1 Monday, 22 May 2000

2 [Closed session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [The witness entered court]

11 [Closed Session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10 Pages 19160 – 19193 redacted – (closed session)

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8 Pages 19194 – 19260 redacted – (closed session)

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22 [Open session]

23 [The witness entered court]

24 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym for this

25 witness will be "Witness DD".

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let the witness take the

2 declaration.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

4 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

5 and nothing but the truth. Witness

6 [witness answered through interpreter]

7 WITNESS: WITNESS DD

8 Examined by Mr. Sayers:

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. President, and good afternoon,

10 sir.

11 Let me just tell you that the Court has

12 granted you the protective measures that you had been

13 seeking. Over the television, your face will be

14 subject to facial distortion, your voice will be

15 distorted and for purposes of this case, you will be

16 known as "Witness DD". Do you understand that, sir?

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone is not switched

18 on or we cannot hear the witness.

19 JUDGE MAY: Witness DD, we've got to hear

20 what you say. Could you lean forward and speak into

21 the microphone so we can all hear.

22 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, I propose to lead

23 most of this unless the Prosecution wishes me not to,

24 and for purposes of the personal information, I wonder

25 if we could go into private session for just a couple

1 of minutes.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 MR. SAYERS:

24 Q. All right. Witness DD, I've just been told

25 that before you give your answer, I have to turn my

1 microphone off. So if you would wait until I finish my

2 question then give your answer, it will go more

3 smoothly. Is that all right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is it the fact, sir, that on July the 2nd,

6 1993, Fojnica was attacked by the ABiH, it being a

7 surprise attack with no prior warning?

8 A. It is a fact.

9 Q. I believe, sir, that you were awoken in the

10 early morning hours by the sounds of shooting and

11 explosions in your village.

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 Q. Only three days before this attack, sir, the

14 municipality of Fojnica had been declared to be a peace

15 oasis or so-called "peace oasis" by Lieutenant

16 General Morillon on behalf of UNPROFOR.

17 A. Yes. That is correct too.

18 Q. And on the evening of July the 2nd, 1993,

19 along with your son and several other Croats, you were

20 taken prisoner by the ABiH. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 Q. You had some weapons but they were

23 confiscated by your captors, and none of you attempted

24 to resist capture. Is that the case, sir?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

1 Q. You were then bound with thick ropes by ABiH

2 military police units and taken to a place called

3 Korita, one of the Muslim police officers having hit

4 you in the jaw, and he broke it, and then proceeded to

5 beat you repeatedly. Is that accurate?

6 A. That is correct too.

7 Q. From Korita, you were placed into the back of

8 the truck, still bound, and driven to the Silos

9 detention camp in Kacuni, arriving at that camp badly

10 bruised as a result of being thrown around in the back

11 of the truck during the rough ride there. Is that

12 right, sir?

13 A. That is correct too.

14 Q. You arrived at the Kacuni Silos around

15 6.00 a.m. The next day, July the 3rd, 1993, where you

16 were made to undress, and the guards standing watch

17 over you confiscated and stole your shoes, socks, and

18 valuables?

19 A. That is correct too.

20 Q. You were then placed with other prisoners in

21 cells, about 16 cells altogether, each cell measuring

22 about 10 metres by 5 metres?

23 A. And that is true too.

24 Q. Could you just describe to the Court, sir, in

25 your own words, what the conditions were like in the

1 cells in which you were detained?

2 A. Yes, I shall try. The conditions we lived

3 for two and a half months in were very bad. Hygiene

4 was completely lacking. It was filthy. It was

5 difficult to breathe because the air outside was hot.

6 There was no place to urinate, and we had to

7 do it in a prisoner's boot, a prisoner who was with me

8 there. When that boot was full, there was no place to

9 empty it, nor were we allowed to come out, so that we

10 suffered that urine in our bodies, because we were not

11 allowed to take that boot out. Before that, before we

12 were allowed to urinate in the boot -- I'm sorry I have

13 to say that -- we had to use a hole in the concrete and

14 we had to hide that, because when the BH army policemen

15 entered cells, they would beat us because they could

16 feel this stench, the unpleasant odour. They

17 discovered that. Then they brought a canister, which

18 we, from then on, used to urinate. It was very hard on

19 us.

20 Q. You had to share the cell with your brother

21 and about 12 other prisoners, and because there were no

22 beds or blankets, you had to sleep on the concrete

23 floor at night; is that right?

24 A. Yes. That is correct too.

25 Q. And your son, Zeljko, was put in a separate

1 cell with about six other prisoners?

2 A. And that is correct too.

3 Q. While in this detention camp, sir, you were

4 beaten and kicked every day for a month with ropes,

5 rifles, and boots, there being, at times, as many as

6 15 Muslim soldiers thrashing you, and during this

7 terrible time, three of your ribs were broken from

8 these beatings.

9 A. Yes, that is true too.

10 Q. And you also learned that you were not to

11 scream to say -- no matter how much pain you felt,

12 because you would then be beaten harder if you

13 screamed. Your captors would be standing on your

14 throat to stop you from yelling. Is that accurate?

15 A. And that is true too.

16 Q. Occasionally, some of your fellow prisoners

17 were beaten into unconsciousness?

18 A. That is correct too.

19 Q. And in the cell next to yours, sir, I believe

20 your son was incarcerated, and could you tell the Court

21 whether you could hear his cries from similar kinds of

22 beatings?

23 A. It was horrible. I don't know what to say

24 about the acts like that. When I heard my child

25 screaming, I had to press my ears so that I would not

1 hear it, but I could see and hear everything that was

2 going on in the adjoining cell.

3 My brother tried to calm me down, giving me

4 signs with his hands, trying to tell me to endure all

5 this, and I thought, "Well, what would you have done,

6 my brother, if you knew that your own son was there?"

7 But I did not dare do it, because we did not dare speak

8 out. We would only whisper to each other.

9 Whenever somebody would come at the door, we

10 would have to hop to our feet and look down in front of

11 us and keep our hands behind our backs. For me, it was

12 a dreadful episode.

13 Q. I believe that the maltreatment that you

14 suffered culminated on the 14th of July, sir. Could

15 you tell the Court what happened to you on that day?

16 A. I can say that on that day, they entered our

17 cell for -- on seven occasions in teams. 7, 9, 12 and

18 15 different individuals including policemen and

19 civilians, even women and children, and they beat us

20 until they could beat us no more.

21 Somewhere around 14 July, I don't know the

22 exact date, but that was the period that was the most

23 difficult for me. I did not know whether it was day or

24 night. I even fell unconscious. And if I couldn't get

25 up when I was being beaten, when one of the detainees

1 on the left or right would prop me up, and I would have

2 to stand straight as they would beat me.

3 Some people had to be splashed with water in

4 order to come back to. And that night, a bucket was --

5 of water was brought in. It was blue. We were all

6 bloodied, and we were given this blue water to wash

7 up. It was terrible that night.

8 Later on I learned, after I was released from

9 this camp, that on that day, in the cell where my son

10 was, the detainees in there were beaten on 14

11 occasions.

12 One day in passing, I saw my son and three --

13 with three other men. I could not recognise him. His

14 head was all swollen. He was black and blue. I could

15 only see the pupil of his right eye, this is how he

16 looked.

17 One of the detainees approached me and called

18 me by my name, "I did not believe that you would

19 survive when you saw how your son looked. I thought

20 that your heart would just give," and, indeed, it was

21 very hard for me.

22 Q. During the time of your detention, Witness

23 DD, were you forced to observe any religious beliefs

24 other than your own?

25 A. Yes, at that time in the evening there, a

1 policeman came and they demanded that we pray to

2 Allah. This was not right for me, and it hurt my

3 religious beliefs. We had to do it every night. We

4 prayed to Allah as we were ordered.

5 This was going on for about half an hour

6 every night, and the cell has to resound from these

7 prayers because they wanted to hear the -- the guards

8 outside wanted to hear the Croats pray to Allah.

9 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, with the Court's

10 permission and to save time, could we take paragraphs

11 18 and 19 read with the Prosecution's agreement and

12 just move on to the last paragraph.

13 JUDGE MAY: Some of it you've covered

14 already. We don't need to go into that detail.

15 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Witness DD, I believe that you were released

17 finally from Kacuni on September 13th, 1993, as part of

18 a prisoner exchange.

19 A. That is also correct.

20 Q. And since your release, you've been under the

21 care of physicians suffering from post-traumatic stress

22 disorder; is that right?

23 A. Yes, that is also correct.

24 Q. Could you tell the Court what symptoms you

25 still suffer from as a result of that condition, sir.

1 A. I could say I have great problems with ribs

2 which were fractured. I do not sleep at night. I can

3 sleep up to two hours. I have -- I dream what I went

4 through in that camp. I cannot get rid of it despite

5 the medication and I have been under medical control

6 for the last seven years. I've used different

7 medication and I go to neuropsychiatrists on a regular

8 basis, every month, month and a half.

9 I still cannot get rid of it. It was

10 diagnosed as post-traumatic stress syndrome and I still

11 suffer from it.

12 MR. SAYERS: Just one final question,

13 Mr. President. The witness has brought with him some

14 documents relating to his Red Cross registration, and

15 I'd just like to have those marked for the purposes of

16 the record with the Court's permission.

17 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be marked

18 D222/1.

19 MR. SAYERS: Obviously the document will be

20 under seal.

21 Mr. President, there are translations

22 appended to the back of the Croatian originals.

23 Q. Just one question, Witness DD, if I may. I

24 wonder if the usher could just put one copy of the

25 exhibit in front of you.

1 Could you just confirm that these are

2 documents that you brought with you in connection with

3 your incarceration and release?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 MR. SAYERS: Thank you. No further

6 questions, sir.

7 MR. MIKULICIC: No questions, Your Honour.

8 MR. NICE: Your Honour will understand I

9 don't have any questions in to ask in relation to the

10 captivity, and I'm not in any position to formally

11 admit everything, that I don't have anything to ask,

12 and I may have nothing to ask in any event, but if you

13 can just give me one minute.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:

15 Q. Witness DD, you tell us that you were a

16 member of the civil defence. Before you were

17 incarcerated, if you needed leave of absence for

18 reasons of health, how would that involve the HVO

19 giving you such leave? Can you explain?

20 A. I did not understand this question.

21 Q. To be relieved of your duty as a civil

22 defence person, did you need the leave of the HVO?

23 A. I didn't understand the question. Can you

24 repeat it one more time, please?

25 Q. I'm not going to bother asking again and

1 taking this witness' time.

2 At the exchange of prisoners, do you know

3 for -- do you know where prisoners were coming from who

4 were exchanged with you, from which prison they were

5 coming?

6 A. I do not know exactly what prison they came

7 from. No, I do not know that.

8 Q. Might it have been Kaonik?

9 A. I know that it was not Kaonik.

10 MR. NICE: Yes, thank you. Nothing else,

11 thank you.

12 JUDGE MAY: Witness DD, that concludes your

13 evidence. Thank you for coming to the International

14 Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, I think it might be

19 sensible if you have your next witness here to make a

20 start.

21 MR. SAYERS: Absolutely, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MAY: We'll go on to about quarter

23 past.

24 MR. NICE: Just before Mr. Sayers does that,

25 might I propose something that might be helpful, and

1 that is that we look at the affidavits that might be

2 logged in respect to this witness, the last two

3 witnesses, while matters are fresh in our memory.

4 Because all too easily you move from topic to topic and

5 I've only just received them yesterday, and I haven't

6 had a chance to think about them and, of course, I

7 haven't had chance to make researches into the

8 witnesses.

9 But I can see that the -- if it's only the

10 witness Branko Golub that's involved, you Your Honours

11 will notice, it's unlikely that I've got anything to

12 say in relation to the first page.

13 Then starting on the second page, paragraph

14 seven, again, probably nothing; seven, eight, nine,

15 ten, or eleven, but it's when we go over the page the

16 third page in paragraph twelve, we find in support of

17 really the last two witnesses these five lines. "After

18 the ABiH attack, all but a few hundred Bosnian Croats

19 were expelled from their houses by military force.

20 Many civilians were killed during the attack and over

21 6.000 Croats became refugees and were pushed out of

22 Fojnica and had to go to Kiseljak Vares and other

23 towns." It then deals with the burning of houses.

24 Unless I've missed something in the press of

25 getting through the first witness today, he gave a lot

1 of evidence and had to be asked quite a lot of topics,

2 we haven't had this detail, and insofar as I should

3 join issue with this -- on this topic at all, as you

4 will have seen from the line of questioning I've taken,

5 it's on the basis that a significant measure of the

6 removal of Croats was at the instigation of and under

7 the pressure of Croats themselves.

8 So we have here, as the supporting witness,

9 somebody giving, at least as it reads, the most direct

10 evidence of that particular part of the story, because

11 the first witness today didn't give it in any

12 first-hand detail at all, and the last witness didn't

13 give it at all.

14 So it's likely to be, and I mention it now so

15 you can look at it while it's fresh in your mind, it's

16 likely to be paragraph 12 that I will object to.

17 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

18 MR. NICE: Thank you.

19 JUDGE MAY: Let's go on with the evidence.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the

22 declaration.

23 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

25 truth.

1 WITNESS: Niko Grubesic

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a

4 seat.

5 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Examined by Mr. Sayers:

7 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Would you please tell

8 the Court your name.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. And what is your name?

11 A. My name a Niko Grubesic.

12 Q. Mr. Grubesic, I propose to take you fairly

13 quickly through some matters concerning your personal

14 background of uncontroversial nature. Is it fair to

15 say, sir, that you're a Croat from Bosnia-Herzegovina?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You were born in 1958 in the village of

18 Kondjilo, on the border of Busovaca, Visoko, and

19 Kiseljak municipalities?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. But when you were five, your family moved to

22 the village of Oseliste near Kacuni in Busovaca

23 municipality?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In August of 1992, you moved from Oseliste,

1 you yourself that is, to the Busovaca town centre.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did your parents remain in Oseliste, sir?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You are married and you have two small

6 children.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Where do you live now, sir?

9 A. I live in Busovaca, and my home address is

10 Kula, and no street number.

11 Q. All right. I believe that you attended

12 elementary school in Kacuni, high school in Zagreb in

13 1977, and you graduated from the Zagreb law school in

14 1982?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. On your graduation in 1982, you returned to

17 your hometown, Busovaca, and worked there for five

18 years as a lawyer for the Busovaca municipal

19 administration in the Land Records Office?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. During that time, you fulfilled your one year

22 compulsory military service obligation in the Yugoslav

23 People's Army?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. After that, you established your own law

1 practice in Busovaca for about three years?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, after the first free elections held in

4 Busovaca, sir, could you describe to the Court what

5 your positions within the municipality were?

6 A. After the multi-party elections in Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina in November 1990, in late January 1991, I

8 was appointed as secretary of the Busovaca municipal

9 parliament or assembly.

10 Q. Who was the president of the municipal

11 parliament at that time?

12 A. Based on the election results in November

13 1990, Mr. Zoran Maric was appointed the president of

14 the municipal parliament. He was a member of the HDZ.

15 And Mr. Sunulahpasic, who was the member of the SDA,

16 was appointed to the position of the president of the

17 municipal government.

18 Q. I believe, sir, that from April the 2nd, 1992

19 until May the 9th of 1992, you were a member of the

20 Crisis Staff established in Busovaca. Is that right?

21 A. Yes. The Municipal Assembly appointed a

22 Crisis Staff which was appointed because the Municipal

23 Assembly believed that it may not be able to sit in the

24 future, and so it appointed its own Crisis Staff to run

25 the government.

1 Q. All right. And the Crisis Staff was

2 appointed to run the affairs of the municipal

3 government in time of war in lieu of the municipal

4 parliament which had been disbanded?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And from mid-1992 until the end of the war in

7 March of 1994, I believe you worked as the secretary of

8 the Busovaca municipal Croat Defence Council, or HVO,

9 the temporary municipal administration in Busovaca

10 during the time of the war.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What did you do from the end of the war in

13 1994 until the end of 1995, Mr. Grubesic?

14 A. In the period between March 1994 until about

15 November 1995, I was an official of the Busovaca

16 municipality, dealing with administrative matters, and

17 most of my work consisted in contacting international

18 humanitarian organisations in order -- dealing with the

19 repair of homes and buildings that were damaged during

20 the war.

21 Q. All right, sir. And I believe that you were

22 the mayor of the Busovaca municipality from November

23 1995 until August of 1998.

24 A. Yes. I was the mayor of Busovaca during that

25 period.

1 Q. Then from 1998 to 1999, you held the position

2 of director of the privatisation agency for the Central

3 Bosnia canton, one of the ten cantons of the Federation

4 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

5 A. Yes. This was a newly established agency,

6 and I was tasked with setting it up and making it

7 operational.

8 Q. From August of 1999 until the present, sir,

9 what is it that you've been doing?

10 A. From August 1999, after having successfully

11 set up and started the agency for privatisation in

12 Travnik, I was, so to say, promoted, and I became the

13 deputy director for the agency for privatisation at the

14 Federation level. That means for all ten cantons. And

15 director of the agency is an ethnic Bosniak, Adnan

16 Mujagic, and I am his deputy.

17 Q. All right. Just going back to 1990 and 1991

18 for a moment. I believe that you were a vice-president

19 of the Busovaca branch of the Croat Democratic Union of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the HDZ-BiH.

21 A. Yes. At the convention of the municipal

22 Croat Democratic Union's party in Busovaca held in

23 September 1990, I was elected the vice-president of

24 the -- I was elected the vice-president of the Croat

25 Democratic Union of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Busovaca, and

1 I was there until sometime in spring 1991.

2 Q. All right. Mr. Grubesic, the Court has heard

3 quite a bit of evidence about the elections that were

4 held nationally in November of 1990. Did those

5 elections have any impact upon you?

6 A. Yes. In the first multi-party free elections

7 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, I was elected to represent the

8 municipality of Busovaca in the assembly of the

9 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That was the

10 official name of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time.

11 Q. You were a Member of Parliament in that

12 capacity, I take it.

13 A. Yes. There were two Houses, two Chambers in

14 the parliament. I was a member of one of these

15 Chambers. We either sat in the Chamber of

16 Municipalities, of which I was a member, or at times

17 both Chambers sat together, that is, both the Chamber

18 of Citizens and Chamber of Municipalities, and I would

19 then attend them both.

20 Q. In that capacity, I believe you were the

21 vice-president of the Legislative Committee of the

22 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina parliament.

23 A. Yes. I was the vice-chairman of the

24 legislative board of the parliament of the Socialist

25 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

1 MR. SAYER: All right. I'll skip over the

2 rest of paragraph 10, Your Honours, and just go to

3 paragraph 11.

4 Q. Did you hold any positions in the Croat

5 Republic of Herceg-Bosna after it had been declared in

6 August of 1993, sir?

7 A. All the representatives of the Croat

8 Democratic Union, that is, all the MPs elected to the

9 assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1991 were also MPs in

10 the House of Representatives in the Croatian Community

11 of Herceg-Bosna, and I was in the House of

12 Representatives in the Croatian Community of

13 Herceg-Bosna. I was the vice-chairman of the

14 legislative commission.

15 Q. Now, we heard a lot of evidence about the

16 formation of the political parties in Busovaca itself,

17 and as you've said, at the first convention of the

18 HDZ-BiH in Busovaca, you were elected vice-president of

19 the party. Who was elected president?

20 A. The president of the municipal organisation

21 of the Croat Democratic Union of Bosnia-Herzegovina in

22 Busovaca was Dr. Vjekoslav Barac.

23 Q. Was Mr. Zoran Maric elected to any position

24 within the HDZ-BiH at that time?

25 A. Yes. Mr. Zoran Maric was elected by the

1 convention, that is, in September, 1990, vice-president

2 of the municipal organisation of the HDZ in

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I was also a vice-president of

4 the Croat Democratic Union of the Republic of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina in Busovaca.

6 Q. And Mr. Kordic, Dario Kordic was he elected

7 to any position?

8 A. Mr. Dario Kordic was elected by the

9 convention the secretary of the municipal organisation

10 of the Croat Democratic Union of Bosnia-Hercegovina in

11 Busovaca.

12 Q. All right. Mr. Grubesic, the Court has heard

13 from a witness in this case, a Mr. Cicak, and according

14 to him, a gentleman by the name of Dr. Dragutin Franc

15 was a president of the Busovaca branch HDZ-BiH. Is

16 there any truth in that?

17 A. None. Dr. Dragutin Franc who died in the

18 meantime, was never elected the president of the Croat

19 Democratic Union of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Busovaca, and

20 if Mr. Dragutin Cicak made such a statement, I think

21 that it was done -- a wrong statement. But knowing

22 Mr. Dragutin Cicak, it seems to me that Mr. Dragutin

23 Cicak has certain mental problems.

24 He was a member of our municipal board and we

25 had some problems in the work on the municipal board

1 precisely because of Mr. Cicak, I think he has some

2 psychological problems, that is, he was not quite

3 healthy.

4 Q. Just for the Court's information, we've

5 submitted an affidavit of Dr. Petar Pavlovic in

6 corroboration of that particular observation.

7 Now, sir, in the second half of 1990, could

8 you tell the court whether the political parties in

9 Busovaca, the SDS, SDA, HDZ-BiH were getting along with

10 one another or whether they were not.

11 A. Well, after the conventions of the three

12 parties, that is the Croat Democratic Union of

13 Bosnia-Hercegovina, the Party for Democratic Action in

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Serb Democratic Party of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, talks took place between the

16 representatives, or rather the leaders, of these three

17 parties, at the municipal level, and it was agreed to

18 set up a coalition of the three parties in the

19 elections on the 18th of November, 1990. That is, an

20 agreement was signed and a joint list was formed for

21 the municipality of Busovaca, including representatives

22 of all these three parties and the atmosphere among

23 these three parties was quite harmonious, quite good.

24 Everything was resolved by consent and that

25 was, perhaps, the only example that those three parties

1 at the municipal level formed the coalition or formed

2 the coalition at any level, the pre-election

3 coalition.

4 Q. This is the coalition of the three parties

5 that you've just identified, the SDZ, SDA and HDZ-BiH?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In your experience, sir, were there any such

8 coalitions in any other municipality of which you were

9 aware at this time?

10 A. As far as I am aware, there were 109

11 municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I do not any

12 that there was such pre-election coalitions in any

13 other such municipality such as the one in Busovaca.

14 Q. All right. We've already heard about the

15 electoral results in November of 1990. And those were

16 that the Croats won 30 seats in the municipal

17 parliament, the Muslims won 27 seats, and the Serbs won

18 3 seats.

19 Can you describe for the Court in your own

20 words any celebrations that followed these -- this

21 electoral victory for the coalition?

22 A. I only add something to what you have just

23 said. When it comes to 30 Croats, 27 Muslims and 3

24 Serbs, this was the ethnical division of the assembly

25 of Busovaca, and it included all the six political

1 parties which had won seats in the municipal assembly

2 so there were not only representatives of coalitions.

3 This was the ethnic structure of the municipal hall or

4 the municipal assembly of Busovaca. Excuse me.

5 Q. Were there any post-election celebrations?

6 A. After the results were announced, because the

7 elections took place in some other levels too, not the

8 municipal ones only, there was a major celebration in

9 Busovaca to mark the victory of the three coalition

10 parties that we just mentioned.

11 It was a huge public fete throughout, the big

12 fiesta in the town. Even the traffic was closed in the

13 high street. There were several thousand people who

14 had meet met to mark this electoral victory. This

15 celebration was attended by Croats, Muslims and Serbs.

16 Flags were tied together to symbolize, to epitomise

17 the unity of those three peoples.

18 Q. Could you please explain to the Court how the

19 various offices in the municipal parliament and

20 government, were allocated to the members of this

21 coalition, Mr. Grubesic, following the election?

22 A. Well, I have already said that the chief

23 duties in the municipal government were the municipal

24 mayor, first the municipal mayor and Mr. Zoran Maric

25 was appointed to that, a Croat representative of the

1 Croat Democratic Union of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So he

2 was elected mayor of the municipality.

3 Then Mr. Asim Sunulapasic, a Muslim

4 representative of the Party for Democratic Action and

5 he was the president of the executive board for the

6 municipality for Busovaca, that is the executive branch

7 of the government in the municipality.

8 Q. Who was elected or appointed as chief of

9 police?

10 A. The chief of police after the elections,

11 Mr. Husnija Neslanovic was appointed. He was a Muslim

12 and the representative for the Party of Democratic

13 Action, and in the course of negotiations the Party for

14 Democratic Action insisted on getting that particular

15 office as ranking the third in the municipal hierarchy.

16 Q. All right. And the commander of the

17 Territorial Defence was, I believe, Mr. Husein

18 Hadjimejlic?

19 A. Yes. Mr. Husein Hadjimejlic was appointed to

20 the office of the commander of the Territorial Defence

21 in Busovaca. He is a Muslim by ethnicity and he

22 represents the Party for Democratic Action.

23 Q. Was Mr. Kordic appointed to any position in

24 the municipal government and if so, can you tell the

25 Court what?

1 A. In addition to these offices, the most

2 important ones, which I have mentioned so far, there

3 were also other offices in the municipality which

4 ranked somewhere less. Not to list all these offices,

5 but let me mention one of them which was to which

6 Mr. Dario Kordic was appointed, and that was the office

7 of the secretary of the Secretariat for Defence or

8 rather the Office for Defence in the municipality of

9 Busovaca.

10 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, that might be a

11 logical place to break and, with the Court's

12 permission, tomorrow, I'd like to take the witness

13 fairly swiftly through the next few pages of the

14 outline which consist primarily of political background

15 matters which the Court has heard quite a bit about

16 already.

17 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Mr. Grubesic, we're

18 going to adjourn now until tomorrow morning. During

19 the adjournment, would you remember not to speak to

20 anybody about your evidence, and that includes members

21 of the Defence team.

22 Don't speak to anybody about it until it's

23 over. Would you be back, please, tomorrow morning at

24 half past nine to continue your evidence.

25 We'll adjourn.

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

2 at 4:13 p.m., to be reconvened on

3 Tuesday the 23^rd day of May, 2000, at

4 9.30 a.m.

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25