Page 32786
1 Tuesday, 29 January 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
7 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.
9 Good morning to everybody.
10 WITNESS: DRAGOMIR MILOSEVIC [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, General, sir.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. General, yesterday you mentioned Hrasnica. You said that it was
16 swarming with soldiers. Do you know what was the head count of the
17 104th Brigade run by Fikret Prevljak and what was its lethal power?
18 A. Yes. As regards the information about this area, it was
19 well-known. The situation in that area was well-known. Regarding your
20 statement that the area was swarming with troops, that was a problem that
21 was not of a major importance to us. The movements of the troops who do
22 not open fire were not a priority problem for us.
23 Obviously movements, manoeuvres, and any such actions are of some
24 importance; however, there was another aspect and another type of
25 activities that posed a greater danger to us. This boils down to several
Page 32787
1 procedures which could not be tolerated. That means that infantry and
2 artillery held under control or under fire various areas in the Sarajevo
3 region. I'm talking about the village of Grlica, the village of
4 Vojkovici, parts of Gornji Kotorac, and also one part of the territory of
5 Ilidza. I'm coming back to the area and to that axis that we are
6 discussing at the moment and this is the axis leading from Hrasnica to
7 the slopes of Mount Igman in the direction of the battalion that was in
8 charge of the defence in the Nedzarici sector. The essence of their
9 intense activities and their constant movements and their abuses was in
10 opening fire on the small village of Grlica. I don't know why the
11 village is called that way. And very often, perhaps not every day, but
12 very often civilians who were going about their business got killed there
13 every day.
14 Q. You mentioned Grlica. Let me just clarify for the participants
15 in this trial. Is Grlica a type of dove, a small dove?
16 A. I don't think that that's that important. I'm not saying it's a
17 dove. It's a bird in any case. Grlica is a bird.
18 Q. How often did they open fire and from what localities? I'm
19 talking about the 104th Brigade. How often they opened fire on the parts
20 of the Serb Sarajevo that you mentioned in your previous answer.
21 A. In my previous answer, I did not mention how they opened fire on
22 the Famos factory in Sarajevo. One part of that factory was occupied by
23 the units of the 1st Corps in initial struggle, and most of that factory
24 was on the part of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and it was in production.
25 That factory was to be destroyed. One part of the factory was burnt to
Page 32788
1 the ground. It produced gearboxes for certain types of vehicles. And
2 then they continued to open fire on the remainder of the factory that was
3 still intact.
4 As far as defence goes, on one side of the factory were the
5 forces of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and on the other side of the wall
6 there were others. There was practically no distance between them. On
7 the other side of the wall were the units of the 104th Motorised Brigade.
8 I said yesterday that that brigade had at its disposal many more lethal
9 weapons than the other brigades in the 12th Corps. They had a contingent
10 of 180- [as interpreted] and 82-millimetre mortars. They had
11 76-millimetre cannons, so-called ZIS cannons. They had a large number of
12 recoilless guns and anti-aircraft mortars, 20/1, which means a
13 one-barrelled cannon, and 20/3, which is a three-barrelled cannon. That
14 would be the number of assets and weapons from which they could open fire
15 as they willed because they had that contingent of weapons and they --
16 good position, an elevated position, from which they could open fire on
17 the areas that I have just mentioned.
18 Q. Thank you, General, sir. You mentioned that that looked like a
19 close contact struggle because there was practically no distance between
20 them, but that was not recorded.
21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
22 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
23 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry, Your Honour, but the transcript,
24 page 3, line 9, reads "180- and 82-millimetre mortars," and perhaps --
25 and I suspect the General didn't mean 180-millimetre mortars which to my
Page 32789
1 knowledge don't exist. Perhaps he could be asked to clarify.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When a word comes out of one's
3 mouth and it has nothing to do with reality, it cannot be valid. I don't
4 know how this number, 180, came up, why I said that. But it was not that
5 figure, obviously. I wanted to say 120-millimetre mortars and
6 82-millimetre mortars. I wanted to say what I knew that they had.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Do you remember the last question of
8 Mr. Karadzic's or shall I ask him to repeat it?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would be grateful if the question
10 was repeated.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. General, sir, it was not recorded that you said that they were on
13 both sides of the wall. They were at close quarters. There was no
14 distance between them.
15 A. Well, yes, I understand. I can clarify possibly. On that
16 stretch, or rather, in that whole area of struggle or the area of contact
17 they were not close. They were at close quarters. It was not any other
18 category of fighting that may take place in a conflict. That will be
19 that.
20 Q. Are you saying that the confrontation line went through the
21 factory?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Did you destroy the part that was under Muslim control?
24 A. No, we did not.
25 Q. When was it that you became fully aware of the infrastructure of
Page 32790
1 the power and the deployment of the 104th Brigade and its firing
2 positions?
3 A. I knew that my predecessors - and I'm talking about General Galic
4 and the commanders who were in charge of the Ilidza Brigade and the
5 2nd Sarajevo Brigade - I knew that they had the same feeling, that they
6 were aware of the same fact from the very beginning of the conflict.
7 However, they -- their power continued to grow over a period of time, I
8 would say, and this is something that I am certain of. However, I'm not
9 claiming that for a fact here. I don't have that possibility.
10 Fikret Prevljak was the commander of that brigade at one time.
11 Later on he left to become the commander of the 12th Division. I felt
12 and we actually concluded that if a professional is not in command of an
13 area, somebody like a career officer, then we had a lot more problems
14 with the troops on the ground because there are no rules. I also know
15 that Mr. Fikret Prevljak was at odds with UNPROFOR. He even planted
16 mines on General Gobillard's route. They were removed. I would like to
17 add to (redacted)
18 (redacted) although he explained to Colonel Radojcic what things he
19 experienced at the hand of Mr. Fikret. My conclusion at this place on
20 this occasion, which I arrived at earlier on, is that the tensions, the
21 feelings, and the ideas as to how to conduct fighting with us, how to
22 engage us, is something that he inherited from his predecessors in a very
23 dirty way.
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 32791
1 (redacted)
2 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Um, and I think lines 24 and 25 as well because
4 that kind of signals the reasons why we might be redacting.
5 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. General, sir, could you please give us the names of some firing
9 positions and their localities in the field itself and particularly on
10 Mount Igman above Hrasnica. Where was fire opened from at us? What was
11 in the centre of Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija, the entire locality?
12 A. I fully understand your question. First of all, let's talk about
13 the locality of Hrasnica as a neighbourhood. Hrasnica is a very large
14 neighbourhood. Let's remind ourselves of its appearance. According to
15 what we knew, according to what we established, that neighbourhood was
16 covered in totality by the forces that were deployed, either by the
17 forces that opened fire from within or that were on furlough there or
18 reservists who were on standby to be used on a given axis. The locality
19 itself, the area, the territory of the neighbourhood was encumbered by
20 the military factor and the artillery assets, i.e., mortars,
21 120-millimetres, which opened fire from that area, as I have already told
22 you.
23 Furthermore, the slopes of Mount Igman, in this case the eastern
24 slopes of Mount Igman which tower over the area that I have been talking
25 about, which is Vojkovici, Grlica, Kotorac, and one part of Lukavica and
Page 32792
1 finally one part of Dobrinja, those slopes are conducive to direct fire.
2 They enable opening direct fire which excludes the use of calculations or
3 a team in charge of fire. The marksman is given co-ordinates and can
4 open fire directly. The entire road leading from Hrasnica further up
5 towards Igman and further afield along the front line were covered on the
6 left and on the right by assets which allegedly were deployed to protect
7 convoys and their troops pulling out. But I would say that they opened
8 fire at us without any necessity to do so, without any -- respecting any
9 rules.
10 Q. General, sir, please forgive me for not being clear enough. I
11 always include Sokolovic Kolonija and Butmir in my question when
12 discussing Hrasnica. Was this a single space, a single area; and if you
13 can, tell us which units were in Sokolovic Kolonija and Butmir?
14 A. There was a battalion in Sokolovic Kolonija which -- out of the
15 five they had. Another one was in Butmir. So they had a battalion of
16 soldiers that was positioned in Sokolovic Kolonija. You understood
17 properly the setting. It is true that Sokolovic Kolonija was the kind of
18 location which -- from which the forces of the SRK at Ilidza could be
19 threatened. So it was turned towards Ilidza, given its close proximity.
20 From Ilidza to Hrasnica, one needs to go through Sokolovic Kolonija
21 first. It was a threat to the area held by the Ilidza Brigade which was
22 close to the sports centre and the swimming pool and the spa area.
23 Q. Thank you, General. What can you tell us about Donji Kotorac and
24 Butmir? Who controlled it, what assets they had, and how distant were
25 they from our lands and the airport?
Page 32793
1 A. My answer is this: First of all, they weren't too far away from
2 the airport. I can't say precisely what the distance was, perhaps a
3 thousand metres, but I never gave it much thought. I simply knew it was
4 close. Donji Kotorac and Butmir are close to the airport. Donji Kotorac
5 and the distance between Butmir and Donji Kotorac is the area which was
6 an open space that our forces couldn't use. If we were to discuss the
7 issue of the siege of Sarajevo, in that direction the encirclement was
8 not complete. There was a way out of Sarajevo in the sense that no
9 forces of ours were there. The space is some 1.000 metres between
10 Kotorac and Butmir. It is all further afield from the airport and they
11 controlled it. They used it normally and it was all in the valley of the
12 Zeljeznica river.
13 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, in your order of the 6th of April, which
14 is P01201, you say that targets should be chosen in Hrasnica or
15 Sokolovic Kolonija as being the most profitable, causing the greatest
16 material damage and loss in terms of personnel. Sokolovic Kolonija and
17 Hrasnica, were they equally important as military targets? And can you
18 tell us what did you want to say when you said that greatest losses
19 should be inflicted in terms of human casualties, who did you mean? Do
20 you want us to recall the document?
21 A. I see it before me. I will do my utmost and tell the Chamber the
22 following. I believed one needn't ponder much further when I state, for
23 example, that greatest human and material losses should be inflicted.
24 Under no conditions and in no one's mind there should be a conclusion
25 that it was our wish or intention or that it could have pertained to
Page 32794
1 civilians. If one were aware of the extent of coverage they had in that
2 area and the amount of assets they had there, it would be clear. All I
3 had in mind were military targets. It was superfluous -- it would have
4 been superfluous of me to tell the brigade commander in charge to provide
5 any further instruction or detail or description of what I meant in terms
6 of the target we wanted to hit. It was simply military parlance. There
7 was no other target. There's only a military target. A civilian cannot
8 be a target; they're simply not treated as targets. They're no threat to
9 our activity.
10 Q. General, sir, the artilleryman that the order was issued to,
11 could he have understood it in any different way as if you were asking
12 him to inflict civilian losses? This was, in fact, sent to the brigade
13 commander; correct?
14 A. No, the document was drafted -- it was sent to the brigade
15 commander, but the document was prepared and drafted by the chief of
16 artillery, Colonel Tadija Manojlovic, and I signed it. He brought the
17 document to me, and when I read it, I found nothing of importance to
18 correct in terms of content because we were in perfect understanding. I
19 asked him whether he meant only such targets which opened fire and we
20 agreed that the document should remain as such.
21 Q. General, sir, how do we know that it was Tadija Manojlovic who
22 drafted the document? Can we see it anywhere?
23 A. There should be, yes, MT. That is the creator of the document.
24 RM stands for the stenographer or the dactylographer, the person who
25 typed it up. It's just above my signature.
Page 32795
1 Q. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have 1D7719 next.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. This incident found its way in your indictment as well as your
5 judgement; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How is this incident treated by UNPROFOR? Was there a protest or
8 was there an investigation? Was anything done at the time?
9 A. I cannot confirm that now. I really can't recall what the
10 procedure was in terms of reacting to it or any investigations. I only
11 recall that -- how things developed in my trial. Yes, I tried to explain
12 to my counsel the sense or the meaning of the phrase "choose a target."
13 I provided him with sufficient information in order to represent me
14 appropriately. I really do not recall what went on in terms of any
15 investigations or UNPROFOR reactions and everything that resulted from
16 it. I do know, though, that in the area, due to the impact of the aerial
17 bomb, an elderly person was killed. And some of the people who were
18 there in the immediate vicinity, in terms of observers and UNPROFOR
19 personnel, they had their own conclusions.
20 Q. Can you tell us whether there was a significant military target
21 close by in the area where the aerial bomb fell?
22 A. That is what the observers stated as well. In the immediate
23 vicinity there were artillery pieces, such as 120-millimetre mortars.
24 Q. Thank you. What about the Aleksa Santic school, is it close by,
25 and what do you know about what was in the building of the school during
Page 32796
1 the war?
2 A. The Aleksa Santic school is where some type of manufacture took
3 place of lethal assets for the needs of the units. Hrasnica received
4 certain materiel that could be turned into lethal assets as they were
5 being transported in and out of the city. I know they produced certain
6 kind of ammunition such as hand-grenades and rifle grenades.
7 Q. Thank you. General, this report is dated the 8th of April but
8 refers to the 7th of April, 1995, that's what we see on page 1.
9 Can we go to page 2. It is an UNPROFOR report rather than an
10 UNMO report.
11 Kindly listen to me. I'll read it out in English. I'll read out
12 item 2.
13 [In English] "Central and Eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina."
14 [Interpretation] And you will receive interpretation.
15 [In English] "Central and Eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina:
16 "(a) Sector Sarajevo: The situation is assessed to remain
17 stable. The level of firing incidents will likely continue to rise. The
18 rocket which impacted in Hrasnica was most likely retaliation for the
19 mortar round fired from Hrasnica some minutes before."
20 [Interpretation] What do you think of this report? Is it
21 accurate? Did they inform their superiors truthfully?
22 A. It is accurate. I think, sitting here, that this assertion by
23 UNPROFOR is something that did not come up during my trial. That was the
24 first thing I wanted to say. I know what the observers had said, but
25 this doesn't ring a bell. My counsel did not have occasion to lead this
Page 32797
1 in the courtroom as to what was the reason for opening fire.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted?
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2817, Your Honours.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. General, sir, you mentioned today that on both sides of the
8 so-called Igman route or Igman road there were military facilities,
9 units, and firing positions. A witness here told us at page 8012 - I'll
10 read it out in English again so as to have a better interpretation.
11 [In English] "The Igman mount road was being used by civilians to
12 go in and out of the town. The Serbs had been engaging the route. We
13 had protested against the Serbs from engaging that route."
14 [Interpretation] What was the Igman road used for?
15 A. The extent of my knowledge is based on what we could observe and
16 monitor on a daily basis. We followed the route and that direction up
17 Mount Igman. It was primarily used for military needs. It was used
18 primarily to move columns, to bring in weapons, equipment, and supplies
19 to Hrasnica. To us that road was of military importance and of a
20 military nature.
21 Q. How did you know, General, that it was used for military supply
22 and unit movement?
23 A. One could clearly observe that. It was obvious, I'd say. One
24 could differentiate between a civilian and a military column, including
25 vehicles and people. When it happened that they had a military column
Page 32798
1 going that way, just before they would try to create a smoke-screen.
2 They would activate some kind of asset to create a smoke-screen in order
3 to prevent us from realising that it was a military column. Nothing
4 similar happened when civilians moved about. They clearly identified it
5 for us what they did at any given moment.
6 Q. Thank you. And how were things during the night when it comes to
7 the use of that road?
8 A. The situation was the same as it was during the day. During the
9 night one could see the headlights well. However, night movements were
10 not what we were interested in and we never opened fire on them.
11 Q. There was a witness who mentioned on pages 8080 and 8081 an
12 incident and the fact that you reported to the Main Staff that the
13 UNPROFOR had gotten involved in the conflict and that they opened fire.
14 Can you briefly tell us whether you remember that incident and how it
15 came about.
16 A. Thank you for reminding me. This is correct. UNPROFOR -- and I
17 don't know what the intention was, whether there was co-ordination among
18 the troops of UNPROFOR, but in any case they found themselves in the
19 parts of the column in order to serve as their cover-up and thwart our
20 fire, given the fact that we were never supposed to open fire on them,
21 whatever they may have been involved in. However, they did not get
22 involved only to provide cover but they also opened fire on us. As a
23 result, we considered them a target like we would any other force that
24 opened fire on us.
25 Q. Thank you.
Page 32799
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D40604, it
2 concerns Butmir, Sokolovic Kolonija, and Hrasnica.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Earlier today you said that they used the area and that they used
5 the road for bringing the troops in and out and for bringing in supplies.
6 You said that it was easy to deliver supplies and combat assets and
7 equipment into Hrasnica. What do you know about those assets and
8 supplies, how did they arrive in the city?
9 The number is 1D40604.
10 Do you remember the question, General, sir?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. General, sir, do you remember when the tunnel was opened? Do you
13 remember whether this transfer took place even before the tunnel was
14 opened, although you may have not been there at the time? First of all,
15 tell us about the document, what is it?
16 A. When it comes to the date and the contents of the document, I
17 have to say that I was there, I was the commander of the 1st Romanija
18 Brigade, so that period is related to me in one way or another. First of
19 all, the tunnel was opened and became operational in 1993, and the
20 document speaks about activities that were going on in 1992. In any
21 case, those assets were transferred through the airport. There was no
22 other way. There was no other route. I've never seen this order before.
23 At that time they could not transport anything through the tunnel; they
24 could only do it via the airport.
25 Q. How does this tally with your experience regarding the transport
Page 32800
1 of assets and equipment into the city itself? Can you please clarify
2 this, why would they need 100-millimetre projectile for a tank? Why did
3 they need projectiles for self-propelled anti-aircraft gun in the city
4 itself?
5 A. I can only share my thoughts. If assets are brought in such as
6 ammunition and other equipments, that means that they had the assets that
7 were necessary to open fire on us. The conflict had already started and
8 this is the conflict that we have been talking about all the time. This
9 shows that they had available assets inside and the document here speaks
10 about resupplying ammunition for those combat assets that were in the
11 city.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
14 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, maybe - if I may - the way for
16 Dr. Karadzic to deal with documents like this is to establish some
17 foundation first before he then shows him the document.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, would you like to make any observation
19 in response to Ms. Edgerton's observation?
20 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I don't think that that has
21 been the practice that the Prosecution used during its direct examination
22 and I don't think that that is required and also I don't think that
23 affects the issue of whether the document is admissible.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may add, I believe that I did
25 lay the foundation. I reminded the witness of what he had already said.
Page 32801
1 He said that supplies arrived in Hrasnica and then I asked him whether
2 those supplies were then transferred from Hrasnica into the city and then
3 he answered. This document only illustrates things that he already spoke
4 about, that he already testified to.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Just -- but further, Your Honour, this is about
8 leading the witness and to -- and in line of -- in line with the
9 guide-lines Your Honours had suggested some time ago, I think it would
10 and -- it would be appropriate for Dr. Karadzic to, rather than lead the
11 witness with the document, establish some manner of foundation, ask him
12 what he knows, and then show the document to him, which would then not be
13 leading the witness.
14 JUDGE KWON: Did he not deal with a supply of ammunition or
15 weapons into Sarajevo before putting this document to the witness?
16 MS. EDGERTON: Quite so in different ways, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, the -- I agree in principle with
18 what Ms. Edgerton says, but you may find it of use because if you
19 establish the ground before, it concentrates the witness's mind nicely on
20 the issue and most likely produce a shorter, more succinct answer, which
21 is going to take less of your time.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will receive it.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D2818, Your Honours.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellencies. I'm
Page 32802
1 trying to keep things short. I am mindful of the time. Sometimes it
2 backfires.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. General, sir, earlier today I asked you where you became aware of
5 the infrastructure and firing positions in Sokolovic Kolonija, Stojcevac,
6 Butmir, and other areas within your zone of responsibility. I am
7 interested in Sokolovic Kolonija, Hrasnica, and Butmir, i.e., those parts
8 which were south of your zone of responsibility. Just a while ago you
9 said that fire was opened almost daily.
10 I want to show you a document which was signed by somebody on
11 your behalf. It is 1D8006. There is an obvious mistake when you look at
12 the stamp on the last page. The year depicted on the stamp is 1993,
13 whereas in the heading it's the year 1992. Let's see who signed on
14 behalf of General Milosevic and let us also look at the stamp where you
15 will see that the year was 1993, not 1992.
16 A. It is true that when it was sent from the printer it was in 1993,
17 whereas in the heading I did see that the year was 1992.
18 Q. Since we're here, could you please look at bullet point 7 and
19 could you please tell us what losses you suffered on that day. You don't
20 have to read. You just tell us what losses you suffered on that
21 particular day.
22 A. Under losses or casualties there is a division into those who
23 were killed, those who were wounded, and the wounded were then divided
24 into those who were seriously wounded, on the one hand, and those who
25 were slightly wounded, on the other hand. There are also the names of --
Page 32803
1 first of the person who died and the unit that he belonged to and
2 everything else, and the same applies to the wounded, their names, their
3 units, whether they were seriously wounded or slightly wounded.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go back to the first page,
6 please.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. General, sir, there is a description of places from which fire
9 was opened at us. Could you please read that paragraph. Where was fire
10 opened from and what were the effects of that fire?
11 A. From Sokolovic Kolonija, Stojcevac, Butmir, Stupsko Brdo,
12 Hladnjaca, from infantry weapons, snipers, 82- and 120-millimetre
13 mortars, on Ilidza. Now I'm reading the localities on which fire was
14 opened, Ilidza; Doglodi, which is a village; Luzane, which is a part of
15 Ilidza, a residential part of Ilidza. There were two seriously wounded
16 fighters, three slightly wounded fighters, and three civilians. In this
17 case the civilians were wounded as well and so were my men.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 A. And then it goes on to say that all of that was the area
20 bordering on Ilidza and the Ilidza Brigade and that's where fire came
21 from.
22 Q. How often were such incidents described in your reports?
23 A. Very often, very often. Reports show that. You can see
24 everything from reports. You can see what happened on a certain day, and
25 in this case I can only confirm that a writing of these reports and their
Page 32804
1 analysis, the analysis of what was happening on a daily basis served as
2 information as to what were the enemy's intentions towards us.
3 Q. General, sir, this says that this is the situation as it was at
4 1700 hours. How often -- how frequently did you send those daily
5 reports? Should one expect another report to have been issued on the
6 same day?
7 A. Not on that day but there could have been an interim combat
8 report. This is a regular combat report which provides the information
9 about the situation of the past 24 hours. However, any incidents that
10 may have happened in the meantime, grave incidents, new situations, are
11 included in an interim report which is sent to the superior command.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2819, Your Honours.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D7514.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. This is a regular combat report which was sent on the
19 16th of July, 1993, at 1700 hours. Could you please tell us where was
20 fire opened on that day? We can all read it, but let's look at the
21 bullet point starting with 2305 hours from the Visoko direction and at
22 2300 hours, Sokolje, and so on and so forth. Could you please read
23 bullet point 1 before bullet point 2.
24 A. Well, it says here information on the enemy. In a nutshell, it
25 says that the enemy was very active in the zones of responsibility. The
Page 32805
1 report goes on to mention the axis, the axis of the Igman Brigade, the
2 Ilijas Brigade, the Vogosca Tactical Group, that tactical group later on
3 changed its name and it was no longer a tactical group, it was the 3rd
4 Sarajevo Brigade. Within that tactical group, there was the Kosevo
5 Brigade and there was all -- there is also an indicator pointing to the
6 fact that there was the 1st Romanija Brigade and the 1st Sarajevo
7 Brigade. So the first bullet point shows the axis and the deployment of
8 forces and then it reports on their activities, mentioning the times when
9 fire was opened, either during the day or during the night. In this
10 case, I would say that there are details of that fire, where it was
11 opened, and how strong it was.
12 Q. What we are missing in the transcript is that their activities
13 were recorded by the minutes as well. We see sometimes in the report
14 such as 2130, et cetera. Was such detail required of your analysis,
15 always to record the exact time?
16 A. I also see here that the enemy forces, with the assistance of
17 UNPROFOR, crossed over the airport runway, moving towards Butmir and
18 Sokolovic Kolonija. It is visible movement given the proximity of the
19 Ilidza Brigade forces. They could see such movement and could see that
20 UNPROFOR tolerated it. Although the airport had not been handed over to
21 that end, it was to be used for other purposes.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please go down to the bottom
24 of the page so as to see whether it's your signature. And can we have
25 this admitted?
Page 32806
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is my signature.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted?
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2820, Your Honours.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D32000. 1D32000.
6 This doesn't seem to be it. 1D32000. No -- yes, that's it.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. So as not to waste time, General, sir, kindly introduced --
9 introduce the fourth, or rather, the penultimate bullet point in item 1:
10 "At around 1245 ..."
11 A. The fourth item?
12 Q. The fourth bullet point of item 1. How many Muslim soldiers were
13 moving about from Sokolovic Kolonija or to Sokolovic Kolonija?
14 A. Do bear with me.
15 Q. It says: "At around 1245 ..."
16 A. Now I understand. It's not the fourth row. I was looking for
17 the fourth row. You say "bullet point." I wasn't aware of that. Sorry.
18 "At about 1245 about some 300 Turks moved from Hrasnica to
19 Sokolovic Kolonija and groups of motor vehicles came from the direction
20 of Igman to Hrasnica on several occasions."
21 So this movement was detected and the forces specified as well as
22 their direction. We have this estimate of 300 people, which is a force
23 of respectable size, moving in that direction.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the next page.
Page 32807
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. By the way, you didn't sign it, someone else did. Perhaps you
3 can tell us who, or rather, whether it was you or not.
4 A. Can I provide an explanation regarding the signature? Authorised
5 personnel could sign documents, but they should note that they were
6 acting on behalf of someone else because the person authorised to issue
7 such orders happens to be absent at that moment, whereas the person who
8 signed it had the authority to do it in the other person's stead.
9 Q. Can we look at item 8. It refers to an estimate by your side as
10 to what that kind of movement could mean.
11 A. Yes. The meaning is clear. It was our conclusion because any
12 observed event needs to be interpreted by our side and what it means for
13 us. It was our conclusion that they were grouping forces in the area of
14 Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija and Stojcevac. The concentration of
15 their forces meant something to us, either they were preparing an attack
16 or some other kind of activity. In any case, we had to be aware of it.
17 It should not go unnoticed and without an adequate interpretation by our
18 side.
19 Q. Thank you. Just a brief lexical reference. How did we call
20 those Serbs who were converted to Islam, who became Turks?
21 A. How we referred to them?
22 Q. The word in the first line.
23 A. I know what you're referring to. I was never in favour of
24 labelling anyone. They were our enemy and that's what the document
25 should have stated. Perhaps words were used that were not necessary and
Page 32808
1 I was against that. I never supported such practice.
2 Q. Thank you. Did you know that in addition to this term there was
3 a derogatory term for Muslims and do you know what it was or is?
4 A. That's exactly what I was referring to. I do know of the term
5 but I don't want to utter it even if it were in the document. I think
6 they were referred to as "balijas," although I have no clue what it
7 actually means, or this word "poturice," or "Turks." I remember someone
8 asking: What are Turkish people doing in Bosnia? It seemed to have been
9 an intelligent person to put that question. It wasn't fair on our part
10 to use such words.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted?
13 JUDGE KWON: Just for record, could you read out paragraph 8.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you zoom in?
15 JUDGE KWON: Or if you agree, Ms. Edgerton, that the "read"
16 should read "real."
17 MS. EDGERTON: Of course.
18 JUDGE KWON: There is a issue with interpretation. Let's move
19 on.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "It is noteworthy that the Turks
21 are concentrating forces in the Hrasnica-Sokolovic Kolonija sector
22 amounting to a realistic attack on the positions of the Ilidza Brigade ."
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have it admitted?
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2821, Your Honours.
Page 32809
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D32003. We'll skip
2 some documents as we don't have enough time to go through each and every
3 report.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. General, sir, it is a regular combat report issued at 5.00 p.m.,
6 referring to the 10th of August, 1993. The second paragraph, where it
7 refers to the sports centre, could you read it out loud.
8 A. Item 2: "The units engaged" --
9 Q. No, the bullet point: "From the sports centre."
10 A. "From the Hrasnica sports centre, during the day, a
11 20-millimetre gun fired four shells in the area of our positions as well
12 as one shell from the 82-millimetre mortar."
13 The next bullet point:
14 "Throughout the day the enemy opened sniper fire on Grbavica,
15 Lukavica, Dobrinja, and Vojkovici."
16 Q. Where is the Hrasnica sports centre and was it the only instance
17 of fire being opened from the Hrasnica sports centre?
18 A. It is in Hrasnica itself. It is a location in Hrasnica on its
19 eastern side, unless I have forgotten some things in the meantime. I
20 know where it is because they had the Famos football club which existed
21 there and enjoyed quite good ratings. It was in a lower-rank league
22 level of competition, but it is in any case in Hrasnica, close to the
23 railroad.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have it admitted?
Page 32810
1 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
2 MS. EDGERTON: The document's authentic, Your Honours. On that
3 basis, I don't have a problem with it coming in.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D2822 , Your Honours.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. The last document from
7 this batch of reports is 1D7517.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. General, sir, the document is dated the 6th of November, 1994, by
10 which time you had already become the corps commander; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The second bullet point in item 2:
13 "In the area of responsibility of the Ilidza Brigade ..." and so
14 on and so forth.
15 Can you read it out loud, please.
16 A. Please bear with me. This item indicates the degree of threat
17 for the Ilidza Brigade and the territory of Ilidza municipality. Since
18 the first part refers to activity coming from the direction of Hrasnica
19 and Sokolovic Kolonija, it goes on -- or rather, it's the same commander
20 confirming what kind of activity was in his area of Brijesce, just
21 further afield from Rajlovac. It was relatively close and from there
22 they could engage Ilidza.
23 Q. Thank you, General. Did you retaliate by firing an aerial bomb
24 in this situation? Or in the previous case when they opened fire from
25 the sports centre, did you launch an aerial bomb?
Page 32811
1 A. You mean in Hrasnica?
2 Q. Did you retaliate against the firing positions where the fire had
3 come from at Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija and the sports centre?
4 A. We did return fire concerning the instance involving Hrasnica
5 that we had on the screen, but whether it was on this specific date, I
6 can't confirm that at this time.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the next page.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. General, the item number 2, "Our forces," please read out the
11 first five or six lines. Perhaps you can start from the sentence: "In
12 the area of the Nisic plateau ..."
13 A. Yes.
14 "In the area of the Nisic plateau during the day there was fierce
15 fighting along the entire front line" --
16 Q. Sorry to interrupt.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page in the
18 English, please.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "... due to strong artillery and
20 infantry fire, our forces were forced to retreat repeatedly. By 4 p.m.
21 they were at the line Bibici village - Gradina," and we have the trig
22 point, 1121, "Nanici - Borak" --
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. That's fine. We don't need all the locations. What does it mean
25 due to strong artillery and infantry fire and their superiority in the
Page 32812
1 field?
2 A. Well, it's logical, the logic being that no one can attempt a
3 breakthrough by using infantry along an axis unless they have strong
4 artillery support. It is a precondition for any infantry advance. In
5 this case, we established that the enemy force was of such high morale
6 and supported by their artillery so that we had to use ours to respond.
7 Q. When did the offensive at the Nisic plateau begin? This is dated
8 the 6th or 5th of May [as interpreted], but when did the fighting start?
9 A. I tried to provide information and indicators showing their
10 decision to engage in offensive action in the second half of the year.
11 But, to be more precise, on the 1st of August, the 1st Corps achieved
12 success in Nisic. On the 1st of August, via the village of Brgule, which
13 was a Serbian village -- I'm telling you what the axis was because their
14 movements started from Dastanjsko, all this was in the wider area of the
15 mountain. So from there, they were firing from Brgule part of the Niksic
16 plateau and they took part of the territory on the 1st of August, as I've
17 already said.
18 In their first regrouping and when they prepared additionally,
19 they continued this activity, which you can see here took place in
20 November. This was a fierce attack and they arrived close to a line
21 running from Olovo to Sarajevo. And for their television, they reported
22 on television that they had already broken through to Nisic and arrived
23 there, but that was not true because we managed to stop them. We
24 invested a huge effort and managed to stop them there, and that's where
25 the line remained until the end of the war. We were at threat, the
Page 32813
1 threat was enormous. There would have been no further resistance and
2 they would have managed to breakthrough to Vogosca and join their forces
3 in Sarajevo.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 19, page 26, it's not the
5 5th or 6th of May but the 5th or 6th of November. Can we go back to page
6 1, please.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. General, sir, what does this mean: "IKM Nisici village"? And
9 who was there at the time?
10 A. Well, it's clear, of course. "IKM" means "forward command post."
11 What was the problem for the command there and for the functioning of the
12 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was that we had to have part of our forces to
13 monitor the situation and to command the corps. Part of that had to be
14 in Nisici and the other part in -- another part in Trnovo. And the rest
15 of the command was in Lukavica. The commander was duty-bound to be
16 either at a forward command post himself or to have his Chief of Staff or
17 chief operations officer on the ground there in order to command the
18 forces and make sure that the enemy did not break through due to poor
19 command.
20 Q. Thank you, General, sir. Please can you give us brief replies
21 because the Chamber already knows a lot about how the army functioned.
22 Can you tell us who was at this forward command post at Nisici at the
23 time we're referring to, in November 1994?
24 A. If you let me look at the signature, I'll tell you who it was.
25 You see, the document was processed. I was at Nisici at the time because
Page 32814
1 it's not signed because I couldn't be in the operations room to sign this
2 myself, but I was there.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May it be admitted?
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2823, Your Honours.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we briefly look at P2420,
8 Exhibit P2420. Thank you.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. General, sir, the first sentence says that there was information
11 that the civil authorities met the commander, that was on the
12 7th of November, and that they met on the 5th of November. So in view of
13 the fact that you were at Nisici, what can you tell us about this
14 document? Did a meeting take place and did you attend it?
15 A. As I said yesterday, I am certain that this is fabricated. I
16 don't know for what reason. I have no idea why somebody would want to
17 invent such a document, but I can affirm that I never had any kind of
18 meeting with the civil authorities, let alone a meeting at which the use
19 of certain units in combat was discussed. I reject this totally.
20 And I know that the OTP conducted an investigation and
21 interviewed Mr. Prstojevic, the president of Ilidza municipality, as a
22 person who was one of the leaders at the time, and he also stated that
23 this meeting was never held, that he knew nothing about it. And he also
24 stated that what it says here, that I discussed things with someone else,
25 that he thought that I, as a normal person, would never agree to what is
Page 32815
1 described here. And this is in the interview between the OTP
2 investigator and that gentleman, but the record of this interview never
3 arrived here at the ICTY.
4 Q. Thank you. Before the break another question. Was your command
5 ever influenced by the civilian authorities and especially the SDS or its
6 leaders?
7 A. No, they had no influence whatsoever on my work. My
8 understanding was that the civil authorities understood that they were
9 unavailable to influence me, not because they were prevented from doing
10 their work but because they saw that it would not be rational or
11 intelligent to try. When it comes to imposing standpoints and so on,
12 they refrained from that sort of thing. They didn't become involved in
13 that. I am glad that they took my requests into account. Of course I
14 did have to have certain contacts with them, but it's well-known that the
15 army can only deal with army matters and not engage in political affairs.
16 Q. And the civil authorities of Republika Srpska, did they interfere
17 in purely military matters?
18 A. No, no. I never experienced that from any person or structure of
19 the government, either through any activities carried on by the cabinet
20 or the Presidency. We never had an opportunity to meet; but when we did
21 meet, we never discussed combat activities to be carried out by the
22 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. And the politics never influenced the military
23 situation.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is it the right time for a break,
Page 32816
1 Your Excellencies, or should I continue?
2 JUDGE KWON: Before we break, can we see the previous document
3 again, Exhibit D2823.
4 General, if we see the first page of this document, we know that
5 it was sent by SRK to the various units, such as Main Staff,
6 Herzegovina Corps, Drina Corps, and the forward command post in Nisic.
7 Am I correct?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, you are, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE KWON: But how do we know that it was sent from the IKM?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document was not sent from the
11 forward command post. It was sent from the command, and it says here
12 that a copy was sent to the forward command post.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Then you said we can know that by this
14 document you were in Nisici at the time. Could you explain a bit further
15 how we can know that.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For me as the commander to know
17 what the contents of the message were that was sent to the Main Staff
18 after the document was processed, it -- from the forward command post the
19 document was sent to the operations centre, and then in the operations
20 centre all the documents were brought together and compiled into a single
21 document. And then a copy was sent to me for me to see what was actually
22 forwarded to the Main Staff. So that was one reason.
23 Secondly, as I know that because of the threat when the
24 1st Romanija Corps and some of the forces were at great risk, as soon as
25 I received the information about the combat activities and the
Page 32817
1 breakthroughs, I had to be there and I was there, I did go there. And on
2 my honour, I confirm that I was there.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But it says -- it was omitted in
4 the interpretation that the General said: I was unable to sign. Maybe
5 he could explain why he was unable to sign the document.
6 JUDGE KWON: He said that in his earlier answer. For planning
7 purposes, how much longer do you need, Mr. Karadzic?
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At least by the end of today. I
10 hope I'll be finished today. If I ask the General to make his responses
11 very brief, although his exhaustive replies are useful, if I can get
12 succinct replies I will be finished today.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll have a break for half an hour and
15 resume at 11.06.
16 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellencies.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. General, sir, the use of snipers is very prominent in the
22 indictment against me. I have to ask you, in general terms, a very
23 general question: What is a sniper in a military formation and how is it
24 used? What is a sniper rifle?
25 A. A sniper rifle is an infantry weapon. It is used by the
Page 32818
1 infantry. As a matter of fact, we had sniper rifles, 7.9-millimetres,
2 M76. Its calibre was 7.9, as I've already told you. That rifle fired
3 sniper ammunition and optical sights for spotting targets.
4 Q. When you say "sniper rifle ammunition," would you say that this
5 differs from other 7.9-calibre ammunition and especially from the
6 7.62-millimetre automatic rifle ammunition?
7 A. Yes, there is a difference, absolutely. You cannot use the same
8 type of ammunition in a sniper rifle of 7.9-calibre. You cannot use the
9 same calibre ammunition that is intended for other types of weapons. A
10 sniper rifle has its own sniper rifle ammunition.
11 I'll try and be succinct in providing my answer. Maybe this was
12 already enough.
13 In any case, my defence counsel could not distinguish between
14 those two things, so when the Prosecutor put to him: See how much
15 7.9-calibre ammunition you order and that was to be used in sniper
16 rifles, I tried to explain to him that that ammunition could not be used
17 in sniper rifles and that the quantities ordered could not be used in
18 evidence that that ammunition was used by sniper rifles. I could not
19 explain that to him and he never used my argument.
20 Q. Could you please remind us what other purposes does the
21 7.9-millimetre ammunition have?
22 A. It can be used for the rifle M48. This is an old type of rifle
23 that was used by the JNA and that was part of the armament of our army,
24 the Army of Republika Srpska. Furthermore, a machine-gun can also use
25 7.9-millimetre ammunition, and I believe that the story ends there. I
Page 32819
1 don't want to go into any other types of ammunition, such as Zbrojovka.
2 The most important types of weapons are the two that I mentioned at the
3 beginning of my answer.
4 Q. Thank you. What kind of fire was opened by machine-guns and what
5 is the average consumption of ammunition? Can bursts of fire be opened?
6 How many rounds does a machine-gun use?
7 A. M42 machine-guns are automatic weapons with high velocity. It
8 has a belt. I can't remember the velocity of firing, but those bursts of
9 fire cannot be compared with the fire opened by a sniper rifle because a
10 sniper rifle can fire only individual bullets. And another thing that
11 I've not explained so far is the fact that the sniper rifle is a
12 semi-automatic rifle so it cannot fire bursts of fire.
13 Q. In other words, if somebody was hit by a single bullet which was
14 part of a burst of fire, could that have been a bullet fired by a sniper
15 rifle?
16 A. No, no. It could not have been fired by a sniper rifle because a
17 sniper rifle cannot fire bursts of fire.
18 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us whether an investigation or
19 an analysis of projectiles could yield a conclusion as to whether a
20 bullet was fired from a sniper rifle or from an M84 or a machine-gun?
21 A. I'm sure that it would be possible, but I'm not saying that as an
22 expert but as a person who knows, who was told, that those are two
23 different rounds, two different bullets.
24 Q. Did you ever receive an analysis as the Chief of Staff or a corps
25 command or the results of an investigation that provided a conclusive
Page 32820
1 finding as to whether a bullet was fired from a sniper rifle or from some
2 other rifle?
3 A. No, never in the course of the last war.
4 Q. In all of your units, did you have sniper rifles? Did you have
5 them at the forward front line turned outwards and turned inwards and why
6 did you have them? What was their intended use?
7 A. All units had sniper rifles. It was our obligation, it was our
8 duty, to provide every combat unit with its sniper rifles and a dedicated
9 marksman. That principle applied across the board in the entire zone of
10 responsibility, and especially in the areas where there was a high
11 concentration of enemy sniper rifles, that's where we had our sniper
12 rifles and our marksmen as well.
13 Furthermore, it was not easy to choose marksmen and it was not a
14 simple procedure. A marksman had to possess certain qualities. First of
15 all, they were not supposed to have a criminal record. They could not be
16 short-sighted and they had to be patient and they had to be trained. If
17 they are not trained, formally trained, if they had not been trained by
18 the JNA, their military specialty was 11-101 [as interpreted], just like
19 any other marksman, but their military specialty was specified and they
20 were known as marksman specialists and that was their qualification from
21 the JNA. And then the officers would decide whether those people would
22 be hired.
23 Let me add to that that our soldiers did not want to be
24 sharpshooters, given the close vicinity of the front line, the high level
25 of danger, and especially because they placed more trust in weapons that
Page 32821
1 could open bursts of fire in close contact because they were more
2 efficient and they provided more security. Another thing was that
3 sharpshooters were static. They had to remain in one place and they had
4 to be very patient. They had to be very focused in order to be able to
5 spot the enemy sharpshooter. That was their main task, to observe enemy
6 sharpshooters. We arrived at the information that on the opposite side
7 there was quite a lot of people who used those weapons against us and
8 they had to be engaged. And another task of a sharpshooter was to detect
9 other targets that may have been of significance for the enemy and for us
10 they posed a threat; for example, other weapons or important military
11 personnel.
12 Let me say at the beginning of my answer that no matter who a
13 sharpshooter was, they were never issued an order to open fire on
14 civilians and they never did that. They were never told to do that and
15 they never did it.
16 Q. You mentioned that your enemy on the other side had sharpshooters
17 which opened fire. When did they first obtain sniper rifles and when
18 were they active and where?
19 A. Within Sarajevo there was a special MUP brigade which was always
20 known as the Brigade Bosna or the Bosnia Brigade. Those men were
21 primarily trained as sniper shooters. They knew how to use sniper
22 rifles. That was their paramount quality.
23 Second of all, we knew that there was a group which was known as
24 Seve. They were our archenemies. They were deployed in the school of
25 machine engineering. They were on top of the building of the Assembly,
Page 32822
1 the building of the government. They did not think twice who to shoot.
2 They killed civilians as well. They had to be detected and that's why we
3 had sniper shooters, to engage them. They had sniper rifles but they
4 also had the rifles known as Dragon. I don't know what its specific
5 characteristics were. I only know that those rifles were better than the
6 7.9 semi-automatic rifles.
7 Q. Are we talking about the 5.56- or 12.7-millimetre calibre? I'm
8 talking about the Dragon.
9 A. I don't think it's 12.7, it's too large. I don't know. I don't
10 want to speculate. I don't know much about that rifle, but I know that
11 they had it because I was told that by others who knew more about it. I
12 knew it was the so-called Dragon rifle.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D40665.
14 1D40665.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see anything.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. I'm going to read, General, sir, I'm waiting for the English
18 translation. The document was issued on the 6th of March, 1993.
19 The efficient engagement of sniper shooters. And it says:
20 Further to letter strictly confidential so and so, I hereby issue
21 the following order. First of all, all sniper shooters in battalions
22 should be on duty in all weather conditions whenever possible.
23 And now the rest -- may be we can go to the following page in
24 English.
25 All sniper shooters have to be qualified as soldiers, sniper
Page 32823
1 shooter capable of returning fire and performing tasks during night or
2 day.
3 Did the other side have conditions in place to use sniper rifles
4 during night and did they indeed use them?
5 A. Yes. It's not about sniper fire at night. It's fire opened at
6 night with a -- from a weapon which is not a sniper rifle. It is a rifle
7 with a passive optical sights. Passive optical sights imply that through
8 them you can observe targets during night and you can open fire during
9 night as you could during the day. In any case, when it comes to sniper
10 rifles we're talking about a different thing. Sniper rifles are one
11 thing and passive optical sights are another thing and they're used at
12 night. Maybe the distinction that was made here is not good.
13 Q. And what about this order where it says that they should be used
14 in all weather conditions, they should be used at all times? How is that
15 possible?
16 A. That means that they opted for that type of fire, for that type
17 of activity and actions, i.e., that they wanted to use those weapons all
18 the time en masse in order to neutralise or destroy our positions.
19 Q. Was Sulejman Imsirevic's order carried out? Is that how they
20 behaved? Is that what they did?
21 A. The events and developments on the ground confirmed that this
22 order was implemented because we experienced that fire. That fire was as
23 it is described in here. That fire was opened and it -- and we felt it
24 on our own skin.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask my associates to
Page 32824
1 talk to the CLSS to complete the uncomplete translation, and in that
2 respect I would like to offer this document into evidence.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, if it is your case and the evidence of
4 General Milosevic that the Serb forces never issued an order to open fire
5 on civilians and that it never took place, that would be it for your
6 defence. Why do we need this kind of evidence, i.e., the sniping on the
7 part of Muslims, at all?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, the witness gave
9 me a reason for which he had sniper rifles. The goal was to neutralise
10 Muslim sniper rifles in town and to neutralise other legitimate military
11 targets. As for the Muslim sniper shooters in town and where they were
12 employed and how they operated, this is what this document describes and
13 confirms. They were active all the time.
14 JUDGE KWON: Please bear in mind that you were never indicted for
15 having snipers at all.
16 Ms. Edgerton, about this document.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Well, Your Honour, I actually don't think we know
18 what it is, what military unit it relates to, under whose command the
19 unit fell, what zone it operated in. We know absolutely nothing about
20 the document.
21 JUDGE KWON: But did the witness not confirm Sulejman Imsirevic?
22 MS. EDGERTON: He confirmed that -- he said in response to
23 Dr. Karadzic's question:
24 "Was Mr. Imsirevic's order issued?"
25 He said:
Page 32825
1 "Yes."
2 I don't think that satisfies any of the issues I just raised.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, could you kindly read out the title
4 of this document because it hasn't been fully translated.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm providing the following answer.
6 These are the early days of their existence and you see that their name
7 at the time was the command of the military unit and its number was 5457,
8 which implies that it was a military composition. Second of all, they
9 were deciding how they would engage their manpower, how they would
10 operate. There are no ambiguities there. However, the most important
11 thing is that the document shows that from day one they had at their
12 disposal this contingent of weaponry which could open fire in a certain
13 way. So it was no novelty. Later on --
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- that they continued to operate
16 on the same principle and that it -- that continued throughout the war.
17 JUDGE KWON: What I asked you is to read the title of this
18 document because it's not fully translated in English. The English says:
19 "More efficient engagement of" and illegible. Engagement of
20 what?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sniper shooters, snipers.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit it.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D2824, Your Honours.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 32826
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. General, sir, while you were still in command of the
3 1st Romanija unit, did you have information on the activity of their
4 snipers?
5 A. Yes, we did.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D7518.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. This is one of your documents. It is a regular combat report.
9 The stamp reads the 25th of July, 1992. Kindly look at line 3 of item 1.
10 "During the day the enemy continued with intensive sniper fire,
11 engaging almost the entire line of defence of the brigade, with
12 particularly strong fire from the IV," or Executive Council, "building,
13 the Marsal Tito barracks and Pofalici (the wide high-rise) ..."
14 Further below it mentions Banja Lucka Street where a soldier was
15 killed.
16 "The sniper fire at this point is so strong that it is virtually
17 blocking the entry of pedestrians to the settlement of Grbavica."
18 Do you recall this and what can you tell us about it?
19 A. I think it suffices for me to confirm whether what is stated in
20 the document indeed took place. Everything developed literally the way
21 put here, including their firing position and the area which they
22 targeted. They influenced every aspect of life in the area. I can
23 confirm what the document states. One could clearly observe and feel
24 that.
25 Q. The wide high-rise you mentioned in Pofalici, was that a
Page 32827
1 residential building?
2 A. Yes, of course.
3 Q. General, sir, tell us what was the position on using snipers in
4 the city on the part of the SRK and what was the policy of the other
5 side, that is to say, the 1st Corps of the Army of BH?
6 A. What do you mean exactly "position"? I can specify the
7 regulations we set in place according to which instructions were issued
8 to our officers and snipers, their soldiers. That's what I can discuss.
9 Q. General, actually I was interested in the interest of the SRK.
10 Were you interested in maintaining and perpetuating sniper activity and
11 what was the interest of the 1st Corps regarding the same issue?
12 A. I hope I'll answer clearly since I'm now providing my opinion and
13 that's what I can formulate. When we learned of their activity being
14 used en masse and excessively, I dare say, we had to create a structure
15 which would address that. In order to efficiently engage such opposing
16 forces we tried to aim our activities at that but were never fully
17 successful.
18 Q. Why were you in favour of anti-sniping agreements?
19 A. It is well-known once you receive such extensive activity from
20 the other side which becomes unbearable, one looks for a way out. And it
21 is only good that there were some sort of mediators or go-betweens who
22 were attempting to reach an agreement. In this case, it would have made
23 it easier on us to a certain extent and indeed the agreement was reached.
24 Q. While we're still on page 1, I'll read out the following and
25 perhaps you can confirm whether I read it accurately. The diplomacy or
Page 32828
1 something else and UNPROFOR for sniper cease-fire. It seems to be a
2 handwritten remark. Is that something of yours or was it written by
3 someone from your command who received the report?
4 A. This is not my handwriting. Yes, I'm aware of this suggestion.
5 When I ordered that contact be established with UNPROFOR in order to
6 raise the issue of sniper cease-fire, in particular by the other side, we
7 had to work with them on reaching an agreement. It is not my handwriting
8 but the suggestion is mine. We were trying basically to contact UNPROFOR
9 through our security organ.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to page 2, item 8, or
12 maybe the last page or the third page, whatever it is in the English.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. So as not to read out the whole thing, what was your suggestion
15 in item 8?
16 A. I suggested what it says, I've been saying it all along. The
17 intensity of sniper fire by the enemy has risen to such level where we
18 need to come up with a solution in order to have it stopped. That would
19 be it.
20 Q. Thank you. How did your suggestion fare? Was an agreement
21 reached?
22 A. Yes, on the 14th of August, that is to say, shortly after I
23 assumed the duty of corps commander, which was on the 10th, the agreement
24 was reached on the 14th. It was signed at the airport. I signed for our
25 side and Mr. Karavelic, the 1st Corps commander, signed on behalf of the
Page 32829
1 other side.
2 Q. Thank you. The following sentence of yours which says:
3 As of the moment when cease-fire was announced until today we
4 have been suffering more losses due to sniper fire than we had before the
5 cease-fire.
6 Is that accurate?
7 A. Yes, that is actually what happened to us.
8 Q. Did cease-fire agreements allow for sniper activity?
9 A. Of course once there is an agreement in place it is understood
10 not to use them. That was the agreement. One needs both sides for an
11 agreement. You cannot agree on something unilaterally. The agreement
12 was reached and it was a temporary cease-fire, in my view.
13 Q. General, can you tell us why it took two years to actually
14 implement your proposal, that is to say, that the other side would accept
15 your proposal and that UNPROFOR would secure the implementation, why the
16 two years?
17 A. Everyone is aware of their reasons. I only know that it should
18 have taken place earlier. Now, why the other side was not prepared to
19 accept that, well, they needed the situation in which there were constant
20 provocations in order to draw fire so that they could portray themselves
21 as the side in danger and that they could be considered the side that is
22 in danger by our activity, as our side being the main reason of their
23 plight.
24 Q. Which side are you referring to?
25 A. The side where the 1st Corps was, that is to say, the Muslim
Page 32830
1 side.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted?
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2825, Your Honours.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we have 1D7519.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. It is your regular combat report dated the 25th of July, 1992.
9 In item 1 you say:
10 "The enemy is continuing with intensive sniper fire ..."
11 In the third paragraph you say:
12 "The brigade units during the day did not engage although they
13 were incessantly fired at from snipers."
14 In item 5 you say:
15 "The morale in our units remains unchanged as compared to the
16 previous day. There are frequent violations of cease-fire by the enemy
17 which is keeping our fighters and civilians tense around the clock. We
18 demand that UNPROFOR be informed."
19 A. I have nothing else to say, other than it was an indication that
20 we were looking for a way out, even communicating with some other factors
21 who could restrain the enemy side in this activity of theirs. In this
22 particular instance, the sniping was so threatening that the entire issue
23 of waging war any further came into question because one cannot survive
24 long under such circumstances and we had to come up with someone to
25 protect us.
Page 32831
1 Q. General, in item 5, did you enjoy any of the benefits of
2 cease-fire on the Serb side?
3 A. The situation of the civilians and the people there in general
4 was such that they were constantly feeling threatened, endangered. I
5 cannot describe it fully. Perhaps I can only say that I had entire
6 groups of people come begging for some additional protection in the areas
7 where they lived. They thought that perhaps we could step-up our fire in
8 order to restrain the other side. And they would tell us, for example,
9 that the elderly people could not enjoy their senior years, their
10 children could not enjoy their adulthood, and their grandchildren could
11 not enjoy their childhood. We tried to convince them to the best of our
12 power that we would try and do something, and this included engaging
13 other instances to communicate with the other side.
14 Q. [No interpretation]
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Karadzic repeat his question. The
16 speakers overlapped.
17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
18 Could you repeat your question.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Did UNPROFOR manage to achieve anything with regard to your pleas
21 in July 1992?
22 A. I cannot confirm whether they achieved anything then. I can
23 confirm, however, that in the contacts with UNPROFOR commanders or some
24 of their senior structures, I was happy to hear that they had a proposal
25 which I accepted. They called it "no death day," to have a day without
Page 32832
1 deaths. And they asked me if I would accept it. And my response was:
2 Would you ask a person dying of thirst whether he wants to drink? Of
3 course. There were requests which I accepted and I stressed that no such
4 day can come about unless the other side honours it as well. And they
5 said they would try to achieve that.
6 Even if there was a day like that, the very next day people were
7 being killed again. I believe the other side was looking for a solution
8 as well. I accepted UNPROFOR's proposal but it didn't live too long.
9 Q. Thank you. Did the SRK undertake any counter-measures at a
10 certain point, organising their own sniping unit and to what end?
11 A. Well, the end or the aim was always the same, which was to
12 counteract those engaging in the very same activity.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted?
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2826, Your Honours.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have P1010 in e-court.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. General, the document is dated the 4th of November, 1992, the
19 command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. It was sent to all units. It
20 is -- its reference line reads: "Designating locations for snipers in
21 the zones of responsibility."
22 It reads:
23 "Based on reports of the commands of subordinated units on the
24 enemy sniper activities, the identified fire positions at certain axes
25 and the enemy troops' passages to Dobrinja from Butmir via the
Page 32833
1 airport ... I hereby issue the following ..."
2 Do you recall this?
3 A. It is not important whether I remember it or not. I know the
4 gist or the point of this order. It was our side looking for a way to
5 counteract their activity and to address their movements and other sorts
6 of activity.
7 Q. Thank you. Before I move on, do we have a permission or an order
8 to engage civilians or to undertake any illegal activity by sniping?
9 A. That is impossible. There are no circumstances or situations in
10 which the commander at any level could even contemplate, let alone say
11 it, to open fire at non-military targets. In this case, too, such orders
12 could not be issued. No one would be allowed to target civilians.
13 Q. Thank you. My question was not interpreted completely. I asked
14 whether the preamble specifying the reasons also refers to any targeting
15 of civilians?
16 A. No, there is no such thing.
17 Q. As regards the well-known sniping incidents, did anyone from the
18 SRK take part in investigations? Were there any investigations which
19 could conclusively find what sort of ammunition was used and what was the
20 firing position?
21 A. There were always investigations in such situations when we knew
22 what had happened, when we received information that something had
23 happened. When we were not aware of something taking place, then no
24 investigation was possible. What is important, though, is that when we
25 were aware of a particular incident there was an investigation.
Page 32834
1 Q. Did you have occasion to participate in on-site investigations on
2 the other side? Were you allowed to take part in order to objectively
3 ascertain the facts?
4 A. That was not possible, nor was it allowed. I know that the
5 Main Staff issued a request to that effect. They wanted an investigation
6 to be carried out by a team of people who hailed from the territory of
7 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, or rather, those who were members of the
8 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
9 Q. Thank you. In the indictment against me, several incidents are
10 mentioned and it is claimed that the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps opened
11 sniper fire on trams and other means of public transport. What can you
12 say about that?
13 A. I can say that I know that this is part of your indictment. Now
14 I hear it from you. It was also part of my indictment. I can't say
15 anything else but that. I know that in situations when fire was opened
16 from the other side and then we responded by fire, either cross-fire or
17 fire opened in one direction, I know that it could happen that due to
18 that fire bullets could also hit trams.
19 I had information to the effect that - and I will share that with
20 you although I could not verify that information - that citizens were
21 told not to worry when they took trams, fire would be opened to protect
22 you. As a result of that, citizens dared get on the trams and travel in
23 the direction of the city. That should not have been done because when
24 they opened fire we had to react, we had to respond by opening fire
25 against them. And when we did that, an odd bullet could hit a tram.
Page 32835
1 That's what I know from the indicators that I had at my disposal.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D32009.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. This is your regular combat report issued on the 19th of August,
5 1993. And now I would like to show you the second page. We don't have
6 the time to go through the entire document.
7 It says here: In the course of the day, the enemy opened sniper
8 fire on Lukavica, [indiscernible] and Vojkovici from its position and
9 especially from Mojmilo and Dobrinja.
10 Are these civilian settlements that are enumerated here,
11 Grbavica, Lukavica, Nedzarici, and Vojkovici?
12 A. Yes.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get the following page in
14 Serbian as well.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Bullet point 8. It says here: Conclusions, forecasts, and
17 decisions.
18 "The enemy violates the cease-fire and provokes. On the whole
19 our forces are adhering to the cease-fire and return fire only when
20 authorised. And now it is expected that the enemy will increase
21 operations particularly on Sarajevo to provoke our forces into opening
22 fire.
23 "The enemy is continually digging in and getting closer to our
24 lines at Stojcevac, Dobrinja, Stupsko Brdo, and Mojmilo."
25 Would this constitute crawling towards our conditions [as
Page 32836
1 interpreted] by means of digging in and digging trenches and is that
2 allowed during a period of cease-fire?
3 A. We called this biting into our positions. This is a type of
4 activity which, under the guise of reinforcing one's position, sees
5 soldiers moving closer towards the units of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps,
6 which constitutes a threat to the further course of the conflict and our
7 existence. The agreement implied that the front line would be peaceful
8 in every aspect and at all times. It excluded anything else including
9 additional digging in.
10 Q. And what about this, Serbs are digging in groups of 10 to
11 15 people?
12 A. Those were people who found themselves in their prisons. The
13 biggest number of people was in the silos in Tarcin, and those people
14 were engaged to dig trenches and shelters. Those men actually
15 constructed the tunnel under the airport. They were the ones who dug it
16 out.
17 Q. Thank you. And now the last sentence says the following:
18 "The units have been ordered to open sniper fire on targets
19 observed" --
20 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, could we ask the General to read out
21 that sentence.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The units have been ordered to
23 exclusively open sniper fire on the targets they observe that pose a
24 threat to our soldiers."
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 32837
1 Q. General, sir --
2 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, just a second --
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. -- this word, has it been stricken through or underlined?
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I think I heard "samo" from the witness but it
6 was not translated.
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes that the word "samo" can
8 be interpreted as "exclusively."
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you.
10 Please continue.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. General, what do you think, is this word "samo" stricken through
13 or underlined? What do you think, does this remain as part of your
14 order?
15 A. Yes, it's underlined. This "samo" is underlined. It's not very
16 clear. It's a bit badly done, but the entire sense remains as it is.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the document be admitted?
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D2827, Your Honours.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Given that order that you issued, would you say that this implies
22 opening sniper fire on civilians?
23 A. No, no. Everybody understood that.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now I would like to call up
Page 32838
1 65 ter 12336.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. This was signed on your behalf by somebody else. We will see it
4 on the last page. However, this is a regular combat report issued at
5 1700 hours on the 10th of August, 1994.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we scroll up a little and see
7 what it says here about the units.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. It says here:
10 "Our units successfully repelled all enemy attacks. They
11 responded to enemy provocations. It was the 3rd Sarajevo Infantry
12 Brigade and the Ilijas Infantry Brigade that responded from infantry
13 weapons and mortars as well as by opening sniper fire."
14 A. And what do you expect from me?
15 Q. I did not complete. I'm going to read slowly because we don't
16 have an official translation.
17 Further down it says:
18 "Sniper fire from the 3rd Sarajevo Infantry Brigade killed two
19 enemy soldiers. One of them was a komandir," or a commander, "the
20 UNPROFOR soldiers have informed us about that, seeking approval to pull
21 their bodies out."
22 Did UNPROFOR protest therefore or did they understand that as a
23 legitimate operation and did they ask to pull their bodies out?
24 A. They didn't -- UNPROFOR did not react adversely. They understood
25 that fire was opened on military targets during combat. I don't see
Page 32839
1 anything in dispute there, but this shows something else. Our reporting
2 was done in the way to reflect as things really were. It -- we did not
3 try to disguise anything. We did not try to pretend that we did not open
4 fire when we did.
5 Q. This was strictly confidential and it was sent to the Main Staff;
6 right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Four days later, General, sir -- I don't know what we are looking
9 at. I don't know what document we are looking at. I think it's 1D009.
10 Four days later you signed an anti-sniping agreement; right?
11 A. Yes. Yes.
12 Q. I am charged with your alleged control over sniping activity and
13 when you signed that agreement the activities of Serbian sniper shooters
14 stopped.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get this document on the
16 screen. It doesn't seem to have been admitted into evidence, 1D009. The
17 following page. It's -- it's not the document I asked for. It's 1D1009.
18 1D1009. Agreement, yes. Can we see the following page. It says here:
19 "Subject, agreement on elimination of sniping in Sarajevo." Page 3, can
20 we go to page 3.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. General, sir, do you remember - can we scroll up - do you
23 remember whether you signed this agreement two years after your first
24 request that that agreement be signed?
25 A. Yes, this is obviously my handwriting in the Latinic script.
Page 32840
1 Q. Could you please tell us what was sniping fire on the Serbian
2 side conditional upon?
3 A. It's an elementary issue. When their sniping fire stopped, ours
4 stopped as well. There was no need for further sniper fire. Combat
5 could go on without opening sniper fire, without using sniper rifles.
6 They were excluded from combat from there on. They were excluded even
7 from hitting military targets.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the document be admitted if it
9 hasn't been admitted yet and the previous as well.
10 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification, the previous
11 document.
12 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
13 MS. EDGERTON: But this document is, I think, P861, the
14 anti-sniping agreement.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 12336 will be marked for
17 identification as D2828, Your Honours.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P863.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Four days later you issued an order. I would like to call up
21 P863. I don't have a Serbian version. I'm going to read it, therefore.
22 [In English] "Pursuant to the anti-sniping agreement signed at
23 the airport Sarajevo on the 14th of August, 1994, it was given to all
24 troops of Sarajevo-Romanija Corps the following.
25 "Order.
Page 32841
1 "Stop immediately ... activities and activities from other
2 weapons -- sniping activities and activities from other weapons from the
3 front line inside the town of Sarajevo."
4 [Interpretation] Thank you. Now bullet point 5.
5 [In English] "It is the obligation of the commands to prevent
6 individual unauthorised actions and irresponsible actions."
7 [Interpretation] General, sir, you issued this order. Did the
8 sniping activity stop after that, both from the city and from outside of
9 the city?
10 A. Yes, it stopped. In this case, the units of the
11 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps observed this agreement to the letter. That kind
12 of fire was discontinued, obviously did not last long on the opposite
13 side. They did not keep quiet for too long.
14 Q. Did there come a time after that when that agreement was violated
15 on both sides? I'm talking about the agreement that was signed on the
16 14th of August and your order issued on the 18th of August. How long did
17 it all last? How successful was this exercise?
18 A. I'm sure that there is no exact date when that kind of conduct
19 stopped and when it started again. I'm talking about violations of the
20 agreement. So the date is not important. I don't have it in any case.
21 In any case, as far as I can remember the cease-fire may have
22 lasted for about a month. During that time there was no sniping
23 activity. Sniping activities were suspended or limited. The agreement
24 was observed and so on and so forth. And then on our side we resumed
25 after the enemy side started opening sniper fire on us. During that
Page 32842
1 period and during all the other periods in question, I confirmed that our
2 activities against targets outside of those that you mentioned never
3 existed, and when I say "other targets," I mean civilian targets.
4 Q. General, after the agreement fell through, did you or anyone on
5 the VRS side issue an order on trying to avoid sniper fire or did you
6 prohibit opening fire at the city?
7 A. Well, I don't see the agreement as a complete failure. I do know
8 that we did our utmost to honour it and to keep it in place throughout;
9 however, it did not enjoy that status for long. As for our orders,
10 limitations, instructions and caution, they were issued even following
11 the violations of the agreement by the enemy.
12 Q. General, sir, did the Serb side have a military or political
13 interest in continuing sniper activity in Sarajevo and what was the
14 interest of the other side? Actually, who benefitted from it?
15 A. The position of the SRK and the position of the other forces and
16 civilians was not such that we saw any interest in increasing that kind
17 of activity or continuing with it in order to expand the conflict. I'm
18 basically trying to say that it was not in our interest. I said several
19 times that the enemy side did not see any interest in resolving the
20 situation peacefully and we constantly felt that.
21 Q. Thank you. General, I wanted to ask you something about the
22 Geneva Conventions and international humanitarian law and the laws of war
23 and how they were respected. What can you tell us about it in terms of
24 JNA regulation and VRS position as well as the position of the SRK in
25 that regard?
Page 32843
1 A. First of all, the rules of the Geneva Conventions are very clear.
2 There is no need to add or interpret them. Fortunately, they exist as
3 such and no one can depart from that framework in -- absent a very solid
4 reason to do so. The spirit of those rules was present in the mind of
5 every member of the SRK. I repeat, the fighters and people who were
6 under fire on a daily basis actually kept asking us why we kept bothering
7 them by saying that they shouldn't act against civilians. Of course we
8 clearly told them that we were not interested in civilians. We had to
9 keep reminding them irrespective of how responsibly they approached the
10 issue. That was one thing.
11 Another thing, I know that we do not have enough time but I could
12 tell you every activity and move I made together with the rest of my
13 command in order to honour the Geneva Convention rules to the utmost. It
14 was done in different ways. For example, in the commands of battalions,
15 in bold letters there were such rules and it was insisted that the
16 battalion commanders pass that information down through their company
17 commanders and ultimately plain soldiers so that they would not commit
18 such mistakes. That was one thing.
19 Another thing, we were constantly in touch with many people and
20 through that contact they were made aware of the fact that such conduct
21 would be inhumane, it would not be chivalrous and it would be below
22 anyone's dignity to act against the rules of the Geneva Conventions.
23 That's all I have to say about it. Although, as I said, I could put
24 forth a number of indicators and examples on how we worked with the
25 people in situ. I tried every time to tell them what was important for
Page 32844
1 them as participants in the war. They never heard from me or my
2 commanders anything that would indicate that their negative conduct would
3 be permitted.
4 Q. General, given the fact that the corps command and brigade
5 commands for the most part were comprised of professional military
6 personnel, whereas the soldiers had served in the JNA, were your
7 instructions their first encounter with the Geneva Conventions? What was
8 their knowledge of the Geneva Conventions and international laws of war
9 on the part of your commanders?
10 A. The commanders and officers were completely familiar with it.
11 They were aware of the gist and thrust of the rules. One learns that
12 through military education. It was so taught that no one needed any
13 further persuasion. It was simply a rule that was there. The soldiers
14 did receive training on that topic. I'm not asserting that we explained
15 in every detail what would await a person going against that rule,
16 especially in view of the fact that soldiers needn't be burdened with
17 every single rule there was. But there was knowledge which for the most
18 part came from the officers who were well aware of the rules.
19 Q. Thank you. We had occasion to hear the testimony of several of
20 your brigade commanders. What would be your take on the dignity,
21 professionalism, and humaneness of your brigade commanders? Did you have
22 any issues with any of them?
23 A. That's a very good question. I'm happy that someone is
24 interested in how those people conducted themselves. First of all, I
25 personally hold each and every of those commanders in high regard. They
Page 32845
1 have confirmed themselves as people of military and ethical principles,
2 aware of their knowledge and ready to apply their knowledge in order for
3 our side not to be defeated. That's what I have to say about them. They
4 enjoyed my trust and in turn I received theirs. Never, even in jest or
5 when chatting, was there ever any thought or word uttered that we should
6 do something that would be humiliating or detrimental to the level of
7 those people who were in command of the brigades.
8 Q. General, sir, what was the position of your predecessor, that is
9 to say, the first commander of the SRK, General Sipcic and his commanders
10 vis-a-vis respecting the rules of the Geneva Conventions? Did you meet
11 with General Sipcic and did you have an opinion as regards that issue?
12 A. Yes, I think it is well-known and clear that General Sipcic was
13 the corps commander for a very brief period of time. While he was there,
14 I never saw him make a wrong move or a decision in that regard. His tone
15 was not extremely commanding, but his conduct was also not detrimental to
16 our side in any respect.
17 Q. What was the position concerning civilians, especially civilians
18 of other ethnicity in the area of responsibility of your brigade and
19 later on your corps? What kind of measures were taken to protect them?
20 A. Yes. In the area of the SRK, especially in its south-eastern
21 part, there was a number of people of another ethnicity, in this case
22 Muslims. I know that no crimes were committed against them. When you
23 asked me earlier how we conducted our investigations, I'm pleased to know
24 that in the area of the SRK there were no crimes such as beatings,
25 detention, torture, mistreating, killings, et cetera. The same status
Page 32846
1 was accorded to Muslims as the other citizens living in our territory.
2 They were not tortured or approached in a negative way.
3 Q. Are you talking about the organised forces under your control and
4 does this include individuals outside of your control?
5 A. I'm afraid I do not understand. Individuals outside my control?
6 I don't know what it means. I am talking about the people, territory,
7 and population in the area of the SRK.
8 Q. So you are referring to your soldiers?
9 A. Yes. I'm talking about their attitude towards the civilians in
10 our territory. There were no crimes committed against people
11 irrespective of their ethnicity in the area of our forces and our front
12 line.
13 Q. General, did the Muslims and Croats have the same obligation to
14 respond to call-ups like the Serbs? Did you have soldiers and officers
15 of Muslim and Croat ethnicity?
16 A. We did, especially in Grbavica. There was a number of soldiers,
17 Muslims, who were used in combat deployment. They held the line in that
18 area like any other soldier. They were members of the SRK.
19 Q. Did they have the same obligation, both Muslims and Croats in our
20 territory, the same as the Serbs had to respond?
21 A. No, we did not want to force them. There was no way or means to
22 force them to join our ranks. Those who found themselves on our
23 territory could be engaged under work obligation. There were two
24 categories: Military obligation and work obligation. And work
25 obligation was something like the civilian protection, whereby people
Page 32847
1 were used to work in residential areas and help other people. They were
2 engaged in all sorts of tasks in the city.
3 Q. And in the corps as a whole, did you have any soldiers or
4 officers, high-ranking officers, of a different ethnicity?
5 A. Yes, we did. In the corps there were all ethnicities among the
6 officers, all the ethnicities of the former Yugoslavia, that is. There
7 were Croats who were doctors and chiefs of the medical corps -- actually,
8 there was just one man, Colonel Tonci Posa [phoen]. We also had a
9 colonel who was the base commander at Pale. I can't remember his name at
10 the moment, but he was a professional, he was a very good soldier. I
11 will remember his name. We also had Lieutenant-Colonel Milivoje Solar.
12 He was a Croat. Together with his three daughters he spent the entire
13 war at Grbavica. At the same time, he also got a fourth child, a son.
14 He spent the entire war there. He was involved in logistics. There were
15 also soldiers and -- yes, there was also Major Franc Lesnik [phoen] who
16 was a Slovenian. I had a captain who was a Hungarian. Those people were
17 involved in the work of the command or in the work of the units. They
18 performed their duties as officers who knew what they were doing. They
19 were professionals.
20 Q. Just one more question before the break. What was the attitude
21 towards the protection of abandoned property? Did the army have anything
22 to do with protecting the property of those who temporarily left the
23 area, primarily the area of Grbavica?
24 A. Your Honours, this is a question very close to my heart, very
25 well-known to me. I have to let you know that I can't describe
Page 32848
1 everything. However, those were initial activities, initial measures
2 that had to be introduced in order to establish some sort of order. I
3 would like to emphasize that I was a huge advocate of order in a
4 situation when some people did not understand what it meant to live in an
5 area where things were still not clear enough, and this especially
6 applies to Grbavica, to an area where from day one some people had their
7 own agenda which they had carried over from some other times. And those
8 activities were so frequent that I had to engage a military police
9 company in order to reinstate order in the area and protect people.
10 Primarily people who needed protection were Muslims who were there and
11 who feared threats. When they realised that there was protection to be
12 had, that somebody did not allow unknown people to enter their
13 apartments, they were grateful. It was my company commander Djurkovic
14 who did that. I appointed him myself. Before that he was a company
15 commander, an active-duty officer. And when the decision was made that
16 people should be sent to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, he left. I
17 issued him a certificate showing how good he was in my service.
18 Q. What did you know about the position of the Main Staff, of the
19 Supreme Command, the president of the republic, and the government with
20 regard to your activities to the effect of preserving the lives,
21 property, rights, and security of civilians of other ethnicities in your
22 zone of responsibility?
23 A. The position was clear and I was happy that the position was
24 clear because it meant that people who lived there were not exposed to
25 any sort of ill-treatment on the part of the soldiers. They accepted
Page 32849
1 that protection. Second of all, the general principle and requirement
2 was not to do evil unto others. I accepted that. Everybody was moderate
3 in a demanding situation, so there were moderate positions by the
4 Main Staff, by yourself, and all the other factors that constituted
5 political power and governed the entire political situation.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, is this the time for
8 our next break?
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll have a break for 45 minutes and resume at
10 22 past 1.00.
11 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.37 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 1.21 p.m.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. General, sir, what measures were applied in order to curb crime
17 in the zone of responsibility of your brigade and, later on, in the zone
18 of responsibility of your corps? We'll see a document later.
19 A. There were several measures. The basic intention was to prevent
20 their movements, especially if it was suspected that they would be able
21 to engage in their criminal activity there. For example, in the central
22 urban area. The key measure that I can confirm was applied on my part
23 was to involve them in combat, to make them members of a unit and place
24 them under a certain command. From there onwards, they stopped playing a
25 criminal role. In other words, they were mobilised. They became members
Page 32850
1 of combat teams, and they could not freely move around. And that was if
2 they had displayed some sort of negative behaviour.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D7522.
4 1D7522. We have the Serbian version.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. This is an order which was issued by the command of the
7 1st Romanija Brigade on the 15th of July, 1992. Somebody signed on your
8 behalf but your name is typed up. Can you present the document to us and
9 why you issued it. Measure to prevent theft and misappropriation of
10 property, the introduction of a curfew. Could you please briefly tell us
11 what prompted you to issue this document and what this document implied
12 at the time?
13 A. Yes. First of all, I would like to thank you for showing me this
14 document. I completely forgot about that. These are measures that I
15 wanted to introduce and I did introduce them because we had to curb some
16 negative behaviours by certain factors who had not grasped the situation
17 as it prevailed at the time. In any case, these were measures aimed at
18 restoring order and curbing damaging behaviour, theft, burglaries, and a
19 number of other activities that some people may have been prepared to
20 engage in, not realising that we were in a state of war.
21 Q. Thank you. We can see that ambulances were allowed to do their
22 job. Under bullet point 2, where it says:
23 "Measures to prevent theft and misappropriation of property."
24 Could you please tell us whose property was mostly exposed to
25 that type of crime?
Page 32851
1 A. Those who were prone to property theft did not ask too many
2 questions, but they primarily chose to steal from Muslims. The feeling
3 that a period of lawlessness had emerged was conducive to such
4 activities. Both the introduction of a curfew and the second measure --
5 let's understand each other. I didn't even know if I had the right to
6 introduce such measures, but I didn't pay too much attention whether that
7 was my legal obligation or not. I just needed to curb that kind of
8 behaviour and I had to do it at the roots.
9 Q. In that respect, General, sir, can we scroll down a little
10 because on the top of the page we can see that something was scribbled by
11 hand and there is a question mark. We can't see it in e-court, but let
12 me read this to you. Somebody wrote down:
13 "Where's the police?" And there is a question mark after those
14 words.
15 Where were the police at the time? Were there enough state
16 organs, primarily courts and police, that would have allowed you not to
17 introduce those measures?
18 A. Of course there were not enough and the police could not be
19 efficient. Since there was a state of chaos, somebody had to take
20 measures, and I really don't think it is important whether it was the
21 police who did that or military organs, especially in that area that was
22 rather small and order had to be introduced, whereas the police --
23 obviously the police were there but they did not function properly.
24 Q. General, did someone from the Main Staff, the government, or the
25 Presidency hold it against you, did they complain to you because you had
Page 32852
1 introduced these measures?
2 A. To the best of my recollection, no.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have the next page and then
4 I will ask that this part that was not visible on the screen be shown to
5 the participants.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Yes, you can see it now in the English translation, yes, "where's
8 the police."
9 What it says here in the third and fourth line, all the property
10 that has been stolen where the perpetrators are known has to be restored
11 to its owners. Was this done and to what extent?
12 A. Well, of course we managed to do that, but not absolutely, not
13 everything could be detected, not everything could be discovered and
14 restored, but for every citizen who has been robbed or looted, of course,
15 he is happy to have his property restored and we have to make certain
16 this doesn't happen again.
17 Q. Was any distinction made according to ethnic affiliation?
18 A. Well, that was the point, not to draw any distinctions. You have
19 to understand that in that period we still lived in the same way as
20 before, and those who were taking measures wanted to restore things to
21 normal and not have individuals acting wilfully.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have the next page?
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. The Geneva Conventions and the rules and customs of war, and this
Page 32853
1 includes prisoners of war. Can you explain what you wrote under point 4,
2 which says "treatment of prisoners of war," or rather, "procedure with
3 prisoners," and can you tell us what you prescribed when it comes to
4 prisoners?
5 A. In this document and in the practice I wanted to be implemented,
6 we wanted it to be regulated from the outset how prisoners should be
7 treated. I don't think there's anything more just than respecting a
8 person who has been taken prisoner. That's what I asked from those
9 people. The situation was imposed and they couldn't consider someone who
10 is a prisoner and who is helpless to be someone they could do what they
11 liked with. This -- they had to understand that this would not be
12 permitted because once you allow this kind of situation to escalate,
13 prisoners will undergo great suffering. Not just here in this situation
14 but throughout the war, at Ilidza, in the area there, company commander,
15 a Muslim, was taken prisoner and he was beside himself because he thought
16 this was the end. He thought he was going to lose his life. And I spoke
17 to him and on the same day he was exchanged for someone else. So the
18 treatment of prisoners had to be respectful and their lives had to be
19 ensured.
20 Q. Let's have the next time. You appointed Captain Simo Sipcic to
21 co-ordinate the work between the civil organs and the army and between
22 the military police and the civil police; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What was the reason you did this?
25 A. The main reason was that I needed someone who was more familiar
Page 32854
1 with the area than I was, and with the conditions there. In this case,
2 Simo Sipcic was a person who was local. I don't know whether he was born
3 there, but that's where he lived and worked, so he was the best person to
4 act as co-ordinator and as a contact point. He let me know that he was
5 willing to do this and I appointed him. I'm not saying I couldn't have
6 chosen a better person.
7 Q. Thank you. A hypothetical question, General: Would it have been
8 easier for you if we had declared the state of war to introduce order or
9 would the situation have been the same?
10 A. Well, I didn't need a state of war to be declared. What was
11 necessary was for people to understand how they should conduct themselves
12 because regardless of whether there was or was not a state of war, people
13 went through the same thing. In the beginning it was impossible to
14 appoint someone to do something and put him in a desired situation, but
15 later on you could achieve that with everybody once they understood that
16 without organised work and without a command there could be no successful
17 defence, regardless of whether a state of war was declared or not.
18 Q. General, this was an order to your subordinates. It was strictly
19 confidential, of the 15th of July.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May it be admitted into evidence,
21 please?
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2829, Your Honours.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. May we now have 1D7521,
25 please.
Page 32855
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. General, this is a notice from you to the population, so it's a
3 shorter version of what was in your order. Can you tell us what you
4 informed the population about and why?
5 A. Something that is an integral part of the measures needed by the
6 military organisation. There can be no defence, there can be no
7 possibility of putting things right if the population starts leaving and
8 so on. If there are civilian family members in the defence area, then
9 those who are defending the area will defend it better if they know their
10 family's there than if they know their family has left. So I wanted to
11 restrict the movement of people in order to prevent the area from being
12 depopulated. That was what I wanted to do, and I think that this was
13 something that was part of the defence of the area.
14 Q. This second paragraph says that unauthorised persons are
15 prohibited from entering abandoned and empty flats. This could be done
16 only by the military police. And in the end, people are warned that
17 there will be severe punitive measures.
18 A. Yes, that's correct. In the area of Grbavica there was something
19 called Digitron. That's where certain groups gathered until I managed to
20 put them under control. They started asking me on whose side I was.
21 They thought that we were communists who wanted to restore the old
22 brotherhood and unity system. But later on, those same people came to
23 understand that all this was in their interest and they all managed to
24 fit in with the way that they were supposed to behave and they acted
25 normally.
Page 32856
1 Q. Are you refer to their behaviour towards Muslims and Croats in
2 Grbavica?
3 A. No, I'm -- what I'm saying is that some people, when it comes to
4 Muslims, thinking that I was only protecting Muslims and that I was
5 working against the interest of those who were self-willed.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted into evidence,
8 please?
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2830, Your Honours.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we look at 1D7526.
12 JUDGE KWON: One question for you, General. How was this notice
13 notified to the people?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Through certain local communes,
15 representatives of the population. Through individuals in certain areas,
16 in certain streets or neighbourhoods or parts of the town. So those were
17 their civil representatives who were well-respected in their communities
18 and it was up to them to communicate this to their neighbours.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. General, in those local communes, were there any notice boards
22 which could be used to put up notices?
23 A. Yes, of course there were. I can't recall whether any of these
24 notices were put up on the notice board, but I wanted it to be
25 communicated to people in a closer way.
Page 32857
1 Q. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D7526.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. This is a combat report of the 10th of November, when you were
5 already commander. It's a regular combat report in which you informed
6 the Main Staff, the forward command post, and the two neighbouring corps
7 of what the enemy is doing. So let's look at the bottom of the page
8 where it says fire was opened on targets in depth and on infantry
9 positions in the city. Can you explain what this means?
10 A. Well, this is a consolidated, compiled report which has the
11 purpose of informing the Main Staff of combat activities on the entire
12 area. When it comes to the area that is outside the city, it was fired
13 on in depth, whereas in the city only on positions which were in our
14 immediate vicinity or in shelters, trenches, dug-outs, or fortifications
15 which were directly in front of us without the depth.
16 Q. In that first instance, what did the enemy have in depth which
17 was worth firing on?
18 A. I think it's quite clear, they can have artillery there. They
19 can have reserve there, approaching units. They can have certain waiting
20 areas for the bringing in of fresh forces, waiting for new tasks. So it
21 depends on what you discover there, but basically it boils down to
22 artillery weapons.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have the next page.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 32858
1 Q. Can you please tell us in item 5, morale and security situation,
2 the first three lines, can you read the sentence and tell us what this is
3 about? "To all units ..."
4 A. Yes, yes, I see. I see.
5 There's no need for me to read what it says here. We sent it to
6 all the units, or rather, all the units were given a large number of
7 copies of Law on the Application of the Law on Military Courts and the
8 Law on Military Prosecutors' Offices During a State of War. I can see
9 that now, that we were supposed to distribute this once a state of war
10 was declared.
11 Q. General, can you tell Their Honours how the military justice
12 system was organised in the area of the corps, what services were there
13 and what they were doing.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And may this document be admitted
15 into evidence?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The military justice system
17 continued operating, it continued to exist, to the best of my
18 understanding, in a similar way as in peace time. There were military
19 courts, there was a military prosecutor, and there were organs engaged in
20 doing this work. In -- as part of the Main Staff of the Army of
21 Republika Srpska, there was a legal service which had its chief and, I
22 repeat, there were military courts and a military prosecutor's office
23 doing everything that was done in other situations as well.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this document be admitted into
25 evidence?
Page 32859
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2831, Your Honours.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 1D7538.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. And while we are waiting, General, how were military courts and
6 prosecutors' offices allocated with respect to the military territorial
7 situation?
8 A. When it comes to the area of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the
9 military court and military prosecutor's office were located in Ilidza.
10 That's where they were and that's where that part of the judiciary was
11 located. Further, there was a military court for the Republika Srpska,
12 to the best of my knowledge, in Zvornik. It's quite certain that in
13 other areas there were other military courts, but I can't confirm this
14 although I know they must have been there.
15 Q. Thank you. So did I understand correctly that the area of
16 responsibility of a corps had its own military court and military
17 prosecutor's office?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you interfere in the work of the military courts and military
20 prosecutor? How did they conduct their jobs, if you know? Who could
21 arrest a person and so on?
22 A. Well, of course I knew, although I didn't interfere. With the
23 help of my own legal service and the security organ, I submitted criminal
24 reports against persons who had done something unlawful. And to the best
25 of my knowledge, there were about 70 criminal reports which I signed and
Page 32860
1 submitted for further procedure. If there is an understanding that there
2 was nothing further I could do, I could not prosecute or interfere, I
3 maintain that I did my job to the best of my ability. I did not
4 interfere with the work of the military courts. I did get First-Class
5 Captain Jamina [phoen], who was a military prosecutor, to give
6 instructions to officers in Grbavica and Ilidza to contact the soldiers
7 to tell them what they could expect if they acted in an unlawful manner.
8 He did this very conscientiously. I congratulate him on this. I'm not
9 saying this was the only influence on the fighters. It was one of many
10 influences for them not to commit crimes.
11 Q. Thank you. Are you discussing the 70 criminal reports during
12 your command, and in addition to that, were there any reports concerning
13 misdemeanour and, if so, what were the figures in that area?
14 A. Yes, I was discussing the criminal reports during the period of
15 my command. I can't tell you anything about misdemeanours because they
16 were of lesser importance at the time to me. I can't say what the figure
17 was. I was only discussing the number of criminal reports.
18 Q. Thank you. Look at item 5, please. There is some mention of
19 four criminal reports against soldiers for the crime of theft within the
20 AOR of the brigade. That was while you were still with the
21 1st Romanija Brigade; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Does it mean there was one soldier who committed four crimes of
24 theft or four soldiers in a single theft?
25 A. No, no, no, it wasn't a single soldier. There were four criminal
Page 32861
1 reports against soldiers, plural, who had committed the crime of theft in
2 the area of responsibility of the brigade. The reports will be passed on
3 to the office of the military prosecutor for further action.
4 Q. That was already on the 4th of July, 1992; correct?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can scroll up so that
6 the General can see the date.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we admit this?
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2832, Your Honours.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D7539?
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. While waiting for it, please tell us who is Lieutenant-Colonel
16 Ljuban Kosovac?
17 A. Colonel Kosovac was assistant commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija
18 Corps for morale and legal affairs.
19 Q. The date is October 1992. Was Colonel Kosovac in the unit during
20 your period there when you were the chief?
21 A. While I was the Chief of Staff he was the assistant commander for
22 morale and legal affairs. I can't recall when he left exactly. I don't
23 know if he was still there when I assumed my duties. I do know, though,
24 that in the corps Colonel Dragicevic was in that position. He had taken
25 over and it -- I seem to have a recollection that Kosovac by that time
Page 32862
1 retired.
2 Q. Thank you. What is Colonel Kosovac sending here? Did you in the
3 brigade receive these guide-lines for determining the criteria for
4 prosecution? Have a look at the first paragraph. Just tell us briefly
5 what it's about.
6 A. Even without reading I know what he could have asked for. In
7 this instance, as the competent organ, he provided guide-lines on how to
8 behave and what measures to take to normalise the situation in the
9 prevention of crime for the sake of unified policy relating to
10 prosecution.
11 Q. So in addition to the crimes against the armed forces or avoiding
12 draft calls, we also have property crime, profiteering, war crimes,
13 et cetera; correct?
14 A. Yes. The whole point was to have the forces act in the sense
15 that war crimes should be prevented.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2833, Your Honours.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have a look at 1D07035.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. General, have a look, please. The date is the 15th of December,
23 1992. You are still in command of the 1st Romanija Brigade.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Item 2, maximum observation and so on. Does this tally with what
Page 32863
1 you have told us previously that observation was an ongoing activity?
2 A. That type of activity had to be in place at all times; however,
3 here it is stated that it forms the basis of our guarantee of proper
4 conduct. The system of observation, pin-pointing targets, following the
5 movement of the enemy and its columns, all that was a precondition to
6 protecting ourselves and in order to take action against such activity
7 which threatens our side.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the next page and for
10 the time being I would ask that it not be broadcast. Item 4 in the
11 English, so that's the next page as well. I'm not certain whether it
12 should be broadcast or not, but it is better to be cautious.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. In item 4 you report that on the 13th of December, at around
15 2200 hours, there was an incident resulting in a death, civilian
16 Ilija Pavlovic was killed and it seemed that another civilian reported it
17 who was Muslim. There are soldiers referred to, including Pavlovic who
18 went to the apartment of a Muslim woman while drunk and that there was a
19 risk that they would rape her. Mladen Janic and Glogovac and Buha and
20 Ujic went to the flat. They found there the above-mentioned soldiers who
21 were completely drunk and they escorted them to the company command.
22 Can you discuss the following paragraph without referring to the
23 names, please. It seems there was some shooting, too.
24 A. Yes. This reminds me of the last name of the person who took
25 measures to prevent this. It was Mr. Glogovac, I believe, or someone.
Page 32864
1 He knew what needed to be done, what was permitted, what was not. He
2 prevented this situation, and thanks to him, it did not escalate to the
3 point of a crime being committed.
4 Q. This Ibro person, I won't mention his last name, he was Muslim,
5 and he reported it and his report was acted upon. That's what the
6 document says?
7 A. Yes. It means that we trusted that there was something he wanted
8 to report and followed up on his information. It was acted on
9 professionally.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted?
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
14 JUDGE KWON: I don't think we have to put it under seal.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2834, Your Honours.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. General, did you have any paramilitary units in the corps or in
18 its area, especially as of the moment you became the chief and commander
19 later on?
20 A. No, there weren't any. Let me add this: I have to acknowledge
21 General Galic's efforts. He acted emphatically in cutting off and
22 removing all such elements. In that way he made my job easier, since I
23 no longer had to deal with them anymore. Whatever there was, was under
24 the command of the 1st and 3rd Sarajevo Brigades. There were no other
25 kind of forces. When I say "the 1st and 3rd Sarajevo Brigades," I wanted
Page 32865
1 to say that there were volunteers in their ranks.
2 Q. Did the volunteers enjoy the same status, the same rights and
3 obligations as the regular soldiers?
4 A. Yes, absolutely so. Even more importantly, they were equal in
5 the sense that they died equally. A Russian was killed, I even have the
6 exact date of his death and what happened to him. There were situations
7 where volunteers lost their limbs when they stepped on mines. I think it
8 was even the same man. So they lived under the same conditions and
9 engaged in the same activities as the other fighters.
10 Q. General, was there uniformity in terms of dress as it had existed
11 in the JNA and appearance? For example, were there people wearing
12 beards? Were there soldiers or officers of yours who behaved, let's say,
13 in an unconventional way, standing out in any way?
14 A. I'd like to say very much so that it was not our priority, it was
15 not a key matter to be followed. But it is true that in terms of dress
16 and appearance they were all equal. However, some were not asked to
17 shave their faces. That remained as the only characteristic which made
18 them stand out.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 15703.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Did the same apply to their hair and personal image?
23 The date is the 27th of August, 1993. There you report on the
24 measures undertaken regarding the Vaska case. What was it all about?
25 A. Well, Vaska, do you want me to read it all because we may lose
Page 32866
1 time? Vaska stood out in terms of his appearance, he looked differently.
2 He knew well, because I had told him that it was not appropriate and that
3 he looked untidy. It didn't contribute one bit to his image. After
4 several attempts to make him understand and after that failed, we took
5 measures because he failed to realise that.
6 Q. Thank you. In item 1 you discuss his conduct towards UNPROFOR,
7 and the document then states that Vaska was to follow what you had
8 prescribed.
9 A. Yes, he had that streak in his behaviour and he had difficulty in
10 understanding that it had nothing to do with military structures and
11 civilised behaviour. The issue of respect of UNPROFOR and their mission,
12 it was important to us, not only that it is respected by most of them but
13 all of them.
14 Q. Let us look at item 3. It seems that the offences he had
15 committed before were not forgotten. Please read it out.
16 A. "The Corps Command decided, for the time being, to file criminal
17 charges against Vaska, make him responsible for the mistakes he had made
18 previously -- hold him responsible ."
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted, please?
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2835, Your Honours.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D7540.
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you will conclude your
24 examination-in-chief today?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll do my utmost,
Page 32867
1 Your Excellencies. Perhaps I will have a couple of minutes left for
2 tomorrow -- actually, I could do it on the day of the cross, although I
3 hope to finish today.
4 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber needs to rise at quarter to 3.00 sharp,
5 and I would like you to leave five minutes at the end.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. If I have a few
7 documents left, would it be acceptable if I did it before the
8 cross-examination starts on the day when it starts? This would avoid us
9 having to re-call the General tomorrow. Or perhaps I can do it over one
10 session tomorrow morning, if that helps.
11 JUDGE KWON: And there's no change as to the order of witnesses
12 in terms of the agreement between the parties, Ms. Edgerton?
13 MS. EDGERTON: My understanding of the agreement is that the
14 cross-examination of the General will be put forward to another date, but
15 we haven't in the interim, as this testimony has gone on, finalised when
16 that date might be precisely. Recalling Your Honour's indication about
17 when you would prefer the cross-examination begin.
18 JUDGE KWON: If you are ready, I would like to hear it
19 immediately following the examination-in-chief, but it doesn't seem to be
20 the case. I would like you to start immediately following the conclusion
21 of three witnesses' evidence.
22 MR. TIEGER: If I can address that briefly, Mr. President, just
23 that -- because I think I had discussions with Mr. Robinson about this.
24 I know I did with someone and I thought it was with him. We were aware
25 of the Trial Chamber's preference to -- aware both of the estimation that
Page 32868
1 the witnesses who were expected to commence tomorrow -- and now it's
2 coming back to me, I think I had this discussion after being notified
3 yesterday that the Defence expected to take the entirety of the day
4 today. We then expected to move on to the other witnesses. That order,
5 of course, remained the same in terms of their appearance. And I
6 simply -- and then we also acknowledged the Trial Chamber's preference to
7 begin the cross-examination thereafter, and I simply put down a marker at
8 that time that we were hoping to do just that and thought we could, but
9 that if the examinations of the three witnesses who were expected to
10 testify tomorrow did not last the entirety of the day, we nevertheless
11 thought that the cross-examination of Mr. Milosevic should not begin
12 until the earliest on Thursday. So that was the understanding. I didn't
13 hear -- so that's kind of the minimum discussion that took place.
14 JUDGE KWON: That point has been taken.
15 Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Please cast a glance. This was issued in December 1993. We will
19 see at the end that Ljuban Kosovac, your assistant, i.e., Galic's
20 assistant at the time, reported about the work of the military
21 prosecutor's office and the military court, both tied to his corps. It
22 is stated here that during that period of time before you became
23 commander, 79 criminal reports were filed against 90 individuals. Is
24 that correct?
25 A. Yes, yes. That's what I read. This is the information that was
Page 32869
1 provided in the form of an analysis.
2 Q. Can you please tell us what was the breakdown of crimes? You
3 will find it in paragraph 2.
4 A. Crimes against property, violent crimes and other crimes.
5 Violation of guard duty, for example, that would be the first.
6 Assaulting military personnel, theft, murder, illicit trade, endangering
7 public traffic, rape, and so on and so forth.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We don't have to broadcast this.
10 We don't have to pronounce the names of the perpetrators, but I would
11 like to go to the following page.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. General, sir, look at bullet point 9, paragraph 2. Could you
14 please summarise it or maybe even read the whole of it?
15 A. Bullet point 9?
16 Q. Yes, second paragraph below the name.
17 A. "In order to take preventive action, the Military Prosecutor at
18 the SRK Command visited some units of the Corps, and on that occasion, he
19 informed the commands and relevant organs about the problems encountered
20 in the work of the Military Prosecutor's Office ..."
21 Basically, this is the gist of the problem for which I hired a
22 military prosecutor as a person who played the role that he knew how to
23 play and to influence other people's behaviour.
24 Q. He mentions problems. He says that there are shortcomings in
25 reports, there are difficulties in obtaining information, hindered work
Page 32870
1 of law enforcement organs, poor communication, shortage of staff,
2 difficult working conditions, and so on and so forth. Can you confirm
3 that?
4 A. Yes, I can.
5 Q. General, sir, were you aware of any case of either successful or
6 unsuccessful cover-up of a crime by military prosecutors' offices or
7 officers in your corps?
8 A. I don't understand your question. What do you mean when you say
9 "cover up"? How should I be able to cover things up?
10 Q. Not you. Was there anybody in your corps, any judicial organs in
11 your corps that tried to cover up a crime?
12 A. No, I'm not aware of any such instances. I'm not aware of
13 anybody's intentions of that kind or even successful attempts to do any
14 such thing.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
17 JUDGE KWON: Can we see the first page?
18 While the content of this document referred to criminal reports
19 by Ilidza Brigade, Ilijas Brigade, 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade, why was
20 it sent to -- only to 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade? Or was it sent to
21 all brigades? But I don't see that notation from the document.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer? The 2nd Romanija
23 Motorised Brigade in the meantime had already left the contingent of the
24 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. This is a document that was sent only to them.
25 It is more than certain that there are other documents which were sent to
Page 32871
1 all the commands.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
3 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, we'll receive it.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D2836, Your Honours.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. General, sir, now I would like to draw your attention to the
8 elements of command and control in the zone of responsibility of your
9 brigade and then of your corps but in very general terms. Could you
10 please tell us something about the ways of communication between units
11 and their commands, especially the beginning of 1992? What was the
12 status of communications, relays, telephones, and what was the
13 accessibility of areas, places, by road?
14 A. I managed to understand your question. My view of the system of
15 command was this: The system of command can only function if they are
16 supported by a good communications system. This is not the only
17 condition for the good functioning of the system of command and control,
18 but it is one of very important factors. The system of communications
19 and its capacities are very important.
20 Obviously, at first nothing worked properly. The biggest problem
21 was the fact that the technical equipment that we had at our disposal was
22 very obsolete. Those things, the equipment, radios, radio relay
23 equipment, could be intercepted by anybody and that was a big problem for
24 the system of command which needs to be established.
25 There is another principle which is the principle of physical
Page 32872
1 conduct, immediate contact, and commanding people. Roads were also
2 important but it also played an obstacle in communication. The command
3 role implies that everybody could receive orders, but this was impossible
4 because of the distances, weak communications, and many other obstacles
5 to that communication.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D7527.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. While we are waiting, do you remember Major Pera Jesic?
9 A. Yes, I do. I know the major.
10 Q. This is an intercept of your telephone conversation which you had
11 on the 24th of May, four days after the Army of Republika Srpska was
12 established. This was recorded by the Muslim side.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we take a look at pages 4 and 2
14 in Serbian and English respectively. This is not a good page in
15 English -- no, it is, it is. Okay.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Look at the Serbian page and see where it says:
18 "Check if you have any communication with them ..."
19 That's what you are asking?
20 A. Of course, I can see that and I'm asking him to tell me whether
21 there is communication, whether they are in contact with them or not.
22 Q. At the bottom he says:
23 "We didn't get further away from Sokolac."
24 A. Actually, he's talking about the interaction in communications,
25 about the non-existence of communications, so he cannot get in touch with
Page 32873
1 somebody.
2 Q. He says -- you ask:
3 "So what is the situation over there in Rogatica? You don't
4 know."
5 So you didn't know what the situation was in Rogatica?
6 A. No, I didn't know. And this is really good. Now it takes me
7 back. This is a journey down memory lane. A company remained there,
8 yes, this was a period that completely escaped me. When the brigade
9 arrived, one company remained in the Mesici sector, which is in Rogatica.
10 I wanted to know what was going on with that company because I could not
11 reach them. I was not in contact with that company that I later on
12 transferred and deployed in Sarajevo.
13 Q. Where was the 216th, or rather, the 1st Romanija Brigade? That
14 was on the 24th of May, 1992.
15 A. We already said that it was in the territory of Sarajevo, i.e.,
16 it was in Vrace, Grbavica, one part of Tilava, in that area basically.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2837, Your Honours.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. We're still talking about command and control, General, sir.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D7528.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Can you tell us something about the reporting system? How did
25 you report about activities and combat tasks? Who was it who compiled
Page 32874
1 those reports? Were their authors professional officers and can you tell
2 us something about all that and tie it to this document?
3 A. I don't want to read the document. I know what problems we
4 encountered in our work. During that period of time and a bit later, the
5 organs that collected information, who provided answers, and who were in
6 command of their units, who were supposed to comply with rules and
7 regulations that came from higher instances were not functioning
8 properly, which is not surprising because nobody could do things properly
9 from scratch. Nobody could be expected to be the best possible officer
10 from day one. The system of command is very complex which is always
11 repaired, improved, shortcomings are eliminated, so as to make sure that
12 that system may function as well as possible.
13 Q. What are the most important conditions that need to be put in
14 place in order to have a good system of command, including technical
15 equipment and personnel?
16 A. Both are important. The most important thing is willingness to
17 do things and seriousness in approach. People who were not trained, who
18 did not have enough knowledge, can make up for the shortcomings if they
19 were willing to learn. That was the prevailing intention for people to
20 overcome their shortcomings through work and through learning from
21 others.
22 Q. Can we look at the last page to see that it was delivered to the
23 2nd Sarajevo Brigade, the 1st Romanija Brigade, and that it was signed by
24 Colonel Galic?
25 A. Yes, yes.
Page 32875
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
3 MS. EDGERTON: The General specifically said he didn't want to
4 read the document, so I don't know if he's given a basis for its
5 admission. All that being said, though, I have no issue about the
6 authenticity of the document, of course.
7 JUDGE KWON: I took that statement to mean that he agreed with
8 the document. Given your position, we'll admit it.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2838, Your Honours.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. General, sir, while the document is still on the screen, this was
13 issued on the 7th of September, 1992. Let's look at the situation as it
14 was two months later. 1D7529.
15 Take a look at the document, please, and then tell us what the
16 document refers to. Are there still shortcomings in the system of
17 reporting?
18 A. This was sent by the corps command. The corps command sought
19 ways to introduce order and rules into the system of reporting. The
20 corps command needed to know exactly what was happening in particular
21 areas. Shortcomings were again observed in the system of reporting.
22 There were elements that the corps command needed to have. That's why
23 they are requesting all the units to work on eliminating those
24 shortcomings, and the main principle was to be accurate in the system of
25 reporting.
Page 32876
1 Q. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2839, Your Honours.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have a look at 1D7532, to
6 see what the situation was like eight months later.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Do you remember this document? It was signed by you. It is a
9 request to all brigades and the Vogosca Tactical Group. You say pursuant
10 to the order of the Main Staff of the 15th of July, 1993, on the same day
11 you request accurate data on troop deployment, specifying the data on the
12 location of your units, et cetera. The last paragraph:
13 "The data needs to be accurate and precise, showing the location
14 of units where your forces are holding positions."
15 What prompted you to draft this order to all of the units?
16 A. First of all, it is clear that it was requested by the
17 Main Staff. They wanted to have more precise information. Secondly,
18 there must have been inaccuracies in sketching deployments on the map.
19 Therefore, everyone had to verify the position of their forces so as to
20 reflect those positions accurately on the map. Even the most minute
21 details had to be taken into account when displaying it on the map.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted?
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2840, Your Honours.
Page 32877
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have a look at P1763.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. It's a whole year later, that is to say, July 1994. Why was it
4 necessary to reissue this type of order? We saw the one in
5 September 1992. That's when it was issued for the first time.
6 A. I don't know if you understood me properly at the beginning when
7 I started discussing the system of control and command. The system of
8 command and control is an activity which needs to be improved constantly
9 and worked on. Objectively speaking, there may be inadequacies even when
10 there is very strong insistence on abiding by it.
11 In this case, I did not want to have any kind of lack of clarity
12 or something that may result in insufficient information on the
13 situation. It was very important that the system was properly
14 functioning. There were constant needs to caution, warn, and improve the
15 functioning of the system. There were weaknesses and problems that
16 occurred from time to time.
17 Q. What was the importance of such reports for the commander?
18 A. He cannot make appropriate decisions if he lacks clear indicators
19 and if he has inaccurate information.
20 Q. Thank you. It says that lately all documents are being drafted
21 by commands in a stereotypical way on behalf of the commander.
22 Dead-lines were not being met. Work was not being done properly. And we
23 have received orders asking for specific data that need to be honoured.
24 A. That is all correct.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the last page to see
Page 32878
1 if you signed it and this has already been admitted.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my signature.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Immediately following this document you took over command;
5 correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D7537 to see what
9 things were like in early April 1995.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. At the time you were the corps commander; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D7537.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Could we just go back to that first -- the
15 document we've just been dealing with, D2840. I think it dates from 1993
16 rather than 1994.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that was my understanding.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. General, this is April 1995. It says:
21 "Despite the warning that you had received earlier you still
22 failed to fulfil your regular planned obligations regarding monthly
23 reports ..." and so on and so forth.
24 So this is another warning. General, until the very end of the
25 war, was there such thing as full control and -- of the reporting system
Page 32879
1 within the system of command and control? Were there always problems or
2 were you successful in implementing it in full by the end of the war?
3 A. Well, we see this is already 1995, so my answer would be no. I
4 know that the system that was in place could ensure that we worked
5 normally, and any kind of intervention of this nature was simply an
6 expression of the need to have it improved or to do away with
7 shortcomings. Since I know how the entire situation ended, I believe
8 that the system towards the end functioned meticulously.
9 Q. Thank you. General, were you satisfied with the number of
10 professional officers in lower commanding positions and did that have any
11 impact on problems discussed in documents like this one?
12 A. It's very relative who you are satisfied with or not. What my
13 aim was to have the people do their best given their ability and given
14 the circumstances. Anything beyond that was even better and assistance
15 was provided. I tried to respect everyone because not every person had
16 the same ability and knowledge. Every one of them was precious for the
17 functioning of the system even with their weaknesses, their flaws, if
18 there were any.
19 Q. As per establishment, how many professional officers were you
20 supposed to have at junior levels and how many did you have, in fact?
21 A. Well, we simply put that aside. We no longer wanted to follow
22 the establishment. We fought for all personnel that had been highly
23 trained, especially those who had attended the command staff academy. To
24 a certain extent we were successful but not too much because the corps
25 command was short of officers who had a different range of abilities.
Page 32880
1 The brigade commanders were the people who knew their job and it
2 was a comfort to me. Veljko Stojanovic, who was a moderate commander,
3 and he managed to defend an area that not many people would be able to.
4 The same goes for Dragan Josipovic who resembled a chess player when
5 assessing the enemy and awaiting the enemy's mistake to act. It was all
6 up to scratch. The same goes for Vlado Lizdek. The staff I had -- well,
7 I'm grateful to them.
8 Q. Thank you, General.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted? And I'd like
10 to conclude for the day.
11 JUDGE KWON: Conclude for the day. You need how much to conclude
12 your direct examination? We'll admit this.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D2841, Your Honours.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A session, Your Excellency. I have
15 three areas to cover, half of this one and another two.
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, there's -- there should be a limit.
17 The Chamber will give you half an hour tomorrow to conclude your direct
18 examination. I think that's more than reasonable.
19 Mr. Robinson, my understanding was that Mr. Krstic's evidence was
20 fixed on the 4th of February. Was there any change?
21 MR. ROBINSON: There hasn't been any official change yet,
22 Mr. President, but I was going to ask you in light of the delay of this
23 testimony to postpone that to later in the week.
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, any observation?
25 MR. TIEGER: Well, I need to go over the projected schedule,
Page 32881
1 including the projected cross-examination, which I imagine is a factor
2 that Mr. Robinson is considering. But I take his point -- I take it his
3 point is a very practical one. If there's no other reason he wishes to
4 adjust the schedule other than the time he imagines it will take us to
5 reach that witness.
6 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
7 MR. TIEGER: So apparently we have to just determine where we are
8 given the projections.
9 JUDGE KWON: So who is going to inform him and how?
10 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I think the best thing to do
11 would be to wait until tomorrow and see how things progress, but at some
12 point, perhaps the Trial Chamber can make an order or else we can inform
13 General Krstic and his counsel of the schedule. I know that the order
14 said that the subpoena was for the 4th of February or a time thereafter.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 I'm not sure whether I can do it in two minutes.
17 The Chamber will now issue its decision on the accused's 76th
18 motion for finding of disclosure violation filed on the 14th of January,
19 2013, having considered the Prosecution response filed on
20 28th of January. The motion concerns an UNPROFOR report which was
21 disclosed to the accused in December 2012. The accused asserts that this
22 report was in the Prosecution's possession for a number of years and that
23 its late disclosure amounts to a violation of Rule 68 of the Rules of
24 Procedure and Evidence, and the obligation to disclose exculpatory
25 material contained therein. As a remedy for the violation the accused
Page 32882
1 seeks, one, an express finding that the Prosecution violated Rule 68;
2 two, that witness Thorbjorn Overgard be re-called to be questioned on the
3 report; and three, that the report be admitted from the bar table.
4 The Chamber finds that the Prosecution violated Rule 68 by its
5 failure to disclose the report which it finds to be potentially
6 exculpatory. The Chamber reminds the Prosecution that such errors should
7 have been identified and rectified well before the date of disclosure of
8 the document which has been in its possession for a number of years.
9 However, having reviewed the content of the document in light of
10 other similar documents, such as Exhibit P1201, P1782, and P5943, which
11 were available to the accused, and the line of questioning already
12 pursued on the issue this report relates to, the Chamber finds that the
13 accused was not prejudiced by the late disclosure. In the absence of
14 prejudice, there is no basis to grant the accused's request that
15 Witness Thorbjorn Over gard be re-called.
16 Having said that, the Chamber is satisfied that the accused has
17 adequately contextualised and explained how the report fits into his
18 case. The Chamber is also satisfied as to its relevance and probative
19 value and notes that it bears sufficient indicia of authenticity for
20 admission from the bar table. The Chamber, therefore, admits the report
21 into evidence from the bar table and instructs the Registry to assign it
22 an exhibit number once it has been uploaded on e-court.
23 However, on my part, I refer to my partially dissenting opinion
24 in the Chamber's decision on the accused's 37th to 42nd disclosure
25 violation motions of 29th of March, 2011, and decline to make a finding
Page 32883
1 of violation in the absence of prejudice to the accused.
2 Shall we give the number?
3 MS. EDGERTON: Um, if I may, that document was already admitted
4 today during the course of General Milosevic's examination. Mr. Reid is
5 just trying to find the number for me.
6 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you.
7 The hearing is adjourned.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.47 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 30th day of
10 January, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.
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