120111ED

Page 22740

1 with eight of these 16 bodies. 671 shell casings were found grouped

2 together near the Lazete 2C grave. Mr. Peccerelli concluded that the

3 shell casings were most likely fired at this location. In addition,

4 20 live rounds, 46 bullets, and 34 strips of material were found at the

5 Lazete 2C site. The strips of material found at the Lazete 2C site were

6 consistent with the strips of material found at the Lazete 1 mass grave

7 site.

8 Q. Mr. Peccerelli, I have a few additional questions on three

9 topics.

10 MR. MITCHELL: If I can have 65 ter 2482 in e-court. It's

11 Exhibit P4135.

12 Q. This is your report on Lazete 1.

13 MR. MITCHELL: If I can have page 12 in e-court.

14 Q. Mr. Peccerelli, I think that's page 11 in the hard copy of your

15 report.

16 Now, we can see here some photos of the site that you exhumed.

17 Were you able to tell whether the bodies in the Lazete 1 grave were

18 deposited in one event or were they deposited there at different times,

19 possibly over a period of several years?

20 A. During the excavation we were able to establish that a single

21 event was the cause of this grave. The grave showed uniform profiles and

22 as well as a uniform bottom. The bodies were displaced in a uniform

23 manner and clumped together throughout the grave. And the only thing

24 where we can see that there was a secondary excavation on the grave was

25 when a robbing event occurred posterior to the primary grave being dug,

Page 22741

1 and this was seen by a difference in the soil fill in those two robbing

2 areas as well as the presence of truncated body parts -- truncated bodies

3 as well as the creation of body parts specifically on the edges of the

4 robbing areas as well as in the fill.

5 It is important to note that throughout the grave you can see a

6 continuum of the edges of the grave as well as of the equipment that was

7 used to create this grave. And the bodies are laid on top of each other

8 only with small pieces of top-soil among them. This indicates that the

9 bodies were placed in there at one time and most likely had this top-soil

10 among the bodies, between the bodies, because of the way they were placed

11 in the grave, most likely pushed in the grave by machinery.

12 Q. What would you expect to see -- what archaeological evidence

13 would you expect to see if the bodies had been placed in there at

14 different times?

15 A. Well, first of all, we would expect to see the existence of

16 disarticulation of the bodies, which we did not see here. Even the body

17 parts were articulated among the bones that were there, that were left.

18 In other words, these were severed during an extraction process that was

19 posterior to the initial burial and these showed the same type of

20 decomposition as the rest of the bodies. We did not see any signs of

21 features within the grave that would lead us to believe that this was a

22 prior burial of any type. The hole, the original hole that later turned

23 into a grave when the bodies were deposited into it was dug into a virgin

24 clay yellowish soil and the fill was a combination of the strata that was

25 exhumed as well as the top-soil that was deposited into it over the

Page 22742

1 bodies and this was uniform throughout.

2 Q. At page 21 of this report you describe how the 20 -- 129 bodies

3 from this grave were found in various states of decomposition. So if

4 these bodies all went into the grave in a single event, can you explain

5 why the bodies show differential rates of decomposition?

6 A. Yes, well, I have worked in over 1400 investigations in

7 Guatemala, and when it comes to mass graves there is differential

8 decomposition due to many factors but decomposition in itself is a very

9 complex issue. It is impacted by specifically three types of

10 differences. For example, first we look at the biological aspects of

11 decomposition, then we look at the environmental and then the cultural.

12 As far as the biological, we have to remember that bodies might decompose

13 differently due to their weight, their size, and their sex even. As far

14 as environmental, we have to remember that the difference in humidity or

15 acidity of the soil will also impact the bodies differently and how close

16 these bodies are to that soil. Thirdly, as far as cultural aspects,

17 well, in this case we're talking about a mass grave. The bodies were

18 buried and also the cause of death or the trauma that was impacted on the

19 bodies will also affect the decomposition. Specifically in this case the

20 bodies that are closer to the edges or in contact, direct contact, with

21 the soil or are higher in the surface of the grave will decompose at

22 slightly faster rate. And the bodies that are in the nucleus of the

23 grouping of bodies will be protected from the environment more so and

24 will decompose slightly slower.

25 Now, you do have to remember that the decomposition stages here

Page 22743

1 are transient. In other words, there we're talking about advanced

2 decomposition to skeletonisation. So there is no one step jumping to the

3 other. This is a transient state and the bodies are all among those too.

4 They show adipocere which is a greyish-whitish tissue, sort of greasy

5 initially and then eventually it becomes brittle and eventually into

6 skeletonisation. This is exactly what we have throughout these bodies in

7 the entire grave.

8 So the difference is very slight and it is related to the

9 location of the bodies within the grave. Once again, the bodies that are

10 protected from the environment by other bodies decompose at a slightly

11 slower rate than the bodies that are in direct contact with the soil.

12 Q. After you had established that these bodies were placed in the

13 grave in a single event, were you able to determine when this single

14 event occurred?

15 A. Well, archaeologically we were not able to do so. What we did

16 have was images that we were given by the ICTY investigators. Dean

17 Manning I think was his name at the time. He gave me an image. I think

18 it's the image that's on the screen now --

19 MR. MITCHELL: Perhaps we can bring up a larger version of that

20 image. If we can have 65 ter 3199 and go to page 146 in e-court. It's

21 the same image but bigger and better quality.

22 Q. Perhaps if the usher can assist you, I might ask you to mark some

23 things on this photo as you're describing to us what you can see. If you

24 can go ahead with your explanation.

25 A. When we were -- the team was given these images, we studied them.

Page 22744

1 And what we could see, these are two images, aerial images, taken of the

2 same location. And you can see that we are talking about basically this

3 quadrant here which appears in this image as this quadrant there. And

4 then we're also talking about this section here, which appears more or

5 less there. You can see they are slightly different and this is probably

6 because of the angles of where the pictures were taken, but in the one on

7 my left, which is dated July 5th, you can see that on both fields there

8 are no features that are relevant. In other words, there's nothing we

9 can see. We can see homogenous ground, vegetation looks pretty much the

10 same, these are cleared fields with maybe a slight feature going to the

11 middle of the top one. But then on the one on the right that is dated

12 July 27th, we can see that there are specifically an oval-shaped feature

13 with tracks going around it and in the bottom one you can see also an

14 oval-shaped feature with some spillover on both of these.

15 Once we saw these images, what we believe we're seeing here is

16 the result of turning the soil over, in other words, exposing soil that

17 was underneath and breaking the top-soil, taking the vegetation away, and

18 then covering it up again. So you would see this very differently from

19 the surrounding vegetation. And also the shapes of the two features led

20 us to believe that these could be graves. So we decided that we should

21 excavate -- well, initially it was only Lazete 1, which is the one on

22 top --

23 Q. I'm sorry, can I stop you there for a minute. Can you actually

24 mark on this image Lazete 1 -- LZ01.

25 A. Pen went over it. Can you see it?

Page 22745

1 Q. And then put in the -- for the lower site what its name is.

2 A. I don't know if you can see that.

3 Q. We can see that. Thank you. Please continue.

4 A. Because of the two dates -- I mean, we requested images in

5 between the dates, but we were told that they didn't have them. So we

6 placed the dates of the original excavation of the primary grave-site

7 between July 5th of 1995 and July 27th of 1995.

8 Q. Can you please put your initials in the bottom right-hand corner

9 and then today's date, 11 January 2012.

10 A. [Marks]

11 MR. MITCHELL: And can I tender that, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that will be admitted.

13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P4139, Your Honours.

14 MR. MITCHELL:

15 Q. And just to summarise and round that off, it's your conclusion

16 that the bodies from that grave were placed there in a single interment

17 between the dates of 5 and 27 July 1995?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. And the last area I want to ask you a couple of questions about

20 are the probable blindfolds that were recovered from Lazete 1.

21 MR. MITCHELL: And if we can go back to 65 ter 2482; that's

22 P4135.

23 JUDGE KWON: Page?

24 MR. MITCHELL: Page 23 in e-court.

25 Q. It's page 22 of the physical report.

Page 22746

1 JUDGE KWON: I think it's sufficient to upload the English

2 version only.

3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

4 JUDGE KWON: Next page. Is it correct -- right?

5 MR. MITCHELL: No. It's the page --

6 JUDGE KWON: I think it's the next page. You said hard copy

7 page 22.

8 MR. MITCHELL: You're right. That's the correct page. Thank

9 you.

10 Q. At the top of this page you describe how on 89 bodies there was

11 strips of material tied around the head and placed over the face or

12 directly associated to the head. And you concluded that these were

13 probably used as blindfolds. Now, can you explain why you concluded that

14 these 89 strips of pink material were probably blindfolds and not

15 something else. For example, some kind of ceremonial headband.

16 A. In -- what we were encountering here was a mass grave with no

17 clear funerary practices, disorganised bodies, no respect was shown as

18 far as the way the bodies were buried. It seemed to be that this is

19 concurrent with a site of deposition of or execution of bodies, and the

20 pieces of cloth which were very similar seemed to have uniformity. And

21 in most of the cases seemed to be covering the eyes. The term "probable"

22 was used because in some instances they were not covering the eyes and

23 they were covering the mouth or in a couple of instances they might have

24 moved up to the forehead. But in general they were covering the eyes.

25 And also because we found another 37 strips of material very particular,

Page 22747

1 again scalloped edges and pink. And we believe that these could also

2 have been used as blindfolds and might have fell off the bodies. I think

3 you can see some of those -- there's an image of those in the report as

4 well. The colour I think is also something very important. Pink is not

5 some -- is not a colour that you would use to wear as a headband in a

6 combat situation, I think.

7 Q. You found 34 strips of the same type of material in the Lazete 2C

8 grave over the other side of the railway tracks. Is that correct?

9 A. Let me check on the number, but I believe so. Yes, 34 strips of

10 material.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Peccerelli. I have no further questions.

12 A. You're welcome.

13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mitchell, I'm afraid the markings by this

15 witness of Lazete 1 and Lazete 2 on aerial image have been lost. Do you

16 think we need to do that exercise again or ...?

17 MR. MITCHELL: I could take him very briefly to the photo and

18 just have him quickly mark it.

19 JUDGE KWON: All right. Could we do that.

20 MR. MITCHELL: It was 65 ter 3199 and page 146 in e-court.

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

22 MR. MITCHELL:

23 Q. And when this comes up, Mr. Peccerelli, if you can just mark for

24 us the Lazete 1 and Lazete 2 sites.

25 A. Of course.

Page 22748

1 Q. And if you could circle the actual grave areas within --

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Thank you. And then initialise and date.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Thank you.

6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

7 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Peccerelli. First of all, I'd

11 like to thank you for meeting up with the Defence. I hope that that will

12 help us conduct this examination as simply as possible. I see that

13 Mr. Mitchell even used that interview of ours to clarify a few matters,

14 so even he had some benefit from it and I thank him for it.

15 I would like to start with the very last matter. On page 22, in

16 response to Mr. Mitchell's question about the possible bands, or rather,

17 you say these are possible blindfolds, he asked whether this was a

18 ceremonial thing. You brought that into question -- actually, the

19 argumentation you provided was that the burial was not dignified and was

20 not carried out in accordance with religious customs and rites. Was it

21 your understanding that these bands are used during religious burial

22 ceremonies?

23 A. No, no, they are not.

24 Q. But that was your answer. In a way you expressed your doubt, you

25 doubted that these were ceremonial bands because there were no other

Page 22749

1 elements that would be involved in a dignified religious burial. Do you

2 know - and up until our interview you had not known about this, your

3 hosts in Bosnia had not informed you about this - do you know of the

4 custom of wearing these headbands during combat and they're worn on the

5 forehead. And then if tissue decays, then the headband may fall down or

6 slide down. Do you know that this was customary among the Islamic

7 fighters?

8 A. No, I do not.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 JUDGE KWON: Can you bring up the page of his report which shows

11 the probable blindfold. E-court page is what?

12 MR. MITCHELL: E-court page is 23.

13 JUDGE KWON: 23. Thank you, Mr. Mitchell.

14 Mr. Karadzic, were you referring to these pictures when you asked

15 the witness about the ceremonial or customary thing? Or your question

16 was in general?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I understood things correctly,

18 Mr. Mitchell brought this into doubt -- or rather, offered the

19 possibility of doubting whether these were ceremonial headbands. On

20 page 22, Mr. Peccerelli said that he had not seen any other signs of a

21 ceremonial burial, and that therefore the conclusion could be drawn that

22 perhaps these were not headbands but rather blindfolds. This led me to

23 think that Mr. Peccerelli perhaps thought that bands were used during

24 burials, not during fighting.

25 JUDGE KWON: And what was your question, Mr. Karadzic?

Page 22750

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is that the case and does

2 Mr. Peccerelli know that these bands were not used during burials? On

3 the contrary, they were used during fighting, combat. So the absence of

4 other elements of a religious burial does not say a thing about these

5 bands because these bands are not used during burial ceremonies, but

6 rather during a person's life and when that person goes into combat.

7 JUDGE KWON: I think we heard the answer from the witness. Let's

8 carry on.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. So nevertheless, out of an abundance of caution, you used the

12 word "probable." What led you to this relativisation, or rather, this

13 reservation? What led you to do that? For example, these very same

14 victims, did they have their hands tied or did they only have these

15 blindfolds or bands on their heads?

16 A. What led me and the team to put "probable" was because some of

17 them were not placed directly over the eyes and had been moved due to the

18 movement of the bodies being placed in the grave as well as

19 decomposition. Also the fact that we also found 37 more. They were not

20 directly on the bodies but because they were the same type of material,

21 mostly all of the same colour, and mostly all with scalloped edges, we

22 believed that this could also have been probable blindfolds and that's

23 what led us to use that term.

24 As far as -- let's see, two of them had their hands tied behind

25 their back and those are listed in the report. The rest we found no

Page 22751

1 evidence of them having restraints. Only, like I mentioned at the

2 beginning, there was a third body that had a strip of material that was

3 placed around both thighs and then went into the lower leg.

4 Q. Thank you. And do you know that under such circumstances when

5 people cannot be differentiated on the basis of race, language, faith,

6 combatants are marked by such ribbons or other markings in order to

7 prevent friendly fire?

8 A. No, I do not.

9 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that these two persons, these two

10 victims, with tied hands did not have any blindfolds on?

11 A. You would have to give me a second to check. These are body 549

12 and 560 according to the report. Yes, body 549 did not have a blindfold

13 and body 560 -- however, body 560 did according to the exhumation form.

14 Q. And where was that band in the case of that particular body?

15 A. Over the eyes.

16 Q. Thank you. Did you have any explanation or any way of

17 understanding why people who were being shot at and who did not have

18 their hands tied would suffer having some blindfold on their eyes when,

19 quite simply, they could tear them off by moving their hands?

20 A. My only explanation for that would be the overwhelming amount of

21 ballistic evidence at the site, and to think that they were probably --

22 probably shot rather quickly and did not have a chance or were probably

23 afraid to take them off if they were told not to take them off. If they

24 would, they would probably be shot. That's my only explanation.

25 Q. And how and in which way did you rule out the possibility that

Page 22752

1 these were not executions in the case of persons who did not have their

2 hands tied? How did you rule out that possibility? Actually, during our

3 interview you said that no one had informed you about 44 months of heavy

4 fighting in that area, 44 months of heavy fighting. No one told you that

5 you might come across such graves and such victims. Isn't that right?

6 A. Yes, that is correct, nobody informed me that there was 44 months

7 of fighting in the area.

8 Q. And was it beyond reasonable doubt and by applying which method

9 did you rule out the possibility that these victims were the victims of

10 combat? Basically you were seriously restricted by this lack of

11 information to the effect that there had been 44 months of heavy

12 fighting. Had you known about that, you probably would have done things

13 differently or at least some things. Could you rule out the possibility

14 of these people having died in combat?

15 A. Well, here I must say that to answer this question you cannot

16 only do it with the excavation part of the investigation. This type of

17 an investigation has to be approached with a multi-disciplinary approach

18 and I would need the information, first of all, of the traumas that each

19 one of these bodies was sustained. There is specific information,

20 there's actual studies conducted by Dr. Snow and Jose Pablo Baraybar that

21 shows that during 60 years and 25 different conventional combat you only

22 expect to have fatal wounds in 0.199 of the wounds of the people wounded

23 which means that only two out of ten wounds are fatal in combat. And

24 this is shown in 25 different combats all over the world during 60 years.

25 If I had the information of the traumas that these people suffered, I

Page 22753

1 could probably put them into this frequency of fatal wound formula and

2 tell you that with a high degree of probability.

3 The other thing I would do is I know for a fact that ICMP has

4 been working on the DNA identification of these bodies. I would see if

5 these are, in fact, the victims of Srebrenica that have been identified

6 here and that would also help me to ascertain whether the testimony that

7 says that the people were taken to this site and executed here are the

8 same people that were, in fact, taken from Srebrenica.

9 So I would definitely answer your question more completely with

10 all of that information, but the excavation part of this investigation

11 tells us that we did find a -- once again, a primary grave with

12 127 bodies. Two other bodies were found in a drainage ditch. Two of

13 these bodies had hands tied behind their back and 89 bodies had these

14 cloths over their faces. The way the bodies were placed in the grave

15 were -- gives me at least -- leads me to believe that they were pushed in

16 with some type of machinery, and that also put some of the top-soil

17 within the bodies. And also the fact that I -- we did not find any

18 markings on these headbands, we did not find any weapons, I mean all of

19 those things would have to be taken into account for me to be able to

20 make that type of a conclusion. The evidence here tells me that there's

21 nothing that I can see that leads me to believe that this was combat

22 deaths.

23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you are conducting your

24 cross-examination not only in the capacity of an accused but also as

25 counsel who represent yourself. So I'm asking you in that latter

Page 22754

1 capacity, is it your case that the people whose pictures we are seeing in

2 front of us died as a result of combat?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, my case is that an

4 enormous number of victims died in combat. Yesterday we heard from a

5 witness that we -- that they left behind the victims of bombings and the

6 Serbs later buried them. That is what we were told by a witness, a

7 Muslim, who was part of that column that was leaving. I can prove that

8 the presence of leafs and a surface layer clearly indicates that bodies

9 were gathered from the surface and then interred in a newly dug grave.

10 Even Mr. Peccerelli himself says that there was some dust there, that is

11 to say, soil coming from the surface. That means that these bodies had

12 spent a certain amount of time on the surface.

13 JUDGE KWON: And that theory applies to both Lazete 1 and

14 Lazete 2? Is that your case?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I don't know whether

16 there were some executions, but blindfolds without having these persons'

17 hands tied are illogical. We saw video clips of Islamic fighters with

18 the headbands going into combat. Mr. Peccerelli himself says that

19 sometimes these bands were on the eyes or on the nose or further down, so

20 I am challenging executions in obvious cases. Let the Prosecution prove,

21 for instance, who executed 12 tied men. That is not debatable at all.

22 However, there were so many victims of 44 months of heavy fighting,

23 warfare, and all of that is being put under "executions" and that is what

24 I am challenging and that is what I can prove.

25 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you. Please carry on.

Page 22755

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Peccerelli, is that the only explanation of the varying

3 degree of degradation of the bodies involved? How and in which way do

4 you rule out the possibility of burials taking place in several stages,

5 that is to say, after fighting existing graves were increased by adding

6 further bodies into them. Isn't that another viable possibility?

7 A. In Lazete 1 and Lazete 2, that is not a possibility. These

8 graves were homogenous in their shape, their depth. The bodies were

9 placed with no strata of foreign soil between them. All they had was

10 clumps of top-soil that were, again, a result of the bodies being pushed

11 in with machinery at one single time.

12 During my experience, once again, of excavating over 1400

13 different cases and close to 20.000 sets of human remains, we can tell as

14 anthropologists and archaeologists when graves are disturbed. And, as a

15 matter of fact, it is customary in Guatemala when a cemetery runs out of

16 room to bury several bodies in one grave. And even the people who work

17 at the cemeteries disturb the other bodies when they do this. So you

18 expect to see some degree of disturbance in the graves, definitely

19 different degree of preservation as far as the anatomical positioning of

20 the bones in relationship to each other, in other words, the articulation

21 of the bones and of the bodies. There's nothing in these two graves that

22 tell us that. There's no evidence of these graves coming at a later time

23 or on top of earlier graves.

24 Q. Are you speaking about the procedure of burial in Guatemala in

25 war time or peace time?

Page 22756

1 A. I would have to say both.

2 Q. I am a little bit baffled now by something. You said that you

3 believe or that you established - and if you did, would you please tell

4 us how - that before the 5th of July there were no burials in these

5 two locations. Is that correct? Were you able to rule that out?

6 A. What I said was that I believe that this -- these two graves were

7 dug between the date of July 5th and July 27th, and that was established

8 because of the aerial images we have. The fact that there were no

9 previous burials was established by the stratographic methodology used to

10 conduct the archeological excavation and exhumation of the bodies. In

11 other words, like I mentioned previously, the uniformity of the graves,

12 the way the bodies were laid on top of each other, the articulation of

13 these bodies, it's a clear sign that these graves did not disturb other

14 graves. We also don't have remains from other bodies from previous

15 excavations being disturbed by these bodies. There are no features

16 within any one of these two graves that these interrupted previous

17 burials.

18 What we do have in both graves is that when these were dug there

19 was a pre-existing excavation that carried within it a water-pipe and we

20 found that. We were able to see that these two graves cut into

21 pre-existing ditches that carried water-pipes in them. So this type of

22 evidence is something that we can see in the ground. We did not see this

23 with any other type of grave. We did not see any feature whatsoever that

24 would lead us to believe that there was previous graves in any one of the

25 two locations where we exhumed Lazete 1 and Lazete 2.

Page 22757

1 Q. Thank you. These two bodies in Lazete 1 that were found in the

2 canal, was the canal filled up?

3 A. If you're referring to the drainage ditch, yes, it had soil over

4 them. These were not graves but the bodies were on the surface but

5 covered with soil. And these bodies also had the probable blindfolds and

6 they were in the same stage of decomposition as the ones in the graves.

7 As I said in my report, I believe that these two bodies were -- probably

8 fell there during the robbing incident that occurred later during that

9 year and were covered over by the machinery.

10 Q. Thank you. And now, to what extent did these ditches correspond

11 to the direction of the water-pipes or did they intersect each other?

12 More precisely, at what angle did the damage to the water-pipes occur or

13 did the direction of the ditch or the canal and the water-pipes

14 correspond exactly in direction and degree?

15 A. There is an image --

16 JUDGE KWON: Shall we upload it? I think it's e-court page 18 if

17 I'm correct in number.

18 THE WITNESS: In the report it's page number 12 of the report.

19 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry.

20 MR. MITCHELL: That will be e-court page 13 --

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

22 MR. MITCHELL: -- Mr. President.

23 THE WITNESS: Here you can see evidence of this pre-existing

24 excavation of the water-pipe, and in the image below, the -- a little

25 higher, please, it says figure 19, in that one you can see how the grave

Page 22758

1 was dug on top of this and intersects the water-pipe. Now, if you go to

2 the lower image, I would say that the -- the question was what angle.

3 It's --

4 JUDGE KWON: The bottom part.

5 THE WITNESS: The bottom part, there we go. It looks like the

6 grave sort of falls obliquely over -- over the ditch that carried the

7 water-pipe -- not the ditch, the excavation that carried this water-pipe.

8 The drainage ditch ran in the southern part of the grave, more or less

9 where the arrows are coming from. So we're talking about different

10 features. We're talking about a drainage ditch that was sort of a

11 natural feature in the soil and then we're talking about an excavation

12 that carried a water-pipe in it.

13 JUDGE KWON: Do you have anything to say with respect to page 18,

14 hard copy page 17? We upload it.

15 THE WITNESS: This what you can see here in the background, this

16 is a secondary pipe that just fell along the ditch. We did not -- it's

17 not mapped in because it wasn't -- there wasn't an excavation that the

18 grave itself cut into. The other one we found particularly interesting

19 because the grave itself intersected that excavation and led us to see

20 that there was a pre-existing water-pipe that had been severed and later

21 reconnected. Once again, these two bodies were not in the grave.

22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

23 Back to you, Mr. Karadzic.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Are these the two bodies that were found in the canal or the

Page 22759

1 channel, the one that you referred to as the drainage ditch?

2 A. Yes, that is correct. This is one of them.

3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Peccerelli, how did you rule out the possibility

4 that this was an old trench from which there was firing, a firing

5 position which after it was captured was widened and used as a location

6 for burial?

7 A. I'm sorry to say that that was not something that we considered.

8 What I did -- I mean, what you can see here, there is a grave, a mass

9 grave, 10, 15 metres away. And if you look at -- there's an image, one

10 of the aerial images on report page 11.

11 JUDGE KWON: Page 12 in e-court.

12 THE WITNESS: If you could -- yeah, the lower -- there we go,

13 that one. The location of those two bodies is directly where those --

14 there's a -- I don't know if you can --

15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

16 THE WITNESS: I could mark it. See, these images are from

17 September, September 7th and September 27th, and you can see how the

18 grave was one size on September 7th and then there was a disturbance

19 again where you can see -- you can actually see tracks, you can see

20 tracks here and you can also see tracks here. Those two bodies laid

21 around this area here. So the conclusion that these two bodies were a

22 result of the robbing excavation comes from the evidence seen in the

23 aerial images.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. And how did you rule out the possibility that the grave was

Page 22760

1 refilled, that there were subsequent burials there? How did you conclude

2 that the changes were a result of additional burial because fighting was

3 still underway?

4 A. Once again, the grave showed no evidence of having any bodies,

5 any additional bodies, being put into it. What it had was evidence of

6 bodies being taken out of it. And this was shown by the creation of body

7 parts around the robbing excavations as well as the truncation or

8 segmentation of bodies around the edges of the robbing excavation.

9 JUDGE KWON: Would you kindly initial and date this marking.

10 THE WITNESS: Is it working?

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Peccerelli --

13 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Karadzic. We'll admit this

14 marked photo as Exhibit -- as a Defence exhibit.

15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D1989, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Peccerelli, would similar things happen with bodies that

19 would have been collected from the surface using machinery from a

20 different location which had spent a longer period of time on the surface

21 which were degraded, segmented, would those bodies be damaged if they

22 were brought to this location? Would we have fragmented bodies?

23 A. Well, first of all, if you had a surface -- bodies that laid on

24 the surface for prolonged periods of time would show evidence of --

25 decomposition works very differently when bodies are left in the surface.

Page 22761

1 You would have probably quicker skeletonisation. You would probably have

2 gnaw marks from animals, sun exposure to the bones which causes

3 bleaching, probably disarticulation due to also animal activity. If you

4 then recovered those bodies and placed them within this grave, they would

5 look very differently.

6 Q. Thank you. May I direct your attention to paragraph 8 -- to

7 section VIII of Lazete 2 and to its characteristics. And you state here

8 that the grave represents the place of multiple mass primary burial of

9 human remains covered by dug-over earth and with yellow --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We need time to find the

11 place where Mr. Karadzic is reading from.

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, interpreters have difficulty following

13 you. Why don't we upload it. The second report, page?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's page 14.

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Can you please see where it says below the bodies -- and

17 immediately below the same bodies clumps of earth were found surface

18 layer --

19 JUDGE KWON: Are you referring to Lazete 1 or 2?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm speaking about what we're

21 seeing on the screen now.

22 JUDGE KWON: I'm afraid this is related to Lazete 1.

23 Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

24 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, I think Dr. Karadzic is reading

25 from Lazete 2. It's 65 ter 11151 and page 14 in e-court.

Page 22762

1 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

2 MR. MITCHELL: And that's section VIII, the grave and its

3 properties.

4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, but the title of both documents on the same

5 page was identical. That's the reason of confusion. Thank you.

6 Is this it, Mr. Karadzic?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope that it is and I think that

8 it's instructive and we should keep it on the screen for a while.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. So do you agree that it states here that below the -- "large

11 pieces of turf, top-soil, and clay were found under and directly over the

12 bodies within the grave. The mixed nature of the soil grave fill and the

13 disorganised interment of the bodies was probably the result of the

14 bodies being pushed into the grave ..." and so on.

15 How does the thesis seem to you, Mr. Peccerelli, that the bodies

16 were gathered up from a surface whereby the machinery also caught up

17 pieces of turf that happened to be below and above the bodies? Are you

18 able to rule this out?

19 A. If I understand correctly, I think we are saying exactly the same

20 thing. I'm saying that these bodies were on the surface and were pushed

21 into the grave, and that that took some of the -- you see -- on this

22 picture you can see how there is a mound of dirt in the background. When

23 you dig a grave you have to displace the -- to make the hole you have to

24 take the dirt out of it. So there's a combination. Let's say the bodies

25 were laying left of this grave and then they were pushed in, you were --

Page 22763

1 you're going to take some of the top-soil and some of the soil that was

2 excavated along with the bodies if you use machinery. It's different

3 than when you use -- when you place them in the grave manually when you

4 would only pick up the bodies and place them usually in order and usually

5 with no --

6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Why don't we lower the picture to

7 see the entire picture. Yes.

8 Please continue, Mr. Peccerelli.

9 THE WITNESS: Oh, I think I'm done. Thank you, Your Honour.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Thank you. How can we rule out and can we rule out a loader

12 gathering the bodies from the surface, whereby also it would catch turf

13 below and above the bodies. So it would not be bodies pushed in but

14 being gathered from different locations and transported together? How

15 can you rule that out? Because pushing does not necessarily mean that

16 turf would be disturbed that is below the bodies. A loader with a very

17 sharp bucket definitely would collect or pick up turf.

18 A. I -- what you're describing specifically is exactly what I'm

19 saying. Obviously I cannot rule it out. That is the same exact

20 mechanism whether it be a bulldozer or a front-loader. Both machines

21 have the capacity to turn over top-soil and pick it up and then are

22 delicate enough to only pick up the bodies. So that can happen.

23 Obviously the evidence here not only within the grave but around the

24 grave suggests that there was shooting going on in this specific place

25 and, you know, because of its isolated location it would be logical to

Page 22764

1 think that the bodies in the grave came from the surface.

2 Q. But also there is the possibility that they came from a different

3 one; is that right?

4 A. I guess the possibility does exist, however remote it might seem

5 contemplating the whole investigation.

6 Q. Are you able to tell us what does it mean that a place is a

7 multiple mass primary interment site of human remains?

8 A. Yes, once again, this is a -- what that means by definition is a

9 grave. Primary which means that it was -- for the first time that

10 location was being used to deposit bodies into it. Multiple bodies means

11 that there were more than one. There is no specific number. In this

12 case you would have to look at how many bodies the PHR exhumations

13 collected. We only collected 16 bodies and I believe 26 body parts from

14 this exhumation, but that's -- that's what it means, that there was --

15 this was a hole that was created and turned into a grave when multiple

16 bodies were placed into it.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at that part of the

18 text in English on the screen so that we can see how this "multiple"

19 looks in English. Can we look at the text.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Before that, Mr. Peccerelli, what did you follow when you were

22 excavating? What did you follow -- [In English] Just a moment.

23 "The grave is a multiple mass primary interment site of human

24 remains ..."

25 "Multiple."

Page 22765

1 [Interpretation] Does that not mean that the burial was carried

2 out in several goes?

3 A. I can see how there is a misunderstanding but that's not what I

4 meant. What I meant was that this was a primary mass grave, and in this

5 specific case you have to remember that there was four different

6 excavations on this site. The original or primary excavation of the

7 site; the later robbing excavation of the site; the later PHR

8 excavations, which were two; and then finally the excavation we carried

9 out in 2000.

10 Q. But it's still not clear to me why you use the term "multiple"

11 instead of mass grave.

12 A. "Multiple" meaning more than one body, same thing as "mass." I

13 did not mean several different interments. That would not be -- see, the

14 terms are contradictory. You cannot have in a primary grave multiple

15 because the repeating excavation into a primary grave would make a

16 secondary interment.

17 Q. And how would you describe or call a grave where for the first

18 time in several stages a number of bodies are buried and bodies are

19 added? How would you refer to that type of grave?

20 A. Well, the original grave would be a primary grave with secondary

21 interment into it, and each one of those secondary interments would be

22 described as a secondary excavation and a secondary deposit of human

23 remains into it. They would be considered disturbances of the primary

24 grave.

25 Q. Even though these additional bodies would be buried for the first

Page 22766

1 and only time, you would still refer to it as a secondary grave even

2 though those bodies that were additionally buried would actually be

3 buried for the first and only time; is that correct?

4 A. The term "primary" refers to the incursion into the soil, not the

5 body itself. So you're talking about the excavation being the primary

6 excavation. Any excavation you conduct into an existing grave would be a

7 secondary one and the patterns of it are very different. So you can

8 deposit a body for the first time, but if you open an existing primary

9 grave you will be conducting a secondary interment.

10 Q. Mr. Peccerelli, I'm a doctor, and from what I know, secondary

11 burial means that one body was buried in one place and then reburied.

12 How is this possible that your terminology is different from mine? A

13 secondary grave means that the body was transferred from another place

14 and buried for the second time. Yes or no?

15 A. You see, we are talking about different things. You're talking

16 about bodies being removed and then reburied in a different place. I'm

17 talking about incursions into a primary grave which is something that we

18 don't see here so you're talking about something that did not occur. We

19 don't have any secondary disturbances of the primary excavation here.

20 What we have is a single event with posterior disturbances of the grave

21 to extract bodies not to put bodies in them.

22 Q. And how do you explain the surface layer between certain bodies?

23 There would be a layer of bodies, then there would be a layer of surface

24 or top-soil, then a thin layer of top-soil, then another layer of bodies.

25 If not by additional burial, how do you explain that this top-soil layer

Page 22767

1 was over one set of bodies and below another set of bodies?

2 A. Once again, they are not layers, they are pieces. They are

3 pieces of turf, top-soil. These are not stratography layers that cover

4 an entire area. These are just pieces of turf and top-soil and clay.

5 Again, I explain it by the same definition you gave, machinery

6 picking up bodies and taking top-soil and pieces of clay with it and then

7 throwing them into the grave, pushing them into the grave.

8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I note the time. It's time -- about

9 time to take a break now, and given that we have a somewhat longer break

10 due to technical difficulties and that we have about three hours from now

11 on until the end of today, so we are minded to have two short breaks,

12 i.e., two half-an-hour breaks and with two one-hour sessions. I hope

13 that would be okay with the staff. Okay. We'll do that.

14 We'll take a half-an-hour break now and resume at 12.30.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Peccerelli, when did you carry out this exhumation?

21 A. We began on the 13th of July, 2000, all the way to the

22 8th of August of the same year. Yeah, between the 13th of July to the

23 8th of August.

24 Q. Thank you. Who was the man in charge during that exhumation?

25 Who was the main person there, if you will?

Page 22768

1 A. You mean from ICTY?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. The team leader at the time was Brian Strongman. He is, I think,

4 a retired Canadian Mounted Police if I'm not mistaken.

5 Q. In paragraph 4 you say that a senior forensic archaeologist

6 appointed a supervisor. Who were the two in this particular case?

7 A. In this particular case, since I was the deputy in an absence of

8 Richard Wright who was contracted as the senior forensic archaeologist

9 for the entire season, I was the acting senior forensic archaeologist and

10 I assigned different archaeologists to be the co-ordinator at the site.

11 Q. Who did you appoint as the supervisor?

12 A. The senior archaeologists all got a chance to be supervisors.

13 So, for example, Ian Hanson, Claudia Rivera, Jon Sterenberg,

14 Gaille McKinnon as well. There is a list of the people who participated

15 in the team, and we had senior personnel and junior personnel. The four

16 people that I mentioned, Claudia Rivera, Gaille McKinnon, Ian Hanson and

17 Jon Sterenberg, were the co-ordinators or the supervisors at the grave.

18 Q. Could you please cast a glance at chapter V, where you say in

19 paragraph 4 that the senior forensic archaeologist shall appoint an

20 exhumation supervisor, shall direct the excavators within the grave. Who

21 was that?

22 A. Once again, one week it was Claudia Rivera, another week it was

23 Jon Sterenberg, Gaille McKinnon and Ian Hanson.

24 Q. I see. Thank you. Are you the first and only ones who dealt

25 with Lazete 2?

Page 22769

1 A. No and no. We were not the first and we were not the only ones.

2 Q. Thank you. Who, when, and to what extent worked before you at

3 that location?

4 A. From limited knowledge I have, it was a team of Physicians for

5 Human Rights led by Dr. Bill Haglund sometime in 1996. To what extent, I

6 believe they only worked in two areas of grave -- of Lazete 2. They

7 found two body concentrations there.

8 Q. Aha. And then after that, four years after that, you worked

9 there; right?

10 A. That is correct, four years after that I worked there.

11 Q. Thank you. Did you describe that in your report, namely, that

12 you came after this intervention, or rather, after this work of Doctors

13 for Human Rights, Dr. Haglund, Dr. Kirschner and so on?

14 A. I believe so. I would have to find it, if you give me a second.

15 That would be on page 2 of the Lazete report, in the summary findings,

16 section (f).

17 "In 1996, the PHR exhumation team conducted an investigation at

18 this very site. They identified two graves, they named these Lazete 2A

19 and Lazete 2 B."

20 Q. And what happened then? Do you know that under the supervision

21 of Dr. Kirschner an exhumation was carried out and conclusions were drawn

22 up in relation to the cause and mode of death as well as a revision of

23 the final autopsy findings?

24 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer.

25 Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

Page 22770

1 MR. MITCHELL: If I can just clarify the question. I think the

2 evidence is Dr. Haglund was in charge of the exhumation. Dr. Kirschner

3 was the chief pathologist at the morgue. So if that could just be

4 clarified.

5 JUDGE KWON: Are you content with that clarification,

6 Mr. Karadzic?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I can understand that from

8 the documents that I see before me and that I'm going to tender when

9 Dr. Haglund comes. However, this is what I'm interested in.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Did you know that at that point in time exhumations were carried

12 out and that autopsies were carried out and that autopsy reports were

13 drawn up that were revised with the assistance of Mr. McCloskey, the

14 legal advisor of the Tribunal?

15 A. I had knowledge of the exhumations and I guess it's logical for

16 them to have rendered reports, but that's as far as I know.

17 Q. Thank you. How does that affect your work?

18 A. Which part?

19 Q. Lazete 2, is that the same location or not?

20 A. No -- yes, of course it is. If you mean -- I mean how does the

21 report affect my work or how does the excavation affect my work?

22 Q. How does their excavation affect your conclusions on layers,

23 positions, and so on? So somebody touched the grave four years before

24 you did, under conditions of heavy rainfall, bad weather in general, and

25 so on, and then after that, you draw conclusions about the content of the

Page 22771

1 soil there and so on and so forth.

2 A. Yes, okay. Actually, as I mentioned earlier, this grave, it was

3 37.7 metres in length. When the PHR team exhumed, they did not -- as I

4 understand it, they did not conduct a surface recovery or a removal of

5 the top-soil or the layer on top of the grave. What they did was -- I

6 believe was trench and when they did that they found two accumulations of

7 bodies and they named these Lazete 2A and B. The way we dealt with that

8 was we had the initial excavation of the grave. Then you have the

9 robbing excavations. Then you have the PHR excavations. And then you

10 have our excavations. And these are clearly marked in the report. And

11 simply what we did was describe what we found. What they had done was

12 similar to the robbing excavations except they were more thorough because

13 they removed the bodies by hand, they exhumed these bodies by hand,

14 whereas during the subsequent robbing excavations they were removed by

15 machinery and created body parts and also segmented some of the bodies

16 that were left.

17 If you allow me, I'll show you what page is this on.

18 JUDGE KWON: How about page 16, e-court 17?

19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that --

20 JUDGE KWON: Could you explain it.

21 THE WITNESS: Yes.

22 JUDGE KWON: Just -- yes. It will be coming up. If necessary,

23 you can mark the drawings here.

24 THE WITNESS: Okay. The initial grave was the entire extent.

25 This is what we call Lazete 2C, which is [marks].

Page 22772

1 Then you have robbing excavations A, which occurred here, and B

2 which occurred here. The PHR team located --

3 JUDGE KWON: Shall we change the colour now to blue.

4 THE WITNESS: Sure. They excavated this area here and this area

5 here, from which I believe or at least I was told there they recovered

6 complete bodies. So what you have here is similar to what you had in

7 Lazete 1, that there was removal of bodies and segmentation in the

8 two areas marked in red, but the two areas marked in green, the bodies

9 were not removed and they were found complete. Those are the two areas

10 that the Physicians for Human Rights team exhumed in 1996, and we later

11 took out -- again using the stratographic method took out the contents of

12 the grave and left the profile of the grave. That's how we can find

13 those features. Shall I ...?

14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please.

15 THE WITNESS: And if you want, I can also do this.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. So if I understand this correctly, there were two exhumations in

18 this grave before you came there. However, did they cover up the grave

19 after that or did they just leave it open?

20 A. When we found it, the grave was covered.

21 JUDGE KWON: Yeah, that marked diagram will be admitted as D1990.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. So before you there were at least two excavations and possibly

25 some unauthorised excavation. Does that mean that you came to a grave

Page 22773

1 where there had been different physical manipulations and that then you

2 drew your own conclusions?

3 A. That is correct.

4 Q. Thank you. Did you know that there had been an investigation

5 about that first one. C.E. Moore, have you heard of that person who

6 worked with Dr. Kirschner and Dr. Haglund? I don't know if it's a lady

7 or a gentleman, but this person did take part in this excavation in 1996.

8 A. I'm sorry, I wasn't there in 1996. I don't know who you're

9 talking about.

10 Q. Have you heard of professional challenges, disputes, conflicts in

11 relation to Lazete 2 and that there had been some investigation that had

12 been carried out among an association of pathologists or something like

13 that in America?

14 A. No. The only thing I heard prior to the excavation in Lazete 2

15 during the excavation of Lazete 1 was that someone from the original team

16 said that there was still bodies in that grave and that they wanted it to

17 be exhumed. That's it.

18 JUDGE BAIRD: Doctor, now you mentioned, Doctor, that you drew

19 your conclusions when you came to the grave where there had been

20 different physical manipulations.

21 THE WITNESS: Yes.

22 JUDGE BAIRD: Now, would this have affected your conclusion in

23 any way at all?

24 THE WITNESS: Well, what we can see was that there had been

25 interventions into the grave and that was documented. But, you know, in

Page 22774

1 the end what we concluded that this grave had been disturbed several

2 times and we concluded more on our findings and less on what was not

3 there. So, in other words, the original contents of this grave I -- I

4 cannot testify to. I don't know how many bodies were exhumed by the

5 Physicians for Human Rights team nor do I know how many bodies were taken

6 away from those two robbing areas. But from the size of this grave, it

7 is a substantial-sized grave, there was probably a lot of bodies in

8 there.

9 Would it have affected -- I mean, obviously if I would have

10 excavated this grave before any of this had happened, the results would

11 have been different because the findings would have been different. I

12 don't know if that answers the question.

13 JUDGE BAIRD: Thank you.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Did you know that during that first excavation when the

16 conclusions were being formulated, Mr. Peter McCloskey, who represented

17 the OTP, took part in that drafting process?

18 A. No, I don't know that -- I didn't hear anything about that.

19 Q. Thank you. And did you hear of this investigation carried out in

20 San Antonio in relation to the first exhumation of 1996?

21 A. I'm sorry, I haven't heard of any such investigation --

22 Q. [In English] Inquiry, sort of inquiry and -- [Interpretation] You

23 haven't heard of that; right?

24 A. No, personally, no. I don't know what it pertains to.

25 Q. This first exhumation from 1996 was professionally contested and

Page 22775

1 led to professional disputes within the ranks of that team from 1996, and

2 all of this led to an inquiry in San Antonio and a professional debate as

3 well. I'm not aware of the ultimate conclusions reached, but I certainly

4 know that this had been investigated. Now, was it a court of honour or

5 something like that, but anyway, there was this debate in San Antonio and

6 there was a professional dispute with regard to that team.

7 A. Is there a question?

8 Q. Well, you asked me to explain what this was all about. So it

9 means that that first team worked and then that led to a dispute --

10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the witness said he didn't know.

11 Let's carry on.

12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. But my understanding

14 was that the witness wanted me to clarify what it was that I meant. [In

15 English] "I don't know what pertains to." [Interpretation] Line 4,

16 page 50, and that led me to try to explain.

17 Could we have the previous page now, the one with the photograph.

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. What was it that you followed in the case of this grave? What

20 was it that you followed in order to get to this shape?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the previous page. Can

22 somebody please help me with this.

23 JUDGE KWON: Page 16, Lazete 2.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. This one is different from the one we had had in colour. Tell

Page 22776

1 me, what was it that you followed? I mean, how did you -- yes.

2 A. Okay. As I mentioned earlier, what we do is a stratographic

3 excavation. In other words, we excavate -- we remove the contents of the

4 grave strata by strata from the inside and we do this by separating the

5 fill from the original soil. Now, what you see here on the walls is the

6 original -- some of it is the original grave, others is parts that have

7 been altered by robbing excavations. And you can see this on the left

8 side where there's actual pieces that were taken away. If you want I can

9 mark more or less where by -- you can see within those are machine marks

10 made as they were taking parts of the grave away. And the parts that are

11 higher, where the bodies are, are the ones that were left behind. This

12 is the same methodology we used in Lazete 1. And the difference is that

13 the fill is loose, so it's fairly easy to remove.

14 Q. Thank you. What I meant was actually how you got the idea to

15 move in this direction and how to dig such a deep trench, if you will.

16 Were you guided by the previous excavation of 1996 or something else in

17 that effort?

18 A. Sorry -- no, actually what we did was we took the top layer off

19 and we could see the outline of the grave in the ground. We then

20 proceeded to extract, take away, excavate the fill from within the grave

21 and we took it away, we removed it, as far down as there was fill, in

22 other words, till we found the original or virgin soil of the region.

23 Q. Thank you. A moment ago you mentioned that the previous team in

24 1996 had found some bodies in a trench. How was it that you ruled out

25 the possibility of that having been a combat position during one of those

Page 22777

1 44 months and that it was then used for a burial?

2 A. Once again, I didn't know about the 44 months you mentioned, so

3 it wasn't something I had to rule out. And I was told that the PHR team

4 had worked there and we were more or less given the locations of where

5 they worked. So what the new findings were, whether these were not two

6 separate graves but they were part of one larger grave.

7 JUDGE KWON: Just wait.

8 Mr. Karadzic or Mr. Mitchell, do you think we need to keep this

9 marked photo?

10 MR. MITCHELL: It might be safe just to make sense of the

11 transcript, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE KWON: Very well. That's sensible. Yes, we'll keep as the

13 next Defence exhibit, Exhibit D1991 [Realtime transcript read in error

14 "1999"]. Yes.

15 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. What about this, where is the water-pipe that you referred to?

19 Was it in this grave?

20 A. There is another water-pipe in this grave as well. I could show

21 you in the picture. You can actually see it in two places. If you look

22 at the picture on the cover.

23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24 THE WITNESS: And also on page 12 of the report. You might want

25 to look at page 12 of the report initially and then you can see the

Page 22778

1 picture.

2 JUDGE KWON: The first page of this report. Or page 12, yes.

3 E-court page 13, I take it. 14? Did you refer to this diagram?

4 THE WITNESS: Yes. You can see -- may I mark it?

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please. Did you push the button? Yes.

6 THE WITNESS: This was the water-pipe here and it's cut off right

7 about there by the grave and then it gets reconnected up top. But that's

8 the original -- that's the one running right above the line I made. And

9 you can visually see it in the photograph that's on the cover.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Thank you. And what is this diagonal line that we see, but I

12 don't see the marking that lies north to east? What does that line

13 indicate?

14 A. Should I change the colour?

15 JUDGE KWON: Change the colour, yes. Let us change the colour,

16 yes.

17 THE WITNESS: If that's the one you mean, that's the reconnection

18 of the water-pipe. Once it was severed by the grave, it had to be

19 reconnected up top. So it's another water-pipe.

20 JUDGE KWON: So it's not legible very much. It says "new pipe."

21 Is it correct?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes.

23 JUDGE KWON: And then the -- on the old pipe you wrote down "pipe

24 out" in both places? The characters are so small. It reads --

25 THE WITNESS: It says "new pipe" and "pipe" --

Page 22779

1 JUDGE KWON: "Out."

2 THE WITNESS: -- "out."

3 JUDGE KWON: And "pipe disconnected," how does it read? With an

4 arrow -- left to the arrow.

5 THE WITNESS: "Reconnected."

6 JUDGE KWON: "Pipes reconnected." Thank you.

7 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Before we save this, could I ask you to mark this ditch that you

10 mentioned, saying that the first team had found some bodies in that

11 ditch.

12 A. Oh, they marked two trenches which they did directly over the

13 grave. You can't see them, let's see, because they were extracted as

14 they removed the bodies.

15 Q. Thank you. And then can we please save this if it cannot be

16 marked. I would like to draw your attention now to --

17 JUDGE KWON: So did you refer to Lazete 2A and B?

18 THE WITNESS: Yeah.

19 JUDGE KWON: So you can mark the places here without any

20 difficulty.

21 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

22 JUDGE KWON: If you could mark A and B as well.

23 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That will be admitted as Exhibit D1992.

25 I note the previous one was 1991, not 1999.

Page 22780

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Can we mark where this ditch or trench was, to the north or in a

3 different place, this part where they found the two bodies?

4 A. I think you're mistaken. The two bodies that were found in the

5 drainage ditch were in Lazete 1. This is Lazete 2. We only found bodies

6 inside the grave here.

7 Q. [Microphone not activated] Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I'm

8 talking about the two ditches that you mentioned that had to do with the

9 excavations from 1996 and which cannot be seen now. Do you know the

10 position? Was that below the grave or above the grave?

11 A. From -- I don't know the position, but if that's -- if the way

12 they found the two body concentrations were through trenching, then those

13 trenches are invisible because they were expanded into areas of the grave

14 and can only be seen by the -- by the areas where the grave extends

15 outside of its original form. Which can be seen in page 16 which we saw

16 earlier.

17 Q. Very well. Thank you. Can I now ask you to look at chapter IV

18 about the artefacts that were found in the grave and around the grave.

19 You say that shells were found, live rounds, bullets, ribbons, hand

20 watches, soil samples, parts of pipes, documents, bags with clothing, and

21 all other artefacts that were not found with the bodies themselves. And

22 you say that 830 such objects were found in this operation. Is that

23 correct?

24 A. I'm afraid it's not this section. I don't know where it is.

25 Maybe VI?

Page 22781

1 JUDGE KWON: No, do you see in front of you in the monitor,

2 that's page 6 of your second report, Lazete 2, artefacts.

3 THE WITNESS: Let's see. Yes.

4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. This corresponds to what I have in front of me.

6 A. Yes, yes. I've got it, yes. Yes. This is correct.

7 Q. Thank you. And 830 items were found that were recorded in the

8 evidence log. Is that correct?

9 A. Let me look for a second. Yes, 830 artefacts.

10 Q. Thank you. Using metal detectors and visually you found and were

11 able to see shell casings in the grave and around the grave. However,

12 you found a much larger number, and if you look at section VI, a large

13 number of shell cases, 671, more shell cases than live rounds. You

14 recovered only 46 of those. My thesis is that we cannot rule out that

15 this place was defensive position, a location where there was combat,

16 from where there was firing at another location, isn't that right, that

17 this option cannot be ruled out? We have trenches, we have shell cases,

18 we have bullets, we have watches, we have documents, we have thus

19 something that a prisoner of war would not have on him but a fighter

20 would?

21 A. No, can't be ruled out I guess. Once again I think you would

22 have to look at the entire investigation in the multi-disciplinary

23 approach. This is one part of the investigation where we did find shell

24 cases that were on surface, maybe just below the surface, and that's with

25 the metal detectors. And yes, I do agree that this was a place where

Page 22782

1 firing did occur.

2 Q. Thank you. And then the number of shells -- shell cases was

3 15 times greater than the number of bullets that were found. Is that

4 correct?

5 A. I didn't do the math. There was 46 bullets and 20 live rounds,

6 something along that line, yeah.

7 Q. Thank you. Would you agree that the victims had a certain number

8 of wrist-watches, pocket-watches, documents, and some personal

9 belongings?

10 A. Yes, I would.

11 Q. Thank you. Did any of your hosts or those who were providing you

12 with information, did they inform you that it is customary in our culture

13 that a prisoner of war cannot have any valuables or personal documents

14 because that could be used in order to bribe guards, to escape, and so on

15 and so forth?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Thank you. May I now draw your attention to Lazete 1, where in F

18 of the summary you concluded that that was the primary interment site of

19 human remains. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In paragraph E [as interpreted] you also mention in two places

22 unauthorised digging. Do you have information as to who did that and for

23 what reason, what was the purpose?

24 A. I'm sorry, could you tell me where again?

25 JUDGE KWON: I take it it's I.

Page 22783

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

2 THE WITNESS: According to the information I was given and the

3 image I was shown, which is once again one of the aerial images, I was

4 told that Serbian forces came and exhumed or robbed or moved, tried to

5 remove the bodies from the original graves.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Who told you that?

8 A. Investigators, ICMP -- ICTY investigators.

9 Q. Did any Serbs at all take part in this providing of information?

10 Did you get anything from Serbs on that topic or were the only source of

11 information the Muslims?

12 A. I did not get any primary information from any witnesses. All

13 the information was given to the investigators and the information was

14 given to me by investigators. So I never had contact with any of the

15 witnesses or informants.

16 Q. Thank you. You were not permanently employed at the OTP, while

17 the investigators were; is that correct?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. Thank you. And did any members of the Defence have access to you

20 to tell you whatever it is that they had to tell you or was it just the

21 OTP?

22 A. Well, this was on the site in 2000, so at that time no one from

23 the Defence. I was in the ground on this location so there was no one

24 from the Defence there.

25 Q. Nor was anyone there on behalf of Republika Srpska or

Page 22784

1 representing the Serbian side in the conflict; is that correct?

2 A. The only personnel there was US military personnel and ICTY

3 exhumation team and a demining team, as well as the investigators I

4 mentioned earlier.

5 Q. Thank you. A water-pipe was severed also in this grave; is that

6 correct? This is item VII.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Three bodies with ligatures were found and a

9 substantial number of strips of fabric which you called probable

10 blindfolds. There were 37 such strips of fabric. You, I think, also

11 found some strips which had fallen from the heads, whereas there were

12 only three ligatures; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that is correct.

14 Q. This is (p). And then in item (q) it said that you found

15 ten wrist-watches, three pocket-watches, and three identification

16 documents as well as in total of the 593 artefacts, 456 were shell cases,

17 nine live rounds, and 19 bullets. Did you have any conclusion as to this

18 difference between 19 and 456?

19 A. No, I did not.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 Probably you don't know -- well, I guess this could be maybe a

22 superfluous question. You didn't know about the combat, but I guess you

23 don't know either which side, at what point in time, was in control of

24 that particular area. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes. As I mentioned before, I had no prior knowledge of combat

Page 22785

1 in the area.

2 Q. Thank you. As one of the conclusions that a certain location,

3 specifically Lazete 1 and Lazete 2, you were able to connect with

4 Srebrenica, you referred to the fact that a factor would be whether some

5 people from Srebrenica were or were not in any particular grave. As to

6 the 28th Division, which had a number of independent battalions and five

7 brigades, did you know exactly in which area this unit waged battle?

8 JUDGE KWON: Not for this witness, Mr. Karadzic.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, Your Honour,

10 the witness himself mentioned that if somebody was from Srebrenica then

11 it must be that there was an execution there. However, the combat zone

12 of the Srebrenica 28th Division included all of that area, practically

13 reaching to Bijeljina, up to Kalesija in any case, between Kalesija and

14 Tuzla bordering with Srebrenica --

15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic --

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- that brigade waged battle.

17 JUDGE KWON: Witness said he didn't know the combat situation at

18 the time. You will have another opportunity to tender that evidence to

19 the Chamber, and based upon that evidence you can make your submission.

20 But it's a waste of time asking that question to this witness, who said

21 he didn't know.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All I wanted was to indicate that

23 the conclusion would look different had the witness known that the

24 brigade fought all over that area. But since you think that that is a

25 waste of time, I think that all that is left to me is that actually just

Page 22796

1 including Major Nikolic and the VRS civilian affairs officer

2 Miroslav Deronjic. During the negotiations, Professor Koljevic was also

3 called. On the 18th of July, the wounded were evacuated by the ICRC and

4 a few days later the Colonel left Srebrenica along with MSF, DutchBat,

5 and the local staff.

6 Mr. President, that concludes my summary.

7 Q. Colonel Kingori, when did you retire from the Kenyan Air Force?

8 A. Your Honour, I retired in August 2007.

9 Q. And after that, for what organisation did you work?

10 A. Your Honour, after retiring from the Kenya Air Force I joined the

11 National Disaster Operations Centre as the deputy director.

12 Q. And can you explain to us what your role was there, what your job

13 was?

14 A. Your Honour, the role -- our roles at the National Disaster

15 Operations Centre was to monitor and co-ordinate disaster management,

16 that includes training and response and also risk reduction in the whole

17 country.

18 Q. Sir, when did you finish your contract there?

19 A. Your Honour, my contract was for four years, which ended last

20 year in August.

21 Q. And what do you do now?

22 A. Right now, Your Honour, I'm working together with the

23 Moi University, that is the local university, in training of disaster --

24 district disaster management committees on disaster management in their

25 local areas.

Page 22797

1 Q. Colonel, we understand that from March 1995 until July 1995 you

2 were a United Nations Military Observer in Srebrenica. Can you tell us

3 generally the duties of a military observer?

4 A. Your Honour, the duties of a military observer are diverse, but

5 most of the apparent ones that we had was the monitoring of the violation

6 to the cease-fire agreement that was already in place and also ensuring

7 that those who were coming in to bring in aid, that is, in terms of food,

8 water, through UN agencies like UNHCR, were getting a clearance to get

9 into the enclave and also were assisted in getting out of the enclave

10 safely. That is just a few among many others that we had.

11 Also I think it's important to bring one more, that is bringing

12 the warring factions together through holding of meetings together in

13 with different functions. And then whatever we are told from this side

14 we inform the other side so that we can bridge the gap between the two

15 and so that we could be able to bring them together.

16 Q. Sir, in paragraph 5 of your statement, it's noted that military

17 observers were never armed. Can you tell us why this is so?

18 A. Your Honour, in terms it is difficult to explain, but normally a

19 military observer in any UN mission is never armed. The reason being if

20 you're not armed, you are able to go to any area without fear that

21 somebody might harm you because of the weapon you have or the other

22 person fearing that you might harm them in case you have a weapon. So

23 you have a free way of going to either side of the warring factions

24 without fear at all. That is the main reason. But also it's good to

25 note that we used to have a book and a pen on which to write notes that

Page 22798

1 we could see on the ground or hear or even investigate which through both

2 their functions it was a very strong weapon in that whatever we wrote was

3 taken very seriously by the UN system.

4 Q. Colonel, in order to become a military observer, what minimal

5 level of experience must a candidate have?

6 A. Your Honour, first and foremost, to be a military observer you

7 must be a senior military officer. Here we are talking about from the

8 rank of major and above, and you had to have -- for you to have reached

9 that rank you definitely must have served for ten years in the military.

10 So for sure you had to be a senior and experienced officer because

11 whatever judgement that you were going to make in the field could have a

12 lot of repercussions and also you are expected to make judgements

13 according to your experience and knowledge that you already have.

14 MS. WEST: May we have 65 ter 19423, please.

15 Q. Colonel, after you left Srebrenica, were you and the other two

16 military observers debriefed?

17 A. Yes, Your Honour, we were debriefed in UNMO headquarters in

18 Zagreb.

19 Q. Can you tell us the name of the other two observers who were with

20 you?

21 A. The other two observers, Your Honour, were Major David Tetteh

22 from Ghana and Major Andre de Haan from Holland.

23 Q. Now, we see the document in front of us and if we look at

24 paragraph 2, it notes that there were three of you and it also says that

25 the Kenyan officer took the lead role in the debriefing. Is that

Page 22799

1 referring to you, sir?

2 A. Your Honour, it does.

3 Q. Now if we can go to the next page, please, and we're going to go

4 to paragraph 4 and this is a paragraph that talks about the VRS take-over

5 of OP Echo. And just for the record, Colonel Kingori, in front of you is

6 also a copy of this document if that makes it any easier for you.

7 Actually physically, it's one of those pieces of paper. Paragraph 4

8 refers to OP Echo but it notes that OP Echo took place on the

9 3rd of July. Is that the correct date of the overthrow of OP Echo?

10 A. Your Honour, it was on the 3rd but not of July. I remember very

11 well and it is in my notes that it was in June, that is, the previous

12 month.

13 Q. What was the significance of the road upon which OP Echo was

14 located?

15 A. Your Honour, this was a very important road that led to the

16 southern side of the enclave through an area we used to call Zeleni Jadar

17 and which had some mineral deposits, that is, bauxite, and also there

18 were some factories in that area including a timber factory, and it was

19 one of the vantage points that any military would have wanted to occupy.

20 Q. Colonel, as a result of the BSA successful attack on OP Echo,

21 what was the response by DutchBat?

22 A. Your Honour, DutchBat tried to hold that place but they could not

23 be able to hold so they moved backwards a bit because the BSA could have

24 attacked them at any time, so they moved behind and left the OP.

25 Q. I'm now going to move to paragraph 9, which is the following

Page 22800

1 page, and this talks about OP Foxtrot and firing on the town of

2 Srebrenica. Were you in Srebrenica on July 9th?

3 A. Yes, Your Honour, I was in Srebrenica on July 9th.

4 Q. And, in fact, we're going to talk about the days before when you

5 were there as well. You describe extensively the shelling in your

6 statement. But in this debriefing you also described the inhabitants of

7 Srebrenica being paralysed and confused. Can you tell us what you meant

8 by that?

9 A. This was due to the shelling that was going on, in that the BSA

10 were shelling both outside the town and later on inside the town, so it

11 caused a lot of confusion which actually could have been the main aim of

12 the shelling, to make sure that everybody is confused. So they did not

13 know what to do or where to go and there was a lot of confusion. We

14 could see it inside the village.

15 Q. And as a result of that confusion, did you see people running all

16 over the place?

17 A. Your Honour, that was the most evident thing, in that people were

18 running all over, they didn't know where to go, where to hide, what to

19 do. And so we could see it and then there was a lot of fear in their

20 eyes and everything, but of course it was caused by the shelling that was

21 still ongoing.

22 Q. And at paragraph 11, a little bit further down, you noted that:

23 "The BSA knew of this weakness in the chain of command and timed

24 their attack to exploit it."

25 Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this weakness in the chain of

Page 22801

1 command was.

2 A. Your Honour, there were several significant things that had

3 happened and one of them was the accident that the Chief of Staff Ramiz

4 Becirovic had. There was an air crash and we were told by the BSA in a

5 meeting that they called us through Colonel Vukovic that there was a

6 crash, and later on, when we investigated, we found that it's true, there

7 was an incident and Ramiz Becirovic, who was the Chief of Staff, was

8 injured. And also we were being told about the rumour of Naser Oric

9 being around and that he was confusing the leadership of the whole ABiH.

10 So I think they were weak at that particular moment, in that there was no

11 proper leadership.

12 Q. I'd now like to move to paragraph 18, which is on the following

13 page, and this discusses shelling in Srebrenica from July 6 until the

14 town fell. Was there any pattern to the shelling that you observed?

15 A. Your Honour, we noted a pattern that was there --

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Suggestive, leading. This witness

17 is eloquent as it is, why lead him?

18 JUDGE KWON: Ms. West just referred to the paragraph 18 which

19 refers to a pattern. I don't think it's a leading question.

20 Please proceed.

21 Do you remember the question, Colonel Kingori?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, I do. Your Honour, we had noted

23 a pattern in that the BSA could shell over a certain period, then stop,

24 and later on after a few moments start shelling again. And we found that

25 to be a bit interesting. To us it was advantage, yes, in that there was

Page 22802

1 a time that we could go into the town, do crater analysis, and come back

2 safely, also collect those who were injured and those who had been killed

3 and take them to hospital. And also get time to inform the locals that

4 they should stay indoors and not get out so that they can not be harmed.

5 So the pattern was there and we utilised it positively.

6 MS. WEST:

7 Q. Colonel, what date did you leave Srebrenica?

8 A. Your Honour, we left I think on the 9th.

9 Q. And after the 9th, did the shelling continue in Srebrenica?

10 A. Yes, Your Honour. The shelling continued.

11 Q. How did you know that?

12 A. Your Honour, while in Potocari we could be able to hear the

13 shells landing and also overflying our place and especially the rockets,

14 at least we knew where the rocket-launcher was, it was just next to

15 Potocari. And secondly, we had our own interpreter whom we had sent to

16 Srebrenica to go and monitor what is happening -- what was happening in

17 that area. So he could also give us the reports of what was happening in

18 Srebrenica and the surrounding areas.

19 Q. I'd like to move to paragraph 25, it's the following page. And

20 this is talking about July 11th in the compound itself. On the 11th

21 that's where you were located; right?

22 A. Yes, Your Honour.

23 Q. And by the end of the day on the 11th, can you give an estimate

24 about how many people converged in Potocari?

25 A. Your Honour, around that time we had about from about 3.000 to

Page 22803

1 3.500. The figure obviously may not be very correct but around that

2 figure had already streamed into Potocari.

3 Q. And does that include the number of the people on the outside of

4 the compound as well?

5 A. No, Your Honour. Those were the people who were walking in --

6 into the factory. There were others who had to be kept outside because

7 the factory could not be able to hold everybody.

8 Q. And if you know, do you have an estimation of how many people

9 were on the outside of the compound?

10 A. Finally, Your Honour, we had a figure of between 5 and 7 outside,

11 but there were estimates which were going up to 10.000 depending on the

12 kind of people who were doing the estimates. Because we had the UNHCR

13 doing it, we had the IOM, we had other agencies who were doing it, but we

14 knew the figure to have been about between 5.000 and 7.000.

15 Q. Now, at the end of this paragraph you had indicated that there

16 was a massive refugee problem to deal with. Can you please tell the

17 Trial Chamber what it was that made you come to that conclusion.

18 A. Your Honour, DutchBat -- one thing I can say is that DutchBat was

19 the main supplier of our food and water and even diesel. So there

20 already were strains because they were not being allowed to bring in

21 these items into the enclave by the BSA, they were not giving them a

22 clearance to bring it in. And so when you bring in refugees, when you

23 add refugees now to this problem you find it was very difficult to

24 manage. It was a humanitarian catastrophe in that we did not have enough

25 water, we did not have enough food and even shelter for these refugees in

Page 22804

1 that place.

2 Q. Colonel, can you tell us who Petar was?

3 A. Your Honour, Petar was our interpreter from the BSA side.

4 Q. And how often did you work with him?

5 A. Your Honour, Petar -- we used to call him whenever we needed him

6 or whenever he wanted to convey something to us like maybe a request for

7 a meeting with the BSA. And because he had a radio, a UN radio, we could

8 easily communicate. So it was whenever there was a need.

9 Q. Did you speak to Petar in the late morning of July 11th?

10 A. Yes, Your Honour, I did.

11 Q. And who called whom?

12 A. In the morning I -- Your Honour, he's the one who called us.

13 Q. What did he say?

14 A. He was requesting for a meeting with the CO of DutchBat that

15 morning.

16 Q. What did you do?

17 A. Your Honour, that is the time we were -- we -- a request for an

18 air-strike had already been given to the UN headquarters, and we were

19 expecting air-strikes any time. So we got advice from UN headquarters in

20 Zagreb that we should not attend that meeting because the UN personnel

21 may be held hostage as a human shield to avert an air-strike.

22 Q. Colonel, later in the day did you speak to Petar again?

23 A. Yes, Your Honour. We talked to Petar. That was -- actually, the

24 air-strike had already been done if you can call that an air-strike

25 because only one aircraft attacked and very few -- there were only two

Page 22805

1 targets which were hit. So everything was over and that time we

2 requested for a meeting, and we were not that afraid because there were

3 no more air-strikes and we had not heard of any threats from the BSA up

4 to that time.

5 Q. And ultimately was a meeting held?

6 A. Yes, Your Honour, the meeting was held.

7 Q. Did you attend the meeting?

8 A. No, Your Honour, I did not.

9 Q. Now, I want to go to paragraph 27, which starts at the bottom of

10 this same page, and it notes that:

11 "All the trucks and buses were arranged by General Mladic and it

12 was clear that everything was planned including the evacuation. Mladic

13 made a very good show for the BSA TV cameras ..."

14 Colonel, what facts did you consider when you concluded here that

15 everything was planned?

16 A. Your Honour, we told General Mladic - and I remember personally

17 once talking to him about it - that the UN will provide transport to take

18 the refugees out of the enclave. And then he declined and said that he

19 had his own buses to take the people outside the enclave. And within a

20 very short time the buses were there. So to me, I could see that because

21 the buses were not being sought from the Yellow Bridge or Bratunac which

22 were the next towns, obviously this is something which had been

23 prearranged. And considering the number of buses and trucks, that could

24 have been a very big logistical issue so it must have been preplanned

25 according to my own assessment.

Page 22806

1 Q. Now, you just mentioned that you had this conversation with

2 Mladic. Was there also a second separate conversation with Mladic?

3 A. Yes, Your Honour. There was a second time that I talked to

4 General Mladic, and that was concerning the people -- the men who had

5 been taken to one white house, where they were put together. And to me

6 it looked very sad because they were all huddled in one particular place

7 and there were too many of them for that particular area. So I thought

8 the conditions therein were not good for them and I wanted him to do

9 something about it. That's when I talked to him a second time.

10 Q. When the two of you had the conversation, was it near the

11 white house itself?

12 A. No, Your Honour. It was not very near the white house but it was

13 not very far because that time it was slightly towards where the refugees

14 were outside -- in the outside compound. But he offered to take me to

15 the -- to that white house so that we could see the conditions. He was

16 still insisting that the conditions were good, that the people were happy

17 inside there, and so he offered to take me there and later on we went

18 there.

19 Q. Can you tell us what happened when you went there?

20 A. Your Honour, when we went to the white house we found the men

21 were still cramped together, there was no space for them to do anything,

22 but then General Mladic offered to, you know, to supply them with

23 candies, soft drinks, beers, and for sure it looked very real, it looked

24 like they were very happy because everybody was scrambling to get

25 something. So they were shouting, "Give me this," "Give me that," and

Page 22807

1 they all looked like they're okay. But to me it was just for the

2 cameras. It was just acting for the cameras to depict that.

3 Q. Colonel, ultimately did you ever get inside the white house?

4 A. Your Honour, General Mladic denied me access to the white house.

5 I asked him for it. I asked him whether he can let me go in there and he

6 said no, I'm not allowed to go inside there, so I did not.

7 MS. WEST: Mr. President, I would tender 65 ter 19423.

8 JUDGE KWON: That will be admitted.

9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P4165, Your Honours.

10 MS. WEST:

11 Q. Colonel, you -- early on today you described your role as a

12 military observer and, if I may, as some sort of liaison between the

13 parties. With whom on the VRS side did you primarily meet?

14 A. Your Honour, we were primarily meeting Major Nikolic who was the

15 main contact guy and also Colonel Vukovic.

16 Q. And how many times did you meet with Colonel Vukovic?

17 A. Your Honour, I met Colonel Vukovic at least four times, at least

18 four times.

19 Q. And on one of those occasions did take place at the

20 Hotel Fontana?

21 A. Yes, Your Honour, one of those occasions we met at Hotel Fontana.

22 Q. Can you tell us about that, please.

23 A. Your Honour, it was just one of, you know, like any other

24 meeting, but this one was a bit different, later on we learnt, in that

25 there was something he wanted to convey to us and also there were very

Page 22808

1 many senior officers from his side, from the BSA side, that is, there

2 were about six of them. And one of the questions that he posed to us is

3 what the UN might do in case the BSA attacked the enclave, attacked and

4 took the enclave. He wanted to hear from us what the UN would do.

5 Q. Colonel, can you remember when this meeting took place?

6 A. Your Honour, it took place quite early, quite early, just before

7 the attack. I think it was around June, around June.

8 Q. Colonel, I'm going to show you now some video footage, and this

9 is 65 ter 4582, the first part is part 2 of that video, and for the

10 record that's V0009035. In total we'll only play about five minutes.

11 Colonel, this is a July 12th. It's about 1.00 in the afternoon.

12 MS. WEST: And for the Trial Chamber, during the testimony of

13 Colonel Rutten you saw up to this point of where this video starts.

14 [Video-clip played]

15 MS. WEST: And for the record, we've stopped at time 25 and

16 31 seconds.

17 Q. Sir, is that you in the middle of the screen?

18 A. Your Honour, right now I can't see it.

19 JUDGE KWON: Please wait till our usher assists you, Mr. Kingori.

20 My apologies.

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, that's me.

22 JUDGE KWON: Ms. West, would you like the witness to view the

23 video again?

24 MS. WEST: Yes, if we could start again. Thank you very much.

25 [Video-clip played]

Page 22809

1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

2 JUDGE KWON: Ms. West, I was told that the Colonel watched the

3 video but -- is it true? Can you confirm that you watched the video?

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, I've watched it.

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

6 We can carry on then. Yes.

7 MS. WEST: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. President. If we

8 can -- we are now at 23.59. We are beginning the video. On the screen

9 we see July 12th at 13.13 in the afternoon. Now we can start.

10 [Video-clip played]

11 MS. WEST:

12 Q. Colonel, we just stopped at 24.39. Do you recognise this area?

13 A. Yes, Your Honour, I do.

14 Q. And is this an area in which you spent some time that particular

15 day?

16 A. Yes, Your Honour. I was there, moving around and checking the

17 situation the whole day, actually.

18 Q. And the people we've seen on the screen, so presently in the

19 minutes earlier, do you recognise some of these people who were there

20 that day?

21 A. Yes, Your Honour. These are people we were with.

22 Q. Thank you. We'll continue.

23 [Video-clip played]

24 MS. WEST: Now we've stopped at 25.20 and this is a frame of

25 General Mladic speaking to the crowds.

Page 22810

1 Q. While he was speaking to the crowds, did you remain in the

2 general area?

3 A. Your Honour, I was there throughout and I could see him. We were

4 with him around that area. And he was visibly -- you know, he was

5 present throughout.

6 Q. And were you able to see the reaction of the crowds to his words?

7 A. Yes, Your Honour. They were very happy. They were assured that

8 everything would be okay. So there was no cause for panic, which is

9 normal in any military operation. You've got to assure the people --

10 that everything is okay to win their hearts and minds so that they can be

11 on your side. This is normal. Whatever he was doing was what an

12 ordinary leader would do.

13 MS. WEST: Can we continue, please.

14 [Video-clip played]

15 MS. WEST: Now we've stopped at 28.59 and where we've stopped,

16 for the record, it was showing a crowd of people.

17 Q. Colonel, you mentioned earlier that this was part of winning

18 their hearts and minds. Considering your experience, why do you think

19 that this was normal?

20 A. Your Honour, this is what we call psychological warfare in that

21 you don't want the multitude to rise against you because of what has

22 happened to them. So you want to reassure them, you want to show them

23 that everything is okay, you are taking care of them, and that you ensure

24 nobody is hurt, nobody is harmed. Everybody will go to where they should

25 go to. So it's just to reassure them, though mainly you don't

Page 22811

1 necessarily have to mean what you have said.

2 Q. Colonel, I'm going to show you one more video.

3 MS. WEST: Mr. President, this video is just a total of 8 minutes

4 long. It's part of 65 ter 40582. This is part 3. For the record, it's

5 9016 of that 65 ter number, and we're going to begin at 2 minutes and

6 44 seconds.

7 [Video-clip played]

8 MS. WEST: We've stopped at 3 minutes and 55 seconds.

9 Q. Colonel, do these events on the video look familiar to you?

10 A. Yes, Your Honour, they do, in that I was there during this period

11 and that these people were being led into boarding the buses.

12 Q. Thank you. We're going to continue.

13 [Video-clip played]

14 MS. WEST: We've stopped at 6 minutes and 15 seconds.

15 Q. Do you recognise the person in the middle of the screen?

16 A. Yes, Your Honour, I do.

17 Q. Who was that?

18 A. This was one of the few men from the BSA side who could speak

19 English.

20 Q. And did you have an opportunity to talk with him during that day?

21 A. Yes, Your Honour. I was conveying some messages through him to

22 the higher echelon, the leadership of the BSA that time.

23 Q. Let's continue.

24 [Video-clip played]

25 MS. WEST: That's 7 minutes and 2 seconds.

Page 22812

1 Q. We have seen that this road continues on. To where does it go?

2 A. This is a road that leads to Bratunac from Potocari and all the

3 way up from Srebrenica.

4 Q. Thank you. We'll continue.

5 [Video-clip played]

6 MS. WEST: We're at 7 minutes and 29 seconds.

7 Q. Do you see yourself in this frame?

8 A. Yes, Your Honour, I do.

9 Q. And do you remember being in this area?

10 A. Yes, Your Honour, I was there.

11 Q. We'll continue.

12 [Video-clip played]

13 MS. WEST: We're at 8 minutes.

14 Q. And if you can tell, you're in this screen and you seem to be

15 coming up behind someone. Do you recognise that person in front of you?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Who is that?

18 A. It doesn't look very clear, but I think it was Krstic.

19 [Overlapping speakers] -- remember very well.

20 Q. Okay. What were you trying to do while you were in that area?

21 A. Your Honour, I was looking for any possible means of telling the

22 leadership, that is, the military leadership of the BSA, that what was

23 happening was not right and especially where the men who were being put

24 in one big house -- in one small house, many of them there, and without

25 any air, without food, without water, without anything. I just wanted to

Page 22813

1 convey that message through somebody.

2 Q. Okay. We're going to continue on.

3 [Video-clip played]

4 MS. WEST: We're at 8 minutes and 50 seconds.

5 Q. Colonel, you were just mentioning a place that was too crowded.

6 What was that place?

7 A. Your Honour, here I'm referring to the white house where all the

8 men had been taken.

9 Q. We continue.

10 [Video-clip played]

11 MS. WEST:

12 Q. Sir, we're at 9 minutes and 54 seconds. What is this you see on

13 the screen?

14 A. Your Honour, what you can see here is the belongings of the men,

15 that is, the Muslim men who had been taken to the white house, because

16 they were being forced to leave all these belongings outside the house.

17 These belongings included the clothes that they had, that they were

18 carrying, the identity cards, that is, the pass, they could leave the

19 pass there, the identity cards, everything that they had they had to

20 leave it there.

21 MS. WEST: We'll continue, Mr. President. We only have one more

22 minute of this video.

23 [Video-clip played]

24 MS. WEST: I'm going to stop at 10 minutes now.

25 Q. Earlier I asked you to identify a person and you mentioned that

Page 22814

1 it was sort of fuzzy. Unfortunately this is kind of fuzzy as well. I

2 know this was a long time ago, but can you identify the person who is

3 standing sort of directly in front of you, if you can remember?

4 A. Your Honour, it is not very clear. I can't remember him very

5 well.

6 Q. Okay. Do you remember what you were talking about here?

7 A. Yes, Your Honour, even here we were just discussing about the

8 general humanitarian situation in that place but through this guy with a

9 blue flak jacket who actually could be able to interpret from English to

10 Serbian language and vice versa.

11 Q. We'll continue now to the end.

12 [Video-clip played]

13 MS. WEST: Just for the record, this is that same footage but

14 it's the Serbian -- version they played on Serbian television. It will

15 continue for a few more seconds.

16 Q. Colonel, what we see at the screen at 10 minutes and 53 seconds,

17 do you recognise that?

18 A. Your Honour, I do recognise this. And as you can see very

19 clearly, this is the upper floor of the house where the men had been

20 taken after being separated from the women and children. And you can see

21 there's no space. They don't have any space at all. And this was the

22 same even in the ground floor, the floor below this, it was the same very

23 bad condition.

24 Q. And when you had that discussion with General Mladic, was this

25 the vicinity in which you were standing?

Page 22815

1 A. Your Honours, this is was what I was referring to.

2 Q. Colonel, I have no more questions.

3 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. West.

5 We'll adjourn for today, and Mr. Karadzic will start his

6 cross-examination tomorrow at 9.00. The hearing is now adjourned.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.07 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 12th day of

9 January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.