140122IT

Page 45798

1 chief of the public security centre, Dragomir Vasic, where he writes that

2 the MUP had taken over assignments from the army, that it surrounded and

3 liquidated 8.000 Muslims. And that was later --

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the verb.

5 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

6 Could you repeat from where you referred to 8.000 Muslims? The

7 interpreters didn't hear you well.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, I can.

9 It's a telegram written by Dragomir Vasic, chief of the public

10 security centre at Zvornik.

11 MS. PACK:

12 Q. What are you pulling out of your folder, please, on your desk?

13 A. [In English] Sorry?

14 Q. What are you pulling out and putting on the folder on your desk?

15 A. [Interpretation] It's papers. It's not a gun.

16 Q. Would you put it, please, back? Would you put it back, please?

17 A. Why? That's what I'm talking.

18 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may object, and I'm not sure if I have right

19 to object. I just think the Prosecution, will all due respect, doesn't

20 have a right to direct the witness as to what he should do. I think

21 perhaps the request should be directed to the Chamber, and if the Court

22 believes he can't refer to rely on things, then so be it, the Court will

23 direct Mr. Beara, but I think it's unfair for the Prosecution to sternly

24 direct any witness, particularly a witness that was subpoenaed by this

25 Chamber.

Page 45799

1 JUDGE KWON: But it should be correct on the part of the witness

2 to ask permission from the Bench before he consults any documents, in the

3 circumstances in which we do not know what that document is about.

4 MR. OSTOJIC: And I understand that, Your Honour. I think the

5 confusion, and I'm not -- I think when he was asked to restate it, he was

6 trying to refresh his recollection because he didn't catch fully what he

7 stated about the document that he was referencing, so needs to apparently

8 rely on it. So he looked at it in order to answer fully the question by

9 the Chamber.

10 In any event, I would object to the OTP's instructions to the

11 witness.

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Beara, I would appreciate if could you answer

13 the question from your memory, and, if necessary, ask permission from the

14 Bench to consult the document to refresh your memory.

15 Do you understand that?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I understand, and I'm

17 sorry that I rifled through my papers.

18 At any rate, I said that this telegram exists which is in the

19 evidence in the case, a telegram from Dragomir Vasic, chief of the public

20 security centre of Zvornik who is linked to the Ministry of Interior,

21 saying that, due to the engagement of the VRS in the operation concerning

22 Zepa, the MUP forces took over assignments from the army, and that they

23 surrounded and liquidated 8.000 Muslims. That's what I wanted to say.

24 That document was shown during the trial, and later in some magical way,

25 disappeared.

Page 45800

1 MS. PACK:

2 Q. Mr. Beara --

3 A. Yes?

4 Q. -- I'm not asking about that specific documents in your case. I

5 meant to ask you, please, another -- I'm going ask you and remind you of

6 another passage in your Trial Chamber's judgement about you, what they

7 said in finding you guilty of genocide. It's paragraph 1318 of the

8 judgement. They said this:

9 "The factors which the Trial Chamber finds to be decisive in

10 finding that Beara had the requisite specific intent for genocide are the

11 scale and scope of the killing operation carried out with his knowledge

12 pursuant to his instructions and under his supervision, his extensive and

13 forceful participation in all components of the killing operation, his

14 demonstrated determination to kill as many as possible and his vital

15 contribution in overcoming hurdles and challenges to effective

16 implementation. Further, the systematic, exclusive targeting of

17 Bosnian Muslims, the repetition by Beara of destructive and

18 discriminatory acts and his words all evidence his genocidal intent.

19 Further, his participation in these killings with knowledge that they

20 would contribute to the destruction of the group also demonstrates his

21 genocidal intent. Accordingly, the Trial Chamber is satisfied beyond

22 reasonable doubt that Beara participated in the JCE to murder with

23 genocidal intent. He is therefore guilty of genocide."

24 You don't accept that finding?

25 A. I don't accept it at all. It is, indeed, written, but that's not

Page 45801

1 how it happened in that time.

2 Q. You don't --

3 A. We have led evidence to that effect, but, again, I say all that

4 we presented disappeared in some magical way. Why and how, I really

5 don't know.

6 Q. Your Trial Chamber --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The Prosecutor is reading

8 some paragraphs from the judgement and interpreters don't have the text

9 of the judgement at their disposal at all. Thank you.

10 MS. PACK: We can have it at 65 ter 25863. I wasn't going to

11 bring it up, but it's available there. Paragraph 1318 that I just read

12 is an English page, 532; B/C/S, page 535. I'm just going to refer to one

13 other small portion.

14 JUDGE KWON: But please read it very slowly.

15 MS. PACK: I will do. Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Your Trial Chamber found -- and this is at paragraph 1068, it

17 found this:

18 "It found that the heavy hand of the security branch was evident

19 throughout -- throughout, that is the killing operations. Beara, they

20 said, was at the centre of the killing operations with Popovic and

21 together you were responsible for overall planning and implementation

22 logistics, locations, personnel."

23 That's what they found. They said that you translated the murder

24 plan into actions. That is, together in Zvornik, Beara, Popovic, and

25 Nikolic translated the murder plan into actions.

Page 45802

1 That is an accurate statement of your role in the Srebrenica

2 events, isn't it?

3 A. No. I don't know, in fact, what you're asking me. Do you want

4 me to confirm that I orchestrated the murders?

5 Q. In your final trial brief, in your own trial, you denied all

6 knowledge at the time of the crimes perpetrated following the fall of

7 Srebrenica. Is that a position you maintain?

8 A. Of course.

9 I would kindly ask the Trial Chamber for permission to get a

10 paper out of my file regarding these allegations of the Prosecutor.

11 MS. PACK: I would ask that the witness just answer my question.

12 He's answered the question. I've got another one.

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, the question was whether you denied all

14 knowledge at the time of the crimes in your final brief, in your own

15 trial. I think can you answer the question without having to rely on the

16 document.

17 MS. PACK: Indeed, Mr. President, he has done. He said, of

18 course.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could not have known anything

20 about that at the time because I was not in the field. However, some

21 other people were in the field, and you can see that from the intercepts

22 where Pavle and Vuk are talking about it, and this Pavle on our side, who

23 later very persistently and constantly claimed that I and my men had been

24 organisers of the killings and he knew nothing about it, he is calling

25 members of the Muslim unit that came behind the Zvornik Brigade lines.

Page 45803

1 He is saying, I'll kill you in the woods, 100 men for one, and if that's

2 not clear to you, go to Orahovac and surrender. He didn't go -- he

3 didn't say, Go to Beara and surrender; he said, Go to Orahovac. And

4 Orahovac is an execution site, if somebody doesn't know it. That's what

5 I heard during the trial.

6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

7 Yes, please continue, Ms. Pack.

8 MS. PACK:

9 Q. Yes, Mr. Beara, I'm not asking about your analysis of the

10 evidence in your trial, just about you.

11 You -- you maintain then -- wait, please.

12 A. Well, you are analysing this.

13 Q. Wait, please. You raise an alibi Defence in your trial - I think

14 you just referred to it - you said that you were in Belgrade between the

15 13th and 14th. Is that something you still maintain? 13th and 14th of

16 July obviously. Yes?

17 A. Certainly.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly speak much closer to

19 the microphone. Thank you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I said of course I was in

21 Belgrade.

22 MS. PACK:

23 Q. And do you --

24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Beara, you are requested by the interpreter to

25 come closer to the microphone.

Page 45804

1 MS. PACK:

2 Q. Do you deny that thousands of men -- we don't need to be specific

3 about the numbers. Thousands of men were systematically murdered by

4 Bosnian Serb forces following the fall of Srebrenica. That's what your

5 Trial Chamber found. Do you deny that, the truth of that?

6 A. How can I deny the horrible things that happened in that civil

7 war, religious war? It is a curse, not warfare. What happened was

8 horrific --

9 Q. You recall --

10 A. -- terrifying. But in some magical way, in some mysterious way,

11 it was all pinned on three men from the security service of the VRS, men

12 who neither had the authority or subordinates who were murders and

13 prepared to kill. That's what I wanted to say.

14 Q. Your Trial Chamber found that you were omnipresent in the Zvornik

15 area, the scene of the mass killings in the Zvornik area. You would

16 reject that finding too?

17 A. Of course. That's another mysterious or magical turn that this

18 affair took.

19 The Prosecution witnesses who were called to testify to my

20 presence, or the documents presented to the Court and admitted into

21 evidence, were of such a nature that it's simply difficult to believe

22 because these witnesses always see me alone at this execution site,

23 staring into the distance, lost in my own thoughts, or they see me

24 walking about and then they say -- or, rather, somebody tells them, This

25 is Beara. But you never brought the person who told them that this

Page 45805

1 person was Beara. You only brought the people who recognised me, looking

2 at my back, but you never brought that person who told the witnesses that

3 who they were looking at was Beara. There was this nurse who provided

4 bandages somewhere to tie the hands of people who were being taken to be

5 executed also said she had seen me at the execution site. But the way

6 she put it, it was the investigator who gave her my name. What she

7 actually said was that she had seen some lieutenant-colonel or colonel,

8 and then she described me in various ways and then the investigator says,

9 Could it be Beara? And she replies, Yes, it could be. I know that Beara

10 from the Drina Corps, from the time when I was in the Drina Corps.

11 And that's one of the cases. There were more of the same kind.

12 MS. PACK: I've got no further questions.

13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Pack.

14 Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Your Excellency. Thank you.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE KWON: Well, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Beara. The

18 Chamber would like to thank you for your testimony.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just say one more thing,

20 please.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Beara, what do you want to say to us?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want to say this: When our trial

24 was nearing the end, you were on the Trial Chamber, some people spoke at

25 the end --

Page 45806

1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Beara --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes?

3 JUDGE KWON: -- you were examined by the accused and

4 cross-examined by the Prosecution. I think that's it. I -- I thought

5 you would say some words of usual things. I appreciate it. And I also

6 thank Mr. Ostojic for his co-operation and assistance.

7 MR. OSTOJIC: [Microphone not activated] Thank you,

8 Mr. President, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE KWON: You may be excused Mr. Beara.

10 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President --

11 THE WITNESS: May I go now?

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Beara.

13 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, the next witness was scheduled for

14 a little bit later because of the estimate, so if we could take a break

15 and as soon as he arrives -- he was told to arrive at 10.00, I think he

16 may be here a little earlier but if we can take a break until he arrives.

17 JUDGE KWON: Shall we take a break for half an hour? We will

18 resume at 10.00. We will have some shorter break afterwards.

19 Hearing adjourned.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 --- Break taken at 9.28 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 10.03 a.m.

23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Ostojic, the Chamber asked you to return to the

24 courtroom because there was one thing that I wanted to deal with in your

25 presence. That's about the request of Mr. Robinson to lift the

Page 45808

1 [The witness takes the stand]

2 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Mr. Mandic.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE KWON: Before we continue, in light of the submission of

5 the parties and counsel for Mr. Bera, we hereby lift the confidentiality

6 of Mr. Bera's evidence given in private session, as well as the

7 audio/video part of the proceedings. Of course, that includes the part

8 of today's hearing that was given -- conducted in private session as

9 well.

10 Yes, Mr. Karadzic please continue.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good morning, your

12 Excellencies. Good morning to all.

13 WITNESS: BOSKO MANDIC [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Mandic.

17 A. Good morning, Mr. President.

18 Q. Please, let us just take this slowly and let us pause.

19 You were asked -- or, rather, it was suggested to you that links

20 with Pale were better than what you had said. A decision on mobilisation

21 was shown here. Did you see many documents before the corridor came to

22 exist? How many documents from Pale did you examine at the Crisis Staff?

23 A. Well, I, quite simply, forgot. I mean, this document too. But I

24 don't remember that there were any documents or contacts, and I said

25 yesterday that, as far as I'm concerned, there weren't any contacts. I

Page 45809

1 think that we worked more on the basis of our own knowledge rather than

2 some instructions that could not have arrived from Pale.

3 Q. Thank you. We submitted a document here from my diary when I met

4 people from Prijedor on the first page -- or, rather, in the first

5 sentence it says:

6 "In relation to the 30th of May, the first 45 days without

7 contact with us."

8 How does that tally with your experience?

9 A. Well, that's the way it was. If it was recorded as such, that is

10 certainly the way it was.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D435, could that briefly be shown

13 to the witness.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. This is a record from a session of our government held on the

16 18th of June, 1992.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the last page, please.

18 The penultimate one in English, please.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. You said that there was a blockade in the Krajina. Could you

21 tell us, please, third from the bottom, that a helicopter is requested

22 from the army and the government would use that. And then the next one

23 says to do away with the blockade of the Bosanska Krajina, and the last

24 one, the government decided to take all measures, including military

25 measures, to deblockade the Bosnian Krajina and ensure regular food

Page 45810

1 supplies and other goods for the region?

2 Did the government have a basis for taking this kind of position

3 with regard to developments in the Krajina?

4 A. Yes. We were in a very awkward position. We were sealed off as

5 far as Serbia was concerned. And, on the other side, the Cazin Krajina

6 was armed and always prepared to attack Prijedor because they always

7 thought that that was part of Muslim territory.

8 The situation in the Krajina was such that there was barely any

9 food, basic supplies. Also, there was a shortage of medicine. We know

10 of the case of the 12 babies. Let me not go into all of that now.

11 How do I put this? Some people were careless and that made that

12 happen. And the international community could have made a step in that

13 direction at least through the Red Cross, in order to ensure some

14 medicine. Of course, certain activities were taken to open the corridor

15 which was a life-line for the Serb people, in order for the Serb people

16 to survive.

17 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether the Crisis Staff or other

18 authorities in Prijedor whether they had resources and then deprived the

19 population and detainees of that intentionally, and without any reason,

20 food, medicine energy, other resources --

21 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer the question.

22 Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

23 MS. GUSTAFSON: Sorry, the witness has made clear that he had

24 very little to do with the detention facilities. So before asking about

25 depriving detainees of food, et cetera, a foundational question should be

Page 45811

1 asked about the witness's knowledge about these matters.

2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm going to leave that aside. I'm

4 going to withdraw that as regards detainees. I'm talking about the

5 population.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Did the Crisis Staff do everything it could or they -- or did

8 they intentionally deprive the population of something that they could

9 have provided to them?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all unnecessary

11 microphones please be switched off. Thank you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Crisis Staff never denied

13 anything. In accordance with our abilities, we provided food to the

14 population, regardless of ethnicity.

15 A. Since I was commander of civilian protection, ex officio, then

16 together with the Red Cross, and that was within my purview, in fact,

17 wherever necessary as far as bread, flour, milk, diary products were

18 concerned, we provided that to the population - and how do I put this? -

19 to the collection centre of Trnopolje and persons who did not have food

20 at home, et cetera. So irrespective of ethnic background.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Thank you.

23 Yesterday you mentioned a neighbouring village. However, we did

24 not make it possible for you to finish. A Muslim village that was in the

25 neighbourhood that was well armed, what was the name of that village?

Page 45812

1 What happened to it?

2 A. That is Hambarine, the village of Carakovo, Zecovi. So that is

3 the belt above Tukovi where I lived.

4 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether other Muslim villages, those that

5 had handed over their weapons, whether they were attacked, whether they

6 had any fighting there Suha, Vapolje [phoen]. Can you remember some

7 others that were not involved in any kind of fighting?

8 A. For example, the village of Cela. There was no fighting there;

9 that is to say, people were loyal. They handed over their weapons. As a

10 matter of fact, I think that they even removed extremists from their

11 area. They didn't want to have any contact with them. For example, one

12 part is called Muslim Gomjenica. Also in Tukovi, too. There were no

13 problem there. To this day, people live there. I mean, they were

14 refugee for a while but they came back to their homes and that's where

15 they live now.

16 Q. Muslimanska Gomjenica that is not reflected in the transcript?

17 A. Yes, Muslimanska Gomjenica.

18 Q. Gomjenica?

19 A. We call it Gomjenica.

20 Q. What about this village of Cela, how big is that? What's the

21 population?

22 A. Well, I'm not very good like this. But like all the other

23 villages, Carakovo, Hambarine, so all of these villages are roughly --

24 well, it's very densely populated. Like Hambarine, Cela has a densely

25 populated centre.

Page 45813

1 Q. Can you tell us what this depended on, whether there would be any

2 fighting in a village? Did it depend on whether they would be attacked

3 or what?

4 A. It depended on the will of the population that lived there. The

5 Muslim population, I mean. If they were really in favour of life and

6 peace, remaining there in that area as neighbours, there was no problem

7 whatsoever. Even those who left asked their neighbours to take care of

8 their homes, you see? There were people who asked me to take care of

9 their houses. However, I was so busy that I could not take care of

10 anybody's house. I mean, I cannot be at work and take care of somebody's

11 house, but there were people who were not working and who were neighbours

12 and who took care of their other neighbours' homes.

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

14 A. You're welcome.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

17 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'd like to ask permission to re-cross-examine on

18 one point which was relating to the Muslim villages that -- the answer

19 about the Muslim villages for where there were no problems such as the

20 village of Cela. I'd like to show the witness one document and ask one

21 question, please.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.

24 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you. If we could have P3852, please.

25 Further cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

Page 45823

1 break whenever necessary.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for your understanding.

3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Pelic, please proceed.

4 MS. PELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Cross-examination by Ms. Pelic:

6 Q. Mr. Sipovac, first, I would really briefly like to deal with the

7 roles that you had and to clarify that issue.

8 According to the paragraph 2 of your statement, from

9 September 1984 until October 1991, you worked at the

10 Secretariat of National Defence in Prijedor as a clerical officer for

11 civil protection; correct?

12 A. I'm sorry, the interpretation just began with the words

13 "September 1984," and I didn't hear what you said before that. So I

14 heard in my headset the part where you say "from September 1984," but

15 what exactly?

16 Could you repeat that? I didn't hear the entire interpretation.

17 Q. No problem I will repeat again.

18 I would very briefly like to clarify the roles that you had.

19 According to the paragraph 2 of your statement, from September 1984 until

20 October 1991, you worked at the Secretariat of National Defence in

21 Prijedor as a clerical officer for civilian protection; correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And in your statement, you repeatedly state that you were a

24 clerical officer for the recruitment and mobilisation of conscripts under

25 the military territorial organ, which is also short as VTO.

Page 45824

1 Sir, but, in fact, you were not just a clerical officer. You

2 were the chief of the military territorial organ for mobilisation at the

3 Prijedor garrison, weren't you?

4 A. No, I was not the chief. I was the assistant. At VTO, I was

5 never a chief. The chief was Major Mile Stojanovic; he was chief of

6 section. And my direct superior in affairs of mobilisation was

7 Captain Micic. I worked there in that section from September 1984 until

8 August 1992, at the VTO, if you're talking about the VTO.

9 Q. You know Slavko Budimir, who, starting from the take-over of

10 Prijedor on 30th of April, 1992, was the secretary of the municipal

11 Secretariat for National Defence, don't you?

12 A. Yes, I know Slavko.

13 MS. PELIC: Could we please call up 65 ter 25872.

14 Q. And if we could go to page 1 -- transcript page 12859, lines 17

15 and 18. Transcript page 12859.

16 This is the testimony of Slavko Budimir in the Prosecutor versus

17 Stakic case, and when asked about your role, Mr. Budimir testified that

18 you were the chief of the VTO for mobilisation at the Prijedor garrison.

19 And that's correct, isn't it?

20 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me.

21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Probably the witness doesn't

22 understand English and you better tell the witness what this is about.

23 Yes, Mr. Robinson.

24 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, we would be objecting to any

25 reference to this transcript or the testimony of Mr. Budimir, because we

Page 45825

1 have made a -- a motion for a subpoena for Mr. Budimir to be a Defence

2 witness. And on the 22nd of January, 2013, the decision on accused's

3 motion to subpoena Slavko Budimir, the Trial Chamber denied that motion.

4 So we think it's unfair for the Prosecution to be able to use any portion

5 of Mr. Budimir's evidence without us having had the right to bring him

6 here.

7 JUDGE KWON: Could you expand on the reason why it would be

8 unfair.

9 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. Because we have asked for

10 Mr. Budimir to come and testify, probably he already would have

11 testified, and then we would have had a chance -- or any issues about his

12 position about this witness's position or anything he said to have been

13 fully explored. But now if you allow the Prosecution to use this

14 evidence without us having been able to call the witness, even though

15 this may be a minor point in principle, we don't believe that the

16 Prosecution should be able to use evidence from witnesses who we were

17 denied the opportunity to call. You might recall this came --

18 JUDGE KWON: I can understand your objection if the Prosecution

19 is minded to tender this document. This was -- the transcript into

20 evidence, but she is just putting the question about witness's position

21 at the time, and --

22 MR. ROBINSON: Well, she's making use of evidence that

23 essentially is not available to us. So in --

24 JUDGE KWON: I don't understand that this is not available to

25 you.

Page 45826

1 MR. ROBINSON: Well, the witness and his evidence is not

2 available to us because we tried to call this witness and you denied us

3 the right to call him. That's my point.

4 This issue came up once before with respect to

5 Mr. Tomo Sivic [phoen], a military judge whose document was attempted to

6 be used, and you denied the subpoena and you allowed the Prosecution to

7 proceed. But I wanted to maintain our objection, if nothing else but in

8 principle, that when a witness is not available to us because the Chamber

9 denied a subpoena, the Prosecution ought not to be able to ask questions

10 about events involving that witness.

11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I understand that. But would you like to make

12 any observations, Ms. Pelic?

13 Yes, Mr. Tieger.

14 MR. TIEGER: May I, Mr. President. First, may I respectfully

15 suggest that when Mr. Robinson knows that the issue has been ruled on

16 before, that if he wants simply to maintain his objection, which is

17 really not necessary, I believe. We crossed that road before. He

18 acknowledges that the Trial Chamber has expressed its opinion on this

19 issue and simply notes that, rather than impliedly seek reconsideration

20 without acknowledging that until the Trial Chamber presses him on the

21 issue.

22 Secondly, apart from the fact that the Trial Chamber has ruled on

23 it, the Trial Chamber's ruling was perfectly correct. The observations

24 that you made this morning, Mr. President, underpin that. Let's hear

25 what the witness has to say. His position may very well be, That's

Page 45827

1 exactly right. And we either get further evidence and information

2 which -- to which this Court is entitled, or we prevent a witness from

3 being able to testify contrary to information that has been elicited in

4 this institution before, without knowledge of the Trial Chamber.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber agrees with Mr. Tieger's observation.

7 There's no difficulty at all with the Prosecution putting this transcript

8 to the witness.

9 Please -- please continue, Ms. Pelic.

10 MS. PELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mr. Sipovac, Slavko Budimir testified in the Prosecutor versus

12 Stakic case, and I will quote now. When asked about your role,

13 Mr. Budimir testified:

14 "He was the chief of the military territorial organ for

15 mobilisation at the Prijedor garrison."

16 That's correct, sir?

17 A. No, that's not correct. And in my previous answer, I said that I

18 was never the chief of the military territorial organ in Prijedor. The

19 chief was Milivoj Stojanovic and his assistant for mobilisation was, I

20 believe, Captain Jovan Micic. That was a long time ago, and I was a desk

21 officer working on mobilisation affairs at the VTO in Prijedor, and that

22 organ covered the area of Prijedor, Sanski Most, Bosanska Dubica, and

23 Novi Grad. Those are the municipalities covered by the VTO based in

24 Prijedor. I don't think I need to repeat this anymore because I have

25 already given a solemn declaration to tell the truth and nothing but the

Page 45828

1 truth. I don't know why Mr. Budimir stated something like this. I did

2 not expect such questions so I did not bring my personal documentation,

3 and I could have, because I have all my letters of appointment. I can

4 provide them to the Court.

5 Q. Very well. You acknowledge in your statement under question

6 number 9 that you attended the 15th of May, 1992, meeting of the

7 Council for National Defence of the Prijedor Municipal Assembly where you

8 reported on the mobilisation, didn't you?

9 A. I'm not sure it was on the 15th because in some previous trials,

10 Defence teams told me that my name was mentioned as one of those present.

11 I don't remember it, but I was present perhaps only in situations when

12 briefing was provided on mobilisation, otherwise I would not attend. But

13 these meetings discussing national defence discussed issues of

14 mobilisation, which was very topical at the time.

15 MS. PELIC: Could we please call up P03529.

16 And can I correct the transcript: P03529.

17 Q. Sir, these are the -- the minutes of the 4th meeting of the

18 Council for National Defence of the Prijedor Municipal Assembly held on

19 15th of May, 1992, that I just mentioned to you. And if you look at the

20 list of people attending, you will see your name noted as present.

21 That's correct? Just yes or no.

22 A. Cedo Sipovac, yes, I see it.

23 Q. And if you look at the agenda, under item 2, it's "mobilisation

24 in the municipality."

25 MS. PELIC: And if we could go in English on the page 2, please,

Page 45829

1 and B/C/S, it's still page 1. Last paragraph in B/C/S.

2 Q. Sir, your name is mentioned there as one of the persons involved

3 in the discussion on the mobilisation in the Prijedor municipality;

4 correct?

5 A. I didn't understand. It says "conclusions." We're still on the

6 first page. The proposal -- the proposed decision on the organisation

7 and functioning of the Crisis Staff is accepted with a proviso that the

8 proposed composition of the staff is supplemented with the representative

9 of the garrison, Prijedor.

10 Yes. And then we -- yes, mobilisation and then I see my name.

11 Sorry, I took time to read this text.

12 Yes, the last in the third line is my name. I agree.

13 Q. And this is, indeed, the meeting that we are discussing on the

14 15th of May, 1992, at which you reported on the mobilisation; correct?

15 Just yes or no.

16 A. Probably. I had no other role in that, except to discuss the

17 carrying out of mobilisation.

18 Q. And this mobilisation that happened in May 1992 in the Prijedor

19 municipality was conducted pursuant to the decision of the

20 Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina Assembly; right?

21 A. I did not receive any interpretation. I can't understand

22 English, and I did not receive any interpretation.

23 Q. Sir, are you receiving translation now?

24 A. Yes. That mobilisation was not ordered by the autonomous region.

25 Mobilisation was an ongoing process, which started in 1991, and it lasted

Page 45830

1 for as long as the need to replenish war units existed. It went on

2 throughout 1991 and 1992. I'm not familiar with any orders. The only

3 order I am familiar with was the order that was issued on the

4 21st of May. That process was ongoing. It was a process that went on

5 uninterruptedly. I really don't know what mobilisation order you are

6 talking about.

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes: The word was

8 "uninterruptedly."

9 MS. PELIC: Could we please call up P03535.

10 Q. Sir, these are the minutes of the second session of the

11 National Defence Council of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor held on

12 5th of May, 1992.

13 If you could please take a look at a conclusion number 2, it's on

14 page 1, both in English and B/C/S.

15 It states and I will --

16 JUDGE KWON: Do we see his name here as being present?

17 MS. PELIC: No, he was not present.

18 JUDGE KWON: All right. Please continue.

19 MS. PELIC:

20 Q. I will quote the conclusion number 2:

21 "The mobilisation orders following from the decision of the

22 Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina Assembly are to be carried out,

23 when the actual situation in the municipality renders it necessary, in

24 accordance with requirements and a special plan, through call-up papers

25 issued by the Municipal Secretariat for National Defence."

Page 45831

1 And, in fact, this just shows that mobilisation was carried out

2 pursuant to the decision of the Autonomous Region Bosanska Krajina

3 Assembly, wasn't it?

4 A. You're asking me something that we can read here. But I was not

5 in charge of mobilisation. I didn't participate in that mobilisation. I

6 did not receive any such decisions or order either from the chief or

7 anybody else. This was a position of the council which considered

8 mobilisation, and it was its right. I don't know how it happened. This

9 is what you're saying. This is what I read here, but I don't know. I

10 can't comment upon this because I don't know. I didn't -- I don't know.

11 I didn't participate in that. I didn't work on that. I told you when I

12 received the mobilisation order on the 21st of May,

13 2002 [as interpreted], that was an order for general mobilisation, which

14 I received from my superior officers.

15 Q. But on the 15th of May, 1992, you were at the meeting, the fourth

16 meeting of this council, and you reported on the mobilisation. You just

17 confirmed that, and that's the truth; correct?

18 A. Madam, I confirmed that, and I repeat -- I repeat mobilisation

19 was a continuous process. It was an ongoing process from the moment when

20 received a -- a mobilisation signal. It went on until there was a need

21 to replenish war units. It started in 1991 and went on throughout 1992,

22 1993, 1994, and so on and so forth. I told you what I knew; i.e., I

23 shared with you the information that I had about the situation on the

24 ground, and this is what I stand by. But this was not done pursuant to

25 this decision but, rather, pursuant to the requirements of the units.

Page 45832

1 And I apologise for using the word "insist," but you insist upon me

2 telling that this was what I had in my hands, but, no, I didn't. That

3 was never issued to me from my superior officers.

4 Q. I will move to another topic that I wish to discuss with you.

5 In your statement, under questions 5 and 6, you stated that you

6 don't have any facts about anyone replacing Muslim officers by Serbian

7 officers, including replacement of Colonel Muharem Efendic by Serbian

8 officer Colonel Vladimir Radisic, in "a planned fashion with a purpose."

9 Let's look at a couple of examples. On the day of the take-over of

10 Prijedor, 30th of April, 1992, secretary of the Secretariat for National

11 Defence, Becir Medunjanin, was replaced by Slavko Budimir, wasn't he?

12 A. According to you, yes; and according to the documents that I

13 have, yes. I didn't know about that, but that had nothing whatsoever to

14 do with what I did. I was a member of the armed forces of the JNA, and I

15 can tell you that had nothing whatsoever to do with anything. I

16 apologise. Don't switch off my microphone. That had nothing to do with

17 the part of the armed forces and the army. That was the Secretariat for

18 National Defence which was in charge of civilian structures and here

19 we're talking about the issue whether there were any shakeups in the

20 army. I'm claiming that there were no shakeups in the army, as far as I

21 know, and when I was appointed chief, that was never done. And there are

22 actually examples to the contrary.

23 Q. Sir, Becir Medunjanin was a Muslim; right?

24 A. It is not a pleasant thing to talk about somebody's ethnic

25 affiliations without that person confirming that, but I will accept what

Page 45833

1 you say, that he was a Muslim.

2 I know Becir Medunjanin personally and that's why I say what I

3 do. I used to know him.

4 Q. And, indeed, Slavko Budimir was a Serb; correct?

5 A. You said he was. Well, I suppose he still is. I don't know

6 whether he changed his ethnic affiliations. But I'm telling you that it

7 is not a good thing to comment upon somebody's ethnic affiliations

8 without consulting with that person first.

9 Q. Well, also Vahid Ceric was dismissed from the post of assistant

10 commander for the organisation of mobilisation and personnel affairs by

11 the Executive Committee of the Serbian municipality of Prijedor on

12 5th of May, 1992, wasn't he?

13 A. Madam, your basic question was about the army, and I told you

14 that there were no such things in the army, i.e., in war units. What

15 you're asking me now are questions that pertain to civilian structures.

16 If you're talking about the executive board, that was within its purview.

17 It was not within the purview of the JNA or the army. It was within the

18 purview of the structures, and I really can't comment upon that because

19 it is not pleasant for me to comment on that because I wasn't there. I

20 did not participate in that process. If there were any such things - I

21 suppose that there were - there must be a document to that effect, but

22 that had nothing to do with my job. It had nothing to do with war units,

23 with the JNA, and armed forces, and this was done within the purview of

24 civilian structures. That was what they did. And why things like that

25 were done, I don't know.

Page 45834

1 MS. PELIC: Could we please call up P03554.

2 Q. Sir, this is the Serbian municipality of

3 Prijedor Executive Committee decision dated 5th of May, 1992, signed by

4 the president of the Executive Committee, Dr. Milan Kovacevic.

5 Item 1 of this decision states that Vahid Ceric is dismissed from

6 his post.

7 And item 2 states that Major Radmilo Zeljaja shall be responsible

8 for the implementation of this decision.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. Asked and answered.

10 The witness does not know anything about what was going on in the

11 civilian structure of power.

12 JUDGE KWON: He might be refreshed by this document.

13 MS. PELIC: And I haven't asked my question yet.

14 JUDGE KWON: Please -- please continue. Objection overruled.

15 MS. PELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Sir, Major Radmilo Zeljaja who was in charge of implementing this

17 decision that we are looking at was in the 43rd Motorised Brigade;

18 correct?

19 A. According to this decision, that was the case. I'm not a lawyer

20 but this is a confusion of authorities. Zeljaja couldn't deal with that.

21 I am familiar with this part of a job, given what I did. I don't know

22 why something drafted this. I won't go into that. But this should not

23 have been written.

24 The executive board, and I can explain, I'm not a lawyer by

25 profession but I can see that these are two totally different bodies

Page 45835

1 which have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. The president of

2 the executive board is under the authority of civilian structures and the

3 Assembly. And what about the authorities of the TO? The civilian

4 structures appointed employees and officers in TO Staffs, and

5 Radmilo Zeljaja, who was a major and who was my commander and my superior

6 later on, had nothing to do with that. The army and -- and the civilian

7 structures could not overlap. If it happened later, then, yes. But

8 since it happened when it did, knowing what I did from -- knowing what I

9 knew from practice, and formally and legally these are two completely

10 different bodies. You can't be tasked with doing something if you're in

11 the army, and to be tasked with things such as appointments. Those were

12 within the purview of civilian structure. And Vahid Ceric, whom I know,

13 worked in the TO Staff. He was one of the officers in the TO, and

14 Radmila Zeljaja was in the JNA, and there the authorities are completely

15 different.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to slow down.

17 Thank you.

18 MS. PELIC:

19 Q. Sir, the interpreters are kindly asking you to slow down when

20 you're providing your answers.

21 A. I apologise. I apologise. I can repeat, if necessary.

22 Q. There's no need to repeat the answer.

23 So, contrary to your position, this is one more example of

24 replacement based on ethnicity, isn't it?

25 A. For the third time, I repeat. I do not want to provide such

Page 45836

1 comments here because it is not a proper thing to talk about somebody's

2 ethnic affiliations based on names. It may be done in some cultures but

3 I'm not willing to do that. There were no examples in the army where I

4 worked of such a nature. If you want me to provide evidence to the

5 contrary, I can. Such things didn't happen. I don't want to comment

6 upon this. I don't want to say, I don't want to confirm that this was

7 based on ethnic affiliations. I don't want to comment upon that because

8 I cannot recognise that pattern in that, because you can't say that this

9 was based on ethnic affiliations.

10 Please. Tell me if you can, why do you think that it was done on

11 ethnic affiliations? Because Vahid is Vahid? I don't see any

12 explanation. I don't see a statement of reasons that would point to that

13 fact. And I can't confirm your assertion that this was done based on

14 ethnic affiliation.

15 Q. Sir, Vahid Ceric is a Muslim; right?

16 A. Madam, you are persistent. You're trying to convince me of

17 something that I can't accept. I can understand that you are judging by

18 the name, but I don't see it in the document. I knew Vahid, I worked

19 with him, I co-operated with him, but I don't want to -- to approach the

20 problem in such a way. I cannot confirm that he was removed because he

21 was a Muslim. I don't know that he was a Muslim. I don't know whether

22 he declared himself as a Muslim. I have never held in my hands any

23 document in which it says that he, himself, declared as a Muslim. If you

24 ask me similar questions in the future, then I can share with you my own

25 personal reasons for believing that you are wrong and why this is not so.

Page 45837

1 Q. Sir, I would like to deal with the last topic.

2 In your statement, pages 6 to 8, you stated that you have no

3 knowledge about the crimes that happened in the Prijedor municipality,

4 according to the indictment in this case. You also stated that had this

5 had been the policy of the civilian or police authorities at a local or

6 municipal level, the defence structures would have known about it.

7 Well, this Trial Chamber has received a large amount of evidence

8 of the crimes committed in the Prijedor municipality. We just talked

9 about replacement of your colleague, Becir Medunjanin. The Trial Chamber

10 has heard the evidence that he was tortured and killed in the Omarska

11 camp.

12 MS. PELIC: And for the benefit of the Court and the accused,

13 that can be found at confidential P00707, transcript page 2728 and 2730

14 to 2738.

15 Q. Sir, you are aware of the fate of the head of the organisation

16 that you used to work for, aren't you?

17 A. I am aware of it from what you have told me. I really didn't

18 know about that before.

19 What I would say as a human being about him that he was very fair

20 in dealings with myself. In terms of humanity, he was very fair in the

21 dealings with me. I'm sorry that he ended up like that. I didn't know.

22 Sometimes when I watch television I hear the family name Medunjanin, and

23 I thought that I might get in contact with that man because I thought

24 that that may be his son who plays football. He was chief of secretariat

25 when I left the secretariat, and he was very fair when he offered me to

Page 45838

1 help -- that he would help me if I had any problems. He was a very fair

2 person, and I'm sorry that he ended up the way he did.

3 Q. Sir, this Trial Chamber has also heard evidence that

4 Mr. Medunjanin's wife, Sadeta Medunjanin, was taken out from the Omarska

5 camp and subsequently exhumed from a mass grave.

6 MS. PELIC: And again, for the benefit of the Court and accused,

7 that can be found at Exhibit P03538, pages 28 to 29; Exhibit P04855,

8 page 23; and Exhibit P04853, page 15.

9 Q. Sir, you are aware of this, aren't you?

10 A. I don't see the document. I only see that those documents are

11 mentioned in English. I don't know about his wife. I really don't know.

12 I can't talk about things I don't know. I can only say that I'm sorry,

13 not only for them, but for anybody.

14 I don't have the translation of the documents that you have just

15 mentioned, and I heard you saying that the body of his wife was exhumed.

16 I don't have any of the documents. I'm not aware of any of the

17 documents. I don't know what happened, and I don't have the references

18 to those documents translated into my own language.

19 Q. Sir, I was just citing to the evidence before this Trial Chamber

20 and without intending to call it up.

21 My question was: Are you aware that Sadeta Medunjanin was killed

22 and subsequently taken from Omarska camp and subsequently exhumed? You

23 were aware of that, aren't you?

24 A. I apologise, I didn't understand your question. While you were

25 providing your comments within that context you said that that happened.

Page 45839

1 The question was not put to -- put to me that way or I didn't understand

2 it. After what you just said, I understand. You claimed that this was

3 established here during the trial, but I can tell you that I didn't know

4 about that, believe me.

5 Q. You also talk about the knowledge of the defence structures, of

6 the crimes happening in the Prijedor municipality.

7 MS. PELIC: Could we please call up P03662.

8 Q. Sir, this is the 1st Krajina Corps Command regular combat report

9 sent to the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina Army Main Staff on

10 31st of May, 1992.

11 MS. PELIC: And if we could go to page 2 of English and page 3 of

12 B/C/S.

13 Q. If you could take a look at the last paragraph in B/C/S. And, in

14 English, it's the middle paragraph.

15 And according to this document, the 1st Krajina Corps Command

16 reported that:

17 "After the actions in Kozarac, Kljuc and Sanski Most, some

18 conscripts of Muslim nationality had asked to be released from their

19 units and had expressed their dissatisfaction with the massive

20 destruction of their towns."

21 Sir, as it is clear from this document, the defence structures

22 were well aware of the mass destruction of Kozarac, weren't they?

23 A. Please bear with me. I'm reading.

24 You referred to questions 7 and 8; right?

25 Q. No --

Page 45840

1 A. Let me see --

2 Q. -- I'm referring to pages 6 to 8 of your statement, sir. And

3 questions are 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. And everything under "incidents in the

4 indictment."

5 A. Yes, in the report of the command of the 1st Corps that you have

6 shown to me, I believe that it would be wrong not to have drafted such a

7 report, but this is a report on the situation on the ground, and it is

8 only normal that the report was drafted. It is not normal what was

9 happening but it is normal that a report was drafted in the way it was

10 and that it was sent to the superior command. It's the --

11 Q. Sir -- sir, that was not my question.

12 A. -- knowledge or this information of the things that were

13 happening on the ground.

14 Please, please, you asked -- I apologise. You offered me to

15 provide an answer about the state of morale and to tell you something

16 about the system of reporting and about the state of the morale and you

17 quoted --

18 Q. Sir --

19 A. -- the place where --

20 Q. I will stop you there, sir, and I will repeat my question again.

21 A. Please, please.

22 Q. My --

23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I think he was coming to the

24 question -- to the question -- to -- to -- to answer to the question you

25 have put.

Page 45841

1 Yes, please continue. But, in the future, please make your

2 answer simpler.

3 Yes, please proceed.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I tried to be simple,

5 but I was looking for the questions that were put to me in the statement

6 to which I answered, and the question as put to me here whether the

7 Crisis Staffs in --

8 THE INTERPRETER: This is impossible to interpret.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Did they have knowledge -- or,

10 rather, that I had knowledge that the civilian structures did that and

11 that did they know, and so on and so forth, the system of defence I

12 provided an answer --

13 JUDGE KWON: You are speaking too fast, far too fast for the

14 interpreters to catch up.

15 So I will ask Ms. Pelic to put her question again and if you

16 could answer the question.

17 Yes, Ms. Pelic.

18 MS. PELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

20 MS. PELIC:

21 Q. Sir, my question was really simple, and I would really kindly ask

22 you to give a simple answer.

23 This combat report of the 1st Krajina Corps shows that the

24 defence structures were well aware of the destruction -- of the mass

25 destruction of Kozarac; correct?

Page 45842

1 A. This report shows that -- it says so in the report but in the way

2 you formulated your question you said something else. There were no

3 planned activities, and that's the answer that -- that I gave. To the

4 system of the defence, there were no planned activities. And as for what

5 happened on the ground --

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be -- I have an objection.

7 The report says what the soldiers of the Army of Republika Srpska Muslim

8 ethnicity think about the destruction. This is the position of -- so we

9 have to be precise when putting questions to the witness.

10 JUDGE KWON: No, I don't see the basis for your objection.

11 Yes, please continue, Ms. Pelic.

12 MS. PELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Sir, let's take a look at one more example of what the defence

14 structures knew.

15 MS. PELIC: Could we please call up D02040.

16 JUDGE KWON: What do you have in mind when you refer to "defence

17 structures"?

18 MS. PELIC: I'm citing by the Defence -- evidence of the witness

19 in his Defence statement.

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you. Yes.

21 Please continue.

22 MS. PELIC: [Microphone not activated] Thank you. Thank you,

23 Your Honours.

24 Q. Sir, this is an extraordinary report of the

25 22nd Light Infantry Brigade sent to the 1st Krajina Corps command

Page 45843

1 intelligence and security division. It's dated 21st of August, 1992, and

2 type signed commander Lieutenant-Colonel Bosko Peulic. Commander Peulic

3 reports to the 1st KK that on the 21st of August, 1992, a combined

4 refugee convoy was moving in the direction of Travnik over Vlasic

5 mountain. Convoy was escorted by the Prijedor and Sanski Most police.

6 It stopped in the area of Koricanske Stijene and around 150 refugees were

7 taken out and genocide against civilians was committed by killing them in

8 various ways and throwing them into the river canyon."

9 Sir, it's clear from this document that the defence structures

10 knew that the police members participated in the Koricanske Stijene

11 massacre, isn't it? Just yes or no. Thank you.

12 A. Well, this is a telegram stating knowledge that something had

13 happened.

14 But, Your Honours, would you allow me to give an explanation,

15 because another question continues along the same lines.

16 The questions that were put to me under 12, 13, and 14, guided me

17 in the following way: There was no plan in the defence structures that

18 supported that and I stand by that. Now this, what was put to me now --

19 JUDGE KWON: I don't think Ms. Pelic asked -- asked you anything

20 about the plan. The question was whether is it clear from -- whether

21 it's clear from this document that defence structure, which is the term

22 you used in your statement, knew that the police members participate in

23 Koricanske Stijene massacre.

24 Do you agree or not?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not very legible, but if that

Page 45844

1 is what is contained in the telegram, then that is the knowledge that

2 they had, that that was the situation on the ground.

3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.

4 MS. PELIC: Thank you.

5 Q. Sir, in fact, even Defence Witness Slobodan Avlijas testified in

6 this case, transcript pages 35187 to 35188, that the entire

7 Republika Srpska knew that this massacre had been perpetrated by members

8 of the SJB Prijedor. Everyone knew about the Koricanske Stijene

9 massacre; that's correct?

10 A. The massacre that occurred at Koricanske Stijene, that's a fact.

11 That happened. I don't know when people found out about it, to tell you

12 the truth. I don't know when I found out. I don't know how much later.

13 So that's a fact.

14 I'm not talking about any kind of participation of mine or

15 anything like that. I'm talking about finding out when that had

16 happened.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please

18 be asked to speak slowly again.

19 MS. PELIC:

20 Q. Sir, contrary to your statement given to the Defence, even

21 Milomir Stakic testified in this case as a Defence witness at transcript

22 page 45269, and I quote:

23 "It is a fact that crimes were committed. It is a fact that they

24 were expelled from their homes and thereby compelled to leave the area."

25 Mr. Stakic also agreed that "most of them left out of the fear,

Page 45845

1 and so on and so forth."

2 But the crimes that Mr. Stakic and Mr. Avlijas acknowledged, the

3 crimes that were known to the 1st KK command, the crimes that befell the

4 family of your colleague, those are all things that escaped your

5 attention and you didn't know about them, according to your statement

6 given to the Defence; correct?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

8 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Pelic, did the witness deny that there was any

9 crime?

10 MS. PELIC:

11 Q. Sir, if could you --

12 MS. PELIC: Yes, Your Honour, at page 8 of the Defence statement.

13 JUDGE KWON: Paragraph.

14 MS. PELIC: After the question number 15 goes into incidents in

15 the indictment subparagraph. And the witness claimed that he has no

16 knowledge of the murders that allegedly happened in Prijedor

17 municipality. And murders --

18 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Where is it?

19 MS. PELIC: Last three paragraphs, four paragraphs -- three --

20 three paragraphs of the Defence statement.

21 JUDGE KWON: So in para 15?

22 MS. PELIC: Under "incidents in the indictment." Attachment A.

23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My objection is: How is that

25 contrary to - page 49, line 24 -- how are these documents contrary to the

Page 45846

1 statement?

2 MS. PELIC: If I may --

3 JUDGE KWON: Did you ask the witness whether he knew the massacre

4 at Koricanske Stijene?

5 MS. PELIC: Sir, if I may answer --

6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

7 MS. PELIC: Your Honour, massacre of Koricanske Stijene is

8 included in our indictment --

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Whether -- my question is whether you put that

10 question to the witness.

11 MS. PELIC: The Defence did under murders linked to the

12 facilities of imprisonment --

13 JUDGE KWON: No, no, no. Did you ever ask to the witness whether

14 he knew of this massacre at that time.

15 MS. PELIC: I can do that now.

16 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I don't think you put it to the witness.

17 Yes.

18 MS. PELIC:

19 Q. Sir --

20 MS. PELIC: Thank you.

21 Q. -- in 1992, were you aware of the Koricanske Stijene massacre?

22 A. I cannot remember, really, when I found out about that, whether

23 it was 1992, 1993, or 1994. I really don't know. But absolutely. I

24 mean, I was not in this system at that moment that I had some knowledge

25 beforehand. I think it was later on, really. At that moment, if that's

Page 45847

1 the question that's being put to me, I really did not have any knowledge

2 about that. The fact is that that happened and I'm not denying that --

3 JUDGE KWON: But, Mr. -- Mr. Sipovac, you now know what happened.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Later on, I found out. It

5 wasn't now that I found out. I found out later. I cannot remember

6 exactly when, but I did find out that that had happened.

7 JUDGE KWON: What did you mean when you say "I do not have any

8 knowledge of murders"?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This question that was put to me:

10 Did you have any knowledge. That meant at the commission of such a

11 thing, did I know about that. I really did not know. I was not in that

12 kind of system, and I have no reason to evade anything. Had I known --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not understand the

14 end of the sentence.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The transcript is not good enough.

16 The witness said that his understanding was whether he had known

17 at the time, whether he had knowledge at the time, that this had happened

18 in Prijedor. It did not pertain to Koricanske Stijene. That is far

19 away. 150 or 200 --

20 JUDGE KWON: That part is not a proper intervention.

21 Do you have further questions, Ms. Pelic?

22 MS. PELIC: No, Your Honour. Thank you.

23 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellency. And then you

25 decide when the break should be taken and when we should continue.

Page 45848

1 JUDGE KWON: I think it's -- it's time now to have a break,

2 albeit short -- shortly.

3 We'll have a break for 15 minutes. And then we'll have lunch

4 break later on, as usual.

5 --- Break taken at 11.40 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 11.58 a.m.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sipovac, you were asked about your position.

11 Can you tell us how many desks there were at the VTO?

12 A. Well, there was a total of eight, nine, or ten employees. I'd

13 have to do the counting yet again, name by name in order to remember.

14 Between eight and ten.

15 Q. And you were in charge of which department or desk?

16 A. Mobilisation.

17 Q. What about others? Were they in charge of something else?

18 A. Recruitment. The VTO worked on recruitment and mobilisation

19 only.

20 Q. We really have to speak slowly and pause.

21 So if Mr. Budimir said that you were in charge of mobilisation,

22 whatever the interpretation may be, did he say that you were for

23 mobilisation?

24 A. [No interpretation]

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the

Page 45849

1 answer, the beginning.

2 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat your answer, and speak more slowly,

3 please.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

5 I was the desk officer for mobilisation. And Captain Micic was

6 assistant chief for mobilisation. So, as for that part, where I worked,

7 the mobilisation department, there were three or four other desk officers

8 who worked together with me.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Thank you. In my question, lines 2, 3, 4, it is not recorded if

11 Mr. Budimir said that you were for mobilisation, whatever he'd call you,

12 chief, head, et cetera. Does that mean that that is correct, that within

13 that framework, you were just for mobilisation?

14 A. Yes. But I was not the chief. The question that was put to me,

15 as I understood it, was that I was chief of the VTO. I was not chief of

16 the VTO. I was a desk officer in the military territorial organ.

17 Q. What about Becir Medunjanin? What was he before the war?

18 A. Before the war, since I knew him, I think he was the principal of

19 the school in Kozarac. He was a professor -- or, rather, a teacher of

20 mathematics and physics. Then, after the multi-party elections, he

21 became secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence in Prijedor.

22 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us the following: Mobilisation

23 was discussed here as an ongoing process and also references were made to

24 a declaration of general mobilisation. Can you tell the Trial Chamber

25 whether that is one and the same thing; and if there's a difference, tell

Page 45850

1 us what the difference is.

2 A. Well, this is the difference: Mobilisation in terms of its

3 extent can be full mobilisation or partially mobilisation. In terms of

4 communication it can be general or public -- or, rather, it can be

5 public. I mean, it can be secret too, if call-up papers are delivered in

6 person. So the distinction in terms of the question that was put to me,

7 there was partially mobilisation of particular war-time units. There was

8 a request to mobilise them and that went on from the moment when it was

9 declared. It went on in continuity until the war-time units were fully

10 manned.

11 On the 21st of May, there was general -- or, rather, public

12 mobilisation because then all military-age military conscripts were

13 duty-bound to report to military organs, so that they could be recorded

14 as military conscripts, they could be given war-time assignments if they

15 did not have one, and then be sent on wherever necessary, war-time units,

16 or other duties that are in accordance with the plan.

17 Q. Thank you. What was included in the duties of Mr. Medunjanin?

18 However, before that, I'd like to ask you something else. Did you know

19 who Muhamed Cehajic was and what his duty was? And then I also have to

20 ask you what his ethnic background would be on the basis of his name.

21 A. Muhamed Cehajic was a professor, high school teacher. After the

22 multi-party elections, he was head of the Prijedor municipality.

23 Q. Thank you. Enes Kursumovic, did you know?

24 A. No. That name does not ring a bell at all. I cannot remember.

25 I don't know.

Page 45851

1 Q. All right. Fikret Kadiric and Sakib Besic?

2 A. Fikret Kadiric, I think he worked in the police, at the Prijedor

3 police station that is. And Sakib was at the TO Staff. He was

4 commander, head. Just before that, he had retired. I cannot remember

5 exactly.

6 Q. Thank you. I find this embarrassing but I have to ask you this.

7 Does -- do these names sound like Muslim names?

8 A. Well, in respect of the previous questions, I said that it is

9 very awkward to speak about ethnic background on the basis of names only.

10 Through the records, the military records, one can see that military

11 conscripts, once they are recorded for the first time, they should say

12 what their ethnic affiliations is. I have already said that particular

13 people have a particular tradition culture, customs, habits. So, for

14 example, in the Orthodox world, if Krsta is a name, then in the Islamic

15 world, Muhamed is a name. So then on the basis of that, you can judge

16 the ethnic background.

17 Q. So what would be the duty, the work of the secretary of

18 National Defence, the post held by Mr. Becir Medunjanin, the person that

19 you were asked about?

20 A. Well, the duty of the secretary is, first of all, to be in charge

21 of the organ and to carry out measures and activities that fall within

22 the general framework of the organ -- or, rather, the Secretariat of

23 National Defence at the time. Among other things, they were duty-bound

24 in addition to the recruitment obligation and the planning obligation,

25 there was the obligation to mobilise war-time units for civilian defence,

Page 45852

1 Territorial Defence, units for reporting and surveillance, work

2 obligation, and so on and so forth, as far as I can remember right now.

3 Q. Thank you. Was it his duty to carry out the constitutional and

4 legal obligation to contribute to the defence of the country?

5 A. As a supervisor in that position it was his duty to carry out

6 these obligations that had to be in according with the law and in

7 accordance with the constitution, so his duty was to monitor the

8 implementation of plans and programmes in that field.

9 Q. Thank you. And what is this legitimate military formation that

10 he was supposed to service at the level of the municipality?

11 A. All war-time units were legitimate, if we're talking about 1991,

12 and I am talking about 1991, up until May/June 1992. So these are

13 war-time units, units of the Territorial Defence, units for reporting and

14 surveillance, then units of the civilian protection, then work obligation

15 units. So that would be manning. Now, as far as planning and manning of

16 war-time units is concerned, that too.

17 Q. Which army?

18 A. The JNA at the time, still.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown

21 1D16050. While we're waiting for this document -- 16050, if it was not

22 written down correctly. 16050.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. To the best of your knowledge, were people treated on the basis

25 of their religious affiliation or what they did?

Page 45853

1 A. Are you referring to the JNA or is this a general question?

2 Q. The part of the authorities where you had insight.

3 A. That part, absolutely. I can give examples, too, of officers and

4 other persons who, according to war-time assignment, were in the

5 43rd Motorised Brigade and in other units. And in the 43rd, I claim with

6 certainty that that was the approach. Those who had a war-time

7 assignment in 1990 or 1991, it doesn't matter, and who responded to

8 call-up when mobilisation was carried out, well, in the command of the

9 brigade itself, I'm sorry, as I've already said that I'm approaching the

10 problem this way, but I had the records before me so I can say that with

11 certainty. There were Croats, there were Muslims, and there were persons

12 of other ethnic backgrounds. And I don't know if I have to mention them

13 by name. I don't really want to hurt these people in any way, but I have

14 their records where they, themselves, stated what their ethnic background

15 was.

16 The chief of the air defence system was a Croat. The operations

17 officer who drew work maps, plans, and so on, according to the records

18 there was a Muslim. The other operations officer for moral affairs was a

19 Croat. In the brigade itself, in the command, there were assistant

20 commanders who had mixed marriages. So I'm saying this with certainty,

21 within the unit itself in 1991, according to the records, the official

22 records, there were Croats and Muslims there during 1992. And that can

23 be checked in the records absolutely. There was an increasing number of

24 these units coming into the 43rd Prijedor Brigade. I claim that with

25 full certainty and that can be checked.

Page 45854

1 Q. Thank you. Could you please focus on this attachment to the

2 criminal report where it says that these are the names of the organisers

3 of the armed rebellion in Prijedor and the killing of JNA soldiers in

4 Hambarine. Number 3, the name we see is Becir Medunjanin. Is that the

5 same Becir Medunjanin, or were there several of them? It says here

6 secretary of the National Defence Secretariat of the

7 Prijedor Municipal Assembly.

8 A. His name is written here. Now whether he was involved in that, I

9 mean, really, I'm taken aback by this, frankly speaking. Him being

10 involved in that? Well, if it is stated here, then I accept it as a

11 fact.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted.

14 JUDGE KWON: Do we know from this document what this document is

15 about? This is an annex to what?

16 Mr. Karadzic.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Criminal report. After the killing

18 of the soldiers in Hambarine and after it was dealt with, the criminal

19 report was compiled. And this is an annex to the criminal report,

20 listing the names of the persons who are responsible for that crime.

21 JUDGE KWON: So you're tendering this page, page 1 of this

22 document?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe it would be useful,

24 Excellency, for you to have the document in its entirety. Because this

25 events is very important and it is often mentioned during the trial.

Page 45855

1 JUDGE KWON: Do you --

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And also it can show whether the

3 basis for bringing these people in was religious affiliation or crimes.

4 JUDGE KWON: Are -- the names do not arise from the cross.

5 Do you have any objection to the admission of page 1 of this

6 document, Ms. Pelic.

7 MS. PELIC: Your Honour, the witness didn't testify anything to

8 the document except confirming the fact that what's already written and

9 in the record read by Mr. Karadzic.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive the page 1 of this document.

12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D4231, Your Honours.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Sipovac, records were shown to you from the meetings of the

16 Council for National Defence of the municipality. Can you tell us

17 briefly what kind of body this was; did we establish at the beginning of

18 the war; and, generally speaking, who regulates this matter?

19 A. The National Defence Council is an organ of the assembly, and

20 members of the council serve on the council ex officio, president of the

21 assembly, president of the Executive Board, secretaries of secretariats,

22 et cetera. The secretary of that council was simultaneously the

23 secretary of the National Defence organ, and his duty was to assess the

24 political and security situation in the area of the municipality; and, in

25 keeping with the situation and with the documents that had been endorsed,

Page 45856

1 to issue instructions and guide-lines to various municipal agencies that

2 implement the adopted policies.

3 Q. You just said there was a National Defence Council, including

4 Mr. Medunjanin, and there was also the VTO. To which authorities does

5 the Secretariat for National Defence belong; and to which authority does

6 the VTO belong?

7 A. If you mean the distribution of departments, it belonged to the

8 SDA. The secretariat belonged to the SDA.

9 Q. No, in the line to the top.

10 A. The secretariat was under the civilian authorities; and the VTO

11 was under the Federal Secretariat for National Defence, that is to say,

12 the armed forces. And the secretariat was too but along a different

13 line.

14 Q. And the last topic. You were shown a report of

15 Lieutenant-Colonel Peulic about what happened at Koricanske Stijene.

16 Were you, in view of your job or otherwise, one of those who received

17 such reports?

18 A. No, my job did not include that.

19 Q. What did Peulic do with the information he obtained? Did he try

20 to cover up or to -- or did he pass it on to his superior command?

21 A. [No interpretation]

22 THE INTERPRETER: The witness needs to repeat his answer because

23 there was no pause between question and answer.

24 JUDGE KWON: No, no, you spoke too fast and without pausing at

25 all.

Page 45857

1 Mr. Sipovac, could you kindly repeat your answer very slowly.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the Prosecutor asked me this

3 question and when she showed me the telegram signed by Mr. Peulic, I said

4 that I could not see exactly what it was about but I understood it was a

5 report about something that happened on the ground, that is to say, the

6 crime at Koricanske Stijene.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. My question was what -- what was he supposed to do? Was he

9 covering up or was he reporting about it?

10 A. He was reporting, which is perfectly natural in the military

11 hierarchy. It was normal and it was his duty to report any incidents, if

12 they were in his zone of responsibility.

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sipovac. I have no further questions.

14 JUDGE KWON: Very well. That concludes your evidence,

15 Mr. Sipovac. I thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it. Now

16 you're free to go.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE KWON: Shall we take the lunch break now, given the timing?

20 Yes, we'll resume at five past 1.00.

21 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 --- On resuming at 1.06 p.m.

24 JUDGE KWON: Would the witness make the solemn declaration,

25 please.

Page 45861

1 indication whatsoever of being in favour of destroying the

2 Bosnian Muslims in whole or in part.

3 And this is the summary. At that moment, I do not have questions

4 for Mr. Nedic.

5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nedic, as you have noted, your evidence in-chief

6 in this case has been admitted in writing, that is, through your written

7 statement in lieu of your oral testimony.

8 Now you'll be cross-examined by the representative of the -- of

9 the Office of the Prosecutor.

10 Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

11 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour. If I could have

12 Exhibit D92, please.

13 Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

14 Q. And good afternoon, Mr. Nedic.

15 A. [No interpretation]

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear anything.

17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nedic, could you come closer to the microphone

18 so that interpreters could hear you better.

19 THE ACCUSED: So witness responded "dobar dan," but it was not

20 recorded.

21 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go to page 40 of the English and

22 page 39 of the B/C/S.

23 Q. Mr. Nedic, we'll start by looking at the speech you made which is

24 the main subject of your witness statement, your speech at the

25 17th Session.

Page 45862

1 Now, towards the beginning of the speech you say:

2 "This, which is happening in Bosnia-Herzegovina today, was

3 planned 7- to 800 years ago in one of the world's power centres and this,

4 which is happening today, is by no means new."

5 And on the next page in the English, a bit later on you say:

6 "I am against solving the situation in Bosnia in haste. We must

7 admit that the Muslims have been planted to us as a people whose

8 executioners we are to be."

9 In your witness statement, you said that you were suggesting here

10 that factors outside Yugoslavia wanted to use the Serbs to fight against

11 the Muslims. This was based on the idea that outside factors, such as

12 powerful European states, did not want an Islamic state to be created in

13 Europe; is that right?

14 A. What was going on in Bosnia was not a new thing. It was a war

15 along religious and ethnic lines. Our religions were both 7- or

16 800 years old, and we are not responsible for the various characteristics

17 of these two peoples.

18 I was in favour of reaching an agreement with the other side, a

19 mutual agreement, without the diktat of any outsiders. It was the

20 centres of power that put us in that position. I don't know where these

21 centres are, but it's certainly not a new thing to divide and

22 rule peoples. They divided us in the First World War, the

23 Second World War, and this latest war, and I didn't want any outside

24 interference in Bosnia between us. I wanted us to reach agreement

25 between us, but it was not possible. We had reached an agreement with

Page 45863

1 Alija Izetbegovic and we were very happy that we had reached this

2 agreement to continue living side by side, but then it floundered, and

3 then the worse that could happen happened.

4 Q. Mr. Nedic, I'd like to ask you to listen very carefully to my

5 question and to answer the question that I ask. Because, in your answer,

6 you didn't actually answer that question.

7 My question was: You've said in your statement that you were

8 suggesting in this speech that factors outside Yugoslavia wanted to use

9 the Serbs to fight against the Muslims. And my question is: This was

10 based on the idea that outside factors did not want an Islamic state to

11 be created in Europe. That was what was motivating those outside factors

12 to use the Serbs to fight against the Muslims.

13 Do you agree or disagree with that?

14 A. Well, it's probable that somebody did not want to see an Islamic

15 state arise in the Balkans. And in that war nobody supported the Islamic

16 state. Perhaps somebody from the east did, but from the west, certainly

17 not.

18 But we were not fighting against Muslims or Croats. We were just

19 defending ourselves. We had not planned that war. We had believed in

20 the army and co-operated with the army, until the very last day. And

21 these power centres outside, they made all the decisions. And the

22 bombing was done by -- by foreign planes, not by Islamic planes or I

23 don't know whose.

24 Q. Again, Mr. Nedic, I'm going to ask you to please focus on my

25 question --

Page 45864

1 JUDGE KWON: Why don't you put -- ask the witness to read out

2 paragraph 5 of his statement and ask what he meant. Probably he might

3 have been confused with this minute and with his statement.

4 MS. GUSTAFSON:

5 Q. Mr. Nedic, in your statement, you said, "I was suggesting" --

6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

7 Do you have your witness statement, Mr. Nedic?

8 Why don't you upload his statement, Exhibit D4232, paragraph 5.

9 THE ACCUSED: Excellency, if it could be most suitable, we can

10 give hard copy to witness.

11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we can do that, but -- yes.

12 Can you read aloud paragraph 5 of your statement, Mr. Nedic?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The gist of my message was let's

14 try to find a solution to avoid war, by not allowing others from outside

15 the former Yugoslavia to interfere and push us against each other. I was

16 suggesting that these outside factors wanted to use the Serbs to fight

17 against the Muslims. I only had the best intentions, and I don't

18 understand how anyone could make such a misinterpretation of my speech.

19 I never advocated the execution of Muslims."

20 I don't understand what's unclear here. I wanted us --

21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Just -- here comes the question from

22 the Prosecutor.

23 Yes, please continue, Ms. Gustafson.

24 MS. GUSTAFSON:

25 Q. Mr. Nedic, you've said that it was your view that outside factors

Page 45865

1 want to use Serbs to fight against the Muslims.

2 Why did those outside factors want the Serbs to fight the

3 Muslims?

4 A. Nobody wanted to see an Islamic state in the Balkans. Who? Who

5 could have wanted that? Maybe Muslims themselves did. But even not all

6 of them, because most Muslims had opted to live in that territory

7 together with their neighbours.

8 I don't have a problem with my own people. I have a problem with

9 politicians.

10 Q. Okay. That's clear now.

11 And you -- in this speech at the 17th Session, you said:

12 "We are a people who have been determined to be executioners and

13 to do someone a favour."

14 Now, this reflects the idea that the Serbs are in a position to

15 eliminate the Muslims through the conflict as they would thereby be doing

16 a favour to these outside factors who don't want to see an Islamic state

17 in the Balkans; correct?

18 A. Whichever nation in Bosnia had disappeared, a third party would

19 benefit; not us, but somebody outside. Because whenever people quarrel,

20 always somebody from outside interferes and benefits from that quarrel.

21 It's a law of life.

22 I was in favour of sitting down together with Croats and Muslims

23 and deciding how we are going to go on living together. I even compared

24 us to Switzerland because we have the same kind of country with the same

25 beautiful mountains, but we needed to find an arrangement to continue

Page 45866

1 living side by side and that could be done only peacefully and not by

2 war. And Mr. Karadzic never told us to go and take a territory with a

3 majority Muslim population. The example is Gracanica. When a general

4 asked for 1.000 soldiers to take Gracanica, Mr. Karadzic asked him, Why

5 would you do that? The Muslims also have to live somewhere. That is

6 their territory. And I understood him. And I did not provide troops to

7 takes Gracanica. We prevented that officer who wanted to do that.

8 Q. In your answer, Mr. Nedic, you said:

9 "Whichever nation in Bosnia had disappeared, a third party would

10 benefit."

11 What you were saying in your speech at the 17th Session was that

12 if the Muslim people disappeared, these outside factors who did not want

13 an Islamic state to be created in the Balkans would benefit; right?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Okay. In your statement, you said you were not advocating the

16 execution of Muslims here and that the essence of your message was to try

17 to find a solution to avoid a war.

18 Now, you acknowledge that at this point, late July 1992, there

19 was, in fact, a war going on, as you state in this very speech. There

20 was war in Bosnia at that time; correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, the primary goal of the Bosnian Serb leadership in this war

23 was to prevent the Serbs from becoming a minority in an independent

24 Bosnia by attaining a separate Serb state in Bosnia, a state in which

25 Muslims and Croats would be a small minority at most; right?

Page 45867

1 A. Why a very small minority?

2 Q. It was my question to you, Mr. Nedic. That was the goal of the

3 Bosnian Serb leadership: A separate Serb state in Bosnia where the

4 Muslims and Croats would be a small minority of the population at most.

5 Do you agree or disagree?

6 A. Well, in the early days, we were together in a common assembly of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we recognised Bosnia. But we wanted it to be

8 part of Yugoslavia, and they proclaimed cessation from Yugoslavia. We

9 wanted to go on living together with all the other nations.

10 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go back to D92, page 16 of the

11 English and page 14 of the B/C/S.

12 Q. Now, this is Dr. Karadzic speaking, Mr. Nedic, and towards the

13 bottom of the page he speaks about the importance of the Sarajevo

14 battle-field. He says a few lines down, beginning of that paragraph:

15 "A non-Serb state may be created on Muslim or Croat territories

16 in western Herzegovina, in Cazinska Krajina, or in Central Bosnia. But

17 on ethnic Serb territories, others cannot create any state, neither can

18 the Serbs allow any state to be created against them, because they know

19 what they experienced the last time they were in somebody else's state,

20 and they finally know their status in the states in which they are a

21 national minority."

22 Now what Dr. Karadzic is saying here is that a state dominated by

23 non-Serbs cannot encompass ethnic Serb territories, and, similarly, Serbs

24 cannot allow any state in which they constitute a national minority;

25 right?

Page 45868

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And when he says that Serbs "know what they experienced the last

3 time they were in somebody else's state and they finally know their

4 status in the states in which they are a national minority," he is

5 referring to historical events where the Serbs suffered at the hands of

6 Muslims and Croats; correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And I take it you agree with these sentiments that as a national

9 minority in a Muslim or a Muslim and Croat-dominated states, the Serbs

10 faced existential dangers. Do you agree?

11 A. Well, whenever Serbs were a minority, and whenever they were in a

12 foreign state, they were subjected to some sort of terror or a threat of

13 extermination. We have always faced extermination if we were in a state

14 governed by a foreigner. And this has repeated, not only lately, this

15 has been the case for hundreds of years.

16 Q. And you say:

17 "We have always faced extermination if we were in a state

18 governed by a foreigner."

19 You -- you -- your view is also that you, the Serbs, faced

20 extermination in a state governed by Muslims; right?

21 A. Correct.

22 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to page 82 of the English and page

23 83 of the B/C/S.

24 Q. And there's an exchange here between the chairman, Mr. Krajisnik

25 and Mr. Ostojic, and Mr. Krajisnik asks:

Page 45869

1 "I need an answer. Do we want Jajce, Bugojno, Tuzla, Banovici,

2 Zepce and Zavidovici to be in Republika Srpska?"

3 And Mr. Ostojic answers:

4 "If a clear definition of the borders in that area is expected of

5 me, I think that we have to commit to a strategy of a national state and

6 not the strategy of grasping territories, because we would be repeating a

7 historical mistake like in 1918. On such territory, do you want me to

8 give you the numbers? In such country there would be 55 per cent Serbs;

9 35 per cent Muslims; and 15 per cent Croats. Through birth rate within

10 10 years you will loose even that percentage."

11 Now, here, Mr. Ostojic -- this is another reference by

12 Mr. Ostojic, this time to the need to ensure that the Bosnian Serb state

13 does not contain too many non-Serbs; right? That would be a historical

14 mistake?

15 A. It would have been a historical mistake for us to take their

16 territories and their people into our state. However, if an agreement

17 could have been reached it would have been justified for us to live next

18 to each other and nobody threatening anybody else. And if those who

19 wanted to cross over to live in either the Serbian state unit or in the

20 Muslim state unit, they would not be forbidden. That's -- that was our

21 line of thinking. That's why we created Republika Srpska.

22 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go to page 85 of the English and

23 page 86 in the B/C/S.

24 Q. Where Dr. Karadzic speaks again, and about three lines down he

25 says:

Page 45870

1 "The thirst for territories and a greater country of the late

2 Aleksandar Karadjordjevic had cost us three million, plus their offspring

3 which amounts to 10 million people."

4 And about five lines down from there, he says:

5 "Now the question is, and you have to decide as an assembly, what

6 shall we do if they get killed on account of some river or hill and in

7 such a way again get to have an enemy in our own country?"

8 Now this is another reference by Dr. Karadzic from this session

9 to the need to ensure that the Bosnian Serb state does not contain too

10 many non-Serbs; correct?

11 A. Yes. But this would not have been done by force. An agreement

12 would have to be reached to that effect.

13 Q. Well, Mr. Nedic, in fact, achieving the Serb state without too

14 many non-Serbs in it, the one sought by the Bosnian Serb leadership,

15 involved reducing the numbers of Muslims and Croats in Serb-claimed

16 territories by committing crimes against them, didn't it?

17 A. That's not true.

18 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to page 7 -- if we could go to

19 page 72 of the English, page 73 of the B/C/S.

20 Q. And this is Mr. Rajko Dukic speaking. Now, Mr. Rajko Dukic was

21 the president of the SDS Executive Board and a member of the Main Board

22 together with you; isn't that right, Mr. Nedic?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. And roughly halfway down in the English and ten lines down in the

25 B/C/S, he begins speaking about Semberija. And he says:

Page 45871

1 "As far as Semberija is concerned, we have not done anything in

2 Semberija either, gentlemen. We do not have Semberija, let us not

3 deceive ourselves. There are more refugee there now than before. In

4 Semberija, there are different authorities and policies and more Muslims

5 than there have ever been [sic] because in Semberija and Bijeljina

6 municipality, the majority of the population is Muslims -- is Muslim,"

7 sorry, "there are 12.000 Muslims without Janje which is 10 kilometres

8 away."

9 And then a few lines down, he talks about what he saw in the

10 Official Gazette. He says:

11 "There it says that judges have been appointed to the Bijeljina

12 court: Smajil Salbegovic, Muhamed Gluhonjic, Alida Madjar,

13 Alija Zvizdic, and I do not know, I also found a fifth one,

14 Alma Halibegovic. So I am asking you, gentlemen, why we expelled all

15 judges from Vlasenica, Bratunac, and Zvornik? Will we be accused then, I

16 hope we will not, but will these others be better there working like

17 this? I would be ashamed and I would regret all the victims if I lived

18 in a state in which Muslims and Muslim ideology would judge and where

19 their justice was done."

20 And then a few lines down he refers to in -- in Bijeljina the

21 fact that people are sitting around in cafes drinking Turkish coffee and

22 singing Turkish songs. And he says:

23 "You see, our 3.500 women and children are counting their last

24 days there. We cannot do it like that. We have to decide about that."

25 Now, Mr. Dukic is saying here that even though Bijeljina is

Page 45872

1 militarily in the hands of the Serbs at this point, we still do not have

2 Semberija because there are too many Muslims living there; right?

3 A. During the war, I passed through Bijeljina and I saw a lot of

4 Muslims who lived there normally, although it was war time. But if this

5 was after the war, then fine. Muslims could live normally in Bijeljina.

6 Nobody touched them. There were some individuals who were involved in

7 incidents, but Dr. Karadzic never asked for anybody to be ill-treated,

8 never asked anybody to move out of Bijeljina.

9 Q. Mr. Nedic, you didn't answer my question. What Mr. Dukic is

10 saying here is that the Serbs still don't really have Semberija because

11 there are too many Muslims living there; right?

12 A. I don't know what he referred to, what he meant. If the

13 authorities were Serbs and there were too many Muslims, it really didn't

14 mean anything, didn't mean much.

15 Q. When Mr. Dukic says, "You see, our 3.500 women and children are

16 counting their last days there," what he is saying here is that the 3.500

17 Serb women and children living in Bijeljina, their lives are in danger

18 because of the number of Muslims still in Bijeljina; right?

19 A. When was that?

20 Q. At this session, Mr. Nedic, Mr. Dukic says in the speech we just

21 looked at:

22 "You see, our 3.500 women and children are counting their last

23 days there."

24 He is talking about the dangers that Serb women and children in

25 Bijeljina face because of the number of Muslims still living there;

Page 45873

1 right?

2 A. I don't know what he had in mind. You have to ask him that.

3 Q. And if we could go to the next page of the B/C/S. And this is

4 another ten lines down or so in the English from where we left off.

5 He talks about Birac. He says:

6 "If we move further, there is Birac which is 100 to

7 108 kilometres away and has 120.000 Muslims. That is how many there

8 were, but I hope that has at least been halved and 90.000 Serbs."

9 Now, Birac is an area in Eastern Bosnia that includes Sekovici,

10 Vlasenica, Srebrenica, Milici, Bratunac, and Zvornik; correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now when Mr. Dukic says that there are now 120.000 Muslims there

13 but he hopes that has at least been halved, he is talking about the need

14 to reduce the number of Muslims living in this area, an area claimed by

15 Serbs; correct?

16 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Before you answer.

17 Yes, Mr. Robinson.

18 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, I object to the relevance of these

19 line of questions as to other people's statements at the Assembly. If

20 you look at the witness statement for Mr. Nedic, he is talking about what

21 he intended by the speech that the Prosecution cited as evidence of

22 genocide. What other people said, what other people intended, I don't

23 think are relevant to his evidence.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I told you that you should

25 ask Dukic about that.

Page 45874

1 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Just a second.

2 French translation has only now been completed.

3 Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

4 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 The -- this, of course, is the same assembly session in which

6 Mr. Nedic spoke and, of course, the context in which he made this speech

7 is highly relevant. I would add that Mr. Nedic is not on trial here.

8 It's Dr. Karadzic who's alleged to have acted with other members of the

9 Bosnian Serb leadership. What the other -- what other members of that

10 leadership were saying at this session I think is highly relevant and

11 goes directly to the witness's claims.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, the Chamber agrees with you. Please continue.

14 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you.

15 Q. Mr. Nedic, you said that "you should ask Dukic about that."

16 So you can't comment on his reference here to reducing the number

17 of Muslims in Birac. Is that a correct understanding?

18 A. I really don't know what he meant.

19 Q. Okay. In your witness statement, you said you advocated finding

20 a solution to avoid a war with the Muslims, and earlier today you said:

21 "I was in favour of reaching agreement with the other side."

22 And then a little bit later you said:

23 "I was in favour of sitting down together with Croats and Muslims

24 and determining how we are going to go on living together."

25 Now, in fact, at the time during the war, you made it clear that

Page 45875

1 you didn't think the Serbs should be negotiating with the Muslims at all;

2 correct?

3 A. I don't understand your question.

4 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to D115, please.

5 Q. Your view during the war, Mr. Nedic, was that the Serbs should

6 not even negotiate with the Muslims; right?

7 A. I don't know that I ever said that or that I ever thought that.

8 Throughout the war, all the time except [indiscernible] we would

9 sit down and talk and negotiate and not wage war.

10 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to page 25 of the English and of

11 the B/C/S.

12 Q. Mr. Nedic, this is a transcript of the 25th Assembly Session held

13 on the 19th and 20th of January, 1993, and the discussion at this session

14 focussed on the Vance-Owen negotiations going on in Geneva.

15 And at the bottom of the page, you speak, and you say in the

16 second sentence:

17 "And I have to begin this way. Mr. Karadzic, your signature in

18 Geneva went up in smoke even before signed, and even had you affixed it,

19 it would have gone up in smoke. For, at the Bijeljina Assembly, we

20 adopted the position that the Muslims represented a religious Islamic

21 group of Turkish allegiance and South Slav provenance. In other words,

22 we, as a people, can talk to a people, and, in future, we can talk with

23 the Muslims only through their religious leader, the

24 Reis-el-Ulema Jakub Selimovski. They cannot blame this on us. They,

25 themselves, proved that they are not a nation. Everything that we

Page 45876

1 offered them as a people they refused, and had they been a people, they

2 would have accepted at least one option for us to live like human beings

3 and like peoples. They are to blame, not us. Let them fair as God sees

4 fit."

5 And on the next page, you say you are in favour of negotiating

6 with the Croats and your last words are:

7 "Therefore, as regards this whole discussion about the Geneva

8 negotiations, let me not belabour the point. Negotiations can only be

9 conducted with a people, and I am not in favour of negotiations with

10 religious sects."

11 Now, Mr. Nedic, it's quite clear that at this session you were

12 advocating that the Serbs should not even negotiate with the Muslims who

13 you viewed as a religious sect unworthy of a seat at the negotiating

14 table; correct?

15 A. I believe that we should not negotiate with them as a people but

16 as a religious group, they were Muslims. I did not want to exterminate

17 anybody and I still believe that Muslims in Bosnia are Serbs' brothers in

18 blood. And in terms of their religion, they are the Serbs' worst

19 enemies.

20 Q. Mr. Nedic, you just said:

21 "I believe that we should not negotiate with them as a people but

22 as a religious group, they were Muslims."

23 But you said in this -- in this speech negotiations can only be

24 conducted with a people and I am not in favour of negotiations with

25 religious sects.

Page 45877

1 You were saying quite the opposite at the time, weren't you?

2 A. With religious sects as a people. I negotiate with a people, and

3 with religious sects I negotiated as with religious sects. But they did

4 not want negotiations. They wanted their own sovereign Bosnia where I

5 would have to tolerate the Sharia law. I lived or I have lived for 500

6 years under the Sharia law, and I know how it is.

7 THE ACCUSED: Transcript. [Interpretation] I'm not sure that

8 Mr. Nedic would have anything against Sharia, but I'm sure that he would

9 have something against Soraya, so it's not Soraya but the Sharia law.

10 Soraya was the Iranian queen.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Sharia law.

12 MS. GUSTAFSON:

13 Q. Now, you said, Mr. Nedic, "I lived or I have lived for 500 years

14 under the Sharia law." Now, at the time, you also made clear that if

15 your -- the area you were from, Ozren, went to the Muslim side, you'd

16 kill yourself.

17 Do you remember saying that?

18 A. Perhaps I did, but I don't remember.

19 MS. GUSTAFSON: Well, if we could go to P1379, please. And the

20 passage I'm looking for is page 103 of the English and page 111 of the

21 B/C/S.

22 Q. And, again, Mr. Nedic, the discussion in this session focussed on

23 the latest peace proposal, peace proposal which involved giving up some

24 territories around Ozren?

25 And your speech begins with you stating that you've started your

Page 45878

1 journey to this session from Ozren. And you said:

2 "And I have to say that I was really happy to go because my

3 fellow Ozren inhabitants asked me what I would do if it turned out that

4 Ozren should be given to the Muslims after all. Then I would hang

5 myself, I said - there's nothing else for me to do."

6 Does that remind you now of the fact that you said you'd kill

7 yourself if Ozren went to the Muslims?

8 A. I don't remember that. However, even if I said that, it would

9 have been only normal for me to have said it. Ozren fell largely under

10 Muslims but I didn't kill myself because Muslims did not take Ozren on

11 their own. They were largely assisted by the NATO shelling.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be asked

13 to look at the first paragraph. At least the first five or six lines

14 that are now on the screen.

15 Can he read that? Can he read that selection?

16 MS. GUSTAFSON: My time -- my time is very limited. I read it

17 out.

18 JUDGE KWON: She put the question and the witness answered the

19 question. If you like to put -- for the part you can do that in your

20 re-examination.

21 MS. GUSTAFSON:

22 Q. Mr. Nedic, in your statement and several times already today you

23 reiterated the claim that you viewed -- your -- what you claim was your

24 view at the time which was that throughout the war you thought the Serbs

25 should sit down and negotiate and the parties should not wage war.

Page 45879

1 But at the time, you, in fact, insisted that the borders that had

2 been created by force could not be changed by the maps agreed to in the

3 negotiations, didn't you?

4 A. I never recognised the borders of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I

5 still do not recognise the state borders that we have now, that have just

6 been created, because this will also have to be renegotiated.

7 The Balkans is not in order. It has been shaken. How it is

8 going to be put in place, I don't know. I was not the one who shook it.

9 Karadzic wasn't one either. If anybody deserves the Nobel prize for

10 peace and humanity, it is Dr. Radovan Karadzic. During the six years

11 that we worked together, I learnt that.

12 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we go to P1394, page 85 of the English and

13 page 78 of the B/C/S, please. Should be three pages forward in the

14 B/C/S. One more page, please. Sorry, next page in the B/C/S, please.

15 Thank you.

16 Q. Now you can see this is where you begin speaking, Mr. Nedic. The

17 passage, I wanted to direct you to is on the next page in both languages,

18 and it begins about four lines down in both languages.

19 MS. GUSTAFSON: If I could have the next page in both. Thank

20 you.

21 Q. And just to orient you, this is a session where the main point of

22 discussion was the peace plan proposed by the contact group and, in

23 particular, the maps attached to that plan. And you state:

24 "The border on Ozren mountain has already been drawn, the graves

25 and trenches show that border, no one can register maps there. The one

Page 45880

1 who wants to make new maps on Ozren mountain will have to move those

2 trenches, will have to move the graves."

3 And then a few lines down you say:

4 "Let me repeat the words from the folk poem: The meadow is my

5 patrimony, my grandfather got it with a sword, my grandchildren will keep

6 it with a sword."

7 And then you say:

8 "The suggestion is in these words, it is all clear, the maps are

9 drawn with the graves and trenches. And those who intend to draw new

10 ones, let there be an endless battle. Flowers will spring for some

11 future generations. Thank you."

12 That was the view you expressed at the time, wasn't it,

13 Mr. Nedic? The borders at Ozren have been drawn with trenches and graves

14 and anyone who wants to move them with negotiated maps will face an

15 endless battle.

16 A. [No interpretation]

17 Q. Sorry, if you could just repeat your answer. I don't think it

18 was caught on record.

19 Perhaps I'll just repeat my question, Mr. Nedic. That was the

20 view you expressed at the time. The border --

21 A. There's no need.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. Ozren is a mountain and it's between four rivers, Bosna, Speca,

24 Turija. Those were the borders that we held and we defended ourselves

25 from attacks from the Muslim-Croat army. On that boundary, in that

Page 45881

1 defence, hundreds of young men were killed, and people from Ozren, their

2 graves are there, and that is that boundary that I spoke about. That

3 boundary exists to this day, although half of Ozren had fallen. And it

4 had fallen on the basis of the Dayton Peace Agreement. The Muslims

5 exterminated everyone in that area, and there aren't even any bricks

6 left. People had been expelled. My house, my property, everything was

7 destroyed, torched. That is the effect of the Dayton Agreement and the

8 Muslim offensive on Ozren. And also, it is the consequence of NATO bombs

9 that destroyed the relay tower at Ozren, and five young men were killed

10 there by a single missile fired by NATO aircraft.

11 Q. Okay. Mr. Nedic, you agree, though, that despite what you've

12 said today about being in favour of reaching a negotiated solution, what

13 you said at the time about Ozren was that the borders had been created by

14 trenches and graves, and anyone who wanted to move those borders by

15 negotiated maps faced an endless battle.

16 That was the view you expressed at the time; right?

17 A. Serb people still live in Ozren. I returned to that land,

18 although everything was destroyed, although it is in the Federation. I

19 did not give up on my land, on the land of my forefathers and I'm never

20 going to give up on that, and I'm never going to sell it either. Now how

21 this will be regulated, how Bosnia will be regulated, I don't know. It

22 hasn't been regulated yet. There is still chaos there. There is still

23 the Vehabije there. There are all sorts of things there. Europe should

24 help regulate this, rather than sow discord.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

Page 45882

1 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In lines 12 and 13, the witness

3 said: There are still Vehabije there. Perhaps that's a problem for the

4 interpreters. Maybe they would interpret it as Wahabists. Those are

5 extremists from Saudi Arabia.

6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

7 Yes, Ms. Gustafson, do you have further questions?

8 MS. GUSTAFSON: Two final questions, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Nedic, you have stated today that you agreed that Serbs faced

10 extermination in a state governed by Muslims. You claim that you have

11 lived for 500 years under Sharia law. You claimed that the Muslims have

12 exterminated everyone in the Ozren area post-Dayton. You state at the

13 time that the Bosnian Muslims were a religious sect who should -- with

14 whom the Serbs should not negotiate. And you said that you would kill

15 yourself if the -- if Ozren went to the Muslim side.

16 Now you lived and live in great fear of the Muslim people;

17 correct?

18 A. Well, that's true.

19 Q. And at the 17th Session, Mr. Nedic, when you said, "We are a

20 people who have been determined to be executioners and do someone a

21 favour. In 100 years, we will regret each of these moves if we make a

22 mistake," you were advocating taking the opportunity that you believed

23 presented itself to eliminate the Muslim people, people with whom you

24 lived in great fear, once and for all so you do not have to face these

25 historical enemies again in 100 years.

Page 45883

1 That was basically your message in that speech; correct?

2 A. I never advocated the extermination of the Muslim people. The

3 only thing I hold against the Muslims as a religious group or people,

4 whatever you wish, is that they are forcing me to have to fire at them

5 too.

6 That is what I find the hardest of all.

7 Q. I have nothing further.

8 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, you have -- any re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

10 [Defence counsel confer]

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Excellency. All the documents

12 have been admitted, and I really wouldn't want to go further on the basis

13 of that. Thank you. I'm not going to put any further questions.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

15 Mr. Nedic, that concludes your evidence. On behalf of the

16 Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague. Now you

17 are free to go.

18 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

19 JUDGE KWON: If the usher could tell the witness we didn't hear

20 anything so ...

21 No, like -- could you tell him he could be excused.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, is the next witness ready?

24 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting for the witness to be brought

Page 45888

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Davidovic.

4 A. Good day, Mr. President.

5 Q. Please, let us speak slowly, both of us, so that what we say can

6 be recorded. Also, let us pause between my questions and your answers.

7 So if you look at the cursor you will see when the interpretation is

8 over.

9 Have you provided my Defence team with a statement?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

13 1D9665 in e-court.

14 [Microphone not activated]

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Would you please focus on the left-hand side of the screen.

18 That's the Serbian version.

19 Do you see the first page of your statement on the screen?

20 A. Yes, I do see the first page of my statement.

21 Q. Have you read and signed this statement?

22 A. Yes, I have read and signed that statement.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

25 the last page so that he could identify the signature.

Page 45889

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Is that your signature?

3 A. Yes, that is my signature.

4 Q. Thank you. Did this statement faithfully reflect what you

5 communicated to the Defence team or would you like something to be

6 corrected?

7 A. For the time being, I have no objections and I'm not asking for

8 any corrections to be made.

9 Q. Thank you. If I were to put the same questions to you today, the

10 same as those that were put to you when this statement was taken, would

11 your answers basically be the same?

12 A. Yes, my answers would basically be the same.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender

15 Mr. Branko Davidovic's statement into evidence according to Rule 92 ter.

16 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any objections, Ms. McKenna?

17 MS. McKENNA: No objection, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will receive it.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D4233, Your Honours.

20 MR. ROBINSON: There's one associated exhibit, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes. 1D9602, you do not object to the admission of

22 it?

23 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, I believe that exhibit is already

24 admitted -- or that document, rather, is already admitted as P3663.

25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please check it, Mr. Robinson, and come

Page 45890

1 back if it is not the case.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Now I'm going to read out in the English language a brief summary

6 of Mr. Branko Davidovic's statement.

7 [In English] Branko Davidovic responded to the mobilisation

8 carried out by the 6th Krajina Light Infantry Brigade in 1992 and was

9 assigned to the post of battalion commander and soon after as the

10 assistant of the commander of morale on the level of brigade.

11 Before the war broke out, the interethnic relations between the

12 Serbian, Muslim, and Croatian citizens in Sanski Most municipality were

13 good. In the first multi-party elections in Sanski Most, the SDS got the

14 greatest number of votes and it therefore formed the local authorities.

15 Although there were almost as many Muslims as Serbs, the Muslims had far

16 fewer voters because the average Muslim family has five to six children,

17 most of whom were under voting age.

18 At the local level, the SDA was under enormous pressure from the

19 SDA in Sarajevo and they were -- soon revealed their political goals as

20 being the cessation of BH from Yugoslavia and the creation of a unitary

21 state. The local HDZ was also under pressure from the HDZ leadership in

22 Sarajevo and the HDZ from the Republic of Croatia. The policy of the HDZ

23 leadership immediately before the war was that Bosnia should secede from

24 Yugoslavia, after which the parts of BH populated by Croats and the

25 territories that mattered to the Croats were to be annexed to the

Page 45891

1 Republic of Croatia.

2 When the confrontations reached the level wanted to -- wanted by

3 the Muslims and Croatian separatists, a referendum on the independence of

4 BH was organised. The Serbs did not take part in the referendum. And in

5 response to the memorandum of independence, Serbs organised plebiscite in

6 which the absolute majority of Serbs and many other citizens were voted

7 for preference to preserve the -- both peace and common state of

8 Yugoslavia. When the responsible command assessed that the security of

9 the state and citizens were threatened, it orders a mobilisation of the

10 commands and units of the 6th Krajina Light Infantry Brigade in

11 Sanski Most. The Serbs and a small number of Muslim and Croatian

12 citizens responded to the mobilisation. In the month of June 1991, the

13 6th Krajina Light Infantry Brigade set off for the general sector of

14 Jasenovac in Croatia.

15 In Sanski Most municipality or in places where the Muslims and

16 Croats were the majority population, Serbian citizens had already noticed

17 that the Muslims and Croats were arming themselves, forming armed groups

18 and units, and organising village guards. Due to fear, village guards

19 were also organised in response in the places where the Serbs lived.

20 The memory of the crimes committed against the Serbs during the

21 Second World War contributed to increase the fear. On 2nd and

22 3rd of April, 1992, the 6th Krajina Light Infantry Brigade was allowed to

23 return to Sanski Most municipality in order to prevent interethnic

24 conflicts. The Muslims entered by force and blockaded the municipality

25 building in the hope of seizing power because the Serbs had won the

Page 45892

1 largest numbers of seats in the municipal assembly and the president of

2 the municipal assembly was also a Serb. Information gathered by the

3 security services in Sanski Most revealed that many Muslims and Croats

4 were armed and paramilitary units had already been formed, and so

5 operative measures were taken to crack down on these developments.

6 Appeals were made to eminent Muslim and Croatian citizens in key

7 communities to speak to their fellow citizens and ask them to collect and

8 surrender all illegal weapons.

9 In order to find and disarm Muslim and Croatian paramilitary

10 formations, groups and individuals, the units of the

11 6th Krajina Light Infantry Brigade legitimately checked and searched

12 populated places in Sanski Most municipality on the 25th of May, 1992.

13 About ten members of Mr. Davidovic's unit were killed or wounded in the

14 fighting around Hrustovo village. This is a clear example that there was

15 a well-armed unit with the strength of one battalion in Hrustovo and that

16 the brigade was not fighting unarmed civilians.

17 The security services identified and located in their operative

18 work individuals and groups that were illegally armed in Sanski Most

19 municipality, and these people and those connected with them were found

20 and arrested. In the number of suspects increased -- as the number of

21 suspects increased and more people had to be accommodated before the

22 interviews could take place, a remand prison was set up at the Betonirka,

23 and reception centres were set up in the Famos sports hall and factory.

24 People were not brought in at random and civilians were not arrested.

25 And that is the short summary, and at that moment, I do not have

Page 45893

1 questions for Mr. Davidovic.

2 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Mr. Davidovic, as you have noted, your

3 evidence in-chief in this case has been admitted in writing. That is,

4 through your written statement in lieu of your oral testimony.

5 Now you will be cross-examined by the representative of the

6 Office of the Prosecutor.

7 Ms. McKenna, do you like that start today or do it tomorrow?

8 MS. McKENNA: I'm in Your Honours' hands. I'm happy to do

9 whichever Your Honour would like.

10 JUDGE KWON: Then let us start.

11 Cross-examination by Ms. McKenna:

12 Q. Mr. Davidovic, just to begin with, a -- I'd like to clarify a

13 preliminary point from your statement.

14 In paragraph 1, you say that you used to be a teacher. That was

15 a teacher at a primary school in Tomina; is that correct?

16 A. No. I taught in Donja Kamengrad and in the Narodni Front school

17 in Sanski Most. That's where I taught school.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, at paragraph 14 of your statement, you say that

19 when you joined the 1st -- the 6th Brigade you were first assigned as the

20 battalion commander and then you subsequently became the assistant

21 commander for morale. We'll come onto the operations in which you were

22 involved as a battalion commander, but I'd like to focus briefly on your

23 role as assistant commander for morale.

24 Now, you were responsible in this role for reporting to the

25 1st Krajina Corps Command on morale issues; is that correct?

Page 45894

1 A. That is correct, yes.

2 Q. And on the basis of these reports, the 1st Krajina Brigade

3 Command would report to the VRS Main Staff on the state of combat -- of

4 morale in Sanski Most municipality. That's correct, isn't it?

5 A. I suppose so. That was the chain of command, and that's how

6 things should have been.

7 Q. Now, I'd like to look at first at the document which you assisted

8 in drafting. That's P3663.

9 And I'd like to focus on the English page 4 and B/C/S page 5 of

10 this document.

11 Now, this, Mr. Davidovic, is the part of the document in which

12 you state in paragraph 16 of your statement that the situation is clearly

13 presented.

14 If we could focus towards the bottom of the page in English.

15 And you're discussing the situation -- the Muslim leadership in

16 Sanski Most municipality, and you state, the document states:

17 "The documents found show that they intended to commit a genocide

18 against the Serbian people, killed them, and expel them, and create a

19 Muslim state in these parts. All renowned Serbs and their families were

20 to killed and hanged in the park in Sanski Most. Serbian girls and women

21 were to be put in brothels to bear offspring to the Mujahedin, and the

22 Janissaries, Sharia law and government were to be introduced as in Iran.

23 Male Serbian children were to be circumcised and brought up according to

24 Islamic laws and principles."

25 Now, this was the type of information that you, as assistant

Page 45895

1 commander for morale, were providing your troops, was it?

2 A. What you're just saying, this information was collected by the

3 public security service and the public security services in the units.

4 Based on the reports that they submitted to the authorised bodies,

5 revealed the facts that you have just read out to us.

6 Q. Mr. Davidovic, on -- in paragraph 13 of your statement, you say

7 that on returning to Sanski Most, the brigade installed itself in

8 Lusci Palanka and the break -- brigade command thought that it would in

9 this way help to calm tensions between the divided citizens.

10 Now Colonel Branko Basara was the commander of your brigade;

11 correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Could we please see P3660.

14 Mr. Davidovic, this is the war-time record of the 6th Brigade

15 written by Colonel Basara.

16 Could we turn to page 2 of the English and page 3 of the B/C/S,

17 please.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm seeking explanation. Is this a

19 war diary, or was this written subsequently? Is this a memoire?

20 JUDGE KWON: We dealt with this issue. Probably you raised this.

21 But this is already admitted.

22 But if could you help Mr. Karadzic, Ms. McKenna.

23 MS. McKENNA: I believe it's clear from the context that it was

24 written in 1992. And it's entitled: War record of the 6th Brigade. But

25 as Your Honour has pointed out, it is already in evidence.

Page 45896

1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue.

2 MS. McKENNA: Thank you.

3 Q. Now at -- under heading 4 in this document, Mr. -- or Colonel

4 Basara states:

5 "On 3rd of April, 1991, the 6th was transferred in complete order

6 and with the utmost secrecy from Jasenovac to the area of Sanski Most so

7 that everyone was surprised."

8 That should be a reference to the 3rd of April, 1992, shouldn't

9 it?

10 A. The brigade arrived between the 3rd and 4th of April in 1992 from

11 the Jasenovac sector to Sanski Most municipality, i.e., to Lusci Palanka,

12 and that place is some 25 kilometres away from Sanski Most and it is

13 mostly inhabited by Serbs --

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I'm going to -- sorry to

15 interrupt you. I'm going to ask you to just listen to my

16 questions and -- carefully and answer them as concisely as possible. And

17 your answer to that was yes, I believe.

18 If we look at what Colonel Basara says next, he states that:

19 "With the arrival of the brigade on this territory, the Muslims

20 and Croats became afraid, and the Serbs heaved a sigh of relief."

21 So this was the reality, wasn't it? That the brigade's command

22 didn't install itself in Lusci Palanka in order to calm tensions. It

23 installed itself there to reassure the Serb population and to instill

24 fear in the non-Serb population.

25 A. I don't think so. The contrary is true. If the brigade had been

Page 45897

1 destroyed in an area with a Muslim population, they would have considered

2 to be at risk and to be put under pressure by the brigade to do something

3 that they didn't want to do.

4 Q. Mr. Davidovic, you've said in paragraph 16 of your statement that

5 the basic task of the brigade was to prevent interethnic conflicts and to

6 secure the public property of all citizens of the municipality.

7 Now here in this document, Colonel Basara continues:

8 "We ordered the Serbs to arm themselves quickly and replenish the

9 unit. Since our task as a JNA unit was to prevent conflicts between the

10 nationalities, that is, to prevent the slaughter of the Serbian people,

11 we could not publicly arm the Serbs."

12 So that's the truth. The brigade's task wasn't to protect all of

13 the population, regardless of ethnicity. The brigade's task was to

14 protect the Serbian people.

15 A. At first, when the turmoil started, the brigade had the task to

16 prevent interethnic conflicts. The brigade was armed from regular

17 depots, according to the number of people that it was supposed to have,

18 according to formation. People who joined the unit received personal

19 weapons, so it didn't arm anybody else but its own members who were

20 called up and who responded to call-ups and joined the unit.

21 Q. And on the topic of the people that responded to the call-ups,

22 you say, in paragraph 14, that when the brigade arrived in Sanski Most,

23 it carried out an additional mobilisation in the hope that Muslims,

24 Croats, and Serbs would respond to the mobilisation.

25 I'd like you to look at what Colonel Basara, your commander,

Page 45898

1 said, on this topic. And it's on the same page halfway down. And he

2 states: "We had to resort to a trick" -- excuse me, it's at page 3 of

3 the B/C/S.

4 Yeah.

5 "We had to resort to a trick to make it possible for us to arm

6 the Serbs publicly and legally. The story was devised that the commander

7 of the 1st Krajina Corps had ordered the 6th to be promoted from a light

8 to an infantry brigade and that it could have as many as 15 battalions

9 but the brigade should be demobilised as soon as possible so that the

10 Muslims and Croats would not enlist in the brigade. It was put about

11 that as soon as mobilisation finished, it was leaving for Kupres. Then

12 conditions were made to legally arm and form nine battalions."

13 So, in fact, Mr. Davidovic, contrary to your statement, there was

14 no hope that non-Serbs would respond to the mobilisation. Rather, your

15 commander, Colonel Basara, was going do some length to actively prevent

16 non-Serbs from joining your brigade.

17 THE ACCUSED: Could we have the Serbian -- adequate Serbian page.

18 JUDGE KWON: I think Ms. McKenna said next -- next page.

19 MS. McKENNA: [Overlapping speakers] ... passage continues on

20 page 4, excuse me.

21 THE ACCUSED: Partly. It was partly on this, yeah.

22 MS. McKENNA:

23 Q. Mr. Davidovic, can you answer the question?

24 The question is: Contrary to your statement, there was no hope

25 that the -- that non-Serbs would join your brigade. Rather, your

Page 45899

1 brigade's commander was actively trying to prevent Muslims and Croats

2 from joining your brigade.

3 A. This document -- I can see that it is a handwritten document. I

4 don't know whose handwriting this is. I only know that the truth of the

5 matter was this. Muslims and Croats did not respond to call-ups, save

6 for a very small number. And there were few of them who stayed in the

7 unit practically until the very end of the war, and they didn't have any

8 problems. This was probably done, I'm sure it was done in order to

9 prevent any interethnic or conflicts as much as possible.

10 I never heard that the brigade had 19 battalions and that it was

11 deployed in Kupres. At one point, we had 11 battalions and, after a

12 while, due to the age and the low level of equipment and many other

13 reasons, the brigade reduced the number of its members to a total of six

14 battalions.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, this would be a good point to break.

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll adjourn here for today and continue

18 tomorrow morning at 9.00.

19 Mr. Davidovic, I would like to advise you not to discuss with

20 anybody else about your testimony.

21 Hearing is adjourned.

22 [The witness stands down]

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.49 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd day of

25 January, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.