130801IT

Page 42384

1 Thursday, 1 August 2013

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness takes the stand]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.

7 Yes, Mr. Robinson.

8 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, good morning, Mr. President. I'd like to

9 introduce David Taylor of Manchester, United Kingdom, who is working as

10 an intern for us this year.

11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

12 Mr. Mitchell, please continue.

13 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President. I understand I have

14 about an hour left. I'll do my best to conclude in that time, but I may

15 need a little extra. I'll let you know where I'm at when the hour is up.

16 WITNESS: FRANC KOS [Resumed]

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Mitchell: [Continued]

19 Q. Now, Mr. Kos, yesterday we left off and I was asking you some

20 questions about your interview with the Slovenian investigator.

21 MR. MITCHELL: If we can have that in e-court again,

22 65 ter 25487, page 2 in the English and 3 in the Slovenian.

23 Q. Now, if you just focus on that paragraph at the top in your

24 language where it says:

25 "According to his estimation, approximately 1.000 Muslims were

Page 42385

1 killed ..."

2 Now, yesterday I asked you whether this was accurate, what you

3 had told the Slovenian investigator. And you said, this is a quote from

4 page 110 of yesterday's transcript, line 1, you said:

5 "Yes, but I referred to Erdemovic's statement there."

6 Now, you can see in that sentence where it says:

7 "According to his estimation, approximately 1.000 Muslims were

8 killed ..."

9 There's no reference to Drazen Erdemovic there. That's your

10 estimation, isn't it?

11 A. That estimation - let me explain - always referred to

12 Drazen Erdemovic's statement and that's what we all thought based on his

13 statement.

14 Q. So you agreed with Drazen Erdemovic's estimate that approximately

15 1.000 Muslims were killed at Branjevo Farm on 16 July?

16 A. We have to make a distinction here. At Branjevo Farm, people

17 were killed. Two things are being confused here: How many were killed

18 and how many were buried. If a thousand had been killed at Branjevo and

19 we are charged with an extra 500, where were these people buried then?

20 There is a distinction being made here between those who were killed at

21 Branjevo Farm and those who were subsequently buried at Branjevo Farm.

22 It is a well-known fact from my trial that people kept on being brought

23 in lorries to Branjevo Farm. I even said in my interview with

24 Tomasz Blaszczyk that people must have been executed elsewhere because

25 those people who arrived after the buses, once we stopped killing, looked

Page 42386

1 as if they had been executed elsewhere.

2 Q. Well, Mr. Kos, the evidence in our case - this is Exhibit P4772,

3 Dusan Janc's report - is that there's 1.735 individuals have been

4 identified by DNA matching out of the Branjevo Farm grave and its

5 associated secondary graves. It's our case that approximately 500 of

6 those 1700 were killed at the Pilica Dom, which leaves approximately 1200

7 individuals who were executed at Branjevo Farm; right?

8 A. Let me explain in this way. We're running in circles here.

9 You're insisting on one figure and I am persistently saying that I based

10 my statement on Drazen Erdemovic's statement. I always adhere by my

11 words. At Branjevo Farm the 10th Sabotage Unit did not execute more than

12 six buses, a total of seven to seven and a half of people -- buses

13 arrived, and this is what I've always claimed and I always will. At my

14 trial the witnesses stated, and it was proven by the size of the grave

15 that was found at Branjevo, and nobody ever wanted to prove what its

16 dimensions were, and you have its dimensions in my first-instance

17 judgement. That's where they are given, the exact dimensions are given

18 there.

19 In our order to make up for 1200 or to 1800 Muslims, which were

20 the two figures mention during my trial, in one part of the

21 first-instance judgement, the Trial Chamber wrote that there were several

22 graveyards or graves found at Branjevo Farm. In a paragraph before that

23 it says that there was just one grave at Branjevo Farm and its exact

24 dimensions are mentioned. The only thing that is not mentioned is the

25 name of the person who opened it, William Haglund. His name was

Page 42387

1 deliberately omitted during my trial so that he did not have to be

2 brought as a witness.

3 Q. Okay. Well, yesterday you agreed that it wasn't in your interest

4 to inflate or exaggerate in any way the number of Muslims who were killed

5 at Branjevo Farm. So regardless of whether this figure that you told the

6 Slovenian investigator is your estimation or Drazen Erdemovic's

7 estimation, there's absolutely no reason whatsoever for you to have

8 mentioned a figure of 1.000 if you actually thought that some 350 to 370

9 people were killed at Branjevo Farm that day; right? That doesn't make

10 any sense whatsoever, does it?

11 A. I keep on telling you, that was in 2004. As far as I can

12 remember, the Slovenian investigator took the interview in Bijeljina --

13 or actually, that's where he wrote his wrote, in a restaurant in

14 Bijeljina from memory, from what I had stated. I provided the statement

15 and he memorised it. As far as I can remember, my words were not

16 recorded. He did not record my words, and I keep on claiming that I said

17 in 2004, when the trial started, that so many people had been killed.

18 That's what I thought at the time. I hadn't given it a second thought.

19 But now I claim with full responsibility, I don't intend to insult the

20 victims, that the 10th Sabotage Unit did not execute more than six buses

21 and the overall number of people who were executed at Branjevo Farm was

22 not more than eight busloads. It doesn't make any difference to me.

23 Even if I reduce the figure, the things are the same for me. Even if we

24 killed one innocent civilian, which is terrible, or 300 because we had

25 been ordered to execute those prisoners of war, it still would have been

Page 42388

1 a big crime. But we couldn't do anything there and we have been held

2 responsible even more than some local individuals who were behind that.

3 We didn't have a clue what we would be doing at Branjevo when we first

4 arrived there.

5 Q. Well, let me just remind you of something you said yesterday.

6 This is at transcript page 103 of yesterday's provisional transcript.

7 You said:

8 "I can't tell you how many buses there were. I was not in the

9 Kula school, I was not in Pilica -- actually, it's one and the same. How

10 many buses there were and what make they were, I really can't remember as

11 I sit here today, nor can I answer your question."

12 Do you stand by that?

13 A. I can't tell you how many buses there were in front of the Kula

14 school. I was never in front of the Kula school. To this very day, I've

15 never been there. I don't know where that school is. Whatever you told

16 me yesterday, those are the statements provided by a survivor who was

17 there. I believe that that's what you said. During my trial a statement

18 was provided before the BH court by the bus driver who had brought those

19 prisoners of war from Bratunac to the Kula school.

20 Q. Well, we'll get to -- we'll get to what was said in your trial

21 about this. Let me go first to your interview with Mr. Blaszczyk on the

22 8th of May, 2010, this is 65 ter 25482, page 143 in English and 96 in the

23 B/C/S.

24 And again, we can agree that it's not in your interest to

25 exaggerate the number of Muslims who were killed at the farm, is it, to

Page 42389

1 give a higher number than actually were killed by your unit?

2 A. No, I wouldn't benefit from that at all.

3 Q. Okay. Well, Mr. Blaszczyk asked you:

4 "... how many people were killed that day? Your estimation?"

5 Not Drazen Erdemovic's estimation. Your estimation.

6 And you said:

7 "On Branjevo the assessment is 650-700 ..."

8 So that is twice the number that you told Mr. Karadzic's Defence

9 lawyer earlier this year, isn't it?

10 A. Hold on, hold on. I apologise. You'll have to repeat that

11 question, I'm afraid.

12 Q. Can you see in line 4 in your language --

13 A. I see that.

14 Q. -- your words:

15 "On Branjevo the assessment is 650-700 people."

16 All I'm asking is that number that you gave in 2010 is twice the

17 number that you told Mr. Karadzic's Defence lawyer earlier this year,

18 isn't it?

19 A. Yes, it says 650-700 people here. I repeat once again, I'm

20 referring to Drazen Erdemovic's statement here. I did not exaggerate the

21 number of those who were killed; however, I also referred to the

22 statements given by some people who said later on that that's how many

23 had been killed. One of the witnesses --

24 Q. Let me stop you --

25 A. -- said --

Page 42390

1 Q. Let me stop you there. Mr. Blaszczyk's question was your

2 estimation. He asked you for your estimation and you said:

3 " ... the assessment is 650-700 people."

4 There's no mention of Drazen Erdemovic, no mention of anyone

5 else, this is your estimation in 2010; right?

6 A. Yes, that's my estimation. This is what it says here, this is

7 what I stated. But I repeat, based on your people's statements as well

8 as the facts that were established here before this Court.

9 Q. Okay.

10 MR. MITCHELL: Can we have 65 ter number 25481 in e-court.

11 Q. This is your interview with the state court prosecutor in August

12 2010. And you'll remember at the start of that interview the prosecutor

13 said to you had the right to put forward your own defence, you had the

14 right to remain silent, and you were also told that anything you said

15 could be used in evidence in your trial against you. Do you remember

16 that?

17 A. Are you referring to Tomasz Blaszczyk or to the prosecutor before

18 the BiH court?

19 Q. We're now talking about the BiH prosecutor interview. This is a

20 different one now.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. So you remember the prosecutor telling you you could put

23 forward your defence, you could stay silent, but that if you did say

24 anything that could be used as evidence against you. You remember that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 42391

1 MR. MITCHELL: Can we go to page 33 in both languages.

2 Q. And you will see here -- so, in this interview where you were

3 putting forward your own Defence you say:

4 "... I don't think more than about 600 people ..."

5 So again, not Drazen Erdemovic, not anyone else, this is your

6 estimate in this interview, 600; right? Can you see in line 6 your

7 words?

8 A. Yes, these are my words.

9 Q. Okay. Now let's go to the testimony in your own case in 2011.

10 And you remember at the start of your testimony the judge warned you that

11 it was your duty to tell the truth because perjury is crime; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. And in your own trial, of all places, where your own

14 freedom is at stake, it's in your very best interest not to exaggerate

15 the number of people who were killed at Branjevo Farm, is it?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay. Well, in your testimony, unfortunately we don't have a

18 transcript of it in your language, but it's 65 ter 25480, page 95 in the

19 English, you give two estimates. First of all you say 300 and then under

20 cross-examination at page 137 you say "probably 600." And then in the

21 judgement in your case, which I'll bring up and let you have a look at,

22 65 ter 25492, page 103 in the B/C/S, if you look at paragraph 575 it

23 says:

24 [As read] "The accused - Franc Kos - also participated in the

25 executions. Over the course of his testimony, Kos kept changing the

Page 42392

1 number of buses and prisoners killed, stating at the end ... that a total

2 of almost 8 buses of prisoners were killed at Branjevo, the last of which

3 having been half full ..."

4 So even in your own case where your own freedom was at stake,

5 you're testifying under penalty perjury, even then you couldn't keep your

6 story straight, could you, about how many buses and how many people were

7 killed that day?

8 A. When I testified on my own behalf, as I already told you

9 yesterday, explained how the executions were carried out. I know what

10 happened with each of the buses. That's why I came up with the number of

11 eight buses in total.

12 Q. Okay. But as you're sitting here today, 18 years later, we've

13 seen you've gone from telling the Slovenian investigator ten years ago an

14 estimate of 1.000; then you told Mr. Blaszczyk 650 to 700; then you told

15 the state court prosecutor 600; then in your own trial you went between

16 300 and 600. As you sit here today, you can't say with any certainty how

17 many prisoners were killed at Branjevo Farm that day, can you?

18 A. I'm telling you again and again how many were killed, but I don't

19 know how many dead bodies were dragged into the place subsequently. I

20 keep on telling you how many were executed while we were there at

21 Branjevo Farm, how many were killed by the 10th Sabotage Unit and that

22 other group.

23 Q. Okay. Let me ask you again. 2004, you've gone from giving the

24 investigator an estimate of a thousand, now you're down to 300; and in

25 between you've given a range of estimates, 650 to 700, 600. As you sit

Page 42393

1 here today, you can't say with any certainty whether it's 300, 600, 650,

2 700, or a thousand, can you? With a hundred per cent certainty, you

3 can't say what the number is, can you?

4 A. I think that nobody can say that with any certainty. Nobody can

5 say how many were executed at Branjevo Farm, how many exactly were killed

6 and how many were buried there. There's just one man who can say how

7 many were buried.

8 Q. Okay. Let's move to something completely different. May or June

9 1995 you and the other members of your unit went through a mine tunnel

10 near Srebrenica and you conducted an operation against the town, didn't

11 you?

12 A. Which town?

13 Q. Against the town of Srebrenica. You went through the mine tunnel

14 and then you fired some weapons into the town of Srebrenica?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. Now, you haven't been to Srebrenica before and you weren't

17 familiar with the layout of the town and it was the middle of the night;

18 right?

19 A. Yes, that was the first operation for which we were brought. In

20 the evening we went through the tunnel and we came back. That was the

21 first time. Until then, I had never been in Srebrenica.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. Just a moment. Then, when we entered, I did not know the exact

24 purpose of this operation. It was only when we got out that we found out

25 what the purpose of that operation was.

Page 42394

1 Q. Okay. And after you'd come out of the mine tunnel, your unit

2 fired a 60-millimetre mortar, some Zoljas, and some Osa missiles into the

3 town; right?

4 A. I don't know what they were being fired at because I don't know

5 the exact location where we were. I know that we were on a hill above

6 Srebrenica. Below there were white roofs that we could see at night.

7 Now, whether these were some factories were something, I cannot say, so I

8 cannot say what we fired these projectiles at.

9 Q. Okay. But the aim was basically to just fire as many projectiles

10 as possible as quickly as you could and get out of there; right?

11 A. Yes. But I have to say something there. All these projectiles

12 that we fired were Zoljas, Osas. None of that reached an inhabited area.

13 All these projectiles, when fired at a certain range, self-destruct. So

14 a Zolja, M60, self-destructs at a range of 450 to 500 metres I think.

15 And an Osa at 650 to 700 metres, it self destructs unless it hits a

16 target. My estimate is that we must have been at a distance of at least

17 1.500 metres from that inhabited area when we were up on the hill.

18 Q. Okay. You told Mr. Blaszczyk in your interview with him that it

19 was your view that the purpose of this mission was to create chaos in

20 Srebrenica; is that right? By firing these weapons towards Srebrenica,

21 the purpose was to create chaos?

22 A. That is what we were told when we got out. The operation had

23 been carried out to show sort of that there is chaos in Srebrenica and

24 that soldiers, Muslims, started fighting amongst themselves, quarrelling

25 amongst themselves, and to create some kind of chaos amongst the

Page 42395

1 population and a lack of safety and security. That's what we were told

2 when we got out, when the operation was over.

3 Q. Let's go now to the 11th of July, so the day when your unit

4 entered the town of Srebrenica. Now, as you were approaching the town

5 that day and as you were entering the town, you were talking to the other

6 members of your unit on the Motorola -- on the Motorola radios, weren't

7 you?

8 A. Yes, we had radio communication with the other groups.

9 Q. Okay. And at one point you heard General Krstic over the radio,

10 the commander of the Srebrenica operation, and you heard him say the

11 words: "Push and burn down"; correct?

12 A. I don't see the point of this push and burn down. What --

13 Q. I'm not asking you to -- the point. I'm saying you heard

14 General Krstic say that over the radio, over the Motorola; right?

15 A. Yes. Because when we started entering Srebrenica, first of all,

16 in the morning we had not left immediately so we had to get down into

17 Srebrenica in haste. As for this thing, push and burn down, that means

18 that one should advance and that in -- along the way something should be

19 torched, a haystack or whatever, but in that way people would know how

20 far our unit had advanced, our people would know for the sake of security

21 how far we had advanced down there.

22 Q. Well, let me remind you of what you told Mr. Blaszczyk in your

23 interview in 2010.

24 MR. MITCHELL: If we can have 65 ter 25482 in e-court, that's

25 English page 41, B/C/S page 28.

Page 42396

1 Q. And you'll see when this comes up you said:

2 "We heard him," that's General Krstic, "saying, 'Push and burn

3 down,' but we did not want to set fire to houses because we understood

4 that he meant that houses should be put on fire."

5 So that's what you understood General Krstic to be saying, isn't

6 it? He was ordering you to set houses on fire as you came into

7 Srebrenica. Can you see the paragraph in the middle of the page? You

8 say:

9 " ... we understood that he meant houses should be put on fire,"

10 and then you go on to explain that you didn't want to set houses on fire.

11 So let me ask you again: When General Krstic said "Push and burn

12 down," you understood that to be an order to set fire to houses, right?

13 A. Well, we thought that that's the way it was; however, we did not

14 torch houses. We torched hay. That was our opinion. He did not issue

15 that kind of order. I expressed my own opinion.

16 Q. Okay. So it's your opinion that General Krstic was telling you

17 to burn houses, but your unit didn't actually burn any houses. Do I

18 understand you correctly?

19 A. Yes, that was my opinion. As far as I can remember, not a single

20 house was torched as we were going down there.

21 Q. Okay. Now, you stayed in Srebrenica on the night of the 11th and

22 then all day on the 12th. And Lieutenant Pelemis authorised your unit to

23 go into some of the houses and take some of the items, like kitchen

24 appliances, that kind of thing, didn't he?

25 A. Yes.

Page 42397

1 Q. Okay. And you ended up taking a truck and a trailer full of

2 items out of Srebrenica?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, on 11 and 12th July, most of the Muslim population was just

5 up the road in Potocari, weren't they, up near the UN base?

6 A. I cannot confirm that because I did not go to Potocari. I went

7 to the centre of Srebrenica on the 11th and I went back and I never came

8 back there. I can confirm that. As far as Potocari is concerned, I

9 don't know anything about that. As for what you said, civilians, there

10 were civilians in Srebrenica when we entered, but we provided security

11 for them. As for Potocari, I cannot say anything about that because I

12 wasn't there and I didn't see.

13 Q. Well, you didn't provide security for all of them, did you?

14 Zoran Obrenovic slit the throat of one of them, didn't he, when he

15 surrendered to your unit?

16 A. That man, when I got down there into town, he was already dead.

17 As for Zoran Obrenovic slitting his throat, I heard about that from other

18 people. I did not see that with my own eyes, that he had slit his

19 throat.

20 Q. Right. But you saw his dead body lying on the sidewalk in town,

21 didn't you?

22 A. Yes, I saw his body.

23 Q. Okay. Well, on the 11th and 12th of July when General Krstic is

24 ordering that some things be burned and your unit is removing things from

25 the Muslim houses, it must have been very obvious to you then that those

Page 42398

1 Muslims weren't coming back to Srebrenica; right?

2 A. I was a nobody over there. I was not supposed to think about

3 that.

4 Q. I understand that, but you wouldn't -- your unit wouldn't have

5 been taking things from the homes of those Muslim people if they were

6 coming back, would you?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How do we know that these were only

10 Muslim houses?

11 JUDGE KWON: It's for the witness to answer. Witness could be

12 able to answer the question.

13 MR. MITCHELL:

14 Q. Let me ask my question again, Mr. Kos. Your unit wouldn't have

15 been taking things from Muslim homes in Srebrenica if those Muslim people

16 were coming back to their homes, would you?

17 A. These were houses. They were not apartments. Whose houses they

18 were, I don't know. Now, whether people were supposed to come back, that

19 I don't know. Who planned to do what further on with these people, I

20 don't know, and I don't see the point of these questions. To me as a

21 soldier who just came there, carried out an order, and everything I say

22 here about this is just my opinion. I can just express my own opinion.

23 Q. Okay. One last question on this. Lieutenant Pelemis gave you

24 the green light, he gave you permission to go in and take things from

25 those apartments or from those houses, didn't he? I'm not accusing you

Page 42399

1 of anything. I'm just saying Lieutenant Pelemis said you could go and do

2 that?

3 A. He didn't say that to me personally. Who he said that to, I

4 don't know. I just help people with the loading, and now whether he said

5 that to someone you will have to ask Milorad Pelemis personally.

6 Q. Okay. Let's go to Kravica on 13 July. Now, in your statement or

7 your interview with Mr. Karadzic's lawyer, you said that around 6.00 p.m.

8 on the 13th of July you, Marko Boskic, and Lieutenant Pelemis went to the

9 command post in Vlasenica; correct?

10 A. Whose command post?

11 Q. The Drina Corps command post in Vlasenica.

12 A. Yes, yes, the Drina Corps in Vlasenica. I'm asking because our

13 command was in Vlasenica as well, in a village by Vlasenica, that's why

14 I'm asking whose command, because we went from our command in Dragosevci

15 in the corps to the command in Vlasenica.

16 Q. Thank you. I'll be more precise. Now, Lieutenant Pelemis went

17 inside the Drina Corps command post and he spoke with General Krstic,

18 didn't he?

19 A. Yes, he entered the command of the Drina Corps. Now, who he

20 talked to, I have no way of knowing. Officers were inside. Now, which

21 officers he talked to I cannot say because they talked behind closed

22 doors. I and Boskic stood in front, in a big hall.

23 Q. Okay. Let's go back to 65 ter 25482. This is your ICTY

24 interview again. It's page 50 in the English, page 34 in the B/C/S. And

25 you say here:

Page 42400

1 "Pelemis talked to some people I didn't know. Later I've seen

2 those people on some other locations -- in some other locations where I

3 have seen General Krstic. I learned then that it was General Krstic."

4 So you might not have known right at the time, but later on you

5 learned it was General Krstic who was talking to Pelemis at the

6 Drina Corps command; right?

7 A. Well, I explained that to you a moment ago. Who he talked to and

8 what he talked about, I have no way of knowing. He can talk to any man

9 who is at the command at the time and also to the general because they

10 know each other personally, and some colonel and some officer who's a

11 neighbour of his -- now, what they talk about, I don't know. They were

12 present.

13 Q. Okay. So General Krstic was present there. You learned later

14 that the officer that Pelemis was talking to was General Krstic? I'm not

15 asking you what they were talking about. I'm just saying that

16 General Krstic was there; right?

17 A. Well, yes.

18 Q. Okay. So you leave the Drina Corps command and you start heading

19 towards Kravica. So you're driving towards Konjevic Polje. And

20 Lieutenant Pelemis says to you and Marko Boskic, this is what you said in

21 the state court in your own testimony:

22 "We have to go to Kravica. There has been an incident there. We

23 have some people there. There are dead prisoners also."

24 So that was your testimony in the state court. Do you stand by

25 that?

Page 42401

1 A. Yes. But I don't remember that I said "to Kravica." He said:

2 Let's go and take a ride to Konjevic Polje and further on. I'm not 100

3 per cent sure that he mentioned Kravica.

4 Q. Okay. But he did say:

5 "There's been an incident ... we have some people there. There

6 are dead prisoners also."

7 That's what you said in your testimony in the state court. Do

8 you stand by that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. So you drove to Konjevic Polje and then you turned right

11 and you went down the road to Kravica and you went past the warehouse and

12 parked your car about a hundred metres past the warehouse on the

13 right-hand side of the road. And Pelemis got out and he went and spoke

14 with five senior officers who were standing there with their jeeps. Is

15 that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. And you actually saw these five officers in some other

18 actions and you thought that -- you didn't know exactly who they were,

19 but you thought that they were from the VRS Main Staff in Han Pijesak;

20 right?

21 A. Yes, that's what I thought then.

22 Q. Okay --

23 A. Because people were in jeeps, that is to say military jeeps. Who

24 was in the military jeep, I don't know, because they had such jeeps in

25 corps commands and in brigade commands, brigade commanders. That is just

Page 42402

1 my opinion. I cannot say that with 100 per cent certainty and I cannot

2 claim that these are people from the Main Staff either.

3 Q. Okay. But you knew that they were officers from the VRS, right,

4 because of their uniforms, their appearance, their attitude, you knew

5 that these were officers; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you overheard one of these officers say something to Pelemis

8 like, this is a quote from your ICTY interview, 65 ter 25482, the officer

9 said to Pelemis:

10 "They made a big mess. We have to bury all this and hide it."

11 So you heard one of those officers say that to

12 Lieutenant Pelemis?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. So you've marked about a hundred metres away. You then

15 walk up to the warehouse, and on the way you heard two explosions, two

16 grenade explosions, and four or five shots as you're walking towards the

17 warehouse; right?

18 A. Yes, that was near the warehouse. Now, whether it was in the

19 warehouse, I don't know because I did not see and there was still

20 fighting going on there, there was still shooting because nearby these

21 Muslim soldiers were passing by above that hangar. I heard two

22 explosions and bursts of gun-fire. Now, whether that was in the

23 warehouse or behind the warehouse, I cannot say.

24 Q. Now, when you arrive at the warehouse, you saw that the warehouse

25 had basically two main rooms, right, a big one on the left and a big one

Page 42403

1 on the right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. And you looked in the room on the left side of the

4 warehouse, so the end that's closest to Bratunac, and you saw that the

5 entire floor of that side of the warehouse was covered in dead bodies;

6 right?

7 A. Yes, I saw bodies from the bus to the entrance into the

8 warehouse. I did not see bodies in the warehouse then, when I got to the

9 warehouse. I saw them in front of the warehouse, bodies, not to go into

10 estimates again. Perhaps it would be about 20 human bodies.

11 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Can I have 65 ter 25483 in e-court.

12 Q. This is a sketch of the Kravica warehouse that you drew during

13 your interview with Mr. Blaszczyk in 2010. Now, that's your signature on

14 the left, isn't it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. And we can see on the room on the left -- so you've drawn

17 the warehouse. On the room on the left you've written a number 8; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And on the room on the right you've written a number 9?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. If we go now to 65 ter 25482, your interview, and we'll

22 see what you had to say what you saw in those two rooms marked number 8

23 and number 9.

24 MR. MITCHELL: So if we can go to page 61 in the English and 42

25 in the B/C/S.

Page 42404

1 Q. And we can see here the area you marked with an 8 is the area

2 where you saw the dead bodies. And you say:

3 "Yes.

4 "The entire area?

5 "Yes."

6 So you did look in the left-hand side that was marked with a

7 number 8 and the entire area was covered with bodies; right?

8 A. Just a moment. This has to do with the dead bodies outside,

9 because when the man said there are some inside then I approached the

10 warehouse and a wounded prisoner ran out of the warehouse. I spoke about

11 that there. Then I saw that there were bodies there, not before that.

12 Only when I got to the door. Before that, I didn't know that there were

13 dead people inside as well.

14 Q. But, Mr. Kos, that was your sketch. You put a number 8 on the

15 area where you --

16 JUDGE KWON: Why don't we go back and starting -- start from

17 where he explained the numbers and the location. I think it -- the

18 English page should go back by one page. Why don't you start from number

19 7.

20 MR. MITCHELL: We can start from number 7, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE KWON: Do you see it in B/C/S as well?

22 MR. MITCHELL: So perhaps we can go back to the image,

23 65 ter 25483 --

24 JUDGE KWON: Why don't we print it out and give the witness a

25 hard copy print-out. Also, we would like to have a -- I think the

Page 42405

1 Registrar could do that. 65 ter number 25483, and distribute it to the

2 witness and the Chamber. And --

3 MR. MITCHELL: Perhaps I can deal with something else --

4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

5 MR. MITCHELL: -- briefly and come back to this, Mr. President.

6 Q. When you were leaving Kravica and you were heading back towards

7 your base at Dragasevac, you said to Pelemis, Lieutenant Pelemis:

8 "Boss, if it's possible, do not get us involved in this because

9 it is not a human thing to do. This is not a job for us."

10 Do you remember saying something like that to Lieutenant Pelemis

11 after you left Kravica and you were heading back to your base?

12 A. Yes, I said that to Pelemis.

13 Q. And Pelemis said to you:

14 "From this point on, whoever calls you by phone or summons you

15 asking you to go there, you shouldn't go anywhere until I get there.

16 Just tell them: I have my superior officer, he will give the orders."

17 So that's what -- you know, when you said to Pelemis: Don't let

18 us get involved in this, Pelemis said: Don't do anything unless I

19 approve it. Right?

20 A. He didn't say: Don't do anything unless I approve it. He said

21 that I mustn't budge from the base without his approval.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. As for the job, the execution, we didn't talk about that. This

24 was after Kravica.

25 Q. Yes.

Page 42406

1 A. And it was clear that people were avenging themselves, having

2 their own personal vengeances. I saw that with my own eyes.

3 Q. Right. And you were asking Pelemis for your unit not to be

4 involved, and he said: Don't do anything unless I approve it. So don't

5 go anywhere without my permission; right?

6 A. It's not the execution that was meant by that. He wasn't to take

7 the unit to such places as Kravica. That's what I meant then. I didn't

8 have the execution in mind.

9 Q. Okay. Now, you just said it was clear that people were avenging

10 themselves, having their own personal vengeances. The special police

11 brigade who was at Kravica participating in those executions there

12 weren't carrying out personal vengeances, were they?

13 A. I don't know which special police brigade you mean. Which

14 brigade? Which platoon? Which company? Because I didn't see anyone

15 from a special police brigade there. There was some six to seven

16 soldiers wearing camouflage uniforms, older uniforms. And as far as I

17 was able to notice during my stay at Kravica by that warehouse, two or

18 three executions for personal reasons were carried out, and the reason

19 was some personal -- were some personal axes that they had to grind from

20 before the war --

21 Q. -- okay so --

22 A. -- they had an argument before the war and --

23 Q. There are two or three personal revenge killings at Kravica. The

24 rest are an organised execution; right?

25 A. I cannot confirm that. I know that there was an incident when

Page 42407

1 one of the prisoners grabbed a rifle and started shooting at the guards,

2 and I heard that one was killed and two wounded. And then shooting

3 started in front of the hangar. I don't know who killed the people

4 inside the hangar. I have no way of knowing --

5 Q. Okay --

6 A. -- I wasn't present.

7 Q. Okay. And your unit that went to Branjevo Farm on the 16th of

8 July didn't go there because of personal vengeance, did it? You went

9 there because you were ordered to go there; right?

10 A. We never received orders to go to the Branjevo Farm. Our order

11 was that we were supposed to secure prisoners. No one ever mentioned

12 Branjevo.

13 Q. Okay. The point was, though, you didn't kill prisoners at the

14 Branjevo Farm because of personal vengeance, did you? You did it because

15 you were ordered to do it?

16 A. No one member of the 10th Sabotage Detachment - and I'm speaking

17 about the 1st Platoon - had any personal reasons or ethnically based

18 reasons to go there. The 10th Sabotage Detachment did what it did

19 because they were ordered to do so.

20 Q. Okay. Let's go back to the picture of Kravica --

21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mitchell, I leave it to you whether to lead this

22 or not.

23 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE KWON: But did we hear what he did in Kravica warehouse?

25 MR. MITCHELL: I'm just getting to that --

Page 42408

1 JUDGE KWON: Okay.

2 MR. MITCHELL: -- Mr. President.

3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

4 MR. MITCHELL:

5 Q. So if you look at the picture that's here, look at the big room

6 where you put an 8. And you can see just to the right of that there's a

7 pole that you've marked with a 7; right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. And just outside that room we can see a number 5, and the

10 number 5 is where you were standing when you looked into the room that's

11 marked with a number 8?

12 A. Yes. When I approached the place and watched the dead bodies --

13 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry to interrupt, but could we have this --

14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zecevic.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: -- photo on the -- on the e-court, please? The

16 drawing.

17 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We could put it on the ELMO as well.

18 MR. MITCHELL: We can, Mr. President, but I do want to stay --

19 [overlapping speakers] --

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, yes, we will stay. But was this print-out

21 provided to Mr. Zecevic as well? Yes. But shall we continue,

22 Mr. Mitchell.

23 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Q. So you're standing at the point marked with a number 5, you're

25 looking into the room that you marked with a number 8, and you said to

Page 42409

1 Mr. Blaszczyk the entire floor of this room that you've marked with an 8

2 was covered in bodies. And again, I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm

3 just asking you: You looked in there and you saw this room, the floor of

4 this room covered with bodies? That's what you told Mr. Blaszczyk in

5 your interview in 2010.

6 A. I said that the floor was covered with bodies, but I thought that

7 they were sleeping. That's why I approached the door --

8 Q. Okay --

9 A. -- and I experienced what I did at the door.

10 Q. Okay. And you also looked into the room on the right-hand side

11 that's marked with a number 9.

12 MR. MITCHELL: If we can go to the next page in the English in

13 the interview.

14 Q. And you saw that the room on the right-hand side, so this is the

15 room closest to Konjevic Polje, it was also full of dead people; correct?

16 A. The room was full, but one could still hear a murmuring inside,

17 people speaking. That's why I thought that in the right warehouse they

18 were still alive.

19 Q. Okay. And the right room, the one marked with a number 9, that's

20 the one that -- where you heard people murmuring, that's the one that

21 Marko Boskic went and threw two grenades into, isn't it?

22 A. He didn't enter the room --

23 Q. He stood outside the room and threw the grenades inside?

24 A. Yes. When I returned to the room, he approached the warehouse

25 and threw two grenades inside. And most probably he had spoken to one of

Page 42410

1 the guards there about what had been happening during the day so that he

2 too ...

3 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, can I tender that sketch?

4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.

5 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.

6 JUDGE KWON: What does "slika" mean?

7 MR. MITCHELL:

8 Q. Mr. Kos, perhaps you could explain. On the top left of your

9 sketch what does "slika" mean written on the top left?

10 A. "Portrait," "drawing." "Sketch," if you will.

11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit this.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6473, Your Honours.

13 MR. MITCHELL:

14 Q. Let's go back very briefly to your interview -- or the notes of

15 your interview with the Slovenian investigator in 2004, 65 ter 25487, and

16 that's page 3 in both languages in the English and the Slovenian. And in

17 the third paragraph down in your language you'll see it says:

18 "From the conversation he had with other soldiers, he made out

19 that the number of persons killed at Pilica farm was inferior to the

20 number of persons killed some days ago on 11 to 12 July in Kravica near

21 Bratunac. This number was approximately 1300 killed Muslims."

22 And then you go on and say:

23 "According to Kos's words, special police units from Sehovici and

24 Janja were supposed to take part in the killings as well."

25 So you told the Slovenian investigator in 2004 that there were

Page 42411

1 1300, approximately 1300 killed Muslims at Kravica and the special police

2 from Sehovici and Janja were involved; correct?

3 A. Yes. That was already widely known and that's how the trial in

4 The Hague was conducted, and I knew it from speaking to the -- to -- from

5 hearing conversations between these people. But I didn't see the -- any

6 people killed elsewhere, so I couldn't say if there were more or less. I

7 only can speak about Branjevo and Kravica. These are things that I saw

8 myself. And how many there were at Kravica in the warehouse, I cannot

9 give you an exact number. It's only my estimate based on the size of the

10 warehouse, and I think -- I made an estimate of how many people the

11 warehouse could hold but it's merely my estimate.

12 Q. Right. So we can agree, your estimate isn't based on the number

13 of bodies that you saw; it's based on what you remember from 18 years ago

14 about the size of the warehouse; right?

15 A. Yes, because as you can see in the picture, as far as I remember

16 I told Investigator Blaszczyk that the left warehouse when I entered

17 wasn't full, but that in the front part on the right it was empty, that

18 there were no bodies or prisoners. That's about the left warehouse,

19 whereas the right one was full.

20 Q. Okay. Just one more thing on Kravica and then we'll move on.

21 The DNA evidence in this case, again this is Mr. Janc's report, P4772, is

22 the 1.374 individuals have been identified in the graves associated with

23 the Kravica warehouse. Now, not all of those bodies come from the

24 Kravica execution. There's around 1- to 200, we estimate, that come from

25 other places. But that leaves 11- to 1200 individuals who are associated

Page 42412

1 with the Kravica killings. Now, that's almost exactly the same number

2 that you told the Slovenian investigator almost ten years ago in 2004,

3 isn't it?

4 A. I only confirmed what people were saying about Kravica, and I

5 must say that in that warehouse I said how many people there were. If

6 there was another warehouse elsewhere, if -- whether there were people

7 killed elsewhere, I can't say because I never saw that. And the DNA

8 analyses performed have to do with the Kravica warehouse. But anyway, I

9 only saw the warehouse at Kravica. I was in front and I went inside.

10 MR. MITCHELL: Now, Mr. President, I think my time's up. There

11 are two short issues I'd like to deal with. It should be I think no more

12 than 15 minutes.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE KWON: There was some questions the Chamber

15 wondered whether you really had to put those questions, but what are the

16 areas?

17 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, one is related to the Pilica Dom

18 and Mr. Kos's trip there after the Branjevo Farm which isn't dealt with

19 at all in the Defence interview; and the second is very briefly the

20 issuance of the false identification papers in 1996.

21 JUDGE KWON: Given the scheduling of today, we'll allow you to

22 continue.

23 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Q. Mr. Kos, once your unit had finished at Branjevo Farm, you went

25 to Pilica and sat in the cafe across the street from the Dom; correct?

Page 42413

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you went over to the Dom at one point and you looked inside,

3 didn't you?

4 A. Yes, I looked inside but I didn't enter, but I only approached

5 the door to a distance of about 5 metres because there was some seven or

6 eight bodies in front of the Dom.

7 Q. Okay. Well, when you looked inside you saw a lot of dead bodies,

8 some wounded people inside the Dom; right?

9 A. Yes, there were bodies inside the Dom.

10 Q. And outside the Dom you could see there was some VRS military

11 police, some civilian police, and some other soldiers standing around;

12 right?

13 A. The military police was present all day and the civilian police,

14 I don't know what they were doing there.

15 Q. And then after you'd gone and looked in the Dom, you came back to

16 the cafe and Colonel Beara stood up and gave a speech, didn't he?

17 A. I think that the colonel gave a speech before I went to the Dom.

18 I mean, if you can call that a speech, because he was drunk and he was

19 boasting.

20 Q. Right. Well --

21 THE ACCUSED: Transcript.

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "Very drunk."

24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

25 MR. MITCHELL:

Page 42414

1 Q. Well, Mr. Kos, you've testified in your own trial about this

2 speech and you've also talked about it in your interview with the

3 state court prosecutor, and you talked about it to Mr. Blaszczyk as well.

4 And isn't it correct that Colonel Beara said the following words:

5 "Soldiers, you have done a great job and the state will be

6 grateful to you."

7 That was what Colonel Beara said, wasn't it?

8 A. Yes, all the soldiers present heard it.

9 Q. Okay. And when you heard Colonel Beara say those words, you told

10 Mr. Blaszczyk that that meant you knew that they were planning this all

11 along; right? So when you heard Colonel Beara's words, that was the

12 moment when you knew that these killings had all been planned; right?

13 A. That was my opinion; it wasn't the opinion of all the soldiers.

14 I understood then that somebody had planned something, but who and what I

15 don't know.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. I only know that I had to do what we had done, but pursuant to

18 whose orders? Most probably Colonel Brano Gojkovic, once he's arrested,

19 will say because he talked to him personally.

20 Q. Okay. Four or five days later, so after Branjevo Farm, after the

21 Pilica Dom, you saw Lieutenant Pelemis in Bijeljina and you asked him

22 what had happened, didn't you?

23 A. Yes. I asked him when he came from Belgrade what had happened

24 and that's because I had asked him earlier not to send us to such places,

25 and he merely replied: Force majeure, don't ask me anything else. And

Page 42415

1 that's what I did, or rather didn't do.

2 Q. And you understood that comment, force majeure, to mean that

3 these killings were something that you shouldn't have done but the orders

4 came from on high and it was something that you had to do; right?

5 A. Yes, we had to do it. And as for force majeure, when he said

6 those words to me I understood -- our direct superior was Petar Salapura,

7 he was the one who always issued us orders. I thought at the time that

8 that Petar Salapura was that force majeure. I never saw him at such

9 places. That was my opinion. That's how I had understood his words.

10 That's why I never asked any more questions. I didn't have the top

11 echelons in mind, such as the government or the Main Staff and so on. I

12 thought that this force majeure was actually Petar Salapura.

13 Q. Right. Now, after Colonel Beara's speech where he said that the

14 state would be grateful to you, your unit wasn't investigated or

15 prosecuted by the VRS, the RS MUP, the RS civilian authorities, or any

16 other RS authorities, were they?

17 A. I've just told you that I was told never to ask any questions

18 about that again.

19 Q. Okay. Well, I'm asking you, you weren't investigated or

20 prosecuted by any organ of the RS state, were you, so not the VRS, not

21 the MUP, and not the civilian authorities?

22 A. Yes, that's true. Nobody ever asked me anything about the

23 incident that happened at Branjevo Farm, that is, not before 2004.

24 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Can I have Exhibit P4491 in e-court.

25 Q. This is an order -- what you're about to see, Mr. Kos, is an

Page 42416

1 order dated 16 January 1996 and it's from Dragan Kijac who was the

2 minister of interior at the time to the head of the public security

3 administration. And you can see Minister Kijac has cut and pasted the

4 text of an order from -- or a request from Colonel Salapura which you can

5 read there. It says:

6 "Considering we have a group of members in the 10th Sabotage

7 Detachment who are foreign citizens or who are on a list of individuals

8 who have been indicted by the Hague Tribunal, we ask that you order the

9 Bijeljina MUP to issue personal IDs with Serbian first and last names to

10 these individuals or with different first and last names for Serbian

11 nationals. There are eight such individuals."

12 And over on the -- if we go to the next page we can see

13 Minister Kijac passes this on and says to the public security

14 administration:

15 "You are required to act on the request ..."

16 So eight false identifications for eight members of the

17 10th Sabotage Detachment. You received false identifications at around

18 this time in the name of Branimir Manojlovic; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that's a Serbian first name and a Serbian last name; right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. At the time you received your false --

23 A. Just a moment. The family name is Serbian, but the first name is

24 actually the name I was given at christening. My name is Branko, and

25 that family name is my partner's name. However, on that ID, that was

Page 42417

1 issued on the 8th of February, 1996. I entered my original

2 identification number which I was issued with in Slovenia. Somebody

3 didn't like that, so after a year I was given a different ID with a

4 Bosnian ID number. As for this ID card, I cancelled that through the

5 regular procedure at the Bijeljina SUP.

6 Q. Okay. At the time you received your false identification papers

7 in February 2006, were you aware that the minister of interior had

8 personally arranged for these false identification papers to be issued to

9 you?

10 A. No, we didn't know that the minister had organised that. We

11 arrived at the barracks where we were billeted in Bijeljina and - how

12 shall I put it? - the desk clerk told us that we had to fill out forms

13 for IDs pursuant to an order issued by Colonel Salapura.

14 Q. Okay. So let's just summarise. You weren't investigated by any

15 RS state organs, you weren't prosecuted by any RS state organs, and the

16 minister of interior, the most senior law enforcement official in the RS,

17 personally arranged for fake IDs for eight members of the 10th Sabotage

18 Detachment. Now all of that, what I've just described, is consistent

19 with Colonel Beara's statement on the 16th of July, that the state would

20 be grateful to you for what you did at Branjevo Farm, isn't it?

21 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer, just a second.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

24 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, if I could --

25 JUDGE KWON: He raised an objection.

Page 42418

1 MR. MITCHELL: If I could ask for the witness to take off his

2 headphones --

3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

4 MR. MITCHELL: -- during this objection.

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Mr. Kos, could you kindly take off your

6 headphones.

7 MR. MITCHELL: And perhaps Mr. Karadzic could make the objection

8 in English.

9 THE ACCUSED: Yes, I'll do. It seems to me that it is rather for

10 the closing argument than to summarise and to repeat and to repeat and to

11 repeat. I -- this is not a jury court and those effects are moot and

12 senseless.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE KWON: In particular the -- whether it was arranged by the

15 minister personally was not confirmed by the witness.

16 MR. MITCHELL: Well, the reason I put that "personally,"

17 Mr. President, is because Colonel Salapura's request goes to the minister

18 personally. So the foundation for my question is the document itself,

19 not the witness's confirmation.

20 JUDGE KWON: While I tend to see a point of Mr. Karadzic's

21 objection, but there's no basis to stop you from asking that question.

22 But how much more do you need to conclude your cross-examination?

23 MR. MITCHELL: That's it, Mr. President. That's the last

24 question.

25 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

Page 42419

1 Yes, Mr. Kos. Do you remember the question, Mr. Kos?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're asking me if I knew or

3 whether this document is accurate or what Beara said --

4 JUDGE KWON: No --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- whether that was accurate, is

6 that it?

7 JUDGE KWON: Then I will ask Mr. Mitchell to repeat his last

8 question.

9 MR. MITCHELL:

10 Q. Mr. Kos, my last question was: You weren't investigated by the

11 RS state authorities, you weren't prosecuted by the RS state authorities,

12 and the minister of interior personally arranged for eight members of the

13 10th Sabotage Detachment, including you, to receive false identification

14 papers. And all of that, what I've just described, is consistent with

15 what Colonel Beara said in the cafe in Pilica on 16 July, that the state

16 would be grateful to you, isn't it?

17 A. What you are just asking me I can answer only in this way:

18 Judging by the document that I've been shown here, I can only conclude

19 that the colonel of the intelligence centre, Petar Salapura, is hereby

20 requesting the minister of the interior to issue IDs. This is

21 Colonel Salapura's request. Minister Kijac approved the issuing of IDs

22 as far as I know. This is not his request. This is Colonel Salapura's

23 request.

24 MR. MITCHELL: I'll leave it there, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.