Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1695

          1                 Thursday, 29th April, 1999

          2                 (Open session)

          3                 (The accused entered court)

          4                 --- Upon commencing at 9.45 a.m.

          5            THE REGISTRAR: (In French) Case number

          6  IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor versus Dario Kordic and

          7  Mario Cerkez.

          8            JUDGE MAY:  We don't seem to be getting any

          9  English translation, but, Mr. Nice, if you would like

         10  to start?

         11            MR. NICE:  I expect it will come.

         12                 WITNESS:  EDIB ZLOTRG (Resumed)

         13                 Examined by Mr. Nice:

         14                 [Witness answers through interpreter]

         15       Q.   Mr. Zlotrg, just a few outstanding matters

         16  for one other occasion you can tell us about at some

         17  stage, and you may have to help us with the date,

         18  involving a cafe and some HVO soldiers, when you were

         19  at the cafe in the course of work?

         20       A.   Yes.  I think this was on the 18th of May,

         21  1992.  As I was going back from work, I noticed some

         22  members of the reserve police force in front of a cafe

         23  that was owned by Gojko Cickovic.  I walked up to my

         24  colleague and asked him whether he needed any help, and

         25  I wanted to ask him what it was all about.  He said

Page 1696

          1  that no help was needed and that I should leave.

          2            From there, I went to my brother's, that is

          3  to say, my brother who was killed on the 16th of April,

          4  I went to his apartment.  After some time, members of

          5  the HVO rang the doorbell at my brother's apartment.

          6  My brother and I went out, and we saw Mr. Mario Cerkez

          7  there accompanied by three soldiers of the Croatian

          8  Defence Council.  They were armed with automatic

          9  rifles.  One of them had a machine gun, and he pointed

         10  it at my stomach.  I moved the barrel away and I asked

         11  Mario what all of this was supposed to mean.  "I'm a

         12  member of the police force, and it is I and my

         13  colleagues who can come to somebody's door, not members

         14  of the Croatian Defence Council."  I also draw his

         15  attention to the fact that he shouldn't do that any

         16  more.  He said, approximately, that he would come to

         17  the door whenever he wanted to and, if necessary, he

         18  would bring a company of members of the Croatian

         19  Defence Council and that nobody could prevent him from

         20  doing so.

         21            He just told me not to talk to members of the

         22  Croatian Defence Council any more, and I told him that

         23  this was a policeman who should not be under his

         24  command.  However -- well, this is the way I understood

         25  him, that I had nothing to talk to Croats about.

Page 1697

          1            Later on I found out that a group from the

          2  reserve police force from the reserve police station

          3  that was in Bila and which was commanded by Ivan

          4  Budimir and their zone of responsibility was

          5  supposed -- or, rather, they were supposed to protect

          6  law and order in the villages around Stara Bila in

          7  keeping with the set-up of the Vitez police station,

          8  that is to say, Mosunj, Veliki Mosunj, Sadovace,

          9  Grbavica and that part; they had nothing to do in

         10  town.  However, Ivan Budimir gave these people as

         11  assistants to Mario Cerkez.  On that occasion, they

         12  expelled Dragan Cickovic who was running that cafe, and

         13  they simply took the cafe for the needs of the Croatian

         14  Defence Council.

         15            Dragan later told me that Mario had told him

         16  that the cafe was being taken away for the needs of the

         17  Croatian Defence Council, that is to say, for the

         18  families of the members from Mosunj who were killed.

         19  They did not make an inventory of all the goods that

         20  were in the cafe on that occasion nor did they issue

         21  any kind of certificate.  They simply ordered Dragan to

         22  leave the premises, and they handed this establishment

         23  to Tomic Zoka, I think his name was, and he was wearing

         24  civilian clothes.

         25       Q.   Did that cafe then remain in the possession

Page 1698

          1  of a particular group or party thereafter?

          2       A.   After that, in the cafe, members of the

          3  Croatian Defence Council in uniform would meet at the

          4  cafe, and as far as I know, until the conflict broke

          5  out, it was owned by the Croatian Defence Council.

          6       Q.   Thank you very much.  Was that the only

          7  example of Croat properties being -- I beg your

          8  pardon -- Muslim properties being occupied by Croats,

          9  or were there others?

         10       A.   That is not the only example.

         11       Q.   What sort of number of others were there, to

         12  your knowledge?

         13       A.   I think that when I was presenting this

         14  general overview and when I mentioned that they were

         15  taking our vehicles away, they mostly blew up cafes

         16  rather than taking them away, and after all, this cafe

         17  that they took was not owned by a Muslim but it was

         18  owned by a Serb.  I talked about it just now.

         19       Q.   At the end of the time, in 1993, how many

         20  Muslims remained in Vitez then, if you can express it

         21  in any terms or in percentage terms?

         22       A.   When I fled from Vitez on the 16th of May, I

         23  think that 50 or 60 per cent remained in Vitez;

         24  however, by the end of 1993, I believe that there

         25  weren't even 10 per cent in Vitez.  All the rest were

Page 1699

          1  expelled or ...

          2       Q.   Thank you.  While you were still there --

          3       A.   ... killed.

          4       Q.   Thank you.  While you were still there, was

          5  there aid, food aid in particular, coming through or to

          6  Vitez?

          7       A.   While I was in custody, my wife said that on

          8  several occasions they brought food in front of the

          9  entrance and they only distributed food to Croats and

         10  Serbs.  At that time, the three children of my brother

         11  who was killed together with his wife, they came over

         12  to stay with me at my apartment together with their

         13  grandmother, so there was five of them, and then these

         14  neighbours asked to have some food given to the

         15  children because there were so many children there.

         16  However, the Croat who was doing this said that there

         17  was nothing for the balijas.

         18       Q.   You told us one or two incidents of what

         19  happened to you when you were doing your work as a

         20  police officer.  Just in a sentence, when you were

         21  doing your work as a police officer, how were you

         22  treated generally when you went to the scenes of crimes

         23  and so on?

         24       A.   If an offence was committed on territory that

         25  went beyond Stari Vitez and if we had to go through

Page 1700

          1  territory that was under HVO control, until I would

          2  reach the scene, I would -- or not only myself but the

          3  entire investigating team would be taken out of our

          4  vehicles, we would be searched, we would have to put

          5  our hands up, and then they would search the vehicle

          6  too and then they would let us go.

          7            At one point in time, or, actually, when we

          8  were involved in one particular investigation, when one

          9  of our men stepped on a mine between Tolovici and, I

         10  think, Krcevine or Preocica, we agreed with our

         11  colleagues from the police station that we could pass.

         12  We passed one checkpoint because we persuaded them to

         13  let us go.  The other checkpoint, which was 100 metres

         14  away from the first one and you can see it, the guards

         15  from the other checkpoint saw us pass the first

         16  checkpoint; however, the guard again made us leave the

         17  vehicle, went to headquarters to see whether we could

         18  pass, and he returned later and he said that we should

         19  go back, that he cannot let us go to the scene to

         20  investigate.  And that's the way it was every day.

         21       Q.   Thank you.  I should have asked you this

         22  earlier:  Were you yourself active in politics at all,

         23  active in the SDA or in any other way?

         24       A.   No.

         25       Q.   I should also have asked you to deal with

Page 1701

          1  telephones.  You told us somebody came and took your

          2  telephone before the time when you were finally

          3  arrested.  Was that seizing of telephones unique to

          4  you, or did it happen to others, to your knowledge?

          5       A.   No, they took the telephones of all Muslims,

          6  and then when they would leave the building, they would

          7  throw the telephones on the concrete and break them.

          8       Q.   So although telephones were taken, were you

          9  still able to watch the television?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   The man, Anto Valenta, you made reference to

         12  him yesterday and to his book.  Did you know him at

         13  all?

         14       A.   Yes.

         15       Q.   What were his expressed views on things?

         16       A.   Well, you can see that from the book too.  He

         17  changed the boundaries of municipalities on the

         18  territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He proposed humane

         19  resettlements.  He simply annexed to one municipality

         20  villages with a Croat population so that he would

         21  create or, rather, not create but he actually wanted to

         22  have an imbalance between the Croats and the Muslims,

         23  one that would be in favour of the Croats.  At press

         24  conferences that were held in Busovaca, he said that in

         25  public on several occasions, and he showed us maps of

Page 1702

          1  Travnik and explained them.

          2       Q.   What was his position in the HDZ at the time;

          3  do you know?

          4       A.   He was a high political official.  I don't

          5  know exactly what he was, but I know that he was in the

          6  top echelons in the HDZ.

          7       Q.   You have told us about Stari Vitez itself and

          8  you have also used the word "Mahala."  "Mahala" I think

          9  turns up in relation to a number of towns or villages.

         10  Can you just explain the position and, in particular,

         11  the ethnic composition of Stari Vitez and whether the

         12  name "Mahala" has any general significance for the

         13  Tribunal?

         14       A.   "Mahala" is a Turkish word that relates to a

         15  particular section of town, and in Stari Vitez, the

         16  majority population was Muslim.  However, I should also

         17  like to add that our Croat neighbours who did not want

         18  to be exchanged spent the entire war in Stari Vitez.

         19  They were treated like everyone else.  That was the

         20  Pavlovic family, then the Mioc family and, I don't

         21  know, some other families too.

         22       Q.   Thank you.  The mosque in Stari Vitez, what

         23  happened to that and when?  You have touched on this

         24  already.

         25       A.   In '92, at a joint meeting, rather, on a

Page 1703

          1  mission where Pero Skopljak was and a priest, I don't

          2  know his name, on one side, and on the other side was

          3  Mr. Munib Kajmovic and Omer Mestrovac, the hodza of

          4  Vitez.  Then Pero Skopljak said publicly that he had

          5  ordered the shelling of the minaret of the Vitez mosque

          6  because, allegedly, that is what he said, there was a

          7  sniper that was operating from up there, and then, on

          8  several occasions, the hodza of Vitez swore that there

          9  were no snipers on top of the minaret and then Pero

         10  Skopljak told him that he was lying, something to that

         11  effect, and I know that Jurcevic, called Butur, was

         12  shooting from elsewhere.

         13       Q.   Was it possible thereafter to pray publicly

         14  for Muslims or not; what was the position?

         15       A.   The mosque was in Stari Vitez, that is to

         16  say, that it was possible, but then how risky this was,

         17  that's another matter.

         18       Q.   The man, Bralo, of whom you spoke yesterday,

         19  did he make some particular boast of what he had done

         20  on one occasion?

         21       A.   Yes.  When we were digging trenches, when

         22  they brought us to dig trenches, he said that he was

         23  involved in a competition in killing.

         24       Q.   Did he give one detail of a particular

         25  killing he had engaged in, he had done?

Page 1704

          1       A.   Yes.  He said that the hajji who had built

          2  the mosque in the lower part of Ahmici, that he

          3  had crucified him like Jesus, and that when he

          4  crucified him, he put nails into his hands and his

          5  feet.

          6       Q.   Did he say where he had done that?

          7       A.   I can't remember, but it was on the door of

          8  some place.  I don't know whether it was on the door of

          9  the mosque or the door of a house.  I really can't

         10  remember now.

         11       Q.   Were you aware of any particular paramilitary

         12  groups in or around Vitez?

         13       A.   I was not aware of paramilitary groups

         14  because all units were under the control, the Jokers

         15  and everybody were.

         16       Q.   Under the control of whom?

         17       A.   The Croatian Defence Council.

         18            MR. NICE:  Thank you very much.  That's all I

         19  ask.

         20            JUDGE MAY:  Who is to cross-examine?

         21            MR. STEIN:  We would like to start over here

         22  with co-counsel first.

         23            JUDGE MAY:  I trust that means you are

         24  applying to do that because you are changing the usual

         25  order.

Page 1705

          1            MR. STEIN:  Exactly, sir, if you don't mind.

          2            JUDGE MAY:  I take it that the burden of

          3  cross-examination will be on Mr. Kovacic because this

          4  involves Vitez; is that right?  So you will be much

          5  shorter.

          6            MR. STEIN:  In all ways.

          7            MR. KOVACIC:  Thank you, Counsel.  Thank you,

          8  Your Honour.

          9                 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

         10       Q.   Good morning, Mr. Zlotrg.  I am the defence

         11  counsel for Mario Cerkez, and I have a few questions to

         12  put to you.  In view of the breadth of your testimony,

         13  there's going to be quite a bit of it, so I ask you to

         14  be patient.

         15            Yesterday, you said that you started to work

         16  in the Ministry of the Interior in the early '80s, and

         17  then you said that it was actually in 1986; is that

         18  correct?

         19       A.   I don't know exactly, but I think it was in

         20  1986.  After all, this can be found in the archives of

         21  the Ministry of the Interior.  You can check that.

         22       Q.   Then we agree that you started working there

         23  in the mid '80s; is that right?

         24       A.   Yes, that's right.

         25       Q.   What schools did you complete or, rather,

Page 1706

          1  when you started working in the police force, what

          2  schools had you finished?

          3       A.   I worked as a car mechanic.

          4       Q.   In order to work as a car mechanic, what did

          5  you complete?

          6       A.   I completed a secondary school.

          7       Q.   So that was a secondary school?

          8       A.   Yes, it was.

          9       Q.   It was a vocational school?

         10       A.   Yes, it was.

         11       Q.   In your day, it lasted three years?

         12       A.   Yes, three years.

         13       Q.   That is to say, you went to an eight-year

         14  elementary school, a three-year vocational school, and

         15  then you started working in the police force; right?

         16  And in 1986, you got a job at the Ministry of the

         17  Interior for the first time?

         18       A.   Yes.

         19       Q.   If I understand you correctly, it's hard to

         20  define this, but can I say that you were actually in

         21  charge of stocks and other equipment that the Ministry

         22  of the Interior had?

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   Including weapons, ammunition, equipment for

         25  the reserve police force?

Page 1707

          1       A.   The active force too.

          2       Q.   I see.  For the active and reserve police

          3  force.  Thank you.  At the point in time when you

          4  started working at the MUP in Vitez, who was the head

          5  of the MUP?

          6       A.   Hazim Viteskic.

          7       Q.   Hazim Viteskic, he was a Muslim?

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   At that time, for example, the first year,

         10  two or three that you spent working there, do you

         11  remember what the ethnic composition was in the MUP,

         12  that is to say, the ethnic composition of employees?

         13       A.   Well, I could not tell you for sure but it

         14  was quite balanced.

         15       Q.   Did this composition reflect the ethnic

         16  composition or structure of the population of the

         17  municipality of Vitez?

         18       A.   I think so but I'm not a politician.  Before

         19  the conflict, I didn't know what these percentages

         20  were, how many Muslims or how many Croats or how many

         21  Serbs lived in Vitez, so I can't really tell you that.

         22       Q.   All right.  Let me rephrase the question.

         23  May I conclude that you did not feel that things were

         24  different in the police station than they were in

         25  regular life in Vitez?

Page 1708

          1       A.   That's right.

          2       Q.   Were there any serious deviations from that,

          3  you probably would have felt it; right?

          4       A.   I assume so, yes.

          5       Q.   Thank you.  You told us that certain changes

          6  took place in the MUP, that Mr. Pero Skopljak became

          7  head of the MUP, that the commander was changed too,

          8  and now who became the commander?

          9       A.   Saban Mahmutovic.

         10       Q.   He was not commander until before the

         11  elections?

         12       A.   No.  No, Skopljak wasn't head of police

         13  either.

         14       Q.   Please, just give me "Yes" or "No" answers.

         15  I'm going to ask you about that further on.

         16       A.   Yes.

         17       Q.   After the elections, you got two new bosses,

         18  so to speak?

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   Your top boss was the head of the MUP; right?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   The lower boss, so to speak, "a bit lower,"

         23  but we just need to understand each other, was

         24  Mahmutovic; right?

         25       A.   Mahmutovic commanded the uniformed part, that

Page 1709

          1  is to say, the authorised officials, and the head of

          2  MUP had authorised and unauthorised officials under

          3  him, that is to say, that the police is a semi-military

          4  organisation which does have a system of command.

          5       Q.   All right.  So from the point of view of

          6  hierarchy, is it correct, what I said?

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   So Pero Skopljak was top man and --

          9       A.   Below him was the commander.

         10       Q.   All right.  Thank you.  This set-up of the

         11  leading positions, was it rather a result of the key

         12  positions in the municipality after the coalition and

         13  the HDZ had won the elections?

         14       A.   I think so, but I was not a member of any

         15  political party, so I can't give you any answer to that

         16  question.

         17       Q.   You don't have any firsthand knowledge about

         18  this?

         19       A.   Well, that's the way I think it was.

         20       Q.   Who did you replace as logistics officer?

         21       A.   As I said, in 1986, it was Edin Mucic.

         22       Q.   All right.  You told us then that you were

         23  transferred, or you, rather, used the word "replaced,"

         24  as logistics officer and that you were reassigned to

         25  the post of criminology technician?

Page 1710

          1       A.   Yes.

          2       Q.   In the organisation of work at the police

          3  station, in the sense of pay, salary, job descriptions

          4  at the police station, who is better paid?

          5       A.   I think that criminology technicians are.

          6       Q.   So a criminology technician is a person who

          7  has a better position than a logistics officer; right?

          8       A.   Yes, but it requires a lot more time.

          9       Q.   Does it also require more expertise and more

         10  knowledge?

         11       A.   Yes, definitely, because this is a very

         12  specialised job, and you have to focus on certain

         13  activities.

         14       Q.   Let me summarise this.  It is a more complex

         15  job in terms of job description and has a higher

         16  salary, it requires better qualifications, and you're

         17  saying, nevertheless, that you were replaced from the

         18  position of logistics officer?

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   Wasn't it perhaps some kind of a promotion or

         21  perhaps a reassignment?

         22       A.   Well, perhaps it would have been for you, but

         23  I was on the losing end because I could earn far more

         24  by doing second jobs moonlighting than through this

         25  salary, because I was on duty around the clock, seven

Page 1711

          1  days a week, and then I would rest for seven days.

          2       Q.   I didn't understand this, as technician or

          3  what?

          4       A.   Well, as technician, I was on duty for seven

          5  days, round the clock, when it was my turn to be on

          6  duty.

          7       Q.   And as logistics officer?

          8       A.   Well, I would work my eight-hour working day

          9  and then would be free.

         10       Q.   But if I understood you correctly, then you

         11  would make more money during your free time?

         12       A.   Yes.  I worked as a car mechanic.

         13       Q.   I've been warned, and I'm asking you to do

         14  the same thing.  We shouldn't overlap one another.

         15  Let's wait for the interpreters to interpret what we've

         16  said, and then let's finish.

         17            So that was why you were appointed to the job

         18  of a criminology technician as a replacement, it was

         19  something that was better for you?

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   Otherwise, one could say it was a promotion,

         22  by all other standards?

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   Thank you.

         25       A.   I didn't ask for it.  It was Mr. Skopljak who

Page 1712

          1  insisted on it.

          2       Q.   Will you please tell us --

          3            JUDGE MAY:  Could you slow down, please?

          4            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Yes.

          5       Q.   When you were assigned to do the job of

          6  technician, did you have the training necessary for

          7  this?

          8       A.   No.  I immediately proceeded to Sarajevo to a

          9  course.

         10       Q.   How long were you at that course?

         11       A.   I don't know, two months, two and a half

         12  months.

         13       Q.   Was it a serious course where you worked a

         14  lot?

         15       A.   Yes.  It was also a crash course because of

         16  the situation, so that we really worked practically the

         17  whole day.

         18       Q.   Where was that?

         19       A.   At the Ministry of the Interior School at

         20  Vraca.

         21       Q.   All right.  There, did you acquire at least

         22  some basic knowledge about how one calculates the angle

         23  of the bouncing bullet or what?

         24       A.   No.  That was a matter for experts.

         25       Q.   And criminology technicians, they don't go

Page 1713

          1  through that kind of training?

          2       A.   No.  Ours was only to find traces to take --

          3  to put on record all the marks or whatever and file

          4  them and, of course, measure some parameters.

          5       Q.   But you do know which are relevant marks and

          6  things like that, otherwise you should know how to

          7  calculate an angle?

          8       A.   No, we never calculated the angle.  We never

          9  learned that, but we did learn the bullet trajectories.

         10       Q.   You learned the trajectories?

         11       A.   Yes.

         12       Q.   Did you learn anything about how to

         13  differentiate between projectiles fired from

         14  semi-automatics and automatic weapons, on the other

         15  hand?

         16       A.   No, we did not learn anything about that

         17  difference, and I don't think there was any need to.

         18  As for calibres of weapons, weapon calibres, we were

         19  not the ones who ascertained that on a victim.  Others

         20  do that.

         21       Q.   And the bullet casings found there?

         22       A.   Well, when you find them, you send them to an

         23  expert for the expert analysis.

         24       Q.   Did I understand you well, that your training

         25  came down to the framework needed for a technician to

Page 1714

          1  secure marks and evidence?

          2       A.   Well, I can tell you all that we were taught

          3  there if you were interested in that.

          4       Q.   No.  It will be easier this way.

          5       A.   Well, we could establish -- of course, find

          6  traces of gunpowder on clothes and all sorts of things.

          7       Q.   No.  Just let it be.  Let me just try to

          8  finish with this part.

          9       A.   That is what I'm telling you.  We can

         10  establish the relevant distance, whether it was at

         11  close range or not, judging by the gunpowder marks on

         12  the body and so on and so forth, but I simply do not

         13  think that this is -- I'm really not passing a test for

         14  a criminology technician right now, am I?

         15       Q.   Let me ask you a specific question.

         16  Yesterday, you told us about the on-site investigation

         17  when Samir Trako was killed, and you mentioned a

         18  detail.  You said that there was an entry and an exit

         19  hole on the glass or you said two or three holes had

         20  been made in the glass pane and that you were worried

         21  or, rather, that you were puzzled.  How could it be

         22  that on the other glass pane, which was on the other

         23  side, there were no holes or any other mark?

         24       A.   Yes.  All right.

         25       Q.   Tell us, how could you conclude since you

Page 1715

          1  didn't know where the shot had been fired from?

          2       A.   Of course we knew where the fire had come

          3  from.

          4       Q.   How did you?

          5       A.   On the basis of what we were shown by the

          6  commander of the military police.  The shot came from a

          7  distance of some five or six metres away from Trako.

          8       Q.   And that was roughly where?

          9       A.   The desk or the table at which members of the

         10  Croatian Defence were sitting and Perica Vukadinovic

         11  was sitting there at that moment.

         12       Q.   And that was supposed to be a reception desk

         13  or something?

         14       A.   No, not the reception desk because that was

         15  in the hall, and that was over here in the room.

         16       Q.   It served as an office or what?

         17       A.   Well, I guess so.

         18       Q.   Will you tell me, please, Mr. Zlotrg, in the

         19  former Yugoslavia or in Bosnia, did you ever act as an

         20  expert witness in court, as a criminology expert?

         21       A.   I've already told you that.

         22       Q.   No.  Tell me "Yes" or "No" before the Court.

         23       A.   No.  I became a criminology technician much

         24  later.

         25       Q.   So you never testified as an expert witness?

Page 1716

          1       A.   In the former Yugoslavia, no.

          2       Q.   Since we are addressing this issue, that is,

          3  the investigation of the killing of the late Samir

          4  Trako, I should like to clarify certain matters so I do

          5  have a few questions in this regard.

          6            You go into the hotel.  As far as I remember,

          7  there is a glass door, two openings, and then behind it

          8  is another glass door; is that so?

          9       A.   And between them?

         10       Q.   And between them is a passage.  Then beyond

         11  that second glass door is a corridor where there is a

         12  cloakroom?

         13       A.   Yes.

         14       Q.   And from that corridor, stairs lead

         15  downstairs --

         16       A.   Yes.

         17       Q.   -- to the bowling hall.  And there was a bar

         18  in the bowling hall?

         19       A.   Yes, but it wasn't --

         20       Q.   It was a public place?

         21       A.   Yes.  Any visitor could go there, those who

         22  did.  But it is true that the late Samir Trako and his

         23  two colleagues, Petar and another Trako --

         24            THE INTERPRETER:  I didn't hear his name.

         25       A.  -- were also there that night.  That is what

Page 1717

          1  we know.

          2       Q.   Did you learn during the investigation that

          3  the three of them were in that bar?

          4       A.   Yes.

          5       Q.   Did you learn that some other people,

          6  including Muslims, were in that bar?

          7       A.   To my knowledge, there were members of the

          8  Croatian Defence Council, and I'm not aware of anything

          9  else.

         10       Q.   But just now, you told us that there were HVO

         11  members, and a while ago, you also said there were some

         12  other people.  Now we've got -- well, in addition to

         13  the three of them --

         14       A.   In addition to the three of them, that's what

         15  I said.  I told you -- I confirmed that the three of

         16  them were there.

         17       Q.   So we agree that that particular bar was open

         18  to all?

         19       A.   Well, I know that I did not go there because

         20  nobody invited me there.  But, yes, I agree --

         21       Q.   But most of the Muslims were not desirable

         22  there?

         23       A.   Yes, that's right.

         24       Q.   But was it open to all?

         25       A.   Well, I guess so.  I did not go there, so I

Page 1718

          1  really can't answer that question.

          2            JUDGE MAY:  One moment.  A pause between

          3  question and answer, please.

          4            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation)

          5       Q.   Sir, that evening, from what you are saying,

          6  at least those three, that is, two Trakos and Petak,

          7  were there?

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   And they were Muslims?

         10       A.   They are Muslims.  It's not that they were,

         11  they are Muslims.

         12       Q.   I'm sorry.  I said "were" because one of them

         13  was killed.  You also confirmed that there were some

         14  other individuals there about whom you learned later.

         15       A.   Yes.

         16       Q.   You told us that in the hotel building or,

         17  rather, in that office, there was, you told us, the HVO

         18  command and you said also Cerkez's post, that he worked

         19  there, allegedly, and you also added that you didn't

         20  know in what capacity Cerkez was in that institution.

         21       A.   I said -- I said that it was a commander, but

         22  I do not know whether it would be a gauge of the staff

         23  or what because I do not know how the HVO was organised

         24  at the time, but I do know that a couple of months

         25  later, we saw the Vitez Brigade and that Mr. Cerkez

Page 1719

          1  took over the duty of the commander.  That is what I

          2  know about this.

          3       Q.   I do not think we should now go back to the

          4  transcript to see what you said or did not say.  I do

          5  not think that you said a commander, I think you said

          6  "I don't know in what capacity."  But we do have a

          7  transcript so it doesn't really matter.

          8            Since you mentioned the alignment of the

          9  brigade, do you remember when that happened?

         10       A.   I know it was a warm day.  I subsequently

         11  later [as interpreted] that a couple of combatants

         12  dropped down and Dr. Mujezinovic with his team had to

         13  extend for a stay.

         14       Q.   So it was summer '92.  And you said that

         15  Mario Cerkez then became the commander of what?

         16       A.   Of the Vitez Brigade, from what I know.

         17       Q.   Of the Vitez Brigade?

         18       A.   Of the Vitez Brigade or the Croatian Defence

         19  Council.

         20       Q.   Are you sure that the Vitez Brigade existed

         21  at that time?

         22       A.   I assume so.

         23       Q.   On the basis of what?

         24       A.   Well, I cannot talk about the organisation of

         25  the army of the Croatian Defence Council because I had

Page 1720

          1  no access to that, but on the basis of all the other

          2  developments, that was my assumption.

          3       Q.   And that alignment, was it secret, public?

          4       A.   There were the police members there.

          5            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Nice?

          6            MR. NICE:  The Live Note is finding the speed

          7  very difficult or impossible to keep up with.

          8                 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

          9            MR. NICE:  May I add a detail that the Live

         10  Note transcribers asked me to mention?  The particular

         11  problem this morning includes, or problems this morning

         12  include, that the interpreters aren't identifying the

         13  end of question and answer by use of the word

         14  "Question," "Answer"; and therefore, it is very

         15  difficult for her to distinguish, in typing the text,

         16  so on, which is the question from which is the answer.

         17  I only make these points on her behalf because I am

         18  sitting next to her and we discovered that she was in

         19  difficulties.

         20            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Kovacic, let me explain

         21  what I think the problem is.  Because you speak the

         22  same language as the witness, you tend to have a kind

         23  of conversation, and so the questions and the answers

         24  are intermingled, and so quite often we see here,

         25  "Can't distinguish between questions and answer."  And

Page 1721

          1  that doesn't help us.  So I think you will have to make

          2  a very determined effort to slow down and to ensure

          3  that the witness answers you before you move on to the

          4  next question and I think the witness also has to be

          5  aware of the problem.

          6            MR. KOVACIC:  I will do my best.  As you said

          7  rightly, my problem is that we are speaking the same

          8  language and then I reflectly (sic) and the witness is

          9  also doing so, then we both probably should try.  Thank

         10  you.

         11       Q.   (Interpretation) Mr. Zlotrg, you heard it

         12  just as well as I did.  With regard to this

         13  investigation, you mentioned Mr. Efraim Pinjo.

         14       A.   Yes.  He was assistant commander of the

         15  Territorial Defence for security matters.

         16            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Thank you.

         17  Could you please now see a video recording, with the

         18  Court's permission?

         19            Your Honours, I should merely like to ask the

         20  witness to identify the gentleman that we just referred

         21  to.  It's about five seconds or ten seconds of video.

         22       Q.   Will you please look at it and then tell us

         23  whether this is Efraim Pinjo?

         24                 (Videotape played)

         25            THE INTERPRETER (Voiceover):

Page 1722

          1            "INTERVIEWER:  Here in Travnik we found Mr.

          2  Efraim Pinjo.  Once upon a time, he worked for the TO

          3  in Vitez.  We shall ask him to tell us under what

          4  conditions did he move to Travnik, why did he leave

          5  Vitez?

          6            MR. PINJO:  I moved to Travnik because I was

          7  driven away.  People were also sent away.  The former

          8  colleague, Hakija Cengic and others and those who drove

          9  a [indiscernible] also my fellow policemen, Croats,

         10  they know very well who we are and those who were

         11  driven away were sent to Zenica.

         12            INTERVIEWER:  And what are you doing here?

         13  Here you are with the joint command.

         14            MR. PINJO:  Yes, I am here with the joint

         15  command.  This is what I also wanted to do.

         16            INTERVIEWER:  That command has

         17  [indiscernible] of May.  How has it been working?

         18            MR. PINJO:  Well, so far it's been all right,

         19  and this joint command will defend my city and their

         20  city too.

         21            INTERVIEWER:  Thank you.  Thank you."

         22       A.   Yes.  That is Efraim Pinjo.

         23            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Excuse me.

         24  Could we please have this admitted as an exhibit for

         25  the Defence?

Page 1723

          1            JUDGE MAY:  Do you have a date for it,

          2  Mr. Kovacic?

          3            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) No,

          4  unfortunately, we do not, but I think the witness might

          5  tell us.  I will ask him when did Efraim Pinjo leave

          6  Vitez and go to Travnik.  We heard him say that he did

          7  so.  This is material from different places and,

          8  unfortunately, there is simply odds and ends, and most

          9  of them do not have that particular marking on the

         10  tape, although I think he does mention May, early May,

         11  I believe.

         12            THE REGISTRAR: (Interpretation) This will be

         13  number D3/2.

         14            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) May I go on,

         15  please?

         16            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

         17            MR. KOVACIC:

         18       Q.   So, Mr. Zlotrg, this is Efraim Pinjo who you

         19  mentioned?

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   So he was a security officer with the

         22  Territorial Defence headquarters in Vitez?

         23       A.   Yes, assistant commander.

         24       Q.   Assistant commander?

         25       A.   Yes, of the Territorial Defence staff.

Page 1724

          1       Q.   Did you know him?

          2       A.   Yes.

          3       Q.   Do you remember when he left Vitez?

          4       A.   I don't know when he left because I was not

          5  in the army then, but this recording must have been

          6  made while we were still on very friendly relations

          7  with the Croatian Defence Council in Travnik.

          8       Q.   Could it be early May '92?

          9       A.   I don't know.  You'd have to ask him.  I

         10  suppose he knows when he made the statement.

         11       Q.   But you exclude the possibility it was May

         12  1992?

         13       A.   It could have been any time before the

         14  conflict in Travnik between the HVO and the Armija.

         15       Q.   What was the connection between the reserve

         16  police force with the Territorial Defence, subsequently

         17  the army of the B and H?

         18       A.   The reserve police force was subordinated to

         19  the commander and through the commander to the chief,

         20  and if the commanders agreed a coordinated action with

         21  the Armija, then they did it.  If not, then each one

         22  would do his job.  I mean, the reserve police, of

         23  course, was responsible for public order.

         24       Q.   Yesterday you told us that the officer on

         25  duty at the station, after you received information

Page 1725

          1  about the murder in the hotel, did not call you to take

          2  part in the investigation, he called up the chief?

          3       A.   Yes.

          4       Q.   And then another team went?

          5       A.   Yes, the one that was appointed by the chief.

          6       Q.   Oh, I see, the one who was appointed by the

          7  chief.  Tell me, this murder, at that time, was that a

          8  delicate matter for the police in view of the tensions,

          9  inter-ethnic tensions, in the community?

         10       A.   In May?  Well, it shouldn't have been.  If I

         11  could go to Kruscica later and if I could receive

         12  information about the murder after one hour only, I

         13  don't see why it couldn't have gone a few months before

         14  that.

         15       Q.   Oh, so in May 1992, there were no

         16  inter-ethnic tensions?

         17       A.   There were tensions, but they did not reach

         18  that point where an investigation could not be carried

         19  out.  Perhaps it was a different backdrop against --

         20       Q.   Oh, so you think that the duty officer at the

         21  police station, this chief, could have resolved that

         22  matter routinely?

         23       A.   The duty officer was not supposed to inform

         24  the chief at all.  He did not have to.  First he was

         25  supposed to inform the investigating team and then to

Page 1726

          1  take this telegram to the chief for his signature and

          2  then to inform him about the event.  Why did he not

          3  inform the commander of the station, who was a Muslim?

          4       Q.   All right.  At any rate, you performed the

          5  investigation the next morning; right?

          6       A.   Yes.

          7       Q.   I'm going to read some names to you, so could

          8  you please confirm whether these people were there?  On

          9  the next morning, was investigating judge of the basic

         10  court in Travnik, Mr. Zeljko Percinlic, was he there?

         11       A.   Yes.

         12       Q.   So he was.  What about the operations workers

         13  of the Public Security Station of Vitez, Salem Topcic?

         14       A.   Yes.

         15       Q.   And Vlado Santic?

         16       A.   Yes.

         17       Q.   What are these men, ethnically speaking?

         18       A.   Vlado is a Croat, and he was there the night

         19  before that, and Salem, who came only on that morning,

         20  he was a Muslim.

         21       Q.   So from the Public Security Station of Vitez,

         22  one Muslim and one Croat?

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   As a criminology technician from the same

         25  station, you were present and Frano Sucic was present?

Page 1727

          1       A.   Yes, but Frano was there that night too and I

          2  was not.  I only came on the next day.

          3       Q.   All right.  But that morning, you were there

          4  and Frano was there?

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   You told us that you were a Muslim or a

          7  Bosniak, ethnically, you.

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   And Frano?

         10       A.   Frano is a Croat.  I imagine that he says

         11  he's a Croat.

         12       Q.   I know it sounds a bit strange.  The two of

         13  us know but others don't.  That's why I had to ask this

         14  question so that it would be in the transcript.

         15            Then Vlado Miskovic was present, the public

         16  prosecutor from Travnik?

         17       A.   Yes, yes.

         18       Q.   Oh, so he was there.  A few minutes ago, a

         19  person who was mentioned who we saw on the video clip

         20  too, Pinjo Efraim; was he there?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   That is to say that there was a total of

         23  seven persons there in this official capacity?

         24       A.   Yes.  But the crime scene was not secured

         25  properly.

Page 1728

          1            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Please, we'll

          2  take things one at a time and we'll reach that.

          3            At this point I would like to ask the Court

          4  the following:  I have this document.  I have the

          5  record of this investigation, but I owe you an

          6  explanation.

          7            Witness Zlotrg was supposed to testify only

          8  after the next witnesses who are supposed to come in.

          9  I'm not going to mention their names because I don't

         10  know what their status will be and how they will

         11  testify.  So that is to say, the three witnesses were

         12  skipped.  Immediately on the 26th, when our colleague

         13  from the Prosecution told us that this witness will be

         14  brought in instead of the planned witnesses, we asked

         15  the registry for a translation of this document.  Of

         16  course, I have a copy here of the request.  We asked

         17  that this be done as soon as possible; however,

         18  unfortunately, this has not been done by this morning,

         19  but I would like to ask you nevertheless that we use

         20  this document.  I'm not going to tender the document.

         21  I would just like to put two or three questions.  After

         22  that, we can give it a number, and after that, as soon

         23  as the translation comes in, then we are officially

         24  going to hand it over to the Court.

         25            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.  There is a reason for

Page 1729

          1  the lack of translation so we will allow that to

          2  happen.  What would the number be, please?

          3            THE REGISTRAR: (Interpretation) D4/2.

          4            MR. NICE:  No doubt the Defence will make a

          5  copy available to us ahead of the translation because

          6  it may be of some value to us.

          7            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  Make sure the Prosecution

          8  have a copy.  In fact, they should probably have it.

          9  Have you one available?

         10            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) I do.

         11            JUDGE MAY:  Let them have one now.

         12            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Could the usher

         13  please take care of this?

         14            Your Honour, perhaps in order to speed up our

         15  work, I think that the witness should also look at a

         16  copy so that I could do this properly with him and then

         17  we will move more speedily, I think.

         18            THE INTERPRETER:  Could a copy please be

         19  placed on the ELMO for the interpreters, please?

         20            JUDGE MAY:  A copy on the ELMO for the

         21  interpreters, if you have one?

         22            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the usher help us,

         23  please?

         24            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) I would like to

         25  continue, with your permission.

Page 1730

          1       Q.   Witness Zlotrg, we'll try to save a bit of

          2  time.  Perhaps you would like to look at the document a

          3  bit more.  Perhaps we can move on.  I'm not going to go

          4  into any great detail with this record because it is

          5  going to be tendered into evidence.  But just a few

          6  brief questions so that we see what all of this is

          7  about.

          8            The first sentence after the title of the

          9  document, that is to say, after the actual title, which

         10  is "Record of Investigation," the date and place is

         11  mentioned of the investigation and then further on it

         12  says in this sentence, "And on the occasion of the

         13  murder of Trako Samir," et cetera.

         14            Is there any doubt as to the relationship

         15  between this document and the event that we spoke of?

         16       A.   Well, most probably yes because I didn't

         17  write it, it is the judge who wrote it.

         18       Q.   But the date is right, is it?

         19       A.   I assume it is.

         20       Q.   And what about the place?

         21       A.   Yes, the place is right.

         22       Q.   And what about the persons who were present?

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   The persons who are mentioned here are under

         25  the heading "Uvidjaj vrse ..." "The investigation is

Page 1731

          1  carried out by ..."

          2       A.   Yes.

          3       Q.   Then the following heading is "General

          4  Facts."

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   For the purposes of the transcript, it says

          7  on the top of this page, "On the 22nd of May, 1992."

          8       A.   Oh, you're talking about this record?

          9       Q.   Yes.  At 7.30 in Vitez.

         10       A.   The record was written later.  It was written

         11  by the judge.

         12       Q.   Yes, that's right.  But then it bears the

         13  date of the investigation itself.

         14       A.   As far as I can tell, it says here the record

         15  was composed on the 22nd of May, 1992, and I know that

         16  the judge did not write it as we were there on the

         17  scene.

         18       Q.   As a criminology technician, I imagine that

         19  you attended a great many investigations before.

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   And there was an investigating judge there

         22  and he was in charge; right?

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   And now you said that you assume that the

         25  judge wrote the record later ...

Page 1732

          1       A.   Please, please.

          2       Q.   Is it normal for the judge to write this

          3  later or does he write the same day or the very same

          4  minute?  Tell us what was customary?

          5       A.   He would write it on the same day.  He would

          6  do it in handwriting.  But here it says that it is

          7  composed, not that it was written on that date; that is

          8  to say, that it was typed out on that date.

          9       Q.   Do you know when the judge dictated this to

         10  his secretary?

         11       A.   That I do not know.

         12       Q.   Was the judge at the investigation, on-scene

         13  investigation?

         14       A.   Yes.

         15       Q.   But you don't know exactly when he wrote it?

         16       A.   No, I don't, but at any rating, he couldn't

         17  have written it at 7.30.

         18       Q.   On that morning, when you were there at 7.30,

         19  was he taking notes?

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   I would like to draw your attention to the

         22  first paragraph entitled "Opsti Podaci," general facts,

         23  and in the second half of this paragraph,

         24  approximately, after the address is mentioned, the

         25  address of the late Samir Trako, after the comma, it

Page 1733

          1  says, "The mentioned person was killed by a perpetrator

          2  known, Perica Vukadinovic," and then his personal data

          3  are given.

          4            On which basis did the investigating judge

          5  find out what the name of the person who did the

          6  shooting was?

          7       A.   I was doing the investigation, and the judge

          8  was taking statements operationally.  I did not know

          9  who he took statements from; I imagine from the

         10  commander of the military police, but I don't know.  I

         11  was not present.  But he did take statements from those

         12  present; that's what he was supposed to do.

         13       Q.   In the penultimate paragraph, under the same

         14  heading but page 2, the paragraph begins with the words

         15  "a licu mjesta" or on the spot.  It's more or less

         16  midway down the page.  I shall read this sentence:  "On

         17  the scene or on the spot, we found the eyewitnesses to

         18  the event, namely, Dubravko Kraljevic," I'll skip his

         19  personal particulars and address because we don't

         20  really need it now, then "Josip Tomic, Ratko Biletic,

         21  Ivan Budimir," and then the text goes on, "and

         22  eyewitnesses Trako Suad," and then again comes his

         23  particulars, "and Senad Petak were not found at the

         24  scene."  The last sentence, the last sentence under

         25  this heading says, "Eyewitness Anastazija Blazevic was

Page 1734

          1  also found at the scene."

          2            Can you tell us, do you know the profession

          3  of any of these eyewitnesses or who they are, what they

          4  are, and how they happened to be there?

          5       A.   I'm not an operative worker; I'm a

          6  criminology technician, so it was up to me to collect

          7  evidence, and it was for others, together with the

          8  judge, to take the particulars and everything else.

          9       Q.   Excuse me.  I was not asking you about your

         10  contacts and statements there.  All I asked you was, we

         11  have just read the names of those persons, and all I

         12  want to ask you is, if you can tell us, whom among them

         13  do you know?  Will you please just tell me the names of

         14  those you know?

         15       A.   Senad Petak, Ivan Budimir, and this one,

         16  Kraljevic, Dubravko, I mean.

         17       Q.   So you did not know Tomic?

         18       A.   No.

         19       Q.   Suad Trako, you didn't know him?

         20       A.   Well, I'm sure I know them, but now -- I

         21  mean, I listened to the names.  These are the only ones

         22  I can remember.

         23       Q.   Mrs. Anastazija Blazevic?

         24       A.   No.

         25       Q.   Do you know that she owned that coffee shop?

Page 1735

          1       A.   No.

          2       Q.   You don't know that?

          3       A.   No.

          4            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours,

          5  one could ask very many questions on the basis of this

          6  document, but I think it is telling enough as it is, so

          7  that I won't go into it further at this moment.

          8       Q.   Yesterday, you spoke about some evidence at

          9  the scene of the crime, and, among other things, you

         10  mentioned blood, that is, blood stains on the floor of

         11  the room that we talked about.  Then you said, if I may

         12  quote you, that in your view, "There should have been

         13  more blood."

         14       A.   Yes, and --

         15       Q.   No.  Wait for me to ask the question.  Did I

         16  interpret correctly what you said?

         17       A.   Yes.

         18       Q.   And on the basis of what did you think that

         19  there should have been more blood?

         20       A.   It is because they were perforating wounds

         21  because there were these marks through the glass wall,

         22  and the exit wound, that is, the bullet, as it comes

         23  out of the body, it makes a larger opening.  Since the

         24  distance was four or five metres, there should have

         25  been more blood.  I mean, there should have been blood

Page 1736

          1  throughout -- all along the corridor as they were

          2  carrying him out, and yet there were no more traces of

          3  blood, except for what I wrote down, just a very

          4  small -- there were very few traces of blood, and that

          5  is not logical.

          6       Q.   Please, Witness, the body, was it or was it

          7  not there when you arrived there?  Please, "Yes" or

          8  "No" only.

          9       A.   No.

         10       Q.   So how did you know at that moment where he

         11  received his wounds and whether it was a perforating

         12  wound?  Where was the entry and exit wound?  You can't

         13  know that.

         14       A.   Also, according to the statement and the

         15  position which they told us, they told us where the

         16  body was, and the door was slightly ajar.  The witness,

         17  it means, was in the room, and the door is behind the

         18  witness.  So if he is in the room, then the glass wall

         19  must have been behind him.  Therefore, it must have

         20  been a perforating wound.

         21       Q.   But that was your assumption?

         22       A.   Yes.

         23       Q.   Witness, a while ago, you said that you did

         24  your technical work and that you cannot go into the

         25  statements made by those present.

Page 1737

          1       A.   Yes, but we most know something about the

          2  event so as to do that.  We must have some data as to

          3  where the body lay so as to perform other on-site

          4  investigation activities.

          5       Q.   I see.  That means that these conjectures

          6  were based on statements of others and on the basis of

          7  evidence?

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   So the conclusions did not derive only from

         10  criminology evidence, did they, but also were based on

         11  what other persons said?

         12       A.   Yes.

         13       Q.   Thank you.

         14            MR. KOVACIC:  Your Honour, for me, it is a

         15  good time for a break, but it's up to you.  I can

         16  continue.

         17            JUDGE MAY:  We're finishing early.  Are you

         18  moving off this topic now?

         19            MR. KOVACIC:  Yes.  This topic is finished.

         20            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.  We will adjourn now

         21  for 20 minutes.

         22            MR. KOVACIC:  Thank you.

         23                 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

         24                 --- On resuming at 11.24 a.m.

         25            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

Page 1738

          1            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Thank you,

          2  Mr. President.

          3       Q.   In connection with your previous statements,

          4  to be precise, the first one with the judge in Zenica

          5  on the 3rd of October, '94 where you made your first

          6  statement, the first one we have, and then you made a

          7  statement to the investigators of this Tribunal on the

          8  27th and 28th of September, '97 in connection with the

          9  events that we spoke about it, that is to say, the

         10  murder of Samir Trako, there is a difference which I'd

         11  like you to explain.  When you made your statement to

         12  the investigating judge in Zenica, that is to say, on

         13  the 3rd of October, '94, you said that you could not

         14  ascertain who the perpetrator of the murder was but

         15  that there were rumours to the effect that Mario

         16  Cerkez, commander of the Vitez Brigade, was the

         17  perpetrator; is that true?  Is that what you said?

         18       A.   Yes, but I told the judge that I could not

         19  remember the name of the member of the military police

         20  who allegedly, that is, I imagine according to even

         21  Budimir, said that Perica Vukadinovic had committed

         22  that.  That is what I found out later, that is to say,

         23  after a certain period of time, rumour had it in town

         24  that Mario Cerkez had killed this gentleman.

         25       Q.   I understand.  But you told the judge in

Page 1739

          1  Zenica what I told you, what I read?

          2       A.   I did not read my statement in Zenica, so I

          3  don't know what ...

          4       Q.   Well, look, at the end of the statement you

          5  made in that court, there is a warning or, rather, a

          6  note to the effect that -- well, I'm really translating

          7  it from English:  "That is all I have to say at this

          8  point in time, although many more things happened.

          9  Everything I said has been recorded accordingly.  I

         10  have no objections and acknowledge this statement as

         11  mine with my signature."

         12            I don't think that it is very important, but

         13  I just asked you to confirm or deny, that is to say,

         14  just say "Yes" or "No," that you told the judge in

         15  Zenica that you were not able to ascertain who the

         16  perpetrator was but that rumour had it that it was

         17  Mario Cerkez?

         18       A.   I accept what was signed because at that

         19  point in time, Mr. Perica Vukadinovic was not

         20  accessible to us.  He had been put away.

         21       Q.   In your statement to the investigator of this

         22  Tribunal, the one that you made at the time I

         23  mentioned, namely, the 27th and the 28th of September,

         24  1997, you explained this event in quite a bit of

         25  detail, and you do not mention here this story, this

Page 1740

          1  rumour that you heard, that Mario Cerkez had committed

          2  this; is that correct?

          3       A.   Yes, but this is not a statement made to the

          4  investigator of The Hague Tribunal.

          5       Q.   What is it then?

          6       A.   This is an official note, I think that is

          7  what it says up there, and it is some kind of a

          8  reminder for me.  These were notes I offered to the

          9  investigator when he came to take a statement from me

         10  for the Aleksovski case.  I mean, I can read you the

         11  original.  See?  Look.  "Official note made on the 5th

         12  of September, 1996 on the occasion of --" I mean,

         13  that's what we're talking about.

         14       Q.   No, no, no.  Sorry.  I asked you about the

         15  statement you made to the investigator on the 27th and

         16  28th of September, 1997.

         17       A.   Well, possibly.  I don't know.  I thought --

         18       Q.   All right.  Let me rephrase the question.  Do

         19  you remember that in this statement you made to the

         20  investigator of the Tribunal, you did not mention at

         21  any point that you heard rumours to the effect that

         22  Cerkez was the perpetrator of this crime?

         23       A.   Had he asked me, I'm sure that I would have

         24  told him that he was the perpetrator.  I gave a lot of

         25  statements, so I really do not remember.

Page 1741

          1       Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Tell me a bit about

          2  the jurisdiction of courts in the territory of Vitez.

          3  As regards the event that we just talked about, you

          4  mentioned or, rather, we saw from the document itself

          5  that the judge from the basic court in Travnik came,

          6  and yesterday when you were telling us about another

          7  event, you mentioned that there was a judge from

          8  Zenica?

          9       A.   Yes.

         10       Q.   What was the territorial jurisdiction exactly

         11  of the courts that covered the territory of Vitez?

         12       A.   I cannot answer that question.  I'm not

         13  competent.

         14       Q.   Can I infer then that in the case of one

         15  event, the Travnik court would be present and in

         16  another case, the Zenica court would be present?

         17       A.   Yes, because when death is the outcome, then

         18  the judge of the higher court, of the basic court, has

         19  to come to the scene of the crime.

         20       Q.   Fine.  I am asking you this for those who did

         21  not live there with us.  Which one was the higher

         22  court, the one in Zenica or the one in Travnik?

         23       A.   Well, you can tell by the very name, the

         24  court in Zenica.

         25       Q.   Oh, I see.  So the court in Zenica was

Page 1742

          1  higher?

          2       A.   Yes.

          3       Q.   Wasn't that court supposed to be present then

          4  in the case of this murder?

          5       A.   Yes, but I don't know whether they authorised

          6  the basic court in Travnik.  This is not within my own

          7  competence.  I don't know.

          8       Q.   As a criminology technician, that is to say,

          9  as part of the police, did you know that there were

         10  instructions issued by the Ministry that a higher court

         11  could assign a lower court to do certain things on

         12  their behalf?

         13            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Kovacic, I'm going to

         14  interrupt you because we have spent a very long time on

         15  one particular incident.  Now, it's for you to decide

         16  how to cross-examine, and I don't know what other

         17  material you want to put to the witness, but what I ask

         18  is this:  Is this Trial Chamber going to be assisted

         19  with a very lengthy cross-examination on one particular

         20  topic?

         21            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Mr. President,

         22  this last question or these last questions that were

         23  related in a way to the subject of the murder were

         24  actually aimed in a different direction.  I am actually

         25  trying to show an order or, rather, a disorder that

Page 1743

          1  prevailed in this area, and I think that this is

          2  important because the witness presented the question of

          3  the legal order in a rather one-sided fashion in the

          4  municipality of Vitez.

          5            I don't want to dwell on the murder any

          6  longer, but the fact was that there were two different

          7  courts that were in charge of investigations.

          8            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.

          9            JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Kovacic,

         10  I think that the Judges are very well aware of your

         11  concerns.  The problem is as follows:  We might ask you

         12  to go straight to the core of what you want to

         13  present.  You have your own strategy, haven't you, and

         14  it is up to you to present it, but you are also free to

         15  go straight to the topic to make the cross-examination

         16  easier.  So this is the kind of contribution that we

         17  are expecting from you.  Thank you.

         18            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Of course, I'll

         19  try, Your Honour, but it depends upon how cooperative

         20  the witness is too.  Unfortunately, we had to repeat

         21  certain things; otherwise, there was no need to do so,

         22  really, but let us move on.

         23       Q.   Tell me, please, Mr. Zlotrg, when a crime

         24  would be committed in the territory of Vitez during

         25  this time that we are talking about, for example, from

Page 1744

          1  the mid -- from mid '92 or in the middle of 1992, who

          2  was in charge of arresting the perpetrator?  We were

          3  just mentioning this by way of an example.  It can be

          4  any other thing.

          5       A.   If it was a civilian, then the civilian

          6  police; if it was a case of a member of the military,

          7  then the military police.

          8       Q.   Tell me, when you would come to an

          9  investigation of a crime scene, if anybody would report

         10  to the police station, any citizen, that a crime had

         11  been committed, then the investigation team would go

         12  out, and -- we also saw this from part of your

         13  testimony yesterday -- quite often the persons involved

         14  are sometimes members of the military and sometimes

         15  they are civilians.

         16            How was a distinction made between civilian

         17  authority, that is to say, the powers of the civilian

         18  police, what they were supposed to do by way of

         19  carrying out the investigation in relation to what the

         20  military police were supposed to do with regard to

         21  crimes?  Can you explain this to us in two or three

         22  words?

         23       A.   Could you please clarify this question?

         24       Q.   When you come to carry out an investigation

         25  of a crime scene and when you see that the victim is a

Page 1745

          1  soldier, will the civilian police continue the

          2  investigation or will it report to the military police

          3  about this event?

          4       A.   When there is a report, then the police

          5  patrol goes to the scene and reports to the duty

          6  officer saying what it's all about, and then they

          7  immediately present the picture if he says, from the

          8  scene itself, whether this is a member of the military

          9  or whether it's a civilian.

         10       Q.   So if the patrol in any way ...

         11       A.   Well, I'm not the one who decided what the

         12  composition of the investigation team would be.  It was

         13  up to the duty officer to make the call to the right

         14  place and to the persons who were on duty in the

         15  civilian police.

         16       Q.   Yes, that I understand.

         17       A.   I'm only part of the team.

         18       Q.   Yes, we've understood that.  Perhaps I didn't

         19  put my question properly.

         20            What is the criterion, irrespective of who is

         21  doing this, the duty officer or the investigating team,

         22  for determining which police is in charge of a certain

         23  event, a certain crime?

         24       A.   Well, it depends whose member this is, if

         25  this is a member of a certain army or if this person is

Page 1746

          1  a civilian.

          2       Q.   Well, who?  Who is a member of what?

          3       A.   Well, yes, I mean, it depends who did it.

          4       Q.   Oh, so you're trying to say the participants

          5  in the entire event?

          6       A.   Yes.

          7       Q.   You use plural, you said military police,

          8  that is units, so we had several military police forces

          9  and several units, and that transpires also from what

         10  you said yesterday and today.

         11       A.   No, there was one civilian police and two

         12  military police forces, the military police of the

         13  Croatian Defence Council and the military police of the

         14  Territorial Defence headquarters in Vitez.

         15       Q.   Correct.  During a period of time.

         16       A.   Yes.

         17       Q.   But later on, in late '92?

         18       A.   In late November '92, when we were expelled

         19  from the police station and we were authorised by the

         20  Ministry of the Interior in Sarajevo, then we set up

         21  the Public Security Station loyal to the local

         22  government of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

         23       Q.   So at that time and for the months to come,

         24  there were two civilian, two military --

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 1747

          1       Q.   -- which operated in the same area.

          2       A.   No.  The territories under the control of the

          3  Croatian Defence Council were controlled by the

          4  Croatian civilian police, and the territory where there

          5  was a majority Muslim population was under our control.

          6       Q.   I see.  So does that mean that yesterday,

          7  when you read and we followed the events in sequence,

          8  and I think there are 37 incidents that are mentioned

          9  there, and all those acts that were read, in all of

         10  them Muslims were victims, were they not?  Was that the

         11  result of that division or, rather, you, as police, as

         12  the civilian police of Stari Vitez, came out to conduct

         13  investigations only in the case of those incidents?

         14       A.   That was taken from the report, that is, from

         15  the reports of -- from applications by citizens, and,

         16  naturally, it was citizens of Muslim ethnicity who came

         17  to our station, and we don't always go out for on-site

         18  investigation.  We did not go out for on-site

         19  investigation when Hasan Skopljak was killed and

         20  robbed, and he was a well-off Muslim living in Bila,

         21  and there were quite a number of incidents when we did

         22  not conduct on-site investigation because those things

         23  happened in the territory controlled by the HVO.

         24       Q.   So -- correct.  So people from the area

         25  controlled by that station tried to --

Page 1748

          1       A.   No, people from the town, they came to

          2  complain to us.

          3       Q.   But then you could not conduct the on-site

          4  investigation, you couldn't go out?

          5       A.   No, but we took record of them.

          6       Q.   Mm-hmm.  Is it possible that during that

          7  period when, that is, when those 37 [indiscernible]

          8  incidents came, that they had been between the 16th of

          9  December, '92 until mid April '93, is it possible that

         10  there was not a single Croat victim, that only Muslims

         11  fell prey to crime?

         12       A.   At that time, I worked for the Public

         13  Security Station in Vitez, in Stari Vitez, and

         14  therefore this was the record of statements made by

         15  people who made applications, who came to report, and

         16  in all likelihood, Croats went to the station of the

         17  Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, but I don't know

         18  that.

         19       Q.   So you do not know that during that time,

         20  some crimes had been committed at the expense of

         21  Croats?

         22       A.   I don't.  I know that Croats came to us to

         23  get their driving lessons and plates.

         24       Q.   Those who lived in Stari Vitez?

         25       A.   No, those who lived in the town.  They also

Page 1749

          1  came to apply for their passports to us and in large

          2  numbers.

          3       Q.   And still you do not know whether Croats were

          4  victims of crimes?

          5       A.   I don't know because I had no access to the

          6  police station in the territory controlled by Croatian

          7  Community of Herceg-Bosna.

          8       Q.   But does that mean that the civilian police

          9  in that part where you worked, that is, the civilian

         10  police in Stari Vitez, took care only about protecting

         11  Muslims?

         12       A.   No.

         13            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours,

         14  if I may, I should like to tender another document into

         15  evidence.  Unfortunately, Judge Bennouna, we have not

         16  yet received a French translation -- some do have

         17  French translations, some do not, but these are quite

         18  straightforward documents, so perhaps it can be simple

         19  -- some of them were tendered in the Blaskic case at a

         20  later date, and all these documents that I will show

         21  now have already been tendered into evidence in the

         22  Blaskic case.

         23            Mr. Usher, will you please see that these

         24  documents are received by their Honours?

         25            THE REGISTRAR: (Interpretation) Exhibit D5/2.

Page 1750

          1            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours,

          2  at the top, you have the Croatian text and then it is

          3  followed by the English.

          4            Would the registrar please give a copy to the

          5  other Defence counsel?

          6       Q.   Will you please turn to page 2 of the

          7  report?

          8            THE INTERPRETER:  Could it please be placed

          9  on the ELMO for the interpreters?

         10            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation)

         11       Q.   The signature shows that the document was

         12  signed by Mr. Ivan Budimir.  Is that the same person

         13  that you mentioned was present at that on-site

         14  investigation?

         15       A.   Well, if he doesn't have a double, then that

         16  was the same person.

         17       Q.   But could you conclude that that is the same

         18  person from the kind of activity that he was involved

         19  in?

         20       A.   At the time when I knew him, he did not work

         21  for the SIS.

         22       Q.   Will you please tell the Court what SIS

         23  stands for, if you know that?

         24       A.   It means the Security and Information Service

         25  of the Croatian army.

Page 1751

          1       Q.   Will you now please go back to the first

          2  page, 1, and look at the heading?  So if the person

          3  signing the document, Mr. Ivan Budimir, Intelligence

          4  Service, here we see who this Intelligence Service

          5  belonged to.

          6       A.   I also know that Mr. Zeljko Budimir was our

          7  General.  Now he is with the Croatian army, a General

          8  again.

          9       Q.   Please, will you stick to my questions and

         10  the Prosecutor may ask you some additional questions

         11  and then you may make statements that you like.

         12            Can you please identify which unit did,

         13  according to this document, belong the undersigned?

         14  What does the heading say?

         15       A.   "Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatian

         16  Community of Herceg-Bosna, Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade

         17  Commander, 2nd Vitez Battalion."

         18       Q.   Thank you.  The document is entitled

         19  "Analysis," and then it says, "Analysis of the work of

         20  the military police in the zone of responsibility of

         21  the 2nd Battalion."

         22            Do you know what was this 2nd Battalion and

         23  what was its zone of responsibility?

         24       A.   No.

         25       Q.   You don't know?

Page 1752

          1       A.   Right.

          2       Q.   Then let us look at the contents.  Item 1,

          3  and the author says:

          4            "1.  The following police forces exist in

          5  Vitez:  the regional military police, the municipal

          6  military police, the 4th Military Police Battalion, and

          7  the civilian police."

          8            Is that correct?

          9       A.   Yes, but I don't know what period of time

         10  this is about because there is no date here.

         11       Q.   Yes, it is true, there is no date.  That's

         12  why I'm reading this out to you.  Can you, from this

         13  structure, rather, this listing of military police

         14  forces, can we guess the date?

         15       A.   Well, it should be late December '92 or early

         16  '93.

         17       Q.   Correct.  We agree on this.  Then item 3

         18  says:

         19            3.  Despite the presence of these four police

         20  forces, problems abound throughout the municipality of

         21  Vitez.

         22            And then, in item 4, there is mention of

         23  looting of cars, houses, of companies, woundings,

         24  subversive activities in the town, et cetera.

         25            You were with the police at the time, and you

Page 1753

          1  told us what you knew about Stari Vitez.  Can you read

          2  from this?  Can you say something about this, this

          3  information about very many crimes, very many offences,

          4  not in Stari Vitez alone and not in Vitez alone?

          5       A.   Yes, but these are mostly Muslim facilities,

          6  and I listed dates and names of the owners.  What it

          7  says here is only cafes whereas I specified dates and

          8  addresses, that is, Kolonija, the urban part of the

          9  town controlled by the Croatian Council of Vitez, and I

         10  think it quite tallies with my list.

         11       Q.   Oh, yes, quite.  I have no doubts as to that

         12  they tally.  Quite the contrary.  What I'm asking is,

         13  can you conclude from this that on the Croat side,

         14  somebody was also concerned about crime?

         15       A.   Yes, but the situation was getting worse with

         16  every day.

         17       Q.   Right.  Thank you.  You said that your police

         18  had moved, when it began working again in Stari Vitez,

         19  to the fire brigade building.

         20       A.   No.  To begin with, it is not my police, and

         21  will you, please, sir -- that was the police of the

         22  Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina loyal to the local

         23  government, so, please, do not call it as my personal

         24  police.  I have always, with all due respect, I always

         25  said the police of the Croatian Community of

Page 1754

          1  Herceg-Bosna, and I think it is really not proper to

          2  say that either with regard to myself or the state that

          3  I come from.

          4       Q.   I do apologise.  It was not deliberate.  I

          5  simply tried to make things shorter.

          6            So the police for which you worked, the

          7  police of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic

          8  of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I really did not try to say

          9  anything, but be that as it may, when it began working

         10  again, I mean, the police for which you worked, that

         11  was the police under the Ministry of the Interior of

         12  Bosnia and Herzegovina, then your offices and your

         13  seat, your headquarters, was in the fire brigade

         14  building in Stari Vitez?

         15       A.   No, next to the fire brigade building, there

         16  is another building.  That is where we were.

         17       Q.   And what did you have in the fire brigade

         18  building?  That is the same compound, is it not?

         19       A.   No.

         20       Q.   They have nothing to do --

         21       A.   No, they are two different, two separate

         22  buildings.

         23       Q.   So what was in the fire brigade building?

         24       A.   Well, the same thing as in '91 and 1990.

         25  Those were the premises of the fire brigade coffee shop

Page 1755

          1  run by a Croat.  I don't remember his name.

          2       Q.   So let me ask you:  After the 8th of January,

          3  '93, whose were the premises?  Whose were the offices

          4  in the fire brigade in Vitez?

          5       A.   As far as I know, nobody.  I mean, of the

          6  political or the police, nobody had offices there, as

          7  far as I'm aware of.

          8       Q.   And the police that you worked for was in the

          9  building next to it?

         10       A.   It was in the building next to it.

         11       Q.   And the fire brigade, before the beginning of

         12  the conflict, were the Croats and Muslims represented

         13  on a par?

         14       A.   That you would have to ask somebody from the

         15  fire brigade because I was not a member of it.

         16       Q.   Do you know, after January '93, did Croats

         17  continue to work in the fire brigade building?

         18       A.   Well, our fire brigade was on a voluntary

         19  basis.  There were no professional firemen.

         20       Q.   But did Croats come to the fire brigade

         21  building?

         22       A.   I had no time to really look at something

         23  like that, but if they could come to our police station

         24  to apply for a passport, then I guess they also went to

         25  the fire brigade building.  I really don't know that.

Page 1756

          1       Q.   Witness, let me ask you a direct question:

          2  Did members of the BH army, on the 8th of January, '93,

          3  if you remember, or at any time, if you remember, just

          4  tell me "Yes" or "No," did they ever take over the fire

          5  brigade building from the firemen?

          6       A.   As far as I'm aware, the command of the BH

          7  army was right at the opposite end of Stari Vitez.

          8       Q.   That is true, but did they occupy this

          9  building, tell me "Yes" or "No"?

         10       A.   I don't know.  I'm not a member of the

         11  Armija, so I don't know.

         12       Q.   But you were in the building next to it?

         13       A.   Yes.

         14            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) I wish to

         15  tender into evidence another document.  Unfortunately,

         16  this document has not been translated.  We also ask for

         17  it together with the record of the on-site

         18  investigation.  But this is a short document.  Perhaps

         19  it would be best to read it out.  Perhaps we should

         20  reserve a number and we shall subsequently submit the

         21  translation.  It is only one paragraph, some five or

         22  six lines altogether.

         23            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.  Make sure there is a

         24  copy put on the ELMO for the interpreters.

         25            MR. NICE:  And for the Prosecution, if we may

Page 1757

          1  have one directly?

          2            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

          3            THE REGISTRAR: (Interpretation) This is

          4  Exhibit D6/2.

          5            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Please, could

          6  the other Defence team also get a copy?  I omitted to

          7  provide them with one.

          8            Your Honours, I'm not sure what is the

          9  fastest and simplest way to proceed, but I imagine that

         10  the best thing would be for me to read this out slowly

         11  so that we can hear the interpretation of this

         12  document.

         13            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

         14            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) The heading

         15  says "The Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the

         16  Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, the Croatian

         17  Defence Council, the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade, the 2nd

         18  Battalion, Vitez."

         19            The date, 8th of January, 1993.  That's the

         20  date that you can see.  And the document is entitled

         21  "Official Note."  The text reads as follows:

         22            "On the 8th of January, 1993, at 12.45, I

         23  was informed by the Military Police, the active force

         24  of the Military Police from Vitez, over the telephone

         25  that around 11.00, the members of the army of Bosnia

Page 1758

          1  and Herzegovina --"

          2            It is abbreviated here "the BH army."

          3            "-- took the former premises of the fire

          4  brigade of Vitez, namely, the upstairs premises and the

          5  control room for the firemen from which the alert for

          6  fires is sounded, and by virtue of that, they exercised

          7  control over the vehicles of the fire brigade too."

          8            The second paragraph reads as follows:

          9            "On the basis of information received to

         10  date, I know that all firemen are volunteers and that

         11  there are only two Muslims among them, and all the rest

         12  are Croats."

         13            Above the signature, it says:  "Notes made by

         14  the commander of the 2nd Battalion, Vitez, Anto

         15  Bertovic."

         16            Witness, tell me, please, yesterday you

         17  mentioned that at one point in time the Croats wanted

         18  to get the vehicles when there was a fire but that they

         19  were not allowed to do so.  What was all of that about?

         20       A.   When the explosive was planted in the

         21  premises of the Privredna Banka bank office in Vitez,

         22  to the best of my knowledge, Marijan Strukar, who was

         23  commander -- I don't know exactly, I was not a member

         24  of this voluntary fire brigade association, so I don't

         25  know exactly what their chain of command is -- he tried

Page 1759

          1  to take advantage of this explosion, although there

          2  were no reports stating that there was a fire down

          3  there or whatever.  He got all of the vehicles of the

          4  fire brigade out of the garages and took them down to

          5  Vitez.  That is on the basis of the information that I

          6  received.

          7            Could I please comment on this official note

          8  a bit?

          9       Q.   No.  I'm going to put questions to you and

         10  then --

         11       A.   But there are quite a few illogical things.

         12       Q.   Now you're going to answer my questions, and

         13  my colleague, the Prosecutor, can ask you whatever you

         14  wanted to be asked.

         15            Yesterday, when you started your testimony,

         16  you said that Pero Skopljak, chief of police, was

         17  bringing in weapons from Herzegovina and that, in this

         18  connection, Cosic objected to you and asked you why you

         19  Muslims were not preparing for war too.

         20       A.   Well, that was the drift of it.

         21       Q.   Exactly.  Exactly.  That was the sense in

         22  which this question was put.  Could you tell us exactly

         23  when this conversation took place, approximately?

         24       A.   On several occasions before I handed over the

         25  warehouse.

Page 1760

          1       Q.   So that's the end of '91, the beginning of

          2  '92?

          3       A.   Well, no, this was in '91.

          4       Q.   Yes, yes, '91.  So it was around '91.  Okay.

          5  Did you already see on television then or in the

          6  newspapers or did you know that the former JNA had

          7  already attacked Slovenia, the war already started in

          8  Croatia, and in the beginning of '92, there were

          9  already problems in Bosnia?  Were you aware of that

         10  fact then?

         11       A.   I lived there.

         12       Q.   You lived in Vitez, in Central Bosnia.  The

         13  war had not reached that area yet.

         14       A.   But we watched the news.

         15       Q.   So you were aware of the war that was on the

         16  threshold?

         17       A.   Well, perhaps had a wise policy been pursued,

         18  there would not have been a war.  Macedonia did not

         19  have a war.

         20       Q.   Well, that's your opinion.

         21       A.   Yes.  It's your opinion too that war was on

         22  the threshold.  We do not know then what would happen.

         23  That was the future.

         24       Q.   All right.  I agree.  Somebody had made this

         25  assessment and somebody had not.  I agree.  But were

Page 1761

          1  there any military preparations in Bosnia for the war

          2  that would come?

          3       A.   Yes.  Those states that were on the borders,

          4  that is to say, Serbia and Croatia, helped their own

          5  people.  Unfortunately, we did not have that kind of a

          6  neighbour.

          7       Q.   You were in charge of materiel and weapons at

          8  that time, including the reserve force?

          9       A.   Yes.  All the weapons and ammunition and

         10  equipment were in my hands, yes.

         11       Q.   When were they handed out?

         12       A.   When the reserve police force was mobilised.

         13  I don't know the exact date.  These documents should be

         14  in the Public Security Station if they did not destroy

         15  the documents after they kicked us out.

         16       Q.   Can you at least give us an approximate time

         17  for this?

         18       A.   There were so many events.

         19       Q.   All right.

         20            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) I would like to

         21  tender into evidence another document.  This is only a

         22  list, a list of names.  I put the headings there myself

         23  because there's nothing to translate.  There are ten

         24  words all together that should be translated, so I did

         25  this myself by hand.  Of course, this is an unofficial

Page 1762

          1  translation, and later we shall add the translation to

          2  it too.

          3            Could the usher please assist?

          4            THE REGISTRAR: (Interpreted) this is D7/2.

          5            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation)

          6       Q.   Witness, I'm just going to ask you to take a

          7  look at this list, the heading.  Unfortunately, it

          8  doesn't have a date; it doesn't have a signature.  Tell

          9  me, please, could this be one of the lists or the list

         10  or a list related to the reserve police force that you

         11  were talking about and that was issued weapons?

         12       A.   No.  No, the papers I gave out were

         13  different.

         14       Q.   No.  I did not mean the papers that you

         15  personally gave out because I could not see that on any

         16  basis.  But when you look at the names, the serial

         17  numbers, the models of weapons, could this be related

         18  to the members of the reserve police force or part of

         19  the reserve police force?

         20       A.   I cannot answer this question.  I'm not sure.

         21       Q.   So this document doesn't say a thing to you?

         22       A.   It only says to me that the Muslims were

         23  armed with these weapons, nothing else.  And who made

         24  this list, that, I do not know.  Anybody could have

         25  made this list.

Page 1763

          1       Q.   All right.

          2            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) In this

          3  connection, Your Honours, I would like the witness to

          4  assist us in another matter.  Could the usher please

          5  show him a map, put a map in front of him?

          6            THE REGISTRAR: (Interpreted) Exhibit D8/2.

          7            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation)

          8       Q.   Witness, Mr. Zlotrg, before we look at the

          9  map, in relation to this list of the reserve police,

         10  all those names or almost all those names on the list,

         11  could they be Muslim names?

         12       A.   They are all Muslim, as far as I can --

         13       Q.   All right.  The majority, we could say.

         14            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours, I

         15  think I owe you an apology.  This is my translation.

         16  It's not really a translation.  It's only here to help

         17  us.  In the glossary that the Prosecutor was so kind to

         18  give us, all the acronyms, all the abbreviations used

         19  in this document, that is, all these acronyms we see in

         20  the middle column and which were indicating the type of

         21  weapon, such as "PM" or "AP," and then in the last

         22  column before figures, these letters "BK," all these

         23  can be found in that glossary.  I think I can explain

         24  that, but I don't think there's any need for that,

         25  because these are only types of armaments, and "BK"

Page 1764

          1  means the combat set of ammunition, I believe, but you

          2  can see it for yourselves.

          3       Q.   Let us now turn back to the map.  The reserve

          4  police, and bearing in mind this list and the villages

          5  indicated there, could you use your marker --

          6            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Mr. Usher, will

          7  you please give a marker to the witness?

          8       Q.   Of course, nobody can remember all the

          9  details, but to the best of your recollection, could

         10  you please indicate places where the reserve force

         11  units should have been deployed?

         12       A.   We had only two reserve police stations.

         13  They are the premises of the Automotive Club in Vitez

         14  at the station.

         15       Q.   You mean in the town itself?

         16       A.   No, down at the railway station.

         17       Q.   Could you perhaps show us where it is because

         18  the map is rather large?  Roughly, approximately, could

         19  you just put a small red circle in that part of the

         20  town?

         21       A.   (Marks)

         22       Q.   And the second one was?

         23       A.   Just a moment.  The second one was in the

         24  elementary school in Bila, that is, at Divjak, at

         25  Mecava, which should be somewhere here, the elementary

Page 1765

          1  school.  There were only two stations of the reserve

          2  police force.

          3       Q.   Right.  This plan of activity of the reserve

          4  police force, did that plan envisage also some smaller

          5  mobile teams which would only have a base at a

          6  different road or place or somewhere?

          7       A.   I don't really know.  It was not under my

          8  competence.

          9       Q.   So you mean these places are physical bases.

         10  I'm talking about armaments, you know, the equipment?

         11       A.   To those two places, I went for equipment and

         12  armaments for members of these two police stations.  If

         13  I'm correct, the commander was Ivan Budimir, and he was

         14  the one who signed the receipt, but I can't really

         15  remember it all.

         16       Q.   But there was a distribution.

         17       A.   Yes, and there was equipment which was

         18  [indiscernible] police station.

         19       Q.   You mentioned one of the commanders --

         20            MR. NICE:  The same problem has recurred,

         21  there is no discrimination between "Question" and

         22  "Answer," and LiveNote is concerned about its ability

         23  to serve the Court and us properly, I think.

         24            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Kovacic, could you remember,

         25  and Mr. Zlotrg, could you allow time for the

Page 1766

          1  translation before you reply?

          2            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) I do

          3  apologise.  I shall do my best.

          4       Q.   Mr. Zlotrg, you heard.  We've both been

          5  reprimanded, and the problem is that we are both

          6  speaking the same language.  So if I may try to sum up

          7  where we went wrong, and will you please answer only

          8  "Yes" or "No"?

          9            From this part of the interview, it

         10  transpired that you knew that there were two places as

         11  seats of the reserve police, and those two places were

         12  marked by you on the map, and you identify them

         13  because, in view of your job, that is, the person

         14  responsible for materiel and equipment, you took

         15  weapons to them.  Is the answer "Yes"?

         16       A.   Yes.

         17       Q.   The second thing when we went too fast, you

         18  are not aware of the further distribution or deployment

         19  of groups or teams of the reserve police forces in the

         20  territory of the municipality of Vitez?

         21       A.   Correct, I don't know.

         22       Q.   So you don't know.  Thank you.  I believe you

         23  mentioned that at one of those places a reserve

         24  policeman or, rather, the leader of that group or that

         25  place was Mr. Budimir?

Page 1767

          1       A.   Yes, he was the commander of the reserve

          2  police force in the elementary school which was at

          3  Mecava, at Petar Mecava.

          4       Q.   Do you remember, how many weapons did you

          5  give them, roughly, the order of magnitude?

          6       A.   Well, half of it went to each of the

          7  stations, so I -- 50 per cent went to one station and

          8  50 per cent to the other one.

          9       Q.   But the order of magnitude?

         10       A.   It went 50-50.

         11       Q.   Who was in the other station?  I mean, what

         12  person?

         13       A.   I'm not quite sure.  I know that for a while,

         14  the commander was Mirsad Tatarevic, but whether he was

         15  still there at that time, I don't know.

         16       Q.   If it was Mirsad -- I repeat, if it was

         17  Mirsad -- do you know if he was a Muslim or a Croat?

         18       A.   Muslim.  Budimir is a Croat.  So just for

         19  parity's sake, I presume that the other one was a

         20  Muslim.

         21       Q.   Do you know, do you remember who was the

         22  commander of the reserve police force?

         23       A.   They were directly subordinated to the

         24  station commander, Mr. Saban Mahmutovic.

         25       Q.   Was it perhaps a military secret?

Page 1768

          1       A.   They wore uniforms around the town and

          2  performed police business, so it was no secret.  We are

          3  public security.

          4       Q.   Let me remind you of the name Mirhad

          5  Rebisic.  Does that name ring a bell?

          6       A.   As for the -- you mean the work?

          7       Q.   No, no, no.  I mean the post.

          8       A.   As for the police work, he had absolutely

          9  nothing to do with us and he was not employed by the

         10  Public Security Station.

         11       Q.   Yes, we know that.  But was he perhaps

         12  commander of the reserve police force?

         13       A.   I think I just told you.  Mr. Budimir and

         14  Tatarevic, they had only one commander and that was

         15  Mr. Saban Mahmutovic.

         16       Q.   Mm-hmm.  I see.  So your commander.

         17       A.   Yes.

         18       Q.   Let us go back to that disorder -- and that

         19  is my interpretation at least -- in this situation in

         20  Vitez in early 1993, and you told us something about

         21  that yesterday.

         22            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours,

         23  we should like to introduce into evidence another

         24  document.

         25            Mr. Usher, will you please help us?

Page 1769

          1            There is a translation.  Unfortunately, Judge

          2  Bennouna, the French translation is missing, and I'm

          3  quite positive that one or two have been translated

          4  into French, but we shall submit them the moment we get

          5  those translations.  It is a simple document anyway.

          6            THE REGISTRAR:  This is document D9/2.

          7            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Kovacic, it's almost half

          8  past twelve and we shall be adjourning then, so it may

          9  be convenient when you've dealt with this document.

         10            MR. KOVACIC:  Yes, certainly.  Providing, of

         11  course, Your Honours, if I may just mention that there

         12  should be a standard warning that there will not be

         13  contact between the Prosecution and the witness since I

         14  already offered the document.

         15            JUDGE MAY:  Do you want to deal -- why don't

         16  you deal with the document briefly?

         17            MR. KOVACIC:  I will really briefly and I

         18  will leave it.  As the document is, I would just ask:

         19       Q.   (Interpretation) Did you have time to look

         20  through this document?  Just to be sure that you

         21  understand the document, let me just tell you the

         22  subject of this document.

         23       A.   The problems the police faced in relation to

         24  some crimes.

         25       Q.   Is that your impression, when reading this

Page 1770

          1  document, that the author of the document is worried

          2  about the crime rate in the municipality?

          3       A.   Yes.

          4       Q.   Another question:  Is the person who

          5  undersigned this document -- unfortunately, it seems

          6  that we lost it in copying -- but is that that same

          7  Ivan Budimir who was the reserve policeman?  Is that

          8  again him?

          9       A.   I guess so because I do not know any other

         10  Ivan Budimir.

         11       Q.   So can we reasonably conclude that the

         12  reserve policeman is writing the report and is dealing

         13  with crime in the --

         14       A.   He is the commander of the reserve police

         15  force and he has not been appointed head of the police

         16  by accident and who was trained to do this kind of

         17  work.

         18       Q.   I see.  Thank you.  Is he a Croat?

         19       A.   Yes.

         20            MR. KOVACIC:  [No translation]

         21            JUDGE MAY:  Let me ask you this:  Do you

         22  anticipate being very much longer with this witness,

         23  Mr. Kovacic?

         24            MR. KOVACIC:  Your Honour, I guess I will be

         25  able to close within one hour, perhaps a little bit

Page 1771

          1  more than an hour.  But it's really difficult.  I mean,

          2  don't catch me for word.  That's my best estimate.

          3            JUDGE MAY:  Because he clearly should be able

          4  to leave as early as possible.  I don't know whether

          5  the other Defence lawyers are going to be very long

          6  with this witness.

          7            MR. STEIN:  I will be paring it down over the

          8  weekend, but at least 45 minutes.

          9            JUDGE MAY:  Thank you.  Mr. Nice?

         10            MR. NICE:  Following on yesterday's issue, it

         11  might be desirable to have a one-minute, whatever it's

         12  called, private session now, which is easy to

         13  accomplish, so that the record is complete.

         14            JUDGE MAY:  As far as the witness is

         15  concerned, he is released.  You don't want him to

         16  remain?

         17            MR. NICE:  No, certainly.

         18            JUDGE MAY:  There is one matter briefly I

         19  want to ...

         20            Mr. Zlotrg, I'm sorry you have got to remain

         21  here over a long weekend.  Could you be back on Monday

         22  at 3.00, and I hope we shall be able to finish your

         23  evidence.

         24            Remember, please, not to speak to anybody, of

         25  course, about it.  If you would like to go now?

Page 1772

          1                 (The witness withdrew)

          2            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Nice, before we go into

          3  private session, or as we go in, could you let us know

          4  this:  We asked at one stage for a revised list of

          5  witnesses, pruned down, we anticipated.  We are anxious

          6  to get to this area of our work and we need your

          7  document.  When are you likely to have it?

          8                 (Private session)

          9   (redacted)

         10   (redacted)

         11   (redacted)

         12   (redacted)

         13   (redacted)

         14   (redacted)

         15   (redacted)

         16   (redacted)

         17   (redacted)

         18   (redacted)

         19   (redacted)

         20   (redacted)

         21   (redacted)

         22   (redacted)

         23   (redacted)

         24   (redacted)

         25   (redacted)

Page 1773

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         18  --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

         19         12.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

         20         the 3rd day of May, 1999, at 3.00 p.m.