Page 7563
1 Friday, 24th September, 1999
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor
7 versus Dario Kordic and Mario Cerkez.
8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Sayers -- I'm sorry.
9 I've got ahead.
10 Yes, Mr. Scott.
11 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MAY: Paragraph, please.
13 MR. SCOTT: 219, Your Honour.
14 WITNESS: LARS BAGGESEN (Resumed)
15 Examined by Mr. Scott:
16 Q. Again, Major, after discussions with counsel,
17 at the Court's direction, we're going to move through
18 much of this material quite quickly, just so you know
19 how we're proceeding.
20 Is it correct sir, that on the 30th of April,
21 1993, you and an ECMM team also inspected an HVO prison
22 at Kiseljak, at the Kiseljak barracks, and at that
23 location you found that there were 48 Muslim civilian
24 men detained in an approximately 93-cubic-metre room?
25 A. Yes.
Page 7564
1 Q. Did you have any understanding, talking to
2 the HVO commander or based on your observations at the
3 location, why these particular civilian men were
4 detained?
5 A. They were detained because they were
6 Muslims.
7 Q. Were you able to determine any other reason
8 why they were being kept there at that time?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Is it correct, sir, that on the 8th of May,
11 1993, you visited Fojnica, which is southwest of
12 Kiseljak; it was peaceful there, and the Muslims and
13 Croats there were still living together without any
14 problems?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. On the 11th of May of 1993, did an RC Zenica
17 team, including yourself, report the matter of two
18 Muslim families in Nova Bila who were forced out of
19 their houses by a special HVO unit, and then two Croat
20 families were moved into the Muslim houses in their
21 place?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You were actually observing as the HVO was
24 moving the Muslim families out and moving the Croat
25 families in?
Page 7565
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was the commander -- did you understand the
3 commander of this HVO unit was someone nicknamed
4 "Zuti"?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And "Zuti," to your knowledge, in
7 Serbo-Croatian means "yellow"?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And this Zuti was there supervising the
10 operation?
11 A. Yes, he was.
12 Q. Is it correct, sir, that on the 10th of June,
13 1993, you were appointed chairman of a commission
14 called the Joint Humanitarian Commission to oversee the
15 release of prisoners pursuant to a recent ceasefire
16 agreement which was signed by General Petkovic for the
17 HVO and by the senior commander of the ABiH? Is that
18 correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I take it, sir, that one of the important
21 features of this agreement was an agreement by both
22 sides to release prisoners?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. In the course of then carrying out your new
25 duties as chairman of this commission, around the 15th
Page 7566
1 of June, 1993, did you hear that -- or obtain some
2 information that Muslim prisoners were being kept at
3 the HVO police station at the Vitez cinema?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. This was the Vitez cinema which, first of
6 all, was only a few hundred metres away from Colonel
7 Blaskic's headquarters; is that correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. It was also in the very same building that
10 Mario Cerkez's headquarters was; is that correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. On the 15th of June, sir, based on that
13 information, did you proceed to the HVO police station
14 at the cinema?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you talked to the police chief?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is it correct that the police chief first
19 told you that there were no prisoners in the police
20 station, and you responded to that by showing him a
21 document which authorised you to search the building;
22 and on being confronted with this authorisation, the
23 police chief then admitted to you that there were five
24 Muslim civilians in a small room in the basement?
25 A. That's correct.
Page 7567
1 Q. They were in poor condition?
2 A. They were.
3 Q. Were these soldiers, sir, to the best of your
4 -- based on your observations at the time?
5 A. No, they were civilian. One of them was too
6 young to be a soldier and four of them were too old.
7 Q. Now --
8 JUDGE MAY: Sorry to interrupt. You saw
9 these civilians, did you, in the basement?
10 A. Yes, I did, Your Honour.
11 MR. SCOTT:
12 Q. Moving on, on the 21st of June, 1993, did you
13 and members of the prisoner commission go to the HVO
14 prison at Kiseljak barracks?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When you arrived there, the HVO commander at
17 the Kiseljak barracks told you that all of the
18 prisoners there had already been released; is that
19 correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You asked him for some written certification
22 or confirmation that that was in fact the case, and
23 upon being confronted on that, the commander changed
24 his position and basically said, "Well, they are not
25 released. They are working in the field"?
Page 7568
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Could you, sir, from where you stood in
3 having this meeting and around the Kiseljak barracks,
4 see any fields or farms in that immediate area?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you push -- did you question the HVO
7 commander further about his explanation that the
8 prisoners were in the field?
9 A. Actually he told me that it was his way to
10 say that they were on the battlefield, digging trenches
11 and clearing mine fires -- minefields.
12 Q. What happened after he told you that? What
13 did you do next?
14 A. Of course we made a protest at the spot and
15 asked him to bring them back. I told him a little
16 about the Geneva Convention, and he told me that they
17 didn't count the Geneva Convention for anything down
18 there.
19 Q. Well, first of all -- let's take that in a
20 little smaller pieces. First of all, on being pushed,
21 he admitted to you himself that these prisoners, these
22 Muslim prisoners, were out digging trenches and
23 clearing minefields?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When you protested and mentioned to him the
Page 7569
1 compliance with the Geneva Conventions, his response to
2 you was what?
3 A. That it wasn't used in this conflict.
4 Q. And you waited there, and is it correct, sir,
5 that about ten hours later the prisoners returned to
6 camp and you saw that they were Muslim civilians?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, one minor point
9 of clarification. Could we know the name and rank of
10 the individual who made these statements? I don't know
11 that counsel has established that.
12 MR. SCOTT:
13 Q. Major, if you know that information could you
14 give it to us?
15 A. I do not know the name of the commander, but
16 he was the commander of Kiseljak barracks and the
17 person who was responsible for the prison.
18 Q. When you went to Kiseljak for the purposes of
19 carrying out your mission as the chairman of this
20 commission, how did you come about identifying this
21 person or come into contact with this person as the
22 responsible person there?
23 A. One of the members of this Joint Humanitarian
24 Commission was Mr. Skopljak from the HVO.
25 Q. This is Pero Skopljak?
Page 7570
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And Mr. Skopljak pointed or directed you to
3 this HVO officer as the person in charge?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. Is it correct, sir, that the
6 prisoners then, once they'd returned to camp under your
7 supervision, were released and transported to Zenica?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. If I can direct your attention one last time
10 to the photographs. It should be the last item in the
11 bundle of photographic or map material; it is 1894.1,
12 1894.1. This is an aerial photograph of Kiseljak or
13 part of Kiseljak; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Have you previously circled on this aerial
16 photograph the Kiseljak -- a portion of the Kiseljak
17 barracks which were being used by the HVO as a prison?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That's marked there approximately to the left
20 of the middle of the page?
21 A. [Indicates]
22 Q. All right. Let the record show the witness
23 is pointing to the circled area in blue.
24 All right. Now, these prisoners that were
25 released, again, you were able to confirm that when
Page 7571
1 they came back to the camp they were in civilian
2 clothes, and when they were questioned through
3 interpreters they identify themselves, in fact, as
4 civilians?
5 A. Yes. Yes. And ICRC had interviewed them as
6 well.
7 Q. International Committee of the Red Cross?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. On the 23rd of June, 1993, sir, did you go to
10 Skradno, which is east of Vitez, where you learned that
11 the HVO was holding 88 Muslim prisoners there?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And were you able to determine whether these
14 Muslims were people who were from Skradno or is it
15 correct, sir, that they had been brought or taken there
16 by the Bosnian Croats from another village called
17 Bukovci?
18 A. That's correct. They were not from Skradno.
19 The HVO had transported them from Bukovici to Skradno.
20 Q. Did you have occasion to talk to these
21 prisoners or some of them?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did they express any particular concern to
24 you at that time about being held in Skradno?
25 A. Yes. They were very afraid that Skradno
Page 7572
1 should be a new Ahmici.
2 Q. What did you understand they -- did they say
3 anything to you to explain what they meant by that
4 statement?
5 A. They were afraid that the HVO will make
6 another massacre against them.
7 Q. Sir, is it correct -- turning to a different
8 -- moving on to a different subject or topic -- that a
9 commander in military forces is not only expected to
10 issue orders or make his orders or wishes known to his
11 subordinate officers, but that there's also -- he has
12 also the responsibility to see that those orders are
13 carried out?
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 Q. In the course of your 20-plus years in the
16 Danish army, is it correct, sir, that one of the
17 commander's responsibilities is to make sure his
18 subordinates know that they are to comply with the Laws
19 and Customs of War, including the Geneva Conventions?
20 And in the Danish army, in fact, is that part of the
21 training that all officers receive?
22 A. All officers and all men, actually.
23 Q. And it falls to the commander to make sure
24 that those laws and responsibilities are complied with?
25 A. Yes.
Page 7573
1 Q. If I could ask you to look at and direct the
2 Court's attention to Exhibit 550.
3 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, there is a last
4 bundle of exhibits. There are actually a number of
5 exhibits -- I haven't counted them offhand but say ten
6 or a dozen -- that are all bound, again, in the order
7 in which I intend to go through them, rather quickly,
8 but the Court will see -- well, let me tell the Court
9 what they are. No secret. These are a series of
10 orders starting about the 17th of March and continuing
11 until approximately the 24th of April of 1993, issued
12 by Colonel Blaskic and others, directing the HVO troops
13 to comply with it, essentially my shorthand term,
14 "International Humanitarian Law," to investigate for
15 any criminal conduct among the troops to make sure that
16 civilians were not mistreated, to make sure that
17 civilian property was not damaged or looted, to make
18 sure that any alleged atrocities were investigated.
19 You'll see that -- the Court, counsel, and the witness
20 will see that in the course of this bundle of
21 exhibits.
22 JUDGE MAY: Your having summarised it in that
23 way, is it necessary to go through them?
24 MR. SCOTT: Only briefly. I want to hit a
25 few points in each one.
Page 7574
1 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
2 MR. SCOTT:
3 Q. Let's take a little bit more time with the
4 first one, 550, just to orient everyone to the rest of
5 the bundle. Once you understand the one document, the
6 rest are somewhat similar.
7 On Exhibit 550, this is an order from
8 Colonel Blaskic dated the 17th of March, titled "The
9 Treatment of Persons Inclined to Criminal and
10 Destructive Conduct."
11 Now, looking over to the right top portion of
12 the page, sir, these are apparently -- is it correct to
13 say, as a military officer, that Colonel Blaskic is
14 directing the orders to the units, components, listed
15 there?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So he starts with commanders of HVO brigades
18 in his area of command; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. That would include the Vitez Brigade
21 commanded by Mario Cerkez?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. He gave the orders to the Vitezovi special
24 task force?
25 A. Yes.
Page 7575
1 Q. He gave the orders to the Vitez military
2 police, 4th Battalion?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. He gave the orders to chief of Travnik police
5 department?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And he gave chief -- and he gave these orders
8 to HVO presidents "(to be notified)"?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Just to highlight one of the paragraphs, in
11 paragraph number 1, it's his order -- it's -- excuse
12 me, Colonel Blaskic's order, among other things, to
13 immediately order platoon, company, and battalion
14 commanders at all levels to assess the conduct of
15 conscripts and name the persons inclined toward
16 destructive and criminal conduct in particular. Do you
17 see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, is it typical sir, that the way the --
20 in the military chain of command that when a superior
21 officer issues an order, then his subordinate officers
22 you would expect to issue orders on down the line, so
23 to speak?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. If we could go to Exhibit 553,
Page 7576
1 which is the next exhibit, Your Honour, after the
2 various -- after the French translation and B/C/S
3 translation of that document, to get to Exhibit 553.
4 Sir, this is an order the very next day, you
5 will see, the 18th of March 1993. If you look at the
6 second page of that exhibit, this was an order by Mario
7 Cerkez; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Would you -- looking at the text of his
10 order, Mr. Cerkez's order, you will see that, is it
11 essentially correct, passes on, or if you want to use
12 the word "duplicates," essentially Colonel Blaskic's
13 order; is that correct? At least the top part?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Again -- all right. Mr. Cerkez is passing it
16 on down his chain of command, including, again, the
17 people and groups listed on the top right portion,
18 "Attention: HVO leadership, Attention: 1st Battalion
19 commander," all the way down to brigade military
20 police. Do you see that?
21 A. Yes. And including the artillery commander
22 in Vitez.
23 Q. Again, as with Colonel Blaskic, paragraph 1,
24 he directs all of his subordinates to essentially
25 assess and identify any perpetrators of destructive
Page 7577
1 acts, especially criminal ones?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And if you go to Exhibit 554, --
4 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry, I have
5 to object. The evidence we just passed through alleged
6 Cerkez order under Z553. We have only translation.
7 Then there is another order, 554, which is signed by
8 the battalion commander, so a level under Cerkez, and
9 this one has the original document and translation as
10 well. But the Cerkez order does not have -- we do not
11 have a document. There's no document.
12 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
13 MR. SCOTT: Counsel's absolutely correct. I
14 can provide it. For whatever reason it was not
15 immediately with this document.
16 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you would do so as soon
17 as convenient.
18 MR. SCOTT: We'll ask someone to send it
19 over, Your Honour. My apologies. I'll check again. I
20 checked it several times, but for some reason it was
21 not with the document and my apologies to counsel but
22 it will be provided.
23 Q. If we go to Exhibit 554, as counsel has just
24 indicated, this is an order, the next day, still the
25 next day, the 19th of March, and this is by one of
Page 7578
1 Mr. Cerkez's subordinate commanders; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. This is the 1st Battalion of the Viteska
4 Brigade. So we have in this series of orders, we have
5 an order from Colonel Blaskic on the 17th of March,
6 going to Mario Cerkez, Mario Cerkez's order on the 18th
7 of March to his subordinates, and then an order on the
8 19th of March from one of Mr. Cerkez's subordinates to
9 his officers; is that correct?
10 A. Yes it is.
11 Q. Going to Exhibit 572, it should be the next
12 in the bundle. This is an order from Colonel Blaskic
13 dated the 26th of March, 1993, and essentially setting
14 out again directed to all unit commanders in the
15 Central Bosnia Operative Zone, "Subject: Clarification
16 on persons authorised to appoint and dismiss officers
17 and noncommissioned officers," and according to
18 Colonel Blaskic and the official publications of the
19 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, one might refer to
20 it as the Narodni List or Official Gazette, he then
21 lists at the various levels persons authorised to
22 appoint and dismiss officers; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Pointing your attention to, in particular,
25 for present purposes, paragraph number 3, is it made
Page 7579
1 clear, sir, that the brigade commanders, such as Mario
2 Cerkez, had the authority to appoint and dismiss
3 subordinate officers?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Going to the next exhibit, 715, this is an
6 order by Colonel Blaskic dated the 18th of April. And
7 in among other things, I just want to highlight
8 paragraph 4, gather the relevant data about the actors
9 of the conflict, the causes of banishing people,
10 murdering civilians and soldiers, burning houses and
11 other buildings. And Colonel Blaskic ordered all of
12 his commanders to make those inquiries; is that
13 correct?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. This was copied, you will see at the top, to
16 the UNPROFOR commander, Colonel Stewart, and to the
17 ECMM; is that correct?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. By this time, in fact, there was some --
20 there had already been some outcry about the incidents
21 around Ahmici and Vitez; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In fact, do you recall that both Colonel
24 Stewart and the ECMM were making demands on Mr. Blaskic
25 at this time -- Colonel Blaskic -- to investigate these
Page 7580
1 atrocities?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. SCOTT: I see that counsel is on his
4 feet, Your Honour.
5 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, without going into
6 the details, a couple of those documents, again, we
7 only have translations, not the original document.
8 JUDGE MAY: Could you give us the numbers,
9 please, so we could --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please,
11 Mr. President.
12 MR. KOVACIC: 572. 572 at least, because the
13 other one issued by Blaskic, 715, seems to be issued at
14 that time in both languages, English and Croatian.
15 MR. SCOTT: Same commitment, Your Honour.
16 We're inquiring now, electronically, as we can.
17 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you.
18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, if there are any
19 others missing, just shout out, will you, as we go
20 through, if the originals are missing.
21 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you.
22 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour.
23 Q. All right. I think we'll move -- 767 is just
24 another order from Colonel Blaskic in a similar tone,
25 the date of the 21st of April, the 22nd -- 781 is again
Page 7581
1 the 22nd of April, 1993, by Colonel Blaskic. Among
2 other things, item 1: "I strictly prohibit the
3 torching of houses and other commercial facilities and
4 looting in the zone of responsibility of Central Bosnia
5 Operative Zone."
6 2: "Brigade and independent unit commanders
7 must issue an order to their subordinates to make them
8 responsible for preventing such crimes."
9 3: "The most stringent measures shall be
10 taken against violators of this order pursuant to the
11 regulation book on military discipline in HVO units."
12 Going to Exhibit 791, order from Colonel
13 Blaskic on the 23rd of April, 1993, some six or seven
14 days after Ahmici, to all subordinate HVO commanders
15 concerning the behaviour of HVO members and the level
16 of military discipline. Colonel Blaskic says:
17 "Because of very strong condemnation from the
18 international community and the media campaign that is
19 being conducted against the HVO and the Croatian
20 people, which have extremely negative consequences for
21 the overall reputation of the HVO and the achievements
22 of the Croatian people globally, and in order to
23 prevent further destructive activities and fully
24 implement the orders of the HVO chief of staff or the
25 main headquarters," and Colonel Blaskic gives further
Page 7582
1 orders. Is that correct, sir?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Exhibit 804 is to a similar effect. So is
4 Exhibit 805, treatment of the wounded.
5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott,
6 we're going through these documents. We have them.
7 Where do you intend to go with these documents in
8 relation to the witness? What are you seeking to prove
9 to us by going through and rereading these documents?
10 We have them, in effect.
11 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] We know what
13 they are about. You can mention them to us, but do you
14 wish to obtain special information from the witness
15 about these documents? Because we are coming to the
16 end of the examination, and I think we need to save
17 time. Thank you.
18 MR. SCOTT: Absolutely. And the Court is
19 absolutely correct, and no, I'm not going to go into
20 any additional of these orders, other than the last
21 two, in a few minutes. The purpose of the exercise was
22 both to acquaint the Court with these orders and as a
23 foundation to several follow-up questions to Major
24 Baggesen.
25 Q. Major, as you said a few moments ago, is it
Page 7583
1 correct to say that a military commander is expected
2 and in fact required not only to issue orders but to
3 make sure they are carried out?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what is the responsibility of a military
6 commander if he finds that his orders are not being
7 carried out?
8 A. The consequence could be that he had to
9 replace one of his subordinate commanders. So if a
10 commander of one of his units is not following this
11 order, then he had to remove him.
12 Q. All right. Let me ask you here, sir, some
13 questions that fit in here that may come up in other
14 testimony. Are you familiar with the concept or term
15 called a "forward command post"?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What is a forward command post?
18 A. A forward command post is a command post
19 where the commander, with some of his staff, will be
20 when an operation is going on. Example, if you are
21 fighting and you have your troops in the field, then
22 the commander of the unit would be in his forward
23 command post, in the field, close to a front.
24 Q. During your tenure in Central Bosnia, did you
25 learn that General Bobetko of the Croatian army, the
Page 7584
1 HV, had established a forward command post in Central
2 Bosnia, at Gornji Vakuf?
3 A. We were told, but I haven't been in Gornji
4 Vakuf; just passed through Gornji Vakuf. I've never
5 been there as a monitor.
6 Q. Had that information been reported and made
7 known to the ECMM?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. SCOTT: In terms of military police chain
10 of command, it may be most helpful if you can have --
11 if the witness could be provided a piece of paper on
12 the ELMO, Your Honour, because I think he can diagram
13 an answer to my question the way he showed it to me,
14 and it would be the most helpful.
15 Q. Major, if you could, if you could show a box
16 at the brigade -- at a brigade level of what you would
17 expect -- what the command structure would be like in
18 terms of -- would there be a unit under the brigade
19 level for military police?
20 A. Yes. In a NATO army, per se, the military
21 police normally started at the corps level. At the
22 corps level, there's normally a military police
23 battalion. At brigade level, there's normally one
24 military police company, or corps, and this military
25 police unit is coming from this unit [indicates]. But
Page 7585
1 the commander of this brigade has a military police
2 company in operational control. From the brigade, the
3 brigade commander is able to take one platoon from this
4 military police company and put it down to the
5 battalion level.
6 Q. All right. So you've shown us on this chart
7 -- and we'll mark this as an exhibit, Your Honour --
8 you've shown us from the level of the corps -- from the
9 corps -- from the level of the corps to the brigade to
10 the battalion, but focusing on that -- I'm sorry, yes,
11 you can leave it on for a moment -- what is now
12 essentially the middle of the page, the military police
13 unit would be assigned at the brigade level, and for
14 day-to-day operational control, who would control that
15 military -- who would control that military police
16 unit?
17 A. The brigade commander.
18 Q. Perhaps, on the exhibit, if I could just
19 suggest, could you draw perhaps some other dotted line
20 from the brigade command, what would be indicative of
21 the brigade commander to that military police unit?
22 A. Yes [indicates]. Okay?
23 Q. Yes?
24 JUDGE MAY: Where are we on the outline,
25 please?
Page 7586
1 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, we're between 237
2 and 238. It's my mistake for not having updated the
3 outline. But that's it, Your Honour. We're now going
4 to 238.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Scott?
6 MR. SCOTT: Yes, sir?
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is the structure as put
8 forward by the Major, is that a universal structure, in
9 military --
10 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. That was my
11 next -- I guess 238 was the next -- Mr. President, that
12 was my next question.
13 Q. You've indicated, Major, that this would be
14 the common structure in a NATO army. Based on your
15 experience in having analysed the Warsaw Pact forces
16 for many years and on any experience or training you
17 observed in Central Bosnia, do you know whether that
18 structure, or something very similar to it, applied to
19 the HVO forces?
20 A. The structure was similar in the Warsaw Pact
21 and in the Soviet Bloc, and it was similar in the JNA.
22 Q. All right. So at least as to the JNA
23 doctrine and practice, that would have been the
24 structure, to best of your knowledge?
25 A. Yes.
Page 7587
1 Q. All right. Now, moving on to --
2 JUDGE MAY: Well, if you're going to move
3 on --
4 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MAY: -- away from that exhibit --
6 MR. SCOTT: Yes.
7 JUDGE MAY: -- we must get it marked.
8 And perhaps, Major, if you could write on the
9 top of it, so we have it for future reference,
10 something to the effect of "NATO Military Police
11 Structure," if that's right.
12 A. Yes, I can do that.
13 JUDGE MAY: If you would do that, and then
14 sign it "Major Baggesen", and then we will remember in
15 the months to come.
16 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, our case manager
17 indicates that we can't assign it a number at the
18 moment, but we promise to, at the first opportune
19 moment, inform the Court and registrar what the number
20 is in our list, existing list.
21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott,
22 you have shown us a certain number of documents, and if
23 I understand well, regarding the orders issued by
24 Colonel Blaskic, concerning offences and behaviour
25 contrary to international law, committed at lower
Page 7588
1 levels, we have seen this diagram shown to us regarding
2 the position of the military police in the hierarchy.
3 Does that mean that these orders did not go right down
4 to the bottom? That is a question that we could ask
5 the witness. Does the witness know what happened with
6 these orders that you have just quoted from in detail,
7 and which have been confirmed to have been issued by
8 Colonel Blaskic? Therefore does he know what happened
9 to these orders that were issued? Were they
10 implemented to the best knowledge of the witness, or
11 were they intentionally ignored? What happened to
12 these orders, if the witness knows?
13 A. Your Honour, when we visited the subunits, we
14 didn't know anything about these orders. We asked them
15 because we knew that Colonel Blaskic had made some
16 orders and normally when we are -- we were visiting the
17 different headquarters, we asked them if they had
18 received orders to do this and this and this. And on
19 the other side, we didn't see any proof that any
20 soldiers who have been responsible for looting or
21 burning houses had been punished. So he made the
22 orders, as he should do as a commander, but if he sent
23 them to his units or he put them into a drawer, we
24 don't know. We have not seen the orders at the lower
25 level commands. So I cannot -- I don't know.
Page 7589
1 JUDGE MAY: There is a mistake in the
2 transcript, I see. At the beginning of the Major's
3 answer, it reads "when we visited the subunits, we
4 didn't know anything about these orders."
5 Is that what you said, Major?
6 A. They.
7 JUDGE MAY: That's what I thought you said,
8 "They didn't know about the orders." Yes. That's a
9 crucial difference.
10 A. Actually, Your Honour, we saw that the
11 Viteska Brigade commander, Mr. Cerkez, had the order
12 and he gave an order to his battalion level, but we
13 haven't seen anything from other units. The commander
14 in Kiseljak, he didn't know about this order.
15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Now you're
16 giving us some additional information in relation to
17 your previous statement. You said Commander Cerkez did
18 receive orders from Colonel Blaskic.
19 A. Well, just --
20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] You were
21 able to verify that Mr. Cerkez, as a brigade commander,
22 had indeed received orders from Colonel Blaskic. They
23 were transmitted to him. But you didn't see, at the
24 level of lower units, that they were passed on after
25 that.
Page 7590
1 A. I have only seen the surface orders here in
2 court just before, one of these. That's what I was
3 trying to say. I have only seen this one.
4 JUDGE MAY: The Exhibit 553.
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE MAY: Dated the 18th of March.
7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] If I
8 understand you correctly, except for this document,
9 that is, the Exhibit 553, you yourself, when you went
10 out into the field, you never saw any trace of
11 Colonel Blaskic's orders at the level of various units
12 in the field. You never saw those orders because when
13 on the ground, they didn't tell you about
14 General Blaskic's orders to put an end to offensive and
15 criminal behaviour that has been noted by you over
16 there. Am I correct in understanding you?
17 A. Yes, you're correct, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 MR. SCOTT:
20 Q. All right. Just to finish on that before
21 moving on then, Major. It's your testimony that by --
22 in the few days following the events in Ahmici on the
23 16th of April --
24 A. Can I have that question again, please?
25 Q. Yes. I was just waiting on the Court.
Page 7591
1 It's your testimony that by -- or during the
2 first few days following the events in Ahmici on the
3 16th of April, by that time there was known to be an
4 international outcry about the alleged atrocities in
5 Ahmici; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. It was generally known -- in fact, some of
8 the orders that Colonel Blaskic was sending, copies of
9 his orders to the ECMM; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And he had, thereafter, at least on paper,
12 made a number of orders?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So those you did know or the ECMM did know
15 that those orders existed?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You knew that he had issued orders after
18 Ahmici; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, he did.
20 Q. All right. Now, sir, you had been on the
21 Busovaca Joint Commission when you first arrived in
22 April of 1993; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. To your knowledge, is it correct that the
25 Busovaca Joint Commission was established in January
Page 7592
1 1993 and continued for approximately five months into
2 approximately the latter part of April 1993?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. During the time that you were a member of the
5 Busovaca Joint Commission, would it be fair to say that
6 both yourself and other members of ECMM made a number
7 of complaints on a regular basis about the conduct of
8 HVO units and soldiers?
9 A. Yes, we did.
10 Q. The usual HVO representative at these
11 commission meetings was Colonel Blaskic's deputy,
12 Franjo Nakic; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Once you were no longer personally involved
15 in the Busovaca Joint Commission, is it your
16 understanding, from your colleagues, that the ECMM
17 continued to protest and make complaints about HVO
18 conduct at Busovaca Joint Commission meetings?
19 A. Yes, in the commission that they were placed,
20 the Busovaca Joint Commission.
21 Q. What was the name of that?
22 A. Joint Operation Commission, I think it was.
23 Q. During -- at any time during your tour in
24 Central Bosnia, after these complaints were made, did
25 any information come to your attention that any HVO
Page 7593
1 unit or soldier had been disciplined or punished in
2 connection with any of these -- any of this misconduct?
3 A. Not to my knowledge.
4 Q. Can you tell the Court, did you learn, during
5 your time in Bosnia, that there was an instance, in
6 fact, where one HVO Brigade commander was relieved of
7 duty?
8 A. Yes. There was one brigade or battalion
9 commander that was replaced by Colonel Blaskic because
10 this commander refused to attack a civilian village,
11 civilian Muslim village.
12 Q. To your recollection, is it correct sir, that
13 that HVO Brigade commander's name was Stjepan Tuka?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. If I can direct your attention and the
16 Court's attention to Exhibit 731.
17 MR. SCOTT: These are the last two exhibits,
18 Your Honour.
19 Q. This is an order from Colonel Blaskic dated
20 the 19th of April, 1993, to the commander of Fojnica
21 battalion personally, and I may have misspoke if I said
22 "brigade commander," but this HVO commander, directing
23 him, or Colonel Blaskic says:
24 "I call to your attention your duty to
25 execute and comply with the orders issued by the
Page 7594
1 commander of the Kiseljak Ban Jelacic Brigade."
2 Do you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. "Otherwise you will be replaced and will be
5 held responsible in compliance with the regulations of
6 Herceg-Bosna in line with military discipline."
7 Is that correct?
8 A. Yes. Yes.
9 Q. To go on to Exhibit 743, the last in this
10 bundle. This is a further order dated the 20th of
11 April, 1993, by Colonel Blaskic, as indicated in
12 paragraph -- well, to the commanders of the brigades,
13 the Busovaca Brigade, and to the Fojnica Brigade or
14 Battalion, and Colonel Blaskic says:
15 "I hereby dismiss Mr. Stjepan Tuka from the
16 post of commander of the 3rd Battalion of the --"
17 which was the Busovaca Brigade. Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. This incident or this set of events was known
20 to you and to ECMM in the spring of 1993; is that
21 correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Your understanding was the reason that
24 Mr. Tuka was relieved of command is because he refused
25 to attack Muslim civilians?
Page 7595
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you know of any other order or situation
3 of any HVO officer being disciplined during your tour
4 of duty in Central Bosnia other than Stjepan Tuka?
5 A. No.
6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott,
7 if I understood well your question to the witness,
8 Mr. Tuka -- Commander Tuka was dismissed because he
9 refused to attack Muslim civilians. Was that the
10 question you put to the witness? How does the witness
11 know that? Did the witness see a document or how does
12 he know the reason for Mr. Tuka's dismissal?
13 MR. SCOTT:
14 Q. Can you say, Major?
15 A. Yes. We were told not by Mr. Tuka, but
16 another team were going to have a meeting in the
17 Kiseljak area, and they were going to have a meeting
18 with Mr. Tuka. They were told that he was not present
19 any more because he was replaced, and he was replaced
20 because he didn't want to -- I can't remember if it was
21 Fojnica, but he was replaced because he refused to
22 attack a Muslim village. So it had been told to one of
23 our teams by members of the HVO.
24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] So somebody
25 in your team told you that he heard it from somebody
Page 7596
1 from the HVO, but you cannot tell us the names of the
2 people concerned?
3 A. Not who specifically from the HVO told it to
4 one of our team, but they were going to have a meeting
5 with Mr. Tuka, and when they came to his headquarters,
6 the team was told that he was replaced because he
7 didn't want to carry out this order.
8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] But who
9 among your team in the ECMM -- who is the person who
10 told you about this? Could you tell us that?
11 A. Your Honour, I cannot recall which team were
12 in Kiseljak at that time or who was a member of the
13 team.
14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 In any event, apart from this information that you
16 received through an intermediary, you have no other
17 information to corroborate this report regarding the
18 motives which led to the dismissal of Mr. Tuka? You
19 have no other evidence except this?
20 A. No. But there may be other evidence, because
21 I can remember that it was discussed with the UNPROFOR
22 unit in Kiseljak. So maybe they have some other
23 evidence on that.
24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Scott, do you have any other
25 evidence that you'll call about this?
Page 7597
1 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, we have other
2 evidence. I think we have exhausted this particular
3 witness's knowledge, but I think I can represent to the
4 Court that there's other witness and documentary
5 evidence concerning this matter.
6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Finally, just one further point of military
9 command. Sir, in your -- based on your training
10 experience, in a situation where the physical geography
11 of a command might be physically disconnected, if you
12 will, and his area might be divided in some fashion,
13 does that any way relieve or excuse him from meeting
14 his command obligations?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Based on your training and experience, not
17 only in the Danish army but your knowledge of NATO
18 armies and the Warsaw Pact armies, do the military
19 commanders ultimately report to their political
20 superiors?
21 A. That's normal, yes, on the higher level.
22 Q. In your experience, sir, have you ever known
23 of a Colonel being promoted to General who had not --
24 who did not -- had not carried out the wishes of his
25 political masters?
Page 7598
1 A. No.
2 JUDGE MAY: I don't think we need an answer
3 on that. It will be for us to draw conclusions in
4 respect to the witness.
5 MR. SCOTT:
6 Q. What happened -- let me ask you this
7 question, sir: What are the ramifications for a
8 military officer if he is known among his colleagues
9 and among his superiors for not -- if I can repeat.
10 What are the ramifications for a military
11 officer if he is known among his colleagues or
12 superiors as not being able to control his subordinates
13 or troops?
14 A. Then he will not be promoted to a higher
15 rank.
16 Q. That would be viewed as a serious deficiency
17 for an officer, would it not?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. To the best of your knowledge, sir, was your
20 work as an ECMM monitor fully respected and subject to
21 commendation by the ECMM and your colleagues?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Following your tenure as an ECMM monitor in
24 Bosnia, is it correct, sir, that you in fact, trained
25 new monitors for the ECMM for the former Yugoslavia?
Page 7599
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. In 1996, sir, were you asked by the Danish
3 Centre for Human Rights to train Russian civilian human
4 rights monitors for service in Chechnya?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I can now give some
7 further clarification for sitting down on exhibits.
8 The drawing that mister -- excuse me, Major Baggesen
9 did can be marked as 2768, 2-7-6-8, and I do have the
10 Serbo-Croatian translations for Exhibit 572 and 553,
11 with apologies to counsel.
12 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps someone could pass that
13 across.
14 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Usher?
15 JUDGE MAY: Usher, if you could pass the
16 document, please.
17 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. No
18 further questions.
19 MR. KOVACIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour, but I'm
20 now not sure. We were not asking for Serbo-Croatian
21 translation of the document, we were asking for the
22 original document which is supposed to be issued in the
23 Croatian language.
24 MR. SCOTT: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I think
25 this ought to be further clarified then. Did I say --
Page 7600
1 the orders are the original or copies of the original.
2 I didn't mean translations.
3 JUDGE MAY: Can the matter be clarified
4 perhaps during the adjournment?
5 MR. SCOTT: I would think so, Your Honour.
6 It was my mistake. I should not have used the word
7 "translation." They are the B/C/S originals of the
8 orders.
9 MR. KOVACIC: Just in order to clear that,
10 there are also two other documents used. It is Z767
11 and Z805, where copies of the original Croatian
12 language documents are not legible at all. It's not
13 that, you know, you can recognise a part of it, none,
14 nothing, zero.
15 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, we'll attempt to
16 address the matter further.
17 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
18 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you.
19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, if you'd like to make
20 a start, and when you find a convenient moment, about
21 11.00, we'll adjourn.
22 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Mr. President. I
23 have tried to put together a list of or a bunch of
24 documents that I will try to go through sequentially
25 with the witness. I've tried to make sure that the
Page 7601
1 exhibits are all arranged in chronological order, and I
2 hope it will facilitate an expeditious handling of the
3 cross-examination. With the Court's permission, I'd
4 like to hand those up.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could we have copies for
6 the booths, please?
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers:
8 Q. While that's being attended to, Major, good
9 morning. My name is Stephen Sayers. I represent Dario
10 Kordic.
11 Major, you've demonstrated an ability to
12 answer in terse military language yes or no to
13 questions, and that has facilitated the prompt handling
14 of your direct-examination. I'd like to use the same
15 technique in the not unrealistic hope, I hope, that we
16 will be through with you by the end of the day. Is
17 that acceptable?
18 A. Yes, that's fine.
19 Q. If you need to say more than yes or no to
20 questions, please let me know and we'll have the
21 explanation given to the Trial Chamber.
22 You were asked questions about the diagram
23 that you drew, Exhibit Z2768, the chain of command of
24 the military police. As I understand it, sir, you are
25 of the opinion that the military police commanders
Page 7602
1 exercised at corps level?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That detachments of the military police are
4 then seconded essentially to battalion level; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And then from battalion level down to brigade
7 level; correct?
8 A. No, to company level.
9 Q. To company level. Very well. That's not
10 unusual in military organisations, is it? In fact,
11 that's the structure of the military police command
12 that you observed in the HVO during your time in
13 Central Bosnia; correct?
14 A. Actually, we were not sure if they were using
15 the same structure as what's known from the JNA and
16 from other armies.
17 Q. Were you sure about what the military police
18 command in the Muslim forces was, sir?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You mentioned that complaints about HVO
21 conduct were relatively routine at the Busovaca Joint
22 Commission meetings and at the organisation that
23 followed that, the joint operations command. The same
24 is true of conduct of the Muslim forces, is it not?
25 A. Yes.
Page 7603
1 Q. Now, you do not speak any Croatian, do you?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You relied upon interpreters?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In the Blaskic case, you informed the Court
6 that you had been instructed that you were not
7 permitted to converse or speak with Defence lawyers;
8 correct?
9 A. Yes. Not ordered.
10 Q. Instructed?
11 A. No. It was up to ourselves if you want to do
12 that.
13 Q. But you did not converse with the Defence
14 lawyers in the Blaskic case, did you?
15 A. No, because they already had my statement.
16 Q. And the same is true in this case, is it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, you kept a contemporaneous document
19 called a "War Diary"; correct?
20 A. Yes. It was a personal diary I kept for
21 myself. It was not -- it should not be an official
22 document. If I had known it would be an official
23 document, I would have maybe used some other words. So
24 it was just a private diary.
25 MR. SAYERS: I would like to have a copy of
Page 7604
1 this marked as the next exhibit. This is a copy of the
2 Major's war diary, Your Honour, and I do not believe
3 that there are any personal details in here that would
4 be embarrassing to the Major. The entries pretty much
5 are consumed solely with his observations during his
6 time in Central Bosnia.
7 Q. That's consistent with your recollection, is
8 it?
9 A. Yes. Some of my observations and some of my
10 personal -- what I have are feelings about what
11 happened down there.
12 Q. Very well.
13 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be
14 Exhibit D75/1.
15 MR. SAYERS:
16 Q. You actually provided an edited version to
17 the Prosecution of this diary, did you not?
18 A. No, I didn't. Actually, I don't know how the
19 Prosecutor's office had a copy of my diary. It may
20 have been given to them by one of the other witnesses.
21 Q. Was it maintained by you in handwriting, or
22 did you type it up?
23 A. In the beginning, in Bosnia, it was
24 handwriting. When I came back, when I had to work all
25 my -- work it all through, I typed it on my computer.
Page 7605
1 Q. All right.
2 A. In Danish. And then this had been translated
3 from the Croatian translation of the Danish original,
4 so ...
5 Q. The diary covers March the 30th until July
6 the 1st, 1993; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. There's a large block from April the 6th to
9 April the 18th which was not maintained
10 contemporaneously; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Just a summary of your observations during
13 that time period?
14 A. Yes, because I didn't have time enough to
15 write the diary at that time.
16 Q. All right. So would it be fair to say that
17 in this contemporaneous document, you noted down
18 significant events, significant meetings, and
19 significant personages that you came into contact with
20 during your ten weeks, I believe, in Central Bosnia;
21 correct?
22 A. Some of it. Some of it. Not everything.
23 Q. All right. And you would agree with me that
24 there is not a single mention of Mr. Kordic's name
25 anywhere in that contemporaneous chronicle of
Page 7606
1 significant events, significant meetings, and
2 significant persons; is that correct, sir?
3 A. I think maybe he is mentioned once or twice.
4 Q. Well, I'm sure, if he is, that will be
5 pointed out to you.
6 Now, you testified for three days in the
7 Blaskic case in 1997; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you've give a statement over the course
10 of two days in August of 1996 to the investigators for
11 the Prosecution; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How long did you spend with the Prosecutors
14 going over your testimony over the last -- that you've
15 given over the last two days, sir?
16 A. I arrived this Monday, and I had a meeting, I
17 think Tuesday, with the Prosecutor's office. And then
18 I have been waiting for coming in court.
19 Q. As I understand it, you were actually in
20 Central Bosnia from April the 2nd to June the 28th,
21 1993. Correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. With a holiday back in Denmark
24 from May the 19th to June the 1st of 1993?
25 A. Yes.
Page 7607
1 Q. So ten weeks is the total time that you spent
2 in Central Bosnia, sir?
3 A. Maybe.
4 Q. All right. Isn't it true, sir, that it was
5 completely normal for you to see burned houses in every
6 village in Central Bosnia when you were there?
7 A. It was.
8 Q. Isn't it true also that in your personal
9 view, essentially the legal institutions had broken
10 down completely? The central government wasn't
11 functioning in any realistic way, was it?
12 A. No. [Indiscernible] ... work in the military
13 way.
14 Q. The civil police, in your opinion, were
15 virtually ineffective, weren't they?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. People were getting robbed or shot routinely,
18 weren't they, on both sides?
19 A. Both sides, yes.
20 Q. And in fact, you found the area embroiled in
21 a general state of social, ethnic, and political
22 anarchy and chaos, didn't you?
23 A. Something like that, yes.
24 Q. And in fact, sir, it was absolutely routine
25 and standard for both sides to try to pin the blame for
Page 7608
1 events or incidents upon each other; isn't that
2 correct?
3 A. Yes. And that was our job too, to do the
4 fact-finding, to see -- to find the truth.
5 Q. Right. But it was a standard explanation
6 from both sides, when confronted with a particular
7 unpleasant event, that there were uncontrolled elements
8 within the armed forces that were responsible for that;
9 isn't that right?
10 A. They were known using that excuse, yes.
11 Q. Yes. Now, you actually received a briefing
12 in connection with your duties as a European Community
13 Monitoring Mission monitor; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You were briefed that the commander of the
16 3rd Corps in Zenica was General Enver Hadzihasanovic;
17 right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you met him a number of times?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. At his headquarters in Zenica?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. His opposite number, you were briefed, on the
24 HVO side, was Colonel Tihomir Blaskic; right?
25 A. Yes.
Page 7609
1 Q. You met Colonel Blaskic, I believe, about 10
2 or 15 times during your sojourn in Central Bosnia?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You were briefed, I believe you testified,
5 that the main Bosnian Croat political leader was
6 Mr. Kordic. Could you just let the Trial Chamber know
7 who you were briefed was the main Muslim political
8 leader in Central Bosnia?
9 A. I can remember that the -- we were discussing
10 matters concerning Muslims in Central Bosnia. We were
11 discussing it with the vice-president -- I cannot
12 remember his name just now. I know his name, but I
13 cannot remember it, sitting here. Maybe you can help
14 me.
15 Q. Well, if you do, you do, and if you don't,
16 you don't. Were you briefed who the Muslim political
17 leader in Central Bosnia was?
18 JUDGE MAY: Well, the first question is, was
19 he briefed that there was such a political leader?
20 A. Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MAY: You were? But you don't remember
22 his name?
23 A. No.
24 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
25 MR. SAYERS:
Page 7610
1 Q. You were also briefed, I believe, sir, and if
2 you turn to the ECMM briefing document which has been
3 marked Z495, and it's dated February the 25th in the
4 chronological package that I've given to you, just turn
5 to the document that is dated February the 25th, 1993.
6 If you would turn to page 6 --
7 JUDGE MAY: Whereabouts are we in the bundle,
8 please?
9 MR. SAYERS: There is a series of documents,
10 Your Honour, which are arranged chronologically.
11 They've all been separately stapled, and I'm referring
12 to the ECMM briefing summary. If you just undo the
13 bundle, you will see it, for February the 25th, 1993.
14 JUDGE MAY: Is it the third, "Introduction
15 Brief for New ECM Mission Monitors," number 3?
16 MR. SAYERS: Yes.
17 Q. Specifically I would like to address your
18 attention to page 6 of this document.
19 Is it true that you were briefed that the
20 army commanded by General Sefer Halilovic was 50.000 to
21 60.000 strong?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were you told in your briefing that the army
24 had become much more organised and better equipped
25 during the past six months?
Page 7611
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And when I refer to "the army," of course,
3 I'm referring to the forces under the command of
4 General Sefer Halilovic, the ABiH; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. Were you instructed that the
7 military organisation of the ABiH was that they had
8 been divided -- the forces had been divided into five
9 separate corps, with the 3rd Corps headquartered in
10 Zenica?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you were also instructed that there was a
13 new formation of the Muslim forces army which accepts
14 on Islamic soldiers from Bosnia and abroad and was
15 assessed at about 2.000 strong; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. Now, did you understand that the
18 Croats constituted a minority of about 17 per cent to
19 18 per cent of the total population of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina?
21 A. Say again?
22 Q. Did you understand that the Croats only
23 constituted about 17 to 18 per cent of the total
24 population in Bosnia-Herzegovina? I'm not asking
25 questions about that document --
Page 7612
1 A. [Indiscernible] I'm sorry. That confused
2 me.
3 Q. That's all right. My fault.
4 A. I cannot remember the --
5 Q. Very well. Is it your understanding,
6 however, that the Bosnian Croats were in a significant
7 minority by comparison to the overall population of the
8 country?
9 A. No.
10 Q. It was not? All right.
11 Would it be fair to say --
12 A. Sorry, not in the specific area where I was
13 working. Are you speaking of the whole of Bosnia?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Then you're right.
16 Q. Yes.
17 Now, would it be fair to say that you were
18 shot at fairly frequently by both sides?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In fact, it was extremely dangerous to move
21 around or to try to move around from one locality to
22 another, wasn't it?
23 A. It was.
24 Q. During your work in the Joint Humanitarian
25 Commission which you've described, isn't it true that
Page 7613
1 one of your colleagues, Mr. Zarko Malenica, was shot to
2 death by a sniper as he was travelling from Busovaca to
3 Vitez?
4 A. Yes. He and a colleague went into an ambush,
5 and they were --
6 Q. Ambushed by Muslim forces; correct?
7 A. We don't know, but they were ambushed.
8 Q. But they were Croats; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Mr. Malenica and his colleague, Mr. Mravak?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And people being shot to death by snipers on
13 both sides, unfortunately, was simply a fact of life in
14 Central Bosnia, wasn't it?
15 A. It was.
16 Q. With respect to your time in Vitez, it would
17 be fair to say, sir, that you were actually based in
18 Zenica?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And throughout your time there, that was a
21 Muslim-dominated city, controlled --
22 A. Yes it was.
23 Q. All right. And in fact, isn't it true to say
24 that the HVO military forces in Zenica were expunged on
25 April the 18th, and that the headquarters of the Jure
Page 7614
1 Francetic Brigade was basically captured by the ABiH?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. And as I understand it, sir, you spent a
4 grand total of five to six nights in Vitez during your
5 ten-week tour in Central Bosnia?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And one of those nights just happened to be a
8 night that's of considerable interest to the Trial
9 Chamber, the night of April 15th to the 16th.
10 Just a few questions on your knowledge of
11 Bosnian Croat political institutions, and if you don't
12 know, just tell me, and I'll move on quickly. Do you
13 know what the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna is?
14 A. I have -- it's difficult for me to remember,
15 because there was a lot of change [indiscernible] the
16 government. I cannot recall it all.
17 Q. Fair enough. At the time that you were
18 present in Central Bosnia, we've seen several documents
19 that make a reference to the president of the HVO,
20 Dr. Jadranko Prlic, one of them being Exhibit Z757, and
21 I would just like you to turn to that, if you would.
22 JUDGE MAY: This is one of the Prosecution
23 exhibits, is it?
24 MR. SAYERS: Yes, it is indeed,
25 Mr. President.
Page 7615
1 JUDGE MAY: 757?
2 MR. SAYERS: 757, and I am specifically
3 referring to page 3.
4 A. I don't have the document here.
5 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have the
6 document: 757, Z757.
7 MR. SAYERS:
8 Q. Very well, Major. If you would just turn to
9 the third page.
10 The station chief, Mr. Andersen, refers to a
11 meeting between the ECMM and a Dr. Ganic, who is the
12 vice-president of Bosnia-Herzegovina, along with
13 Dr. Prlic, who is the HVO president, and apparently
14 this resulted in an agreement at the political level?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you ever meet Mr. Prlic, or Dr. Prlic?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you ever speak to him on the telephone?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you know anything about him at all?
21 A. No.
22 Q. All right.
23 A. Not that I can recall.
24 Q. That's fine. If you take a look at the
25 bottom of page 2 and the top of page 3, there's a
Page 7616
1 reference to a meeting which had been interrupted by an
2 HVO Minister of Defence claiming that a large-scale
3 ABiH offensive was on the way on the 18th of April, I
4 believe. Do you know who that gentleman might have
5 been, the HVO Minister of Defence?
6 A. No. I was not present at the meeting, and I
7 can't remember all the names.
8 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber whether or not
9 Mr. Kordic ever held a position in the HVO?
10 JUDGE MAY: Major, that is a question -- this
11 isn't a memory test.
12 A. No.
13 JUDGE MAY: So if you can't remember, just
14 say so, or if you simply don't know, just say so.
15 A. I can remember that during his own
16 presentation to me, I was told that he was a
17 vice-president of the HDZ. I can remember that he
18 mentioned that he had some other -- what would you call
19 it -- jobs as well. We knew that he was a political
20 leader in Central Bosnia, and that -- I think his
21 superior was Mr. Boban.
22 MR. SAYERS:
23 Q. Very well.
24 A. That's what I can remember.
25 Q. Did you ever learn of the existence of the
Page 7617
1 Minister of Defence of the Republic of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Bozo Rajic?
3 A. I cannot recall the name.
4 Q. All right. The Trial Chamber has heard some
5 evidence about an order that was supposedly issued by
6 this gentleman obliging the ABiH forces in
7 Croat-designated cantons under the Vance-Owen Plan to
8 submit themselves to the HVO.
9 MR. SAYERS: I wonder if the witness might be
10 shown Prosecution Exhibit 390,2, which was Brigadier
11 General Cordy-Simpson's document, for the Court's
12 information.
13 Q. What I'm interested in, Major, are the two
14 attachments to this document.
15 JUDGE MAY: You'll be shown it, Major.
16 390.2; it's a Prosecution document.
17 MR. SAYERS:
18 Q. Major, I'm afraid it's not in -- or maybe it
19 is -- oh, it is, yes; I'm sorry. The date of it is
20 January the 24th, 1993.
21 JUDGE MAY: Could we find out what documents
22 the witness has? This is a Prosecution Exhibit --
23 MR. SAYERS: Yes.
24 JUDGE MAY: -- 390.2, and I would guess the
25 Registrar has it.
Page 7618
1 MR. SAYERS: I think that's correct, Your
2 Honour.
3 Q. Thank you, Major. Specifically I'm looking
4 at the two documents that are attached to this special
5 assessment, I think it's called, entitled "Croat
6 Intentions for Provinces 3, 8, and 10." The first one
7 is, or appears to be, an order of some sort that was
8 issued in Mostar on January the 15th, 1993. Do you see
9 that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And this is issued by the headquarters of the
12 HVO. Then the next document is issued by the Ministry
13 of Defence in Sarajevo, three days later, the Ministry
14 of Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you see that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. As I understand it, the order is that,
17 number 1, it says: "All units of the Croatian Defence
18 Council which are in this moment settled in provinces
19 1, 5, and 9, declared as Muslim provinces, in
20 accordance with the Geneva Agreements, are to be placed
21 under the higher command of the BH army headquarters."
22 Was that consistent with your understanding?
23 A. Can I have your question again, sir?
24 Q. Yes. Was it your understanding that in
25 provinces 1, 5, and 9, the HVO forces were to be placed
Page 7619
1 under the command of the ABiH, and that the mirror
2 image of that arrangement was to occur in provinces 3,
3 8, and 10, as you can see from paragraph 2 of this
4 order?
5 A. Yes, but I haven't seen this document before
6 I saw it in court.
7 Q. So you are saying that the first time that
8 you've seen this entire Prosecution exhibit was in
9 court yesterday?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. Thank you. Let me move on.
12 A. Maybe I saw it in Bosnia, but I cannot
13 remember it. It's six years ago.
14 MR. SAYERS:
15 Q. Turning to the military and political
16 hierarchy in two towns in Central Bosnia with which you
17 had some acquaintance; first of all, in Vitez: Do I
18 understand that this was the headquarters of the
19 commander of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone, Colonel
20 Blaskic?
21 A. Yes. He had his office at the Hotel Vitez.
22 Q. It was the headquarters of a gentleman that
23 you've identified as brigade commander of the Viteska
24 Brigade, Mr. Cerkez, who is represented by the
25 gentleman to the left of me?
Page 7620
1 A. As far as I can remember, he had his
2 headquarters in Vitez, but not at Hotel Vitez but at
3 the Vitez cinema.
4 Q. Do you know who the president of the HVO
5 government was in Vitez? If you don't, that's fine,
6 we'll move on.
7 A. No.
8 Q. All right. Let's move to Busovaca. The
9 commander of the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade was
10 commander Dusko Grubesic; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And he reported directly to Colonel Blaskic;
13 correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Who in turn reported directly to General
16 Petkovic in --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel, please,
18 slow down?
19 A. Yes, he did.
20 MR. SAYERS:
21 Q. I apologise for speaking quickly, Major, but
22 I'm trying to get through with this today, if
23 possible.
24 In your diary, on April 5th, you record a
25 meeting with the president of the HVO civilian
Page 7621
1 government, Mr. Zoran Maric. Do you remember that?
2 A. What date?
3 Q. April 5th, I believe. Page 4 of your diary.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In fact, that was a productive meeting, in
6 your view, wasn't it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. "The meeting went very well, with him, beyond
9 all expectations," you've recorded.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you thought that substantial progress had
12 been made in persuading the Croats and the Muslims to
13 make arrangements to live together in the town, didn't
14 you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right. You've given some testimony about
17 your views of the Warsaw Pact military organisation. I
18 won't touch upon that other than to say this: As I
19 understand it, you have an organisation of the army at
20 the corps level, then at the brigade level, and then at
21 the battalion level, and then at the company level; is
22 that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. At the corps level, you have about what,
25 10.000 soldiers?
Page 7622
1 A. All depends on what kind of corps it is.
2 Q. Do you know how many soldiers were under the
3 command of the 3rd Corps in Zenica?
4 A. Maybe 10.000 or 12.000.
5 Q. Ten to twelve thousand.
6 A. I cannot recall exactly. I think it's in
7 that area.
8 Q. Now, do you know how many HVO soldiers there
9 were in the Central Bosnia Operative Zone?
10 A. I cannot recall.
11 Q. It's true, Major, isn't it, that the military
12 organisation of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone was
13 an administrative headquarters with Colonel Blaskic at
14 the top, and then each one of the military formations
15 was organised as essentially a municipality-based
16 brigade?
17 A. Yes, more or less.
18 Q. For example, you would have the Frankopan
19 Brigade in the town of Travnik; correct? Yes?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The Frankopan Brigade ceased to exist in the
22 middle of June 1993 as a result of the Muslims
23 defeating the HVO in that area; isn't that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Another brigade that we've seen is the
Page 7623
1 Bobovac Brigade, that was mentioned on Exhibit 579,
2 based in Vares. Did you know that the -- this is
3 beyond your time in Central Bosnia, but did you know
4 that the Vares brigade ceased to exist as a result of
5 the military defeat in Vares on November the 2nd of
6 1993?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You've identified, in the last page of the
9 exhibits which I've placed before the Trial Chamber and
10 you, a document that was marked as Exhibit Z863, which
11 you were given by a member of the HVO; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. This shows the organisation of the brigades?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You were never given a similar document by
16 the Muslim forces, were you?
17 A. It was not handed over to me but to one of my
18 colleagues, but I kept this.
19 Q. But you were never given a similar
20 organisational document by the Muslim forces, were you?
21 A. ECMM was, I think, but I was only, at that
22 day, handed that document.
23 Q. All right. There's a reference to the
24 Frankopan Brigade and the Travnik Brigade in this
25 document, sir, that was effective as of what, May of
Page 7624
1 1993, May the 14th, I believe?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Those two brigades actually ceased to exist
4 in mid-June, did they not?
5 A. See, I cannot remember when they were.
6 Q. All right. That's fine. Looking further
7 down, the Kotromanic Brigade under the command of
8 Mr. Neven Maric, that was eliminated from Kakanj as a
9 result of a military defeat inflicted upon HVO by the
10 ABiH on June the 13th, 1993, would you agree with that?
11 A. I remember there was fighting in the Kakanj
12 area in that period, yes.
13 Q. As a result, the Kotromanic Brigade ceased to
14 exist, didn't it?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. I think that you've previously stated that
17 the Jure Francetic Brigade in Zenica, which you say is
18 not present any more, and the 2nd Zenica Brigade is not
19 present any more. What you mean by that is that
20 they've been eliminated as a result of a military
21 defeat; right?
22 A. No.
23 Q. No?
24 A. It was a result of this agreement you showed
25 me before, I think.
Page 7625
1 Q. All right. Now, you would agree that
2 training, military training, is crucial to the
3 existence of a disciplined professional army; isn't it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Without that training, frankly, you don't
6 really have soldiers, you have merely a disorganised
7 militia, don't you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And if you take a civilian and give him
10 camouflage clothing, a rifle, and a shoulder patch,
11 with no regular training, you don't really have a
12 soldier, do you?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Are you aware of any training at all in
15 International Law and the Geneva Conventions that was
16 ever given to HVO conscripts in 1992, 1993, or 1994?
17 A. [No audible response]
18 MR. SAYERS: This might be a good time, Your
19 Honour.
20 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn for 20 minutes.
21 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 11.29 a.m.
23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, we are delayed
24 because we've been trying to work out the scheduling
25 programme for the next few weeks. There are some
Page 7626
1 changes because other cases, which we will need to
2 discuss when we -- or just before the adjournment. I
3 gather there are some matters which Mr. Nice wants to
4 raise at that time.
5 I think, inevitably, since you didn't start
6 quite late, you're going to find it difficult to get
7 through by ten to one. Then, of course, there is the
8 cross-examination on behalf of Mr. Cerkez, which is
9 bound to take some time. I think the upshot is that
10 the Major is not going to finish today, I'm afraid, and
11 will have to come back at a time convenient to
12 himself. No doubt the Prosecution can give some
13 thought to that.
14 The upshot is that we have to finish at about
15 five to one. If you would find a convenient time at
16 about a quarter to one, we'll adjourn then.
17 Do not feel, because of what I said
18 yesterday, that you have to talk very quickly. If
19 you'd like to take your time, no doubt everybody would
20 benefit, but we appreciate the efforts that you've made
21 so far.
22 MR. SAYERS: Thank you very much,
23 Mr. President, and my sincerest apologies to the
24 translators and stenographers.
25 Q. Major, you tend to speak a little softly, and
Page 7627
1 I noted that the answer to the last question that I
2 asked you before the break was not actually
3 transcribed.
4 The question was, I believe, just to
5 paraphrase it: Are you aware of any training in
6 International Law or the Geneva Conventions that was
7 given to any HVO conscripts of any kind in 1992, 1993,
8 or 1994, and I believe your answer was, "No." Is that
9 correct?
10 A. That's correct. And I can only speak for
11 1990 -- 1993.
12 Q. Just for the record, I referred to a document
13 dated February the 25th, 1993, and I stated that it had
14 been marked with a Prosecution Exhibit number, Z495.
15 Apparently it has been marked with that number but it
16 is not in evidence yet. I'm told by the registrar that
17 it needs a Defence number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: The document could be
19 numbered D76/1.
20 MR. SAYERS:
21 Q. Proceeding along, Major, in your opinion, the
22 HVO was a well-organised military force with a clearly
23 identifiable chain of command organised into so-called
24 Operative Zones, with its commander in chief as
25 Brigadier Milivoj Petkovic; correct?
Page 7628
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Brigadier Petkovic was in charge of all the
3 Operative Zones; correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In other words, the Operative Zone commanders
6 reported directly to him?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. In order to have an effective, efficient
9 military force, you need to have an absolute adherence
10 to a clearly defined chain of command. You'd agree
11 with that, wouldn't you?
12 A. Yes, I would.
13 Q. In your view the HVO had one, right?
14 A. As we can see, there was a clear chain of
15 command from Petkovic to Blaskic, and from Blaskic to
16 his brigade commanders.
17 Q. It's true, is it not, that Brigadier Petkovic
18 himself attended some high-level meetings of the
19 Busovaca Joint Commission and the joint operative
20 command that succeeded it in Vitez?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the same is true of Colonel Blaskic; from
23 time to time he would attend those meetings?
24 A. Yes, did he.
25 Q. And you've already stated that
Page 7629
1 Colonel Blaskic's second in command, Franjo Nakic, was
2 routinely in attendance at these meetings.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. It's true, is it not, that Mr. Kordic never
5 attended a single one of those meetings?
6 A. No -- yes, that's true. That's true.
7 Q. All right. You would agree that within his
8 Operative Zone in Central Bosnia, Colonel Blaskic had
9 no superior; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Indeed, that was the feeling not only of
12 yourself, that was the judgement, professional military
13 judgement, not only of you but also your colleagues
14 such as Erik Friis-Pedersen, for example; correct?
15 A. Yes. And we're discussing a military or --
16 Q. You would agree that -- I'm sorry.
17 A. He didn't -- he had the command, the military
18 command, and he doesn't have -- in the Central Bosnia,
19 Colonel Blaskic didn't have a military superior.
20 Q. You would agree that, in fact, he was the
21 decision-maker and the man in command and control of
22 his area, wouldn't you?
23 A. Yes, for the military.
24 Q. All right. In fact, in your statement, on
25 page 11, three years ago, you said that Colonel Blaskic
Page 7630
1 was not only in complete control of HVO forces, but
2 also Bosnian Croat authorities, didn't you?
3 A. If I can see a copy of my statement ...
4 Q. Well, let me just read it to you: "This
5 implements, from my point of view as a military career
6 officer" -- and I'm reading from page 3 -- "that
7 Colonel Blaskic was basically in control of all the HVO
8 troops and Bosnian Croat authorities in his area of
9 responsibility, which was Central Bosnia."
10 And you agree with that today, don't you?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Yes.
13 You gave some testimony concerning the
14 so-called HOS. Just one question on that: There was
15 no doubt that those troops were under Colonel Blaskic's
16 command, was there?
17 A. Not on our point of view.
18 Q. Right.
19 A. Because it was a military unit, and Colonel
20 Blaskic was controlling the military units.
21 Q. Right, and that included the HOS?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That was the opinion, once again, of the
24 ECMM; right?
25 A. Yes.
Page 7631
1 Q. And you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. I was going to ask you some
4 questions in connection with the testimony that you
5 gave about the removal of Stjepan Tuka, but you can't
6 remember who told you that, can you?
7 A. Just that it was another ECMM team, but I
8 cannot remember which and who were the individuals that
9 told me that.
10 Q. All right. Now, you gave some testimony to
11 the effect that in your view, the ABiH was somehow a
12 beaten army at the end of April of 1993; is that
13 correct?
14 A. Yes. It seems to me, when I started in
15 Central Bosnia, that BiH were the weak part in the
16 conflict at that time.
17 Q. Let me just read you testimony from a witness
18 who has testified in this case, a British lieutenant
19 colonel by the name of Watters, on July 30th, 1999,
20 page 5857 of the transcript, and I would just like to
21 ask you if you agree with this.
22 "Q Now, on April the 19th, just to
23 summarise, I believe that the Croats
24 were faced with a very vigorous and
25 successful Muslim counter-attack.
Page 7632
1 A I'm sorry, the date?
2 Q April the 19th.
3 A Yes."
4 And then the question was asked: "The Croats
5 found themselves forced into a dangerous defensive
6 position. They were actually facing military defeat.
7 Would you agree with that?" And the answer was "Yes."
8 Would you agree with that?
9 A. I think that this was Mr. -- what's he
10 called -- Watters' opinion. I'm not totally sure that
11 I have the same opinion.
12 Q. All right. Very good.
13 Let me ask you to be shown by the usher, if I
14 may, Exhibit Z720, which is a document dated April the
15 18th, 1993.
16 MR. SAYERS: Could I just ask the registrar
17 to verify that that is Exhibit Z720.
18 Q. It looks like you have only one page there,
19 Major -- two? All right; very good.
20 If you turn to the second page, right after
21 item F, which says, "International media attention
22 should be brought to Zenica/Vitez area," paragraph 4
23 says, "Fighting has stopped, virtually, due to the
24 superiority of the BiH army in the city."
25 The comment goes on to observe that the HVO,
Page 7633
1 slash -- I guess that's "HOS HQ" -- in Zenica has been
2 captured by BiH forces and allegedly has been looted.
3 Was that the informed military judgement of the ECMM
4 military monitors on the 18th of April, 1993?
5 A. Yes, and I can remember that the HVO
6 headquarters in Zenica, they gave over their weapons to
7 BiH. There was no fighting between the BiH and HVO
8 during this --
9 Q. It was just an en masse surrender?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Yes; all right. Now, you were aware that the
12 ABiH had regional headquarters located both to the
13 north and to the south of the town of Vitez in April of
14 1993; is that correct?
15 A. I can remember they had a few. I cannot
16 remember where they were.
17 Q. All right, let's see if I can jog your
18 memory. Isn't it true that the headquarters of the
19 325th Mountain Brigade was located in the town of
20 Kruscica, to the southeast of Vitez?
21 A. It could be. I cannot remember the spot.
22 But if I had mentioned that in one of my reports, I
23 should know.
24 Q. Do you recall that the ABiH armed forces also
25 had battalion headquarters in the villages of Poculica,
Page 7634
1 Preocica, to the northeast of Vitez, and also in Stari
2 Vitez, the old part of the town of Vitez?
3 A. I can remember in the old town of Vitez. I
4 cannot remember the other ones.
5 Q. Wouldn't it be fair to say that the HVO was
6 never able to capture any one of these headquarters at
7 any time while you were present in Central Bosnia, or
8 as far as you're aware, at any time after that?
9 A. I think they would -- they were able to do
10 that, and did.
11 Q. Did they?
12 A. Yes, I think they did.
13 Q. The next -- oh, you gave some testimony about
14 the ABiH not having artillery, in your opinion. Is
15 that correct? Do you remember that?
16 A. They had artillery, but we had no information
17 on any positions in that area.
18 Q. Could I just ask you to take a look at one of
19 the documents in the package that I've given to you
20 dated May the 13th, 1993.
21 A. And who issued the document?
22 Q. The ECMM.
23 A. ECMM?
24 JUDGE MAY: Where will we find it,
25 Mr. Sayers?
Page 7635
1 MR. SAYERS: It should be chronologically
2 arranged, Your Honour. May the 13th, 1993.
3 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
4 MR. SAYERS: It's approximately -- relatively
5 close to the end of the package, actually.
6 Q. In this document that's dated May the 13th,
7 1993 --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- and by the way, that's actually a document
10 you prepared, is it not?
11 A. It is.
12 Q. With Stavros Kinigopoulos?
13 A. Yes, a Greek monitor.
14 Q. Do you know if he is an artillery expert?
15 A. I can remember he was a helicopter pilot, and
16 maybe he was an artillery observer.
17 Q. In item 8C, it's true, is it not, that one
18 122-millimetre howitzer, a D30 model belonging to the
19 BiH, was observed pointed in the direction of Vitez?
20 Correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So the BiH army did have available to it
23 120-millimetre ordnance; isn't that correct?
24 A. Yes, at that time. But when we were
25 discussing April, we didn't have any positions known in
Page 7636
1 April. This is May.
2 Q. None that you knew of anyway; isn't that
3 correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, what's the maximum range of a D30
6 howitzer? Do you know?
7 A. 10 to 15 kilometres; it all depends on which
8 charts you are using.
9 Q. Let me put it to you. Isn't the maximum
10 range of D30J 122-millimetre howitzer 17.300 metres?
11 A. It could be longer.
12 Q. Right. On the subject of Mujahedin, by
13 Mujahedin, you mean Muslim fundamentalist extremists, I
14 take it?
15 A. Yes, from the Middle East.
16 Q. All right. In connection with the kidnapping
17 of commander Zivko Totic, you actually witnessed the
18 scene of that incident, did you not?
19 A. Not just after it had taken place, but I was
20 there later on the same day.
21 Q. Have you seen the videotaped footage of that
22 scene of carnage --
23 A. Yes, Mr. Hayman showed me a videotape showing
24 the incident.
25 Q. All right. My colleagues quite correctly
Page 7637
1 point out to me that we need an exhibit number for the
2 May the 13th document.
3 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: The document will have the
5 number D77/1.
6 MR. SAYERS:
7 Q. Now, you were told by general Hadzihasanovic
8 that he was not able to control these so-called
9 Mujahedins; isn't that correct?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. It's also true that you, yourself, performed
12 an investigation along with your ECMM colleagues as to
13 who was responsible for the assassination of the
14 officers and the civilian --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- on April the 15th? Were you ever able to
17 find out would was responsible for that, sir?
18 A. Not during our investigations. Then we had
19 this letter from the Mujahedins that told us that they
20 were responsible for the kidnapping, and they had five
21 officers plus, I think, two more.
22 Q. All right. When you refer to the letter that
23 was delivered to you, if you just turn to -- I think
24 you --
25 A. I have it in front of me now.
Page 7638
1 Q. You have it; all right?
2 A. I recall the letter.
3 Q. This was a letter that, for the record, has
4 previously been marked as D117/1,21, and it is actually
5 referred to in a document that I would like to
6 distribute right now and have separately marked, which
7 the Prosecution, I think, withdrew.
8 While you're looking at that document, Major,
9 let me just correct one item on the record here. I
10 must have misspoken. The document that I was referring
11 to should be Exhibit D17/1,21 and not D117.
12 Turning your attention to this document,
13 which I would like to have marked as the next Defence
14 exhibit, on page 2, there is a reference to the
15 incident that you just described at about 6.15 on April
16 the 18th, two men arrived in uniform, one with a
17 Palestinian Keffiyeh and handed over the letter that
18 we've just referred to. Is that consonant with your
19 recollection?
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE MAY: Get the exhibit number. Have the
22 Registry got a number for this one?
23 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be
24 marked D78/1.
25 MR. SAYERS:
Page 7639
1 Q. Now, sir, it's true, is it not, that the car
2 that was used by these two Mujahedin was later spotted
3 in the parking lot belonging to the 7th Muslim Brigade,
4 at the same time that the 7th Muslim Brigade was
5 claiming to you that it exercised no ability to control
6 the Mujahedin?
7 A. Yes, that's correct, as far as I can recall.
8 Q. I think that this entire episode is
9 summarised in a document included in the package, dated
10 May the 19th, 1993, and entitled "Special and Final
11 Report, Exchange of Detained Arabian Foreigners and HVO
12 Hostages". That should be three documents from the
13 rear or four documents from the rear of the package,
14 Major.
15 A. Yes, I have it.
16 Q. You also describe the circumstances under
17 which the prisoners were released, in your diary?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You describe in your diary the circumstances
20 of that release as explosive, and apparently there were
21 at least a hundred masked and heavily armed soldiers,
22 probably from the 7th Muslim Brigade, who also had at
23 their disposal a three-barrel, 20-millimetre machine
24 gun, along with anti-tank and anti-aircraft,
25 shoulder-launched missiles, who proceeded to fire their
Page 7640
1 weapons into the air after the police forces had
2 disappeared. That's accurate, is it not?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. And you saw that. You were there personally,
5 weren't you?
6 A. Yes, because at that time I came back from
7 Vitez after I had handed over the four other officers.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. And UNPROFOR were there as well.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 A. And I can remember that they pushed, with one
12 of their tanks, this truck with anti-aircraft.
13 Q. It was a highly charged atmosphere, wouldn't
14 you agree with that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. If someone were to say to you that there were
17 only 12 people there and it was a peaceful exchange,
18 you wouldn't agree with that at all, would you, sir?
19 A. The exchange itself was peaceful, but all the
20 people around it were -- because they were happy
21 because all their Muslim brothers had been released.
22 So as they're doing in the Middle East, they were
23 firing their weapons in the air.
24 Q. Right.
25 A. That was what we could see was a little
Page 7641
1 dangerous or a tense situation.
2 Q. You felt that that was a dangerous situation,
3 an explosive situation, as you put it in your diary;
4 right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: The document dated 19 May,
8 1993 will be marked D79/1.
9 MR. SAYERS:
10 Q. The list of people that's attached to this
11 ECMM report, sir, as the last page, do you see it?
12 A. I don't have it in my -- I don't have the
13 document any more.
14 Q. That list was the list that had actually been
15 provided to you some days before by Colonel Blaskic, on
16 April the 23rd, 1993; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Just for the Trial Chamber's information, the
19 April 23rd, 1993 letter is actually attached to this
20 package of exhibits as well.
21 All right. Sir, it's true that throughout
22 your tour through Central Bosnia you never saw any
23 units or troops of the regular Croatian army at any
24 time, did you?
25 A. Sometimes, specifically in the Travnik area,
Page 7642
1 we saw individuals with "HV" on their badge and not
2 "HVO." That indicated that some Croat soldiers could
3 be in the area, but we only saw individuals. We didn't
4 see units.
5 Q. There's no reference in your diary or in your
6 statement or in your previous 300 pages of testimony in
7 the Blaskic case, as far as you can recall, to any such
8 sightings, is there?
9 A. Not that we have seen units from the HV.
10 Q. Or individuals, for that matter, is there?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. All right. Would it be fair to say that you
13 had an extremely low opinion of the ability and
14 effectiveness of the police forces in Central Bosnia on
15 both sides, both Croat institutions and Muslim
16 institutions?
17 A. Most of the policemen we saw were not
18 policemen before the conflict, so they were not
19 properly trained as policemen. So they were not
20 effective as policemen.
21 Q. Your opinion was that they were
22 insufficiently qualified and incredibly incompetent;
23 isn't that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In other words, in your view, they wouldn't
Page 7643
1 be able to carry out any investigations properly, they
2 didn't have the training to do it; right?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. That's symptomatic about the general
5 breakdown of law and order that we previously
6 discussed; correct?
7 A. It could be, but we thought that all the
8 other regular police forces were in the army now,
9 because there should be trained police officers from
10 before the conflict, but, obviously, there was no one
11 now.
12 Q. All right. As we've seen already from the
13 orders that you have previously been shown, the
14 military police units fell directly under the command
15 of Colonel Blaskic; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Let me turn for a few minutes to the
18 Vance-Owen Plan that we have previously discussed.
19 Canton 10 was the so-called Travnicka canton; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. And you stated that canton 10
22 borders on the Republic of Croatia but so do
23 cantons 1 and 2, which were variously, respectively, a
24 Muslim -- or to be a Muslim-governed canton and a
25 Serb-governed canton; correct?
Page 7644
1 A. I have to see the document. I can't remember
2 all the -- because I was only working in 9 and 10.
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. I cannot remember the others.
5 Q. That's fair enough. I'll just show you
6 Exhibit 2574, which has been previously marked by the
7 Prosecution. What I just said is correct, is it not?
8 A. May I have the question again?
9 Q. Yes. Canton 1 was to be a Muslim-governed
10 canton, and that borders the Republic of Croatia;
11 doesn't it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Canton 2 was to be a Serb-governed canton,
14 and that also borders on the Republic of Croatia;
15 doesn't it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You previously discussed all the
18 municipalities that were included in canton 10, and
19 those municipalities did not include the municipality
20 of Kiseljak, did they?
21 A. The municipality of Kiseljak was belonging to
22 province number 7.
23 Q. Right. Okay.
24 A. And the same with Kresevo.
25 Q. Yes. It's true that one of your "mission
Page 7645
1 briefs," for lack of a better term, was to -- and I'm
2 reading from the first document in the package that I
3 gave you, which was marked Exhibit Z2575,
4 paragraph 8 -- to promote the Vance-Owen Peace Plan by
5 encouraging all parties to collaborate by attending
6 provincial and municipal meetings and by offering
7 guidance on and interpretation of the plan.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. Did you ever do that with the HVO
10 municipal authorities in any of the municipalities that
11 you visited in April or May or June of 1993?
12 A. Normally when we went out to a municipality
13 and we had -- and if we had a meeting with the mayor
14 there, we were discussing this matter with him.
15 Q. All right. You yourself did not have a lot
16 of faith in the Vance-Owen Plan, did you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You viewed it as just another in a series of
19 plans that would eventually be replaced probably by
20 another plan, didn't you?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. In fact, in your view, the Vance-Owen Plan
23 actually was responsible for provoking inter-ethnic
24 tensions rather than solving the problem, wasn't it?
25 A. Yes. That's my own personal view. It was
Page 7646
1 not an ECMM view, of course.
2 Q. You never met with Mr. Kordic to discuss this
3 particular plan, did you?
4 A. I didn't, but would I think that Jean
5 Thebault, the Ambassador, maybe, because he was at that
6 level to discuss with the local politicians.
7 Normally, a team didn't go to Mr. Kordic to
8 discuss policy with him. That was up to our Ambassador
9 to do that.
10 Q. So those discussions would have occurred on
11 the highest level, so to speak?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Political level?
14 A. Political level; right.
15 Q. All right. Let me turn for a few seconds to
16 the Busovaca Joint Commission about which you gave some
17 testimony. You understood that this commission had
18 been formed after fighting had broken out in Busovaca
19 in January of 1993; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you saw all of the orders that were
22 signed, A, setting up the commission, and, B,
23 implementing the imperative of the commission; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And not one of those orders was signed by
Page 7647
1 Mr. Kordic, was it, sir?
2 A. I cannot recall who signed the orders, but I
3 don't think Mr. Kordic signed the orders. I think --
4 Q. Well, if you take a look at the second
5 document that's already been marked as D54/1, we have a
6 number of signatures on the ceasefire agreement of
7 January the 30th, and as you can see, military
8 representatives from the HVO and the ABiH,
9 representatives from the ECMM --
10 A. What document? Can I have it again, because
11 they're not in --
12 Q. Second one in, dated January the 30th.
13 Jeremy Fleming was the representative of the ECMM who
14 actually participated in the establishment of the
15 Busovaca Joint Commission; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Along with Colonel or Lieutenant-Colonel
18 Stewart from the Cheshires; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And representatives of the HVO, the ABiH,
21 UNHCR, and the Red Cross; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. Just so the Trial Chamber has a
24 feel for how this commission developed, when you
25 arrived in Vitez on April the 4th, the Busovaca Joint
Page 7648
1 Commission was something after misnomer, because it was
2 actually sitting in the BritBat compound just outside
3 or to the west of Vitez; isn't that correct?
4 A. Not in the BritBat compound but outside.
5 Q. Right next door to it?
6 A. Next door.
7 Q. Yes. As of April the 22nd, 1993, the
8 so-called Busovaca Joint Commission was renamed the
9 joint operations command; correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And basically --
12 A. JOC.
13 Q. -- four separate commands, if you like, were
14 established. One in Travnik; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. One in Vitez, one in Kiseljak, and one in
17 Vitez -- sorry.
18 A. You mentioned -- you said "Vitez" once.
19 Q. Travnik, Vitez, Kiseljak, and Busovaca. I'm
20 sorry. Correct?
21 A. As far as I can remember, it was sitting in
22 Travnik.
23 Q. The headquarters of the --
24 A. The JOC.
25 Q. Right. The JOC was in Travnik; correct?
Page 7649
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. That's a situation that ceased to exist as of
3 June 13th, 1993, when Travnik was captured by ABiH
4 forces?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Yes. You would agree with me that the
7 Busovaca commission was the most successful and least
8 contentious of all the four local commissions, isn't
9 that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You would also agree, would you not, that
12 both Colonel Blaskic and his deputy, Mr. Nakic, did
13 their best to make the Busovaca Joint Commission work
14 as well as it could?
15 A. I think Mr. Nakic did. I'm not sure that
16 Colonel Blaskic did.
17 Q. Very well. Events preceding the April
18 16th conflict you've described. The first was a
19 flag-raising in Travnik in, I think, April the 8th to
20 the 12th, in that time period, 1993; correct?
21 A. Yes, before Easter.
22 Q. And that flag was actually raised very close
23 to the brigade headquarters of the 7th Muslim Brigade,
24 wasn't it?
25 A. I can't recall, sitting here, where precisely
Page 7650
1 it was raised, but it was raised close to a BiH
2 headquarter.
3 Q. All right. The kidnapping of the four HVO
4 officers, you were actually involved in an
5 investigative commission consisting of representatives
6 of the ECMM, the HVO, and the ABiH, to find out who did
7 it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you never did, did you?
10 A. Find out?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. No, not before the before-mentioned letter.
13 Q. Right. You also described Mr. Merdan's or
14 Colonel Merdan's temporary custody. It's true that you
15 were instructed to get a hold of Colonel Blaskic
16 because he actually was in command of the military
17 police, one of whom had actually been responsible for
18 your detention and Colonel Merdan's as well; is that
19 correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. After awhile, you got in touch with
22 Colonel Blaskic, and would it be fair to say that
23 Colonel Blaskic gave the military police commander an
24 absolute roasting?
25 A. Yes.
Page 7651
1 Q. And he came back tight-lipped and red-faced
2 and immediately released you?
3 A. Yes. And I couldn't see that they were able
4 to handle that case another way.
5 Q. All right. The situation on April the 15th,
6 1993, just south of Busovaca: You were aware, Major,
7 that the ABiH was fully in control of the main supply
8 routes stretching from the village of Kacuni, just a
9 kilometre or two to the south of Busovaca, to
10 Bilalovac; correct?
11 A. I just have to recall in my mind to see the
12 map on my ... yes, they did.
13 Q. And that remained unchanged throughout your
14 tour, didn't it?
15 A. Yes, I think it did.
16 Q. As a result of the main supply routes being
17 cut between Busovaca and Kiseljak, there was very
18 little communication on the HVO side that was feasible
19 between Busovaca and Kiseljak, or between Vitez and
20 Kiseljak, for that matter; wouldn't you agree with
21 that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Why not?
24 A. We were told by the HVO in Kiseljak that it
25 was possible to go from Kiseljak to Vitez following
Page 7652
1 some roads in the mountain.
2 Q. Some back roads?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. Do you recall that the
5 headquarters of the 333rd Mountain Brigade was located
6 in the town of Kacuni?
7 A. I cannot recall which unit, but there was a
8 unit there.
9 Q. All right. Turning to the events, the actual
10 outbreak of fighting, I wonder if I could just point
11 your attention to two combat reports issued by the 3rd
12 Corps in Zenica, one on April the 15th, one on April
13 the 16th, and they are included in the package of
14 materials that you have.
15 All right, sir, the first document is a
16 regular combat report from the command of the 3rd Corps
17 dated April the 15th, 1993, and I would specifically
18 like to turn your attention to page 3.
19 THE REGISTRAR: This exhibit will have the
20 number D80/1.
21 MR. SAYERS:
22 Q. Is it consistent with your understanding that
23 at about 5.30 on the evening of April the 15th, there
24 was an outbreak of fighting in the area of Putis; that
25 the fighting involved small arms and artillery; and
Page 7653
1 there were casualties reported, at least on the ABiH
2 side?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And that's at 5.30 on the night before or the
5 night before April the 16th, 1993, correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. All right.
8 A. It says that HVO were using small arms and
9 artillery.
10 Q. Yes. If you would now turn to the second
11 combat report, on April the 16th, 1993, specifically to
12 page 2, item 3 under the "Lasva Operative Group,"
13 paragraph 2.
14 THE REGISTRAR: This exhibit will have the
15 number D81/1.
16 MR. SAYERS:
17 Q. According to the 3rd Corps command, there
18 were two areas of operations, the first being in the
19 area of Vitez and Kruscica, according to a report by
20 the 325th Mountain Brigade chief of staff, anyway. Do
21 you know who that gentleman was, the chief of staff of
22 the 325th Brigade?
23 A. He was a deputy of the brigade commander. I
24 can't recall his name.
25 Q. That's fine. And the second thing that I
Page 7654
1 want to draw your attention to, if I can, is the
2 comment made by the 3rd Corps command: "The intensity
3 of operations and movement of HVO forces directed
4 towards the forces of the 333rd Mountain Brigade are
5 weak to the point of nonexistence."
6 That was just south of Busovaca; correct,
7 sir?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. Thank you.
10 Now, according to your diary, you drove as
11 fast as you could -- page 6, I'm referring to -- to try
12 to get to Zenica at about 9.30 at night.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And it was dark at that time, wasn't it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You saw tracer bullets everywhere, did you
17 not?
18 A. Yes, we did. In one -- only in one
19 direction.
20 Q. Right. And a tracer, as I understand it,
21 uses phosphorus?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And the phosphorus burns, and that's what
24 makes it visible as it passes through the air?
25 A. Yes. It's easier for the shooter to aim his
Page 7655
1 weapon because he can see the tracers.
2 Q. But the reason that you can see the round is
3 because it actually has phosphorus burning on the rear
4 end of the round; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And when it hits something, it tends to set
7 fire to that item that it hits, because, obviously,
8 you've got burning phosphorus; correct?
9 A. Not necessarily, because it's not burning the
10 whole time; just only in the beginning. But sometimes,
11 if it's very dry, it could happen.
12 Q. When you went to Kiseljak on April the 23rd,
13 it was your opinion that the house fires that you
14 witnessed were caused by incendiary munitions striking
15 those houses, wasn't it?
16 A. I thought that someone had lighted the fire
17 to the houses, because --
18 Q. Pardon?
19 A. We thought that most of the burnt houses had
20 been burned with purpose, and someone had lighted the
21 fire directly at the house. Because if it should be
22 caused by the tracers, there should be a lot of burning
23 grass, and in the surrounding area, as well.
24 Q. Well, did you ever get out of your armoured
25 Mercedes as you were driving past Ahmici at 9.30 at
Page 7656
1 night?
2 A. No, not in Ahmici, but now you are referring
3 to Kiseljak as well.
4 Q. Let's keep our attention focused on Ahmici
5 for just a minute. Did you ever get out of the
6 armoured vehicle that you were driving at 9.30 at
7 night?
8 A. Out of it, no.
9 Q. Did you ever go to Ahmici after April the
10 16th?
11 A. Yes, we did.
12 Q. Let me just read to you, if I may, a passage
13 from the Joint Operations Centre of Vitez Report, daily
14 operational report, April the 23rd, 1993. It says as
15 follows: "It appeared that those burned villages were
16 set on fire mainly by incendiary munitions fired from
17 arti." -- artillery -- "pieces from Kiseljak."
18 Was it your opinion that the fires that you
19 saw in the Kiseljak area were started by incendiary
20 munitions striking the structures?
21 A. Only a minor part of it, I think.
22 Q. That's -- no commentary was made that only a
23 minor part of the house fires that were seen in
24 Kiseljak were caused by being struck by incendiary
25 munitions --
Page 7657
1 A. I haven't seen the report are you referring
2 to.
3 Q. All right. Let's take a look at it. It's
4 April the 23rd, 1993.
5 JUDGE MAY: This is in your bundle, is it,
6 Mr. Sayers?
7 MR. SAYERS: Yes, it is, Your Honour.
8 It's actually April the 24th, 1993; I'm
9 sorry.
10 April the 23rd. I'm sorry. Yeah, it is.
11 THE REGISTRAR: This document, dated 23rd
12 April, 1993, will be marked D82/1.
13 MR. SAYERS:
14 Q. You do agree with me that the ECMM Joint
15 Operations Centre report for that date says that it
16 appeared that "The burned villages were set on fire
17 mainly by incendiary munitions fired from artillery
18 pieces from Kiseljak." Correct?
19 A. What paragraph are you referring to?
20 Q. Paragraph 7 on page 2 of the report.
21 A. "People met"?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Yes. And here they are referring to some of
24 the villages; not all of them.
25 Q. Right. And one of the villages mentioned is
Page 7658
1 Svinjarevo. Isn't it true that in Svinjarevo, many
2 Croat houses had been burned as well? And in fact,
3 that's actually reported on a daily report from
4 Team Z-1 dated April 30th, 1993?
5 A. I can't remember if I mentioned something in
6 my report. I cannot remember this -- if I can see my
7 report, I will be able to --
8 Q. Absolutely.
9 A. -- see if it's true or not.
10 I can remember that I was at -- do I have all
11 those documents in mine?
12 Q. I think you do, but they seem to have gotten
13 out of order somehow. But anyway, I'm showing you a
14 document that's dated April the 30th, 1993. This was
15 actually drafted by you and your colleague,
16 Mr. Friis-Pedersen; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And under the heading for Svinjarevo, it says
19 all Muslim and many Croat houses were burned; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And in fact, just stepping back a little,
22 Major, you record in your diary, right after driving
23 past Ahmici -- and I'm reading from page 7 of your
24 diary, as follows: "The Croats set fire to Muslim
25 houses and villages and began the ethnic cleansing,
Page 7659
1 which was then to be avenged by the Muslims, who did
2 the same thing to the Croats."
3 A. What date, please? Because I don't think you
4 have the same --
5 Q. It's --
6 A. I have the Danish edition, the original.
7 Q. All right. It's just towards the end of the
8 April the 6th to the 18th entry.
9 A. Okay. That's page 5 in mine. That's fine.
10 Q. Rather than me reading out what may or may
11 not be an accurate or an inaccurate translation, could
12 you just read that passage into the -- well, actually,
13 you can't.
14 A. I could do that in Danish, but I don't think
15 it's ...
16 Q. All right. Would you agree, then, that your
17 diary says as follows: "The Croats set fire to Muslim
18 houses and villages and began the ethnic cleansing,
19 which was then to be avenged by the Muslims, who did
20 the same thing to the Croats. Neither side showed any
21 respect for human life. They killed without restraint
22 and butchered the bodies. We lived through things many
23 people will not believe we saw."
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. Now, would you agree that in the time period,
Page 7660
1 April the 15th until approximately the end of the
2 month, there was no fighting, that you ever heard of,
3 in Gornji Vakuf?
4 A. I wasn't in Gornji Vakuf, so I cannot tell
5 you anything about Gornji Vakuf. I cannot remember the
6 reports from that area.
7 Q. Do you remember any reports of any fighting
8 in Bugojno?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Or let me just read out -- Donji Vakuf,
11 Kresevo, Fojnica, Novi Travnik; any fighting in those
12 areas?
13 A. No, not as far as I can recall.
14 Q. Did you ever hear of any fighting breaking
15 out in any of the municipalities that constituted the
16 area designated as canton number 3 under the Vance-Owen
17 Plan, which was to the north of the country, sir?
18 A. North?
19 Q. The Posavina area. You don't remember?
20 A. It was out of my area of responsibility, so I
21 cannot answer you there.
22 Q. Right. You don't remember any reports of
23 fighting breaking out in canton number 8, the adjoining
24 canton to number 10, can you?
25 A. I think it's not fair to ask me questions
Page 7661
1 that I'm not -- I'm not able to answer that.
2 Q. If you don't know, Major, I'll move on.
3 That's fine.
4 You have given testimony to the effect that
5 in your judgement, the military operations in Ahmici
6 were part of a coordinated and planned military
7 operation. But you never saw any evidence of a
8 military buildup in the days before April the 16th, did
9 you?
10 A. No, because at that time, I was not in the
11 Vitez area, because we were investigating the case with
12 the four kidnapped officers. Therefore we used most of
13 our days in the Travnik/Novi Travnik/Bugojno area.
14 Q. And Ahmici is located just about a kilometre
15 or a kilometre and a half from the BritBat base at Nova
16 Bila, isn't it?
17 A. No.
18 Q. No? How far away is it?
19 A. More than one kilometre.
20 Q. Two kilometres, maybe?
21 A. Do we have a map? Then we can be sure.
22 Q. I don't think that there is any dispute about
23 that. You'll agree that it was close?
24 A. It was --
25 Q. The two -- the BritBat compound was close to
Page 7662
1 the village of Ahmici; right?
2 A. Not that close. Not that close.
3 JUDGE MAY: Well, that's a matter which we
4 can resolve on a map.
5 MR. SAYERS: Yes.
6 Q. Did you, yourself, ever speak to any of the
7 people that were involved in the Ahmici hostilities,
8 the fighting in the village?
9 A. Not except for the HVO soldier that stopped
10 us in the checkpoint where we were not allowed to go
11 into Ahmici. After the incident, other ECMM officials
12 made a lot of interviews to the inhabitants -- the
13 former inhabitants from Ahmici. We have a lot of
14 eyewitnesses from what had happened in that area.
15 Q. All right. Were you aware that the ECMM, as
16 a result of those interviews, had actually identified a
17 list, a fairly short list, of people who were allegedly
18 involved in the atrocities that occurred in Ahmici?
19 No? All right.
20 Is it your military judgement that Ahmici was
21 completely undefended militarily?
22 A. We didn't see any BiH activity in that area,
23 and as I mentioned yesterday, I went there a few days
24 before the village was destroyed, and I saw no evidence
25 of any sort of military activity.
Page 7663
1 Q. All right. Let me just read you an extract
2 from a statement made by Mr. Fuad Berbic to the state
3 commission for gathering facts on war crimes.
4 JUDGE MAY: I don't think we're going to be
5 assisted by this. This is the account of another
6 witness. This witness has given the evidence which he
7 has.
8 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Mr. President. I
9 will move smartly on.
10 Q. Would it be fair to say that the fighting
11 that you witnessed in mid-April of 1993, although
12 extremely bitter, was restricted to only a few places
13 actually in the vicinity of Vitez?
14 A. Yes, in the Vitez and the Travnik area.
15 Q. All right. I'd like to ask you a few
16 questions in connection with the way in which the
17 ceasefire agreements were arranged and who participated
18 in the negotiations that ultimately led to the
19 ceasefire both on the military side of things and on
20 the political side of things.
21 First, were you aware that Mr. Izetbegovic
22 and Mr. Boban had issued instruction or concluded
23 agreement on the 18th of April, 1993, one provision of
24 which was that all units were to stop fighting
25 immediately? That's April the 18th, 1993, an agreement
Page 7664
1 apparently reached in Zagreb.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You understood that President Izetbegovic was
4 the president of the Republic of Bosnia and
5 Herzegovina?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And that Mr. Boban was the president of the
8 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, if you did
9 understand that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. I wonder if we might have an
12 exhibit number for that, please.
13 THE REGISTRAR: It will be marked D83/1.
14 MR. SAYERS:
15 Q. Very well. The next order, chronologically,
16 is an order issued by the chief of the headquarters,
17 Brigadier Milivoj Petkovic, and it is issued to,
18 amongst other commands, the Central Bosnia Operative
19 Zone.
20 A. Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be
22 marked D84/1.
23 MR. SAYERS:
24 Q. This order was issued pursuant to the
25 agreement reached between Mr. Boban and Mr. Izetbegovic
Page 7665
1 on April the 18th, which we have just reviewed;
2 correct?
3 A. Yes, and the date is the same day.
4 Q. Yes. Then the next level is the Central
5 Bosnia operative command -- Operative Zone, rather,
6 command, and the order for ceasefire was issued by
7 Colonel Blaskic on April the 20th, 1993; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That was pursuant to orders received from
10 Colonel Blaskic's superior officer, Brigadier Petkovic;
11 am I correct?
12 A. Yes. Its dated two days after.
13 Q. Yes.
14 MR. SAYERS: I wonder if we could have an
15 exhibit number for that, please.
16 THE REGISTRAR: It will be marked D85/1.
17 MR. SAYERS:
18 Q. As of April the 20th, 1993, therefore, the
19 competent forces had been ordered to cease hostilities;
20 correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And a formal ceasefire agreement then had to
23 be worked out. I would like to turn your attention to
24 the next document dated April the 20th, 1993. This has
25 already been marked as Exhibit D24/1.
Page 7666
1 This agreement was signed by the two military
2 commanders in chief, Brigadier Petkovic for one side on
3 the HVO, and General Halilovic for the ABiH on the
4 other side; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Supervised and countersigned by General
7 Philippe Morillon for the United Nations, and your
8 superior, Jean-Pierre Thebault, for the ECMM?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. If I am correct, the next document,
11 chronologically, is a formal agreement dated April
12 the 25th, 1993, signed by Mr. Boban and
13 Mr. Izetbegovic, previously marked D27/1.
14 MR. SAYERS: That needs to be shown to the
15 witness, D27/1.
16 A. I don't have it here.
17 MR. SAYERS:
18 Q. I believe that's a -- I'm responsible for,
19 that and I apologise, Major, but we have an extra copy
20 for you if you need it.
21 You will agree, sir, that there's an
22 agreement reached between Mr. Izetbegovic and Mr. Boban
23 on the 25th of April, 1993, and as part of that
24 agreement, the last page includes a document in
25 memorialising agreements relating to the command
Page 7667
1 structure for the BiH army and the HVO; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You can see from paragraph 1 of that
4 agreement that the BiH army and the HVO would retain
5 their separate identities and command structures;
6 correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that the two forces were directed to form
9 a joint command, the two commanders of which would be
10 General Halilovic and General Petkovic?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So it would be fair to say then that you had
13 the political authorities of the republic or the ABiH
14 and the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO
15 negotiating on the one hand, and the military
16 commanders also reaching agreements and signing them on
17 the other; correct?
18 A. Yes. Also to this agreement, the joint
19 operation centre was manned in Novi Travnik.
20 Q. Do you mean Travnik or Novi Travnik?
21 A. Travnik.
22 Q. Travnik. Yes. All right.
23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, if you're moving on
24 to another topic, that may be a convenient time to
25 adjourn.
Page 7668
1 MR. SAYERS: Yes, Your Honour. Just so the
2 Trial Chamber knows, I would anticipate -- I think, if
3 I may say, I made pretty good progress with this
4 witness, and I would not think that I would be more
5 than another 45 minutes with him.
6 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Mr. Kovacic?
7 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honours, it is now
8 difficult to tell, because you understand my colleague
9 took some questions which I have. I was trying to see,
10 but I guess that I could be finished -- I don't know --
11 in one hour, a little bit more perhaps.
12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. So the effect of it is that
13 there are two hours of testimony remaining.
14 Major, I'm sorry we have not been able to
15 conclude your evidence. We shall have to ask you to
16 come back to do so. As I said, don't speak to anybody
17 about your evidence, but, of course, you can speak to
18 the Prosecution about finding a convenient time in the
19 next two months, if that's possible, for you to come
20 back.
21 A. Could be. And maybe next week if it's --
22 JUDGE MAY: Could you be here next week? I
23 was going on to deal with the arrangements for next
24 week, so I might as well say what they are.
25 The difficulty about next week is that we're
Page 7669
1 not going to be sitting on Monday. We've got another
2 case which we've got to do. But we will be sitting on
3 Tuesday afternoon, subject to finishing the other
4 case. There is another matter. But I would hope that
5 we could fit two hours in on Tuesday afternoon, without
6 guaranteeing it. The alternative, we will be sitting
7 on Wednesday and Thursday afternoons.
8 Now, perhaps you can discuss with the
9 Prosecution as to what the most convenient time for you
10 is. If that's not convenient, then we can find some
11 other time.
12 But as far as you're concerned, there's no
13 reason to detain the witness, is there? No one's got
14 anything for him?
15 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MAY: As I say, could you, please, come
17 back. If you'd like to discuss these matters with the
18 Prosecution, we'll find a convenient moment. It's
19 possible we might be able to finish you on Tuesday or
20 Wednesday. Thank you very much. If you'd like to go
21 now, and we'll see you again.
22 A. Thank you, Your Honour.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, as I was saying, the
25 arrangements for the next two weeks are not wholly
Page 7670
1 satisfactory. That is because the Trial Chamber has to
2 attend to other matters, and I shall be sitting in the
3 morning in another case in another Trial Chamber. On
4 Monday we have to deal with another case in the
5 afternoon in this Trial Chamber, possibly going into
6 Tuesday, but we would hope to do something that
7 afternoon, but we can't guarantee that. So Wednesday
8 and Thursday in the afternoon we'll certainly be
9 sitting.
10 The following week, the 4th to the 8th of
11 October, we shall be sitting on two days only. One day
12 has had to be removed because the other members of the
13 Trial Chamber are involved in another case that day.
14 The Trial Chamber will sit on Monday
15 afternoon and Wednesday afternoon, but we can't sit on
16 the Tuesday afternoon. I hope that's of assistance.
17 Before I finish, let me say this. It would
18 be helpful if the Registry could let us have copies of
19 the documents produced in cross-examination to this
20 witness.
21 Mr. Sayers, what I have in mind is we have
22 your bundle, but, of course, the documents are
23 gradually being produced, and as they are produced,
24 they then become exhibits. At the moment, the bundle
25 is not an exhibit. It's better to do it as you produce
Page 7671
1 it, and in that way we'll keep track.
2 But I would be grateful if the Registry could
3 let us have copies as soon as possible, please. Thank
4 you. There's no need to include the war diary or any
5 other bulky documents, just the single pages.
6 Yes. We've got five minutes.
7 MR. NICE: Only a couple of things. There
8 are some outstanding issues which we all generally put
9 back for them to be used as filler arguments, if we
10 ever run out of witnesses. Of course, with -- for
11 example, a week with two half days, not consecutive,
12 there's quite a chance we will not be able to find
13 witnesses to fill it, for example, that week.
14 But in relation to outstanding issues,
15 there's just one topic I want to be -- one matter I
16 want to be quite sure of. We all remember that at the
17 beginning, the Chamber made it clear that, save in
18 exceptional circumstances and on application, disputes
19 weren't to be resolved by written motions but were to
20 be resolved in court.
21 The Chamber will recall that in relation to
22 the dead and dying topic, the matter has been opened
23 and slightly argued, and a skeleton argument was lodged
24 by us and there's now been a skeleton argument lodged
25 by the defendants, but as I understand it -- and I
Page 7672
1 don't think there's any doubt about this but I just
2 wanted to be sure -- the matter is still for argument
3 at some future date, because we are proceeding on the
4 basis of oral argument and not on the basis of written
5 submissions. It may be --
6 JUDGE MAY: That is correct.
7 MR. NICE: Good. I'm grateful for that.
8 Thank you.
9 There's also been an application -- no, let
10 me stick with the dead and dying topic. There's no
11 particular urgency for early resolution of that as an
12 issue. I hope you'll trust us to plan witnesses and to
13 cooperate with the Defence in finding a suitable target
14 time, and then we'll perhaps propose that target time
15 to use as a time when we might argue that particular
16 issue.
17 But there's been another issue raised in
18 relation to Ribicic, who is the constitutional expert
19 served in substitution from Pine [phoen], from another
20 witness who gave evidence in Blaskic, and there's been
21 a long history in organising a substitute.
22 A skeleton argument has been severed, and
23 again I'm working on the basis that this is for
24 ultimate resolution by oral argument in court, and I'm
25 not going to necessarily serve a skeleton argument. I
Page 7673
1 will, if everybody wants me to, but once we go down the
2 line of serving always skeleton arguments, we are back
3 to the position of effectively having a paper practice,
4 which is what the Chamber didn't want.
5 It has seemed to me in the past that there
6 are some arguments which are assisted by a skeleton
7 argument served either the night before or at court, to
8 reflect the argument that's going to be deployed, and
9 there are some much shorter matters where skeletons are
10 not necessary and may just simply clutter up the
11 Chamber's no doubt already overloaded desks.
12 So in relation to Ribicic, there's been a
13 skeleton argument served. That matter should be argued
14 sooner rather than later, although I'm very loathe to
15 lose any witness time next week, because we've got one
16 witness already waiting over the weekend, a short
17 witness. Rather than send him back, the decision was
18 made to keep him over the weekend. We had to send
19 another witness back this week, and we've also got the
20 outstanding witness whose evidence may be capable of
21 being taken next week as well. So I'd rather not deal
22 with that next week, unless a gap appears.
23 But that's it really. If the Chamber wants
24 us to serve a skeleton in this case, we will;
25 otherwise, we can argue the matter. It's a fairly
Page 7674
1 straightforward matter, in due course.
2 JUDGE MAY: No, we don't want to start.
3 At some stage we'd better have -- I don't
4 think we have copies of the various statements which
5 are in issue, and something of what Ribicic is going to
6 say, or it's proposed that he should say.
7 MR. NICE: Of course.
8 I record that the defendants are concerned
9 about the notice they get of particular witnesses. As
10 I've explained to them -- and I hope this explanation
11 will be accepted by the Court -- we have, of course,
12 gone a great deal further than simply to provide
13 witnesses on a rolling two-week basis, because we've
14 provided, so far as we can, a complete schedule of
15 witnesses for a couple of months, or more. What we do
16 is we try and stick to that list, so that that gives my
17 friends an opportunity to plan generally. But of
18 course, witnesses regularly change their commitments;
19 and as the Court timetable itself changes, or as
20 witnesses consume more or less time than forecast, it
21 simply becomes impossible to call witnesses in that
22 order, and we have to do our best. I'm notifying the
23 Defence, at the earliest opportunity, of every change
24 that we make in our planning.
25 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Unless there are any
Page 7675
1 other matters, Tuesday, at a time to be notified -- at
2 the moment, 2.30 -- but it may be that we shan't be
3 able to sit that afternoon. We will notify you as
4 early as we possibly can. Thank you.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
6 12.55 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
7 the 28th day of September, 1999, at
8 2.30 p.m.
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