before we go on to the next document, Mr. Bell, do you
11 recall, in your testimony yesterday, in your report from Zvornik on
12 7 April, about two weeks after the date of this speech, you stated:
13 "The police force is split and front-lines are being established,
14 just as they were in Croatia
15 A. Yes, that's what I said.
16 Q. Thank you. We'll move on to the next document, then. It's --
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I? May I say THAT it would be
18 fair to the witness to tell him this is within the context of the
19 conference where we were given the right to establish a police force and
20 national guards. Otherwise, the witness is going to be misled. He did
21 not read transcripts from our Assembly sessions. This is after the
22 18th of March, when Cutileiro made us an offer; namely, that constituent
23 units would have their own police force and national guards,
24 respectively.
25 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
Page 9933
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.
3 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
4 MS. EDGERTON: May I continue, please?
5 JUDGE KWON: Please.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Can I continue? Thank you.
7 The next document bears the 65 ter number 00661. That's a
8 document from the Republic of the Serbian People of Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina
10 the Crisis Staff, Branko Grujic.
11 Q. It's just a couple of days before the report you talked about.
12 You see it orders, among other things, the implementation, at point 1, of
13 the trial mobilisation of all units of the Territorial Defence of the
14 Serbian municipality of Zvornik
15 A. Yes, I see that.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
17 If we could go on to the next document, 65 ter 00654, e-court
18 page 20 in English, and 17 in B/C/S.
19 This is an RS MUP report, Ministry of the Interior report, on the
20 work of the Zvornik Public Security Centre for the year 1992, and it was
21 written in January 1993.
22 Your indulgence for a moment.
23 THE WITNESS: I am having difficulty reading that one, the
24 writing is so small.
25 MS. EDGERTON: I wonder if there would be an objection from
Page 9934
1 Dr. Karadzic if we collapsed the Serbian version so that we could expand
2 the English version.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, let's do that for this document.
4 THE WITNESS: That's better.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
6 The first page, first paragraph here, notes that:
7 "As of early January 1992, a group of six SJB employees was in
8 permanent contact with the Steering Committee of the Serbian Democratic
9 Party. The aim was to prepare the detaching of the SJB in the event of
10 the municipal territory being divided into a Serb and a Muslim part."
11 Could we now please go to e-court page 21 in English?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am afraid that taking sentences
13 out of an entire text is unfair on the witness yet again. How can a
14 witness give comments regarding police documents without --
15 JUDGE KWON: Let's see how Mr. Bell can deal with this, and then,
16 if necessary, I will hear from you again.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
18 At the bottom of this page, point B, it's just the first
19 paragraph up from the bottom, you see the notation that:
20 "On 4 April 1992, the chief and assistant chief of the SJB
21 (Serbs) went to a meeting of the Crisis Staff in Ugljevik in order to
22 make arrangements for further activities."
23 And then, finally, if we could go over to page 22 in English.
24 Thank you.
25 The third paragraph, we see -- from the top, we see the notation
Page 9935
1 reading:
2 "SJB personnel acting together with forces of the Serb
3 TO/Territorial Defence entered Zvornik and took hold of the town's
4 facilities on 8 April 1992
5 And I'd like to move to one further and final document on this
6 point. That's P956. It's a transcript from the 16th Session of the
7 Bosnian Serb Assembly on 12 May 1992
8 Serbian, another -- and if we -- at page 3, we can see, at the bottom of
9 the page, that this reflects a point at which Dr. Karadzic is speaking.
10 So this is an excerpt from a speech by Dr. Karadzic.
11 And if we can go over to e-court page 8 in English and page 7 in
12 B/C/S, where we see Karadzic's speech continuing.
13 At the bottom of that very large paragraph -- and if you can just
14 indulge me for a moment. Eleven lines up from the bottom, we see the
15 following. Dr. Karadzic says:
16 "I must say that we're doing quite well. Considering the forces
17 that we had at our disposal, we hold the positions we had rather well.
18 We hold all our areas, all the municipalities, all the settlements around
19 Sarajevo
20 enemies in complete encirclement, so that they cannot receive military
21 assistance either in manpower or weapons. True, there are war conflicts
22 here and there. In Doboj, they lasted a short time and ended
23 successfully for the Serbian side. Along the Drina, they ended
24 successfully in Foca, Zvornik, and Visegrad."
25 Q. Now, my question for you, Mr. Bell, in respect of these four
Page 9936
1 documents, is whether you have, having listened to me and seeing the
2 extracts from these documents, any further observations about
3 Dr. Karadzic's assertion that he had no insight or control over events
4 in, for example, Zvornik.
5 A. Ms. Edgerton, I've been struck, since I started giving evidence
6 yesterday, by the discrepancy between some of the documents on both sides
7 and what was actually happening on the ground. And, of course, I did not
8 have the access to the documents, but I did have access to what was
9 happening on the ground, and I would have been surprised if there had not
10 been contingency plans and plans for mobilisation laid in March, when war
11 was certainly predictable. I think the question is: How effective were
12 these mobilisations in occurring? How much control did both sides
13 actually have?
14 As you know, I went through Zvornik on the 7th, when it had not
15 been taken over by the Serbs, and I got back there either the 9th or the
16 10th. I think if everything had gone according to plan with the
17 municipality authorities taking over, I can't see that there would have
18 been the need for Mr. Arkan and his volunteers. They got in there --
19 they got in there somehow. And as far as I'm pretty sure, they were
20 never very popular with Dr. Karadzic or, for that matter, the JNA.
21 So my broad answer is: I find these documents absolutely
22 fascinating. I wish I'd known about them at the time, but I'm not sure
23 they take sufficient account of the fog of war.
24 Q. And moving on to the final area, and this derives from your
25 testimony earlier today, Dr. Karadzic asked you again about events in
Page 9937
1 Zvornik, and you said at page 37, lines 2 to 5, that:
2 "There was a pattern of events. The peoples were -- and I'm sure
3 this was not only in Zvornik. People were expecting war. The Serbs
4 fled. Serbian paramilitaries then entered the town, and then Muslims
5 fled."
6 Do you remember that?
7 A. Yes.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Could I then, please, have 65 ter 04199.
9 This is an order dated 28 May 1992, issued to the Zvornik
10 Territorial Defence Staff by one Svetozar Andric, commander of the
11 Birac Brigade, and it's issued pursuant to an order on the organisation
12 of defence, dated 15 May 1992
13 Q. Could I ask you to have a look at item 6. That reads:
14 "The moving out of the Muslim population must be organised and
15 co-ordinated with the municipalities through which the moving is carried
16 out. Only women and children can move out, while men fit for military
17 service are to be placed in camps for exchange."
18 Now, Mr. Bell, I understand you, as you've just indicated, would
19 have had no reason to see documents like this at the time you formed your
20 views about the situation and events in Eastern Bosnia, but in light of
21 this, do you have any further observations about who was responsible for
22 the Muslims fleeing from Zvornik in the early part of the conflict?
23 A. I can only go on the impressions I had at the time. As you will
24 have seen from the video, I was in the company of large numbers of
25 refugees, hundreds, even thousands, in the course of the day. They were
Page 9938
1 all -- the story was they were all fleeing from brutality and from war.
2 None of them made the allegation that they'd been -- that this was ethnic
3 cleansing, in the sense that the Serbs were moving them out. I'm
4 surprised that any remained. We don't know what numbers they're talking
5 about in this document.
6 But the sight of those women trembling with fear, when you would
7 hear the guns in the background, they were -- they were refugees, not
8 what the UN calls displaced people. I mean, this is just what I felt at
9 the time, and I -- and none of these documents changes my view.
10 MS. EDGERTON: I'd like to go to one final document, again
11 part -- or an extract from an Assembly session. This one comes from the
12 53rd Republika Srpska Assembly session from 28 August 1995, and it's
13 P00988. And if we could please go to page 69 in English, the top of
14 page 69. This is another extract from a speech by Dr. Karadzic at this
15 Assembly.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope the Defence will be given an
17 opportunity to have a say.
18 JUDGE KWON: On what, Mr. Karadzic, in general terms? In
19 previous documents or --
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This entire part of redirect on
21 documents that were not shown in full and taken out of context.
22 JUDGE KWON: I said I would hear from you at the end of
23 re-examination.
24 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
Page 9939
1 Actually, if you could go, Mr. Registrar, to page 68, at the very
2 bottom of the page. I can see that I've missed a small portion. Very
3 bottom of the page, please. Thank you.
4 Q. This, as I said, is another extract of a speech from
5 Dr. Karadzic, and the very last line of page 68 reads:
6 "To tell the truth, there are towns that we've grabbed for
7 ourselves ..."
8 And if we could go over to page 69.
9 "... there are towns that we've grabbed for ourselves, and there
10 were only 30 per cent of us. I can name as many of those as you want,
11 but we cannot give up the towns where we made up 70 per cent. Don't let
12 this get around, but remember how many of us were in Bratunac, how many
13 in Srebrenica, how many in Visegrad, how many in Rogatica, how many in
14 Vlasenica, in Zvornik, et cetera. Due to strategic importance, they had
15 to become ours, and no one is practically questioning it anymore."
16 Now, Mr. Bell, Dr. Karadzic notes here that Zvornik and other
17 places in Eastern Bosnia were taken because of strategic importance, even
18 though they were only, as he says, "30 per cent of us," and I wonder if
19 this leads you to any further observations regarding the assertion he put
20 to you in your cross-examination, that he had no knowledge or control of
21 events in Zvornik and Eastern Bosnia.
22 A. I don't think that in this speech, and I wish I'd known about
23 this speech some years ago -- when he says "we took," we were talking
24 about command and control when this redirect began, and Serbs did seize
25 places for themselves. And I've -- I've -- it's been quite clear to me,
Page 9940
1 even at the time, that in many of the places they took, they were
2 actually a minority, but they were a better armed and better organised
3 minority. So I don't think it really goes to the issue of command and
4 control, but it -- but it's certainly politically very illuminating, that
5 they -- that they took these places for themselves, and I always thought
6 that they had. I mean, it's just the -- it actually doesn't surprise me
7 at all.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
9 Nothing further, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
11 I'm not quite sure, given his answers, you need to address the
12 Chamber, but I will hear from you, Mr. Karadzic.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I only wanted to say that the
14 speech before the Assembly concerning the national guard and the police
15 force derived from the offer of the European Union that our constituent
16 unit may have a national guard, and I was saying that we need not
17 establish it at once, it can wait. This witness did not know about the
18 details of the conference on the 18th of March, and I believe you were
19 not even in Sarajevo
20 And, two --
21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
22 Do you wish to put questions, specific questions, in relation to
23 the documents shown to the witness?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
25 JUDGE KWON: What documents are you referring to?
Page 9941
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, for instance, the one we are
2 looking at now. Do you accept --
3 JUDGE KWON: No. This document only, or what else document
4 you're going to raise?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I would like to put questions
6 on two or three documents. But while this one is on the screen, I'd like
7 to ask the witness if he knows the context in which this was being said.
8 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll allow you to ask some questions in
11 relation to these documents in order to get some context of it; nothing
12 further, Mr. Karadzic.
13 Further cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
14 Q. [Interpretation] First of all, regarding this speech, do you
15 agree that this is a political speech before the Assembly, the
16 Parliament, aimed at justifying the loss of Grahovo and Glamoc, a loss
17 that happened and which you observed? At that time, Glamoc, Grahovo and
18 other Serb municipalities, such as Drvar, were lost, and we had to
19 justify it somehow, to make this political speech, to make the
20 Assemblymen swallow, as it were, more easily the loss of Serb
21 municipalities?
22 A. Dr. Karadzic, as soon as I read this, I understood immediately
23 the context of the loss of Grahovo and Glamoc, and I remember you making
24 public statements at the time that, We must not lose any more
25 municipalities. So, yes, it's -- it is a -- it's a political speech.
Page 9942
1 Q. The issue of organised moving out, of which Colonel Andric writes
2 on the 28th of May, do you know that our representatives signed, on the
3 22nd May, with the mediation of the High Commissioner for Refugees,
4 Ms. Sadako Ogata, and made a commitment to provide organised escort for
5 civilians who wished to leave certain territories to escape combat? If
6 you knew that, would you read this document differently?
7 A. I would conclude from my experience, Dr. Karadzic, that there is
8 a sort of grey area between forcing people out of their homes and
9 providing them escorts if they wish to leave. It is possible to contract
10 situations in which they -- they wouldn't wish -- they wouldn't wish to
11 stay. And I'm not talking just about this conflict, but about many
12 others.
13 Q. Thank you. Concerning the territorial defence of municipalities,
14 do you recall that the Law on Territorial Defence in Municipalities
15 vested in the president of the municipality command and control over
16 territorial units on his territory, and that every municipality had its
17 own territorial defence unit, and the president of municipality was the
18 president of the National Defence Council?
19 A. Yes, I did understand that to be the case.
20 Q. Thank you. Did you notice that Branko Grujic was calling for the
21 general mobilisation of the Territorial Defence in Zvornik municipality
22 on the 5th of April, while Alija Izetbegovic had declared general
23 mobilisation in Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 4th of April; that is to say,
24 the day before? You were in Kupres, but this was a very well-known
25 declaration by Alija Izetbegovic.
Page 9943
1 A. Yes, all this happened -- I was not actually in Bosnia
2 3rd or the 4th. I arrived on the 5th or the 6th.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 No further questions.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Nothing further.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
7 Then it concludes your evidence, Mr. Bell. On behalf of the
8 Chamber and the Tribunal, I would like to thank you for your coming to
9 The Hague
10 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours. It has been a most
11 illuminating experience.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
13 Have a nice trip back home.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, you've seen a great deal of me in
16 the last two weeks, but with your permission, I'd like to take my leave
17 now. And I wonder if we could just have a few minutes for Ms. Sutherland
18 to take over my chair.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
20 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
21 I also would like to have a few minutes to address some problems
22 with respect to the next witness, concerning the scope and timing of his
23 testimony. So maybe if -- I don't know if they're able to move around
24 while I'm speaking, or else we could take a break either before or after,
25 but I'd like to be heard before the witness comes into the courtroom.
Page 9944
1 JUDGE KWON: Do you mind hearing from him now, Ms. Sutherland?
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'd prefer just to move first so
3 that I can focus on what he's going to say properly.
4 JUDGE KWON: Okay. We'll have a five minutes' break.
5 --- Break taken at 1.50 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 1.58 p.m.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
8 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Mr. President, the object of this intervention is to ask that the
10 testimony of this next witness with respect to events in the area of
11 Velesici be excluded or limited.
12 And just to give you a brief history: This is a witness who was
13 added to the Prosecution's witness list on motion and by decision of
14 18 May 2010
15 he would be testifying only as to the Markale incident and the finding of
16 the prosthesis of his father. Then -- that was on the 18th of May, 2010
17 It wasn't until the 12th of November, 2010, when the 92 ter
18 package was filed, that there was a statement in the summary that the
19 witness will also testify to the shelling of the settlement of Velesici.
20 So that was not part of the grounds for which this witness was allowed to
21 have his -- give his testimony or to be added to the witness list. Up
22 until that point, the only information that had been provided about
23 Velesici was paragraph 13 of the witness's statement, which said:
24 "Our family home was in the settlement of Velesici and which was
25 shelled repeatedly. The famous intercept with Ratko Mladic, he orders
Page 9945
1 the settlement to be shelled. Our family home suffered damage as a
2 result of this."
3 Up until yesterday, that was the only information we had about
4 what this witness knew or possibly could testify to.
5 Yesterday, we also -- we received last night, actually, and I
6 don't believe Dr. Karadzic received that until this morning, a
7 four-page witness statement in which the witness elaborated, once again,
8 on his evidence about Velesici. He talks about damage to a relay
9 antenna, the ethnic composition of the area, and military objects within
10 that area, and we don't feel that we've had enough notice to be able to
11 adequately cross-examine the witness on this topic. And we also think
12 it's outside of the scope for which the witness was added.
13 And we would ask that, number 1, the Court exclude any testimony
14 with respect to Velesici, or if it does allow any testimony, that it be
15 limited to what was in his statement, which was what we had in our
16 possession up until last night.
17 Thank you.
18 JUDGE KWON: Could I hear from you, Ms. Sutherland?
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, first of all.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. No, Your Honour, it's incorrect for
22 Mr. Robinson to say that the first that they heard about it was the
23 notification filed on the 12th of November. As Your Honours know,
24 attached to the motion to add the witness was an Appendix A, which gave a
25 Rule 65 ter summary of what the witness would testify about, and in that
Page 9946
1 65 ter summary, it was stated that he would give evidence about the
2 shelling in Velesici, which was relevant to
3 Scheduled Shelling Incident G1.
4 When Your Honours gave the decision, your ruling, to allow this
5 witness to testify, you clearly had the appendix before you, and you
6 didn't limit the witness's evidence in any way.
7 In the 92 ter notification, which we filed on the
8 12th of November, again we summarised the witness's evidence in the
9 65 ter filing and also added, as an exhibit -- an associated exhibit, the
10 Mladic intercept, and I think it's a bit late in the day to come,
11 four weeks later, with this objection. They could have -- Mr. Robinson
12 or the accused could have filed something well before now in relation to
13 this.
14 In respect of the testimony that Mr. Robinson refers to, it's
15 three paragraphs in the witness's statement that I took yesterday. As
16 you know, he was -- or you may not know. He was due to travel on Sunday,
17 but was snowed in, and didn't arrive until late on Monday evening at
18 around midnight
19 was put off until sometime yesterday afternoon, after which the statement
20 was taken.
21 The three paragraphs, as Mr. Robinson says, talk about the
22 ethnicity of the settlement where he comes from and the shelling, which
23 is detailed, which elaborates on what is contained in paragraph 13 of the
24 witness's original statement.
25 It's my submission that I shouldn't be estopped from asking
Page 9947
1 questions in relation to the shelling of Velesici, nor in relation to the
2 ethnic composition of the settlement. It's clear, from the witness's
3 statement, that he comes from that settlement. It's in paragraphs 3,
4 I think, and 13. That's not new. Perhaps the only sentence which the
5 Defence haven't had notice of is in relation to the relay antenna on top
6 of the Hum, which is one sentence out of three paragraphs.
7 And I submit they're not prejudiced by that information, which
8 was provided to them last night.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE KWON: When allowing a certain witness to be added to the
12 65 ter witnesses list, the Chamber usually does not limit the content of
13 the evidence, but, furthermore, more than that, given the notice given by
14 the OTP, the Chamber does not find it appropriate to limit the
15 examination-in-chief to a certain area. But considering the lateness of
16 the disclosure, in particular what is disclosed this morning, the Chamber
17 is minded to order the Prosecution to lead evidence live as regards those
18 parts going to - I beg my pronunciation - Velesici, not relying on the
19 65 ter statement, so that it will be easier for the Defence to follow the
20 evidence and to cross-examine the witness.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 So when I call up the 65 ter number, which will be 20302 [sic],
23 I think, it's redacting paragraphs 18 to 20 and leading that evidence
24 live.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
Page 9948
1 Let's bring in the witness.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I said or it's in the transcript
3 "20302." I meant to say 90203, and that is the 65 ter number which
4 contains both statements, which Your Honours will become aware of
5 shortly.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
7 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
8 MR. ROBINSON: Yes.
9 Mr. President, we would object to the using of the statement
10 taken last night as an exhibit. We're supposed to be given 48 hours'
11 notice, for one thing, of Rule 92 ter. It's understandable that they
12 would have some additional questions when a witness corrects his
13 statement, but I don't think that that should be admitted.
14 JUDGE KWON: I take it to be a correction. And if we are hearing
15 any evidence in relation to Velesici live, I don't think there would be
16 serious opposition on the part of the Defence.
17 MR. ROBINSON: I think, as a matter of practice, the whole
18 statement ought to be -- the contents of the whole statement ought to be
19 taken live. When we receive it on the morning of the witness's
20 appearance, I don't think that that's a good -- that's fair, to have
21 something exhibited when it's just been given to us the same morning. If
22 they want to lead any corrections, they should have to do the whole thing
23 live, in my opinion. Thank you.
24 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber agrees with you.
25 [The witness entered court]
Page 9949
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Mr. Begic, good afternoon.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
3 JUDGE KWON: If you could take the solemn declaration, please.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 WITNESS: ALMIR BEGIC
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
9 Please be seated. Make yourself comfortable.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 JUDGE KWON: I take it, Ms. Sutherland, you understood what I
12 meant.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
14 Just to be clear, then, the corrections and the clarifications to
15 the statement, you want me to lead the whole thing, which will take quite
16 some additional time.
17 JUDGE KWON: Sure.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: So I just want to let you know that.
19 Examination by Ms. Sutherland:
20 Q. Good afternoon. Could you state your full name for the record?
21 A. Almir Begic.
22 Q. Mr. Begic, do you recall giving a statement to a representative
23 of the Office of the Prosecutor for this Tribunal earlier this year?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have 65 ter 90203, please.
Page 9950
1 Q. Mr. Begic, do you recognise that statement?
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could scroll to the bottom of the
3 statement.
4 Q. Is that your statement -- signature at the bottom of the
5 statement?
6 A. Yes, it's my signature.
7 Q. You reviewed this statement yesterday; that is, the statement was
8 read to you. And you wanted to make a number of corrections and
9 clarifications; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 Q. And an additional short statement was taken from you, setting out
12 those corrections and clarifications, was it not?
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. I'm going to lead you through all of those corrections and
15 clarifications, so if you can bear with me.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: But if I can go through this statement now, to
17 the second page, and the third, and then the fourth page, down on the
18 bottom. Okay.
19 And that's the extent of that statement, that four pages. If we
20 can go back to the beginning, please.
21 Q. Mr. Begic, one of the corrections was to the actual date of the
22 interview on the cover page. It says the "15th of March, 2010." When
23 you reviewed this statement yesterday, you could see that you had signed
24 the statement and dated it the 15th of April, 2010, is that correct, and,
25 therefore, you wanted to correct the date of the interview on this front
Page 9951
1 cover?
2 Mr. Begic, you need to actually state your answer for the record.
3 Is that correct?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Also, the way that your father's name has been spelled throughout
6 the statement, there are some differences in some of the places
7 throughout the statement, using the wrong diacritic on the first letter
8 of his name. His name is spelled with a C-a-m-i-l, with a diacritic "ch"
9 on the C; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. In paragraph 2, the word "Jablanica" is spelled incorrectly. You
12 wanted to correct the spelling of that. The correct spelling is
13 J-a-b-l-a-n-i-c-a, is it not?
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 Q. The sentence which states:
16 "In 1961," and this is in paragraph 2 of the statement, "he was
17 late for work, at" should read "as he was trying to catch a train and
18 trying to catch the back of the train, he fell. And as his foot was
19 caught and severed his right foot at the ankle ..."
20 You wish to replace those two sentences with:
21 "In 1961, he was trying to catch a train when he got his foot
22 caught in a part of the train. As a result, he immediately lost some
23 toes. His foot was later amputated in the hospital."
24 Is that right?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
Page 9952
1 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
2 Mr. Begic, do you understand English?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm sorry.
4 JUDGE KWON: Could you kindly take off your headphones for a
5 moment. Thank you.
6 Until I heard your objection, Mr. Robinson, I didn't read, in
7 full, the recent additional witness statement. But having heard these
8 corrections, do we really need to hear them live? Has it not been our
9 practice to allow some corrections to be made and to be tendered
10 through -- whether it's a proofing note for the statement, to be tendered
11 and admitted?
12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
13 I wasn't actually having in mind spelling mistakes. I thought,
14 with respect to the substantive corrections that he made, that they would
15 go through that --
16 JUDGE KWON: Could you identify substantive corrections that
17 should be led live, in your opinion?
18 MR. ROBINSON: I think at paragraph 16, paragraph 17,
19 paragraph 13, paragraphs 18 through 20, and I think also paragraphs 9 and
20 10, also paragraph 7. That's the substantive material that I had in
21 mind.
22 JUDGE KWON: So 7, 9, 10, 13, 16 to 20?
23 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. But if you disagree, then I will defer to
24 you, but that's more what I had in mind than correcting spelling
25 mistakes.
Page 9953
1 JUDGE KWON: We don't have time to go through it. So otherwise,
2 you're happy to admit it?
3 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE KWON: Let's follow that suggestion, Ms. Sutherland.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: So to be clear, Your Honours, the statement that
6 was taken yesterday will be admitted, except for the paragraphs that
7 Mr. Robinson has just read out?
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, yes.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: So if we could turn to page 6 of 95 ter --
10 92 ter 90203.
11 JUDGE KWON: So the witness needs to take his headphone again,
12 but I don't know how to say it to him.
13 Mr. Begic -- we have body language. Thank you, Mr. Begic, for
14 your understanding.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND:
16 Q. Mr. Begic, do you see in front of you, on the screen, the
17 statement that was taken from you yesterday? Do you see your signature
18 and yesterday's date there on the first page?
19 A. Yes.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could go through the statement, page 2,
21 and page 3, and following. Page 4. Page 5. I think page 6 simply has
22 the interpreter's certification on it.
23 Q. Mr. Begic, I'm now going to have to lead you through a number of
24 these clarifications and corrections that you wanted to make.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: So this statement is not coming into evidence in
Page 9954
1 its entirety, but with the clarifications, so, Your Honour, I think I
2 will leave until the end to admit the statements.
3 JUDGE KWON: Let's do that, yes.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: With Your Honour's leave, I will read out a
5 short summary of the witness's evidence.
6 The witness is a resident of Sarajevo -- and this is,
7 Your Honour, on the presumption that the first statement is going to be
8 tendered into evidence.
9 The witness is a resident of Sarajevo and the son of a victim,
10 Camil Begic, who died as a result of injuries suffered in the
11 Markale market shelling --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you for reading slowly.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: -- on 5th February 1994, which is
14 Scheduled Shelling Incident G8. The witness's father wore the prosthetic
15 leg shown in the video played by the accused during his opening statement
16 on 1 March 2010
17 witness will describe his search for his father after the explosion and
18 the recovery of his father's prosthetic leg. He will also provide
19 evidence of other victims of the Scheduled Shelling Incident G8.
20 Mr. Begic will also testify to the shelling of the settlement of
21 Velesici from May 1992, which is part of Scheduled Shelling Incident G1.
22 Q. Mr. Begic, I want to ask you some questions in relation to
23 Velesici.
24 In paragraph 13 of your April 2010 statement, you state that your
25 family home was in the settlement of Velesici and that it was damaged as
Page 9955
1 a result of shelling.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if I could just call up 65 ter 13567, which
3 is a map of Sarajevo
4 focus on the top right-hand side of the map.
5 Q. Mr. Begic, are you able to locate for the Judges the settlement
6 of Velesici on this map?
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if we could zoom in a little bit more.
8 Q. If you could describe for the Judges any landmarks that it's
9 near, that would be helpful.
10 A. It's not very legible, this map.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can we zoom in a little bit further, please,
12 closer.
13 JUDGE KWON: Shall we zoom in further, Mr. Begic? We can do
14 that.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's fine, it's fine.
16 JUDGE KWON: Okay.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My neighbourhood is roughly --
18 JUDGE KWON: Could you wait until the Usher comes to you to
19 assist you. Yes.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right, I see it. This is my
21 neighbourhood [marks].
22 MS. SUTHERLAND:
23 Q. And can you -- thank you very much. So you're pointing to -- or
24 you just circled the settlement of Velesici on the map, which is just to
25 the left of the Kosevo Stadium; is that correct?
Page 9956
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. I've finished with that map.
3 Your Honour, I don't intend to tender the map. I just wanted to
4 locate it for Your Honours.
5 Q. Mr. Begic, can you describe the settlement, how the settlement
6 was composed, the ethnic composition?
7 A. I think that 60 per cent of the population was Muslim and 30 to
8 40 per cent were Serbs or, rather, all the rest.
9 Q. When do you recall the shelling of Velesici beginning?
10 A. I think it was as soon as the war started. I think it could have
11 been May.
12 Q. 1992?
13 A. Yes, 1992.
14 Q. Can you describe the damage to the buildings?
15 A. Well, most of the houses in the settlement were damaged. Some
16 were hit directly and others were damaged by shrapnel. For example, my
17 house was not hit directly by a shell, but it was damaged by shrapnel.
18 Q. What was the intensity of the shelling?
19 A. Very high.
20 Q. What sort of buildings were damaged during the shelling?
21 A. The settlement of Velesici consists of private homes, for the
22 most part. There are some public buildings as well, but most of them are
23 private houses.
24 Q. In paragraph 13 of your statement, you refer to the famous
25 intercept of Ratko Mladic.
Page 9957
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could play, please, 65 ter 301 -- 30810,
2 please, which is Exhibit P01518. If we could have the transcript of that
3 exhibit number on the screen, please.
4 Q. Mr. Begic, can you see the transcript of a document on the
5 screen? Can you review that document?
6 A. Yes, I see it, and I can review it.
7 I have reviewed it.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Go to page 2 of the B/C/S, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND:
11 Q. Is this consistent with the intercept that you were referring to
12 in your statement in paragraph 13?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And how did you become familiar with that?
15 A. It was in the media; radio, television, newspapers.
16 Q. Did you hear it on the radio?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And the timing of the shelling of Velesici, what was that in
19 relation to the date of this intercept that you heard on the radio?
20 A. I cannot answer that question with any certainty.
21 Q. So you said a moment ago in your evidence that the shelling of
22 Velesici started in May 1992. Can you describe the duration of the
23 shelling on that settlement?
24 A. It began at the very beginning of the war and lasted throughout,
25 until the end of the war. I'm not sure if I can say there was one day
Page 9958
1 when we were not shelled. I believe at least two, three, five shells
2 were fired at Velesici every day.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. I've finished with that exhibit.
4 Q. Mr. Begic, I want to turn to February 1994.
5 Your father, Camil Begic, where did he work?
6 A. He worked in a company called Duhanpromet that employed
7 exclusively war invalids from the previous war. 85 to 90 per cent of all
8 employees were disabled persons.
9 Q. And in your statement, you state that your father was also
10 disabled. Can you briefly describe the disability?
11 A. Yes. My father had a disabled right leg. He did not have his
12 right foot, but his prosthesis went up to the knee.
13 Q. Was your father a member of the military?
14 A. No, no, he couldn't have been. He was an invalid.
15 Q. When was the last time you saw your father alive?
16 A. On the 5th of February, that tragic day. That morning, he left
17 home around 10.00, and that was the last time I saw him.
18 Q. Where was he going?
19 A. He went to his work in Duhanpromet company, which was located in
20 Skenderija. His company was supposed to be moved, and he and a group of
21 workers went to work to prevent this eviction, because it was an
22 eviction.
23 Q. Did you subsequently find out where he went after leaving his
24 work-place on the 5th of February?
25 A. I found out that he got killed at the market when my neighbour,
Page 9959
1 Senad, came to my door and said that my father was seriously wounded.
2 That's when I first learned he had been to the market.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could play Exhibit -- this is a Defence
4 document or exhibit, D -- 1D --
5 JUDGE KWON: Can I ask, Ms. Sutherland, how long would you need
6 to conclude your examination-in-chief?
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: At least half an hour, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE KWON: In that case, we better adjourn for today.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it was my understanding that
12 today's court session could be extended a bit further. Maybe it's a
13 misunderstanding, but that's at least what I understood, that it would be
14 possible.
15 I'm a bit concerned because of our videolink. Given the times
16 that are meant for cross-examination, it should be fine, but we never
17 know about technical matters that may come up. Therefore, I'm a bit
18 concerned whether we could proceed a bit longer so that the
19 examination-in-chief could be concluded today. But it's just a proposal
20 and a concern I have.
21 JUDGE KWON: That's a good point.
22 I wonder whether it would be okay to have a short break and
23 then -- because the tape, we need to take a break in any event. We'll
24 take a break for 15 minutes and resume at 10 to 3.00, if it is agreeable
25 to everybody, and we'll just -- we'll conclude the examination-in-chief.
Page 9960
1 And we begin with the next witness tomorrow or we continue to
2 hear evidence of this witness?
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if it was possible to sit for the
4 hour and a half that was intimated we may be able to sit for today, then
5 we would be able to finish the examination and cross-examination of
6 Mr. Begic today.
7 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
8 One of the problems is we didn't have enough notice of some of
9 these topics to really begin the cross-examination today.
10 JUDGE KWON: According to the Chamber's calculation, we thought
11 we would be able to finish -- we will be able to finish the next witness
12 tomorrow, given some slippage into tomorrow of this witness, but let's do
13 that. We conclude today the examination-in-chief only, and we'll
14 continue with cross-examination of this witness tomorrow.
15 We'll have a break for 15 minutes and resume at 10 to 3.00.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.
17 JUDGE KWON: I appreciate the understanding of all the staff
18 members. Thank you very much.
19 --- Recess taken at 2.38 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 2.53 p.m.
21 JUDGE KWON: When it was decided that it was impossible to sit on
22 the morning of 8th of December, due to the Judges' plenary, we decided we
23 might extend today's sitting a bit further, but my impression is that
24 decision hasn't been fully communicated to the staff. I appreciate the
25 staff's flexibility to kindly accommodate the Chamber's need.
Page 9961
1 Having said that, let's continue, Ms. Sutherland.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Mr. Begic, I just want to go back to clarify something that you
4 wanted to clarify, in fact, in your statement, and that was on the
5 5th of February. In your statement, at paragraph 3, it says that your
6 father didn't leave the family house with Muhamed Borovina, as stated,
7 but he left alone and met Muhamed Borovina at the company office; is that
8 right?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. And how did you know that he met Muhamed Borovina at the office
11 at Duhanpromet?
12 A. Because he told me, as he was leaving, that he was meeting
13 Muhamed Borovina and that they were going to their work together.
14 Q. Did you later talk to someone who had seen your father and
15 Borovina at the market?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. Who was that?
18 A. Enko Sanderovic [phoen].
19 Q. And where had you been that morning?
20 A. Also at the market-place, the shopping centre, and I left a
21 couple of minutes before Enko, towards the Eternal Flame, and I was by
22 the Eternal Flame when the shell fell on Markale.
23 Q. How far is the Trznica Market from the Markale Market? What is
24 the distance between the two markets, the market that you were in the
25 morning and the market -- the Markale Market, where your father was?
Page 9962
1 A. Markale is not the shopping centre, it's a market, and the
2 shopping centre is a couple of hundred metres from the Markale Market.
3 Q. Was the market a usual day on the 5th of February, as you
4 remember?
5 A. Yes, right. Markets were very, very busy at all times, because
6 our entire lives revolved around them. Markets were the only place where
7 you could find something to survive, to trade, to swap, so all the
8 markets in Sarajevo
9 Q. And you mentioned that you were walking home. In paragraph 4 of
10 your statement, you said that you heard an explosion. Is that right?
11 A. Yes, right.
12 Q. And as you were walking home, did you know that it was the
13 Markale Market that had been shelled?
14 A. Not right away. I was close to home when they reported about
15 that on the news, so I knew already that there was a major massacre at
16 Markale.
17 Q. That was before you got home, somebody had told you this?
18 A. Yes. I was on the way home, and some of the citizens had already
19 heard it on the news, and news spread very quickly in Sarajevo, somebody
20 told me on the way.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we now play the video-clip, 1D01031, which
22 is a clip from Mr. Karadzic's opening.
23 Q. Mr. Begic, can you just watch this clip, please.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MS. SUTHERLAND:
Page 9963
1 Q. Mr. Begic, do you recall when you saw that clip for the first
2 time?
3 A. Yes, I do. Very soon after the explosion, maybe the next day,
4 maybe the day after. I'm not quite sure, but this clip has been shown
5 time and again for years now.
6 Q. In paragraph 1 of your statement, you mention that Risto Djogo
7 played some footage of the Markale Market. Do you recall saying that in
8 your statement?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Do you also recall, in paragraph 10 of your statement, saying
11 that you watched, with horror and shock, Radovan Karadzic's opening
12 statement on the 1st of March, 2010?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Do you recall now seeing the footage that has been just been
15 played as part of Mr. Karadzic's opening?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. The prosthetic that we saw in the video, do you recognise that?
18 A. I recognise it. It's my father's prosthetic leg.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I seek to tender that video-clip.
20 JUDGE KWON: That video was already marked for identification as
21 D894. It was tendered through Mr. Besic, Sead Besic, on 9th of December.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 And for the record, the video-clip excerpt that I played was
24 00:00:08 to 00:01:01.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
Page 9964
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could I have 65 ter 23035 [Realtime transcript
2 read in error "23025"], please.
3 That's not the right exhibit. It's 23035, and my apologies for
4 giving the wrong 65 ter number.
5 Q. Mr. Begic, do you recognise that as a still from the video-clip
6 that we just saw?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I seek to tender that photograph.
9 JUDGE KWON: Do you like to show him the next page?
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. I was hoping there was two
11 pages, but I just see it's "1 of 1" on the screen.
12 JUDGE KWON: It has the second page.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND:
14 Q. Mr. Begic, again, do you recognise that still?
15 A. I do.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may I tender those stills?
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Yes, they will be admitted.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this document shall be assigned
19 Exhibit P2046. Thank you.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, I wish to play now three short
21 clips of 65 ter 40109. These four clips were, in fact, shown through
22 Witness Besic on Friday during re-examination, but I wish to show a
23 couple of seconds either side of the footage that was showed to Mr. Besic
24 to show the context for the witness.
25 So the first video-clip I wish to show is 00 -- from 00:03:30
Page 9965
1 00:03:50
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could pause there.
4 Q. Mr. Begic, is that the -- or do you recognise that, what's in the
5 middle of the screen now? And we have stopped at 00:03:49.3.
6 A. I do. It's my father's prosthesis.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: The next clip is 00:08:00 to 00:08:13.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MS. SUTHERLAND:
10 Q. Again, Mr. Begic, we stopped at 00:08:10.3. Do you recognise
11 what's in that frame?
12 A. Yes, I recognise it.
13 Q. What is it?
14 A. My father's prosthetic leg.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: The third clip is from 00:10:17 to 00:10:32.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MS. SUTHERLAND:
18 Q. Again, Mr. Begic, we've stopped at 00:10:28.5. Do you recognise
19 what's on that still?
20 A. Yes, my father's prosthesis.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: And, again, the last clip is 00:24:24 to
22 00:25:10
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MS. SUTHERLAND:
25 Q. Mr. Begic, again, do you remember -- do you recognise what was
Page 9966
1 shown in that short video-clip? And what was it?
2 A. Yes, I recognised my father's prosthesis.
3 Q. You said that your neighbour told you, Senad Kunovac, that your
4 father had been injured. Do you know where he was at that time when you
5 were told?
6 A. Yes. He told me that his sister had called him from
7 Kosevo Hospital
8 transferred to the UNPROFOR's hospital which was located in Stup, in the
9 PTT building.
10 Q. And did you go to the French hospital?
11 A. Yes, I did, sometime in the evening between 6.00 and 8.00. I
12 know it was dark, and it was very difficult to get inside that hospital.
13 When I got in, my father was already dead.
14 Q. What time did you arrive at the hospital?
15 A. I can't tell you the exact time, but I believe it was between
16 6.00 and 8.00 p.m. that same day.
17 Q. Did you see your father's body at the hospital?
18 A. No, I did not see it in the UNPROFOR's hospital. I saw it only
19 in the mortuary of the Kosevo Hospital
20 Q. Can you describe the scene in the morgue when you arrived at the
21 Kosevo Hospital
22 A. The morgue was full of bodies. It was very, very hard to watch
23 that whole scene. I looked at my father. I was inside for about five,
24 six minutes, and I examined my father and his wounds.
25 Q. What were the wounds that you saw?
Page 9967
1 A. Wounds on his legs, and one on his right side here near the
2 kidney [indicating].
3 Q. Did he have his prosthetic leg on?
4 A. No, he did not.
5 Q. Did you see Muhamed Borovina's body at the morgue?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you come to learn of the extent of his injuries?
8 A. I did. I found out from his brothers that he was in a very bad
9 way, that shrapnel literally tore him to pieces.
10 Q. You said, in paragraph 6 of your statement, that Muhamed's body
11 must have been partially protecting your father's body. Can you just
12 explain how you came to that assumption?
13 A. I supposed so, because they had been together, and my father was
14 hit by much less shrapnel than Muhamed. That's why I supposed that
15 Muhamed was standing next to him, and most of the shrapnel hit Muhamed
16 and tore him to pieces.
17 Q. When, in your statement, you say that you buried your father the
18 next day, when did you do this? What time of the day?
19 A. It was the next day, at 1700 hours, in Budakovici. Most of the
20 funerals were done at night because of the shelling.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could have 65 ter 23007, please.
22 Q. Mr. Begic, do you recognise this document as a document that you
23 were shown in April 2010?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. And you went through that list and identified some people that
Page 9968
1 had been killed or wounded; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. One of them was Nura Odzak. What was her occupation?
4 A. It's a woman, Nura Odzak. I don't know what her occupation was,
5 but I met her son, and every anniversary of the massacre in Markale, I
6 see this young man. So I did not know the mother. I just know the son.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: And for Your Honours' and the accused's benefit,
8 this is referred to in paragraph 7 of the April 2010 statement.
9 Q. Another person you identified was Ruzdija Trbic, and the name
10 "Ruzdija" is spelled incorrectly in your statement with an S, as opposed
11 to a "zh," Z. What is the gender of this person?
12 A. Ruzdija Trbic was a man. He's the father of a friend of mine,
13 Mustafa Trbic.
14 Q. Do you know what his occupation was?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Muhamed Borovina you also identified as the person that worked
17 with your father in the firm that employed the disabled people; is that
18 correct?
19 A. Yes, that's right. Muhamed Borovina was our family friend, and
20 my father had known him for a great many years.
21 Q. You also identified as being wounded Muradif Celik and
22 Kenan Suvalija; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, that's correct. I was given a list to see if I can remember
24 anyone from that list. Muradif I know is a relative of my wife's, so I
25 remember that last name, and Kenan Suvalija, his father was the director,
Page 9969
1 the headmaster, of my primary school. That's how I remember him.
2 Q. And you say in paragraph 7 of your statement that he is a
3 70 per cent invalid; is that right?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. Did you know the occupation of Muradif Celik?
6 A. He was a retired policeman. He used to work for many years in
7 police. He had some sort of a grave injury and had been retired for many
8 years.
9 Q. I want to focus now on how you recovered the prosthetic. Can you
10 just briefly explain to the Court how you did that?
11 JUDGE KWON: Before that, do you like to tender that?
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE KWON: That will be admitted.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
15 Exhibit P2047. Thank you.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND:
17 Q. Mr. Begic, can you briefly tell the Court how you came to recover
18 your father's prosthetic?
19 A. Yes, naturally. Several days after that, three or four days
20 following the massacre, I went to the shopping centre. There, I found a
21 man who was an employee, and I told him that I wanted to find some
22 belongings of my father, including the prosthesis that I had seen on TV.
23 He took me to a small room, where there were all kinds of items collected
24 after the massacres at Markale. I recognised my father's prosthetic leg,
25 and I took it. I also took a notebook of my father's that I found there,
Page 9970
1 and I have it with me.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we have 65 ter 23057.
3 Q. Mr. Begic, I'm going to show you three photographs, and can you
4 tell me if you recognise what's in the photograph?
5 Mr. Begic, this is -- I'm advised by Mr. Reid if we could go to
6 Sanction, please.
7 Mr. Begic, do you recognise what's in this photograph? And this
8 is 65 ter 23057.
9 A. Yes, I do. This is the prosthesis that I took to the office of
10 The Hague
11 Q. Do you recall when this was?
12 A. Yes. Some 15 days ago, roughly.
13 Q. Who took this photograph?
14 A. The gentleman from the office of The Hague Tribunal, Paul Grade
15 [as interpreted].
16 Q. Paul Grady?
17 A. Yes, that's who I had in mind.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could look at the next 65 ter number,
19 23058.
20 Q. Do you recognise what's in that photograph?
21 A. Yes, certainly.
22 Q. What is it? If you can just describe it, please.
23 A. It's the same prosthesis that we've been talking about the entire
24 time, except that in this picture we can see holes made by shrapnel.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if we could look at the last 65 ter number,
Page 9971
1 23060.
2 Q. And, again, for the record, Mr. Begic, is that the prosthetic
3 again from another angle?
4 A. Yes, the same prosthetic limb.
5 Q. And the blue writing at the bottom of the prosthetic, can you
6 just explain what that is?
7 A. Yes, certainly. Paul wrote this. He put some sort of a mark, I
8 suppose something that is some sort of a reference here for the Tribunal.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: I think we can see the date, "20th of November,
10 2010."
11 Your Honour, I don't know whether you wish -- whether it's easier
12 to tender these as a composite exhibit or separately, the three
13 photographs into one exhibit, or have them as separate exhibits --
14 JUDGE KWON: If convenient, if possible, we can admit it as one
15 exhibit.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND:
17 Q. And, Mr. Begic, this is the prosthetic leg that you recovered
18 from the Markale Market which belonged to your father; is that right?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 JUDGE KWON: These pictures will be admitted as Exhibit P2047 --
21 28. Thank you.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Just one correction for the transcript.
23 This photo should be admitted as Exhibit P2048. Thank you.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if we could place 65 ter 23035 on the
25 left-hand side of the screen, and 23057, which is now part of
Page 9972
1 Exhibit P02048 -- I'm sorry, it's 65 ter 23060.
2 Q. Mr. Begic, do you see what's in front of you on the screen?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Do both of these pictures depict the same prosthetic leg which
5 belonged to your father?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And how do you know that it's the same leg?
8 A. Well, look at the picture on the left, where it says that this is
9 a prosthesis before the explosion, which is a sheer lie. Do you see the
10 hole? I don't know if I can point it to you on this picture. But if you
11 compare the hole on the picture on the left side with the hole on the
12 picture on the right side, then you'll see it.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if I could ask the witness to take
14 the pen, with the Usher's assistance -- sorry, it's not possible.
15 Your Honour, if I could tender this composite -- these two
16 photographs as one exhibit. If we could take a photograph of that,
17 please.
18 JUDGE KWON: Is that possible?
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mr. Reid can do it.
20 JUDGE KWON: Very well. This will be admitted as Exhibit P2049.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND:
22 Q. And, Mr. Begic, just to be clear, the video footage that we
23 showed earlier that was -- that you recognised as the video footage that
24 was shown during Mr. Karadzic's opening, and then the four video-clips
25 that we saw with your father's prosthetic leg, you recognised where that
Page 9973
1 was, didn't you?
2 A. Yes, certainly.
3 Q. Where was that?
4 A. At the market. I don't know if I understood you well. Are you
5 asking about the place where he died?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. Right now, I can't see that picture in front of me. That is the
8 picture that you showed earlier with the prosthesis, and I think that
9 that is exactly the location where my father died.
10 Q. But the photo on the left-hand side of what you can see now on
11 your screen, what you're saying is that is the Markale Market; is that
12 right?
13 A. Yes, certainly, the Markale Market. I think that this picture
14 was made after the shell exploded.
15 Q. And my final question is: Can you describe the psychological
16 impact of the Markale shelling on you and your family and your friends in
17 the community, briefly?
18 A. Those were very difficult moments. One only thinks about how to
19 survive in war. Naturally, this affects you psychologically, especially
20 since there was hunger in Sarajevo
21 to survive. It is very difficult to explain this to you, but at that
22 time it was extremely difficult to be a resident of Sarajevo; I mean,
23 during wartime.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 I have one more formality, and that is to -- now that -- because
Page 9974
1 your earlier statement is going to be admitted into evidence, I need to
2 ask you a couple of questions.
3 So does your April 2001 statement, with the corrections that you
4 made to it yesterday, and your evidence today correcting and clarifying
5 things in your 2010 statement, does that -- I'm sorry, I said
6 "April 2001." I meant April 2010. Does that -- is that -- does that
7 represent an accurate statement of events, as you recall them?
8 A. Let me tell you, I think that there were a lot of mistakes in the
9 statement of 15th of April, 2010. I told you yesterday about it. I
10 don't know whether it was a case of bad interpretation or something else,
11 but given that I don't speak English, I think that, yes, there were some
12 deficiencies in the statements that I gave in Sarajevo, unlike in the
13 statement that I gave here yesterday.
14 Q. And with the corrections that you had in the statement that you
15 gave yesterday and the clarifications and corrections that you've given
16 during your testimony today, is that an accurate statement of the events,
17 as you recall them?
18 A. Yes, certainly.
19 Q. If you were asked the same questions again about -- which gave
20 rise to that written evidence, would your answers be the same?
21 A. Yes, certainly.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.
23 Your Honour, I would ask that 65 ter 90203, which is the
24 witness's 2010 -- April 2010 statement, and also the statement from the
25 14th of December, 2010, with the relevant redactions, be admitted into
Page 9975
1 evidence.
2 JUDGE KWON: They will be both admitted.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, these two documents shall be
4 assigned Exhibit P2050 and P2051. Thank you. Respectively, of course.
5 Thank you.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, since one clarifies the other, is
7 it not possible to put them together as one exhibit?
8 JUDGE KWON: We just admitted it as two exhibits, but let's move
9 on.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour. That's all I have.
11 JUDGE KWON: There are some further associated exhibits to be
12 tendered?
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
14 The 92 ter notification, filed on the 12th of November,
15 Appendix A, I seek to have all of the associated exhibits listed there.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We already admitted 23007, so we'll admit
17 23006. And then there are from 23004 to 23012, certificate of burial,
18 death certificate, certificate -- those were not discussed in his
19 statement. But if there's no challenges from the Defence, we'll admit
20 them.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE KWON: All those will be admitted and given a number by the
23 Court Deputy and circulated to the parties in due course.
24 So we'll adjourn for today, and we'll resume at 9.00 with this
25 witness.
Page 9976
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I am just concerned about one point.
2 The Trial Chamber has granted one hour cross-examination for the
3 witness, but, of course, there are now a few additional things discussed.
4 If the position changes in relation to that timing, I get a bit concerned
5 about the videolink and whether it's perhaps advisable to have the
6 videolink witness first, interposing this witness. But that's just my
7 caution.
8 JUDGE KWON: I think one hour is more than sufficient for your
9 cross-examination, yes.
10 We'll start with Mr. Begic tomorrow at 9.00.
11 In the meantime, Mr. Begic, you are not supposed to discuss about
12 your testimony with anybody else.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Naturally.
14 JUDGE KWON: Have a pleasant evening.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.38 p.m.
17 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 16th day of
18 December, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.
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