1 Wednesday, 22nd September, 1999
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case IT-95-14/2-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Dario Kordic and Mario Cerkez.
8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Stein?
9 MR. STEIN: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 WITNESS: WITNESS P [Resumed]
11 [Witness answers through interpreter]
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Stein:
13 Q. Witness P, my name is Bob Stein, and I
14 represent Dario Kordic. If there is any question that
15 I ask you that you don't understand, will you let me
17 A. Yes, fine.
18 Q. Let's start out by talking about the context
19 in which the events you described in your direct
20 examination took place. In November of 1990, the
21 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina was in place; isn't
22 that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. But by April 1992, the centre of that
25 government, Sarajevo, was under siege; isn't that
2 A. Until when?
3 Q. During -- it started in April of 1992, the
4 siege of Sarajevo; April 6, 1992.
5 A. One could say so, but I know that I went to
6 Sarajevo on the 26th of April, 1992; I entered it.
7 Q. Nonetheless, sir, would you agree that the
8 Serbian army had surrounded Sarajevo in April of 1992?
9 A. We could agree on that.
10 Q. And can we further agree that the government
11 which was centred in Sarajevo had basically ground to a
13 A. No, we cannot agree on that point, because
14 the government did not stop functioning.
15 Q. Perhaps my question was not clear. The
16 ministers and officers of the government were trapped
17 inside of Sarajevo; isn't that correct?
18 A. Yes, one could put it that way, that they
19 were in a kind of trap.
20 Q. And certainly the government was not
21 operating in the same manner in April of '92 as it was
22 in March of '92?
23 A. Probably. It was operating under more
24 difficult conditions than those that prevailed in March
1 Q. All right. And furthermore, because of what
2 was happening in Bosnia-Herzegovina, refugees started
3 to flood various areas of the country; correct?
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 Q. Now, as a result of all of these things that
6 were happening, you, on the local level, were
7 struggling with how to manage under these adverse
9 A. Yes, yes, one could put it that way.
10 Q. And part of that struggle was a political
11 struggle as to what was to happen on the local level in
12 terms of local affairs and local government?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Another way of saying the same thing,
15 perhaps, is to say there was almost a power vacuum; do
16 you understand that term?
17 A. Whether one could say there was a power
18 vacuum, or was it rather an attempt to suspend the
19 government, which had been functioning until then, on
20 the part of one party. In this case these were efforts
21 made by the HDZ.
22 Q. Sir, if I understand your question -- let me
23 rephrase my question. Your party, the HDZ, were all
24 struggling to figure out how to function in the summer
25 of 1992 in the absence of an active central government?
1 A. Our party was endeavouring to preserve
2 government such as it was until then. Of course,
3 connections with the central government were poor at
4 that time.
5 Q. And one of the issues during the summer of
6 1992 is whether there would be a BiH at all, and what
7 it would look like after the war; right?
8 A. That was present at that time.
9 Q. And if I understand your positions correctly,
11 (redacted) during that particular time frame, the summer
12 of 1992?
13 A. One could put it that way.
14 Q. And do I also take it, sir, that regardless
15 of your position, you had no military power?
16 A. No, I did not have any military power.
17 Q. At one point in time, Mr. Refik Lendo became
18 appointed as head of the military in your area; is that
20 A. Yes, Refik Lendo was appointed on the 25th of
21 May, 1992, as commander of the Territorial Defence
22 staff in Novi Travnik.
23 Q. And he had been a former JNA major; isn't
24 that right?
25 A. As far as I know, yes, he was a major.
1 Q. He had also been in the Yugoslav intelligence
2 service, the KOS?
3 A. I'm not aware of those things. I don't
5 Q. But we can agree, can we not, that the times
6 called out for a strong Muslim military leader?
7 A. Those times required strong men in general.
8 Q. Fair enough. One other issue that I want to
9 resolve: By April 1992, we can agree, can we not, that
10 one-third of your country, one-third of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina -- the Serb one-third, and their
12 party -- boycotted the referendum on independence;
13 isn't that correct?
14 A. Yes, that is correct. A very small number of
15 Serbs took part in the referendum on the independence
16 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
17 Q. The Serb attitude during the summer of 1992
18 -- that is, the Bosnian Serb attitude -- is that they
19 wanted to remain part of Serbia; isn't that right?
20 A. As far as I know, yes.
21 Q. Now, we've heard a great deal of testimony
22 relative to Bratstvo from you and other witnesses. I
23 want to turn your attention to some of those issues.
24 The Croat complaint relative to the arms from
25 Bratstvo was that those arms were being given to the
1 JNA, who were then fighting in Croatia against the
2 Republic of Croatia; isn't that correct?
3 A. Yes, that is how it was, to the best of my
5 Q. By the summer of 1992, the JNA were using
6 arms from Bratstvo not only against the Croats in
7 Croatia but against the Croats and Muslims in Bosnia?
8 A. We can agree on that.
9 Q. As a result of this kind of use or misuse,
10 depending on your perspective, of arms from Bratstvo,
11 can we agree that in April of 1992 there were
12 24 truckloads of arms that were sent from Bratstvo to
13 the TO?
14 A. I'm not aware of that, of the 24 truckloads
15 that were sent to the Territorial Defence or where.
16 Q. Well, perhaps I have the number wrong, but in
17 April of 1992, there were arms escorted through the
18 Lasva Valley by the chief of police of Novi Travnik,
19 and he was escorted, or the head of the convoy, by a
20 Muslim. Do you recall that?
21 A. I do remember that something like that
22 happened, but I know that the weapons were taken both
23 for the needs of the Croats and for the needs of the
24 Muslims, the Bosniaks.
25 Q. Who were both fighting the Serbs.
1 A. Until then, yes.
2 Q. And just to clarify, the arms went to Visoko;
3 isn't that right?
4 A. I don't know where the arms went. I saw
5 documents which said that some went to Kiseljak, to
6 Croats and Bosniaks; to Vitez; Busovaca; Travnik. I
7 was a witness of this. I saw this. I'm not aware that
8 the weapons went to Visoko.
9 Q. You saw the video or you saw the shipment,
10 the convoy itself? Which?
11 A. I saw the papers, the documents, and I saw
12 the people doing the driving. I saw a document, for
13 instance, signed by Minister Jerko Doko, and the
14 weapons were to have been taken over by Mr. Ivica
15 Santic for the needs of the Territorial Defence of
16 Vitez, Busovaca, Kiseljak, Kresevo. Therefore, all
17 those weapons went for the Croats because he took them
19 Q. And the head of the convoy was a Muslim, was
20 he not, named Cengic?
21 A. Regarding this convoy led by Cengic, I don't
22 know, but if Cengic did come, I know that Zlatan
23 Civcija, as chief of police, would escort the convoy.
24 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Now, it's fair enough,
25 certainly by the summer or by March 1992, the former
1 Yugoslavia no longer existed; correct?
2 A. One could agree on that.
3 Q. And that the federal laws were no longer
4 binding on you and the people in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
5 A. I think so.
6 Q. Now, there's been testimony in the Tribunal
7 about these rocket launchers. Those ultimately ended
8 up in Croat hands after some negotiations; isn't that
10 A. I did not witness those negotiations, and I
11 don't know where those rocket launchers ended up. I am
12 not familiar with the negotiations over that.
13 Q. Well, I'm confused. You testified yesterday
14 about those rocket launchers. Was your testimony based
15 on what you saw or what someone else told you?
16 A. No. I do know that those rocket launchers
17 were taken away, but I don't know where they went. I
18 know they went towards Herzegovina, towards Croatia.
19 Those are the VBRs.
20 Q. Perhaps my question was less than clear.
21 Were you aware of the negotiations that led up to those
22 rocket launchers being taken from the Bratstvo
24 A. I was not aware of those negotiations. I
25 know that Kordic came to my office in the evening with
1 certain people and with his escort, and he finished the
2 job in Bratstvo. He drove away the weapons. Where he
3 took them, I don't know.
4 Q. Sir --
5 A. As far as I know, they were taken towards
6 Herzegovina and Croatia.
7 Q. Not my question. I'm not concerned where
8 they were taken. Short and simple is: You don't know
9 how it was that Dario Kordic came into possession of
10 those rocket launchers, whether it was by negotiation,
11 liberation, or any other way; right?
12 A. He came to my office. From my office he went
13 to Bratstvo and took off those weapons.
14 MR. STEIN: The Court's attention is drawn to
15 the testimony of Witness C, and there's another witness
16 right after him that amplified this issue. I'm not
17 going to go into it.
18 Q. Were you perhaps aware, sir, that at the end
19 of 1992 there was negotiations, at a very high level,
20 between the Muslims and the Croats, regarding not only
21 the payment for the rocket launchers but the payment
22 for the arms that were in the convoy we talked about
23 earlier? Were you aware of those negotiations, sir?
24 A. I did not know about those negotiations, nor
25 do I know where they were conducted.
1 Q. So as to whether or not there was an
2 accounting balancing the rocket launchers and the
3 convoy's arms, you're unaware; is that right, sir?
4 A. There may have been such negotiations, but I
5 was not a part of them.
6 Q. Have you heard about those, sir, from any
7 other source?
8 A. I heard later on that there were some
9 negotiations. Where and when and in what period, I
10 don't know, but I heard about this sometime in 1994,
11 that in the Defence Ministry there were discussions as
12 to how payment should be made to the factory for
13 everything that had been taken away.
14 Q. So I take your answer correctly, in 1994 you
15 learned that at the Defence Ministry there had been
16 some negotiations and some reconciliations relative to
17 the payment for the rocket launchers; is that right?
18 A. I don't know what the final outcome was, but
19 I was told that there were some talks. How they ended,
20 I don't know.
21 Q. Very good. You mentioned when Mr. Kordic
22 came to Bratstvo, he was dressed in a uniform. What
23 you meant was some sort of camouflage?
24 A. Yes, in a camouflage uniform he came to see
1 Q. Later on you saw him at his headquarters. He
2 was also wearing camouflage; is that right?
3 A. Yes, in Tisovac, exactly.
4 Q. You never saw Mr. Kordic in a military
5 uniform -- and by "military uniform," I mean something
6 blue or red -- a formal military uniform; you only saw
7 him in camouflage. Is that right?
8 A. In a camouflage uniform. I saw him very
9 frequently wearing a camouflage uniform.
10 Q. So when you use the term "camouflage," you
11 use the term "uniform" interchangeably; correct?
12 A. Yes. That is a military uniform. It was a
13 camouflage uniform with HVO insignia.
14 Q. Lots of people, by the way, wore camouflage
15 during 1992 and 1993, who were not associated with the
16 military; right?
17 A. Mostly this indicated military membership.
18 Q. That's not my question. My question was:
19 Even though people were not in the military, many chose
20 to wear camouflage: Correct, or incorrect?
21 A. I couldn't agree with you. Camouflage
22 uniforms were mostly worn by soldiers. There were
24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Excuse me,
25 Mr. Stein. I should like to ask the witness whether,
1 on this camouflage, there were insignia or indication
2 of any military rank which Dario Kordic may have worn,
3 indicating the rank he had in the army.
4 A. I do not remember seeing the man with an
5 indication of any rank. I remember Kostroman, his
6 friend, who wore patches with the indication "Zenga,"
7 the national guards. That, I did see in my office.
8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 MR. STEIN:
10 Q. I don't want to burden this particular issue
11 much. There has been testimony that even women in
12 heels wore camouflage --
13 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Stein, the witness has
15 MR. STEIN: Very good, sir.
16 Q. Did you yourself ever wear camouflage?
17 A. Are you asking me?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Yes, I, too, wore a camouflage uniform, but I
20 was not a member of any military formations.
21 Q. Now, you mentioned seeing some documents at
22 the Grand Cafe, and there was discussion at that point
23 in time -- this is June of '92 -- about who would be in
24 charge, the HVO or your party; do you recall that part
25 of your testimony?
1 A. Yes, I do, and I remember the day when I was
2 in the Grand Cafe; and when I was shown that document,
3 I was concerned about it.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Stein?
5 MR. STEIN: Yes, sir.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness has said that he
9 wore a camouflage uniform although he was not a member
10 of the military. I want to find out why he would wear
11 a camouflage uniform even though he wasn't a member of
12 the military.
13 A. Sometimes I would put it on for purely
14 practical reasons, because I had to go on foot to
15 headquarters in Novi Travnik, and this was a two- to
16 two-and-a-half-hour walk from my house, and I had to go
17 through the woods, through mud, so I wore it for
18 practical reasons.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: What are those practical
21 A. This was only rarely, because if you wore a
22 normal suit, branches would tear it as you passed
23 through the woods. And for easier maintenance. That
24 was the only reason.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
1 MR. STEIN:
2 Q. Where did you get the uniform?
3 A. I got the uniform from a friend of mine, or
4 from my brother, who was then a member of the TO
6 Q. So you got it from the military?
7 A. I used mostly my brother's uniform, as I just
9 Q. All right. I want to get back to this
10 document that you were shown. How long a chance did
11 you have to look at it?
12 A. I could have looked at it for as long as I
13 wanted. It was shown to me; it was on the table in
14 front of me in the cafe. I could read it clearly and
15 see what it was about.
16 Q. How long did you choose to look at it?
17 A. I read it through, understood the message of
18 the document, and I examined it. I don't remember for
19 how long. We sat there and had coffee; maybe for about
20 half an hour.
21 Q. But you don't recall who signed it?
22 A. I don't remember exactly. I know it was the
23 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, and my opinion was
24 that it was signed by the president of the Croatian
25 Community of Herceg-Bosna in those days, Mr. Boban. It
1 may have also been by Dario Kordic, but I do not
2 remember that.
3 Q. So now you're just guessing as to who it was
4 signed by; is that right, sir?
5 A. No, I don't know exactly who signed it. I
6 know it was one of the two; that is for sure.
7 Q. In any event, you told the Court that in
8 those days, the political and military leadership of
9 the HDZ was together. Is that your opinion?
10 A. Yes, that is my opinion, that it was one and
11 the same thing.
12 Q. That opinion is not based on any study of the
13 organisational documents of the HDZ; correct?
14 A. That is my opinion, on the basis of my own
15 experiences under those authorities.
16 Q. That's what I'm asking you about, sir. You
17 never saw any documents showing the structure of the
18 HDZ; correct?
19 A. I looked at the constitution or the statute,
20 whatever it was called, of the Croatian Community of
21 Herceg-Bosna. I did read that, and I saw how the
22 authorities were organised, and I saw that that was how
23 it was.
24 Q. When did you read that document?
25 A. I think I read it sometime at the end of '92
1 or the beginning of '93.
2 Q. And when was that document created,
3 regardless of when you read it?
4 A. I think it was at the beginning of May 1992.
5 I really do not remember, but I know that I had the
6 document in my hands and that I read it.
7 Q. And as to whether or not that structure
8 changed or was modified, those were issues that you
9 were not privy to; correct, sir?
10 A. I know that the people changed in the
11 municipal HVO in Novi Travnik. I saw those changes. I
12 know that the first president was Zvonko Grabovac.
13 After that it was Jozo Sekic who took over as president
14 of the HVO.
15 Q. But my question is not with the people. The
16 organisation, the documents, the internal workings of
17 that organisation were unknown to you, then and now?
18 A. I am not familiar with that.
19 Q. Now, you mentioned in May of '92 you were
20 sent by civil authorities to talk to Dario Kordic.
22 A. Yes, because I personally knew Hasan Efendic,
23 the TO staff commander, and Munir Jahic, who was the
24 Minister of Urban Affairs at the time. They managed to
25 get through to me and asked me to go to Busovaca and
1 see what had happened.
2 Q. They wanted you to go to Busovaca to find out
3 what happened in Busovaca? Is that your answer?
4 A. Yes. They wanted me to go to Dario Kordic to
5 talk to him about what had happened.
6 Q. And then to report back to them?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. Now, before you got there, you
9 indicated you were stopped. My question is, were there
10 other checkpoints -- let me rephrase the question.
11 There were other checkpoints between Novi
12 Travnik and Busovaca, were there not?
13 A. I don't recall where they all were, and I
14 don't even recall whether there were checkpoints. I
15 only remember that one checkpoint, where I could not
16 pass without control.
17 Q. All right. Now, as to you going to see
18 Mr. Kordic, you don't know what Mr. Kordic said to the
19 soldier who was stopping you, or whether it was
20 Mr. Kordic at all who was speaking with him; isn't that
22 A. I know, and I heard clearly, that the soldier
23 to whom I introduced myself and to whom I had given my
24 personal ID had announced me, and on the other end, I
25 heard the response clearly, the words of another
1 person, another soldier: "Send over the Turk," cursing
2 my mother, "so that we can cut his throat." And they
3 said that if Dario Kordic had guaranteed for me, that I
4 could pass.
5 Q. So whether these soldiers bowed to
6 Mr. Kordic's civil influence or other authority, you
7 can't say, can you?
8 A. It was clearly a part of the military
9 organisation. They wore military uniforms and they had
10 military communication equipment.
11 Q. Perhaps my question wasn't clear. As to
12 whether or not Kordic himself got on the phone, or the
13 radio, you have no knowledge?
14 A. I did not talk to him. I only received
15 permission to come to see him in Tisovac. The soldiers
16 were the ones who were talking. What I heard was
17 spoken by soldiers.
18 Q. And whether those soldiers were allowing you
19 to pass because of an order from Mr. Kordic or a
20 request, you don't know which; correct?
21 A. I know. After they received the permission
22 for me to pass through, I did pass through and went
23 over there.
24 Q. I'll move on.
25 Mr. Kordic met with you for about an hour;
2 A. Somewhere around there.
3 Q. And he told you what had happened in
4 Busovaca; correct?
5 A. Yes, that is correct.
6 Q. And he told you about the conflict between
7 the Muslims and the Croats in Busovaca, didn't he?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. He said that the problem -- or at least one
10 of the problems -- between the Muslims and the
11 Croats was the issue of arms from Kaonik; isn't that
13 A. I don't recall those issues, the arms from
14 Kaonik. I know that Muslims are not willing to place
15 themselves under the HVO authority, and that this is
16 what had to happen. He also mentioned some extremists
17 who did not mean well to the Croatian population in
18 Busovaca. This is how he called them, and also this is
19 how Ignac Kostroman, who was there with him, referred
20 to them.
21 Q. They also told you that the Muslims had
22 reneged on an arms deal for a 50-50 split from the
23 Kaonik JNA location; isn't that right?
24 A. I don't know of that. I do not recall this.
25 Q. In any event, Mr. Kordic was very candid,
1 very open with you, about all the events in Busovaca
2 that led to what happened there?
3 A. I believe that our conversation was very open
4 and very candid.
5 Q. And at the end of that conversation,
6 Mr. Kordic essentially said, "We're going to look out
7 for ourselves and our Croat brothers in
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina"; correct?
9 A. Yes, but he also said that the Croatian
10 Community of Herceg-Bosna had to be established
11 regardless of whether we liked it or not.
12 Q. Let's just take the first part. You agree
13 with me that he said his interest was his people;
15 A. Yes. Yes.
16 Q. Similarly, you can agree, at that time, your
17 interest was your people?
18 A. Right. But it was the interest of the other
19 people; in other words, we did not only -- we were not
20 only concerned about our own population.
21 Q. You, however, as a representative of your
22 political party, had to be concerned with the Muslim
23 interests in Novi Travnik; isn't that right?
24 A. I think I have already stated that in my
25 previous answer.
1 Q. What was going to happen in this power vacuum
2 essentially was the Croats would take care of their
3 people; you'd take care of the interest of your people;
4 you would meet, negotiate, and hopefully resolve
5 things, all against the background of the Serbs
6 surrounding you; isn't that right?
7 A. That is approximately how it went.
8 Q. Now, on May 28th, you mentioned you saw
9 another document. Do you recall your testimony
10 relative to that, the May 28th document?
11 A. Yes, I recall it. This is a document signed
12 by Mr. Kordic, and it regards the appointment of the
13 HVO authority in Travnik, headed by Mr. Grabovac.
14 Q. Did you keep a copy of that document?
15 A. I copied this document which I saw at the
16 centre for information. I made a copy for myself. I
17 know most of the people in that HVO government. I
18 cannot name all of them now and all the positions, but
19 I knew exactly who was in which position at the time.
20 Q. When you say "made a copy," is that a
21 photocopy or a handwritten copy?
22 A. No, no, no. A handwritten copy. I made
24 Q. What happened to those notes?
25 A. I have that document in my possession at
2 Q. But not with you here in The Hague?
3 A. No, I don't. These were my personal notes.
4 Q. In your statement to the investigators from
5 the Tribunal, and I'm referencing page 3, paragraph --
6 the first full -- paragraph 2, the second full
7 paragraph on page 3, you make no mention of this
8 document. Any reason why?
9 A. I did not mention this document to the
10 investigators, but I had given -- I had mentioned it
11 and I gave all the names. I gave the full list of all
12 the names of the HVO government.
13 Q. All right. In any event, at that point in
14 time, that's 1992 May, there was also a similar
15 government for the Muslims; isn't that right?
16 A. No. The government for Muslims at that time
17 did not exist. We insisted and asked that the
18 presidency of the municipality be functioning; in other
19 words, that the government be in operation, such as
20 were elected during the democratic elections in 1990.
21 Q. Well, under those elections, the HDZ was the
22 majority party; correct?
23 A. Yes, that is correct.
24 Q. And under that theory, if I understand it,
25 they would pick the government; isn't that right?
1 A. No, they could not do so, because we had a
2 democratic government, and out of 60 deputies, at that
3 time the HDZ had 20. In other words, HDZ could not
4 form its own government without other parties. There
5 were SDA, SPS, SDS, SDP. There were representatives of
6 Serbs, six of them.
7 Q. It's been appropriately commented this is not
8 a case about politics, so I don't want to go deeply
9 into this. Let me go back to my first question. When
10 did you start your own government?
11 A. The Bosniaks established their own government
12 in late August or early September in 1992.
13 Q. In 1992.
14 A. I was not a representative of that
15 government. I had no -- I held no position in it.
16 Q. So by the end of the summer or early fall of
17 1992, in Novi Travnik, there were two governments; is
18 that correct?
19 A. Yes, that is correct.
20 Q. I want to move forward to June 19. Who was
21 the head of the -- who was the Muslim head of
22 propaganda and information?
23 A. I don't recall that we had a head for
24 propaganda and information in that period around
25 19 June 1992. I don't know whether the TO headquarters
1 had that position or not. I really could not say.
2 There was no such position in the civilian bodies.
3 Q. As to the military bodies, you wouldn't know
4 whether there was that position?
5 A. No, I don't know this, not for that period.
6 Q. Let's get back to this June 1992 meeting.
7 There were three political representatives for your
8 side; correct?
9 A. June 1992, I remember that it was myself, I
10 think Muharem Haskic, and I don't know who else was
11 with me. That was the morning, and I also know who was
12 there in the afternoon. On 19 June, two meetings were
13 held: one in Jozo Sekic's office, the president of the
14 municipality; and the other one with Zvonimir Grabovac,
15 the HVO head.
16 Q. Yes. I'm talking about the afternoon
17 meeting. In the afternoon meeting, from your side were
18 three civilian representatives and two military
19 representatives; correct?
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 Q. And on the Croat side, the HDZ, there were
22 three political representatives and two military
23 representatives; isn't that right?
24 A. There were five altogether.
25 Q. Separated out political and military, right,
1 just like you?
2 A. I believe that that was so.
3 Q. Well, I want to be very clear on this.
4 According to your statement: "The HDZ also had three
5 political reps," and you name them, "and two military
6 reps," and then you name them. Three and two; civil,
7 military. Right?
8 A. As I said, I believe that this was so. I
9 believe that that is how it was.
10 Q. Again, this is a question that I pondered
11 many times: In the middle of this civil war in June
12 1992, whose laws were you following, if any?
13 A. We do not agree on the fact that in June 1992
14 there was a civil war. The laws that we followed were
15 the laws of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and
16 the laws which were adopted from the former Federal
17 Republic of Yugoslavia and the former Socialist
18 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
19 Q. That was the Muslim position. The Croats
20 took a different position, didn't they?
21 A. That was obviously the case.
22 Q. Again, during these negotiations, as I
23 understand it, in this area where the last formal
24 legitimate legal election resulted in the HDZ having
25 the majority party, the HDZ took the position that
1 based on that, you and your party should be under them;
3 A. Those were precisely their positions, that
4 they are the main party, they were the majority
5 population, and that we needed to subordinate ourselves
6 to them.
7 Q. And in other areas, based on your knowledge
8 of what was going on, where they were the minority
9 party, they were willing to submit themselves to the TO
10 and be under them; isn't that right?
11 A. No. That is not so. That was not so.
12 Q. Let me ask you a question. You mentioned in
13 your direct-examination that you actually called
14 General Merdan. Is that right?
15 A. Yes, that is correct.
16 Q. You had access to his phone or Motorola and
17 just picked them up and called him?
18 A. I was sitting together with the Croatian
19 negotiating team, and I had access to a telephone
20 there. After I heard through the centre for
21 information that the regional TO staff from Zenica had
22 given instructions to the TO to subordinate themselves
23 to the HVO, then I asked to be -- that I be given
24 contact, and after I reached Dzemal Merdan he said that
25 this is not so, and we wanted to ask for an
1 unconditional cessation of fire.
2 Q. Now, regardless of the fact that you had
3 phone access to General Merdan, that access didn't make
4 you part of the military suddenly, did it?
5 JUDGE MAY: I'm not sure that's a matter that
6 the witness can answer.
7 MR. STEIN: May I rephrase, Judge? Thank
9 Q. Just because you had military contacts, you
10 didn't have a military position at that time?
11 A. No, I had no military position at the time.
14 Q. And because of that position you wanted to
15 know what the military was doing, and they you, but
16 that didn't mean that you had command authority over
17 the military; right?
18 A. No, I had no command authority over the
20 Q. It's also true that you wanted to know what
21 was going on on the military side, and they wanted to
22 know what was going on on the civil side?
23 A. That is quite logical.
24 Q. Now, I want to talk about the soldiers that
25 you talked with in June of 1992, and I want to make
1 sure that we're talking about the same thing. Do you
2 claim that you yourself spoke to ten HVO soldiers in
3 June of 1992?
4 A. I did not talk to all ten of them, but I
5 talked to the majority among the group.
6 Q. Yourself?
7 A. Yes, myself.
8 Q. What kind of shape were they in?
9 A. I thought that they were in very good shape,
10 but they were a bit scared.
11 Q. Let me turn your attention to the statement
12 that you gave to the Tribunal investigators, but before
13 I ask that, did these men give written statements?
14 A. I didn't understand this question.
15 Q. I'll withdraw the question and make it
16 easier. On page 5 of your statement to the
17 investigators from the Tribunal, you say, and I quote,
18 and this is from the third full paragraph:
19 "During the first attack in June of 1992,
20 approximately ten HVO soldiers from Busovaca were
21 arrested. They provided statements in which they claim
22 that Kordic sent soldiers from Busovaca to Novi
23 Travnik. I believe our local 708th Brigade or
24 department of security would have these statements.
25 The police chief, Sejbid Corbic [phoen], might have the
2 Now, I ask you again, sir, isn't it a fact
3 that the statements were in writing and given to
4 someone else?
5 A. From my conversation with them, this was the
6 answer that I received, and I assumed that the people
7 in the Territorial Defence had taken their written
8 statements at that time. So this is my opinion, and
9 this is why I stated it that way.
10 Q. And you never told the investigators from the
11 Tribunal that you, yourself, spoke with the soldiers;
12 isn't that correct?
13 A. I did say that I had spoken to them, and I
14 still say that I personally had spoken to them.
15 Q. And the investigator from the Tribunal didn't
16 put it down in your statement; is that probably what
18 A. You just read out that I had talked to them.
19 It is written in the statement.
20 Q. All right. I want to talk about Marinko
21 Marelja -- but I'm reminded, before I do: Can you give
22 us the names of the soldiers with whom you spoke?
23 A. The soldiers from Busovaca? I don't know any
24 of those names. I know they were all sort of shortish.
25 Q. Were you able to determine their rank or
1 their unit?
2 A. No, I could not determine it. I only saw
3 that they were wearing camouflage uniforms and that
4 they were scared, because they had been there for about
5 ten hours by then. They had spent the whole night
7 Q. Again, getting back to my question: Marinko
8 Marelja, his various positions have been described in
9 your direct testimony. We can agree, can we not, that
10 he, like you, was involved with the civil authorities
11 of government; correct?
12 A. Yes, we can agree on that. I did this as a
13 professional, and he at that time was doing it as a
14 volunteer, on a voluntary basis.
15 Q. And he, like you, had no control over the
16 military; isn't that right?
17 A. Formally, he was not in the military. I am
18 not aware of him being a member of the armed forces.
19 Q. Now, we can also agree that in June, July,
20 and August of 1992, Muslim refugees started coming into
21 Novi Travnik?
22 A. We can agree that in this period -- that is,
23 May, June, July -- May, June, July, and then August
24 through October -- refugees had stayed in Novi Travnik,
25 not only the Muslims who had fled, but also Croats.
1 They were in the Sports Hall and also in the
3 Q. And we can also agree that the Muslim
4 refugees were registered by the government of Novi
5 Travnik as citizens of Novi Travnik, given
6 identification cards, et cetera; correct?
7 A. We couldn't agree on that. We could agree
8 that they were registered, because there was a
9 coordinating committee who was taking care of that, and
10 this was -- it was appointed by the joint government
11 headed by Jozo Sekic. So this was a joint body which
12 cared for the refugees who were streaming in.
13 Q. And by "registered," do you mean registered
14 as citizens of Novi Travnik?
15 A. No, they were registered as displaced persons
16 in that period. Nobody gave them any ID cards;
17 therefore, there could be no talk about the change of
18 the population structure in favour of the Muslims in
19 that period.
20 Q. Well, you hit on something I was going to ask
21 you: If, indeed, they had been registered as citizens
22 of Novi Travnik, that would have changed the political
23 lay of the land; isn't that right?
24 A. I have already answered that question. That
25 was not the case. A joint body was in charge about
1 those people, and they registered them.
2 Q. I heard your answer, and I understand it. My
3 question, though, is: If in fact they had been
4 registered, that would have changed the political lay
5 of the land; correct?
6 A. None of us know how many Muslims and how many
7 Croats, or rather how many Bosniak displaced persons
8 and how many Croat displaced persons, arrived. I do
9 not have those figures, but I assume that these figures
10 can be checked in the municipality even today.
11 Q. In any event, sir, we need not debate or hang
12 on here much longer. My question really boils down
13 to: The refugees were given homes that the Serbs had
14 vacated in your town, Novi Travnik, during this period
15 of time; isn't that right?
16 A. No. That is not right at all. The refugees
17 from Novi Travnik mainly went to Croatia and to third
19 Q. Can we also agree that the refugees, the
20 Muslim refugees who began coming into Novi Travnik
21 during this period of time, started their own police
23 A. No, we cannot agree about that because it is
24 not true.
25 Q. Is it fair to say, however, by the end of the
1 summer of 1992, Novi Travnik was divided; there was a
2 Croat side and there was a Muslim side?
3 A. I said that already with regard to the
4 authorities. The government was formed sometime in
5 August 1992. We cannot say that Novi Travnik was
6 totally divided in that time frame. It became
7 completely divided sometime in June or July 1993.
8 Q. My question wasn't precise. In June or July
9 of 1993, the geography, the physical lay of the land in
10 Novi Travnik, was such that there was a Croat side and
11 a Muslim side; is that right? Is that what I just
12 heard you say?
13 A. Yes. By then, that was how it was. There
14 was a Croatian and a Bosniak side within the framework
15 of the territory of Novi Travnik municipality.
16 Q. And do I take it that the two gas stations in
17 Novi Travnik, the two petrol stations, were in the
18 Croat side?
19 A. Yes. The two petrol stations were left on
20 the Croat side.
21 Q. And of course one of the issues in June of
22 1992 was access to petrol?
23 A. Not in June '92. There was no question of
24 access to petrol. At least, I'm not aware of it, and I
25 was active and present there at the time.
1 Q. Did that become an issue later?
2 A. I was told when I returned from Zagreb that
3 there were problems during the conflict in October '92,
4 allegedly something to do with the petrol station.
5 Q. And I take it these things were told to you
6 by others, and you weren't present during that point of
7 time, in which case I'll move on.
8 A. Yes, I only heard this from others. I wasn't
9 there, so I can't talk about it.
10 Q. Now, I want to talk about the rally in which
11 Mr. Kordic was present. First of all, you were invited
12 to that rally?
13 A. Yes, I was invited to that rally.
14 Q. There was nothing secret about that rally;
15 everyone could come and see. Right?
16 A. Yes, everyone could come and see.
17 Q. And what Mr. Kordic said was that the HVO was
18 being restructured; isn't that right? Changed?
19 A. Yes, he spoke about the organisation of the
21 Q. And as I understand it, the TO also, from
22 time to time, would administer oaths, loyalty oaths, to
23 its members; isn't that right?
24 A. The Territorial Defence, two or three days
25 prior to that, had its own meeting in the same place.
1 Q. Same place, same kind of meeting?
2 A. Yes, the same place, same place. In front of
3 the municipality building in Novi Travnik.
4 Q. Same kind of oath-taking?
5 A. Certainly of a different content.
6 Q. Of course the words were different, but the
7 effect was the same; correct, sir?
8 A. We could agree about that.
9 Q. You were told that the military people
10 surrounding Dario Kordic were members of the Jokers
11 unit; correct?
12 A. Yes. That is what I was told by Croats who
13 were there, when I asked. The people carrying flags
14 reminded me of the people who were in Novi Travnik that
15 we have spoken about who had been arrested. They were
16 all shortish, and I was told that they were Kordic's
18 Q. On behalf of the short people in the world,
19 I'm -- my question to you, sir: The person who told
20 you, do you know the name of the individual who told
21 you that this unit was in fact called the Jokers?
22 A. Several people who were with me. For
23 example, like President Sekic, Ovlatovic [phoen], who
24 later on went with us to the hotel.
25 This is funny, but indeed, those people were
1 short in stature, so they reminded me of the people who
2 had been arrested previously.
3 Q. Were you aware, sir, that in fact the Jokers
4 unit had not been established till January of 1993?
5 A. No, I didn't know that. I don't know that.
6 I know what I was told: that those were Kordic's men.
7 Q. Were you told they were Kordic's men, or were
8 you specifically told the name of the unit?
9 A. Kordic's. Kordic's men.
10 Q. Fair enough. So you were told these were
11 Kordic's men, not that the name of the unit was the
12 Jokers; is that right?
13 A. I don't remember whether they gave me the
14 name of the unit. I'm not sure about that.
15 Q. Thank you very much.
16 On or about October 13th, 1992, Alija
17 Izetbegovic visited Novi Travnik, did he not?
18 A. I know that he came in that period of time.
19 Q. And he visited only Muslims; right?
20 A. I wasn't present at that meeting, and I don't
21 know where and whom he visited.
22 Q. In your travels and in your positions, did
23 you hear that Mr. Izetbegovic's visit in October of
24 1992 included any visits to any Croats?
25 A. I later heard that he was in the Territorial
1 Defence headquarters and that he spoke there with
2 representatives. I wasn't present, so I don't know.
3 Q. As far as you know, therefore, although the
4 president was in Travnik [sic], he spoke to the TO and
5 to Muslims, and you know of no instances in which he
6 spoke to the HDZ or the Croats; is that right?
7 A. I do not know whether he had any such talks.
8 As I said, I wasn't there. I wasn't in town, in fact,
9 I think, so I don't know these things.
10 Q. And for the record, I've been appropriately
11 corrected: I've been using "Travnik," and I've been
12 meaning "Novi Travnik," and that's what we've been
13 talking about.
14 By the way, are you related by blood or by
15 marriage to President Izetbegovic?
16 A. No, I'm not related to that family in any
17 way, by blood or marriage.
18 Q. Now, as to seeing a tape of Mr. Kordic in
19 Novi Travnik when you came back from Zagreb, first,
20 what were you doing in Zagreb?
21 A. I went to Minister Munir Jahic, who invited
22 me to take over some documents from him. He was in a
23 hotel in Zagreb. According to what I saw, he left upon
24 orders of the Prime Minister, Jure Pelivan. The
25 documents I took over had to do with the accommodation
1 of refugees in Bosnia.
2 Q. Minister Jahic is the Bosnian Minister for
4 A. For urban planning and the environment.
5 Q. And he's a Muslim?
6 A. Yes. Jahic Munir.
7 Q. The tape you saw was a tape that someone did
8 with a hand camera or that was taken from television or
9 what, the video cassette that you mentioned?
10 A. I do not remember exactly where it was
11 filmed, but I think it must have been done by an
12 amateur, but I saw it personally, asking Refik Lendo
13 for a delivery.
14 Q. As to whether that tape was made on
15 October 23rd, 22nd, 21st, or 20th, you don't know?
16 A. I don't know when the tape was made, because
17 I arrived in Novi Travnik from Zagreb on the 24th of
18 October. It was a Saturday.
19 Q. All right. Let me move on. Do you consider
20 yourself to have friendly connections with Dario
22 A. I cannot say that I was on friendly terms
23 with Dario Kordic, but I think we knew one another
24 quite well. I think we met sometime in 1991, but I
25 can't exactly remember where.
1 Q. Well, the reason I ask is you've had coffee
2 with Mr. Kordic; correct?
3 A. Yes, yes. I had coffee with Mr. Kordic and
4 with Marelja. A cafe I often went to was on the way
5 from my apartment to the municipality building where I
6 worked. But in view of the fact that Kordic was on
7 exceptional good terms with Marinko Marelja, we would
8 meet often.
9 Q. But my point is: Simply because you were
10 seen having coffee with Marelja and/or Kordic didn't
11 mean that you were all fast, good friends, did it?
12 A. I don't think you could make such a
14 Q. Therefore, we can agree, can we not, that
15 even if Mr. Kordic and Mr. Marelja had coffee and were
16 seen together, that doesn't necessarily make them fast,
17 good friends?
18 A. Those are my assumptions.
19 Q. Now, I want to turn your attention to the end
20 of your testimony, in which you said that certain
21 gentlemen said frequently that they would always have
22 to ask of their superiors or their commanders when you
23 were negotiating. Do you remember that part, when the
24 Judge was asking you some questions? Remember that
1 A. Yes. Yes, I do remember.
2 Q. You were negotiating with the gentlemen, as
3 you say, who were on the civil side of what was
4 happening in Bosnia; isn't that right? You weren't
5 negotiating with the military?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And --
8 A. Yes. I mostly sought negotiators in members
9 of the HDZ of Novi Travnik.
10 Q. These individuals told you they had to report
11 to their higher level authority on the civil side;
13 A. Yes. That was a frequent answer.
14 Q. And those three men that you mentioned were
15 all civilians. Mr. Sekic -- and the transcript doesn't
16 say the other names -- Zoran Matosevic, they're all
17 civilian --
18 A. Zoran Matosevic, not Mahmutovic.
19 Q. I'm sorry. Either I mispronounced it or it
20 was written wrong. It doesn't matter. They're all
21 civil authorities; right?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. During the conflict in the summer of 1992 and
24 into 1993, Novi Travnik had no water; isn't that
1 A. When?
2 Q. During the summer of 1992, into 1993, Novi
3 Travnik had no water?
4 A. I think there were occasional problems, but
5 Novi Travnik is having problems with water even today,
6 when there's no conflict, and the officials are well
7 aware of that, especially the part of the town in which
8 Bosniaks are living today.
9 Q. During this same conflict, Novi Travnik had
10 no electricity?
11 A. Yes, that is so. Mostly there was no
13 Q. And no telephone?
14 A. We didn't have any.
15 Q. Can we also agree that the access to the
16 water, the control of the water, was from the Muslim
17 side of town?
18 A. Novi Travnik is supplied from two sources of
19 water, and both of them were, conditionally speaking,
20 under the control of the Bosniaks.
21 Q. The same thing with the electricity, under
22 the control of the Bosniaks?
23 A. No. I couldn't really tell.
24 Q. And the telephones, under control of the
1 A. I think the telephone was under the control
2 of the Croats, because the post office was on the Croat
3 side. The telephone was under Croat control.
4 Q. Let me finish this theme, and that is:
5 During the conflict, it's fair to say that the schools
6 in the Lasva Valley were closed?
7 A. Mostly they were closed, yes. I don't
8 remember exactly when they started working again in our
10 Q. Fair enough. During the time they were
11 closed, is it fair to say the Muslims sent their
12 children to special Muslim schools?
13 A. No, that cannot be said, because I am not
14 aware of such schools. In my municipality, there were
15 no such schools. I don't know what schools you're
16 referring to.
17 MR. STEIN: I'm almost at the end, for Your
18 Honours' edification. I have two more areas I'd like
19 to go into, if I may, before the break.
20 Q. The first is -- again, I think we've covered
21 this. You yourself, in your position and because of
22 your position, have never given a military order to a
23 military unit; right?
24 A. No, I have never given such an order, nor did
25 I have the authority to do that.
1 Q. Certain members of the military, in response
2 to a request from you, may do what you ask, and, in
3 fact, have done what you've asked; isn't that right?
4 A. Mostly I didn't make any such requests. I
5 didn't do anything that I was not authorised and
6 responsible for.
7 Q. My last question is this: Can we also agree
8 that the line that divided your town, Novi Travnik,
9 during the conflict in 1993, still divides your town?
10 There's still a Croat side and there's still a Muslim
12 A. In Novi Travnik today, there is a unified
13 government established on the basis of the constitution
14 of the republic and the canton. There is a municipal
15 council in Novi Travnik presided by a Bosniak, and
16 there is a municipal chief who is a Croat. He is the
17 executive and he has control of the executive and the
18 legislative. I think those divisions are gradually
19 being overcome with the return of people to their
20 former homes.
21 Q. My fault for being --
22 A. So the power is in these two institutions.
23 Q. My fault for being imprecise. On the ground
24 in Novi Travnik today, in one were to walk into the
25 streets, there would be a Croat side and a Bosniak
1 side; correct?
2 A. That would not be visible for people coming
3 from the outside and who don't know the town. Those
4 who know where the lines were still remember them, but
5 people are coming back and those lines are being lost.
6 Q. Again, forgive me for being imprecise, but
7 the point remains: The Bosniaks live on one side; the
8 Croats live on the other.
9 A. Mostly that is so, but gradually that is
10 being overcome. I think I was quite clear. As people
11 are returning to their homes from which they were
12 evicted, those lines are disappearing.
13 MR. STEIN: Thank you very much, Your
14 Honours. I have nothing more.
15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, how long are you
16 likely to be with this witness?
17 MR. KOVACIC: I think no longer than half an
18 hour, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MAY: We'll take the adjournment now.
20 We'll sit again at half past 11.00.
21 Mr. Kovacic, if you could stick to the half
22 hour, we could get on with another witness.
23 Mr. Lopez-Terres, if you could keep
24 re-examination to an absolute minimum, it will save
1 MR. STEIN: May we ask who the next witness
2 is, without revealing anything, or at least in the
3 recess tell us?
4 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you can do it in the
5 usual way. Very well. Half past 11.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.59 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.
8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kovacic.
9 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
10 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Witness P, my apologies for
12 having to address you in this manner, but this is for
13 your own protection. I am a Defence attorney for
14 Mr. Mario Cerkez. My name is Bozidar Kovacic, and
15 along with my colleague, Mr. Mikulicic, we represent
16 this client.
17 Towards the end of your evidence yesterday,
18 when asked by the Prosecutor, you said that in the
19 early months of 1993, in Novi Travnik, there were some
20 units from Herzegovina called Bruno Busic; is that
22 A. All these men were known as Herzegovinians,
23 and later on, we learned that they belonged to the
24 Bruno Busic unit.
25 Q. Then you also said that in Novi Travnik there
1 was a brigade called Stjepan Tomasevic which was active
2 there; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that is correct. In Novi Travnik there
4 was also a brigade which bore the name of Stjepan
5 Tomasevic. It was a local brigade, and its commander
6 at the time was Mario Cerkez.
7 Q. Let's take it one step at a time, please.
8 Can we agree that the Bruno Busic Brigade came from
9 outside and that the Stjepan Tomasevic was a local
11 A. Yes, we can agree on that.
12 Q. Earlier, you gave a statement to the
13 investigators of the Tribunal, on 13 September 1995,
14 and this statement has been mentioned here today. Let
15 me try to refresh your memory. Towards the very end of
16 it, you said, and I quote: "I am not sure about the
17 chain of command of the HVO military, but I know that
18 the following people were HVO commanders in Novi
19 Travnik." And then you mention some names: Ivica
20 Markovic, Mario Cerkez, Borivoj Malbasic, and Zeljko
22 A. No, it should be Zeljko Sabljic.
23 Q. Very well; it was misspelled.
24 And then you also added, "I am not sure of
25 when these people acted as commanders." So from this,
1 it would follow that in 1995, that you mentioned names
2 of people who were in positions of command, but you did
3 not tell specifically who was commander at what time.
4 This is what would follow from the statement; do you
5 agree with me?
6 A. Yes, but today I --
7 Q. Excuse me, but would you please just answer
8 the question: That would follow from the statement?
9 A. I named them as I knew, but I approximately
10 know who was commander in which period.
11 Q. Very well. And yesterday, during your
12 examination, you said that Cerkez was the commander of
13 the Tomasevic Brigade, as you said, in the early months
14 of 1993. And from the previous sentences, it would
15 mean that this was January or February of 1993. My
16 question to you is: How do you recall this better and
17 more specifically now than when you gave the statement
18 to the investigators?
19 A. I just spoke more specifically. I recalled
20 it then and I recall it now, that in this period, Mario
21 Cerkez was the commander, because I met him at least on
22 two occasions in early 1993. We attended certain
23 meetings together. I remember the meeting which ended
24 by the commander of the brigade I think had left with
25 them to a restaurant, Oskar, where he was arrested and
1 taken to Busovaca.
2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I would like
3 the usher to show the witness D22/2, which is related
4 to Witness F's evidence.
5 Q. Witness P, will you please first focus on the
6 line where the date is; that is, that was entered by
7 hand. And then, please, if you can focus then on
8 signatures, there are four signatories. Your signature
9 is the second?
10 A. Yes, but there were other meetings that
11 followed this where he was present, not here.
12 Q. If you would just please wait for the
13 question, let us first lay the ground for it. This was
14 one of the meetings which you had mentioned; is that
16 A. No, this was not one of the two meetings.
17 Q. Do you recall this meeting from which this
18 report was issued?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. So we can conclude that representatives of
21 both parties were present -- that is, both the HDZ and
22 the SDA parties -- as well as representatives of both
23 military organisations, the HVO and the BiH?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. (redacted)
1 (redacted); and for the Novi
2 Travnik HVO, Borivoj Malbasic signed?
3 A. Yes, that is correct.
4 Q. So on 13 January, we can conclude that
5 Borivoj Malbasic was the commander of the HVO brigade.
6 You said that Cerkez was not present at that meeting?
7 A. It is obvious that Cerkez was not present in
8 this meeting.
9 Q. You just used the word "obvious." What do
10 you mean by that?
11 A. He was not at this meeting, as can be seen
12 from this document. I know that Cerkez succeeded
13 Borivoj Malbasic. I don't know which period, but I
14 know that it was before March 1993. And during this
15 period, I attended at least two meetings with him.
16 Q. So you don't know with respect to January and
18 A. I don't know about January. I don't know
19 exactly when he was appointed.
20 Q. What about February?
21 A. I think that he was appointed sometime in
23 Q. Witness Ismet Sahinovic told us here that
24 Cerkez did attend the meeting on 13 January.
25 A. I don't recall whether he was in that
2 Q. Very well. Thank you. But while we're at
3 this meeting, you will agree with me that the main
4 conflicts in Novi Travnik between the army and the HVO,
5 one was on 19 June '92, and then 12th October 1992, and
6 then January to July, there was a third?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. From your evidence, in early 1993 and late
9 1992, there were tensions, and there were a number of
10 incidents; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, that is correct.
12 Q. We said that on the Croatian side, the side
13 of the HVO, that there were units which arrived from
14 outside of Novi Travnik?
15 A. Yes, everybody knows this.
16 Q. On the Bosniak side, were there also units
17 which came from outside?
18 A. I don't know that there was a single unit
19 other than the TO units and the BH army who were there.
20 Q. Were units from Krajina there, the so-called
22 A. From what I know, Krajisnici were in Travnik.
23 Q. What about Ravno and Rostovo?
24 A. That is in Novi Travnik municipality.
25 Q. What is Ravno Rostovo? Ravno Rostovo is a
2 A. I don't know that Krajisnici were there in
3 that period.
4 Q. You don't know that in late 1992 and early
5 1993, the Krajisnici were present there?
6 A. I know that they were present in Travnik, but
7 not in Novi Travnik.
8 Q. If I were to tell you specifically that this
9 had to do with the 7th Muslim Brigade, which was
10 stationed in the motel in Ravno Rostovo, would that
11 refresh your memory?
12 A. The 7th Muslim Brigade was not present in the
13 territory of the Novi Travnik municipality.
14 Q. Very well. Let's return to this area. You
15 agree that there were tensions around?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you do not agree that there were also
18 extremists on the Muslim side?
19 A. I don't know what you're referring to, what
20 extremists you are referring to.
21 Q. A moment ago you agreed that there were
22 extremists on both sides.
23 A. No, that is not what I said.
24 Q. Were there extremists on the Croat side?
25 A. There were people who killed and terrorised.
1 I don't know that there were such people on our side,
2 who persecuted people of Croat ethnic background.
3 Q. Who kidnapped four HVO officers later on?
4 A. I don't know this. I don't know what you're
5 referring to.
6 Q. Let's go back to the document you have in
7 front of you. Could you please read point 1 of this.
8 A. "The parties, the SDA and the HDZ, take
9 distance from all the public announcements produced by
10 the media controlled by either of the ethnic groups."
11 Q. Why was this statement made? What did this
12 refer to?
13 A. This had to do with the public announcements
14 produced by the HDZ or the HVO regarding certain issues
15 and certain positions in relation to Novi Travnik, and
16 also had to do with certain announcements that came
17 from the ABiH headquarters.
18 Q. My understanding is that they're trying to
19 calm things down and take some distance from that?
20 A. That is how I understand it, too.
21 Q. Let's move on to point 2.
22 A. "All participants in this meeting take
23 distance from all the excess situations and believe
24 that strict measures should be taken against
25 perpetrators of these incidents on both sides."
1 Q. Would you agree with me that both sides
2 agreed that there are people who are causing these
3 incidents on both sides?
4 A. Yes, it is obvious, because representatives
5 of both sides are present there.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Can both counsel and
7 witness slow down a little bit, because it is hard to
9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, there is a request
10 from the interpreters to slow down. And Witness P,
11 could you slow down too, please.
12 Thank you.
13 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Witness P, my fault. The problem that we
15 have is we understand each other well, so we engage in
16 very fast exchanges.
17 I'm going to try to be more mindful of it.
18 In order not to take too much time, I think
19 the document speaks for itself. There are further
20 measures mentioned that both sides take upon themselves
21 to do in order to calm down the situation.
22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] With the
23 usher's assistance, could I have Exhibit D2/2 shown to
24 the witness?
25 Q. Witness P, would you first please look at the
1 heading? The document was issued on the
2 13th January, in Mostar, by the main headquarters. It
3 was on the same day when this public announcement was
4 also drafted and, according to my information, several
5 hours after you agreed on that previous announcement.
6 This is obviously a document which obligates
7 the HVO units to actively engage in cooperation. Have
8 you seen such a document?
9 A. I see it for the first time.
10 Q. Had you heard of it?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Very well. Thank you. At the beginning of
13 the conflict in Novi Travnik, in early summer or before
14 the confrontation in June, you also mentioned that HOS
15 was present, H-O-S, in Novi Travnik?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Would you please explain who HOS was?
18 A. These were men wearing black uniforms. We
19 knew them as such, and they also presented themselves
20 as members of HOS. I know certain of them by names.
21 Suse, and Deba, and some others, Burce [phoen].
22 Q. HOS was not a member of the HVO in Novi
23 Travnik at that time?
24 A. I don't know whether HOS was ever a part of
25 the HVO.
1 Q. So you agree with me that HOS was an
2 independent force?
3 A. I could not agree with it, nor can I deny
4 it. I don't know how they functioned. I don't know
5 whether they were part of the HVO, but I know that they
6 had their own uniforms.
7 Q. The general view was that they were rather
8 extremist; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, that was the general view. Also, a
10 prevailing view was that the HVO and the HOS were very
12 Q. But you don't know whether one was part of
13 the other?
14 A. I don't know what the chain of command was.
15 Q. Would you agree with me that in late 1992 and
16 early 1993, HOS was a dominant force in that --
17 A. I'm sorry, I'm not sure that you got the
18 years right.
19 Q. It was 1992, 1993.
20 A. HOS was never the dominant force in Novi
22 Q. Would you agree that HOS was mostly
23 responsible for all the incidents?
24 A. No, I do not agree with that.
25 Q. Let me take you back to the evidence you gave
1 yesterday and with which we started. After having said
2 that Bruno Busic Brigade was in town and that there was
3 also the local brigade, Stjepan Tomasevic, you then
4 said that Cerkez was the commander. And this is what
5 you confirmed now; you said that he was the commander
6 of the HVO. What were you referring to? That he was
7 commander of both of these brigades, the Stjepan
8 Tomasevic and Bruno Busic?
9 A. At that time he represented to us that he was
10 the first and most responsible for all the forces
11 wearing uniforms in Novi Travnik.
12 Q. So are you implying that he was also -- that
13 he had authority over the brigade which was not from
15 A. He was the only one who came to the
17 Q. You mean at the time when Cerkez was the
19 A. Yes. He was commander before April 15.
20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I
21 have a document here which indisputably shows the date
22 when Cerkez took over as commander of the Stjepan
23 Tomasevic Brigade.
24 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment, Mr. Kovacic. At
25 this stage you're examining the witness. Is this a
1 document which the witness would have seen?
2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I believe that
3 he was not in a position to have seen it.
4 JUDGE MAY: There seems little point putting
5 it to him. In due course you can produce it to us as
6 part of your case or put it to a witness who may have
7 seen it, but at the moment the witness has given his
8 evidence, you dispute it. It would seem there's little
9 point going on with the argument.
10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] May I be
11 allowed to use that document as my own source of
12 knowledge, for me to be able to quote it regarding the
13 date, the number, the contents, and to ask the witness
14 whether he can comment on it?
15 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
16 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Q. Witness P, I have a document issued by the
18 command of the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade,
19 number 423/93, and later on, as His Honour has said, it
20 will be produced. It was issued on the 8th of
21 February, 1993, and the heading is "The takeover of the
22 command position of the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade," and
23 it is signed at the end of the document by Borivoje
24 Malbsasic and Mario Cerkez as the person taking over
25 the duties of commander.
1 Do you still claim that in the course of
2 January, Mario Cerkez was the main HVO commander?
3 A. I said that I did not remember when Mario
4 Cerkez came as commander to Novi Travnik. I know that
5 in October 1992, in the conflict, the commander was
6 Vlado Juric. After that came Borivoje Malbsasic from
7 Vares, and then the next successor was Mario Cerkez.
8 Q. I wish to show you that we're talking about
9 the command of the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade.
10 JUDGE MAY: Look, I wonder if there's much
11 point in going on with this. The witness has given his
12 evidence, you've challenged it, you've put the document
13 to him, Mr. Kovacic. I don't think we're going to get
14 much further. The witness has said he doesn't remember
15 the precise date.
16 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Is it true that at the end
18 of 1992, the period we're talking about, end of 1992,
19 beginning of 1993, the BH army and the HVO had agreed
20 upon divided sectors on the front towards the Serbs on
21 Mount Vlasic?
22 A. In talks held in December 1992, which I
23 attended together with Mr. Thebault Blaskic and General
24 Slobodan Praljak, I could have heard that. I was also
25 able to hear this from members of the BH army, who were
1 saying that the HVO was doing nothing on those lines.
2 Q. Can I take it, then, that the BH army and the
3 HVO were reproaching one another: who was doing more
4 or less on the front lines?
5 A. Yes, I think something like that, although I
6 can't be more precise.
7 Q. So regardless of their merits, who did more
8 or less on the front, can we agree that both armies
9 were there and that they held the front towards the
11 A. We can agree that they held the front lines.
12 Q. Can we also agree that there was a certain
13 degree of cooperation between them for them to be able
14 to hold those lines?
15 A. I'm not competent to comment on these
17 Q. You didn't hear about it?
18 A. I have already said what I heard.
19 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I should like
20 to tender a document and then ask a question to the
21 witness. I have reason to believe that the witness may
22 have seen it on an occasion.
23 JUDGE MAY: Put the document to the witness
24 and see if he saw it or not.
25 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Witness P, will you please tell me first --
2 this is a letter addressed to the commander of the
3 BH army in Novi Travnik. I have been told that it was
4 addressed to the mentioned gentleman,
5 Mr. Valenta [sic], and that the political leadership of
6 the Bosniaks in Novi Travnik were informed of it as a
7 sign of an improvement of relations. Have you ever
8 seen this document or heard about it?
9 A. I never saw it, nor did I hear about it.
10 What I can say is that the 23rd of Sijecanj --
11 Q. If that is January.
12 A. Yes, January. Refik Lendo at that time was
13 not the commander of the army. Bisljim Zurapi was the
14 commander. He took over sometime in December of 1992,
15 I think the 17th, and he took over command of the unit.
16 Q. Did you hear that at that time Malbasic and
17 Zurapi managed significantly to improve their
18 cooperation along the front against the Serbs?
19 A. I heard and I personally believe that that
20 was so.
21 Q. Would you agree that both Zurapi and Malbasic
22 were cooperative and moderate people?
23 A. I agree.
24 Q. Can we agree, then, that at least in this
25 period, the end of January, relations between the
1 armies, at least as regards the common struggle against
2 the aggressor, had significantly improved?
3 A. I think that was so.
4 Q. May I draw your attention to this document
5 which was signed by Malbasic again as the command [sic]
6 under the name "Command" of the Stjepan Tomasevic
8 A. I see that.
9 Q. So there is no HVO there as some kind of a
10 general umbrella force?
11 A. Yes, there is, up in the heading, "Croatian
12 Defence Council." The brigade command. So the brigade
13 as part of the HVO, as part of the armed forces of the
15 Q. So we agree that Stjepan Tomasevic, judging
16 by this document, was one of the units within the HVO?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be
20 numbered D38/2.
21 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honours, just a little
22 error in the transcript. Probably it will be
23 corrected, but just in case, page 60, line 7, instead
24 of "Lendo," the name "Valenta" was recorded. We were
25 talking about "Lendo."
1 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Tell us, please, Mr. P -- let us go back to
4 HOS for a few more minutes, which was present in Novi
5 Travnik. Do you know where their command post was?
6 A. I couldn't say with precision where their
7 command post was.
8 Q. We heard a witness here, Witness C, who told
9 us that HOS was based in the hotel in Novi Travnik --
10 that was where their command post was -- and the HVO in
11 the old hotel in Novi Travnik.
12 A. I know that they were all somewhere around
13 there, either the old hotel or the new hotel. Whether
14 they had any other locales, I can't recall just now.
15 Q. All right. Talking about the commanders, a
16 witness, witness Ismet Sahinovic, who was head of
17 security in Bratstvo, you know him?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. He told us that Mario Cerkez was deputy
20 commander of Malbasic.
21 A. I don't know what position he held. He may
22 have held that position, but I do not recall when he
23 came to that meeting I mentioned earlier on.
24 Q. Let us go back to 1991 for a moment.
25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, I don't want to
1 interrupt you unnecessarily, but we are going over a
2 great deal of ground here, some of which has been the
3 subject of evidence already. You told us you would be
4 half an hour. You've been about 40 minutes, I think.
5 Could we move on as expeditiously as we can?
6 MR. KOVACIC: I will do my best, Your Honour,
7 but some answers surprised me, and I used the documents
8 and spent too much time probably. I'll be
10 Q. [Interpretation] Let us go back briefly to
11 the period while (redacted)
12 (redacted). Do you recall,
13 from that period, that at the level of the republic --
14 and this applied to other areas of Yugoslavia -- a
15 decision had been taken whereby weapons had been
16 virtually taken away from the Territorial Defence; that
17 is, the Territorial Defence had to hand in their
19 A. I'm aware of that decision, but exactly when
20 it was taken, I don't know. But certainly before the
21 aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina.
22 Q. Do you know that your municipality, like the
23 other surrounding ones, like Vitez and Busovaca and
24 Kiseljak and the entire surroundings, did hand in their
25 weapons to the army, as requested by the army, and that
1 in your particular case it was stored at Slimena?
2 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.
3 Q. After that, when in 1992, as you told us, the
4 TO was divided along ethnic lines, that organisation
5 started all over from the beginning on both sides?
6 A. Yes. It could be said like that.
7 Q. They obviously tried to arm themselves?
8 A. Certainly.
9 Q. We spoke about the weapons from Bratstvo. We
10 mentioned some other sources as well. Do you recall
11 that the municipalities managed to restore some of the
12 weapons that had been stored on the basis of that
13 previous decision with the JNA?
14 A. Yes. I know that at Slimena there was an
15 attack -- let me put it in those words -- on the
16 warehouse and that both members of the HVO and the TO
17 armed themselves from that source.
18 Q. We heard that the attack was led by Mr. Filip
19 Filipovic, whom you mentioned.
20 A. Yes, I heard that.
21 Q. You mentioned him as a person who helped
23 A. Yes. I know him personally, and I think that
24 he did.
25 Q. Did you ever hear that the assistant of Filip
1 Filipovic, in that operation, was the accused Mario
3 A. I am not aware of that.
4 Q. Very well. Thank you, Witness, for your
6 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honours, I'm closing now.
7 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes,
8 Mr. Lopez-Terres, do you have any questions?
9 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] A few
10 questions for the witness, Mr. President, and I would
11 like to take advantage of this time to say that at
12 least one document by the Defence carried the name of
13 the witness, and perhaps that document needs to be
14 protected or placed under seal.
15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I'm sure that can be done.
16 Re-examined by Mr. Lopez-Terres:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness P, a moment ago
18 we referred to the situation in Bosnia in April 1992.
19 There was reference to the government in Sarajevo,
20 which was under siege, and the power vacuum that
21 existed at the time. You know that the Croatian
22 Community of Herceg-Bosna was created in November 1991?
23 A. Yes, I do know that.
24 Q. In that period, was there a power vacuum in
25 Bosnia and did the government function normally or
2 A. In November there was no power vacuum at the
3 level of the republic or at the municipality level.
4 Q. Thank you. In the month of May 1992, you
5 went to Busovaca upon the request of the commander of
6 the Territorial Defence in Sarajevo and the minister
7 for town planning and the environment, who contacted
8 you for you to visit Dario Kordic and to discuss with
9 him the events in Busovaca.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So you had contacts with military
12 representatives, official military representatives, as
13 well as with the civil representatives of the
14 government in Sarajevo?
15 A. Yes. In those days, I could still be in
16 touch with them, and this was possible until sometime
17 -- the 18th or 19th of June, 1992. All this could be
18 done by telephone.
19 Q. Thank you. It was also stated in the course
20 of your cross-examination that the Serb part of Bosnia
21 did not participate in the referendum, that it
22 boycotted the referendum. I think that it was
23 indicated by the Defence counsel that the referendum
24 took place in April 1992. Would you agree with me that
25 the referendum in fact took place on the 29th of
1 February and the 1st of March, 1992?
2 A. Yes, exactly so. The referendum on the
3 independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina was held on the 29th
4 of February and the 1st of March. It was a Saturday
5 and a Sunday.
6 Q. Thank you. Regarding the Bratstvo factory
7 that was referred to on a number of occasions, is it
8 not true that many members of the HVO government of
9 Novi Travnik municipality were former employees or
10 current employees of the Bratstvo factory?
11 A. I think they were, yes.
12 Q. Mr. Sekic himself was an employee in the
13 Bratstvo factory?
14 A. Yes, he came from Bratstvo as president of
15 the municipality, Sekic.
16 Q. You were asked about uniforms that Mr. Kordic
17 wore, and you answered that you saw him in camouflage
18 uniforms. Then you were asked whether there was an
19 indication of rank. You remember that?
20 A. Yes, I remember the uniform, but I don't
21 remember seeing the rank, in Mr. Kordic's case.
22 Q. You had occasion to meet Colonel Blaskic in
23 the period that we have discussed. Do you remember
24 whether Colonel Blaskic himself bore any insignia of
25 rank on his uniform?
1 A. I cannot remember, but he probably did,
2 because he worked exclusively in the military. I
3 personally do not remember which rank he had.
4 Q. Regarding Mr. Marinko Marelja, is it true
5 that Mr. Marelja was an official of the police in Novi
6 Travnik before engaging in the catering business of the
7 Grand Cafe?
8 A. As far as I know, he was never head of the
9 police; he was an ordinary police officer. And as far
10 as I know, he was thrown out of the police before the
12 Q. Do you know why?
13 A. Not exactly. I do not know exactly why.
14 Q. He was fired from the police; is that what
15 you wanted to say?
16 A. Yes, certainly.
17 Q. This morning there was a reference to the
18 visit of President Izetbegovic in October 1992 in
19 Central Bosnia. I'm not quite sure that I understood
20 quite well where this visit took place. Was it
21 Travnik, or Novi Travnik?
22 A. As far as I know, in that period, he came to
23 Novi Travnik. But I wasn't present at that meeting, so
24 I don't know what took place.
25 Q. I asked you this question because I think in
1 the transcript there was reference to Travnik and not
2 Novi Travnik, so I wanted to make sure.
3 Two last points, Witness P. You were shown a
4 document a moment ago, Defence Document D22, dated the
5 13th of January, 1993. It is a document signed by
6 General Petkovic.
7 A. Yes. I have that document in front of me.
8 Q. Do you see the name of Novi Travnik mentioned
9 among the towns listed among those to which this order
10 is addressed?
11 A. Unfortunately, I do not see the name of Novi
12 Travnik here.
13 Q. All the towns listed are towns other than
14 Novi Travnik; do we agree?
15 A. Yes. That is so.
16 Q. Do you know, Witness P, that two days after
17 this order that we are referring to, the same general,
18 General Petkovic, issued an order that all units of the
19 BiH army in cantons 3, 8, and 10 should go under the
20 command of the HVO?
21 A. I'm not familiar with that. I do not recall
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A last question, regarding Mr. Borivoje
25 Malbasic. I think you indicated he was a moderate?
1 A. That is how he seemed to me.
2 Q. Do you know why he was dismissed from his
3 position, in February 1993, according to the document
4 shown to us?
5 A. No, really, I do not know that.
6 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I have no
7 further questions, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
9 Witness P, that concludes your evidence.
10 Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to
11 give it. You are now released.
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 MS. SOMERS: Before calling the next witness,
15 I would ask for just a moment to ask some guidance from
16 the Court on some preliminary matters. The witness who
17 will be testifying next has not sought in advance any
18 measures, but I want to caution the Court that he is
19 feeling not well. Apparently he has a chronic
20 condition -- perhaps -- would this be more appropriate
21 in private session?
22 JUDGE MAY: Are we in private session?
23 THE REGISTRAR: No, we are in open session.
24 JUDGE MAY: Right. We will go into private
1 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.
2 [Private session]
13 page 7349 redacted – private session
22 [Open session]
23 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
1 WITNESS: SULEJMAN KAVAZOVIC
2 [Witness answers through interpreter]
3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kavazovic, take a seat.
4 A. Thank you.
5 JUDGE MAY: Now, I understand that you may
6 not be feeling very well; thank you for coming to give
7 your evidence anyway. We will try to deal with matters
8 as quickly as we can, and if possible, get through your
9 evidence today in order to get you away. It may take a
10 little longer. But if you at any stage feel unwell,
11 just say so, and we'll take what measures we can; and
12 certainly, if you want to adjourn for any reason, we
13 will do that. But I've asked counsel to be as quick as
14 they can, both in examination-in-chief and
16 Yes, Ms. Somers.
17 Examined by Ms. Somers:
18 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, you were born on the 15th of
19 July, 1969, in Vrhovine, in Vitez municipality; is that
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. By ethnicity you are a Bosniak, and your
23 religious preference is Islam?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. You have completed your education through
1 military high school in Novi Belgrade?
2 A. Yes. I finished at the People's University
3 called Bozidar Adzija.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... officer
5 of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
6 A. Yes, I'm currently an officer of the army of
7 the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
8 Q. And prior to that you were an officer -- or
9 you were in the JNA; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. At what point did you leave the JNA? And
12 explain why.
13 JUDGE MAY: Just let me interrupt, please.
14 MS. SOMERS: Yes. I'm sorry.
15 JUDGE MAY: What rank did you hold in the
17 A. I was a lieutenant.
18 MS. SOMERS:
19 Q. When did you leave the JNA?
20 A. On 18 February 1992.
21 Q. Was there some change that motivated your
23 A. Yes. In May 1991, the JNA was changed. The
24 five-pointed star was replaced by a tricolour flag
25 which was worn both on the shoulder and sleeves.
1 Q. Was there a symbol called the kokarda that
2 was also used on the uniform?
3 A. Yes. The reserve units from Montenegro and
4 those who were facing the front line near Vukovar, they
5 wore that. They were the reserve forces of the former
7 Q. Is that a uniquely Serb symbol?
8 A. Most probably it is.
9 Q. What did you do after you left the JNA?
10 Where did you go?
11 A. I left the JNA to go to Bosnia, to Vitez. I
12 came back home to the village of Vrhovine, and then I
13 was mobilised to the Vitez municipality TO
14 headquarters. That was on the 6th April, 1992.
15 Q. Did you assume the position of chief of
16 transportation at some point?
17 A. At first I was a regular soldier, and then I
18 was appointed to the military police force escort team
19 of Hakija Cengic, the commander of the TO. And then in
20 July I was appointed chief of transportation of the TO
21 staff in Vitez.
22 Q. Did members of the HVO try to get you to join
23 the HVO?
24 A. A colleague of mine who was in the staff of
25 the TO, named Vlatko Males, called me one day, and we
1 talked, and he invited me to transfer to the HVO, but I
3 Q. And did something happen to you, as a result
4 of that refusal, on the 7th of September in '92?
5 A. On 7 September 1992, I was arrested by four
6 members of the Ludvig Pavlovic unit, and I was
7 questioned by Vlado Santic.
8 Q. Who was Vlado Santic?
9 A. Vlado Santic was commander of a part of the
10 military police of the HVO.
11 Q. Were any other units present at the
13 A. There were members wearing camouflage
14 uniforms who belonged to the Ludvig Pavlovic unit.
15 Q. And what is the Ludvig Pavlovic unit, if you
16 can tell us?
17 A. I don't know what they are, but I know that
18 this unit came from Herzegovina to the Vitez area, and
19 that it was stationed in Dubravica, in the school
20 building, numbering somewhere between 120, 150 men.
21 Q. How did you identify these people as members
22 of the Ludvig Pavlovic unit?
23 A. They had insignia on the right sleeve. It
24 was a leaf with a sabre and crossed lightning bolts,
25 and it said "Ludvig Pavlovic."
1 MS. SOMERS: I'm going to ask the usher to
2 please present Exhibit Z2562,1.
3 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, on the document in front of
4 you, do you recognise the symbol?
5 A. Yes, I recognise it. That is the insignia
6 which they wore on their left shoulder.
7 Q. That is what you saw on 7 September 1992, in
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you ultimately released after the
12 A. Yes, I was released. I was taken back to the
13 TO command, and I continued to work at the TO
15 Q. You mentioned a gentleman named Hakija
16 Cengic. In May of 1992, what was your relationship to
17 Mr. Cengic?
18 A. In May 1992, I was a personal bodyguard of
19 Hakija Cengic, and we had a close relationship.
20 Q. Looking back to about the 20th of May, '92,
21 did you, in the course of your duties, find out about
22 the death of an individual named Samir Trako, and how
23 did you find out?
24 A. I personally did not learn of Samir Trako,
25 but we received information at the TO headquarters from
1 Samir's relative. The relative's name was Senad Petak,
2 who had been with him, that he was killed in a bowling
3 alley of the Hotel Vitez on the night between the 20th
4 and the 21st of May.
5 Q. Did Mr. Cengic take some action in response
6 to this?
7 A. Mr. Cengic then called a meeting and arranged
8 for a meeting with Mario Cerkez, in the Hotel Vitez, in
9 order to find out the reason for the killing of Samir
11 Q. Do you know or did you know then why Mario
12 Cerkez was the person with whom he wanted to meet?
13 A. No, I did not know that then. I only
14 received an order from the Commander Cengic, that Anto
15 Frundzija, Major Cengic and I got to the meeting around
16 1.30 a.m. in Hotel Vitez to see what had happened and
17 what was the reason for the young man's killing.
18 Q. Who was Anto Frundzija?
19 A. Anto Frundzija was a commander officer of
20 the military police units at the HVO. He worked with
21 me. He was my school friend. He was actually with the
22 Territorial Defence staff at the time.
23 Q. At that time. Thank you. What time did you
24 arrive at the Hotel Vitez?
25 A. We arrived sometime around 1.30 a.m., to the
1 Hotel Vitez, to the meeting which had been arranged
2 between Mario Cerkez and Hakija Cengic.
3 Q. What time did Mr. Cerkez arrive?
4 A. I don't know when he arrived, but we were
5 brought into the hotel. I don't know the room number.
6 I don't know what conference room was earmarked for
7 conferences. I know that Mario Cerkez arrived with six
8 men, and among them I recognised Niko Krizanac. He was
9 the only one whom I recognised. They were all wearing
10 black uniforms.
11 Then Cerkez, Anto Frundzija, and Hakija
12 Cengic entered that room, and I stayed outside as some
13 kind of security for Commander Cengic, together with
14 these six HOS members.
15 Q. You indicated that they were all wearing
16 black uniforms. Did that include Mario Cerkez?
17 A. Yes. He too was wearing it.
18 Q. Did you notice any distinctive patches or
19 emblems on the uniforms of the six and Mr. Cerkez?
20 A. While I was outside, as the meeting was
21 taking place, these six members had the HOS insignia,
22 and they also had rosary beads on the epaulets. They
23 were rosaries with a cross.
24 Q. Did Mario Cerkez also have a HOS emblem?
25 A. Yes, he also had a HOS emblem.
1 MS. SOMERS: I will ask the usher to please
2 show Exhibit Z2116.
3 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, looking at the piece of paper
4 in front of you, what is depicted on that piece of
6 A. This piece of paper depicts a HOS emblem
7 which was worn at the time, and it also says, "For
8 Homeland Ready," and then it has "HSP," which I guess
9 stands for "Croatian Party of Right."
10 Q. Was this the emblem that you saw on the black
11 uniform worn by Mario Cerkez and the six other people
12 you've identified?
13 A. Yes. That is the emblem which I saw, I saw
14 that night.
15 Q. You indicated that the six other individuals
16 in the black uniforms waited outside but that
17 Mr. Cerkez went inside along with Mr. Cengic. Did you
18 come in proximity, in close proximity, of Mr. Cerkez?
19 JUDGE MAY: I wonder how much this is going
20 to help anybody. He had a drink. Is that the point?
21 MS. SOMERS: I'd ask to make the point, if I
23 JUDGE MAY: Well, what is the point?
24 MS. SOMERS: Just that there was the beverage
25 smell. I think the record --
1 JUDGE MAY: I don't think we're much
2 impressed with that. Yes. It was 1.30 in the morning
3 and he'd had a drink. Yes. Let's go on.
4 MS. SOMERS:
5 Q. On the 20th of October, 1992, were you in
7 A. Yes. I was in Visoko to visit a unit which
8 was then at the front line against the Serbs at Ilijas
9 and Sarajevo.
10 Q. Returning from Visoko, back to the Vitez
11 municipality, did you go through Ahmici?
12 A. I passed through Ahmici, and in the village
13 of Ahmici I saw that four or five houses were on fire.
14 Q. Were you stopped or were you able to get back
15 to your destination?
16 A. Yes, I did. I don't know for a reason I
17 arrived, but in a van I arrived at the secondary school
18 centre in Vitez, the school where the TO headquarters
20 Q. When going through Ahmici, did you notice any
21 soldiers or armed soldiers in the area?
22 A. I noticed two groups of soldiers who were
23 armed. They were on the right and left-hand sides, at
24 the place where formerly there was a checkpoint. I did
25 not look at their insignia. I was going in a civilian
1 vehicle and most probably this was why I was not
2 stopped by them, and so I continued on to Vitez,
3 because the vehicle was not marked as a military one.
4 Q. Then you were able or unable to identify them
5 as HVO?
6 A. I don't know if they were HVO, but I know
7 that there were two groups which were running in the
8 direction of those houses. They were wearing
9 camouflage uniforms.
10 Q. When you got back to headquarters, did you
11 hear any radio transmissions that addressed the
12 situation in Ahmici?
13 A. Mustafa Ahmic, also known as Sudzuka, did
14 call from his house, which was on fire. He called our
15 headquarters in Vitez and he said that he was in
16 danger, he and his family, and he asked for help from
17 us and headquarters.
18 Q. What was the situation like when you returned
19 to Vitez?
20 A. In Vitez there were tensions. There were no
21 civilians in the streets for the most part. There was
22 the presence of the HVO, armed. They had erected the
23 roadblocks around the hotels where there were
24 headquarters and the situation was not very good. It
25 was tense.
1 Q. Were you able to leave your headquarter
2 building or did you have to remain?
3 A. I did not manage to leave the command post
4 house. There was a phone call between Commander Cengic
5 and somebody from the HVO, and supposedly we were
6 supposed to leave the headquarters in the school and go
7 to Stari Vitez.
8 As this was arranged, we went into vans, two
9 small private vehicles, and between the hotel and the
10 cinema theatre in Vitez we were encountered by the HVO
11 with the RPGs. They then made us leave the vehicles
12 and we were arrested. Salih Omerdic was among us. He
13 was later killed in Vitez.
14 Q. What was in your van? What cargo?
15 A. In my van I had grenades; that is, shells
16 which I had brought from Visoko. Mostly they were
17 faulty. I think they were manufactured in Visoko. It
18 was produced for the front at Ilijas in Sarajevo, and
19 there were two M-48 rifles and one binoculars.
20 Q. And the front in Sarajevo would have involved
21 the Serbs; is that correct?
22 A. Yes. This was the front between Ilijas and
23 Ravno Rostovo, which we held as the Territorial
24 Defence. So in order to help the besieged Sarajevo so
25 that the JNA would not move in the direction of Zenica
1 and continue its conquests.
2 Q. Were you arrested that day?
3 A. Yes. I was arrested and questioned by Vlado
4 Santic, and then I was transferred to the civilian
5 police station which was across the street from the
6 Hotel Vitez. I was kept all night there, and then in
7 the morning an exchange took place between the HVO and
8 the Territorial Defence. I did not know the details
9 about the exchange; I just know that I was released the
10 next day, because that night we had spent in the Vitez
11 police station.
12 There were three other men with me. I don't
13 know who they were, but they were Muslims. They
14 probably were in transit out of Jablanica, and they
15 were locked up with me, whereas Muhamed Patkovic and
16 Azim Ahmic and the officers from the headquarters were
17 not taken to the police station but were kept in the
18 hotel where they were questioned.
19 Q. Did you come to find out whether or not any
20 harm had befallen Mr. Patkovic?
21 A. Yes. Later Mr. Patkovic was beaten up in the
22 hotel. I think even his ear was torn. I'm not saying
23 it is. They also made him take off his boots.
24 Q. On the 15th of April of 1993, what happened
25 in Vitez?
1 A. Yes. On 15 April 1993, in Vitez there was a
2 moment of instability. The HVO had already started
3 certain preparations for the siege of the town. They
4 erected roadblocks. On the 15th, in the evening, they
5 had blocked all access roads to the town. Civilian
6 traffic was banned, and they, I think, carried out
7 their preparations for an attack.
8 Q. Was the building in which you were living at
9 that time occupied exclusively by Bosniaks or were
10 there also Croats?
11 A. No. The building where I lived was inhabited
12 by people of all ethnic groups, but I was in an area
13 controlled by the HVO.
14 Q. Did any of your Croat friends tell you to
15 leave Vitez?
16 A. Yes. A school friend of mine came to me and
17 told me that if I didn't leave Vitez in five minutes,
18 that I would stay in Vitez and that it would not be
20 However, as I was in a part of town where
21 there was danger -- there were a lot of HVO soldiers
22 there -- and I was one of the only ones who were of the
23 TO staff, I took my wife and went to my
24 father-in-law's, who lived behind the post office.
25 Then he told me that we couldn't go anywhere, that the
1 town has been surrounded. Then the two soldiers came
2 and locked up the entrance of the building, and nobody
3 could leave it.
4 Q. Had your wife also been given some advance
5 warning about danger?
6 A. Yes, she was, because she saw what was going
7 on. As I was passing through town, coming back from
8 work, in the park there were a lot of soldiers amassed
9 there. On my way to the apartment, I saw that the
10 situation was not good. But my wife had taken a stroll
11 beforehand and she couldn't wait for me to come back.
12 She said, the moment I came in, "Let's go over to my
13 parents' because things are not going in the
15 However, at that time there was a celebration
16 going on for the TO, a founding celebration. Even
17 Budimir was present there, Pero Skopljak. They were
18 present at this celebration. I believed that the
19 situation was all right. However, when I came to my
20 in-laws', I realised that the situation was not that
22 Q. Budimir and Skopljak are Croat officials; is
23 that correct?
24 A. Yes. I don't know what -- I think that
25 Skopljak was the chief of the police station in Vitez,
1 and Budimir was commander of the military police, and
2 Skopljak was the head of the police station. So they
3 had significant duties.
4 Q. On the morning of April 16th, the very early
5 morning, what happened in Vitez?
6 A. There was an explosion. The first explosion
7 was about 5.15 in the morning and then the shooting
8 started. I got up with my wife, and I looked through
9 the window and saw three or four groups, each numbering
10 ten soldiers of the -- HVO soldiers, running towards
11 the police station and the old post office. I realised
12 that the situation was very difficult, that as a member
13 of the TO headquarters I had -- I had nothing, that I
14 had to stay in the apartment. I didn't dare go out,
15 because I knew that everybody knew that I was a member
16 of the TO headquarters.
17 Q. Did you end up in detention at some point
18 that day or, excuse me, a bit later?
19 A. Yes. I spent four days in my father-in-law's
20 apartment, where I hid in the toilet, and I had a
21 school friend who was guarding the building, who
22 protected me. His name is Mirko Males, Vlatko Males's
24 Vlatko Males worked with me in the TO
25 headquarters, and we knew each other from the
1 elementary school. At that time he was a protection of
2 some sort. So whenever they came to search the
3 buildings, to search for Muslims between 12 and 60, to
4 take them to the camp, he always, when they came to my
5 in-laws' door, he would say, "This is fine."
6 But on the 18th of April, a larger patrol
7 arrived in a van, and Ivica Markovic, a refugee from
8 Jajce, was among them, who is a friend of my wife.
9 When he saw me, he said to my wife, "This is not good.
10 Why isn't he where he's supposed to be, at work?"
11 Then she explained how we found ourselves there. Then
12 my wife burst into tears and she asked him to help us.
13 He said, "No problem. Whatever I can, I will help.
14 What I can do is I can take you to the SDK offices, to
15 the camp, because that is where it is the safest."
16 Then everybody from that apartment, my
17 father-in-law's -- and there were a couple of children,
18 pre-teens -- and we were all taken to the SDK building
19 and we were detained there.
20 Q. When you got to the SDK building, did you
21 find other Bosniaks in detention; and if so, what were
22 the age ranges and the gender?
23 A. Yes, there were. I arrived on the 18th and
24 some had been brought there on the 16th and 17th, to
25 that SDK building. There were children 12 and up, and
1 there was Nazif Arnaut, who was 64 years of age. They
2 were all Muslims. There were no Serbs or Romanies or
3 anyone else; only Muslims.
4 The premises of SDK was very tight given how
5 many we were. We did not have enough room to lie
6 down. We had to sit during the night.
7 Q. Were they only males?
8 A. Yes, only males.
9 MS. SOMERS: In one moment, Your Honour, I
10 think would be convenient, as soon I finish this next
11 quick line of questioning, for the break.
12 Q. Who is Zabac?
13 A. I know that Zabac is a military policeman. I
14 don't know his first or last names. I know that he
15 arrived when I was supposed to be taken. Zabac said he
16 needed five men to go dig canals at Rijeka.
17 Then again Ivica Markovic came -- the same
18 group that had brought me to the SDK building -- and
19 they took me and another four men from the camp and
20 took us to Rijeka to dig -- actually, to dig trenches
21 for the -- for combat trenches.
22 Q. Did Ivica Markovic tell you that your name
23 was on a list of the HVO's and that they were looking
24 for you?
25 A. Yes. I was on a list of the Territorial
1 Defence staff, as head of the transportation. Ivica
2 Markovic said that it was on Zabac's orders that he was
3 taking me to Rijeka to dig, and that he could not help
4 me, no more than he was able to, because he was only a
5 civilian policeman, who at that time was with the MUP,
6 and he felt sorry that he couldn't help me any longer.
7 He said that after the digging at Rijeka we would be
8 taken to Kratine; that is, to the Bungalow at Kratine.
9 Q. Just to clarify something, you mentioned that
10 Zabac was a military police. Was that HVO?
11 A. Yes, of course, HVO.
12 Q. Who is Zuti?
13 A. Zuti was an HVO soldier who was taking us
14 from the SDK, pulled us by the shoulder and took us to
15 the van. There was another soldier with him called
16 "Madjar," or "Hungarian." I don't know his name. I
17 also know that Zuti -- he was from Cajdras -- that he
19 After I was exchanged, I moved to Zenica. I
20 started living in Zenica. I heard that Zuti was
21 looting houses, robbing houses in Vitez, but I cannot
22 speak to that because I did not witness it.
23 MS. SOMERS: Your Honours, if this is a
24 convenient moment to break.
25 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now, have we heard of the
1 SDK facility before? I don't recollect.
2 MS. SOMERS: I can ask for an explanation of
3 it if you give me a minute. It is listed in the
4 indictment, but I can certainly ask just to have it
5 spelled out.
6 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps we could deal with it
7 after the adjournment.
8 MS. SOMERS: Surely.
9 JUDGE MAY: We are then going to move on, I
10 noticed from the summary, to the Bungalow. Unless
11 there's any dispute about this, perhaps counsel could
12 discuss it over the adjournment, but unless there's any
13 dispute about the conduct of Bralo, which is spoken
14 about here, I would have thought that that could be
15 dealt with fairly shortly. Perhaps you could have a
16 word with Defence counsel and see if it could be dealt
17 with in that way, and then we can move on to
18 cross-examination, but by all means, deal with the
20 MS. SOMERS: Thank you. There would be just
21 one point or two in the last paragraphs that I'd like
22 to deal then and then -- it should be very quick.
23 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
24 MS. SOMERS: There are some exhibits, I just
25 want to let the court know, that go with those
1 paragraphs, but it should not be long.
2 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Mr. Kavazovic, we're
3 going to adjourn until half past 2.00. Don't speak to
4 anybody, please, about your evidence until it's over.
5 Don't let anybody speak to you about it, and that does
6 include members of the Prosecution. Could you be back
7 at half past 2.00? I hope it will be possible to
8 finish your evidence today.
9 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.03 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Somers.
3 MS. SOMERS:
4 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, turning back to the mention of
5 SDK, what was SDK before you were placed there, and
6 what was it during the time of your placement?
7 A. SDK, before I came to the camp, was the
8 social accounting service of Vitez municipality.
9 Q. And from the time that you were placed in it,
10 was it used for any function that had anything to do
11 with social welfare?
12 A. No. It was not the building of the social
13 accounting service, but it became a camp.
14 Q. Were any Croats in the camp?
15 A. No. Only members of the HVO who guarded us
17 Q. You indicated that you were transferred to
18 the Bungalow. Where is the Bungalow?
19 A. The Bungalow is close to Ahmici; that is,
20 next to Nadioci. It was a restaurant close to a
21 swimming area called Rasko Polje.
22 Q. Also in Vitez municipality; yes?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And when you got there, were there members of
25 any special units present?
1 A. In the Bungalow, I found Vlado Santic and the
2 Jokers as a military unit.
3 Q. Do you recall how many, approximately, of the
4 Jokers were there?
5 A. Somewhere between 30 and 40. I don't know
6 the exact number. I couldn't count them.
7 Q. Could you describe their appearance?
8 A. They wore black uniforms. They were painted
9 with black markers on the faces. They had certain
10 ribbons on their shoulders; they were red, blue, and
11 black, I think.
12 Q. Did they have the same patches that you
13 indicated this morning were Joker patches or emblems?
14 A. Yes. Yes, they did.
15 Q. What was the significance of the ribbons you
16 just described, the coloured ribbons?
17 A. You see, I think it was their military
18 deployment of that part of the unit.
19 Q. Meaning a task they had to perform, a type of
21 A. Yes. They probably knew what each coloured
22 ribbon meant. The red meant something, the blue
23 something else, and the black something else.
24 Q. Was this a pattern taken over from the JNA?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you see Anto Furundzija at the Bungalow?
2 A. I did. I saw him for a minute -- half a
4 Q. While you were at the Bungalow, did you
5 overhear any conversations by either the Jokers or HVO,
6 other HVO, about having had sex with women the previous
8 A. No, I just saw a woman -- actually, two
9 women, one of whom I knew in person. And at that
10 moment, from the balcony, a soldier told them to go
11 back behind the building, because they were moving
12 forward, in front of the Bungalow, and the soldier
13 said, "Go back." And so I happened to glance at them,
14 and I saw two women. What happened to them in the end,
15 or afterwards, I don't know, because I was taken to
17 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, I'm going to ask the usher to
18 show you, and only you at this time, and then the
19 Defence and the Court, a name. I ask you not to read
20 it out loud; just to nod yes or no, or say yes or no,
21 if this name represents one of the women whom you saw
22 there. And I would also ask that it not go in the
23 record; thank you.
24 A. Yes, that was the woman I saw there.
25 Q. Did you at any time --
1 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me; I'll wait.
2 Thank you.
3 Q. Did you at any time later come to hear or
4 learn in any fashion that this particular woman had
5 been the victim of sexual assault at Nadioci, at the
7 A. When I left on the 25th, or rather the 5th of
8 May, when I was exchanged, I settled in Zenica because
9 I couldn't stay in Vitez. I signed to go to Zenica
10 because I thought it was safer there than in Vitez. I
11 went to Zenica to stay with relatives. After about
12 nine or ten days of my stay with relatives, while I was
13 recovering, because of the mistreatment by the HVO, by
14 Cicko and the people I have mentioned, mentally I was
15 not in a good condition. I spent some time in a
16 hospital, and that is when I heard from people who had
17 escaped from Vitez that this woman was abused and
18 raped. But I heard this from other people, so I cannot
19 make any allegations, but I had heard that this woman
20 had been raped.
21 Q. When you saw Anto Furundzija at the Bungalow,
22 what was his reaction? What did he do, if anything?
23 A. He spat at my face, and that was the only
24 contact we had.
25 Q. How long did you stay at the Bungalow?
1 A. I was kept in the Bungalow for no longer than
2 an hour when Vlado Santic issued an order to four men
3 -- I think they were Jokers; they were also wearing
4 white belts, like military policemen -- to drive us to
5 Kratine, to Cicko Bralo's -- Mladen, I think his name
7 Q. What is Kratine, and where is it?
8 A. Kratine is above the village of Nadioci. It
9 is an area which was under the responsibility of the
10 HVO, where the HVO held its lines against the BH army.
11 Q. When you arrived at Kratine, whom did you
12 see? Who met you?
13 A. I saw there some other people from Vitez,
14 who, like me, had come from trench-digging at Pirici to
15 Kratine. There was Mirsad Ahmic, Edib Zlotrg. They
16 were already there, digging canals.
17 Q. Did you at any time see the commander of
18 Kratine, Miroslav Bralo, also known as Cicko?
19 A. Yes, I did see him.
20 Q. Describe your encounter.
21 A. My encounter with him was a difficult one.
22 He asked me whether I was head of the traffic
23 department of the balija Territorial Defence. I said I
24 was. Then he lined me up, and the other four who were
25 brought with me, and these others who were already
1 digging there, so that there were ten or eleven of us
2 -- I don't know the exact number -- and he forced us
3 to make the sign of the cross, all of us, ten times,
4 aloud. We had to say "In the name of the Father, the
5 Son, the Holy Ghost, amen." And we did cross
6 ourselves. And then he forced us, with a pickaxe, to
7 try and dig rock, some kind of a fortification for
8 them. And we spent the whole day and night digging
10 Q. Were you able actually to dig into the rock
11 successfully? Was it possible?
12 A. It was not possible. I don't eat meat, and I
13 was given fish in the morning, and a quarter of a loaf
14 of bread, and the same food the next day. I'm a
15 vegetarian; all I ate was bread. And then I fainted,
16 and when I fainted, they allowed me to be taken to
17 Busovaca, to the first-aid station, and I was taken
18 there, in Busovaca, where I was extended first aid.
19 Q. Did you also have to dig in a field which was
20 open and exposed to the BH army while it was shooting?
21 A. Yes. We had to dig in an area -- I don't
22 know what name it had -- for them to be able to pass
23 through. We were digging while the army was shooting
24 at us. However, they were shooting for about ten
25 minutes. Then they probably realised we were
1 civilians, and they stopped shooting and then we could
2 continue digging.
3 Q. Did you see any people you could identify as
4 being from the Croatian army, the HV, at this site?
5 A. I saw a young man. I just saw on his belt
6 the letters "HV." It was a green belt with a clasp,
7 with the letters "HV." I don't know who he was. He
8 wore an olive-grey uniform. I didn't see any insignia
9 on him.
10 Q. Mr. Kavasovic, I will ask you quickly -- if
11 the usher is able to put up two aerials -- just to show
12 relationship of locations of the -- Z1630.1 and
14 If you are able to -- perhaps you might have
15 to get up in order to assist us. If you're able to
16 point out the location of -- it is marked, I believe,
17 in print, but if you could point, for the Court, the
18 location of the Bungalow in Nadioci in relationship to
19 Ahmici and in relationship to where you had been taken
20 from originally in Vitez, if that's visible from here.
21 That would be helpful.
22 A. I can see where I was taken to the Bungalow,
23 which is between Ahmici and Nadioci. It is this area
24 here [indicates]. This is the village of Nadioci, and
25 these are Kratine -- this is Kratine [indicates]. I
1 was taken along this road to Kratine [indicates].
2 Q. Are you able to show any -- I don't know if
3 it's visible from here, but the point from which you
4 were taken originally from the town of Vitez. If it's
5 not on this map, we'll go to another map.
6 A. It's not on this map.
7 Q. I'll put up another map. Is it possible for
8 you to highlight or circle Kratine on that map to show
9 it, please?
10 A. I can. I can see the road and the area where
11 I had to dig [marks]. What I have circled is the area
12 of Kratine where I was taken from the Bungalow.
13 Q. Are you able to show any -- is there a road
14 by which you can show where you went to next from
15 Kratine; Bungalow to Kratine, or how your route was?
16 A. [Marks].
17 Q. How were you transported? How did you get
19 A. In a van, a van which was driven by Madzar, a
20 van of the military police.
21 Q. Were there other persons also in these vans,
22 or were you alone?
23 A. Yes. With me there was Mirsad Ahmic, Jasmin
24 Cengalovic, and another two whose names I don't know.
25 There were five of us. I was the fifth.
1 Q. Were they all Bosniak Muslim males?
2 A. Yes. Yes, they were all Muslims, Bosniaks.
3 Q. Mr. Kavasovic, if this map is a little bit
4 clearer, and if the usher could assist -- sorry,
5 there's a second one. This is Z1644.1.
6 Does this map enable you to show any more of
7 the locations to which you were taken? And also, are
8 you able to show the relationship of these areas to
9 Busovaca and to where Kaonik ultimately is?
10 A. I can see the Bungalow on this map and a part
11 of Kratine, a small part. Anyway, I was taken from
12 Vitez to the Bungalow [marks]. What I have started
13 marking is the road leading to Kratine. Those were the
14 places where I was taken.
15 Q. Thank you very much. You can sit down. The
16 next day after you arrived back at Kratine, were people
17 from Loncari at that location?
18 A. When I was at Kratine -- I think this was the
19 third or fourth day that I was there -- I heard from a
20 school friend -- whose name I'd rather not mention
21 because he is my school friend and he helped me a lot
22 while I was in detention; he even gave me cigarettes to
23 smoke -- he said that fleeing from Loncari, three young
24 men had been caught, and all he knew was that one of
25 them was called Fudo, known as the "footballer," and
1 that is what I heard from this friend of mine and that
2 is all that I know.
3 Q. Did you see Bralo do anything harmful to any
4 of these persons from Loncari?
5 A. Yes. Bralo, Cicko, hit one of these. He had
6 a glove with iron spikes on the knuckles. I don't know
7 how to explain this to you. But in any event, he hit
8 one of these men when he didn't know how to cross
9 himself, and he split open his eyebrow.
10 Q. You were moved on to another location, is
11 that correct, and you were ordered by Furundzija to
12 place mines?
13 A. Yes. I was forced, because they knew I was
14 an officer and that I knew how to lay mines. I don't
15 know whether they had interrogated me or what, but in
16 any event, I was given mines with combat fuses and
17 practice ammunition, and I was taken towards the
19 These were mines which were very dangerous,
20 from the former JNA. They were a special tripwire,
21 mines and others with great destructive power, which it
22 is very difficult to plant and de-mine. I don't know
23 whether they had experts among their ranks, but I gave
24 them back. There were some fuses which were
25 training -- used for training purposes, so I thought
1 they were checking me out.
2 Then I was given combat fuses, and I lay
3 those mines, and after that I was taken back.
4 Q. Were you forced to carry wooden boards in a
5 very dangerous area; and if so, what was dangerous
6 about the area?
7 A. We were making dugouts for HVO soldiers, and
8 this was dangerous because they were in an area covered
9 by sniper fire, and any fire could hit us because it
10 was a clearing. We had to carry these
11 five-centimetre-thick wooden boards. They were heavy.
12 We were using them to cover up these dugouts.
13 Q. Mr. Kavasovic, you indicated you had taken
14 ill; you'd become sick and fainted, and you were taken
15 to Busovaca for medical treatment. You were then taken
16 to another detention facility. What was that one?
17 A. Yes. After all this heavy labour, because I
18 didn't eat any meat, I only ate bread, and I got cramps
19 in my muscles and I fainted, and Bralo Mladen ordered
20 that I be transferred to Busovaca. I was given
21 first-aid medical treatment in the medical station in
22 Busovaca, and I was given an intravenous infusion.
23 When I came to, I saw some soldiers with crew
24 cuts, in HVO uniforms. A nurse asked me how I was. I
25 said I was okay. "Can you stand up?" I got up. I
1 spoke to them briefly. They asked me what was wrong
2 with me, why my hands were bandaged, because my palms
3 were bleeding, and I told them.
4 Then this nurse was ever so kind to me. She
5 even gave me some pills in case I felt nausea again --
6 I think they were multi-vitamins -- for me to recover.
7 Then these two policemen called for a car. Madzar came
8 to pick me up again, and he drove me to the Drago
9 barracks, which used to be a warehouse, an ammunition
10 depot of the Territorial Defence.
11 Q. Is that referred to oftentimes as Kaonik?
12 A. Close to Kaonik, but it's a place near
13 Busovaca; between Busovaca and Kaonik.
14 Q. These barracks are now a -- were a detention
15 centre at the time. How many buildings were there in
16 total, if you can remember?
17 A. As far as I could see, the second day when I
18 went outside to carry some sandbags, I counted five
19 buildings. In the middle one where I was, and two in
20 front of me, these were prisoner-of-war camps; and the
21 two behind, I saw some civilians loading ammunition
22 boxes. Where they went and why they loaded them, I
23 don't know. I just saw this for a second, and I was
24 told to go on carrying the sandbags so as not to watch
25 what was happening there.
1 Q. Then are you able to say whether or not there
2 were munitions depots or warehouses also in the
3 buildings at Kaonik or at this camp?
4 A. Kaonik were warehouses of the Territorial
5 Defence under the former JNA, and most of the munitions
6 that were left there were taken possession of by the
7 HVO, and they controlled it most probably.
8 Q. Were two of the five buildings that you
9 discussed used as warehouses for munitions?
10 A. Yes. These two behind, where the munitions
11 were being loaded.
12 Q. Do you know whether or not the army of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina was aware of the existence of
14 munitions, and how would they have found this out?
15 A. I can only assume now they probably knew
16 about the munitions there, because people who came out
17 of prison, who were released and who were exchanged,
18 immediately reported that there was a large number of
19 civilians there.
20 Q. Are you able to tell the Court whether or not
21 the artillery of the army of BiH was within range to
22 have reached those --
23 JUDGE MAY: I wonder if the witness can
24 really tell us about this. He wasn't an artillery
1 MS. SOMERS: May I show the witness, please,
2 an exhibit, 1880.1, Z1880.1.
3 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, you're able to get up again
4 with the pointer and show the Court the area where the
5 five buildings, in one of which you were detained, is
6 on that map, in the Kaonik area.
7 A. The place where I was held as a prisoner is
8 this one here [indicates].
9 Q. And how many buildings, roughly, do you see
11 A. Five -- seven, I think.
12 Q. Are the five buildings to which you earlier
13 made reference visible from there; and if so, can you
14 show which were the ones where detainees were lodged
15 and which were used for munitions?
16 A. I see the building that I was held in and the
17 two buildings in front of me, which were used as a
18 camp. This is the building where I was [indicates],
19 and these two were for the prisoners [indicates], and
20 these were depots [indicates]. So the buildings I'm
21 going to show now were warehouses of materiel and
22 ammunition [indicates], whereas these two in front
23 [indicates] were used as a camp.
24 Q. Are you able to show, if you know, from where
25 the BiH would have been looking onto Kaonik, from what
2 JUDGE MAY: Well, come on. The witness was a
3 prisoner at the time.
4 MS. SOMERS: Right. I understand.
5 JUDGE MAY: He wasn't part of the attacking
6 army. I just wonder if it's very fair. I don't think
7 we're assisted.
8 MS. SOMERS: All right.
9 Q. While you were in Kaonik, are you aware of
10 any attacks by the BiH on the facility despite the
11 presence of munitions of the HVO?
12 A. I don't know. I wasn't aware of that.
13 Q. Thank you. I'd like to ask you -- you may
14 sit down, please.
15 MS. SOMERS: Two more quick exhibits, and I'd
16 ask the usher to show, please, what is a composite,
17 it's been made a composite, but I'm principally
18 interested in the top page, which is Z1874.
19 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, would you be able to explain
20 to the Court what the darkened lines of this area
21 represent, and in general, what is depicted here that
22 is relative to your life?
23 JUDGE MAY: Is there any objection to this
24 evidence being put in?
25 MR. SAYERS: No, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
2 MS. SOMERS: Okay. It is ...
3 A. What I can say here is that the black lines
4 which are marked is the part of the territory under the
5 control of the Croatian Defence Council while I was
6 imprisoned, and that is where I moved, from Vitez to
7 Kratine to Rijeka.
8 Q. And does it track your movement, then, this
10 A. Yes. The locations marked are the locations
11 where I was digging, where I dug. This is the area at
12 the front lines where I dug under difficult conditions.
13 Q. Skipping the next page that's stapled below
14 it, if you go to the page below that -- which would be
15 the second from the bottom, a diagram drawn by yourself
16 -- and the one below that, could you please explain
17 what these represent?
18 A. This paper details ten rooms that -- there is
19 a room where I was placed. It was number 5. And
20 another man was placed there with me; I think his name
21 was Salih. I only know that he was from Loncari.
22 Q. I wanted to ask you to go to the two exhibits
23 below, the two pages below this one; not this page, but
24 the ones under it.
25 Those two, yes.
1 A. In this map, I drew the official layout of
2 the buildings where I was staying, and among them is
3 the building where I was staying. This is the first
5 Q. Are you able to show which are the munitions
6 buildings from this map, by number?
7 A. The buildings marked 1 and 2 were storage
8 buildings, and 3 and 4 were the camp.
9 Q. And 5 as well?
10 5 as well?
11 A. Yes, 3, 4, and 5.
12 Q. And is there anything different that you need
13 to tell the Court about the next document below it,
14 that was also drawn by you?
15 A. The only difference here is the spatial
16 relations. It's the same structures, but just a
17 different sketch of them.
18 Q. When were you ultimately released from all
19 detention and found your way back to safe territory?
20 A. I was brought back from Busovaca, Kaonik.
21 After two days, then I was brought back to the SDK
22 building, where I was again kept for two days. And
23 then on 5th May 1993, I was released under the auspices
24 of the Red Cross, which was then -- had presence in the
25 Vitez area, and then I went to Zenica.
1 MS. SOMERS: Would the usher please show the
2 witness Exhibit Z1398.
3 Q. Is this indeed the Red Cross certificate that
4 verifies your place of detention and your date of
6 A. Yes, it is. This is a certificate issued by
7 the Red Cross, which at that time was operating, but
8 the date is not correct, on the 26th April. On the
9 26th April, I was at Kratine, but my father-in-law was
10 staying at the SDK, and he reported that I had been
11 taken to dig. Had he not reported me, I never would
12 have been put on this list. So when they came to the
13 SDK, I was on the list, and so on 5 May 1993, I was
15 MS. SOMERS: No further questions.
16 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
17 Who is going to cross-examine?
18 MR. SAYERS: With the Court's permission,
19 I'll take the lead here. The witness was switched on
20 us; we thought there was going to be Major Baggesen.
21 And I am prepared to cross-examine Mr. Kavazovic; I
22 understand that Mr. Kovacic needs a little bit more
23 time. But I'm more than happy to start, Your Honour.
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers:
25 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, good afternoon. My name is
1 Steve Sayers, and I represent Dario Kordic, along with
2 my colleagues to the right here.
3 What is your current rank in the Federation
4 of Bosnia and Herzegovina army, sir?
5 A. My current rank in the Federation of Bosnia
6 and Herzegovina army is lieutenant.
7 Q. All right, Lieutenant. Let me go over the
8 statements and testimonies that you have given to
9 date. As I understand it, you have actually testified
10 in the Blaskic case for two days, on August the 26th
11 and 27th, 1997; correct?
12 A. Most probably that is correct. I cannot
13 recall now when I testified, because I have given
14 several testimonies or statements.
15 Q. You testified in the Aleksovski case on
16 January the 9th, 1998, sir, I believe.
17 A. That is true.
18 Q. And a few months later, on June the 9th of
19 1998, you testified in the Furundzija case; correct?
20 A. Yes, Anto Furundzija.
21 Q. And in October of last year, on October the
22 12th, you testified in the Kupreskic case; correct?
23 A. Yes, the Kupreskic case, but regarding Vlado
25 Q. Now, the first statement that you gave to the
1 authorities of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was
2 two days after your release, on May the 7th, 1993;
4 A. I don't know whether it was on the 7th or
5 8th, but it is correct that I did give a statement.
6 Q. And that statement was given to Ramiz
7 Dugalic, chief of staff of the 3rd Corps in Zenica;
9 A. No, I did not give a statement to him, but we
10 just had a general conversation. I did not give a
11 formal statement. He requested to talk to me, and I
12 talked to Ramiz Dugalic. I don't know what his
13 position was in the corps, but I know that it was a
14 high-ranking one.
15 Q. All right. And correct me if I'm wrong, but
16 I think you've given three separate statements to the
17 Prosecution's investigators: one on September the 2nd,
18 1995; one on January the 26th, 1997; and then, most
19 recently, just a few months ago, on May the 26th, 1999;
20 is that correct?
21 A. Yes, that was correct. In Zenica, I
23 Q. You have given some testimony about a refusal
24 to join the HVO. You were actually given an invitation
25 to do precisely that, were you not, sir, for much more
1 pay than you were making in your position with the
2 Territorial Defence, the TO?
3 A. It was a great difference. We were receiving
4 it in BH dinars, and the HVO in marks.
5 Q. All right. But the point I'm making is that
6 you were offered a position with the HVO at a salary
7 significantly higher than what you were receiving in
8 your position as a soldier with the TO; correct?
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. So we can agree, can we not, that there was
11 no prohibition on Muslims joining the HVO; after all,
12 you had been invited to join?
13 A. Let me tell you, we will not agree on this,
14 because the TO staff consisted of members who were
15 Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs, and Romanis, whereas the HVO
16 consisted only of Croats.
17 I can state one thing here: that as a member
18 who was a Bosniak Muslim, I would not have had any
19 place among my own people had I joined the HVO.
20 Q. And despite being offered the job, you turned
21 it down; correct?
22 A. Yes, I turned it down, because Anto Nuk,
23 Vlatko Males, and Stipo Zigonja were with me at the --
24 with the TO staff, at the TO headquarters at the time.
25 Q. Now, sir, you have previously given some
1 testimony about your duties with the transportation
2 unit of the TO once you had made the decision to join
3 the TO. Actually, you later occupied a position in the
4 military police, didn't you?
5 A. I was first in the military police, and then
6 I got the post with the office for transportation.
7 Q. Well, in May of 1992, you were a member of
8 the military police within the TO; correct?
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. And one of your subordinates was
11 Mr. Furundzija, about whom you have given evidence;
12 isn't that correct?
13 A. Yes. He was a platoon commander of the
14 military police with the municipal TO.
15 Q. Now, you gave evidence that you were arrested
16 by the HVO on three separate occasions, the first being
17 on September the 7th, 1992, or thereabouts; correct?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. You were arrested actually in front of the
20 Hotel Vitez while you were in TO uniform; isn't that
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Didn't you testify in Blaskic and in
24 Aleksovski, though, that you were not wearing a
1 A. I was arrested for the first time on the 7th,
2 as you mentioned. At that time I was not in a
3 uniform. But the second time, when I was captured
4 between the cinema and the hotel on the 21st of
5 October, then I was in the uniform.
6 Q. Well, let me read to you what you said to the
7 Prosecutors in January of 1997. You describe your
8 arrest on September the 7th, 1992, and you said, on
9 page 3:
10 "I was uniformed when I was arrested."
11 Were you or weren't you, sir?
12 A. On the 7th, when there was a conflict, I was
13 arrested in a uniform when I had to leave the TO
14 headquarters. In fact, that was on the 21st of
15 October, 1992.
16 Q. All right. Now, you said that you were
17 questioned by some members of the Ludvig Pavlovic
18 Brigade on that occasion; is that correct?
19 A. Yes. I was questioned along with Vlado
21 Q. Was Mr. Santic a member of the Ludvig
22 Pavlovic Brigade or not, or do you simply not know?
23 A. No, he was not a member of the Ludvig
24 Pavlovic Brigade, because Ludvig Pavlovic unit members
25 were wearing drab green uniforms, whereas he wore a
1 black uniform, and I don't believe that he was a member
2 of this unit.
3 Q. All right. He questioned you for half an
4 hour, and you weren't mistreated in any way, were you,
6 A. No. Just the two of them took my cigarette
7 case. There were two members of the Ludvig Pavlovic
8 Brigade took a cigarette case with some cigarettes, and
9 Vlado Santic questioned me about some military affairs
10 or some things which were in the TO headquarters.
11 Q. All right. And ultimately, your headquarters
12 arranged with the HVO headquarters for you to be
13 exchanged for an HVO prisoner; is that right?
14 A. I don't know what the agreement was. I only
15 know that I was exchanged. At least, I was going to --
16 that is what I was told, but I don't know who I was
17 exchanged for. I was not in a position to know.
18 Q. All right. Let's turn to the incident in
19 October 1992, about which you gave some evidence.
20 As I understand it, sir, you had been to the
21 town of Visoko, leading an ABiH convoy in the early
22 morning hours of October the 20th, 1992. Is that about
24 A. Yes, that is correct.
25 Q. After delivering your shipment, you then
1 headed back to Vitez, to your TO headquarters, along
2 the main road; correct?
3 A. Yes, but this was not a shipment; this was --
4 these were members of the TO which were going to
5 provide some assistance there and go to the front lines
6 against the JNA troops.
7 Q. All right. You did -- as you've previously
8 testified, you arrived back at your headquarters at the
9 TO in the high school, the Boris Kidric high school, in
10 Dubravica; is that correct?
11 A. Not in Dubravica; rather, in Vitez, in the
12 secondary school centre. I don't know what was the
13 school in Dubravica called. This was how I went back
14 to Vitez, to the Boris Kidric centre, that secondary
15 school centre where the command post was, where the
16 headquarters were.
17 Q. All right. Now, it's true, isn't it, that
18 when you arrived back in your headquarters, it was
19 surrounded by HVO troops, approximately 70 of them?
20 A. Yes. But I don't know about the exact
21 number, whether there was exactly 70, but around that
23 Q. In your headquarters, I believe, there were
24 about 37 TO staff at that location; correct?
25 A. Thirty-six or thirty-seven, as far as I
2 Q. Basically, what happened was there was a
3 stand-off for about four days and no exchange of fire
4 between the TO and the HVO forces while negotiations
5 occurred, that resulted in relocation of the TO
6 headquarters from where you were to Stari Vitez;
8 A. That is correct, but you said that there was
9 no shooting on the part of the HVO, but several
10 grenades called Zolja were lobbed into the secondary
11 school centre and then an ultimatum followed for us to
12 leave the centre.
13 Q. All right, sir. Let me just read from your
14 statement four years ago, given to the Prosecution:
15 "We stayed in our HQ for three days, during
16 which time there was no exchange of shooting."
17 That's true, isn't it?
18 A. Yes, that is true. I said that there was no
19 exchange of fire. We didn't shoot, we could not, but
20 two Zolja grenades were shot at the centre. We were
21 very few. We did not shoot, and our Major, Hakija
22 Cengic, forbid any kind of resistance before the talks
23 with somebody from the HVO had taken place.
24 Q. All right. Now, the HVO permitted the TO
25 commander, Sefkija Dzidic, and his deputy, Ramiz
1 Dugalic, to relocate their headquarters to Stari Vitez;
2 isn't that correct?
3 A. He most probably did. They transferred to
4 Stari Vitez and we -- that is, I stayed in the
5 secondary school centre with the rest of them.
6 Q. You were subsequently permitted, though, to
7 load up trucks and drive them back and forth between
8 the old headquarters location and the new headquarters
9 in Stari Vitez; correct?
10 A. Yes. They gave us a period of time within
11 which we had to vacate the centre and pick up all the
12 things that we needed and move to the old part of
14 Q. They also indicated, Lieutenant, did they
15 not, the route that you should take to ensure safe
17 A. I wasn't told anything by anyone, by the
18 HVO. I was ordered by Sefkija Dzidic to go from the
19 secondary school centre to the hotel, from the hotel to
20 the marketplace, then from the market to Old Vitez.
21 Q. Let me just read you from the statement that
22 you gave four years ago, sir:
23 "On the fourth day, the HVO allowed us to
24 load some trucks with materials from our HQ and take
25 them to Stari Vitez. I drove the van filled with
1 grenades through the town, instead of the road which
2 the HVO told me to take, because I was afraid the HVO
3 would shoot at the van."
4 That's true as well, is it not?
5 A. Yes, that is correct, but I got the route
6 through the -- past the stadium into Old Vitez, and it
7 was impossible to pass there. So I received an order
8 from my superior to go through the downtown area,
9 because the agreement was to go -- the agreement had
10 been for us to go through the town rather than around
11 via the stadium.
12 Q. Let me see if I understand the situation.
13 You were driving a civilian truck that was unknown to
14 the HVO, filled with grenades; is that correct?
15 A. Not a truck; a van, because -- I mean, I did
16 not know what vehicles we had, and I did not know what
17 vehicles the HVO had.
18 Q. All right, sir. It was a civilian van, but
19 it was filled with grenades, and you hadn't told the
20 HVO about that, had you?
21 A. I was not in a position to say anything,
22 because I did not take part in negotiations. I was
23 just carrying out my commander's orders, if you
24 understand me. I was not involved in negotiations or
1 Q. All right. There were also two sniper's
2 rifles in that truck along with all of the grenades;
3 isn't that right?
4 A. Yes, and a pair of military binoculars, from
5 what I remember.
6 Q. And also two other items, sir. There was
7 your personal machine gun; correct?
8 A. Yes, that is correct.
9 Q. As well as the automatic pistol that you were
10 wearing as a sidearm; is that correct?
11 A. Yes. I was -- I carried my personal pistol
12 which was officially issued to me from JNA.
13 Q. And as I understand it, you were apprehended
14 and questioned again by the HVO, and on this second
15 occasion it is also true that you were not mistreated;
16 isn't that correct?
17 A. I was not mistreated; I was just arrested and
18 interrogated, but I was arrested by the HVO with ten
19 RPG grenades and Zoljas, and about 15 soldiers were
21 Q. All right. The gentleman that you gave
22 testimony about, Mr. Muhamed Patkovic, he became a
23 Mujahedin fighter, did he not?
24 A. I don't know whether he became later a
25 Mujahedin fighter, but I know that that man was beaten
1 up in the Vitez Hotel and that they even took his boots
2 off, and that they split his ear, they beat him so
3 badly that day when they captured him.
4 Q. You did tell the Prosecutors four years ago
5 that Mr. Patkovic was, in fact, with the Mujahedin, did
6 you not?
7 A. I said that? I don't remember saying that.
8 I really do not remember saying that. It may be an
9 error in the translation, but I know that while he was
10 in the TO he was not a Mujahedin, because he couldn't
11 have been. He may have later on.
12 Q. I don't think we need to belabour that point,
13 so I'll move on. The soldiers who questioned you, sir,
14 had told you that the HVO had actually been attacked by
15 the TO at Ahmici, did they not?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, just before April the 15th, were you
18 aware that four HVO soldiers had been kidnapped by
19 Mujahedin just outside of Novi Travnik?
20 A. No, I didn't know about that.
21 Q. Were you aware that an assassination attempt
22 had been made upon Darko Kraljevic on April the 12th,
23 1993, in the woods outside Rijeka?
24 A. No, I don't know that.
25 Q. Now, Mr. Kraljevic, to your knowledge,
1 commanded a detachment known as the Vitezovi; is that
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And those troops only took orders from him,
5 their commander, and nobody else; isn't that true?
6 A. I don't know that.
7 Q. Well, you were asked that question, sir, in
8 the Blaskic case, by one of the Judges, and I believe
9 that you said, on page 2446, that Darko Kraljevic could
10 do what he liked. On page 2425, you said these
11 Vitezovi "only took orders from their commander and
12 nobody else." And then one page later you said
13 that "it was an exclusive unit, a private army. They
14 took their orders only from their commander and nobody
15 else," and the reference to "commander" was a reference
16 to Darko Kraljevic. Do you remember that?
17 A. I remember all of that. However, as regards
18 those orders, I think that every commander issues
19 strict orders to his soldiers, and whether he
20 personally gave such orders, I don't know; I was not in
21 his presence. I was a member of the Territorial
22 Defence. I was not a member of the HVO, the Vitezovi,
23 or the Jokers, or any such thing.
24 Q. Very well. Did you know that the TO had a
25 battalion headquarters at the villages of Poculica and
1 Preocica, to the north-east of Vitez? Did you know
3 A. I apologise; could you repeat the question,
4 please? I didn't quite hear it.
5 Q. Certainly. It's true, is it not, that the TO
6 had battalion headquarters at the villages of Poculica
7 and Preocica, to the north-east of Vitez, immediately
8 before the fighting on April the 16th?
9 A. Let me tell you, I don't know whether the
10 command was there. I was in the TO headquarters. I
11 was not in the battalions. There's a difference
12 between the staff of the Territorial Defence. I
13 couldn't have that information.
14 Q. All right. Did you know that the battalion
15 headquarters of the 325th Mountain Brigade was located
16 in Kruscica?
17 A. I knew that when the restructuring of the TO
18 was carried out, when it was transformed into a
20 Q. And when was that? That was before April the
21 15th, 1993, was it not?
22 A. No. It was after that.
23 Q. All right. You gave some testimony in
24 connection with a building known as the Bungalow, and
25 you stated that you had seen a lady that you recognised
1 at that location. Let me just read you a statement
2 that you gave to the Prosecution's investigators four
3 years ago. This is on page 6:
4 "While I was there, I did not hear or see
5 any women at the Bungalow."
6 A. I don't know. There seems to be quite a bit
7 of misunderstanding. I have already testified. I made
8 those statements in order, but I said in my first
9 statement that I saw two women, one of whom I
10 recognised, the other one I did not. The soldier on
11 the balcony ordered those women to go back behind the
12 balcony. I saw that and I still stick to that
14 MR. SAYERS: With the Court's permission --
15 I'm actually relatively close to being finished -- I'd
16 just like to show the witness the statement he gave to
17 the Prosecutors four years ago, with the usher's
18 assistance. Thank you.
19 Q. For your easy reference, sir, I've
20 highlighted it on page 5 of the Croatian version.
21 Thank you.
22 Could you just read into the record, sir, the
23 passage that I have highlighted?
24 A. "I didn't hear or see any women in the
1 That is what it says here, explicitly.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, the people that you saw
3 wearing black uniforms at the Bungalow did not have any
4 insignia on their uniforms, did they, sir?
5 A. Some did, some did not. I couldn't notice
6 everything, but I know that I saw Jokers, then I saw
7 some police members. There were three different
8 military units at the Bungalow.
9 Q. Well, you saw Mr. Vlado Santic at the
10 Bungalow; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And he was wearing a black uniform, was he
14 A. He was wearing a black uniform, yes, with a
15 white belt.
16 Q. But he was not wearing any insignia, just
17 like the rest of the people you've identified as
18 Jokers; isn't that correct?
19 A. He did not wear any insignia on him.
20 Q. And the Jokers did not wear insignia either,
21 did they, sir?
22 A. The Jokers did wear the insignia of the
23 Jokers. Anto Furundzija wore the Jokers patch.
24 Q. Let me just read you some testimony that you
25 gave on August the 26th, 1997, sir, under oath in the
1 Blaskic case, page 2326.
2 " Q: How was Mr. Vlado Santic dressed when
3 you saw him?
4 A: He was wearing a black uniform without
5 any insignia, like the rest of the
7 That's true, isn't it?
8 A. The question for Vlado was correct, because I
9 didn't see an insignia on him. But when it says "like
10 the other Jokers," that, I'm not sure of. But I know
11 that Vlado did not wear an insignia, because he spoke
12 to me for a minute or half a minute.
13 Q. All right. Now, you've identified quite a
14 few commanders of this unit, the first one being
15 Mr. Vlado Santic; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You've identified several others, but another
18 individual who you've previously identified as a
19 commander was named Ivica Vujica; isn't that correct?
20 A. Ivica Vujica was a commander of the Jokers
21 who took me to dig trenches at Kratine.
22 Q. But you have previously testified that this
23 man always treated you very correctly; isn't that
25 A. Not Ivica Vujica, but Ivica Markovic, a
1 civilian policeman, a refugee from Jajce. As for Ivica
2 Vujica, he was a leader of a Jokers platoon. There is
3 a difference between a civilian policeman and a
4 military policeman.
5 Q. All right. You really have no detailed
6 personal knowledge of the function or purpose or
7 complement of the Jokers unit, do you, sir?
8 A. I do not have any detailed information about
9 their purpose, but I know they were promoted in Vitez
10 as a unit for special purposes.
11 Q. But the point I'm making to you, sir, is that
12 you really just don't know very much about the unit at
13 all, do you, personally, from your own personal
15 A. It can't be said that I don't know much. I
16 know from the moment they were founded until I met them
17 at Kratine and in the Bungalow.
18 Q. Well, you were asked, "Could you please be
19 more detailed about the Joker unit," in the Aleksovski
20 case a few years ago, page 398, and you said, quote:
21 "I personally don't know much about it." Isn't that
23 A. I'm saying again that I personally don't know
24 much about them, but I know how they asserted
25 themselves in Vitez and how they introduced themselves
1 in Vitez.
2 Q. All right. Two final topics, if I may. The
3 ribbons that you previously described, the ribbons
4 bearing different colours: Did I understand you to say
5 that those ribbons identified the particular task that
6 the military unit was carrying out, and that that was
7 actually a tradition established in the JNA, standard
8 practice in the former JNA?
9 A. Let me tell you, that was my assumption. I
10 didn't say that the red ribbon meant the first front
11 line; the second, the second front line; and so on. As
12 far as I know from the former JNA, the blue ribbon was
13 always the defence and the red the aggressor. So the
14 first position was marked with a red ribbon, the
15 reserve position with a blue ribbon. I know the system
16 from the former JNA. I didn't say now that the same
17 applied to the HVO. These are just my assumptions. I
18 said that this shouldn't go down in the record. Why it
19 did, I don't know.
20 Q. You said that when you were present at the
21 Bungalow, you saw people wearing white, orange, or blue
22 ribbons tied around their arms; correct?
23 A. Yes, across their shoulders, on the
24 epaulettes. And some wore them also on their muscles,
25 up here.
1 Q. And you also said -- and I don't think there
2 is any dispute about this, so let's try to agree upon
3 it -- that the use of ribbons was copied by the HVO
4 from the JNA; isn't that correct?
5 A. Probably, yes. I cannot claim that, but I
6 know that from my military training in the JNA.
7 Q. All right. And after you were released on
8 May the 5th, I understand that you rejoined the army
9 about two weeks later, on May the 22nd, 1993; is that
11 A. Yes, I underwent psychiatric examination in
12 hospital, because I had these cramps, for ten or
13 fifteen days. And after that I was mobilised again.
14 Q. All right. Just a couple of final
15 questions. You have never met or spoken to Colonel
16 Blaskic in your life, have you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. And I take it the same goes for the accused
19 in this case, Mr. Kordic?
20 A. I don't even know Kordic in person. I never
21 even saw him.
22 MR. SAYERS: Thank you very much indeed, Your
23 Honour. No further questions.
24 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
25 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, as my
1 colleague, Mr. Sayers, has already said, we had
2 prepared for Witness Baggesen, as we were told
3 yesterday. But a change occurred today, but we have
4 somehow managed to prepare for the cross-examination,
5 in order not to waste Your Honours' time, so with your
6 permission, I would like to begin.
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Mikulicic:
8 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kavazovic. My name is
9 Mikulicic, and together with my colleague, Kovacic, I
10 represent the Defence of Mario Cerkez.
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. Would you be kind enough to answer my
13 questions to the best of your recollection, and if any
14 of my questions is not clear, please tell me.
15 Mr. Kavazovic, you said that you were born in
16 the village of Vrhovine, Vitez municipality?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Were you the only child?
19 A. No, I have five brothers and a sister.
20 Q. So there were six children in all?
21 A. Yes, but one died.
22 Q. Was your family well off?
23 A. We were a working-class family.
24 Q. And you completed your elementary school
1 A. In Vitez, in Dubravica.
2 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, this must be tiring for you.
3 Please let me know if you don't feel well, and then we
4 can do something about it. Can you continue with this
6 A. No, no, I'm okay, though I have a big ulcer,
7 so it's causing me some discomfort.
8 Q. After an eight-year elementary school, you
9 went to Belgrade to attend secondary military school?
10 A. Yes, I had an uncle there, working in the
11 Public Security Station, at the Danube station,
12 district 29, married to a Serb.
13 Q. I see. So you left home, so you must have
14 been quite a financial burden for your parents as you
15 went away?
16 A. I wasn't for my parents, but I was for my
17 uncle. My uncle financed me and covered the costs of
18 education. He didn't have any children, and he was an
19 inspector in the police.
20 Q. Let us not waste time. Did you receive any
21 kind of scholarship from the JNA?
22 A. Yes, we received regular support to cover
23 essential needs.
24 Q. And after completing schooling, you became a
25 professional officer in the JNA, and you received a
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You also had some other privileges given to
4 JNA officers, such as free transportation?
5 A. Yes, in some areas, some allowances. When we
6 went on mission, you could spend your holidays in
7 military holiday homes. But that was for higher-level
9 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, while you were in the JNA
10 in '91 and the beginning of '92, what was your exact
12 A. I was a traffic dispatcher.
13 Q. And where were you located?
14 A. At Vozdovac.
15 Q. In Belgrade?
16 A. Yes, in Belgrade, district of Belgrade.
17 Q. You told us that on the 18th of February,
18 1992, you left the JNA?
19 A. Yes, with the help -- with a colleague of
20 mine, a Serb, Branislav Jeknic, who was working with me
21 and who transferred me to Kuzmin and Bijeljina.
22 Q. Very well. It was only the date that was
23 interesting for me, the 18th of February. Why did you
24 leave the JNA? I'm asking you this because the JNA
25 gave you a job, certain privileges, and so on. Why did
1 you abandon it?
2 A. Because I was schooled for the five-cornered
3 star, and not for different emblems, the tricolour and
4 a beret. Because another of my friends, a Croat, also
5 abandoned the JNA, because the war started in Croatia,
6 and seeing that we would be deployed as officers, we
7 had to desert the JNA, not to be used in the war. We
8 didn't want the war.
9 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, is it true that already
10 in '91, the JNA attacked Slovenia with tanks and
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is it true that already in '91, Vukovar in
14 Croatia was attacked, as well as Dubrovnik?
15 A. Yes. All this was in full swing.
16 Q. Is it also true that in the Republic of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the JNA razed to the ground the
18 village of Ravno at the end of '91?
19 A. I don't recall that with precision, but I had
20 the good fortune for my uncle to fix it for me not to
21 be deployed anywhere else until I managed to go back to
23 Q. So on the 18th of February, you managed to
25 A. Yes, with the help of this colleague of mine
1 who helped me get back to Bosnia.
2 Q. Let us go to the next set of questions. In
3 your testimony today, and this is something you
4 referred to in your earlier statements as well, you
5 said that in the Vitez Hotel, on the 20th of May, 1992,
6 Samir Trako had been killed, and that your commander,
7 Mr. Hakija Cengic, went to the Hotel Vitez for a
8 meeting with Mr. Cerkez, and you escorted him there?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You told us, Mr. Kavazovic, that you noticed
11 that Mr. Cerkez was wearing a black uniform with HOS
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. At the time, or now, did you know what his
15 role was, what his position was in the organisation of
17 A. I don't know. I think that he was a
18 commander of HOS, or a section of HOS. I can't be more
19 precise. But I do know that he held a position there,
20 because he was able to talk with my commander. So that
21 was a command level, so they must have been on a par.
22 Q. In addition to Mr. Cengic and Mr. Cerkez, was
23 anyone else present?
24 A. Yes, Anto Furundzija. Who else was inside, I
25 don't know. I came with Cengic; I don't know who was
1 inside. They mentioned Valenta, and I don't know
3 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, a moment ago in your testimony
4 you mentioned the name of Mr. Edib Zlotrg. Did you
5 know him?
6 A. We were together in the camp.
7 Q. Very well. But did you know him from before?
8 A. No, I did not.
9 Q. Had you heard that he was a forensic
10 technician in the Vitez police station?
11 A. I know he worked in the administration, but I
12 had no contact with the civilian police. I know he was
13 in the police, a civilian policeman, and for a while I
14 think he worked with Santic, if that is correct, but
15 I'm not sure.
16 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, did you know somebody called
17 Mr. Muhamed Mujezinovic?
18 A. Yes, I did, because he came from my village.
19 He was born in Vrhovine.
20 Q. Did you know that in those days, that
21 evening, on the 20th of May, he attended a meeting in
22 the hotel, a meeting of the crisis staff in connection
23 with this murder? Did you know that?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you know that Mr. Edib Zlotrg, as a crime
1 technician of the Vitez police, participated in the
2 inquest in connection with this killing?
3 A. I heard that later, but I didn't see him that
4 evening. I just came with Cengic and Furundzija.
5 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, if I were to tell you that
6 both these gentlemen, Mr. Zlotrg and Mujezinovic,
7 testified in court in this Tribunal about that event,
8 and their contact with Mr. Cerkez that evening, that
9 both of them said that Mr. Cerkez was wearing a
10 camouflage uniform and not a black uniform, what would
11 be your comment? Would you still insist that he was in
12 a black uniform?
13 A. I still insist that he was in a black
15 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, you made several prior
16 statements through the court's investigators, among
17 them one on the 7th of May, 1993, also to the 3rd Corps
18 of the BH army; then a statement on the 2nd of
19 September, '95, to the investigators of the
20 Prosecution; then a statement on the 26th of January,
21 1997; and then on the 26th of May this year, after the
22 hearing of this case had already started. Only then,
23 in this last statement, which you made seven years and
24 six days after the killing of Samir Trako, you
25 mentioned for the first time that Mario Cerkez was
1 wearing a black uniform. How come you never said that
3 A. Let me tell you, maybe I wasn't asked that
4 question before during the examination here, but I do
5 know that evening there were three meetings, not just
7 Q. I see. Nobody asked you that.
8 Mr. Kavazovic, let us go on to another topic now. You
9 told us that by order of Miroslav Bralo, known as
10 Cicko, you were taken to the health centre in Busovaca
11 and then from there to the Draga barracks?
12 A. From the first-aid or Emergency department in
13 Busovaca, when they gave me medical treatment, infusion
14 and some other shots, and then a nurse, I think she was
15 called Marija --
16 Q. Never mind. So from the first-aid station in
17 Busovaca, you were taken to the former barracks called
19 A. No, not Draga. No, the camp. Draga is
20 behind Busovaca.
21 Q. The camp Seliste?
22 A. I mean the warehouses of the Territorial
23 Defence at Kaonik. I'm afraid I don't understand
24 anything anymore.
25 Q. Allow me to ask you. Do you think that these
1 localities that you have mentioned -- Draga, Seliste,
2 and the Kaonik camp -- are one and the same place?
3 A. No, it's not one and the same place. Kaonik
4 is where I was held in the camp; Seliste is where I was
5 in the Bungalow; and Draga is quite a different
6 barracks, behind Busovaca. I was never there. Now it
7 is a barracks of the Federation army, or rather it was
8 the HVO, now the Federation army.
9 Q. Yes, I understand what you are telling me,
10 but 20 minutes ago, you said that from the Busovaca
11 medical centre you were taken to the Draga barracks?
12 A. No, Kaonik. Kaonik. I couldn't have been
13 taken to the Draga barracks.
14 Q. Very well. Be that as it may, tell us,
15 Mr. Kavazovic, the building that you were detained in
16 in Kaonik, was it divided up into cells inside?
17 A. Yes, it was. There were rooms with two
18 walls; there were nine or ten rooms.
19 MR. MIKULICIC: I would ask the usher to show
20 the witness Prosecution Exhibit Z1874.
21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mikulicic, how long do you
22 think you might be in cross-examination?
23 MR. MIKULICIC: Another five minutes, on the
25 Q. This was an exhibit tendered today, if that
1 can be of any assistance. Mr. Kavazovic, will you look
2 at the second page of this exhibit.
3 Tell us what it represents, this drawing of
5 A. This drawing represents the building in which
6 I was detained at Kaonik.
7 Q. Very well. The numbers indicate the numbers
8 of the cells, don't they?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you say, Mr. Kavasovic, that that
11 building was in the middle of the circle that you drew
12 on page 4 of this exhibit?
13 A. Yes, it is in the middle, but I was in room
14 number 5.
15 Q. Mr. Kavasovic, were you personally able to
16 see the interior of the other buildings within the
18 A. No. Except for this one.
19 Q. So you didn't see any other building from the
21 A. From the inside, no, but I went out once to
22 help to load sand.
23 Q. Yes, you told us about that. Mr. Kavasovic,
24 please don't misunderstand me, but I'm asking you this
25 for procedural reasons. A moment ago you told us that
1 after these events that you've testified to, that you
2 were in hospital, that you had some psychiatric
3 problems, and that you were there under examination.
4 Will you tell us how you feel in that respect today?
5 What is your condition today?
6 A. My condition, ever since I left the camp in
7 1993, I went for consultations with a
8 neuropsychiatrist, but otherwise I'm fine.
9 Q. I'm glad to hear that. My last question,
10 Mr. Kavasovic: In the summer of 1992, who was the
11 commander of the municipal HVO staff? Was that Marijan
13 A. In the summer? Could you be more specific
14 regarding the date?
15 Q. June or July 1992.
16 A. I don't know exactly. Marijan Skopljak was
17 linked to the police administration, I think.
18 Q. Mr. Kavasovic, may I just remind you, maybe
19 you're confusing Pero and Marijan Skopljak. I'm asking
20 you about Marijan Skopljak.
21 A. I don't know. I cannot give you an answer.
22 Q. Thank you for your answers.
23 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, I have no
24 further questions.
25 MS. SOMERS: No re-examination.
1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kavasovic, that concludes
2 your evidence. Thank you for coming again to the
3 International Tribunal to give evidence. You are now
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE MAY: We will sit tomorrow at 10.15 and
8 go on until 4.45.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
10 4.08 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
11 the 23rd day of September, 1999
12 at 10.15 a.m.