120127IT

Page 23740

1 Q. Good morning, Mr. Ruez.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. I want to start off by just going back to something we talked

4 about very briefly yesterday. If you can look at page 38 of the book

5 that's in front of you. That's 65 ter 3199. It's page 48 in e-court.

6 And, Mr. Ruez, the transcript yesterday recorded you saying -

7 this was from page T23644:

8 "... this is the view from close to the asphalt road where the

9 Bosnian Serb was present, and the men were on top of the hills ..."

10 Is there something missing from that when you say "close to the

11 asphalt road where the Bosnian Serb was present"?

12 A. Yes, the Bosnian Serb Army.

13 Q. Thank you. Let's move to page 46 now. It's page 56 in e-court.

14 We're going to see another map here, and if you can describe to us

15 where -- where the next location we're going to look at is and if you can

16 locate that for us on this map.

17 A. Yes. So now, as I said, we are entering the spots where

18 executions took place, and this one points a location in the so-called

19 Cerska Valley.

20 Q. Okay. What was the first information you received that made

21 Cerska Valley a place of interest?

22 A. It -- it was a combination of two -- two witnesses. The first

23 one was on 13 July overlooking this area from the top of the hill that I

24 described as being the hill overlooking the intersection of

25 Konjevic Polje, and from there he could see three buses entering this --

Page 23741

1 the entrance of this valley. These three buses were escorted by APCs.

2 And shortly after he lost of sight these buses, there was a small

3 excavator who followed the same track and also entered the valley.

4 Shortly afterwards, he heard intense shooting coming from that direction.

5 This is what the first witness reported. And another one who

6 managed to cross during the night, this area, who had lost his shoes

7 during the trip, walked at one point on sticky material that he

8 identified as being a pool of blood, and he continued his way towards the

9 top of the valley.

10 Q. Okay. If I -- I'll just stop you there and we'll go on and look

11 at some of the photos now. If we go to the next page, please, page 47 in

12 the book and page 40 -- 57 in e-court.

13 Mr. Ruez, before you explain the black arrow, can you orient us

14 on the road that we see on the bottom right-hand side of the picture.

15 A. So totally at the right of the picture is the hill overlooking --

16 the above intersection and also the area that leads towards Nova Kasaba,

17 and in front of that -- the line shows, in fact, the direction of this

18 dirt road that leads to the entrance of Cerska Valley.

19 Q. That's the black arrow.

20 A. This is the black arrow, indeed.

21 Q. And the road on the right-hand side that we can see that curves

22 in and then back out of the picture, where does that road lead to?

23 A. So this one is the road that leads from Konjevic Polje. That

24 would be in direction of the top right, and towards Nova Kasaba, bottom

25 right.

Page 23742

1 Q. Can we go to the next page, please, 47 -- 48 in the book and 58

2 in e-court.

3 Can you describe what we see on this picture.

4 A. Yes. It is the opposite view seen this time from the beginning

5 of the -- the entrance of Cerska Valley and looking towards the hill

6 which is the one overlooking all this area on which the witness was when

7 he saw these buses entering the valley.

8 Q. Mr. Ruez, I might actually get you to mark on this map where the

9 roads are heading.

10 MR. MITCHELL: If I could ask the usher to assist.

11 THE WITNESS: So this is the direction towards Nova Kasaba. This

12 is the direction towards Konjevic Polje.

13 MR. MITCHELL:

14 Q. How far is Konjevic Polje from this intersection that we see

15 here?

16 A. Maybe more than 1 kilometre but not so much more.

17 Q. And Nova Kasaba?

18 A. Probably 3, 4. And this one is the direction to Cerska.

19 Q. And how far down this road into the Cerska Valley is the site

20 that we're going to be looking at where the bodies were discovered?

21 A. Maybe 2 kilometres.

22 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, if I can tender that --

23 Q. Mr. Ruez, if you can put your initials in the bottom right-hand

24 corner and today's date.

25 A. We are the 27th?

Page 23743

1 Q. 27th, yes.

2 A. [Marks]

3 JUDGE KWON: This will be admitted.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4280, Your Honours.

5 MR. MITCHELL:

6 Q. Could we go to the next page, please, page 49 in the book, 59 in

7 e-court.

8 Mr. Ruez, can you describe what we see on this photo, where this

9 road is leading to.

10 A. This is the dirt road that enters the Cerska Valley, and it's

11 more or less where the first of these three Humvees is located. That one

12 who is overlooking the area loses -- starts to lose the sight of the

13 buses.

14 Q. Do you recall what year this picture was taken in?

15 A. Yes. It was in 1996. We might have a date on one of these

16 pictures. Well, we don't have a date, but --

17 Q. Was this your first trip to the area?

18 A. No, it was not the first trip, because during the first mission

19 in Cerska Valley we didn't find the -- the spot, so we drove along the

20 entire valley filming -- filming everything on the way up and then on the

21 way down. Then the video was shown to a witness who walked in the pool

22 of blood, and he's the one who pinpointed an area where we had a

23 reference point. So on another mission we came back to -- to the place.

24 Thanks to this information, we identified a suspect area, and this is the

25 area that we then probed and found the spot.

Page 23744

1 Q. Can we go to the next photo, please, page 50, and page 60 in

2 e-court. If you can just briefly describe what this is.

3 A. So again this is the -- the dirt road leading to the -- to the

4 suspect spot, and this is to show that it's quite a remote and hidden

5 location. Indeed, totally at this point out of sight of anyone who would

6 be on the opposite side of the valley even on -- on a hill.

7 Q. The next page, please, page 51 in the book and 61 in e-court.

8 Mr. Ruez, I might ask you to mark some things on this photo. If

9 you can just explain what this photo shows.

10 A. So this is the -- the area that we considered as suspect. In

11 fact, initially for the simple reason that on the -- on the right side of

12 this picture -- in fact, this is the direction of the entrance of the

13 valley, and this is the direction of Cerska.

14 Q. So this shot is taken looking back in the direction that you came

15 from.

16 A. Yes, correct. And what was in fact suspect here was all these

17 branches that were put on the -- on the side of the road and had no

18 specific reason to be there.

19 JUDGE KWON: Could you put number 1 there.

20 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

21 MR. MITCHELL:

22 Q. Okay. Can you put your initials on that and the date.

23 A. [Marks]

24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That will be Exhibit P4281.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Instead of 2011, I believe it's

Page 23745

1 2012.

2 MR. MITCHELL: That's correct. Thank you.

3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

4 THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry. I didn't realise we had changed the

5 year already.

6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.

7 MR. MITCHELL:

8 Q. If we can go to the next page, page 52, 62 in e-court. And if

9 you can orient us on this picture and then describe what this picture

10 shows.

11 A. So this is a better view of the suspect area, but it's seen now

12 reversed. The pen doesn't want to ...

13 So the top is the direction of Cerska this time and the bottom --

14 the vehicles are pointing to drive back to -- towards the entrance.

15 Q. And can you mark on there that suspect area again?

16 A. A bit further here.

17 Q. If you can mark that with a number 1.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Now, is there any significance to the dirt area that we see on

20 the right-hand side of the picture?

21 A. Yes, indeed, there is. In fact, the little excavator who came

22 after the three buses took soil from this area 2 in order to dump the

23 soil on top of the bodies that fell along this slope here.

24 Q. Thank you. If you can initial and date that.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 23746

1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Exhibit P4282.

2 MR. MITCHELL:

3 Q. Can we move to page 53 in the book, 63 in e-court. I won't get

4 to you mark anything on the next picture, Mr. Ruez, but if you can just

5 very quickly tell us what we're looking at now.

6 A. One thing that was not obvious on the previous photographs is

7 that there is a quite steep slope in this area, so the execution area

8 being at the -- at the top where the -- the people are standing and where

9 the vehicle is parked. The bodies then fell along this slope, and the --

10 the soil that is covering this slope is the soil that was taken by the

11 excavator on the disturbed area that we saw on the previous picture.

12 Q. Next page, please, page 54, and 64 in e-court. Now, if you can

13 explain what's happening in this picture, Mr. Ruez.

14 A. Mm-hmm. So on every site we go to and where we suspect we could

15 find bodies, the thing that we do is we probe the area in order to

16 determine the presence of bodies, and always the presence of multiple

17 bodies, so that after that we can now spark an exhumation process, and to

18 do so we need to show the presence of multiple bodies.

19 Q. How do you do a probe?

20 A. The first thing that is done is to use a probe. That is a long

21 metal stick that is planted inside the soil, going at least 1.5 metre

22 deep, and the technique is very basic since after that this probe is

23 taken out of the soil, and you need to sniff the top of it in order to

24 identify the smell as being the smell of dead bodies. This is a process

25 that we call among us "pick and sniff."

Page 23747

1 Q. And what happens after you've done that initial probe? What's

2 the next step in investigating a site?

3 A. So on this one we decided to -- to dig at three locations that we

4 estimated being among the suspect area. So here at this moment you can

5 see three people starting to dig the surface until we -- we hit

6 something.

7 Q. And is each of those individuals is in a different pit?

8 A. Yes, absolutely. Everyone is doing his part of the work on three

9 different locations on this slope.

10 Q. And this photo was also taken in 1996?

11 A. 1996, yes. I don't remember the month precisely.

12 Q. Could we go to the next photo, please, page 55 in the book, 65 in

13 e-court. Can you describe what we see here?

14 A. So this is the result of the search on the first little trench,

15 and at the bottom of the picture, which is more or less the bottom of the

16 slope, one can see two -- two legs with two feet.

17 Q. Now can we go to the next photo, please, page 56 in the book,

18 66 in e-court. Now, is this in the same pit that we were just looking at

19 or a different pit?

20 A. This is the second pit, the one in the middle, and this is the

21 top of a skull with some hair still attached on it.

22 Q. Did you have someone with you who was identifying these objects

23 as human remains?

24 A. No, not on -- not on this mission, but we showed the pictures,

25 and this is considered as indeed being a soil. For the previous picture

Page 23748

1 you don't need to be an anthropologist to find out that it's legs and

2 shoes.

3 Q. We can go to the next page, please, 57 in the book, 67 in

4 e-court. And which of the three pits is this in?

5 A. So this is the one which is the most right from the previous

6 picture, and this is a top of a body with a skull popping out of -- of a

7 jacket, a civilian jacket.

8 Q. How long in length would you estimate that the suspect area was

9 along the edge of the road?

10 A. Approximately 20 metres.

11 Q. Can we go to the next page, please, 58 in the book, 68 in

12 e-court. We're going to see an aerial image entitled "Disturbed earth."

13 There are in fact two images, one dated 5 July 1995 and one dated

14 27 July 1995. Can you explain the significance of this image to your

15 investigation.

16 A. This is a picture that we requested after having found this area

17 in order to ascertain the frame date of the creation of site, and on the

18 picture at the left dated 5th of July, the round yellow marking spots the

19 area where we have dug and found the bodies, and on the one at the right

20 dated 27 July, one can clearly see the disturbance at the side of the

21 road where the bodies have been dumped and also the parts that have been

22 disturbed on the right side of the road where the excavator took the soil

23 to cover the bodies.

24 Q. You put the yellow markings on this image; is that correct?

25 A. This is correct.

Page 23749

1 Q. And on the right-hand side, just to orient us, the smaller of the

2 two boxes, which part of the site does that refer to?

3 A. That's the -- the right side of the road when going up to Cerska.

4 It is the area where the excavator took the soil from the hillside to

5 dump it on top of the bodies.

6 Q. So the longer rectangle on the left, that is the suspect area?

7 A. This is the burial area.

8 Q. Can we go to page 59 and -- in the book, 69 in e-court. And if

9 you can talk us through the markings on this photo.

10 A. Mm-hmm. The yellow markers in the middle, they point the size of

11 the -- the location where we did our probing. It was to identify the --

12 the -- where we dug these pits. The yellow -- the yellow arrow at the

13 right of the picture shows the direction to where the bodies fell after

14 having been shot from the opposite side of the road where you can see two

15 persons conducting at this moment a search for the shell casings that we

16 found on the left side of the road. So the shooters were standing at the

17 left and shooting at extremely short distance at people who were lined on

18 the -- on the opposite side and who then fell along this slope. And the

19 yellow arrow at the left points to the area of disturbance where the

20 excavator then took the soil to cover the -- the bodies on the slope.

21 Q. Do the yellow numbered markers that we can see, do they run the

22 full length of the suspect area?

23 A. No, they don't. They only mark the area where we conducted the

24 probe. The actual size of the grave was slightly longer, and our

25 assumption, since there were three buses, was that we had to count

Page 23750

1 approximately 50 people per bus, and it was a right assumption because,

2 if I remember well, the exhumation here uncovered 150 bodies precisely,

3 or 151. I don't remember precisely.

4 Q. And do you recall what year that exhumation was done?

5 A. I would think it was done shortly afterwards.

6 Q. Could we move to the next page.

7 A. It was done that year for sure.

8 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Ruez, the next section of your book relates

9 to Nova Kasaba. We're actually going to skip over that and go to the

10 following section. It's page 70 in the book, page 80 in e-court.

11 If you can tell us what the significance of the red dot on this

12 map is. Right in the centre of the map.

13 A. Okay. This one is again the pinpointing of a reported execution

14 site.

15 Q. And where is that site?

16 A. This one is just at the edge of -- of a river that goes to

17 Drinjaca, the Drinjaca river. Just before Drinjaca river.

18 Q. And do you recall the specific name of this river?

19 A. No, I don't. We always call it Drinjaca, but might be just

20 before Drinjaca.

21 Q. Well, how did you first hear about this site?

22 A. We heard about this site from a witness who was the one who was

23 taken in the hangar at Konjevic Polje and who claimed having then been

24 taken with a group of 16 others in a bus, driven towards this canyon that

25 leads to the Drinjaca river and then going north towards Zvornik where

Page 23751

1 they were then stopped, unloaded, walked down a steep hill, reached

2 the -- the edge of the river when the people, the armed people who were

3 following them, then shot them in the back. And he shot and fell in the

4 water, managed to float away and then gave other reference points, and so

5 on, and managed to survive.

6 Q. Can you see the name of that witness on the sheet in front of

7 you, and if you can, can you read out his witness code.

8 A. He's the witness KDZ065.

9 Q. And you talked about this same witness yesterday in relation to

10 some sites at Konjevic Polje; is that correct?

11 A. Yes. And the name of the river is Jadar, by the way.

12 Q. Can we please go to the next page, page 71 in the book, 81 in

13 e-court. We've seen this photo before. If you can just remind us what

14 that building in the blue circle is, the blue square.

15 A. In the blue square is the hangar of Konjevic Polje in which

16 initially the victim was locked inside, and then put on a bus. On this

17 picture it happens at random that there is a bus exactly there, and then

18 this bus took the direction north, so towards Zvornik, and the canyon

19 starts after the curve at the end of this red arrow.

20 Q. So the red arrow points towards the direction of Zvornik.

21 A. Towards the direction of Zvornik, but it's much before -- much,

22 much before Zvornik. It's just at 2 -- 2 kilometres away from the

23 intersection.

24 Q. Can we go to the next page, please. This is page 72 in the book,

25 82 in e-court.

Page 23752

1 Now, Mr. Ruez, next to the red arrow we see in this picture we

2 can see two natural lines. Can you maybe mark on this image those lines

3 and describe what they are.

4 A. So this is the direction -- at the top is the direction from

5 where the bus was coming from. So this is the direction.

6 Q. And that's the direction of Konjevic Polje.

7 A. Yes. This one is the direction of Zvornik. This line here is

8 the road. And this one here is Jadar river.

9 Q. Can you see the site where the witness took you to in this photo?

10 A. It could be just -- just under the picture or more or less --

11 more or less in this area here. That's quite a steep slope leading to

12 the river.

13 Q. If you could just mark that little area with a 1.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. And initial and date it.

16 A. [Marks].

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That will be Exhibit P4283.

18 MR. MITCHELL:

19 Q. Thank you. Now, can we go to the next page, please, page 73 in

20 the book, 83 in e-court.

21 Can you describe what's on this photo, Mr. Ruez?

22 A. So this is the little convoy that we made in order to bring the

23 witness to -- to the spot, since without his presence this would be

24 totally impossible for us to find, and at this moment we are arriving --

25 nearly arriving at the -- at the spot where the bus unloaded the

Page 23753

1 prisoners.

2 Q. How far away could you approximate that you were in this photo?

3 A. Maybe 1, maybe 200 metres away.

4 Q. Can we go to the next photo, please. Page 74, page 84 in

5 e-court.

6 Can you tell us first who took this photo?

7 A. I took the photo from -- it's an extract from a video that I took

8 from helicopter of the -- the entire -- the entire crime scene areas,

9 70 kilometres long north/south.

10 Q. And can you explain the significance of the red arrow?

11 A. The arrow starts at an area which is a stop for vehicles and

12 where the -- the bus stopped, and the arrow points towards the direction

13 of a small path that goes down this steep slope down to the river.

14 Q. Now, the road we see running through the middle of the picture,

15 which direction does it head out to the left of the picture?

16 A. This is the direction of Zvornik, and this one towards

17 Konjevic Polje.

18 Q. And can you also mark in the river in this picture.

19 A. [Marks]

20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Exhibit P4284.

21 MR. MITCHELL:

22 Q. Can we go to the next payment, please, 75 in the book and 85 in

23 e-court.

24 If you could describe this site to us and tell us whether you

25 found anything at this site.

Page 23754

1 A. So this is the area where the -- the witness told us the

2 execution took place, the prisoners being lined along the river and shot

3 in the back. He -- he recognised -- he knew the one who shot him, and he

4 gave his name in the statement, a policeman from Bratunac.

5 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE KWON: We'll not rely on his evidence of the --

7 MR. ROBINSON: Okay.

8 JUDGE KWON: He's introducing the various sites.

9 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. I think it would be preferable if when

10 answering those questions he didn't make references to the details of the

11 witness's statement but simply pointed out that, We were led to the site

12 by a witness who had been present. I don't think it's necessary to go

13 beyond that.

14 JUDGE KWON: Yes. In order to find why he came to that site. So

15 it's necessary to hear that part, to that extent.

16 MR. ROBINSON: Right. To the extent that it was someone who was

17 present directed him there, but the details of what occurred at the sites

18 is not necessary, as far as we're concerned, and violates the

19 Appeals Chamber jurisprudence.

20 MR. MITCHELL: If I can respond to that.

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

22 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, I think it's perfectly proper for

23 Mr. Ruez to give a description of what happened at the sites insofar as

24 it relates to his investigation, how he came to the sites, what

25 particular features he's looking for. So I certainly don't think his

Page 23755

1 evidence should be limited to just a discussion of how the site was

2 found. There will be certain features within those sites that he's

3 looking for.

4 JUDGE KWON: But he's not here to relay what he heard from the

5 witnesses, but we'll hear -- we'll not limit his evidence insofar as it's

6 relevant to familiarise us to the -- with the various sites.

7 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you.

8 JUDGE KWON: Please carry on.

9 MR. MITCHELL:

10 Q. Now, Mr. Ruez, we're going to move to another site now.

11 A. No. No, sorry.

12 Q. Please, if you've got something to add.

13 A. Yes, yes. The question about what we found is extremely

14 important.

15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

16 THE WITNESS: The fact is that we didn't find anything there. We

17 didn't find no human remains, might have fallen in the river like the

18 witness, and we also didn't find shell casings in this area, and the next

19 photo might explain the reason why.

20 MR. MITCHELL:

21 Q. If we can go to the next page, 76 in the book and 86 in e-court.

22 If you can just briefly explain why you took this photo.

23 A. The -- I don't have the -- the date and the year of this

24 submission. It might have been 1998. The interest of this photo is to

25 show that most certainly at some points of the year this -- this river

Page 23756

1 doesn't look at all in the same shape. As one can see, there are big

2 wooden logs stuck at more than 1.5 meter higher than the current flow of

3 the river. So all the evidence we were looking for might have been

4 washed out, washed away by the river.

5 Q. We've going to move now to a new area. If I can get you to go to

6 page 86 in your book, page 96 in e-court. We're skipping over the

7 section on Konjevic Polje.

8 If you can tell us what the next site is that we're going to look

9 at.

10 A. So this one is in connection with a location we already went

11 through, which is the regroupment spot of the prisoners who surrendered

12 the 13 of July and were taken first to the meadow of -- for -- of

13 Sandici. The red spot indicates the location of an execution site where

14 some of these men from -- from Sandici were taken to.

15 Q. Now, what was the first information you received that led you to

16 investigate this sight at Kravica?

17 A. The -- the first one was a testimony that we collected during the

18 summer 1995 from a man who claimed having been -- having surrendered,

19 being taken to the meadow in Sandici and from there taken by foot in a

20 large group and put inside this warehouse where he could enter what he

21 calls a little guardhouse inside, and the reason why he survived is that

22 when the execution took place there, he could hide under bodies and

23 inside -- inside this -- this guardhouse.

24 Q. Can you see the name of that witness on the list in front of you,

25 and if you can, can you tell us his witness code.

Page 23757

1 A. Mm-hmm. So this first witness is KDZ071.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. The -- the --

4 Q. Please go on.

5 A. The second witness, we could only access him beginning of the

6 following year, after the month of March, when the total process of

7 exchange of prisoners was over. And this particular witness had managed

8 to flee after having survived the execution at Kravica warehouse. He

9 could flee to Zepa. He was taken prisoner in Zepa but not identified as

10 coming from Srebrenica and could tell his story after having been

11 released after the month of March 1996.

12 Q. And what's his witness code, if you can see it there?

13 A. He is the witness KDZ063.

14 Q. Let's go to the next page at page 87 in the book and 97 in

15 e-court. And if you can tell us where this photo is taken from and what

16 the red arrow is pointing to.

17 A. This photograph is taken from the reference point that we named

18 the destroyed house that is along the asphalt road at the Sandici meadow.

19 And from there it gives an idea of the distance towards the Kravica

20 warehouse. The Kravica warehouse is this white spot that is pointed to

21 by the red arrow on the picture, and at the left it is the asphalt road

22 leading towards Bratunac.

23 Q. Let's go to the next photo, page 88, page 98 in e-court. Again,

24 if you can describe this photo to us.

25 A. This one is photo from helicopter that gives a better feeling of

Page 23758

1 the distance. It's a short distance, approximately 1 kilometre by foot

2 or by vehicle from Sandici meadow. But Sandici meadow is just right

3 under the -- this -- this picture, just at the -- at the left of -- the

4 bottom of the road.

5 Q. Can we go to the next page. Page 89 in the book, 99 in e-court.

6 If you can describe this and then orient us on the road that we

7 can see running down the bottom half of the picture.

8 A. At the -- at the right of the blue arrow is the direction of the

9 meadow of Sandici, so the direction of Konjevic Polje. And the arrow

10 points towards the direction of Bratunac. This is the direction the

11 arrow is, the direction of the -- of the prisoners when they arrived at

12 the -- at the warehouse.

13 They arrived in two different groupings. The first group

14 arrived -- small group arrived by buses. It is the one in which the

15 second witness was, the witness KDZ063. And the buses unloaded them in

16 front of the east part of -- sorry, west part of the warehouse.

17 Q. And if -- this is the warehouse within the red box?

18 A. Yes. This is the warehouse complex. It's several buildings, but

19 the building of relevance is the one that is parallel to the roads in the

20 red rectangle.

21 Q. Could we go to the next page, please, page 90 in the book and 100

22 in e-court.

23 We have a split image here.

24 A. Mm-hmm.

25 Q. If you can tell us first what time of year was the image at the

Page 23759

1 top taken.

2 A. The -- the one at the top is the one that is dated at the closest

3 date possible of the events. It's a picture that was taken in January

4 1996. The one at the bottom was taken much later, maybe 1997, maybe even

5 1998.

6 One can see at the bottom a destroyed part of the warehouse is

7 now reconstructed.

8 Q. And the area that you've outlined in the red box, is that the

9 east end -- what you refer to as the east end or the west end of the

10 warehouse?

11 A. The -- this is the part where the larger group of the people who

12 arrived by foot were taken. So the second -- the second group. And the

13 part that is marked is the east part -- the west part, sorry.

14 Q. Now, in this -- this trip you made --

15 A. Did I say east here? I'm a bit confused at this point.

16 JUDGE KWON: You corrected as west.

17 MR. MITCHELL:

18 Q. We have it in the transcript as "the west end."

19 A. No, it's the east end.

20 JUDGE KWON: You said earlier on the arrow, blue arrow, was from

21 Sandici meadow.

22 THE WITNESS: Yes.

23 JUDGE KWON: I think that's sufficient.

24 THE WITNESS: Okay.

25 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you.

Page 23760

1 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm a bit lost, I must confess.

2 JUDGE KWON: This is always confusing.

3 MR. MITCHELL:

4 Q. Now, this trip in January 1996, did you do anything at the

5 warehouse? Did you go into the warehouse and do any investigation?

6 A. It was an extremely short mission, because in fact we use the

7 opportunity of a short one-day trip made by Mr. John Shattuck in the

8 area. Mr. Shattuck was Under-Secretary of State for human rights of the

9 US government, and the aim of the mission was to show implementation of

10 Dayton agreement by freedom of movement, the freedom of movement being at

11 that time only for press people, to be honest, but it gave a wonderful

12 opportunity to go with him in order to show him various sites and have a

13 first look at them. So at this particular site, meanwhile Mr. Shattuck

14 was keeping the press people busy for a short interview, I entered the

15 warehouse with a colleague and we scratched a sample of suspect substance

16 that was all over these walls in order to determine if we were in front

17 of an animal slaughterhouse or if indeed this place had been an execution

18 place of human beings, so human blood.

19 Q. And what were the -- the results -- first, did you have those

20 analysed?

21 A. Yes. The sample was taken to a Dutch forensic lab, and the

22 result was that the sample was human blood.

23 Q. Could we go to the next page, please, page 91 in the book and 101

24 in e-court. And just very briefly, if you can --

25 A. So this one is the west part, the direction of Bratunac, and this

Page 23761

1 is where the first group on board of buses were taken to. So this one is

2 more open space. There is no -- no door to -- to lock this area, so the

3 people were brought to be sitting at this west end of the warehouse.

4 Q. Can we go to the next page, page 92 in the book and 102 in

5 e-court. The picture in the bottom right is an aerial dated

6 13 July 1995, approximately 1400 hours. If you can describe the

7 significance of what's in the yellow circle.

8 A. Mm-hmm. So this is an aerial surveillance imagery dated 13, and

9 on this one we can see two buses parked at the west part of the warehouse

10 precisely at the location where the -- the second witness declared having

11 been taken to by bus.

12 Q. And can you just tell us -- remind us again which witness that

13 was.

14 A. The KDZ063.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 JUDGE KWON: How about asking the witness to mark on this aerial

17 image. Which direction is to the -- is the Sandici meadow?

18 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

19 JUDGE KWON: So which way -- which direction is the east?

20 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

21 JUDGE KWON: Why don't we keep this as --

22 THE WITNESS: The reference.

23 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll keep it as next exhibit. Give the

24 number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4285, Your Honours.

Page 23762

1 JUDGE KWON: Could we go back to page 86, e-court 96, I take it.

2 THE ACCUSED: It was what I was --

3 JUDGE KWON: Do you see -- do you see Bratunac and Sandici? Yes,

4 Bratunac is in the east, isn't it?

5 THE WITNESS: Yes.

6 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to correct your -- yes.

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, I reversed the thing. Yes, I totally reversed

8 it.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Shall we bring it up? Shall we bring it up,

10 the exhibit we just saw, P4285.

11 Would you like to correct the east and west.

12 THE WITNESS: Yes.

13 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Probably you need to push the

14 button.

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, I need to push again.

16 JUDGE KWON: But could you wait a minute. Yes. Push it again.

17 Just a second.

18 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, perhaps we could go back. I could

19 have Mr. Ruez mark a clean copy if that would be of assistance.

20 JUDGE KWON: Because it's in the transcript, I think I would

21 prefer that he correct this.

22 THE ACCUSED: I'd prefer corrections on that one.

23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes.

24 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

Page 23763

1 THE WITNESS: Okay.

2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

3 Please continue, Mr. Mitchell.

4 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you.

5 JUDGE KWON: Make sure that we keep this.

6 MR. MITCHELL:

7 Q. If we can go to the next page, please. It's page 93 in the book

8 and 103 in e-court.

9 Mr. Ruez, we've seen this photo before.

10 A. I've not the good one on the screen.

11 Q. It's page 103.

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, 93 in hard copy.

13 MR. MITCHELL: Ninety-three in hard copy, 103 in e-court.

14 Q. We've seen this picture before. Can you just explain briefly why

15 this is in your book again.

16 A. No, it's the same explanation, so this one is the west. That's

17 where the largest group was taken to, and this is where the witness

18 KDZ071 was taken to.

19 Q. The next page, please, page 94 in the book and 104 in e-court.

20 Can you tell us what date this photo was taken?

21 A. This was in 1996. It was the first mission where we entered the

22 warehouse in order to do a preliminary collection of samples in order to

23 secure what we could collect inside in case any event would prevent us to

24 return and more fully process the place with an expert team, another

25 expert team fully dedicated for that.

Page 23764

1 Q. And which end of the warehouse is this in, if you recall?

2 A. Yes. This is the -- the west part of the warehouse.

3 Q. What are the yellow arrows pointing to?

4 A. They -- they point to locations where samples were taken and that

5 we suspected to be human blood and hair, skin, pieces of skin, things

6 like this.

7 Q. Were these the samples that you referred to earlier that you said

8 were tested?

9 A. No. The -- during the very short entering of this place in

10 January, I didn't even take a photograph of the sample. I just took the

11 sample. It was just to check if we were talking about animal or human

12 blood in this place.

13 Q. But these particular samples here, were they taken and tested, or

14 you're just -- the arrows are just pointing to them?

15 A. No. They were labelled, given ERN numbers and kept just in case

16 we could not return, but this place was later that year fully processed

17 by experts from the US navy service and who have filed a complete report

18 about the hundreds of samples that they took in this -- in this area.

19 Q. The next page, please, page 95 in hard copy, 105 in e-court.

20 Again, is this in the west end of the warehouse?

21 A. Yes. It is still the west end. So the picture is not as good

22 quality as the original one, but you can see on this a lot of blood

23 spills on the wall, as well as black traces that were determined being

24 from explosive residues, confirming the fact that grenades had been also

25 thrown inside the warehouse, not only shots fired.

Page 23765

1 Q. At page 96 in the hard copy and 106 in e-court, please. Now, can

2 you tell us what this is and where it was found?

3 A. So this is a live grenade that was found in -- in the grassy area

4 just in front of the warehouse, in between the asphalt road and the

5 warehouse.

6 Q. Do you recall when this photo was taken?

7 A. It was taken in 1996. It could be a mission of June 1996.

8 Q. Can we go to the next page, please.

9 A. Sorry, no. There is a date on another picture which was taken

10 during the same mission. It was April 1996.

11 Q. Thank you. Page 97 in the hard copy, 107 in e-court, please.

12 Could you talk us through what this photo shows, what the

13 number 2 is, what the item with the writing on it is, and then the object

14 in the middle?

15 A. This is a grenade handle of -- that was -- when they attached to

16 a grenade, and that is a part that stays behind once the grenade is

17 thrown. The grenade explodes, but the spoon stays. And this spoon was

18 found at the back of the warehouse, so at the north-west part of the

19 warehouse, at the back of the warehouse.

20 Q. And what's the -- the piece of paper in front with the writing on

21 it? Can you briefly explain what that is?

22 A. Yes. This is a sheet that goes together with -- with the piece

23 of evidence in order to label the date and hour it was taken. And as you

24 can see from the agency ICTY, the case number for this specific case,

25 KV-3, Kravica-3, and the name of the person who took the picture.

Page 23766

1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mitchell, I note the time. We're going to take

2 a break now.

3 MR. MITCHELL: Certainly.

4 JUDGE KWON: If it is convenient.

5 MR. MITCHELL: It is convenient.

6 JUDGE KWON: Before that, can I draw your attention to the

7 pages 78 -- from 78 to 85 in hard copy. Were those sites included in the

8 indictment sites?

9 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, there's two sites in this which are

10 not in the indictment, Nova Kasaba and Konjevic Polje, and we skipped

11 over those two sets of photos.

12 JUDGE KWON: Why were they included in the book?

13 MR. MITCHELL: They were included because -- simply because this

14 is an exhibit that was created by Mr. Ruez for the Popovic trial --

15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

16 MR. MITCHELL: -- and we have simply used the same exhibit.

17 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you.

18 We'll take a break for 20 minutes and resume at half past 10.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 10.12 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 10.33 a.m.

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.

22 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. I'd like to

23 introduce one of our legal interns, Nastexo Muxumed, from the

24 United Kingdom, who is joining us this section.

25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

Page 23767

1 Yes, Mr. Mitchell. Please continue.

2 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Q. Mr. Ruez, just a couple of extra questions on this photo, page 97

4 in the book. Can you explain what the yellow tag with the number 2 on it

5 is? The yellow object we can see in the -- in the photo.

6 A. Yes. These markers designate the number of the -- of the

7 exhibit, of the piece of evidence.

8 Mr. Prosecutor, I would like to make an additional correction to

9 the directions we were pointing to previously, because the picture was

10 totally reversed from my usual reference points, and I made an additional

11 mistake not only inversing east and west but also therefore inversed

12 south and north. So when I said the back of the warehouse was north, in

13 reality it's opposite. It's south. So the grenade handle found at the

14 back of the warehouse was, in fact, found south-west of the warehouse.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. An additional little thing also. When I talk about the spoon of

17 a grenade, the spoon is the French word for it, but I translate it as a

18 spoon, but in English it's a grenade handle.

19 Q. Was this the only grenade handle you found, the one that we can

20 see in this picture?

21 A. No. We found a few of them. Probably four or five of them.

22 Q. Were they concentrated in one area, or were they spread out?

23 A. They were concentrated in the south-west area, underneath two

24 windows.

25 Q. Can we go to the next page, page 98 in the hard copy and 108 in

Page 23768

1 e-court.

2 Mr. Ruez, this photo and the next one, which is page 99 in your

3 book, show a hole in the warehouse wall. Were you able to determine what

4 this hole was and what may have caused it?

5 A. There was a statement claiming that shots were fired inside,

6 grenades thrown inside, and even an RPG-style antitank rockets fired

7 inside. So that hole could have been consistent with that, especially on

8 the following picture.

9 Q. Can we go to the following picture, page 99, 109 in e-court.

10 A. Where one can see the fact that some explosion occurred in this

11 wall from inside towards outside. And if indeed this would be caused by

12 such a weapon, it might very well be that it could have been fired from

13 the window that one can see at the -- in the line of sight through this

14 hole, but -- it's just a possible consistency, but I would not say for

15 sure that this was the case.

16 Q. Let's go to the next page, page 100, 110 in e-court. And if you

17 can explain to us the significance of the entrance which the yellow arrow

18 is pointing to.

19 A. So this is the -- the facade, the front facade of the warehouse,

20 and as the witness claimed having been able to hide inside a so-called

21 guardhouse inside, this is the location where we found traces of what was

22 previously a guardhouse inside, and the arrow points to that specific

23 location.

24 Q. Well, let's go to the next page, page 101, 111 in e-court. If

25 you can describe this to us.

Page 23769

1 A. Yes. The fact is that after the first short entering the

2 warehouse in January, I then had to tell to the witness that there was an

3 inconsistency in his story since we didn't see any -- anything that

4 looked like a guardhouse inside. But the fact is also that on the next

5 mission we had more time, and this was the obvious traces of what is left

6 of what was before the little bulldozer entered the place and cleaned the

7 bodies and most probably destroyed this structure. One can see where it

8 was with the blue little tiles at the bottom and the traces on the wall

9 that show where this structure was constructed inside this warehouse.

10 Q. And can you just tell us the date that this particular photo was

11 taken.

12 A. This one has the date on it. It was the 12 April 1996.

13 Q. Can you also tell us if you can see the witness code of the

14 witness you're talking about. If you can read that out for us.

15 A. Yes. He's the witness KDZ071.

16 Q. Thank you. Can we go to the next page please, 102 in the hard

17 copy, 112 in e-court.

18 Mr. Ruez, I might ask you to mark on the image what the items are

19 we see here, and if you can also tell us where they were found?

20 A. So just in front of the warehouse on the right hand there was an

21 area of rubbish, and we -- we went through this -- all this rubbish and

22 found some items that had been left behind after the -- the cleaning

23 process of the inside on which we can see shell casings, fake teeth,

24 "licna karta" but without name inside, and a collection of bone fragments

25 that were shown to the anthropologist who determined it was pieces of

Page 23770

1 human bones.

2 Q. If you can circle the area of the bone fragments.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Do you recall the name of the anthropologist who made those

5 identifications?

6 A. Yes. It was William Haglund.

7 Q. If you can put your initials on that and date it, Mr. Ruez,

8 please.

9 A. [Marks]

10 JUDGE KWON: Yes. This will be admitted as the next Prosecution

11 exhibit.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4286, Your Honours.

13 THE WITNESS: I would not be able to say if the identification

14 was done on the spot during this mission or based on the photograph.

15 MR. MITCHELL:

16 Q. Thank you. Can we go to the next page, please, 103 in the hard

17 copy and 113.

18 Now, this is the same as photo number 91, which we've seen

19 earlier, and this is introducing the other end of the warehouse; is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes, that is correct. This is the -- the east part of the

22 warehouse. That is more an open space.

23 Q. Can we go to the next page, please, 104 in the hard copy and 114

24 in e-court. Can you describe what we're looking at in this photo.

25 A. This is the east wall of the -- the hangar, the wall that was

Page 23771

1 behind the prisoners.

2 Q. Could we have the next photo, please. Now, this is 105 in the

3 hard copy. If you can tell us what that yellow arrow on the right-hand

4 side of the photo is pointing to?

5 A. So this arrow points to a bloodstain from where I collected a

6 sample. The reason why I had to take this sample is that I discovered

7 after the forensic process that was done by the team of experts in this

8 place during the -- the summer 1996 that they had processed the entire

9 west part of the warehouse but, unfortunately, had forgotten to do the

10 east part. So I returned to the east part just in order to collect at

11 least one sample in order to have the lab determine if this was human

12 blood or not, and it ended up indeed being also human blood.

13 Q. And we can see some other marks on that wall. Were you able to

14 determine what those other marks were?

15 A. The wall is also riddled with obvious bullet holes.

16 Q. Can we go to the next page, 106 in the hard copy, 116 in e-court.

17 Is this just a close-up of the blood sample that we see in the previous

18 page?

19 A. Yes. This is correct. It's only a close shot of the sample.

20 Q. Could we go to page 107 in the hard copy, please, 117 in e-court.

21 Can you describe what we're looking at here, Mr. Ruez, and the

22 significance of the window that the yellow arrow is pointing to.

23 A. The -- the witness who claims having survived in this east part

24 of the warehouse said having jumped out of -- of a window at the back of

25 the warehouse, and this is the -- the arrow points to the window the

Page 23772

1 witness was referring to. He's the witness KDZ063.

2 Q. Now, did you actually go to the site with this witness, or did he

3 identify it in some other way?

4 A. We unfortunately couldn't return to the site with the witness,

5 but he identified the photograph and said that he jumped through the

6 first window in that part of the warehouse, and this is the -- this is

7 the first one. The closest to the area where the prisoners were sitting

8 when they were shot at.

9 Q. Could we look at page 108 in hard copy and 118 in e-court. If

10 you can tell us what angle we're looking at the warehouse from now.

11 A. So this photo shows the back of the warehouse and the first

12 window is again the one where the witness jumped out. He said that

13 behind was a cornfield. In -- at the time we came there is no more corn,

14 but it was indeed before that a cornfield. One could see the cut corn

15 behind it.

16 Q. Mr. Ruez, can you actually mark the window you're referring to on

17 this photo so we can be clear.

18 A. Took the wrong pen. [Marks]

19 Q. If you can initial and date that as well, please.

20 A. [Marks]

21 MR. MITCHELL: If that can be admitted, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Exhibit P4287.

23 MR. MITCHELL:

24 Q. Can we look at page 109 in the hard copy now and page 119 in

25 e-court. If you can tell us, Mr. Ruez, which part of the warehouse we're

Page 23773

1 about to see and what, if anything, is significant about this particular

2 photo.

3 A. This is again the east part but seen from the road, so the front

4 facade of this warehouse. Behind this window is the area where the

5 prisoners were sitting, and the goal of this one is to show that the

6 witness I was referring to was most probably not the only one who tried

7 to escape the killers by jumping through a window since we will have a

8 close shot of this one that will indicate that someone also jumped out of

9 this window.

10 Q. Can we go to the next page, 110 in the hard copy and 120 in

11 e-court. And if you can explain what this is.

12 A. So on the previous picture it was not obvious because of the

13 distance, but just underneath this window is a shoe trace on the wall,

14 and one can see that it is a reversed shoe print. So it's not someone

15 who climbed inside, but it is someone who jumped outside. I could point

16 you the location on the previous one now.

17 Q. Yes. If we can go back to page 109, page 119, and if you can

18 mark on that image where that shoe print is.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. And initial and date it, please.

21 A. [Marks]

22 JUDGE KWON: That will be Exhibit P4288.

23 MR. MITCHELL:

24 Q. And just to be crystal clear for our records, this is not the

25 window which the witness who you spoke to jumped out of. This is a

Page 23774

1 different window.

2 A. Yes. This one jumped in the wrong direction.

3 Q. Okay. Let's go to page 111 in the hard copy, and 121. If you

4 can just tell us very briefly what this image is.

5 A. This is a still extracted from the video of Zoran Petrovic, one

6 of the pictures that he tried to conceal from the Tribunal. On this one

7 he's just arriving on the spot together with Colonel Borovcanin, and at

8 the moment he arrives, he films for a few seconds before shutting down

9 his camera, and this is the -- the entrance at the front west of the

10 warehouse where one can see a Bosnian Serb soldier just in front at the

11 right hand of the picture and a stack of dead bodies of people who most

12 probably tried to exit the place once the shooting started and who are

13 piled up at the entrance.

14 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next page, 112 in the hard copy and 122 in

15 e-court. And can you explain to us the relationship between these three

16 photos.

17 A. Yes. So at the top is the entrance as it looked like at the time

18 of the events. At the bottom left is the door as it looked like after

19 the events. This destruction matches the part of the story explaining

20 that after the shooting that occurred in several waves was over, a

21 bulldozer entered the location in order to collect the bodies. So the

22 destruction on that door shows the necessity to having enlarged the

23 entrance for this machine to get inside.

24 Q. And the August 1997 shot.

25 A. So this one shows the reconstruction of that part of the

Page 23775

1 warehouse, but it was not reconstructed at the identical compared with

2 how it was in July 1995. It is more large now than it was at the time.

3 Q. Okay, well, let's go --

4 JUDGE KWON: Just a couple of questions, Mr. Ruez. You said

5 Mr. Zoran Petrovic, he tried to conceal that part from the Tribunal. Do

6 you remember having said that?

7 THE WITNESS: Yes.

8 JUDGE KWON: What would be your basis to say so?

9 THE WITNESS: Because when he mounted his film for broadcast, he

10 eliminated from that film the part that were the most relevant, those

11 part on which we could see prisoners, the ones in Bratunac, those sitting

12 on the balcony of the white house. And most important of all, he erased

13 from that film the piece of footage that shows the ongoing execution

14 happening when he arrives at the Kravica warehouse.

15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. And my second question is this: You

16 said:

17 "At the entrance, at the front west of the warehouse where one

18 can see a Bosnian Serb soldier just in front at the right hand the

19 picture and a stack of dead bodies of people who most probably tried to

20 exit the place once the shooting started and who are piled up at the

21 entrance."

22 What would be the basis for such observation?

23 THE WITNESS: The basis is that the people were jammed inside

24 that part of the warehouse, and since these bodies are -- are shot

25 outside the warehouse, it can only be because they tried to get out of

Page 23776

1 this place to avoid the shooting.

2 JUDGE KWON: Do you think the door is open on this picture?

3 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. I would think there was -- there has

4 never been a door. It's an open space.

5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

6 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Q. If we can go to the next payment, please, 113 in the hard copy

8 and 123 in e-court. And if you can just briefly explain this picture,

9 and we're going to go through a series of pictures quickly here to show

10 the reconstruction of the door.

11 A. Yes. This one is to indicate that once reconstructed, the door

12 is not at the original size it had at the time of the events since a

13 piece of it is now missing. One can clearly see it by comparing the

14 bullet traces on the -- on the original photograph at the time of the

15 events, the one at the top, and how it looked like later on. So a big

16 piece of it is missing.

17 Q. Can we go to the next page, please, 114 in hard copy and 124 in

18 e-court.

19 Can you explain the significance of these two lines, the white

20 line and the yellow line.

21 A. Yes. It's -- it's reference point to -- to -- again to then try

22 to check the original size of the door.

23 Q. Next photo, please, 115 in hard copy and 125 in e-court. And if

24 you can briefly explain this one to us?

25 A. Yes. So this one I made in order to determine in fact what were

Page 23777

1 the parts that were -- that were missing.

2 Q. Next page, 116, and 126 in e-court. Does this also relate to

3 the --

4 A. Yes, the same situation. It's to make sure that indeed the

5 picture that we see, the still one, though the size is not the one that

6 we could observe later, is sill indeed the relevant part of the warehouse

7 we are talking about.

8 Q. At page 117, please, 127 in e-court. Can you explain to us the

9 relationship between those two photos.

10 A. Yes. The -- the main interest of the -- of this one is that once

11 the journalist under Colonel Borovcanin arrived on the spot, the picture

12 above shows what's the status of the bullet holes on this warehouse.

13 Since on the video, original video, shots can be heard, there would be

14 two options. It could be any combat going on in the area. It could be

15 what is called a happy fire, but it could also be shots being fired at

16 the prisoners. So when one looks at how the situation was after this

17 video, one can see that there are in fact more holes in the wall than at

18 the moment the first picture during the live events was taken.

19 Q. If we can go to the next page. I think this illustrates it

20 better. Page 118, 128 in e-court. Can you just explain the significance

21 of the red circles in the bottom image?

22 A. The red circles show additional bullet holes, additional holes

23 that were shot at the wall after the photograph of the video taken by

24 Zoran Petrovic. There are three more in this area precisely, there are

25 three more -- four more shots on the wall.

Page 23778

1 Q. We're going to look at some video now of the Kravica warehouse.

2 This is 65 ter 40231, a -- and, Mr. Ruez, we're going to turn off the

3 sound and if you can talk us through what this video shows.

4 [Video-clip played]

5 MR. MITCHELL:

6 Q. Perhaps you can tell us right up front who took this video.

7 A. It could either be me or Peter Nicholson. I don't remember.

8 Q. Who is Peter Nicholson?

9 A. Peter Nicholson was a staff member of the Office of the

10 Prosecutor, and he accompanied me on all the 1996 and mainly also most of

11 the 1997 missions in this area, but he was not, let's say, a purely

12 member of the investigation team. He was doing other things, but he

13 agreed to come on the missions.

14 Q. Okay. Let's -- we stopped the footage briefly at 41 seconds. If

15 we can restart, and then, Mr. Ruez, if you can tell us what we are

16 looking at?

17 A. At this part, I was the one filming. Later on at the warehouse,

18 it was Peter Nicholson. So this one shows the -- showed previously the

19 Sandici meadow with the reference point of the destroyed house, and --

20 this was of the destroyed house, the meadow being in the back.

21 So turning the camera in a way that was more or less the one of

22 the previous video. The asphalt road going -- leading towards the

23 direction of Bratunac and the Kravica warehouse. And here the same view

24 that we had on the still, which is the direction of the warehouse at the

25 end of the white spot in the middle of the picture where I'm zooming on.

Page 23779

1 Again to show the walking distance of the second group.

2 So that's from the helicopter mission. It shows the valley at

3 the left, Bratunac; the right direction, Konjevic Polje. Here is the

4 warehouse complex. It shows the area where the witness who jumped out of

5 the window then escaped going towards the hill behind.

6 Q. Did you do any investigation at the other buildings that are part

7 of this complex?

8 A. Just a visual check, nothing conclusive, and we -- I mean, there

9 was no -- no traces that could indicate something happening then, and no

10 witness information about it also.

11 So this is the facade. Here we are in the process of checking

12 the surroundings for shell casings, grenade holders -- handles.

13 The -- as you can notice, the exit doors have a large

14 concentration of bullet holes.

15 Q. Can you tell us when this footage was taken? We can see that the

16 end door still hasn't been reconstructed.

17 A. I -- no. I don't know for this one. That was -- so it's filmed

18 by Peter Nicholson, because I just saw myself taking pictures.

19 There's the frame that we saw on the -- on the still photo, the

20 frame of the previous guardhouse inside.

21 There were some traces of blood even at the ceiling.

22 Q. And this is the inside of the west end of the warehouse; is that

23 right?

24 A. Yes. This is right, yes.

25 Q. For the record, we're around 4 minutes, 40 seconds.

Page 23780

1 A. So the place has never suffered any major change. All the traces

2 were left behind, and many years later the same collection process of

3 evidence could have been redone with the same amount of human blood,

4 human skin, human hair, traces of explosives. Everything was left in the

5 same condition years after.

6 So this is the back of the warehouse.

7 Q. We're now at around 5 minutes and 50 seconds on the video.

8 A. So this is the cornfield behind the -- the warehouse. This is a

9 zoom on a shell casing. There were several still scattered around.

10 A shell casing. Another shell casing.

11 So the quality is not really good because at that time we had

12 video cameras without steady shots, so it's always trembling and ...

13 So now again the front of the warehouse. The east part.

14 Q. We're at around 7 minutes, 45 seconds.

15 A. So entering the east part and the prisoners were at the left of

16 it where the -- not in this direction. That was the direction towards

17 the open space. And now it's turning towards the -- the area where the

18 prisoners were, this area here.

19 Q. We might stop there, 8 minutes, 50.

20 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, if I can tender that clip.

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That will be admitted.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4289, Your Honours.

23 MR. MITCHELL:

24 Q. Mr. Ruez, that finished the section on the Kravica warehouse.

25 We're going to move now to -- back to your book, 65 ter 3199, and if we

Page 23781

1 can look at page 119 in the hard copy and 129 in e-court. What we're

2 about to see is an aerial image of Bratunac city. And if you can just

3 briefly tell us who put those yellow markings on there, and then I think

4 there's a better photo of Bratunac that we'll take a quick look at.

5 A. So this is an aerial photograph dated 12 July. The interest of

6 it is only to point various locations of relevance.

7 Q. Well, why don't -- why don't we go to page 272 in the hard copy.

8 It's the very back page of the book. 282 in e-court. If we can rotate

9 that to the left. Maybe scroll down a little bit.

10 Okay. If you can explain to us the significance of these sites

11 that are marked here.

12 A. So, this is in order to spot in Bratunac town the main -- the

13 main places of -- of interest and where prisoners were locked into, the

14 locations of the buses, lines of buses that were in various parts of this

15 small town, so under the eyes of everyone. Everyone was aware of what

16 was going on in this small area due to the amount of people jammed on the

17 inside.

18 Q. Sorry, if I stop you there for a moment. What is the basis of

19 your knowledge that this is where the buses were?

20 A. It's a combination of mainly two sources, those who were inside

21 the locations or in lines of buses and also locations that were spotted

22 by the UN soldiers who were kept in Bratunac during these days and who

23 moved, for example, to go to the Bratunac Brigade for some of them who

24 saw buses in front.

25 Q. Okay. We can see on the left of the picture the old school, the

Page 23782

1 hangar, and the Vuk Karadzic school marked there.

2 A. Yes. These are the locations we already went through previously.

3 In addition, it spots the lines of buses in front of the Vihor garage,

4 also in front of the Vuk Karadzic school, a line of bus. Very close to

5 the Hotel Fontana, which is the hotel where during the 12 and -- yeah,

6 the 11th in the evening and the 12th in the morning where the meetings

7 with the so-called representatives of Srebrenica who were called in by

8 General Mladic. An interesting spot also is the location of the office

9 of Miroslav Deronjic, who was the SDS leader, in this -- in this area

10 right in the middle of where the situation took place. And there is

11 one -- one spot that we did not mark because the information was

12 confirmed later. We had information that people had been taken to a

13 place I never talked about, which is the soccer field, and it's only

14 after the guilty plea of Momir Nikolic that we could confirm, since there

15 was no one who survived the situation, that the prisoners were taken to

16 the soccer field and executed there.

17 Q. Perhaps you can just mark for us on this image where the soccer

18 field is.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. And just initial and date it.

21 A. [Marks]

22 JUDGE KWON: This is also part of aerial images provided by the

23 US?

24 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, absolutely. Not exactly provided by the

25 US. In fact, it is aerial imagery that was used by the US forces in the

Page 23783

1 area as a kind of operational map, supportive map. It was not done

2 specifically for our purpose.

3 JUDGE KWON: So it was not taken on the day of 12th of July?

4 THE WITNESS: We have no date for this one.

5 JUDGE KWON: So you marked buses on several places in this.

6 Whether you, or -- I'm not sure whether it was you, but do you see buses

7 on this picture?

8 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. It's a visual spotting of buses

9 according to the testimonies.

10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

11 MR. MITCHELL: If I can tender that marked image.

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That would be next exhibit.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4290, Your Honours.

14 MR. MITCHELL:

15 Q. Can we go back now to page 120 in the hard copy, 130 in e-court.

16 Mr. Ruez, this is a picture of the three buildings that we just

17 referred to; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. Do you know, are all those buildings still there today, or --

20 A. I would think so. The only one that could deserve total

21 destruction maybe would be this older hangar, but the rest is most

22 certainly in use. It's -- it's a panorama reconstructed, in fact. When

23 you enter the yard behind the Vuk Karadzic school, this shows roughly

24 what you would see. The back of the main school building at the left,

25 the gym after that, the white -- the white part of it, the side of a gym,

Page 23784

1 the hangar, and the so-called "old school."

2 Q. Some witnesses sometimes refer to a stadium or a playground in

3 Bratunac. Is that the same thing as the soccer field?

4 A. I would think so. I -- I don't know.

5 Q. Okay. Very briefly let's look at the next image, page 121 in

6 hard copy, 131 in e-court.

7 Now, this -- this is an aerial image that doesn't have a date on

8 it. Who removed the date from this image?

9 A. I can't remember, but the reason why probably the date was taken

10 away is because this one was initially used to mark -- well, both the

11 complex -- the school complex area and the line of buses as they were

12 during the night between the 13 and the 14. So though buses can be seen

13 on this photograph, that is of -- therefore probably dated 12 or 13, but

14 the goal was not to show where the buses were on the photo but where they

15 were later once all the prisoners were regrouped in Bratunac.

16 Q. So those -- the three red lines just represent where buses were,

17 not specifically on this image, but on the night of 13 July and the

18 circle is the Vuk Karadzic school complex?

19 A. Yes, absolutely.

20 Q. Let's move to another area, page 122 and 132 in e-court. Can you

21 tell us where the next series of photos relate to.

22 A. So this is the start of the following phase because we went

23 through the execution sites in the area that we call the area south which

24 is, in brackets, the non-organised killing process that occurred during

25 the day of the 13, and now we enter the area north where the really

Page 23785

1 thorough, well-organised extermination takes place during the days of

2 14 July, 15, and 16 July, 1995.

3 Q. Okay. So where's the specific site we're going to look at next?

4 A. The first one is the area of Orahovac where the first convoy of

5 prisoners that left Bratunac town, because one thing we did not say yet

6 is that after the -- the executions of the 13 July all the people who

7 were on the blue spots, the regroupment of prisoners, all of them were

8 then transported to Bratunac town. The reason why at the end of the day

9 of the 13 Bratunac town was completely jammed with these prisoners either

10 in hard facilities or in lines of buses and trucks because all these hard

11 facilities were full. And after around midnight, between 13 and 14 July,

12 the first columns of buses shipped all these prisoners towards the area

13 north where the security officers had the day before spotted detention

14 sites and close-by execution sites.

15 Q. Okay.

16 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. I'm going to object. I

17 think the testimony is going far beyond the perimeters of the

18 Appeals Chamber decision. This witness is summarising a lot of evidence

19 he -- that has been received by the OTP by witnesses, not testifying to

20 things out of his own knowledge. I think it's legitimate for him to

21 depict any site that he would like to do that and explain to the Chamber

22 in general why he is depicting that site, but to be telling us about

23 exterminations, the involvement of security officers and the like is

24 simply something that should be done by witnesses themselves either

25 through live testimony or admission of their evidence under Rule 92 bis.

Page 23786

1 And under the Milosevic case decision, I think he's going too far.

2 MR. MITCHELL: If I can respond to --

3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. But could you not simply rely on the

4 Chamber's commitment that it will not rely on this witness to find the

5 substantive matters.

6 MR. ROBINSON: We appreciate that commitment, but I would imagine

7 that you had the same commitment in the Milosevic case and the

8 Appeals Chamber said that the testimony is inadmissible, so it seems to

9 be a matter of admissibility --

10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, Mr. Ruez is different from the

11 Barney Kelly case.

12 Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

13 MR. MITCHELL: I was just going to say that, Mr. President. I

14 actually have copies of their decision here because I thought this might

15 come up. This situation is fundamentally different from the Milosevic

16 situation where an investigator was summarising witness statements and

17 then putting them before the Chamber, and there was no intention to bring

18 the underlying statements before the Chamber in this case. And as you've

19 seen, we've made an effort to refer back to the witnesses who Mr. Ruez is

20 relying on, and I think in the Milosevic appeal decision the

21 Appeals Chamber actually said the basic issue was whether the material

22 itself that was being summarised was itself admissible. That was really

23 the issue and whether the Defence would have an opportunity to challenge

24 that underlying evidence. In this case, they certainly will.

25 JUDGE KWON: But in any event, when Mr. Ruez said that the

Page 23787

1 security officers chose that or pointed out the position, I think it was

2 a bit of a stretch. Do you follow?

3 MR. MITCHELL: I do, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We can continue.

5 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you.

6 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Mitchell, when you made reference to the

7 exterminations, I think this might be one of the areas.

8 MR. MITCHELL: I take your point, Judge. Thank you.

9 Q. Mr. Ruez, we'll just stick to -- we'll go straight to the site

10 and start talking about some of the findings of your investigation. If

11 we can go to page 123 in the hard copy, 133 in e-court.

12 And before you tell us about this photo, can you describe what

13 was the first -- or the information that first led you to investigate

14 this site.

15 A. So we had a description of a school nearby Zvornik that had a gym

16 and that was close to a railroad line. We had difficulties to identify

17 the area since on the available maps we didn't have the railroad line,

18 but with the assistance of someone in Tuzla, we ended up with a map and

19 could spot this place. After having been there for the first time, we

20 could show the photographs which were identified by the witnesses.

21 Q. And can you just orient us on this specific picture, where the

22 school is, where the gym is, and if there are -- perhaps you can also

23 mark on it the direction of the road we can see just turning out to the

24 bottom left of the photo.

25 A. So this is the -- the school, the road being in front. This is

Page 23788

1 the gym -- labels. The gym. The school. The playground. This is the

2 direction towards the exit site. And this road here leads to the road

3 that goes from Zvornik to Tuzla, the Lasva road.

4 Q. Can you also just mark the playground that you referred to

5 earlier.

6 A. [Marks]

7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That will be Exhibit P4291.

8 MR. MITCHELL:

9 Q. Now, Mr. Ruez, we can see this is referred to as the

10 Grbavci school. Is that the same as what's known now as the Orahovac

11 school?

12 A. Yes, correct. We used the names at the early stages because

13 these were the names we had on the maps we had available, but indeed then

14 it changed and all these places are now under the name of Orahovac.

15 Q. Can we go to the next photo, please, 124 in the hard copy, 134 in

16 e-court. Can you explain or describe what we see in this photo and what

17 the significance of that particular fence is that you have labelled.

18 A. Yes. The witnesses told that when they arrived, the busses

19 stopped in front of the gym. They stepped inside by walking along a

20 fence, and before entering they had dropped their belongings on a stack

21 at this entrance. So on this picture you can see the asphalt road being

22 just in front, the school building at the right, the gym at the left and

23 this fence that leads towards the gym. That's one of the characteristics

24 that was later recognised by the witnesses.

25 Q. When you refer to the witnesses, can you see any of their names

Page 23789

1 on that list, and if you can, can you tell us their witness codes?

2 A. Yes. So the witnesses are three of them. KDZ064, the witness

3 KDZ039.

4 Q. And I understand there is one of them who doesn't have a

5 pseudonym?

6 A. Yes. He's Mevludin Oric.

7 Q. Okay. Could we go to the next photo, page 125, page 135 in

8 e-court. Can you tell us first what this photo is and what is the

9 significance of the labels "Entrance" and "Exit."

10 A. When entering the gym, the people step inside through the door

11 that is marked "Entrance." They were then brought to sit in this gym in

12 rows, each row having the back against the previous row, and at the

13 moment they started to bring the people to the execution site the little

14 groups, because it was with the little TAM trucks of little group by

15 little group, they were led through this exit door that leads first to a

16 wardrobe area where they were given a sip of water and getting

17 blindfolded, and then there is another exit door more on the

18 right - you'll see it later - from where they stepped inside the TAM

19 truck.

20 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next photo, page 126, 136 in e-court. And

21 if you can just describe both, what's on this photo and the next one, 126

22 and 127.

23 A. Mm-hmm. The witnesses say that from time to time if there was a

24 bit too much noise inside the warehouse, prisoners communicating each

25 with the others, those guarding them were -- fired shots in the air. So

Page 23790

1 this is a hole in the aluminum ceiling that shows a hole in this ceiling.

2 The arrow points to it.

3 Q. And the next photo, just very briefly, 127?

4 A. That is another shot showing a holes. A hole, a hole.

5 Q. So 128 in hard copy, 138 in e-court. Can you describe again what

6 this is.

7 A. This is a photograph that was used to show to the witnesses to

8 check if it matches the description they made of the line of windows

9 inside this warehouse, for those who were oriented towards these windows,

10 others facing the opposite direction.

11 Q. And did the witnesses confirm that this did match their -- their

12 recollection?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The next page, please, 129 in the hard copy, 139 in e-court.

15 A. This is a closer shot of one of these windows with holes inside.

16 Q. Page 130, and 140 in e-court, please. And if you can describe to

17 us when this picture comes up -- if we can start with the structure in

18 the top left corner.

19 A. Mm-hmm.

20 Q. If you can describe what that is.

21 A. So this is a photograph with the date on it. It's the

22 11 April 1996. It was our first visit in order to have a -- a thorough

23 search of the place. The first visit was a very short stop during the

24 mission with John Shattuck in January 1996.

25 So on this one, at the top right we can see the structure of the

Page 23791

1 school. And --

2 Q. Perhaps you can actually mark this one. Thank you.

3 A. So this is the exit door of the wardrobe of the gym where the TAM

4 truck was waiting to take the people. That's the vehicle. And then

5 driving out, here is an area of rubbish after the cleaning of the school

6 but that was left there. So we went, as we always do, through the piles

7 of rubbish we come across in these spots.

8 Q. Now, just looking at the door just to the left of where you've

9 written gym, did that change in any day during your subsequent visits to

10 the site?

11 A. Yes. On the following visit to this place, this door was

12 completely sealed. But this one of April 1996 shows that it was not

13 sealed before later.

14 Q. Can you initial this photo and just date it, please.

15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Exhibit P4292.

16 MR. MITCHELL:

17 Q. Now, if we can go to the next page now, 131, 141 in e-court.

18 JUDGE KWON: Shall we take a break now if it is convenient?

19 MR. MITCHELL: It is convenient, Mr. President. Thank you.

20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll break for half an hour and resume

21 at quarter past 12.00.

22 --- Recess taken at 11.43 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 12.16 p.m.

24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.

25 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd like to introduce

Page 23792

1 Nikola Sarajlic, who is from Republika Srpska, and is working as an

2 intern with our case managers. Thank you.

3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

4 Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

5 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. Can we please go to page 131 in your book, 141 in e-court.

7 Mr. Ruez, can you tell us, firstly starting with the big picture,

8 what are the items we're looking at, and where did they come from?

9 A. So, as I said there was this pile of rubbish in the courtyard --

10 playground, sorry, and going through the items we found inside we lined

11 up those of relevance, which were strips of cloth since the witnesses

12 told us that they were blindfolded before leaving the gym, as well as a

13 certain number of shell casings and also a few live ammunition that were

14 found there and that I handed for destruction.

15 Q. And is that the shell casings we can see in the inset picture in

16 the top right-hand corner?

17 A. Yes. These are the shell casings we found there.

18 Q. Next page, please, 132 in hard copy, 142 in e-court. If you can

19 just briefly describe what this photo shows, Mr. Ruez.

20 A. So this one shows various type of cloth, including some, but they

21 are attached to -- it's a piece of track from a tank or a bulldozer or

22 whatever, heavy machine.

23 Q. And we can see a date in the bottom right-hand corner of the

24 photo. Can you tell us what that date is?

25 A. Yes. It is the date of this mission, 11 of April, 1996.

Page 23793

1 Q. Next photo, please. 133 in hard copy, 143 in e-court. If you

2 can describe each of these photos starting with the one in the top

3 left-hand corner with the number 2.

4 A. All of them are examples of various types of cloth that were

5 found in the area with labels on them so that -- to identify them further

6 once they are turned into evidence.

7 Q. And these all came from that pile of rubbish in the playground in

8 the Orahovac school?

9 A. Yes. All those we found that day came from this pile of rubbish.

10 Q. Now, was any of the strips of cloth that you recovered from the

11 school analysed in any way?

12 A. Yes. I -- after this process since there were many, I made a

13 collection of the various obvious types by texture and colour, and all

14 those were sent to the forensic lab in order to be later on compared with

15 the same type of cloth that would be found in other areas or mainly those

16 found later in the mass graves.

17 MR. MITCHELL: And, Mr. President, just for the record,

18 Mr. Manning will be discussing those findings in a little more detail in

19 his evidence.

20 Q. Can we go to the next page, 134, and 144 in e-court. And

21 firstly, can you tell us when this photo was taken, what year?

22 A. So this one was taken not that same year, because this is how it

23 looked like after the April mission. So I can't remember precisely

24 the -- the date of this one, but it's at least the following season.

25 Q. And what's significant about it?

Page 23794

1 A. Only thing is that at this point it could not be able to match

2 the testimony of the witnesses, since they claimed having exited the gym

3 through this door. At this moment there had we not been in the place

4 before, it would be hard to think that someone could get out of this

5 door.

6 Q. We're going to look at a short video now of the school, and again

7 same as last time, we won't have any sound, and if you can describe to us

8 what we're seeing in this video. It's 65 ter 40232A.

9 [Video-clip played]

10 MR. MITCHELL:

11 Q. If you can start off by telling us who took the video and when it

12 was taken?

13 A. I took the video, and it was in 1998. So here is the school

14 first seen from above. This one is not from 1998. It's the first

15 entrance in January 1996. The very first moment we could step inside for

16 a very short moment, just more or less get in and get out. It was during

17 the mission with John Shattuck. So that's where the people entered the

18 gym, the windows on the right, the door at the left from where -- this is

19 the entrance. This is the exit. And at that time there were still

20 cloths inside the gym. That's the -- the rubbish pile was most certainly

21 created after that. Here is already the garbage.

22 So now -- now this one is the one of the April mission. It's a

23 mixture of various different moments. This is the April mission. So

24 these are the shell casings seen on the previous photograph. At this

25 moment Peter Nicholson who filmed the video was counting them. That's

Page 23795

1 why it stays a bit long on -- on the picture.

2 Empty ammunition boxes, some gas canisters, and cloth.

3 MR. MITCHELL: I'd like to tender at that clip, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE KWON: Yes. This will be admitted as Exhibit P4293.

5 MR. MITCHELL:

6 Q. Let's move on from the Orahovac school and go to page 135 of your

7 book, 145 in e-court. If you can just describe what's on this picture

8 and explain how you first came to find those two sites marked as

9 Execution site 1 and Execution site 2.

10 A. So on these two photographs that make only one, this

11 Grbavci school is labelled as being totally at the left of the picture --

12 Q. Mr. Ruez, if you want to mark this picture, please do so.

13 A. Everything is already marked on it. The arrow points to the

14 Grbavci school that is just at the limit of the frame at the left. On

15 top is the -- the straight line is the railroad, and more at the bottom

16 the asphalt road leading at approximately 800 metres to a left turn of a

17 small piece of dirt road that leads under the railroad, which is at a

18 height of a bit less than 3 metres, with a little tunnel underneath that

19 leads to the execution site, the first one that was used, the site 1, the

20 second site being, in fact, in front just at the edge of the road.

21 Finding this place could only be done with aerial imagery,

22 because it's -- the site is quite well hidden behind this railroad. None

23 of the witnesses could -- could have helped us finding it. Two of them

24 were talking about a distance of drive of a bit more than five minutes.

25 One of them said 20 minutes, but it's clear that the assessment of time

Page 23796

1 at such moments is quite difficult for these people, so we had no real

2 idea of the distance.

3 Q. Why don't we just bought there for a moment. We'll move to the

4 next photo, and then if you can continue your explanation. This is --

5 actually, we'll skip over one. Go to page 137 in the hard copy, 147 in

6 e-court.

7 If you can continue your explanation.

8 A. So it's through an imagery request that we could spot precisely

9 where we had to orient ourselves, and as you can see on these two

10 photographs, the road to the school is marked on the left, the railroad,

11 and in this specific area at the 27 July one can see two areas of obvious

12 disturbance of soil. The one labelled LZ-2 is at the execution site 1

13 which is the one behind the railroad, bottom right; and the one at the

14 top is labelled LZ, 1 but in fact it's the execution site number 2.

15 Q. LZ refers to Lazete; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And why are these sites called Lazete?

18 A. Because the name Orahovac came later and on the map we had at

19 that time, the area around Grbavci school was labelled as being Lazete.

20 This is why we gave it the code-name LZ, like Lazete.

21 Q. Let's go to the next page, page 138 in hard copy, 148 in e-court.

22 This is labelled LZ-2. If you can just briefly explain the significance

23 of the area that the yellow arrow is pointing to?

24 A. LZ-2 is in fact execution site 1 since the execution started with

25 those who were taken first out of the gym. Under this railroad which is,

Page 23797

1 as I said, on an elevation nearly 3 metres high is an underpass that then

2 leads to this open area. At the left a wood and at the right a field. I

3 don't remember what it was called or something like this. So it's in

4 this open space that the execution began.

5 Q. Let's go to the next page, 139 in hard copy, 149 in e-court. And

6 can you just tell us again, is this the LZ-1 or the LZ-2 site we're

7 looking at here?

8 A. This is LZ-2.

9 Q. And what are the yellow markers we can see on the ground?

10 A. So this being a preliminary mission in order to assess the site

11 and determine if there disturbance seen on the picture had indeed a

12 direct relationship with the events that we were looking into, we made a

13 surface check of this area of disturbance, and these markers spot various

14 items being in relation with the case.

15 Q. We'll look at a few of those items in more detail now. Can we go

16 to the next page, 140 in hard copy, and 150 in e-court.

17 If you can describe what the object next to the number 25 tag is

18 and what the basis of your knowledge is about this object.

19 A. We -- we were on this mission in company of Bill Haglund, and he

20 is the one who told us what these items, for most of them, were. This

21 one is a human femur, the number 25.

22 Q. Next photo, please, 141 in hard copy, 151 in e-court.

23 A. The 32 is a human jaw.

24 Q. And that was identified by Dr. Haglund?

25 A. Absolutely.

Page 23798

1 Q. Next page, please, 142 and 152 in e-court. What's the item just

2 in front of the number 17 tag?

3 A. This is a shell casing.

4 Q. Next photo, 143, page 153 in e-court.

5 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me, Mr. Mitchell.

6 MR. MITCHELL: Yes.

7 JUDGE KWON: Could we see page 137 briefly again. That's the

8 aerial image. So on this photo Grbavci school should be above the photo.

9 THE WITNESS: Yes. Above. Top right. Direction top right.

10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. I was confused with this direction of

11 the arrows, so it -- it didn't move that way. The other way round.

12 THE WITNESS: No, because where the arrow is they never went.

13 But there was no space to put the arrow at the top right because of the

14 marking of two areas of disturbed earth, but I will mark one reference

15 point. The way the vehicles, the little trucks brought the people is

16 this one. To site 1. And at the final stage, it was the site 2. Site 1

17 being Lazete 2, and site 2 being Lazete 1. But at the time we didn't

18 know about the real chronology of the events. The first assuming was

19 that they first used the most easy place, which is the Lazete 1 and then

20 the more remote one, but in reality it's totally reversed. The survivors

21 all talk about Lazete 2 which is the first execution site and there is

22 actually no survivors from the site -- the second site.

23 JUDGE KWON: Could you mark the arrow in order to know the

24 direction at the end of that line, yes. No, on the left side. You

25 marked the direction. The head of an arrow. No. "To school." Thank

Page 23799

1 you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Shall we mark it as the next exhibit?

4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4294, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

6 MR. MITCHELL:

7 Q. Mr. Ruez, you just said the survivors all talk about Lazete 2.

8 Are they the three names that you provided earlier?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Can we go back to --

11 JUDGE KWON: My apologies. I was told that the Registry just

12 lost the image. Could you kindly do the marking again.

13 THE WITNESS: Redoing it, no problem. [Marks]

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

15 MR. MITCHELL:

16 Q. Let's go back to page 143 in the hard copy and 153 in e-court.

17 And if you can just describe the object to the right of the number 43

18 marker.

19 A. Yes. It's cloth, one knotted and one being a piece of clothing.

20 Q. And this is again at the LZ-2 site.

21 A. It is LZ-2, yes.

22 Q. And next photo, please, 143 -- 144 in hard copy, 154 in e-court.

23 A. This is just a larger view of -- of items we have shown, one

24 shell casing, the piece of cloth, just to show how the items are spread

25 due to the use of all this heavy equipment. The items on the surface are

Page 23800

1 spread all over the place.

2 Q. Next photo, please, 145 and 155 in e-court. First, is this still

3 the LZ-2 site?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. Now, what's the significance of the area that's marked by the

6 yellow tape in this photo?

7 A. So this area is most probably the one the witnesses are referring

8 to as a rest area for the soldiers who were executing the prisoners.

9 It's where they were reloading their guns.

10 Q. And did you go to the site with any of the three survivors?

11 A. With one of them we -- we went, and this is where we had the

12 confirmation that without aerial imagery, we would never have found the

13 spot even with the witness, since we walked along the asphalt road and he

14 passed by the site without recognising nothing, because from the road

15 you -- you could not see anything there. So we had to then orient him

16 right on the spot so that he could retake his bearings.

17 Q. Can you see his witness code on that list in front of you, the

18 particular individual you went there with?

19 A. Yes. KDZ064.

20 Q. Thank you. Can we go to the next page, please, 146 and 156 in

21 e-court. Now, can you tell us what the object in this photo is and where

22 it was found?

23 A. So this one was found on the so-called rest area among a few

24 others of these. It's a little -- it's a packaging of -- of rounds,

25 ammunition.

Page 23801

1 Q. Do you recall what type of ammunition the packaging is for?

2 A. It is written on the box. It's for 7.62 calibre ammunition.

3 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We can turn it around and zoom it further so

4 that ...

5 We can zoom in.

6 MR. MITCHELL: We could zoom maybe a bit more.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes. 7.62, I see, yes.

8 THE WITNESS: It's the most common calibre in use by all the --

9 the small weaponry in use by the former JNA and all the army forces down

10 there.

11 MR. MITCHELL:

12 Q. Let's go to the next photo, 147 in hard copy, 157 in e-court.

13 And again if you can describe what this object is and where it was found.

14 A. So this -- this one was found at the -- at the top of this

15 so-called rest area. One witness overheard the killers say when they

16 switched from one side to another, Take the ammunition box. And this one

17 was empty and left behind, obviously. It was just at the edge of the

18 wooden area at the top of this rest area.

19 Q. Let's go to the next photo, 148 and page 158 in e-court. And if

20 you can just describe.

21 A. So this is a metal box that contains more than 1.000 rounds

22 inside packaged -- inside smaller packets of paper packets, the ones that

23 we found, for example, on this rest area.

24 Q. And this is the same box we saw in the previous photo; is that

25 correct?

Page 23802

1 A. The -- the box that we saw on the round, the small white one, is

2 one of the many who are inside such an aluminum box.

3 Q. But the box immediately before this box on it's side -- perhaps

4 we can go back one page to 147. So this is the same box?

5 A. Oh, yes, yes. This is how we found it, and then I flipped it

6 over to take the photo of what it is.

7 Q. If we can go back to 148 and just zoom in on the box so we can

8 see the calibre of ammunition it contained.

9 If you could just read that out for the record, Mr. Ruez.

10 A. So 1200 -- it's maybe 86 or 66 - I don't read it very well - of

11 7.62, then it's in Cyrillic, but it's millimetre. It's the calibre of

12 ammunition. And the serial number of the box at the bottom.

13 Q. Let's go to the next photo, page 149 in hard copy, 159 in

14 e-court. And if you can -- well, firstly, this isn't a box that was

15 found at that site, is it?

16 A. No, not at all. We found it in a completely different location

17 where we were looking for possible -- possible burial place in a cave

18 where we didn't find any body, but we found an ammunition dump among

19 which was this metal and -- first wooden box, metal box inside and then

20 the little paper boxes, and I used this photograph in order to explain

21 how the packaging is. So the metal box we found is the same style of

22 metal box containing ammunition. On this one it's more even easy to

23 read, and inside are these smaller boxes that contain the rounds.

24 Q. So this is just purely an example?

25 A. That's purely an example to show how this packaging is made.

Page 23803

1 Q. Could we go to the next page, 150 in hard copy and 160 in

2 e-court. And this is the LZ-2 site again; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, it is correct.

4 Q. And if you can just explain the significance of the red arrow --

5 or the orange arrow.

6 A. So in fact again these -- the execution site is here. The -- the

7 rest area we were talking about is here, and this is the underpass that

8 leads from the school to the site, but once the execution here was over,

9 the witnesses said once the -- the entire meadow was full of bodies.

10 This was something for us later important, because when we found the site

11 on the opposite side, it's impossible to figure out that the site could

12 be covered with bodies because it's much too big, but this site, the

13 site 1 that witnesses talk about indeed has the sizes of -- due to the

14 amount of people who were later found could cover the entire area. So

15 after this execution was completed, the killers returned through this

16 underpass to hit the other side of the railroad line that is sandwiched

17 between the railroad line and the asphalt road.

18 Q. Thank you. Can you initial and date this, please.

19 A. [Marks]

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. This will be the next exhibit.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4295, Your Honours.

22 MR. MITCHELL:

23 Q. Let's go to the next photo, 151 in hard copy, 161 in e-court.

24 The next page, please, 161.

25 Can you briefly describe this to us, Mr. Ruez. And perhaps to

Page 23804

1 orient us, if you can put an arrow in the direction of where the LZ-2 is,

2 the LZ-2 site.

3 A. Yes. On the right is the railroad line that goes towards

4 Zvornik. One of the survivors, after having left the execution site 1,

5 went above this railroad line and walked until he saw the lights and

6 recognised the Zvornik area.

7 Underneath is the underpass, the site 1 being a -- LZ-2 being

8 here. So going underneath. This is the road to the school. So this is

9 the -- the last execution site. Those who were still in the school were

10 taken and just shot on this open area here.

11 Q. That's the area with the yellow circle?

12 A. Yes, the area with the yellow circle. This house did not exist

13 in that location during the summer 1995. It was constructed after.

14 Q. Could you also mark on this photo the direction the trucks took

15 to get to the LZ-2 site.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Thank you. Can you initial and date this, please.

18 A. [Marks]

19 JUDGE KWON: Exhibit P4296.

20 MR. MITCHELL:

21 Q. Next page, please, 152 in hard copy and 162 in e-court. We're

22 going to see an aerial shot or photo taken from the air of these two

23 sites. If you can just orient us on this picture again.

24 A. So the -- the school being -- being at the left, bottom left.

25 Direction of the trucks towards the execution site, and then Lazete 1.

Page 23805

1 So on this one it's much clearer to see the situation, knowing that those

2 who survives in this place, except the one who walked the railroad, the

3 others they did hid through this direction, through the forest.

4 Q. Can you initial and date that one, please.

5 A. [Marks]

6 JUDGE KWON: Exhibit 4297.

7 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. If we can go to the next page, 153 in hard copy and 163 in

9 e-court, and we'll just move briefly through the next three photos,

10 Mr. Ruez, and come to a video that shows much of the same material?

11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12 JUDGE KWON: There's some technical problems, but we can save the

13 image from video. We can carry on, Mr. Mitchell.

14 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Q. Can we look at the next page, 153. It's 163 in e-court.

16 Mr. Ruez, if you can just briefly tell us what we can see in this photo?

17 A. So this is a rubbish dump site very close by of the Lazete 2 area

18 through which, as we always do, we went through in order to see if there

19 was any link with the previous site.

20 Q. Let's have a look at the next photo, 154, and 164 in e-court. If

21 you can very briefly tell us what this is.

22 A. So this is a part of the content of the -- the rubbish dump site.

23 We are in the beginning of the process of going through it.

24 In this place here, in fact it's mainly socks, hats. I mean,

25 personal belongings, let's call them like this. These ones. Clothing.

Page 23806

1 And more interesting also is these ones, but on the video I think you

2 wanted to show -- we can see more.

3 Q. We'll get to the video in a moment.

4 A. This is cloth, blindfold size.

5 MR. MITCHELL: Is it possible to save that, or are there

6 problems?

7 Q. Mr. Ruez, if you could initial and date. Thank you.

8 A. [Marks]

9 JUDGE KWON: This will be Exhibit P4298.

10 THE WITNESS: The same type of -- the same colour of -- as the

11 ones that were found at Grbavci school.

12 Q. Let's look at the next page, 155 and 165 in e-court. The yellow

13 arrow on the right points to that dump site that we just saw on the

14 previous two photos; is that right?

15 A. Yes, that's right. The dump site is precisely here.

16 JUDGE KWON: I don't think we need to mark -- keep this

17 separately.

18 MR. MITCHELL: No. We won't take this one, Mr. President.

19 Q. I'd like to show you a video now, Mr. Ruez, and as with the last

20 two, we'll turn off the sound and just have you describe what we're

21 looking at. This is 65 ter 40226A.

22 [Video-clip played]

23 THE WITNESS: So, again, an aerial view of the school and then

24 the road leading to the execution site at the left of it. So we turn

25 around in order to -- to show the distance between the school and the

Page 23807

1 site, but we measured the distance with a true metre. And I think I

2 remember it, it was 800 metres.

3 So here the turn left, going through the underpass, the railroad.

4 So now seen from the ground. The LZ-2.

5 MR. MITCHELL:

6 Q. Do you recall when this video was taken?

7 A. Yes. It was the -- hmm. It was during this first -- this first

8 mission, so I think we had the date on the photos, if I'm not wrong.

9 Q. We can come back to that. If you --

10 A. Probably it was April. It was the mission of April.

11 Q. If you could just continue with the --

12 A. April 1996. Mm-hmm.

13 Q. If you could continue with the description of the image?

14 A. So that's the beginning of a dig. And this specific mud is

15 created by the decomposition of the bodies. It's green-ish. Makes a

16 clear difference with the normal soil. It's the decomposition that makes

17 the mud be so greenish. A shell casing, clothing. The initial dig was,

18 as you can imagine, not very easy because of the mud, the rain. So we

19 couldn't go really deep in this one, but there were enough items all

20 around to be quite certain that there were multiple bodies underneath. A

21 bone.

22 Q. Do you recall who this is in the footage at the moment?

23 A. Yes. This is Bill Haglund with yellow clothing and the red

24 rubber gloves. Bill was on these preliminary missions, and it is thanks

25 to his presence that the exhumation process could start at the very early

Page 23808

1 stage, as soon as 1996.

2 That is the area of rubbish where the dump site was found.

3 Behind these bushes one can see the road line -- the railroad, sorry.

4 And that's now the result of the search done in this -- on this

5 site. So at this moment we are describing the items. So these are

6 socks. Describing and counting. Hats. And pieces of cloth. I think

7 there were some 110 pieces left in the dump site. Some of them being

8 without -- without further technical expertise that was done by the lab,

9 but clearly obviously the same ones than those at the Grbavci school, but

10 the connections were made later also with the grave and so on.

11 Dean Manning will be the one unfolding all this.

12 Ammunition, some live, some used. It's a canister of something.

13 Some personal items. Some photographs.

14 MR. MITCHELL: I'd like to tender that video, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That will be Exhibit P4299.

16 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, we're going to move to a completely

17 new site now. I can start if you'd like, or we can start with a fresh

18 site on Monday.

19 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's adjourn for today.

20 Mr. Ruez, in order to accommodate the next witness, I was told

21 that Prosecution has decided to interpose his evidence during your

22 testimony, so I apologise on -- on behalf -- for your inconvenience.

23 On Monday we'll start in the afternoon, i.e., quarter past 2.00,

24 and we'll hear evidence of Mr. Haglund. Is that correct?

25 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, what might be easier is Dr. Haglund