Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 20276

1 Monday, 5 June 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, as the court knows,

6 Judge Robinson and I are sitting alone today and,

7 indeed, for the rest of this week, probably, since

8 Judge Bennouna is sitting in the Appeal Chamber on a

9 hearing. Yes.

10 MR. NICE: Yes. We understand that as to --

11 is it the first three days, that's covered by the Rule,

12 and as the last two days, by agreement of the parties.

13 But something to that effect, I think.

14 JUDGE MAY: Well, it partly depends how long

15 the hearing in the Appeal Chamber goes on.

16 MR. NICE: Can I raise a few administrative

17 matters before the witness is called.

18 First, last week's last witness, Zoran Maric,

19 was a witness in respect of whom there was considerable

20 pressure to have him finished last week, and we managed

21 to achieve that by the end of Friday afternoon. It was

22 only on the basis that a large part of what I would

23 have asked him about necessarily was abandoned. I'm

24 quite happy about that, but I think probably I ought,

25 where it was so substantial, the amount that was

Page 20277

1 abandoned, to record at least for the record some of

2 the topics I simply wasn't in a position to cover in

3 the time available. And I didn't cover the second half

4 of '92, I didn't deal with the considerable quantity of

5 documents he produced, I wasn't able to cover the

6 numerous affidavits in support, or deal with his

7 account of the start of the war, or what he said about

8 Mr. Hadzimelic.

9 If I turn to this week, we received

10 yesterday, in the afternoon, a couple of summaries, one

11 for the first witness and one, I think, for the second

12 or third. These witnesses are political, and although

13 I'm not objecting to them on the grounds that they are

14 experts, they are very close to being expert in some of

15 their content, and therefore I need considerably more

16 assistance than I do for ordinary fact witnesses. Thus

17 the presence here today -- the Chamber knows what I

18 said last week about accommodation, and if the Chamber

19 has any ability to influence accommodation available to

20 this Chamber, I would be grateful for any help it can

21 give, for, as you'll see, the problem relates not just

22 to this week's witnesses but, I suspect, to the

23 witnesses who are to follow.

24 The current interpretation on the requirement

25 to provide a witness list, so far as the Defence is

Page 20278

1 concerned, is to give only a fortnight, and that means,

2 as I understand it, where there's a week where we're

3 not sitting, like next week, we know nothing more than

4 the witnesses for this week. That is to be contrasted

5 with what the Prosecution provided, which was never

6 less than six weeks and as long as possible, right up

7 to the end of the case.

8 We were served with two expert reports last

9 Monday and three more yesterday. Now, that means that

10 the earliest date upon which experts could be called as

11 to the two would be the week of the 20th, and as to the

12 three, would be the week of the 26th. Calling those

13 witnesses on those weeks would, of course, give us the

14 minimum time to prepare for them, and of course it

15 can't be that those are already planned dates, because

16 no doubt the Defence would have told us about them if

17 they were. However, if it's any -- if there is an

18 intention to call those expert witnesses as soon as

19 that, and I again remind the Chamber that we spread our

20 experts throughout the evidence and gave as much notice

21 as we possibly could, but if there's any intention to

22 call experts on the weeks of the 20th or the 26th, I

23 may be in difficulties if I cannot obtain the necessary

24 assistance in relation to those expert reports in the

25 time available.

Page 20279

1 I'm not here simply to --

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, if we can deal with

4 this. What are you asking?

5 MR. NICE: Well, I'm simply serving notice of

6 two things, really. One, of course I'll do everything

7 I can to ensure I'm properly equipped with expert

8 opinion to cross-examine these witnesses, but I'm not

9 going to cross-examine witnesses without the

10 appropriate expertise, so that it will help if the

11 Defence will tell us when these witnesses are

12 scheduled. I will try and make arrangements

13 accordingly, and those arrangements will, of course,

14 include having, it may be, those witnesses available in

15 court to assist me while the Defence witnesses are

16 giving evidence, particularly where those experts are

17 themselves attacked in strong terms in the Defence

18 expert's report. But generally, and again the Chamber

19 will recall, that my suggestion right at beginning

20 was --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down,

22 please?

23 MR. NICE: [Previous interpretation

24 continues]... conventionally regarded, in some places,

25 as the most helpful.

Page 20280

1 But I must serve notice that it is by no

2 means guaranteed that I will be able, in all cases, to

3 be properly equipped to cross-examine these experts if

4 they are called in the weeks of the 20th or the 26th.

5 JUDGE MAY: The question which we have to ask

6 first is that you require these experts to give

7 evidence --

8 MR. NICE: Certainly, in all cases.

9 JUDGE MAY: -- or to be cross-examined?

10 MR. NICE: Yes.

11 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

12 MR. NICE: And in respect of at least one,

13 there may be preliminary arguments about

14 admissibility.

15 So that's a problem, and I think the answer

16 is for the Defence to give us as much notice as they

17 can as to their witness list and to ask to see what

18 problems there may be. Experts will, of course, once

19 again create problems of accommodation.

20 Those are the only matters that are general.

21 JUDGE MAY: Well, let's deal with this one

22 first.

23 Mr. Sayers, when is it proposed to call these

24 experts?

25 MR. SAYERS: Two experts will be called

Page 20281

1 during the week of the 20th as our third and fourth

2 witness.

3 JUDGE MAY: It will be subject to our

4 agreement, before you make that arrangement. Which two

5 are those?

6 MR. SAYERS: Dr. Schrader will be the fourth

7 witness, and Professor Jankovich, the Zenica shelling

8 expert, will be the third witness that week.

9 JUDGE MAY: What are their topics?

10 MR. SAYERS: Dr. Schrader is a military

11 expert who will provide a variety of insights as to

12 troop dispositions, strategic plans and so forth along

13 the lines of Mr. Elford, but his report is somewhat

14 more detailed. And Professor Jankovich is an artillery

15 ballistics expert who will provide testimony, as I

16 forecast earlier in a very abbreviated fashion, related

17 to the Zenica shelling allegations made by the

18 Prosecution in this case.

19 JUDGE MAY: And the other experts?

20 MR. SAYERS: There are two -- there are three

21 other experts, Your Honour; Dr. Stjepan Mestrovic, who

22 is a sociologist, and we propose to call him during the

23 week of the 26th of June.

24 JUDGE MAY: What relevant evidence does he

25 give?

Page 20282

1 MR. SAYERS: He addresses the evidence

2 offered by Dr. Allcock and others. Then there is a

3 historian by the name of Mark Almond from the Oriel

4 College, Oxford, who addresses historical issues of the

5 type reviewed by Dr. Donia in the Prosecution case.

6 And then our final expert, who we haven't actually

7 lined up to testify yet at any specific point, is Bruce

8 Koenig, who is the audiotape expert.

9 JUDGE MAY: Dr. Almond is the week of the

10 26th?

11 MR. SAYERS: Yes.

12 JUDGE MAY: And the other one is undecided

13 and undated?

14 MR. SAYERS: Correct. He will not testify

15 during the week of the 26th, I can assure the Court of

16 that, or before.

17 JUDGE MAY: And so far you've served

18 Dr. Schrader and Professor Jankovich; is that right?

19 MR. SAYERS: We've served all of them, Your

20 Honour.

21 JUDGE MAY: They haven't come through to us.

22 Very well.

23 MR. SAYERS: And if I could just explain to

24 the Court, in conformity with the plan that we've had

25 throughout the Defence case, we're trying to present

Page 20283

1 discreet areas of testimony with all of the witnesses

2 relating to a particular area, such as, for the last

3 two weeks, the Busovaca witnesses testified.

4 This week we propose to have people who

5 occupy prominent positions on the national level

6 testify, two confidential witnesses, two in open

7 session, and then next week there will be two more

8 witnesses along those lines, the former Minister of

9 Justice, Mr. Buntic, and a minister of reconstruction

10 in the HR HB government, Mr. Robovic.

11 JUDGE MAY: You will stay within relevant

12 lines on these witnesses.

13 MR. SAYERS: Absolutely. We have borne that

14 in mind, and I hope the Trial Chamber will appreciate

15 that working with these witnesses to keep outlines

16 within the relevant lines presents some challenges, and

17 I hope and I think we have done that.

18 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you. Yes.

19 MR. NICE: Your Honour, now that we know the

20 time table, we will make arrangements we can and I will

21 report back as soon as I have results, but with short

22 notice I may not be able to secure the assistance I

23 wish.

24 Can I turn please lastly to today's

25 witness -- are we now in closed session or private

Page 20284

1 session?

2 Can I make the observation in open session

3 then? If necessary, we can go to private session for

4 the usual reasons. We know nothing of the grounds upon

5 which closed session is sought because these matters

6 were dealt with ex parte.


8 MR. NICE: And we would challenge the

9 appropriateness of this witness giving evidence in

10 closed session.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we bear that in mind, we'll

12 call the witness.

13 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

14 before the witness comes in, on behalf of the two

15 accused, Mr. Kordic and Mr. Cerkez, to seek apologies

16 for being without their jackets today. Something

17 happened with the transport and they lost their jackets

18 on the way. That's what I rose to say. I apologise on

19 their behalf.

20 JUDGE MAY: There's no need to apologise for

21 that. If they feel more comfortable without their

22 jackets, they can come without their jackets it's a

23 matter for them.

24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 MR. NICE: I should have said one other thing

Page 20285

1 while the witness is coming in, for reasons that I

2 shan't go into at the moment, I definitely will not be

3 able to conclude my cross-examination of this witness

4 today.

5 JUDGE MAY: I think he's listed for two days

6 anyway.

7 [Closed session]

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Page 20286













13 pages 20286-20428 redacted closed session







20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

21 at 4.10 p.m., to be reconvened on

22 Tuesday, the 6th day of June, 2000, at

23 9.30 a.m.