131121ED

Page 43948

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

4 That said, we'll bring in the witness.

5 [The witness takes the stand]

6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Mr. Krajisnik.

7 THE WITNESS: Good morning. Thank you.

8 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

9 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies. Good

11 morning to all.

12 WITNESS: MOMCILO KRAJISNIK [Resumed]

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Speaker.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. Yesterday we broke off when we were discussing document D1934.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] so could we call up page 27. I

19 don't know whether the entire transcript has been admitted or only the

20 pages that were displayed earlier on.

21 JUDGE KWON: I think we admitted it in its entirety, unless I'm

22 mistaken. We'll see.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Speaker, please take a look at the penultimate question. A

Page 43949

1 viewer from Pale is asking why Karadzic will not order an attack on

2 Sarajevo as 50.000 Serbs live there and everyone knows it could be done

3 at three days. And then my answer is:

4 "We are trying not to defeat our opponents because we don't want

5 to defeat them, as it is difficult to negotiate with the defeated."

6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. E-court says only two pages were

7 admitted. If parties could take a look.

8 Please continue.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. So what it says here is that we do not want to defeat them and so

11 on and so forth. How does this fit into your own experience, or rather,

12 your own knowledge regarding our general position vis-à-vis our

13 neighbours?

14 A. This is precisely an example of what you advocated as president

15 of Republika Srpska most often, but that was the policy of the political

16 leadership of Republika Srpska then.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. This last answer here, the question was whether I feel cheated

21 because we released everyone from Manjaca, 5.000 of them, whereas they

22 did not release anyone. And I'm saying that there is a village, an

23 entire village, near Duvno or Livno -- actually, both Livno and Duvno

24 that was turned into a camp. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how we kept

25 our promises and honoured our obligations to release prisoners and how

Page 43950

1 the other side did that?

2 A. In relation to prisoners, we always insisted on releasing all

3 prisoners on the basis of all for all. And in situations when we talked

4 to the other sides in the presence of the international community or

5 without them, we insisted that prisoners be released. And as a matter of

6 fact, that no one should even be prosecuted, that that should be left for

7 the period after the war, because very often that was the reason why some

8 people were kept in prison. And ultimately it was established that

9 perhaps it only had to do with participation.

10 I very often, on behalf of Republika Srpska, took part in talks

11 that had to do with prisoners. I was helping from the Serb side and from

12 the Muslim side it was Mr. Silajdzic most often, so that the two

13 commissions could resolve some matters of dispute so that prisoners could

14 be released. We insisted then - I as the representative of

15 Republika Srpska - and that was also accepted by Mr. Silajdzic, that

16 prisoners should be released because the very fact that they were kept in

17 prison allowed persons who were not under control to do something bad to

18 the people in prison. I was supported by the entire political

19 leadership, especially yourself, Mr. President, so I could persist in

20 that. But Mr. Silajdzic, in spite of all the efforts he made - and that

21 was obvious - because people at lower levels, especially the chairman of

22 his commission, always disputed that.

23 So let me round this off by saying that we always wanted to have

24 prisoners released as soon as possible everywhere.

25 The example that you gave here, when citizens were objecting and

Page 43951

1 holding this against you, quite simply on the basis of the agreement

2 reached with Mr. Sommaruga, you released all prisoners from prisons and

3 there were many prisoners left on the other side. There was hardly any

4 reciprocity attained, and then citizens criticised you personally and the

5 political leadership for having done that. And you said we have to give

6 a good example and we have to strive for having our people released from

7 prison or from isolation, which is quite similar. This is an example of

8 an entire village that was dealt with in such a bad way.

9 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to deal with 73 -- actually, this is

10 new page numbering. Yesterday you were asked about Motika, Oganj, and

11 number 250. Can you tell us briefly who Motika is --

12 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

13 I wonder whether parties have checked the pages that have been

14 tendered with respect to this interview?

15 MR. ROBINSON: Actually, Mr. President, I was -- sent a message

16 to the Registrar because I can't see the notes on e-court. I can only

17 see the document. It doesn't -- mine --

18 JUDGE KWON: You have to go to the original. So I would like you

19 to sort it out during the course of today.

20 MR. ROBINSON: Okay.

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I would like to suggest that

23 27 and 28 at least be added if we're not going to admit the entire

24 document.

25 JUDGE KWON: That will be done at least. Please continue.

Page 43952

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Can you say briefly why it was that you asked Motika about these

3 weapons? What was Motika then?

4 A. Mr. Milorad Motika at the time was the director of Pretis that

5 dealt with the manufacturing of certain equipment, but also the

6 manufacture of shells, that is to say, combat equipment.

7 Now, why did I ask him that? I tried to explain that yesterday.

8 I was an MP from the area of Sarajevo. Pretis, the company where

9 Mr. Motika worked, was in the area of Sarajevo. It was on the very edge

10 of the front line itself. So I was personally interested in this. My

11 family was there. My father, mother, brother, my family, my neighbours.

12 I knew all the people from that area.

13 Since - how do I put this? - since I was in the top echelons of

14 power of Republika Srpska, people came and spoke to me as friends and

15 asked me to try to help, to call someone so that this area could be

16 protected. Before this conversation - and that was towards the end of

17 the war - there was a major offensive. The civilian population was

18 attacked in the lowest part, Cekrcici, near Visoko, a lot of people were

19 killed because the Muslims wanted in that way, as they said, they wanted

20 to link-up their forces from the city and Visoko, and thus eliminate Serb

21 Sarajevo. Of course, since that is my hometown and -- I called him

22 asking him to help. I asked him for the same thing that my friends and

23 the presidents of the municipalities from there asked me.

24 Q. [No interpretation]

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear

Page 43953

1 Mr. Karadzic.

2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, because of overlapping, the

3 interpreters couldn't hear you. But before you repeat your question,

4 what was the exhibit number or 65 ter number where Motika appears?

5 Probably it's one of the intercepts.

6 Mr. Tieger or Mr. Karadzic?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that Mr. Tieger will be

8 readier to answer that.

9 JUDGE KWON: I was told it's P5653. Yes, please continue.

10 If you could repeat your last question.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Speaker, can you tell us, roughly speaking, how many barrels

14 does Orkan, Oganj, and Plamen have respectively? What is all of that?

15 A. As I said yesterday, I'm not very knowledgeable about that. I

16 saw this barrel as I was passing by once. I don't know how many barrels

17 it has. I think that Oganj has one. I don't know. I have to say that

18 I'm not qualified to give a precise answer to that. I heard from them

19 that that is a better thing than an ordinary shell and that's why I asked

20 him.

21 Q. Thank you. Do you happen to know about multiple

22 rocket-launchers? Is the size expressed in kilogrammes or calibres?

23 A. I have to say that I'm not knowledgeable about that. I'm sorry.

24 Well, as a layperson I could perhaps say something, but no, I cannot say.

25 I think it's in calibres, if I can say that freely.

Page 43954

1 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you were asked on page 43839 to 841, you

2 were asked about Orasje, and there was this question put there about to

3 liberate and to gain. And then on page 43846 you said that it was a

4 question of securing the corridor. Can you tell us whether --

5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I'm sorry to interrupt you. I was

6 reading the intercept where Motika appears.

7 Mr. Krajisnik, you just now said that: "... that is my hometown,

8 I called him asking him to help. I asked him for the same thing that my

9 friends and president of the municipalities from there asked me." Could

10 you tell us what it is that they asked for you -- asked you?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The presidents of municipalities,

12 there were ten municipalities in Serb Sarajevo -- no, sorry, Sarajevo.

13 One from Ilijas, one from Vogosca, and Rajlovac. These are three

14 municipalities that are closest to Visoko. Very often they would come to

15 see me, as an acquaintance, as a friend, and they asked me, "Can you call

16 someone to come help us?" Then I would either talk to them or try to

17 persuade them that it's not that terrible, or let's say, I tried to

18 pacify them psychologically. Very often the answer I got was:

19 Everything is fine when I'm up here with you, but when we go back, we see

20 that you told us something that was totally unfounded because I didn't

21 really have anything in my hands. It's not that I could do something so

22 I could at least call these people and say: Help these people defend

23 their homes. Make things easier for them.

24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I can understand that you tried to pacify them,

25 but in this intercept you asked for some big retaliation, didn't you?

Page 43955

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I explained that. I remember that

2 case very well, that was towards the end of the war. There was this big

3 attack from Visoko, and a lot of casualties on the Serb side. People

4 came and asked me to help them in order to prevent that. Perhaps it's

5 wrong to say "retaliation." It's retaliation towards soldiers, to

6 prevent them from advancing further towards Visoko, which is what they

7 wanted to do and to destroy the population. So my objective was to --

8 for them to find something so that they would forestall another attack

9 and a pogrom of the population. Perhaps the word "retaliation" was not

10 well chosen, but that was the objective.

11 JUDGE KWON: One of the dialogue -- one of the conversations you

12 had was -- reads like this:

13 "If it's possible, do you have an idea for us to use this

14 opportunity because it's very important to retaliate."

15 So were you suggesting at the time to use an air-bomb at the time

16 for the purpose of retaliation?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Well, you see

18 that not even today I don't know what 250 or 350 is. That's what he

19 mentioned, and I just told him that I'm conveying to him what the people

20 on the ground told me about the Oganj and the Plamen. That's all. Later

21 on we spoke in some kind of codes, but I wasn't paying much attention.

22 For example, 250 definitely did not refer to Oganj. It must have been

23 something else, an encryption term for something else. All I was

24 concerned about was whether he was able to help me or not.

25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

Page 43956

1 Back to you, Mr. Karadzic.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. In the vicinity of Orasje, were there any Croatian municipalities

5 that, due to the reasons of securing the corridor, we held throughout the

6 war and then eventually returned them to the Croats when the war ended?

7 A. Immediately the municipality of Odzak, which is neighbouring to

8 Orasje, we held it the whole time and they -- we returned it immediately.

9 Yesterday I was a bit confused by Mr. Tieger. Namely, you have seen the

10 map and what I was trying to say was that that was not a map -- actually,

11 there were two maps overlapping or superimposed on each other, and I

12 spoke about Orasje in terms of securing the corridor because, from this,

13 let's say, sandwiched area, people were saying that the Croatian forces

14 were constantly attacking. That was the reason. The reason was not to

15 conquer new territories because eventually we returned the territories

16 that we had been holding prior to that.

17 Q. Thank you. On page --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat again the

19 number of pages. It was too fast.

20 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat.

21 THE ACCUSED: Page 43846, line 15 to 17.

22 "It was simply a question of securing the corridor, and then,

23 again in talks, these things would be resolved politically and not

24 through the military situation on the ground."

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 43957

1 Q. So how was the issue of Odzak resolved and settled, politically

2 or militarily?

3 A. Eventually a political settlement was reached. But I would like

4 to add one thing that you didn't ask me about. There was a permanent

5 danger of passing through the corridor. I myself went that way, and the

6 problem was always if you go by car, people would say: Press your foot

7 on the gas pedal because otherwise you might be shot from the other side

8 or from close proximity. There were even requests to expand the corridor

9 from 1.5 kilometres to, let's say, 3 kilometres for security reasons.

10 Now, as for the ultimate solution, it all depended on the negotiations,

11 and that is what happened at the end.

12 Q. Thank you. The day before yesterday, that was page 100 - I'm

13 sorry if I'm wrong - you were asked about the granting of autonomy to the

14 Muslims. How would Muslims would have reacted if we had taken Tuzla and

15 then offered them autonomy within Republika Srpska?

16 A. I believe that you can find a whole series of statements given by

17 people from Tuzla. Tuzla was the most Yugoslav-oriented city with a

18 Muslim majority. For example, had our army occupied Tuzla, I'm convinced

19 that that would be the first area where people would accept autonomy and

20 accept to remain in Republika Srpska just to preserve the town as it had

21 been before, Yugoslav-oriented rather than a fundamentalist one. They

22 would have preferred an autonomy to staying within the Federation.

23 Q. Thank you. Also, it was suggested that in a document of

24 General Milovanovic it is said that Karadzic had approved directive 4.

25 The Assembly and the Presidency, where were we physically in

Page 43958

1 November 1992? Were we detached and far away or were we in the town?

2 A. The Presidency and the Assembly in 1991?

3 Q. 1992.

4 A. Oh, I'm sorry, 1992. I cannot remember exactly. I think that we

5 were together for quite some time, and after that we were separated. But

6 I think that at that time we were all together. I cannot remember at the

7 moment.

8 Q. Thank you. Do you know if I had approved the directives that I

9 myself hadn't drafted?

10 A. Just with a slight reservation I can say that I'm not sure --

11 that I'm sure that you hadn't approved the directives that you yourselves

12 haven't drafted. Let's say that somebody might have said something on

13 the phone, but in principle, I believe that whatever you signed you had

14 approved; however, what you didn't sign, I don't believe that you

15 approved.

16 Q. Thank you. On page 93 of -- from day before yesterday, that is,

17 the 19th, it was suggested to you that the term "ciscenje" of the Drina

18 referred to ethnic cleansing. Do you recall what our message to the

19 population was, and do you recall in how many plans we accepted for them

20 to have their own territories and their eastern enclaves along the Drina?

21 A. I know for sure that the term "ciscenje" did not mean "ethnic

22 cleansing." That's a military term, and if I remember correctly, this

23 was sanctioned in one of the cases here. Our principle had always been

24 that for a population in a certain area should remain there. There were

25 several statements to that effect. I don't remember when you said that

Page 43959

1 publicly, but I saw documents to that effect. Whoever laid down their

2 arms and was not involved in combat with our army, whoever was loyal and

3 not creating any troubles, they would enjoy the equal rights as the

4 Serbian people. You being a Montenegrin, you often used to say that this

5 is not in the tradition of a Serbian soldier, of a Serbian people, to act

6 unfairly and to commit crimes against other ethnicities who are in the

7 minority and therefore helpless to defend themselves.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

10 D119 in both versions. This cannot be that number. Well, now we have

11 it, yes.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. This is my proclamation dated the 20th of April, 1992. Do you

14 remember us sending this appeal to the Muslims, particularly their

15 civilians?

16 A. I remember this proclamation because it was issued only a day or

17 two when I came to Pale. After that we had a platform that you publicly

18 announced which dealt with the same matters.

19 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 2 it is said --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot find the portion

21 that Mr. Karadzic is reading.

22 JUDGE KWON: Please identify the portions you are reading for the

23 benefit of the interpreters.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Second paragraph, third sentence,

25 fourth line in the Serbian. Let's read the whole paragraph.

Page 43960

1 "The fragmentation of Yugoslavia also led to the transformation

2 of Bosnia-Herzegovina into three units. A number of Muslims and Croats

3 is to live in the Serb Bosnia-Herzegovina and a number of Serbs is to

4 live in the Muslim and Croat Bosnia-Herzegovina. It may be you that is

5 to live in the Muslim or in the Serb Bosnia-Herzegovina. That will

6 depend on a political agreement, which is inevitable. For the time

7 being, you are in the Serb Bosnia-Herzegovina and you are to enjoy the

8 same rights as Serbs do. Many Muslim villages have laid down their arms

9 and are enjoying full protection of the Serb army and Serb state organs.

10 Since at issue is a religious war, we do not force them to fight on our

11 side ..." et cetera.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Speaker, can you please tell us how is this consistent with

14 our claims that our vision was to have a pure Serbian republic?

15 A. This proclamation that you read is consistent with the policy

16 that was being pursued. Let me remind you of the same words that you

17 uttered at the Assembly of 26 July 1992, as well as on other occasions.

18 The policy of the Serbian leadership was not to have a future Serb entity

19 cleansed. On the contrary, always, in all the maps and agreements, it is

20 said that we were in favour of the return of the population that had

21 departed, for everybody to enjoy the equal rights; whereas all those who

22 want to go voluntarily shall have the right to go. That was the point

23 because many Serbs from Sarajevo wanted to leave but were prevented from

24 doing that. We wanted to issue the freedom of movement and to provide

25 the protection for those who were determined to remain behind.

Page 43961

1 Q. Thank you. You mentioned the platform. Are you referring to the

2 platform of the 22nd of April, 1992?

3 A. Precisely so. I think that took place two days later, therefore

4 it bears this date.

5 Q. Thank you. Mr. Speaker, when we mentioned directive 4, are you

6 aware of directive 7? Knowing me as you do, do you believe that I would

7 have consciously approved any directive that would involve violations of

8 international humanitarian law?

9 A. I can claim that Mr. Karadzic would never consciously sign such a

10 directive because, in addition to that, there are a lot of statements and

11 obligations undertaken in which he was advocating completely different

12 things. You yourself and the Serbian side as a whole. I talked with

13 Mr. Miletic about this directive and he himself was surprised - and he

14 drafted it - that this mistake happened. He was in two minds whether

15 that was a mistake or whether that was an intentional deed --

16 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me.

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.

18 MR. TIEGER: All right. Two matters. First of all, this didn't

19 arise in cross, that's obvious --

20 JUDGE KWON: But it's one of the directives.

21 MR. TIEGER: Right. But -- so I -- that's why I let it go, but

22 we can see that this is going now in a direction that was clearly -- that

23 is focused in a manner that doesn't implicate the nature of the

24 cross-examination. So the issue of directives generally, okay, but --

25 JUDGE KWON: But Miletic saying about this directive 7, if you

Page 43962

1 wish, we'll give you another opportunity to cross-examine this part.

2 Would that be fair, Mr. Tieger?

3 MR. TIEGER: As I say, I didn't let the general discussion go and

4 this was mentioned anyway at -- he raised it spontaneously in cross, but

5 I realise that it's sometimes necessary to rise in anticipation of where

6 we're headed, which is sometimes why I let leading questions go, like:

7 Are you referring to the platform of ...? But I just wanted to prevent a

8 large-scale effort to venture into areas not raised by cross.

9 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

10 Mr. Krajisnik, during the course of cross-examination you

11 responded to Mr. Tieger's question to the effect that General Miletic

12 himself was surprised by what he himself drafted. But you didn't refer

13 to directive 7. If my memory is correct, I think you mentioned

14 directive 4. But he -- so tell us exactly what Mr. Miletic told you at

15 the time.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since General Miletic was on the

17 same floor as I was and since in my case there are directive -- I don't

18 know if the number was mentioned --

19 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, same floor in the Detention Unit ?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in the Detention Unit. His

21 cell was adjacent to mine. And since I had been asked about this

22 directive in my trial, but I don't know the number, where it was

23 indicated that the civilians needed to be cleansed or "ocisceni," I was

24 surprised and I reacted by saying that that was a crime and I said the

25 same in my testimony.

Page 43963

1 I asked him the following: I see that you are the author of this

2 directive and you signed it, and I told him how I reacted to it as a

3 witness. He responded by saying that he was surprised too. "I don't

4 know what this is all about, I think it has been misconstrued."

5 Now, I cannot convey to you his reaction verbatim, but I can tell

6 you that he was surprised to see something like that in the directive.

7 And that is what I mentioned this again yesterday or the day before

8 yesterday in response to Mr. Tieger's question.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. As you know, we have many directives in the --

10 in this case. What directive were you talking about with Mr. -- with

11 General Miletic?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The directive where it is

13 said - and we mentioned yesterday - together with the army, the civilian

14 population should leave. That was the phrasing and the language. It was

15 mentioned yesterday, but I honestly don't know the number.

16 JUDGE KWON: So did General Miletic admit that he himself drafted

17 directive 4 and directive 7?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about the numbers. I

19 don't know the number of the directive, but the directive mentioned by

20 Mr. Tieger yesterday and the day before yesterday, where he quoted my

21 reaction to the directive, I said that a leading question was put to me.

22 It was later established that it was put to me by Judge Orie, that

23 leading question, and it was in relation to one of the directives. I

24 think -- I don't know myself, but I think it can easily be established

25 which one.

Page 43964

1 JUDGE KWON: I'll leave it at that.

2 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. President, yesterday at page -- transcript page - and I'll

5 give you the number in a moment - you were told that our generals visited

6 with President Milosevic. Did you know and did we know, were we informed

7 of the fact that our generals went to visit President Milosevic outside

8 of our knowledge?

9 A. I didn't know. I can only say that I was surprised to see the

10 content of that conversation, if that conversation is indeed credible.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That was at transcript page --

13 JUDGE KWON: 43846.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. In that conversation a suggestion is made as if you and I had

17 visited with President Milosevic the day before, allegedly simply so as

18 not to be in the company of generals. In the month of August, around the

19 negotiations surrounding the Dayton Accords, were we in contact with

20 President Milosevic of whatever kind that contact may be?

21 A. It's very difficult for me to set proper dates in that period.

22 What is clear is that for a long period of time, President Milosevic had

23 introduced some sort of an embargo, isolation at any rate, as if

24 sanctions had been imposed against us. I cannot really tell you when

25 this stopped and if that day or two before that date we were there. It's

Page 43965

1 very hard for me to say. I know this was the time when the Contact Group

2 plan was being discussed and when there was a large rift between

3 President Milosevic and our leadership.

4 Q. Thank you. Did we have more respect for him than he did for us

5 in view of those words that he uttered, referring to us?

6 A. I do think that we held him in much more esteem than he did us.

7 But I do have my doubts about these words supposedly uttered by

8 President Milosevic, although he was known to be speaking like this and

9 there were occasions when we simply weren't able to accept suggestions

10 coming from him. It is probable that Mr. Mladic added or emphasised

11 these words since he was also in -- on poor terms with us.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up 30861, a

14 65 ter document.

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Were our associates aware of our views with regard to the

17 possible capture of Sarajevo or territories not belonging to us? Was

18 this a matter of general knowledge?

19 A. I do believe that they were aware of it, especially where

20 Sarajevo was concerned. Every president of municipality and citizens in

21 general knew that we did not want to seize Sarajevo. You can look at

22 various reports which even state that foreign officers wondered why the

23 Bosnian Serbs did not go on and capture Sarajevo with their army.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think this is the proper

25 document. Can we have 30861, that's what I was asking for, 30861. Yes,

Page 43966

1 that's the 27th of July. This is a conversation between Momcilo Mandic

2 and one David. Can we look at page 3.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. We're looking at the bottom half. They're asking about how

5 this -- how the area can be reached. There is a route via Dobrinja, and

6 lastly it says:

7 "Those of our lot wanted to cleanse or mop-up Dobrinja, however,

8 Karadzic would not let them go ahead ..."

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, both

10 versions -- no, sorry. [In English] No, no, this is number one. English

11 may stay.

12 [Interpretation] Right. Perhaps we should have the next page in

13 English. Mandic said that those from Krajina offered to deploy two

14 brigades to ociste, cleanse or mop-up, Sarajevo. However, Radovan would

15 not let them go ahead with that.

16 So can we have the next page again. The English version is fine.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. The third line:

19 "They broke through the corridor and want to come to Sarajevo to

20 ociste, mop-up or cleanse it, all the way down there to Herzegovina.

21 However, Krajisnik does not let them ..." and what is missing here is

22 Radovan as well, because was this not your position as well as mine when

23 it came to Sarajevo?

24 A. What the two interlocutors here said is entirely accurate. I

25 don't know, well, about the mention of names here; however, it was your

Page 43967

1 position and that of the entire leadership not to press against Sarajevo

2 militarily because that would result in great casualties and would be

3 detrimental for Republika Srpska, because Sarajevo was a majority Muslim

4 city and we wanted only areas of Sarajevo -- those that were ethnically

5 populated by the Serbs to remain under Serb control.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted,

8 please?

9 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.

10 THE REGISTRAR: It receives MFI D4058, Your Honours.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. You were asked about the party meeting and the Assembly session

14 which took place on the 21st of December, whereas the party meeting took

15 place on the 19th or the 20th. Though you were not occupied with the

16 dealings of the party, do you know what the reason was for this meeting

17 to be - and I mean the party meeting - to be scheduled as early as it

18 was?

19 MR. TIEGER: [Previous translation continues]...

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.

21 MR. TIEGER: I believe that's a misstatement. I think the

22 witness himself said the meeting took place on the 20th. I don't know

23 why -- well, I know why Dr. Karadzic is engaged in this continuing

24 effort, but the witness -- this is a mis-characterisation of the

25 witness's testimony.

Page 43968

1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No matter.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. The question remains. Do you know why the party meeting was

5 scheduled as it was prior to the Assembly meeting without you being

6 informed of it?

7 A. Alarming news came in of the Muslim side wanting to achieve the

8 independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina as soon as possible and contrary to

9 the will of the Serbian people. That's why an urgent meeting was called

10 which was followed by activities, and the subsequent developments showed

11 that our apprehension was justified. It was followed by the plebiscite

12 decision and other very important decisions.

13 Let me just make a remark there. I said that the club of

14 deputies meeting took place on the 20th November. I do not remember if

15 there was a meeting the day before or not. I cannot recall. At any

16 rate, before the Assembly session on the 20th there was a meeting of the

17 club of deputies with other activists coming in from the field.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 32042, a 65 ter

19 document shown to the witness, please.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. While we're waiting for the document, can you tell the Chamber

22 who is Dr. Dragan Djokanovic?

23 A. Dr. Dragan Djokanovic is the president of a small political party

24 called the Party of the Federalists.

25 Q. Thank you. This is an intercept, I'm not sure if it's been

Page 43969

1 translated, where Dr. Djokanovic telephoned me and said they are calling

2 on the republics to declare independence --

3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Do we not have English version?

4 THE ACCUSED: There should be.

5 JUDGE KWON: We are relying on Mr. Reid.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Meanwhile I can read this out for you. Mr. Djokanovic telephoned

8 me in the capacity of the leader of another political party and said that

9 the European community was calling on the other republics to declare

10 independence. The discussion, or rather, this conversation took place on

11 the 17th of December and that they should send the appropriate documents

12 to the European community by the 23rd so that the European community

13 could recognise them by the 15th of January.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the bottom part of the

15 document. Please, can we scroll down.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. And do you agree with me that Mr. Djokanovic suggested that major

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina party should meet in Sarajevo, and he says we can

19 organise a meeting at Holiday Inn and put up strong resistance to this

20 call for the declaration of --

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we turn to the next page.

22 [No interpretation].

23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I'm not sure we're hearing

24 translation.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter apologises.

Page 43970

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. The declaration of independence, so I say: Very well, fine. And

3 then Djokanovic says: What do you think? I wanted to do this with

4 you ...

5 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Dr. Djokanovic says: I wanted to do this with you, and I believe

8 that this had to be done as urgently as possible and it should be done as

9 soon as possible in view of the cold weather, et cetera.

10 And further down he says: For the day after tomorrow at 12.00,

11 that's what I say.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page. [In

13 English] Next page.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. In the middle of the page it reads: Well, they said that they

16 would recognise this, but it would come into full effect after the

17 15th of January.

18 Does the fact that this meeting was called by a different party

19 account for the fact that you were not invited to the meeting?

20 A. This particular example, as do others, shows that party

21 activities ran alongside and independently of the Assembly activities.

22 So I wasn't aware of what was going on here with a different party that

23 shared the same concern of the SDS.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted,

Page 43971

1 please?

2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll mark it for identification.

3 THE REGISTRAR: D4059, Your Honours.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. According to what you know of this, was this meeting in fact held

7 at Holiday Inn and what do you know of it if so?

8 A. The multi-party meeting?

9 Q. The SDS plenary which was also attended by Djokanovic.

10 A. Yes, I do recall attending the meeting. I know that among those

11 present were deputies and SDS members, but it is quite possible that

12 there was several meetings running in parallel before the Assembly.

13 However, I did attend this particular meeting where this concern was

14 discussed.

15 Q. Thank you. You said that our strategic objectives took account

16 of the Lisbon Agreement and our agreement with the Croats at Graz.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Can the accused please repeat the number,

19 please.

20 JUDGE KWON: Please repeat the number, Mr. Karadzic.

21 THE ACCUSED: 1D9503.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. President, can you tell us, the paper "Novi Vjesnik," who

24 does it belong to and where was it published?

25 A. "Novi Vjesnik" is a Croatian newspaper. I don't know where

Page 43972

1 exactly it was published, probably in Zagreb.

2 THE ACCUSED: Could the next page be exposed on the other part of

3 the screen because it's English version. Yeah. Next page in English,

4 please.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. President, Boban says down there: The agreement as

7 recommended by the European community.

8 Does this accord with your knowledge, indicating that this did

9 not amount to any violation of the conference?

10 A. I said in my testimony here that when the conference ended, and I

11 think it was held in Brussels, it was at the proposal of Mr. Cutileiro.

12 Since the conference was not fruitful, he said that you can try and

13 resolve certain problems bilaterally, and thus help find a solution to

14 this problem. The Muslims did not want any part in this. We embarked on

15 these negotiations bilaterally with the Croats, and on our way back from

16 the conference stopped at Graz. And I think it was helpful.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the penultimate page in

18 English, please.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. What you said about the recommendation of the European community,

21 that's where it is.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this document please be

23 admitted ?

24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit it.

25 THE REGISTRAR: It's D4060, Your Honours.

Page 43973

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we briefly have 1D9504, just

2 to have it identified because the English version of the agreement has

3 been admitted under this previous number. So let's put up the Serbian

4 version as well.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Do you recognise this document? Is it the same document from

7 Graz?

8 A. Yes, it's the same document. I think that it was even archived

9 in my case.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it please be admitted either

12 under a new number or along with the previous one.

13 JUDGE KWON: Previous one being the news clipping? We'll admit

14 this separately.

15 THE REGISTRAR: D4061, Your Honours.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. During the cross-examination, the Prosecution focused on the

18 document called paper A and paper B to quite a degree. And then

19 Mr. Vjestica, an MP and a high official was quoted as saying at an

20 Assembly session that an operations plan should be adopted. Could you

21 tell us why Vjestica would be asking for an operational plan if paper A

22 and paper B were an official and binding plan?

23 A. That precisely says that, Vjestica, in a municipality where the

24 Serbs were a minority, where they were threatened, there were, say,

25 10.000 Serbs on one side of the Una river, they were worried, he was

Page 43974

1 worried, and he asked for an operations plan for defending this

2 threatened Serb population. So documents A and B, I repeat once again,

3 that document did not have any importance in the implementation of any

4 decision of ours. I never felt that at least. Perhaps someone just

5 mentioned that in passing, but in practice I never felt any significance

6 of it.

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Speaker, your Trial Chamber in the first-instance

8 judgement, how did they treat paper A and paper B and the six strategic

9 objectives?

10 A. I think precisely as I have interpreted it just now. It did not

11 attach any importance to the six strategic objectives or to documents A

12 and B, as I read it. You can read it too and see.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 24274, could it please be

15 shown and then page 354. Paragraph 995 of the judgement. Page 354. I

16 don't know which page it is in Serbian for paragraph 995.

17 [In English] "It would be incorrect to place these goals on a

18 pedestal, as the Prosecution does, for in the final analysis they are

19 anodyne statements, serving as official state policy and even qualifying

20 for publication in the Bosnian Serb Republic's Official Gazette ..."

21 And few lines later:

22 "An anachronistic reading of the May goals is not only

23 inadvisable, it misses the point, just as an anachronistic reading of the

24 December Instructions misses the point. The instructions and the goals

25 lacked substance and utility ..."

Page 43975

1 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

2 MR. TIEGER: Is it really helpful -- I mean, to the extent we are

3 going to engage in this exercise, is it really helpful to point out the

4 section and then skip over the very sentence which says that insidious

5 hidden meanings can be found in the context and the events that follow.

6 I mean, what kind of colloquy will result from that omission?

7 MR. ROBINSON: Actually Mr. Tieger didn't read that right. It

8 says:

9 "If one is inclined to find ... insidious" --

10 JUDGE KWON: Let's leave it. We have the document in front of

11 us.

12 What is the question, Mr. Karadzic?

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Speaker, this position taken in the final judgement, was it

15 actually dismissed by the Appeals Chamber?

16 A. My assertion is no, but you can see easily from the appeals

17 judgement that there is no qualification to the opposite.

18 Q. Thank you. You were asked, Mr. Speaker, it was suggested that

19 you were interested in military matters, that you talked to generals.

20 Whose generals were they?

21 A. Well, what was shown in my case and what was explained in the

22 judgement, I was interested in commanders at local level, municipal

23 level, or even lower level, from the Army of Republika Srpska and the

24 police. I wanted to express my interest in what was going on in the area

25 where my parents lived, where my neighbours and friends lived, after all

Page 43976

1 where my own house was.

2 Q. Thank you. Was -- were you a member of the Supreme Command and

3 what kind of a body was that?

4 A. I was a member of the Supreme Command. It was an advisory body

5 to the Presidency, or rather, the president of the republic as the

6 supreme commander.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P3419 [as interpreted], could that

9 please be displayed. 3149. Page 7 in Serbian. Then it must be number 8

10 in Serbian. That's not it. 05542154 is the ERN number of that page.

11 The English is fine but not the Serbian, so could we have page 7. The

12 typewritten page in Serbian, please. I don't know what these papers are.

13 They're not part of this document.

14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I'm seeing a different document in my e-court.

15 Oh, it should be Exhibit 3149. I'm not sure.

16 THE ACCUSED: Exactly.

17 JUDGE KWON: But you said 3419. Yes, P3149.

18 THE ACCUSED: Line 19, I said 3149.

19 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

20 THE ACCUSED: Yeah, that's first -- then eighth page in Serbian

21 from this cover page. And please, some in English -- that is 9 in

22 English.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Speaker, I'm going to read what you said, it's at the bottom

25 of the page.

Page 43977

1 "Mr. Krajisnik: I was never more useless than here. I have not

2 been consulted as a member of the Supreme Command about a single

3 promotion or about a single decoration or about a single action, nor do I

4 know and you have not submitted reports except to President Karadzic, so

5 we are in the same ..."

6 How does this correspond to your experience in terms of your work

7 in the Supreme Command and your influence over military developments?

8 A. These words confirm what I said throughout my testimony. This is

9 consistent with the role that I had in the Supreme Command and my

10 position vis-à-vis military operations.

11 Q. Thank you. Do you know what the attitude was of the military

12 commands towards the influence of civilian authorities over command and

13 control of the army?

14 A. The most adequate word in the Serbian language would be

15 "pristili se," that means that they strongly resisted any kind of

16 influence at local levels and further up.

17 Q. From that point of view, what was the position of the ministers

18 of defence?

19 A. They were marginalised and they did not have any kind of

20 influence. That was one of the reasons why Mr. Subotic resigned and that

21 can be seen from his testimony in my trial and I believe that happened

22 here, too, if he made a statement.

23 Q. Thank you. Dispute that, Mr. Speaker, did we have any knowledge

24 and, according to that knowledge, did our army commit crimes? What was

25 the attitude of our commanders towards crimes, rapes, and so on?

Page 43978

1 A. I can say from Mladic onwards, including all the other officers I

2 knew, but I shall focus on Mladic. When General Mladic came into contact

3 with us, anyway with me specifically, I always heard him being strongly

4 opposed to the commission of any crime, especially as far as

5 paramilitaries are concerned, that is to say, formations that were not

6 under control. He always said criminals can never establish a state. I

7 have to say that for the sake of the truth. For a while we did have this

8 rift between us and Mr. Mladic, but I have to say that.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have no further questions -- well, I

10 do have questions, but I haven't got the time needed for that. Thank

11 you, once again.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon. Can I just show

13 one more document, 65 ter 1368?

14 Mr. President --

15 JUDGE KWON: I wanted to make clear, the Chamber never has

16 restricted your time to examine the witness. Please continue.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. However, I'm making an

18 effort to bring in as many witnesses as possible, so it's because of

19 that, Excellency. It's not an objection addressed to you, no. I'm

20 afraid that this is not the document. 65 ter 13468.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. While we're waiting, Mr. Speaker, did you have this record in

23 your own trial, this record of the meeting of the Supreme Command?

24 A. A few days ago during proofing, I saw this document for the first

25 time or at least I do not remember having seen it. I would have

Page 43979

1 remembered this observation had I seen this.

2 Q. Thank you. Please focus on this, the 28th of March, 1995.

3 General Mladic is asking the minister not to interfere with promotions,

4 and he's asking me to annul the minister's decision. How does this fit

5 into what you said a moment ago?

6 A. This fully reflects the relationship between the minister of

7 defence and Mr. Mladic. Mr. Mladic, as a matter of fact, even received

8 oral consent. The minister transferred the few powers he did have to

9 him. He didn't want the minister to interfere in any way, to have any

10 kind of influence over the military.

11 Q. Thank you. I'm done. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, for

12 having come to testify on this holiday.

13 JUDGE KWON: I take it you are tendering this document, the final

14 one --

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

16 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive it.

17 THE REGISTRAR: D4062, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.

19 MR. TIEGER: Two quick matters arise for re-direct,

20 Mr. President, very brief. I'm pretty confident they can be finished in

21 five minutes, if not less. But if you want to break, that's fine too.

22 JUDGE KWON: Given the circumstances we'll continue -- but on

23 what issues?

24 MR. TIEGER: The first issue is a matter that was raised -- it

25 concerns the June 10th meeting of -- it was raised yesterday, the