120209ED

Page 24366

1 Mr. Davidovic, your testimony in the Popovic et al. case has been

2 admitted in this case in lieu of your testimony in chief, and that you

3 will be further asked by Mr. Karadzic in his cross-examination.

4 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good morning,

6 Excellencies. Good morning to all.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Davidovic.

9 A. Good morning, Mr. President.

10 Q. I'm following the interpretation to see when it's over, and if

11 you have the transcript, then you can see when the interpretation is

12 over, and we should pause. And I would like to thank you for the

13 video-conference -- the video meeting we held, and I hope that it will

14 make it possible for us to finish this cross-examination on time, and

15 thank you once again.

16 A. What I have here is English. No, I haven't got anything in

17 Serbian yet.

18 Q. Yes, it will in English all along, but when the typing stops,

19 that means that you can speak then.

20 A. I'll do my best.

21 Q. Thank you. So before the elections in 1990, you were in a party

22 of the political left, and you were not a member of the SDS; right?

23 A. That's right. The Social Democratic Party.

24 Q. Thank you. However, in 1994, isn't that right, you were elected

25 head of the local government, actually of the Executive Council, which is

Page 24367

1 the municipal government, not because you were a member of the SDS,

2 because you were not a member of the SDS at that point in time; isn't

3 that right?

4 A. That is right.

5 Q. Rather, you were elected as a professional.

6 A. It wasn't party affiliation that was decisive.

7 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you to tell us as briefly as

8 possible how you viewed developments in Bratunac after the elections and

9 at the very beginning of the war. Do you agree that the

10 Party of Democratic Action and the Serb Democratic Party had won there

11 and that they shared power according to the model that prevailed

12 throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13 A. Both of these parties had won. The SDS won the votes of the Serb

14 people; the SDA won the votes of the Muslim people. My party,

15 unfortunately, remained as a minority party, and quite a minority at

16 that. So it was those two parties that shared power, the SDA and the

17 SDS.

18 Q. Thank you. Did we agree that this was a good custom in our

19 political life even in the days of the Communists, that power should be

20 shared on the basis of some kind of ethnic structure? For example, if

21 the president of the municipality is a Muslim, then the Serb would be

22 President of the Executive Board, and there would also be that kind of

23 sharing of high offices in the police, and this continued after 1990, as

24 well; right?

25 A. That's right. In the League of Communists before the war, ethnic

Page 24368

1 affiliation was taken into account. If a particular office was held by a

2 Serb, by way of an analogy, a Muslim would hold another office. Those

3 were the posts that were filled that way.

4 The same went for company managers, half/half. Half were

5 Muslims, half why Serbs, but this was taken into account, ethnic

6 affiliation. And that continued after the multi-party elections, after

7 these two parties won the election.

8 Q. Thank you. Both Serbs and Muslims had the chance of voting for

9 other parties too. For example, Serbs were in some other political

10 parties as well, just as the Muslims were, whereas the Muslims had a

11 purely Muslim Bosniak organisation. So that was not the only option,

12 right?

13 A. No, it wasn't.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other

15 microphones be switched off. Thank you.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] However, more or less, people voted

17 in accordance with their ethnic affiliation.

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Thank you. Can we say that for a considerable amount of time

20 Bratunac functioned well? Well, I don't mean you, the opposition. But

21 in terms of ethnic harmony, for a while everything seemed to be fine.

22 A. Well, if we can put it that way, at first there was love between

23 these two parties, but later on when the slope became slippery, if I can

24 put it that way, there was no love left.

25 Q. Thank you. Can we agree that tensions rose sometime in the

Page 24369

1 summer of 1991 when Slovenia and Croatia declared independence? And

2 before that, as for that declaration of independence in the Assembly of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina there were further tensions.

4 A. That's right. As tensions went up in Slovenia and Croatia, this

5 was reflected in a major way in the security situation in

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bratunac included.

7 Q. Thank you. The Muslim Bosniak organisation of Adil Zulfikarpasic

8 and Muhamed Filipovic did not make it into municipal parliament or did

9 they with a couple of delegates?

10 A. I believe they didn't. I think it was only the SDA and the SDS

11 who actually won seats.

12 Q. Thank you. Do you recall that in the summer of 1991,

13 Zulfikarpasic and Muhamed Filipovic proposed an historic Serbian --

14 Serb-Muslim agreement whereby Bosnia would remain in Yugoslavia as an

15 equal republic but that they should move away from any concept of

16 regionalisation in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

17 A. Yes, I do recall that. That was the option for Yugoslavia as

18 well, and the late Izetbegovic was offered to be the first president of

19 such a new Yugoslavia.

20 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that the first crisis followed by

21 unrest erupted sometime in late August, early September, when the JNA

22 wanted to remove their records in order to be able to send call-ups for

23 mobilisation?

24 A. That's correct. That was sometime in late summer or early fall,

25 if I recall that correctly, when the -- when members of the army came

Page 24370

1 from Tuzla to take over the records from the Ministry of Defence in

2 Bratunac. At that time, there was unrest in the town. The Muslims did

3 not want this to happen, and at least 10.000 people gathered in the town

4 itself, and the atmosphere was very tense. However, there was no spark,

5 to put it that way, but the records were not removed from Bratunac at the

6 time, the military records. They remained there.

7 Q. Thank you. Do we agree that that was, in fact, the crucial point

8 where the Muslims and the Serbs parted their ways, because the Serbs were

9 in favour of Yugoslavia and the federal army, whereas the Muslims already

10 in late summer of that year by this action demonstrated that they were

11 not willing to side with the JNA and that they were going to oppose the

12 Yugoslavia as it was?

13 A. I believe that the concord between these two parties in fact

14 broke down at that point in time for good. The Muslim people, for the

15 most part, ceased responding to the call-up, mobilisation call-up, for

16 the JNA. Some people still did. Some Muslims still did respond, but

17 those families who sent their sons to the JNA were under pressure, and

18 they were harassed by their neighbourhoods so that there were occasions

19 where people returned from the army, and when the war broke out, the JNA

20 ended up having very few Muslims in its ranks.

21 Q. Thank you. The harassing that you mention, the harassing of the

22 families of the people who responded to the call-ups, they were being

23 harassed by Muslim extremists; correct?

24 A. Yes. These were loyal citizens, loyal citizens of the former

25 Yugoslavia and loyal to its army, and these people were harassed and

Page 24371

1 maltreated by these extremists. And in the end many of them actually

2 succumbed to this pressure in fear for their own safety and the safety of

3 their children once they returned from the army, and, in fact, they

4 pulled them out, in many cases, of the army.

5 Q. Thank you. On the other hand, no one interfered with the

6 families whose children went to Croatia to be clandestinely trained for

7 the police or those who joined the ranks of the National Guards Corps,

8 the ZNG, in Croatia.

9 A. Well, there were people who went to Croatia. They were referred

10 to as the Zengas. They went there for training, but what their numbers

11 were, I don't know, but I do know that there were individuals who went to

12 Croatia for training, and they were called Zengas, members of the ZNG.

13 Q. Thank you. Does the Zenga actually mean, colloquially speaking,

14 a member of the National Guards Corps in Croatia?

15 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I don't really know the correct

16 definition, but at the time, to us, that name seemed to be - well, how

17 should I put it? - almost equal to the term "Ustasha." For Serbs, it was

18 a very threatening term. I don't know how to put this right, but

19 something to that effect.

20 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that some of your colleague citizens

21 who were in Croatian ranks committed some crimes and rapes, and that the

22 victims of those crimes then surfaced in paramilitary forces at the

23 beginning?

24 A. Well, I recall the date, the 17th of April. This was the day

25 when paramilitary groups appeared in Bratunac for the first time. Now,

Page 24372

1 who they were or what they were, I did not know at the time. All I knew

2 was they had come from Serbia, and once they arrived in Bratunac, the

3 harassment and mistreatment and torture of the Muslim population began.

4 There was some 15 men or so, and I recall this day -- can I go

5 into detail? Can I explain this further?

6 Q. Yes, please go on.

7 A. Well, that morning I left off for downtown Bratunac, around 8.00

8 in the morning. My house was on the outskirts. And on my way to the

9 centre of town, I stopped by a greengrocer's which had been blown up the

10 night before, and this greengrocer's was the property of an Albanian who

11 had lived in Bratunac for many years. I knew the man, and I bought my

12 vegetables and fruit in his green -- in his grocery store. So I stopped

13 by him to exchange a few words and asked him what had happened.

14 At that point a woman appeared. Her name was Sida, and she came

15 crying towards us. And I asked her, What's the matter, Sida? Why are

16 you crying? And she said, Oh, Buco - and that's my nickname. That's

17 what everyone called me there - Buco, Bratunac is full of Chetniks, she

18 says. What Chetniks? What are you saying. And then she says, Well, you

19 don't know you've just coming from home, but when you get there, you'll

20 see.

21 And then I headed for the centre of town, that was some

22 200 metres further. When I arrived outside the department store, there

23 was a group of people. A lot of people were gathered there, most of them

24 Muslim, and then on the other side of the road was Hotel Fontana. And

25 there, I saw some 15 uniformed men with automatic rifles. They were

Page 24373

1 spread out on the terrace over 40 metres or so. That's how long the

2 terrace was.

3 In front of the department store I noticed Miroslav Deronjic, and

4 then I asked him, Miroslav, who are those men? And he said, I don't

5 know. Literally, that's what he said. He said, I don't know. Fuck it -

6 my apologies for using this terminology, but I'm just quoting - when did

7 they get here? I have no idea, just like you don't.

8 Then, at the end, next to these uniformed men I see a man from

9 Bratunac who joined them, and I said, Miroslav, please go and tell that

10 man to remove himself. What is he going with them? And then he went and

11 addressed this man. I suppose he told him, Just get lost. What are you

12 doing there?

13 And so I remember this. This was that first scene when

14 volunteers appeared in Bratunac and when the fear and feeling of

15 insecurity among the Muslims began and then increased, and then -- they

16 were increasingly -- began moving out of Bratunac.

17 Q. Thank you. Is it correct to say that this whole complex of

18 events was fanned by the existence of Muslim extremists who were, as you

19 told us, not in the town itself but in the surrounding villages?

20 A. Well, there were no Muslim extremists in the town itself. I

21 mean, the citizens of Bratunac itself, both Serb and Muslims, were loyal

22 to one another. I think that it was the people from the rural areas,

23 from the villages, the surrounding villages, Serbs or Muslims. I think

24 that had they not come to Bratunac, war would never have broken out in

25 Bratunac.

Page 24374

1 What I'm trying to say is there were no extremists on either side

2 in the town itself, and if there were some, that was negligible. It was

3 very -- it would have been very easy to deal with them.

4 Q. Thank you. However, is it correct that the villages, both Muslim

5 and Serbs, were rather close to each other and that they were more or

6 less purely defined as -- by ethnicity; correct?

7 A. Well, yes, that's correct. The villages are close to one

8 another, but they were ethnically clearly defined. They were not mixed

9 villages. It was either a Serb village or a Muslim village. The mixing

10 of ethnicities existed in the town self.

11 Q. Thank you. Hranca as a Muslim concentration, was it very close,

12 on the very outskirts of Bratunac, and then right next to Hranca was

13 Glogovac with some 2.000 Muslim inhabitants and maybe two households of

14 Serbs.

15 A. That's correct. Glogova was ethnically pure, as was Hranca, and

16 Glogova was a big Muslim village. They probably numbered some 2.000

17 inhabitants.

18 Q. Thank you. You were not a member of the local government at the

19 time. Is it true that Deronjic was not a member of the local government

20 either at the time?

21 A. That's -- well, I was not a member of the local government. I

22 was busy with the local adult education centre. That's where I worked.

23 And Deronjic was just the president of the local SDS. He did have a

24 function, but that was at the regional level, not in the town itself.

25 But he was not a member of the local government.

Page 24375

1 Q. Thank you. So let's just go back to Deronjic. Was he a very

2 prominent person, a professor, and for many years in opposition to the

3 Communist regime, or, rather, a dissident?

4 A. That's correct. Deronjic was a high-school teacher, a teacher of

5 literature, and he was well known before the war as a person in

6 opposition to the League of Communists.

7 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that his reputation was based on his

8 own conduct in Bratunac and that it was not something that was imposed by

9 anyone from any side or outside of there, but, rather, it was his own

10 actions?

11 A. Well, he became a prominent member, or he came to the fore of the

12 SDS by popular support. His father was well known as an

13 Orthodox Communist, and even his mother was a Communist.

14 Now, Deronjic was a next door neighbour, and I remember how

15 surprised I was one morning when my father, I saw him getting dressed,

16 getting ready to go out, so I asked him, Where are you going? He said,

17 I'm going to Miroslav's Slava, a patron saint's day. I said, What's

18 Slava? I mean, he doesn't -- you know, they don't celebrate that well.

19 They began celebrating that now. When his father died, his mother --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: When his mother

21 died.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She was buried without a priest,

23 and there was just a star on his -- on her grave, but then a few days

24 later Miroslav went there and removed that far. This is -- and he

25 brought a priest there in order to have a funeral, a proper funeral

Page 24376

1 service.

2 So what I'm trying to say is that he was a prominent opponent of

3 the League of Communists, and that started before the war.

4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Thank you. Just on an aside, a question for you: Do you agree

6 that these were the most crucial divisions that divided the Serb people?

7 They were either Chetniks or Communists, and they -- in that sense, there

8 were far more internecine conflicts than -- within the ethnicity, Serbs

9 amongst themselves, rather than against other ethnicities?

10 A. Well, we were a small community. We knew each other. We knew

11 who belonged to what party, more or less. And I can tell you, for

12 instance, that I was in trouble at the beginning of the war because I

13 remained in the League of Communists. I did not choose to join the SDS.

14 I wasn't under specific pressure from anyone, but people did hold it

15 against me.

16 Q. Thank you. Probably what you're referring to is you went -- I

17 mean, that was how you were treated by some extremists but not by the

18 authorities.

19 A. That's correct, not by authorities.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, please tell us, in view of the civilised conduct

21 and mutual relationships between the Muslims and Serbs in Bratunac, can

22 you tell us whether negotiations were underway, successful, to establish

23 two municipalities in Bratunac, and is -- was that, in fact, the -- the

24 main concern and the main substance of the political developments at the

25 time?

Page 24377

1 A. Well, that's what happened. Now, Deronjic was a next door

2 neighbour, and I had frequent occasion to talk about this with him. He

3 kept telling me that it was possible to have both a Serb and a

4 municipal -- and a Muslim municipality in Bratunac. I did not believe

5 that. I told him, Miroslav, I don't think that's possible. He kept

6 insisting and tried to convince me that it was possible, but in the end

7 that's indeed what happened.

8 First, they divided the police so that the Muslim police remained

9 in the then police building. The Serbs established their own police

10 station on the premises of an elementary school, but that did not last

11 long.

12 Q. Thank you. Am I right if I say that part of the town itself in

13 some Serb villages were the Serb municipality, and part of the town and

14 Muslim villages were the Muslim municipality, and that the Serb police

15 would not go after criminals in Muslim villages and vice versa? Was that

16 the idea, actually?

17 A. Well, yes, that was the idea, because the very fact that the

18 villages are rather pure ethnically. Perhaps the town itself was a bit

19 more of a problem. But the Muslim police would do its work in Muslim

20 villages, and the Serb police would do their work in Serb villages, and

21 there would be schools for Muslims and Serbs separately. Then also the

22 health centre would be divided. There would be part of the health centre

23 that would treat Serb patients, and another part would treat Muslim

24 patients. Then the government would be divided, companies would be

25 divided up. Some would belong to the Muslims, others would belong to the

Page 24378

1 Serbs.

2 Well, as I've told you, I did not find that very clear. I was

3 quite skeptical about that and about the possibility of that kind of

4 thing functioning, but anyway, that was a political decision made at the

5 time, and we can see what that brought about.

6 Q. Thank you. Am I right if I say that the city infrastructure, the

7 public utilities, the waterworks, electricity and so on, that would

8 remain as joint companies, and things that could be done at municipal

9 level would be done at municipal level, whereas the town, the city

10 itself, would be one?

11 A. Well, you cannot really build your own waterworks that quickly.

12 You cannot really have a Muslim waterworks and the Serb waterworks,

13 electricity, too. Now, whether that would happen in the future or not,

14 only time could tell. But that did not happen. However, it is certain

15 that at least in the beginning, the infrastructure would be shared,

16 water, electricity, et cetera.

17 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that the Serb side was a bit more in

18 favour of this idea than the Muslim side but that the Muslim side did

19 accept that too?

20 A. Now -- well, who advocated this to a greater degree? Well, it is

21 possible that it was the Serb side. A bit more.

22 Q. Do we agree that what the Serbs advocated was remaining in

23 Yugoslavia, however, when that proved to be impossible, then this turned

24 out to be their choice?

25 A. Yes.

Page 24379

1 Q. Now, I would like to ask you the following: Had Bosnia been

2 reorganised that were -- let's just take the example of Bratunac. Had

3 Bratunac been reorganised this way, would this plan, based on the

4 existence of two municipalities, would that mean that Muslims would be

5 expelled, cleansed from Bratunac, or would they get the same that the

6 Serbs and all the rest would get there?

7 A. Well, it is certain that that plan did not mean any kind of

8 ethnic cleansing on either side. It was in favour of co-existence. How

9 do I call it? Well, yes.

10 Q. Co-existence. Yes. Yes. I was wondering how it was

11 interpreted. Yes, well put. Yes. Co-existing. One municipality by the

12 other one.

13 A. Well, yes. No one would prevent the population from mingling.

14 In companies, Serbs and Muslims would go on working together side by

15 side. And then in government, I don't know. Well, it's not that -- I

16 mean, there would be communication. Nobody could stop communication. I

17 mean, it couldn't have been stopped even during the war let alone in

18 peace and given that kind of co-existence.

19 Q. Thank you. Tell me, at that point in time, did you ever notice

20 in institutions or among prominent individuals any kind of wish to have

21 Muslims expelled or, heaven forbid, killed?

22 A. I told you, no one ever advocated that, and people did not leave

23 Bratunac before the 17th of April, until these paramilitaries appeared

24 and until conflicts started in the neighbouring municipalities. First in

25 the municipality of Bijeljina, and then a number of people started

Page 24380

1 leaving, and then the conflict in Zvornik, and then a bit more people, I

2 mean the Muslim population, started leaving. And then finally when the

3 paramilitaries arrived, then even more Muslim people started leaving

4 Bratunac.

5 Q. Thank you. At that point in time were there cases of Serb

6 families leaving Bratunac even before the conflict broke out?

7 A. Well, yes. Everyone seemed to feel that things were not moving

8 in the right direction. So even Serbs who had some place to go, say in

9 Serbia, to send their children there, that's what they did, because it

10 was obvious that things were not moving in the right direction. So quite

11 a few Serb women and children left Bratunac too.

12 Q. As the conflict was getting closer to Bratunac, it was less

13 because of what was happening in Bratunac itself and more because of

14 everything that was happening throughout Bosnia; right?

15 A. Yes. I've already mentioned Bijeljina, and even more than that,

16 other places that are close to Bratunac.

17 Q. Thank you. However, in Bratunac itself, I mean not in the town

18 itself but in the villages, in the municipalities, there were extremists

19 on both sides; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you know anything about the military organisation of the SDA,

22 not to say the Muslims, because not all the Muslims were part of the SDA,

23 so the military organisation of the SDA, of the Patriotic League, and the

24 Green Berets?

25 A. Well, yes. People did talk. Green Berets were being organised

Page 24381

1 in the villages, this Patriotic League. Also, there was guard duty along

2 roads, in front of houses, et cetera. Then it started on the other side

3 too. Serbs guarded their own houses. Muslims guarded their own houses.

4 Q. Thank you. At one point in time, even in town, in front of

5 apartment buildings there were mixed guards sometimes as well; right?

6 A. Well, yes. Attempts were made to that effect where both Serbs

7 and Muslims lived to have these joint guards, and perhaps in some

8 residential areas where there were privately owned houses, but that

9 happened to a lesser degree. In most cases it was Serbs who were

10 guarding their own and Muslims who were guarding their own.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, was it correct that Glogova was well known as,

12 not to call it a stronghold, but a location, a place where there were

13 quite a few extremists, and it was being said that there were lists of

14 Serbs that were supposed to be liquidated and that plans were made

15 because of that.

16 A. Well, let me tell you, there were all sorts of rumours that were

17 heard. That's what the Serbs heard, and I assume that the Muslims heard

18 rumours that were the opposite, and I think that this was mutual

19 intimidation. But there were rumours to that effect, yes.

20 Q. Thank you. In the Muslim documentation that we are going to deal

21 with later, we'll tender that through another witness, there is something

22 that I'd like to ask you about. Did you hear about March and Potocari,

23 that JNA reservists were attacked and the JNA as such?

24 A. I cannot remember the dates, but it is certain that people

25 talked. There was an incident in this village and in that village, and

Page 24382

1 there was an incident on the road here and there. There were these

2 incidents in the spring months of 1992.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. And the beginning.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, I would just like to enumerate the things that

6 happened, the incidents that occurred before the 17th of April so that we

7 can see what preceded the arrival of these paramilitaries. So here it

8 goes:

9 On the 21st of March in Potocari, three attacks; on the

10 24th of March, an attack against Buljim; on the 25th of March, incidents

11 in Orahovac, Bukova Glava, at the expulsion of Chetniks, they say, from

12 Bukova Glava; then, on the 25th of March also Bukova Glava, the expulsion

13 of Chetniks; on the 25th of March sabotage in Zeleni Jadar, about ten

14 Chetniks were killed.

15 Have you heard of any of this? I beg your pardon. I really

16 should slow down.

17 There was this sabotage in Zeleni Jadar when ten Chetniks were

18 killed, they say. Were these the workers at the mine in Zeleni Jadar?

19 A. They worked for the forestry industry there. There is a

20 furniture factory there, and there are people who work in the forest

21 itself.

22 Q. And then in Nova Kasaba, this --

23 JUDGE KWON: Please take a look at the previous question and

24 answer. You read out all these -- I wonder whether that's a statement of

25 yours or a question. You read out various places and asked a simple

Page 24383

1 question in relation to the last place. Then the witness answered only

2 in relation to Zeleni Jadar.

3 What purpose would it serve at all? And I'm struggling to

4 understand all these, but make -- ask one question at a time.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency. I wanted to

6 summarise this and to hear the witness and to see what he did hear of and

7 what he did not hear of, but I seem to be spending more time this way,

8 and I do apologise for that.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Did you hear about what happened at the JNA warehouse in

11 Nova Kasaba?

12 A. All of these things that you mentioned, it's only Bukova Glava

13 that is in the territory of the municipality of Bratunac.

14 As for some of these things, I did hear about it because it is

15 nearby, after all. The municipality of Srebrenica is very close to us.

16 However, now for me to say with any certainty I did hear this and I

17 didn't hear that, well --

18 Q. Ah-ha. What about Konjevic Polje, is that in Bratunac?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you remember on the 15th of April they launched some kind of

21 attack and there were no Serbs left in Konjevic Polje?

22 A. There weren't any Serbs in Konjevic Polje anyway. However, there

23 was this road going through Konjevic Polje. The Milici-Zvornik road went

24 through Konjevic Polje, and I think it's on this road they stopped Serbs

25 and there were these incidents where the Serbs were victims.

Page 24384

1 Q. Thank you do you remember that they attacked a convoy of trucks

2 transporting ore from a mine and that they killed and took prisoner --

3 took some people prisoner?

4 A. They were taking alumina to Zvornik and there was this incident.

5 And I think that the driver was killed, in actual fact.

6 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us something about Judge Goran Zekic,

7 who he was, and is it correct that he was killed on the 8th of May in

8 some ambush?

9 A. Goran Zekic had a degree in law. He was a judge in the

10 Municipal Court in Srebrenica. He was the president of the

11 Serb Democratic Party for Srebrenica, and he was a member of parliament.

12 On the 8th of May, he was killed in an ambush.

13 Q. Thank you. He was a member of the joint Assembly, wasn't he?

14 A. Yes, the joint Assembly.

15 Q. How did this affect the general feeling in Bratunac?

16 A. Well, along with Miroslav Deronjic, he was the most important

17 person in the area. What Miroslav was in Bratunac, Zekic was in

18 Srebrenica. And it's nearby. It's 10 kilometres away. So these two

19 were the two most important Serbs in the area, and the connotation was

20 highly negative as far as the Serbs were concerned, both in Srebrenica

21 and in Bratunac.

22 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that on the 9th of May, a day later,

23 there was an attempt to disarm the people of Glogova and that this was

24 carried out by the JNA, part of the Novi Sad Corps, the

25 Territorial Defence, and the police?

Page 24385

1 A. I think that this was a response to Goran's killing, this

2 operation of disarming Glogova on the 9th of May.

3 Q. Thank you. You do remember, don't you, that on the 3rd or 4th of

4 May, in Hranca at the entrance into Bratunac, a JNA column was attacked?

5 They were returning to Serbia to Central Bosnia.

6 A. Yes. The JNA was leaving Central Bosnia and other parts of

7 Bosnia, going to Serbia, so they went via Bratunac, and that's where the

8 column was attacked.

9 Q. Thank you. So there were certain incidents, some before the

10 17th of April and others after the 17th of April. And the culmination

11 was, isn't that right, on the 8th and 9th of May?

12 A. Yes. The killing of Goran Zekic and the disarming of Glogova.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, just briefly, these paramilitaries, at first did

14 they introduce themselves as reservists, and then did some of them turn

15 into renegades? And after that, were some of them placed under the

16 command of the Serb army, and were others expelled? Can you tell us

17 briefly what happened.

18 A. No one thought that they were part of the army, no one. Let me

19 deal with this very briefly.

20 These were people who came from Serbia, who had been at the front

21 in Croatia and -- I don't know.

22 Now, what did they look like to us? They wanted to loot. I mean

23 there's one thing I haven't said. Among these volunteers, there were

24 these two women as well. One was called Dragana, and allegedly some

25 Muslims who were training there with the ZNGs had raped them, and it was

Page 24386

1 said that they had come there to take their revenge, and people said that

2 they had found those two men who had done that. However, none of those

3 volunteers got out of Bratunac alive. All of them were killed. They

4 paid with their own lives.

5 Q. Thank you. So at least two of those killed Muslims were the

6 victims of revenge for the rapes they committed in Croatia while in

7 training there with the ZNG; correct?

8 A. That's what the story was. We thought it was a normal thing to

9 see men there, but we were surprised to see two women as paramilitaries,

10 and then people said that the reason why they joined the paramilitary

11 formations was that they came to find those who had raped them in

12 Croatia.

13 Q. Thank you. We heard here from some Muslim witnesses that the

14 local Serbs, prominent men and people from the government, told the

15 Muslims to lie low and to stay at home and be patient until the

16 authorities were able to get rid of the paramilitary formations. Do you

17 have any personal knowledge as to that question?

18 A. Well, you see, those paramilitary formations did not make me feel

19 safe either. I was afraid too. I did not suggest to the Muslims to take

20 shelter, although it seemed to have been the right thing to do. I say

21 that, because whoever tried to help anyone else with the best of

22 intentions, it seemed like shooting yourself in the foot, because it

23 turned out to be a good thing for either the Muslims or yourself. Such

24 was the situation. No one could help anyone else. Perhaps they could,

25 but at the risk of their own lives.

Page 24387

1 Q. Can you explain the situation -- the situations you experienced

2 which would clearly indicate that both Serbs and Muslims feared such

3 groups? Did you have any such incidents where you tried to save some

4 Muslims?

5 A. I wanted to help a good friend of mine, a co-worker by the name

6 of Resid Sinanovic. I tried to help him by asking Miroslav Deronjic, on

7 Resid's request, to provide passes for Resid and his family since they

8 wanted to leave Bratunac and join his brother in Skopje, who was a JNA

9 captain. He told him that the situation to him did not look like

10 something that would get any better and wanted to get away.

11 It was on the 5th of May. I remember it, because my

12 saint patron's day was on the 6th.

13 I tried to explain it to Miroslav. The next day, in the morning,

14 Miroslav provided me with four clean passes, and he said, You fill them

15 out. I went to Resid's apartment, and there was his wife, his two sons,

16 and he. We filled in the clean passes, we bid farewell, and he told me

17 he was supposed to go to Bjelovac where his parents lived. It was around

18 12.00 on the 6th. He was going to decide whether to continue immediately

19 or to leave for Skopje the next day. He didn't have a very reliable car

20 at the time. He had a Fico, F-i-c-o. So he decided in the end to leave

21 in the morning, on the 7th.

22 Later on, he retold his story for me. He crossed a bridge at

23 Ljubovija, some 3 kilometres from Bratunac across the Drina. He entered

24 Serbia in Ljubovija next to a motel which is 3 kilometres from the

25 bridge. The Ljubovija police awaited him, stopped him and returned him

Page 24388

1 to Bratunac. They took him back across the bridge.

2 And from Bratunac, he went to Bjelovac, and then across the hills

3 he took his wife and kids to safety, to Zenica.

4 Q. In other words, Deronjic's passes did not amount to much across

5 the river.

6 A. No, not in Serbia, although I don't know why. Our police did let

7 him pass through across the bridge with the passes he had though. The

8 policeman knew him, too. He had been a chief of police in a pre-war

9 period. So our policeman let him go, but the Ljubovija policeman made

10 him go back.

11 Q. Thank you. You also had some experience with your family and

12 relatives. They, too, tried to help some others.

13 A. Well, we had all lived there for years. We are neighbours, and

14 everyone was trying to help everyone else. However, there were many

15 cases when people tried to help and yet it would have been better that

16 they had not, because later on those who were helped were killed.

17 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that by that time the rumour had it

18 that each Muslim had a Serb to kill, whereas you, in the town itself,

19 were trying to help each other?

20 A. Well, there were lots of stories going around, all sorts of

21 things on both sides.

22 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that at the time, in May, the Muslims

23 around Bratunac -- not in Bratunac itself but surrounding Bratunac, put

24 up barricades which resulted in Bratunac being completely cut off from

25 the rest of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Republika Srpska?

Page 24389

1 A. The Muslims had left Bratunac. As for the roads, Bratunac could

2 only communicate with Serbia, because in the direction of Konjevic Polje

3 there were Muslims. There was a Muslim village there along the road. So

4 for a while, Bratunac only had one road open to Serbia.

5 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that in early May you received some

6 5.000 Serbs who had fled Srebrenica and that by that time the Serbs from

7 Zenica and Central Bosnia began arriving too?

8 A. Yes. Bratunac took in all the Srebrenica Serbs. I think some

9 5.000 of them arrived from the municipality of Srebrenica. At the same

10 time, Serbs from some Central Bosnia municipalities arrived, as well as

11 some people from Zenica, et cetera.

12 Bratunac must have taken in some 6- to 7.000 refugees at the

13 time.

14 Q. Thank you. Before that, on the 1st or 2nd of May,

15 Gojko Stjepanovic was killed in Bljeceva. And on the 8th of May, Zekic

16 was killed. It became obvious that it would be very difficult to avoid

17 having a war.

18 A. The first victim on the Serb side was Gojko Jovanovic from

19 Bljeceva as well as Milo Zekic and his wife. They were the first

20 victims, and it all took place around the 1st or 2nd of May. They were

21 the Serb -- first Serb victims in 1992.

22 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that at the time the municipal

23 authorities had no power whatsoever to deal with the paramilitary

24 formations and that the paramilitaries even slapped prominent people

25 around and took some of them parading through town while they were tied

Page 24390

1 up?

2 A. Well, yes. The -- I tried to explain that the paramilitary

3 formation was as much of a problem for the Muslims as it was for the

4 Serbs, and I speak strictly from my point of view. No one could hold any

5 sway over them. They were armed. They had vehicles. They just kept

6 driving around along the roads, and we thought that they were going to

7 wage the whole war by driving around, judging by their behaviour.

8 Q. Who was the most prominent person in the police on the Serb side,

9 and was he trying to stand up to them?

10 A. The commander of the Bratunac police at the time was

11 Milutin Milosevic. In my view, as I knew him, he was the only person who

12 intended to stand up to them, but unfortunately, in Sandici village, just

13 beyond Kravica, he was killed in an ambush alongside another 11 Serbs. I

14 think he was the only person who meant to deal with the paramilitary

15 formations seriously. To his misfortune and ours, he was killed early

16 on.

17 Q. So it was an ambush in Sandici in 1992, at the very beginning,

18 where he and another 11 Serbs were killed.

19 A. Yes. I think so.

20 Q. Following the paramilitary formations -- let -- tell us first,

21 how did it come that they were killed, for the most part?

22 A. Well, they kept driving along the road between Srebrenica and

23 Bratunac. On one occasion, the Muslims set up an ambush in Potocari and

24 killed four. Then if -- as one goes on to Glogova and Kravica, they were

25 all killed in their cars.

Page 24391

1 Q. Thank you. Following that -- sorry. Before that there was this

2 Makedonac person, and then there was someone else from Montenegro.

3 A. There were different kinds of paramilitary formations. There was

4 this Bosanac person and then a Bekija and others. I no longer remember

5 who and what they were.

6 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that even Deronjic was beaten up as

7 well as other prominent Serbs?

8 A. Yes, there were. I can tell you of more prominent people from

9 Bratunac who were beaten up or mistreated by them.

10 Q. If one wanted to help a Muslim, you had to ask him not to tell

11 anyone. Otherwise, you would be hurt too; correct?

12 A. It's difficult to talk about that. You were not supposed to even

13 think or mention helping a Muslim, let alone do.

14 Q. Do you recall that Deronjic asked us and even visited us when we

15 were in Zvornik -- he was basically asking for help to deal with the

16 renegades in his municipality?

17 A. I talked to Deronjic frequently. We were next-door neighbours,

18 and I told him, Deronjic, well, you need to put a stop to this. What is

19 this paramilitary presence? His late father was saying the same thing.

20 He was trying to tell him to tackle it.

21 Some Muslims came to see his father as well. Many people knew

22 his father. Since World War II, he was the co-operative manager, and he

23 hailed from the village of Magasici, which is adjacent to the village of

24 Glogova. Many Muslims came to Miroslav's father, Milan, trying to ask

25 him to use his influence over his son to put a stop to these paramilitary

Page 24392

1 formations. It's difficult to describe these situations.

2 Those paramilitary formations were not dear to my heart, and I

3 can only imagine how the Muslims felt.

4 Q. Is it true that the they also beat up the brigade commander and

5 that Mauzer had a clash with them because they had taken one of his

6 soldiers prisoner and he turned his APCs on them?

7 A. That was the conflict with Mijovic. He was sent from Serbia. He

8 was sent from the Serbian DB, and he kept bringing in prominent Serbs,

9 beating them up. He took Obrenovic in, who at the time must have been

10 over 50. He beat him up. Then there was Dragan Trisic, who was later on

11 assistant commander for logistics. He refused to provide him with fuel,

12 and then he beat him up. And then Pavle Loncarevic, who was a company

13 director, was also beaten up. Then Zoran Radic and many other prominent

14 men. They were all beaten up by Mijovic and his paramilitary soldiers.

15 Q. One other question before the break. Is it correct that the

16 local authorities were sealing off the apartments left by Muslims so that

17 they be preserved until they returned and then you received the 7- or

18 8.000 refugees?

19 A. Yes, that was the attempt they made at the outset, but when this

20 stampede of Srebrenica refugees came upon us, things were no longer under

21 control. People went into empty Muslim houses on their own.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I am looking at the

23 clocks, Your Excellencies. Can I keep on, or are we going on a break so

24 that I can move on to the next topic when we return?

25 JUDGE KWON: We are going to have a break and resume at 11.00.

Page 24393

1 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Harvey.

4 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, if I may, please, introduce to the

5 court Ms. Tatiana - I knew I'd get this wrong - Jancarkova, who has been

6 a pro bono legal assistant with my team for many months but who we will

7 sadly be losing soon. She has been a terrific assistance because of her

8 B/C/S expertise, in particular, and her legal acumen. Thank you.

9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

10 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Davidovic, I will now try to get to the events of 1995 as

14 soon as possible, so I will try to formulate the remaining questions from

15 the other period in such a way that you can answer with just a yes or no,

16 but whenever you feel you need to expand upon that, please feel free to

17 do so.

18 Is it true that in early April, before the arrival of these

19 warriors in their cars from Serbia and Croatia, the Green Berets also

20 displayed their presence in the street and checked vehicles and -- and

21 passengers?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So that was yes.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that Glogova had about 2.000

Page 24394

1 inhabitants and that after this disarming operation between 50 to 60

2 people were killed, but you don't know how that happened.

3 A. I know that 60 people were killed, but I don't know the details.

4 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that in December 1992, in a village

5 called Bjelovac, which was predominantly Serb, 109 Serb civilians were

6 killed?

7 A. Yes, in a single day.

8 Q. Before that, 35 people were killed near Bratunac; correct?

9 A. In that same village in Bjelovac.

10 Q. Thank you. Is it true that in our earlier political system each

11 municipality had a Territorial Defence brigade and the president of the

12 municipality was ex officio the president of the Defence council and the

13 civilian commander, as it were, of such brigade?

14 A. It is true that each municipality had its own

15 Territorial Defence. However, whether that unit was at the brigade level

16 or not, I don't know, and I don't know about the president of the

17 municipality being the commander of such a unit, but in short, they did

18 have their Territorial Defence units.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, is it true that the Territorial Defence had also

20 stored within various companies and factories arms and weapons that

21 belonged to it?

22 A. Yes, that's true. They had their own depots there including

23 weapons, equipment, and uniforms.

24 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that the president of the municipal

25 board, in other words, of the local government ex officio was the head of

Page 24395

1 the civilian protection service?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that these municipal

4 Territorial Defence units later became municipal brigades, that they kept

5 their municipal titles or names and that the municipality funded these

6 units and provided logistics for them?

7 A. Yes. I don't know when the Territorial Defence actually turned

8 into a military formation and when it was renamed to become the

9 Bratunac Brigade. And what was -- what else was it that you asked me?

10 Q. That the municipality --

11 A. Yes, logistics. Yes, the logistics for the brigade was provided

12 by and funded by the municipality, which means that they provided for

13 their food, uniforms or clothing, cigarettes and so on, depending on what

14 they could afford, depending on the economy, the local economy.

15 Q. Thank you. Am I correct when I explained to the Main Staff

16 during the war that the municipalities would actually provide more funds

17 for their own municipal units, for their own children, as it were, than

18 they would for the central Main Staff?

19 A. I believe that you were right in that.

20 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that the so-called Crisis Staffs, for

21 instance, right now during this freeze, they still exist, that these

22 Crisis Staffs were not a new body? They were just had to be organised

23 for novel conditions, and they were not a new form of government, as it

24 were?

25 A. Well, I believe that Crisis Staffs comprise the existing

Page 24396

1 officials, the president of the municipality, the defence ministry, the

2 civilian protection, and so on. So they were members of those

3 Crisis Staffs ex officio, and that's how it was at the beginning.

4 Q. Thank you. So would you agree that these Crisis Staffs were set

5 up so that procedures and dead-lines and delays would be avoided? In

6 other words, they focused on their work, and if they were members of the

7 Crisis Staff, there were no dead-lines or anything. They had to report

8 immediately.

9 A. Well, yes. They had to in order to be operational.

10 Q. Thank you. Do you agree with me that even today, there is a lot

11 of snow there right now, Crisis Staffs are still in existence and in

12 operation?

13 A. Well, yes, throughout Serbia. Well, nowadays they call them

14 staffs for -- staffs for natural disasters, but the purpose is the same.

15 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to move to 1994. In 1994, you were

16 invited as a professional, although you were a member of an opposition

17 party, you were invited to take control or to be -- to head the municipal

18 authorities.

19 A. Well, the post of president of the Executive Committee is

20 appointed by the Assembly. I actually was there as a candidate. There

21 was another candidate, and I won.

22 Q. The Assembly had a majority of SDS seats; correct?

23 A. Well, yes, probably, but not absolute -- probably an absolute

24 majority.

25 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that I, as well as other members of

Page 24397

1 the SDS during the war, insisted on confidence votes when needed, and at

2 one point in time the chief of police actually was removed from his post,

3 although he hadn't done anything wrong, but he was not successful in

4 preventing looting and things like that? So do you recall that at that

5 time the municipal government, too, was replaced? There was a reshuffle

6 there too.

7 A. Well, in the course of the war, the municipal authorities

8 performed their functions in keeping with the law. That includes the

9 president of the Executive Council, the police commander and others. And

10 of course if someone failed to perform properly or competently in their

11 position, they would be replaced.

12 Q. Thank you. Did you learn that some actions were taken around

13 Srebrenica before the operation or did you, yourself, see that some

14 soldiers appeared on the perimeters of the protected area?

15 A. Are you referring to 1995?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. Well, let me put it this way: People knew about this operation.

18 I mean, people who were in the army talked about it. They knew about it,

19 of course. And of course everyone had family members, and that's how

20 word spread. So everyone more or less knew that they would move on

21 Srebrenica in order to separate the enclaves, to cut them off.

22 Q. [No interpretation]

23 A. Well, yes, that there would be an operation in order to separate

24 the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa in order to contain them -- or,

25 rather, so that there could be more control over the enclaves, because

Page 24398

1 these enclaves were used to launch various sabotage actions by Muslims

2 against civilians, and in order to put that under control, the operation

3 was launched on Srebrenica.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 JUDGE KWON: Slow down, Mr. Karadzic. So separating the

6 enclaves, cutting them off was part of your question, not part of the

7 answer.

8 Please do not overlap or put a pause between the questions and

9 answers. Thank you.

10 THE ACCUSED: I would like this to be translated to the witness.

11 JUDGE KWON: You heard, Mr. Davidovic. Please put a pause before

12 you start answering the question, for the benefit of the interpreters.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will do my best.

14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, the witness

16 was the first to mention the separation of enclaves, and that was in the

17 last lines of page 40, and then I asked whether that was the purpose of

18 this.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Now, do you agree with me that the agreement envisaged that the

21 Zeleni Jadar-Podravanje-Skelani road between the enclaves was under this

22 agreement ours and that it was cut off because of this unlawful expansion

23 of the enclaves?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. At one point when these actions began -- or, rather,

Page 24399

1 do you agree with me that this is precisely where these actions began,

2 between the enclaves Zeleni Jadar and so on; in other words, to the south

3 of the -- Srebrenica?

4 A. Well, yes. To the north, it was Serbia and Bratunac. It was

5 territory controlled by Serbs. And on the southern side, that's where

6 the Muslim enclaves were. And this in reference to Bratunac.

7 Q. Thank you. You mentioned actions launched from Srebrenica. Did

8 you know of the existence of the 28th Division, earlier known as the

9 8th Operational Group? Did you know who their commander was, and were

10 you aware of their frequent raids or actions into the Serb territories?

11 A. Well, yes, I did know. People knew about the existence, and

12 they -- their existence, and it numbered about 7.000 men, and it was

13 under the command of Naser Oric.

14 Q. Did tragedies follow once they left the enclaves and ventured

15 into Serb villages, and who were the victims usually in those villages?

16 A. Well, they left the enclaves on several occasions to attack Serb

17 villages, and mostly in these villages it was the civilian population

18 that they attacked.

19 Q. Thank you. Do you remember any particular such action?

20 A. Well, there were a number of those, but I remember an action at

21 Christmas time on Kravica in 1993, and then there was another one in

22 Fakovici, in Skelani. All these were raids launched from the enclaves

23 where there would be anywhere between 20 and 60 victims each time. There

24 were a number of such raids on Serb villages launched from these

25 enclaves.

Page 24400

1 Q. Is it correct that they did not spare women or children or even

2 cattle? If they couldn't take it with them, they would just kill them?

3 A. Well, there were all kinds of horrors there. There was murder,

4 there was torching of houses, looting, and all the worst.

5 Q. Is it true that there is a big cemetery where these victims

6 were -- their victims were buried and that there were women and children

7 who were buried there, all these victims of Oric's units?

8 A. Well, most of the people from the Srebrenica and Bratunac

9 municipality were buried in that cemetery, because Srebrenica was

10 captured, and the largest part of the Bratunac cemetery now -- or,

11 rather, the -- the size of the Bratunac cemetery is huge, much bigger

12 than would be necessary for a town the size of Bratunac, which numbers

13 about 7.000 inhabitants.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, you were president of the local government when

15 you went to Pribicevac; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Ms. West mentioned that this was a very unpleasant encounter with

18 Mladic, who did not show much respect for the civilian authorities, and

19 he wanted you to be in the trenches.

20 A. Well, yes. He was very unpleasant, and he treated me with a lot

21 of arrogance, if I can put it that way, although I told him who I was. I

22 told him that I was the president of the Executive Committee of the

23 Bratunac municipality, but he never showed in any way that he knew of me.

24 It was only the next day that he showed that, but that's the kind of

25 person he was. He treated people like that. It wasn't just me that he

Page 24401

1 treated in this manner. He also treated his own men and people in that

2 way.

3 Q. Do you agree that that was not his personal attitude towards you?

4 That is precisely what I wanted to ask. Rather, our officers were closer

5 to parties of the left than to the SDS.

6 A. Well, I don't know whether he was irritated by that. I was not

7 even wearing a uniform at the time. I arrived there wearing civilian

8 clothes. Maybe that irritated him too. What I was doing there in

9 civilian clothes when there's a war going on.

10 Q. Thank you. However, do you assume that he thought that you were

11 a member of the SDS since you were in government? Do you agree that our

12 army was closer to the parties of the left?

13 A. Yes, yes. Now, whether he thought that I was a member of the

14 SDS, well, perhaps people found that a bit strange then. I was not part

15 of that political option, and I held a particular office. So maybe that

16 was his assumption too.

17 Q. Thank you. It was your understanding -- or, actually, did you

18 know that their army had withdrawn from Srebrenica and that our army

19 entered that town without any kind of serious resistance?

20 A. Well, there was some small resistance, but not the kind of

21 resistance that we had all expected. It was only on the following day

22 that I understood that the army had withdrawn to other places, or,

23 rather, that they were not defending Srebrenica.

24 Q. [Microphone not activated]

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

Page 24402

1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, microphone.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. In this conversation that was recorded on the

5 25th of February, 1998, and also in other statements, you said that you

6 found out -- actually, you said in this interview 15- to 16.000, and then

7 later on up to 20.000 civilians flowed into Potocari, Muslim civilians

8 arrived in Potocari; is that right?

9 A. Well, that is my rough estimate. It was hard to give any kind of

10 accurate estimate. It's masses of people at a particular place. Now,

11 was it 16.000? Was it 20.000? One thing is for sure, there were lots of

12 people there. It's certainly not an exaggerated figure. Perhaps the

13 figure I gave was even smaller than what happened in real life.

14 Q. Thank you. And you came there as a representative of the

15 municipal authorities to see whether the soldiers needed anything. This

16 had to do with what was happening in Srebrenica; right?

17 A. Well, the brigade was asking for a lot, and that was unusual.

18 Food, civilians, uniforms, boots, and so on. And I went up there to this

19 Pribicevac where there was this one battalion. It was the 3rd Battalion.

20 Their location was the most difficult of all, and I wanted to see what

21 the situation was regarding food, cigarettes, et cetera.

22 Q. So you were there in your official capacity, just as you had been

23 informed in your official capacity that there were civilians, many

24 civilians, in Potocari, and that the sick should be taken care of as

25 well. And as you said in your interview, people were milling about, and

Page 24403

1 they were supposed to be supplied with food and water.

2 Can you tell us what you did there, you the authorities?

3 A. At the meeting at the Fontana Hotel on the 12th, we were given a

4 specific task -- or, rather, when it became clear that the Muslims from

5 Srebrenica did not wish to remain in the area. It was when they

6 officially stated that they wanted to leave the area. Then

7 General Mladic said to us, You gentlemen from the civilian structures,

8 make an effort now to the best of your ability to help that civilian

9 population in Potocari in terms of logistics supplies, water supplies,

10 food supplies, health care. The meeting was almost over. Say it was

11 between 11.00 and 11.30.

12 Then I and the president of the municipality, Simic, went to the

13 municipality, and we worked out a plan as to what we should do to help

14 the population in Potocari. For that purpose, we mobilised two water

15 trucks, one from the public utilities company and the other one from the

16 fire brigade.

17 All the bread that was baked by our bakery was supposed to be

18 sent up there. In the Red Cross we found some food, some cookies, I

19 believe. All of that was supposed to be sent up there too. However, we

20 thought that all of that was not enough, so in the neighbouring

21 Republic of Serbia we asked the municipality of Ljubovija, that is

22 6 kilometres away from Bratunac, we asked for help so that they could

23 give us whatever they could afford. So they sent us bread, a water

24 truck. And then the municipality of Zvornik too.

25 President Simic was also supposed to contact the UNHCR, because

Page 24404

1 he had already had communication with them. So they were supposed to

2 take part in this action too.

3 Already two hours after the end of the meeting we were in

4 Potocari along with these supplies, and we distributed that to the people

5 up there, although up there the delegation that attended the meeting in

6 the Fontana Hotel was not there. Mandic, the president of the

7 municipality, then Ibro, and a woman named Camila, they were supposed to

8 meet us up there once we arrived with this humanitarian aid, and then

9 they were supposed to distribute it. However, they did not meet us

10 there, so we were doing this as best we could spontaneously, if I can put

11 it that way. They could have probably done this in the right kind of

12 order had they met us there. They would have known, but anyway.

13 We tried to help the population up there to the best of our

14 ability. Truth to tell, our help was not sufficient, I'm sure of that,

15 but we tried to send even more than we could actually afford, but that

16 certainly was not sufficient, because there were lots of people up there.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to ask you to specify something.

18 I'd like to see whether I understood you correctly. Did you know that on

19 the evening of the 11th there were two meeting at the Fontana Hotel, but

20 you did not attend them; right?

21 A. That's right. That's correct. It was only at this meeting on

22 the 12th at 10.00 I realised that that meeting had been preceded by

23 another meeting which was attended only by Nesib Mandic, the president of

24 the municipality. That was on the 11th, in the evening, I think. I

25 don't know. And then he could not say what it was that the people

Page 24405

1 wanted, but he agreed, probably with General Mladic, that he would go to

2 Srebrenica and that he would come on the following day with the definite

3 view as to what it was that they wanted. That was my understanding at

4 the meeting, that this was their final position, that they wanted to

5 leave the area of Srebrenica.

6 Q. Thank you. Let me try to work this out now. There was one

7 meeting with Karremans. There was the second meeting with Karremans and

8 the Muslims on the 11th. Up until then, people did not know whether the

9 civilians would return home or whether they would stand by the decision

10 to leave the area, and that was defined at the meeting that you attended

11 on the 12th at 10.00 in Fontana; right?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. Am I right if I say that up until then it was uncertain whether

14 they would leave, and until then buses had not been mobilised, and no one

15 realised that they would leave for sure.

16 A. I did not know that that would happen.

17 Q. Thank you. So you were there personally in Potocari when this

18 food was being distributed; right?

19 A. Well, in this first convoy that we brought, the water truck, the

20 bread, et cetera.

21 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us who was present at the meeting on the

22 12th?

23 A. At the hotel. That meeting was attended by General Mladic,

24 General Krstic, the commander of the Dutch Battalion, his deputy, the

25 interpreter, the delegation of the Muslims consisting of Nesib Mandic,

Page 24406

1 the President of the municipality, and Ibro Nuhanovic [Realtime

2 transcript read in error "Pavlovic"] and Camila from the civilian

3 authorities of Bratunac. There was Ljubisav Simic, the president of the

4 Municipal Assembly; Miroslav Deronjic; and I. The chief of the security

5 centre from Zvornik, Vasic, was present there as well, and there was an

6 officer. I think he was a colonel of the Army of Republika Srpska. That

7 were the attendees at that meeting.

8 Q. Thank you. What was Mladic's position? I believe that he was

9 the only one who spoke. What was Mladic's position? Were the Muslims

10 expected to express their views or was something imposed on them?

11 A. The meeting was chaired by General Mladic, and he asked, What is

12 your decision? His offer to them was that they could stay if they so

13 wished in the areas where they had lived until then, along with all

14 guarantees of freedom of movement as enjoyed by the rest of the

15 population, the non-Muslims. However, the Muslims would have to hand

16 over their weapons while those who had bloodied their hands would be

17 prosecuted. So all the others could live there safely, enjoying the same

18 rights like the rest of the population, the non-Muslim population. They

19 were very set in their determination to leave the area.

20 Q. Thank you. As for those first departures in 1992, there was

21 practically 100 per cent certainty that this was temporary and that they

22 would -- they would come back. Was there the possibility of them coming

23 back some day in this case, and did some of them eventually return?

24 A. At the meeting itself that was not discussed. However, now the

25 situation is as follows: Whoever wanted to return, did return.

Page 24407

1 Everybody had their property returned 100 per cent. A lot of houses were

2 repaired and so on. However, on the 12th at that meeting, that was not

3 discussed, whether it was temporary or permanent. If they wanted to

4 leave, they could leave, and there was no mention of whether it was

5 temporary or permanent.

6 Q. Thank you. When you were in Potocari, did you see a film that

7 shows that day in Potocari, the 12th of July? Did you see a film? Does

8 that film faithfully represent what you saw, that there was no pressure

9 there, no strictness? As you said, people were milling about, and

10 everybody as trying to find a solution for themselves.

11 A. I spent about two hours there. While I was there, I did not see

12 anyone harassing anyone else, beating anyone else, abusing, mistreating

13 anyone else.

14 I said that there were masses of people there. There were also

15 the members of the Dutch Battalion. When we arrived, the Dutch soldiers

16 were lined up. Say it was a line 40 or 50 metres long. And in this way

17 they had cordoned off the people from Srebrenica from the road where the

18 army and police of Republika Srpska were moving, as were others.

19 My understanding was that the role of the soldiers from the

20 Dutch Battalion was to prevent anyone from going to the place where the

21 people were and to prevent people from getting out onto the road.

22 Now -- actually, it's hard for you to imagine what it was like in

23 Potocari. People were milling about there, and there's this river there,

24 but no one could get there from the road.

25 Q. You said milling about, and -- let me help the interpreters. And

Page 24408

1 it's not even Pavlovic, it is Ibro Nuhanovic; right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. Was there any strictness there? Were people just

4 walking around? Did you see that film?

5 A. I saw lots of films. They're shown on TV now as well.

6 Q. Is it correct that it wasn't -- that people were treated

7 strictly, but they were milling about, as you said very picturesquely?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You recognised some people?

10 A. Or they recognised me, to put it better.

11 Q. So they called out to you and you spoke to them?

12 A. Yes. I spoke with some of them.

13 Q. However, there was this real possibility that someone took --

14 take a personal revenge for the things that had taken place in the three

15 years up to that point?

16 A. Well, in Potocari there were different soldiers there, but I

17 didn't see any Bratunac Brigade members. I simply didn't know the

18 soldiers who were there. And as for the Bratunac Brigade, I know them.

19 The soldiers that were there were people I didn't know. I don't know

20 whether it was a unit from Zvornik or Vlasenica or Milici or some other,

21 perhaps, police unit. In any case, I didn't know the soldiers.

22 There wasn't much possibility of people taking revenge. I also

23 told you there were DutchBat soldiers there as well. And I didn't see

24 anyone trying to mistreat anyone or take revenge.

25 Q. Thank you. But the area was probably cordoned off -- well, we

Page 24409

1 can see that the people were mingling there and milling about.

2 A. Well, they were supposed to take the people to a larger area

3 where everyone could stay, and then people simply dispersed up to a

4 kilometre away.

5 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that as the people came in, you tried

6 to keep some order, and you said today that you tried to make an

7 arrangement with the Muslim authorities to wait for you there and help in

8 organising.

9 A. Well, yes. They were more familiar with the people. They knew

10 their priorities. We didn't have enough supplies for everyone. You can

11 just imagine when hungry and thirsty people burst in.

12 Q. You had enough water but only limited quantities of bread. You

13 had as much as the bakery could produce and what you received from the

14 municipality of Ljubija in Serbia.

15 A. Well, water was an easy thing to deal with. There was also a

16 river nearby. Food was more difficult.

17 Q. Thank you. You were also informed that you as the civilian

18 protection were to take care of some 40 or so wounded and sick; correct?

19 A. Yes. In the health centre in Bratunac, we placed some 20 beds.

20 People were accommodated. Some were on the beds and were all medically

21 assisted.

22 Q. Did you establish that for the occasion, because of the

23 inhabitants who turned up in Potocari?

24 A. Yes. Before that we didn't have beds, because our population

25 went to the hospital in Zvornik. It was only provisionally made for the

Page 24410

1 situation itself.

2 Q. Is it correct that once the cameras left that someone took the

3 supplies from the people that had been given to them, like chocolate and

4 bread? Did anyone take it away from them?

5 A. It was -- it would be crazy. No one could have done that.

6 Whatever you distributed was gone the same moment. There's no discussion

7 about that.

8 Q. Thank you. After the third meeting, in the afternoon, on the

9 12th of July, vehicles began arriving, buses and trucks; right?

10 A. I saw that at around 8.00 p.m. I was in my office in the

11 municipal building. I was there with Dragan Mirkovic, the public

12 utilities company director. All of a sudden we heard from our

13 first-floor window that there was some noise and vehicles arriving. We

14 looked out and saw three buses parking in front of the municipal

15 building.

16 Q. Before the meeting on the -- the third meeting in the Fontana in

17 the afternoon of the 12th, no one had been evacuated?

18 A. That is correct. In the afternoon on the 12th when the meeting

19 was concluded at around 11.30, that's when means of transport were sought

20 and buses arrived later in the afternoon.

21 Q. I would like to clarify something. Were you present during a

22 telephone conversation between myself and Deronjic on the 11th or 13th of

23 July?

24 A. No. I was never present during any conversation between you and

25 Deronjic.

Page 24411

1 Q. I'm sorry, then. I must have confused you with another witness.

2 In any case, you heard that on the 11th, Deronjic was appointed

3 civilian affairs commissioner in Srebrenica?

4 A. Yes. Deronjic said so.

5 Q. Thank you. On the 13th, did you also send water to the Muslims

6 who were captured during their breakthrough attempt, who were then

7 gathered at Sandici meadow?

8 A. No. The buses in front of the municipality - I mentioned three -

9 in front of them there was a policeman when we came out, in front of the

10 first bus. We asked him where these people came from. He said, Well, we

11 brought them in. We asked him where they were going. He replied that

12 they were to go to Batkovic to be exchanged. Then at some point I saw a

13 man on the bus knocking against the window, and I recognised him. I

14 think he was an Omo Jahic from Bljeceva. He worked in the mine and was

15 municipal deputy before the war. I told the policeman that there was a

16 man trying to tell me something, and I asked to be allowed to get in the

17 bus. It was already dark by that time, but still it was very hot and

18 humid.

19 The policeman allowed me in, and I asked him, Omo, what do you

20 want? He used my nickname. He said, Buco, brother, could you provide

21 some water? And I asked the policeman if I could. He said, If you have

22 it, go ahead.

23 There was a water fountain in front of the municipality, and we

24 found a plastic water tank, and when we told them they could get water,

25 they all managed to have one such water tank. We took them all, filled

Page 24412

1 them up with water and gave them to them. We did the same with the other

2 bus, and we filled up at least 50 such water tanks.

3 Perhaps that's what you meant when you asked me about water being

4 provided for the people at Sandici, but I didn't take any water to

5 Sandici.

6 Q. Could it have been someone else then working for the civilian

7 protection as part of your operation? Did anyone take water trucks to

8 Sandici?

9 A. It is possible, because we had the fire brigade under us, and

10 they had a water truck. It is possible they took water there.

11 Q. Thank you. Did you hear anything about the incident in Kravica

12 on the 13th of July in the evening, and if so, when?

13 A. I heard about it on the 14th in the morning at 7.00. Two

14 co-operative managers, Jovan Nikolic and Dragan Nikolic arrived in my

15 office. They told me what had happened the previous day in the afternoon

16 in the co-operative at Kravica. It was the first time I heard of it.

17 I was astonished. That's the first time I heard about the event.

18 Q. Thank you. Please go ahead.

19 A. Well, they stayed with me for an hour or so, told me some details

20 about what happened, and they, too, had problems by the Serb -- caused by

21 the Serb soldiers who did that, who were there. They said that several

22 hundred people were killed in Kravica and that the corpses were still

23 there.

24 Q. They were appalled too?

25 A. Yes. They wanted to know what to do, because there wasn't much

Page 24413

1 for them to do anyhow. It was a military operation. If anyone was to do

2 anything, it was the army to do so. There was nothing there for us.

3 Q. What did you learn about how the incident took place?

4 A. What I learned was that a Muslim prisoner took a policeman's

5 rifle and killed him. It provoked a reaction, and they were all killed,

6 massacred. Now, whether it was so or not, I don't know. That's the

7 story I heard.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Davidovic, who did you hear that from?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't be certain

11 that it is the two men who told me that, the two Nikolics. In all

12 likelihood they told me that, but I may have heard it later on as well.

13 I no longer know who I heard it from.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

15 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. But that's the story that prevailed and was taken as true by

18 most. That's the story everyone was familiar with.

19 A. Yes. That is why I am uncertain who told me first. I heard

20 certain variations later on.

21 Q. Thank you. Following your conversation with the policeman

22 guarding the buses who told you they were to go to Batkovic, did you

23 think that all of the prisoners would be indeed taken there? Did you

24 have any knowledge, or were you under an impression that there were other

25 plans in store for them?

Page 24414

1 A. Well, I was convinced it would be so. Nothing had happened up to

2 that point. At that time, there were 80 captured Serb soldiers from

3 Majevica who were held in Tuzla, and apparently these prisoners were to

4 be exchanged for the soldiers in Tuzla. I was convinced it would turn

5 out that way.

6 Q. Thank you. You were also under the impression that the incident

7 in Kravica had not been planned but that it was triggered by the killing,

8 when the rifle was taken away from a policeman.

9 A. Well, I was so much surprised that -- I was so astonished,

10 because as I said, at the Fontana meeting, there wasn't even a hint of

11 anything like that. I thought that the things agreed on at the meeting

12 were to be implemented that way.

13 It will never be clear to me how things got out of hand to that

14 extent and why it all happened. The story is that the reason was when

15 the rifle was taken from the policeman and he was killed.

16 Q. Do you remember that the event in Kravica back in 1993 could have

17 been a further circumstance which made the flaring up of the situation in

18 1995 easier?

19 A. It's all possible. There was a war, and I really don't know what

20 to think of it. It could have contributed.

21 Q. It's difficult to deal with all that misery; right?

22 A. Well, yes.

23 Q. Do you know how the bodies were buried? Do you know whether it

24 was done by the municipal services and whether they were in charge of

25 taking hygiene and sanitation measures?

Page 24415

1 A. Well, I wasn't interested. To me, everything that was done was

2 done by the army. They mobilised part of the civilian protection, and it

3 seems they participated in the cleaning up afterwards. However, no one

4 asked me anything about that, and I didn't issue any orders to anyone,

5 including the civilian protection in that regard.

6 Q. Thank you. Under our law, the army could mobilise the civilian

7 protection.

8 A. Yes. The Ministry of Defence had that right. The civilian

9 protection was under their cap, and they could assign them as they

10 wished.

11 Q. Thank you. Did you know anything about the requests of certain

12 officers to accommodate some soldiers, to billet them there, and how

13 Deronjic and the civilian authorities resist that attempt asking that

14 they be taken out of Bratunac?

15 A. You're referring to the situation of the 12th in the evening when

16 the buses arrived in Bratunac. There were six buses in total in front of

17 the municipality. I was informed that on a football pitch there were

18 another 20 to 25 buses. I was surprised by that too. Perhaps that's

19 around 9.00 or 10.00 in the evening I met Deronjic. Bratunac is a small

20 town, and the municipal building is in the centre. So the entire area

21 includes 100, 200 metres. And I asked Deronjic, Why are they bringing in

22 so many buses to Bratunac? He literally said, We were being set up by

23 Rajko Dukic. All these buses came from him, from Mile and Kasaba. And

24 he sent them all to Bratunac. Then I told him, Miroslav, try to use your

25 contacts with the government or the president to have the buses taken out

Page 24416

1 of Bratunac, including the people on them.

2 It was around 9.00 or 10.00 in the evening. The next morning,

3 the buses indeed left Bratunac.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 A. Now, I did not ask Miroslav whether he had called anyone to

6 intervene and whether the buses left on those orders or on that

7 intervention, but all I know is that the bus did leave.

8 Q. Thank you. The remainder of the -- the remaining members of the

9 civilian authorities in Bratunac, did they share your sentiments about

10 the events in Kravica? Was that a shock to them as well, a surprise?

11 A. Well, for everyone there it was a surprise and a shock. At

12 first, people couldn't even believe that something like that could have

13 happened, but it did.

14 Q. Thank you. Did you hear of people being taken off buses,

15 individual people, or, first of all, do you agree that these civilians

16 left, civilians from Potocari, left towards Kladanj without anyone being

17 taken off the bus?

18 A. Well, at the time, I had not heard about people being taken off

19 buses, not at that time. Perhaps a few months later when people were

20 talking again about and retelling the events there were such instances,

21 but not in Bratunac. On the way to Vlasenica and Kladanj and so on,

22 there were stories that some buses were stopped there and the people were

23 taken off buses, but in Bratunac that did not happen at the time. At

24 least I didn't know of it and I didn't see any such thing.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 24417

1 JUDGE KWON: If I can intervene. Mr. Davidovic, you referred to

2 Rajko Djukic. Do you remember having said that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dukic, D.

4 JUDGE KWON: You said, referring to Deronjic, "We were being set

5 up by Rajko Dukic. All these buses came from him, from Milici and

6 Kasaba. And he sent them all to Bratunac."

7 Do you remember having said that?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE KWON: And in the Popovic transcript, page 9217, you

10 testified that "Rajko Dukic from Milic is framing -- framing us up." Do

11 you remember having said that also?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just interpreted verbatim

13 Deronjic's word. He said Rajko Dukic is framing us up with this. He

14 sent his buses from his municipality to Bratunac municipality.

15 JUDGE KWON: It's a bit difficult to follow what it meant. Could

16 you tell us who Mr. Dukic was or what he was, and what Deronjic meant by

17 saying so, Rajko Dukic is framing this -- or setting this up. Could you

18 expand a little bit more on that.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rajko Dukic is from Milici. He was

20 the manager of the bauxite mine, and he was a very influential person

21 both in Milici and in the general area referred to as Birac. I think

22 that in that area he was the most prominent political figure. I believe

23 that he was the man in charge even higher up than Deronjic. Now, whether

24 there were some rivalries between him and Deronjic in the political

25 sense, I don't know, but I don't think that this convoy which he said he

Page 24418

1 had sent towards Bratunac, I don't think it is a reflection of their

2 animosity, the animosity between the two of them.

3 Now, why Deronjic said that this was -- that Rajko Dukic was

4 framing us up, then he would know why he said that. I don't, but I just

5 interpreted his words verbatim.

6 Have I cleared that up a bit?

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I wonder whether you can answer, tell us why

8 or how come Mr. Dukic could send the buses to Bratunac at all.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies. I can't hear very

10 clearly.

11 THE ACCUSED: The witness didn't hear translation.

12 JUDGE KWON: My question was how come --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot hear this. I cannot hear.

14 JUDGE KWON: Okay. Our usher will assist you.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you well, but I cannot

16 hear the interpreters, or I can barely hear them.

17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Davidovic, do you hear me now well?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you very well, and I

19 could hear you before as well, but interpreters -- now -- now it's

20 better.

21 JUDGE KWON: My question was: How come Mr. Dukic was able to

22 send the buses to Bratunac at all?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've already said that he was

24 a very prominent person, and he may have a sway over the army as well.

25 That's my assessment.

Page 24419

1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Can I try and clarify this. Is it correct that Muslim soldiers

4 were captured in various woods in Milici, Vlasenica, Cerska, Zvornik, and

5 Kamenica municipalities, and that all those prisoners of war were sent

6 back to Bratunac at the time? So was it in that sense that Deronjic said

7 if they had been captured in Milici, he should have kept them in Milici?

8 A. Well, I believe that the largest number of soldiers were captured

9 in Milici, because the road, or, the route that the Muslims took towards

10 Kladanj and Tuzla went through their municipality.

11 Q. Thank you. So Deronjic considered that Dukic probably felt that

12 they should not remain in his municipality, although they had been

13 captured there, and that they should be sent and kept in the

14 municipalities where -- and that Deronjic felt that they should be kept

15 where they were captured.

16 A. Well, yes. Why would they be sent to Bratunac?

17 Q. Thank you. Well, I don't know if this is clear for the

18 Trial Chamber, but that is how I understood, that they felt -- that he

19 felt they wanted to get rid of these prisoners of war. They didn't want

20 them on the territory of their municipality. Am I correct?

21 Is that more or less the gist of his suspicion that this was a

22 frame-up by Dukic?

23 A. Well, yes. The gist is -- or the point is, you know, I want to

24 just take the burden off my back and put it on someone else's back.

25 Q. Well, that's a saying, isn't it? That's our saying.

Page 24420

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, you then heard that some of those

3 prisoners were held at the school building and that after the evacuation

4 it turned out that there were people killed and that bodies were found in

5 almost all of these classrooms, and that, too, was a shock?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And do you remember that the civilian protection and the

8 utilities, the public utilities company that also deal with funerals,

9 that they then buried these men?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When did you learn, aside from the media and various rumours that

12 were going around, when did you learn that there were some killings on

13 route to Batkovici?

14 A. Well, some 10 days or so later, 10 to 15 days later.

15 Q. Do you believe those rumours?

16 A. Unfortunately, yes, because I heard this from competent, to put

17 it this way, people that that was done.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, can you confirm for the Trial Chamber that

19 Batkovic as a co-operative and a prison for prisoners of war was near

20 Bijeljina and that in order to get to -- if you wanted to get from

21 Bratunac to Batkovic you would have to get through Konjevic Polje,

22 Zvornik, and so on?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, when the buses set out towards Zvornik, towards

25 Batkovici, did you and other people around you believe that they would

Page 24421

1 end up in Batkovic?

2 A. Well, I didn't really investigate that, but I was told by this

3 police officer that they were going for Batkovic, but whether that

4 actually happened or not, I don't know.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like to ask you this: Did you ever hear

6 from any Serb, any official or any outsider, did you ever see or sense or

7 learn that they wanted to eradicate Muslims, to kick them out of there,

8 or to do anything to them that they wouldn't want to be done unto them?

9 A. Never. At the meeting on the 12th, I learnt that it would be

10 carried out properly as agreed at the meeting, and I was even regaled by

11 what the commander of the Dutch Battalion said, who said that he had

12 received an order from his command or his government to take part in the

13 organisation of this transport of Muslims towards Kladanj, and the

14 meeting was already wrapping up, we were all standing, and at that point

15 even Mladic said, Well, I'll provide the buses, you take care of the

16 fuel. So it ended up on a more positive note, if I can put it that way,

17 and I was convince that that's how it would be carried out, but of course

18 the story's different now.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, do you agree that the entire Serb population,

20 including the authorities, as well as the parties, Serb parties, differed

21 significantly in their position vis-a-vis various Muslims? In other

22 words, is it correct that Serbs did not have a problem with Muslims

23 per se, but that they also had close ties with Zulfikarpasic and other

24 Muslims?

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did if the hear the other

Page 24422

1 names.

2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Just as you had good relations with Muslims in the town itself,

4 whereas the extremist were in the surrounding villages?

5 A. Well, I'm sure Muhamed Filipovic and Adil Zulfikarpasic were --

6 or, had followed the softer line than the SDA, and according to us, our

7 sense was that it would be easier to reach a compromise with them than

8 with the SDA.

9 Q. Thank you. Well, I just wanted to show here, were Serbs against

10 Muslims or against fundamentalism?

11 A. Well, absolutely. Not at one point -- I never thought that they

12 were against Muslims as an ethnicity, but they were against

13 fundamentalism.

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Davidovic, and my apologies if I was not precise

15 enough, but thank you for your efficient answers to my cross-examination.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

17 Your Excellency, and I've completed my examination three minutes before

18 time. So I would really appreciate being applauded here, because usually

19 I go too far and I step over my time limit.

20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

21 Ms. West, do you have re-examination?

22 MS. WEST: I do, Mr. President, and I wonder if the Court would

23 agree to take the break now and indulge me with this time.

24 JUDGE KWON: How long?

25 MS. WEST: I suspect it will be at least 20 minutes.

Page 24424

1 JUDGE BAIRD: Were they -- were they prisoners of war?

2 A. I don't know their origins. I don't know how to classify them,

3 but for the most part these were people who had lived in Srebrenica, in

4 that area. Now, as to who brought them there and how they happened to be

5 there, I don't know about that.

6 JUDGE BAIRD: Thank you. Yes, Ms. West.

7 MS. WEST: Thank you, Your Honour. May I have 65 ter 16205,

8 please.

9 Re-examination by Ms. West:

10 Q. Mr. Davidovic, on page 54 today you mentioned a gentleman who's

11 name was Omo Jahic as the man who was on the bus. Do you remember that?

12 A. Yes, I do. His name was not Omer but Omo, O-m-o, just three

13 letters.

14 Q. Thank you. And could you spell his last name, please?

15 A. Do you want me to spell it? J-a-h-i-c. J-a-h-i-c, five letters.

16 Q. And do you know his father's name?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And today --

19 A. He was about 50 to 55 years old, that man.

20 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. And today at page 63, you were

21 talking about killings on the route to Batkovici, and the question was:

22 "Do you believe those rumours?"

23 And your answer was:

24 "Unfortunately, yes, because I heard this from competent, to put

25 it this way, people that that was done."

Page 24425

1 Can you please tell us from whom you heard this.

2 A. Well, I don't know if I said that this was on the way to

3 Fakovici, because Fakovici are in the opposite direction. They are not

4 downstream but upstream, up the Drina River, but maybe that's not even

5 important.

6 I heard that -- no, I'm not really clear on what you mean by

7 Fakovici. I believe I did not mention Fakovici in this context.

8 Q. You're right, you didn't. You said -- my fault. You said

9 Batkovici.

10 A. Oh, sorry, so that's Batkovici. Batkovici is a town you get to

11 via Konjevic Polje, Zvornik, and it is in the Bijeljina municipality. I

12 didn't hear that they were killed in Batkovici but, rather, en route from

13 Zvornik to Batkovici. I heard that. I mean, there were rumours in town.

14 I heard from people who were members of the army that these things had

15 happened, but I couldn't really say that I heard this from people who

16 would spread rumours. Rather, this is something that actually did

17 happen. There was mention of Kozluk, Celopek, Pilica.

18 Q. Okay. So if I should understand correctly, you don't remember

19 the actual names of the people who told you this, but you remember those

20 people were trustworthy.

21 A. Exactly.

22 Q. So now we have 65 ter 16205 in front of us, and I want to talk to

23 you about this in regard to your testimony on page 48 today. On page 48,

24 you indicated that the bus had not been mobilised by the 10.00 meeting,

25 and that would be the 10.00 meeting at the Hotel Fontana on the 12th. So

Page 24426

1 I'd like to go through this together. This is a document from the

2 12th of July, Zvornik public security centre.

3 And number 1 says:

4 Acting in accordance with your dispatch, I contacted the civilian

5 commissioner in Bratunac, Miroslav Deronjic.

6 Number 2:

7 A meeting with Mladic and Krstic was held at the Bratunac Brigade

8 headquarters at 8.00 at which tasks were assigned to all those involved.

9 Now, you were at a meeting with Mladic at 8.00 at the

10 Bratunac Brigade headquarters; right?

11 A. I think this is not a reference to that meeting, because there

12 were no tasks assigned, and General Krstic was not present, and he is

13 mentioned here.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. I believe this is not about that meeting, not at the meeting with

16 Mladic at 8.00.

17 Q. Okay. Well, notwithstanding those two facts, you indeed did meet

18 with Mladic at 8.00 that morning at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters;

19 correct?

20 A. Yes, correct.

21 Q. And number 3:

22 The military operation is continuing according to plan. The

23 Turks are fleeing ... while the civilians have gathered in Potocari,

24 about 15.000.

25 4:

Page 24427

1 Consultations are underway to appoint the chief of the public

2 security situation in Srebrenica and the commander of the police station

3 in Srebrenica and select 15 policemen from the ranks who along with the

4 newly elected president of Srebrenica, the chairman of the

5 Srebrenica Executive Board and priests will immediately take over all

6 important facilities in the town.

7 Sir, my question for you is whether at this -- looking at

8 number 4, does this sound to you that planning and decisions were already

9 well underway by that point, by the time this document was written?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please be shown a better

11 copy, because I'm not sure the translation is correct. I don't think

12 that what we see in English here is actually consistent with what it says

13 in Serbian, because it's out of the question that a priest would take

14 over the Executive Board. There must be something -- some mistake there.

15 JUDGE KWON: Ms. West.

16 MS. WEST: Your Honour, I don't have a better version, but if --

17 if the concern is the issue with the priests, I can take that part out of

18 my question.

19 Q. So, Mr. Davidovic, assuming take the priest part out, does that

20 sound to you, the things that I read off, that the planning and decisions

21 were already well underway by the writing of this document?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, my apologies, but I would

23 also like to know what other mistakes there may be in translation other

24 than the priest issue, because the -- the text in Serbian is not quite

25 legible.

Page 24428

1 JUDGE KWON: While we can following the English on our personal

2 computer, why don't we zoom in in the Serbian, B/C/S version. A bit

3 farther.

4 MS. WEST:

5 Q. Does that help you, Mr. Davidovic?

6 A. Well, yes. This is a bit better, but I have never seen this

7 letter before. As far as I could see from the heading, this was sent

8 from the police station in Bijeljina to the Ministry of the Interior at

9 Pale. And they're reporting on some of their activities, or some

10 activities that I knew nothing about, nor was I ever informed of anything

11 of that sort.

12 Q. Well, at that time, at 8.00 in the morning on the 12th, you were

13 aware that there were events going on in Potocari and Srebrenica;

14 correct?

15 MR. ROBINSON: Objection, leading.

16 MS. WEST: I can rephrase.

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

18 MS. WEST: Thank you.

19 Q. On the morning of the 12th, what was your understanding as to

20 what was going on with the refugees from Srebrenica in Potocari?

21 A. At the time, I didn't even know that there were refugees in

22 Potocari at 8.00 in the morning. I only learned of that at the meeting

23 at the Fontana Hotel at 10.00, I learned the fact that there were

24 refugees in Potocari.

25 Q. All right. And we move to number 5 which talks about that

Page 24429

1 meeting you attended:

2 A meeting will begin at 10.00 that morning with representatives

3 of the UNPROFOR and the International Red Cross and the Muslim

4 representative of Srebrenica at which an agreement will be reached on the

5 evacuation of the civilian population from Potocari to Kladanj.

6 So let's stop there. Indeed, you went to a 10.00 meeting; right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And would you agree with me that as regards this document, it

9 appears that it had to have been written before that 10.00 meeting?

10 A. Well, I couldn't really comment on that. I really don't know

11 anything about that. This is the first time that I see this, and I see

12 that it's the police station in Bijeljina and the ministry. I don't

13 really know.

14 MS. WEST: Mr. President, we do have a better version of this

15 document. I think if you unlock or --

16 JUDGE KWON: Shall we put it on the [overlapping speakers]

17 MS. WEST: We can upload it. One moment, please.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I ask Ms. West to ask the

19 witness how far Bijeljina is from Bratunac. Perhaps we should establish

20 that as well.

21 JUDGE KWON: We can know that from any map.

22 Yes. I think this is better. Yes.

23 MS. WEST: Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Reid.

24 JUDGE KWON: Why don't we ask the witness to read the para --

25 para 5, in particular those in parentheses, because English translation

Page 24430

1 says it was illegible.

2 MS. WEST:

3 Q. Sir, if you can go ahead and read both 4 and 5, please.

4 A. The fourth paragraph:

5 "An agreement is underway on appointing the chief of the public

6 security station in Srebrenica and the commander of the police station

7 Srebrenica, as well as a selection of 15 police officers from the VRS who

8 would, together with the newly appointed president of the Srebrenica

9 municipality and the president of the Executive Committee of Srebrenica

10 as well as priests, immediately take control of all significant buildings

11 in the city."

12 Paragraph 5:

13 "At 10.00, a meeting with representatives of the UNPROFOR,

14 International Red Cross, and Muslim representatives from Srebrenica has

15 begun, and an agreement on the evacuation of all civilian populations

16 from Potocari to Kladanj has been reached."

17 And then in parentheses:

18 "(So that they would have more problems there.)"

19 This is not logical. What it says in parentheses is that so that

20 they should have more problems there or more difficulties there.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. "One hundred trailer trucks for transport have already been

23 assigned."

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Davidovic. So we'll go to --

25 JUDGE KWON: So the translation is not the meeting will begin at

Page 24431

1 10.00. The meeting has begun. Did you notice the difference in

2 interpretation.

3 MS. WEST: If we can have him read it again. I didn't see that

4 there.

5 Q. Sir, can you read the beginning of paragraph 5 again?

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: In Serbian, it is -- it

7 could be interpreted in either way. Either will begin or has begun.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "At 10.00 a meeting has begun or

9 will begin with representatives of the UNPROFOR and International Red

10 Cross. At 10.00, a meeting is beginning."

11 MS. WEST:

12 Q. Okay. Fair enough. But that -- that paragraph goes on, "At

13 10.00 the meeting is beginning," and it goes on, it says, regarding the

14 agreement of the evacuation of all civilian population from Potocari.

15 Sir, when we talked to you about the meeting at 8.00 -- or when

16 you spoke about the meeting at 8.00 and then the 10.00 meeting that you

17 went to, you indicated to the Court that the evacuation of the Muslims

18 from Potocari had not yet been decided, that in fact they had been

19 given -- they would be given a choice. So how do you rectify this

20 paragraph with your own testimony?

21 A. I've said that at the meeting at 10.00, I realised that there was

22 an earlier meeting where only the president was present. That

23 Mancic, Nesib, and no agreement had been reached at that meeting. So at

24 this new meeting, the third meeting at 10.00, a delegation of Muslims

25 arrived. There was larger number of people together with Nesib Mancic.

Page 24432

1 There was also Ibro Nuhanovic and --

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the third name.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And they came with a proposal that

4 they had decided on in Srebrenica. So at this second meeting, in my

5 view, Nesib could not could not say either way we are leaving or we are

6 staying. I believe he had to go for consultations to Srebrenica, and

7 then he returned later on to this meeting, the three of them, and they

8 told them -- they told us what they had decided.

9 MS. WEST:

10 Q. But in regard to that meeting at page 48 you also said that the

11 buses had not been mobilised by the 10.00 a.m. meeting, and then page 53,

12 you said, when the meeting concluded at 11.30 that's when transport was

13 sought and the buses arrived. But let's go back to this document. You

14 just read that a hundred trailer trucks have been provided for transport.

15 Mr. Davidovic, would you agree with this document, or I will ask

16 for your comment as to the inconsistency with your testimony. Do you

17 agree that the buses and transport had already been prepared?

18 JUDGE KWON: Let me -- let me clarify this. Is it your position

19 that this document was written before the meeting?

20 MS. WEST: My position is that it was written before or just as

21 the meeting was happening, the 10.00 meeting.

22 JUDGE KWON: Immediately after the meeting.

23 MS. WEST: Mr. Davidovic's testimony --

24 JUDGE KWON: Could you -- could you repeat what you said? It was

25 before or just as the meeting was happening?

Page 24433

1 MS. WEST: If -- if -- the question is when this document was

2 created.

3 JUDGE KWON: So it will depend upon the interpretation of the --

4 of para 5.

5 MS. WEST: Right, which is the --

6 JUDGE KWON: And according to what Mr. Davidovic read, it was

7 translated as the agreement has been reached. Line 21, page 72. So

8 before going further, I want that part to be clarified first.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if I may. Here there is just

10 a projection of what kind of agreement will be reached, because it says

11 here at 10.00 a meeting begins with the UNPROFOR members and members of

12 the International Committee of the Red Cross as well as Muslim

13 representatives from Srebrenica where an agreement on evacuation is to be

14 or will be reached. So that would imply that that was about to happen

15 that --

16 JUDGE KWON: Hmm. Very well.

17 MS. WEST:

18 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Davidovic. Let's go back to the trucks,

19 the hundred trailer trucks that have been provided for transport. Would

20 you agree that at the writing of this document the mobilisation of trucks

21 had already begun?

22 A. I've already said that this meeting ended at around 11.00 or a

23 bit after 11.00. It ended hastily in a way, and this is why: Somebody

24 came into the room where the meeting was being held and said that the

25 population in Potocari was getting restless and that there was a threat

Page 24434

1 that -- there was a fear that the people, the civilian population, the

2 people will set out from Potocari towards Bratunac on foot, which would

3 be a disaster, because if 10.000 people were to move, you can imagine.

4 So in a way the meeting was hastily wrapped up to prevent this from

5 happening, and they wanted the delegation to get back to Potocari and

6 tell them that there would be transportation provided.

7 As for these 100 trailer trucks, I don't know that there were as

8 many. No one talked about it at the meeting, nor do I know who it was

9 who provided all these vehicles. Probably the military. We had no

10 influence on that, nor did anyone ask us to do anything in that respect.

11 We were just asked to be humane, but nobody asked us for any vehicles or

12 fuel or anything like that.

13 Q. Mr. Davidovic, at line [sic] 76 and 7, you said that the

14 people -- there was a concern that the people would set out from Potocari

15 towards Bratunac on foot and so then it appears that the meeting ended

16 hastily. I'm not familiar with that. Have you testified to that before,

17 in your memory?

18 A. Yes, I have.

19 Q. Okay.

20 MS. WEST: Your Honour, I'd like to tender this document.

21 MR. ROBINSON: Objection, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.

23 MR. ROBINSON: The witness hasn't confirmed anything about the

24 document.

25 JUDGE KWON: Ms. West.

Page 24435

1 MS. WEST: The witness indeed confirmed that he was at an 8.00

2 meeting with General Mladic at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters. That

3 is the second paragraph. He indicates that he didn't see Krstic and no

4 tasks were assigned. I think it's very possible that tasks were assigned

5 afterwards, but this document deals with the very same subject matter

6 that that witness testified to at his own meeting. I think the witness

7 has documents authenticated, but I think the witness is certainly making

8 it reliable and certainly relevant.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I add something?

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I add something?

14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Davidovic.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the meeting at 8.00, those who

16 were there, Simatovic, Aco Tesic, and I, we were there for about

17 20 minutes, then we left. So around 20 minutes. We left the command

18 when we were told to attend a meeting at 10.00, Simic and I. Maybe the

19 meeting was resumed following our departure, but we were no longer there.

20 Perhaps at 8.30 Krstic indeed arrived and they continued with the

21 meeting, but we were no longer there.

22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Davidovic also testified about attending 10.00

23 meeting in that regard. This document may help us -- contextualise that

24 part of his evidence. In that regard, we will admit this.

25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P4373.

Page 24436

1 MS. WEST: May I have 65 ter 30940A. Sorry.

2 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry. We will admit only the first page. Only

3 that document. It consists of four or five documents. Yes.

4 MS. WEST: 65 ter 30940A.

5 Q. Mr. Davidovic, before we leave this issue about buses as regards

6 your testimony that they had not been mobilised by the time of the

7 Hotel Fontana meeting, I'd like to show you this: This is an

8 intercept from 12 July at 7.35 in the morning, and it's --

9 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation].

10 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, Mr. Karadzic?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. Please, language is of

12 utmost importance here. If something is stated as being provided, it

13 doesn't mean it was commandeered or mobilised. "Provided" means that

14 there was information where vehicles were, but they were not mobilised.

15 Perhaps you can ask the witness to distinguish between the two words.

16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Ms. West would be happy to reformulate

17 the question.

18 MS. WEST: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sorry. It also affects the

20 previous document, which says "provided." In other words, they had

21 information where to find those assets rather than them being mobilised

22 already.

23 JUDGE KWON: That's sufficient.

24 Yes, Ms. West.

25 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 24437

1 Q. This regards today's testimony when you spoke about buses, and

2 this is an intercept July 12th. It's between Krstic who at that time was

3 still the Chief of Staff, and Krsmanovic who was head of transportation.

4 And we'll just read this. It's quite short:

5 "Krstic: Hello, is that Krsmanovic?

6 "X: Yes, go ahead.

7 "K: Listen write this down.

8 "X: Yes.

9 "K: Now, Pale, Visegrad, Rogatica, Sokolac, Han Pijesak,

10 Vlasenica, Milici, Bratunac, Zvornik. Now, this from all these places,

11 50 buses in total are to be at the stadium in Bratunac by 1700 hours.

12 "X: At 1700 hours at the Bratunac stadium.

13 "K: Make very sure this is done. Is that clear?

14 "X: Understood.

15 "K: Go ahead."

16 Mr. Davidovic, my question for you regards the night of the 12th.

17 You testified today that there were several buses in the town of

18 Bratunac. You, yourself, saw at least 6 and then you had information

19 that there were 20 to 25 at the stadium. Can you tell the Trial Chamber,

20 if you know, how early did all those buses arrive in Bratunac?

21 A. I think this intercept does not discuss the buses I mentioned.

22 Q. And why -- go ahead.

23 A. The buses I discussed arrived in front of the municipal building

24 between 8.00 and 8.30 p.m.

25 Q. And prior to that period of time, during the day did you see any

Page 24438

1 other buses in Bratunac?

2 A. I did not.

3 Q. And for some of that day you were in Potocari; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Go ahead.

6 A. I was in Potocari perhaps between 2.00 and 4.00 p.m.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MS. WEST: Mr. President, in regard to the issue of the term

9 "mobilised," I used the term because I was reciting the witness's

10 testimony today, and he said: "If I say that up until then it was

11 uncertain"--

12 JUDGE KWON: Page?

13 MS. WEST: Forty-eight. Excuse me, excuse me. The question is

14 this:

15 "Am I right if I say that up until then it was uncertain whether

16 they would leave and until then buses had not been mobilised, and no one

17 realised that they would leave for sure?"

18 And the answer was:

19 "I did not know that that would happen."

20 But, Your Honour --

21 JUDGE KWON: Did you say page 48?

22 MS. WEST: Page 48 of today's transcript, lines 14 through 17.

23 JUDGE KWON: Seven to -- I'm sorry, I couldn't find it. Let us

24 proceed.

25 MS. WEST: Okay. And may this document be marked for

Page 24439

1 identification.

2 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure whether witness has given any

3 foundation about this document. At the moment, could you tender it at a

4 later stage?

5 MS. WEST: Yes, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

7 MS. WEST:

8 Q. Mr. Davidovic, I'm going to draw your attention to other

9 testimony today. At page 15, you were talking about the date of

10 April 17th, 1992, and you were talking about paramilitaries who appeared

11 at that time for the first time in Bratunac, and you said once they

12 arrived, the harassment and mistreatment of the Muslims began. Do you

13 remember that testimony?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And is it your position that the -- the harassment of Muslims

16 during that period of time were to be blamed on the paramilitary groups

17 who came to Bratunac?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And is it your testimony that the Bratunac leadership was not

20 co-operating or co-ordinating with these paramilitary groups or were not

21 involved with the paramilitaries' presence in Bratunac?

22 A. As far as I know, they were not.

23 Q. Okay.

24 MS. WEST: 65 ter, please, number 23611. If we can go to page 5,

25 please. It begins with "Factual Basis."

Page 24440

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

2 JUDGE KWON: On what basis, Mr. Karadzic?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On the basis that this material,

4 92 quater, was not admitted in my case and is part of the plea agreement

5 in question. I don't think it should be relied on in this case.

6 JUDGE KWON: What's the problem with putting a passage in the

7 document to the witness?

8 MR. ROBINSON: Well, Mr. President, this is actually attempting

9 to use the statements of this witness, and you've already found that it

10 is unfair for those statements to be used at this trial. So I don't see

11 why it would be legitimate to put a statement which has been excluded to

12 the witness.

13 JUDGE KWON: She's not tendering this document as evidence.

14 MR. ROBINSON: Well, that's true, but by -- she's using the

15 statement essentially to impeach this statement. So she's making

16 derivative use of the statement.

17 I also think, Mr. President, while we're on this subject that

18 before she proceeds any further, she should have to state her -- put her

19 case to the witness, because she's now cross-examining him, and she

20 should be required to put her case first and then not use any document

21 which has previously been excluded. Thank you.

22 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to respond, Ms. West?

23 MS. WEST: Your Honour, I'm not cross-examining this witness. I

24 specifically am avoiding using those types of questions. I'm trying to

25 elicit information about the subject matters this witness brought up on

Page 24441

1 cross-examination to elicit more information, which is exactly what I

2 plan to do with the statement. The witness can agree with these facts or

3 not agree with these facts, and he can also provide us more information.

4 I've not moved to admit this statement.

5 JUDGE KWON: Are you not going to contradict what the witness

6 early on?

7 MS. WEST: I mean, I asked the witness whether the information in

8 this statement is consistent with his own memory and some of it will be,

9 I suspect, based on what he has said and ask him to explain in those

10 situations where it's not. I'm not sure what this witness will say about

11 that, but I think it will be helpful to the Trial Chamber.

12 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE KWON: There are some unclear parts, but the Chamber sees

15 your line of question is -- is to contradict what witness said, so -- but

16 in any event, the Chamber will allow you to continue and that -- even if

17 the document is -- was not admitted or is not going to be admitted, I

18 don't see any problem in asking a question as to whether witness agrees

19 with a certain part of the document. Please carry on.

20 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. If the witness agrees

21 with a certain part of the document, then isn't the Prosecutor getting in

22 through the back door what you --

23 JUDGE KWON: No, you can ask -- cross-examine the witness based

24 upon the witness's evidence. We do not -- going to admit this document.

25 MR. ROBINSON: No, it doesn't matter whether you admit it or not.

Page 24442

1 If someone affirms the content of the document, it wouldn't make any

2 difference whether you've admitted the document or not. The substance

3 will have been admitted. I was wondering maybe if we could have this

4 conversation outside the presence of this witness, because I would think

5 if we think it through as to what the possibilities are, it might be

6 better if the witness isn't hearing that, but if you think about what --

7 I would like to know, for example, which paragraphs she wants to put to

8 this witness and if he confirms it. That's one thing. If he -- if it

9 contradicts then it may be another matter, but I don't think we should

10 discuss that in front of the witness.

11 JUDGE KWON: Has the -- I will refrain. Just a second.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE KWON: My apologies, Mr. Davidovic. If you could excuse

14 yourself for a moment. The Chamber will discuss some procedural issues.

15 [The witness stands down]

16 JUDGE KWON: How shall we start? First of all, Ms. West, why did

17 you need Deronjic's plea agreement or factual basis to put a certain

18 question to the witness?

19 MS. WEST: The -- the witness himself brought up a -- a number of

20 items that are in this plea agreement -- excuse me, the factual basis for

21 the plea agreement. It is a very good chronology of what was going on in

22 Bratunac at the time. It is a good basis by which to see -- to explore

23 with this witness what are the actual facts. It is just another

24 document. And I would suggest to the Court that it really -- it would be

25 as if I were taking the statement of another witness and showing it to