140219ED

Page 47365

1 Cross-examination by Ms. McKenna:

2 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Mr. Mudrinic, your nickname was Medeni; is that correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And Dusan Saovic, to whom you refer in your statement, his

6 nickname was Njunja?

7 A. Njunja. That was it. Not Ninja.

8 Q. And Njunja was the SOS commander; correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. You were his deputy; correct?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Now, I'm going to name some other members of the SOS. I want you

13 to confirm either yes or no whether they were members of the SOS.

14 Firstly, Vojo Dusenovic?

15 A. Vojo Dosenovic.

16 Q. Was he a member of the SOS, Mr. Mudrinic?

17 A. Yes, he was a member of the SOS.

18 Q. Milan Camber also known as Skica, was he a member of the SOS?

19 A. Milan Camber aka Skica.

20 Q. Was Milan Camber a member of the SOS, Mr. Mudrinic, yes or no?

21 A. Yes, he was but just for a period of time.

22 Q. Goran Kerkes, was he a member of the SOS?

23 A. Goran Kerkes was not a member of the SOS.

24 Q. What about Zoran Bubulj?

25 A. He was not a member.

Page 47366

1 Q. And Danilusko Kajtez?

2 A. Danilusko Kajtez was a member for some two months or two months

3 and a half.

4 Q. Now in paragraph 4 of your statement, you say:

5 "The SDS had nothing do with our establishment. Our SOS and the

6 SOS from Banja Luka had nothing to do with each other."

7 It's true, though, isn't it, Mr. Mudrinic, that when formally

8 establishing the SOS Sanski Most, you liaised with the authorities of the

9 Autonomous Region of the Krajina?

10 A. It's true that when the SOS was established we liaised with the

11 Territorial Defence of Sanski Most because we were former members of the

12 TO.

13 MS. McKENNA: Could we please see 65 ter number 26051.

14 Q. Mr. Mudrinic, you'll see that this is a proclamation of the

15 Serb Defence Forces Staff of the Serb municipality of Sanski Most. And

16 it's signed the SOS. And it's dated the 13th of April, 1992.

17 And in the first paragraph it states:

18 "We hereby inform the Serb people and the general public of the

19 Serb municipality of Sanski Most that a unit of the Serb Defence Forces

20 (SOS) was formed on the 12th of April in Lusci Palanka."

21 First thing, Mr. Mudrinic, do you agree that the formation of a

22 unit of the SOS suggests that it is a unit of a larger organisation?

23 A. I don't agree that it belonged to a larger organisation. The SOS

24 was established in Sanski Most in that -- in Luska Palanka --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness repeat what he said last.

Page 47367

1 MS. McKENNA:

2 Q. Mr. Mudrinic, the interpreter did not hear your final sentence.

3 If you could just repeat from -- you say that it was formed on the

4 12th -- I'm sorry. You said the SOS was established in Luska Palanka.

5 Was there anything else that you wanted to add?

6 A. It was established in Sanski Most but its establishment was

7 proclaimed or announced in Luska Palanka.

8 Q. Thank you. Let's look at the fifth paragraph of this document,

9 which states:

10 "The insignia of [sic] and the uniforms of the unit were designed

11 on the basis of an agreement with the JNA and the Autonomous Region of

12 Bosanska Krajina ..."

13 So you'll agree, Mr. Mudrinic, that this shows the SOS liaising

14 with both the JNA and the ARK at its formation?

15 A. That what's the proclamation says. When it was established, the

16 JNA insignia were adopted.

17 MS. McKENNA: Your Honours, I'd like to tender this document.

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6680, Your Honours.

20 MS. McKENNA:

21 Q. Now, Mr. Mudrinic, the Trial Chamber has heard from your fellow

22 SOS member Vinko Nikolic, who testified that he was appointed as the

23 SOS representative on the Crisis Staff at a meeting on the 14th of April,

24 1992. It's true, isn't it, that the SOS worked closely with the SDS in

25 the Serb take-over of Sanski Most?

Page 47368

1 A. That's true. With the proviso that we did not interfere with the

2 authorities. We didn't organise anything. We only helped the

3 enforcement of all the legal provisions. And it is true that

4 Vinko Nikolic was a representative, but we helped it be implemented in

5 accordance with the law. I mean the take-over. That's true. We did not

6 interfere with the authority as such. We only assisted in the process.

7 MS. McKENNA: Could we please see 65 ter number 26053.

8 Q. This is a report on the activities and the participation in

9 combat of the SOS as per the plan of the 6th Krajina Brigade and it's

10 dated 4th September 1992. And if we look it explains that the SOS was

11 formed and placed under the command of the 6th Brigade and then it

12 states: "All actions to date" -- this in the third paragraph down.

13 "All actions to date have been carried out with the approval of

14 the brigade command. Since the establishment of the 6th Brigade, the

15 members of the SOS have carried out many important tasks and activities

16 as the members of the Sanski Most SOS."

17 And it details those activities: Transporting and disseminating

18 weaponry, presence in the theatre of war. It details the capturing of

19 the municipality building, all of the mopping up actions in the territory

20 of the municipality.

21 So is this a fair reflection of how the SOS assisted in the

22 process, as you've just explained?

23 A. The only thing that is correct is that we patrolled. We checked

24 the movement of suspicious individuals and thus prevent the activities of

25 terrorist groups. And as for preventing HDZ and SDA members in terrorist

Page 47369

1 actions, those terrorist actions did not exist in Sanski Most. There

2 were no terrorist actions at all for that matter. If we have in mind the

3 same terrorist actions. There were certain activities but not terrorist

4 activities, not activities of that nature, on any of the sides.

5 Patrolling meant that we helped people in the nearby villages. We would

6 boost their morale by telling them that when they erected barricades or

7 when they held village guards that they should not participate in

8 incidents. If they thought that an incident might occur, that they

9 should inform competent bodies, and that's what we told them. Nothing

10 else.

11 The distribution of arms, no. We never brought any arms to our

12 area. We never distributed any arms to anybody.

13 Q. Mr. Mudrinic, we'll come on to the specifics of the activity of

14 the SOS in a moment.

15 MS. McKENNA: Your Honours, I'd like to tender this document,

16 please.

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll receive it.

18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6681, Your Honours.

19 MS. McKENNA:

20 Q. But I'd like to just focus for the moment on your relationship

21 between -- your relationship with the Crisis Staff. In your statement at

22 paragraph 4 you say that you placed yourself under the command of the TO

23 and then you've explained that you were later subordinated to the

24 6th Brigade. That's in paragraph 8.

25 You received payment from the Crisis Staff, didn't you?

Page 47370

1 A. I've never heard of those monies before. I don't think I

2 received anything. If anything was received, it was not a salary. It

3 was just a -- a minor financial aid for bare necessities. That was all.

4 MS. McKENNA: Could we please see 65 ter number 26052.

5 Q. This is a -- these are the conclusions of a Crisis Staff meeting

6 held on the 16th of June, 1992. And I'd like to focus your attention on

7 item number 3, which states:

8 "Anicic submitted a report on the work of the military police and

9 the activity of Njunja's sabotage platoon called," and there's a word

10 crossed out.

11 That's a reference to Nedjo Anicic, the TO commander, reporting

12 on the SOS, isn't it?

13 A. It is true that Anicic was TO commander.

14 Q. If we look at paragraph 4, it states:

15 "Crisis Staff approved the financial assistance (a reward for the

16 sabotage platoon and a platoon of military police in the amount of a

17 daily subsistence allowance of 1.500 dinars)."

18 So this document shows the commander Anicic reporting to the

19 Crisis Staff on the activities of the SOS and the Crisis Staff approving

20 financial assistance to the SOS; isn't that correct?

21 A. That's what I'm reading, but I never received that financial

22 assistance. And if we did receive anything, like I have just told you,

23 it was just assistance for bare necessities or assistance in kind. I --

24 I'm not aware of this particular financial assistance.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know if I am seeing things

Page 47371

1 well but I would like to see an explanation. I don't see here a

2 reference to the SOS or, rather, that the group was known under that

3 name. Am I missing something here?

4 MS. McKENNA: The witness has just confirmed that the reference

5 to Njunja's sabotage platoon is a reference to the SOS.

6 JUDGE KWON: The question was about paragraph 4. Paragraph 4, 5,

7 6, whether it has any reference to the SOS group. But you can read it.

8 The document speaks for itself.

9 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour. I'd like to tender the

10 document.

11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.

12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6682, Your Honours.

13 MS. McKENNA:

14 Q. Now, Mr. Mudrinic, you just -- we just saw a document where

15 Njunja stated that the SOS transported and disseminated weaponry. You

16 have just claimed that you never distributed arms and that contrasts with

17 the testimony of Mr. Nikolic who told this Trial Chamber that the SOS

18 helped to arm the Serbian people in Sanski Most before the conflict broke

19 out.

20 Now -- I'm sorry, would you like to respond?

21 A. I'm not aware of that at all. That we, as a platoon,

22 disseminated weapons, I'm not aware of that.

23 MS. McKENNA: Your Honours, out of abundance of caution, I'd like

24 to move into private session.

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

Page 47375

1 this, I don't know.

2 Q. Well, let's come on to talk about some of your other pre-war

3 activities.

4 MS. McKENNA: And, Your Honours, I note that a line perhaps need

5 to be redacted.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The last part of the answer. The

9 witness didn't say, "Now why would anybody say that, I don't know." He

10 didn't say "anybody." He said, "Why would he say that, I don't know."

11 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

12 MS. McKENNA:

13 Q. Mr. Mudrinic, and other SOS members were trained in handling

14 explosives. That's correct, isn't it?

15 A. Not correct.

16 Q. Let's look at your own statement.

17 MS. McKENNA: That's 65 ter number 25968.

18 Q. Mr. Mudrinic, this is a statement that you gave on the

19 22nd of December, 1992. You gave it to the Sanski Most police regarding

20 the matter of Njunja's death which had taken place earlier that month.

21 MS. McKENNA: I'm interested in page 5 of the English and page 3

22 of the B/C/S, please. I think we appear to have ... we -- we appear to

23 have the wrong document. I'm interested in 65 ter number 25968.

24 Q. And you state --

25 MS. McKENNA: I'm sorry, could we have the previous page in the

Page 47376

1 English briefly.

2 Q. At the very bottom you say -- of the English you say:

3 "I saw the place where Njunja was lying down and the injuries he

4 had sustained and, in my opinion, and I have been trained in handling

5 explosives, it could have been that the explosive was thrown at the

6 moment Njunja was passing the vehicle. In answer to the question whether

7 the SOS unit members still have their explosives with them, since I have

8 mentioned that they have been trained in handling explosives, I state

9 that I do not know whether they had it with them."

10 So I'll ask you again, Mr. Mudrinic, it's true, isn't it, that

11 you and the other SOS members had been trained in handling explosives?

12 A. My answer is the same. We were never trained in handling

13 explosives. I, as a soldier in the former JNA, was a member of such a

14 unit where I was supposed to be familiar with explosives, but that was in

15 1975.

16 Perhaps that's the reason why I said that I could handle

17 explosives. But for any specific training during the relevant period of

18 time, no, we didn't have any. It's not correct that we were trained in

19 handling explosives.

20 MS. McKENNA: I'd like to tender this document, please.

21 JUDGE KWON: Are you going to refer to this statement further

22 or --

23 MS. McKENNA: Possibly.

24 JUDGE KWON: What page was it --

25 MS. McKENNA: It's --

Page 47377

1 JUDGE KWON: -- page 4?

2 MS. McKENNA: -- pages 4 and 5 of the English.

3 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll admit those two pages.

4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6683, Your Honours.

5 MS. McKENNA:

6 Q. Mr. Mudrinic, it's true, isn't it, that even before the conflict

7 broke out, the SOS were notorious for blowing up buildings belonging to

8 non-Serbs?

9 A. I am not aware of any such explosions that could have blown up

10 buildings in Sanski Most. It is not true that they did that in

11 Sanski Most. And as for an explosion that could blow up a building,

12 honestly, there were no such explosions at all.

13 In the majority of the cases, if there was an explosion, and if

14 we could call them that, it would be a -- a bomb that exploded but that

15 explosion was of a much lesser extent. There was no such an explosion in

16 Sanski Most that could have blown up a building, an entire building.

17 Q. Mr. Mudrinic, there's evidence before this Trial Chamber of

18 SOS bombings of Muslim- and Croat-owned buildings in 1991 and early 1992,

19 including law offices, cafe bars, and other buildings.

20 MS. McKENNA: And for the parties' reference, that's KDZ474,

21 P3395, pages 10 to 19; KDZ490, P3634, pages 31 to 32.

22 Q. You and Njunja personally placed these bombs, didn't you?

23 A. It is not true that I and the late Saovic placed those bombs. I

24 repeat what I've just told you: There were no explosions that could blow

25 up buildings. There were explosions that damaged buildings.

Page 47378

1 Q. And you were responsible for those explosions, weren't you?

2 A. I repeat: We didn't do that. But let me emphasise once again,

3 the police controlled us on several occasions. They checked us, and

4 those were police members of both Serb and Muslim ethnicity, and they

5 never found any weapons or explosives on us. None of the searches of our

6 vehicles or of -- or our bodies revealed anything. There were

7 explosions, but I don't know who was responsible for that. Those

8 explosions usually took place at night. But I don't know who was

9 responsible.

10 And, also, I'd like to say that Serbian buildings were blown up

11 as well.

12 Q. The truth is that no real efforts were made to find those people

13 responsible because the Serb authorities blocked any investigations.

14 That's the truth, isn't it?

15 A. The Serb authorities did try to find the perpetrators. In

16 Serbian public security stations there were also Muslims who worked on

17 that. They were mixed patrols when people and facilities were searched.

18 They tried but they failed. I don't know why they failed. But they

19 worked together, both Serbs and Muslims who were affiliated with the

20 public security station. I repeat: Things like that usually happened at

21 night, and they couldn't cover the entire territory to make sure that

22 things were done successfully.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On line 19, it has been translated

Page 47379

1 as "Serb buildings were also blown up," and the witness said -- said:

2 Serb facilities were blown up.

3 JUDGE KWON: Let's continue.

4 MS. McKENNA:

5 Q. Mr. Mudrinic, the people who you confirmed earlier were SOS

6 member, Milan Camber, Danilusko Kajtez, these people were known

7 criminals, weren't they?

8 A. There were no criminals in -- there were -- there was no crime in

9 Sanski Most and there were even fewer criminals. I can't say that they

10 were criminals. People saw everything. But I don't think that they were

11 criminals. I don't think so. You should open their files and you should

12 see whether they have criminal records. I don't know. There was no

13 crime. There were no criminals in Sanski Most.

14 Q. I --

15 A. At least not to a large extent.

16 MS. McKENNA: I'd like to refer the parties to D4351 and the

17 testimony of KW545 at T 46964 to 46966.

18 Q. But, Mr. Mudrinic, I'd like to show you the testimony of

19 Adil Draganovic, who was the president of the Sanski Most Court before

20 the war, and he testified at some length in another trial before this

21 Tribunal regarding the SOS.

22 MS. McKENNA: Could we please have 65 ter 26047. Unfortunately,

23 we don't have a B/C/S version of this, but I will read it out slowly.

24 He was asked when he first heard of the SOS. And he states:

25 "It's hard for me to define precisely at the time, but I can say

Page 47380

1 that I first heard about some secret Serb organisation who were civilians

2 and that they were rather prone to criminal behaviour, of [sic] setting

3 up of explosives, mining, provoking disorder. I knew most of these

4 people."

5 Could we please skip forward to page 3.

6 And halfway down the page he's asked:

7 "What sort of reputation did these people have?

8 And he responds:

9 "They were mostly problematic persons, meaning their behaviour.

10 I can say that they were criminals, in fact."

11 Q. So you've just told us there was no crime in Sanski Most, no

12 crime to speak of, and yet here is a judge from the court of Sanski Most

13 describing you and your colleagues as criminals.

14 A. I don't know how can I answer the question. I don't know even

15 who the judge is --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness repeat what he said last.

17 MS. McKENNA:

18 Q. Mr. Mudrinic, could you please repeat the end of your answer.

19 You said you don't know who the judge is. Did you have anything else to

20 add?

21 A. I don't know if that's the judge, Ankica Dobrijevic, the judge

22 who described us here as criminals -- well, what I can say is that I'm 57

23 now and never in my life have I had a criminal report filed against me,

24 and I have never been convicted, of course. So if a judge described me

25 as a criminal, then just on that account it must be right. I have not

Page 47381

1 been brought before a single court in Bosnia-Herzegovina for any offence.

2 Q. Well, let's see what this judge said about you personally,

3 Mr. Mudrinic. He goes on to describe how --

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I? Excuse me.

5 Can we ask the Prosecutor to tell the witness whose statement

6 this is? Because obviously the witness doesn't understand which judge is

7 involved here.

8 JUDGE KWON: I think she mentioned Adil Draganovic.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, he mentioned another name, but it's

11 Adil Draganovic.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, as for Adil Draganovic, that

13 judge, what I can say, in addition to the fact that I have never been

14 prosecuted, is that he may have been involved in crime.

15 When I arrived in Banja Luka, I was informed by him, this is

16 something that arrived to my address of residence, that he as the

17 president of the court in Sanski Most issued an injunction against me on

18 any sale of immovable property.

19 MS. McKENNA:

20 Q. Mr. Mudrinic -- Mr. Mudrinic, I -- perhaps Mr. Karadzic will like

21 to go into this in this re-direct. I'd like to focus right now on what

22 Mr. Draganovic said about you in his testimony before another Chamber of

23 this Tribunal.

24 He's asked -- and this is in the next page. He describes the

25 fact that your group were terrorising the town, provoking fear among the

Page 47382

1 population and every night they were blowing up a building belonging to

2 Bosniaks. And he's asked:

3 "What about attacks on people? Did they carry out attacks on

4 people as well?"

5 And he says:

6 "Yes, absolutely. They also attacked people. On one occasion, I

7 was in a situation when a teacher called me on the phone, a secondary ...

8 teacher from Sanski Most grammar school. His name was Blaz Grgic. He

9 was a teacher of German. He told me that his apartment had been broken

10 into and that he been robbed, that he was robbed of a large sum of money,

11 and that he had -- he was -- he told me that this was done by two persons

12 whose names were Dusan Saovic, aka Njunja, and Dusan Mudrinic, aka

13 Medeni, who already then were feared in town, together with other members

14 of that group. He did not dare report it to the police ... at that time.

15 So I called him to come with [sic] with me and I interviewed him.

16 "After that interview, I had reasonable grounds to believe these

17 persons did commit this offence. I then reported this to the police, and

18 I ordered for this to be investigated. However, the following day, that

19 is ... they went into the school centre with weapons. They were armed.

20 And they attacked the teacher, who was then forced to flee ...

21 Sanski Most either the next day or the following days."

22 Mr. Mudrinic, you personally attacked and intimidated non-Serbs,

23 including this school teacher, didn't you?

24 A. That's not correct. All the non-Serb population, and I state

25 this under full responsibility, of all the military and the authorities,

Page 47383

1 it was the late Saovic and I that they placed most of the trust in. They

2 were not attacked in the street. None of the Muslims who stayed behind

3 in Sanski Most were ever harmed. What's more, they even socialised with

4 us.

5 As for this Professor Blaz, it is true that he accused Saovic and

6 I, that we broke into his apartment and stole his effects. This case

7 ended up in the public security station. They attended the scene,

8 carried out on an on-site investigation and established that the flat was

9 not broken into at all, that the lock had not been forced or anything of

10 the sort.

11 Later on, in certain circles he confessed that he had given the

12 money that he claimed was stolen to the party but he couldn't admit this

13 to his wife.

14 It's true that -- it's not true that Saovic and I went chasing

15 after him with weapons. We never carried weapons in town. It was only

16 on rare occasions. We would normally walk about the town in civilian

17 clothes and without weapons, and this is something that all the Muslims

18 who stayed behind in Sanski Most can attest to. So I do not agree with

19 the statement given here by this man, Blaz. What can you think of a man

20 who claims to have had his apartment burgled and then when police come to

21 inspect the scene, they find out that the lock had not been forced, that

22 none of the windows had been forced, so how can the flat have been broken

23 into?

24 Q. Mr. Mudrinic --

25 A. It was because of this -- I'm sorry. It was because of this that

Page 47384

1 I was taken to court. The court established that, on the facts of the

2 case, the apartment could not have been broken into and all the charges

3 were dropped.

4 Q. You've referred to the Muslims who stayed behind and we'll come

5 on to discuss that. But in paragraph 13 of your statement, you say that

6 even before the outbreak of the conflict, Muslims had begun to move out

7 of the municipality.

8 That was precisely your aim in the SOS, wasn't it, to terrorise

9 Muslims into leaving the municipality?

10 A. In which way we could have terrorised Muslims, I don't think we

11 did. As for people we knew better personally, we told them they didn't

12 need to leave the city, that proper government will be established, that

13 life would come to normal again. In any case, we didn't drive them away.

14 On the contrary, we tried to persuade them to stay. And it was them who

15 wished to leave.

16 MS. McKENNA: Could we please see P3397.

17 Q. Mr. Mudrinic, you've said that there was no crime to speak of in

18 Sanski Most and you've said that you were -- the SOS certainly wasn't

19 involved in any explosions. I'll like to see what Njunja and your fellow

20 SOS members stated.

21 This is a report on the work and activities of the SOS between

22 the 1st of May and 16th of September -- excuse me, the 1st of May, 1991,

23 and the 16th of September, 1992. And Mr. Nikolic confirmed to this

24 Trial Chamber that it was signed by Njunja, Cankovic, and himself.

25 MS. McKENNA: Could we please see page 2 of the English and

Page 47385

1 page 3 of the B/C/S.

2 It's the second paragraph in the B/C/S and the second-last

3 paragraph on the page in the English and it states:

4 "We never allowed large gatherings of SDA and HDZ to take place

5 at any stage, and we broke up any such gathering in the usual way. The

6 SDS from Sanski Most is our witness that we put them into power. It's

7 unbearable to think that what could have happened if we had not acted in

8 this way. Blowing up buildings was not in anyone's interest, but we

9 could not crush the Ustashas and the Green Berets any other way."

10 Q. And that's the truth, isn't it, Mr. Mudrinic, the SOS blew up

11 buildings owned by Muslims and Croats and attacked the non-Serb

12 population in order to sow fear among that population and intimidate them

13 into leaving the municipality?

14 A. Partially I cannot -- in fact, I cannot agree with this because,

15 again, reference is made to the blowing up of buildings and everything,

16 and these explosions that happened were not major explosions. Those were

17 perhaps hand-grenades that were thrown. I'd like to emphasise that

18 nobody was hurt or wounded or killed by these hand-grenades. As for

19 intimidation, I don't know what they consider to be intimidation. If we

20 appeared in a certain place when we had an advance report that they would

21 gather and we showed up there to stop it, maybe that was their thinking.

22 Q. The SOS used a truck with a triple-barrelled machine-gun mounted

23 on it, didn't they?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And you and Njunja were in charge of operating that truck?

Page 47388

1 MS. McKENNA:

2 Q. Actually, at paragraph 11 -- 11 and 20 of your statement, you say

3 that people came to the collection centres of their own free will for

4 protection. And you say at paragraph 19 that you don't know that loyal,

5 honest people of Sanski Most municipality were brought in, maltreated or

6 interrogated.

7 Now witnesses have described before this Trial Chamber, Muslim

8 witnesses have described men, women, and children being rounded up and

9 brought to the detention centres, including Krings Hall and the sports

10 hall, and either detained there or transported out of the municipality.

11 And these witnesses described how they didn't choose to go there. They

12 were rounded up and detained under armed guard.

13 That's the reality of what was happening, isn't it?

14 A. The reality of what happened is that after this operation in

15 Mahala, the Muslims who lived in Mahala wanted to be in one place, not to

16 be scattered across various streets, and this sports hall was chosen. It

17 was not a closed facility. It was open. They were able to go home and

18 visit. They were able to go do some shopping, but the civilian police

19 was there to provide security. And I don't know that anybody took

20 anybody else outside of town.

21 As for this Krings Hall, I've never been there.

22 Q. The SOS assisted the SJB in taking Muslims and Croats into

23 custody. That's correct, isn't it?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And -- for instance, you, Mr. Mudrinic, led the group of men who

Page 47389

1 arrested Mirzet Karabeg, didn't you?

2 A. I was there and I remember clearly. I never detained him, nor

3 did I take him for an interview. I was just passing by when his sister,

4 who used to be my teacher of Serbian, told me that I was responsible for

5 him, and I said, Why should I be responsible? I'm just taking him for an

6 interview. But I didn't take him anywhere.

7 Q. Mr. Karabeg testified in this case that on the 25th of May, 1992,

8 he was arrested by two vehicles full of eight armed individuals and taken

9 to the police station. And that's at P3303, page 73.

10 Now, he gave more details on his arrest at -- in his testimony in

11 the Krajisnik case. And I'm going to read to you what he said in that

12 case. He said:

13 "I was arrested at home, and it was the people that I just

14 identified," and he had listed Dusan Mudrinic, Dusko Savija, Tomo Delic,

15 Dane Kajtez, "it was the people I had just identified that arrested me.

16 They were led by Dusan Mudrinic, also known as Medeni."

17 And he's asked:

18 "Where did they take you?"

19 And he responds:

20 "They took me to the police station. Medeni told me that Rasula

21 and other police officers wanted to see me and have an interview with

22 me."

23 So it's not the truth is it, Mr. Mudrinic, that you were just

24 simply passing by? You were leading the group of men who arrested

25 Mr. Karabeg and you did so on the instructions of Crisis Staff president,

Page 47390

1 Rasula.

2 A. I maintain here that I never detained or arrested Mirzet Karabeg.

3 All I know is that outside the building of the SUP his sister told me I

4 was responsible for him. I said, Why would be I responsible? I'm not

5 the executive authorities, I'm nothing. Why I would be responsible? I

6 was not the law. I was not enforcing the law. I only assisted in

7 certain times when there was not enough police. And I didn't go there

8 voluntarily, only when I was summoned. They told me: You know, we don't

9 have enough men. Can you give us three or four men to help the civilian

10 police? The civilian police did the detaining and we were there just to

11 provide some security so as to avoid incidents. I was not executive

12 authority. I was just a simple soldier who provided assistance whenever

13 that was required.

14 As for explaining things to people why they need to go for an

15 interview, that was all done by civilian policemen. I was there to

16 prevent incidents.

17 JUDGE KWON: So, Mr. Mudrinic --

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

19 JUDGE KWON: So, Mr. Mudrinic, do you agree that you assisted or

20 provided some security when police arrested Mr. Karabeg?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Was I assisting?

22 JUDGE KWON: That's what you said. You assisted on some

23 certain -- on certain times. And you referred to providing security.

24 So my question is whether you provided security when civilian

25 police arrested Mr. Karabeg.

Page 47391

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 32, line 5. What is recorded

4 is exactly opposite to what the witness said. The witness said: I did

5 not take him in for an interview.

6 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I think that should be corrected.

7 You agree, Mr. Mudrinic, having said so?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never took that man in for an

9 interview. I was not there.

10 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.

11 MS. McKENNA: Thank you.

12 Q. Let's talk about the type of assistance that the SOS members were

13 providing to the --

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript. The witness didn't

15 say, I wasn't there. He just said, on that occasion, he did not bring

16 him in. Line 4.

17 And I would like to ask the witness to speak slowly and to

18 enunciate in order to avoid this confusion.

19 JUDGE KWON: Do you agree, Mr. Mudrinic, with Mr. Karadzic's

20 comment?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree.

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

23 MS. McKENNA:

24 Q. Witnesses, Mr. Mudrinic, witnesses have described the beatings

25 that took place at Sanski Most police building, including by your SOS

Page 47392

1 colleague, Danilusko Kajtez.

2 You knew these beatings were taking place, didn't you?

3 A. My task as an assistant to the civilian police was to bring that

4 man for an interview. When my task was over and I left, what was done by

5 inspectors in the public security station, how they were interrogated, I

6 don't know.

7 Q. So let me just clarify your testimony, Mr. Mudrinic. You -- do

8 you accept that you brought Mr. Karabeg in for an interview?

9 A. I do not accept that. I know on three occasions I operated as

10 assistant to the civilian police. I know the names and surnames of these

11 people whom I assisted, with whom I assisted. And, as for

12 Mirzet Karabeg, I don't know.

13 Q. Okay. Well, you say you didn't know of the beatings that were

14 taking place at the SJB. Did you know of the beatings that were taking

15 place at the Betonirka facility by -- conducted by SOS members,

16 including, again, Mr. Kajtez. Were you aware of those beatings?

17 A. I'll repeat once again: Concerning the beatings at the public

18 security station, I didn't know about that because I was not there.

19 Concerning the beatings in Betonirka, I heard there had been beatings but

20 I had nothing do with it whatsoever. I was not the warden. I wasn't

21 anything. I heard about it, but I wasn't present and I didn't see them.

22 Q. You --

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

24 JUDGE KWON: Yes?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 8 again. It says after the

Page 47393

1 words "Mirzet Karabeg," "I don't know." The witness said: "I didn't,"

2 not "I don't know." Perhaps we can listen to the tape.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness is speaking

4 very inarticulately, in addition to very fast.

5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mudrinic, do you confirm that you said so?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE KWON: We'll take a break and resume -- continue at 11.00.

8 But, Mr. Mudrinic, could you speak much slower when we resume so

9 that the interpreters can understand you well.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. I understood.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. McKenna, please continue.

14 MS. McKENNA: Thank you.

15 Q. Mr. Mudrinic, you and your SOS colleagues facilitated the

16 transfer of detainees from Sanski Most to Manjaca camp. That's correct,

17 isn't it?

18 A. It is correct that seven -- six or seven or eight of our

19 members - I don't know how many exactly - co-operated with the police,

20 and they assisted the police. They were aboard the buses.

21 Q. An eye-witness, Sakib Muhic, saw your SOS colleagues Milan Camber

22 and Danilusko Kajtez beat six men to death outside the Manjaca camp.

23 Were you aware of that incident?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Mr. Mudrinic, it's a fact, isn't it, that the SOS not only

Page 47394

1 rounded up Serbs -- non-Serbs and brought them into detention, its

2 members also participated in the mistreatment and killings that occurred

3 in the detention camps?

4 A. The SOS members were not in detention camps -- camps at all. I

5 repeat: They were only on the escort of the buses on the way to the

6 camps. I know for a fact that they did not linger in the camp. They

7 were only there on the way to the camp.

8 Q. In paragraph 10 --

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

10 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 14, the previous page, it

12 says they were aboard buses. Whereas he said they were aboard the buses,

13 one each. Assisting the police. So one was on each of the buses.

14 JUDGE KWON: Do you agree, Mr. Mudrinic?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I said.

16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

17 MS. McKENNA:

18 Q. In paragraph 10 of your statement, you say that after the

19 conflict broke out, some individuals and groups took advantage of that

20 situation by engaging in looting and some crimes were committed, but the

21 Serbian authorities tried to put a stop to that situation and bring it

22 under control as soon as possible.

23 Now, Mr. Mudrinic, in your statement of the 22nd of December,

24 1992, you refer to your cafe Leli. That cafe was forcibly taken from

25 Muslim Reuf Sadic, wasn't it?

Page 47395

1 A. What I can say about this is that it's not true that the cafe was

2 forcefully seized. The Muslim's name is Eko Sadic. I was a permanent

3 guest in that cafe, and I was on very friendly terms with this Muslim.

4 His wife is a Serb, so they were in a mixed marriage. They used to live

5 in Switzerland. She stayed behind and he returned of his own initiative.

6 Or, actually, it was at his own initiative that the two of us went to a

7 lawyer, Panic, where we drew up a contract on the basis of which I would

8 take over his cafe. After I had taken his cafe over, the man did not

9 leave. He would stay in the cafe as before, and his security or safety

10 wasn't threatened.

11 So it is not true that it was seized from him. It was at his own

12 initiative that we drew up the papers at a lawyer's. It wasn't just the

13 cafe. There was a dwelling unit above the cafe. So I repeat: It's not

14 true that it was seized from him.

15 Q. Njunja took the Gold Cafe from a Muslim goldsmith, didn't he?

16 A. Equally, the owner, Fikret Zlatar, gifted or gave the cafe over

17 to Saovic. After he did this, he stayed in Sanski Most for a while. So

18 he didn't leave right away. And, again, it was not forcefully taken.

19 Q. Goran Cankovic, another SOS member, his Spider cafe also used to

20 belong to a Muslim, didn't it?

21 A. Goran Cankovic had a cafe of his own. The owner of the cafe

22 Spider was his very close friend who similarly handed the cafe over to

23 him. And he also frequented the cafe later and stayed there.

24 There were also instances where cafes would be rented out by the

25 municipality or would be handed over by friends. What I can state for

Page 47396

1 these specific cases is that the cafes in question had not been

2 forcefully taken.

3 What's more, the owner of the cafe that I kept, at one point said

4 that he wanted to go out to visit his wife. He decided that he should

5 leave, though I tried to persuade him against it, but I placed him on the

6 bus, and I spoke to him on the phone later when he was in Germany. His

7 wife came back during the war. I gave her the keys to the apartment

8 upstairs. She wanted to collect her belongings. She was glad [Realtime

9 transcript read in error "blad"] that it had not been damaged or that it

10 had not been taken up by anyone else and then she went. So the owner,

11 when returned from Germany to Sanski Most, he telephoned me and we spoke.

12 There were no problems. So they were not forcibly taken.

13 Q. Mr. Mudrinic, you sold --

14 THE ACCUSED: Transcript.

15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 1, page 39, "she was blad,"

17 it says. He said that she was happy to see that it had not been damaged

18 and was grateful for it. I don't know what "blad" is.

19 JUDGE KWON: It's a -- I think it's a typo of "glad." Happy and

20 glad. Yes. Shall we continue.

21 MS. McKENNA:

22 Q. Vojo Dosenovic's cafe, Cobra, that also used to belong to a

23 Muslim, didn't it?

24 A. I don't remember that cafe. I can't remember the cafe Cobra.

25 Q. So all these cafes that were gifted by Muslims to you and your

Page 47397

1 SOS colleagues, your own cafe, you sold that on -- at a profit, your own

2 profit, didn't you?

3 A. That's not true. As for the cafe that I kept, since there was no

4 combat in that area, the cafe was renovated by the owner's own brother,

5 who lived next door. He was a valued businessman in Sanski Most. A

6 carpenter. He spoke to his brother in Germany, and at my initiative, he

7 renovated the cafe. His brother would sit with me there. I didn't sell

8 it to anyone. I didn't give it to anyone. When I left Sanski Most, the

9 cafe stayed behind in nobody's ownership -- or, actually, in the

10 ownership of what was properly the rightful owner.

11 Q. You and your SOS colleagues drove around in cars appropriated

12 from Muslims, didn't you?

13 A. There were cars that had been taken from Muslims, but there were

14 also cars which were, just like the cafes, gifted to friends.

15 Q. Mr. Mudrinic, you mentioned in your statement the mosques which

16 were destroyed. You and your SOS colleagues were among those who blew

17 them up, weren't you?

18 A. That's not true. We didn't blow up mosques.

19 Q. The truth is, Mr. Mudrinic, that it was your group that you say

20 the authorities were trying to control, and yet they weren't controlled.

21 They weren't controlled because they were operating hand in hand with the

22 authorities. That's the truth, isn't it?

23 A. I cannot agree with the statement that the authorities could not

24 keep us under control because we were available at the disposal of the

25 authorities 24/7. We were all in a hall in downtown Sanski Most, up --

Page 47398

1 upstairs from us there was a radio device [as interpreted], so we were

2 there, present, at the disposal of the authorities, and they could always

3 get in touch with us.

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes that the witness said

5 something about the phones that we didn't understand.

6 MS. McKENNA:

7 Q. Mr. Mudrinic, you said -- can you repeat what you said about

8 phones.

9 A. Yes, I can. There were no telephone lines. There was no

10 communication. The majority of our members, of the members of our unit,

11 lived some 5, 6, or 7 kilometres away from the town proper, in the

12 neighbouring villages. So that if the authorities needed us at some

13 point, we wouldn't be able to get in touch with them. That's why we

14 decided, together with the authorities, that all of us should spend

15 nights in the centre of town in a building, in the sports hall, where

16 they would always be able to contact us. So it's not true that they

17 weren't able to have us under control.

18 Q. Thank you. Now --

19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 18, page 40, it says "radio

21 device," whereas it should read "the Sanski Most radio station."

22 JUDGE KWON: Hmm. Yes, thank you.

23 MS. McKENNA:

24 Q. Mr. Mudrinic, you've -- in your statement, you repeatedly

25 refer -- and again today you have repeatedly referred to Muslims leaving

Page 47407

1 round up local Muslims and you handed them over to detention and, in many

2 instances, to their death.

3 Now, you were intimately involved in the crimes that were

4 occurring in Sanski Most, and it is in your personal interest to lie

5 about those crimes and your role in them. That's the truth, isn't it?

6 A. I'll repeat: We did not commit crimes. We did not assist Arkan

7 when he came. We did not blow up buildings. All the statements went

8 through myself and Saovic, and if anybody was not clear on something, it

9 would have been either Mudrinic or Saovic. I can't agree with what it

10 says here, that we intimidated people. The 5- or 6.000 people who

11 remained in Sanski Most came to look for us, to help them if there was

12 even a -- the slightest provocation. In any case, we helped everybody.

13 We did not abduct anybody. We did not take anybody out of their house or

14 beat them or ill treat them in any way.

15 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. McKenna.

17 Mr. Karadzic do you have re-examination?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellencies.

19 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, we will start with last things

21 first. In the statement 26034, the person says that in 1995, in the

22 zone, there were only 30 per cent Muslims. How does this tally with your

23 experience? Did she overestimate the figure or underestimate it?

24 A. I did not understand your question. What --

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. McKenna.

Page 47408

1 MS. McKENNA: I object to this question because it is not related

2 to the topic that we dealt with in the statement.

3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor claims that Muslims

7 were either expelled or being expelled, and this person here in the

8 statement said there were 30 per cent in 1995, and that she herself lived

9 in the house with her husband in 1995.

10 I'm asking the witness were they expelled and if they were,

11 indeed, how come the 30 per cent that remained living there were not

12 expelled.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody was expelled. And the

14 30 per cent that remained -- when we're talking about per cent --

15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mudrinic, question was not yet asked. But ...

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll allow you to continue.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. According to what you knew or according to your estimate, how

21 many Muslims lived in Sanski Most in September 1995? Here, in the

22 statement, we see 30 per cent. Do you think that there were more or

23 less?

24 A. I believe that there were about 5.000 Muslims. I don't know how

25 many that would be in percentages because I don't know how many were

Page 47409

1 there before the war. But I believe there were about 5.000.

2 Q. What was the decisive factor for some of them to stay living in

3 Sanski Most or -- and the others to leave, was it expulsion?

4 A. No, there were no expulsion drives. Those who wanted to stay,

5 they stayed. And those who wanted to leave, they left. There were a lot

6 of troops in Sanski Most, coming from all sides, and when various

7 municipalities fell, people withdrew from those municipalities and then

8 a -- Muslims started expressing their wish to leave Sanski Most and to go

9 to third countries. Some of them had sent their children away first.

10 Q. Thank you. On page 9, you were asked whether your nickname is

11 Medeni. Since many participants in the trial do not speak the Serbian

12 language, could you please tell us whether that nickname means something

13 in the Serbian language? What does it mean?

14 A. This means sweet or honey-bunch.

15 Q. It is derived from the word "honey"; right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Well, it doesn't sound cruel to me, does it?

18 A. It's not cruel, no. No way.

19 Q. Thank you. On page 43, you said that (redacted) was in

20 prison in Bihac. Whose prison was that and why?

21 MS. McKENNA: If I may interrupt. I believe that we might need

22 to move into private session.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. Perhaps the name can

24 be redacted.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 47410

1 Q. You spoke about a person who was in Bihac in prison. Whose

2 prison was that? And why was the person there?

3 A. Throughout the war, he lived with us. We had grown up together.

4 We had attended school together. And when we left Sanski Most, he left

5 with us. The Muslims looked for him. They knew his name. They wanted

6 to learn about us because he had been with us all the time. He slept

7 with us. He was a very honest guy. And then the Muslims from

8 Sanski Most started looking for him to be exchanged. He expressed a wish

9 to remain living in Prijedor with us. But he eventually went there, and

10 as far as I heard, he was interrogated there. He was sent to the prison

11 in Bihac. There he was interviewed again. He was ill-treated, he was

12 beaten, but then he was released. I heard from a Muslim friend who came

13 to Banja Luka, after he was released from prison, for four or five months

14 he drunk heavily and he died five or six months later. In any case, he

15 was in the prison in Bihac and that prison was under Muslim control.

16 Q. Thank you. On page 40, you were asked about cars which were

17 confiscated. Who was it who confiscated them and why?

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could all the unnecessary microphones please be

19 switched off. Thank you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The cars were confiscated by

21 individuals from Muslims. Why, I don't know on what grounds. I don't

22 know on what grounds they were confiscated. However, most of those cars

23 were gifted to friends, to Serbian friends, by Muslims, to avoid those

24 cars falling into disrepair or something. In a majority of the cases, if

25 the Muslim who gifted the car to somebody had to be helped or if somebody

Page 47411

1 had to be taken to hospital or if he needed any assistance, that could be

2 arranged. It was all based on arrangements.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Thank you. And what about the cars which were driven by SOS

5 members? Who had confiscated them and on what grounds? Did the police

6 confiscate cars from both Serbs and Muslims and on what grounds?

7 A. Cars were, indeed, confiscated. The police did confiscate cars.

8 If somebody changed their mind, the police would then return the car to

9 the Muslims who had changed his mind.

10 Q. On page 39 it was suggested that you were given business premises

11 as gifts. Were the business premises gifted to you or was there any

12 contract? And what was the wording in the contracts?

13 A. The Prosecutor did mention several shops, and I know about those

14 three first shops that there was a contract drafted by a lawyer, and that

15 person who -- who was involved was sitting next to me. And when it comes

16 to the other shops, allegedly, they were auctioned off by the

17 municipality. I'm not sure about that.

18 Q. Thank you. Were those private shops or socially owned shops?

19 A. They were -- I apologise. There were also socially owned shops

20 which were held by people.

21 Q. When we're talking about your contract, did you sign it as a

22 member of the SOS or as a private individual?

23 A. I signed it as a private individual, and the person who co-signed

24 it was my very good friend. And the whole thing was done on his

25 initiative. And after that, he continued being a patron of that shop,

Page 47412

1 until the moment he decided to leave.

2 Q. On page 23 -- and I don't know whether it was in private session

3 or not. It wasn't because the person testified in open court.

4 You were shown Adil Draganovic's statement. He was the president

5 of the court in Sanski Most before the war. And you said that he may

6 have been involved in crimes. Who was he? Who was that person? Would

7 you say that his testimony against the Serbs in Sanski Most was

8 objective?

9 A. Adil worked at the court at that time too. I don't know if I can

10 say this, but he was not very popular among people. He was not popular

11 with me, that's sure. I was informed by the court in Sanski Most, to my

12 address, that a ban has been placed on me regarding the sale of real

13 estate. And in that ban, it is written that Nedeljko Rasula, the wife of

14 late Saovic, and myself, and one Professor Bosko Banjac should collect

15 100.000 Deutschmark to give him, and then he, as the president of the

16 court, will lift that ban on the sale of real estate from us.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown D4174.

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. You mentioned that he was perhaps involved in some criminal

20 dealings. Was it extortion -- this extortion of 100.000 Deutschmark the

21 only crime he was involved in or did you hear about other things?

22 A. No, I didn't.

23 Q. Look at this, please. Can you tell us under whose control and

24 where is Buzim, and the public prosecutor's office there, under whose

25 control was it?

Page 47413

1 A. I believe it was under the control of Bihac.

2 Q. Which ethnic community?

3 A. Muslim.

4 Q. Now please look down below, criminal reports and decisions of the

5 municipal court after the war are listed, (c), it says:

6 Pursuant to the decision of the municipal court, ordered an

7 unauthorised payment of 1.000 [as interpreted] Deutschemark to the

8 benefit of the Islamic religious community of Sanski Most.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we turn the next page in

10 English.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Paragraph 2, it says he embezzled from the budget of Buzim

13 187.961 Deutschmark. Does that sound like him?

14 A. Well, if he asked us do collect and give him 100.000 German

15 marks, then this sounds plausible. It's probably correct.

16 Q. What kind of man was he when it came to political issues and

17 resolving the crisis? Why was he brought into custody? Why was he

18 treated as a suspect?

19 A. He was extreme in his views. And he was inclined to these

20 things.

21 Q. What was Sarcevic Ismet, Sabic Suad, Mirzet Karabeg, what were

22 these people like?

23 MS. McKENNA: Objection.

24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

25 MS. McKENNA: I don't see how this comes from the

Page 47414

1 cross-examination.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can restrict myself to

3 Mirzet Karabeg. That does emanate from the cross.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Karabeg was an extremist and that's

5 probably why he was taken into custody and questioned.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Thank you.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we briefly show D5 to this

9 witness.

10 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Can we go back to the previous

11 document. D4174.

12 You answered to Mr. Karadzic that this prosecutor's office was

13 under the control of Muslim community.

14 Can we see the last page? It's written by a gentleman -- a

15 Zlatko Pozderac. Can you tell us about the ethnicity of this author?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's a Muslim.

17 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

18 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. What about this family, Pozderac? Were they well-known?

21 A. They are well-known mostly by a former official from that family,

22 Hamdija Pozderac.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we briefly show D5.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. 27 -- sorry, 7 March 1992, an operative officer of the state

Page 47415

1 security, the joint state security, writes about extremists in

2 Sanski Most who are procuring weapons for the Green Berets, and among

3 them are Adil Draganovic and Mirzet Karabeg.

4 How is this consistent with what you know?

5 A. Well, from what I know, these two did do these things, and they

6 were the most extreme people in the SDA party.

7 Q. On page 18 of today's LiveNote, it is said that allegedly in

8 1992, you used to go to the barracks in Prijedor and brought back

9 weapons.

10 My first question is: Did the SOS in Sanski Most exist before

11 that date on the proclamation of their establishment in Lusci Palanka?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Second, were you part of the Territorial Defence of Sanski Most?

14 A. Yes, we were.

15 Q. The distribution of JNA weapons from the barracks to the

16 Territorial Defence men, was it legal or not? It doesn't matter whether

17 you did it or not.

18 A. It is not illegal.

19 Q. Thank you. In one of those statements - I want to avoid closing

20 the session - it is said that in September 1995 and throughout the war,

21 whatever was done was done on the orders of the Crisis Staff of

22 Sanski Most.

23 Do you know how long the Crisis Staff of Sanski Most existed?

24 When was it abolished?

25 A. I don't know the exact date.

Page 47416

1 Q. Do you know the year? Did it exist in 1995, the Crisis Staff?

2 A. No. Because the state of war had already been declared. It did

3 not exist. I don't think it did.

4 Q. Thank you. In the document that was recently admitted, P6682,

5 page 15, it is said that as of 18 June 1992, you were no longer called

6 SOS but you were called instead the sabotage or intervention platoon.

7 Why were you no longer called SOS?

8 A. Because we were inducted into the 4th Sana Brigade as the

9 intervention platoon of the 6th Sana Brigade, but the people were already

10 used in their minds to seeing us and calling us SOS. Although, from that

11 time on, we were really the intervention battalion of the

12 6th Sana Brigade.

13 Q. Before they joined the SOS, were some of its members already

14 notorious or convicted criminals? I'm talking about after they joined.

15 A. There were no criminals among them.

16 Q. And my last question: Were you the only group that was called

17 SOS? And what is the core of your disagreements with the authorities?

18 A. In Banja Luka, there was another group also called SOS but we had

19 absolutely no connection to them. The Croatian armed forces had already

20 been formed, and the Muslim armed forces as well, so we just picked a

21 name for ourselves: Serbian Defence Forces. Similar to HOS.

22 Q. Was it the Serb Armed Forces or the Serb Defence Forces, SOS,

23 both?

24 A. Serb Defence Forces.

25 Q. Was there anyone else in Sanski Most with the same name? And did

Page 47417

1 you have to prove to the authorities who is who?

2 A. Not -- there was no one else in Sanski Most called that way, but

3 there were cases when somebody else represented themselves falsely as

4 SOS, committing robberies and looting. But then we called the president

5 of the municipality and the commander of the Territorial Defence, and we

6 took them to the premises where we were quartered. We gave them a list

7 of all the young men who were there. They were able to see that the men

8 had stayed in that hall. And the president of the municipality and the

9 commander of the TO got into the car together and drove to the Muslim

10 part of the town and found people with tractors -- tractors and

11 wheel-barrows who had written "SOS" on these vehicles and committed

12 robberies and looted, et cetera.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. McKenna.

16 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, if I may, I'd like to ask just one

17 question related to the topic of the re-examination.

18 JUDGE KWON: And which -- related to which?

19 MS. McKENNA: The ban on real estate imposed by Mr. Draganovic.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please proceed, Ms. McKenna.

22 MS. McKENNA: Thank you.

23 Further Cross-examination by Ms. McKenna:

24 Q. Mr. Mudrinic, you talked about the ban on the sale of real estate

25 placed on you, Mr. Rasula, and Mr. Saovic. That ban was because

Page 47428

1 were deployed across the whole complex, which covered a very large area.

2 Mr. Gruban did not -- is not aware of any case of rape, assault,

3 or humiliation of prisoners. To his knowledge, no one was targeted on

4 the basis of their education or religion or other affiliation.

5 And that is short summary. Now I would ask Mr. Gruban about the

6 documents.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Gruban, you have kindly brought us two documents which are

9 connected with your statement and your line of duty.

10 Please explain to us what it is about.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown 1D49067.

12 We only need one. And can it be enlarged, please.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Can you help us, Mr. Gruban, tell us what is this that we are

15 looking at? And who drew it and who wrote the notes?

16 A. Well, we see the ground floor of the administration building of

17 the Omarska mine, where people were detained. I myself wrote the notes

18 because I was working there, and I was fully familiar with the premises.

19 I can tell you exactly where the people stayed, and I even know

20 the area surface. In preparation for my testimony, I drew this up

21 because I wanted to show to all the parties in the proceedings, including

22 the Judges, what the actual situation was like.

23 Q. Can you tell Their Honours what does A1 stand for, A2, et cetera?

24 A. A1 is the garage which was intended for the official vehicle.

25 It's got 21.16 square metres. 4.60 by 4.60 metres are the dimensions.

Page 47429

1 Q. You don't have to go into that much detail. Just let us know

2 what the rooms were used for, and then as your testimony goes along,

3 we'll clarify this. Can you explain this further?

4 A. A3 were the five booths with toilets and four urinals. A4, we

5 had ten water taps. A5 is the entranceway in the administrative building

6 on the eastern side. A6 depicts five booths on each side with showers.

7 A7 and A8 are all rooms equipped with showers, so there's a total of 25

8 in all. 25 showers in this area.

9 Before the war, the rooms were used by the workers in the Omarska

10 surface mine. AD is the area where they had their lockers, where the

11 dressing room was. And, of course, the showers were for them to clean

12 themselves at the end of their shift before they went to home.

13 Q. Thanks. What is A22?

14 A. A22 is the canteen, the dining hall. 243 square metres is the

15 surface --

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the dimensions.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As workers we would have our meals

18 here. Later on, when the detainees were held here, this is where their

19 meals would be distributed to them.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. A19 again we see taps and toilets mentioned?

22 A. Yes. It is like an ante-chamber to the dining hall, where one

23 could use the toilet facilities and water taps to wash their hands. When

24 the detainees were here, in A19, there were medical nurses there, and

25 they used certain -- some sort of a chlorine solution or something like

Page 47430

1 that that people had to dowse themselves with to prevent any sort of

2 infection.

3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Line 8, witness said: "AD is the

4 area where they had their lockers." I can't find AD in the schematic --

5 in the schematic.

6 Yes, Mr. Gruban.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's A9. The large room that you

8 can see. A9, not D.

9 THE ACCUSED: In Serbian, 9 is devet, with D.

10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, thank you. Please continue.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Did you have any instances of infection spreading or epidemics

13 while you were there?

14 A. I know of one case involving a person. I can't tell you what the

15 disease was. But we had a nurse present there. At this time, there was

16 a shortage of fuel. Since I had been employed in the mine and I was

17 familiar with the machinery, I went to one of these pieces of machinery,

18 decanted the fuel in order to take the individual to the hospital in

19 Banja Luka. He was hospitalised there, treated, and is alive and well,

20 thank God, and we are still in contact today.

21 Q. Thank you. Could you please speak slowly. What is number 14?

22 A. Number 14 is a glazed-in area, like a conservatory, outside the

23 entrance to the building, and prisoners were also held there.

24 Q. What about number 15? Did we confuse the two?

25 A. Number 15 is the entrance from the south into the administration

Page 47431

1 building.

2 Q. Thank you. Where is the kitchen? Can we see it from here?

3 A. You mean the conveyor belt for the distribution of food. Food

4 were delivered in tin plates into 28, and 23 was the conveyor line. That

5 was the same before the war and during the time when people were held

6 there.

7 Q. How about the use of this building before the war, before

8 detainees were held there?

9 A. Yes. It was the building of the mine. It was first used during

10 the war to keep detainees, and then later Serbian troops and Serbian

11 refugees from Sanski Most, Drvar, Petrovac, et cetera.

12 Q. Thank you. Was the building repaired, maintained, renovated

13 between the time when detainees were held there and the time when Serbian

14 troops and refugees were held?

15 A. No. The first reconstruction was in 2004, when company Mittal

16 took the mine over. The facade and -- and the outside structure was

17 repaired a bit but nothing was done in the interior.

18 Q. Where does this company Mittal come from?

19 A. It's a very well-known company that produces iron-ore. They have

20 ironworks and steelworks. They own Cicak and Smederevo ironworks, and

21 they have other branches and properties.

22 Q. You said an Indian person is the owner, and it's a British

23 company?

24 A. As far as I know.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page.

Page 47432

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Gruban, did you have any better, more comfortable premises to

3 place these prisoners or, rather, detainees who were to be questioned?

4 A. To the best of my knowledge, there was no such place in the area

5 of Prijedor municipality that could house so many detainees. In the

6 centre of the public security station, there was one small detention room

7 where a few people could be kept but not even ten people.

8 Q. Can you tell us what we see here?

9 A. This sketch, this plan, shows one floor, one of the upper floors,

10 of the administration building. The -- the one before was the ground

11 floor.

12 Q. What are these rooms that are marked? And what is the area that

13 is unmarked?

14 A. They were used before the war. I indicated here who occupied

15 these rooms. The administrator, the typists. In -- number 9, there were

16 accountants and bookkeepers. And there was a large conference room. B1

17 was the office of the director. B2, secretary. B1, director. B4,

18 lawyer. B5, mining engineers. Then there were toilets and bathrooms.

19 Each one had a shower. B8 was the hallway, et cetera.

20 That was before the relevant events. However, when this all

21 happened, these rooms on the upper floor of the administration building

22 were used by teams of inspectors made up of three men each who questioned

23 the detainees, made a selection, categorisation, et cetera. There was a

24 room, a duty service room, which had a radio station, two typists who

25 typed up the statements made by the detainees on the old-type

Page 47433

1 typewriters, the classical typewriters. There were no computers at the

2 time, and these statements were later returned to be signed, et cetera.

3 Q. I see the ERN number. Who made this sketch, the markings apart

4 from yours made in pencil?

5 A. I received this from the OTP. Everything that we were able to

6 receive in our case, all the documents and records, we received all that

7 thanks to the OTP, because we were unable to get hold of any of it. You

8 know when the SFOR took over the security documentation, we were no

9 longer able to get anything from there without the help of the

10 Prosecution.

11 Q. What is this large unmarked space?

12 A. It's part of the roof shown from the top, from above. Over the

13 refectory.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page.

15 In line 8, it should say that it is the roof above the refectory,

16 above the canteen.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. We saw the canteen in the first sketch; right? What is this?

19 Can you help us.

20 A. This is the ground floor of the work-shop which was often

21 mentioned in court as the hangar. It's used by the OTP.

22 It was a work-shop used before the war to maintain various

23 excavators and construction machines for the purposes of the mine. And

24 when the events began, detainees were held here as well.

25 Q. What do we see down here? A bathroom?

Page 47434

1 A. Yes, a bathroom. That's room A11. There are 24 wash-basins,

2 dozens of urinals, et cetera. And the detainees were kept in this area

3 in the left top corner. You see 23 metres long and 4 and a half metres

4 wide. That's where the prisoners were. And on the ground floor, there's

5 another room which housed prisoners.

6 If you can see A17. That's about the ground floor.

7 And from the ground floor, you have two staircases. It's A8 and

8 another one. Do you see where I'm pointing? A15 and A8, those were

9 stairs that led to the upper floor.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next picture?

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. This is the upper floor of the work-shop?

13 A. Yes, that's the upper floor. So left to those from the stairs.

14 This large room, I didn't get the picture at that time, I got it

15 later from the OTP, but when I was preparing, I drew it this way. This

16 large room marked at as A1, that's where detainees were placed --

17 Q. Excuse me, can you tell us what it used to be before?

18 A. It used to be a big conference room for the people in the

19 work-shop who worked in maintenance, like I did.

20 Q. Thank you. Go on.

21 A. A2, it used to be the office of the administrator. It was

22 emptied. All the furniture was removed, like it was removed from all the

23 other rooms. A3 and A4 were also used to house detainees. And there are

24 two bathrooms. I marked them as 5 and 6.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 47435

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next picture.

2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. What is shown here? What did it used to be? And how was it used

4 during the war?

5 A. So when you get to the upper floor, the first picture we saw

6 showed the area on the left, and this picture shows the area to the right

7 of the stairs. And this is marked, for instance, let's begin with number

8 4. That was the wardrobe, the cloak-room where people changed. However

9 when the detainees arrived --

10 Q. Slow down, please.

11 A. When the detainees came all these cupboards were removed, and

12 detainees were placed in that area. The room I marked with a 6 were

13 showers for the workers who worked on maintenance. That's where they had

14 showers.

15 Q. Please slow down. It was showers for workers. But during the

16 detention time, how was it used?

17 A. The detainees were housed in all these rooms. None of the

18 security men or the guards went into those areas. The guards were

19 standing around the stairs leading to this upper floor. So the detainees

20 were free to use this whole space.

21 Look at room 15. It used to be the car mechanics' electrical

22 work-shop. That area was also emptied and prepared to house detainees.

23 Just as all these other small rooms. All the inventory, all the

24 furniture was removed and made available to the detainees.

25 Q. Tell us a bit about the supply of food. What kind of challenge

Page 47436

1 was it for the municipal authorities? How much food was used by this

2 facility?

3 A. You mean when it held detainees?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Food for the detainees was prepared in a kitchen that is about a

6 kilometre and a half away from this facility, in a building which stands

7 at the very entrance to the Omarska mine. There were difficulties, major

8 difficulties, in preparing food, especially when there were power cuts.

9 And the food there was prepared at the same time for the troops, for the

10 police, and the detainees. A very large number of meals was prepared

11 there. Detainees received one meal per day that contained a plateful of

12 cooked food and a piece of bread. But generally speaking, in the area of

13 Omarska in Krajina, we were cut off from the rest of the world. The

14 corridor was blocked. Krajina was completed encircled. There were great

15 deficits of food and medicines, and if you remember in Banja Luka,

16 12 babies were -- died because medicines could not be supplied to them.

17 Only when Krajina was connected by the corridor with the

18 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the rest of Republika Srpska and

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina did it become possible to deliver food, medicines, and

20 other necessities.

21 Q. The transcript refers to a piece of bread, whereas you said a

22 quarter of a kilo, 250 grams.

23 A. Yes, a quarter of a loaf.

24 Q. Thank you. Go on.

25 A. Plus some of us brought food from our homes and distributed it

Page 47437

1 among the detainees. We did that at our own initiative, and I'm not the

2 only one who did it.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this document.

5 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.

6 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D4413, Your Honours.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Another document is a list of populated areas, but we can

9 dispense with it now because it's not a priority.

10 Thank you. I have nothing further at this time.

11 A. If you allow me, I'm not sure when you were reading the

12 statement, there were some errors. Perhaps it's the interpretation. The

13 interpretation I heard was that I was assigned to be shift leader, where

14 I was actually the duty officer in -- in that room where I worked.

15 And another thing that I heard in interpretation was the chief

16 was Mejakic. Mejakic was not the chief. I'm sorry, I don't know whether

17 it's wrongly recorded or it's just misinterpreted but we all know that

18 Mejakic was not the chief.

19 And there's another mistake that I noted down, namely that

20 detainees were able to eat as they wished. It is not exactly so. They

21 could eat when their turn came.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Gruban [as interpreted] is said to be here -- to be head of one

24 part of the police security. Maybe you received a different

25 interpretation.

Page 47438

1 In any case, thank you for these explanations. And this summary

2 of your statement is not in evidence. What matters is what we read in

3 the official witness statement.

4 Do you have the witness statement before you? Because you will

5 now be cross-examined. Do you have it on paper?

6 A. No.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

8 THE ACCUSED: Excuse me.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 14, it says "Gruban"

11 whereas it should read "Mejakic." Because it is for Mejakic that the

12 short summary states that he was the head of the civilian police part. I

13 said "Mejakic," and the record reads "Gruban."

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

15 Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

16 Q. Mr. Gruban, you were also known as Momo Gruban; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Your nickname is Ckalja; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You were publicly indicted in February 1995 by this Tribunal and

21 you remained a fugitive until your surrender in May 2002; correct?

22 A. The indictment was issued -- I was not a fugitive. I responded

23 to the invitation of the Tribunal as soon as the Law on Co-operation was

24 adopted between the Republika Srpska and the Federal Republic of

25 Yugoslavia. At the time I was in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and

Page 47439

1 as soon as those two legal documents were adopted, I responded to the

2 Tribunal's summons immediately.

3 Q. You were at large between February 1995 and May 2002; correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. In 2000 --

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. It was interpreted you

7 were at large or free, I believe that "at large" means to be a fugitive.

8 We should ask the witness what he thinks and whether he confirms any of

9 the two.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mr. Karadzic, he has answered the question. He

11 said yes.

12 JUDGE KWON: He raised the issue of interpretation. He heard

13 as -- the question as asking whether he was free. Line 17.

14 If you could ask the question again, Ms. Sutherland.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND:

16 Q. Mr. Gruban, you remained at large, or you were free, you didn't

17 surrender yourself to the Tribunal when you were publicly indicted in

18 May -- in February 1995 and you remained a free person until May 19 --

19 2002, I'm sorry, when you surrendered.

20 A. I could not surrender because the authorities of my own state had

21 not adopted the Law on Co-operation. Some people surrendered along

22 private lines. Let me remind you, when I arrived in The Hague, Mr. Kwon

23 was a member of the Chamber as well as the late May and Judge Robinson.

24 I was the first Serb who was provisionally released against the

25 guarantees of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Republika Srpska,

Page 47440

1 and I complied all of the conditions on which I was provisionally

2 released and that resulted in the provisional release of all the other

3 detainees, which means when I was provisionally released, I complied with

4 all the conditions of that decision.

5 Q. Mr. Gruban, that was unresponsive to my question. I asked you

6 nothing about provisional release.

7 JUDGE KWON: Let us continue.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND:

9 Q. In 2006 your case was transferred from the ICTY to the BiH state

10 court where you were tried along with remaining co-accused with

11 Zeljko Mejakic, Dusko Knezevic, and Dusan Fustar; correct?

12 A. Not correct. Zeljaja was not with me. We were not on the same

13 case. I have not heard that before. I was transferred to --

14 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Gruban, I said Zeljko Mejakic.

15 A. Let me tell you the -- the debate on our transfer to the court in

16 Sarajevo was held here. My Defence and myself objected because we

17 thought that we wouldn't have a fair trial in Sarajevo and that our human

18 rights would be violated there.

19 Q. Mr. Gruban, I'm sorry to interrupt you. I simply asked you to

20 confirm that in 2006 your case was transferred from here to the state

21 court and you were tried with the three people I named. Correct?

22 A. Unfortunately, unfortunately, the cases were transferred.

23 Q. And you were tried and convicted in 2008 of crimes committed

24 against non-Serbs in the Omarska camp. You were convicted of crimes

25 against humanity, for crimes committed on your shift and also for crimes

Page 47441

1 committed outside your shift in furtherance of the system of

2 ill-treatment and persecution at the camp; correct?

3 A. Unfortunately, I should have been rewarded for what I did and the

4 way I behaved. However, the court that we have just discussed violated

5 the human rights of the accused. My file is still in Strasbourg. The

6 Constitutional Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina also quashed the judgements

7 due to the retroactive application of the law.

8 Q. Mr. Gruban, you were convicted of crimes against humanity by the

9 state court; correct?

10 A. Unfortunately, you saw how the court acted. The decision was

11 what it was. But this is still not final. I hope that the court in

12 Strasbourg will quash the decision and that it will return the case for

13 retrial.

14 Q. You were specifically convicted of murder; imprisonment, that is,

15 arbitrary and unlawful confinement of camp detainees; torture, which was

16 beatings and other physical assaults; sexual violence, which was rapes

17 and other forms of sexual abuse; persecution; and other inhumane acts,

18 which was the confinement of the detainees in inhumane condition --

19 inhuman conditions, harassment, humiliation, and other psychological

20 abuse. Correct?

21 A. This is what you say. Investigations were carried against me

22 from the moment the first prisoners were released in 1992 until the very

23 end. I have not come across a single statement of a single witness who

24 would have stated that I committed a wrong-doing against any of the

25 detainees.

Page 47442

1 Q. Mr. Gruban, I'm asking you to confirm that those were the crimes

2 that you were convicted of by the Bosnian State Court.

3 Now, as I announced them, that was the finding of your trial

4 chamber, yes? Whether you agree with it or not that was the decision --

5 that was the finding of your chamber. Correct?

6 A. I've just told you that the trial is still ongoing. My appeal

7 has been filed with the court in Strasbourg. That may well be the case

8 at the moment, but I certainly hope that this will not be the final

9 decision on this case.

10 Q. And you were originally sentenced to a term of imprisonment of

11 11 years which was reduced on appeal to seven years; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In paragraph 2 of your statement, you said that the Serbs held a

14 majority in 42 of 72 settlements in Prijedor municipality. The Serbs

15 were not the majority population in the Prijedor municipality. There

16 were more Muslims than Serbs; correct?

17 A. According to the 1999 census, for the first time ever there were

18 more Muslims than Serbs in Prijedor. And of the 71 settlements, Serbs

19 were a majority in 42 settlements or 67 per cent of the overall territory

20 of Prijedor municipality.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It was the 1991

22 census.

23 MS. SUTHERLAND:

24 Q. Nor were the Serbs the majority population in the Prijedor town

25 when you add the ethnicities, the Muslim and the Croat ethnicities,

Page 47443

1 together?

2 A. Serbs accounted for a majority in the town of Prijedor. If you

3 have the 1991 census, and I received it from you, you will see that,

4 according to that census, Serbs had a majority in the town itself.

5 Q. In Prijedor town, there were 13.927 Serbs. And if you combine

6 the Muslim and Croat population, you have a population of 15.145.

7 Do you -- we can bring up the census, but do you take my word for

8 those figures? In Prijedor town, I'm talking about.

9 A. I don't know why you combine Muslims and Croats. Why do you

10 think that they are a whole? What about Yugoslavs and others? What

11 category do you think that they should fall under?

12 Q. Well, if we add them as well, then you come to a total of 20.708.

13 So the Serbs weren't in a majority in Prijedor town; correct?

14 A. Serbs accounted for a majority in comparison with all the other

15 individual categories. I mean Muslims, Croats, Yugoslavs, and -- and

16 others.

17 Q. In paragraph 2, you said that Maricka local commune comprised of

18 some 15 houses inhabited by about 50 residents of other ethnicities, and

19 you mentioned it again in your testimony today.

20 There were, in fact, five Croats and no Muslims living in the

21 village of Maricka, were there?

22 A. Where did you find that? If you have the census, put it on the

23 screen, and you will see that there were 50 non-Serbs, which is the term

24 that you've been using here. 50 non-Serbs who throughout the war lived

25 in the area, they still live there. None of them was killed. They still

Page 47444

1 have their property, their religious buildings, their cemeteries.

2 Nothing has changed.

3 Q. Mr. Gruban, there were five Croats, no Muslims, one Yugoslav, and

4 28 other ethnicities in the village of Maricka. Do you confirm that

5 there were -- do you agree with me when I say there were only five Croats

6 and no Muslims? And that's according to the 1991 census.

7 A. Perhaps we are talking at cross-purposes. The local commune of

8 Maricka consists of three Maricka: Upper, lower, and middle Maricka, and

9 the village of Krivaja. Those four villages constitute the local commune

10 of Maricka, Krivaja, and the villages that go by the same name, Maricka.

11 So that's what I was talking about.

12 Q. Do you agree that in that commune there were only five Croats and

13 no Muslims?

14 A. Why is it a problem? Put the census on the screen. Let's not

15 speculate. I know that there were 50. Why should we speculate? Let's

16 make thing really clear by showing the census.

17 THE ACCUSED: We could offer this document to be uploaded, to be

18 shown, if you want.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: The 65 ter number is 00242S, please.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D --

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, excuse me, Mr. Karadzic. I'm calling

22 up the 1991 census published in Zagreb in 1995 and that's 65 ter number

23 00242S, which is the data for Prijedor municipality.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But in 1995, there was no census.

25 There was one in 1991 and then the next one was organised last year.

Page 47445

1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you can deal with it in your

2 re-examination, if necessary.

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we can go to the second --

4 Q. Mr. Gruban, you can see there down the bottom it starts:

5 "Prijedor municipality." Iliskic [phoen], Babici, et cetera.

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we can go to the second page.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, it is generally known that

8 the census took place in 1991 and then last year. I've never heard of

9 the 1995 census before. Who was it who carried out this census? How --

10 my name is not there. I was not -- not aware of the 1995 census.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Overlapping speakers] ...

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Clearly I said it's the 1991 census which was

13 published in 1995. So this is the 1991 census.

14 If we can turn to the next page, please.

15 Q. Okay. There, down the bottom, the third from the bottom we see

16 Maricka. And that is -- if we go to the very right-hand column we can

17 see that is just numbered number 43 so that when we go to the following

18 page --

19 A. I apologise. Can the letters and figures be zoomed in just a

20 little. They're a bit too small for me to see.

21 Q. Now you see number 43 and you see there's 1.598 Serbs, 5 Croats,

22 no Muslims, 1 Yugoslav, and 28 other people.

23 A. Yes. But what about the other figures? I can't see the top of

24 those columns.

25 Then can you scroll down? I can see that there are Yugoslavs,

Page 47446

1 Serbs ... two Yugoslavs; right? If I'm supposed to be looking at

2 line 43.

3 Q. One Yugoslav and 28 others. Mr. --

4 A. Please --

5 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland, I'm not sure if I'm following this

6 correctly. Can we see the upper part of this page? Do we see two 1991s?

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.

8 JUDGE KWON: But in English translation, we see the years 1948,

9 1953, 1961, 1971, and 1981.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: That's on the previous page, Your Honour. The

11 census is always two pages for every page [sic]. Two pages for every

12 settlement.

13 Q. Mr. Gruban --

14 JUDGE KWON: If you like to pursue this issue, why don't you

15 print out those two pages and offer the printout to the witness.

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, if that can be done.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may be heard, I'm going to

18 read the title in Serbian and I want it to be interpreted.

19 "The population of Croatia which hails from Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina" --

21 JUDGE KWON: We have English translation. I think it's being

22 printed.

23 MS. SUTHERLAND:

24 Q. And, Mr. Gruban, when you get this piece of paper, I'm interested

25 in the figures on the left-hand side of the page.

Page 47447

1 Now I simply want you to confirm that there were in fact only

2 five Croats and no Muslims in the commune of Maricka.

3 A. I'm really confused because the title says: "The population of

4 Croatia which hails from Bosnia-Herzegovina segregated by settlements."

5 Besides, on page 197 I don't have any settlements, I just have figures.

6 So based on the figures, I don't know the exact number of the population.

7 Look at the first page. You see the names of the settled places. Do you

8 have something similar to this? Do you have where it says Maricka,

9 Krivaja, and the figures, and then I would able to actually draw a

10 conclusion about the exact figure and data.

11 You see here, there's no name of the place here.

12 Q. Mr. Gruban, as I showed you initially when it was on the screen,

13 you saw Maricka on the third line up from the bottom. We also saw that

14 it was number 43 over on this right-hand corner -- side of the page. So

15 when you go over the page, you look at number 43 and you see the

16 continuing data for 1991. Total Croats, Muslims, Serbs, Yugoslavs, and

17 other.

18 A. Please. Since you're talking about that, add Krivaja to that

19 because Krivaja is also a part of that local commune. I was talking

20 about the local commune of Maricka, not the settlement of Maricka. This

21 is what you will find in my statement. And then you will do your maths

22 and will you see that the sum should be around 50.

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I would like to tender this and

24 move on, please.

25 JUDGE KWON: Two pages.

Page 47448

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: No. It's the -- the census data for the

2 Prijedor municipality.

3 JUDGE KWON: How many pages? Six pages?

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that we should look at

6 the official census from the official state of Bosnia-Herzegovina, not

7 from Croatia.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND:

9 Q. Mr. Gruban --

10 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I'm confused with the page number.

11 Are you tendering how many pages?

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Six, Your Honour. It may be easier to look at

13 the hard copy that was printed by the usher to see the exhibit.

14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll admit this.

16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll -- we don't need to MFI it. We can

18 admit it.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6684, Your Honours.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND:

21 Q. Mr. Gruban, in paragraph 2 of your statement you say that the

22 Serbs owned 67 per cent of the territory and that the non-Serb minorities

23 in this area enjoyed the protection of the authorities and most still

24 live there.

25 Now you know that this isn't true. The non-Serb minorities did

Page 47449

1 not enjoy the protection of the authorities and most of them do not live

2 there.

3 A. I can speak about the areas where I lived and worked, which is my

4 local commune. All the non-Serbs throughout the war remained living

5 there. Their religious edifices and cemeteries and property were not

6 touched --

7 Q. Mr. Gruban, sorry to interrupt you again, but my time is limited.

8 You are limiting that statement in paragraph 2 to only your

9 village; is that right? Not -- not the -- the entire municipality of

10 Prijedor.

11 A. My local commune and the surrounding communes, for example, the

12 villages such as Gradina, Jelicka, Lamovita, Bistrica, Omarska, Sanicani,

13 Rakelici, Busnovi, Tomasica, were villages in the catchment area of my

14 local commune. I was not aware of a single case of somebody having been

15 killed because they were not a Serb or that their property was destroyed

16 or any such thing that may have happened in that area.

17 Q. You agree with me, don't you, that non-Serb property in parts of

18 the Prijedor municipality, like the Brdo area, the Kozarac area, was

19 destroyed by Serb forces?

20 A. You're talking about the settlements which had Muslim majorities.

21 For example, Kozarac, with its catchment area of some five or six

22 villages, and the area of Brdo. That's where Muslim majorities lived and

23 that's where combat operations took place.

24 Q. When you say "combat operations," you mean when there was the

25 shelling by the VRS forces on those areas, don't you?

Page 47450

1 A. There was fierce fighting there, for example, on 24th of May.

2 That's when fighting started in Kozarac. A military column was attacked.

3 A barricade was erected on the road, and the military got the orders to

4 lift the blockade and a soldier, Zgonjanin, was killed in the village

5 Jakupovici, which actually launched combat operations on both sides.

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could have 65 ter number 05071, please.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript, please.

8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said that a combat

10 operations or fighting started on both sides. That was not recorded.

11 That's on lines 21 through 27.

12 JUDGE KWON: Do you agree, Mr. Gruban? Did you say so?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

14 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Please continue.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND:

16 Q. Mr. Gruban, here we see an operative, an SNB operative's report,

17 Milos, to the authorities, saying that the situation in the municipality

18 of Prijedor is gradually returning to normal. And this is dated the

19 28th of May, 1992.

20 "The fighting in the Kozarac area is coming to an end and most of

21 the places are held by the Army of the Serbian Republic of BiH. Our

22 forces have lost five men and about ten have been wounded. Whereas,

23 according to fairly reliable sources, it is estimated that enemy losses

24 amount to several hundred men."

25 This wasn't fierce fighting between the two sides. This was a

Page 47451

1 shelling attack on a civilian population that resided in Kozarac, wasn't

2 it?

3 A. It's difficult for me to comment on this document. I think I see

4 it for the first time. I don't know who this Milos is and to whom he

5 belonged. I was in the police at the time; I wasn't in the army. So

6 it's difficult for me to discuss these military operations because I'm

7 not qualified. I know that there was fighting, that that there was

8 reporting and media coverage on both TV and the radio, and you could even

9 hear very loud gun-fire.

10 Q. This was in fact the situation, wasn't it? The VRS, as of the

11 28th of May, 1992, had lost approximately five men and that -- of the

12 Muslim population, the enemy losses amounted to several hundred men.

13 That was the situation and -- and everybody knew that, didn't they?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm really speculating now. I

16 don't know whether there were five dead and ten wounded and how many

17 there were on the other side. It would be just speculation. I wasn't

18 there. I don't think I should talk about this. You must have had

19 witnesses who could have spoken about it with more basis.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I just have a clarification.

21 Does this document say that there were losses among the population as

22 stated in line 3?

23 Does the document itself say that the population suffered losses?

24 MR. TIEGER: Can I just rise on because this happens repeatedly.

25 This cannot be a serious question by the accused who can read the

Page 47452

1 document. It is obviously a signal to the witness and he should be

2 reprimanded. It's completely inappropriate.

3 JUDGE KWON: I was checking whether Ms. Sutherland referred to

4 population. Yes ...

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 93.

6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, line 2 and 3.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The document itself does not refer

8 to population.

9 JUDGE KWON: In that regard, he has a point of objection.

10 Shall we continue.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. May I tender this document.

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.

13 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, we don't have any objection.

14 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit it.

15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6685, Your Honours.

16 MS. SUTHERLAND:

17 Q. Mr. Gruban, you said a moment ago that areas where the Muslim

18 population resided and when -- I mentioned Hambarine and Kozarac but

19 let's talk about in Prijedor. The inhabitants of the old town of

20 Prijedor, also known as Stari Grad, were pre-predominantly persons of

21 Muslim ethnicity. Yes?

22 A. Old town Prijedor, I did not find it in the census. I don't know

23 where the old town name comes from. Looking at history, Kozarac is older

24 than Prijedor. Prijedor is first mentioned in 1769 as a town. Old town

25 may be a different settlement. I don't think it's in my statement, and I

Page 47453

1 can't understand why the question on this topic arises, but please go on.

2 I don't want you to think that I'm being pathetic. I just don't know

3 what you're trying to get at.

4 Q. Mr. Gruban, what I'm getting at is that you stated in paragraph 2

5 of your statement that non-Serb minorities in the area enjoyed the

6 protection of the authorities and -- and you said most still live there.

7 I'm putting to you that in fact their -- non-Serb property was damaged --

8 was destroyed by the Serb forces and the Serb authorities.

9 Now you know -- you know the area that I'm talking about that

10 comprises of the Stari Grad settlement, don't you?

11 A. I really don't know which settlement in Prijedor is called

12 old town, Stari Grad. Maybe it has a different name.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could have Exhibit P03532, please.

14 Now this is a map -- and if we could zoom in a bit further,

15 please.

16 Q. We can see just above the river, on the left-hand side of the

17 map, is the area of Stari Grad. It's marked there on the map. Now you

18 know the area that I'm talking about?

19 JUDGE KWON: We can zoom in further.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND:

21 Q. Mr. Gruban?

22 A. Yes, please, what did you want to ask?

23 Q. You know the settlement, the Stari Grad settlement that I'm

24 talking about here, you know was completely destroyed by the -- by the

25 Serb forces.

Page 47454

1 A. What you call Stari Grad I believe is neighbourhood Bereka. At

2 least that's how we call it. A settlement called Bereka, surrounded by

3 little canals, and it's on the right bank of the Sana river. Is that

4 what you refer to as Stari Grad? I know it as Berek in Prijedor.

5 Q. Yes. And you know that it was completely destroyed, don't you?

6 A. I really don't know that it was completely destroyed. Because at

7 the time of the Muslim forces attack on Prijedor, I was not in that area

8 so I could not talk about it. I was at least 20, 25 kilometres away from

9 there.

10 Q. After --

11 A. But I know, I heard when the attack on Prijedor happened --

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. Yes, please. So on the 30th of May, there was a mighty attack by

14 Muslim units on the town of Prijedor from several directions. The old

15 hotel was attacked. That force reached the SUP building and the

16 municipality building.

17 Q. Mr. Gruban --

18 A. The attack began at 4.00 a.m. --

19 Q. -- if I can just interrupt you. My question was directed to this

20 being destroyed and this was destroyed after the attack on Prijedor.

21 A. I just wanted to get to it. Perhaps we didn't understand each

22 other. What I know is this: The attack lasted around -- until around

23 11.00. The Serb army and police --

24 Q. Mr. Gruban --

25 A. -- mounted a counter-attack --

Page 47455

1 Q. -- I don't want the details of the attack on Prijedor. The

2 Trial Chamber has heard evidence of that before. I want you to agree

3 with me that the Stari Grad settlement was destroyed after the attack on

4 Prijedor. You're aware of that, aren't you?

5 A. I don't know that this Stari Grad, or Berek as I know it, was

6 destroyed, but I can tell what you I heard. When these Muslim forces

7 were crushed and began to withdraw, and I know that from the -- their

8 statements and testimony, they pulled out through Stari Grad and from

9 there, allegedly, they put up resistance and the army and police fired at

10 them. And perhaps in the process, some buildings in that area were

11 destroyed.

12 But I'm telling you, that's what I know. I did not see it with

13 my own eyes, and I did not take part. I'm just re-telling what I heard.

14 Q. So if you -- you never passed that settlement ever after -- after

15 the 30th of May to see that was completely destroyed. When you were

16 driving into Prijedor from Maricka, you never, ever, passed the

17 settlement?

18 A. This neighbourhood was not on my way. I come to Prijedor from

19 Maricka, Rakelici, Sanicani, Gomjenica, and that's how I arrive at

20 Prijedor and I come from this side. Whereas this neighbourhood is

21 completely on the other side. And it's so kind of in a recess. It's not

22 along the way so you could accidentally pass by or walk into it.

23 You have you to be going there specifically.

24 Q. I want to move now to the Omarska camp.

25 You said in paragraph 6 and again today that you were duty

Page 47456

1 officer on one of the shifts. The State Court rejected your claim that

2 you had no command position in the Omarska camp and they -- it concluded

3 that you were one of three guard shift commanders in the Omarska camp;

4 correct?

5 A. I was never appointed as a guards commander. There are different

6 options there. Leaders of the guard, commander of the guards --

7 Q. Mr. Gruban -- Mr. Gruban, please, listen to my question. I said

8 the court reject your claim that you had no command position and the

9 court concluded that were one of three guard shift commanders in the

10 Omarska camp; correct?

11 A. At the very beginning, we talked about that court, how it judged,

12 how it worked, and I don't think it's smart to -- for me to comment on

13 the judgement.

14 Q. You may not agree with it, but that's what the court found;

15 correct? I see you nodding.

16 A. Of course, I don't agree with it.

17 Q. But that's what the court found, that you were a shift commander.

18 You were one of the three shift commanders. Yes?

19 A. Even courts make mistakes.

20 Q. Mr. Gruban, did the court conclude that you were a shift

21 commander?

22 A. Unfortunately, that's what the court found. However, as I've

23 said before, it's not over yet, so I don't think I should comment any

24 further. My appeal is before the Strasbourg court. When it's all over,

25 then we can come back to this.

Page 47457

1 Q. You said in paragraph 8 of your statement that none of the

2 members of the reserve police in your shift ill-treated detainees. Now

3 are you asserting to this Court that crimes didn't occur on your shift?

4 A. Yes, that's what I assert, and that's correct. If a case like

5 that happened, one of the duty officers or the guards would have been

6 named as the perpetrators of -- of those violations or crimes. So the

7 entire trial, in all of 100 days of trial, not a single guard from my

8 shift was named as a perpetrator of a criminal act.

9 Q. Your Trial Chamber found that with respect to your individual

10 criminal responsibility in the Omarska camp, that the system of

11 ill-treatment and persecution included the killing of detainees directly

12 and personally committed by persons during your shift and over whom you

13 had control, including the disappearance in July 1992 of

14 Burhanudin Kapetanovic and a person by the surname of Badnjevic. They

15 also found the shooting of at least 50 detainees from the village of

16 Hambarine in late July 1992.

17 I see you smirking. This is the same incident that you refer to

18 in paragraph 38 of your statement in relation to adjudicated fact 1185,

19 where you state that you have no knowledge of it, therefore it can't be

20 true. Is that right?

21 A. Where shall we start? What was your first question? You asked

22 several questions right now.

23 Q. I was putting to you what your trial chamber found in relation to

24 your criminal responsibility and I mentioned two things. The

25 disappearance in July 1992 of Burhanudin Kapetanovic and a person by the

Page 47458

1 surname Badnjevic, and then the shooting of at least 50 detainees from

2 the village of Hambarine in late July 1992. And then I put to you that

3 that was the same incident, the shooting of at least 50 detainees, that

4 you referred to in paragraph 38 of your statement where you say that you

5 have no knowledge of it; therefore, it can't be true.

6 Now, is that the same incident that you're referring to, the

7 shooting of the 50 people -- of at least 50 detainees at the end of July?

8 A. Do you want us to discuss Kapetanovic first and then move on,

9 because you linked two completely different and separate incidents.

10 Q. No, they are two -- two separate incidents, Mr. Gruban. We can

11 talk about the Kapetanovic incident. Let's look at the circumstances

12 surrounding that.

13 The evidence at your trial from a witness to this incident - and

14 that's Enes Kapetanovic - was that three men including these two, that

15 is, the -- Burhanudin Kapetanovic and the person by the surname of

16 Badnjevic, were roll-called before he was. When Enes got out of the

17 room, you passed by and said: "Stop. Have you been roll-called?"

18 Then you hugged him and told him:

19 "Come here. It would be a pity if such a fellow were gone."

20 Enes stated that later on he heard from his friends that you had

21 said that you had saved him from certain death.

22 Now you said that to Enes Kapetanovic, didn't you? You helped

23 him survive. Didn't you?

24 A. People were taken away from Omarska --

25 Q. Mr. Gruban, can you just answer my question, please. You said

Page 47459

1 that to Enes --

2 A. Unfortunately, I cannot answer briefly. If you allow me to

3 describe the circumstances and how this happened, then we will be able

4 to ... will you allow me?

5 Q. If you answer my question first. You said that to

6 Enes Kapetanovic, didn't you: You helped him survive. Yes or no?

7 A. I helped many people survive all these things, not only him.

8 But, please, let me try to explain the whole situation that led to this.

9 Q. Mr. Gruban, the BH Court found that your words and behaviour

10 precisely suggest the uncertainty of the fate of the roll-called

11 detainees, and it led the court to the conclusion that the detainees were

12 supposed to be liquidated.

13 Now, you knew that people were being called out, in particular,

14 on the night shifts, and they were not returning.

15 A. Not true. I didn't know what happened to people who left the

16 centre. There were many roll-calls and people separated, and

17 fortunately, there are many people among those who were taken away and

18 who survived. Unfortunately, there were cases when people were taken

19 away, and, regrettably, they are no longer alive. So we cannot

20 generalise and say that everybody who was called out is dead.

21 Q. So you --

22 A. There were people taken out, transfers to Trnopolje, et cetera.

23 Q. So you were aware of all these roll-calls?

24 A. I couldn't know about all of them. I knew about some and I can

25 talk about those that I was aware of. But if you allow me, I can

Page 47460

1 describe to you the Kapetanovic case as it really happened. And Enes

2 himself testified that I didn't know that those other people had been

3 called out before him, and I did ask him: "Were you called out?" And

4 while I was in the duty officer room, I didn't hear that there would be

5 any roll-calls or people taken away that same night. I asked him if he

6 was hungry. I offered to take him to the kitchen to find some bread.

7 There was no bread. I got him back into his room.

8 In the meantime, I went to the stairs and met the driver of the

9 SUP Prijedor. I heard that two persons had been taken away in the

10 meantime. I didn't ask where they were going. And I told Mejakic that I

11 had put Enes back in his room and Mejakic said, "Never mind." So Enes

12 remained.

13 And there is no example that any guard would make any inquiries

14 as to who is going where. Other made people made decisions as to who is

15 going where. The guards are there to make sure that everybody is treated

16 the same way, to protect everyone, and whenever there are transfers,

17 categorisations, sending people someplace, that's other people's job.

18 Just like your guards here do not ask who is going where, and that's

19 normal. If they did ask such questions --

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 101, line 16. The witness

23 said: People were taken out, transfers to Trnopolje, people released to

24 go home, and that last part is not recorded. We can listen to the tape,

25 if necessary.

Page 47461

1 JUDGE KWON: Do you agree, Mr. Gruban? Did you say so?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can also give examples of

3 people who were released to go home, who left later with inspectors --

4 JUDGE KWON: I simply asked whether you confirmed with

5 Mr. Karadzic.

6 Please continue, Ms. Sutherland.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND:

9 Q. So, in relation to people being called out at night-time, you

10 were happy for this to happen. You were -- you were there, it was your

11 job to provide security for the detainees, was it not?

12 A. Yes, certainly. Every guard was to supposed to look after the

13 security of prisoners. However, if you get a list of persons whom you

14 are asked to let go with someone else, then have you no right to ask

15 questions, who, what, why, you just turn these people over.

16 Q. And who was giving you these lists?

17 A. The lists were usually brought by drivers who came to fetch those

18 people. The list would be typed up and signed, and the people were

19 supposed to be turned over, according to the list.

20 Q. Signed by who?

21 A. The list was signed by the chief of the public security station.

22 Without his approval and consent, nobody could leave the collection and

23 investigation centre.

24 In the early days - and the whole thing was meant to last very --

25 a very short time - it happened that when people were interrogated and

Page 47462

1 inspectors established that these people had not been part of the

2 insurgency, had not committed crimes, people were released immediately.

3 Later it was forbidden to release them.

4 Q. Mr. Gruban, I want you to concentrate on the people that were

5 getting called out and taken away and never to be seen again. You knew

6 that people were being taken away and you continued to allow these things

7 to happen?

8 A. Not correct. Not correct. I didn't know where people were being

9 taken. Many of my friends who were incarcerated were asking me whether I

10 could put them on the list to be called up to go home. I'm telling you,

11 there were people who were transferred and who are still alive. On the

12 other hand, there were people who were called, who were taken away, and,

13 unfortunately, are no longer among us.

14 Q. Okay. Now you heard Enes Kapetanovic give evidence in your trial

15 in Bosnia. And it's true that he stated that later on he heard from a

16 detainee -- he heard from his friends that you had said that you had

17 saved him from a certain death; correct?

18 A. He stated that before the court. I still meet him every now and

19 then. We greet each other. We socialise. If he thought that I had done

20 something wrong or bad, I'm sure that we wouldn't talk today. He is

21 absolutely aware what my role was, what my power was. He knew that I was

22 powerless. It was just a lucky coincidence that I saved him on that day.

23 I didn't know anything about the roll-calls at the time. And that's the

24 long and the short of it.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I note the time.

Page 47463

1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll continue tomorrow morning.

2 Mr. Gruban, I'd like to advise you not to discuss with anybody

3 else about your testimony.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

5 JUDGE KWON: Hearing is adjourned.

6 [The witness stands down]

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.47 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 20th day of

9 February, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.