121130ED

Page 30695

1 Examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Major Mijatovic.

3 A. Good morning Mr. President.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have 1D6291 in e-court.

5 Translation is pending with this one as well.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You authored this document. Do you recall this document? Are

8 you able to identify it? It is your report to the Sarajevo-Romanija

9 Corps command?

10 A. I recall it. It is my document.

11 Q. Does it say the following, "At 8.30 and 11.00 p.m.," and in the

12 second paragraph "at 11.10 there were certain things taking place. Were

13 you always this precise when keeping track of events?

14 A. I was.

15 Q. Can you focus on the second paragraph and read it, please. There

16 is the mention of a sniper.

17 A. A sniper from Stojcevacki Siljak from the direction of Polje on

18 Nedzarici where at 11.10 he was wounded in his arm -- or the following

19 were wounded in their arm: A Govedarica born in 1973 and a shot arrived

20 from the area called government receipts a born in 1973 and a shot

21 arrived from the area called Pancirka where UNPROFOR is deployed. We did

22 not return fire except when engaging the Pancirka building and we did not

23 sustain any casualties. We have one wounded fighter.

24 Q. So who was it who fired from the Pancirka building where UNPROFOR

25 was?

Page 30696

1 A. Well, we presumed it was the Muslim side.

2 Q. Was it something unusual that they opened fire in close proximity

3 of UNPROFOR?

4 A. It was nothing out of the ordinary. It was standard practice.

5 They fired from positions in the vicinity of UNPROFOR. They had

6 105-millimetre guns across the building from the PTT Inzinjering where

7 the UNPROFOR headquarters were. They also had positions in underground

8 parking lots in Alipasino Polje, and from there they would pull out guns

9 and opened fire on the Serb Ilidza, Rajlovac, and Lukavica. When we

10 returned fire, UNPROFOR protested to our side why we were engaging areas

11 in their proximity. When they protested, we asked them, Why do you allow

12 them to be anywhere near you? We have to respond to their fire. We

13 cannot allow our children and civilians to be killed in Ilidza, because

14 that kind of shelling usually was targeting Ilidza where the school and

15 hospital were as well as outpatient clinics and health centres. Both

16 health centres in Ilidza were destroyed as a result of such shelling.

17 This was nothing extraordinary. Quite to the contrary, this was

18 routinely happening.

19 Q. Thank you, Major.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document

21 marked for identification pending translation.

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Shall we give the number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D6291 becomes Exhibit D2511,

24 Your Honours.

25 JUDGE KWON: To be marked for identification, yes.

Page 30697

1 Yes, continue. Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we have 1D8566

3 next. I believe this one has a translation. I kindly ask for it not to

4 be broadcast, because there is a name mentioned in the document, your

5 Excellencies, so as not to be in breach of your tu quoque decision. We

6 won't tender this document because it contains information of rapes of

7 Serb women. Rather, we will ask the major to read out a sentence for us.

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Major, is it correct that this man, the Muslim fighter whose name

10 is mentioned in the document, was in contact with you and finally

11 defected to the Serb side?

12 A. That is correct, Mr. President.

13 Q. Thank you. If we look at the end of paragraph 3, but do not

14 mention his name.

15 A. That person, between November of 1992 and December 1993, as a

16 fighter of the so-called Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, used a hand-held

17 mortar and an automatic rifle in the theatre of war around Sarajevo

18 having killed 13 soldiers of the VRS and a guard at Elektroprivreda and

19 Bristol. He also killed two Serb civilians across the Miljacka River.

20 Q. What is this Bristol?

21 A. It's a hotel, the Bristol Hotel in Novo Sarajevo, facing

22 Grbavica.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If the portion read out for the

25 transcript suffices, I seek to tender it. Otherwise, it is up to you to

Page 30698

1 decide.

2 JUDGE KWON: I don't see the need on your part to tender it as

3 you indicated.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now I would like to

5 show four brief video-clips from --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Five, interpreter's correction.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That I received late last night.

8 Some of them we haven't had the time to translate, and for the three of

9 these video-clips we have received translation from the Prosecution, but

10 for the other two we haven't. So I would appreciate being -- if we could

11 show 1D468 -- 6480. Could we play this video-clip from 2 minutes

12 14 seconds; from the beginning up until 2 minutes and 14 seconds. And I

13 believe that's the longest video-clip.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not have the exact

15 reference of where this video-clip is in the transcript.

16 JUDGE KWON: Before you play, Mr. Karadzic, I just received a

17 note from the interpreters that they do not have the exact reference.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Well, for the first two we

19 haven't received the translation, and we haven't managed to provide it

20 ourselves. That's for the first two. And for the other three, we have

21 them. So I would appreciate the --

22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, in cases where we do not have the

23 transcription, we know that we have difficulty hearing the translations.

24 So why don't we start with those portions with transcript. Let's see how

25 we can get on.

Page 30699

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. In that case could we

2 have 6482, please. From 7 minutes 13 seconds up until 8 minutes and

3 42 seconds. 7.13.

4 [Video-clip played]

5 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Europe is becoming more aware of

6 the fact that the real threat to its democracy, justice and freedom is

7 coming from the jihad which has been waged in this region for four years

8 now with its main protagonists being real war criminals and bloodthirsty

9 beasts like Izetbegovic, Ganic, Silajdzic, Delic, who have emerged from a

10 fundamentalist marriage, imposing unseen terror causing more than 15.000

11 Serbs to become victims only in the part of Sarajevo that is under

12 Turkish converts. They have lived through horrific atrocities

13 originating from the clouded minds of Juka Prazina, Bajramovic, Delic,

14 Dedic, and other fundamentalist criminals, all upon orders of the

15 monsters most responsible from the former Bosnia and Herzegovina. To

16 this day, screams can be heard in their prisons, especially in the

17 notorious Tarcin concentration camp and a number of prisons in Sarajevo,

18 Tuzla, Konjic, Visoko, and Zenica, all the while they have their mouths

19 full of lies about multi-ethnic, multi-religious Bosnia and the

20 democratic order of their Bosnia."

21 Interpreter's note: The last portion was missing.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. This suffices.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Major, sir, where did you get this bit of information that over

25 15.000 Serbs were victims in Sarajevo, and does this mean that they were

Page 30700

1 killed or were they victims in other ways too?

2 A. The information that we had at our disposal came from witness

3 statements, witnesses who fled Sarajevo and crossed over to our

4 territory, and this is information that intelligence services, both

5 military and civilian, gathered on the ground. And, Mr. President, this

6 will later be confirmed as true, but if you would like me to give a full

7 answer to your question, I would have to elaborate a bit.

8 Well, first what I said is that it became clear to everyone, and

9 up until now there was a deliberate cover-up --

10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mijatovic, I think you have answered the

11 question. I'm struggling to understand the relevance of this part to

12 your case. It may relate to the credibility. Please continue, yes.

13 We'll see. We'll find -- we'll find out at the end of this part of the

14 answer. We'll deal with the admission.

15 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

16 MS. EDGERTON: I'm really sorry, Your Honour, but we have no

17 LiveNote on this side of the courtroom, any of us. I don't know if

18 anybody else is similarly affected or afflicted.

19 JUDGE KWON: I don't see any problem from the Bench.

20 Mr. Robinson?

21 MR. ROBINSON: Ours is working.

22 JUDGE KWON: I take it the Registrar will arrange something for

23 you, Ms. Edgerton.

24 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 30701

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Then I won't ask you where you got the information that Prazina,

3 Bajramovic, Celo and others were criminals, but let me just ask this:

4 What you stated at this rally and what was happening there, what kind of

5 impact did this have on the morale among the civilians and military on

6 Ilidza?

7 A. Well, it certainly had an impact.

8 Q. What kind of impact? What were the effects?

9 A. Well, people understood, and this was just another confirmation,

10 that their superhuman fight, struggle, in Serbian Ilidza was justified.

11 Mr. President, when I say superhuman struggle let me explain it this way:

12 The Serbian Ilidza and the people who attended this rally fought the

13 entire war with an enemy that was six times stronger than it was. The

14 Serb Ilidza had the largest number of casualties or killed people in --

15 of all other Serbian municipalities. It had 932 killed people, about 500

16 dead civilians, and the effect was -- and the reason was -- the

17 consequences was that the Ilidza Brigade had four brigades on other side.

18 The enemy had four brigades, the 104th, 105th, 102nd and 104th

19 [as interpreted]. And let me just give you some information on one of

20 these brigades. The 104th Brigade had five heavy armoured personnel

21 carriers. It had five combat vehicles. It had five 152-howitzers. It

22 had five 105-millimetre howitzer. It had ten recoilless guns. All the

23 fighters had automatic weapons.

24 In other words, the Serbian Ilidza suffered the biggest losses of

25 all municipalities, both among the ranks and among civilians. And as a

Page 30702

1 result, although people knew throughout the war what the enemy had as its

2 intention, their intention was to cut through Serbian Ilidza and link up

3 with the Muslim forces in Central Bosnia, which would then make our

4 position far heavier, because there would be a hundred thousand so-called

5 members of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina who then be operational and

6 could be active throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina and to be far deadlier

7 and engage all the front lines where the Serbian people and the Serbian

8 fighters were.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 1D6483, please.

11 From 8 minutes 44 to 9 minutes 07.

12 [Video-clip played]

13 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Today the entire world knows that

14 when Alija Izetbegovic was trying to justify to his associates the

15 reasons why he had ordered the massacre against his people in the

16 Vase Miskina Street and Markale I and II, he responded that the Koran had

17 obliged them to do it, that no price was too high when it came to the

18 Islamic goal."

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. And in relation to this, the incidents that you mentioned, that

22 you said were caused by the Muslim side, did the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

23 investigate whether this was committed by someone on the Serb side and

24 what basis did you have for this claim that this was actually perpetrated

25 by them?

Page 30703

1 A. Well, the base for my claim is very specific, Mr. President. I

2 was fortunate to come by information, and because I hadn't had much time,

3 I didn't have a chance to present them to the Defence, but I will tell

4 you about it now so that you can see what I'm talking about.

5 One day military police came to the command and reported that

6 there was a man who had crossed over from Sarajevo to our side and who

7 wanted to talk to me. I asked him what his name was, and he said -- may

8 I mention his name, first and last, or do we have to move to private

9 session for his security, for his safety?

10 Q. Well, better skip his name, if you can. But if necessary, we can

11 ask to have -- to get the name from you.

12 A. Well, there is this video-clip, and it was broadcast on the

13 Radio Television of Republika Srpska during the war. This man was the

14 son of a late friend of mine. This late friend of mine was, I believe, a

15 Croat, but believe me, I'm not really sure, because we never asked who

16 was of what ethnicity. We were -- although we worked for 15 years, I had

17 no idea, and I'm not even sure to this day. And the name -- his first

18 and last name frequently appears both in the Serbian and the Croatian

19 people. So I never asked him what ethnicity he was. All I wanted -- all

20 I cared about was that someone was a good human being.

21 Now, his mother was Muslim. I knew that. And when late Pero

22 died - and I can use this name because it's very frequent - at the time I

23 was one of the directors in Feroelektro and I would go and speak at

24 funerals, and as you recall, there were both religious rites and civilian

25 rites, and what we would do at funerals, we would go and ask them what

Page 30704

1 type of rites they wanted.

2 So anyway, I went and -- to this funeral and spoke there, and

3 this young man, he remembered that. So he risked his life later on, went

4 through a minefield and came to see me, and he said to me, Well, you

5 know, I remember you very well from the funeral. My father said you were

6 a good man. You spoke so well. So I came to talk to you. Now, I knew

7 that he had come from a very difficult place, that there were a lot of

8 people of different ethnicity there, that it was very difficult to

9 survive, and he risked his life, came through the minefield. And I asked

10 him what I could do for him, and he said, Well, I would like to go to

11 Belgrade. I have a friend there. And if I don't manage to get a job

12 there, I would like to move on from there to one of the European

13 countries. So if you could help me with this.

14 Now, to make you understand what the atmosphere was, I offered

15 him coffee and something to eat at the time, and I told him --

16 Q. [No interpretation]

17 A. [No interpretation]

18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mijatovic, could you slow down in your speaking.

19 And put a pause, Mr. Karadzic. I'm not sure the interpretation has been

20 concluded. We had the interpretation until the part where you said:

21 "Now, to make you understand what the atmosphere was, I offered

22 him coffee and something to eat at the time ..."

23 Is that all that you said, or did you say --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I offered him coffee and food.

25 Yes.

Page 30705

1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's all.

3 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.

4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Could you please tell us what was the content of the information

6 that you received?

7 A. Well, he told me -- well, I asked him, What did you do all this

8 time there? As far as I can recall, it would have been two years that

9 had passed since the beginning of the war, so approximately it was at

10 that time. So I asked him, What have you done all this time and how did

11 you manage? And he said, Well, I am an audio technician, and I worked

12 on -- at Radio Sarajevo, and on the day of the diversion at

13 Vase Miskina Street when we arrived at work sometime before 7.00, we were

14 sent to the --

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not get the location.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vecna Vatra. Now, that is close to

17 Vase Miskina Street. He said I went there with a colleague of mine, a

18 journalist, and we waited there. It was rather cold. We were rather

19 nervous, and we agreed that I should go because the electroshop was there

20 and I recall even now that the manager of that shop was Avdo. Now I

21 asked him if I could use his phone to call from there because there were

22 no mobile phones at the time, so I called from that shop and I called the

23 editor of the radio station and asked him, How long are we supposed to

24 stay here and what are we waiting for, because there is no rally, there's

25 nothing going on, there is no one showing up, so what are we doing here?

Page 30706

1 We are just freezing. And this man answered to him, Well, just stay

2 there. It will happen very soon, and so don't protest too much. And if

3 you protest, there are lines for people like you. Now let me explain

4 what lines are, that's front lines where the fighting was.

5 I went up to my friend at Vecna Vatra and told him what the

6 answer of the editor was and at that point in time we heard the blast,

7 the sound of the blast and then we realised so this was our task that's

8 why we were there. We were supposed to be there on site so that we could

9 report immediately on what was going on, the suffering and the screams of

10 the people on the bread line. So this is what we learned about

11 Vase Miskina Street that incident.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know that the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

14 after these incidents or, rather, do you know whether they had

15 investigated this in order to establish whether it was perpetrated by the

16 Serb side?

17 A. Well, yes. And because of this propaganda of the enemy side

18 where they would always blame all the suffering on the Serbs both their

19 leadership and the public officials, they would always accuse the Serb

20 side of these things and blame it on the Serb side. And so in order to

21 make sure and be absolutely certain of what was happening you had to

22 conduct an investigation. So that's why it was conducted. And there was

23 absolutely no doubt whatsoever that it hadn't been done by the Serb side.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the third video-clip

Page 30707

1 now. That's 6484 from 9 minutes 18 to 9 minutes 45.

2 [Video-clip played]

3 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] For this brief period of time and

4 it was November 1995 when honourable and courageous journalists finally

5 decided to visit Serb Sarajevo. They saw our mothers in mourning, our

6 cemeteries, our destroyed and burned homes, our crippled children,

7 realising how shamelessly manipulated they had been up to then by Turkish

8 converts and their media."

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what this means that it was only in

11 November that journalists started coming to see you to find out the

12 truth?

13 A. In principle, the truth about the suffering of the Serb people,

14 Mr. President, had a very difficult path to traverse as is the case

15 today, Mr. President. What happened to the Serb people, these crimes

16 committed against us, preparations were carried out a lot before that,

17 before 1992. I'm just going to tell this distinguished Court and this

18 distinguished gathering.

19 It is indispensable for me to say the following as far as

20 suffering is concerned: Gentlemen, the brigade that I commanded, over

21 those four years lost over 460 fighters; 2.150 were wounded in my

22 brigade, which is highly characteristic. Judge, please, may I just

23 finish. I'm finishing right now. I'm saying --

24 JUDGE KWON: Could you try to answer the question. The question

25 was not about the sufferings themselves but why it was only in November

Page 30708

1 that journalists started coming to see you to find out the truth. Could

2 you answer the question.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've already said that these

4 people who had intended for the Serb people to suffer and to be

5 destroyed, well, there's a very strong link there because they were on

6 orders to by-pass us and therefore the truth could not reach the rest of

7 the world.

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Thank you. These journalists and crews that were in Sarajevo,

10 CNN, BBC, et cetera, did they go to Ilidza? Did they cross over? Did

11 they go to check the information they received?

12 A. Well, rather, one would have to say no, although there were

13 exceptions, truth to tell, but then they would also distort things. When

14 they'd get in contact with us, they would try to persuade us that they

15 had sent accurate reports as to what was happening on the ground and that

16 it was only in their newspaper and TV offices that the news were further

17 distorted.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 6480, please. Could we please have

19 that now, these two clips that do not have a translation. Two minutes

20 and half a minute. They are highly important for us and relevant.

21 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any objection, Ms. Edgerton, or

22 observation?

23 MS. EDGERTON: I don't quite know what to say, Your Honours.

24 This is something he only received last evening, after all. I'm sorry I

25 can't offer anything further.

Page 30709

1 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's see. Let us see how we got on

2 with it.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] From the beginning, so 6480, 1D6480

4 from the beginning until 2:14.

5 [Video-clip played]

6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, there's no point. We don't get any

7 interpretation.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I kindly ask the booth to

9 interpret as they interpret simultaneously when we are speaking.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It is too fast for

11 simultaneous interpretation and we have not been provided with a

12 transcript of what is being said in the original either, let alone the

13 translation.

14 JUDGE KWON: Your legal advisors heard the interpretation.

15 Consult with them how to proceed.

16 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, is it possible to play a small

17 portion of the recording, stop it and then continue it so that the

18 interpretation can be effected?

19 JUDGE KWON: Why don't we pause here and let's deal with the

20 three portions we've heard so far, then that may shed a light how to

21 proceed. I take it you are tendering those three portions.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE KWON: And can I hear from you, Ms. Edgerton, about those

24 three portions we have heard.

25 MS. EDGERTON: No objection to the three portions, Your Honour,

Page 30710

1 and in fact, I propose to use further portion during the

2 cross-examination. So it may be a matter that Your Honours -- where

3 Your Honours might want to deal with the whole video that these are drawn

4 from at the end of things.

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes. The Chamber has some difficulty in -- in

6 relation to certain parts of the -- the portions, in particular with

7 respect to their relevance, but if you are going to use some part of it

8 for whatever use -- I will consult my colleagues.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE KWON: We deal with the admissibility of these portions at

11 the end of this witness's evidence.

12 I have to ask interpreters whether the suggestion made by the

13 Defence is feasible.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We believe not. It is too

15 fast, and it would require consecutive interpretation, which is quite

16 different.

17 [Defence counsel confer]

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.

19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I think the thing to do would

20 be to try to take it -- make a transcript of this over the weekend and

21 play this portion with the witness on Monday if -- if it's important

22 enough for Dr. Karadzic to believe it's important enough to make the

23 witness stay, I think that's the best solution.

24 JUDGE KWON: Can he not elicit evidence from the witness without

25 having to rely on this video?

Page 30711

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, could we do this? I

2 mean it's not very long. It's two and a half minutes, 2 minutes,

3 40 seconds. Could we play it for the witness and then put questions to

4 him and we are going to deal with admissibility and the translation

5 later. So it would be for the witness to know what he is affirming or

6 denying.

7 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton, if we the Chamber or the -- if the

8 Chamber nor the Prosecution is not able to follow what he said in this

9 transcript what's the point of playing this at all?

10 MS. EDGERTON: Well, that's what I was about to say. I don't

11 know at all what's in the non-transcribed versions, and it's really just

12 another way of leading the witness. So it would seem to me if

13 Dr. Karadzic has information from this that he wishes to -- or based on

14 this that he wishes to adduce to the witness he can put that to the

15 witness and have him affirm it now.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm sorry that I have to say

17 this, that we received this exhibit that was there to begin with, if we

18 had received it on time, we would have translated all of it as the OTP

19 had translated everything that they were interested in. Fifteen

20 minutes -- 15 minutes was enough to have all of that translated. I'm not

21 criticising Madam Edgerton. It was somebody else who omitted to do this.

22 JUDGE KWON: If you find it very important, I heard the French

23 booth translated a bit, so we can repeat how many minutes it may take.

24 Let's try it. It's your time. It's up to you how to use your time. So

25 we'll try -- we can play many times and that's with the indulgence of the

Page 30712

1 translators. We can give it a try.

2 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

3 MS. EDGERTON: And just to make -- to be perfectly clear, this

4 was not there, nor was it in our possession, and we went actually to some

5 pretty extraordinary efforts to get this to the Defence counsel as

6 soon -- as soon as we received it, and that was -- and were able to have

7 access to the video and that was last evening.

8 JUDGE KWON: So we'll play first so the interpreters could hear

9 the general context and try again.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: That cannot be a full

11 accurate interpretation of the entire video.

12 JUDGE KWON: It should be -- we understand. Let's play it first.

13 [Video-clip played]

14 JUDGE KWON: How long do we need? Do you need all these

15 portions?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The first one is only 2:14, and the

17 other one is 30 seconds, and the first one is 2 minutes, 14 seconds, or,

18 actually, can we stop here and then I can put questions to the major.

19 JUDGE KWON: We didn't hear the interpretation.

20 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

21 MS. EDGERTON: Well, that's kind of the thing. We didn't hear

22 any interpretation, and I know my colleagues are very professional in

23 this and do their best, and to keep playing this like this is really

24 almost kind of effectively leading the witness.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I think what we have here are

Page 30713

1 the witness's words.

2 JUDGE KWON: No. Let us stop here, and if necessary, you call

3 the witness again next week -- be it next week or a month away. I think

4 that's the most efficient way at the moment.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. May I just put a

6 question?

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Is it correct that 800 shells fell in the civilian zone and that

9 six women were wounded?

10 JUDGE KWON: Leading. Leading question, Mr. Karadzic. But could

11 you ask when he interviewed this and when he made this speech, on what

12 occasion or -- those things.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. That speech, those first three that we played, when was that held

15 and under what conditions?

16 A. Mr. President, this speech was made at a rally after Dayton,

17 after the Dayton agreement. That is to say after the

18 21st of November, 1995, in Luzani. I think that that would be an answer

19 to your question, a specific answer to your question.

20 Q. Thank you. This settlement was defended, but you had to leave it

21 after Dayton?

22 A. It was defended like ten other municipalities of the Serb

23 Sarajevo, but we had to leave it, unfortunately, on the basis of the

24 decision reached in Dayton, all of these settlements and all of this,

25 also all of western Ilidza that we defended with our own blood. And I

Page 30714

1 think it would only be proper for me to speak about this in memory of

2 these people, the Serb municipality of Ilidza sustained the greatest

3 losses in that previous war in -- out of all of Republika Srpska I think

4 that if you look at all of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Ilidza had the highest

5 number of losses including military losses and civilians losses. Please

6 do not doubt this. Thirty-five mortars only, and also I mentioned the

7 howitzers and other weapons a moment ago. One of the brigades opposite

8 us, the 104th, had that, the one attacking from Sokolovic Kolonija,

9 Butmir and Hrasnica. So they had 70 artillery pieces and weapons. This

10 is 50 shells. That's already 700 shells.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness. I'm sorry about these two video-clips.

12 Probably we are going to call again when we have the translation. I just

13 wanted to ask you about the shelling of the waterworks -- or, rather,

14 electricity facilities. However, we'll do that when we receive the

15 translation. We'll do it later. Thank you. We have no further

16 questions.

17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Has this been admitted, these

19 three, these three where we had this translation?

20 JUDGE KWON: I told you we would deal with it after his evidence

21 is over in its entirety, after seeing the portion the Prosecution is

22 going to use, if any.

23 MS. EDGERTON: What time do Your Honours anticipate the first

24 break this morning?

25 JUDGE KWON: 12.30.

Page 30723

1 A. I see a document, but there's no signature by the colonel -- or

2 lieutenant-colonel, sorry.

3 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, I'm really very sorry, but it seems

4 like now I've completely lost -- or we've completely lost any ability to

5 see the documents in e-court.

6 JUDGE KWON: Could we change from Sanction to e-court.

7 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The booths cannot see it

9 either. Now we can see it.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

11 Q. You see the document on the screen in front of you, and it has

12 the name Vladimir Radojcic at the bottom. Vladimir Radojcic in 1993,

13 1994, and 1995 --

14 A. I can see that.

15 Q. -- was the Ilidza Brigade commander; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now this document dated 29 October 1993 responds to something

18 from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command reporting that the brigade has a

19 total of 30 sniper rifles, M-76 and M-48, one silencer and one passive

20 infrared device. So, actually, your knowledge as to what the brigade had

21 in terms of sniper rifles seems to be incorrect.

22 A. I can see what it says here. Let me tell you this: On the

23 31st of October, I wasn't in the brigade that day, and I was in no

24 position to see anything. Why? Because as it happened, the 31st

25 of October is the holiday of Saint Lucas, which is the patron saint of my

Page 30724

1 family and mine. If there were any possibilities for that, we did our

2 best to be at home that day, to be with our family. The same goes for

3 Christmas and the most important holidays. The 31st of October is the

4 day when I was definitely not in a position to see this document. That

5 is why I told you that I am personally unaware of it.

6 Q. But then you don't dispute that -- the accuracy of this document,

7 do you?

8 A. I cannot deny this. I am in no position to either confirm or

9 deny.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. Could that be a Prosecution exhibit,

11 please, Your Honours.

12 MR. ROBINSON: It's okay, yes.

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit it.

14 THE REGISTRAR: The number would be P6014, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE KWON: It's about time to take a break, but given that

16 we'll be concluding a bit earlier than usual, I'm asking the parties

17 about taking just half an hour break for today.

18 MS. EDGERTON: That's completely fine with me, Your Honour.

19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, we'd like that. Thank you.

20 JUDGE KWON: How about the interpreters?

21 THE INTERPRETER: That is fine, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE KWON: I take it that's fine with the court reporter.

23 Thank you. We'll have a break for 30 minutes and resume at 5 past 1.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 1.07 p.m.

Page 30725

1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.

2 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. I was wondering if I

3 might raise a very small scheduling issue very quickly, or I can do it at

4 the end of the session, as the Court wishes. I just wanted to note that.

5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Let's do that at the end of the session.

6 And as regards the debate we had in private session, I was of the opinion

7 that we can lift the confidentiality of the transcript from line 3 on

8 page 31, but if the parties have a different opinion, please let me know

9 before the end of today's session.

10 Yes, Ms. Edgerton. Please continue.

11 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

12 Q. Now, Mr. Mijatovic, we were on the subject of weapons held by

13 your brigade, and we just finished talking about sniper rifles. Do you

14 also agree that your brigade had howitzers in its possession?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. 105 and 155 millimetre?

17 A. As for 155s, I don't think we had any, but we definitely did have

18 105s.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpret's note: Could the witness approach

20 the microphone. We cannot hear him.

21 MS. EDGERTON:

22 Q. Mr. Mijatovic, the interpreters have asked if you could just

23 slide in a little more so you're closer to the microphone so the

24 interpreters can hear you.

25 A. That's fine.

Page 30726

1 Q. And 120-millimetre mortars?

2 A. We did.

3 Q. 76-millimetre guns?

4 A. We did.

5 Q. Let's just talk quickly about the numbers of each. How many

6 howitzers?

7 A. I know there were two as far as I recall. We had two 105s; we

8 had one ZiS, the recoilless gun; we had three tanks; three APCs; we had

9 several pieces of 122-millimetre [as interpreted] mortars and

10 62-millimetre mortars and 82-millimetre mortars.

11 Q. How many is several? Do you remember?

12 A. Definitely more than two 110-millimetre pieces [as interpreted].

13 Well, I'm not sure about the rest. I'm trying to recall. I didn't think

14 about that much. As for 82-millimetre pieces, we had at least seven or

15 eight. 60-millimetre pieces there were four or five. The number of

16 armoured vehicles, I believe I have shared that with you already. One

17 ZiS, which is 186-millimetre [as interpreted] gun. We had one.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It seems that some of the figures

19 in the transcript are wrong. It is not "186" but "76," and the mortar is

20 "120" rather than "122." The 122 piece is a different artillery piece.

21 Perhaps that can be clarified later in the transcript.

22 JUDGE KWON: Do you confirm that, Mr. Mijatovic?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. I've never heard of

24 176-millimetre calibre. The ZiS, as it was called, was an old -- which

25 was an old kind of weapon was called Jarac [phoen] in the previous war.

Page 30727

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 11, "110 millimetres," several

2 pieces, whereas it should have been mortar 120 millimetres.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no calibre 110. There is

4 only the 100 and --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down when citing

6 figures.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no 110. I can see it on

8 the screen as well.

9 MS. EDGERTON:

10 Q. Thank you. Now, in your evidence today you talked about how

11 Bosnian forces fired from UNPROFOR and pulled out guns from underground

12 parking lots in Alipasino Polje and you returned fire. Now, you lived in

13 Alipasino Polje yourself for a period of time; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you would agree with me that it's a densely populated

16 residential area with low and very high-rise apartment buildings;

17 correct?

18 A. Alipasino Polje mainly had high-rise buildings.

19 Q. Where civilians lived; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you marked in one of the associated exhibits with your

22 statement a map with military targets, D2499, and those were all in and

23 around the area where you used to live, weren't they?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So your evidence is that you fired at these objects that are

Page 30728

1 listed in paragraph 9, which are found within densely populated

2 residential area.

3 A. As it was interpreted to me, we fired at objects. When you say

4 an object in our language, one usually pictures a family house or an

5 apartment building. We never fired at such buildings where civilians

6 lived, because we had our orders, strict orders that we abided by. We

7 also abided by the international laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.

8 We never opened fire like that. I don't know if you --

9 Q. So --

10 A. You said objects.

11 Q. Mr. Mijatovic --

12 A. We never fired at objects where civilians lived.

13 Q. My question was related to the military targets you listed in

14 paragraph 9, and my question was you fired at these objects which you had

15 just agreed were in a residential area; correct?

16 A. We only engaged combat targets. We never engaged apartment

17 buildings or areas where there were civilians. That is out of the

18 question. So my answer was very clear. We only engaged targets from

19 where fire was opened against us. So we engaged targets that targeted

20 us, that killed us, only those targets on the other side, fire targets,

21 combat targets from which fire was opened on us.

22 Q. So --

23 A. And those are legitimate targets, you have to admit.

24 Q. Well, let's talk about this a little bit more. These targets

25 were in areas where civilians lived. So it's reasonable to expect

Page 30729

1 civilians to be in the immediate area of these targets; correct?

2 A. It is even more reasonable to expect a warring party, in other

3 words, the enemy side, not to open fire from civilian areas, because that

4 other side, the opposing side, will open fire on our targets and then

5 they expect that we would return fire.

6 Q. And you did.

7 A. I beg your -- we only engaged combat targets. In other words, we

8 returned fire. We only returned fire.

9 Q. Fire on --

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the previous reply, it did not

11 make into the transcript the words of the witness who said that they

12 sowed death amongst our ranks, and this is not something that made it

13 into the transcript.

14 JUDGE KWON: Do you confirm that, Mr. Mijatovic?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What the President said, yes.

16 JUDGE KWON: And as you have noted, if you speak so fast, your

17 words will be -- some part of your answer will -- will miss the

18 interpretation. Could you speak slowly as much as possible.

19 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

20 MS. EDGERTON:

21 Q. So let's go back to the question. You've given evidence today

22 that you returned fire on what you found to be military targets in areas

23 where civilians lived; correct?

24 A. No, no. I was very clear in my answer. We returned -- you say

25 fire, but we returned fire in response to fire, and we opened fire on

Page 30730

1 those areas from which fire was opened against us and killed our people,

2 our women, our men, because there was no other way of stopping the

3 killing. For instance, in the area where I was, in the Serbian Ilidza,

4 unless you returned fire there was no other way. You could not just

5 plead with someone, please don't open fire anymore. You killed 20 of my

6 men today. So you had to reply. You had to respond to the fire.

7 Q. For I think the fourth time now: You responded to the fire which

8 came from areas where civilians lived; correct?

9 A. To be --

10 Q. Mr. Mijatovic --

11 A. -- specific --

12 Q. -- this is a yes or no answer.

13 A. -- you on the map --

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure what the first word

15 that the witness said was.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My -- my definitive answer is we

17 did not open fire on areas where there were civilians. We only opened

18 fire and engaged targets from which fire was sowed against us. We never

19 fired at areas where there were civilians.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honour.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Mijatovic, at, I think, page 15 of today's evidence you

22 talked about how you returned fire when Bosnian forces pulled out guns

23 from underground parking lots in Alipasino Polje, and then at page 40,

24 you said you agreed that Alipasino Polje had mainly high-rise buildings

25 where civilians lived; correct?

Page 30731

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What did you return fire with, your mortars and artillery?

3 A. Well, more often than not mortars, small-calibre mortars, but

4 it's very important to say at this point, Madam Prosecutor, that

5 Alipasino Polje as a settlement in Sarajevo is a part where between

6 buildings there are areas of over 200 metres of open space, and the

7 Muslims would then use 155-millimetre howitzers, to place them there, and

8 UNPROFOR warned them not to do that, because in that way they would risk

9 being targeted, and I believe this is some seven -- this happened, for

10 instance, in areas where there were 70 to 100 metres from --

11 Q. [Overlapping speakers]

12 A. -- where the UNPROFOR was --

13 Q. [Overlapping speakers]

14 A. -- and also from between these buildings where --

15 Q. Let's stick with the questions; all right? You said you returned

16 fire with mortars. Would you agree with me that mortars are

17 antipersonnel weapons?

18 A. Well, yes, in principle.

19 Q. Now, let's look at a number of the targets that you listed here.

20 One of them is a police building. What kind of damage do you think a

21 small-calibre mortar would do to a building?

22 A. Well, a police station is a wartime military unit practically,

23 because the armed forces consist of the military and --

24 Q. [Overlapping speakers]

25 A. -- the police.

Page 30732

1 Q. You're not answering my question.

2 A. That is very clear. What do you mean I'm not answer your

3 question? If it is part of the enemy forces, if the police is part of

4 the enemy forces, if it is taken out onto the front line, if they open

5 fire if they themselves have mortars, for instance, that's very clear

6 that that, too, would be a legitimate target, so the police building

7 would be a legitimate military target --

8 Q. Let's go back --

9 A. -- because it too is engaged in combat.

10 Q. Let's go back to the question. I'm going to keep interrupting

11 you so long as you don't answer the question, Mr. Mijatovic. Would you

12 agree with me that a small-calibre mortar fired at a building is not

13 going to do any significant damage?

14 A. Well, I agree with you, but I don't know -- I don't understand

15 the question. That's the problem. I'm saying I don't exclude that

16 possibility. There were instances where we opened fire on the police

17 station. I don't know why you're giving this particular example, but I

18 assume that -- the assumption is that the police force is part of the

19 armed forces, and in this case the police officers would come to the

20 front line and open fire --

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to intervene here. The

22 witness said I can't recall that we opened fire, that we used

23 60-millimetre calibres to open fire on the police station, and I believe

24 this is hypothetical. The witness is asked to guess. The witness said I

25 can't recall that we opened fire from 60-millimetre weapons, and so how

Page 30733

1 could he know what kind of damage would be incurred on the building?

2 JUDGE KWON: The question was not whether police building was a

3 legitimate target or not.

4 Could you hear the -- listen to the question and answer -- answer

5 it, please.

6 Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.

7 MS. EDGERTON:

8 Q. So the question was whether you would agree with me that a

9 small-calibre mortar fired at a building isn't going to do any

10 significant damage.

11 A. Well, Mr. President had a good remark. This is a hypothetical

12 question, and, yes, it wouldn't cause a lot of damage. That is not at

13 issue.

14 JUDGE KWON: Let's find out --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not contestable.

16 JUDGE KWON: -- whether VRS shelled or fired upon these targets

17 listed in para 9 only in response or they fired shells on these. As far

18 as these legitimate targets are concerned, they fired on its own

19 initiative, and they fired only with mortars or something else. Then we

20 can proceed.

21 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

22 Q. So is it your evidence, then, from your statement, Mr. Mijatovic,

23 that your forces fired at the locations listed in paragraph 9?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the

25 statement in the Serbian language? If he don't have it, I have a copy

Page 30734

1 here.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Could I --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have it.

4 MS. EDGERTON: List those locations. Thank you.

5 Q. Now, you've given evidence --

6 JUDGE KWON: Shall we upload 1D8564. Yes, please continue,

7 Ms. Edgerton.

8 MS. EDGERTON:

9 Q. So it's your evidence that your forces shelled the police

10 building, the Jusuf Dzonlic Barracks, the TAM spare parts warehouse,

11 underground shelters in the area of Medjunarodnog Prijateljstva square

12 near the PTT, the Gras garages near the geodesic institute, the wire

13 factory --

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's not correct. Can we have a

15 reference? Where is it that the witness said that they opened fire at

16 this? This paragraph, paragraph 9, relates to the identification of

17 targets, not areas where they opened fire at.

18 MS. EDGERTON: Could I just get to the --

19 JUDGE KWON: No, target maybe means they fired at it and then the

20 Prosecution is fairly, legitimate to put such questions. It is for the

21 witness to answer.

22 So do you remember this map that you marked, Mr. Mijatovic? Do

23 you see the marked map in front of you?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, but, Mr. President --

25 JUDGE KWON: My question --

Page 30735

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- it is not the same to open

2 fire --

3 JUDGE KWON: My question was whether you see this map. So you

4 see it.

5 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation] [Overlapping speakers]

6 JUDGE KWON: The question was -- from Ms. Edgerton was that

7 whether you opened fire at these places.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The area, that's a wider term.

9 When I -- or, rather, the Prosecutor, when she says garages, that could

10 imply underground garages, 100 or 1.000 of them. Here, specifically,

11 there's one garage in a very specific place where guns were deployed,

12 115 howitzer -- howitzers, and they opened fire from there at us.

13 JUDGE KWON: Please, listen to the question. I asked you -- what

14 Ms. Edgerton asked was whether you fired these marked places. You marked

15 the places. Do you see that?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But only when fire was opened at us

17 from those places. We didn't just open fire for no reason at all. Only

18 when there was fire opened at us from those places we responded. That's

19 specific. I can't be more specific.

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.

21 MS. EDGERTON:

22 Q. So you opened fire -- so when you fired on these places, you

23 fired with -- your evidence is you fired with mortars and artillery, but

24 usually small-calibre mortars; correct?

25 A. Well, I never even meant -- mentioned artillery, to be more

Page 30736

1 specific. It could be that there were such instances, but my reply was

2 that we only returned fire when fire was opened at us. That's it.

3 Q. When you fired -- I'll ask the question a second time. When you

4 fired on these places, you fired -- your evidence is that you fired with

5 mortars, possibly with artillery, but usually with small-calibre mortars;

6 correct?

7 A. The places shown, I can't even remember that artillery was used,

8 but I cannot exclude it altogether. We did use mortars, and I have to

9 repeat, we only returned fire when fire was opened at us. In other

10 words, when there was fire opened from those places at us, we then

11 returned fire with fire.

12 Q. What calibre of mortars did you return the fire with?

13 A. Well, as far as I can recall, we used the 60 and the 82 calibres.

14 Q. So this -- this Chamber has actually heard evidence that mortars

15 fired at the buildings in and around Sarajevo would have little to no

16 effect because of the construction of the buildings and the size of the

17 mortars, which were either for the most part around 82 millimetres.

18 MS. EDGERTON: And for the record, Your Honours, that's

19 General Fraser at T8009 to 8010.

20 Q. So now knowing that, Mr. Mijatovic, I put it to you that at its

21 very best, this kind of fire was only harassment fire.

22 A. Well, it was not, in the final analysis, our goal to cause losses

23 among the enemy lines. It was really to harass them so that they would

24 stop opening fire at us, so that they would stop sowing death on our side

25 that we were defending.

Page 30737

1 Q. And you knew, because you've given evidence to this effect, that

2 there were civilians in the area. You've said that the Alipasino Polje

3 area was a civilian area; correct?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. You've agreed that mortars are antipersonnel weapons, so given

6 that, given the risk of the spread of shrapnel when you use a mortar, and

7 given that Alipasino Polje was a civilian area, you would actually expect

8 that there was a significant risk, a high risk, that there would be

9 civilian casualties from using mortars on those areas, wouldn't you?

10 A. Well, no, because our observers who were observing and reporting

11 to us where the fire was coming from, they were in a position to see that

12 there were no civilians around the weapon that is firing shells at our

13 side and killing people on the Serb Ilidza. So observers reported to us

14 and said that within a diameter of about 200 metres everything was clear

15 except for the weapon that was firing at our side. So that was always a

16 way to avoid collateral damage that was referred to in previous trials.

17 So that was a very effective way of protecting civilians --

18 Q. All right --

19 A. -- and being sure and convinced of -- yes?

20 Q. Now, before meeting Dr. Karadzic this week, you must have met

21 with a representative of his Defence team to give the first draft of your

22 statement, didn't you?

23 A. I just had this one meeting with the gentleman who is present

24 here, Mr. Marko - he's a lawyer - Sladojevic. We just meant once and it

25 was a relatively short meeting, I can say that.

Page 30738

1 Q. And you didn't tell him then that you had some military observers

2 available to our brigade, did you? Yes or no?

3 A. Well, I did say that to Mr. Marko, and why it's not in the

4 record, probably because time was so short, but I did say that. He's

5 here, so let him say whether that is right or not right, because I even

6 explained to him where the observers were at several locations, and I'm

7 surprised that that didn't make it into that record or statement.

8 Because we did --

9 Q. And then --

10 A. Madam -- Madam Prosecutor, I beg your pardon. We did have our

11 observers at several locations. That's for sure.

12 Q. And then after doing the first draft of your statement, you went

13 out -- you met with Mr. Sladojevic again and you went out to the gaol and

14 you met with Dr. Karadzic, and you didn't tell him about the observers

15 then, did you? Because if you had, it would have been in your statement.

16 A. I'm sorry, but you're not right. I did say then when I was with

17 Mr. Karadzic, the President, I did say about these observers. Well, you

18 see, many things can be said. I will just tell you a detail from my

19 biography. I lived through clinical death myself. That is a major

20 thing, Madam Prosecutor, and I even omitted to mention that, and that is

21 something that is important for anyone. Do you understand that?

22 Clinical death in --

23 Q. Mr. Mijatovic --

24 A. -- in a war, in wartime. Let me just say this.

25 Q. And you just talked, you just -- you just mentioned -- actually,

Page 30739

1 if I could have your indulgence for a second.

2 A. I do apologise. May I just --

3 Q. No. Thank you. You just mentioned other trials in this Tribunal

4 dealing -- you just mentioned other trials in this Tribunal on --

5 actually, I'll quote it to you. You said:

6 "So reported to us," at page 50, line 12, "So reported to us and

7 said within a diameter of 200 metres everything was clear except for the

8 weapon that was firing on our side, so that was always a way to avoid

9 collateral damage that was referred to in previous trials."

10 What previous trials are you talking about?

11 A. I meant specifically when I attended as a witness at

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 Remember we talked about Poljanica before below Igman and we --

15 JUDGE KWON: We understood you and, if necessary, Mr. Karadzic

16 will take that up that issue in his re-examination, but at this moment

17 the question about a diameter of 200 metres and in what case. Please

18 continue, Ms. Edgerton.

19 MS. EDGERTON:

20 Q. Now, I'll put it to you, actually, Mr. Mijatovic, that the

21 200-metre diameter was actually not a consideration at all in --

22 MS. EDGERTON: Actually, I hesitate for a moment, Your Honour,

23 and before I misspeak, can we go back and have a redaction of page 52,

24 lines 8 and 9.

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

Page 30740

1 MS. EDGERTON:

2 Q. And, Mr. Witness, I put it to you that the diameter of 200 metres

3 was a consideration not dealt with in any other trial in this Tribunal

4 until the case against Generals Gotovina and Markac. That's the trial

5 you were referring to, isn't it?

6 A. Well, I had the feeling that it was mentioned in Mr. Galic's case

7 and the case of other officers. That's my feeling. I mean, these

8 200 metres. But, well, I don't see what it is that is so important here,

9 that you insist on that so much. Sorry about that. I don't understand.

10 I mean, I don't know how to put it in a different way --

11 Q. Then we'll move on.

12 A. -- I really don't see what it is you're asking me.

13 Q. Then we'll move on. Let's go further down the list of military

14 targets. In paragraphs 34 to 37 of your statement, you gave an

15 additional list of targets following your interview with Dr. Karadzic at

16 the gaol.

17 Now, did you add this list of targets in those paragraphs because

18 you fired on them?

19 A. I don't have anything before me, so I cannot see what it is that

20 you're speaking about now. I don't have anything on the screen,

21 absolutely nothing.

22 JUDGE KWON: Did you say that you have a copy of your statement?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.

24 JUDGE KWON: In hard copy Mr. --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't have a copy of my

Page 30741

1 statement, and I don't have anything on these screens, so I don't have a

2 printed document, and I don't have it here, and I don't know what it is

3 that is being said.

4 JUDGE KWON: When we have our usher back, you will have a hard

5 copy of your statement.

6 THE ACCUSED: I can offer it.

7 JUDGE KWON: Let's wait.

8 MS. EDGERTON: With your indulgence in the meanwhile for a

9 moment.

10 [Prosecution counsel confer]

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

12 MS. EDGERTON:

13 Q. So how about, Mr. Mijatovic, you turn over to page 6 of your

14 statement and have a look at paragraphs 34 and onward. I want to know if

15 you added those targets to your statement because you fired on them.

16 A. I'm sorry, could you please repeat the question, because I don't

17 seem to understand the question.

18 Q. Did you list all these places in paragraphs 34, 35, 36, 37 of

19 your statement because your forces fired on them?

20 A. Well, I mentioned them because that's where they fired from

21 against us. I'm not saying that we fired at them. I mention here from

22 where we were attacked, from where our defence positions were attacked.

23 Q. So did you mention these places because they were suggested to

24 you during your meeting with Dr. Karadzic?

25 A. They were not suggested to me. Rather, when I said during this

Page 30742

1 conversation, when I spoke about all the casualties that the

2 Ilidza Brigade had had, I don't know if you were following, but it was

3 460 men who were killed, which is a high percentage.

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the number.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 2.150 were wounded, many of them

6 seriously wounded and therefore never returned to normal life or to the

7 unit itself, and then if you look at what the enemy forces were, then I

8 explained which forces these were, the 105th, the 101st, 102nd and

9 104th Brigade and they had all these weapons and my intention was

10 obviously to indicate --

11 Q. [Overlapping speakers] [Previous translation continues] ...

12 A. -- allow me, please, Madam Prosecutor to indicate that -- which

13 brigades these were the equivalent is 15- or 16.000 men against our --

14 Q. So?

15 A. -- our 3.000 defenders who were there.

16 Q. Mr. Mijatovic, the question I asked you was did you mention these

17 places because they were suggested to you and your answer was they

18 weren't suggested to me. Can we leave it at that and move on?

19 So your evidence is you didn't fire -- your forces didn't fire at

20 any of these locations that you mention in paragraphs 34 to 37; correct?

21 A. That is not correct.

22 Q. That is not correct. So you did fire at these locations.

23 A. The locations from where these brigades fired at us. So it was

24 only firing positions and a firing position is a place from which a

25 weapon fires at us. So it was only that weapon that we opened fire at,

Page 30743

1 the weapon that fired at us. So that would be correct.

2 Q. All right. So these locations that you list here are in, as I

3 can see, areas that include Dobrinja, Aerodromsko Naselje, Hrasnica and

4 Butmir. You would agree with me that these are all locations where

5 civilians live, aren't they?

6 A. Civilians did not live on the actual front line. It was only

7 attackers who were there only, attackers from the enemy side, the enemy

8 that was attacking us.

9 Q. Mr. Mijatovic, is Dobrinja a civilian area; yes or no?

10 A. For the most part, yes, but civilians did not live at where the

11 lines of combat were.

12 Q. Aerodromsko Naselje is that a civilian area, yes or no?

13 A. This should be clear to you. Partly it was militarised and

14 partly it was civilian, and other settlements near the front line were of

15 the same nature. Near the front line it was military and further afield

16 it was civilian.

17 Q. Now, Hrasnica, was that a civilian area, yes or no?

18 A. To a large part, militaristic, military, and all of those parts

19 that bordered Hrasnica and other civilian areas were military but then

20 there were other areas that were civilian.

21 Q. So you when you returned fire on locations that fired on you in

22 these areas, did you do that with your mortars and artillery?

23 A. Well, most often it was small weapons that were involved in

24 combat. There were also situations when at the lines of combat, I mean

25 in these firing positions, too, because you know firing positions,

Page 30744

1 whatever you wish to call them, but these firing positions from where

2 fire was opened at us and we responded with fire. So we responded with

3 fire to their fire, fire coming from their weaponry.

4 Q. So is your answer that you responded with mortars and with

5 artillery or not?

6 A. Their artillery, their mortars, their fire coming from such

7 weaponry we responded with corresponding weapons and pieces.

8 Q. So --

9 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honours.

10 Q. Similar question as before. Given the nature of mortars as

11 antipersonnel weapons with a high risk of shrapnel spread from their

12 impact, do you accept there would be a high risk of civilian casualties

13 when you respond with fire in these areas we've been talking about?

14 A. I do not accept that, because we always took care of this, that

15 observers should inform us whether there were civilians around there, and

16 then we would fire at their mortars using our mortars or we would fire at

17 their artillery using our artillery.

18 Q. Well, let's try this then. So based on everything you've said up

19 to now, let me put something to you. Is it your position that it would

20 be inappropriate in Sarajevo to fire mortars or artillery at a military

21 object in a civilian area without direct observation because you've

22 talked about that and without confirmation that there were no civilians

23 within a 200-metre radius?

24 A. One could not rely on that as a rule if one is in a position

25 where the enemy uses all available forces to attack our positions and our

Page 30745

1 lines with the aim of taking over Ilidza and carry out a massacre by

2 killing the population or driving it away. Or, for example, what was

3 taking place? Our observers were killed by the enemy side, by their --

4 with their artillery, and we can see where the fire is coming from, and

5 we know where it's coming from, Madam Prosecutor. Well, it would have

6 been irresponsible not to return fire with fire.

7 Q. I want to move on to another area now. You talked about

8 air-bombs in your statement, and it seems like you know something about

9 them, so I want to put the following propositions to you: First of all,

10 do you agree with me that an air-bomb is a very powerful weapon with --

11 that carries a minimum of a hundred kilos of explosives?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In some cases even more, up to 250.

14 A. I don't know how it seems to you, because there were thousands of

15 tasks in such situations in the war --

16 Q. [Overlapping speakers] Mr. Mijatovic --

17 A. -- so there were problems --

18 Q. [Overlapping speakers]

19 A. -- I don't know much about that.

20 Q. That was a yes-or-no kind of question. Let's move on. So with

21 hundred kilos -- a hundred kilos of explosives, do you agree with me that

22 the potential destructive power of an air-bomb is sizable, massive, in

23 fact?

24 A. That is not in dispute.

25 Q. Now, as Chief of Staff of the Ilidza Brigade in 1994 and 1995,

Page 30746

1 you must have ordered the use of these weapons.

2 A. I did not order their use. There was subordination in place.

3 There were people above me. I didn't. I claim that with full

4 responsibility. I did not order that such weapons be used.

5 Q. Well, if you know so much about them, you must have taken part in

6 the testing of these weapons then, didn't you?

7 A. Not specifically.

8 Q. You must have seen them firing?

9 A. On one occasion, yes. Sorry, if I may. If I may clarify

10 something, whether I was engaged in testing. If that means practical

11 testing, I did not take part in that. There were certain suggestions

12 along at that line, but I was never engaged in the practical testing.

13 Q. So you weren't engaged in the testing. You only saw it being

14 fired on one occasion. Did you ever see it hitting a target?

15 A. I did, twice. Three times. Once when we targeted a

16 refrigeration facility; another time when it did not explode in Hrasnica.

17 It landed where their mortars were and 120- and 82-millimetre weapons;

18 and once when it fell where the tanks were in Ogrev. So thrice in total.

19 We had five air-bombs. So these were three. Two were fired at the

20 refrigeration facility and it landed just short of it, and the other two

21 were used at Bjelasnica against the enemy side, in the forest, if I may

22 say so.

23 Q. Now, you said --

24 A. So I was aware of five, and -- according to my knowledge, and I

25 think it was a realistic assessment. There were five air-bombs in total,

Page 30747

1 and three were used on Ilidza and two on Bjelasnica at the front line.

2 MS. EDGERTON: So let's have a look at P5943, which is a VRS

3 Main Staff report to the president, dated 7 April 1995. And I'd like to

4 go to page 5 of the English, paragraph 3(B) and B/C/S page 3, almost at

5 the bottom of the page.

6 Q. So it seems to me that you might have missed one, Mr. Mijatovic,

7 because this document reports to the president that on this day the enemy

8 activity was adequately responded to whereby a 250-kilo air-bomb was

9 launched on the centre of Hrasnica.

10 A. Sorry, where do you find that?

11 Q. On your copy, go down to paragraph 3 --

12 JUDGE KWON: Top --

13 MS. EDGERTON: 3B.

14 JUDGE KWON: Top of the page, 3B.

15 MS. EDGERTON: On his copy it would be almost at the bottom of

16 the page, paragraph 3(B), just above paragraph 4.

17 Q. And the heading of (B) says: "Situation in the corps."

18 A. I see it now. So it was adequately responded to enemy action.

19 Is that it?

20 Q. That's right. So it seems like there's an additional incident

21 that you didn't know about.

22 A. No. Who fired it? It says on the centre of Hrasnica. The

23 centre should be a very small part. The forward part where the lines

24 were and the assets I mentioned. I don't have the centre in my version.

25 Rather, a term is used which depicts extremely small areas in enemy front

Page 30748

1 lines.

2 Q. Maybe -- maybe --

3 A. It's actually a cent, which is only 100th of a metre, meaning

4 centimetre. If we go by that, that would be in the centre of Hrasnica,

5 very close to the lines. That's the notion of centimetre.

6 Q. Why don't you go over and have a look at paragraph 25 of your

7 statement, Mr. Mijatovic?

8 A. Incident G10, is that it?

9 Q. That's right.

10 A. [No interpretation]

11 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is reading too fast interpreters

12 note.

13 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

14 MS. EDGERTON:

15 Q. So, Mr. Mijatovic, are -- Mr. Mijatovic, you actually were well

16 aware, according to your statement, of the incident in Hrasnica?

17 A. We weren't -- this says nothing about whether I was informed

18 about the incident in Hrasnica. This only goes to my knowledge as to the

19 deployment of enemy forces. If I know that the US sixth fleet is in the

20 Adriatic, it doesn't mean that I know where they will engage tomorrow.

21 Q. Oh, so in your statement, then, where you talk about the

22 deployment of enemy forces in Hrasnica, are we to understand that, to

23 your mind, a 250-kilo air-bomb was an appropriate weapon to use against

24 120-millimetre mortar nest?

25 A. That's not it. It wasn't one mortar as it was interpreted to me.

Page 30749

1 When you have a mortar nest, there are several, two, three, up to five

2 mortars within a 50-metre radius. A mortar nest always has more than one

3 mortar.

4 Q. That wasn't my question. My question was whether we're to

5 understand that, to your mind, a 250-kilo air-bomb was an appropriate

6 weapon to use against 120-millimetre mortar nest. Yes or no?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was not allowed to elicit the

8 witness's opinion. Why should it be allowed to the Prosecution? Perhaps

9 we should hear first what the witness knows rather than thinks.

10 JUDGE KWON: No, it's a totally inappropriate intervention at

11 this time.

12 Please answer the question, Mr. Mijatovic.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since obviously in a rush many

14 things were omitted here, I don't see the tanks mentioned here, which

15 were mentioned as part of the 104th Brigade, and that was in the area of

16 Hrasnica. No one's talking about the 150- and 105-millimetre howitzers

17 in Hrasnica. Rather, things were being suggested to me. The only thing

18 you didn't ask me whether there was a pistol there which we targeted by

19 using an air-bomb.

20 MS. EDGERTON:

21 Q. So still on the subject of air-bombs but in another vein, if you

22 know something about them, you must know that they're powered by rocket

23 fuel; correct?

24 A. I know approximately that it uses some kind of rocket fuel, but

25 I'm not familiar with any details. What you said is the extent of my

Page 30750

1 knowledge.

2 Q. And when the fuel runs out, the rocket -- the bomb drops. Did

3 you know that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So on what basis, then, can you, as you do in paragraph 18,

6 knowing that talk about the proper function of air-bombs and the need for

7 imprecision, possible errors and deviations to be reduced to a minimum?

8 These weapons were actually inherently inaccurate, weren't they?

9 A. Well, it was imprecise. Namely when I said that I didn't take

10 part in the experimenting, it is a fact, though, and there was a witness

11 in this courtroom whose testimony I followed. I learned again through

12 stories that there were deviations, that, for example, a bomb sent one

13 way would not exactly follow the trajectory, and I asked why and what

14 happened, and then I was told that on occasion there would be a

15 malfunctioning engine, and the remaining three engines would push it out

16 of control. Then I requested that the -- a way be found or equipment

17 created to take care of that or to carry out checks that all engines are

18 properly functioning, and we -- there was a witness here who was in

19 charge of establishing that procedure, to have a team of electronics

20 engineers where engines were tested, and in such circumstances the bomb

21 always travelled the desired route. So there was no longer any

22 possibility that it would deviate you to a malfunctioning engine. I told

23 you that the engines were controlled at first in the factory and then at

24 the firing place itself where the engines were checked, and only then it

25 could be known that it would travel the desired route and distance. One

Page 30751

1 cannot --

2 Q. [Overlapping speakers] so --

3 A. -- say on account of all that that it was imprecise.

4 Q. So taking what you've just said, if we go back over to this

5 incident G10 that you referred to in paragraph 25, taking what you just

6 said and knowing that a civilian house in Hrasnica, this partly civilian

7 community that you've described was demolished because of the impact of

8 that air-bomb, are we meant to understand that you meant to target the

9 civilian house?

10 A. No house was destroyed in that area. It's an enemy lie. Our

11 observers told us about the unexploded one, whereas the other one

12 exploded on Ogrev. At Ogrev there were no houses in the vicinity. It's

13 an enemy line. I even had an opportunity to see their report if that's

14 what you had in mind. It was drafted two years after the war and one can

15 see it's a lie because, Madam Prosecutor, they said that five air-bombs

16 were launched at Hrasnica. It's a lie. There were only two. So they

17 start lying with the numbers and places where those bombs fell.

18 Q. I think we'll move on to another area, and it relates to

19 something that you referred to in the paragraphs of your statement that

20 you added after having seen Dr. Karadzic. In those additions you offered

21 us a number of documents that you say describe your relationship with

22 UNPROFOR, and you say that the brigade didn't cause problems with them

23 except when they abused their mandate, but on reading that, I recalled in

24 March 1995, the SRK closed all the land routes into Sarajevo including

25 those in the area of the Ilidza Brigade. Didn't that cause problems with

Page 30752

1 UNPROFOR?

2 A. In March 1995? Well, if so, to be honest, I can't really recall

3 it as I sit here, but there must have been very good reasons for

4 something like that. And I was not responsible for the area of

5 responsibility of the corps. I was only responsible for my own zone, and

6 that's -- my command would have been responsible for that, too, and there

7 must have been very strong reasons if that's what happened --

8 Q. Now --

9 A. -- that's what was done. I'm trying to recall where I was in

10 March 1995, and that's not easy. You have to admit that. I mean, you

11 should have put this question to someone from the corps.

12 Q. Now --

13 A. I cannot really speak for them.

14 Q. In July 1995, the problems actually got a little bit more

15 serious, and maybe we'll have a document, P897, called up to have a look

16 at that. In July 1995, your forces shelled UN convoys who were bringing

17 aid into the city over Mount Igman, and I don't think there's a

18 translation of this -- oh, there is. What a surprise. In that case,

19 we'll go to English page 4.

20 This document is an UNPROFOR weekly sitrep dated 15 July 1995 and

21 refers to an attack on the Igman road that devastates an aid convoy, and

22 if we -- and --

23 MS. EDGERTON: My apologies. I didn't realise, Your Honours,

24 that a B/C/S translation is available, but I would be grateful to my

25 friends if they would find the relevant paragraph.

Page 30753

1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I think we are there.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

3 Q. It reports in the paragraph that's headed: "Attacks on the Igman

4 road, aid convoy devastated, French retaliate," which is at the -- if you

5 could scroll down on the B/C/S page. That's the heading. And then the

6 text, relevant text, would be over on the next page of the English. This

7 report reads that:

8 "On Friday evening, 14 July, an UNPROFOR UNHCR convoy of four

9 vehicles carrying flour over Igman was attacked from Serb-held flats

10 below the mountain.

11 "A 30-millimetre cannon and a 76-millimetre tank weapon fired

12 from Bacevo and a T-55 fired from Gornji Kotorac. Two of the four

13 vehicles were destroyed on another was damaged."

14 Now, this doesn't appear to be an example of UNPROFOR exceeding

15 their mandate at all and yet they were fired upon.

16 A. Is there a question for me? Well, first of all, and I'm not sure

17 that the translation is good, and I hope that people who can speak both

18 Serbian and English follow this, we didn't have a 30-millimetre cannon,

19 nor do I know that there was a T-76-millimetre tank used during this

20 work. So immediately judging from that you can see that this report is

21 not accurate. We neither had this cannon nor a 76-millimetre tank. So

22 this now puts into question your entire claim here and question. We did

23 not have this cannon, and I say with -- this with full responsibility.

24 Nor did we have a 76-millimetre tank. That's what I'm reading here. So

25 we were not the ones who opened fire, because -- that's obvious, because

Page 30754

1 we did not have these assets.

2 Q. All right.

3 A. Or -- or -- just look at this, please. Please allow me. Serbs

4 returned fire with 78-millimetre calibre shells. That, too, does not

5 exist. So all these assets, all these weapons mentioned here, they're

6 just a fabrication. There is no 78-millimetre weapon, nor do I know of

7 any cannon, a 30-millimetre cannon, nor a 76-millimetre tank. There

8 really were no such weapons.

9 Q. Mr. --

10 A. So somebody just sat down and wrote this off the top of their

11 head.

12 Q. Well, let's have a look at P1782, a SRK daily combat report to

13 the VRS Main Staff for the 14 July -- 14th of July, 1995.

14 JUDGE KWON: The number again, Ms. Edgerton.

15 MS. EDGERTON: I'd better check with Mr. Reid, but -- apologies

16 for a moment, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat the exhibit number.

18 MS. EDGERTON: P1782 and I misspoke in terms of the date.

19 7 April 1995. That's the correct document. And let's go over in English

20 to page 3. And in B/C/S, we also need paragraph 3. I'm not sure of the

21 page number. In B/C/S you have to go over one further page. Thank you.

22 Oh, no. Apologies. It's paragraph 3. It's displayed halfway through

23 the page on the screen.

24 Q. Now, this is dated April 7, 1995, and it says:

25 "Problems with UNPROFOR emerged in the Ilidza Infantry Brigade

Page 30755

1 zone yesterday around 9.15 when UNPROFOR fired at our positions in the

2 area of the forestry school, following our shooting at the Hrasnica-Igman

3 road. After that, they came closer to the position of our Browning."

4 And then further it says:

5 "...today at around 7.30 in the morning, a UN unit positioned 4

6 APCs near our check-points in Nedzarici and later on 2 tanks as well,

7 hindering normal contact between Nedzarici and the ... airport ...," and

8 then, "the brigade blocked UNPROFOR."

9 So UNPROFOR was again shot at on the Hrasnica-Igman road this

10 time three months earlier than the first incident, by SRK forces. Are

11 you disputing the accuracy of this report?

12 A. Well, I can neither dispute it nor confirm it, Madam Prosecutor.

13 All I know is for your information and for the benefit of the

14 Trial Chamber, that we worked well together with UNPROFOR. We

15 co-operated. But there were also differences such as these, if I may

16 call them that, because, and I've already explained this to the Defence

17 and Mr. President, Mr. Karadzic, the -- namely the UNPROFOR was made up

18 of members of the Foreign Legion, and these legionnaires, of course some

19 of them were honourable but most of them just wanted to profit from other

20 people's suffering and to profit from other people's suffering when you

21 have an occasion is as follows: We saw -- --

22 Q. Now --

23 A. -- on the screens --

24 Q. Mr. Mijatovic --

25 (redacted)

Page 30756

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 A. A numbers of times, yes.

6 Q. And of course you've met with Dragomir Milosevic.

7 A. Yes, also a number of times, and they're both honourable men.

8 Q. And you would have met them then both at the brigade command but

9 also at corps headquarters at Lukavica?

10 A. Well, there is no corps Main Staff. There's only one Main Staff.

11 I want to make sure that there is no confusion here. There was a command

12 of the main corps of -- there was a corps command, so we met as

13 subordinate and superior at the corps command and the brigade command.

14 So this would be the correct answer. There was only one Main Staff and

15 that was --

16 Q. All right.

17 A. -- above the entire army.

18 Q. Now, did General Galic and General Milosevic come to your

19 brigade's area of responsibility to inspect the troops?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And how often would these inspections take place?

22 A. Well, they could say they were regular, because after all it was

23 part of their duties. So you could say that was on a regular basis.

24 Q. Would they visit the lines?

25 A. Yes. Yes, and there were occasions where I went with them to

Page 30757

1 visit the lines.

2 Q. And would you describe them as very familiar with the situation

3 in their corps overall?

4 A. Very well acquainted.

5 Q. And just one last question, just because you seem to have a

6 friendly relationship with the President and you waved at him when you

7 left the courtroom yesterday. How long have you known Dr. Karadzic?

8 A. Well, from before the war, but we didn't -- I didn't know him

9 personally. We met during the war, or in fact from the time when the

10 Serbian Democratic Party was established. That's for how long I've known

11 of him. I've known of him from the press, the television, and so on. He

12 was an admired person by the Serbian people. Is an admired person by the

13 Serbian people. And had it not been for him, the Serbian people would

14 not have remained on this side of the river, nor would it have survived

15 in that area, because we saw in Kosovo and Macedonia and Slovenia and

16 Croatia what was in store for Serbs.

17 Q. When you say "this side of the river," what river are you talking

18 about?

19 A. Well, I mean the Drina River. The enemy's objective, and this

20 was mentioned on numerous occasions in the media and on the TV in

21 Slovenia and Croatia, and even to this day in Bosnia and Herzegovina

22 Sefer Halilovic said that if need be, they would resolve the Serbian

23 issue summarily and --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last

25 portion of his answer.

Page 30758

1 MS. EDGERTON:

2 Q. The interpreters didn't hear the last portion of your answer

3 after resolving "the Serbian issue."

4 A. Well, according to them, the enemy, that's what it meant. And I

5 also added, but you had taken your headphones off so you couldn't have

6 heard this, you probably didn't hear of the statement by the commander of

7 the so-called Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, General Halilovic's. It again

8 introduced a certain level of friction in that area and caused unrest,

9 because he openly on TV and through the media again issued threats to

10 Serbs, saying that he would handle us summarily or take care of us

11 summarily, us Serbs, and he's just one of many of those who keep issuing

12 threats and using warmongering --

13 Q. Mr. Mijatovic?

14 A. -- speeches.

15 Q. Mr. Mijatovic?

16 A. And the same is true of Izetbegovic and -- --

17 Q. Mr. Mijatovic?

18 A. -- Bakir Izetbegovic and --

19 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. You did much more than repeat the last

20 portion of your answer.

21 I'm over time, Your Honours, so I'm concluding.

22 JUDGE KWON: You didn't deal with the video-clip at all.

23 MS. EDGERTON: Recognising that I'm over time, Your Honours, I

24 chose to not deal with it and focus on other areas.

25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. Karadzic, do you have any

Page 30759

1 re-examination? How long would you need?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Between 15 to 20 minutes and

3 perhaps even less.

4 JUDGE KWON: Shall we have a break -- a short break?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, can we try to do it without

6 the break, because that will make it faster. If I elicit short answers

7 we can go on without a break.

8 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Then let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.

9 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Major sir, it was suggested to you that you met

11 with me at the Detention Unit. Did you meet with me in the

12 Detention Unit, and how did we have your statement confirmed?

13 A. To my great regret, Mr. President, we did not meet directly. We

14 spoke via link that was --

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end. Could

16 all other microphones please be switched off. Thank you.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Thank you. You said --

19 JUDGE KWON: The interpreters said they couldn't hear the last

20 part of the witness's answer. What did you say? "We spoke via link,"

21 and then? What did you say after you mentioned videolink -- via link?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said it was to my great regret

23 that we did not talk directly that we talked through this videolink.

24 That is what I said. That's all I said.

25 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.

Page 30760

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Thank you. Did I suggest those positions to you and those

3 locations where the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was, or how was it that I

4 asked you about the forces that were facing you?

5 A. Well, Mr. President, and I'm responding to Their Honours, you

6 could not suggest that to me. If anyone could have suggested anything to

7 anyone, only I could have suggested this to you, because I'm from the

8 area. I spent the war there. There was no need for any kind of

9 suggestion coming from you.

10 Q. Thank you. There was the question of your information about the

11 existence of observers in your brigade and that that was not reflected in

12 your statement. Do you know of any brigades that did not have observers?

13 A. I don't think that nowhere in the world is there a brigade that

14 did not have one, let alone the Army of Republika Srpska. They were

15 certainly one of the most disciplined armies in the world. There is

16 simply no brigade anywhere without observers; not only in our area but

17 anywhere in the world, any army anywhere in the world.

18 Q. Thank you. In line 50 today there was mention of whether

19 civilians were present at firing positions. Let me ask you this: Did

20 you allow the following: While artillery pieces were firing, could

21 civilians gather around that artillery piece?

22 A. No way. That is a basic rule of warfare anywhere that civilians

23 should not be close to weapons that are firing.

24 Q. What about --

25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, it's a leading question.

Page 30761

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Well, I'm asking, for instance, whether the Muslim side assembled

3 civilians while they were firing at you.

4 A. No. No. That is impossible for any normal person to do that.

5 Q. Thank you. On page 49, Witness Fraser was mentioned, and it was

6 noted that he said that with your mortars you could not damage buildings

7 at all. What was your objective? Was your objective to destroy

8 buildings in Alipasino Polje? What could you use to destroy buildings

9 there?

10 A. Mr. President, this was never our intention or our objective to

11 fire at civilian facilities or civilians, not only in Alipasino Polje but

12 anywhere in Republika Srpska. I state that with full responsibility.

13 Wherever I was at any front line, that was never the objective and that

14 was never the intention to fire at civilians and civilian facilities.

15 Q. If it would be your objective to destroy buildings, massive

16 strong buildings, what could you use to break down such buildings, what

17 kind of weaponry?

18 A. Well, we'd have to use heavy calibres to damage a building.

19 These are howitzers or cannons or tanks. Those are weapons for

20 destroying buildings, but I repeat once again it was not our objective or

21 our intention to do that. On the contrary, although we ourselves knew of

22 the law of war and the Geneva Conventions, we did receive orders that

23 were of a permanent nature, a lasting nature, not to fire, not even to

24 use the weapons that we did have, nothing against civilians or civilian

25 facilities.

Page 30762

1 Q. Thank you.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have in e-court D331.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. This is an intercept, a conversation between myself and the late

5 Danilo Veselinovic. Did you know who Danilo Veselinovic was?

6 A. Yes, I knew him personally, Mr. President, but I don't have that

7 here now -- oh, just a moment. Yes, I have it now.

8 Q. Thank you. This is the 13th of April, 1992. Can we have page 2

9 both in English and in Serbian. It was suggested to you that I knew

10 about fire against Hrasnica and it was implied that I accepted civilian

11 casualties. Please let us look at line 8 or 9 from up here:

12 "Radovan Karadzic: Aha, to probably the traffic-light the sports

13 hall.

14 And then Veselinovic says:

15 "Yes, the hall."

16 "Which sports hall?"

17 And then he says, Veselinovic:

18 "At Mojmilo. Well, it's in our hands. Shall we blow it up or

19 not?"

20 And then further down I'm asking whether there are people there.

21 And now can we have page 3 in Serbian in English we can keep this one.

22 It's towards the bottom of the page in English here.

23 And Danilo is saying:

24 "Should I fire?"

25 And I say:

Page 30763

1 "Yes, it is important that there are no people there, that there

2 won't be any civilian casualties."

3 Does this correspond to your knowledge about our attitude towards

4 Muslim civilian casualties?

5 A. Well, Mr. President, when Serbs say "bignoti [phoen]," that means

6 "to take" or, rather, to -- to -- but then, you know, in the jargon also

7 I don't know whether the people who are present here -- when this verb is

8 used, say, in Sarajevo, that would mean that somebody stole my wallet, my

9 coat or something like that. So that verb was used like meaning to

10 steal, to nick, if you will. I know that you were very explicit, very

11 imperative. You always said that fire should not be opened. You and

12 also the Main Staff headed by General Mladic and also the corps commands

13 and the brigade commands said that civilians and civilian facilities

14 should not be fired at.

15 Q. Thank you. But on this page here in Serbian it says "should we

16 fire?" So that is where there was a warehouse of looted goods. And he

17 says, "should I fire?" And then my answer is that it is important that

18 there are no people there. But, thank you, you've answered my question.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please have 1D3002.

20 Thank you.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Can we please take a look at this. This is the

23 16th of February, 1994. This is a meeting with Galic, an UNPROFOR

24 meeting, a meeting of the UNPROFOR commander with him.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page now,

Page 30764

1 please.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have a translation here.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. I'm going to read it out in English and then you will receive

5 interpretation.

6 A. Very well.

7 Q. Just five. [In English] "Regrouping of Bosnia of weapons":

8 "As they are very concerned with the area south-east of Sarajevo,

9 I told them that I will ask the Bosnian side to regroup heavy weapons

10 from Butmir, Sokolovic and Hrasnica in one location under UNPROFOR

11 control."

12 [Interpretation] Before I put my question, let me just remind you

13 this is the 16th of February, 1994, and there was this promise given to

14 General Galic as to what UNPROFOR will do with Muslims weapons to the

15 south-west of Sarajevo.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please look at 1D8374.

17 1D8374.

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Please take a look at this. You have it in Serbian. There's a

20 reference to the 14th of July, and could you please take a look at this

21 here. It says that we started an artillery attack on an unannounced

22 convoy of trucks travelling along the so-called Igman road. Do you

23 remember that it was the duty of UNPROFOR to announce their convoys

24 including the vehicles and goods involved?

25 A. I remember that very well. That was the obligation of UNPROFOR.

Page 30765

1 Q. I shall rephrase. Major, why did it say unannounced convoy here?

2 A. Mr. President, that is quite clear to me. There was no need for

3 this reaction on the part of Madam Prosecutor. I am one of the persons

4 who carried out the measures agreed between UNPROFOR and the Serb side,

5 and there were no problems whenever they were announced and when they

6 were not smuggling ammunition and weapons into Sarajevo. So one just had

7 to have this goodwill and announce the convoy and then there would be no

8 problems whatsoever.

9 Q. Thank you. Did their mandate include escorting trucks of the

10 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11 A. That did not -- that was not part of their mandate. On the

12 contrary, that was a violation of the agreements with the Serb side.

13 Q. Thank you. I'm now going to read out this other paragraph: Our

14 artillery fire was counteracted by mortar shells and machine-gun fire

15 from the enemy position on Igman, Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija as well

16 as the firing positions and assets of UNPROFOR.

17 That obligation from February 1994 that they will regroup and

18 remove these weapons from these Muslim settlements, was that honoured?

19 A. We knew. Our observers reported to us directly and regularly and

20 we knew that this had not been honoured and that is true because on the

21 14th of July there were already rapid deployment forces stationed at

22 UNPROFOR together with UNPROFOR. And now why do I remember this? On the

23 14th of July the parents of my military policeman got killed within the

24 hospital compound. So it was the hospital that was shelled on that day

25 from all directions, not only Sokolovic Kolonija but Butmir but also from

Page 30766

1 Igman where these rapid deployment forces were and where UNPROFOR was.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you just one more document,

3 1D6451, please. Can these two that we've already seen be admitted,

4 Excellency?

5 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure whether you asked anything about the

6 previous document.

7 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

8 MS. EDGERTON: I was just pointing out this document 1D03002 is

9 actually already admitted as P02120. That's the previous document.

10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. And you have no objection to admit the

11 last document.

12 MS. EDGERTON: Of course not.

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We will admit it as next Defence exhibit.

14 THE REGISTRAR: 1D8374 receives number D2512, Your Honours.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Along with an apology for not having this translated yet, I mean

18 this document, but indeed the need cropped up for that. I'll read it

19 out:

20 "On the basis of daily reports of duty officers of battalions, we

21 hereby notify you that during the last night and day the enemy did not

22 abide by the signed cease-fire because constant provocations went on by

23 sniper fire from the directions of Oslobodjenje, Dobrinja 5, Butmir. We

24 did not respond to fire. We did not have any casualties, any wounded or

25 dead."

Page 30767

1 What was the usual thing? When did you not respond with fire?

2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

3 MS. EDGERTON: We have a translation.

4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

5 And what is your question, Mr. Karadzic?

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Does this reflect the truth, that fire was opened from these

8 positions, that the Serb side did not respond unless they had any

9 casualties, wounded or dead?

10 A. Mr. President, sometimes it happened that we had both dead and

11 wounded and did not respond nevertheless. Why? Believe me, I conducted

12 an analysis. Most of our dead lost their lives during cease-fires,

13 because the Serbs fully observed the cease-fire whereas the enemy side,

14 the Muslims, did not and this is correct what is written here.

15 Q. Could I ask you now that you read paragraph 3 while we're waiting

16 for the translation, that is the situation in the area of responsibility

17 of our brigade and then?

18 A. Yes. UNPROFOR is carrying out its regular tasks and today it was

19 observed that it was escorting a column of Turkish trucks up Igman. The

20 reference is to Muslim forces, sorry.

21 Q. Were they allowed to do that according to their mandate?

22 A. No. That was obvious. I think that once or twice I said that.

23 I said that. Sometimes they were fair in their co-operation and

24 sometimes they were unfair. When I say unfair, I'm saying this: This is

25 abuse of their mission. I mean, the mission of the United Nations.

Page 30768

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Major. I have no

2 further questions. Can this document be admitted.

3 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.

4 MS. EDGERTON: No objection.

5 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive it.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D6451 receives number D2513,

7 Your Honours.

8 JUDGE KWON: As regards the three video-clips you used in your

9 examination-in-chief, Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber finds the first one,

10 i.e., 1D6482, not relevant to this case. However, as regards the

11 remainder of those three, i.e., 1D6483 and 1D6484, albeit marginally, the

12 Chamber finds it relevant so that we'll admit those two. Shall we give

13 the number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D6483 receives number D2514,

15 Your Honours, and document 1D6484 receives number D2515, Your Honours.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The first two that were

17 untranslated were even more important for the Defence, but in order not

18 to have to keep the witness here, by your leave, we will seek to tender

19 them through his commander or someone else from his brigade who could

20 testify to the contents.

21 JUDGE KWON: So you are not going to keep the witness until next

22 week. Very well. Then that concludes your evidence, Mr. Mijatovic. I

23 thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it. Now you are free to

24 go. But we will rise altogether -- yes. You may be excused

25 Mr. Mijatovic.