130306IT

Page 34879

1 Wednesday, 6 March 2013

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness takes the stand]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Good morning, Doctor.

7 THE WITNESS: [Microphone not activated]

8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Gustafson, please proceed.

9 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honours.

10 WITNESS: MILIVOJE KICANOVIC [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

13 Q. And good morning, Dr. Kicanovic. If we can start by going to

14 your statement, which is D3089, and I believe you have it in front of

15 you. If you could look at paragraph 8 of your statement. And,

16 Dr. Kicanovic, that paragraph, does the wording of this paragraph reflect

17 your own words that you said to the Defence investigator, or was the

18 wording of that paragraph suggested to you by the Defence?

19 A. [Microphone not activated]

20 MS. GUSTAFSON: I believe the witness's microphone needs to be

21 turned on.

22 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Your microphone hasn't been

23 activated. Yes, now, it is. Could you repeat your answer kindly,

24 Doctor.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. No one suggested it to me.

Page 34880

1 That's what things were like at the time.

2 MS. GUSTAFSON:

3 Q. By any chance was Mr. Cvijetin Simic, the former president of

4 Bijeljina Municipal Assembly, present when you gave your statement to the

5 Defence?

6 A. No, he wasn't present. I was alone when I provided a statement.

7 Q. Okay. Then if that's the case and if paragraph 8 reflects your

8 own words, do you have any explanation for the fact that the wording in

9 paragraph 8 of your statement appears verbatim in Mr. Cvijetin Simic's

10 Defence witness statement? And that's 1D07803.

11 A. I suppose it figures in his statement as well, because at the

12 time we lived and worked in the same town, so in all likelihood, what he

13 has to say is what I wanted to say too.

14 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could have 65 ter 24708 on the screen,

15 please.

16 Q. And in fact, Dr. Kicanovic, we've done a comparison, and the

17 language in paragraphs 5, 6, 8, and 9 of your statement appear almost

18 verbatim in those same paragraphs of Mr. Simic's statement and that

19 comparison is now on the screen before you. So paragraph 5 is virtually

20 verbatim the same. There's a minor grammatical difference. Paragraph 6

21 is verbatim, identical to Mr. Simic's statement. As we discussed, the

22 language in your paragraph 8 appears verbatim in his statement as well.

23 There are some differences in capitalisation. And paragraph 9 of your

24 statement again appears virtually verbatim in Mr. Simic's statement.

25 Would you agree with me that if in fact these paragraphs reflect

Page 34881

1 your words that you gave to the Defence investigator and if the same

2 applies to Mr. Simic, that would be a rather extraordinary coincidence?

3 A. In all likelihood you are right. They appear almost verbatim, it

4 seems, but Mr. Cvijetin Simic and I were frequently in contact. We

5 worked together, and on top of it all, I was their family doctor, his

6 family doctor. Perhaps things match. Perhaps we think along the same

7 lines, but that's what things were like. Before being contacted by

8 Defence counsel, I did not discuss these matters with Mr. Cvijetin Simic.

9 Q. How about after you were contacted by Defence counsel, did you

10 discuss these matters with Mr. Simic?

11 A. Once, I believe, in passing. It was not an official

12 conversation. I just mentioned that I had been contacted, and I was

13 surprised to have been picked as a witness, a Defence witness.

14 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'd like to tender this document, please.

15 JUDGE KWON: Do we need translation?

16 MS. GUSTAFSON: I don't believe so, Your Honours. The two

17 statements have been translated. This is just a -- more or less a visual

18 depiction of the similarities and differences.

19 JUDGE KWON: To understand it correctly, I would like to have a

20 translation. We'll mark it for identification.

21 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI P6184, Your Honours.

23 MS. GUSTAFSON:

24 Q. Now, Mr. -- Dr. Kicanovic, you discussed in some detail the

25 events in Bijeljina on the 31st of March, 1992, and the following few

Page 34882

1 days, and that's at paragraphs 12 to 15 of your statement. And when I

2 read your statement, I admit I was somewhat taken aback by the fact that

3 there was no mention whatsoever of Arkan or Arkan's Serbian Volunteer

4 Guard anywhere.

5 You don't dispute, do you, that a group of Arkan's Serbian

6 Volunteer Guard forces entered Bijeljina at this time and was involved in

7 the conflict there?

8 A. I do not dispute that. However, I did not refer to it since, if

9 you look at my statement, on the 31st of March and on the 1st of April,

10 that night I spent guarding my building, guarding my family, wife,

11 children, and grandchildren. Early in the morning that day, I left

12 Bijeljina and went to the countryside where there were no upsetting

13 events, nothing that would hint at anything evil happening. Had I --

14 then I left my family with my friends in the country and tried to get

15 back to the town, believing that I could be of assistance as a surgeon.

16 However, I was not able to enter the town due to combat.

17 I don't know who fought whom at the time, but I returned to

18 Dvorovi village, which is 4 kilometres away from Bijeljina, where I set

19 up a makeshift outpatient clinic so that in case there were injuries or

20 woundings, we could take care of the wounded, and indeed that's what

21 happened. Early in the morning, they already brought in a number of

22 wounded whom we treated initially and then sent on to hospitals in

23 Serbia.

24 As for Arkan, yes, it's a fact that he was in Bijeljina. I

25 wasn't in Bijeljina at the time, though.

Page 34883

1 Q. How about when you returned to the town on the 3rd of April or on

2 the following days? Did you see Arkan's men in the town then?

3 A. Well, yes, they were about town. I didn't see them, though. But

4 when I returned to the town, I went to the hospital. I went back on my

5 own, since my family was in the country, and I was very busy trying to

6 sort things out at the hospital since it had been blocked by Muslim

7 forces. There was chaos and all of the medication was gone. Yes?

8 Q. Sorry. I'm just going to interrupt you because you did answer my

9 question in the first line. You said you -- that Arkan's men were about

10 town but you didn't see them. And I'd just like to ask you to limit your

11 answer --

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. I'd just like to ask you to please limit your answers to the

14 specific question I pose just because our time is limited. Thank you.

15 A. Very well. Thank you.

16 Q. Okay. You said in your statement at paragraph 22 that there was

17 no take-over of power in Bijeljina. You said that Bijeljina municipality

18 was not overtaken but kept. But it's true, is it not, that the events of

19 early April 1992 included a political transformation such that Bijeljina

20 became an entity of the Bosnian Serb state or became known as Republika

21 Srpska?

22 A. At the time -- may I? At the time, Republika Srpska did not

23 exist. There was only Bosnia and Herzegovina. At the elections, we won

24 power in a legal way because we had the majority and we set up our

25 authorities and the Assembly together with the Muslims. There were 18 of

Page 34884

1 their deputies in the Assembly. I see no reason for the term

2 "take-over." It simply went on as it was before.

3 As for the Bosnian Serbs, well, that may not be the best choice

4 of words, but then it's your choice.

5 MS. GUSTAFSON: Could we have P2629, please.

6 Q. Dr. Kicanovic, the document that's appearing on your screen is a

7 report from the Bijeljina Public Security Station, and in the third

8 paragraph on the first page it states that since the 1st of April, 1992,

9 the Bijeljina Public Security Station has existed and operated according

10 to the instructions and guidelines of the Ministry of the Interior of the

11 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And it states that on the

12 31st of March, all contacts with the Tuzla Security Services Centre

13 stopped, and no reports or information on the current situation have been

14 sent to them despite daily requests to this effect sent by the old

15 security services centre to which the Bijeljina Public Security Station

16 belonged up to the 1st of April.

17 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we go to page 2 of the English and page 3

18 of the B/C/S. And it's at the bottom of the page in B/C/S and in the

19 middle of the English just below the first set of underlined words.

20 Q. It says:

21 "Currently we are augmenting our reserves to meet the

22 100 per cent increase. I have managed to procure some of the equipment,

23 berets and badges with the tricolour from the Serbian MUP and our police

24 officers have worn them since they first went out into the streets on

25 4 April 1992."

Page 34885

1 And this report indicates, does it not, that things did not

2 simply go on as they were before, certainly not with respect to the MUP,

3 which transformed into an entity of the Bosnian Serb Republic; right?

4 A. Well, you'll have to discuss that with someone from the MUP. As

5 I told you, I was in the health sector only. I'm not aware of this. I

6 do know, however, that in terms of health care, all ties have been

7 severed between us and the funds, and we remained isolated. As for any

8 berets and badges, it's not something I can comment on. I'm not aware of

9 it.

10 Q. Okay. And were you aware that Mr. Novakovic, Bijeljina deputy at

11 the 16th Assembly session, that's the republic Assembly, on the

12 12th of May, 1992, said, and this is P956, page 22:

13 "The region of Semberija and Majevica, since what is Serbian

14 there was liberated long ago and the people are already gradually getting

15 used to it. I must say that those who were our enemies, in other words,

16 the Muslims, that they got used to this, too, and interestingly, from my

17 lifetime experience and what I have seen in the last month, they

18 co-operate best when there is Serbian rule. That is what they react to

19 best. When there is Serbian authority, then there is peace in the

20 house."

21 Now, clearly, Mr. Novakovic by describing events in Semberija and

22 Majevica as liberation and making observations from what he has seen

23 particularly in the past month regarding the reaction of Muslims to

24 Serbian rule, he is not describing a situation where things went on as

25 before, but, rather, a transformation to Serbian rule; right?

Page 34886

1 A. That's the way he put it. He was a deputy, and those are his

2 words. However, in Bijeljina and in Ugljevik and Lopare, which form part

3 of Semberija and Majevica, even before these events, Serbs had power in

4 the Assembly and Executive Boards. Muslims, I don't know what they had

5 and what they had to get used to. They lived alongside Serbs in a loyal

6 fashion as they do nowadays. What Dr. Novakovic had in mind when he said

7 that is something I can't explain.

8 Q. Okay. At paragraph 27 of your statement you were asked about

9 adjudicated facts regarding SDS activities in Bijeljina, including

10 actions of Bijeljina Crisis Staff members, and in that paragraph you

11 state:

12 "There was never a Crisis Staff in Bijeljina."

13 I'm going to put to you, Dr. Kicanovic, that that's totally

14 false. There was an active and functioning Crisis Staff in Bijeljina at

15 the time of the conflict there and beyond.

16 A. In Bijeljina was the Presidency of the Bijeljina Municipal

17 Assembly. Because the Assembly could not be convened for a session, a

18 municipal Presidency was set up comprising some 10 people who managed the

19 municipality at the time. If someone called that group "Crisis Staff,"

20 that's something I am unaware of. I was not persuaded or convinced that

21 it was a Crisis Staff. A Crisis Staff is a different thing. In

22 Bijeljina, at first and later on into the war, no state of war was

23 declared.

24 MS. GUSTAFSON: Can we go to P2629 again, please. And if we

25 could go to the bottom of page 1 in the English and page 3 in the B/C/S.

Page 34887

1 And here it says that the -- at the bottom of page 1:

2 "During the night and the next day," and it's talking about the

3 31st of March, "the Territorial Defence, the Serbian National Guard and

4 the Serbian Volunteer Guard starting removing the barricades under the

5 supervision of the Bijeljina Municipal Assembly Crisis Staff."

6 And if we could now go to P2626.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Could we have some time

8 to establish this? To find it?

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

10 MS. GUSTAFSON: It's at the bottom of page 1, the top of page 2

11 in the English, and it's the first full paragraph on page 3 of the B/C/S.

12 JUDGE KWON: I wonder if it's legible at all. Just let's

13 collapse the English one for the moment and zoom in.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Unless there's a translation error,

15 the document doesn't say that the barricades were controlled by the

16 Crisis Staff. It says that these were Muslim barricades.

17 MS. GUSTAFSON: Sorry --

18 JUDGE KWON: Just --

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, but it least

20 the witness to a wrong trap.

21 MS. GUSTAFSON: The English says -- it's quite clear that it says

22 that the Serbian National Guard and the Serbian Volunteer Guard starting

23 removing the barricades under the supervision of the Crisis Staff --

24 JUDGE KWON: Let's see whether ... "Krizni Stab," is it

25 "Crisis Staff"? Eighth line. Is that what is to be translated

Page 34888

1 "Crisis Staff"?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE KWON: You may take up this issue in your re-examination

4 then. Let's continue, then.

5 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes. If we could go to P2626.

6 Q. This is a fax from the Bijeljina Crisis Staff to the SDS

7 Main Board reporting on the situation on the 1st of April, 1992, in

8 Bijeljina, and you can see "Bijeljina Crisis Staff" appears both at the

9 very top of the page and again type signed at the bottom "Crisis Staff

10 Bijeljina." And we have in evidence as well a televised interview with

11 Mrs. Plavsic - this is P5587 - during her visit to Bijeljina, and she

12 says:

13 "It was my choice to first visit the local Serbian people's

14 Crisis Staff and meet here with Mr. Arkan and his associates."

15 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go to P2855, page 5 of the

16 English and page 6 of the B/C/S. This is a report from the 28th of July,

17 1992, from the VRS Main Staff on paramilitaries, and at the bottom of the

18 English and in the middle of the B/C/S it says:

19 "Although they were banned, the municipal Crisis Staff in

20 Bijeljina and individual Crisis Staffs in local communes are still

21 functioning in the Eastern Bosnia Corps zone of responsibility."

22 It says:

23 "They are connected by radio and the so-called guards

24 communications centre is also in this link. The Crisis Staffs mostly

25 employ the guards' supporters."

Page 34889

1 Now, Dr. Kicanovic, we've now seen, I think, five references to

2 the Bijeljina Crisis Staff including a fax from that Crisis Staff to the

3 SDS Main Board. Now, whatever you may think about the existence of this

4 Crisis Staff, it clearly existed and functioned, didn't it?

5 A. I do believe that the Crisis Staff existed somewhere. However,

6 as regards Bijeljina and its Municipal Board, I was unaware of any

7 Crisis Staff.

8 Secondly, you mentioned that the Crisis Staff was in control of

9 the barricades. The barricades in Bijeljina were set up by Muslims and

10 no Crisis Staff had anything to do with it. If there was a Muslim

11 Crisis Staff which set up the barricades, then that's fine, but as

12 regards the municipal leadership in Bijeljina, we only had the Presidency

13 which functioned. Now, if someone called it "Crisis Staff" or defined as

14 such, then, well, please. I didn't look at it as a Crisis Staff.

15 Q. Okay. At paragraph 24 of your statement you were asked about the

16 adjudicated fact that 48 bodies were collected from the town's streets

17 and that 45 of those bodies were of non-Serbs. And you said that

18 according to your findings, there were 42 casualties, 7 of whom were Serb

19 victims. Now did you personally see any of the bodies of any of these

20 victims?

21 A. When I came to the hospital I saw many bodies which were not

22 taken care of at all according to the medical rules, and I requested from

23 the public security station to send someone to identify those who were

24 dead and to remove them from the hospital complex. Individually, I did

25 not see anyone. The report was given to me by the official who conducted

Page 34890

1 the on-site investigation, so that was the information that I learned,

2 and this is what I said in my statement.

3 As for the number of 48, I suppose that some additional persons

4 were identified except for the information provided by the person who

5 conducted the on-site investigation at the hospital. There were seven

6 Serbs and the first casualty in Bijeljina was a young woman who came out

7 onto her balcony to see what was happening and who was hit by a bullet in

8 her chest. That's what happened at the time.

9 Q. Okay. So you don't dispute that there could have been 48 bodies

10 collected from the streets, but your number of 42 came from an

11 investigation conducted of the -- in relation to the bodies that were at

12 the hospital. Is that a correct understanding?

13 A. That's right. In the hospital complex, of course.

14 Q. Okay.

15 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to 65 ter 08281, please.

16 Q. This is a "Slobodna Bosna" article from the 10th of April, 1992.

17 Now, "Slobodna Bosna," that was a Sarajevo-based publication; right?

18 A. I don't know, but probably.

19 Q. Okay. Now, in the -- if we could zoom in a little bit on the

20 left-hand side of the B/C/S and the bold text there and then the other

21 text to the left there describes a visit to Bijeljina by a state

22 delegation consisting of Biljana Plavsic, Fikret Abdic, and

23 General Prascevic. Do you recall this state delegation visiting

24 Bijeljina in the days following the conflict?

25 A. Yes, I remember it. That was immediately after the conflict.

Page 34891

1 They first came to the town of Bijeljina, but they could not enter it

2 because of the guards which were guarding the roads. They were not

3 announced. The guards were not informed about their visit, and then they

4 came on the following day and they did enter the town.

5 Q. Okay. If we could move to the middle of the B/C/S in that box,

6 you see it says "The victims," and there is a list there of names in bold

7 of victims of the conflict in Bijeljina. And I'd like you to look at

8 that list and tell me if you can confirm, based on your knowledge, that

9 any of those people were indeed victims as this article states.

10 A. Yes. For example, this one Lukic, it was the brother of

11 Veljko Lukic Kurijak [phoen] who was a people's hero. And Mirjana Lukic,

12 that was first casualty that I mentioned. As for the others, I do not

13 recognise their names. Yes, this one Redzep, up here. I used to know

14 him. He lost his life because they found weapons in his house. This is

15 Zvonko. I think he was just a passer-by in the street who got killed.

16 And as for the others, judging by the names, I really could not claim

17 that those were the ones. Or Bego Sindric. Bego Sindric, he wasn't. He

18 was wounded, and we found him at the Bijeljina hospital. He was in the

19 emergency room because he had a gunshot wound to his lungs, and his gall

20 had burst, and we treated him.

21 Q. And did he survive?

22 A. He survived these events, but, no, eventually he didn't. He died

23 several days afterwards, after all of these events.

24 Q. Okay.

25 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to page 2 in both languages,

Page 34892

1 please. Now, this is at the -- this is the first full paragraph on

2 page 2 of the B/C/S, so on the far left-hand side, and the last paragraph

3 under the heading on the -- in the English.

4 Q. And the journalist is describing the site when entering the town,

5 and says that there was a Serbian flag raised on top of the mosque. Do

6 you recall this, the Serbian flag being raised on top of the mosque after

7 the conflict in Bijeljina?

8 A. Yes, but it was taken off quickly, it was an insult both to the

9 Serbs and the Muslims. There was a flag, but it was an irresponsible

10 person who put it there. And I really don't like the cartoon which is

11 depicted here, but that's up to Mr. Ajanovic.

12 Q. Okay. And then if we go to the text just below the heading, it

13 describes a discussion -- a meeting between Fikret Abdic and

14 General Jankovic, and in the second paragraph General Jankovic says that

15 there are some refugees. He says that there are 300 people --

16 A. I'm not receiving interpretation. I mean I don't hear anything

17 in my headphones.

18 Q. How about now? Can you hear me now? Okay. So now --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. I'm now looking at the text just below the heading

21 discussing the refugees, and General Jankovic says that there are about

22 300 people here, and he's at the barracks at that point. And that

23 there -- but he says that there are about 1.500 in Patkovaca, and he

24 says, "In this camp we have both Serbs and Muslims. In Patkovaca there

25 are only the Muslims." Can you confirm that there were these refugees in

Page 34893

1 these locations as described by General Jankovic here?

2 A. I don't know whether they were refugees but I can confirm that

3 there were many people at the barracks in Bijeljina which is a huge area.

4 Many people came there seeking shelter from these unfortunate events, the

5 shootouts in the town. Many people sought shelter there, and in my

6 belief, as I saw them there, they were well taken care of. They received

7 food and tea and so on, and they were safe there. All of them felt safe

8 and secure in the barracks. And as for Patkovaca and this camp, I'm not

9 aware of it.

10 Q. Are you familiar with the location Patkovaca?

11 A. Yes. That's the neighbouring village next to Bijeljina.

12 Q. Okay.

13 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go to page 5 of the English and

14 page -- this is also on page 2 of the B/C/S but on the far right-hand

15 side. And this is about in the middle of the page, just below the

16 middle, and it starts with a reference to the park. And it says that --

17 and this is the top of the English, that Biljana Plavsic, General

18 Pascevic and General Jankovic talked to Arkan in the park. Plavsic

19 appeals to Arkan to allow the army to take over the town. Arkan refuses.

20 And then in the next paragraph or two paragraphs down it says:

21 "Dr. Klicanovic came along to protest against plunder of Muslim

22 houses and talked to a man in a grey suit apparently from the Serbian

23 Crisis Staff. This must not go on. It must stop. And then went on to

24 speak of the torture of a child."

25 Now, the name is Klicanovic, but I assume that's a reference to

Page 34894

1 you, and I'd like to ask you do you recall -- and I note also that in

2 paragraph 15 of your statement you talked about the mistreatment of a

3 Serb boy in the hospital.

4 Do you recall making this protest about the plunder of Muslim

5 houses and the torture of a child on this occasion when the state

6 delegation was in Bijeljina?

7 A. Yes, I remember, but once again, in the park, there is a square

8 in front of the Bijeljina municipality building with plain trees which we

9 called a small park in Bijeljina. It's in the centre of the town, and

10 it's an open space. Yes.

11 As for this, that Arkan requested to take over the barracks, he

12 was not allowed to do that, and he did not take over it. And I remember

13 that I directly addressed a man whose name I don't know or anything else,

14 but I said, Please protect the Muslims, protect the people, because all

15 this time we were receiving instructions, even from President Karadzic,

16 that the civilians were to be treated in a humane way and that the

17 soldiers were to be treated in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.

18 And as for this boy whom I mentioned, it was an 11-year-old boy

19 who was operated on because he had his appendix removed two days before

20 these unfortunate events in Bijeljina, and they threw him out. And when

21 his father came to pick him up, then they beat him up and they also beat

22 up his father. So before I came here, I talked to this man who does not

23 like to remember these events, and thank God the boy recovered well and

24 now he's a grown-up man doing his job and so on and so forth.

25 So I meant, when I talked about him, that all the people should

Page 34895

1 be protected from those who -- to say frankly, individuals who, like

2 anywhere in wars, were doing many things that are inappropriate for

3 humankind and inappropriate to be done by a contemporary man.

4 Q. Okay. And then just below that reference it refers to Plavsic

5 thanking Arkan for his intervention and kissing him good-bye. And again

6 I'd like to ask you if you recall that Mrs. Plavsic thanked Arkan and

7 kissed him good-bye on this occasion.

8 A. No, I didn't see that she kissed him, and in addition to that,

9 whether she thanked him or not, this is something I didn't hear it. But

10 the journalist, I see it's Sejo Omeragic here, they used to write all

11 sorts of things at the time. And believe me, they were the ones who

12 fanned the flames of hatred, the inter-ethnic hatred at the time.

13 Q. Well, the Chamber has received evidence of a video of

14 Mrs. Plavsic kissing Arkan good-bye that appeared on television. You

15 didn't see this -- this kiss on television?

16 A. Not on TV, because at the time we did not watch TV at all. There

17 was no electricity in Bijeljina so -- but personally I haven't seen that.

18 I didn't see it then, and I didn't see it later, because believe me, I

19 only watched sports on TV after everything that has happened.

20 Q. Okay.

21 MS. GUSTAFSON: On the basis of the witness's answers to my

22 questions, I'd like to tender this article.

23 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I think that the parts of the

24 article that the witness confirmed can be admitted, and if you want to go

25 through that, we could identify them or else I could do that with

Page 34896

1 Ms. Gunderson [sic]. But there were some parts of the article he

2 confirmed, some he didn't confirm, and most of it is not discussed at

3 all, so we think we should be selective in how we admit it.

4 JUDGE KWON: He discussed it and I am of the view we need to

5 admit it in its entirety.

6 MR. ROBINSON: Well, there's a lot of portions of this article

7 that deal with topics that he didn't discuss, and particularly it seems

8 like it would be unfair given that you've refused to allow us to subpoena

9 Fikret Abdic who was mentioned in many of the parts of this article, so

10 to allow some journalist's version of these events without giving us the

11 opportunity to -- hear from a participant seems unfair.

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

13 MS. GUSTAFSON: Well, Your Honours, I mean the parts that were

14 put to the witness I certainly agreed with. The parts that weren't shown

15 to him, that will obviously go to the weight of the article, but I

16 believe there's sufficient indicia of reliability based on the witness's

17 answers for this article to be admitted.

18 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will admit only those parts which were

19 put to the witness.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6185, Your Honours.

21 MS. GUSTAFSON:

22 Q. Dr. Kicanovic, did you have any personal interactions with Arkan

23 during the war?

24 A. I did, because I treated his fighters. He had many wounded who

25 were brought to our hospital, and he paid to the hospital regularly,

Page 34897

1 because his fighters had no insurance. So he did visit the hospital, as

2 I say, in connection with his wounded soldiers.

3 Q. So you would meet with him at the hospital; is that right?

4 A. Well, no. I saw him later on in other places, too. For example,

5 on one occasion I met him I can't remember where. Outside the hospital.

6 But for the most part the contact we had took place at the hospital.

7 Q. Sorry, I'm a little confused. Did you meet him at the hospital

8 during the war?

9 A. Well, I didn't meet him in the sense that we had appointments,

10 but I used to see him from time to time, and I met him in the sense that

11 we had to resolve the problems concerning his wounded soldiers.

12 MS. GUSTAFSON: Okay. Your Honours, I see that I'm just at my

13 45 minutes. I have one topic. It should take five to seven minutes.

14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

15 MS. GUSTAFSON:

16 Q. Dr. Kicanovic, at paragraphs 25 to 27 of your statement, you

17 commented on some adjudicated facts relating to expulsions and other

18 crimes against Muslims from Bijeljina, and at paragraph 25, sorry, you

19 assert that there was no organised campaign of looting and expulsions

20 targeting Bijeljina Muslims. It's true, is it not, that thousands of

21 Muslims from Bijeljina were expelled during the war?

22 A. Miss, if a thousand Muslims had been expelled from Bijeljina, I

23 cannot claim that it wasn't so, but they were not expelled. They left.

24 They went away from the area where combat was ongoing and where the

25 Muslims were no longer a majority. However, as I said, there were

Page 34898

1 individual attempts to take the Muslims over across the demarcation line.

2 In any case, lists were received from Tuzla listing people who should be

3 taken over. This was done by individuals. It had nothing to do with the

4 authorities in Bijeljina. There were no expulsions whatsoever. After

5 all, there were Muslims working in my hospital. They worked there during

6 the war and they continue to do so now. So no one expelled them. And as

7 for the fact that they left, they did. Yes, please go ahead.

8 Q. I understand it's your position that there were no expulsions

9 although people left.

10 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to P54 --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there weren't.

12 MS. GUSTAFSON: P5483, please. This is an ICRC press release.

13 It's only in English.

14 Q. I will read the relevant part to you. It says:

15 "On the night of 28 August," and this is 1994, "a group of

16 432 Muslims from the Bijeljina area were forced by Bosnian Serb

17 authorities to cross the front line into Bosnian government held

18 territory near the town of Tuzla. This was the eighth such transfer

19 since mid-July, bringing to 1.102 the number of Muslim civilians driven

20 out of the area."

21 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could now go to P5423, and page -- on

22 page 2 there is a protest letter to Dr. Karadzic, again only in English,

23 dated the 20th of September, 1994. Mr. Akashi conveys his utter dismay

24 at the fact that in the past few days, over 2.500 Muslim civilians have

25 been forcibly expelled from the area of Bijeljina and Janja. It says

Page 34899

1 many of those vulnerable people expelled were apparently robbed and

2 abused en route by criminal elements led by a man known as Vojkan. And

3 then it refers to assurances that Dr. Karadzic had given that such

4 expulsions were not in accordance with Bosnian Serb policies, and then

5 describes the failure to -- Akashi's failure to understand how this

6 deplorable situation could continue despite these commitments.

7 Q. And the Chamber's received as well --

8 JUDGE KWON: Now, your question, Ms. Gustafson.

9 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'm sorry, I have a couple more -- one more

10 document to show the witness.

11 JUDGE KWON: I was wondering the point of you putting these

12 documents after your time is up. You asked the question and the witness

13 answered. You can use this in your final submission.

14 MS. GUSTAFSON: Well, no, I'm now trying to impeach the witness

15 and my goal is to show him a number of documents that will show that

16 everybody knew this and that he must have known it too. And I would just

17 like to show him one more document in that regard and then put my

18 question if I may.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please.

21 MS. GUSTAFSON:

22 Q. Dr. Kicanovic, if we could now go to P1473. And I will mention

23 as well that the Chamber has received into evidence a UN Security Council

24 Resolution complaining about the ethnic cleansing in Bijeljina at this

25 time - and that's P5424 - and a BBC television report on Vojkan's ethnic

Page 34900

1 cleansing activities, P2073.

2 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go now go to page 87 of this

3 document in both languages. This is an extract from General Mladic's

4 military notebook from the 13th of April, 1995, and the heading is

5 "Meeting with the parents of prisoners." And Mr. Djordje Krstic says to

6 General Mladic: It is not clear to us who orders the expulsion of

7 Muslims. Vojkan takes them away in their socks. Djordje Sekulic,

8 further down the page, says the rumour in Bijeljina is that Mauzer is

9 taking away Muslims and not Vojkan. On the next page, Dragica Spasojevic

10 says: The persecution of the Muslims will make the position of our

11 children worse, and she's referring to Serb prisoners. And

12 Zorica Stjepanovic says: There are groups that are doing incredible

13 things, that Vojkan does strange things.

14 Now, Dr. Kicanovic, the ICRC knew, the UN knew, Dr. Karadzic

15 knew, General Mladic knew, and these apparently ordinary inhabitants of

16 Bijeljina knew that Muslims were being expelled from Bijeljina. This

17 information was widely disseminated to the public. You must have known

18 this, too; isn't that right?

19 A. Yes. Yes. Expulsions. Vojkan Djurkovic, Vojislav Djurkovic,

20 Vojislav Puskar, did these kind of things during the war. He did take

21 the Muslims up to the demarcation line but not in the sense of expelling

22 them, but in the sense of helping them to leave the territory. These

23 people are living around the world nowadays. They probably requested to

24 go somewhere where they would live better, but no one talks here about

25 the multitude of Serbs who had come from the towns which were under

Page 34901

1 Muslim control, from Tuzla and including Zenica, Sarajevo, Bugojno, and

2 so on and so forth. All the big towns. At the hospital I --

3 Q. Dr. Kicanovic, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but your answer is now

4 straying away from the question. Thank you for answering my --

5 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. I think he should be

6 allowed to complete his answer. She's already used up more than enough

7 time. The least she can do is give him a little time.

8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Kicanovic.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. At the time I was the

10 director of the hospital, and I received 280 members of medical staff who

11 left other towns. Were they expelled or whether they came to Bijeljina

12 because they would feel better there, I don't know, but it was the same

13 with the Muslims. No one expelled them. No one forced them away. They

14 went where life would be better for them. Those who wanted to stay

15 stayed and they could work normally. Even at the Bijeljina hospital we

16 had two doctors who were Muslims and who continued to work throughout the

17 war. So it was not a matter of expulsions but simply, as I say, helping

18 people to go where they wanted to go. Thank you.

19 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Dr. Kicanovic.

20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, if you have any re-examination.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Only a few questions,

24 Your Excellency.

25 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

Page 34902

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kicanovic.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. I have to remind you yet again to pause as I do myself and to

4 speak slowly.

5 On page 3 you were asked about some terms or linguistic

6 formulations used in your statement. Can you tell us who took your

7 statement and who took Mr. Simic's statement, if you know who he

8 discussed it with? You don't need to mention the name, but is it the

9 same investigator?

10 A. I think it is.

11 Q. Leaving aside the words themselves, what about the gist of what

12 you shared with us in the statement? Is what you said objectively true?

13 A. Yes. I think it is absolutely true.

14 Q. Thank you. On page 5 you were asked what country there existed

15 on the 31st of March and the 1st of April, or what state. Can you tell

16 us in what capacity did Biljana Plavsic, Fikret Abdic and others visit

17 Bijeljina during the crisis?

18 A. They visited it as members of the Presidency of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina, as members of the Presidency. Since the Presidency

20 comprised five people.

21 Q. Thank you. Can you recall until what date we recognised the

22 existence of the central authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23 A. Probably until the Assembly. I don't know. When did they set up

24 the referendum to secede, because the Serbs did not wish to leave

25 Yugoslavia in order to unite -- to join the unitary Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 34903

1 I don't know about a date.

2 Q. Thank you. So on the 1st and 2nd of April, Biljana Plavsic still

3 participated in the work of the joint bodies.

4 A. Yes. And she was there with Doko and Fikret in Bijeljina.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at P2629. No, 2626,

7 please. 2629. Let's save time, then. 2629, then.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see anything.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll deal with it. Page 3, please.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. First of all, in the middle of paragraph 3, because it's

12 illegible, I'm going to read it out.

13 For the sake of caution, the Crisis Staff of the SAO Bijeljina

14 decided to renew the work of elementary schools and so on.

15 How does this tally with your ideas of the existence of a staff

16 and Presidency?

17 A. Well, that is what is in dispute here. You see, there is a

18 reference here to the Presidency, that the Crisis Staff grew into the

19 Presidency. No. The Presidency was established from the list of

20 Assemblymen of the municipality of Bijeljina and some other persons. The

21 Presidency of the Municipal Assembly existed and it was in charge of life

22 in Bijeljina, the reconstruction of schools, bringing power, water,

23 et cetera.

24 Q. Thank you. We'll go back to that. Let us look at paragraph 2,

25 where it has been suggested that barricades were placed under the control

Page 34904

1 of the Crisis Staff. I would like to read this carefully and ask the

2 interpreters --

3 MS. GUSTAFSON: Sorry. That was never suggested. I simply read

4 out this passage that says that the National Guard and the Serbian

5 Volunteer Guard started removing the barricades under the supervision of

6 the Bijeljina Crisis Staff. So there was never any suggestion --

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

8 MS. GUSTAFSON: -- that the barricades were under the control of

9 the Crisis Staff.

10 JUDGE KWON: Correct. Shall we locate the paragraph first.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's on the page that we see. It's

12 the second page from the top in Serbian, and it's probably the removal of

13 barricades. Actually it starts on the previous page in English, most

14 probably.

15 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Gustafson never talked about the issue of

16 barricade was control of who. It was you that raised the question by way

17 of intervention. Do you refer to the paragraph starting with "The

18 removal of barricades"?

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no. It's the previous one.

20 Then that's the interpretation I received, and I believe that the witness

21 intervened as well, saying that it wasn't the Crisis Staff that put up

22 these barricades. Then probably the interpretation into Serbian was

23 poor.

24 JUDGE KWON: If you could help us, Ms. Gustafson, in finding the

25 B/C/S paragraph. Do we see it in front of us now?

Page 34905

1 MS. GUSTAFSON: It should be in the middle of page 3 of the

2 B/C/S. I'm not sure what page we're on now.

3 JUDGE KWON: And the English paragraph is the one we are seeing

4 in front of us.

5 MS. GUSTAFSON: That's right, the --

6 JUDGE KWON: Starting with "The removal of barricades ..."

7 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes, the -- it starts on the preceding page, but

8 that's it, yes.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Shall we show the first page. Let's read

10 out -- let the witness read out the full paragraph.

11 Now, what is your question, Mr. Karadzic?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The question is whether this police

13 report sent to Minister Stanisic here correctly states that the

14 Crisis Staff grew into the Presidency.

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. You clarified that a moment ago.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Second question: The Territorial Defence, was it a legitimate

19 formation in Bijeljina?

20 A. Well, in Bijeljina there was only the Territorial Defence. As

21 far as legal formations are concerned, these were people who were

22 territorials and who had prepared earlier on for possible -- well, you

23 know yourself what Territorial Defence means.

24 Q. That was probably a mistranslation or misinterpretation of what

25 the learned Ms. Gustafson said. It turned out that it was the

Page 34906

1 Crisis Staff that controlled the barricades.

2 All right. We can drop that now.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have P2629 in order to

4 clarify this confusion regarding Crisis Staffs.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Dr. Kicanovic, do you make a distinction between party organs and

7 state organs?

8 A. Of course I do.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P2629. I beg your pardon. 2626.

10 I'm so sorry.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Party organs, did they have executive power in the municipality

13 or could they just report to the party, inform the party?

14 A. Party organs could report to the party and individuals took part

15 in government.

16 Q. We had a better one, but all right, we see it in English.

17 Please, can you tell us here on the basis of the letterhead -- I'm going

18 to read it out in English because it's more legible.

19 The SDS of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the SDS Municipal Board Bijeljina

20 Crisis Staff to SDS Main Board Sarajevo. Subject, yes, report.

21 Now, this Crisis Staff of the party, is that the same thing as

22 the Crisis Staff of the municipal authorities?

23 A. No, it's not the same thing. The party was separate then, and of

24 course now parties are also separate from government. They participate

25 to the extent to which they participate in government as such.

Page 34907

1 Q. Can we now go back to that document --

2 JUDGE KWON: Then, Dr. Kicanovic, do you then confirm there

3 existed a Crisis Staff in SDS Bijeljina? Bijeljina SDS.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Probably that did exist. I

5 was not involved because I had other commitments.

6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Could you please tell us -- let us not call up that article.

10 It's already been admitted. Can you tell us, Lukic, Mirjana Ilic,

11 Lazarevic, Djokic, Novakovic and others, what is their ethnic background?

12 And they are among the victims.

13 A. Of course they're Serbs, ethnic Serbs.

14 Q. You were asked about that I think on page 9, or was it 8? It's

15 that text from "Slobodna Bosna" where the names of the victims are

16 mentioned, and you noticed these names?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Then you advocated the protection of Muslims, and you spoke

19 against the looting of Muslim houses.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could all unnecessary

21 microphones please be switched off. Thank you.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. What is the ethnic background of this young boy who was

24 mistreated in hospital and who was it that mistreated him?

25 A. His name is Dragan Kalabic. His ethnic background is Serb and he

Page 34908

1 was mistreated by the Muslims who had occupied the hospital and who put

2 up barricades in front of the hospital preventing anyone else except for

3 them from entering the hospital.

4 Q. It doesn't say who it was that mistreated him. It wasn't all the

5 Muslims; right?

6 A. Well, not all the Muslims, but the extremists who entered the

7 hospital. I don't know the exact names of the persons who entered the

8 hospital and I didn't ask who they were exactly, but at any rate, it was

9 the extremist Muslims who had started the war in the first place.

10 Q. Thank you. On page 19, you mentioned that some Muslims stayed on

11 living in Bijeljina and that there were some who worked in hospital

12 throughout the war and that they still work there today. Can you tell us

13 what the differentia specifica is? What was the distinction between

14 those who wanted to stay and those who wanted to leave?

15 A. I don't know what the difference or distinction is, but those who

16 wanted to stay stayed and probably felt safe. Probably those who were

17 afraid of something left. So what would happen would be that during one

18 night we would have no more Muslim nurses left because they had simply

19 left the hospital, and there was no pressure that had been exerted

20 whatsoever.

21 Q. Thank you. Dr. Kicanovic, I would just like to mention a number

22 D1438. We don't have to call it up. We just want the participants to

23 see this. On the 8th of April, 1992, there is this order banning the

24 carrying of weapons in public places, and it was Cvijetin Simic who

25 signed it?

Page 34909

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, we did not catch the office

2 that this person held.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. How does this fit into your knowledge regarding the existence of

5 a Crisis Staff as a municipal organ of government?

6 A. There's a reference here to the municipal Presidency and

7 Mr. Cvijetin Simic who signed it. I remember that an order was issued --

8 JUDGE KWON: I don't follow this. Without watching the document,

9 how can the witness answer the question at all? It's a leading question.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm just asking -- I'm telling the

11 participants that already this -- I mean, it was on the 8th of April that

12 this order was issued and it was issued by the Presidency, not by the

13 Crisis Staff. But we can take a look at it, D1438.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Can you tell us who was not allowed to carry weapons and who

16 issued this order?

17 A. Everyone was prohibited from carrying long-barrelled weapons in

18 the street, because there was truly chaos there. And this was issued by

19 the Presidency of the municipality, and it was Mr. Cvijetin Simic who was

20 the president of the Presidency.

21 Q. Could you please tell us what the date was and how this tallies

22 with your own position regarding the existence of a Crisis Staff?

23 A. I don't know what the date is. You said it was the 8th of April.

24 I cannot see it here because I simply cannot see.

25 Q. It's at the bottom.

Page 34910

1 A. All right. I see. Presidency of the Municipal Assembly of

2 Bijeljina, for the president Cvijetin Simic, the date is the

3 8th of April, 1992, and that has nothing to do with the Crisis Staff.

4 That is the Presidency of the municipality.

5 Q. Who would have signed this order had there been a Crisis Staff in

6 existence at that point in time?

7 A. Probably the person who was in charge of the Crisis Staff, and

8 there -- that was not Cvijetin Simic.

9 Q. Thank you. You were asked about the departure of -- actually,

10 you saw or we saw that in some documents there's a reference to the

11 forcible expulsion of Muslims. Can you tell us how big a unit would have

12 to be in order to expel 2.500 Muslims and what unit would that be?

13 A. There was not a single unit that did that. There were

14 individuals. In order for someone to expel 2.500 persons, he'd probably

15 have to have a well-armed unit. I don't know. I'm not very

16 knowledgeable about these things, but say 400 men? But that did not

17 exist.

18 Q. Vojkan, how many armed soldiers did he have who would have

19 carried out that expulsion?

20 A. Vojkan Djurkovic did not have any soldiers. He just had this

21 friend, a pal who helped him, and again, I'm saying that he did that on

22 the basis of lists that were submitted to him from Tuzla through a

23 certain Mr. Bakir Pasic.

24 Q. This Bakir Pasic, what was his ethnic background?

25 A. Well, I wouldn't know his ethnic background, but in terms of

Page 34911

1 religious background he must have been a Muslim.

2 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what the

3 position of the authorities was, central and local, in relation to the

4 departure of persons on any basis, the departure of Muslims from

5 Bijeljina?

6 A. No one at any level was in favour of having people leave their

7 homes, so an effort was made to have everyone stay at home. For a

8 variety of reasons that did not happen, and then Muslims were moved to

9 Muslim territories and Serbs to Serb territories.

10 Q. Thank you. Did you know what my position was regarding people's

11 departures on any basis and also in terms of return? What was my

12 position?

13 A. Mr. President, I was very familiar with your position. Your

14 position was absolutely, absolutely, first of all, against the war; and

15 secondly, persons who are autochthonous should stay where they were.

16 Very often you said the war will pass and we have to stay on here and

17 live together with each other.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D473. Could I have that in

19 e-court, please, briefly.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Was there any risks involved in returns before the end of the

22 war?

23 A. You mean Bijeljina or anywhere?

24 Q. Anywhere. On the whole, was returning before the war was over a

25 risky business?

Page 34912

1 A. Well, yes. I think that it was risky. And if people -- well,

2 I'm not sure there were any excesses in Bijeljina as regards returns.

3 For example, Janja, that is part of the municipality of Bijeljina,

4 practically everybody returned, and they moved back to their own

5 property.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a summary from the working

8 meeting, MUP -- in the MUP on the 20th of August, 1992. In English page

9 10, in Serbian page 8, please.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. In English it says "The situation in Bijeljina," and in Serbian

12 it says:

13 "The situation in Bijeljina is relatively satisfactory, but in

14 truth it is much worse than at first glance. The problem with the Muslim

15 section of the population is compounded by the arrival of Muslim refugees

16 and the return of those who had left Bijeljina before. And it was

17 Mr. Karadzic's and Mr. Panic's recent statements that influenced this.

18 The population includes a number of Muslim extremists, and it is believed

19 that a large number of Muslim citizens owned weapons."

20 Do you remember --

21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

22 MS. GUSTAFSON: Sorry. The witness has absolutely no connection

23 to this document, and this is a leading way of putting the question. If

24 Dr. Karadzic wants to ask a question about events at this time, he should

25 just ask it.

Page 34913

1 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic asked the witness about his own

4 position at the time and the problem of returning refugees, and on that

5 basis probably Mr. Karadzic can ask the witness whether it's consistent

6 with his observation in a neutral way, not in a leading way.

7 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Dr. Kicanovic, how does this tally with your knowledge of my

11 positions concerning returns even during the war?

12 A. You see, during the war the number of returns was reduced. Of

13 course, since a large number of Serbs arrived in Bijeljina who were

14 refugees themselves, and now we had Muslims returning to Bijeljina who

15 had fled before, and there were possibilities of conflict. However, I

16 had no knowledge of any incidents on those grounds. Quite the other way

17 around. People exchanged apartments and houses as in the best friendly

18 relationships. It was your position that everyone should stay on their

19 own, and if there are movements, that everyone should be adequately

20 compensated.

21 Q. Was it also made part of the Dayton Accords? In other words,

22 whoever did not want to return had to be compensated?

23 A. I think so.

24 Q. Thank you, Dr. Kicanovic. I have no further questions. Thank

25 you for everything you did for all three peoples.

Page 34915

1 International Tribunal. That is Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure and

2 Evidence. Under this Rule, you may object to answering any question from

3 Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution, or even from the Judges if you believe

4 that your answer might incriminate you. In this context, "incriminate"

5 means saying something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a

6 criminal offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you

7 might have committed a criminal offence. However, should you think that

8 an answer might incriminate you and as a consequence you refuse to answer

9 the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to

10 compel you to answer the question. But in that situation, the Tribunal

11 would ensure that your testimony compelled in such circumstances would

12 not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence

13 save and except the offence of giving false testimony.

14 Do you understand what I have just told you, sir?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Sarenac.

17 Do you hear me? Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Lieutenant-Colonel Sarenac.

21 A. Good morning.

22 Q. Kindly speak slowly, which also applies to me, and kindly pause

23 between questions and answers so as to have everything recorded in the

24 transcript.

25 A. I understand.

Page 34916

1 Q. Given the fact that your testimony will be led live without your

2 statement being tendered, kindly tell us when and where you were born,

3 and what your first and last name is as well as your father's name.

4 A. I was -- my name is Desimir Sarenac, father's name Novica. I was

5 born on the 5th of May, 1948, in Stari Brod village, Rogatica

6 municipality, Bosnia and Herzegovina.

7 Q. Thank you. Briefly enumerate the degrees you have or your

8 educational background.

9 A. I completed primary school in Borike, Rogatica municipality. I

10 completed the secondary military school in Sarajevo in 1968. I completed

11 the military academy in 1982.

12 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us more about your movements in terms of

13 military service and what were your positions?

14 A. My first position was in Delnice, the Republic of Croatia,

15 between 1968 and 1972. As of 1972 until 1977, I worked in Zagreb as

16 platoon commander. I was platoon commander in Delnice as well as in

17 Zagreb. In 1973, in Zagreb, I joined the military security service. I

18 remained with the service throughout my military career.

19 In 1977, I was transferred to the Bihac garrison as required by

20 the needs of the military. I had the duty of the office -- security

21 officer there. In 1982, I was transferred from Bihac to the Gospic

22 garrison in Croatia where my position was that of security officer until

23 September 1990. In September 1990, I was transferred to the Belgrade

24 garrison as part of regular procedure to the position of security officer

25 as well. I remained in Belgrade until mid-May 1992, when I was

Page 34917

1 transferred to Sarajevo to the 49th Brigade of the JNA or its 4th Corps.

2 I was also security officer there.

3 Q. Thank you. We'll continue with where you left it off. Can you

4 just tell us in the meantime something about the period of your

5 active-duty service in the JNA. Were you commended or did you receive

6 certain awards?

7 A. Yes, I was both commended and received awards during my service

8 with the JNA. I have of the medal for military service and two

9 decorations, one for military service in the JNA with the silver swords,

10 and the medal for the service to the people with service swords. I was

11 also decorated in the VRS where I received the medal for the service to

12 the people.

13 Q. Thank you. What was the situation like on the 16th of May, in

14 mid-May, that is, 1992, when you arrived in the 4th JNA Corps in

15 Sarajevo?

16 A. On the 16th of May, I arrived in the corps where I was appointed

17 security officer in the 49th Brigade. That was the unit's name at the

18 time. The situation was such in the units that officers and soldiers who

19 were then still in the JNA awaited their return to their places of birth

20 in Serbia and other republics. Both the officers and soldiers who hailed

21 from Bosnia-Herzegovina, like myself, remained there or were preparing

22 themselves to remain with the units. Once those soldiers and officers

23 from Serbia and other republics left, the unit was practically decimated.

24 For a while, and especially since I was a new person in the unit, I was

25 very disoriented and very worried as to what the future might hold in

Page 34918

1 store, by which time there had already been attacks on JNA units. There

2 was the pogrom on the JNA column leaving Sarajevo on the 3rd of May.

3 Then there was the case in Tuzla, on the 15th of May, where soldiers were

4 killed en route out of Tuzla. As for the 49th Brigade, eight soldiers

5 went missing on the 22nd of April.

6 All of that had an impact on the morale and sentiments of the

7 personnel which remained. It was a very uneasy situation to be in.

8 Q. Thank you. At the time of your arrival, did you already know

9 anything about the fate of the eight missing soldiers?

10 A. A search was still under way, and all measures had been taken

11 through the organs in Sarajevo, because at that time the JNA was still

12 the legal -- the lawful force in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the army command

13 at the time still operated in its peacetime location in Bistrik.

14 However, there was no verified information as to their whereabouts.

15 There was only speculation as to what could have happened with them.

16 Q. Thank you. What about later? Was it ever found out what had

17 happened to them?

18 A. Later on we received information, but although it wasn't final

19 information because there were different versions in circulation, that

20 they were taken to the old boiler room in the settlement of Srakino Selo

21 and their throats were slit. Another version had it that they were

22 killed in a park next to the department store Sarajevo. Another version

23 had it that they were killed in another park at Bjelave. So for the most

24 part, throughout the war, the search continued much like it continued for

25 other people who went missing, although no final conclusion was ever

Page 34919

1 reached as to their fate and their mortal remains were never found.

2 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us something about the situation in

3 Lukavica, where you were, and what was your relationship like with the

4 neighbouring Serb and Muslim civilian population?

5 A. As of mid-May, from when I arrived until, say, mid-June, I was

6 trying to acquaint myself with the location. The barracks served also as

7 a reception centre for refugees from Sarajevo and its environs such as

8 Visoko and other parts and villages where people were under threat. They

9 all came there where accommodation was found for them. In the barracks

10 there was a mess, and at some point, perhaps a month after my arrival,

11 someone recognised a group of Muslim civilians who came to the mess

12 buying food for themselves. They came from Dobrinja. As it turned out,

13 it happened to have been a daily occurrence. They came regularly, and

14 they had the possibility of -- come and purchase goods.

15 Immediately adjacent to the barracks there were Muslim families

16 living there who remained throughout the war. Not all of them, of

17 course. Some of them in the meantime wanted to go elsewhere. They went

18 to Sarajevo and elsewhere, be it on their own or in a different way.

19 Some asked for help as well, whereas others left of their own accord.

20 Q. What was your relationship like with those Muslim neighbours?

21 A. As an officer of the JNA, I did not look upon those people in any

22 other way other than their being civilian. I did not distinguish between

23 them and Serbs. They were always safe, even after they were introduced

24 to me. On one such occasion -- well, my brother Cedo was killed on the

25 28th of May, 1993, at Sjemec, near Rogatica. A few days later, since I

Page 34920

1 attended his funeral, I returned. There was a workers' platoon where

2 there were Serbs and local Muslims who took upon themselves to do some

3 jobs like bringing in material to a certain location or to put up a wall.

4 For the most part they didn't have to dig anything, but they would build

5 a wall here and there. And when I toured the working unit, I distributed

6 cigarettes to them since it was a rare commodity, especially for those

7 soldiers who smoked. And since there were Serbs and Muslims there, later

8 on I heard from Vojo Vukotic who was there that Alija Viteskic had a

9 comment to make. He said, "I thought he would kill us all," because he

10 knew I had just attended my brother's funeral. When they saw me, they

11 expected my reaction. However, as it turned out, I simply greeted them

12 and distributed cigarettes.

13 Q. Thank you. Did the Serbs and the Muslims who were not

14 conscripted -- under a work obligation?

15 A. Yes. The Serbs equally as the Muslims were under the work

16 obligation, and it consisted in meeting some of our needs when something

17 was necessary to be done in the barracks, perhaps, for example, to set up

18 curtains or to lay out blankets or camouflage nets or some other curtains

19 that would shield us from sniper fire, because we were shot at by snipers

20 in all areas that were visibly -- that were visible, that were open to

21 view within the barracks. So our main task was to make a good protection

22 that would shield us from reconnaissance, observation, and sniper

23 attacks.

24 Q. Thank you. And did the Muslims have to serve the army, and were

25 they members of the Army of Republika Srpska and on what basis?

Page 34921

1 A. That was a voluntary matter. They were not mobilised. For

2 example, we had a neighbour from the Dedic family - I would rather not

3 mention his first name - who volunteered of his own free will, and up

4 until mid-1993 or so, he was in the Army of Republika Srpska. Later on

5 he expressed a wish to go abroad and he left. And there were those who

6 remained in the Army of Republika Srpska throughout the war, like, for

7 example, one Muric. Once again I would rather not mention his first name

8 if I do not have to.

9 Q. Thank you. Did you have any Croats in the command and in the

10 units?

11 A. Well, in my particular command we did not have a Croat. There

12 was one in the corps, one Solar who used to be an officer there as I

13 remember. As for Croats, there were some Croats among the soldiers, but

14 I could not remember any specific names. I know for sure, however, that

15 there were some of them.

16 Q. Thank you. You came to the 49th Mechanised Brigade. After the

17 withdrawal of the JNA and the establishment of the Army of

18 Republika Srpska and the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, what happened with this

19 unit?

20 A. The 49th Brigade was renamed and it became the 1st Sarajevo

21 Mechanised Brigade. As the troops had been decimated, the unit was now

22 manned by conscripts who had fled Sarajevo and other surrounding places

23 and other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina, from Zenica all the way to Kakanj

24 and other areas from Central Bosnia. The brigade was manned with these

25 people.

Page 34922

1 Q. Thank you. If we call -- when we call up a map, we'll ask you to

2 show us the zone of responsibility.

3 Did you remain in the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade throughout

4 the war, and which duty did you hold?

5 A. Yes, I remained in the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade throughout

6 the war. In the position at the Slavisa Vajner-Cica barracks. That was

7 my micro-location. And my duty was chief of security in the brigade.

8 That was up until around the 10th of May, 1995, when for a short while I

9 was appointed commander of the 4th Battalion in Pale or, rather, in

10 Trebevic, because the battalion was deployed on Mount Trebevic. That was

11 the Pale battalion which then became a part of our brigade and I was

12 immediately appointed commander. I remained in this position from May

13 until October 1995, when I returned once again to the command of the

14 1st Sarajevo Brigade to the position of chief of security.

15 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us briefly how did you move

16 through the service later on? What did you do after the

17 Dayton Agreement?

18 A. After the Dayton Agreement a reorganisation took place. The

19 Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade and the corps were disbanded. There were

20 transfers within the Army of Republika Srpska so that I was transferred

21 with other members of the brigade command to Pale. After that, some of

22 our officers were assigned to the then 7th Corps that was the

23 Hercegovina Corps, and we were sent to the command of the 7th Corps in

24 Trebinje or, rather, Lastva, where the seat of the 7th Corps was

25 situated.

Page 34923

1 Q. Up until when did you serve in the army or, rather, worked in the

2 armed forces? What did you do later?

3 A. I remained in the Army of Republika Srpska up until the end of

4 1996. And then as there was a possibility to state my wish, whether I

5 would remain or not, I said what was on my mind, and I went back to

6 Belgrade to the Yugoslav Army.

7 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us what was your main duty in

8 the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade?

9 A. In the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade, as a security officer, I

10 was the only professional officer. I did not find any other personnel

11 who had been trained to do the work. So first of all, I had to select

12 the staff from the soldiers or reserve officers and see who would work,

13 who would be members of my team. Our main duty was to collect

14 information about the enemy forces and to protect the unit from

15 intelligence or sabotage attempts and, of course, to protect it from an

16 armed attack by enemy forces.

17 Q. Thank you. During your service, did you come in contact with

18 representatives of UNPROFOR and other UN agencies, and what were your

19 relations like?

20 A. Yes. Throughout the war we had contacts UNPROFOR

21 representatives, and as the most senior officer in the -- from the

22 command who was in the barracks, because others from the command were at

23 a different location, I had an obligation to do that. The UNPROFOR

24 officers regularly came to visit me, and they interviewed me about

25 certain issues which were topical at the time. With the implementation

Page 34924

1 of the Dayton Agreement, as part of the OSCE, I was a member of a

2 delegation of officers from the Army of Republika Srpska which, in

3 accordance with this programme, went to the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

4 We made exchanges, exchange visits as they were called at the time,

5 visits, checks. These were mutual checks or controls.

6 Q. Thank you. As for the OSCE which accepted you in this mission,

7 did they run a check of your personality and your conduct during the war?

8 A. Well, we had to receive -- all of us officers who were in this

9 team, we had to have the approval of the government of the Federation of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina and their command, the command of their army. We had

11 to be accepted by them, because obviously they ran checks to see which

12 people they could accept, who was acceptable for them, in other words.

13 So I know that I passed. Otherwise, I couldn't have been a member of the

14 team, and they wouldn't have accepted me.

15 Q. Thank you. In what ways did you collect the information which

16 you used to protect your unit from enemy attacks?

17 A. The soldiers of our unit, the units of our army and the Muslim

18 army were continually in touch from the beginning of the war. Sometimes

19 they even shared rooms in one and the same building. You have a building

20 where there would be a crew from the Muslim army and a crew from the

21 Serbian Army in a different room. So the basic fact was this direct

22 touch.

23 Then there were people leaving Sarajevo all the time. They had

24 been mobilised members of the Muslim army or people who were not members

25 of the army who had been hiding and evading mobilisation and who then

Page 34925

1 defected to our territory. We would interview them and collect

2 information about the deployment, the forces, combat equipment that the

3 Muslim army had at its disposal so that we would know what and whom we

4 were facing and how we could protect ourselves and prepare for our

5 defence.

6 In addition to this, of course, we forwarded the information to

7 the corps security and intelligence organ which, through their

8 interception activities and their own intelligence checks, checked all

9 the information that we forwarded to them. We also exchanged information

10 with the organs of specific units, other brigades of the Army of

11 Republika Srpska, which made up the corps. So we would compare the data,

12 and what would be the use of data or information that was unverified? No

13 one would do anything with such information that was not verified or

14 checked because that would mean nothing. One of the verifications

15 concerned the combat activities that the Muslim forces were carrying out.

16 Then we would check the specific locations, the size of certain

17 formations that were deployed there and so on.

18 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what was the

19 main duty of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and what was its strategy as

20 opposed to the strategy of the 1st Corps of the Muslim army? From the

21 point of view of your brigade and from what you knew.

22 A. Our main task was to protect the positions that we had taken

23 control of, the positions on which we already were. In order to protect

24 the depth of our territory, the rear, where the Serb-populated

25 settlements were located and where the Serbian people lived, because if

Page 34926

1 we had not managed to do that, there would certainly be no guarantees

2 that we would have survived on the left bank of the Drina at all, because

3 the forces of the 1st Corps of the Muslim army which were engaged with

4 us, my brigade and the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps as a whole, continually

5 exerted pressure, carried out combat activities and were moving lines to

6 our damage with the goal to take over these areas and have full control

7 over them as complete masters.

8 If the lines had broken, if they had been broken through, and if

9 our defence had been broken down and if the Muslim army could have

10 advanced as much as it wanted to, then certainly we could not have

11 stopped before reaching the Drina.

12 Q. Thank you. You mentioned to us that you had direct touch with

13 the enemy side throughout the war. Can you tell us about the whole of

14 the corps, as far as you know, what were the forces of the Army of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina that you were engaged with directly?

16 A. As for the potential of the Muslim army, they had huge potential

17 in terms of troops. There were so many people in Sarajevo that they

18 could mobilise. Facing my brigade we had three Muslim brigades. They

19 made a ring around the Muslim-populated part of Sarajevo, and they were

20 facing us. That was the way they were deployed. In addition to these

21 three Muslim brigades which were opposed to us, not counting the numerous

22 forces of the MUP, the Ministry of the Interior and other special forces

23 which were not part of the composition of these brigades but were

24 stationed in the combat deployment of the Muslim forces. They were a

25 part of it.

Page 34927

1 In addition to these three brigades facing my brigade, there were

2 a number of other brigades as well, including the 2nd Mountain Brigade,

3 the 1st and 2nd Motorised Brigades, then the Independent Kosevo

4 Battalion, the 2nd Chivalrous, then the 102nd, later the 105th which was

5 formed, and this is just a part of the brigades.

6 If the Muslims said in their media during the war and especially

7 after the war that they had 120.000 armed combatants in the city, then

8 you can imagine what sort of force that was.

9 Q. Thank you. And as for contact with other corps, can you tell us

10 anything about that? Not your brigade but the corps as a whole.

11 A. You mean the corps including the brigades. The units of the

12 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the contact that they had with other brigades,

13 if I understood you properly.

14 Q. With other corps of the Muslim army.

15 A. Yes, with the Zenica corps in the direction of the Nisici plateau

16 and then with the units of -- which were stationed in Gorazde. So in

17 fact, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was surrounded from the inside and also

18 from the back, if that was what you mean.

19 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us something about the use of artillery

20 of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps? Or, rather, generally, can you tell us

21 about the tactics and the interest of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

22 Actually, in the indictment and in certain statements, claims are made

23 that the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps used artillery indiscriminately against

24 the city and even for the purposes of terror. Can you tell us what the

25 interest and the tactic and the strategy of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

Page 34928

1 was in terms of the city itself?

2 A. From my position that I had, that is to say, what I knew,

3 generally speaking, the use of artillery and shells in a built-up area

4 has no effect. That is just a waste, a squandering of resources, if you

5 will.

6 I know that there were responses to fire, artillery fire that had

7 come in, so artillery fire was responded to by artillery fire against the

8 points from where that artillery fire had come from.

9 Q. Did you have any information about what the 1st Corps had, the

10 1st Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, later on the 12th Division,

11 in the city itself, what kind of firing positions and firing points and

12 potentials they had?

13 A. We did have information, but then, of course, it comes time and

14 again, so from day one there was not a single day when somebody did not

15 leave Sarajevo, especially persons who had been mobilised into the Muslim

16 army. As a matter of fact, we had information about personnel, the names

17 of commanders and others, and quite simply, we could complete personnel

18 files about all these persons. These were in part former JNA officers,

19 so we knew each other from before, and now they held certain positions.

20 They were brigade commanders like Bejic, Lutic [phoen] and others. Also,

21 they had howitzers, long-range guns, mortars from 60, 82, and

22 120 millimetres respectively that were stationed at Hum, Mojmilo. In the

23 combat disposition of these lower calibres or lower-ranking units,

24 multiple-rocket launchers, we suffered fire from these multiple-rocket

25 launchers from Mojmilo. Then anti-armour equipment, Maljutkas, cannons,

Page 34929

1 et cetera. Tanks, they had tanks. Also, tanks were positioned in the

2 area of Hum, in the area of Velesici and other positions.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me. Can I intervene one minute.

5 Mr. Sarenac, a minute ago you told us that the use of artillery

6 and shells has no effect in a built-up area or the -- I would quote

7 exactly what you said.

8 "From my position that I had, that is to say, what I knew,

9 generally speaking, the use of artillery and shells in a built-up area

10 has no effect."

11 Could you expand why it is so and tell us what you exactly meant

12 by a "built-up area"?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes. In buildings, in

14 settlements, because we received so many shells from Mojmilo when our

15 portions were targeted, 82-millimetre mortars, mortar shells. When they

16 fall on roof tiles, it's only the roof tiles that burst, nothing else.

17 Then perhaps a 120-millimetre shell would reach a ceiling. So if those

18 weapons are used, then it is only roofs that break. But one has to be

19 very skilful. It would have to be laser guided so that an artillery

20 shell would fall somewhere into the street or onto a square. That would

21 have to be laser guided, but that was not possible. Given the equipment

22 that existed there, that was not possible with that kind of equipment.

23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Continuing alone the lines of His Excellency Judge Kwon's

Page 34930

1 question, you said that you suffered fire from these firing positions.

2 What is the effect of that? Where were their positions? Did you have

3 any information about that and could you see the fire?

4 A. We had information where the positions was -- positions were, and

5 then when they fired, then this mortar fire would be identified. Also,

6 if it came from long-range equipment, also they needed to have a proper

7 area, like the area of Hum most often and the area from Hum towards

8 Velesici, that part, where it was less populated or unpopulated, where

9 there are forests, meadows, or where there are areas that are sparsely

10 populated.

11 Q. The transcript does not reflect that the Lieutenant-Colonel said

12 that we had information about these positions from the observers as well.

13 A. From observation points, yes.

14 Q. Let us abandon this topic now. Just tell us what the position of

15 the corps command and brigade commands was with regard to firing with

16 heavy-calibre weapons at the city itself, apart from responding to this

17 fire from firing positions, what were the orders and what was the general

18 stance?

19 A. I cannot give a specific answer because I was not kept abreast of

20 this planning. I just know what -- well, I didn't really know about

21 artillery very much either. I just know what its effects are. So I

22 know -- I was not an eyewitness of the targeting of facilities, civilian

23 zones. I don't have knowledge of that kind.

24 Q. Thank you. Did you have knowledge to the effect that such orders

25 were issued or that there were bans?

Page 34931

1 A. Veljko Stojanovic, my commander, was an excellent officer, very

2 strict. I know him directly as brigade commander and he prohibited the

3 opening of fire even from small arms apart from the command in any way,

4 especially not to open fire from artillery weapons. And we mainly had

5 mortars for immediate support and so on.

6 Q. The transcript did not say where artillery fire should be opened.

7 My command, you say, did not allow the opening artillery fire against?

8 A. Without an order, without an order. Without an exclusive order

9 from the brigade command.

10 Q. Thank you. The brigade command or some superior command, did it

11 ever issue an order to fire at civilian buildings or was anyone allowed

12 that possibility?

13 A. I am not aware of such orders that -- or I'm not aware that fire

14 was opened at such targets.

15 Q. Thank you. Could you now show us on the map - 1D7849, could that

16 be called up, please? - could you mark the area of responsibility of your

17 brigade on this map, and then could you explain to us what it is that is

18 marked on this map and who marked that and what that depicts? 1D7849.

19 While we're waiting, Colonel, can you tell us what this

20 conversation with persons who fled from Sarajevo included?

21 A. Well, first they were interviewed about the motive, why they

22 left. Also, what their status was in Sarajevo at that moment, whether

23 they had been mobilised or not. Also family details and the situation in

24 town, the situation of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina or, rather, the

25 situation in the units of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina that they had

Page 34932

1 been mobilised into if they had been mobilised. Also their knowledge

2 about the deployment of combat resources, technical equipment, the

3 disposition of units, personnel, who was on the command of various units,

4 the situation in Sarajevo, the conditions, the livings conditions, the

5 attitude towards Serbs, because already in the beginning of the war, a

6 discriminatory attitude was taken against the Serbs. It was sufficient

7 to find a mirror in a Serb's apartment when such an apartment would be

8 searched, and then this person would be accused of signalling the Serbs

9 when it is that they can open fire and so on. And so on and so forth.

10 When such information was received about the enemy forces and

11 their disposition, this was compared to what was already known, and then

12 it was checked through the corps and their organs, and there was an

13 exchange of information with other commands, brigades of the corps.

14 Q. Thank you. How accurate were these statements when you

15 cross-referenced them with other information? How correct was this

16 information that was received during these interviews?

17 A. From the beginning of 1992 onwards, I -- I had the opportunity,

18 actually, in the beginning of last year, to obtain a number of documents

19 that we worked on and it turned out that the successive documents relied

20 on the basic information that we had first received. It was only the

21 personnel details about persons who were members of the command or who

22 were deployed elsewhere in a unit. Sniper shooters were identified in

23 1992, and these sniper shooters were known as individuals throughout the

24 war. They stayed on, and they operated the very same way in 1992, 1994,

25 and so on.

Page 34933

1 Q. Thank you. Did you exchange information with state security as

2 well and --

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters not hear the rest of the

4 sentence.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is a fact that we were linked to

6 the state security, so at the same time they received copies of our

7 findings and our notes about the deployment of enemy forces. From them

8 we also received information about the deployment of enemy forces that

9 they had received.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Thank you. While we're waiting for the map to be uploaded, can

12 you tell us what the ethnic background was of the persons who fled to the

13 Serb side in the area of responsibility of your brigade?

14 A. Well, most of them were Serb civilians and soldiers who had been

15 mobilised. Then next in terms of numbers were Croats and then Muslims.

16 That is to say, it wasn't that many Muslims who fled, but there were

17 some. There were tens of them who defected as members of the Muslim army

18 and came to our territory.

19 Q. Thank you. What was the procedure involved with these defectors

20 of Croat and Muslim ethnic backgrounds, both civilians and soldiers?

21 A. Since -- after the interview would be carried out, after their

22 details would be taken, they would stay on certain premises with our own

23 soldiers. They were there so that they would resolve their status,

24 because Croats in particular immediately wanted to go to Croatia, and

25 they sought that possibility, to have transit to take the shortest route

Page 34934

1 to Croatia. Muslims individually wanted to go abroad, whereas others

2 towards the end of the war in particular returned to Sarajevo.

3 Q. Thank you. What about those who returned to Sarajevo towards the

4 end of the war? How long did they stay with you?

5 A. Well, perhaps up to 30 days. As things were being cleared up and

6 the end of it all seemed near, they probably changed their minds.

7 Although they had originally intended to go abroad, they returned, and

8 there was no special procedure applied on our side to allow their return.

9 Q. Thank you. Were civilians and soldiers treated in the same way?

10 In other words, did you treat soldiers as POWs?

11 A. In my unit I did not have any POWs, nor did we treat these people

12 as POWs. They could move about freely inside the barracks perimeter as

13 our soldiers could. We all ate the same food, starting with the officers

14 down to the soldiers and these people as well.

15 As regards this topic, I recall an interesting detail. Their

16 documents were deposited with me in my office, and a fortnight later, two

17 Muslims came to see me, saying that in their notebook there was a note of

18 100 German marks. I was quite embarrassed or put in an uneasy situation,

19 because other people from my team could access those documents, and I

20 thought that someone could be tempted, if they found it, to take it.

21 However, when we went through their notepads, we indeed found the

22 100 German marks, and it was worth more than anything I did previously,

23 because things turned out that way.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know what's going on with

25 e-court. Can I ask for --

Page 34935

1 JUDGE KWON: I would advise you to move on to another topic. I'm

2 told that the size of the file is too big, so it's very difficult to

3 upload it. I saw it emerging, but it does not appear on our monitor.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I ask then that the map be

5 placed on the ELMO and we could ask Lieutenant-Colonel Sarenac to tell us

6 what is indicated and perhaps make additional indications based on his

7 knowledge from the documents.

8 JUDGE KWON: Can we do this exercise with -- with a somewhat more

9 compressed one which can be offered by the Prosecution or the already

10 existing map?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If the Prosecution would be so kind

12 as to assist, it would be very nice. We asked for their assistance when

13 we were scanning documents, but none was received.

14 JUDGE KWON: By the way, but I noticed there are already some

15 marks made by the witness.

16 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, the witness has marked on this

17 map. But it's -- each of us seem to be able to have it on our own

18 e-courts, so I don't know, maybe if we could use the ELMO for his

19 purposes, the rest of us can follow either with both the ELMO and on our

20 own e-court.

21 JUDGE KWON: The problem is that I cannot turn it around --

22 MR. ROBINSON: I was trying -- I was trying to do that myself

23 but --

24 JUDGE KWON: -- but it's just not moving. But do you have it in

25 hard copy, the marked map? Why don't you go on with it so we can -- why

Page 34936

1 don't you show it to the Prosecution first and let's put it on the ELMO.

2 Any observation, Ms. Edgerton?

3 MS. EDGERTON: If I can just have a look at this, and just for

4 the record, the request about scanning documents was whether or not we

5 had an A1 scanner and we don't.

6 JUDGE KWON: A1.

7 [Prosecution counsel confer]

8 MS. EDGERTON: I see things on this map that weren't visible when

9 we were looking at the image yesterday, and they tend to be pencil marks.

10 And I may have some comment or objections as we move on with respect to

11 the map, but I don't see why we couldn't just see how it plays out for

12 now, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Very well. Let's put it on the ELMO.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be assisted by

15 raising the map so as to see the lower part and the area of

16 responsibility. So it shouldn't go up but down.

17 [In English] Could it be lifted little bit more. More, please,

18 to see the line, the [overlapping speakers] ...

19 JUDGE KWON: No, once we place it, we can -- we could play with

20 the machine. But let's continue, yes.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, can you tell us what we can see in this part

23 of the map regarding the area of responsibility of your brigade and the

24 confrontation line?

25 A. I'd like to start from one end of the map, from the beginning to

Page 34937

1 the left. There you can see the positions of the 15th Mountain -- or

2 Motorised Brigade as it was called later. It used to be the

3 10th Brigade. It used to be commanded by Musan Topalovic Caco. Its AOR

4 stretched from Lapisnica, where their adjacent unit was the 2nd Mountain

5 Brigade, via Colina Kapa, Zlatiste, Vrbanja, the Jewish Cemetery, and

6 Borak.

7 Next, the 101st Motorised Brigade, being one of the strongest

8 motorised brigades, that part where the two units met was in the central

9 part --

10 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me, Mr. Sarenac. Can we do this after the

11 lunch break so that the Judges could have a copy of that map, and then we

12 can put the map on the panel and the witness could explain a bit more

13 easily.

14 MS. EDGERTON: And --

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I think so.

16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

17 MS. EDGERTON: And Mr. Reid will be able to do his technological

18 magic and come up with what you had asked for in a few more seconds as

19 well.

20 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

21 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, I think this is the last area that

22 we intended to cover with this witness, so perhaps we could take our

23 lunch break early and come back.

24 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's do that. Shall we resume at 1.00?

25 Very well. We'll have a break.

Page 34938

1 --- Recess taken at 12.12 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 JUDGE KWON: I was told that now the map is on the e-court, and

6 we have it as well on the easel.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Excellency.

8 Could we zoom in on the part covered by the southern marked line, the

9 southern part of town and the area of responsibility along the line.

10 That's good. I think it's enough.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, who drew the confrontation line?

13 A. I did. And I put in the symbols.

14 Q. Do not touch the screen, please. You will be provided

15 instructions. Do not touch the screen unless you are intending to make a

16 marking. Thank you.

17 Can you tell us on what basis did you mark the confrontation line

18 and the deployment of pieces in your AOR?

19 A. Based on the information I had. I spent a number of years along

20 that line, and it all remains vividly in my memory. I've also reminded

21 myself only recently of it. That is why I was able to reconstruct the

22 position of these elements. Perhaps I was off by a couple of dozen

23 metres, but this is what it was like.

24 Q. Thank you. We have the key which you drafted, and it was sent by

25 e-mail to the participants. Perhaps we'll also need to put the key in

Page 34939

1 hard copy on the ELMO because it contains all the symbols. Is this an

2 extensive map, a comprehensive one, or did you only mark the bare

3 minimum?

4 A. Of course it is not exhaustive because the size is small and

5 there were many symbols to be marked. This is just a portion of the

6 assets. However, the areas of respective units are complete. Any data

7 on combat assets and workshops for the manufacturing of weapons are only

8 designated partially.

9 Q. Thank you. Can you indicate a workshop or manufacturer of

10 weapons? Didn't you mark it with a T?

11 A. Yes. There's a T in a square. It means workshop or factory. It

12 is in Pofalici in Velesici.

13 Q. That's the one -- or what is marked by the flags?

14 A. Seats of commands and staffs. This is Cengic Vila, and the

15 construction company Vranica where the Main Staff was headquartered.

16 Here in Svrakino Selo, that is the Victor Bubanj barracks. It was the

17 headquarters of the 105th Motorised Brigade.

18 Q. Thank you. Colonel, sir, did you wish to add anything -- or,

19 sorry, first of all, did you indicate the weapons, staffs, and firing

20 positions in the AORs of other brigades of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

21 A. Yes, the part up there to Velesici and to the north. However, it

22 is all relative as it is a small area. They could equally engage our

23 positions too, but they belonged to the 1st Motorised Brigade and its

24 command was in Buca Potok. However, its assets were in Hum. They had

25 howitzers, mortars, tanks, and other assets.

Page 34940

1 Q. Thank you. Are you trying to say that the forces on one side of

2 Sarajevo supported their own forces across town on the other side?

3 A. Yes. I also indicated Strela, which is a missile. They also had

4 tri-barrelled guns. They had weapons mounted on trucks such as mortars,

5 anti-aircraft guns.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think we can remove the key now.

7 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Mr. Sarenac, you seem to have

8 forgotten the advice Mr. Karadzic gave you. Please put a pause between

9 the question and answer. Please wait until the interpretation is

10 completed before you start giving evidence.

11 Can we see the second page of English?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is part of the key.

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes. If you could tell us, which you will see in a

14 minute, what LAS, OBL, VP means. You said they are special military

15 units.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Were you asking me?

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are special military units.

19 There's Lasta, for example. That's the military police. Then the unit

20 which protected facilities and persons. It was dislocated since they

21 were numerous. There were also signs to combat dispositions of other

22 units for reinforcement.

23 JUDGE KWON: Yes. What is an LAS? Or LAS? I can understand VP

24 means military police.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 34941

1 Q. On the next page, Lieutenant-Colonel. You can have a hard copy.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we provide it to the witness?

3 JUDGE KWON: We can collapse the map if necessary. Dr. Karadzic

4 said he's over with this map.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not over. I'm not done.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. On page 2 it says "LAS" in a circle?

8 A. Lasta. It is the acronym for the Lasta special unit.

9 JUDGE KWON: And next one?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Headed by Vikic.

11 JUDGE KWON: And next one, OBL?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is the unit for protection of

13 buildings and persons.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. Karadzic, would you like to keep

15 that red markings on this map?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Your Excellency. I would

17 kindly ask the Lieutenant-Colonel to mark anything in addition he may

18 have wanted to. So perhaps we can remove the key from the screen so as

19 to have the entire map.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, is there anything else you would wanted to --

22 A. Yes, I'm just now looking at it but nothing comes to mind right

23 now. I can't see it all too well. Yes, there's nothing. The basic

24 things I wanted to are there. There are some things that are not here.

25 For example, I wrote a T in Alipasino Polje which is the wire factory.

Page 34942

1 That's where weapons were produced. First I used a normal pencil, and I

2 left those markings in pencil, and then later on I wrote in pen over it.

3 That is why occasionally you will see some pencil markings with numbers

4 or letters belonging to particular units. That's why you have the pencil

5 markings. I didn't even realise it was left.

6 Q. Thank you. Can you put a circle around the T and place a number

7 so that we have it in the transcript as to what exactly it means.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Just place a 1 next to it, a red 1.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. What does it depict?

12 A. The factory where mortar shells were being produced as well as

13 shells for other assets. It's a factory where they put the charge in.

14 Q. Thank you. Is there anything else that you wanted to mark in

15 red? Was there anything in Pofalici where they carried out refurbishment

16 of assets?

17 A. There was one in Pofalici, in Velesici.

18 MS. EDGERTON: Well, Dr. Karadzic has suggested the answer to the

19 witness quite clearly.

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have documents. We can bring

22 them up if necessary, documents that this witness drafted, statements.

23 JUDGE KWON: It's a separate matter, Mr. Karadzic.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 34943

1 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, kindly feel free to make any markings or put

2 in numbers telling us what they are. Of course, provided you know for

3 certain that they were there within your AOR, in terms of weapons,

4 pieces, units, anything you deem necessary. Just place a number and tell

5 us what it is. You don't need to put in any symbols --

6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I don't see any point. If we zoom out

7 we can see the T marking marked by this witness which seems to be a

8 factory. So there's no point of asking him now to mark it again while

9 he's not able to see it clearly now.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Excellency, however

11 I'm not asking him to repeat but to make new markings for things he

12 hasn't marked thus far.

13 JUDGE KWON: Forget the current marking. Why don't we zoom in

14 further. Let's show the witness the T mark which he made probably by

15 pencil. Zoom in further. Do you see the T mark you made? So that's the

16 factory you referred to, Mr. Sarenac?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. The wire factory.

18 That's it.

19 JUDGE KWON: So we admit it. We can admit it as it is now, the

20 map marked by this witness.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour, but it's

22 not a full map. The witness said that there were quite a few things that

23 he did not mark within his AOR plus the other AORs, but this suffices in

24 terms of this witness.

25 JUDGE KWON: Very well. If you'd like the witness to mark

Page 34944

1 further places, we need to admit this one and then you can ask to make

2 more markings and we admit it separately.

3 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

4 MS. EDGERTON: And I'd actually just like on the record that I do

5 challenge the accuracy of the markings on the map, particularly because

6 I'm not clear whether we're proceeding on the basis of the witness's

7 recollection or on the basis of his memory refreshed by documents that we

8 questioned earlier on in these proceedings.

9 JUDGE KWON: Probably that may be the area you can take up in

10 your cross-examination.

11 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.

12 JUDGE KWON: So shall we give the number for this map.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that's 65 ter number 24723 which is

14 Exhibit D3091.

15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But that number applies to the

17 whole of the map, not just this section of it. Very well. Can we have

18 the entire map back, please, and zoom in.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, based on the documents you had and your

21 knowledge, is there anything else within your brigade AOR that you would

22 like to mark now? Just place, for example, the number 2 and tell us what

23 it is and go on.

24 A. Well, at this point I'm really not concentrated enough to add

25 anything, save for what I can see that is still in pencil. There is Hum

Page 34945

1 where a howitzer position was as well as rocket position. That is marked

2 already. There, there was the command of the 2nd Mountain Brigade.

3 There's nothing else right now. I'm not focused enough. I can't add

4 anything.

5 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant-Colonel. We will not use the map anymore,

6 then, in that case.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Will the key be put under the same

8 number as the map.

9 JUDGE KWON: It was presented as the English translation. Do you

10 have any objection to that matter, Ms. Edgerton?

11 MS. EDGERTON: No.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, did you have information, verified

14 information, about the conduct of the units of the 1st Corps in the town

15 itself regarding their own civilians and facilities?

16 A. Through gathering -- the gathering of intelligence about units

17 and their activities, we also learned that in certain cases they shelled

18 certain facilities in order to have it portrayed as if the Serb forces

19 had done it. One of --

20 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, it looks like a new area that we

21 actually have no notice for, wasn't in the previous statement, and hasn't

22 been received.

23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Paragraph 32. Paragraph 32.

25 JUDGE KWON: Well, we'll see. Please proceed.

Page 34946

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And 33 also. If the witness could

2 please be allowed to continue and to complete his answer.

3 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We received information, there were

5 even some instances because they made some makeshift shells and weapons

6 that were not tested, and it happened that they targeted our positions

7 but as the projectiles were unsuccessful, it happened that they fell on

8 their own facilities, so accidentally it sometimes happened that their

9 projectiles exploded on their positions or in the civilian-populated

10 zones.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Thank you. In addition to these accidental shots at their own

13 territory because the weaponry didn't work properly, were there any

14 deliberate attempts to do that in order to accuse the Serbs?

15 A. Instances of shelling have been commented a lot. I mean,

16 shelling people who were queueing for bread or standing in line to get

17 water in Vase Miskina Street and later on at Markale. People on the

18 ground were convinced at first that it was certainly not the Serbian

19 forces that had done that, and in my view, it was only logical because

20 this took place in a small space, small tight areas. For a mortar or

21 artillery shell to reach such a position, it would have to be laser

22 guided to hit such a spot. So -- and we also came by information, which

23 I cannot cite now because I don't have them, that there were some

24 deaths --

25 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I think you have answered the

Page 34947

1 question.

2 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

3 MS. EDGERTON: That's also a completely new area, Your Honour,

4 and I may want to cross-examine on this new area related to the specific

5 incidents.

6 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, in paragraph 33 of the statement it

7 says:

8 "In order to involve the international community as a side in the

9 conflict, the Muslim forces fired at civilian zones in order to accuse

10 the Serbian side of having committed crimes."

11 So I don't see what's new about that. This is falling directly

12 within that topic.

13 JUDGE KWON: Let's proceed.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please see in e-court

15 1D28734.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, I will ask you to show us in this example how

18 you worked and how you obtained intelligence. Can you please tell us

19 what we see here.

20 A. We see an official note dated the 4th of March, 1995, as I can

21 see. Yes. Yes. This is about --

22 Q. Can you please have a look at the names down here in the first

23 paragraph, can you please read out the names for us?

24 A. Yes. Of the names listed here, Rato Raseta, Faik Ibrahimagic,

25 and Mithat Krivosic were killed in 1993 during the Bajram holiday because

Page 34948

1 of an explosion of a shell in the yard of the Orthodox church near the

2 Bristol Hotel. Officially they said that the shell came from Lukavica,

3 but according to Kostic's claim, it's 100 per cent certain that it came

4 from the direction of the centre of the city and that Muslims had fired

5 it in the direction of Grbavica and that it had dropped early and fallen

6 on their territory.

7 Q. Thank you. How does that fit with other information that you had

8 about this? Would this be an exception or how does it fit with the other

9 information you had?

10 A. Of course it wasn't an exception. We had a lot of information

11 not only about shells but also about sniper fire fired by Muslims within

12 the city. They would -- shot at people from snipers, especially women in

13 mourning were their targets, because the women of Serbian ethnicity who

14 are mourning someone are wearing black clothes, and therefore they were

15 clear targets. There were also squarings of accounts among them. If

16 they were rivals, they would use this to eliminate those who were against

17 them so they would no longer be bothered by them.

18 Q. As for this Radovan Uljarevic, can you tell us who that was and

19 who was Kostic?

20 A. Radovan Uljarevic was an officer from my security organ, and

21 Kostic was a defector. He had fled the Muslim territory.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this be admitted?

24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3092, Your Honours.

Page 34949

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, after the incidents for which the Serbs were

3 blamed, did you run any checks in your brigade in the Sarajevo-Romanija

4 Corps? Did you check the allegations of such accusations, and if so,

5 how?

6 A. Well, we would examine whether any fire was launched from our

7 positions through commanders including the battalion commanders who were

8 at the front line. And we knew ourselves, because the commands, both the

9 corps command and the brigade commands were perhaps 200 to 500 metres at

10 the most from the front line. So the commands could directly monitor the

11 fire. They were not very far away.

12 One of the cases in which we ran a check, we had complaints from

13 UNPROFOR that a French UNPROFOR soldier had been killed at an observation

14 point located at the Jewish Cemetery. UNPROFOR officers arrived first to

15 lodge a protest, and then they requested that we should tour our

16 positions together with them, and I was assigned to go to this tour. The

17 French soldier was killed at the Jewish Cemetery which is uphill from our

18 positions and it was not visible. There are obstructions. Simply, our

19 positions were downhill from there so they could see for themselves that

20 it was not possible that he was killed by our sniper fire, but, rather,

21 certainly by Muslim sniper fire. That was one of the incidents.

22 Q. Thank you. Lieutenant-Colonel, sir, thank you.

23 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, I have no further questions.

24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

25 MS. EDGERTON: Could I just have your indulgence for a moment,

Page 34951

1 JUDGE KWON: That's unfortunate. I will consult my colleagues.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE KWON: Very well, Ms. Edgerton. We'll see how far you

4 could go and see what -- what we can do afterwards.

5 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, and my apologies. It was in light of new

6 information that came later on today.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I said how far you could go. Yes, please

8 continue.

9 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

10 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

11 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, do you hear me in a language you understand?

12 A. Yes. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Just one thing I'd like to deal with that you

14 mentioned in your evidence to Dr. Karadzic earlier today. You said that

15 between -- from May to October 1995, you had become -- or were appointed

16 the commander of the 4th Battalion of your brigade, the 1st Sarajevo

17 Motorised Brigade. Do you remember that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you describe to us your battalion's area of responsibility

20 throughout that period?

21 A. The zone of responsibility of the battalion which I commanded

22 between May and October 1995 extended from Lapisnica -- or, rather, the

23 quarry close to Kozija Cuprija, Lapisnica. Then Trebevic where the

24 funicular was and where some of the Olympic facilities were, such as the

25 sled run and so on. Through Zvjezdarnica on Trebevic, all the way to the

Page 34952

1 point where we linked up with the 2nd Battalion of my brigade and that

2 was in the Zlatiste sector on Mount Trebevic.

3 Q. All right. Perhaps we could look at a cutout from a map, given

4 the description you've just given us.

5 MS. EDGERTON: And it's 65 ter number 08191J. It's a cutout,

6 Your Honours, from P848. And of course we only need one version, and

7 could you zoom in on it. All right.

8 Q. Now, you see, Lieutenant-Colonel, the designation on the far

9 right-hand corner of this map cutout in Cyrillic preceded by the

10 number 4. Could you tell us what that abbreviation means?

11 A. This is the 4th Sarajevo Light Infantry Brigade.

12 Q. All right. Now, if you look, Lieutenant-Colonel, at the -- the

13 lines between the 1st Brigade and this 4th Brigade, does that roughly

14 correspond with your area of responsibility as you've just described to

15 us.

16 A. Well, this 4th Battalion which I've just identified was part of

17 the composition of the brigade but it is not depicted here in such a way

18 that I could connect it properly. Could we please zoom in a little bit

19 into this area where the 4th is so that I can see the area. As it is now

20 I cannot identify it.

21 MS. EDGERTON: If we could just zoom in a little bit more. I

22 think the Lieutenant-Colonel wants to see if he can recognise place names

23 and they're a bit illegible. And if you could scroll this zoom over so

24 that it heads to the western part of Sarajevo. And then could you scroll

25 it.

Page 34953

1 Q. If this is okay with you, Lieutenant-Colonel, could you scroll it

2 up so we see the northern area exposed. Do you recognise your

3 battalion's area of responsibility, Lieutenant-Colonel, and if not, we'll

4 move on?

5 A. No. This was not my battalion's zone, no.

6 Q. All right. Thank you. We'll just move on. Now, just to clarify

7 one more thing, is it correct that you were based at Lukavica throughout

8 the conflict, Lieutenant-Colonel?

9 A. Yes. I was deployed in Lukavica throughout the conflict except

10 for this one period, but that was under the command of the same brigade

11 because I was the battalion commander then.

12 Q. In fact, you -- it seems like you exercised an additional

13 function at Lukavica at least for a period. You were also barracks

14 commander, weren't you?

15 A. One could say so. I said that recently. I said that as the most

16 senior officer in the barracks, I was responsible for law and order under

17 the wartime conditions, and that included construction repairs because of

18 damage caused by shelling, and I had to organise these repairs as well.

19 But this was no special function. In addition to that, I had nothing

20 special to do, nor did I have any obligation to organise work and so on

21 and so forth.

22 Q. As senior -- the most senior officer in the barracks, were you

23 responsible for monitoring movement in and out of the compound?

24 A. Yes, certainly, I was responsible for that.

25 Q. So given that, you would be able to confirm an event on

Page 34954

1 22nd June 1992, the arrival of almost 300 detainees from Hadzici who were

2 bused to the Cica barracks on that day?

3 A. Yes. Yes. That was what happened. I was ordered to prepare

4 space for them and to secure them. Practically I had no other contact

5 with them. I engaged my police to accommodate these people on the

6 premises of buildings in the barracks. They were accommodated on one of

7 the floors in rooms where soldiers had been saying previously. As far as

8 I remember, they stayed there perhaps only for one night. I'm not sure

9 if they stayed any longer.

10 In the same manner they came for them and took them away, and I

11 had no authority over them, nor did I have any other obligations

12 concerning them than to accommodate them there and secure them.

13 Q. And could you just tell us, based on your knowledge, who brought

14 them, if you recall, and who took them away?

15 A. As far as I remember, and I cannot be completely sure anymore,

16 they came escorted by the civilian police who secured them. They were

17 handed over to us. Certainly it was not military security but civilian

18 security. They delivered them to us, we accommodated them, but as I told

19 you, I think that on the following day immediately they had gone. They

20 left. They just spent the night there and then they were transported

21 away, but I cannot remember now who were the persons. I just remember

22 the event.

23 Q. Would you be in a position to remember from which opstina, which

24 municipality, these civilian police authorities had come from?

25 A. I don't know, believe me. At the time, I was still a newcomer.

Page 34955

1 It had only been a month, and I didn't really know anybody there yet, but

2 I just know that these people from Hadzici were there, from the area of

3 Hadzici. That's what I was told.

4 Q. All right. Thank you. And now actually I would like to go over

5 to -- or return to the map that we had discussed earlier, that you

6 discussed earlier in your examination-in-chief with Dr. Karadzic, and I

7 just have to remind myself of the exhibit number. Your indulgence for a

8 moment.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3091, Ms. Edgerton.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. If we could have D3092 up on the screen,

11 please.

12 Q. And before getting into some detail about the map, I'd just like

13 to ask you one question. You said in your evidence that you had reminded

14 yourself recently on the state of affairs as it was during the conflict.

15 And could you tell us how you reminded yourself?

16 A. I reminded myself because I got hold of documents. I had

17 documents before me. That's what jogged my memory. I had forgotten all

18 of it. It's been 20 years. Of course, when that happened, I asked a

19 certain institution for access to these documents, because how useful

20 would my testimony here be if I were trying to remember and if I were

21 guessing.

22 Q. And the institution that you asked for access to these documents,

23 was that the RS state archive in Banja Luka?

24 A. Yes. Yes, the state archive.

25 Q. Now, did you go get those documents yourself or did someone go

Page 34956

1 collect them for you?

2 A. No, I did not go myself.

3 Q. And who went to go and collect the documents for you?

4 A. From the Defence team. Savcic.

5 Q. Do you remember this Mr. Savcic's first name?

6 A. I can only guess now. Was it Milomir? I don't know. I cannot

7 remember. I didn't know him personally up until a year ago.

8 Q. All right. Now, did you tell this Mr. Savcic where in the

9 archives to go and look?

10 A. Well, I didn't know in which section it was. Anyway, I assumed

11 that it was supposed to be there. I asked, because I don't have the

12 material resources to go to Banja Luka. It's far away from me. So he

13 looked it up there. Now, where, how, I really don't know that.

14 Q. All right. So you didn't tell him what to go and look for

15 either, did you?

16 A. Well, of course, I said to him the documents that have to do with

17 my activity, the documents that I worked on, if they do exist there.

18 Q. And were those the documents that you had a look at after you

19 arrived here at The Hague?

20 A. Well, these were documents -- these were part of the documents.

21 However, there are more documents. However, these are part of the

22 documents that exist, so simply the documents that were made available.

23 Q. And those didn't only come from the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised

24 Brigade, did they?

25 A. Well, not the ones I saw, but perhaps that's not even 5 per cent

Page 34957

1 that weren't from there, but these were important documents that came

2 from the intelligence organ of the Main Staff and from the intelligence

3 organ of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and also from state security. And I

4 mean the security officers of other brigades, like the Ilidza Brigade,

5 the Vogosca Brigade, and I mean the centre of public security that also

6 dealt with this subject matter and investigated, gave information about

7 the combat disposition of the Muslim forces, their combat equipment and

8 activities, and certain persons who were identified as sniper shooters or

9 persons who had committed other crimes.

10 Q. And in all those documents that you reviewed, you didn't see a

11 single one where you were actually the operative who was recording the

12 interview, did you?

13 A. Well, yes. There are several documents here that I authored. I

14 interviewed persons -- or in the case when I did not interview persons, I

15 then wrote up information on the basis of the interviews conducted by my

16 operatives and the notes taken by them.

17 Q. And that's exactly the extent of the documents that you yourself

18 authored, Lieutenant-Colonel, isn't it? That was -- those were the

19 documents where you did not interview the persons, but you wrote up the

20 information on the basis of interviews conducted by your operatives;

21 correct?

22 A. Well, there is less information of that kind, that I compiled

23 that way. Most of this consists of my notes that I personally wrote up

24 on the basis of my own interviews with the persons who had come over. My

25 experience with these persons who came over, first I would talk to them

Page 34958

1 briefly, and then I would send such a person to an operative who would

2 interview him. And then, of course, after that, after the note was

3 written up and after the report was written up by the person who had

4 fled, then I got the most basic information out and compiled an analysis.

5 So I dealt with this analytically, what we did know already, what we did

6 not know, what is being confirmed or not. That was the aim of this

7 information, to see what is confirmed and what is not. So that this

8 information would go in the briefest form possible to the command of the

9 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps or, rather, the intelligence organ, intelligence

10 and security organ who would then, on the basis of that, take appropriate

11 measures, reconnaissance, interception, et cetera.

12 Q. All right. We'll come back to that because now we have the map

13 in front of us, and I want to ask you a couple of specific questions

14 about this map. But so that you're better able to deal with my

15 questions --

16 MS. EDGERTON: I wonder if we could have a zoom in on the area of

17 Dobrinja, so that's just north of the airport on this map. Great. Thank

18 you.

19 Q. Now I see you marked confrontation lines on -- in this area, in

20 Dobrinja. So what actually did you base those markings that you've made

21 here on?

22 A. These lines, well, on the basis of information previously known

23 and information that is contained in our documents, on the basis of which

24 I compiled my entire statement and so on. Here, in Dobrinja, of course,

25 I did not have the opportunity, I did not have the resources to clearly

Page 34959

1 delineate this laser sharp. This is, I mean, a schematic that is

2 supposed to show the positions. I cannot claim that I exactly went

3 through this building here. That is -- I mean, otherwise, if somebody

4 were to ask me now, I could not say, well, it's not that way, it's

5 200 metres here, or 200 metres there, or 500 metres there. This is not a

6 topographic map where they have these precise elements and so on, and

7 it's not that I can orient myself that way. So this is a city map, and

8 on the basis of that, I could do that. I mean, I was compelled to do it

9 that way because, in a way, it was acceptable to the degree it can be

10 acceptable and I think it is acceptable that is what the disposition was.

11 Q. Well -- so you drew this line then, as I understand what you're

12 saying, based on information that was previously known and information

13 that's contained in your documents, and you've already given evidence

14 that you checked that information that was contained in the documents.

15 You checked that information for accuracy. Do you remember that?

16 A. Of course I checked. Of course. And what I was sure of, I

17 presented here.

18 Q. All right. Could we -- I'd like to show you, actually, another

19 cutout from a map of Dobrinja. It's 65 ter number 09390C, page 16, and

20 it's a cutout from P00815, and it depicts the confrontation lines between

21 your forces and 1st Corps forces as of 1995.

22 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment, please.

23 I've just asked Mr. Reid to do something that would help the

24 Lieutenant-Colonel answer the next question that I'm going to ask him.

25 If I could have your indulgence, he says it would take him one second to

Page 34960

1 do. No, a couple of minutes, so we'll move on.

2 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, the front lines as shown in this area of

3 Dobrinja are actually 500 metres further south-east than what you drew

4 them. It seems like the information you were relying on was actually

5 incorrect, doesn't it?

6 A. If you allow me, as far as I can see the line here, likewise.

7 I'm sure that the line did not extend this way. Who made this? Well,

8 I'd put that question to the person who made this line, because this is

9 not the way the line went. You can see that almost all of Dobrinja was

10 held by the forces of the 1st Corps but that was not actually the case.

11 It's just part of the buildings here. Our forces were deeper in the

12 neighbourhood of Dobrinja here. I see Bijelo Polje as well, that that is

13 being included. However, Bijelo Polje has to be -- I mean, rather, the

14 line has to be further to the east. So this map is -- well, I understand

15 it's -- I mean, in order to find your way and to be able to talk on this

16 basis, I just see that this map does not reflect the actual state of

17 affairs.

18 Q. Now, still on the subject of Dobrinja, we will go to another map,

19 and it's P01739, and it's a map, General -- Lieutenant-Colonel, which

20 depicts the locations of a number of shelling and sniping incidents in

21 the area.

22 MS. EDGERTON: There shouldn't be any problem with the size of

23 this one. That's page number 10 in the Prosecution's Sarajevo map book.

24 Q. Now, Lieutenant-Colonel, if you have a look at the map in front

25 of you, you see -- you can see the same area that you sketched the front

Page 34961

1 line on in your map that you prepared yesterday afternoon. The dot, the

2 green dot that you see here that's number 4, Lieutenant-Colonel, is the

3 scene of the incident where the football game shelling took place that

4 you referred to in your testimony earlier today.

5 Lieutenant-Colonel, if the map that you drew is accurate, that

6 shelling incident would have taken place in Bosnian Serb-held territory.

7 Do you still stand by the marked map that you made?

8 A. I do apologise. I cannot see this number 4, the dot that is

9 number 4. In red I see 3, 6, and 7.

10 Q. Number 4 is in green. And it's immediately to the right of

11 number 6.

12 A. Yes. I see the number 4 now, but the colour is different. It's

13 dark. I told you a moment ago, when I did my drawing, I didn't have

14 precise information. Well, perhaps in respect of the building but I did

15 not have precise information. This just served as -- I mean, it is a

16 fact as far as the zones of responsibility are concerned, the boundaries

17 of one brigade and another brigade in depth, in depth. Now, it is only

18 natural after 20 years that I cannot find it in my memory exactly,

19 because this was an interrupted line, and we shared certain buildings,

20 Muslim crews and Serb crews, and there was not a line of that kind. So I

21 allow for that what you've said. I'm not claiming that I drew a straight

22 line as far as the depth is concerned. However, as far as the direction

23 is concerned and the brigade existing there, it did.

24 Q. All right. Thank you. If we could go back to the map you

25 marked, P3092, I'd like to look at another area.