120504ED

Page 28518

1 What did you say after: "... from the 18th of ..."?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the 17th of April, not 18th.

3 The 17th of April. I was in the army. And in 1996, I served in Tito's

4 army.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 1966.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. If I may be of assistance, but please wait with your answer.

8 Don't start it immediately.

9 Is it correct that between 1966 and 1992, you were a reservist of

10 the JNA and you were called to participate in exercises?

11 A. No, I wasn't.

12 Q. Is it true that on the 17th of April, 1992, you joined the unit

13 commanded by the man that you mentioned and you stayed there without

14 interruption until 1996?

15 A. Yes, I did. But I did it mostly during the night because I had

16 to attend to my cattle during day-time. And when I moved to Tuzla, I was

17 in the logistics, providing water, food, firewood, et cetera, because I

18 was mobilised in January.

19 Q. You mean demobilised in January 1996?

20 A. Yes, 1996.

21 Q. Did this unit later on became part of the 281st Eastern Bosnia

22 Light Brigade?

23 A. I wouldn't know that.

24 Q. In one of your statements, you said to the commission of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina for collecting facts on the war, you said that the

Page 28519

1 fighting had started after the Serbs attacked the village of Podgaj from

2 the Serbian village of Derventa. Were there any fighting before the

3 16th of May, 1992?

4 A. I don't know the date when Podgaj was attacked and burned. I

5 don't remember the date.

6 Q. Thank you. But was there any fighting before the 16th of May and

7 was your units involved in the fighting and sabotage actions from the

8 very beginning until the very end?

9 A. I think that they didn't before the 17th. Nowhere. As far as I

10 can remember.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have in e-court D1987.

13 It used to be MFI'd but since we now have a translation, we have it as an

14 exhibit.

15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll not broadcast this one.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. If all the parties can

18 see the English version, maybe we can collapse it and leave only the

19 Serbian version, enlarge it so that the witness can see it better.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Witness, this contribution to the history of the

22 28th Division, or, rather, the 8th Operations Group, it was something

23 that was drawn up by the 8 OG and look what was being done.

24 It says from the 1st of May, a sabotage action was carried out in

25 Zutica sector. Then some attacks were avoided. And then on the

Page 28520

1 15th of May, they participated in -- liberated the area between Osredak,

2 Orahovica, Viogor, Bojna, Zeleni Jadar.

3 A. I don't remember those dates. I only remember that Podgaj was

4 attacked and people were expelled, as was Zutica.

5 Q. I'm not going to ask you about the dates.

6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, at least you please wait until the

7 English translation of witness's answer is completed.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. You're right.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. So, Mr. Witness, I'm only going to ask you if you aware of this

11 action, regardless of the date, and you can tell me whether you do know

12 or don't know.

13 A. I know that there was such an action but I don't know the date.

14 Q. But do you know that there was another attack on Zutica, or,

15 rather, a sabotage action, as written here, on the 22nd of May?

16 A. I can't tell you anything about these sabotage actions off the

17 top of my head and when they took place. I had other interests and

18 concerns of my own.

19 Q. All right. But you were a member of that unit which virtually on

20 a daily basis was actively involved in operations, either in attacks or

21 in defensive actions. So you carried out a large number of operations in

22 1992.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we move on. Can we scroll up

24 the page, please.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 28521

1 Q. Do you remember combat activities of your unit in the Serbian

2 village of Jezestica?

3 A. I know where that happened. A neighbour of mine was killed in

4 that action.

5 Q. Thank you. On this page, we can see that this happened on the

6 22nd of August, 1992.

7 Now I think we can move to the next page.

8 A. Don't ask me about the dates. I don't know any dates of any of

9 those events.

10 Q. You also know about a sabotage action on Besica Brdo, when you

11 captured a 55 tank, a PAT, and other war looty [as interpreted]?

12 A. Yes, I remember that.

13 Q. Then there was a sabotage action in Nikolici. Then an attack in

14 the Fakovici sector where you also seized a lot of combat materiel?

15 A. Mr. Karadzic, how come that you are listing all these villages

16 without mentioning the six municipalities that you have expelled people

17 from?

18 Q. We'll come to that. Mr. Witness, please, I would like to assure

19 you that I respect all the victims and I feel remorse for them, but we

20 need to go into all the combat activities that took place and how many

21 people were killed during those actions prior to July 1995.

22 A. I did not take part in any of the actions. I know that both

23 sides carried out their own actions.

24 Q. Thank you. Do you remember what happened at Fakovici? There was

25 a big operation there?

Page 28522

1 A. Yes, there was an action. I know that.

2 Q. Do you remember an attempt to return Pajici?

3 A. I have not heard about that before. What is the name of the

4 village?

5 Q. It is Pajici or Pejici?

6 A. Pajic? I know that there were two houses of the Pajic family in

7 Bukovica. I'm not familiar with the village called Pajic.

8 Q. Do you remember the 7th of January, 1993. There was an operation

9 in the Kravica sector?

10 A. I remember that.

11 Q. Do you know how many Serbian villagers were killed in Kravica on

12 that day?

13 A. I don't know. I was not there. I don't know how many of ours of

14 yours got killed.

15 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that you recognised some people later

16 on in July 1995, some people who arrived from Visnjica. Do you remember

17 that your unit carried out several actions against Visnjica and the last

18 of those actions was sometime on the 22nd of June, 1995?

19 A. I remember when it was.

20 Q. Thank you. Is it true that the Lipovac and Kutezero companies

21 from January 1993 to January 1994 were on the strength of the independent

22 battalion Zeleni Jadar?

23 A. I don't know that. I don't know on whose strength those

24 companies were.

25 Q. Okay. I'm going to read the names and you can tell me whether

Page 28523

1 you know them or not.

2 Up to the 31st of January, 1994 - we can scroll up a little - did

3 the following people get killed.

4 Maho Avdic, Sead Hodzic, Salko Becirevic, Juso Medic,

5 Adil Hasanovic, Merludin Ahmetovic [phoen]. Let me not read all of the

6 names. Can you please look at the names.

7 We are looking at chapter 4. Can we have that?

8 A. Yes, I remember that those people got killed.

9 Q. Chapter 5. Please scroll up a little bit more.

10 Can you see the names? Can you read the names? The names of the

11 combatants who got killed before the 31st of January, 1994.

12 A. I can't see that.

13 Q. Very well.

14 Very well. I will leave that subject. But, in any case, that

15 unit was very active, very courageous, the command was very good, the

16 commanders were different. There was Zulfo among them as well as

17 Mujo Bektic. There were different commanders; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. We'll find that in chapter 4 of this report that ends

20 with the year 1994.

21 Let us leave this topic.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, can this be admitted

23 because we have a translation of the document now.

24 JUDGE KWON: Shall we deal with it now or leave it to be dealt

25 with together with all the other MFI documents.

Page 28524

1 Mr. Robinson.

2 If Prosecution is in the position to respond to the accused's

3 request to fully admit this.

4 MS. WEST: I'd appreciate leaving it to till later, please.

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

6 Yes, we leave it at that, to make a more informed decision,

7 when -- to -- to look into the situation when it was admitted. It's

8 better to leave it now.

9 Let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Between you and the Serbian villages around you -- or, rather,

13 the Serbian villages closest to you were they under the control of the

14 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina or did they have their own control, or,

15 rather, was there a line between you and your villages?

16 A. As far as I know, those Serbian villages that I know were never

17 under the control of Zulfo Tursunovic.

18 As for the line, there was a line between us and them.

19 Q. You are saying that there was a line between the villages. That

20 you were on the one side and the others -- they were on the other. How

21 far were they from the line?

22 A. It depended on the configuration of the terrain. At places they

23 were 2 kilometres away. They were closest to the line near Slatina.

24 Q. Did you know each other before the war?

25 A. Well, who do you mean?

Page 28525

1 Q. Your neighbours. Your Serbian neighbours from the neighbouring

2 villages.

3 A. I knew a lot of them. I knew a lot of people from Koprivno,

4 Nikolici, Vasiljevici, Derventa. We knew each other and we were good

5 neighbours. If anybody had told me that things like that would happen, I

6 would not have believed them.

7 Q. During the war, were there any contacts, since you knew each

8 other, were there any contacts between you? Did you trade or anything?

9 A. As far as I know, I don't remember that there were any contacts,

10 unless somebody did it furtively. As far as I remember, nobody contacted

11 anybody there.

12 Q. Thank you. You're saying that when a decision was made to try

13 and break through, through the woods, you said that the first group

14 carried out a clearing of mines. Whose mines were those?

15 A. Those were Serbian mines. I don't know who laid them. I ...

16 Q. Are you saying that the Serbs laid minefields between your

17 villages?

18 A. Yes. In the woods. Not between the villages. When we started

19 walking through the woods, there were minefields there. When we set out

20 from Jaglici, it was only then that I saw and heard about the mines.

21 Somebody said, Watch out, there are mines in the fields.

22 Q. Thank you. Are you familiar with the actions of the

23 28th Division against the Serbian villages from the moment when

24 Srebrenica had been proclaimed a protected area until July 1995?

25 A. After it had become a protected area, I don't remember any action

Page 28526

1 being taken. Anyway, it's not clear to me.

2 Q. Thank you. But why, then, did the Serbs plant mines and

3 minefields around their villages?

4 A. Well, it's up to you to say. I don't know why they did it.

5 Q. On the 11th of July, did you have any combat contact with the VRS

6 in the area of Tursunovic's brigade or did you hear about the fall of

7 Srebrenica?

8 A. The whole day of the 11th of July, I was gathering hay. My

9 daughter came and asked me, What are you doing? People are leaving.

10 Srebrenica had fallen.

11 After I finished my work, I went home. I took some food with me

12 and I went out to let the cattle loose. I came across my brother-in-law.

13 I took my rucksack and I set off.

14 Q. Now, how did you decide to send your family to Potocari and that

15 you should go through the woods? Was that your choice or was that

16 decided by someone else?

17 A. A courier came who said that women, the old people, and the

18 children should go to the UNPROFOR base in Potocari because that was the

19 protected area. Those who were able-bodied should head for the woods and

20 it's up to them to see if they could make it or not.

21 Q. That was a courier from the brigade; right?

22 A. Yes, of course, from the brigade. It wasn't my decision.

23 Q. It wasn't recorded that the able-bodied should try to make a

24 breakthrough through the woods and they should see whether they would

25 succeed or not.

Page 28527

1 A. Well, there was no other option. I think that only nine or ten

2 people from my village went to Potocari.

3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I understand that it's difficult to

4 wait, but because both of you are speaking the same language, which is to

5 be translated by the interpreters, could you kindly put a pause before

6 you start answering the question, Mr. Witness.

7 Do you understand that, sir?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. At one point, were you yourself in two minds whether to head for

13 Potocari, or is it a fact that your back-pack remained on your friend's

14 horse and that you eventually decided to opt for a breakthrough after

15 all?

16 Can you please wait for the interpretation to be finished.

17 You can go ahead now.

18 A. When I parted from my family above Ravne Njive, I decided to head

19 for Potocari, because I was too old to go to the woods. But a friend of

20 mine came. We set off from Brestove Ravne [phoen]. My back-pack was

21 very heavy, and he decided to take it off me and put it on his horse, and

22 that's why I decided to follow my back-pack because I had food there and

23 I had some clothes there, and, therefore, I decided to head for Jaglici.

24 Q. Thank you. Would anyone from the brigade hold it against you if

25 you decided to go to Potocari rather than to stay with them?

Page 28528

1 Please wait for the interpretation.

2 MS. WEST: Objection.

3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, could you reformulate your question.

4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Did the courier leave it up to people to make their own decisions

6 whether to head for Potocari or to the forest, or was that an information

7 in the form of an order to gather all members of the brigade in one

8 place?

9 A. I don't know what the courier decided. Everyone made their own

10 decisions. If I didn't have this back-pack, and if I didn't head for --

11 and if I did go to Potocari, I wouldn't be here today. Therefore, I

12 decided to head for the forests.

13 Q. Thank you. When you came to Jaglici, did you all get together

14 with their respective brigades and were there any civilians with their

15 brigades once you gathered in Jaglici first?

16 A. When I arrived Jaglici, it was already night. There was a huge

17 crowd of people there, and I joined those with whom I was more friendly,

18 and I left Jaglici with them at 20 to 1.00. I asked Nusret Turkovic from

19 Vrsine what time it was and he told me it was 20 to 1.00, so that's how I

20 know when I set off.

21 Q. You say that you had a hunting rifle with you, that you gave to

22 someone later on.

23 A. Yes. I had my own hunting rifle. When I met my brother-in-law

24 in Jaglici, he found a -- the brother of a friend of mine. He took my

25 back-pack and I told him that I had been carrying it all the time. He

Page 28529

1 took the rifle from me, but he left me my back-pack with the food and the

2 clothes that we both had packed in it. And I never saw him again, nor

3 the rifle.

4 Q. Thank you. So if you arrived during the night, did you then line

5 up on the morning of the 12th?

6 A. Yes, we did line up I don't know how many times that morning in

7 Jaglici. There was no one from the command there, though. Neither

8 anyone from the municipality. People were just wandering around

9 randomly.

10 Q. Thank you. Did all members of all the brigades, pursuant to

11 instruction, head off to make a breakthrough through the forest or did

12 any of the brigades remain behind?

13 A. The majority of civilians who were not armed were the last to

14 leave Jaglici, and I was among them.

15 Q. Thank you. Is it true that at the head of the column there was a

16 reconnaissance party, those who were clearing mines, and

17 Zulfo Tursunovic?

18 A. I don't know what was going on at the head of the column. I was

19 at the rear. Had I been closer to the head, we -- I wouldn't have found

20 myself in dire straits.

21 Q. Who was in the command of the rear of the column?

22 And please wait for the interpretation to finish.

23 Go on.

24 A. As far as I can remember, nobody was in command. When we arrived

25 at Buljim, on a macadam road, there was a valley full of people and I

Page 28530

1 don't know what they were waiting for. They could not join up with the

2 column. That was the first time that I saw Golic.

3 Golic arrived and shouted at us, What are you waiting for? And

4 maybe 100 metres away somebody said, We cannot find where the column

5 went. And then he cursed his mother and his father and said, You will

6 see where the column is, and then he headed towards that person who said

7 that he lost the column. And he shouted from the left part of the

8 hilltop, he started cursing and asking what the people were waiting for.

9 And then the shooting started and nobody watched anybody else. Nobody

10 watched me or anybody else. There was shooting, big time.

11 Q. Was that the first time that the shooting started for the first

12 time? Who was it that opened fire?

13 A. That was our first ambush that we encountered near Buljim. That

14 was the first ambush.

15 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that before that, you had realised that

16 the Serbs could see you but that they didn't open fire until you reached

17 Buljim?

18 A. I don't know whether they saw us or not. I couldn't see what was

19 happening in the forest and who was hiding there. When we entered the

20 area near Buljim along the brook, the shooting started. The fire opened

21 and then we started walking. Me and a few of my acquaintances, we

22 started walking along the brook and I saw a lot of people who were either

23 wounded or dead on the -- on the ground. We started walking along the

24 brook. A neighbour caught up with me. He has a wife in Kamenica. He

25 asked me where we were. And he told us we were near Kamenica and he told

Page 28531

1 us to go left. And from that river, we turned into the wood on the left,

2 and the dark caught up with us and then shooting started again under a

3 hilltop. When Praga opened fire we could see a light above it, and the

4 shooting went on for a long time. We could hear the shots and the noise

5 and then we started walking towards the area where shots came from.

6 It was dark and then bursts of fire started again, we returned.

7 I -- I hid behind a bush. Nobody could target me from the side and I

8 thought that the others did the same. When I got -- stood up, there was

9 nobody there. And then I got started walking towards the same hilltop.

10 Another burst of fire and then another burst of fire and then I shouted

11 at them, Please don't shoot. I'm one of yours. And I asked him who was

12 there. And he said, Suad. And he said, Wait for me. And then I went up

13 there. There was a guy on the ground and he said, Sir, do you have

14 anything in your back-pack? And I said, I have some bread and some meat.

15 And he said, I have not eaten for three days. And I gave him food and

16 then he had that food, and then he thanked me for having had food and

17 then he said, Let's go.

18 And as we walked, we actually walked on the bodies of dead

19 people. People were crying from the brook and the group went there to

20 collect that person but nobody came back because there was a fire. And

21 then the morning broke above Kamenica. In the meantime I lost Suad. I

22 didn't even know that we were in a Kamenica. And then I recognised

23 Redzo Mehmedovic and I saw that people were being lined up. I was on the

24 right-hand side. I walked behind them and then I met another group from

25 the neighbouring village who asked me, Where are you going -- or, rather,

Page 28532

1 I asked them. And then they said that they were being lined up. I asked

2 if there were any more people there. And they said yes, there are more

3 people, and then we set out towards there. I found a lot of people that

4 I knew from Srebrenica.

5 I asked Amir Gabelic, who was a member of the SUP in Vlasenica

6 before the war, I asked him if he had seen Huso, and he told me that Huso

7 was alive. Everybody told me that Huso was alive but I couldn't find him

8 anywhere.

9 And we were there. There was a paramedic who was dressing the

10 wounds of those who were wounded. Then we were again encircled. They

11 started shooting at us. People scattered. The fire continued and they

12 started calling out to us, Surrender, surrender. Some people started

13 raising their hands with T-shirts in their hands and they encircled us

14 and told us to carry the wounded. And I carried Turkovic Mujo from

15 Masinje [phoen] and his brother was also wounded in the shoulder. We

16 were carrying them. I was not the only one who carried them, and we

17 carried them all the way to the river. We crossed the river and two

18 soldiers were standing there. They searched us. They searched our

19 pockets to see if we had any knives or bombs, and they asked us to open

20 our back-packs to see what is there. They tied our hands behind the

21 back. We crossed an asphalt road and we ended up in the meadow. I

22 didn't know what that was. We were seated in the meadow --

23 Q. Thank you. We'll come to that. But let's clarify something,

24 please.

25 In your statement, in your testimony on the 10th of April, 2000,

Page 28533

1 page 2478, you were examined by Mr. Cayley. And there, you said that the

2 Serbs were along the road and they could see you. But that there wasn't

3 any shooting until the point in time when you wanted to cross the road

4 beneath Buljim.

5 Is that correct what you said at the time?

6 A. Yes. There was no shooting for that period. But as to whether

7 they saw us or not, I don't know. I didn't see them. But when we were

8 under Buljim, that's when the shooting started.

9 Q. Thank you. Are you exaggerating with regard to the number of

10 those who were killed and wounded? How many men were wounded and killed?

11 A. By the stream?

12 Q. In the first ambush.

13 A. Well, sir, I don't know whether you would have managed in those

14 conditions to see how many were killed and how many wounded.

15 Q. Very well. So the order was issued by your command to carry the

16 wounded with you?

17 A. No. But your men surrounded us, they told us to take the wounded

18 with us. That was just above Kamenica.

19 Q. Thank you. But from the beginning, some men were killed. What

20 did you do with the wounded before you were surrounded and what did you

21 do with those who were killed?

22 A. No one carried away those who were wounded or dead beneath

23 Buljim. It was each man for himself.

24 Q. Very well. So you didn't even have any time to bury them?

25 A. Well, who would have buried them?

Page 28534

1 Q. What happened later? Who buried them?

2 A. Well, I don't know anything about that. As to whether they were

3 buried or whether the animals got to them and ate them, I don't know.

4 Q. When you were captured you were told to take the wounded and

5 those who had been killed with you?

6 A. Yes, we were told to take the wounded with us. I did that and

7 another group also Mujo Turkovic away. Nusret was also wounded and he

8 was taken across the river. We put him down by the river. He stayed

9 there. But I saw that Nusret went into a house, and from that point in

10 time onwards, he disappeared without trace.

11 Q. Thank you. You say you surrendered or were captured in the area

12 of Lolici?

13 A. I wasn't captured near Lolici. I was captured above Kamenica,

14 where I was surrounded. We were driven away to Lolici. I didn't know of

15 Kamenica or Lolici. Ramiz Muskic, who survived in Kravica, is the person

16 I asked about where we had been. He said in Lolici. I didn't know that

17 place. If I had known that place, I would have managed to flee somehow.

18 But I didn't know that place at all.

19 Q. Thank you. In part of your testimony you said that there was

20 some confusion. The Muslims also opened fire on each other and until

21 their names were revealed - that was on 16 January 1996, that's what you

22 stated in your statement to the Bosnian authorities - you said that it

23 was only when you heard certain names that you realised there had been

24 some confusion and then the shooting stopped; is that right?

25 A. I don't know. Well, there was the first ambush near Buljim and

Page 28535

1 then another ambush when a Praga weapon was used. So there was some

2 confusion. I don't know who was shooting at the time. I know that this

3 Praga weapon opened fire and that was where there were a lot of men who

4 were killed.

5 Q. You said that they stopped shooting at you when you said what

6 your name was and then you realised that they were your men?

7 A. Well, how would we have had a Praga weapon in our rear? How

8 would we have used it to open fire?

9 Q. Very well. A Praga is not important, but in your statement of

10 the 16th of January, page 3, you said there was some confusion and men

11 were shooting at each other and until the men revealed their names --

12 A. What sort of names?

13 Q. Was there any shooting from the group as a result of this

14 confusion?

15 A. All I know is that the first ambush had been laid by Buljim. The

16 second ambush in which men were killed -- well, I arrived there at night

17 and I was walking over the bodies there. But as to what happened there,

18 I do not know.

19 Q. Very well. Did you have some sort of ribbons to identify you?

20 Did you have anything to -- any markings to identify you?

21 A. What sort of markings? What sort of identification? Who would

22 have done that?

23 Q. Very well. Could you tell us some of the names of those who were

24 killed?

25 A. I need a break. A short break.

Page 28536

1 JUDGE KWON: We'll take a break for half an hour and resume at

2 quarter to 11.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.13 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

6 Sir, I take it now you are feeling better?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not a problem.

8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you very much.

9 Yes.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Did you know those people who were killed in your vicinity? Can

12 you give us a few names.

13 A. Below Buljim.

14 Q. Anywhere.

15 A. Well, how would I know them? All I was thinking about was how to

16 save my life. I wasn't thinking about whether someone was dead or alive.

17 Q. But there was someone you knew whose name was Senahid. I won't

18 mention his surname.

19 A. That was below the place where the second ambush was laid, behind

20 Kamenica, when I was with Suad. He was wearing something that I

21 recognised. He's the only person I recognised. I asked Suad for a light

22 or a match to see him more clearly. I never saw that Suad again.

23 Q. Thank you. Do you know what Senahid's father's name was?

24 A. Osman.

25 Q. Thank you. First ambush was by Buljim, the second one by

Page 28537

1 Kravica?

2 A. Well, it was above Kamenica somewhere. How am I to know what the

3 name of that area was?

4 Q. Thank you. Is Kamenica in the municipality of Bratunac or in the

5 municipality of Zvornik?

6 A. I wouldn't know for sure. I think it's in the municipality of

7 Bratunac. I'm not sure about Zvornik. But I'm more inclined to believe

8 that it is in the municipality of Bratunac.

9 Q. Thank you. At one place you saw that there were 20 people who

10 were killed. I'll tell you where that can be found. It was in the early

11 morning on the 13th.

12 I'll tell you where that can be found now. They ran down towards

13 the meadow where the grass was very high -- well, that's Kamenica, in

14 fact. That's the second ambush, isn't it?

15 A. I think that is the first ambush down by the stream. That's

16 where I saw about 20 people who had been killed. They had either been

17 wounded or killed. And at the place where there was the second ambush,

18 there were so many dead people that it was impossible to count them.

19 Q. Thank you. You saw the number who were killed from the 281st.

20 Did your unit have a lot of losses before July 1995?

21 A. There were a lot of civilian victims. My daughter was killed

22 from the shrapnel. My cattle was also killed. Two of my neighbours were

23 also killed. And in the neighbouring village, there was one woman who

24 was also killed. There were people who were killed in action. A few

25 people but not many. When Srebrenica fell, they went off in the

Page 28538

1 direction of Potocari and through the woods, and they sustained losses

2 there.

3 Q. Thank you. You also know something about weapons, don't you?

4 And if you saw a rifle close-up, you could identify it. If you saw such

5 a weapon from a distance, you wouldn't be able to say exactly what sort

6 of a rifle it was, but you could say that it was an automatic one.

7 A. Well, I'm familiar with the automatic rifles, the M48s and

8 hunting rifles. I was also familiar with these light machine-guns. The

9 34 light machine-gun. And the 53 light machine-gun. I have heard about

10 the 84 weapon but I never had it in my hands, and I've never seen such a

11 weapon either.

12 Q. Thank you. You said that you saw some Serbs, some Serbian

13 soldiers, who had these belts on them.

14 A. That was in Kravica, in Lolici. There were the regular troops.

15 They were wearing these belts, ammunition belts, and they all wore such

16 belts. From Lolici to Kravica, every 5 metres and on both sides, one

17 could see a soldier. So when we set out in a column from Lolici to

18 Kravica, he said we should advance four abreast in the column. There

19 were -- there was a 53 or an 84 weapon about 50 metres from me, so this

20 person had this machine-gun. And he had a German Shepherd dog.

21 Q. The men you saw near the road, they had automatic rifles?

22 A. Yes, they had automatic rifles. They were providing security for

23 the road to make sure that no one appeared suddenly. They had these

24 ammunition belts over their chests and automatic rifles and every 6 or

25 7 metres there was a soldier.

Page 28539

1 Q. I'm a little confused. You used clips for automatic rifles not

2 ammunition belts. How come they had these ammunition belts?

3 A. Well, on the whole, they had these ammunition belts. We were in

4 a column, four abreast, there was an UNPROFOR transport vehicle, armoured

5 vehicle to the right of us. We passed by it, they didn't react. I don't

6 know who was in it.

7 Q. Thank you. When you were taken prisoner, you were assembled on a

8 meadow. Is that the meadow that is called Sandici?

9 A. I don't know whether it was Sandici or Lolici. Ramzo Muskic said

10 that we were in Lolici. He knew the place. But there were others who

11 were in Sandici. We were taken to Kravica in a column, but there were

12 others who were transported by bus.

13 Q. Very well. So you say that there were between 4- and 500 of you

14 there?

15 A. I didn't count the number of people. I listened to those

16 whispering in front of me. They said there were about 2.000. But I

17 didn't count the -- the number of people there.

18 Q. Thank you. This morning in her summary, Ms. West from

19 Prosecution said that you heard that there were 2.000. Does that mean

20 that that wasn't the conclusion you drew? That's what you heard?

21 A. That's what I heard. I heard them whispering that number. There

22 was a teacher and there was a paramedic, and they were whispering and

23 saying that there were 2.000 people. But it never even crossed my mind

24 to count the people there. All I could do was think about myself.

25 Q. Very well. According to the information we have, no one was

Page 28540

1 assembled or detained in Lolici. No prisoners. Perhaps they just passed

2 through Lolici, but they were in Sandici. Did General Mladic address

3 you?

4 A. I know that Ramiz Muskic told me that. I didn't know Kravica,

5 Lolici or Sandici. Where were we, I asked. He said, In Lolici. And

6 General Mladic appeared there.

7 Q. Thank you. And that was about half past 1.00 or 2.00 in the

8 afternoon; is that right?

9 A. I didn't have a watch, but judging by the position of the sun, it

10 was between 1.00 and 2.00.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see D2253, please.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Is this the meadow; can you remember?

15 A. There were more people on the meadow where I was. I don't think

16 there are many people here.

17 Q. You can't see all of them. That's just some of them. But is

18 that the meadow?

19 A. I don't know. I can't even see some of the houses. There were

20 two houses. One was to the left; the other to the right. And to the

21 left and right, there was a parked tank. And on the tank to the right,

22 there was a PAM, which turned around twice. Someone cried out, Are we

23 going to let him pass through? The other one said, I don't know -- or,

24 rather, he said, Shall we fire?

25 But they didn't fire on us because this other person said, Don't

Page 28541

1 play around.

2 Q. That was the younger soldier. But the older soldier warned him

3 and told him not to fool around.

4 A. He said, Don't fool around, lower that down. I can't say that he

5 opened fire, but he just turned this barrel around twice. And he said,

6 Shall we let him off?

7 Q. Thank you. And while you were detained there, you recognised

8 some people who could have been from Visnjica or, rather, who were from

9 Visnjica. There was a Serb from Visnjica, isn't that right?

10 A. I did not recognise him. There was this fair-haired person and

11 there was someone whom they called Madjarevic. The Madjarevics lived in

12 Visnjica. They said, Search them. So they searched all of them. They

13 took everything, money, gold. I had 11 golden coins. I had 400 francs

14 and 300 German marks. I had ten golden coins. I had two necklaces that

15 belonged to my daughter. And the one with a yellow -- or ponytail took

16 the golden coins, and he asked the other person, What is this? And he

17 said, Put it in your pocket. Don't fool around. They took money from

18 everyone. When they found it, they took gold too. They searched someone

19 they knew. He pleaded with them and asked them to leave them

20 50 German marks for cigarettes. They said, You'll get your cigarettes.

21 And they took everything they found.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have P4308. Page 50.

24 We'll show this to the witness now.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 28542

1 Q. While waiting for this document, Witness, before General Mladic

2 appeared, was anyone taken away? Did lorries or buses of any kind arrive

3 to transport these vehicles [as interpreted]? Were you there when

4 General Mladic addressed you?

5 A. There were lorries and buses from Potocari. They set off from

6 Potocari with elderly people. Some of the buses passed by as well, and

7 we were there on the meadow, sitting down there.

8 Q. In your group, was anyone taken away before Mladic appeared or

9 were you all there when Mladic appeared?

10 A. There was only that lorry that went away, that one that was

11 supposed to go to a working organisation, and that's the lorry from which

12 they threw out spades. There was only one person whom I recognised,

13 Fadil Husejnovic.

14 Q. Have a look at the screen. You can see the buses and the meadow

15 here. Are you familiar with this area? Could this be the meadow we are

16 discussing?

17 A. Judging by what I see on the screen -- well, there was no forest

18 in the area where we were sitting. As for the asphalt road that links

19 Bratunac and Konjevic Polje, well, that was the first time I was in that

20 area.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see the mid -- the

23 middle of the screen so that the witness can see the detainees and the

24 houses.

25 Can we see the left part of the screen, one-third to the left.

Page 28543

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Can you see the houses there? And can you see the people across

3 the road? And on the other side, there's a house that was damaged?

4 A. I can't see a group of people here.

5 Q. Can you see these houses to the right, the two or three houses,

6 and then if have a look at the left part, you can see a group of people.

7 It looks like a forest, but these are people.

8 A. I can't find my bearings here when looking at the screen. Don't

9 ask me about the forest or the meadow. All I know is that Ramiz Muskic

10 said that the place was called Lolici.

11 Q. Was this road this far away from you when you saw the buses

12 transporting the civilians?

13 A. The road was near us. It wasn't very far away. And that

14 concerns those who were going from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje.

15 Q. Did Madjarevic show you -- was he hospitable, particularly

16 hospitable towards you because he was from Visnjica or did he act in a

17 professional way?

18 A. He didn't act provocatively, but the orders they had received was

19 to take money and gold. They searched the people. When they found

20 things they took it away -- they took them away. If they didn't find

21 anything, they couldn't take anything because there was nothing to take.

22 Q. Very well. We don't need this image on the screen anymore.

23 You said that when you set off you saw Serb civilians and they

24 weren't particularly interested in you and they didn't provoke you?

25 A. What do you mean? When we were on the road heading in the

Page 28544

1 direction of Kravica? I only saw those soldiers on that road.

2 Q. Thank you. And they behaved normally; isn't that right?

3 A. While we were going along the road, no one did anything to us.

4 Q. Thank you. Did you all walk from that meadow to Kravica or were

5 some transported there by bus?

6 A. All of us who were on the meadow advanced in a column.

7 Q. When did General Mladic come to the meadow?

8 A. I don't know what time it was. I didn't have a watch with me.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, you arrived in Kravica. And you say that at the

10 entrance to the co-operative building, you saw two buses, one closer, one

11 far away, and you had to squeeze between these two buses?

12 A. One bus was parked in front of the storehouse, and we had to pass

13 between the warehouse and the bus. There is an asphalt road there. The

14 bus was parked between the warehouse and the asphalt road, and we had to

15 pass between the bus and the warehouse. I went through the first door.

16 Then I went through the second door. I saw that everything was already

17 fully packed. You couldn't find a millimetre of free space. I tried to

18 go through to a corner. There were soldiers standing on both sides of

19 the door, and one of them told me, Sit down. I wanted to lean on the

20 wall because I had pain in my back.

21 When the last man entered the storehouse, he didn't have any room

22 to sit. This one swore at him and he kicked him in the lower back. He

23 said to the soldier, Well, you see, there's no place for me to sit. But

24 he just opened fire, and they were shooting for a long time. There was

25 darkness in the storehouse. People were screaming and crying and asking

Page 28545

1 for help, but who could help us?

2 I just sat close to a man called Salko Redzic of Vlasenica, and

3 we were lying down the whole time. At one point, Salko just shouted,

4 Brother, I am dead. I am killed. And he was hit in the chest with a lot

5 of bullets.

6 Once the shooting stopped, we could hear them outside the

7 storehouse chatting and joking.

8 I had a shirt and a jumper on me, and it was all bloodied, and

9 that's how I arrived in Zepa. I was all covered in blood. And people

10 told me, Keep that jumper. This is going to be a proof. But you know

11 how refugees suffered from the lack of clothing, and eventually this

12 jumper was thrown into the bin because somebody told me that it was not

13 possible to wash it.

14 Q. Thank you. I'm a little bit confused when you said that it was

15 already fully packed. In your statement given to the state security in

16 Tuzla, you said that the building was yellow and that it was completely

17 empty when you arrived.

18 A. That is not correct. I remember that clearly. I said in my

19 statement that it was fully packed up until the second door. And you may

20 say whatever you wish. I stand by what I saw and experienced. But, sir,

21 you and Mladic are guilty of this. You took over Srebrenica. Why didn't

22 you let people go away? Why did you have to kill them?

23 Q. Well, let's leave it. It's not to us.

24 A. Well, it's not up to me either.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the accused.

Page 28546

1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, microphone, please.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

3 Can we now have 1D5577.

4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. That's your statement given in 1995. October 1995, given in

6 Tuzla when your memory was the most fresh.

7 Now, can we have page 3; the penultimate paragraph.

8 JUDGE KWON: We'll not broadcast this.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 3 in English; and in Serbian,

10 it's the bottom of page 2. So number 3 in English.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to read to you the

12 following. [No interpretation].

13 [Interpretation] "We arrived in Kravica in the evening and they

14 took us into a building. I heard that was an agricultural warehouse.

15 The building was big with a yellow facade with a porter's lodge on the

16 left of the entrance to the warehouse. The building was completely

17 inside [as interpreted]. We went inside and we had to sit on the

18 concrete floor."

19 A. I don't know what time it was. I think it was between 4.00 and

20 5.00.

21 Q. Very well --

22 JUDGE KWON: Probably the transcript, line 15, should read: "The

23 building was completely empty inside."

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The building to which I came, I

25 said that this building was fully packed as far as the second door. And

Page 28547

1 I stand by that.

2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. But it says here --

4 A. You can say that there was no one in this building. You can say

5 as well that nobody was killed in that building.

6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Shall we collapse?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where are the people, then, if

8 nobody was killed? They were not killed by lightning in Potocari, or

9 thunder-storm. Anyone can see that, if they wish to go to Potocari.

10 JUDGE KWON: Shall we collapse the English version and zoom in

11 the part ...

12 First, let us -- we do not broadcast this document.

13 Do you see your signature at the bottom of this page, sir? Is

14 that your signature?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

16 JUDGE KWON: Why don't we show him the first page.

17 Do you also see your signature here?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it.

19 JUDGE KWON: And the last page.

20 So this must be your statement given to the authority in 1995.

21 Do you agree, sir?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree with what I had spoke

23 about.

24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't want to change anything,

Page 28548

1 and I don't want to add anything.

2 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let's go back to the page.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 2.

4 JUDGE KWON: Here, you said at the time -- it is written here

5 that the building was completely empty inside. Is that a mistake?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that very well. Not in

7 a single statement of mine did I say that the building was completely

8 empty. Up until the second door, the area was fully packed with people.

9 But who wrote this, I'm not interested in that.

10 You don't need witnesses to testify to what happened in Potocari.

11 There's a graveyard full of people in Potocari.

12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

13 Please continue.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Let's just go back for a moment to the bus that you mentioned.

16 Was there anyone on the bus at that point?

17 A. I didn't see that. Whether they brought anyone or not, all I saw

18 was the bus. Some people said that people had been driven by buses. I

19 know that I arrived there in a column.

20 Q. Thank you. Was that bus riddled with bullets whilst you were

21 passing by it?

22 A. Well, do you really think that I had time to look and check

23 whether it was damaged by -- by bullets?

24 Q. But it wasn't damaged.

25 A. Look, man, I don't know. I haven't seen anything. Would you

Page 28549

1 think about anything of that sort if you were in my shoes? I was only

2 concerned about what was -- going to happen to me, whether I would

3 survive or not.

4 Q. Thank you. Whilst you were in the building, were you able to

5 hear or did you hear any shooting around the building, across the small

6 river in the forest?

7 A. I don't know what was going on outside. I know what was

8 happening inside. However, what was happening in the forest or around

9 the road, I don't know anything about that. All I know is what was

10 happening is -- in the warehouse.

11 Q. But you said there were gun-shots outside?

12 A. Yes. But there were gun-shots aiming at the doors and the

13 windows. If you look now, would you be able to see what is happening

14 outside at the moment?

15 Q. Now, before this shooting at windows and doors, did you hear any

16 distant gun-shots around the warehouse?

17 A. Listen, I already told you about this so don't ask me what was

18 happening outside and in the surroundings.

19 Q. Very well.

20 A. Don't "very well" me. Don't ask me any questions -- and I can

21 only tell you what was happening inside the storehouse. I didn't see

22 what was going on outside the warehouse.

23 Q. Very well. Are you saying that there was fire from Zoljas and

24 Osas? Did you see the people firing from those weapons?

25 A. I don't know what kind of weapons were used. I already said, it

Page 28550

1 was pitch-dark in the warehouse. You couldn't see more than 6 metres away.

2 Q. And in this same statement, I think, you said that you had been

3 fired at from Zoljas and Osas.

4 A. Well, they fired from all sorts of weapons, although I didn't see

5 them. All I know is that they managed to kill people inside the warehouse.

6 Q. Page 2, paragraph 3, you say that fire came from Zoljas and Osas.

7 Are you withdrawing and recanting this statement?

8 A. I don't know what they fired from, whether Osas, Zoljas,

9 machine-guns, hand-grenades. All sorts of fire was coming. I just hid

10 in a corner and prayed to God.

11 Q. Did this shooting cause any fire inside the storehouse?

12 A. I didn't see any fires breaking out whilst I was there. I don't

13 know about later.

14 Q. (redacted)

15 (redacted) you said that 2.000 people had been killed but that

16 then, later on, when you spoke with the OTP, you said that was a mistake?

17 A. That's not what I said. All I said was that I heard that about

18 2.000 people were in Lolici. And among those who were brought to the

19 warehouse, I survived, and (redacted) also survived but he was later

20 killed in Baljkovica, some 70 days later, he stepped onto a mine. (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted). He jumped through the window and

24 managed to survive and reach Zepa. He spent the whole day lying under

25 the window wounded. And he said that nobody was paying any attention to

Page 28551

1 him because they took him for dead.

2 Q. Thank you. Were these bodies really covered by hay, as you had

3 heard someone saying that?

4 A. Whatever bodies were left there were not dragged away. Instead,

5 they were covered with hay, and then they set it on fire. And I was

6 thinking I don't want to be burned alive.

7 Q. During that night, was anyone dragging the bodies away?

8 A. They did it during day-time, until dusk. When it became dark,

9 they parked the loader and they said, Throw hay across and over the

10 bodies. I think I managed to escape on the night between the 14th and

11 the 15th, together with (redacted). There was a young lad and I

12 pleaded with him to agree to -- for me to join him, but he didn't want to

13 do that. (redacted) and I reached the asphalt road, and then on the

14 right-hand side, somebody said, Stop. But I threw myself onto the

15 ground, and when he shouted at me three times, Get up, get up, and get

16 up, I ran to the river, and I drank some water. (redacted) ran after

17 me but I couldn't communicate with him because he was deaf. And then

18 through a corn field, there was a path there. We reached the river. I

19 again went down to the river to cool myself and to drink some water. The

20 two of us sat under a tree, and then I heard a burst of fire coming from

21 the storehouse, and this one never appeared again.

22 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Just out of an abundance of caution,

23 Ms. West, if you could take a look whether we need a redaction on

24 line 3 -- on previous page.

25 Please continue.

Page 28554

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not me who makes things

2 longer than necessary. You are the one who asks me questions that

3 require long answers.

4 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will not argue with you, Mr. Karadzic.

5 You have five minutes.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Is it correct - and, please, provide as short answers as

9 possible - is it true that you stated that some people had survived the

10 shooting on the 13th in the evening and that they were killed on the

11 14th in the morning? Because on the 14th in the morning, fire was opened

12 again.

13 A. In the morning they asked if there are any survivors and if there

14 were, to come out and to be taken to hospital. A few of them did come

15 out. I don't know how many. I don't know who. I didn't see them. And

16 they were killed.

17 Q. How do you know that?

18 A. How do I know? Because fire was opened and from then on nobody

19 ever saw them again. If I had come out, maybe I would have gone missing

20 as well.

21 Q. How many people survived? How many actually responded on the

22 14th in the morning?

23 A. Sir, I did not count heads. I -- would you have counted head if

24 you were in my shoes at that time?

25 Q. Which asphalt did they wash and why?

Page 28555

1 A. I don't know. I suspect there was blood on the asphalt. I'm

2 sure that they didn't wash it because the weather was dry and the asphalt

3 was dry.

4 Q. Did they wash the asphalt on the street or the asphalt in

5 front --

6 A. In front of the warehouse. There was a tank full of water, and

7 they used the hose to wash the asphalt.

8 Q. You said that you spent 24 hours under the dead bodies?

9 A. Perhaps 24 hours, if not longer. And after midnight, when I

10 could no longer hear any voices in front of the warehouse, I started

11 moving. I stood up. And perhaps I spent an hour or so sitting down

12 because I had pins and needles in my legs. And in my arms as well.

13 Q. Thank you. That night, between the 14th and the 15th, you saw

14 the machinery and you say that you could even see the colour because the

15 weather was clear.

16 A. What colour?

17 Q. You said that the machinery was yellow; right?

18 A. I don't remember the colour of the machinery. I found myself

19 next to a loader. It was not cloudy. The sky was clear. I did not

20 observe the machinery. I didn't pay much attention to the machinery, but

21 I saw a soldier on the left side. I did not see the soldier on the right

22 side until the moment he actually stopped me.

23 Q. You said that in your statement provided on -- in 2003, on the

24 14th of July, on page 1248, where you say that the vehicles were yellow.

25 And you also said in open session when you were examined by Mr. Cayley on

Page 28556

1 the 10th of April, 2000, on page 2467, that the visibility was good at

2 the time because the sky was clear.

3 A. Yes, the sky was, indeed, clear. There was no moonlight. But as

4 for the colours, you can say whatever. That they were green or blue or

5 yellow. I was not interested in any of the colours. All I was

6 interested in was my own life and how to save myself.

7 Q. Thank you. And you managed to move from the warehouse. You

8 walked some 200 or 300 metres away. That's what you stated.

9 A. I don't know how far it was but then I heard three bursts of fire

10 near the warehouse and that person from Lolici also never reappeared

11 after that. He went missing forever.

12 Q. However, the sky was clear and then it started raining and you

13 hid --

14 A. Yes, it started raining during the night. We were still not

15 talking about rain. And when the rain started falling, we hid under a

16 tree. We were wet. The day broke. He was familiar with the terrain.

17 And if he had told me, Let's go to Kravica, I would have followed him

18 because I didn't know where I was. He was dragging me along for five

19 days. I found some persons from Bratunac, Kasim and Sacir, and they told

20 me, Let's go to Zepa. One man from Srebrenica told me that there is --

21 there's hope in Zepa because Zepa hadn't fallen. The ambushes are not

22 that strong and he said that he knew the road to Baljkovica. He didn't

23 want to Zepa, I didn't want to Baljkovica. I didn't know the road there,

24 and that's how I decided to join Sacir and Kasim, and I went in the

25 direction of Zepa.

Page 28557

1 Q. Thank you. For the benefit of the participants, in the statement

2 provided on 14 July 2003, on page 1226, you stated that you moved some

3 200 to 300 metres from the warehouse, and then you also stated that it

4 started raining. So you were not far from the warehouse and then it

5 started raining from clear skies.

6 A. Listen, I'm not God to say, Now it's going to rain, now it's

7 going to be a clear sky. And you're not God either. And I don't want to

8 pretend that I'm son of God either.

9 Q. Thank you. And then in the river you saw some dead bodies above

10 Jelah. You saw eight dead bodies. Jelah is a bit further from Kravica.

11 A. Yes, on the hilltop above Jelah. And those bodies were later

12 found. They were discovered.

13 Q. Thank you. From the 15th onwards, until the 26th of July or even

14 the 3rd of August, you hid in the woods, right?

15 A. I arrived Zepa on the 29th of July. Zepa fell. I was there

16 seven days. I knew the area pretty well. From Bijeli Voda to Vratar, I

17 knew the area very well. I returned again to Srebrenica, and until the

18 9th of September, I was hiding in the forest.

19 Q. And then you also visited your village?

20 A. Yes, I visited all the villages. I was looking for food because

21 I didn't have any food to eat.

22 Q. And then you went into the direction of Kladanj.

23 A. Yes, then we decided to go in the direction of Kladanj because

24 there was no food left in our villages, and some ten of us started

25 walking. One stayed behind in Zutica. There was nine of us. We didn't

Page 28558

1 know the road. We were wandering around like bovine. We started on the

2 9th, and on the 18th we arrived in Kladanj.

3 JUDGE KWON: Now, Mr. Karadzic, wrap up your cross-examination.

4 Your last question.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. While you were hiding in the woods, while you were visiting Zepa

7 and when you were walking from Zepa to Kladanj, did you encounter any

8 Serbs, either civilians or soldiers?

9 A. Yes. In the forest whose name I don't know, we hit an ambush,

10 but they didn't show us. They were patrolling a hilltop and they passed

11 by us. We crossed that hill. We came to a brook and we saw two dead

12 bodies in the brook. And from there, when we arrived at another hilltop,

13 we didn't know where we were. And we saw smoke coming out from some

14 bunkers.

15 And then it started raining again. We hid ourselves in a cave.

16 It was already dusk. We could hear them felling trees and making fire in

17 the bunkers. We decided to go through there, between two bunkers. We

18 came to a macadam road and we followed that road, and then we spotted a

19 torch-light in a bunker and one of our party stepped on a branch. That

20 branch broke and cracked, resembling the sound of a pistol, and they

21 opened fire at us from that bunker. We managed to squeeze past the

22 bunkers and we waited for day to break, and then we started walking down

23 a steep slope. We heard bursts of fire and individual bullets. There

24 was obviously a separation line there. We returned to the hilltop and

25 then I looked at another hilltop and I saw some trees there, and I

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1 thought maybe this could be a village.

2 We started walking towards that village, and we -- we could -- we

3 walked through that forest and we arrived at a brook. And on the birch

4 tree it says "Huso," that was carved in the tree. And there was an

5 arrow. So we followed that arrow. Although we suspected that this

6 might -- may have been a trap. And then we came to another brook and we

7 suspected that there was somebody there. We returned from that brook,

8 some 10 to 12 metres into -- into an area where we saw a bunker very

9 close by. We saw smoke, and that's where we were sitting for some time.

10 And then all of a sudden, we heard somebody shouting, Huso come here.

11 And then one of us jumped and said, If are you a Muslim, come here. And

12 he said, I am from Srebrenica. He came to us. He was a soldier but did

13 not have a uniform, and we asked him where he was from and he said he was

14 from Vlasenica and that his name was Meho. And then I asked him, If you

15 are from Vlasenica, do you know Salko Redzic? And he said that was a

16 very close neighbour and a close relative. I asked, Do you know anything

17 about Salko? And he said Salko got killed.

18 We came to their bunker. They give us coffee, they gave us

19 lunch, and then from there they took us to a place called Taric [phoen],

20 near Kladanj.

21 Q. So that was a Muslim bunker?

22 A. Yes, that was a Muslim bunker. And they asked where we had

23 crossed and we told him that we had crossed on the hilltop, and he told

24 us that that hilltop was called Sokolina. I had not known that before

25 that.