130121ED

Page 32277

1 witness -- I'll get his KDZ number, well Mr. Indjic, in any event,

2 comprising lengthy commentary, about 21 newly notified documents, 15 of

3 which were not on the 65 ter list and three of which are not translated.

4 So those create significant problems by way of preparation, as the Court

5 can imagine. Ms. Edgerton is here to provide any additional details

6 since she is deeply immersed in the particulars of the preparation and

7 the documents.

8 I would note, however, that the nature of the problem is such

9 that Mr. Robinson also appreciates the difficulties which arise from that

10 belated notification and has indicated, for example, that he had no

11 objection to the deferral of Mr. Indjic's cross-examination until at

12 least some point after Mr. Milosevic's examination-in-chief. And I

13 appreciate his acknowledgement of the difficulties that arise, although

14 as the Court is aware we are seeing this on a -- now a fairly regular

15 basis.

16 I can provide the Court or Ms. Edgerton can provide the Court

17 with any additional details that may be required, but it is safe to say

18 that the late notification presents hurdles that need to be addressed and

19 that we ask the Court to attend to.

20 I would also note that in accordance with the Court's practice in

21 terms of late notification of materials related to a 92 ter submission,

22 that we would expect a minimum of course that those would be led live,

23 but as we discussed last week the requirement or the expectation that

24 parties will lead information belatedly noticed live is separate from the

25 issue of resolving the notice problem. So I address those in two

Page 32278

1 different -- I compartmentalise those for purposes of addressing the

2 Court and as I did in my discussion with Mr. Robinson.

3 So those are two remedies that come to mind. The Court may have

4 other matters in mind and I know the Court has indicated in the past it

5 might impose more Draconian solutions rather than the practical solution

6 of leading matters live and deferring cross-examination until such time

7 as the Prosecution can at least have the hope of properly preparing. But

8 at this moment we're seeking only that those matters be led live and that

9 the cross-examination be deferred until we can satisfactorily prepare to

10 deal with the material provided.

11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.

12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. First of all, our position is

13 really unequivocal in the sense that we don't mind the Prosecution having

14 enough time to prepare and recognise that when they receive new

15 information, such as they have over the weekend, that they should be

16 entitled to whatever time they reasonably need to prepare before

17 commencing their cross-examination. On the other hand, we don't think

18 there's any violation of the Court's rules and the circumstances of

19 Mr. Indjic's statement is pretty much as follows: First of all, he was

20 interviewed I believe in 2011. You recall that the Court continually

21 admonished us that we should be preparing our Defence case during the

22 Prosecution case, so we tried to do that. And so we took a statement

23 from him back then. And then when he came for proofing over the weekend

24 Dr. Karadzic elicited further information that he thought was important

25 and that had since 2011 been highlighted as being of importance to us.

Page 32279

1 And so that's why all those paragraphs and 20 documents were added to the

2 statement during -- immediately after the proofing and notified to the

3 Prosecution over the weekend.

4 So the rule essentially requires us to make our 92 ter package

5 48 hours in advance of the witness's testimony. That witness will

6 probably commence his direct examination this afternoon, but the

7 cross-examination wouldn't have commenced until tomorrow morning. So we

8 would have been within the 48 hours and I think that we've given enough

9 notice. We disclosed the documents to the Prosecution earlier than this

10 weekend. I think we'd given them those documents about at least a week

11 ago if not more. So we've done everything we could to comply with the

12 rules, and I think we have, and on the other hand we recognise the

13 Prosecution should have sufficient time to deal with this kind of volume

14 of new material.

15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, would you like to add anything?

16 MR. TIEGER: Essentially, Mr. President, as you've seen,

17 Mr. Robinson's submission is consistent with the solution proposed by the

18 Prosecution in this particular case; nevertheless, I think I have to

19 address the suggestion that whatever materials are provided 48 hours in

20 advance satisfy the rules or standards imposed by this Court. It is

21 obvious that there is a stretching and then a breaking point to the

22 amount of material that can be provided immediately before the 48-hour

23 dead-line that essentially crosses the pragmatic line established by the

24 Court, and there was reference to that earlier. And the Court always

25 referred to the issue of the extent of the material provided and the

Page 32280

1 nature of that material. So while I'm -- I don't know that it implicates

2 a specific issue by way of resolution in this instance, it's important I

3 think for the Defence to continue to bear in mind that the nature of the

4 material added, the volume of the material added, can run afoul of the

5 guidance provided by the Court if it is extensive enough irrespective of

6 whether it technically is provided before the 48-hour dead-line. And you

7 can look at that in different ways. You can think of it being a

8 completely different statement or you could simply heed the Court's

9 repeated admonitions in earlier portions of the case. But the fact is if

10 the -- if either party has in mind a great deal of additional information

11 that wasn't notified previously, they simply have to deal with that in

12 other ways rather than dumping it on the other party at the last moment.

13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, the Chamber wasn't aware of this

14 situation. I just received an e-mail from my staff that -- stating that

15 the Chamber has received this revised statement at 9.30 p.m. on Saturday,

16 and the Chamber hasn't had any opportunity to look through whether this

17 is -- this -- these additional associated exhibits would form the part --

18 indispensable and inseparable part of the statement. I'll consult my

19 colleagues.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, being consistent with the Chamber's

22 practice, the Chamber will order the Defence to lead live with respect to

23 any revised part -- added part as well as the associated exhibits.

24 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, would the Chamber consider allowing

25 us to vary the order of witnesses so that the direct examination of

Page 32281

1 Mr. Indjic occurs after the direct examination of Dragomir Milosevic,

2 thus giving the Chamber at least a couple of days to look over the new

3 material and the new documents? I should also indicate that we disclosed

4 the documents 29th of November to the Prosecution that we thought we

5 might be using, including these 20, of which three are untranslated. And

6 we recognise we would either have to lead those live or abandon them.

7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.

8 MR. TIEGER: A few things, Mr. President. First of all, let me

9 point out and on a very practical level that the same counsel,

10 Ms. Edgerton, is -- will be cross-examining both witnesses in this case.

11 So the change of order doesn't address the preparation issue for us.

12 That implicates a second comment I wanted to make, which is we understand

13 the Court's guidance, consistent guidance, that belatedly notified

14 material needs to be led live as a reflection of the fact the Court does

15 not consider that an appropriate usage of 92 ter and therefore reverts

16 back to the more conventional manner of leading evidence. But of course

17 it doesn't address the preparation issue. Either way we've just received

18 that information and it creates the same problem so we need to resolve

19 that as well, which I think is reflected in Mr. Robinson's comments. But

20 as I say, in this instance it doesn't seem to accomplish that.

21 And finally, the provision of the documents relatively shortly

22 before but untethered to anything by way of notification about what role

23 they play in the context of the witness's testimony is of course more

24 welcome than not providing them at all, but of only the most modest

25 assistance to the Prosecution in properly preparing. We are not looking

Page 32282

1 for ways to gum-up the process, Mr. President. We have bent over

2 backwards to try to accommodate that and our lawyers are working deep

3 into the night as a result of these belated notifications to be as

4 prepared as possible. So when we bring these matters to the attention of

5 the Court, it's because it presents significant preparation obstacle, one

6 that I think is actually quite clear, both to the parties and to the

7 Bench.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say a couple of words,

9 please?

10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not wish to go back to that,

12 but I wish to remind you of one thing. I asked to start on the

13 1st of March and that was a realistic assessment. On the other hand, no

14 one can really know that well what a witness can say as I can. Here we

15 have the accused and we have the lead counsel for Defence in detention.

16 As for the witness's knowledge, the extent of his knowledge, I only got

17 to know about that during proofing. Very often witnesses are proofed via

18 videolink which can have a huge detrimental effect on the fairness and

19 legality of this -- of these proceedings. I am trying to contribute as

20 much as I can myself. We are a lot fewer than the Prosecution. We work

21 until the wee hours of the morning, sometimes 4.00 or 5.00 in the

22 morning. We're dropping --

23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second --

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- because we're tired. By the

25 1st of March we will have gone through over a hundred witnesses and we

Page 32283

1 will be very tired by that time --

2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, by leading live some part of a certain

3 witness, what prejudice do you have at all?

4 MR. ROBINSON: No prejudice, Mr. President, so long as you grant

5 us additional hours over the 300 to accommodate that, then we would have

6 no prejudice.

7 JUDGE KWON: Given the significance or importance of this

8 witness, this witness could have been ordered to be led live. So I think

9 it's a good way to strike a balance to lead live with respect to the

10 revised and added part, and it's only -- it relates only 20 documents.

11 I'll consult my colleagues again.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber sees no reason to revise its ruling it

14 gave earlier on.

15 Shall we bring in the witness? But next witness is Pljevaljcic.

16 MR. TIEGER: Yeah, Mr. President, just if I may by way of

17 clarification. Given Mr. Robinson's initial acknowledgement of the

18 problem and acquiescence in the suggestion that the cross-examination of

19 Mr. Indjic be deferred until after the Dragomir Milosevic direct

20 examination, it may have been that the Court considered that that was an

21 agreed approach and didn't articulate it, but I just wanted to confirm

22 for the sake of certainty of scheduling that that would be the approach

23 adopted.

24 MR. ROBINSON: We're still willing to do that, Mr. President.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 32284

1 JUDGE KWON: As to the order of witnesses, I would leave it to

2 the parties if it is convenient. The Chamber sees no difficulty with it.

3 Let's see how it evolves. And -- yes.

4 Would the witness take the solemn declaration, please.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 WITNESS: TRIVKO PLJEVALJCIC

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Pljevaljcic. Make yourself

10 comfortable, please.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, will it be you to have the

13 cross-examination?

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE KWON: But the Chamber hasn't been informed of the time for

16 cross, but I take it the Prosecution understands that in case of viva

17 voce witness the Prosecution will have the same amount of time as the

18 Defence for its evidence in chief.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, that's understood.

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies. Good

22 morning to everyone.

23 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Pljevaljcic.

25 A. Good morning, and I'm wishing you all the best.

Page 32285

1 Q. As you have learned, perhaps we have to have this

2 examination-in-chief viva voce, so we will go through all the steps.

3 Could you please tell us your first, last name, and your father's name?

4 A. I'm Trivko Pljevaljcic, son of Milo, born in 1955 in the

5 municipality of Foca, former Yugoslavia.

6 Q. Thank you. I made a mistake now. I began too early. We need to

7 pause between question and answer. Can you please tell us what your

8 education is.

9 A. I completed secondary school as an electrical engineer and this

10 is what I did my whole life.

11 Q. Thank you. And did you serve in the army?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. And what was your speciality?

14 A. I served in the communications section.

15 Q. Thank you. And where did you work and what were your duties?

16 A. From 1975 I worked in the railway construction enterprise in

17 Belgrade. I went into the field in Pristina and all over the former

18 Yugoslavia, and then in 1981 I started to work in Focatrans and this is

19 where I worked until I was -- they made me leave. Later in 1995 I got a

20 job at the Foca correctional facility, which was the KP Dom at the time,

21 that's what it was called, and it's still there today. I'm still not

22 retired, but I intend to take my retirement this year.

23 Q. Thank you. And are you able to tell us where you were when the

24 war broke out?

25 A. I was at home with my family.

Page 32286

1 Q. And where was your house?

2 A. Well, I had an apartment in town, but I had left and was in a

3 village close to Foca, some 5 to 6 kilometres away from Foca, and that's

4 where I was staying with my family.

5 Q. The word "fled" has not been translated. Can you please tell us

6 when you left as a refugee, when you fled, and why.

7 A. Well, I fled in early April 1992 because the Muslim forces were

8 evidently arming themselves and it was obvious to all the citizens of

9 Foca, and this part of town where I was living had a predominantly Muslim

10 population. And then my village where I come from is an ethnically pure

11 Serbian village, although it borders with two Muslim villages, and this

12 is where I escaped, fled, went as a refugees in order to save my family,

13 my wife and children.

14 Q. And save them from what? What kind of danger were they in?

15 A. Well, there was the danger because a couple of days before the

16 conflict broke out the Muslim forces set up barricades, and one of them

17 was set up in that part which leads to my village. Another barricade was

18 set up near the medical centre in Foca. So you couldn't pass. The only

19 people who could pass were people in medical ambulances and there was

20 some other vehicles that were not allowed through.

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the complete

22 sentence.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Thank you. And who controlled those check-points and who decided

25 who would pass and who would not?

Page 32287

1 JUDGE KWON: I was told that the interpreters did not hear the

2 complete sentence. Could you repeat the last sentence, Mr. Pljevaljcic.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The last sentence was that Muslim

4 forces were at the check-points. They were armed. Some of them were

5 wearing civilian clothing and there was a number of them wearing military

6 uniforms, camouflage uniforms. The only vehicles that were let through

7 were ambulances or hospital -- vehicles that were going to the Foca

8 hospital. But the last day before the conflict broke out they were not

9 letting those vehicles through either, so that eventually that section of

10 Foca was completely blockaded. That was my last sentence.

11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. Pljevaljcic, can I ask you to speak

12 slowly again and put a pause before you start answering the question of

13 Mr. Karadzic.

14 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. And what was the situation in the other parts of Foca in that

18 regard?

19 A. Well, as for other parts of the town, I think that the Serbs also

20 put up a barricade in the direction of Cerezluk which is a neighbourhood

21 mostly populated by Serbs; that's where the church is located, in that

22 area, the Serb Orthodox church. That's where the Serbs put up a

23 barricade. There were no other barricades in Foca.

24 Q. Thank you. And these Serbs and these Muslims who had put up

25 these barricades, who were they? Were they some sort of official forces?

Page 32288

1 Who were they?

2 A. Well, there were no official forces at the time, yet these were

3 local Muslims from Foca, they were known to us, as well as the Serbs.

4 They were also citizens of Foca. There were no other forces from outside

5 there yet.

6 Q. Thank you. And how did the police force act, the official police

7 forces which were a state organ?

8 A. The official police forces did not react at all and they were not

9 able to react to these things either because the police was divided. The

10 town was supposed to be divided as well, in the sense of dividing the

11 authority, the government, in the town. And they negotiated about that

12 for a few days. The police station was already divided along the lines

13 of the executors and floors. One floor was supposed to go to the Muslims

14 and another to the Serbs. The executive authorities in the municipality

15 of Foca was negotiating about the division of power in the town so that

16 on that day before the conflict actually broke out the division was

17 discussed, and then in the afternoon two Serb negotiators were supposed

18 to be arrested, Mladjenovic and Bodiroga [phoen]. They managed to avoid

19 being lynched. And then according to talk later the conflict broke out

20 on Tuesday, and on Thursday other Serb members in the executive power and

21 active in politics were supposed to be hijacked.

22 Q. Thank you. Well, we will go back to that, but I just want to ask

23 you a little bit more about this division. Was this supposed to be a

24 physical division or was it about forming two distinct municipalities?

25 A. This was about forming two municipalities. It was about dividing

Page 32289

1 the municipality and that's how it turned out in the end. After the war

2 the municipality of Foca was divided in such a way that the Muslims now

3 have Ustikolina which was before part of Foca. Now it's called

4 Foca Ustikolina. And then the town was supposed to be divided as well;

5 however, it would have been better if the division had actually taken

6 place rather than what happened because some people did not wish this to

7 happen, they did not want this division to actually occur.

8 Q. Thank you. Were there conditions -- or, how large is the

9 territory of Foca? Was it possible to create several municipalities from

10 that municipality?

11 A. In the former Yugoslavia, the Foca municipality was the

12 second-largest one, just behind Niksic, so Foca is a large municipality

13 and it was possible to divide it. Of course not -- of course it's a

14 large territory, it had the proper infrastructure, all the institutions

15 could be divided, and I think that that would have been a much better

16 solution than the one that was actually implemented.

17 Q. Thank you. And in that case if each community would have had

18 their own municipality, would it have been possible to expel anyone and

19 would some troubles possibly have been avoided that occurred later?

20 A. Well, any peaceful solution without expulsions, without war,

21 without conflict would be better, and that's why I say that it would have

22 been much better had this matter been resolved peacefully.

23 Q. Thank you. And what was the position of the Serb side in Foca?

24 What were they advocating?

25 A. The Serb side in Foca was in a way always in a subservient

Page 32290

1 position. I'm going to quote a few examples. When national parties were

2 supposed to be have been formed - I think this was sometime in the spring

3 of 1990 - that was when the Serbs sent out an appeal or they put a

4 question to the constitutional court of the then-Bosnia and Herzegovina

5 not to permit national parties from registering because the Serbs could

6 see where this was leading. However, the answer of the B&H

7 constitutional court was negative to the Serbs and they did permit

8 national parties to register, they were formed, they were registered, and

9 we all remember very well the meeting -- the rally in Foca and the

10 flags - and we will discuss that later - so that after that, a month or

11 two after that, the Serbs were forced to form the

12 Serbian Democratic Party.

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I was listening to this

15 examination-in-chief and it's a totally different examination-in-chief

16 that could have been expected. When we look at the -- when we look at

17 the statement that the witness has actually given, there is no subject of

18 that kind in there. So I'm -- the Prosecution did not get any notice of

19 what the witness would be speaking about.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may respond. Ten to 12

21 paragraphs or 15 or more were deleted that referred to the conditions in

22 which the Serbs lived in Foca. So now I have to get to these answers

23 beyond questions that have to do with him personally or Focatrans that

24 deal with the conditions of life that had an effect on eventually the

25 outbreak of the conflict. I did not request for a viva voce examination.

Page 32291

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, given that this witness is

3 giving his evidence live and that the subject matter so far dealt with

4 related -- are related to the background of the conflict, I would let the

5 accused continue.

6 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Pljevaljcic, you mentioned that Muslims were arming

10 themselves and preparing for war. How did you know this?

11 A. Well, we knew that through various reports. I will give you some

12 examples. Before the war broke out, police near Gorazde, near Ustipraca

13 stopped a trailer-truck that was going to Sarajevo from somewhere in

14 Sandzak and the goods it was carrying were suspicious -- actually, there

15 were arms. That was when the security services centre began working in

16 Sarajevo. The minister was a Muslim, so this was hushed up. Another

17 example was when once the war started after a couple of days when the

18 Muslims left Focatrans, in the compound of Focatrans there was a

19 trailer-truck full of mortar shells but they were packed in its original

20 packing of Badelj [phoen] cognac and that's how the shells were packed.

21 Then the Focatrans warehouse, because the Focatrans cafeteria was located

22 in the basement not on the ground floor, these were very large rooms and

23 warehouses and then next to Focatrans there was an enormous railways

24 warehouse which had stopped operating a long time ago. A lot of weaponry

25 was found there and medical equipment, a lot of food was found there. So

Page 32292

1 I think that the bulk or a large part of the weapons that came to Foca

2 came in with Focatrans vehicles not just from Gorazde but also from

3 Sarajevo.

4 If I may add also, when the conflict broke out, they were working

5 intensively on the manufacture of other types of weapons, and when the

6 conflict actually broke out the first evening there was strong shelling

7 of the settlement that I mentioned in the beginning, Cerezluk, where the

8 Serbian Orthodox church is. Intensive shelling began from multi-rocket

9 launchers and mortars and we got a little bit concerned then because you

10 can imagine what a multiple rocket-launcher is with rockets -- large

11 number of rockets being fired. So when the hill was captured a couple of

12 days later, this Weber was captured and brought to Foca and you could see

13 that it was a multiple rocket-launcher that was handmade and it was

14 produced in Unis which is a factory which produces wires. And the

15 Muslims were holding the post of director and head of production and a

16 Serb was participating in the production of it, and then when he saw that

17 he said, "Guys, I made this so it was funny for me. How did you make it

18 you're going to prison?" And he said, "Well, I was given instructions by

19 my chief. I don't know why this was necessary." So he produced some

20 parts of that. He didn't actually put it together. So he made some

21 parts of that multiple rocket-launcher.

22 Q. Thank you. I will not ask you any further about Focatrans, but

23 could you tell us how possible that these weapons were discovered only

24 after the Muslims withdrew from Foca? How come you hadn't discovered it

25 earlier?

Page 32293

1 A. Well, you know how we discovered it? The police in Foca was

2 divided and so was the police station, and if there was anything being

3 brought in people just didn't expect it. No one expected the fighting

4 and the conflict to be so fierce. There were stories going around.

5 People knew that there were weapons being brought in, but somehow there

6 was nothing done about it. People sort of expected that someone from the

7 top would interfere and stop all of that, but unfortunately that did not

8 happen and we know what happened afterwards.

9 Q. Thank you. As for those stockpiled weapons that were warehoused

10 in Focatrans, did Serbs have access to them and were they in a position

11 to uncover this in time?

12 A. Well, it's quite possible that some of those weapons were hauled

13 in by the Serbs themselves. You know what happened? I think about 104

14 of us were issued work permits and the director Djurid -- Murid Djuliman,

15 he brought in another 70 Muslim labourers. Now, about ten Serbs left,

16 they went back home, they had their own families, they had no means of

17 living, so they were forced to come back and work with the Muslims. Now

18 what happened? The people who remained, they worked under a special

19 regimen there. There was something about it in the paper that was issued

20 about it at the time, I believe it was called "Vox" and the editor was

21 Sahinpasic, called Saja. Well, so most probably the Serbs were the ones

22 who hauled in the weapons with the trailer-truck that was discovered

23 because they weren't really -- they wouldn't have been able to enter the

24 compound because was there was an officer on duty, a driver who was on

25 duty at the gate. He was guarding and overseeing entry into and out of

Page 32294

1 the compound, so no Serb would have been able to enter the perimeter in

2 his own vehicle because at the gate itself they would have to hand-over

3 the vehicle.

4 And my apologies, Mr. Karadzic, but as I said most probably the

5 Serbs brought these weapons in because of course they had a travel slip.

6 It said on the travel slip that this was cognac that they were being --

7 that they were bringing in. So they didn't know that it was something

8 quite different.

9 Q. Thank you. Now to assist the interpreters, it says in the

10 transcript here when we received work permits, but could you please

11 describe to the Trial Chamber what it is that in our language the word to

12 receive work permit means or work booklet?

13 A. Well, to receive, to get back, our work booklet means to get a

14 pink slip. In other words, you are fired. That's what it means.

15 Q. Never mind, this is a phrase that we use, a work booklet, but the

16 interpreters do not necessarily know it.

17 Now, tell us, what was the connection between the firing of those

18 104 Serbs and the hiring of 60 Serbs and the weapons?

19 A. Well, it wasn't 60 Serbs that were hired -- re-hired, it was 60

20 Muslims that were re-hired in their place. Well, you see, when we were

21 trying to figure out later on what had happened, in fact this is what it

22 was. The Serbs were in the way of the Muslim authorities, they were in

23 the way of what Focatrans had in mind and their objective was to arm the

24 Muslim population in Foca, Gorazde, and the surrounding areas, and they

25 couldn't do it because of the Serbs. Because you can see it if you look

Page 32295

1 at the Serbs who returned, who went back to work there, they simply had

2 no insight into what type of goods were coming into the Focatrans

3 compound and what goods were leaving it. So most probably the Serbs were

4 an obstacle and in fact it is incomprehensible. The former Yugoslavia or

5 even Europe had never seen a thing like that, that in a multi-ethnic

6 society over 100 employees are fired at the same time. I believe there

7 were perhaps two or three Muslims in that group who also were fired, but

8 that's all.

9 Q. What was the position of the police officers from various ethnic

10 communities regarding the arming? Who was it who took part in this whole

11 operation?

12 A. Well, as I've said a moment ago, the police just observed the

13 arming but did nothing about it, they didn't react, because they would

14 have been fired. And they too could then become victims of the ethnic

15 divisions and they could be left without work because at the time there

16 was still one single chief of the SUP. He was a Muslim. But as I've

17 already said at the beginning, all the plans had already been in place

18 about the divisions. Now, the civilian authorities themselves could not

19 prevent the arming either. Simply, they just watched what was happening

20 wordlessly and things just went their way.

21 Q. What about the religious communities?

22 A. Well, religious communities had policies of their own that they

23 pursued, and one could see what their positions were at a religious

24 meeting that -- a rally that occurred in mid-1990s in Pijesak, that's an

25 area in Foca. And it became clear then what the positions of the various

Page 32296

1 religious leaders who had come from various parts of the former

2 Yugoslavia were. Now, as for our rally that was at the stadium - and I'm

3 referring -- I don't think there were any priests or any religious

4 personalities.

5 Q. Thank you. What about the religious buildings, were they used in

6 the war effort?

7 A. Well, absolutely they contributed to the war effort, they were

8 used, the premises. I think you can see it in one of the statements of

9 Sahinpasic, who said that he was surprised when he found in Ustikolina in

10 the mosque building over 100 rifles. I believe there was several other

11 mosques. At Gornje Polje, I believe there was one. I can't recall what

12 its name was. There was even training being organised there. The first

13 person who was killed, the first of our men, Serbian, he was killed from

14 the minaret, from a mosque minaret. So the Muslim religious buildings in

15 Foca served as warehouses. The same is true of the Sajina [phoen] mosque

16 in Donje Polje. It was used as a warehouse and he was involved in the

17 sales of vegetables and fruit -- well, he too was involved and that

18 mosque too was used for warehousing Muslims -- arms. Although the town

19 itself was -- had a Muslim majority. Now, the services, the religious

20 services, were held on Sunday, every Sunday, and I don't think you could

21 observe anything on those occasions.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, how many mosques were there in that general area

23 all together, can you tell us?

24 A. Well, I can't tell you for certain but about four or five but I

25 believe only two were active. In other words, the others did not have

Page 32297

1 any religious service organised on their premises.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, was it risky to store weapons and ammunition in

3 those facilities in the town and were there any other -- was there any

4 other war-related equipment that was held there?

5 A. Well, I don't know, but in this one mosque there was so many of

6 these anti-tank shells and I don't know where that would have come from.

7 There was also an explosion in Aladji [phoen] mosque. There was a rumour

8 going around when this mosque was blown up, it was sometime in early

9 fall, I had been wounded and was in Belgrade for treatment. Now, I know

10 that the mosque was blown up at the time. There was some 200 kilogrammes

11 of explosives there. Now, whether the mosque was mined, or rather, blown

12 up by the Serbs or whether it was spontaneous, we don't know, but it was

13 a very strong explosion. Now, my place was about 200 metres away from

14 there and all the windows were broken as a result of the explosion. But

15 as I said, I was in Belgrade at the time so I wasn't a witness.

16 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

17 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, again the entire passages here

19 is -- has nothing to do with the statement and the information that the

20 Prosecution was notified of. It seems to me that here Mr. Karadzic tries

21 to basically repeat the testimony of the previous witness from Foca and

22 it has nothing to do whatsoever with the witness's evidence so far in the

23 past.

24 JUDGE KWON: I take your point, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

25 Mr. Karadzic, while every detail of viva voce evidence should be

Page 32298

1 notified to the other party, but I think this issue has never been

2 discussed in his earlier statement or your notification. Do you

3 understand that, Mr. Karadzic?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency, but I believe

5 it was discussed in detail that mosques were used as warehouses for

6 weaponry and ammunition and other equipment. This was in paragraphs 17,

7 21, and I'm referring to the unredacted version. Very well.

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Pljevaljcic, could you just tell us one last thing. Seeing

10 that the Muslims were arming, what did the Serbs do, did they start

11 arming?

12 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer, Mr. Pljevaljcic, yes,

13 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This reference by Mr. Karadzic to

15 paragraph 17 is entirely incorrect. It's basically dealing with one

16 mosque being mentioned here and that's the Saja mosque one year before

17 the war having had weaponry in it.

18 JUDGE KWON: Ustikolina.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

20 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

21 Let me see the last question -- yes -- let's leave it --

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But in paragraph 21 --

23 JUDGE KWON: Do you remember the last question, Mr. Pljevaljcic?

24 Can you answer the question?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember. As for arming --

Page 32299

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. I believe the Presiding Judge was referring to the previous

3 question before this whole conversation referring to the mosques. Am I

4 correct, Your Honour?

5 JUDGE KWON: No, no, we leave the mosque there. Your last

6 question seems to be this: Seeing that the Muslims were arming, what did

7 the Serbs do? Did they start arming? That was the last question.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understood and that's what I

9 was going to answer to. There was only a reserve complement of the

10 police. They were the only ones who armed. There were -- the Serbs also

11 had a lot of hunting weapons and there was a warehouse not far from the

12 town itself where the civilian Defence had its weapons, but there weren't

13 many weapons there. Some infantry weapons and that's all. That was in

14 the area that was under the control of the Serbs. Now, when the conflict

15 broke out on the following day, the Serbs managed to get some of the

16 weapons from that warehouse. The Serbs could not obtain any other

17 weapons because the former Yugoslavia and the Army of the former

18 Yugoslavia was nowhere near Foca. There was a barrack in Ustikolina;

19 however, that was under the control of the Muslims. And over 80 per cent

20 of the population probably was Muslim so that the Ustikolina barrack was

21 under Muslim control. We didn't have any other help, any other

22 assistance, either from Sarajevo or any place else because Foca was

23 almost blocked totally, cut off. Trnovo was under the Muslim control, so

24 was Gorazde.

25 Now, after the conflict broke out, part of the weapons were

Page 32300

1 obtained, the Serbs received part of the weapons, from the then-Yugoslav

2 army. But as I said, they didn't have any infantry weapons before the

3 conflict broke out, they did have hunting weapons, but they also managed

4 to get some weapons when they broke into this warehouse which was not far

5 from Foca.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Thank you. Who was it who took all the weapons from the

8 Territorial Defence that belonged to various communities and companies,

9 local communes and companies?

10 A. Well, the only weapons that were there were the weapons used by

11 the MUP. They had fire-arms, automatic rifles. Now, the Muslims took

12 their weapons. The Serbs took their weapons from these facilities. But

13 as I said, this warehouse, the civilian protection warehouse, was in the

14 area that was under the control of the Serbs. And they took part of

15 that -- a part of that cache of weapons, but they didn't have a lot of

16 weapons because the civilian protection didn't really own a lot of

17 weapons but there were no military companies in Foca so there were no

18 weapons within companies themselves.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, could you tell us briefly, describe the outbreak

20 of the conflict, who started it, how it started, who opened fire, and who

21 was killed.

22 A. Well, I mentioned a bit -- I spoke a little earlier about the

23 barricades. First they were built roadblocks by the Muslim people some

24 three days before the conflict broke out. The first civilian victim in

25 Foca was in Vukovina village some 12 to 15 kilometres away from Foca in

Page 32301

1 the direction of Cajnice, when a woman, the wife of the late

2 Manojlo Jankovic was killed and his daughter was wounded as they were

3 tending to their garden. Now, later on the unfortunate Manojlo was also

4 killed. He didn't want to open the door but they shot fire through the

5 door and we found him dead inside. So the first victims were Serbs.

6 Now, the first houses that were set on fire were -- and this happened a

7 day after the conflict broke out. This happened in Foca. I believe

8 these were the houses of a man called Kovac and then Milisav Kovacevic.

9 There was also the house of Milisav Obrenovic and Boza Drakulic. So

10 there were four to five houses that were in a row and they were in the

11 area that was predominantly Muslim. Now, these houses were the first

12 that were burnt down. The first rapes in Foca that occurred was the rape

13 of a Serb woman who was raped before the eyes of her husband. This too

14 was in the area that was under Muslim control and I believe that this

15 woman testified before this Court.

16 Q. Can we just please briefly go into private session so that the

17 witness can mention the name of the victim who testified in a trial here?

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I think that's not relevant

19 because we have heard that before, that when one side does something bad

20 doesn't -- that's tu quoque.

21 JUDGE KWON: I was wondering at all how this witness could know

22 that witness testified with protective measures here at the Tribunal.

23 Would you like us to know the name of the victim? I don't think

24 it's necessary.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's just for credibility's sake,

Page 32303

1 JUDGE KWON: No, no. You are supposed to answer the question put

2 by the accused, Mr. Karadzic. If necessary, Mr. Karadzic will ask the

3 question.

4 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You mentioned some ladies working in a field. How did that

8 reflect on the atmosphere in Foca, the first casualties and the first

9 fires that broke out? What kind of situation did that bring about in

10 Foca in terms of how people felt?

11 A. The first cases of arson and the first shellings caused panic in

12 Foca. So the day after the first shelling there were rivers of both

13 Serbs and Muslims who headed towards Montenegro and Serbia. You know

14 what it's like when you spend a whole night under shells, it's a dreadful

15 thing and nobody who has not been through that kind of an experience can

16 possibly understand what it's like. So there was general panic that

17 started affecting the civilian population. There were large convoys of

18 people leaving town. Many of the Muslims took shelter in various rooms

19 in the Serb-controlled territory where there was a Muslim minority. The

20 civilian authorities set up guards and found people who protected these

21 groups, but most of the Muslims fled to Serbia and Montenegro. Those who

22 remained were secured by the Serbs. This was on a voluntarily basis.

23 The Serbs made sure there were buses available to take these people away

24 and I think there were over a hundred buses that were used to take

25 Muslims to Sandzak, to Novi Pazar, and to Skopje.

Page 32304

1 Many of the Muslims were put up in the surrounding villages that

2 were Serb controlled. Over at my place there was a Muslim family with

3 two children; they left in safety. I was actually the one who drove them

4 there. So there was a general chaos that ensued after the first shelling

5 and the first fires.

6 Q. Thank you very much. Just for credibility, can you give us the

7 name of that family that you welcomed in your home for a while and then

8 helped them to leave?

9 A. Yes. It was the Kuloglija family. The lady's name was Senada,

10 she was a court officer in Foca, and at one point fled to my village

11 which was ethnically pure, as I said. She stayed there with her two

12 under-aged children, two sons, one aged about 12 or 13 and the other

13 about 7 or 8. There were other examples like that.

14 Q. Thank you. Who was behind the shelling which you suggest caused

15 chaos to arise in Foca? What date was that and what time of day exactly?

16 A. It was the Muslims from a nearby hill just outside Foca called

17 Sis te. They started shelling a Serb settlement called Cerezluk. They

18 used a multiple rocket-launcher for the shelling and there was also a

19 mortar that was used. The Serbs had no weapons at the time so they were

20 unable to fire back at the Muslims. The next day after the shelling had

21 stopped there was mayhem and panic in Foca. The next day infantry

22 fighting erupted. So the shelling first started on the evening of the

23 8th and then the next day people were fighting using small arms. And the

24 first fighter, Rogoljub Trivkovic [phoen] was killed in Alaca [phoen].

25 He was killed by a bullet fired from the mosque there. There was an

Page 32305

1 initial round of negotiations that took place. I negotiated with

2 Halilovic because the next day they started shelling the right river-bank

3 as well of the Ceotina river. I spoke to Halilovic and I tried to reason

4 with him. There was a phone line they were using while the phone lines

5 were still operating, so he used that to get in touch with a Muslim

6 colleague to plead with him to stop the shelling the right river-bank

7 which was predominantly Serb, where there were also Muslims there. There

8 were 33 Muslims staying in a large room in a house there. We offered

9 them shelter there and all these people, the 33 Muslims, later safely

10 left Foca.

11 So Halilovic called this colleague of his on the other side who

12 was on top of that hill and he said, "Stop shelling the right river-bank

13 because we're all together here, Serbs and Muslims alike." And, well,

14 one thing I can tell you, the shelling stopped, but then infantry

15 fighting erupted in the city itself.

16 Q. Who was it who was defending and who was attacking at the time?

17 This infantry fighting that you're talking about, what did that look

18 like?

19 A. Well, you know how it was. There was a part of town that was

20 Serb-controlled, and naturally it was the Serbs who were defending that

21 particular part of town. As for the Muslim part of town, that's on the

22 right river-bank. As far as the hospital and the KP Dom, that was Muslim

23 controlled and that's where the barricades sprang up and that's where the

24 fiercest of the fighting occurred as well. The Muslim headquarters was

25 in the Focatrans compound. After the first shelling there were many

Page 32306

1 civilians who fled there to the headquarters. People were saying about

2 500 persons. As Serbs were advancing in terms of this infantry fighting,

3 the Muslims were retreating towards Gorazde. So the headquarters left

4 the Focatrans compound. People were saying there were 500 Muslims

5 retreating along with the HQ in the direction of Ustikolina and further

6 on towards Gorazde because they still controlled that part of the

7 territory at that time.

8 Q. Thank you. How did it come about that the Serbs prevailed

9 although they were not as well organised and certainly not as well armed

10 as you suggested?

11 A. This is how it went. Focatrans caused a lot of harm to the

12 Serbs, that's true, but this was the one instance where it actually

13 helped, where it was useful. The Serbs could never come to terms with

14 each other in Foca, and it was all Focatrans' fault, and then the severe

15 beatings perpetrated by the special forces who had been sent from

16 Sarajevo. So obviously there was a lot of determination to take Foca and

17 to put it under control on their part. But what I'm saying is that it

18 took a mere four -- five or six days to take Foca. There weren't really

19 that many casualties. All together I think a total of ten casualties and

20 that's on both sides, so very few casualties, and the Serbs were now in

21 control with no assistance from any other quarters, not from the

22 Serbian Democratic Party leadership, not from the JNA. The Serbs

23 self-organised thanks to Focatrans because Focatrans, those people came

24 to their senses, and then it was possible to organise themselves, which

25 was unlike the Serbs in a way. And the Serbs proceeded to free the

Page 32307

1 territory of their municipality. So the entire municipal territory of

2 Foca was free in a matter of months.

3 I'll give you an example. I was wounded on the

4 14th of July, 1992, at Cerva Ravna. That is what the place is called

5 which straddles the border between Foca and Gorazde. That was in

6 July 1992. And when Dayton came along the Serbs were still there. They

7 never budged from that spot. They never made any incursions into Gorazde

8 municipality at all. And the situation was like that along the entire

9 line being held by the Serbs at the time. They freed the territory from

10 armed bandits, from armed Muslim groups, they freed all of Foca's

11 municipal territory and they kept it like that until the end of the war.

12 There were two offensives launched by the Muslims trying to get it back,

13 but Alija Izetbegovic was unable to hold on to Foca. After Foca had

14 fallen he said he felt very bad about this, about Foca falling in

15 particular, and that he would never be able to forgive the Muslims for

16 allowing Foca to fall into Serb hands.

17 Q. And what about the predominantly Muslim parts of Foca, was that

18 under control at the time as well?

19 A. The last place that the Serbs managed to free was Tjentiste and

20 Sutjeska. That was the last location that was liberated by the Serbs.

21 And then they took a couple of months to cleanse the whole territory of

22 Muslim armed units and then it was fully under control. There were

23 incursions being launched by Muslims throughout the war, resulting in so

24 many casualties. You know about Josanica, you know about Jabuka, you

25 know what happened at Gornji Miljevina. Every time the Muslims launched

Page 32308

1 an operation, it would result in no fewer than 60 civilian casualties on

2 our side of the front line, people who were actually massacred.

3 Q. Can you tell the Chamber briefly about Josanica and all these

4 other villages? What exactly was it that happened there?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.

6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We have now an attempt again to get

8 tu quoque evidence in here.

9 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to respond or are you minded --

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] By all means. By all means,

11 Your Excellency. We are certainly not trying to justify anyone or

12 anything here, but events are related, there is a causal link between

13 these events. It's not about justifying. What we need to do is try and

14 understand what it means to kill 60 civilians in a single village and

15 that is merely something I'm using in order to introduce the next

16 question I have for this witness.

17 JUDGE KWON: Since you said so, I don't understand your causal

18 link between these events. Could you explain it to us?

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Excellency.

20 This is what I mean. For example, were the Serbs planning something?

21 Was this part of the plan or were these moves caused by fear and by

22 precedence in terms of people getting killed the day before, for example?

23 Because what the Serb community is doing today is very much a result of

24 what the Muslims did the day before. I'm trying to ascertain whether

25 this was a civil war chaos or whether there was actually a plan, a Serb

Page 32309

1 plan, at work here.

2 JUDGE KWON: No, Mr. Pljevaljcic, this is not a question for you.

3 Just could you just exercise your patience a bit further.

4 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the attack on the village of

6 Jabuka, that is a matter from July 1992. It has nothing to do with the

7 outbreak of the war and nothing to do with the crimes that are charged.

8 It's basically -- it is tu quoque evidence, and it has nothing -- you

9 cannot justify the beginning of the war and what happened in Foca with

10 something that happened in July 1992.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber agrees with

13 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff's observation as to the relevance.

14 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, if I could just point out that

15 scheduled incident 5.4 in schedule A charges a killing in the

16 municipality of Foca that took place in July of 1992.

17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

18 Schedule -- what's the number of schedule C?

19 MR. ROBINSON: Schedule A and it's item 5.4.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour --

21 JUDGE KWON: How is it related to this village of Jabuka,

22 Mr. Robinson, since you raised that issue?

23 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, and I myself don't know and

24 perhaps either the witness or Dr. Karadzic could relate that, but in any

25 event, events which occurred in the municipality in July of 1992 were

Page 32310

1 clearly relevant in the indictment. We're not even limited to the

2 scheduled incidents. That's just an example. But I just thought it was

3 necessary to point it out since Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff was taking the

4 position that only events leading to the outbreak of war were relevant.

5 So it seems to me that even absent a direct link between the two events,

6 the fact that the indictment encompasses events in July 1992 makes

7 Dr. Karadzic's question relevant and his point valid, that in order to

8 understand these events it's necessary to see it from both sides, not

9 simply the one side.

10 JUDGE KWON: You're saying that absent a direct link between

11 these two events. And Mr. Karadzic mentioned causal links.

12 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Just to be very specific, Jabuka is in the

14 direction of Gorazde, while the village Mjesaja/Trosanj is in the

15 direction of Tjentiste, just the opposite direction, the other end of the

16 Foca municipality. And when there were -- there occurred an attack, it

17 can possibly have nothing to do with what happens between -- on the front

18 line -- along the front line between Gorazde and Foca.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think a single answer by the

20 witness can clarify the whole issue.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, what was your question?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness mentioned that I was

24 aware of what happened at Josanica, Jabuka, and so on and so forth. I'm

25 aware of that but the Chamber may not be. So then I proceeded to ask the

Page 32311

1 witness to tell us what happened there, because the witness himself saw

2 fit to point out the important role that these incidents played in the

3 overall events. That is why I asked him to elaborate on that. I know

4 what happened there but I want the Chamber to know too. This is a link

5 established by the witness himself in his testimony. He said that what

6 happened there affected the further course of events.

7 JUDGE KWON: And what is your submission as to the relevance to

8 your case?

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.

10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I was asking the witness --

11 the accused --

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yeah, but I wanted to -- I should have done

13 that actually earlier. The witness is listening to this submission all

14 the time. I think it would be better if he would put off his earphones

15 because this discussion may basically influence him.

16 THE ACCUSED: I may speak in English too so if you need --

17 JUDGE KWON: No, it's being translated as well --

18 THE ACCUSED: No, no, if he removes the headphones then ...

19 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber doesn't consider the

22 question is relevant. Could you move on -- or given the time shall we

23 take a break now?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, that's a good idea. I would

25 need another 15 minutes after the break, the same amount of time that was

Page 32312

1 taken up by the objections just now.

2 JUDGE KWON: We'll take a break for half an hour and resume at

3 five past 11.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

6 JUDGE KWON: I'm afraid I have mention that we have to continue

7 to sit pursuant to 15 bis for the remainder of today, and with respect to

8 the points Mr. Robinson raised earlier today the Chamber has decided to

9 have a hearing at quarter past 2.00 with the attorney and the

10 representative of the Registry present at the courtroom.

11 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE KWON: That means that we'll stop hearing the witness at

13 quarter past 2.00 and continue to that hearing.

14 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Pljevaljcic, you mentioned that -- actually, first I would

18 like to clarify this: Which part of Foca stayed outside of the Serb

19 control and was under the control of the Muslims?

20 A. Are you thinking of the period?

21 Q. In 1992, right away.

22 A. Tjentiste was under the control of the Muslims in 1992 then

23 Ustikolina and a part of Slatina for a brief period. This was the part

24 of Slatina that links on to Cajnice and Gorazde.

25 Q. Thank you. And which part of Foca became the Muslim municipality

Page 32313

1 of Foca Ustikolina according to the Dayton Accord?

2 A. Well, that's the part of the territory facing Gorazde, so in

3 Dayton that was conceived as Foca Ustikolina. So the Muslims did not

4 manage to achieve their intentions regarding Foca so they were awarded

5 this additional part, Foca Ustikolina. But that area that faces Gorazde

6 is quite a large territory.

7 Q. Thank you. And in negotiations would the Muslims have been given

8 a larger territory for Foca municipality?

9 A. Well, in any case they would have because there was 1500 more

10 Muslims in terms of the population in Foca, so they would have been

11 awarded more. At least 70 or 80 per cent of the villages gravitating

12 around Foca were Muslim villages. The majority of the villages were

13 Muslim, so in any event they would have received more.

14 Q. And in the town itself what was the majority population?

15 A. I think that there were more Serbs, some 5- to 600 more Serbs,

16 and overall in the territory of Foca there were some 1500 Muslims more.

17 Q. Thank you. Well, could we just make sure to make pauses between

18 question and answer. Now let's talk about the Muslim villages that

19 stayed under the control of the Serbs and which were cleansed of

20 fighters, Muslim fighters. What happened to the Muslim civilians in

21 those villages?

22 A. All the villages around Foca which were predominantly Muslim. In

23 the cleansing, most of the Muslim able-bodied men fled towards Gorazde.

24 Those who stayed, they stayed a little bit closer. Because I said

25 earlier that Foca was the second-largest municipality in Yugoslavia so

Page 32314

1 those people went to the outlying neighbourhoods. Some of them went to

2 the town neighbourhoods in Foca so that it would be easier to make sure

3 that they were secure. I said that on the right bank of the Cehotina

4 river there were 33 civilians, women and children. They were placed

5 there. They spent a few days there. They would go to feed their cattle

6 from time to time and the same thing applied to the left bank. There was

7 a collection centre in a Muslim house, but there were guards everywhere.

8 The authorities and the Foca Crisis Staff assigned people who guarded

9 those families in three shifts. They guarded those civilians. There is

10 an example in Codor Mahala. When the conflict broke out in Foca some of

11 these let's call them volunteers or paramilitary members came in those

12 initial first few days, some 30 of them, and one of them tried to enter

13 Codor Mahala to get to those civilians, and he was killed by the guards

14 that were posted there. So the Serbs had a lot of problems during those

15 couple of days with the paramilitary members or the volunteers, whatever

16 they were called. There was also shelter in another area and I know for

17 a fact that civilian authorities assigned guards everywhere and that the

18 guards were functioning and the point of the guards was precisely to

19 prevent undesirable persons from entering those places.

20 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that the village civilian population

21 sought shelter in Foca and they could go to their villages to take care

22 of their livestock. Did they find shelter in the part of Foca that was

23 under the control of the Serb side?

24 A. Of course they went to the part controlled by the Serb side.

25 These shelters were all over in that section. As for Foca itself, the

Page 32315

1 town was liberated in some three to four days, this is the town itself.

2 But then there were the outlying areas around Foca that were left but

3 this didn't take more than ten days other than the villages that I

4 mentioned.

5 Q. Thank you. Well, let's clarify one thing. These guards

6 prevented unauthorised entrances to the shelters. Did they also prevent

7 the Muslims from going out from the shelters, Muslim civilians?

8 A. Of course they did. Whoever, Muslim or a Muslim family, wanted

9 to go out, they would get permission from the guards. They would seek

10 this permission to be allowed to leave. They could go out towards

11 Niksic, towards Montenegro, and also towards Serbia but via Montenegro

12 through Plijevlja [phoen]. The majority of the Muslims, as I said, left

13 in our transport, buses and so on, whoever wanted to. Those who did not

14 want to stayed. I know a few cases. There's Dr. Zijo who stayed and he

15 was there I think until late July or August. And then Suljo Hajric who

16 is currently in Norway somewhere. He stayed with his wife and son and

17 daughter, also until late July or early August. I also have a colleague

18 who worked at the KP Dom with me. He was there until the end of August,

19 I think. There were people, Muslims, who did not wish to leave, and they

20 stayed there. They lived normally in the same way that we did. I think

21 that the Red Cross helped all of those Muslim families with food and

22 other necessities, but those who wanted to leave, they left. They were

23 provided with transportation and nobody was expelled. I have a hard time

24 with people saying that they were expelled. No one was expelled, but the

25 paramilitary formations were expelled -- well, actually they were not

Page 32316

1 expelled. They were fleeing in front of Serbian forces, but then they

2 would come back and make incursions around Gorazde and Josanica and I

3 wanted to clarify some things about that but I was not allowed to.

4 Q. Thank you. Let's just clarify one thing. In terms of

5 terminology, you were going -- you were talking about departures, but

6 what I was saying was were they allowed to leave these facilities to get

7 food, to go to their village, take care of livestock? This is what I

8 meant.

9 A. Of course they were permitted to do that. It was allowed, but

10 villages that are 10 to 20 kilometres away from Foca, it didn't occur to

11 anyone, Serbs were Muslims, to go up there, because it was deserted. The

12 Muslims who were close by in the outskirts of the town, they were allowed

13 to go. As for food, they would go to shops and whatever was there in the

14 shops that was available. They would go out and buy these things. They

15 lived just as the Serbs did.

16 Q. Thank you. Other than the civilians from the villages, were

17 there any Muslim civilians from the town itself who stayed who did not

18 escape during the fighting?

19 A. Yes, there were. There was a goldsmith. Unfortunately he died a

20 couple of years ago. He was there throughout the whole war. There were

21 a few other Muslims who were there. There were Muslims in our army.

22 There was a Muslim who was killed in our ranks. He fought in our ranks.

23 There were some other Muslims who were there throughout the whole war,

24 men and women, and who are living in Foca to this very day.

25 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us the Trial Chamber what the

Page 32317

1 difference is between those who escaped or who left -- well, I don't mean

2 left freely to Serbia and Montenegro, but who fled to Gorazde under --

3 territory under Muslim control and those who dared to remain in areas

4 under Serb control, what was the decisive factor here?

5 A. The distinction here is that those who stayed, they accepted us

6 normally as their brothers, let's say, and they had decided to live

7 together with us. Those who escaped or who were expelled, they were

8 expelled because they were armed. Those who went to Gorazde, they had

9 the idea that they wanted to dominate in Foca, and this is something that

10 we will see later. We can talk about that later, about these Islamic

11 periodicals associated with "Vox" regarding the green transfers of

12 corridor on that topic, they escaped to Gorazde and were counting on

13 coming back and they even tried that in a number of offensives to come

14 back to Foca and were hoping to keep Foca as a Muslim community, which is

15 what they wanted.

16 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that you found out that the Serb

17 negotiators would be caught, members of parliament, and that they would

18 be killed and that there was a list of sorts of more prominent Serbs who

19 were earmarked for arrests and liquidations. How did you know this?

20 A. I told you, we knew this on the first day, before the conflict

21 broke out. This is when the negotiations were completed about the

22 division of Foca. And there were two of our negotiators there,

23 Vojislav Bodiroga and Radojica Mladjenovic there, and they just managed

24 to avoid being lynched in the early evening. They told us this, these

25 people are still alive and they're still living in Foca today. So the

Page 32318

1 final negotiations were never actually completed, and it seems that the

2 Muslims did not really put much effort into the negotiations because they

3 were 100 per cent sure that Foca would fall into their hands and that

4 things would turn out the way they planned and intended for things to

5 happen and then the special forces when they came to Foca you could tell

6 by what the Muslims were shouting from their balconies what it was that

7 they were preparing for the Serbian people in Foca.

8 Q. Thank you. And which year are you talking about now? Was this

9 the intervention before the elections in 1990?

10 A. Yes, all of this happened in 1990 before the elections when the

11 special forces came. In fact, since the strikers' negotiations in

12 Sarajevo, there were strikers, both Serbs and Muslims, they went to

13 Sarajevo for negotiations to the Federal Assembly and since --

14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We are now in the year 1990 and we are now

16 into the topic of the Focatrans strikers. I think that was not -- that's

17 not relevant here in the view of the Trial Chamber.

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, if you have any specific

19 observation I would like you to move on. Unless you have any specific

20 observation, please move on.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to clarify whether

22 that was that intervention and whether there was another intervention

23 after that, but we will finish that topic.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Pljevaljcic, what was your understanding and your evaluation

Page 32319

1 of those Muslims who did not escape to Gorazde nor did they seek to cross

2 into territory under the control of Muslim authorities but wanted to go

3 to Serbia and Montenegro? Were these peace-loving people? How did you

4 understand this and was the attitude of the Serbian authorities towards

5 these people?

6 A. Most of these people were Muslims, normal people, many people are

7 normal. They simply voiced their desire to leave the war-afflicted areas

8 to go to a different area. Later they came back, some of them sold their

9 property, some of them returned, those people in the outlying areas they

10 came back, but all those people remained on good terms with us, with the

11 majority. Those people and most of us are sharing good mutual relations.

12 I have an example of a person who's still alive, Muratovic who left.

13 Sisic who went to Skopje. I gave him some money, whatever I had. They

14 needed it. We said good-bye. We exchanged -- we kissed each other

15 good-bye. I mean, all of these people went of their own free will.

16 Q. Thank you. And was any property confiscated by the authorities?

17 I'm not talking about robberies and lootings. Those Muslims who left,

18 did any of them experience any kind of pressure regarding the status of

19 their property?

20 A. No, I'm not aware of that. I don't know that anything was

21 confiscated by the authorities unless you mean the paramilitary forces

22 who would, let's say, find a vehicle and then confiscate it. That was a

23 normal occurrence during the war, but as for the authorities or the army

24 there was no immovable property being confiscated or mobilised.

25 Q. Thank you. What was the position of the civilian authorities,

Page 32320

1 the Crisis Staff, and then the civilian authorities? What was their

2 position and what was their conduct toward or treatment of the Muslim

3 population?

4 A. Well, I believe they were treated fairly. I think they were

5 treated the same way that we were treated because they were considered to

6 be citizens, and since the Muslim military leadership had left of course

7 the Serbian authorities, the Crisis Staff, took over and they treated

8 them in the same way that they treated us. There was absolutely no

9 difference in that.

10 Q. Thank you. Do you know when the Muslims began to organise

11 themselves militarily and do you know the name Halid Cengic and what his

12 role was in it?

13 A. I believe that the two key persons that were involved in the

14 arming of the Muslims in Foca were that particular Halid and Sahinpasic,

15 also known as Saja. They were wealthy individuals, they had money, and

16 most of the arming was done through them. I didn't know this Halid

17 person. I heard that he worked in Ustikolina but I didn't know him. I

18 did know the Sahinpasic, but in any case everything had to do with these

19 two people. He was an administrative persons or director or something

20 like that I heard later on when the Muslims took over -- well, in any

21 case I didn't know him.

22 Q. You didn't know Cengic?

23 A. No, I did not personally.

24 Q. Thank you. You mentioned Sahinpasic, is that the same Sahinpasic

25 that you mentioned earlier as the owner and the editor of "Vox," a Muslim

Page 32321

1 publication?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I have no time to show you the "Vox" paper now, but could you

4 just for the Trial Chamber -- could you tell the Trial Chamber what type

5 of publication that was and what they issued and what this caused in --

6 among the Serb population?

7 A. Well, this "Vox" magazine, I believe, or publication began coming

8 out at the same time as the events with Focatrans, but I think officially

9 it was established in October 1991. But this newspaper or this

10 publication was aimed at the Muslims and they would provide guide-lines

11 to the Muslims what they were to do. And this was consistent with what

12 happened or what was happening at Focatrans. There were -- there was an

13 article published. There was some ten items mentioned there as to what

14 it was that was supposed to be done with the Serbs there.

15 Q. Thank you. Mr. Pljevaljcic, could you please tell us one more

16 time who it was who started the shelling and the fighting? Which side

17 was it who started the whole thing?

18 A. Well, I can state with full responsibility that the shelling of

19 Foca began on the 8th of April, 1992, and that it was conducted by Muslim

20 forces, that they shelled the town from a multiple rocket-launcher from

21 the Siste hill and there was also or were also some mortars there. Now,

22 on the following day the Serbs engaged the Muslims in infantry fighting

23 because they didn't have any other weapons, and everything that

24 transpired on those first couple of days - I state this with full

25 responsibility - the Serbs only reacted to what the Muslims started. The

Page 32322

1 first casualties were Serb. The houses of worship that were destroyed,

2 the first ones were Serb. The rape -- the rapes that began, the first

3 casualty was a Serb woman. And everything that the Serbs did was in

4 reaction to what the Muslims started.

5 Q. Thank you. Now just one other question: What were the phone

6 lines like at the time and when did you manage to establish any kind of

7 communication with the central authorities, the government, at Pale?

8 A. At the very beginning and just prior to the war, we had no help

9 from or any contact with the Serb authorities at Pale or with the army,

10 the Yugoslav army. I've already mentioned this. We organised ourselves

11 and all this thanks to Focatrans because then we came to our senses,

12 seeing what they were doing, and we -- and the Muslims had assistance

13 from Muslim units that came from Sarajevo, that were ordered from

14 Sarajevo. And their job was to sow fear and show Serbs what they could

15 expect.

16 Q. What were the phone lines like and were you able to get any

17 instructions from the Serb authorities at Pale?

18 A. Well, no. There were -- the lines were down. I believe it was

19 only the first two or so days that the communications were still

20 operational but I believe that this central node, the communications node

21 was in Gorazde, and that the Muslims just broke it, they cut it off. And

22 as for everything else, everything was down, all the lines were down.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 JUDGE KWON: Although the witness has already answered the

25 question. Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

Page 32323

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, basically since we started this

2 second session, the witness is addressing issues that were neither

3 notified in the 65 ter summary nor in the statement that we got. I just

4 wanted to mark this point, that he's addressing all sorts of topics that

5 the Prosecution was not aware of.

6 JUDGE KWON: So you're not asking to delay your

7 cross-examination, are you?

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's definitely in the

9 interests of justice for the Prosecution to be afforded adequate

10 opportunity to prepare for the cross-examination, and I think I would

11 have a basis for a request for the postponement of the cross-examination.

12 However, in order to not disrupt these proceedings even more than became

13 apparent this morning, I'm actually able to do the cross-examination

14 without postponing it.

15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you very much.

16 I think you're done, Mr. Karadzic.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Thank you and I

18 thank the witness. I have no further questions at this time.

19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

20 Cross-examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

21 Q. Good day, Mr. Pljevaljcic. Can you hear me?

22 A. Yes, I can. Good day to you too.

23 Q. If I understand you correctly, in the beginning of your testimony

24 you mentioned that you were spending the days of the start of the

25 conflict in a Serb village. What was the name of this village?

Page 32324

1 A. The name of that village is Orahovo.

2 Q. And when did you return to Foca?

3 A. I returned to Foca some four or five days later when it was

4 liberated, but as I was the company commander I was with my troops

5 between Foca and my village, in that stretch approximately, and my

6 village was some 5 to 6 kilometres away from Foca. Well simply, we were

7 guarding the village.

8 Q. And I understand that you were wounded on the 14th of July and

9 from then onwards you were in Belgrade; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you returned somewhere in 1993; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Let me address first an issue that relates to finding of combat

14 equipment in the cellar of the Focatrans and finding of other military

15 equipment on trucks. Can I -- I would ask that Exhibit P3033 be brought

16 up on the screen, please. And as it is coming up -- it's only in

17 English. We have only the English version. It is the expert report of

18 military expert Theunens that he prepared for this case, and can we

19 please have page 51 of this report. Can we focus a bit on the second

20 part of the page.

21 Sir, the military expert cites here from the JNA vojni leksikon

22 the definitions of the TO and its structure, and it says here:

23 "It is organised in all socio-political communities, republic,

24 provinces, municipalities, OUR, organisation of associated labour and MZ,

25 local communities."

Page 32325

1 And a bit further down it states that it is equipped to lead

2 armed combat independently or in co-ordination with the JNA.

3 Mr. Pljevaljcic, Focatrans was a complex organisation of

4 associated labour; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And it had three main organisations of associated labour;

7 correct?

8 A. Yes, the three so-called OOURs.

9 Q. And the Focatrans company was a quite significant organisation of

10 associated labour and it had its own TO unit, did it not?

11 A. No, Focatrans did not have their own TO unit. They -- it only

12 had a service -- a security service of sorts, a guards service. These

13 were five men who were armed with pistols. They guarded the gate, opened

14 the gate and closed it, and checked who went in or out, nothing else.

15 Q. You yourself were a member of the TO, were you not?

16 A. I was, but at the time it wasn't referred to as

17 Territorial Defence. I was in reserve, so-called reserve, for an

18 extended period of time and I attended military exercises. This was

19 something that everyone who had completed military service would do from

20 time to time. We were in -- at the main site and we were organised and

21 members of these -- well, it wasn't called civilian protection really.

22 It was called civilian battalions that would organise some parades when a

23 general was promoted or something of that sort. And this is when these

24 exercises were held in the area between Ustikolina and --

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the other place.

Page 32326

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the civilian service or the

2 civilian protection had some warehouses but it was only operational and

3 it would only become active if there was, let's say, a natural disaster

4 or something of that nature.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

6 Q. Sir, and when you were called to your duty in what you said was

7 not called TO but reserve TO, you would gather at the Focatrans, would

8 you not?

9 A. No.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

11 A. We only reported with the call-up papers that we would receive

12 from the military section. We would have to show it at our company,

13 which in my case was Focatrans, in order to be able to attend these

14 exercises so that we would justify our being absent for our company. So

15 Focatrans had nothing to do with this nor did any other company.

16 Q. Sir, you already mentioned that you were a company commander.

17 You were the commander of the 3rd Company of the 5th Battalion, were you

18 not?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Sorry, who was the battalion commander?

21 A. Boro Ivanovic.

22 Q. And this battalion was part of the Foca Tactical Group; right?

23 A. Yes.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we please have Exhibit P03354 be brought

25 up on the screen.

Page 32327

1 It should be in both languages.

2 Q. Sir, we have here a combat order of commander Marko Kovac of the

3 7th of July, 1992, and it relates to, inter alia, the area of

4 Cerova ravna and Zebina suma. Sir, Marko Kovac was the commander of the

5 tactical group; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And before that he was a JNA officer; is that correct?

8 A. I didn't know him but I think he was.

9 Q. And he was the commander of a unit of the JNA called Uzice Corps,

10 do you know that?

11 A. No, I never heard that, no.

12 Q. We have information and evidence before this Trial Chamber that

13 the Uzice Corps took part in the fighting in Foca when the war broke out

14 and that the Kalinovik barracks supported this attack on Foca with

15 artillery.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And, Your Honour, just for the orientation

17 it's from KDZ017, KDZ239 and KDZ379.

18 Q. So it's not correct when you say it was only the local Serbs that

19 took part in the attack, isn't it?

20 A. The only thing that is correct is that the local Serbs were

21 involved in liberating Foca. The Uzice Corps had no way of getting to

22 Foca because you have Gorazde between Foca and Uzice. As for Kalinovik,

23 the distance between Foca and Kalinovik is nearly 100 kilometres.

24 Therefore -- as for Trnovo, Trnovo was a Muslim village. Therefore, you

25 can rule out any possibility that the artillery from Kalinovik could

Page 32328

1 possibly have been lending support. As for Tjentiste and

2 Svjetevite [phoen], it -- Sutjeska and Tjentiste remained under the

3 control of the Muslims until that autumn, therefore that possibility can

4 be ruled out in its entirety.

5 Q. Mr. Pljevaljcic, you are aware that a lot of JNA units relocated

6 from the war in Croatia into Bosnia, including the Uzice Corps who was

7 actually relocating from Dalmatia, did it not?

8 A. Yes, that is true and I did know that. There was a single unit,

9 I'm not sure whose, it was about five days before the clashes broke out.

10 They simply passed through Foca and were on their way to Herzegovina.

11 That's what people were saying. They were on their way to Bileca because

12 there was a large military compound there, but they didn't stick around

13 nor, indeed, did they leave any of their equipment there while they were

14 passing through. This was five or six days before the clashes broke out

15 and the Muslims were still in Foca. They simply passed through on their

16 way to Herzegovina and, yes, they said at the time that the unit had

17 originally arrived from a military compound somewhere in Croatia.

18 Q. Sir, you also said that the SDS did not organise the fighters in

19 Foca. It was basically the local Serbs organising themselves and the SDS

20 had nothing to do with this. That's what you said; right?

21 A. Essentially, yes, that's what it was like. The Serbs organised

22 themselves thanks to Focatrans. I can't repeat this often enough.

23 Focatrans came to their senses, as people say, and got the Serbs to

24 finally agree about something and organise themselves and that's what

25 happened. The SDS was the only Serb party in Foca at the time and of

Page 32329

1 course they were working with the Serbs and communicating with the Serbs.

2 So it was a synchronised effort. We organised ourselves. We cleaned up

3 the town ourselves. Whoever returned later on was always welcome and

4 that practice continues to this day.

5 Q. And Miroslav Stanic was the first commander of the Foca military

6 forces; correct?

7 A. He was the president of the Crisis Staff. I think that's what it

8 was called.

9 Q. And he was the head of the SDS in Foca as well; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And the Crisis Staff in Foca was situated -- the SDS Crisis Staff

12 or the Crisis Staff of the Serbs was situated in Cerezluk, near the

13 Orthodox church, was it not, at the beginning of the war?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Let me now return to the exhibit in front of us and can we please

16 have page 4 in the B/C/S and page 3 in the English on the screen. Thank

17 you. As you can see under the header "command post: Ustikolina,

18 barracks," we see here:

19 "The 1st Independent Dragan Nikolic detachment shall take part in

20 the liberation and mop-up of Ilovaca village and beyond as part of one

21 independent battalion."

22 Do you see that ?

23 A. It's difficult to see, but yes I see that. Ilovaca as a village

24 was never liberated nor, indeed, were any attempts made to liberate it.

25 The Serb forces got as far as Ilovaca in their effort to liberate the

Page 32330

1 territory.

2 Q. Sir, let me interrupt you here. My question is: This unit, this

3 Dragan Nikolic detachment, was led by whom?

4 A. Dragan Nikolic himself led the detachment. He was killed on the

5 second or third day of the clashes, I believe, so the commander was

6 killed and the unit was named in his honour.

7 Q. Who led it after he was killed?

8 A. After he was killed, I think Branislav Cosovic was appointed to

9 lead the unit. These were reconnaissance units and they didn't have that

10 many men. There was several such units in Foca. The strength depended.

11 Some had 12 men, some 15, up to 30 at the very most.

12 Q. Sir, you were the vice-president of the veterans' organisation in

13 Foca and so I assume you know a great number of veterans; correct?

14 A. I was president of the war invalids' organisation in Foca and

15 then later I became the vice-president of the veterans' organisation. I

16 remained in that position until I took up my post in the KP Dom.

17 Q. And given your knowledge of the veterans, you know that

18 Zoran Vukovic and Radomir Kovac, Klanfa, and Janko Janic, Tuta, were part

19 of the Dragan Nikolic detachment; is that right?

20 A. I think, I think they were. Tuta was killed I believe at some

21 point, and the other two are alive. I think that they were members of

22 those units.

23 Q. And Janko Janic, Tuta, was killed when an arrest attempt was

24 conducted to arrest him for crimes he had committed, sexual assaults

25 against women; correct?

Page 32331

1 A. Well, you know, he was killed by NATO soldiers. To say that --

2 well, to judge someone before anything has been clearly demonstrated, I

3 don't know if the late Tuta ever raped anyone or not, it's not for me to

4 say. One thing is certain, he was killed during an attempt by NATO to

5 arrest him.

6 Q. And Zoran Vukovic and Radomir Kovac were convicted for rapes here

7 by this Tribunal, rapes committed against, inter alia, women detained in

8 partisan sports hall; correct?

9 A. I really don't know about these things. I was never in that hall

10 myself. I wasn't part of the security detail or anything else. That was

11 in a totally different area. I know that they were convicted. One of

12 them has been released and the other is still in prison. Zaga is still

13 in prison. Was anything proven and was that why they were convicted,

14 that is not for me to say. I know they were tried.

15 Q. And as you just mentioned Zaga, that is Kunarac, the independent

16 Zaga detachment that is mentioned here right after the Dragan Nikolic

17 detachment. It says here:

18 "The independent Zaga Detachment shall take part in mopping-up

19 settled areas in the direction of the 5th Battalion's attack".

20 So that is the unit led by Zaga Kunarac, so to speak; correct?

21 A. Zaga Kunarac was a reconnaissance man, a scout. He had five or

22 six men with him, no more than that. He would make rounds,

23 reconnoitring, bringing back information. That's what he did.

24 Q. Sir, you mentioned in your testimony that there were some

25 undesirable elements such as volunteers. Is that -- are these the people

Page 32332

1 you refer to or who do you mean?

2 A. No. I was referring to volunteers who came from Serbia,

3 predominantly from Serbia and Montenegro, in other words, from other

4 countries. There were none. There were some volunteers from Russia, I

5 heard, in some parts of the theatre of war, but it wasn't a predominant

6 thing. There were maybe 30 or 40 of these men from Serbia and Montenegro

7 and they simply wouldn't stay in line, if you know what I mean. They

8 were just dissolute youngsters who wouldn't obey any orders and they had

9 their own groups. I think they caused probably as much harm to the Serbs

10 as they did to the Muslims. I'm quite certain about that. The

11 Crisis Staff in Foca could hardly wait to be rid of those so-called

12 soldiers and I gave you that example where one of those was killed and

13 then we faced lots of problems in the days just after that killing. They

14 came there to help the Serbs --

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the last

16 part of the witness's answer.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

18 Q. Can you please repeat the last part of your answer because the

19 interpreters didn't hear you.

20 A. Well, as I said, the volunteers who were there were not desirable

21 from the perspective of the Serb authorities in Foca. They caused harm

22 to the Muslims, if indeed they did. But in that case they caused as much

23 harm to the Serbs. They certainly didn't help. They refused to place

24 themselves under the control of the Crisis Staff. They were a law unto

25 themselves and they waged war like that. There would be several of them

Page 32333

1 in a group and if there was a crime that was perpetrated in Foca or its

2 surroundings, it was something that they did independently. The

3 Crisis Staff had no way of establishing control over those men. As I

4 said Foca was the second-largest municipality in the former Yugoslavia so

5 it was an enormous territory and it was very difficult to keep all of

6 that under control.

7 Q. Sir, you spoke about the arming of the Muslims well before the

8 war and you basically gave -- you also gave some examples. The Serbs

9 armed themselves as well. And if I understand your evidence correctly,

10 they started to do so after the Focatrans affair in 1990; correct?

11 A. Well, I said the Serbs armed themselves -- many of the Serbs

12 armed themselves when the civil protection warehouse was broken into.

13 That was the first day after the clashes erupted. The Serbs had small

14 arms. Those who were police reservists did and the hunters did as well.

15 The Muslims armed themselves thanks to Focatrans because that avenue was

16 open to them. That was their logistics --

17 Q. Let me interrupt you here, sir. We don't need to repeat. You

18 have to listen carefully to my question. It was a question about the

19 Serbs arming and you have already mentioned that they took over -- when a

20 warehouse was broken in. But you say Serbs came to their senses after

21 the Focatrans affair. This I understood to mean that they prepared for

22 conflict; right?

23 A. I said that they came to their senses, that they got their wits

24 back, in a manner of speaking, after Focatrans. But his has nothing to

25 do with anyone arming themselves. When I said getting to their senses,

Page 32334

1 that means it finally dawned on them, they finally understood what was in

2 store for them. It has nothing to do with the weapons; that's a separate

3 story which I told you about. As for the Muslims, before the war I gave

4 you that example involving --

5 Q. Let me interrupt you. I didn't ask you about the Muslims. I

6 asked you about the Serbs and I would like you to stick to this question.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we please have now 65 ter number 24394

8 brought up on the screen in both languages, please.

9 Q. And as it is coming up, it is a proposal of Commander Marko Kovac

10 sent to Vojislav Seselj, president of the SRS to party to appoint

11 Gojko Jankovic as Vojvoda and it's dated the 13th of August, 1993.

12 Mr. Pljevaljcic, you know that Gojko Jankovic was one of the local

13 military commanders; correct?

14 A. No, he was not a commander. He was a low-level komandir. It was

15 a reconnaissance unit numbering no more than 30 men so he wasn't a

16 commander. By this time I was in hospital in Belgrade and I was

17 recovering.

18 Q. You know the term "Vojvoda" in the jargon of the SDS party;

19 correct? You know what it means, a Vojvoda?

20 A. It's not a rank. It's not a title bestowed by the SDS. This is

21 something to do with the Serb radical party, what they refer to as the

22 Chetnik Movement. I think the term Vojvoda belongs to them and has

23 nothing to do with the SDS.

24 Q. I may have misspoken or there was a mistranslation. I actually

25 meant to say SRS, Serb Radical Party, so I may have misspoken.

Page 32335

1 Let us see how Marko Kovac for what purpose he makes this

2 proposal and I refer you to paragraph 2. Right after the header

3 "explanation," he refers to Jankovic collecting weapons, organising

4 meetings --

5 A. I'm not receiving interpretation.

6 Q. Oh, sorry. Let's try again. If you look at paragraph 2 of this

7 proposal under the header "explanation," it says -- it refers to Jankovic

8 collecting weapons, organising meetings and rallies, training personnel

9 for the struggle. Reference is also made to Jankovic's experience,

10 having taken part in the struggle against the Ustasha in Croatia and he

11 refers to Jankovic's special detachment with which he participated in the

12 liberation of Foca and other places. Mr. Pljevaljcic, would that be a

13 proper description of what Mr. Jankovic's activities were before and

14 during the war?

15 A. The information that he was involved in Croatia is something that

16 I was not aware of. As for Marko Kovac's proposal for that promotion, I

17 mean Jankovic, he was probably a good fighter. So what's controversial

18 about that? There's nothing controversial from my perspective unless,

19 obviously, this person committed a crime. But if he was a good fighter,

20 if he defended his people, and if his name was put forward for the

21 highest possible rank in the radical party, I see nothing controversial

22 about that. I'm not for a moment there going into -- I'm sorry. I'm not

23 for a moment suggesting that someone did or did not commit a crime.

24 Whoever committed a crime should be held to account for that. But what

25 I'm trying to tell you here is as far as the Foca Crisis Staff is

Page 32336

1 concerned --

2 Q. Sir, sir, I was referring you to -- I was reading, actually, to

3 his activities in collecting weapons, organising meetings and rallies,

4 training personnel. That's not what he did during the war; right? It's

5 what he did before the conflict; is that not right?

6 A. That's not true. I'm sure about that. I know that

7 Gojko Jankovic was a native of Foca, but he actually lived in Herceg-Novi

8 in Montenegro before the clashes broke out, so he wasn't even seen in the

9 area. It cannot possibly be true, therefore. He arrived with his wife

10 and children from Montenegro, from Herceg-Novi, which is a seacoast town,

11 and he made himself available to the Serbs in order to contribute to the

12 defence of his native town. But it is simply not true that he was

13 present at any of the rallies. I don't think there were any. I think

14 there was a single rally when the party was first established and that

15 was about it.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would like to tender this

17 exhibit.

18 MR. ROBINSON: Objection, Mr. President. The witness hasn't been

19 able to confirm anything about what's been said in the exhibit and he

20 indicated he was in Belgrade in August of 1993 when the document was

21 written.

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: First of all, the date of the document isn't

24 really at issue because the content of the document refers to the period

25 when the war started and when the witness was still on the ground in this

Page 32337

1 area and the witness has also confirmed that Gojko Jankovic was a -- the

2 leader of a unit, a reconnaissance unit, and he is basically also for

3 that purpose here proposed to become a Vojvoda. So I think there is

4 some -- there is basis. And just to also mention, it's for impeachment

5 purposes as well.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, the Chamber agrees with

8 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. We'll receive it.

9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6082, Your Honours.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we please have 65 ter 40199B played.

11 And we have -- this is the video -- sorry, it has already a P number. It

12 has a P number. It's P03476.

13 Q. And, sir --

14 JUDGE KWON: You said it is part of a --

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This is what we -- this is actually what we

16 had admitted with the previous Foca witness.

17 JUDGE KWON: I -- when Mr. Vujicic was here we saw part of it.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

19 JUDGE KWON: When you presented that you told us it is part of

20 P3476.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's correct. I misspoke, Your Honour.

22 It's -- can we please have P6081. That's actually the same two excerpts

23 that we heard with the previous witness, and I want to play -- I want to

24 play this first little clip again in relation to what Stanic said about

25 activities before the war.

Page 32338

1 [Video-clip played]

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's wrong -- yeah. We need to hear the

3 voice. Can we please try again. It worked last week.

4 [Video-clip played]

5 JUDGE KWON: If you have another topic, could we come back to

6 this --

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

8 JUDGE KWON: -- clip later on.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The only other option I would think we have

10 is that I could simply read what Mr. Stanic is saying --

11 JUDGE KWON: I see no problem --

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No.

13 Q. Sir, we have looked at this video with another witness last

14 Friday and I simply read to you - you cannot hear now Mr. Stanic saying

15 this, but you can -- you should accept that this is what he is saying --

16 JUDGE KWON: Or we have -- we can upload the transcript --

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

18 JUDGE KWON: -- in both languages.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, yes. That's another option, yes.

20 Q. Sir, if you look at the first short excerpt that you see here a

21 bit blown up, and Mr. Stanic is referring here to the

22 Serbian Democratic Party leaving all political activities aside and began

23 the self-organisation of the Serbian people and he speaks about forming

24 eight battalions which were led by some of the Serbian reserve officers

25 and he refers to a particular event of a battalion being lined up and

Page 32339

1 inspected in June 1991. Sir, this is what Mr. Stanic says about how the

2 Serbs prepared for the conflict and he speaks of June 1991.

3 A. I'm not aware of that. As for battalions forming in 1991, that's

4 something that I don't know anything about. There's no date here even.

5 I don't know.

6 Q. The date is June 1991, at least for the inspection of this

7 battalion.

8 A. What Stanic stated after the beating of the Serbs, that is okay,

9 but that the battalions were formed in 1991 that's something that I am

10 not aware of. I was part of the 5th Battalion but it was not formed in

11 1991. This is an error.

12 Q. Can we focus a bit further down on that same page for the second

13 excerpt. And, Mr. Pljevaljcic, you have only two lines here, the two

14 last lines that you can see here and we need then the B/C/S the next

15 page. And as you can see, he is again referring to the Serbian military

16 organisation being prepared a year before and he mentions here the first

17 commanders --

18 JUDGE KWON: Just a second now. I'm not sure -- I was told that

19 there's no second page -- yeah, the second page in B/C/S.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: There is a second page.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I -- I actually wanted to

22 mention this when the first clip was shown. Can we please know why

23 Mr. Stanic said it was strong? Why was it redacted? What is Stanic

24 talking about? What was strong? That's part of the statement by Stanic.

25 JUDGE KWON: I think it's -- the Prosecution only offered that

Page 32340

1 part --

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We offered both.

3 JUDGE KWON: But Mr. Karadzic was referring to the redacted part.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, the redacted part is --

5 JUDGE KWON: I take it Mr. Karadzic has access to the whole part,

6 doesn't he?

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, he has. And, actually, I have omitted

8 to mention it, Mr. -- when it comes to this second part Mr. Stanic was

9 referring to the Muslims and the Muslim forces being strong.

10 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: "It was strong" refers to the Muslims. Yes.

12 I omitted to say that, sorry. I thought it was in here.

13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If we could have the number --

15 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The entire --

18 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure I understand the explanation, but what

19 I was told that the Registry can't upload the second page. If we

20 collapse English, then can we upload the second page for the benefit of

21 the witness since we have read the English page.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Yes, and I actually can read from the

23 entire -- the entire version of this Stanic interview. It's a

24 question -- sorry. The questions that was redacted but can and should be

25 actually in there. The question of the host was:

Page 32341

1 "Your response to the Muslims had to be swift because as we all

2 remember the SDA party of democratic action was strong in Foca at that

3 time."

4 That is something that the host put to the -- to Stanic and then

5 there is this Stanic answer. Perhaps we should upload a new version

6 where this particular question is seen.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please proceed, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

8 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, before she does that would it be

9 possible to give us the 65 ter number of the unredacted version so we can

10 follow these parts? I know it's been disclosed to us, but we don't

11 really know where to find it at the moment.

12 JUDGE KWON: Could it be done during the break?

13 MR. ROBINSON: Yes.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we actually have it right here

15 at hand, and it is 40199. That's the entire tape and the entire

16 transcript.

17 Q. Sir, here you see again the reference to the preparing of the

18 military organisation of the Serbian people a year before, and then there

19 comes a list of commanders mentioned, the first were commanders. And

20 among them is Gojko Jankovic. And he is mentioned here next to

21 Boro Ivanovic and you said that he was the commander of your battalion,

22 the 5th Battalion, and he is mentioned here next to Pero Elez, another

23 commander of a battalion. So Gojko Jankovic is mentioned here among the

24 first commanders. You see that?

25 A. I can see that but something is not quite clear to me here.

Page 32342

1 There is this Radmilo Pljevadzic there. He was not a commander of any

2 kind. He became the commander of the intervention platoon only after I

3 was wounded and year after the conflict broke out, actually, so something

4 is not quite clear to me here. But again, I am saying that as far as

5 what is here, there was Boro, he was the commander of the battalion and

6 then perhaps -- well, as for Cosovic and this Zivanovic, as for Gojko

7 Jankovic, these were all komandirs, not commanders; that's the

8 difference. Perhaps you don't see that distinction. They were komandirs

9 of reconnaissance units. As for the statement by Miro Stanic,

10 Miro Stanic and the Serbs could see that it was no joke and that after

11 this ruthless attack on the civilian population of the Serbs, it's normal

12 that the Serbs headed by Miro Stanic decided to self organise and to

13 defend themselves. As for help from outside, we didn't get help either

14 from the Pale leadership or from the Yugoslav People's Army, no help. We

15 organised ourselves.

16 Q. Sir, you mentioned a bit earlier ago that you did not know about

17 these kind of activities, when they occurred, so you don't know who

18 assisted Mr. Stanic in doing all this; is that not right?

19 A. I was not a battalion commander so I wasn't really meant to know

20 that. I don't know if the others knew it. I don't know if this is what

21 the Crisis Staff did when forming its units, the Foca Crisis Staff. I

22 think it numbered 15 members. So probably they were working on

23 appointing commanders and on forming units. But it was all with the

24 objective of defending or protecting the Serbian people.

25 Q. Sir, while you don't know matters that occurred on the Serb side

Page 32343

1 before the outbreak of the war, you provided a great deal of detail in

2 relation to the Muslims, what they were doing. That's hearsay, right?

3 That's not what you really saw. This is what you read, that is what was

4 rumoured, and that is what people would be speaking about; correct?

5 A. No, it wasn't quite like that. I experienced the Focatrans. I

6 experienced the barricades that were erected in Foca. I had personal

7 experience with that because we had to go to bring this girl, a

8 10-year-old girl, from the late Jankovic who was wounded and her mother

9 was killed. We had to bury the mother. I mean, these were all things

10 that I experienced personally. I'm not talking just off the top of my

11 head. I experienced the burning, the torching, of the Serb houses. It's

12 true, I didn't see the church in Jabuka burn because it's far away, it's

13 50 kilometres from Foca, but I knew that it was set on fire and not only

14 was the church torched but some 50 civilians were killed there as well

15 and it wasn't the Serbs that killed them.

16 Q. Sir, in your evidence here in the court, you referred to Muslims

17 that fled to their Serb neighbours to be safe; correct?

18 A. You mean Serbia Montenegro?

19 Q. No, you -- sorry. I understood your evidence that while still in

20 Foca Muslim villagers or Muslim neighbours in Foca fled to the Serb

21 neighbours to be safe; correct? You gave a few examples and you yourself

22 also helped and accommodated such neighbours, Muslim neighbours.

23 A. That's correct. I said that the Muslims had gone to safe

24 places -- actually, the Serbs made it possible for them to seek shelter

25 and they provided security for them. This was in places where the

Page 32344

1 population was mixed or where the Muslims were in a minority. In places

2 where the Muslims were in a majority, they held that part of town until

3 the Serbian forces liberated that part as well. When the majority

4 Muslim-populated parts of town were liberated, Muslims, particularly the

5 able-bodied men, left for Gorazde. And the civilian population that

6 remained behind were taken care of, taken to secure places and later were

7 permitted to leave, to go to Serbia or wherever they wanted.

8 Q. You also described how you helped a Muslim -- Muslims out of

9 Foca, remember that? You gave an example of this.

10 A. I did, yes. This was an outlying neighbourhood of town and there

11 were 33 Muslims placed there. They were some three days in that place

12 and then later they left, they went safely towards Montenegro. There was

13 another village bordering on Orahovo. It's a village by the name

14 Subi Suljci and when the village was supposed to be cleansed, if I can

15 put it that way, from armed Muslims, the able-bodied Muslim men from

16 those villages had already left for Gorazde. I personally went to that

17 village with another two soldiers. We sat in Asim Memic's house. We sat

18 with his daughters-in-law, his grandchildren. We had coffee. They said

19 they went to Gorazde. I said, Why did they go? We can all live

20 together. If anybody's armed or whatever, if there are any armed

21 formations -- I mean there was no need, so that's how it was. And so

22 those people from that village of Subi Sulci withdrew later. Some 15

23 days or a month later they withdrew to Gorazde. Nobody was harmed. That

24 was their decision to go like that.

25 Q. But what I understand from your evidence is that Muslims needed

Page 32345

1 help to get out of Foca, help by their Serb neighbours; right?

2 A. Yes, they were given help. We provided help. We organised buses

3 and whoever wanted voluntarily to leave the town -- actually, it was

4 their request, their wish, to go to seek shelter to get away from the

5 conflicts between the Serbs and the Muslims.

6 Q. Sir, you mentioned that when Muslim villages were cleansed from

7 Muslim fighters, the civilian population was taken to locations in Foca

8 for safe-guarding to protect them also. And in this context, or rather,

9 we also mentioned here the villages of Trosanj and Mjesaja. There's

10 evidence before this Court that this village was totally burnt down, that

11 the men of the village were killed and the women were detained in

12 Buk Bijela, Foca high school, and partisan sports hall and they were not

13 protected; on the contrary, they were raped by men that we mentioned this

14 morning, including also Gojko Jankovic. Isn't that what happened in Foca

15 or would you not know that?

16 A. I don't know about this other thing -- well, in my statement I

17 never said that. I didn't say anything about Trosanj, Mjesaja. I am

18 hearing of that for the first time. That's not my testimony. Actually,

19 it's quite the opposite, as far as I'm concerned. I never said that. I

20 don't know where you got that from.

21 Q. I have actually mentioned the evidence that is before this Court,

22 and it's actually from July 1992 so I was wondering whether that's -- you

23 do not know about this because you were not here -- you were not there at

24 that time but you were in Belgrade.

25 A. I was in Belgrade, but actually that's quite on the other side in

Page 32346

1 relation to where I lived. I told you about the right bank of the

2 Cehotina river and the right bank of the Drina River. That's where my

3 battalion was. As for Trosanj, I don't know. I think that the Foca

4 Crisis Staff, its order was explicit. The civilian population was to be

5 protected. But since the civilian population, the villages were far from

6 Foca, this -- they had to come down to places where we could provide

7 security which could be monitored. I know where this village of Trosanj

8 is more or less. It's far from Foca. You would need a whole unit

9 located up there in order to secure the population, or Tjentiste, that's

10 more than 50 kilometres away. So this was done. And if any of the

11 civilians remained, they were taken care of in Foca in these several

12 locations. These people, men and women, were brought and accommodated in

13 KP Dom as well, a number of them. I don't know whether some people were

14 missing or not missing from the KP Dom, I mean I don't really want to get

15 into that. But the objective of the Crisis Staff was to accommodate --

16 provide accommodation for the civilian population --

17 Q. Let me interrupt you here. As you don't know -- as you were away

18 from Foca from the 14th of July onwards, I understand perfectly well that

19 you may not know about Trosanj and Mjesaja and the details of that, but

20 does that not also mean whatever you say about this period, that is, the

21 voluntary departure of people, the protection of people in certain

22 localities in Foca, that's all hearsay and you cannot confirm any of that

23 because you were not there. Isn't that what it was?

24 A. What I was able to confirm for you I confirmed, but I cannot

25 confirm anything that happened in September in 1992 in Tjentiste because

Page 32347

1 I heard that Tjentiste was liberated only in August or September of 1992

2 so I cannot say what was happening up there. I was fighting for my life

3 at that time in Belgrade.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, a minute, please.

5 [Prosecution counsel confer]

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, no further questions.

7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

8 We'll continue after the break if you have any re-examination,

9 Mr. Karadzic.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a few, Your Excellency.

11 JUDGE KWON: We'll resume at 1.25.

12 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 1.30 p.m.

14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

16 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pljevaljcic, just a few questions and I hope

18 we'll be done soon. On page 55 my learned colleague,

19 Madam Uertz-Retzlaff, asked you about the participation of the Uzice

20 Corps in the attack on Foca. Could you tell us who it was who was

21 attacking Foca and who was defending themselves from Foca.

22 A. As far as I know, the Uzice Corps had absolutely nothing to do

23 with Foca nor was it anywhere near that area. As I've already said, the

24 shelling of Foca began and it was the Muslims who were shelling it, and

25 there was no other attack except in the following, in the ensuing, days

Page 32348

1 some infantry fighting came about. But the Uzice Corps had nothing to do

2 with Foca. It didn't take part in any way.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pljevaljcic. What I would like you to clarify for

4 us is this: Were there any Serb forces from outside Foca that attacked

5 it and who were the attackers and who were the defenders of Foca?

6 A. There were no forces from outside of Foca that attacked Foca. On

7 our part I don't know if there were Green Berets or paramilitary units on

8 the Muslim side, but as for Foca it was attacked by the Muslims and it

9 was defended by Serb volunteers, Serb patriots from the town of Foca who

10 managed to defend it and who liberated it. That is the fact.

11 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you now about artillery. Now,

12 mention was made here that there was artillery taking part in the attack

13 on Foca. Now, whose shells and whose bombs fell on Foca?

14 A. Well, the first shells that fell on Foca were Muslim shells and

15 this went on the first night, and then on the following day there was a

16 multiple rocket-launcher and there was some mortars. So these shells

17 were the first shells that struck Foca and this went on from around

18 10.00 p.m. up until sometime after midnight or around 1.00 a.m., so that

19 the next day there was panic in Foca. As for shelling, there was no

20 shelling in Foca. There were only -- there was only infantry fighting.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, on page 57 the learned Madam Uertz-Retzlaff said

22 the Crisis Staff of Foca and then she added the SDS Crisis Staff of Foca.

23 Was this Crisis Staff a party organ or a municipal body? Was it -- were

24 the members of it party people or municipal officials?

25 A. Well, there were no party people in the Crisis Staff -- well,

Page 32349

1 there was perhaps one of the members of the Crisis Staff which was a

2 municipal staff was also a member of the SDS, but it was a municipal

3 staff and it was established by the municipality once the negotiations

4 fell through. Now, half of the representatives in the municipality were

5 Serbs.

6 Q. Thank you. On page 60 I'm afraid that your full answer is not

7 reflected. Did you say there that these volunteers --

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: As you have seen, Ms. Gustafson and I, we

11 have changed the seat, but that's why I have to interrupt you because you

12 can't see me so well anymore. I think when he now refers to -- in this

13 way to certain things that the witness had said or may not have said, I

14 think he has to formulate it in a -- not in a leading way. When you see

15 here: I'm afraid that your full answer is not reflected, I think he

16 should ask the question that he find the answer is missing to rather than

17 citing.

18 JUDGE KWON: He was about to quote the transcript page. Should

19 we see how he formulates his question, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I'm only afraid that it will be already

21 giving the answer.

22 JUDGE KWON: Let us see.

23 What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I could have intervened at

25 the time in the transcript, but I didn't want to interrupt. But I can

Page 32350

1 read out a portion of the answer and then ask the witness what it was

2 that he had also said but was omitted if that's how you would prefer it.

3 That's page 60, lines 7 through 10. May I read it out, the witness's

4 answer?

5 JUDGE KWON: Please proceed.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. This is what your answer was:

8 [In English] "The Crisis Staff in Foca could hardly wait to be

9 rid of those so-called soldiers and I gave you that example where one of

10 those was killed and then we faced lots of problems in the days just

11 after that killing. They came there to help the Serbs."

12 [Interpretation] And then you said something else - and that can

13 be checked - to the effect: We came there to help. And you -- could you

14 just finish your sentence, please.

15 A. Well, yes, when this man, this volunteer, was killed - if I can

16 call him that - we had serious problems with these volunteers, we Serbs.

17 And they said we came here to help you defend yourself and you are

18 killing us, something to that effect.

19 Q. Thank you. That was not reflected in the transcript so that's

20 all I wanted to clarify. Now on page 61 my learned colleague -- my

21 learned friend Madam Uertz-Retzlaff said -- mentioned the Foca and she

22 said that the arming of the Serbs began in the 1990s -- in the 1990 --

23 the year of 1990. Was that the case?

24 A. Well, certainly not. I told you already about the year of 1990.

25 The arming of Serbs began and most Serbs armed themselves - I have to

Page 32351

1 repeat this one more time - on the first day of the breakout of the war

2 which is when they broke into depots of Territorial Defence and found

3 some infantry weapons there. There were no other weapons. There was no

4 artillery. There were no bombs, no hand-grenades, no shells. There was

5 only -- there were only infantry weapons. So most Serbs armed themselves

6 then.

7 Q. All right. I just want to ask you one other thing to do with the

8 interview with Mr. Stanic. I don't know exactly when it was that he gave

9 this interview. Now, was it customary for local people to brag to sort

10 of claim the credit for something that people did to claim the credit for

11 themselves?

12 A. Well, yes, that was quite common there and there's something

13 that's not really clear to me in this report of Mr. Stanic's. Now, if

14 you know Mr. Stanic - and I know him well - he's a very peaceable,

15 peace-loving, quiet man. And to him a good soldier would be a commander.

16 So that's the difference. Now, he would refer to any good patriot, any

17 good fighter, good soldier, a commander. Now, most of these names --

18 most of these people whose names are mentioned there, most of them were

19 not commanders at all. So this statement of his or this interview of

20 his, he just tried to embellish things a bit because the Serbs were the

21 ones who freed Foca. And he as the chairman of the party probably felt

22 that there was some credit for him too to claim in this situation. So he

23 was probably just embellishing a little and bragging a bit.

24 THE ACCUSED: I wonder whether "embellish" would be translated

25 bragging -- more properly "bragging" than "embellish." [Interpretation]

Page 32352

1 Because the witness said that he was bragging.

2 JUDGE KWON: Is there much difference? We noted your

3 observation, but please refrain from making -- asking leading questions.

4 Please continue.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Now, on page 72 you were asked about help you -- about the help

8 that the neighbours, Serb neighbours, provided to their Muslim friends

9 and how they helped them leave there. Now, what was the position of the

10 authorities? Do you know that there was a time when the authorities

11 tried to prevent anyone from leaving, so either side?

12 A. I know that --

13 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Another leading question.

15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The previous was already but I ignored it,

17 but this is again leading.

18 JUDGE KWON: Agreed.

19 Reformulate your question, Mr. Karadzic.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. What was the position of the Serb authorities in Foca vis-a-vis

22 the departures of either Serbs or Muslims from Foca?

23 A. As for the -- both the Muslims and the Serbs leaving - and we

24 haven't mentioned here something earlier but I think I did - that Serbs

25 too were leaving. But as for the Serb authorities in Foca, they never

Page 32353

1 tried to prevent anyone from leaving voluntarily. They assisted them in

2 that; however, they tried to appeal to people not to leave. They said

3 that they would try and provide everyone the protection they required,

4 and that was the case with everyone who stayed behind. I told you of

5 instances where people stayed behind. They spent the entire war together

6 with the Serbs. There were also those who left toward the end of 1992

7 and then returned later on. There's still people who worked with me.

8 For instance, there is a colleague at KP Foca where he left in 1992 for

9 Turkey. He was -- this was facilitated by the Serb authorities at the

10 time, but he returned together with his families. So the Serb

11 authorities made it possible -- facilitated everyone who wanted to leave.

12 They facilitated their departures. But the same applied for everyone and

13 they allowed the Muslims everything that they allowed the Serbs. It was

14 a difficult time. It was war time.

15 Q. Thank you. Could we now briefly look at P2642. This was before

16 your wounding, you were still in the unit. Could we please have that

17 document P2642. While we are waiting for the English version, would you

18 please take a look at the first page, the cover page [indiscernible].

19 Read it to yourself, Mr. Pljevaljcic.

20 A. Yes, that's how it was.

21 Q. Next page, please, the first page in its entirety and then let's

22 move on to page 2. Tell me when you're done, please.

23 A. Well, it's all just the way it is stated here. All those who

24 wished to leave were allowed to leave safely and transport was provided.

25 Those who wished to stay were allowed to get on and have a dignified

Page 32354

1 existence.

2 Q. Yes. So this document, to the best of your knowledge, reflects

3 the actual moves made by the Serb authorities in Foca, does it not?

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, leading again.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How?

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. What is the relation between this document and what actually

8 happened?

9 A. Well, I've never set eyes on this document before, but everything

10 that I said during my evidence is entirely in keeping with what the

11 document states and yet I've never seen it before.

12 Q. Thank you very much. The issue of the Muslims arming themselves

13 was raised as well. I would like to ask you the following: You said you

14 knew Sahim -- Sahinpasic, Sajo, and you also heard of Halid Cengic. What

15 sort of reputation did these two people enjoy, in a legal sense, the

16 legality of their behaviour?

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I did not address these personalities and I

20 did not address this topic of their involvement in arming, whatsoever.

21 JUDGE KWON: No.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm trying to save time and this is

23 a Prosecution document. Perhaps it's not known -- I'm sorry, it's a

24 Defence document. The thing is Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff talked about rumours

25 back in 1991 about Muslims arming themselves. I have a Muslim document

Page 32355

1 here D299, which states exactly the opposite. It's a Muslim document

2 produced by the Muslim security service --

3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I'm not sure whether we heard about

4 rumours about Muslim arming.

5 Did you ask any questions about that, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I actually put to the witness that while --

7 because he was not there and he would not know that, and that's what he

8 was relying on was hearsay and rumours. I used the word "rumours,"

9 that's for sure.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Were those rumours or do you have information indicating that the

16 SDA was arming the Muslims in Foca and organising them in a military

17 sense?

18 A. Those weren't rumours, that's for sure. If you take the case of

19 that truck full of weapons in Foca and once the clashes had broken out

20 there was a truck full of weapons that was stopped at Focatrans, and

21 there was a whole arsenal, a cache of weapons in the Focatrans canteen.

22 And if you take the whole of Gorazde which was surrounded - as this Court

23 claims - and everybody in Gorazde was armed to their teeth, well you can

24 imagine where the weapons came from and when did the weapons arrive.

25 Well, it had to be at some point earlier on, didn't it? How could

Page 32356

1 Gorazde have possibly been surrounded by the Serb forces and yet they

2 were all armed to their teeth over there? Well, the weapons didn't just

3 fall from the sky and land straight in their lap, right?

4 Q. Thank you.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D299, please. Can we have that in

6 e-court. Thank you very much.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Can you please focus on this. This is the BH security

9 administration. Can we please have the final page of this document just

10 to see who signed it. This is the 17th of July, 1993.

11 Fikret Muslimovic, chief of security. Can we please go back to page 3.

12 I'd like to read to you a portion of the document:

13 "Sahinpasic is a private tradesman from Foca and a delegate to

14 the citizens' council and Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Cengic is an

15 accountant at the Mlin RO work organisation in Ustikolina and town

16 councillor in the Foca. From the time they came to power having gathered

17 around themselves their family and friends they started with all kinds of

18 fraud and smuggling which brought them huge amounts of money. The

19 increasingly complex political situation and deteriorating inter-ethnic

20 relations during 1991 played into their hands, since arms smuggling was

21 flourishing and they are doing nothing to appease the situation but were

22 on the contrary inciting it with their actions and political activity."

23 The last sentence said:

24 "The rifles that Sahinpasic and Cengic are selling are being sold

25 for 1.200 to 1.500 German marks.

Page 32357

1 According to some intelligence 5.200 rifles came to Foca via the

2 SDA which Sahinpasic and Cengic sold.

3 What about these quantities? Was that what they obtained before

4 the war? So were these weapons being sold during the war or prior to the

5 war?

6 A. I'm sure the information is trustworthy and accurate. The

7 information comes from one of their documents that was signed by one of

8 their own. It's not just that people were saying that they were arming

9 themselves; it was what was actually happening and all the facts point to

10 that conclusion. Where did the Muslims get their weapons both in Foca

11 and in Gorazde? It was an open secret in Foca and Ustikolina that the

12 mosque at Donje Polje where Sahinpasic had his warehouse was full of

13 weapons. And it's true that rifles were being sold to the Muslims and

14 they would pay in excess of 1.000 German marks per piece. All the Serbs

15 and all the Muslims in that area knew that; it was no secret at all.

16 Q. The previous document P2642 -- no, actually, it's the present

17 document not the previous one. Is it correct that ...

18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, just for your benefit I'm asking this.

19 This document has already been admitted into evidence and the witness

20 does not know specifics based upon his experience. What would you get

21 from this witness?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I just wanted to

23 know whether the document was accurate in this witness's experience.

24 He [indiscernible] addressed that and the OTP tried to challenge that, so

25 that's why I included that in my re-examination. Nevertheless, I am now

Page 32362

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Mijanovic, I would like to ask you something about

3 paragraph 14 on page 3 of your statement. Perhaps we can look at it in

4 e-court. I know, but I don't know if it's clear to the others, in

5 paragraph you say in the last sentence:

6 "Gun-shots could often be heard from the settlements of Mojmilo,

7 Boljakov Potok, and Buca Potok during the night."

8 So this is before the war broke out in the course of 1991. Whose

9 settlements are these?

10 A. These are majority Muslim settlements, Bosniak settlements. I

11 don't know anymore which term to use.

12 Q. Thank you. I don't have any more questions for you at this

13 point, sir.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

15 Mr. Mijanovic, your evidence in chief in this case has been

16 admitted in writing and you will be now cross-examined by the member of

17 the Office of the Prosecutor.

18 Yes, Ms. Gustafson, you have about ten minutes.

19 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE KWON: For today.

21 MS. GUSTAFSON: Right.

22 Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

23 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Mijanovic.

24 A. Good afternoon and all the best to you.

25 Q. Thank you. I'd like to also thank you for agreeing to meet with

Page 32363

1 the Prosecution yesterday and I'd like to start by just confirming some

2 of the things that you said yesterday in the presence of myself and an

3 investigator from the Office of the Prosecution. The first matters

4 relate to paragraph 4 of your statement, where you explain that at the

5 end of April 1992 you went to Ilidza and provided security for the

6 municipal building where the Crisis Staff and the military command had

7 their offices. And I'd like to clarify that your role at the municipal

8 building was, in fact, to call people to meetings of the Crisis Staff

9 essentially; is that correct?

10 A. It is correct that I did not secure the building but was on duty

11 in the building, on call next to the telephone on duty there. I picked

12 up the phone and as per the orders of the representatives of the

13 Crisis Staff or the war commissioner office I scheduled meetings of the

14 war commission.

15 Q. And the person from the Crisis Staff who was in general giving

16 you these orders to schedule meetings was Mr. Prstojevic; right?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. And you also clarified yesterday that you personally did not

19 attend any meetings of the Ilidza Crisis Staff or Ilidza military

20 command; is that right?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. And you also clarified that you didn't take part in any combat

23 operations and had no role in co-ordinating or commanding any police or

24 military operations in Ilidza; is that right?

25 A. I was never militarily engaged during the war.

Page 32364

1 Q. And you confirmed that Mr. Prstojevic remained the president of

2 Ilidza municipality throughout the war and for a period of time after the

3 end of the war; is that right?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. Okay. And now I'd like to turn to paragraph 6 of your statement

6 where you claim that the authorities of the Serbian municipality of

7 Ilidza and their organs did not expel non-Serbs and that they moved out

8 of their own accord and in an unorganised manner. And in that respect

9 I'd like to go to P2308, please. This is a report from the

10 20th of September, 1993, from the Ilidza public security station to the

11 RS Ministry of Internal Affairs and the security services centre

12 Sarajevo. And if we could turn to page 2 in both languages. The second

13 full paragraph it states that at the beginning of 1991 during illegal

14 meetings organised by Tomislav Kovac, who was then the commander of the

15 Ilidza public security station, policemen of Serbian nationality were

16 informed that the war option for realisation of national interests was

17 being increasingly promoted. A few lines down it says that it was also

18 agreed that intense activity should be undertaken to arm citizens of

19 Serbian nationality and armament was transported from Ravna Romanija,

20 Pale, Sokolac, Kalinovik, the village of Nedavici, Trnovo,

21 Torsici [phoen], Hadzici, Jusuf Jonlandzic [phoen] Barracks, Lukavica,

22 and Nedzarici.

23 First, were you aware of these illegal meetings organised by

24 Mr. Kovac or these intense arming activities of Serbs referred to in this

25 report?

Page 32365

1 A. In early 1991, as it states here, I was in the Novi Grad

2 municipality not in the Ilidza municipality area, so I couldn't have

3 known even if this was so.

4 Q. Okay. And if we could go to the next page in both languages.

5 And now they're talking about activities in 1992 and the second-last

6 paragraph states:

7 "All detained Muslims were thoroughly interrogated in order to

8 extract useful information regarding their intentions. Repressive

9 measures undertaken against them for various reasons resulted in them

10 increasingly fleeing and moving out of this territory."

11 Now, in relation to your claims about the manner in which Muslims

12 left the territory of Ilidza, were you aware of the fact that the Ilidza

13 SJB was taking repressive measures against Muslims resulting in them

14 increasingly fleeing and moving out of the territory?

15 A. The Malaleja [phoen] command of the Crisis Staff or of the war

16 commission, however you want to refer to it, I got there in mid-May and

17 then the tram were still -- the trams were still running between the

18 Ilidza and Bascarsija stops during that period. And anybody who wanted

19 to move out could have done so. People could also move in to Ilidza if

20 they wanted. And then sometime in mid-May this was not possible anymore

21 because the town was sealed and the inside, meaning that the territory or

22 actually the --

23 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

24 A. -- federal part or the Muslims -- yes?

25 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you but your answer is not really

Page 32366

1 responsive to my question which was simply whether or not you were aware

2 of the fact that the Ilidza SJB was taking repressive measures against

3 detained Muslims resulting in them freeing from the territory?

4 A. No, I didn't know that.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. GUSTAFSON: Should I stop there, Your Honour?

7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mijanovic, the Chamber has another matter to

8 deal with for today, so we'll adjourn for today for the purpose of your

9 testimony. We'll continue tomorrow.

10 THE WITNESS: Okay.

11 JUDGE KWON: You are advised not to discuss with anybody else

12 about your testimony. Do you understand that, sir?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Mijanovic. You may be excused.

15 [The witness stands down]

16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17 JUDGE KWON: Probably before going into private session I think I

18 can safely note this. The Chamber is seized of certain confidential

19 motion, and in order to resolve the issue in an efficient and expeditious

20 way, the Chamber has invited an attorney for a witness and the

21 representative of the Registrar. So could those two persons introduce

22 themselves for record.

23 MR. BOURGON: Good afternoon, Mr. President. Stephane Bourgon

24 representing the witness Dragomir Milosevic. Thank you, Mr. President.

25 MS. OSURE: Good afternoon, Mr. President. Anna Osure