1 Wednesday, 11 October 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

7 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 WITNESS: GORDANA BADROV [Resumed]

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examined by Mr. Kovacic: [Continued]

11 Q. Good morning, Ms. Badrov.

12 A. Good morning.

13 MR. KOVACIC: I would kindly like to ask the usher to assist with

14 English copies on the ELMO.

15 Q. Yesterday, we stopped at document 1465.4, so we finished that

16 document. So now I would like to ask for the next one, that is, Z1468.1.

17 Let's have a look at that, please.

18 Ms. Badrov, just a sentence or two. We've seen such certificates

19 before. Are these standard certificates that were issued during 1994,

20 1995, 1996, from the command of the 92nd Home Guard Regiment?

21 A. Yes. Yes. That is the kind of certificate that was issued by the

22 Home Guard Regiment for these purposes.

23 Q. Yesterday you mentioned the dates that were stipulated as one's

24 beginning of service with the HVO. Can you please take a look at this

25 certificate. What is the date when this person joined the unit?

1 A. Yes. That is April 1992. It's a standard thing. I explained

2 that yesterday.

3 Q. Actually, in one of those big lists, it was recorded that this

4 person had been wounded on the -- in 1992 in Jajce, actually. We saw

5 that, didn't we? Is that the same person?

6 A. I think so, yes. That person was also born in 1967.

7 Q. Also with regard to this person, we saw in the previous document

8 that this person was wounded on the 19th of September. No, sorry. That

9 until the 19th of September, he was at the line that was described in the

10 previous document, that is to say, Z1465.4, the previous one.

11 A. Yes. It says in the previous document that he -- that he was a

12 member from the 7th of September until the 19th of September, 1993.

13 Q. So the end date is the same one that is mentioned here, right, the

14 date of wounding?

15 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. Thank you. Please let's move on to the next document. That is

17 document Z1463.2. We have seen such certificates before, so let's not go

18 into all of that again.

19 In this document that was issued on the 24th of November, 1994,

20 two persons are mentioned as witnesses of the wounding?

21 A. Yes. Jako Zabac and Bralo Miroslav.

22 Q. Can one conclude on the basis of anything which Bralo Miroslav

23 this is? Because we know there was at least three of them.

24 A. No. One cannot ascertain for either of them which person it is

25 exactly.

1 Q. Thank you. Now -- no, two. Sorry. I would like to go into

2 something else. So let us look at section 26. Ivica Drmic is the name.

3 The first document in that section is Z505, list 505. That is the list we

4 saw dated the 27th of February, 1993. And then the next document in that

5 section is Z1463.3.

6 So again, this is another certificate about the wounding of a

7 certain person by the name of Zvonimir Drmic, and Ivica Drmic is mentioned

8 as a witness here. Ms. Badrov, do you know which Ivica Drmic this is?

9 A. I specifically know a few of them, but I cannot tell by this

10 certificate which one this is.

11 Q. Drmic is a family from Donja Veceriska, judging by the last name.

12 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. I'm going to give you some information about certain persons by

14 the name and surname of Ivica Drmic, so please tell me whether you know

15 these persons, perhaps ...

16 JUDGE MAY: The witness has said she doesn't know. Now, what are

17 you seeking to try and get her to say?

18 MR. KOVACIC: I just wanted to check whether the witness knows

19 some of the persons of the same name, family name and name with Ivica

20 Drmic, since I do have their personal data.

21 JUDGE MAY: Have we heard from that witness or not? We've

22 certainly heard from one Drmic, haven't we?

23 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Not this one. We haven't heard this

24 one, but the Prosecution asked some witnesses about Ivica Drmic, and

25 this -- and these witnesses could not orient themselves because they

1 didn't know who they were asking them about. Some knew some Ivica

2 Drmices, others knew other Ivica Drmices, but they could not tell about

3 which Ivica Drmic they were asking about.

4 JUDGE MAY: Just a minute. We have had one Drmic who you called

5 Witness 216. The simplest way to deal with it, rather than putting words

6 into the witness' mouth, is to ask her what other Ivica Drmices she knew,

7 and that's the fairest way to deal with it, if any. I will ask her.

8 Ms. Badrov, can you help us? Do you know more than one Ivica

9 Drmic?

10 A. I do.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Tell us those that you know then, where they

12 come from, and that sort of thing.

13 A. I know two Ivica Drmices. One specifically is from Donja

14 Veceriska and he still lives there. He was born in 1950-something. I

15 don't know his father's name but I know him personally. The other Ivica

16 Drmic is from the neighbouring village. He is also originally from Donja

17 Veceriska but he lives in a village that is lower than Donja Veceriska at

18 Divjak. He was also born in 1950-something. His father's name is Jozo.

19 I also know him personally.

20 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, now let's move on.

21 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Just one more question in relation to this

23 certificate that we've been looking at here. The certificate was

24 issued -- actually it's a casualty report for Zvonimir Drmic. Do you know

25 that person?

1 A. That name doesn't say a thing to me.

2 Q. Very well. This will conclude my questions related to the

3 binder. I think that we don't need any other examples by way of this, nor

4 can the witness help us more about this.

5 Ms. Badrov, I just have a few more questions for you in relation

6 to this other document that was shown to you. That is Z2332.1. It has

7 been discussed rather extensively here so I don't think we have to go into

8 much detail. Let me remind you visually what this looks like, see?

9 Ms. Badrov, can you explain why these lists were compiled? Can you

10 explain in a sentence or two?

11 A. These lists were compiled on the orders of the persons in charge

12 from the Ministry of Defence; namely, we were given the task -- again when

13 I'm saying "we", I mean persons employed in the offices of defence. We

14 were given the task to compile lists of all participants of the homeland

15 war in terms of the exercise to their right of additional pay. This

16 additional pay would actually be given to the persons concerned through

17 certain immovable goods; namely, we call this selling the national wealth

18 of the state.

19 Q. Ms. Badrov, when these lists were first compiled, what was the

20 policy involved? How were people supposed to prove that they took part in

21 the defence of the country?

22 A. People had to prove this through various certificates from the

23 lowest units, that is to say, from their commanders of squads, battalions,

24 companies, all the way up to brigade level, and also they had to make a

25 statement of their own and to sign these statements.

1 Q. How long did this entire procedure last? When did it begin and

2 when did it end?

3 A. The entire procedure lasted perhaps three years.

4 Q. As time went by, was there any change in terms of how service with

5 the HVO was supposed to be proven?

6 A. Yes, we had a few stages as far as these documents were

7 concerned. In the first stage, we really strictly abided by who were the

8 real participants in the homeland war. However, the competent

9 institutions found out that members of the other ethnic groups, Muslim and

10 Serb, practically recorded all the members of their respective groups so

11 we also extended our lists, and we practically recorded even the names of

12 women who would give a soldier a glass of water in wartime.

13 Q. Ms. Badrov, this list, the compilation of this list in accordance

14 with the procedure that you mentioned, was carried out by which unit?

15 A. Well, this was done by officials from the defence office in the

16 field.

17 Q. Why does the heading mention that these are members of the 92nd

18 Regiment of the home guards from Vitez?

19 A. Well, listen. All the time we've been saying that there were not

20 actual data about the actual involvement of persons either in units or in

21 defence offices. So defence offices asked the offices to compile lists to

22 the best of their knowledge as I mentioned a few minutes ago, that is to

23 say, starting at the lowest units all the way up to higher units, and then

24 the persons involved were supposed to sign these documents and then these

25 lists were sent to defence offices and then defence offices would process

1 this further.

2 Q. What about the 92nd Home Guard Regiment? Was it exclusively the

3 follower of the Vitez Brigade or did it also include in its lists soldiers

4 who came from other units?

5 A. Well, on the ground, in the beginning, we had some smaller groups,

6 units, this kind of unit, that kind of unit. However, as they fell apart,

7 they simply could not find a person who would be a proper legal adherence

8 so then they attached them to the Vitez Brigade. As for these shares, it

9 was the following: The Vitez Brigade was supposed to take over all those

10 people who had spent at least some of their service in the Vitez Brigade,

11 the majority of their service in the Vitez Brigade. Perhaps they were

12 involved in a work duty unit for a given point of time, but they would be

13 registered as if -- they would be recorded as if they had worked in the

14 Vitez Brigade all the time.

15 Q. Let us go into this list once again.

16 A. Could you repeat that?

17 Q. My question would actually be the following. Let us correlate the

18 following. To the best of your recollection, at the end of 1993, for

19 example, what was the number attained by the Vitez Brigade at the end of

20 1993? How many members did it have? What order of magnitude are we

21 talking about?

22 A. Well, it wasn't that number at any rate.

23 Q. Well, could you tell me approximately what the number was?

24 A. Well, it was a long time ago but I don't know whether there were

25 3.000 people or something like that. I don't know. And we registered

1 everyone there to be included in that figure; the quartermasters' corps,

2 people who delivered food, messengers.

3 Q. Does that mean both combat and support personnel?

4 A. Yes, precisely.

5 Q. To the best of your knowledge -- actually, do you remember whether

6 there were any women on this list?

7 A. Yes. Yes. In the list you mean for additional pay?

8 Q. I mean in this list.

9 A. Yes. There are lots of women.

10 Q. Are there nurses here inter alia?

11 A. Yes. Yes. Yes.

12 Q. I think you mentioned that, but I'm not sure it's quite clear.

13 Does this list include, for example, persons who had work duty in the SPS

14 for wartime production?

15 A. Yes. Yes. People who took part in the war in any way. As I told

16 you a few minutes ago, even a woman who would give a soldier a glass of

17 water would be registered on this list. It wasn't a question of

18 institutions or anything like that.

19 Q. Ms. Badrov, one more question in this regard. Perhaps, actually,

20 it would be best if you looked at this document and then told us whether

21 this is correct or not.

22 Before you look at the document, I'm going to put a question to

23 you. Do you know that in Central Bosnia there is an association of the

24 veterans of the homeland war?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

1 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... 7/2.

2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Ms. Badrov, did you have the opportunity of hearing, over the next

4 few months, about their discussion? They want a discussion on acquired

5 rights, rights of persons who contributed in anyway to defence.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you please look at this document and --

8 JUDGE MAY: What is this document? This is a letter sent to you.

9 MR. KOVACIC: But the letter is informing about the discussion

10 which is currently underway for awhile in that veteran organisation.

11 JUDGE MAY: Why don't you call the writer as a witness or get an

12 affidavit from him? Is there any objection to this?

13 MR. NICE: I hadn't seen it in advance. I'm loathe to take

14 objection because they take time, but it seems to me it would have no

15 evidential value.

16 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, after we have received those

17 so-called -- this evidence, so-called Spork files, we, of course, started

18 to investigate. Then among other things, what we found out is that this

19 association is one which is strongly opposing what happened with those

20 certificates, and I asked them whether there is any formal decision.

21 JUDGE MAY: Whether you want to put this letter in or not, how can

22 this witness help with regard to a letter written by somebody else? If

23 you want the witness to give evidence about what she knows, then, of

24 course, she can about what she knows. You can't put a letter from

25 somebody else in front of her and ask her to comment on it.

1 Now, why don't you ask the witness if she knows anything about

2 this matter, and the letter can go in for what it's worth.

3 Could I be reminded of the number, please?

4 THE REGISTRAR: The number was D147/2.

5 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

6 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Regardless of the letter, this discussion that has been going on

8 in public about the distribution of shares, is it still present in Central

9 Bosnia?

10 A. Yes. I think it's still ongoing. Perhaps I can explain the

11 situation, why this happened, although I'm not familiar with this

12 particular letter.

13 The situation was as follows: When we were compiling these lists

14 and when we added all sorts of people to these lists, people who should

15 have been added and people who should not have been added, this was the

16 second stage of the elaboration of the list. The third stage of the

17 elaboration of the list was decreasing the amounts allocated to persons

18 who were on these lists.

19 What was all of this about? We had gone beyond all possible

20 limits with the amounts involved in these lists. We were told that we

21 practically had to halve the amounts involved. So we did not want to drop

22 anybody's name from this list, but we had to go for a linear decrease in

23 the amounts involved to all.

24 So what happened? That a woman who was practically not a

25 participant in the war would get the same amount of certificates, shares,

1 as a soldier who was actively involved in the war from the first to the

2 last day, and that is why there has been major dissatisfaction. That's

3 what I know.

4 Q. So that debate is still going on in public today?

5 A. Yes. Yes, I think so.

6 Q. Thank you. I don't want to look at this document any more. I

7 would like to go back to your introductory statements, what you said in

8 the beginning.

9 Ms. Badrov, you talked about relations between the office of

10 defence and your department in brigade headquarters.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Let me put this very carefully. In the later stages of the war,

13 was the office of defence actually abolished?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. I'm sorry, I think I'm going a bit too fast. And who took over

16 the affairs of the defence office at some point?

17 A. Listen, they tried to attach to the Vitez Brigade, that is,

18 specifically my sector in the brigade; however, we did our best to avoid

19 that.

20 Q. Right. Let us not talk about this too long, but did you manage

21 to do that?

22 A. Yes, we did manage to do that. For a while, those people came to

23 work with us, and we went to work with them, but at long last, we did

24 manage to evade that. We found the right person for the defence office so

25 that ...

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1 Q. Will you please look at this document and explain whether this is

2 one of the documents drawn up in relation to the rejection of this task

3 that you had been given.

4 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be numbered Defence

5 Exhibit D148/2.

6 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Does this document remind you fully of that situation?

8 A. It does.

9 Q. Does it reflect, when you look at the preamble which shows why it

10 was written and when you look at its contents, does it reflect the events

11 adequately, as they happened?

12 A. Yes. That is how it happened precisely. That is, at our

13 persistent requests, and Mario also behaved sensibly and realised the

14 problems that is realised, that the Viteska Brigade command could not

15 really carry out the duties of the Defence office.

16 Q. Thank you very much. I do not have any further questions of this

17 witness. Thank you, Ms. Badrov.

18 MR. SAYERS: No questions for Ms. Badrov, Mr. President.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:

20 Q. Ms. Badrov, I've got a number of different topics to raise with

21 you, but I hope not keep you as long as the two and a half hours you've

22 been given evidence already. Just a few matters of detail to start with.

23 I think that your brother plays basketball, doesn't he?

24 A. He is, yes.

25 Q. You were the only woman in the command of the HVO in April of

1 1993?

2 A. I wouldn't say so. There were several women in the command. In

3 March, yes. In late March, perhaps yes.

4 Q. You were certainly the only one named Badrov.

5 A. Yes. Yes.

6 Q. And you wore a uniform in April of 1993?

7 A. I'm not sure if I really had one in April 1993. Perhaps later

8 on.

9 Q. You told us yesterday about being wrongly identified as a sniper

10 because you, I thought, were the only woman wearing a uniform and so on,

11 but you certainly had a uniform at about that time?

12 A. Sir, yesterday when I mentioned that, I did not indicate, I did

13 not identify the time when it happened, and it could have been as of

14 the -- somewhere midway through the war. But in March, I still worked in

15 the school and the brigade command, and I'm quite positive that I did not

16 have a uniform at that time.

17 MR. NICE: Well, let's maybe instead, Your Honour, go into private

18 session just once and for two topics and then I'm done with it. It will

19 save time. They are slightly disconnected topics.

20 [Private session]

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4 [Open session]

5 MR. NICE:

6 Q. I'm afraid I'm going to be asking you questions slightly out of

7 order in order to get through matters quickly. I shan't be dealing with

8 things in a chronological way that I prefer when time isn't a problem --

9 if time wouldn't be a problem.

10 Just dealing with the topic that we mentioned in closed session

11 but without naming any name at all, the reality in April of 1993 and

12 thereafter is that Muslims on the streets in Vitez were at risk, weren't

13 they?

14 A. Well, depends on the eye of the beholder but, yes, one could say

15 yes.

16 Q. Thank you. Another matter of detail still in April, and perhaps

17 May of 1993. There came a time when the Muslims who had been detained had

18 been released and you knew all about that, didn't you?

19 A. When you ask me if I knew everything about it, I didn't really

20 know everything, but I did see them. I would come across them in the

21 street.

22 Q. But more than that, madam, you were involved in the process of

23 their being released. Think back.

24 A. Yes. Oh, yes, yes.

25 Q. So you knew perfectly well what was going on but just tell us,

1 please, why were they ever originally detained?

2 A. Sir, if you say that I was involved in the process of their

3 release, I should be very happy to explain how I did that merely as an

4 administrative clerk. I compiled the list of those men because the late

5 Borislav Jozic asked me to do that. But I was not involved, not -- nor

6 was I all that familiar with the situation as you seem to claim. So when

7 you ask me why were they detained, I couldn't really answer.

8 Q. Madam, you were eventually, I think, given the rank of lieutenant;

9 is that correct?

10 A. Sir, I have a university diploma and I was a 2nd lieutenant so it

11 was only one rung higher, even though perhaps I think that I deserved

12 more.

13 Q. Very well. These long answers, I'm not going to stop them if you

14 really think they are helpful unless they go too long, but the short

15 answer is: "Yes, I was a lieutenant." The second question. On your own

16 evidence, you were involved in setting up the Viteska Brigade from the

17 very beginning of its existence; correct? Just yes or no.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You listed the hundreds of people who were released from

20 detention, and I'm suggesting to you that to say you don't know why they

21 were detained is wholly untrue. Of course you know why they were

22 detained.

23 A. No, sir, I don't. I'm sorry.

24 Q. It's a complete mystery to this day; is that what you're saying?

25 A. I have to ask you to ask me a specific question. I remember why I

1 was involved in the exchange under the auspices of the International Red

2 Cross committee, merely it was as an administrative clerk to compile the

3 list of those men. But if you say that I signed their release, I don't

4 think you're right there.

5 Q. We've had evidence, it's page 13.801, Mirsad Ahmic, that a woman

6 with the name of Badrov whose brother played basketball and who was

7 wearing a uniform, probably with HVO patches, was preparing the list of

8 people leaving the cinema building. That evidence is accurate, isn't it?

9 A. Yes, sir, because I entered the hall. I was among them, those who

10 were to be released then and I sat together with them and compiled that

11 list.

12 Q. Did you compile the list originally in handwriting or did you sit

13 there at a machine and type it up or what?

14 A. Believe me, it was such a long time ago, I can't really remember.

15 Perhaps I had already a typed out list of men and then added, perhaps,

16 something by hand. But I'm quite sure that at the time when I was

17 compiling that list, I was doing it by hand.

18 Q. Very well. And then that list was subsequently reduced into a

19 typed form.

20 A. I think so.

21 Q. Did you do the typing yourself?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Who did it?

24 A. You're asking me about things which happened seven years ago. I

25 really don't remember if that was done. So if the list was typed, then it

1 must have been done either by the late Boro Jozic or my colleague, Zoran

2 Drmic, using a PC.

3 Q. That brings me to my next question. You told us quite a lot

4 yesterday about computers and I think probably nothing about typewriters,

5 but what were the overall typing and printing facilities available to you;

6 one computer and one typewriter in your Viteska Brigade office?

7 A. Yes. For these services, yes. We were, I think, the only ones,

8 only our department had a computer and nobody else. But there was a

9 typewriter. I believe Mr. Cerkez's secretary had a typewriter, I think.

10 Q. Very well. And so -- and this was all in the Viteska Brigade

11 office, was it?

12 A. Its offices, yes, on the premises, yes, because they were several

13 separate office rooms.

14 Q. Now, I want you, please, just to look at a document and to look at

15 this page of it, please.

16 MR. NICE: Just lay it on the ELMO, please, so the witness can see

17 it. We'll all look at it together.

18 Q. Now, let's just look at this document. First of all, let's look

19 at the top of it if we could be so -- thank you very much. Now, you can

20 see the chequerboard and the description of the Viteska Brigade, and then

21 we'll look a little bit further down and pass our eyes over the names and

22 so on. Do you recognise this as the list that was typed up?

23 A. This is a list. What it was typed on, I can't say.

24 Q. Well, let's look at the top again, if the usher would be so good.

25 The chequerboard sign and the title of the Viteska Brigade, can you help

1 us with how that came to be put on documents, for example, documents such

2 as this, in your experience?

3 A. Oh, dear, yes. This -- this letterhead we also had in our

4 computer. But I also think we had blank papers printed with only this

5 letterhead, and then we used them when the need arose.

6 Q. Right. So there would be documents with this entire letterhead,

7 down to and including the "Viteska Brigade", either on the computer or

8 available for the typewriter. Is that fair?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, if we look at this, just to see if I can remind you about it,

11 if we look at the heading and we look at the second line of the heading,

12 for example -- it's not entirely clear but it will do -- and we look at

13 the words "Herceg-Bosna", which are in capital letters, and we focus on

14 the capital "C" for "Herceg", we see it's a full-height letter, the same

15 height as the "R" to its left and the "E" to its right. If we then go

16 down to the next line, "Vijece", the second word, we see that the "C"

17 there is a "C" with a diacritical character over it, and that to

18 accommodate that character the "C" is now shorter in height than the

19 adjoining "E".

20 Can we now go to the bottom of the page, please. If we look at

21 numbers 244 and 245, the capital "S" in the middle word "Sahiba", is a

22 full-height letter, even in height to the "K", but on this machine,

23 whatever machine it was, we see that the "S" with the diacritic over it,

24 "Trako Capcira Ismet," is -- the "S" is shortened in height order to

25 accommodate the diacritic over it. Do you accept that?

1 A. You are basically asking me if the letter with the character, with

2 the diacritic mark, is smaller than the same character without the

3 diacritic mark.

4 Q. Correct. I'm asking you whether you recognise that as the

5 typewriter or computer in our office.

6 A. I don't know where this was typed, and least of all whether this

7 was done in my office. I allow the possibility, but I cannot really say

8 yes or no. If somebody asked us to do it, then we did it for them.

9 Q. Very well. But if we go to the top of this document just once

10 more -- in fact, I think we'll go to the front page of it, please.

11 MR. NICE: Go back to the front page of the original, Mr. Usher,

12 so we can remind ourselves what it is.

13 Q. This document, the heading is the heading which you're familiar

14 with, including "Viteska Brigade", and there is nothing in this document

15 to suggest other than it was typed in the Viteska Brigade offices,

16 correct?

17 A. Yes, but I do not think that there is anything in it to affirm a

18 certainty that that's where it was typed.

19 Q. I'd like you to look at the next document, please. Now, this

20 document, let's look at the heading again. If we focus on just the first

21 two lines, that is "Herceg-Bosna", and the second line "vijece obrane",

22 we see again the characteristic full height "C", the lesser height "C"

23 with a diacritic. The "Viteska Brigade", apart from an entirely vestigial

24 characteristic under the "J" has been omitted.

25 Madam, it would be very surprising, wouldn't it, for that general

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1 heading to be corrupted by the deletion of "Viteska Brigade", wouldn't

2 it?

3 A. I don't even see why you asked me that. I'm really not qualified

4 to answer questions like that. Secondly, whether it -- I do not think one

5 should erase anything. Of course I do not think it would be right. I do

6 not think it is right to delete -- to strike out anything, including the

7 words "Viteska Brigade." But if it was struck out, then I suppose one can

8 see it in the document, can't you.

9 Q. I'm sorry to ask you these questions, Ms. Badrov, but it was you

10 who yesterday came and started telling us about office procedures and

11 equipment. Therefore, I took the opportunity to deal with something which

12 you would have apparently have been knowledgeable. You have told us this

13 morning that this heading, including the word "Viteska Brigade", was

14 available on standard documents either in the computer or on the

15 typewriter, correct?

16 A. I do agree with that, sir, but I must also say that I said that I

17 wasn't really computer trained and that Zoran Drmic, my colleague, did all

18 the work with the computer so I never did have an opportunity to compare

19 the size of individual characters.

20 Q. In any event, you can't explain why in the copying of that second

21 document you were looking at, for we only have a copy from the Defence, in

22 the copying of that document, you can't explain why "Viteska Brigade"

23 would have been deleted from a standard heading?

24 A. If it was erased, I cannot explain why. But it is a question

25 really whether it was indeed deleted or whether somebody else used that

1 same letterhead.

2 Q. That's all I need to ask about those exhibits.

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, before we move on, we do not have for the

4 record the number of the second document.

5 MR. NICE: I'm sorry. It's on the document. It's D28/2.

6 Q. Before we move from this document, there's something else. You

7 were listing the people released, and you were a member of the Viteska

8 Brigade; correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Their detention had been by the Viteska Brigade, using other

11 units, of course. Their detention had been by the Viteska Brigade,

12 correct?

13 A. Whether they were detained by the Vitez Brigade, I don't really

14 know who brought those men in, but at the time of their arrest, I was at

15 home, blocked, and couldn't go out. So when I came to work -- the first

16 time I came to work after that I only saw those men, and that's all that I

17 can tell you about it.

18 Q. Certainly it was the Viteska Brigade who was supervising their

19 release and who was in a position to organise their release. That's why

20 you were there.

21 A. I don't understand. Was there a question or --

22 Q. Yes, madam, there was a question. It was the Vitez Brigade who

23 was supervising the release, I must suggest to you, because it was the

24 Vitez Brigade who were in a position to organise their release.

25 A. You probably have a reason for believing that, but I think that

1 you're not right, and I think that the Vitez Brigade command was not,

2 organisationally speaking, established enough to do things the way you

3 describe them.

4 Q. That's really your answer madam. Please tell us who, if not the

5 Viteska Brigade, made the decision to release these detained men in their

6 hundreds and organised it. Who did it? You were filling in the form.

7 Who was in charge of that?

8 A. Do you really think that any person who is involved in the

9 physical execution of a task is in a position to know who is the

10 decision-maker --

11 JUDGE MAY: No. You're being asked. It's not a matter for

12 argument. It's a matter of whether you knew who organised the release or

13 not.

14 A. No. No, I do not know.

15 JUDGE MAY: You have no ideas who might have organised it?

16 A. All I know is that the late Borislav Jozic was the representative

17 of the HVO for exchanges and negotiations. Now, who reached the decision,

18 that I don't know.

19 MR. NICE:

20 Q. One matter of detail. The secretary of Cerkez, was her name

21 Ankica?

22 A. There were several secretaries, but it is possible that one of

23 them was Ankica too, yes.

24 Q. Madam, I want to deal rather generally with a couple of

25 questions. I want your assistance, please. In the course of giving your

1 evidence yesterday, on more than one occasion you'd been asked a short

2 question and you've given a very long answer about the creation of the

3 brigade and particularly about the military police. No complaints, but

4 the fact that you were asked a short question and you give a long answer

5 saying the military police were part of the brigade shows that you know

6 not only what answers you're giving but you know the purpose of your

7 evidence. At the end of your evidence you've given a lot of answers about

8 documents in the two big binders. My mistake for not understanding what

9 it's all about.

10 Can you just tell me, please, what have you been telling us about

11 these documents and about the people in them? If you were to summarise

12 your evidence, what have you been trying to help us with? What have you

13 been trying to show?

14 A. If my understanding is correct, the Defence was trying, on the

15 basis of my evidence, to produce a conclusion which is as follows: that in

16 the period when the conflict broke out, the Vitez Brigade had not been

17 established.

18 When we talk about lists of men, in some of these lists it is very

19 hard to ascertain just on the basis of first and last names what

20 particular individual this was. If we don't have their full data, it is

21 very hard to say who this person was. My evidence yesterday was supposed

22 to show that.

23 Q. Thank you. Well, of course the lists which are of only tangential

24 interest to the Prosecution, if they are just lists of names, always have

25 that characteristic. If you only have a name and a surname, it might be

1 one of more than one people. You accept that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. One other thing. Were you helping us yesterday with the documents

4 because you are able to recognise various peoples' signatures and

5 handwritings and things like that? I think you told us about Cerkez's

6 signature from time to time.

7 A. Well, yes.

8 Q. And you are able to recognise his signature.

9 A. I believe that I can, yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Let's go back in time and I want you to look at a few

11 documents but I hope quite quickly.

12 MR. NICE: Can the witness see 473.1, please.

13 Q. You told us yesterday about the limited resources available to the

14 new Vitez Viteska Brigade and how it didn't have any barracks. Can you

15 just look, please, at this document. Just look at this document, please.

16 This is dated the 14th of February so it's before the time you

17 were formally involved which you've been asked questions outside that

18 period. It's before the formal formation of the Viteska Brigade, I

19 think. And it's an order from Skopljak and it says, "Withdraw all units

20 of the Vitez municipality HVO and the ABH from lines of contact. Return

21 all units from other municipalities to the territories of their home

22 municipalities immediately. The deadline for withdrawal of units is

23 1200." And then at item two, "Immediately and at the latest by 1400

24 hours, withdraw all the units together with artillery pieces from lines of

25 contact into barracks or buildings intended for that purpose."

1 Can you explain that to us, please? There seem to be barracks or

2 buildings intended for that purpose as early as February of 1993.

3 A. I really cannot explain why Mr. Marijan Skopljak issued such a

4 document. It is very strange to me that he would be issuing a commanding

5 order to the ABiH. Now, I don't know to whom he is ordering to return to

6 the barracks. I really do not know of any barracks at that time and even

7 later. I really don't.

8 Q. This is one of those passages yesterday where you weren't asked a

9 question about something but where you volunteered that at this time it

10 wasn't an army and it didn't have barracks. You just gave that answer,

11 having told us that the previous brigade, the Tomasevic Brigade in Vitez

12 had disintegrated. That was your use of the terms. Now, thinking back,

13 let's deal with it in stages. "Disintegrated" is the wrong term for what

14 happened to the Tomasevic Brigade, isn't it? The correct word, at most,

15 is "disbanded".

16 A. I am not sure what the word I used yesterday. First of all, the

17 Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade did not have the command post in Vitez from what

18 I know. And when I talk about the period before I was in the Viteska

19 Brigade command, you please allow that these -- this is second-hand

20 knowledge. So yes, there was a dissolution of the Stjepan Tomasevic

21 Brigade or the reorganisation or reestablishment, call it whatever you

22 want, but the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade was composed of members from Vitez

23 and Novi Travnik, and I think that they just -- that it -- it was

24 dissolved in early 1993.

25 Q. Will you accept, Ms. Badrov, that in reality, there was a military

1 presence for Vitez that continued seemlessly from Tomasevic into the

2 Viteska Brigade and that lasted from 1992 until the end of the war, the

3 end of 1993, 1994. The name changed but, in reality, most of the

4 personnel and the structures remained the same. Do you accept that?

5 A. I do accept that there was an established formation in early 1993

6 when I joined in, and I believe that you are not right there.

7 Q. Very well.

8 A. There was. Very well.

9 Q. And further, that Mr. Cerkez had an important role in all the

10 different incarnations, in all the different formulations of the armed

11 units for Vitez. Would you accept that?

12 A. From what I know, Mr. Cerkez was in the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade,

13 but I really cannot guarantee that I know what specific position he held.

14 Later on, he was the commander of the Vitez Brigade and that was a

15 significant role.

16 Q. Right. If you'd look at this next document, please, 1199.4. The

17 document is a little out of order, but the matters to which it relates are

18 in the period I'm focussing on.

19 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, for document-tracking purposes, are

20 these new exhibits or previously-introduced exhibits just so that we can

21 avoid --

22 MR. NICE: Certainly these are new exhibits but these are not --

23 new exhibits but not Zagreb. No, I beg your pardon, this is a Zagreb

24 document.

25 Q. Ms. Badrov, we can see, can we, your signature on the original?

1 A. No.

2 Q. So whatever your present state of knowledge, you acquired the

3 information that you set out on this letter, and if we read it in the

4 translation, perhaps you would be good enough to follow it in the

5 original. It is dated the 12th of September from the command of the Vitez

6 Brigade. It goes to the command of the independent battalion in Vitez.

7 "Supply of requested data. Pursuant to the numbered order of the 10th of

8 September, herewith the requested data concerning the commander of the

9 Vitez Brigade, Mario Cerkez. And it says he was the son of Tugomir born

10 on the 27th of March 1959 and was one of the founders of the HVO on our

11 territory." Just pausing there, were you aware of that?

12 A. Excuse me, was I aware of what?

13 Q. That he was one of the founders of the HVO? Were you aware that

14 he was one of the founders of the HVO?

15 A. Well, probably somebody had told me that at the time when I was

16 writing this.

17 Q. "Beginning with the accumulation of arms," were you aware of

18 that?

19 A. I'm trying to find that sentence.

20 Q. "Beginning with the accumulation of arms."

21 A. Yes. It does say so.

22 Q. And then it goes on, "Through their distribution to the

23 organisation of HVO units. His first duty in the HVO was that of

24 assistant commander of the Vitez staff, followed by commander of the Vitez

25 Brigade. After this the Vitez and Novi Travnik Brigades were united under

1 the name of Stjepan Tomasevic where he held the position of assistant

2 commander of that brigade."

3 Now, that's correct, isn't it? There was a Vitez unit of which he

4 was the assistant commander and commander before the Stjepan Tomasevic

5 Brigade assumed responsibility for both Vitez and Novi Travnik.

6 A. You are right when you say that this is what is written here, but

7 let me offer you reasons. As a head for the establishment and personnel,

8 it was my duty to provide this information to the Operative Zone. In

9 order to be able to provide certain data, I would have to have acquired

10 certain knowledge. Where I got the data for Mario Cerkez, I really cannot

11 recall at this point, and you will allow that I may not remember it all.

12 Q. I'm going to stop you for a minute. I mean one of the

13 possibilities, I suppose, is that Mr. Mario Cerkez dictated the letter to

14 you and you signed it. Is that what happened?

15 A. I do not think that he really dictated it to me.

16 Q. Well, then you must have got the information from a reliable

17 source. Remember yesterday, you were introduced to us as a real Vitezit

18 or Viteza, somebody who has been in Vitez all your life since seven or

19 nine years old. It's a small town. You were in the HVO. You know the

20 truth. This is an accurate description, wherever you got the material, of

21 what Cerkez's responsibilities had been over 1992 and 1993; correct?

22 A. Yes, I am a native of Vitez. I know a number of things. What I

23 know, I say that I know. What I'm not sure of, I say that I'm not sure

24 of. But whether I can guarantee that this really is so, no, I cannot

25 guarantee that. It all depends, that is, this was written on 12 September

1 1993. That is in the middle of the fiercest fighting.

2 We got information by literally running after people pulling them

3 by their sleeves and trying to extract information from them. I really

4 don't know how this information on Mario Cerkez came to be, whether he was

5 the source, somebody else. But in general, this was the way how I got

6 information that I finally gathered.

7 Q. Madam, incidentally, while we're just dealing with what you say

8 about the rush of preparing the information, two things: Are you telling

9 us or telling the Judges that any part of this letter is inaccurate and,

10 if so, which bit?

11 A. No. I'm not saying that parts or bits of it are incorrect,

12 neither correct or incorrect. What I'm saying is only that at some point,

13 I got this information and I took it down. And if I wrote down the

14 commander of the Vitez Brigade, I am not the commander of the Vitez

15 Brigade, and I cannot see that I wrote it on behalf of or for the

16 commander of the Vitez Brigade. It was something that was written and

17 then just left to my hand. In fact, I did not even sign -- I did not even

18 sign properly.

19 Q. We'll come to that and signatures in a minute. But just focussing

20 on the military formation that pre-existed, the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade,

21 did you know that by the name of the headquarters of the HVO municipal

22 staff? Is that its title or its other title?

23 A. You're asking me things that I do not know.

24 Q. Very well.

25 A. I really do not know this.

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1 Q. If we look at the next and the last paragraph I need focus on,

2 shortly after that, this brigade was disbanded and the current Vitez

3 Brigade was formed and Mr. Mario Cerkez was appointed as its commander.

4 Then we look at the signature.

5 MR. NICE: And for these purposes and for one other purpose, it

6 may be helpful if the Chamber looks at the original.

7 Q. You signed this on behalf of Mario Cerkez, didn't you?

8 A. I signed this as "Commander Mario Cerkez."

9 Q. Yes. He was in the office. I think we've got to have another

10 order of his on the 12th of September. Are you sure he didn't dictate

11 this to you? May he have done?

12 A. Believe me, after seven years, I'm not sure of anything,

13 especially things like this, which I did quite often. I cannot recall

14 that situation.

15 Q. Looking at the original, because you've got the original in front

16 of you, I'd like you to look at it. Can you help us with whether this was

17 the typewriter or the computer? It doesn't have the chequerboard. For

18 what it's worth, we can see the capital "Cs" are now the same height as

19 the capital "Ss", whether or not they have diacritics over them. So

20 they're a different machine from the machine we were looking at for the

21 two lists, but if you can look at it so we can follow it through if it

22 ever becomes necessary, whether this was a typewriter or a computer?

23 A. I don't recall. I can only make some educated guesses.

24 Q. Thank you. Let's move on in time. You looked, yesterday, I

25 think, briefly at 505, and again I want you to just have a quick look at

1 it for the most basic -- just for identification purposes and just to ask

2 you really one question about it. It's a complicated document because

3 it's quite large.

4 MR. NICE: If we put it on the ELMO, the Chamber will be reminded

5 of what it is and the witness can have the first page of the original.

6 May I just have the date so that I can recall the date? It's the

7 27th of February, 1993, and it's Exhibit 505. Thank you very much. 505.

8 Q. This document, madam, which lists the HVO members of Novi Travnik

9 first section union of the battalion, was this a document available to you

10 at the time when you were setting up the Viteska Brigade?

11 A. I think that I had a document similar to this, that is, a payroll

12 for a shift or something like that.

13 Q. Because -- and this is the simple point I want to make, and in

14 light of your answer I need detain you no further with the document beyond

15 this question: Having this document to hand, and we can look at

16 subsequent pages but the Chamber will remember it, having this document at

17 hand meant you had a list of names, addresses, and necessary identifying

18 features of the people in Vitez who were going to make up the Viteska

19 Brigade, didn't you?

20 A. I wouldn't put it that way. This is a list of men who, at a

21 certain point, were parts of particular shifts which were sent to the

22 slope of Mount Vlasic. This is how I would put it. At that particular

23 point, they perhaps helped me with their data, their addresses, and so on,

24 yes.

25 Q. This is a list that contains hundreds of names, isn't it? Flip

1 through it.

2 A. I don't know. I would have to review the entire document.

3 Q. And it's headed and broken down -- it's headed by reference to the

4 battalion, Novi Travnik, sections of the battalion, and so on. Are you

5 really saying it's just a list of people going to the front line or is it

6 a list of soldiers?

7 A. I think this is the list of men who went to the front line.

8 Q. In any event, if it's hundreds of names, you would accept that you

9 had hundreds of names with various details at the time that you were

10 setting up the Viteska Brigade. Thank you.

11 A. This document, yes, could have served as the basis for the

12 production.

13 Q. Just give me one minute to see if I can eliminate some documents.

14 [Prosecution counsel confer]

15 MR. NICE:

16 Q. Perhaps before the break, and I may be able to save a number of

17 documents that I was otherwise going to look at, perhaps you'd like,

18 please, to look again, if you haven't already, at this document, 653.

19 We're familiar with this document. We've seen it very many times. It was

20 prepared for the 14th of April or on the 14th of April. What do you say

21 this is a listing of, madam?

22 A. This is a listing of men compiled by the SIS official of the

23 1st Battalion, and the 1st Battalion is the one that issued out of the

24 Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade after its disintegration, and it is possible

25 that this is an approximate number of men who went on shifts with this

1 1st Battalion, just an overview of how many men from villages went to the

2 front line, something like that.

3 MR. NICE: Your Honour, would that be a convenient moment?

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll adjourn for half an hour.

5 If the legal officer would come out, I'd be grateful.

6 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

9 MR. NICE:

10 Q. Ms. Badrov, if we could just look at the top of this document, if

11 the usher would be so good. Thank you very much. This is a document,

12 madam, that is dated the 14th of April, is headed the Viteska Brigade and

13 refers to the personnel from the 1st Battalion and then gives their

14 company commanders by name, 1st Company, 2nd Company, and so on.

15 You told us yesterday that there was not an army, that it wasn't

16 formed. That there was no brigade. That's simply not true, is it? It

17 was formed by the middle of April. It wasn't at full strength but it was

18 formed as this document makes quite clear.

19 A. Sir, you are entitled to your opinion. I claim the opposite, that

20 the brigade was not established. At that time, to put it simply, the

21 brigade had not been established.

22 Q. Well, you've been brought here, you see, to tell us of the details

23 of its creation and you were in at the beginning. Why is anybody using

24 the words 1st Company, 2nd Company. Please explain that so we can

25 follow?

1 A. Could you clarify what you want me to explain to you? Within a

2 battalion, there are companies. That is the lower entity of

3 establishment. And what do you want to know specifically about that?

4 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps we could ask you this to help us. Why, if the

5 battalion was not established, is there a reference to a battalion, and

6 then a company, complete with a commander, and then a list from various

7 villages of people who are called "soldiers"? Now, it appears from this

8 document that this is a functioning brigade or battalion. What would help

9 us is to know why, if the battalion wasn't established, why is it all set

10 out in this way?

11 A. I can only assume that this, perhaps, is a survey of the number of

12 personnel who were, perhaps, established in this way or rather took part

13 in shifts in this way and had originally belonged to the Stjepan Tomasevic

14 Brigade. It is possible that this is the number of people who belonged to

15 that brigade from Vitez. This is a survey according to villages, that is

16 to say, their villages of origin.

17 The fact that types of weapons in their possession are listed here

18 as well remains, but I claim that I was the one who was establishing the

19 brigade and that I did not establish it in this way. At that moment, I

20 did not have these men at my disposal.

21 MR. NICE:

22 Q. In light of your answer, Ms. Badrov, tell me this: Until you came

23 to The Hague on this visit, had you ever seen that document before?

24 A. This document? I think I saw it when I was here the last time.

25 Q. All right. But apart from that possible sighting of the document,

1 you have no knowledge of the document; is that what you're telling us?

2 A. I cannot claim either one or the other. It is possible, as I

3 already told you, that when I came to the command, I found some

4 information about part of -- or rather about lists --

5 Q. I'm going to cut you off. Whether you may have seen possibly the

6 document before is perhaps not the question. You certainly have no

7 present memory of seeing this document before, as I understand it.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In which case, perhaps you would be good enough to explain to us

10 how it is just from looking at the document that you make the assumption

11 that it is, perhaps, a survey of the number of personnel who took part in

12 shifts. Let's look at the document. Tell us, please, what it is about

13 the document that enables you to make that assumption? Find me the word

14 that points to that conclusion.

15 A. I draw such a conclusion for a simple reason. I had already seen

16 the lists of shifts for the line in Novi Travnik, that is to say, Slatka

17 Vode. The number of persons could be the same. I'm just linking two

18 situations together and drawing conclusions on that basis whereas the

19 personnel of the 1st Battalion --

20 Q. When did you see this list of the -- let's just see what you've

21 said, the list of the shifts for the line in Novi Travnik, is this seven

22 years ago, Ms. Badrov?

23 A. I think so, yes.

24 Q. Just so that we can understand your process of thinking, you're

25 shown a list of which you have no memory. You think back seven years to a

1 detail. Tell me, how many people was it going on the shift on the

2 memory -- on your memory of this document of seven years ago, just how

3 many?

4 A. No. No. I can't tell you how many persons, but if you want me to

5 say specifically why I remember this list, I mean I remembered that list

6 for a simple reason. On this list, I found my brother who happened to be

7 at the Slatka Vode line on the 16th of April, 1993. And simply when his

8 name was mentioned on this list, I realised what it was all about.

9 Q. Just look at that then, your brother's name, and see how he

10 features. 2nd Company Commander Slavko Badrov. There he is.

11 A. Sir, we are saying different things. When I talk about the list

12 of men, I'm talking about the list we looked at a few minutes ago that was

13 drawn up in February of 1994, sorry, 1994, February of 1993, and I keep

14 telling you --

15 Q. Break off there, because I really would just, on this occasion,

16 want to take time to follow what you're really saying to us. Let me

17 remind you of what you've said when first asked --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. -- about your explanation about the possible significance of this

20 document. "The number of persons could be the same." Madam, that is what

21 you said. You then declined to give any estimate of the number that you

22 saw on the Slatka Vode list. What did you mean by saying "the number of

23 persons could be the same"? Because that is the only explanation for your

24 conclusion about this list.

25 A. This is approximately the knowledge that I had when I came to the

1 brigade. I mean, what I learned when I found certain papers, heard

2 stories, learned things from other members of the command. I mean, when

3 we're talking about the number of personnel. I did not organise shifts.

4 I do not know how many persons there were on one shift and how this

5 exactly functioned.

6 Q. My last question on this document, just if you can deal with it,

7 is this: If you really have no knowledge of this document and you're just

8 guessing, perhaps it just refers to the home guard. It doesn't refer to

9 soldiers. Does it just refer to home guard per village?

10 A. What do you mean by "home guard"? If you mean organised village

11 guards then that's it perhaps, but I don't know to what extent they were

12 armed actually.

13 Q. Look at another document please. I'm afraid the original which

14 will come to you is not terribly clear. It's 636.1, and if you'd have a

15 look at the original, I'll read the relevant bits of the English slowly

16 for you to follow.

17 The document is dated the 10th of April, so this is just four days

18 earlier. This time, your barely formed brigade would have you and Cerkez

19 and one or two other people in the headquarters. Would that be about

20 right? Ms. Badrov, on the 10th of April would that not be about right,

21 you and Cerkez and one or two other people?

22 A. Could you please tell me what Mr. Cerkez, I, and two or three

23 other persons -- I mean, how do you link us to this document? I really

24 don't understand what you're saying.

25 Q. I was asking you a question, Ms. Badrov.

1 A. Yes. Sorry. Sorry.

2 Q. I would be grateful for your assistance. On the 10th of April or

3 thereabouts, on your account, there was just Cerkez and you and a few

4 other people at the headquarters and no brigade. Have I got the picture

5 you're painting for us, broadly speaking, correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. NICE: Let's just lay on the ELMO for a second the second

8 sheet of the original of that document and then it could go back too.

9 Q. Ms. Badrov, just so we can be sure about it, because you recognise

10 the signature. There's the signature of Mr. Cerkez; correct? Highly

11 distinctive.

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. NICE: So that can go back to the witness.

15 Q. So on the 10th of April, if Mr. Cerkez is preparing a document in

16 your little office, you must have known what he was engaged in, mustn't

17 you?

18 A. Mr. Cerkez was not exactly sitting in my office. He had an office

19 of his own. I really do not know, believe me, where this document was

20 drawn up. I can't tell now. It says something here, but it really is

21 hardly legible. "Pursuant to the conclusions," I think --

22 Q. Please stop a minute, Mr. Badrov. What I'll do is -- pick it up.

23 MR. NICE: If the usher can move it down just a touch. Thank you

24 very much.

25 Q. It's called "Elements of Extract from the Mobilisation Plan."

1 It's "pursuant to the conclusion of the seminar for chiefs of organisation

2 and personnel," and, "In conjunction with the extract from the basic

3 mobilisation plan, we are sending you the necessary elements for the Vitez

4 Brigade classed as a R infantry brigade sorting to the temporary

5 establishment number." IT then sets out the unit code; the number of

6 soldiers, which should be 2.841; the kind of unit; the military post code,

7 which is a post code that had to be used in all references to the unit;

8 the location; and so on; and the intended or actual first degree of

9 readiness at six hours.

10 Well, this brigade was in some state of preparation, wasn't it,

11 Ms. Badrov, judging by this letter?

12 A. Yes. We may conclude that this is when the mobilisation

13 development was carried out, that is to say, an overview as to what the

14 Vitez Brigade should look like. This was supposed to be a point of

15 departure for the establishment of the Vitez Brigade. Professionally, we

16 call this "Extract from the Mobilisation Development."

17 Q. Are you saying that by this time --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for Mr. Nice.

19 MR. NICE: Sorry about that.

20 Q. Are you saying that by this time there were no soldiers in the

21 brigade being paid?

22 A. I told you that when I came to the command of the Vitez Brigade,

23 there was part of the command personnel there, but I can't really remember

24 honestly whether we did get any pay at that time.

25 Q. What about the Anti-Sabotage Platoon? That was in existence,

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1 wasn't it?

2 A. Anti-Sabotage Platoon? No.

3 Q. Not at all? Does it not mean anything to you, madam?

4 A. As far as I know, no, there wasn't such a unit within the

5 brigade. Towards the very end of the war, we established at certain parts

6 of the front line -- we tried to make some kind of mobile units that could

7 be conveniently deployed from one section to another, that is to say,

8 where the greatest strikes would come at the front line, but believe me, I

9 can't remember.

10 Q. Well, are you really saying that you have no knowledge of anything

11 called the Anti-Sabotage Platoon existing before April of 1993?

12 A. Before April 1993? I don't know.

13 Q. Or is the reality that you know that the Anti-Sabotage Platoon got

14 its hands so bloody that you've got to try and disassociate yourself from

15 it. Is that the truth, Ms. Badrov?

16 A. Sir, that is not true. I really do not know what happened before

17 the month of March, 1993.

18 Q. But you know what happened in the month of March, and there's

19 nothing that could have been happening about the organisation of the

20 brigade and its sub-units unknown to you, is it? Nobody else was

21 organising bits of the brigade separate from you, Ms. Badrov.

22 A. The establishment of the Vitez Brigade was done by me. I did this

23 in several stages, but I did it after the conflict broke out, that is to

24 say, after the 16th of April.

25 Q. The next exhibit then, please, perhaps you'd like to look at this

1 one. Now, if we look at this document, Ms. Badrov, the 22nd of March,

2 look at the foot of the page to see who it comes from because I've -- it

3 comes from Cerkez and is it signed there.

4 A. Yes, there is a signature here.

5 Q. Do you recognise the signature?

6 A. I think -- I think it could be Mario's signature, yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Let's go back to the body of this document. You see

8 this document says, and look at the date, it's the 22nd of March, so well

9 within your time frame, "Pursuant to the decision of the HVO government in

10 Vitez regarding the regular monthly payments for the PDV or Anti-Sabotage

11 Platoon in the form of 15 days' field service, please pay PDV Commander

12 Mato Ljubicic and the members of his unit as follows," and then there's a

13 list of 24 names which we'll just have a look at. If we'll just take

14 those and remind the Chamber of what the names are, on the ELMO. We see

15 various names: Ljubicic, Ivisic, and so on, Safradin, Bonic, and so on.

16 These were the early days of the formation of your brigade. Help us with

17 what this document is all about.

18 A. I cannot tell you a thing about this document because this is the

19 end of March 1993. As I already said, that is the period when I worked

20 simultaneously in the secondary school and in the brigade command. What I

21 did at the brigade command was the following: I was reading regulations

22 as to how a brigade should be established. Such documents -- I was not

23 working on such documents at the time, nor did I receive them.

24 Q. I see. So you really can't -- you can't explain this document at

25 all to us; is that really your position?

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. Well, let's move to Ahmici. Where were you --

3 JUDGE MAY: Before you go, for the record, the number of that

4 document.

5 MR. NICE: Yes, I'm sorry, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MAY: I think it's Z560.2.

7 MR. NICE: You're exactly right, Z560.2. Sorry not to have

8 recited that straight away.

9 Q. Ms. Badrov, let's move to Ahmici. Where were you on the day of

10 the 15th of April, please?

11 A. On the 15th of April, that was a day like any other day before

12 that for me. I went to the brigade command. I did what I was supposed to

13 do, that is to say -- well, I can't remember how long our working hours

14 were, whether it was three, four, or five. At any rate, after that, I

15 went home.

16 Q. Yes. The night of the 15th?

17 A. The night of the 15th, at home.

18 Q. 16th, where were you?

19 A. At home.

20 Q. Why didn't you go into work? Why didn't you go to the brigade

21 headquarters?

22 A. Because I could not, sir.

23 Q. Why not?

24 A. Because there was shooting outside. Things were happening that I

25 did not know a thing about. I phoned the brigade headquarters. The

1 person on duty answered the phone. I can't even remember who it was. I

2 said that I cannot get out of the house, that I had no idea what was going

3 on. And he said to me that there was no problem whatsoever, that I could

4 remain at home and that the vehicle belonging to brigade headquarters

5 would come and pick me up whenever that would become possible.

6 I cannot tell you exactly after that whether it was two, three,

7 four, or five days that I spent at home.

8 Q. I see. Which part of Vitez do you live in or did you live in?

9 A. Across the street from the secondary school in a private house.

10 Q. And how many metres is that from brigade headquarters roughly, or

11 kilometres, whatever you like?

12 A. Well, less than a kilometre.

13 Q. And by this stage, you were the only person who'd done anything to

14 organise the brigade, you were the only person who had been looking at the

15 documents and researching the names of the soldiers; would that be right?

16 A. I was the only person who was trying to establish the brigade, not

17 the only person who was already working on the establishment of the

18 brigade. I mean by then, I think that I had not managed to complete a

19 single paper on the establishment of the brigade.

20 Q. But with this limited preparation, there would be no way, really,

21 of calling brigade members up or enlisting conscripts or anything like

22 that, would there, in your absence?

23 A. What could the people from the brigade do? They could not carry

24 out mobilisation because that is not within the description of what a

25 brigade is supposed to do, to mobilise people. I was the person within

1 the brigade who was in charge of the deployment of personnel within the

2 brigade.

3 Q. So until your return five days later, no mobilisation occurred, I

4 suppose.

5 A. Sir, the command of the Vitez Brigade or the department for

6 establishment and cadres is not in charge of mobilisation. Until then we

7 had not received any mobilised men and therefore we had not deployed them

8 within the brigade. That's what I'm telling you.

9 Q. Did you learn anything in these four or five days that you stayed

10 at home? Did you learn about anything that was happening outside?

11 A. One could find out very few things for the simple reason that

12 people, at least as far as I know, and in my area, did not move around.

13 And people -- most people were really at a loss at what was going on. All

14 we could see was smoke billowing from some houses, gunfire, chaos all

15 around, but nobody really had a full grasp of what was going on.

16 Q. Did you have any Muslim neighbours?

17 A. Yes. My next-door neighbours were Muslims, and they spent those

18 first few days together with me in my house.

19 Q. And then they were detained, I suspect.

20 A. No, sir. My neighbours were not detained.

21 Q. How did they avoid that, then?

22 A. As for my neighbours, it was a woman with two children and her

23 mother. She stayed in her home, and her husband happened to be on the

24 front line somewhere on Mount Vlasic as a member of the Territorial

25 Defence so he wasn't at home.

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. And those others were also in their respective homes. They simply

3 were not taken away anywhere.

4 Q. When you went back to the office after four or five or how many

5 days it was, you must have discovered what had happened in the meanwhile.

6 What did Cerkez tell you?

7 A. No. I think that Cerkez did not discuss that matter with me. The

8 only thing he told me then after he returned was to go immediately to the

9 post office because in the cellar, there were members of the defence

10 office with all the necessary documentation about conscripts, and to sit

11 together with them and set up the brigade as best I could. That was the

12 conversation we had.

13 Q. Is the position, Ms. Badrov, just so that we understand it, that

14 you still haven't the first idea about what happened between the 15th and

15 the 20th of April, 1993; is that what you're telling us?

16 A. Now, you mean? At this moment? If you're asking me if I know now

17 what happened between the 15th and the 20th, then I do know that Ahmici

18 happened, and I do know what was roughly going on in Vitez and around it.

19 Q. Well, when did you learn about Ahmici and who from, first?

20 A. Well, I learned about Ahmici not all that quickly. It could have

21 been some ten days later or so.

22 Q. Who from?

23 A. Believe me, I really can't remember now. People were saying that

24 something horrible had happened in Ahmici, but concretely, specifically

25 what, I can't really remember who told me that.

1 Q. The most obvious person to ask might have been Cerkez. Did you

2 ask him?

3 A. No. No. No, I did not ask Mario Cerkez about it.

4 Q. There was Cerkez, his secretary, you. Who else at that time was

5 in the office?

6 A. Well, if we're talking about my office, sir, then Mario Cerkez was

7 not there because Mario Cerkez had his office. In my office was Zoran

8 Drmic, and he was the one together with me. Do you want to know anything

9 else about that office?

10 Q. Perhaps you'd be good enough, please, to look at this page, just

11 this page.

12 MR. NICE: Put it on the ELMO perhaps, if you would, just like

13 that.

14 Q. Just look at that, please. That's Cerkez's signature, isn't it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would you like to look at this document as well, please.

17 MR. NICE: Just lay it on the ELMO.

18 JUDGE MAY: What is it, Mr. Nice, please?

19 MR. NICE: I'll produce it in a second. I'm just getting the

20 signatures identified.

21 Q. This is Cerkez's signature, isn't it?

22 A. I think so, yes.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. NICE: They're two new exhibits, Zagreb origin. I served

25 copies, as soon as I had them, this morning on the Defence. The witness

1 produces them by the signatures. The first one is 671.4. It's only

2 because of the time at which it arrived it's only got a rough translation,

3 but it's worth reading the document in full, and I'll ask the witness to

4 read it in the original and then we can, on this occasion, take the

5 advantage of having the interpreters here.

6 Q. Madam, I'm going to ask you, because we've only had this document

7 recently and roughly translated by the most senior of the translation

8 staff here, I'm going to ask you, if you wouldn't mind, please, to read

9 the original document to us. I hope the interpreters have got copies of

10 the document. They're coming their way, because I think on this occasion

11 it will help them.

12 We can see that it's dated the 16th of April. It comes from the

13 HVO and it's signed by Cerkez. It goes to the commander of the operating

14 zone in Central Bosnia.

15 Madam, would you be good enough, please, then to just to start

16 reading at "Svezi", for us, please.

17 A. You want me to read it aloud?

18 Q. Yes, aloud. Yes, please.

19 A. "With reference to your case about further combat activities, I

20 enclose here with the report as follows:

21 "1. Village Donja Veceriska has been done 70 per cent. There is

22 still one more place where they are well fortified and dug in. We are

23 investing our utmost effort to take that as well.

24 "The village of Ahmici has also been done 70 per cent, and we

25 have 14 captured who have been put up in summer cottages, village of

1 Nadioci.

2 "Sivrino Selo has been moved out or evacuated to Slivcica. They

3 are well dug in and fortified there. Our artillery is acting on these

4 positions without intermission.

5 "It is very difficult to take the village of Vrhovine and now

6 we're applying only artillery treatment.

7 "The situation in Vranjska and Kruscica is very difficult. Our

8 units cannot advance due to the relief, due to the configuration on the

9 ground. The above-mentioned area we're treating with artillery, with

10 mortars 120 metres [sic] and MTD.

11 "Our units in Kruscica, Lovac, Ribnjak, are completely cut off

12 and surrounded. They are resisting. They are resisting all the time, and

13 we cannot offer them logistical -- logistic support.

14 "The situation in Poculica is also difficult, but our units are

15 not retreating in spite of the forceful pressure of Muslim forces from

16 Preocica.

17 "Movements of Muslim forces at Bukve, Sadovace, and Muratovici

18 have been observed. One unit is needed to lend assistance in the village

19 of Krcevine to link up with Jardol and resist all the Muslim attacks.

20 "Assistance is needed in artillery in the area of Vrhovine,

21 Poculica around the mosque, and Preocica.

22 "The morale of the soldiers is very good, even though we have

23 fatalities and casualties. The units are engaged 100 per cent.

24 "Done in two copies. Submitted to the addressee, and one for the

25 files. Commander of the Vitez, Mario Cerkez."

1 Q. On your evidence so far, Ms. Badrov, there were no units for

2 Mr. Cerkez to be disposing of on the 16th of April, were there?

3 A. I do not know whom Mr. Cerkez had in mind when he said -- when he

4 spoke about soldiers and units, but I do claim that at that time, the

5 Vitez Brigade did not exist.

6 Q. I'm going to suggest to you, madam, that you've come here to

7 understate the reality of the position of the Viteska Brigade in March and

8 April of 1993, and documents such as this prove what you've told us is

9 untrue. Follow me so there's no misunderstanding. I'm suggesting to you

10 that you're misleading this Chamber. What do you say to that?

11 A. Sir, I am not misleading anyone. I claim that I was employed in

12 the command of the Vitez Brigade preparing it, setting up, also that the

13 Vitez Brigade was not set up at the time this document was issued on the

14 16th of April. I claim that on the 16th of April and then onward, for

15 several days I was unable to leave my home, and, therefore, I could not

16 undertake the organisation of the Vitez Brigade.

17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, I think that at this

18 stage, one should perhaps ask the witness what does she understand by the

19 setting up of the brigade, because you tell us that the brigade was not

20 structured yet, set up. At least that's the interpretation that we're

21 getting.

22 What do you mean by setting up, by the structuring of the

23 brigade? What do you mean by this? Perhaps if you tell us that, we shall

24 be able to avoid talking at cross purposes. You were engaged to do what

25 exactly? And what do you mean when you say the "setting up" of the

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1 brigade or the "structuring" of the brigade?

2 A. When I say that I was to set up or structure the brigade, I mean

3 the document which we saw a moment ago, that is, the extract from the

4 mobilisation development, and on the basis of it, the establishment of the

5 brigade from the command downward, that is, to form a brigade with all

6 that that means, whether it is a brigade three battalions strong, again,

7 with three companies each, with all the support.

8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] No. I don't think that you

9 understand what I am saying. I do not think you understood my question.

10 But when you came, the brigade already existed. It did not wait for your

11 arrival to come into existence. Or in other words, you came there to --

12 it is a matter of reorganisation rather than the existence of the

13 brigade. You were hired to work in a brigade which already existed there

14 and to then reorganise.

15 A. What I know is that when I joined the command of the Vitez

16 Brigade, that I found there some of the superiors, some of the command

17 personnel, that is, seven, eight, nine -- I don't know how many of them

18 could have been there. And I know that approximately -- I can't know the

19 date, but as of the 20th of June onward, I sat in the post office cellar

20 taking out cards and trying to organise the brigade on paper, a brigade

21 which would be ready for action. That is what I know. I know I spent

22 days on end in that cellar going through documents and forming the Vitez

23 Brigade. What was going on outside on the ground at that time in the

24 command of the brigade, I really don't know whence this document, who does

25 this Mr. Mario Cerkez issue orders, I really don't know.

1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well. But then what you

2 were doing is considering something that you were doing in an office and

3 that your work was to present a kind of organigramme, a kind of a graph of

4 an organisational chart, isn't it, about the organisation of the brigade.

5 You are not a woman who came from the field, from the ground. You were

6 simply trying to present a chart of the organisation of the brigade, is

7 that it?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 MR. NICE:

10 Q. Before we part from this document which was prepared in the office

11 where there were just a couple of rooms, can you help us at all with your

12 conversations at the time what is meant by the village of Donja Veceriska

13 or the village of Ahmici being done 70 per cent? Can you help us with

14 that?

15 A. I can only attempt to interpret this document, and say what I

16 think.

17 Q. Did you hear anything about --

18 A. Whether about this, you mean, about this I have heard nothing

19 about this and I only see the document that you are showing to me.

20 Q. You see, we see that on the 16th of April, your boss, Mario

21 Cerkez, was signing as the commander of the Vitez Brigade, speaking of his

22 soldiers, "... having good morale," last sentence, "... although some of

23 them already," that is already by the 16th of April, "... being killed and

24 injured." This was the Viteska Brigade's report of what it had been doing

25 on the 16th at Ahmici and elsewhere.

1 A. Well, it is written here as you said that the morale of the

2 soldiers is high and that whether there are killed and wounded soldiers

3 and yes, it is signed by Mario Cerkez even in the heading we do not see

4 that this is the commander of the Vitez Brigade. But I grant that

5 Mr. Cerkez may have prepared this document, but I really know nothing

6 about it.

7 Q. Let's look at the second document, the signature of which you

8 identified when I laid it on the ELMO. And whereas the last one is dated

9 the 16th of April but isn't timed, it has, as we see, as we part from it

10 serial number 02-125-12/93, the next document we're looking at, perhaps

11 we'll just focus on the serial number to begin with at the top,

12 02-125-13/93. Does that suggest to you that the document we're looking at

13 follows the previous one we're looking at because the serial number is one

14 number higher.

15 A. If the difference is only one digit, then it should be the

16 sequence of events. Is it the figure "9" before it? On this document I

17 think it says 902-125 or is it a mistake. I don't know.

18 Q. Let's check. The first one is only 02. This one it's a little

19 hard to see because of the way the numbers and the words merge, and it may

20 be 02 or it may be 902. It's hard to tell. In any event, subject to that

21 clarification, you would accept that 13 follows 12, and the time of this

22 document is 1450. I wonder if you'd mind reading this out for us again,

23 same reason. We've only had it very shortly and therefore have only had a

24 draft or rough translation. It's not a long document. Perhaps you'd just

25 read it out for us. We can see, by the way, at the heading of this one it

1 comes from the Viteska Brigade.

2 A. Yes. It says the command of the Vitez Brigade. Report. "With

3 reference to your inquiry related about the assistance to the unit which

4 is under blockade in Kruscica, I have no specific suggestion at present.

5 The only possible access is via Zabrdje and then around. Otherwise, this

6 is a unit 50 men strong who are members of the PDV and an artillery

7 battery. They are well equipped and ready for the worst tasks. Until I

8 receive a message from them of any kind, I would rather not make any

9 proposals. I should like to seize the opportunity to inform you that the

10 town is 'clean' and that at the brigade police, in its cellar, we have

11 about 50 Muslims. Stari Vitez continues to be a problem. What should we

12 do with them? Brigade Commander, Mario Cerkez."

13 Q. I asked you before about PDV. PDV stands for Anti-Sabotage

14 Platoon, doesn't it?

15 A. Yes, it should be an acronym for the Anti-Sabotage Platoon, yes.

16 Q. One day after you've gone home from work, as you've described it,

17 Mr. Cerkez is able to speak of a unit of 50 soldiers who are members of

18 the Anti-Sabotage Platoon. Would you like to reconsider your answers

19 about the existence of an Anti-Sabotage Platoon at this period of time?

20 A. No, sir. I have no need to reconsider what I said because I claim

21 that the Vitez Brigade at that time had neither units nor an Anti-Sabotage

22 Platoon.

23 Q. And you can't explain how in the heat of this no doubt busy day,

24 you have no explanation as to how your commander could have been writing

25 about a platoon that simply didn't exist?

1 A. I really cannot interpret such a document because I do not know

2 why Mr. Cerkez issued this document. Whom did he have in mind when he

3 spoke about the Anti-Sabotage Platoon, I really don't know.

4 Q. Two other questions focussing on your contemporary experience. We

5 see that he writes of the PDV that they are well equipped and prepared for

6 the worst duties. Was it the case that the PDV were the unit, to your

7 knowledge, used for the nastiest tasks?

8 A. If you are asking me.

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. I said I did not know what unit it was, where it was, and I do not

11 know what they were ready for, sir.

12 Q. The second question, I think, in fact, of two or three more, but

13 not very many on this document. You were there five days later or

14 thereabouts, four or five days later talking to these people, Cerkez and

15 others. In the language of the time, what was meant by the word "clean"?

16 It's in the document. What was meant by the word "clean"?

17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, you are referring to

18 what document?

19 MR. NICE: This document that we're looking at at the moment.

20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Where in the document?

21 MR. NICE: The penultimate paragraph. It says, and I'm afraid I

22 didn't note the interpreter's translation, and I still have the rough

23 English, but it says, "I take this opportunity to inform you that the town

24 is 'clean.'"

25 A. Yes, I --

1 Q. Just give me one second. Yes. When you read this line out the

2 court interpreter's called it the sentence as reading, "I should like to

3 seize the opportunity to inform you that the town is 'clean.'" Well, in

4 the brigade headquarters, what did the word "clean" mean in those days,

5 please?

6 A. Well, during the war anyway, when you know, this is military

7 vernacular, a kind of idiom that soldiers use. They say that the town is

8 under control or a part of it or --

9 Q. It doesn't have anything to do with whether there were Muslims

10 present or on the street, does it?

11 A. Well, you could say that it might have to do something with it,

12 that is, that Muslims who are, in that part, under control.

13 Q. And then the -- we see that there were 50 Muslims in the cellar of

14 the brigade police station; did you know about that?

15 A. I knew there were people in the cellar of the Vitez Brigade

16 command.

17 Q. Those had obviously been detained by or on behalf of the Viteska

18 Brigade, hadn't they?

19 A. What I know is that when I came several days later, I could not

20 enter my office because those men were there. And that I moved among them

21 to take out documents, books, papers that I needed, and then went to

22 another office so that I did see them. But who had brought them there, I

23 really was not present there at the time and I do not know.

24 Q. The last question on this document: Mr. Cerkez says, I will just

25 check again the way it was expressed, "Stari Vitez continues to be a

1 problem." This is only 2.50 on the 16th, 12 hours or so, a bit more after

2 you left the office. Stari Vitez continues to be a problem. What was the

3 problem with the people of Stari Vitez as you understood it, if they lived

4 as Muslims in their part of town?

5 A. I did not understand what it was and what was the problem. I

6 didn't know about the document at that time. And as for Stari Vitez, that

7 is the old part of the town where there are both Muslims and Croats.

8 Q. Do you live in that side of town or the other side?

9 A. No. I live in the town itself across the street from the

10 secondary school. I already told you that. Stari Vitez is a bit further

11 away.

12 Q. You heard the truck bomb, did you, when it went off?

13 A. If you are referring to the explosion in Mahala, yes, we all heard

14 that.

15 Q. Right. Let's move on to another document. Staying with the topic

16 of those Muslims who had been detained. You remember that I asked you

17 some questions because you prepared a list. Did you prepare that list as

18 Cerkez's instructions?

19 A. No, Mr. Cerkez had absolutely nothing to do with it. I prepared

20 this list at the instruction of the late Borislav Jozic. While he was

21 busy with discussions with the international representatives, he asked me

22 to prepare that list while he was doing that.

23 Q. Well you, of course, don't know whether Jozic was acting on

24 Cerkez's instructions, do you?

25 A. I really don't know whether they had any conversation in that

1 regard.

2 Q. If you will look at this document, this is a Defence Exhibit 307/1

3 out of their binders and it's tab 248, I think. It's already been

4 produced or do we have copies for everyone.

5 MR. NICE: We have got copies for everyone, Your Honour. I'm not

6 sure whether you want us to produce such documents. They are already in

7 the Defence binders. It depends what is more convenient for the Chamber.

8 JUDGE MAY: If you've got a copy with the original number on it.

9 MR. NICE: Yes, it's coming your way.

10 Q. The original, Ms. Badrov, is reasonably clearly photocopied and I

11 think you can see Cerkez's signature at the foot of the document. And

12 this document is dated the 30th of April, it's timed, and it says, "Order

13 to release all detained civilians and clear up the battlefield pursuant to

14 the joint order of the chief of HVO Main Staff and the chief of the BH

15 Army Main Staff dated the 29th of April. In order to ensure its timely

16 implementation, I hereby order the following: 1, immediately start

17 compiling lists of detained civilians (children up to 18 years of age),

18 women, men, who were not arrested and soldiers including the following

19 details."

20 Now, looking back, does your involvement at the release of the

21 prisoners, as it were, subsequent to or consequent on this order, please?

22 A. Believe me, I cannot say when this was.

23 Q. I mean, to be fair to you, so that you can know what the state of

24 the evidence is, the witness who I spoke of earlier who identified you by

25 your name, by the fact that your brother played basketball and that you

1 were in uniform, said that he was visited at Kratine on the 26th of April,

2 brought back to the SDK building and stayed there for a couple of days,

3 which would take us to about the 28th, 29th, and then released. So he's

4 not very clear about the time of his release. About the end of the month,

5 about the time of this order.

6 Was it the case that you were preparing the list and releasing

7 these people or being involved in their release at about the end of

8 April?

9 A. I have already told you that as far as the release of people is

10 concerned, I was involved in that purely as an administrative official,

11 because I was there at the time and I just had enough time to do this.

12 Q. It's the date I'm interested in.

13 A. I cannot tell you the date. I really don't remember.

14 Q. Only a few more documents that I'd like your help with. The next

15 one, 4th of May, 1993, 882.3.

16 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, in order to avoid any possible

17 confusion with the numbers, will the document get another number, or will

18 we register it under the original number?

19 JUDGE MAY: The last one, as our practice is, will remain with the

20 old number D3071, tab 248.

21 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you.

22 JUDGE MAY: Is this a new document?

23 MR. NICE: It's a new document, Your Honour, yes.

24 JUDGE MAY: Where is it from?

25 MR. NICE: I'm pretty sure it's Zagreb. Yes. It's a Zagreb

1 document as -- generally you can judge by the format of the numbers on the

2 top right-hand corner which are characteristic of the current exercise.

3 Q. It's a small point Ms. Badrov, but you've told us something about

4 the position of the military police, and this is a document that goes --

5 we only need look at it briefly -- it goes from Commander Anto Kovac. I

6 think, we'll look at the end of the document. Perhaps you'll confirm

7 that. There were two names, isn't it. Would you help us with the format

8 of the document? It's Ivica Jukic and Anto Kovac's name. What does that

9 mean? Just so we can understand it.

10 A. If I understand you correctly, this has to do with some control

11 which was carried out, and two members signed off of it. One is Ivica

12 Jukic and the other one 4VP, which could stand for military police or it

13 could also be the military postal code, and that is Anto Kovac. So these

14 are two members from some type of commission which had carried out some

15 control. This is what I can construe on the basis of the document

16 itself.

17 Q. And if we look on the front of the document dated the 4th of May,

18 we can see it goes to the commander of the Vitez Brigade, Mr. Cerkez, and

19 says in its report, "We carried out the control of apartments and the

20 control of apartments was carried out by the following military

21 policemen."

22 Now, you were there. Military policemen were doing whatever they

23 were doing with people's apartments, and they were answering to

24 Mr. Cerkez, weren't they, because the military police responded to him.

25 A. Sir, this depends on the exact time during the war, and then what

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1 military police these concern -- whether these were the police which had

2 been attached to the Vitez Brigade, to the 1st Battalion, but the only

3 thing I can conclude from this is that the two individuals signing the

4 document on behalf of the military police had addressed this to Mr. Mario

5 Cerkez, the commander of the Vitez Brigade. Now, whether they had carried

6 out a control at the request of Mr. Mario Cerkez, that I do not know,

7 but ...

8 Q. Yes, go on.

9 A. ... they are reporting that a control had been conducted of some

10 apartments.

11 Q. You gave us some answers about the military police yesterday, and

12 I just want you to think about that. There was a brigade of military

13 police in the Viteska Brigade who were at all times answerable to

14 Mr. Cerkez. That's correct, isn't it?

15 A. No. No.

16 Q. I'm not going to take your time with that document. 1134.2 comes

17 next. Ms. Badrov, this is one of your documents. You've signed it.

18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Nice. I should

19 like Ms. Badrov to clarify one thing. You asked Ms. Badrov -- you asked

20 her if the military -- brigade military police, that is, the military

21 police within the Vitez Brigade, was always accountable to Mr. Cerkez.

22 And, Ms. Badrov, you said no, that was not true. Could you then

23 please explain to us how can you be so emphatic? How can you be so

24 categorical and tell us, "No, that is not true. This military police does

25 not depend -- is not answerable at all times to Mr. Cerkez." How can you

1 be so sure about that? How is it that you could give us such a positive

2 answer to that question?

3 A. I'm certain for a very simple reason. Because the gentleman asked

4 me whether the Military Police Brigade was under the command of Mr. Mario

5 Cerkez. A brigade numbers about 2.000 to 3.000 men, sir. That is one.

6 Number two, what I know about the military police and its connection with

7 the Vitez Brigade, I know that at first there was a group of military

8 policemen that was tasked with security of the building of the Vitez

9 Brigade command, but they had their own chain of command. They were not

10 members of the Vitez Brigade. Only later -- well, what happened was we

11 had 30 to 50 German marks which was to be distributed among the soldiers,

12 and a question arose who was going to pay them. And physically they were

13 with us, and they were under somebody else's command.

14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] But they were under whom? Those,

15 who did they belong to?

16 A. They were with the military police. The military police had its

17 own organisation, and they were --

18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] But who was their head?

19 A. At the time who was their commander? I don't know. Later on

20 during the war, I think that I was -- it was Vlado Santic, because I saw

21 him. I'm not certain, but I believe that this is who it was.

22 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] But what you are telling us,

23 these are deductions. You tell us that there was some military police,

24 but this is only what you deduced from something.

25 A. Yes.

1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 MR. NICE:

3 Q. 1134.2 comes next. If you look at this, Ms. Badrov, you'll see

4 it's a document that you prepared on the 1st of July. So that's two and a

5 half months after the outbreak of fighting, as you've described it. And

6 it sets out the position of the battalion with the numbers present, and I

7 think I have a note somewhere that you would accept that by the 1st of

8 July, there were 2.225 or thereabouts men in the battalion. You can add

9 the figures up. If you take my arithmetic as accurate, it's 2.225. In

10 the brigade, sorry.

11 A. I believe you're in error, sir. This document reflects that on

12 the 1st of July, a count was taken of the brigade by battalions, and it

13 gives you an approximate number of men, but it says that there were other

14 men from Vitez in other units, Special Purpose Units, and they were not

15 part of the Vitez Brigade.

16 Q. Just point those out to us, please. It's a document that you've

17 signed. It's the one with the full-size "Ss" and "Cs", not the other

18 machine, but it's prepared by you. And you're pointing to whom?

19 "Recruits from Vitez engaged in other units."

20 Now, supposing we just add up not those figures but let's go back

21 to the front, we'll go through it in the English. Sheet 1 shows 753, and

22 we can see that in your document, in the original. 2nd Battalion, 598;

23 the 3rd Battalion, 440; 4th Battalion, 434. If you add those up, it comes

24 to 2.225 because in doing the arithmetic, I hadn't included the others.

25 So am I right in thinking that it's 2.225 soldiers in the personnel

1 records of the Vitez Brigade, which is your heading, on the 1st of July of

2 1993.

3 A. According to this register, this is what it seems to add up to if

4 this is what you did, totals including the 4th Battalion.

5 Q. Now, you got up to -- when we say 2.225, if we just look at the

6 way you cast the 1st Battalion, the figure that I've used for the

7 arithmetic is 753. From that we see, and starting with a figure of 832, a

8 larger figure, then reducing the men from Zenica, the village guard, those

9 who were unfit, wounded, and killed, reducing the battalion command staff

10 and recruits in other units. So that the actual number of soldiers

11 available in Vitez at various times was considerably larger than this.

12 The figure 753 is the number of Vitez soldiers in the 1st Battalion at the

13 front on the 1st of July.

14 The point I want to ask you about is this, Ms. Badrov. You've

15 been saying how newly formed the brigade was, how there was no brigade.

16 Doesn't your ability to create a brigade of well over 2.000 men by July

17 show that you were building on an established fighting force that existed

18 in March and April? Doesn't it show that?

19 A. No. That doesn't show this, and you just said that these were all

20 soldiers who were in the area including the ones who were killed. So

21 perhaps, yes, that may have been all of them. But I can explain these

22 figures, sir, and how it happened that on the 1st of July we had this

23 number of men.

24 I said that the first days of conflict I spent in my house. Then

25 I went to the post office where I tried to build this up from the ground

1 up, and as the time marched on, we did not have time to establish the

2 Vitez Brigade according to rules. People had already left their homes.

3 Those who had weapons had grabbed them and they were involved in the

4 conflict. And I received the task first by village, village by village,

5 then by areas and sectors of all the men who we had available on the

6 ground.

7 Listing all these men who were on the ground in July, these were

8 the numbers that we came up with and then we tried to organise these men

9 in battalions, then bring them under control and give them commanders of.

10 Q. One other question on this document. Would you go -- in the

11 English version it's page 3, third sheet, please, bottom of the page and

12 in your document it's the second sheet, please, but it's all part of the

13 same continuous document. This is the personnel records of the Vitez

14 Brigade, as you describe it, and we see that you've set out there recruits

15 from Vitez engaged in other units; the Jokeri and the regional police, the

16 Vitezovi and special purpose units, and then the anti-aircraft motorised

17 and the work obligation units.

18 Can you explain why you, restricted to the Vitez Brigade, sign it

19 as chief of organisation and personnel, why you are setting out anything

20 about these other units, these special purpose units?

21 A. During the war, we often did everything, all of us. Just as we

22 registered the killed civilians, we also listed men of other units which

23 happened to be on the ground. I don't know what was the purpose of this

24 document. I assume that it never left the Vitez brigade command. I don't

25 know that it was sent anywhere. I don't know if this was working

1 materials. I don't recall if I was -- if I had submitted this to anybody

2 in the command and if I did remember, I probably would have been better

3 able to give you explanations on this.

4 Q. Think, please, a little more carefully, Ms. Badrov. Just a

5 minute. You prepare, we can see, a document if we look at the original,

6 it's uniform in its nature, it deals with the four battalions and then the

7 personnel. You headed it, "Personnel Records of the Vitez Brigade." It's

8 quite clear. You wouldn't have done it, I suppose, just on your own

9 initiative. You would have done it because somebody asked you to, would

10 you?

11 A. Probably somebody did ask me to do it so I did it but that does

12 not mean, sir, and first let me tell you that this was not done

13 professionally. If this is a list of the Vitez Brigade members, then

14 the -- those with work obligations should not have been included. Then

15 later on, the others, the MTD and PZO, that I don't know. I think that

16 this was probably just to gain a picture of the men available. I really

17 don't remember the purpose of compiling this document, but we occasionally

18 did produce documents with a listing -- with different listings, all kinds

19 of listings.

20 It did happen throughout the war that we were not able to get all

21 the men who were available on the ground. A lot of people tried to eschew

22 their military duties.

23 Q. Sorry to interrupt, it's a matter of time. Just looking at the

24 work obligation, that means the compulsory work obligation of Muslims and

25 Romanies and some Croats, I think, who had to go and dig trenches, doesn't

1 it?

2 A. No, sir. That's wrong.

3 Q. All right. In which case, tell me what it does mean. It's your

4 document, if I've got it wrong, you tell me?

5 A. Yes, this work obligation, work duty referred to the people

6 employed in various companies.

7 Q. All right. So they were answerable to the Viteska Brigade, were

8 they?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Well, to whom was this group of one, two, three, four, five units,

11 to whom were they answerable?

12 A. Sir, all of them had their own organisation.

13 Q. They may have had their own organisations, but who gave them

14 orders in July of 1993?

15 A. Believe me, I was not a member of any of these units, so I can

16 only tell you what I know approximately. The work duty was part of the

17 civilian sector. In fact, I think it was under the administration of the

18 war production. And the Vitezovi PPN I think had their own commander to

19 whom they were directly subordinated.

20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Wait, Ms. Badrov. You told us,

21 "Yes, but I began to set up the Vitez Brigade, but it was the beginning

22 of the hostilities, the conflict, we were overwhelmed by events. Then one

23 day I drew up these things, these battalions. I don't know who commands

24 whom." So you did, you prepared this document under the pressure of the

25 events at that time. But when you did this, you tell us you were under

1 the pressure of the events, but nevertheless you were aware of the chain

2 of command, weren't you? You did have some idea about how to articulate

3 the whole thing. You know who was in the command of what. You knew the

4 hierarchy. Could you tell us something about that?

5 A. I can tell you, but what command staff are you referring to, the

6 subordinate units, the local --

7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] No. No. No. I'm talking about

8 the chain of command. I'm not talking about men, about the personnel in

9 the command. I'm talking about the chain of command because you have here

10 a structure. Now, will you tell us what were the relations, how was it

11 structured? Between the commander in chief and down the ladder, how was

12 it organised?

13 A. I would gladly answer this question, but I'm not sure that it is

14 perfectly clear to me but let me try. As far as the chain of command --

15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] The chain of command. I am

16 asking you about the chain of command. Do you know something about it or

17 not?

18 A. You mean generally in Vitez or within the Vitez Brigade.

19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] In the brigade that you were

20 concerned with, because you deployed the personnel, you must have known

21 how the relations in the brigade were organised.

22 A. Within the brigade, there were members of the brigade command,

23 then there were members of the lower organisational units, and I believe

24 that their relationships were all right. When we talk about the

25 organisational structure, that is the chain of command, after it had

1 already been set up and after it had already been operational in the war.

2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] And how were the orders sent down

3 the chain?

4 A. The orders were transmitted in such a way that the -- orders of

5 the brigade commander would be sent down. It varied from situation to

6 situation, usually it was in the written form, but sometimes it was orally

7 to the subordinate commander, that is the battalion commanders.

8 MR. NICE: I don't know if the Chamber is looking for a convenient

9 moment.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Have you got much more for this witness?

11 MR. NICE: No, Your Honour. I have a few more documents to put to

12 her and, of course, I've got about half a dozen or eight affidavits to

13 deal with and then the documents that she went over from the various Spork

14 binders but I don't need to ask her many questions about.

15 JUDGE MAY: We have to stop at quarter to four. There is another

16 matter for the Trial Chamber at 4.00. We'll adjourn now until 25 to

17 3.00.

18 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.07 p.m.

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1 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

2 MR. NICE:

3 Q. Ms. Badrov, very briefly while we've just got that document on the

4 ELMO, if the usher will just return us to page 3 of the English version

5 and if you'd look at the second page of the B/C/S version, we were looking

6 at the last entry, work obligation, 339 people. You said something about

7 this being people in the factories. Is it your case that there was never

8 any compulsory work platoons under the command of the Viteska Brigade?

9 A. I am not making any assertions with regard to that matter. What I

10 am asserting is that this shows the people who were engaged on the basis

11 of law to comply with work obligations.

12 Q. Does that mean trench digging? Let's not beat about the bush.

13 Does that mean trench digging?

14 A. This here does not mean trench digging.

15 Q. What did you know about trench digging by Muslims, Romanies, and

16 others?

17 A. As regards trench digging, they were dug by all who were available

18 at a given moment, that is to say, the Romany, the Muslims, the Croats,

19 and the Serbs.

20 Q. And the Romanies and the Muslims did it under compulsion, didn't

21 they, and under guard?

22 A. All of them worked in work platoons in the same way. They dug

23 trenches together, as far as I know, both Muslims and Croats, and they had

24 the same kind of treatment in the work platoons.

25 Q. I will repeat the question so that you can answer it, under

1 compulsion and under guard; yes or no?

2 A. People were mobilised according to the law by the defence office

3 for the purpose of trench digging. That is what I can answer to that

4 question.

5 Q. I'm not going to pursue that further with the witness. 1165.1,

6 very briefly. Ms. Badrov, this is a document signed by you. I don't need

7 to discuss it with you in detail if you tell me it's an accurate record,

8 statistically, of the brigade.

9 A. This here is not an accurate record statistically of the brigade.

10 We've already discussed that.

11 Q. I've noted your answer, Ms. Badrov. I'm not accepting it. I'm

12 asking you to look at another document now, the last document that we are

13 taking away totalled 2.200 personnel as a minimum. If we now look at this

14 document, it's a letter of yours dated the 12th of August, a month later,

15 and, "In connection with the establishment of records on manpower, I

16 submit the following report." You then set out the tasks that you

17 undertook. It's all set out in detail and to save time, if we go to page

18 2 on the English and if you go again to page 2 in your B/C/S version, you

19 summarise the position at the top of page 2 with the active personnel of

20 2.287 members. You then go through the number, "108 so far killed, 350

21 wounded, 128 under medical treatment," and you summarise this information

22 that the total of 2.600 members have been engaged in our brigade. 92.78

23 per cent of the envisaged establishment. It's your document countersigned

24 by Cerkez. Was it accurate?

25 A. Yes, I imagine it is accurate.

1 Q. Thank you. And just to avoid any misunderstanding, you put a note

2 at the foot of the page that it included one company of Zenica Brigade

3 members. Right. Next document, please, 1199.3.

4 Ms. Badrov, I'm trying to get from you an accurate and full

5 picture of the position on trench digging and compulsory work. This

6 document is not your document. It comes from Marijan Skopljak. It's

7 dated the 10th of September, 1993. If you look at the original, is

8 Marijan Skopljak's a signature you recognise?

9 A. It is possible that I've already had the opportunity of seeing

10 Marijan Skopljak's signature, but I really cannot say for sure whether

11 this is his signature or not. I'm not familiar enough with it.

12 Q. Very well. You're referred to in this quite long document. I'm

13 going to have to summarise to try and save time, and I'll take you to the

14 appropriate paragraphs for speed. This is a report on the establishment

15 of work platoons and in the second paragraph, it says, "The work platoons

16 that were mobilised by the Vitez Municipal Defence Office are comprised of

17 members of the Croatian population who have been categorised as unfit for

18 military service, and the remaining part is comprised of members of the

19 Roma," or Romany, "and Muslim ethnic groups."

20 Would you like to just tell us is that correct?

21 A. That's what it says here, yes.

22 Q. And I'm asking you. You're the witness. From your recollection,

23 is that correct?

24 A. If you're asking me whether I remember that work platoons were

25 established in that way, yes.

1 Q. Thank you. The next paragraph deals with two particular platoons,

2 Sofa and Zlic, and if we look at the last two or three lines of that

3 paragraph, it sets out how those work platoons have performed tasks in

4 night conditions frequently under enemy fire. Two members of the work

5 unit have been killed at work, two others have been wounded. That was the

6 experience, was it, these compulsory work platoons suffered casualties

7 including death?

8 A. The fact was that there had been casualties among the members of

9 the work platoons, but later they had the same entitlements as any HVO

10 member. That is to say that they were not discriminated against either in

11 terms of rights or responsibilities.

12 Q. Next paragraph says this: "The next work platoon formed directly

13 within the competence of the Defence office is the Vitez number one work

14 platoon." Now, this is coming from your office, the Vitez Defence office,

15 Vitez work platoon. It has a total of 17 members and is manned by Muslims

16 and Croats categorised as unfit for military service. "The unit has also

17 been used since the start of the fighting with Muslim units and operates

18 throughout Vitez municipality." Correct? And while you're answering

19 whether the statements are correct, correct also that this was under the

20 Vitez Defence office from the word go?

21 A. That was within the province of work of the defence office of

22 Vitez. I mean, the engagement of these platoons, if that is what you are

23 referring to. In my answer, I concentrate only on that.

24 Q. You look at the top of the page in the original. Though you don't

25 know Skopljak's signature, whose is the signature at the top of the page

1 in the original?

2 A. To me, this looks like Mario Cerkez's signature. I'm not sure

3 though. I'd have to compare.

4 Q. We go to the next page in both your version and the second page in

5 the English which can lay on the ELMO. The report goes on to identify the

6 numbers in work units. The work unit of the 4th Company is set at

7 35 members; 3rd Company, 40 members; 1st Company, 29 members -- men; total

8 number in the 1st Battalion's work platoon's 104. There's a passage then

9 about Veceriska and it says this: "These work platoons were approved for

10 the Vitez Brigade and placed within their competence in terms of use."

11 Does that mean, in short, that Cerkez was in charge of these work

12 platoons? Just yes or no.

13 A. The fact is that there were work platoons that were under the

14 defence office, but there were also work platoons that were established in

15 villages and in the immediate vicinity of the front line that were under

16 the competency of the Vitez Brigade.

17 Q. And those were under Cerkez?

18 A. Well, he, as the commander of the Vitez Brigade. Well, yes, one

19 could say so.

20 Q. Thank you. Bottom of the page in English. In your version,

21 madam, second to last paragraph, inset beginning " U pojedinim," I think.

22 And that paragraph reads: "Some jobs being done by men fit for military

23 service could be done better by engaging the work units and using these

24 people in such tasks instead, and we feel that this way far better results

25 could be achieved on the defence lines. Mario Rajic, Ivo Sucic, and

1 Gordana Badrov, members of the Vitez Brigade command, have been informed

2 of all these problems."

3 Were you in charge or in some way dealing directly with the

4 disposal of these work -- compulsory work units, Ms. Badrov?

5 A. Listen, I was in charge of personnel assignments within the

6 brigade. If the defence line would fall somewhere and if the commander of

7 that front line would address me and seek extra persons for trenches then

8 we would provide people from the reserve for trench digging.

9 Q. Thank you. And last line --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: The work platoons were comprised of Croats,

11 Muslims, and Romanies. Does the witness have any information about the

12 relative membership of these work platoons? What I mean is how many

13 Muslims would you find in one as against Croats and Romanies?

14 A. If we look at all the work platoons together, all that were

15 engaged in the territory of the municipality of Vitez, it is certain that

16 the majority were Croats.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

18 MR. NICE:

19 Q. Where's that recorded in anyplace, please, Ms. Badrov, the number

20 of Croats as opposed to Muslims and Romanies working on these work

21 platoons? Where is it recorded, please?

22 A. Well, there were lists of work platoons. Well, I don't know where

23 this could be found now, perhaps in the archives, but lists of work

24 platoons did exist. I am indeed certain that the majority of their

25 members were Croats.

1 Q. What about between the 16th of April and the 30th of April, the

2 height of the fighting? What about then, that initial part of the

3 fighting? It wasn't Croats then, was it? That was Muslims, wasn't it?

4 A. From the 16th and during those first days to the 20 something,

5 please don't ask me about that because, believe me, I don't know about

6 that.

7 Q. Let's just stay with this document. Last line of the last

8 substantial paragraph reads as follows in relation to one platoon, and

9 it's on the last page of your version, Ms. Badrov: "Some members of the

10 second group were maltreated and beaten by some of the soldiers which can

11 be backed up by the statements of the work unit commander." Is that a

12 common occurrence, that these work platoon members suffered maltreatment

13 at the hands of the soldiers?

14 A. Could you please tell me specifically which part this is exactly?

15 I am so sorry. I didn't manage to follow.

16 Q. Very well. Last page, second to last paragraph. That's the last

17 substantial paragraph, and it's dealing with -- perhaps I should read the

18 whole paragraph: "It should be noted that according to the comments from

19 the men in the work units" -- have you found the place? You've found the

20 place? Yes, you have.

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. "Certain problems occurred on the said tasks. After the men had

23 been received, one part of them was immediately put to work while the

24 other group was taken on in good time but not immediately put to work.

25 They were put to work only 24 hours later due to poor organisation. Some

1 members of the second group were maltreated and beaten by some of the

2 soldiers, which can be backed by the statement of the work unit

3 commander."

4 You were disposing of these or making allocations of these men.

5 You were in the office. Was that something that happened, the soldiers

6 maltreated the compulsory work workers?

7 A. I did not say that I was assigning persons to all work platoons,

8 that is number one. Number two, it would happen that sometimes people

9 were maltreated. Well, we say that people on this line did not offer them

10 lunch like to all other soldiers. I mean, we tried to correct even things

11 like that. There were these minor -- yes. There were some excessive

12 incidents, but we cannot say generally that that was the principle of

13 work.

14 Q. To pick up on His Honour Judge Robinson's question to you a few

15 minutes ago, a brief consideration of an existing exhibit, 1208, please.

16 By this stage of the year, which is August, I think, is it?

17 September of 1993, we see an instruction or something. Deliver to the

18 chief of Vitez and Novi Travnik Defence offices various other people.

19 Then if we go down, the order. "All men liable for military service and

20 engaged in obligatory work at the SPS are put at the disposal of Stjepan

21 Tomasevic and Vitez Brigades. Only those men liable for military service

22 engaged in security at SPS will remain at their obligatory work

23 assignments."

24 Now, did that increase the stock, as it were, of Croat men

25 available for compulsory work? Because, of course, these men working at

1 the SPS factory were almost all Croats by September of 1993, weren't

2 they?

3 A. Sir, as far as I can see looking at this document very quickly,

4 this has nothing to do with work platoons. This is persons of military

5 age that are subjected to mobilisation. Throughout the war, we tried to

6 include, engage military-aged, able-bodied men as soldiers within the

7 brigade, whereas all people who were not able-bodied, we wanted to engage

8 them for work obligations. That is to say, matters of lesser importance,

9 and I think that this order was aimed in that direction.

10 Q. I see. So you were dealing with the disposal of forces. Just

11 look at the bottom of the page then, please. "Colonel Dario Kordic."

12 What did he have to do with all of this?

13 A. Could you tell me where it says "Colonel Dario Kordic"?

14 Q. At the bottom. Agreed?

15 A. Yes. Yes. On the other page you mean. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. What does he have to do with all this?

17 A. Well, listen. Mr. Dario Kordic, as far as I know -- believe me, I

18 was not involved in politics, actually. I was not a member of the party.

19 I know that he was one of the key persons in the HDZ, but which particular

20 post he held, I really cannot say. I know that he belonged to the

21 civilian structures, and Mr. Ignac Kostroman, as far as I know; and Anto

22 Valenta; and Anto Puljic, who was in charge of the administration, all of

23 these persons were outside the military. Right?

24 Q. I see. Very well then. Perhaps you'll just tell us about this:

25 The Vitez Defence office fell under the command of Cerkez, didn't it,

1 later in 1993 on this very day, I think?

2 A. Sir, the Vitez defence office fell under the authority of the

3 civilian government, that is to say, that it belonged to the defence

4 administration of Travnik. That was the institution who was its immediate

5 superior.

6 In 1993 for a brief period of time, it did not have anyone at its

7 helm because the man in charge was replaced, the one who was in charge of

8 the defence office, and then attempts were made to put this office under

9 the Vitez Brigade, that is not to say that this office was under the Vitez

10 Brigade. I think I already explained this earlier on and that I don't

11 have to go into all of that once again.

12 Q. Let's look at the next document, please, 1209. This is the same

13 date. If we look at the order, if you'd just go down to the body of the

14 document. "Duties stipulated in Article 14 of the decree on armed forces

15 are transferred to the Vitez Viteska Brigade, officials of the Vitez

16 defence office will immediately contact the Viteska Brigade commander who

17 is to assign them to the first defence line in the brigade zone of

18 responsibility. Agreed, Colonel Dario Kordic, head of the forward command

19 post of the office of the president."

20 Would you say this had anything to do with the military,

21 Ms. Badrov, this placing of the defence office under the Viteska Brigade?

22 Anything to do with the military?

23 A. By the very fact that the defence office is not a military

24 institution, it is quite logical that the civilian part was in charge of

25 abolishing this institution, an institution like the defence office. How

1 do I read this order? Yes, indeed, it has been written but it was never

2 actually put into practice on the ground, as far as I know.

3 Q. Ms. Badrov, it's quite simple. You know you are here to try and

4 minimise, amongst other things, Mr. Kordic's role as a military person?

5 MR. SAYERS: I must object to this. This is beyond the scope of

6 the --

7 JUDGE MAY: I agree. Let's get on, can we, and finish this

8 witness.

9 MR. NICE: I haven't got many more questions to ask.

10 Q. Can we just have a look at that document once more, please. Are

11 you really telling us, Ms. Badrov, that placing someone under the Viteska

12 Brigade, placing your defence office under the Viteska Brigade was saying

13 that's an entirely civilian activity. Is that what you're saying?

14 A. First of all, the defence office is not mine. What do you mean by

15 that? I have been saying all along that the defence office did not belong

16 to the Vitez Brigade. Yes, there were attempts like this order. It is

17 true that the person who was at the helm of the defence office was

18 replaced; however, the officials of the defence office remained in this

19 defence office. They continued working.

20 The fact remains that we cooperated closely and that attempts were

21 made to put it under the Vitez Brigade. However, within a very short

22 period of time, we actually managed to convince the people who were in

23 charge that the command of the Vitez Brigade cannot take under its command

24 the office of defence which is an institution that is quite independent of

25 the military, that that simply was inappropriate.

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1 In a very short period of time, a new person was found to be at

2 the helm of this institution and this institution continued to operate.

3 MR. NICE: Your honour, I shan't develop that. The matter is

4 dealt with, and I think it's on the 30th of October that there was a

5 transfer back.

6 Q. One last question on the defence office and your work before I

7 look at a few documents that you've touched on, and that's all I have to

8 deal with. From time to time, people wanted the opportunity to leave

9 Bosnia and go and live elsewhere for one reason or another, didn't they?

10 A. Well, I suppose so, yes.

11 Q. Well, they'd need various permissions to go and do that. They'd

12 be dealt with by Mr. Cerkez. Did you know anything about that?

13 A. What I know is that there was a period of time in 1994 when one

14 had to apply for permits.

15 Q. To save time, I'm going to stop you there. In the autumn of 1993,

16 did you know a family Milosevic?

17 A. Family Milosevic? If you mean the family of the late Slavko

18 Milosevic, yes.

19 Q. Now, did you have anything to do with the circumstance in which

20 that family was allowed to leave Bosnia?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Very well. Perhaps you'd just look at this document, please,

23 1248.1. If you look at the foot of the letter, you'll see Mr. Cerkez's

24 signature. If you look at the body of the letter on the ELMO, it's the

25 15th of October, it seeks assistance to the children of Slavko Milosevic

1 with a view to providing them -- providing for them. It sets out their

2 history in the next paragraph. It sets out the courage of one of their

3 members. It concludes with the request for particular assistance in

4 dealing with this family to go and live in Split.

5 Now, you remember the details of this. Can you help us, please,

6 with why this work in your office is addressed to Colonel Dario Kordic

7 personally?

8 MR. SAYERS: Once again, same objection.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes, I agree. It does go outside the evidence in

10 chief.

11 MR. NICE: On that ground then, I'll deal with it with another

12 witness next week.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

14 MR. NICE: Those documents can come back, please.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, return those.

16 MR. NICE: Yes, they can be dealt with next week.

17 Q. Let's just deal with the lists, shall we, Ms. Badrov, that you

18 were asked to look at in great detail yesterday. You say the defence

19 office was closed or closed down after the conflict. The defence office

20 remained in existence in various buildings in Vitez because you were

21 present when it was searched on the 23rd of September of 1998 under search

22 warrant.

23 A. Now, you asked me quite a lot of things, and I will give you the

24 answer to the second part of the question. Yes, I was present. That is,

25 I was in my office in the Travnik defence administration during the search

1 of the offices.

2 Q. Yes. Now, the lists. You were asked to look first at one large

3 volume. I'm not going to take you to that again. The lists that you were

4 asked to look at there which the Chamber may recall have been either

5 produced through Defence witnesses, through one or two individuals or

6 mostly from that search. The list you looked at there, madam, you accept

7 are entirely genuine lists prepared by the HVO in the relevant periods.

8 Yes?

9 A. Lists that I saw today, yes, I believe they were lists of men for

10 supplementary wages, that is, shares.

11 Q. The lists were yesterday, in fact, but you see you've been --

12 various things said about various names on various lists, but you're not

13 suggesting that there is any better lists than the lists that have been

14 produced going to show who were recorded as members of the Vitez Brigade.

15 These lists are the relevant lists for that time.

16 A. That depends why they were compiled, and when you say relevant,

17 whether they mean true engagement of men then that is not correct.

18 Q. Well, they haven't been relied on by the Prosecution as to show

19 that at all and, therefore, I'm going to pass from them. They are just

20 simply lists that happen to be there. When we come to the next file of

21 documents that you were asked to look at rather more shortly, perhaps you

22 can have that file if Mr. Kovacic can make it available. Perhaps he was

23 using his own or perhaps it was the Court's one. 2813.2, the Carry Spork

24 binders, yes, and I know the witness was looking at one yesterday and I

25 think Mr. Kovacic had provided it but I might be wrong.

1 MR. KOVACIC: I'm not sure which one you meant. They are all in

2 the evidence, also your papers.

3 JUDGE MAY: Through the Court, please, if you --

4 MR. KOVACIC: No. No. It's not a matter of courtesy.

5 JUDGE MAY: No. No. If you're addressing, don't talk to counsel

6 across the court what is 2813.2.

7 MR. NICE: It's the second volume of Carry Spork materials that

8 the witness was looking at yesterday afternoon and I think this morning.

9 It's 2318.2, and the Chamber will recall that she had the whole document

10 out and occasionally -- we were occasionally putting items on the ELMO.

11 Q. Now, if we can go here very quickly to -- let's first of all go to

12 Marko Lujic. There it is, number 34. Just look at that, please. Now,

13 this document, while it's being found, was actually found in the very

14 building where you work, the office of the defence administration of the

15 municipality of Travnik. It was on the ground floor of that building, you

16 see? And if we put it on the ELMO just to remind the Court what it looks

17 like in the English. No, not that one, the certificate. The

18 recommendation for -- it's 2480.2A. Here, take mine.

19 Where this speaks -- this is a document in your very own office.

20 Where it speaks of someone with his date of birth the 12th of September,

21 1949, his name as Marko Lujic, son of Marko, and his nationality and sets

22 out his being in the reserve since the 16th of April 1993 and joining the

23 HR HB in March 1992, and sets out the details of his education. When we

24 go to the second page, and where it says under 8B member of the army of

25 the Republic of Croatia and then logistics support in 1992 and then it

1 says carried out the same duties in the area of Vitez municipality in

2 Central Bosnia as a member of the HVO from March 1992 to the 16th of April

3 1993 and where it says member of Vitez brigade units working on missile

4 systems from the 16th of April to the 1st of August, this is your records,

5 is there any reason to doubt them?

6 A. I am sorry, but if you think this is my document, you're wrong.

7 This is not my document. I grant it that you perhaps could have found it

8 in my office for the simple reason that the institution for which I worked

9 at the time and still work, and that is the Travnik defence

10 administration, were just one in a series of institutions responsible for

11 the nomination of people for ranks. The Vitez defence office put together

12 this document, forwarded it to us as a higher instance institution for

13 consideration, and we would then forward it to the Ministry of Defence so

14 that --

15 Q. Ms. Badrov, yes. First of all, just to correct you, you're

16 misunderstanding and it's entirely my fault. I wasn't suggesting this was

17 found actually in your office, it was in the same building in which you

18 were. It's part of your general office. You've been brought here to

19 comment on these documents --

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. -- and have gone through a number of them, and I'm dealing with it

22 very briefly because I don't need to spend long. This is a document found

23 in your office. Is there any reason to doubt its -- I mean your general

24 office. Is there any reason to doubt its generally accuracy? Surely

25 records being kept by the defence office were being kept for a purpose and

1 were being kept accurately.

2 A. Such documents are drawn up so that somebody could be promoted to

3 a higher rank. If possible, people will embellish their effort, if you

4 know what I mean. Therefore, this document was indeed drawn up by the

5 Defence office with all this information that you can find here.

6 Q. Thank you very much. So --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Nice, please.

8 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

9 Q. There's no reason to doubt that this person was a member of the

10 Viteska Brigade, none at all?

11 A. Insofar as that is concerned, I think that this gentleman was

12 never a member of the Vitez Brigade.

13 Q. Madam, that's exactly what I've been asking you about. The

14 document says he was. Now, why on earth should you be keeping documents

15 that record information incorrectly?

16 A. Sir, we had heaps of documents, doctored documents with all sorts

17 of information. And if you find five documents about one person, you

18 would surely --

19 JUDGE MAY: That's enough. We're really going on and going around

20 in circle.

21 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour--

22 JUDGE MAY: The document speaks for itself. Could I have the

23 reference?

24 MR. NICE: Yes, certainly. The reference to the binder generally

25 is 2813.2. The particular document is 2480.2. And I'll conclude what I

1 have to say about these documents because in light of the witness's

2 answers, which of course I don't accept, the Chamber will probably recall

3 in the analysis of material through the Spork binders that the lists

4 weren't relied on save for the fact that they gave names. It's this

5 volume of documents which contained an analysis of the certificates of

6 wounding and other documents all found in the locations described which

7 were relied upon.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, of course.

9 MR. NICE: And that's it.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now -- and of course, Marko Ljubic is an

11 important figure.

12 MR. NICE: Yes.

13 JUDGE MAY: There are no features in the evidence.

14 MR. NICE: Yes.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. But give me the binder number again. I haven't

16 got the reference.

17 MR. NICE: Two --

18 JUDGE MAY: It's 2813.2.

19 MR. NICE: 2813.2 is the binder and the particular document is

20 2480.2.

21 In light of what the witness is saying, I'm not going to take this

22 any further.

23 JUDGE MAY: No. I don't think there's any point.

24 MR. NICE: And I've only -- my duties under the rules, I think,

25 oblige me to ask maybe one, two, three -- I've received two more

1 affidavits today relating to this witness. I don't know whether I'll be

2 able to deal with those.

3 Q. I want simple answers to these question, please, madam. Do you

4 know personally Sladjana Blaz?

5 A. Sladjana Blaz. Could be, but I'm not sure.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 A. I cannot place her really.

8 Q. Do you know Ivica Sakic?

9 A. Ivica Sakic? Depends. Do you have anything else to identify

10 him? Where was he born? Who is he? What is he? Where was he born?

11 Q. I can try and find you that. Father's name Jozo, a locksmith of

12 Travnik, born in 1956.

13 A. No, I don't know.

14 Q. Do you know personally Franjo Alilovic, son of Drago, a production

15 organiser of Vitez?

16 A. Can't remember.

17 Q. Do you know personally Ivan Azinovic, son of Jozo, occupation

18 again locksmith or welder, born in Sarajevo, living in Kulina Bana Street,

19 and born in 1946? Oh. There's an objection.

20 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, if I may object on that. It is the --

21 the Prosecutor could use that as an argument when there will be an

22 argument on the affidavits. We only established during the direct

23 examination of this witness that there were categories, certain categories

24 of people included in the listing, so-called list for the certificates.

25 The witness never said anything about those particular names or persons.

1 JUDGE MAY: Who are these people?

2 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I think the objection is wholly

3 inappropriate.

4 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter. Who are the people?

5 MR. NICE: These are the people on the various affidavits.

6 JUDGE MAY: These are the affiants?

7 MR. NICE: These are the affiants. And I just need to know if the

8 witness knows them.

9 JUDGE MAY: What can the possible objection be?

10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] If I may say something, I will

11 explain it to you, if I have your leave. As we read Rule 94 ter, it says

12 that a statement under oath is to corroborate the statement. The present

13 witness here said when she spoke about the list that it includes all sorts

14 of categories of people who cannot be included in that list if it comes to

15 the list of the brigade members, and she also said there are here people

16 who were under work obligation in various companies, nurses, women who

17 offered a glass of water to men in the trenches and the like.

18 Therefore --

19 JUDGE MAY: What is the objection to counsel asking the witness

20 "Do you know these people?" What is the objection to that?

21 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I think it is irrelevant, because

22 the Prosecutor is trying to argue the value of the affidavits, and we

23 shall be discussing it within seven days under the Rule 94 ter rather than

24 with the Witness.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... when the

1 question of the admissibility of the affidavits arise.

2 MR. KOVACIC: Certainly I will, Your Honour, and doing that if

3 that is a suggestion, but I think it's entirely irrelevant now. We are in

4 about the last half hour of her testimony, and I would like to have some

5 time for redirect. I think it's irrelevant.

6 JUDGE MAY: I agree with that, but counsel is entitled to ask if

7 the witness knows these people. Find out who they are.

8 MR. NICE:

9 Q. I think I've dealt with Ivan Azinovic. The next one is Ankica

10 Dekic. Do you know this person personally? Son --

11 A. Ankica Dekic, yes, I know her personally.

12 Q. Born where, occupation what?

13 A. Ankica Dekic was a nurse at the health centre.

14 Q. I'm sure that's the right one. What war service, if any, did she

15 do?

16 A. Well, she was a nurse. Anything else, anything more specific, I

17 don't know.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 Q. She knows one.

20 JUDGE MAY: She knows one.

21 MR. NICE: She knows one. And I -- not only I'm grateful for Your

22 Honour saying I'm entitled to ask, I think I'm actually obliged to deal

23 with these issues under the Rule, which is why I'm dealing with it. I

24 don't want to spend time on it.

25 Q. Ivana Miskovic. Do you know Ivana Miskovic? That's Father Anto,

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1 a machinist from Travnik.

2 A. No. I'm not sure.

3 Q. Eugen Aman? And this person's father is Josip, a lathe operator

4 from Travnik.

5 A. No. No. I don't recall.

6 Q. And then the two documents that I've been served today. One is

7 from Jakov Maro, who is -- father's name Grgo, retired from Donja

8 Dubravica, born in 1920. Do you know him?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And finally and indeed my last question to you -- just checking,

11 Srecko Ramljak.

12 A. Ramljak what?

13 Q. Srecko probably.

14 A. Oh, Srecko. Srecko Ramljak. Could be -- perhaps I do know him if

15 he comes from Veceriska, yes. Perhaps I do know him.

16 Q. His father's name is Stipo, born in 1939. Do you know anything

17 about him?

18 A. He could be a relative of mine, a very distant one, but nothing

19 more specific.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, we have to adjourn, as I said, at quarter

22 to, so if you can deal with your re-examination by then.

23 MR. KOVACIC: Yes, Your Honour. I will do my best.

24 Re-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

25 Q. I will try to resolve that list so that we don't have to go back

1 to that at all. Ms. Badrov, out of 4.131 persons on this list, how many

2 people do you actually know? Can you give me just a number, 100, 500,

3 1.00, 1.500?

4 A. It is very difficult for me to put a number on it, but it's

5 possible that I know about 1.500 of them, but I cannot match the names and

6 faces. It's very difficult.

7 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher please help us provide

8 a number? Excuse me. I have D57/2. I have it on me, so we may not want

9 to waste time. Just a cover page. Just the front page, please. We don't

10 need the whole document.

11 Q. Ms. Badrov, would you please look -- maybe if we can move the

12 document so that we can see the letterhead and the heading. We were

13 talking about letterheads used in your documents. Is this a type of

14 letterhead that was used by you?

15 A. Yes. Approximately that is what it was. Republic of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, Croatian Defence

17 Council, the chequerboard, and then we would have the Defence office and

18 then there would be the defence administration Travnik. This is what we

19 would add.

20 Q. Very well. That's it. We also handled document Z473.1. Will you

21 please look at the letterhead of that document? I don't know if you still

22 have it with you.

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you see such letterheads also?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. So I believe that we have -- that we have seen at least four

2 different types of letterheads used in your documents here. Can you tell

3 me were there any rules or were there any periods of time when specific

4 letterheads were used?

5 A. We were short of paper, and we used anything to type on, and we

6 had a batch of paper with this type of letterhead and we used that. So we

7 used whatever we had available.

8 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you very much. I think we can remove the

9 document.

10 Q. When asked by my learned colleague, you said that you also

11 prepared a list by Mr. Jozic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In this list, if you can recall at all, were only names listed or

14 other details about individuals such as date and place of birth and so on?

15 A. From what I remember, this document should have looked like this,

16 first name, last name, then I believe the father's name, year of birth,

17 each of these persons were to say whether they wanted to stay in Vitez or

18 transfer to Travnik or Zenica under the auspices of the Red Cross and then

19 sign it next to their name. In other words, when they declared their

20 wishes, then they would have to sign it.

21 Q. Thank you. Now that we mentioned this document, D57/2 which you

22 saw a moment ago, could I now, after all, please ask the registry to put

23 it before the witness again. There were a number of questions about the

24 mobilisation. I believe that this document gives us an opportunity to

25 solve a number of questions in one go.

1 Mrs. Badrov, directing your attention to item 3 on this document,

2 there is one to the note and then paragraph 3, item 3, will you please

3 read to us the first sentence.

4 A. "In the period from 16 April and up to 28 April 1993, a total of

5 498 conscripts were mobilised who actively who were actively included in

6 the HVO units in addition to regular personnel of the Vitez Brigade."

7 Q. Two questions emanating from this, what does the process of

8 mobilisation imply?

9 A. It starts by the defence office send a summons to a conscript, the

10 conscript is then obliged to report to the defence office and then the

11 defence office assigns him, that is informs him to report to such and such

12 a unit.

13 Q. From the way this -- it is phrased in this paragraph, these 500

14 conscripts which were apparently mobilised between 16 and 28 April, did

15 they all necessarily have to have reported to your unit, that is to the

16 Vitez Brigade?

17 A. No. No. What this is in reference to is a total number of

18 mobilised conscripts.

19 Q. Do we know how many of these conscripts actually reported to the

20 Vitez Brigade?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Can you please now turn to the attachment provided with this

23 report at the back pages. Let's say start from the very back page, the

24 last page. There is a heading, "Drivers for the Medical Corps". Were

25 they members of the Vitez Brigade?

1 A. No. I believe that they were assigned to the health centre.

2 Q. Then there is the Vitez PZO, the air defences?

3 A. Yes, those were -- that was an independent unit.

4 Q. Were they under the command of the Vitez Brigade?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Next in Croatian, I believe it says the HVO building security. Do

7 you know who is concerned there?

8 A. These were simply people who were not fit for military service so

9 they were assigned to providing security for certain facilities.

10 Q. Above that is a category called HVO logistics, were they part of

11 the brigade?

12 A. No. The HVO logistics is a very broad term.

13 Q. But if you look at the names, can you recognise any of these names

14 as those who were members of the brigade?

15 A. It is possible that some of them did pass through the brigade, so

16 to speak, but I really cannot tell.

17 Q. The page before that one, there is a heading the next to last

18 group, deployed or assigned in various ways?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you please tell me whether these were people mobilised by

21 the office and sent to the brigade?

22 A. I wouldn't say so. These lists were very poorly compiled. I see

23 Badrov here, so Miran Badrov listed here as 12. Again, he is listed here

24 as assigned in various ways.

25 Q. Does that mean that some names are repeated in various lists?

1 A. Yes, I believe they are.

2 Q. On the basis of what we have just seen, can you say anything about

3 this number of 500, out of this 500, how many actually reported to the

4 brigade?

5 A. I really wouldn't be able to say that.

6 Q. Thank you. Would you agree that, on the basis of these examples,

7 these were not all people?

8 A. What do you mean by this, they were not all?

9 Q. What I'm trying to say is that not all 500 or so men were put at

10 the disposal of the brigade?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You described Boro Jozic as an official, that is he was an

13 assistant to the person in charge of SIS. What is SIS? What does it

14 stand for?

15 A. SIS is an office for internal security within the brigade.

16 Q. I guess they didn't have any administrative staff. Did they have

17 offices in the brigade?

18 A. I believe that later on, they were given an office. He was given

19 an office, but I think it was at the very end, just before he died.

20 Q. Can you orient yourself in time? How long did Mr. Jozic work in

21 this body that was in charge of exchanges, a month or two?

22 A. I believe it was shortly after the start of the war he was

23 appointed to that position and he stayed there until he died.

24 Q. Can you tell us, if you recall, if you ever had an opportunity to

25 see whether he, during that period, also carried out his regular duties,

1 the duties that were originally assigned to him?

2 A. I really don't know. I believe that he was very busy as an

3 official working on behalf of the HVO.

4 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

5 document 473.1.

6 Q. Taking into account the time, you said that you were not -- that

7 you had no knowledge of this time because you were -- at this time you

8 were not in the brigade?

9 A. Yes. In February I was not in the brigade.

10 Q. Will you please help us interpret this document, that's the sole

11 purpose of this exercise. In the preamble and the first paragraph, who is

12 ordering what to whom? Is it correct that Marijan Skopljak is ordering

13 something to the ABiH?

14 A. Believe me that this is not clear to me, but there is something

15 saying that on -- pursuant to a joint order of the commander of the HVO

16 Central Bosnia Operative Zone and the commander of the 3rd Corps of the

17 ABiH, he is issuing an order for withdrawal of units from lines of

18 contact.

19 Q. What lines of contact? You don't know?

20 A. No, I don't know.

21 Q. Thank you very much. Maybe a follow up question on this document

22 because we had a question about it. It says to return to the barracks.

23 Can you tell me, did the ABiH have barracks? Did they have troops which

24 were billeted in barracks at the time when you arrived there?

25 A. From my -- from what I know, no, they did not.

1 Q. So ABiH did not have any barracks in Vitez?

2 A. In early 1993, no.

3 Q. How about in other cities, Zenica?

4 A. I believe that they did have something in Zenica.

5 Q. How about Travnik?

6 A. I believe they had one in Travnik too.

7 Q. And did HVO have any barracks in Central Bosnia?

8 A. I really don't know.

9 Q. Had they been -- had there been any in the Vitez municipality,

10 would you have known about them?

11 A. In Vitez municipality, of course I would have.

12 Q. If we look at this order we dealt with paragraph 1, what about

13 paragraph 2? Who should be returning or withdrawing units?

14 A. It seems to me that he is ordering both sides here.

15 Q. Can you please tell me now, in the local culture, including in

16 Bosnia, if somebody were to receive a document which has not been

17 stamped --

18 A. They would not have been considered.

19 Q. You were also asked something regarding your position with the

20 Territorial Defence, that was in the months of May and June of 1992. Did

21 at that time exist an organisation which was an HVO or HZ HB organisation

22 which dealt with the defence?

23 A. At that time in 1992, I was with the Territorial Defence, and I

24 really don't know in what way the HVO operated at that time.

25 Q. Thank you. You were also shown the document Z653 which is a

1 breakdown by villages, do you know what I'm referring to? Is that

2 something that lists Nadioci 20 and so on?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You said that at one point your brother, as one of the shift

5 soldiers, went to the front line facing the JNA, that is the BSA; is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, it's now quarter to and we have to

9 adjourn. You'll have to continue with your examination tomorrow morning.

10 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour, I will be quite short

11 tomorrow morning.

12 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

13 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, if you are closing, could I just -- we

14 are thinking about, since we are late -- obviously this witness took

15 longer than anybody predicted. We are thinking about to give up the

16 following witness so we have tomorrow better time for all needed arguments

17 and then to devote the rest of the week to preparation of Defence of

18 Mr. Cerkez, namely the documents for next week.

19 JUDGE MAY: Well, you are under no obligation at all, you must

20 understand, to give any witnesses up that you wish to call, far from it.

21 If you wish to call a witness, of course you must be able to do so. So if

22 you don't call the witness, it will be entirely a matter for you. The

23 matters which we have to deal with tomorrow which come to mind are the

24 Morsink statement, any matters arising out of Mr. Cerkez's evidence, some

25 matters which Mr. Sayers has raised in a letter which I have seen. I

1 don't know if the Prosecution can deal with the affidavits tomorrow. If

2 it can, so much the better.

3 MR. NICE: I'm sure we can deal with those.

4 JUDGE MAY: They all seem to be on the same point. I don't know

5 if there are any other matters.

6 MR. NICE: No, not for tomorrow. The witness is still here,

7 perhaps the witness could just withdraw and there is one other

8 administrative matter relating to -- it will only take literally 30

9 seconds.

10 JUDGE MAY: Mrs. Badrov, would you like to go, please, and be back

11 to conclude your evidence tomorrow morning at half past nine.

12 [Witness stands down]

13 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, just while the witness is leaving, I

14 ask not for approval of the witness schedule but just because of

15 scheduling, I was probably not precise enough since it looks like we could

16 be able to do what it is required during the morning tomorrow morning, and

17 then I still have some time to work on documents.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I don't anticipate these administrative matters

19 are going to take very long. There seem to be quite a number of them but

20 none of them are very lengthy.

21 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I have two envelopes for the Defence

22 containing transcripts -- I probably needn't even go into closed session

23 -- in each case containing transcripts in B/C/S. They are not complete.

24 I think they are half of the product, but Mr. Naumovski explained to me

25 that, of course, he would want two copies, not just one. One for his

1 client and one for himself to read in B/C/S, and I immediately saw the

2 sense of that.

3 I don't know what arrangements have to be made as to the security

4 of written documents at the unit, but I think I am content to hand over

5 two copies each. They are watermarked as Defence copies. They aren't

6 watermarked with individual names on the basis that everybody is bound by

7 the original protective measures and it will perhaps be up to the

8 defendants with their counsel and/or by liaison with the authorities to

9 ensure that they are in a position to honour the protective measures order

10 as it applies to those transcripts.

11 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now until half past nine

12 tomorrow.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.50 p.m., to

14 be reconvened on Thursday, the 12^th day of October,

15 2000, at 9.30 a.m.

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