Page 9455
1 Thursday, 4th November, 1999
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 [The witness entered court]
6 WITNESS: WITNESS T [resumed]:
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosector versus Dario
9 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.
10 JUDGE MAY: It should be noted for the
11 transcript that Judge Robinson is back with us today;
12 however, he will have to be absent for some time next
13 week.
14 MR. NICE: Before I move on in accordance
15 with the summary, there were some photographs which
16 weren't available yesterday but are available today to
17 help. May they be distributed as a group of four black
18 and white photocopies for the Bench, and may the
19 originals in due course go onto the ELMO.
20 And if the usher would take from me a plan
21 that I've marked. And I hope nobody would object to
22 it. It is a general indication. And lay the bit with
23 the red markings on the ELMO so that it can be seen. A
24 little bit further so that we can get the other one in
25 as well. Thank you very much.
Page 9456
1 Examined by Mr. Nice:
2 Q. May the witness, please, have the colour
3 photographs in sequence. Would you look at the first
4 one. Put it on the ELMO, perhaps, so that everyone can
5 see.
6 Does that show the road leading up to the --
7 I've forgotten the name -- the villa, which was the
8 headquarters?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And if we take the photograph off and look at
11 what I've marked. Just take the photograph off,
12 please. I've marked as "1" in red -- you can't see it
13 now. Yes, we can. There it is. Marked as "1", a
14 place. Is it consistent with a view from that place
15 looking up towards the villa?
16 A. No. This is the villa. You can see part of
17 the villa here [indicates]. And as for the view from
18 the villa vis-a-vis --
19 Q. I am going to stop you. If you look at the
20 position marked number "1" on the plan. Perhaps the
21 usher would just point that out to you. Where I've
22 marked a number "1," is the photograph consistent with
23 having been taken from there, please?
24 Your Honour, it wasn't possible to go through
25 the photographs with this witness yesterday. They
Page 9457
1 weren't yet developed.
2 Can we --
3 A. That's this part over here [indicates], the
4 villa is here. It's marked over here.
5 Q. The next photograph --
6 A. So it --
7 Q. Can we see here the villa with a balcony in
8 front of it, and is that the view that you would get if
9 standing in the position, roughly standing in the
10 position marked "2," where the usher will point his
11 finger on the plan? Number "2" is the view there.
12 Roughly, what you would get from number "2" looking up
13 to the villa?
14 A. The villa is above number "2," that is to say
15 above this road.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 A. Right here [indicates].
18 Q. The next photograph number. Does this, and
19 the following photograph -- and they may be laid side
20 by side, I think, so that we can see them both together
21 on the ELMO -- does this show a view down towards the
22 three that we can see fish ponds used for the
23 cultivation of salmon?
24 A. [Indicates] The photograph over here was
25 taken from here, from this road. This is the fish
Page 9458
1 pond, part of it. And up here are the buildings that
2 were built subsequently, the rest homes.
3 Q. Thank you very much. I can return now to the
4 summary. Thank you very much to the usher.
5 Witness T, this morning we must move at a
6 faster speed because of the requirements of other
7 witnesses and so on. So I am going to ask you a number
8 of questions which I hope you won't think it rude of
9 me. I would like you to answer, if you can, simply yes
10 or no, and then we'll move on that much more quickly.
11 I am at paragraph 68. At about the -- in the
12 summer of 1992, did you notice any soldiers coming from
13 outside Busovaca? Just yes or no. And if the answer
14 is yes --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- what did their insignia show them to be?
17 What did their insignia show them to have come from?
18 A. They did not wear any insignia, but their
19 accents showed that they came from Herzegovina, the way
20 they pronounced words.
21 Q. Did you see any other insignia at that stage
22 indicating people coming from outside
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina?
24 A. No. [Realtime transcript read in error
25 "Yes"].
Page 9459
1 Q. Yes? Well, if it was yes, where from?
2 A. My assumption is that they were from
3 Herzegovina. That's Grude, Siroki Brijeg, Mostar and
4 the like.
5 Q. I want to turn now, first of all, to
6 something that you can deal with very briefly. In
7 October was there a conflict between the Muslims and
8 the Croats in Novi Travnik, and by November of 1992 had
9 the situation in Busovaca got worse, with looting and
10 bombing of Muslim shops and with the HVO placing
11 restrictions on the movements of Muslims?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Paragraph 71. On or about the 20th of
14 January 1993, had you gone for coffee with a man called
15 Mirsad Delija?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. On your return, did you notice something of
18 the movements of a particular motor car? If so, tell
19 us the colour and what you saw of its licence plate.
20 A. The vehicle was a white Golf and it had an
21 HVO licence plate without any numbers, and there was a
22 chequerboard sign.
23 Q. What did this vehicle do?
24 A. As we were moving from town towards the
25 houses, we were stopped on two occasions from the
Page 9460
1 direction of Ravne. At certain moments the lights
2 would change; that is to say that they would light the
3 road in different ways, to a greater or to a lesser
4 extent, and they would pass by us.
5 Q. How many times did the vehicle pass you by?
6 A. Twice.
7 Q. When you got to your house, did you invite
8 Mirsad Delija to join you, but did he in fact go to his
9 mother's house, his mother being alone?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. At some time, perhaps 25 minutes later, did
12 you hear firing and did you hear Mirsad's sister
13 Zumetra screaming for help, in consequence of which did
14 you go to Mirsad's house and find him on the ground,
15 having been shot several times? Was he then taken to
16 Zenica dying on the way?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Just, please, yes or no to this question:
19 Did you discuss this issue with Mirsad's brother Arif
20 Delija?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Just yes or no: Did he tell you what had
23 happened earlier that day?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. From what he told you, had he, Arif Delija,
Page 9461
1 been personally present at the events that he was
2 describing to you? Just yes or no.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Maybe my question needs further
5 clarification. I don't want to know the detail of what
6 Delija told you, but according to what he said, had he
7 been present with his brother earlier that day?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And was he, Arif Delija, then able to tell
10 you what his brother Mirsad had been doing that day?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Why not, if he had been present with him?
13 A. On that day, he was not with his brother
14 Mirsad. He was with his other brother, Miralem
15 Delija.
16 Q. And therefore what was the source of your
17 information about what had happened to Mirsad?
18 A. From his brother Arif Delija, actually Mirsad
19 had been killed in Busovaca in '92, '93, in January.
20 Arif Delija belonged to the Territorial Defence in the
21 local commune of Kacuni, so at that point in time, they
22 had not been together.
23 Q. So for the duration -- as you understood it,
24 for the totality of this day, who had been with
25 Mirsad? Was it Miralem, or was it Arif, or was it both
Page 9462
1 of them?
2 A. On that day it was I, personally, who was
3 with Mirsad.
4 Q. Yes, but earlier in the day, who had been
5 with Mirsad?
6 A. None of his brothers.
7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, you've been asking
8 about this for some time; I wonder if there is any
9 point in pursuing it.
10 MR. NICE: It's obviously a very important
11 piece of evidence --
12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, but --
13 MR. NICE: -- and it would be, of course, one
14 of a number of pieces of evidence going to the overall
15 issue, which we would invite you in due course to
16 consider collectively, but Your Honour sees the
17 difficulties that I presently encounter.
18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
19 MR. NICE: May I ask one question which I
20 hope won't, as it were, go to the content, but will
21 just give me a chance to establish the route of
22 information; and then, if it's not satisfactory, I'll
23 move on.
24 Q. I want you, please, Witness T, to listen
25 quite carefully to this question, and just to answer it
Page 9463
1 in the precise way I invite you to do so, because it's
2 to do with various rules we have in these courts.
3 Don't tell us what was said to have happened at a
4 particular place, for example a checkpoint, earlier in
5 the day, but can you tell us the route by which you
6 learnt the information? By that I mean, if you can
7 explain that it was Mr. X who told Mr. Y, who then told
8 you, or if it was simply Mr. X who told you. That's
9 all I want to know: the route by which the information
10 came to you.
11 First of all, do you understand my question?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Then can you tell me, please, or tell the
14 Court, please, the route by which you learnt
15 information of what happened at a particular
16 checkpoint?
17 A. I personally was told about this by Arif
18 Delija in September 1993.
19 Q. And Arif Delija had learnt it how?
20 A. From his brother Miralem.
21 Q. Is either of those brothers still alive?
22 A. No, not a single one of them.
23 Q. All right.
24 MR. NICE: It seems it does come from one
25 brother via another. In light of the death of both of
Page 9464
1 those intervening witnesses, it is the only source of
2 information available to us. We have already heard
3 quite a lot of evidence surrounding this event; there
4 may be further evidence confirmatory of the account
5 given. In particular, if the Court looks at paragraph
6 75 and at what is said there in the second line, there
7 is a named witness there who will be or may be coming
8 to help us, and I'd ask the Court to admit the evidence
9 on the usual basis that its weight can be considered at
10 a later stage. To exclude it now would be to deny
11 forever the chance of it being part of the overall
12 evidential picture.
13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Naumovski.
14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I do
15 apologise. I was waiting for the end of the
16 interpretation.
17 I listened to all of this very carefully
18 because I was afraid that the witness would be led to
19 an answer, but I think it is quite clear now that it is
20 double hearsay at the least. The Defence has no
21 opportunity of checking this out from the person from
22 which this witness heard about what had happened at
23 this checkpoint, so our objection is that this is at
24 least double hearsay.
25 JUDGE MAY: We'll consider it.
Page 9465
1 [Trial Chamber deliberates]
2 JUDGE MAY: We will admit this evidence. We
3 notice the criticisms which are made of it. The
4 weight, of course, is something which we will have to
5 determine. By itself, it would not be sufficient to
6 draw any inference, probably.
7 MR. NICE: Thank you.
8 Q. Witness T, will you tell us, please, what you
9 learnt from the other two men, the brothers, about what
10 had happened earlier that day at a certain checkpoint?
11 A. Miralem Delija, who was at the Kacuni
12 checkpoint then -- I mean, they stopped vehicles that
13 were coming back from Kiseljak to Busovaca for the
14 purpose of identification, in order to identify persons
15 and passengers. Among others in these vehicles was
16 Kordic. Then there was also Bozo Rajic, and there was
17 Kostroman, a professor of chemistry from Vitez; in
18 fact, the entire delegation of the HDZ which had had a
19 meeting in Kiseljak.
20 Miralem just wanted to record the fact that
21 they had passed, and he wanted to see their IDs, and
22 that was the duty of this checkpoint, and then he
23 wanted to let them go. However, since they knew each
24 other personally, Dario Kordic and Miralem Delija,
25 Kordic insulted and humiliated both the checkpoint and
Page 9466
1 the insignia that he wore and himself personally.
2 He thought -- I mean Miralem thought that
3 this was not right. With the other men there, he
4 disarmed his escorts and the other men from the
5 delegation and took them in the direction of the
6 silos.
7 About 30 or 40 minutes later, they were all
8 released from the silos, with their weapons and with
9 their vehicles, at the intervention and request of
10 Husein Hadzimejlic and others who were then in command
11 in the Territorial Defence, who insisted that they
12 should be released, and in fact they were released.
13 As they were leaving the checkpoint, because
14 again this same delegation went by the same checkpoint,
15 Dario Kordic said to Miralem Delija, in passing, that
16 he would remember this well.
17 Q. Did Miralem and Mirsad live in the same house
18 or in different houses?
19 A. They lived in different houses.
20 Q. How long after the release of these men, as
21 you understood it, was Mirsad killed at his house?
22 A. After leaving the checkpoint and after Dario
23 Kordic's remark, no more than 45 minutes went by.
24 Q. I am now going to turn to questions that I
25 think you will be able to deal with by yes/no answers.
Page 9467
1 And I will be assisted if my friends opposite read a
2 paragraph or so ahead and indicate when they want me to
3 do otherwise.
4 Is it right that the conflict between Muslims
5 and Croats in Busovaca started on the 26th of January?
6 A. Yes, but that was the open conflict. And by
7 that I mean an armed conflict.
8 Q. On the morning of the 26th and 27th, starting
9 at about 5.15, did the HVO go through Busovaca, both
10 disarming and capturing Muslims, and was a man called
11 Floro Glavocevic using a loudspeaker, instructing
12 Muslims to surrender and turn over their arms, saying
13 that HVO would guarantee their safety?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 A. (redacted)
22 Q. (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 Was the commander of the local police, Ante
25 Sliskovic, the commander of the military police, Vlado
Page 9468
1 Cosic, and were you in fact not interrogated but taken
2 to Kaonik Camp?
3 A. The commander of the civilian police was
4 Kristo and the commander of the military police was
5 Vlado Cosic. I was not interrogated. I was taken to
6 the camp in Kaonik.
7 Q. Paragraph 81 --
8 A. With everybody else.
9 Q. First, were you held in a hangar, some 10
10 metres by 60 metres, where your estimate is that there
11 were some 380 prisoners and where you were detained for
12 some three days?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Paragraph 83. Did the HVO come to the
15 hangar, read off lists of names of those to be
16 interrogated on the grounds that they were alleged to
17 have formed an Islamic municipality, and were others
18 alleged to be extremist fundamentalists or commanders
19 of Mujahedin units?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you hear of others being used as human
22 shields?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were you aware of Muslim prisoners being
25 taken, tied by a rope with about one metre between each
Page 9469
1 man, to villages, where they would be sent in ahead of
2 the HVO, who would come behind, equipped with weapons
3 and loudspeakers, enforcing the surrender of local
4 Muslims?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were you aware of that clearance of villages
7 happening at Skradno, Loncari, Strane and Rovna?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 87. Between the 29th
10 and 30th of January, or thereabouts, were new cells
11 made and were you taken from the hangar and placed in
12 those cells, each being some three by four metres in
13 size and containing some 20 men?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You were not beaten, but one of your brothers
16 was. Please don't name him.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Were you used to dig trenches at different
19 locations, and in particular at Donja Solakovici, Kula
20 and Skradno?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The guards included a neighbour, whom you've
23 named, but I won't identify. Did the guards inspire
24 some fear in you, wearing paint on their faces and
25 sometimes wearing black uniforms with swastikas on
Page 9470
1 them?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. 93. In the course of trench-digging, were
4 two men, to your knowledge, killed: one, Nermin
5 Elezovic, who went out -- paragraph 94 -- to the
6 general area of Kula, where, under the direction of a
7 former schoolmate, whom you've named, was that man,
8 Elezovic, sent to an area of Donji Solakovici, where he
9 was killed in a Croat house?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Your Honour, paragraphs 95 and 96 come in the
12 source of information from others. I'm not going to
13 pursue it in the setting of this case.
14 97. Was another prisoner, Sehovic, killed in
15 the course of trench-digging that same night?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Yes. Part of 97, really, is subject of a
18 separate paragraph, but I'll deal with it. In the
19 course of your time at Kaonik, did you see Sliskovic
20 there at the time when prisoners were exchanged?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Was there a man named Cakara, who, as you
23 understood it, left the camp, never to be seen alive
24 again?
25 A. Yes.
Page 9471
1 Q. At the eventual exchange of prisoners, to
2 your knowledge, did the defendant Kordic play any role?
3 A. I can say that he must have known of
4 everything that was going on in the area.
5 Q. Paragraph 101. Was there one particular
6 Muslim family, not necessarily now to be named, who was
7 well-known to Kordic or to his family?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was that particular Muslim family the subject
10 of different and preferential treatment throughout the
11 conflict?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did they never lose their property nor,
14 indeed, their jobs?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Paragraph 104. On the exchange organised by
17 the Red Cross, did you elect to return to Busovaca, and
18 between the 25th of February and the 1st of April of
19 1993 was there an effective ceasefire between Croats
20 and Muslims, and in the course of that ceasefire were
21 Muslim -- or perhaps Muslim householders given a
22 document signed by Kordic and Sliskovic which stated
23 that non-Croats were under HVO protection in respect of
24 property and possessions?
25 A. Yes.
Page 9472
1 Q. The Court already has the document 861, I
2 think. Yes, it's 861 and 861,1. Those can be shown
3 briefly to the witness.
4 JUDGE MAY: What we don't have -- or I don't
5 appear to have a translation.
6 MR. NICE: Coming up right now. It will be
7 861,1(a). If the English version translation can be
8 placed on the ELMO, please. Well, perhaps not, because
9 it identifies someone, but not this defendant.
10 Q. Does the body of the statement read as
11 translated into English? It's dated the 1st of May and
12 it says:
13 "Pursuant to demonstrated need, after finding
14 that certain members of the Busovaca HVO units whose
15 residential buildings had been destroyed in combat
16 operations in the area of Busovaca municipality were
17 trying to solve their existential problems by force,
18 and with the aim of preventing such occurrences and
19 protecting the safety of persons and property for all
20 citizens, regardless of their political, religious and
21 national affiliation, I hereby issue --" then there is
22 the name of a resident, "-- of Busovaca the following
23 certificate whereby it is forbidden to Busovaca HVO
24 members to harass the above-named person and members of
25 his family, threaten the safety of their person and
Page 9473
1 property and take any wilful actions which would result
2 in a threat to the safety of their person and
3 property. The strictest measures envisaged by law
4 shall be taken against the perpetrators."
5 And the signature is not as I forecast, but
6 the signatures are Grubesic, Maric and Kordic.
7 Is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What happened to your personal version of
10 such a certificate?
11 A. My copy, in fact the original, was torn up at
12 a doorstep -- at my doorstep in Busovaca by masked,
13 armed persons who were in the habit of coming on a
14 daily basis to loot, taking money and gold, under the
15 pretence that for them such certificates meant nothing.
16 Q. The version you produced, which has a
17 neighbour's name on it, is similar to the copy that you
18 have for yourself?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. May this Exhibit please be under seal.
21 Paragraph 108. Did, in your judgement, the
22 mistreatment of Muslims continue between March and
23 August of 1993?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Paragraph 111. Was a group of some 160
Page 9474
1 Muslims formed who were compelled to dig trenches in
2 groups, the groups themselves being rotated in and out
3 of trench-digging jobs?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were you used to dig trenches around Loncari?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you see some two Muslims killed in the
8 course of trench-digging work?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Paragraph 109. Were you also used, between
11 March and September, as a human shield at Strane, Kula
12 and Komari? And Komari?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you leave Busovaca late 1993, eventually
15 going in the direction of Zenica, not returning to
16 Busovaca since?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Have you produced to the Prosecution a
19 wartime newspaper, or many pages from a wartime
20 newspaper?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you actually have the original with you
23 this morning, or is it still back at the hotel room?
24 A. I have it on me.
25 MR. NICE: Your Honour, what I've done here,
Page 9475
1 in order to avoid burdening the Court with unnecessary
2 paperwork, is I have had copied all of the newspaper
3 for the Defence, and I've distributed it to them last
4 night. It contains a number of articles, but locked
5 within the articles are three orders and one
6 photograph, and it's the orders and photograph that I
7 wish to produce. I can do it swiftly, save for the
8 fact that by my oversight, there is no official
9 translation of the one order I may need to look at in
10 detail.
11 The Court should have, I hope, a small clutch
12 of four documents that looks like this, an enlarged
13 newspaper extract; and if the Court has those, from
14 this newspaper --
15 JUDGE MAY: Well, we haven't. We've merely
16 got a photograph.
17 MR. NICE: I'm sorry; I don't know what's
18 gone wrong, then, on that. The Defence were provided
19 with them yesterday, and there's obviously something
20 gone wrong with our distribution.
21 No, those are the original documents as
22 tendered.
23 I see what's happened. I see what's
24 happened. Can I make available to the usher for laying
25 on the ELMO, please, a clutch of four documents which
Page 9476
1 will be copied at the break and made available to the
2 Court as already to the Defence. And if we look at
3 them in the order in which they turn up, if the usher
4 would be so good.
5 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
6 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
7 with your permission, a comment on the documents which
8 the Prosecutor is trying to tender. We received a copy
9 of the newspapers which the witness has brought along
10 last night. These are newspapers from July of 1993,
11 and that newspaper was distributed only by the Muslim
12 side. That is, that was a Muslim media outlet, very
13 hostile towards the Croats, and that can be gleaned
14 just by the perusal of the newspaper, where, in many
15 places, instead of "Croats," the Croats are labelled as
16 "Ustashas."
17 JUDGE MAY: We follow that. This is a
18 comment about the weight.
19 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] This was just
20 a preliminary remark. Our objection is that we are not
21 opposed to the introduction of the document regarding
22 the establishment of Herceg-Bosna; we know about this
23 document. But the document labelled as -- marked 248,2
24 is something we have not seen before, and we have
25 grounds for doubting its veracity and authenticity.
Page 9477
1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] What
2 document are you speaking about? What is this really
3 about, Mr. Naumovski?
4 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] The copy is
5 marked Z248,2. This is what we received from the
6 Prosecution last night. And I would like to point out
7 to the Trial Chamber the last sentence, and I have
8 never seen anything like that in any document ever
9 produced by the Croatian side, which actually is the
10 grounds for my questioning its authenticity.
11 It would seem, on the basis of this document,
12 that the command staff of the 1st Battalion had ordered
13 that somebody be executed should they oppose or resist
14 the carrying out of this order. And also there was
15 another document introduced by the Prosecutor earlier,
16 that was Z62, which obviously is a copy of one of the
17 newspapers from the same bundle.
18 As Defence counsel for Mr. Kordic, I can say
19 that neither Mr. Kordic nor we as a team have any
20 knowledge of this source, and given the source, this
21 newspaper, we unfortunately have to question its
22 veracity.
23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, it's difficult to deal
24 with these matters without a translation.
25 MR. NICE: Yes, and the document only came
Page 9478
1 yesterday, and --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the counsel,
3 please.
4 MR. NICE: Sorry.
5 It's difficult to deal, indeed, without
6 translation. The documents only came yesterday, and
7 the one document that I should have given absolute
8 priority to translation, I failed to do, and all I've
9 got is an on-sight translation. Can I explain,
10 however, what the position is.
11 There are three orders that are produced in
12 the newspaper. Two of them have already been produced
13 in either similar or identical formats already, and
14 that would tend to show the reliability of the
15 newspaper, at least in respect of those orders.
16 The third order is not one that we have
17 sourced from anywhere else. This is the best version,
18 as it were, that we have of this document, true or
19 false. We would invite it to be adduced now, weight
20 for later. I'm sorry, "weight"; I mean the weight of
21 the evidence obviously coming later.
22 JUDGE MAY: Can we find out where the witness
23 got the newspaper from, and let's have a look at the
24 original.
25 MR. NICE: Yes, certainly.
Page 9479
1 Q. Witness T, can you produce, please, the
2 original of the newspaper and show it to us, and can
3 you tell us, please, where you obtained that newspaper
4 from and in what circumstances.
5 A. The circumstances which compelled me to ask
6 for this newspaper is such that in these newspapers, a
7 statement was given by an individual who witnessed the
8 murder of my brother. So that was the reason why I
9 looked for this newspaper, and the purpose was to
10 locate the person who survived and who would give me a
11 first-hand account on my brother. And in time, this
12 corroborated the statements and reports which appeared
13 in the newspaper.
14 Q. And it just so happened that the same edition
15 of the newspaper, the original of which is probably
16 quite valuable to you as a personal item, it just so
17 happened that that newspaper also contained set out
18 within it three orders and one photograph that we took
19 copies of yesterday?
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
22 Mr. Naumovski, this is a newspaper. A newspaper
23 remains a newspaper. As Mr. Nice said yesterday, we
24 shouldn't forget that these are professional judges in
25 front of you; we know what a newspaper is. We also
Page 9480
1 know what a tendentious newspaper is. There's a
2 certain orientation in this newspaper. We're not going
3 to spend forever with this newspaper. It's worth what
4 it's worth. It's a newspaper article. Now what we
5 have to do is to have a translation of the article so
6 we can at least know what's in it, but I don't think we
7 have to spend forever speaking about this. The
8 Prosecutor has brought in a newspaper article brought
9 in by one of the witnesses; it's worth what it's
10 worth. So we're still talking about the weight, as my
11 colleague said a few minutes ago. That's what we're
12 dealing with, and not with something which should take
13 up the Tribunal's time.
14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let us return the newspaper
15 to the witness. It may be sensible to adjourn now and
16 try and get some translations.
17 MR. NICE: I have an unofficial draft
18 translation. I know the rules of the Translation Unit
19 here are properly strict, but if we can distribute that
20 temporarily and if I can get the people in the booth
21 simply to translate the last and, I understand,
22 contentious passage at the witness's reading it, that
23 may bring me to the end of this witness's
24 examination-in-chief. Would that be a suitable
25 course?
Page 9481
1 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
2 MR. NICE: May the four sheets of paper be
3 laid before the witness --
4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice,
5 before we get to that point, you have to first tell us
6 yourself why you have brought in that newspaper
7 article. Perhaps that could help us. What is the
8 interest of having brought that newspaper article in,
9 other than the interest that the witness has just
10 mentioned?
11 MR. NICE: Both for the third order, which
12 we -- of which we don't have any sight independently.
13 We have the first two; they're already produced -- and
14 for the photograph that you'll see very shortly.
15 So can you lay it on the ELMO, please.
16 Q. Does the first order, or is the first order
17 set out in the newspaper an order of the 21st of March,
18 1992, and the Court will know from its records, or I
19 can inform it in due course, an order to the like
20 effect has already been produced by another witness.
21 MR. NICE: The second sheet, please.
22 Q. The 23rd of October, 1992, is a second order,
23 again, already produced -- I beg your pardon.
24 MR. NICE: This is the one which is not
25 produced. Can I distribute now, please, to the Court,
Page 9482
1 some draft translations, and to Defence counsel.
2 One more coming. Thank you.
3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, you mentioned the two
4 other orders.
5 MR. NICE: Yes, the following --
6 JUDGE MAY: It would be helpful to know what
7 their numbers are.
8 MR. NICE: Certainly. The first exhibit, the
9 23rd of March, was Exhibit 62, and it was produced on
10 the 23rd of April of this year by an open witness,
11 Cicak.
12 JUDGE MAY: And what was it about?
13 MR. NICE: It was a request for a meeting
14 with Susak and setting out the attendance of various
15 people.
16 The other order that was produced is dated
17 the 10th of April of 1992. It's Exhibit 71, and it was
18 the establishment of the Croatian Defence Council. And
19 so those two --
20 JUDGE MAY: They are in the clip, actually.
21 We have them.
22 MR. NICE: So this is the third one, and what
23 I would invite the Chamber to do, bearing in mind that
24 a proper translation will be forthcoming in due course,
25 would be perhaps to read for themselves, rather than
Page 9483
1 read into any part of the public record, an at-sight
2 translation, and I will get the witness simply to read
3 out the last passage, which is the particularly
4 contentious passage so far as the Defence are concerned
5 for purposes of any cross-examination.
6 If the Chamber will be good enough to read it
7 to themselves, they will see its potential
8 significance, if a true document.
9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice,
10 you're telling us that this document is authentic. Do
11 you intend to show any proof that it is authentic? Or
12 are you going to limit yourself to that press article?
13 MR. NICE: At the moment, having just myself
14 seen the article for the first time yesterday because
15 the witness brought the newspaper yesterday, I am
16 producing it for what it is. It comes along with other
17 orders that are apparently genuine, and our inquiries
18 will continue.
19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Obviously,
20 speaking for myself, I would say that for the time
21 being, we can understand that this type of document is
22 something which comes from the newspaper, from the
23 press, and with all reservations that that includes.
24 It cannot be constituent of a document which has any
25 kind of probative force in and of itself so long as it
Page 9484
1 has not been confirmed in a more official manner, so
2 long as there are no further elements to come to back
3 it up.
4 So as I said a few minutes ago, it remains
5 something which comes from a newspaper, and that's what
6 we will take it as.
7 MR. NICE:
8 Q. And Witness T, would you help us, please, to
9 this extent. You see on the screen in front of you a
10 document which has about two-thirds of the way down
11 some underlining. Would you just read out, fairly
12 slowly so that the translators can translate, the
13 sentence that is underlined and -- yes, just that
14 sentence, please, to start with.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Just read it out loud, please.
17 A. "All members of the BiH Army should be
18 disarmed --"
19 Q. Sorry. Carry on, yes.
20 A. "-- disarmed, imprisoned, and eventually
21 released after 24 hours. The Mujahedin should be
22 liquidated and the other members of the Muslim forces
23 should not be released pending further notice."
24 Q. And can you please look right at the bottom
25 of the document, literally the last sentence that you
Page 9485
1 can see there, please. Just read it out loud.
2 A. "The excerpt from this order is given on the
3 basis of an order of the command of Central Bosnia from
4 the 22nd of October 1992, on the basis of which public
5 mobilisation was proclaimed for all men fit for
6 military service. Members of the HVO who
7 convincingly --"
8 THE INTERPRETER: The witness has misread
9 what the paper says, says the interpreter. The verb is
10 not --
11 A. "-- disarm." I can't see this. It's
12 illegible.
13 Q. Very well. A proper translation to be
14 provided soon.
15 JUDGE MAY: The exhibit number, please, of
16 this?
17 MR. NICE: The exhibit number of the whole
18 clutch is 248,2.
19 Q. May the witness see the last sheet.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Judges' microphones are
21 on.
22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The point is that, of
23 course, at the moment we've got this unofficial
24 translation and therefore it may be wrong to enter it
25 as an exhibit. But we'll give it this number pending
Page 9486
1 the official arrival, the official translation when it
2 can be formally admitted. But until that time it's not
3 an official exhibit; marked, Judge Robinson suggests,
4 for identification. That would be a sensible way to
5 deal with it.
6 MR. NICE: Thank you. And may the witness
7 now see the last of the four sheets on this -- of the
8 document that I placed before him, which is the
9 photograph.
10 Q. You see from the same photograph -- I beg
11 your pardon, from the same newspaper a photograph
12 showing Kostroman, Kordic and Blaskic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And can one see in full an arm patch bearing
15 the insignia HVO?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you see anything of an arm patch on the
18 middle figure of the three, Kordic?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. NICE: Thank you very much. And that is
21 248,2(a). Yes, wait there. You will be asked some
22 further questions.
23 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now for half an
24 hour. We'll sit again at 11.15.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.45
Page 9487
1 --- On resuming at 11.16 a.m.
2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, the Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: I would just like to put some
4 numbers, right, of the exhibits. There was a document
5 submitted yesterday by the OTP, which was marked
6 248,2. This was this newspaper article. So this is
7 not yet admitted into evidence, but the unofficial
8 draft translation will be numbered 248/2A. And the
9 photograph will be numbered 248/2B.
10 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Naumovski.
11 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
12 Your Honour. Before I start, I would like to intervene
13 on a certain point. I talked to my colleagues and we
14 looked at the transcript. In response to a question on
15 page 4 of today's transcript, line 24, the witness
16 answered in Croat "no"; however, the transcript says
17 "yes," and it should have been "no." So could the
18 stenographers check this out with the interpreters
19 later, please.
20 JUDGE MAY: What was the question?
21 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] The question
22 was put by the Prosecutor whether the witness saw
23 insignia, insignia of persons who came out of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the answer was -- and then the
25 witness said from Bosnia-Herzegovina.
Page 9488
1 So you can see from the sense of the sentence
2 that the answer had to be "no."
3 JUDGE MAY: That's what I recollect him
4 saying. Yes, well that can be put right.
5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:
7 Q. Mr. T, may I introduce myself. I am Mitko
8 Naumovski. I am a defence attorney from Zagreb and I
9 am one of the Defence counsel for Mr. Dario Kordic. I
10 am going to put a few questions to you, but I have to
11 tell you in advance something that is usually said.
12 Since we understand each other full well when we start
13 speaking, we should wait for the interpretation to come
14 out in other languages.
15 My first question, perhaps we could start
16 with that, relates to what you heard had happened in
17 Kacuni. First of all, I am not sure whether you said
18 this. On which date did this occur in Kacuni; that is
19 to say, when these persons were stopped at the
20 checkpoint?
21 A. The date, in all fairness, I do not know for
22 sure, but I know that it was in January 1993, that is
23 to say before the killing of Mirsad Delija. That is to
24 say that it was during the night, according to the
25 information that I received, in the afternoon, between
Page 9489
1 5.00 and 6.00.
2 Q. I'm sorry, I did not understand. Was it the
3 same day or was it the day when Mirsad Delija was
4 killed, or not?
5 A. It was the same day.
6 Q. I would agree with you that it was in the
7 afternoon, around 4.00, if that's what you meant by
8 afternoon.
9 A. Yes, between 4.00 and -- well, it was
10 January, night-time, early night-time. There was a fog
11 and things like that.
12 Q. You said today for the first time that you
13 heard about this event from Arif Delija only in
14 September 1993?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. But you were in contact with him before that,
17 weren't you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You saw him only then?
20 A. I was in Busovaca from the 28th of January,
21 1993 until the 15th of September, 1993. Arif Delija
22 was in the local commune of Kacuni; that is to say that
23 we were on two different sides.
24 Q. If I understood you correctly, he was a
25 soldier in the 33rd?
Page 9490
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Today you said this incident occurred at a
3 point in time when several people were coming to
4 Busovaca from Kiseljak?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you mentioned their names; that is,
7 Mr. Kordic, Mr. Kostroman, and a professor of
8 chemistry, you said?
9 A. Yes, Valentic (sic).
10 Q. Are you referring to Anto Valenta from Vitez?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. However, I have to tell you that as you made
13 two statements earlier on, you said that at that
14 checkpoint only two men were stopped and searched at
15 that checkpoint, that is to say Mr. Kordic and
16 Blaskic. Blaskic.
17 A. That's what I had heard. There is a
18 possibility of Blaskic having been there.
19 Q. You are not sure that Blaskic was there?
20 A. No.
21 Q. But today you mentioned the name of Bozo
22 Rajic for the first time. Are you sure that it was
23 those people who you mentioned today?
24 A. This is the way it was. The gentlemen who
25 were in the top leadership of the Croatian
Page 9491
1 institutions --
2 Q. Sorry that I am interrupting --
3 A. -- they held meetings every day, political
4 meetings in the hall of the Busovaca municipality.
5 Q. I am sorry. I have to interrupt you.
6 Please, could you answer the question that I put to
7 you? And it's a very simple question. You mentioned a
8 few persons today who were stopped at this checkpoint
9 and you never mentioned them before, and you made two
10 statements earlier on.
11 And you mentioned General Blaskic, and you
12 said that you were not sure whether he was there?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Why do you mention these persons for the
15 first time today? A lot more time has gone by in the
16 meantime. I mean, until today rather than until the
17 day when you made your first statement.
18 A. Well, I was not there at the checkpoint, and
19 the delegation had had a meeting in Kiseljak on that
20 same date.
21 Q. If I understand you correctly, that's your
22 opinion?
23 A. Yes. Opinion.
24 Q. Can you tell me what you base this opinion
25 and conclusion of yours upon?
Page 9492
1 A. Conclusion? I base my opinion and conclusion
2 on the assumption that these persons had a meeting in
3 the municipality of Busovaca afterwards.
4 Q. But you're not sure of that; that's only your
5 assumption?
6 A. Yes, that's my assumption.
7 Q. So what you told us today about what happened
8 in Kacuni --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- I mean, the persons who were stopped, that
11 is your assumption, isn't it?
12 A. Among others, well, yes.
13 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
14 with your permission, I would like to put our position
15 to the witness right now, and I don't want really to
16 waste much time over this.
17 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. T, I have to tell you the pure truth, and
20 that is that Mr. Kordic was not in Kacuni during those
21 days at all, and he was not stopped at that
22 checkpoint.
23 Yes, please go ahead.
24 A. That's your opinion.
25 Q. No, that's a fact. I'm going to tell you who
Page 9493
1 was stopped.
2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, it's the witness
3 who gives evidence. You can make suggestions and put
4 matters to him.
5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.
6 The witness asked me, so I answered. I'm sorry.
7 Q. On that day, Mr. Kostroman and Mr. Blaskic
8 were stopped, but they were going from Busovaca to
9 Kiseljak, not the other way around. Do you know that?
10 A. What about Dario Kordic?
11 Q. Well, please answer my question first.
12 A. I did not know the direction. I stand by
13 that.
14 Q. Now, my other question related to
15 Mr. Kordic: Mr. Kordic did not leave Busovaca during
16 those days at all. In view of your assumptions, the
17 ones that you mentioned.
18 A. Yes?
19 Q. So what do you say to that?
20 A. Well, this is the way it is. My opinion is
21 that some people were stopped there, and the assumption
22 leads to one name at least. My source of information
23 is almost accurate. The witnesses, unfortunately, all
24 three brothers, all three Delija brothers, were
25 killed. Somebody had issued an order after all to
Page 9494
1 liquidate Mirsad Delija.
2 Q. Mr. T, I have to interrupt you. The Defence
3 never claimed that Mirsad Delija had not been killed.
4 We are not claiming that. We are now talking about
5 what happened in Kacuni at that checkpoint. If I
6 understand your assumptions correctly, you actually do
7 not know whether Mr. Kordic was there or not; is that
8 right?
9 JUDGE MAY: I think -- just a moment,
10 please. I think you've taken this as far as you can
11 with the witness, Mr. Naumovski. You've put your case
12 to him. The witness has told us what he heard and
13 where he heard it from. He's not saying, of course,
14 that he was there at the time. I don't think you can
15 really take it any further.
16 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] You see, the
17 witness spoke of his assumptions, and then some names
18 perhaps were mentioned involved in these assumptions
19 and others were not, and he did not say which names
20 were part of his assumptions. But if you believe that
21 enough light has been thrown on this, then we may
22 proceed.
23 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Q. So, Mr. T, I'll take you back to the
Page 9495
1 beginning. You gave your first statement on 27
2 September 1996, to the Centre for Public Security in
3 Zenica; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Would you please say "yes," because nodding
6 cannot be taken down.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You also gave a statement to the
9 investigators of this Tribunal at the end of January of
10 this year?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you also perhaps give a statement to the
13 agency for investigation of war crimes?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And the presidency? When did you give that
16 statement?
17 A. Perhaps in '95, '96.
18 Q. Was a record taken? In other words, was it
19 written down?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you perhaps have that statement on you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. I thought that perhaps you had it, because we
24 don't.
25 You will agree with me that whenever you gave
Page 9496
1 a statement on what you knew, you spoke to the best of
2 your recollection?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You spoke about things that you knew to the
5 best of your knowledge?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you tell us, please, what is your
8 profession?
9 A. I am a craftsman.
10 Q. Do you still work as a craftsman today?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell us, where did you work in 1991
13 and 1992?
14 A. I worked in the steelworks until '91.
15 Q. In Zenica?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And after that, were you employed, or not?
18 A. I was laid off. I could not move and go to
19 Zenica freely and could not go for medical care, since
20 I had a leg injury, and I could not go there for my
21 regular medical exams and for the disability
22 commission.
23 Q. You're talking about the period when
24 thousands of Croats who lived in Busovaca, Vitez, and
25 had worked in Zenica, were left jobless?
Page 9497
1 A. At that time, both Croats and Muslims, a
2 large number of those employed in the steelworks in
3 Zenica had taken the two-year salary, and then some of
4 them left Central Bosnia altogether.
5 Q. Very well. Let's not dwell on that.
6 When did you leave Busovaca? 1993, 1994?
7 When was it?
8 A. Late 1993 is when I was mobilised in the
9 ABiH, and I remained in the army until the end of 1996.
10 Q. What unit were you in?
11 A. 303rd.
12 Q. You mean 303rd, or 333rd?
13 A. 333rd.
14 Q. That was in Busovaca?
15 A. Around Busovaca.
16 Q. So it was in the territory of the Busovaca
17 municipality, nevertheless?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And in the course of 1992, you were a member
20 of the Territorial Defence in Busovaca?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Along with Arif Delija and many other people?
23 A. Yes, and many Croats, because a number of
24 Croats were also members of the Territorial Defence.
25 Q. Can you tell me, very briefly, let's go
Page 9498
1 through the events which you gave evidence about when
2 you went with Arif Delija, when you went fishing with
3 him.
4 Yesterday, in examination-in-chief, you said
5 that when you went there in early July '92, that you
6 were stopped at the checkpoint in Meraja, at the
7 bridge?
8 A. Yes, as you come onto the bridge to get to
9 Tisovac.
10 Q. And you will agree with me that you were
11 advised that you had to go back, that you couldn't go
12 on?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Yesterday you stated that you still managed
15 somehow to convince the soldiers to let you through,
16 and they in turn told you that you were seen?
17 A. Yes, they told us not to tell anybody that
18 they had seen us.
19 Q. Very well. We mentioned your previous
20 statements, and I want to point out a detail to you.
21 Earlier, on both occasions when you -- both on the
22 occasion when you spoke to the ICTY investigators and
23 to the Bosnian authorities, you said that you went
24 around this checkpoint in order not to be seen by the
25 soldiers because they would have barred you from
Page 9499
1 passing through?
2 A. Yes, they pointed out and they advised us to
3 go around this ground and to then go fishing and not to
4 make reference to them.
5 Q. Yes. But you never said that before. And I
6 am going to tell you why I am raising this as an
7 important point, because on that occasion you said that
8 you and Arif, on your own initiative, decided to go
9 forth, and I quote you, "regardless of everything," and
10 again I quote you, "at our own risk." So that would
11 mean that not only did nobody let you pass, but you
12 took it upon yourself to go at your own risk?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I just wanted to point out to you that this
15 is not what you said yesterday and today, because what
16 you said on this occasion is the exact opposite of what
17 you had said before. Do you understand me?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Well, is that true?
20 A. The truth is that we were warned and that we
21 proceeded on -- on our own responsibility to go
22 fishing.
23 Q. So you say that they let you go, that they
24 let you pass?
25 A. Yes.
Page 9500
1 Q. Which is what you said yesterday for the
2 first time.
3 Now, tell me, why would you run the risk?
4 A. We did not see that we should have been
5 prevented from fishing, because we went along the
6 Ivancica River all the time and we kept -- we fished
7 all the time. So we did not think it very dangerous to
8 keep moving on in order to fish.
9 Q. Even in spite of the fact that you saw an
10 improperly buried or hastily buried body of a soldier
11 nearby?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And in that respect, just one question. You
14 say that this body was buried up, so to speak, in the
15 open, not somewhere where it's a hidden place, but
16 right next to the bridge, so that certain parts of the
17 bodies could even be seen?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You described the first incident. I am not
20 going to repeat it, but let me ask you: You were
21 basically accused of being infiltrated because you were
22 in that area without permission?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. However, when the situation was clarified,
25 Grubesic escorted you back and, in essence, apologised?
Page 9501
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In late July you went towards the black top
3 or the Mount Busovaca for the second time?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. This is some 10, 15 kilometres away from
6 Busovaca; is that correct?
7 A. Some two hours' walk.
8 Q. And about, what, 10 or more kilometres away
9 from Tisovac also, or the other way? I mean from the
10 black summit.
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Just give us an approximate figure.
13 A. There were 15 to 20.
14 Q. You mean kilometres?
15 A. Approximately.
16 Q. With respect to the second incident, you gave
17 two statements, which we referred to just now. And
18 just in general, I don't want to go into detail, but in
19 the first statement you described in detail that you
20 saw the manner in which this one soldier whom you
21 believed to have been a member of the Serbian Army was
22 killed, and today you said that you absolutely did not
23 see the killing itself. Which of that is true? That
24 is the question.
25 A. The truth is that we were prevented and that
Page 9502
1 we could not see the murder.
2 Q. Yes. But Mr. T, let me point out to you that
3 you described the murder for the -- in a very detailed
4 way in your first statement and you signed it. I can
5 show you your signature.
6 A. I believe that this is not true.
7 Q. Let me just add something to what I said you
8 signed in your statement. Before you signed it, it is
9 mentioned, and I quote, "I have nothing further to add
10 to this. I have heard this statement being read back
11 to me. I am prepared to repeat it before a Tribunal or
12 any other international institution which may express
13 an interest in it. Should I remember any additional
14 details, I am prepared to amend the statement. I
15 consider it my own and I confirm it by signing it."
16 Do you understand me? You saw this written
17 down when you were signing it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So you say that in spite of all of this, that
20 this statement is not true?
21 A. The end of this story, that is until the
22 murder itself, is not true.
23 Q. Thank you. Just to add -- in October of 1992
24 you again went for the third time with Arif over there?
25 A. Yes.
Page 9503
1 Q. So in spite of all the dangers which you were
2 exposed to, the first and the second time, you still
3 went for a third time in that area. Mr. T, it would
4 seem that Arif Delija and you, as members of the TO,
5 were sent there to reconnoitre the area?
6 A. Yes, perhaps that is true.
7 Q. Just another detail in relation to this
8 statement. Yesterday you mentioned a soldier named
9 Boban. This man is never mentioned in any of your
10 statements, but a different person is mentioned.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Ante Budimir is mentioned?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is that this person?
15 A. Well, his nickname was Bobi or Boban,
16 something like that.
17 Q. But you told the Prosecutor yesterday that
18 that was his real name. He asked you expressly?
19 A. Yes. I meant -- I thought that it was,
20 because we have called him by that name throughout the
21 time that I have known him since childhood.
22 Q. That is not so important. You may have
23 recalled yesterday I got up to object to the HDZ
24 mention. Can we agree that you do not know very
25 specific details about the HDZ organisation; that is,
Page 9504
1 when it was established, who were the Presidents and so
2 on? Is that correct?
3 A. Superficially I do know, but globally
4 speaking, I don't know all the names.
5 Q. My question, Witness T, is that you do not
6 know precisely in detail everything that I said?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In other words, you know what the general
9 knowledge was in Busovaca at the time; that's what you
10 know?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. But I need to ask you one thing regarding
13 Mr. Kordic. Actually, a series of questions regarding
14 Mr. Kordic. We've resolved the issue on the HDZ, so
15 I'll skip that. But yesterday you said that Mr. Kordic
16 was the vice-president of the war presidency?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who was the President of this war presidency?
19 A. I believe that it was Asim Sunulahpasic.
20 Q. Asim Sunulahpasic was President of the
21 executive board in Busovaca?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And he's a Muslim?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you know when this war presidency was
Page 9505
1 established?
2 A. I believe in late 1991.
3 Q. Perhaps I should have asked you better. What
4 war presidency are you referring to?
5 A. The joint one.
6 Q. So in fact you are not referring to the war
7 presidency but to the joint crisis staff?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You don't know anything about the criteria
10 according to which this joint crisis staff was
11 established?
12 A. I know that there was parity in terms of the
13 victory achieved.
14 Q. In the elections?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Mr. Sunulahpasic entered this crisis staff as
17 President of the executive council, that is to say the
18 then government of Busovaca?
19 A. I think so, yes.
20 Q. Do you know who at that time was President of
21 the Municipal Assembly of Busovaca? Did you understand
22 my question?
23 A. Yes. Well, it was from the Croatian people.
24 Q. But you don't know who it was?
25 A. I can't remember the name.
Page 9506
1 Q. Let me put a simpler question to you.
2 Perhaps can you tell the Honourable Court on what you
3 base your assertion that Mr. Kordic was
4 vice-president. You are referring to this crisis
5 staff, if we've -- clear that up today.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you tell us some facts upon which you
8 base your assertion? Actually, you are not sure, if
9 that is how I can interpret your silence, that
10 Mr. Kordic was vice-president to Mr. Sunulahpasic in
11 this crisis staff, right?
12 A. I think that Kordic was commander of the
13 Territorial Defence and then transferred to the post of
14 vice-president of the war presidency.
15 Q. I understand that that's what you think, but
16 I asked you for the facts. By the way, who was
17 Commander of the Territorial Defence? Husein
18 Hadzimejlic, right?
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. So it wasn't Mr. Kordic, right?
21 A. But at one period of time he was present in
22 this staff, Dario Kordic was.
23 Q. Mr. Kordic was never in the Territorial
24 Defence, Witness T. He was secretary in the
25 municipality.
Page 9507
1 A. The secretary for what?
2 Q. Yes, for national defence.
3 A. I know, but this is an executive agency, not
4 a military agency.
5 Q. Mr. T, let me be quite frank about this. It
6 is not my opinion; it is a fact.
7 A. Yes?
8 Q. The crisis staff was established -- that is
9 to say the joint staff -- was established as follows.
10 It was the president of the municipality and the
11 president of the executive council, or the executive
12 board, and a few other persons. The president of the
13 municipal assembly was ex officio president of this
14 joint crisis staff, if that's what we're going to call
15 it, and the president of the executive board or
16 executive counsel was the vice-president of this crisis
17 staff. The name that you could not remember is the
18 president of the municipal assembly of Busovaca,
19 Mr. Zoran Maric. He was the president of the crisis
20 staff, and his deputy was Mr. Asim Sunulahpasic, not
21 Mr. Kordic. Obviously you had made a mistake. Do you
22 agree with what I'm saying?
23 JUDGE MAY: Well, I don't think you can
24 really get much further with this. There will be
25 evidence which you can produce if you want on this
Page 9508
1 particular topic. I think you have dealt very
2 thoroughly with it as far as the witness is concerned.
3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
4 Your Honour. I'm just following your instructions from
5 earlier on, that in such situations, we should present
6 our own position quite clearly and then see what the
7 witness will say to that. But perhaps we may proceed
8 at this point.
9 Q. Perhaps another question related to the war
10 presidency that was set up in Kacuni in January 1993,
11 January. Do you know anything about this?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you know that the president of the war
14 presidency -- I'm talking about the war presidency that
15 was established by the Muslims in Kacuni -- was Asir
16 Mekic?
17 A. Yes, but this was after I got out of Busovaca.
18 Q. No, this was in January 1993, but never
19 mind. If you don't know anything about this, I'm not
20 going to put any further questions to you about it.
21 Yesterday you said that Mr. Dario Kordic wore
22 a uniform every now and then?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Today, on the photograph, you showed an
25 armband on Mr. Kordic's left arm, as all other persons
Page 9509
1 had, and it said "HVO"?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Tell me, where did Mr. Kordic wear insignia
4 of his rank?
5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: Perhaps we could use the same
6 photograph. With the permission of the Court, perhaps
7 we could have the photograph placed on the ELMO once
8 again. I think it is Z248,2B, if I'm not mistaken.
9 Q. Where is his rank?
10 A. The rank was here [indicates].
11 Q. Do we agree that it's not on this picture?
12 A. Yes. But here --
13 Q. And when did you first see Mr. Kordic wearing
14 a sign of his rank on his uniform?
15 A. In '92, in the month of July or August.
16 Q. When the HVO brigade was formed, the one you
17 mentioned, in August 1992?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Just one more question related to this
20 photograph, so let's sort that out. The caption --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The caption is not an integral part of the
23 photograph, right? It is from a newspaper?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. This was written without any quotation marks?
Page 9510
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. But we have to explain this to the Judges,
3 because both you and I understand what this means, but
4 we have to explain it to the Judges. So it says "Za Ka
5 pe Dom spremni," "Prepared for the house of
6 correction," "Kostroman, Kordic, Blaskic."
7 Do we agree, Witness T, that "KP Dom" is an
8 abbreviation for "house of correction"?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So that means "prison," right?
11 A. Yes, but it is also -- there is also another
12 abbreviation there, and that is of "Za Dom spremni,"
13 "ready for the homeland."
14 Q. Mr. T, let's not quarrel on this, because
15 these are two completely different things, "Ka pe Dom
16 spremni" and "Za Dom spremni." Let us just explain
17 this to the Judges. Let us just explain the source.
18 Thank you. When you spoke of this act -- or rather
19 when you spoke about rank, yesterday you said that you
20 did not find the rank clear. What did you mean by
21 that?
22 A. I did not know it.
23 Q. But in your previous statement, you said that
24 it was an officer's rank?
25 A. Yes.
Page 9511
1 Q. That is to say a senior officer's rank,
2 right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. But that is only your inference; you don't
5 really know this for sure?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know, to the best of your knowledge,
8 whether a single soldier in July 1992, or a single
9 uniformed person in the HVO, had any rank, any sign of
10 rank, on their uniforms?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You never saw anyone else? Thank you.
13 To put this as briefly as possible, the part
14 where you mentioned the Tisa Hotel, you spoke about a
15 series of units that had their command, to the best of
16 your knowledge, over there?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. But I think we will agree that the MUP never
19 had its headquarters in the Tisa Hotel?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The military police, the intervention
22 platoon, et cetera, they had their headquarters where
23 you mentioned, behind Nama, or rather behind the bus
24 station? How shall I put it?
25 A. Yes, but the intervention platoon was in
Page 9512
1 Tisa.
2 Q. Another piece of information related to
3 Skorpions.
4 A. Yes?
5 Q. We're talking about Mr. Dario Kordic all the
6 time, so I'll tell you quite frankly that I never heard
7 of that name. Who told you that they were called
8 Skorpions? What do you base this conclusion upon?
9 A. I base it on statements made by my friends,
10 that part of the intervention platoon was involved in
11 guarding Dario Kordic personally, and they were called
12 Skorpions.
13 Q. So that is something you heard about in
14 Busovaca; rumour had it in Busovaca that that's the way
15 it was?
16 A. Well, yes, perhaps you could put it that way
17 too, yes.
18 Q. But we agree that the men we are talking
19 about did not have any special insignia?
20 A. No. No, they did not have any special
21 insignia, except for their uniforms, their weapons --
22 Q. All right. Like any other soldier, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. Let us continue with the
25 questions related to Mr. Kordic, so that we could be as
Page 9513
1 accurate as possible.
2 Yesterday, in response to the Prosecutor's
3 question, and it was a direct question, you were
4 supposed to say, on the basis of your own experience,
5 what your opinion was as to when Mr. Dario Kordic
6 became president of the HDZ and whether he had any
7 authority, and you answered that he had political
8 authority in several municipalities?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. First of all, how do you know that, and what
11 is that conclusion based upon?
12 A. It is based upon what was seen on television,
13 on TV Busovaca. They broadcast live the sessions where
14 these gentlemen were present and where they passed
15 crucial decisions.
16 Q. Mr. T, these were political discussions,
17 political meetings; right?
18 A. Military too.
19 Q. Give me one example when a military session
20 was televised and when Mr. Kordic was present, please.
21 A. '93, the month of February.
22 Q. So after the conflict broke out?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What was this meeting about?
25 A. Well, it directly had to do with the exchange
Page 9514
1 of territories and the moving out of Muslims from
2 Zenica, Visoko, from Zenica to Vitez, then also marking
3 borders, territories, things like that.
4 Q. Mr. T, that is from one of the articles that
5 you gave us from these newspapers that you gave us.
6 This is mentioned in one of the articles?
7 A. Well, possibly. I didn't read that.
8 Q. But may I, on the basis of what you said,
9 conclude that you watched a press conference on
10 television, not a military meeting?
11 A. Well, the gentlemen were present there, the
12 gentlemen from the military and political leadership.
13 Q. But this was a press conference, for
14 journalists from home and abroad?
15 A. Well, maybe. I think that's the way it was.
16 Q. All right. If we've agreed on that, then we
17 can go on.
18 Sorry, I forgot another question from that
19 area. When you said "political authority," I don't
20 want the Honourable Trial Chamber to misunderstand what
21 we are saying, especially because all of this is being
22 interpreted into the English language. What did you
23 mean by that?
24 A. In this situation of war in Busovaca, the
25 political structures of government were absorbed,
Page 9515
1 mobilised for defence.
2 Q. Yes, you said that yesterday, that's correct,
3 but in response to another question. However, your
4 opinion was that Mr. Kordic had political power in all
5 those municipalities that you mentioned. What do you
6 mean by that? Because the Court should understand what
7 you mean.
8 A. Well, persons who were dedicated to Dario
9 Kordic were put in key positions. For example, an
10 acquaintance of mine, Pasko Ljubicic, in the
11 municipality of Vitez, and others.
12 Q. Mr. T, when you're talking about these
13 influences --
14 A. Yes?
15 Q. -- actually, do you know who the president of
16 the HVO was, after the HVO was established, of the
17 civilian government of the HVO?
18 A. I think it was Zoran Maric, the president of
19 the municipality.
20 Q. From the very outset, when the HVO was
21 established, the HVO government; is that what you're
22 saying?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. But that's not correct, Mr. T. Florijan
25 Glavocevic was the first president. You know
Page 9516
1 Mr. Glavocevic?
2 A. He was elected president of the Territorial
3 Defence, too, on behalf of both populations. However,
4 this was never established. The reasons were clear.
5 Q. Mr. T, we are talking about political
6 influence, and in that context I'm asking you the
7 following: Do you agree with me when I say that
8 Florijan Glavocevic was the president of the civilian
9 government of HVO in Busovaca before Mr. Maric?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Do we agree that the civilian government of
12 the HVO had so-called administrative executive
13 functions?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. That is to say, in other words, it did the
16 things that a municipality otherwise does?
17 A. Yes, but the military had priority.
18 Q. But you didn't answer my question as to how
19 it was that Mr. Kordic had power in Fojnica, Stari
20 Travnik, and for that matter, you mentioned all the
21 surrounding municipalities.
22 And if you just will wait for the
23 interpretation to be finished.
24 A. I say that Pasko Ljubicic was a good
25 acquaintance and a friend of Dubravka Kordic.
Page 9517
1 Q. Witness T, you mentioned Pasko Ljubicic. I
2 asked you about Travnik and Fojnica, that is the two
3 towns in opposite ends of the region. And how did
4 Mr. Kordic have authority power there?
5 A. He was seen during masses, in churches where
6 he held speeches and so on.
7 Q. Very well. Do you know about other
8 municipalities: Kresevo, Kiseljak? Do you have any
9 specific facts which you can mention or do you just
10 conclude this in general from his political activities?
11 A. I know from Pasko Ljubicic.
12 Q. Could you tell us any fact about the
13 political influence of Mr. Kordic regarding the
14 situation, let's say, in the municipality of Novi
15 Travnik? And what is the basis of your conclusion?
16 A. The forces which were sent to take Novi
17 Travnik were sent from Busovaca.
18 Q. Now that you mention Busovaca, who was the
19 HVO military commander in Busovaca at the time? Do you
20 know? If you don't know, just say so.
21 A. I don't.
22 Q. I just mentioned the HDZ military structures
23 in Busovaca xxx, and you said that Dusko Grubesic was a
24 commander?
25 A. Yes, but this was in '92.
Page 9518
1 Q. Who was there before him, so that the Trial
2 Chamber has a full picture of it? Who was the
3 commander of the Busovaca brigade, that is, the Nikola
4 Subic-Zrinjski Brigade, before Mr. Grubesic?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Witness T, if you will agree with me, you
7 make inferences on Mr. Kordic's political power based
8 on his political activity, but that's just your
9 inference?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Yesterday, I don't think that this was very
12 relevant, but you brought it up, so I need to ask you.
13 You said that Mr. Dario Kordic was related and on
14 friendly terms with the Anto Sliskovic family because
15 Franjo Sliskovic, Anto's brother, had married the
16 sister of Mr. Kordic's wife; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When you talked about these relations between
19 Mr. Sliskovic and Kordic and when you mentioned all of
20 this, you placed all this in the context of 1992,
21 because that was the year that was being discussed at
22 the time; is that correct?
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. Witness T, you obviously confused this with
25 some other -- because of some other things, and I will
Page 9519
1 say why, and I apologise to the Trial Chamber for --
2 JUDGE MAY: I don't follow this.
3 Mr. Naumovski, what are you going to put to the
4 witness?
5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I was just
6 coming to the question.
7 Q. Mr. Franjo Sliskovic married the sister of
8 Kordic's wife in December of 1994. That was much
9 later.
10 A. Well, that was only on paper.
11 Q. We can prove it if necessary, but perhaps we
12 should not dwell on this. But let me point to you to
13 another matter. Yesterday you said expressly that
14 Mr. Kordic was superior to Mr. Sliskovic?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you provided no fact to support it.
17 Could you state any facts in that respect for the Trial
18 Chamber?
19 A. The units which went to liberate Novi Travnik
20 went from Busovaca through Nadioci, Ahmici, Vitez and
21 beyond. These units were led by Dario Kordic. I say
22 this on the basis of fact that he was stopped at the
23 checkpoint at the limits of the Busovaca municipality
24 by the reserve forces of MUP of Busovaca municipality
25 -- that is, Vitez municipality.
Page 9520
1 Q. Excuse me. Could you give us the precise
2 location where this happened?
3 A. This was between Nadioci and the restaurant
4 called Sunce, where the road winds.
5 Q. So was that before the cemetery?
6 A. That was on the stretch before Nadioci and
7 the Vitez municipality limits and Busovaca municipality
8 limits.
9 Q. How do you know this? Who told you about
10 this?
11 A. My nephew, who was there at the checkpoint,
12 he told me this. And later on, after the Ahmici were
13 occupied, he was killed and massacred --
14 JUDGE MAY: Let's finish. That's your
15 nephew, is it, who was killed?
16 A. It's a cousin.
17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Witness T, I have to tell you that the Trial
19 Chamber had an opportunity to hear other witnesses who
20 claimed that Mr. Dario Kordic was at some meeting --
21 JUDGE MAY: That's a pure comment. You can
22 make the comment to us. It's not for the witness.
23 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes. I just
24 wanted to confront the witness with that. I
25 apologise.
Page 9521
1 Q. But I can put it to the witness that
2 Mr. Kordic was never stopped at that checkpoint.
3 A. Yes, you can put it to me, but can you prove
4 it?
5 Q. I am not here to answer your questions, but I
6 will put it to you that there was no witness who
7 testified here who testified to that.
8 JUDGE MAY: That's a comment.
9 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I agree with
10 you, Your Honours.
11 Q. Let us move on, Witness T. Yesterday you
12 very specifically said that Mr. Kordic was a cousin of
13 Mr. Boban?
14 A. Yes, that is what I think.
15 Q. I did not find that in the transcript, but I
16 think that you even elucidated that it was on the
17 maternal side?
18 A. I thought that it was actually the paternal
19 side, through his father, Pero Kordic.
20 Q. Very well. Let's not go deeper into that.
21 But this is your opinion. Now, can you give us any
22 fact to support it?
23 A. From conversations among the Croats in
24 Busovaca, I reached that conclusion.
25 Q. If I understand it correctly, those are some
Page 9522
1 kind of rumours or stories?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
4 this may be irrelevant, but Mr. Kordic is not -- has no
5 relation that was stated. I think that maybe something
6 else was intended by such implication.
7 Q. Just one detail regarding the Busovaca
8 mosque. Are we in agreement that Mr. Kordic responded
9 to a question by a journalist that, "Why shouldn't
10 there be a mosque in Busovaca when there are mosques in
11 other cities?" And he made a specific reference to
12 Rome.
13 A. Yes. He said that there was one in Rome.
14 Q. Mr. T, on what day in the week was it when
15 the conflict in Busovaca broke out?
16 A. It was -- I think it was Saturday or Sunday.
17 Q. If it was Saturday or Sunday, then your dates
18 are wrong, because the Sunday was the 24th of January,
19 1993.
20 A. So that would have been on the 25th.
21 Q. So then we would agree that it was a Monday,
22 not on Sunday?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. We have already spoken about what had gone on
25 a couple of days before, which was an attempt at
Page 9523
1 abduction of Mr. Kostroman and Mr. Blaskic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Today you mentioned that they were taken to
4 the silo for a short period of time?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber what a
7 silo was, what it meant at the time?
8 A. That was a place which was used by the
9 Yugoslav People's Army, which was then turned over or
10 was taken and given to use to the Territorial Defence.
11 Q. My very specific question was: Was that a
12 camp for Croats?
13 A. At that time, no.
14 Q. And when did it become a camp for Croats?
15 A. I believe sometime in July or August, maybe
16 even September 1993, but this -- but not that military
17 complex. It was another one.
18 Q. But where the silo was, in that area?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do we agree that the day before the 25th,
21 that is, on the 24th, at 3 p.m., two Croats were killed
22 at the Kacuni checkpoint: Ivica Petrovic from Busovaca
23 and another person who was from somewhere else?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you go to Kacuni on a regular basis
Page 9524
1 before the conflict, that is throughout 1992?
2 A. To Kacuni. I would say through Kacuni, yes,
3 but to Kacuni only on occasion.
4 Q. I had in mind a wider area of Kacuni with
5 regard to your duties in defence activities throughout
6 1992.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When the Territorial Defence was deployed in
9 Kacuni, it was meant by personnel mostly from Busovaca
10 and the surrounding areas; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. But on the days when that abduction -- when
13 Ivica Petrovic and Igor Bogdanovic were killed, a
14 number of soldiers from Zenica arrived there, that is,
15 from the Zenica TO; is that correct?
16 A. At that time I did not go to the Kacuni
17 area. I heard that some Croats were killed, that is,
18 later, and that there was a conflict. And I had an
19 opportunity to see this. And that there were some
20 units there.
21 Q. My apologies. It is not in the -- it is not
22 -- it was not entered into the transcript that those
23 two men were Croats who were killed.
24 A. Yes. And I heard that they were killed and
25 that they were Croats.
Page 9525
1 Q. Very well. I think that that is corrected.
2 We can move on. The day when the conflict started on
3 the 25th of January 1993, Witness T, you were still a
4 member of the TO and you had certain duties?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 A. (redacted)
10 Q. (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 A. (redacted)
13 Q. (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 A. Yes, but that was later, I believe before the
17 conflict.
18 Q. We are talking about the time period up to
19 25th of January?
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE MAY: Just before you go on. Now, how
22 is this going to assist the Trial Chamber in deciding
23 this case? Again, it seems to me an effort to
24 establish that there was misconduct or there were
25 murders of some Croats. Even if that is so, how does
Page 9526
1 that justify what happened thereafter? Now, we need
2 really to speed up. This witness has been giving
3 evidence for a long time. We ought to try and finish
4 him today.
5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
6 the situation is very simple. We assert that
7 everything that preceded the conflict, and the
8 Honourable Trial Chamber has already heard about this
9 -- actually, we are going to prove this during our own
10 case, that the Muslims attacked the Croats on the 25th
11 of January.
12 JUDGE MAY: You will prove what is relevant,
13 and not a series of allegations against the other
14 side. You can prove what's relevant, but really the
15 tit-for-tat approach is taking up a great deal of
16 time. And I am speaking for myself. I am very
17 concerned about it. Because I am not sure that it's
18 relevant to these matters.
19 In any event, can we move on?
20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] May it please
21 the Court. This is not a question of tit-for-tat. We
22 are just trying to explain how the war in Busovaca
23 broke out in January 1993 and who attacked who.
24 A. Yes, but you didn't mention --
25 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Wait a
Page 9527
1 minute, Witness T.
2 A. Yes, but you didn't mention '92.
3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Well, the
4 Court knows about that.
5 JUDGE MAY: Now, Witness T, please don't
6 intervene.
7 Mr. Naumovski, will you now move along with
8 this cross-examination and try and complete it so that
9 if there is any other questions by Defence counsel, it
10 can be altogether finished by the time the adjournment
11 comes. You have been cross-examining for something
12 like an hour and a half.
13 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
14 I do bear time in mind and I believe that we are going
15 to finish everything during the rest of the day today.
16 Q. As for this unit that was established in this
17 area, Mr. T, just one more question.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. On the 25th of January, 1993 --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- this platoon that we are talking about --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- that is to say, this military unit, had
24 positioned itself on the hill of Crvencina?
25 A. This platoon was deployed in the zone of
Page 9528
1 responsibility in the defence of Maglaj.
2 Q. Mr. T, I am talking about you, who were in
3 Busovaca at the time.
4 A. I am also talking about the very same
5 platoon, and I am saying that part of the platoon, not
6 the entire platoon -- that is to say, 60 per cent --
7 with all their weapons, and all the other platoons from
8 the detachment of Busovaca, were engaged in the defence
9 of Maglaj.
10 Q. Mr. T, part of the platoon was in Busovaca,
11 wasn't it?
12 A. Yes, but without any weapons --
13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, it is no part of
14 counsel's task to argue with the witnesses. Put your
15 case, get the answer, and then please move on.
16 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] One more
17 question, Your Honour. Thank you. And I do apologise
18 if I started arguing with the witness for a moment or
19 so.
20 Q. After the shooting and after the fighting
21 that ensued, did you withdraw to Nezir Mujicic's house?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that's where you were arrested?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. (redacted)
Page 9529
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 A. (redacted)
4 Q. (redacted)
5 A. (redacted)
6 Q. (redacted)
7 A. (redacted)
8 Q. (redacted)
9 mentioned Nermin Elezovic and Jasmin Sehovic's murders?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I believe we will agree that it was others
12 that told you about this; you were not there, right?
13 A. (redacted).
14 We were taken out together.
15 Q. Yes, I understand that. But you did not see
16 the actual killing; that's what I am trying to say.
17 A. No, I did not.
18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: Your Honours, I want to
19 shorten the proceedings, so I'm not going to put any
20 other questions in this respect, but I wish to draw
21 your attention to D38/1, which speaks of this incident,
22 so I don't really have to question the witness about
23 this unnecessarily.
24 Q. Mr. T, I have to go back to this document,
25 the one that you gave from the newspapers, that is to
Page 9530
1 say, Z248/2. You were in the army, right?
2 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] So could this
3 please be shown to the witness.
4 Q. So that is the document that we discussed
5 today, right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So you were in the army, and you know that
8 such secret documents, so to speak, have in their upper
9 right-hand corner a sign saying "Confidential,"
10 "Strictly Confidential," or "Military Secret," or
11 something like that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you say yes?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. This document doesn't have that, does it?
16 A. Yes. I can't see it.
17 Q. And the sentence that you could not read, at
18 the very bottom, the last sentence in this paper is:
19 "Members of the HVO who resist should be disarmed, and
20 in more serious incidents, killed." Is that what you
21 could not have read?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And the last thing , something that we have
24 here in the Croatian text, that is to say the order for
25 an attack on Travnik. At the very bottom, that is a
Page 9531
1 headline from a newspaper; is that right?
2 A. Possibly.
3 Q. Today a document was shown to you, 861, or
4 rather the other one, that pertains to your neighbour.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So it's 861,1. Do you agree with me that in
7 these documents, no specific time is mentioned? It
8 doesn't say at any point how long this is valid, for
9 how long a period is this valid?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. But you had this same kind of document,
12 didn't you?
13 A. Yes, yes, but a different nationality.
14 Q. But, please, why did you state in your
15 earlier statements that you did have a limit, a time
16 limit, on your document, the 1st of April?
17 A. I don't know. Perhaps I referred to the
18 curfew.
19 Q. So perhaps it's a mistake; do we agree on
20 that?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
23 I'm trying to finish as soon as possible, so I'm trying
24 to see what are the new things that he mentioned
25 today.
Page 9532
1 Q. Mr. T, do you agree that in the period -- or
2 rather in the summer of 1993, to be precise, before you
3 left Busovaca, there was a big wave, so to speak, of
4 refugees from Travnik in this entire region; they came
5 to Busovaca?
6 A. Yes. I had the opportunity of seeing that at
7 the bus station.
8 Q. Today, Mr. T, you presented an opinion of
9 yours that Mr. Dario Kordic had to know about
10 everything that was going on in Busovaca. That is your
11 conclusion, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Witness T, did you ever see Mr. Kordic say in
14 public or write in public or sign in public a military
15 order for an attack against the Muslims? I'm referring
16 to the period from May 1992 until the end of the war.
17 A. No. Personally, I did not.
18 Q. So your conclusion is based on what we would
19 call general knowledge, or rumour? I don't know if you
20 understand what I'm saying. Do we agree on that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I think, Witness T, that we're almost over
23 with my questions. Let me just have a look and see
24 whether I've missed something.
25 I'm going to change this question.
Page 9533
1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: Perhaps, for the very end --
2 well, perhaps it's best for me to finish at this point,
3 Your Honours. I'm afraid that if I put another
4 question, I'm going to enter a new subject altogether,
5 so then I'm going to be short for time. I thank you
6 once again, and I thank you, Witness, for your
7 questions.
8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, you've got a few
9 minutes left. If you want to go into something else,
10 of course, you can.
11 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
12 Your Honour. I don't think that you prevented me from
13 carrying out my work. I just think that I should
14 finish at this point because I'm afraid I should not
15 raise any other issues. Thank you.
16 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
17 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] You know the
18 answer, Your Honour: No, we don't have any questions.
19 Thank you.
20 JUDGE MAY: We can't always be sure.
21 MR. NICE: Two questions only.
22 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:
23 Q. Witness T, in relation to the group that you
24 have called the Skorpions, were any of those Skorpions
25 known to you by name?
Page 9534
1 A. They were part of the intervention platoon.
2 The intervention platoon consisted of troublesome
3 Croats, who were wanted men by the police and things
4 like that. That is to say that before the conflict,
5 they had done things they were not supposed to do.
6 As for the names, I personally met Milenko
7 Akrap; I knew him from before. Ivica Kristo. Ivica
8 from Gusti Grab; I cannot remember the name right now.
9 Q. I'm going to interrupt you there. Where did
10 you get the name "Skorpion" from? Did you get it from
11 talking to people you knew, or from somewhere else?
12 A. They said, either by way of a joke or not, on
13 the 17th of April 1993, in front of the department
14 store in Busovaca -- actually, in that part of the
15 street, I mean, I was there for medical reasons; I was
16 walking along that street. I reached that street where
17 the intervention platoon, the military police, had some
18 kind of a celebration. It so happened that I was
19 stopped, and I was forced to drink beer with them to
20 celebrate some kind of victory.
21 Among others, Drazen Kresic, Dzare Pulic were
22 there, and other acquaintances who knew me. They were
23 friendly towards me, and as we talked and joked, they
24 said that they belonged to the Skorpions.
25 Q. Thank you. Second question: How short or
Page 9535
1 long a time after the alleged stopping of Kordic at the
2 checkpoint did your relation, your nephew or your
3 cousin, report that to you? So how long after the
4 stopping was it that he told you about it?
5 A. Some 30 days went by; that is, from when he
6 was stopped at the checkpoint.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. I guess it was at night. I believe this
9 checkpoint then pulled back to the cemetery below
10 Ahmici, and during that night --
11 Q. That's all I want to know.
12 There is a third question, and it's this.
13 Your visits to the area of Tisovac, just answer this
14 question if you want to: Were they part of an act of
15 reconnoitring, or were they just pastime, or do you
16 prefer not to say?
17 A. I say with responsibility that I did not go
18 there as part of any military tasks; that I went to the
19 area of Tisovac -- even before the war, I engaged in
20 fishing, I went to get mushrooms, and other activities
21 that had some economic value.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. NICE: Nothing else.
24 JUDGE MAY: Witness T, that concludes your
25 evidence. Thank you for coming to the International
Page 9536
1 Tribunal to give it. You are now released.
2 While these matters are being looked into,
3 Mr. Nice, you've got one witness tomorrow?
4 MR. NICE: At the moment I have an
5 embarrassment in relation to witnesses which I am
6 finding out about, and I'll tell you about it when this
7 witness withdraws.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 MR. NICE: Before we pass from this witness,
10 in my efforts to be economic with time and with paper,
11 I think I've probably been nothing but confusion and
12 difficulty to your staff. And it occurs to me that in
13 relation to the newspaper, it might be prudent to have
14 the four extracts from the newspaper, which are four
15 sheets, collectively produced as a separate exhibit,
16 because it may be that the accuracy of one of the other
17 orders in comparison with the orders already proved
18 will come to be of significance; it may be not. They
19 are four sheets, and they could be produced as a single
20 exhibit, 2783, and the Chamber will then know that the
21 whole newspaper was copied for the Defence. But I
22 think I've rather caused problems with the numbering;
23 I'm sorry about that.
24 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you could discuss that
25 with the registry to find the most convenient answer to
Page 9537
1 it.
2 MR. NICE: The position as to the witnesses
3 is, to say the least, worrying. I think the last week
4 and this week, the problems we've faced with three
5 major witnesses booked to attend on either last week,
6 this week, and next week, whatever it is, include such
7 things as a witness being quite willing to attend and
8 then at the last minute finding that his son was going
9 to visit him in a far-off land, unknown to him, and his
10 then saying, "I'm not coming"; a witness, having been
11 booked a long time in advance, coming from the other
12 side of the world, when we tried to reorganise the
13 schedule to make things fit, he is entirely
14 unavailable, and so we can't yet be sure whether he is
15 coming as planned or not, and he's a high-ranking
16 officer, who is only going to give us a very limited
17 amount of time; and then the witness that I -- I didn't
18 identify; was identified very helpfully for me last
19 week as somebody who could fill what was by now
20 becoming a short week, a witness who is in the building
21 and I had thought was going to be available to give
22 evidence tomorrow, I've just received a message, which
23 is why Mr. Scott's left the room, that unknown to us,
24 though he very helpfully came for the last two days, he
25 may not now be available tomorrow, so I am
Page 9538
1 investigating that at once.
2 These witnesses are all, I think, military or
3 similar witnesses. And looking ahead to next week in
4 general, there is a problem that we're going to have
5 too little evidence, or it may be, if the witness who
6 comes from the other side of the world arrives, because
7 he has been booked and is going to come and that's
8 that, and he's only going to give us two days, we may
9 have too much evidence.
10 What I would ask in relation to these, as it
11 were, professional witnesses is that if necessary,
12 consideration be given to the possibility of their
13 summaries counting as, once adopted, evidence, save and
14 to the extent that the Defence identify passages that
15 need to be taken in detail and could be the subject of
16 cross-examination. Of course, it may be, rather than
17 having too much evidence, that I shall land up having
18 too little.
19 As to tomorrow, I'm going to need a few
20 minutes yet to find out what the position is. As you
21 will understand, I've sent a message out immediately
22 asking the colonel whether he can do anything to
23 rearrange tomorrow's appointment, of which we were
24 earlier unaware, and be available to help us with
25 evidence tomorrow. That's Mr. Schipper. I know the
Page 9539
1 Defence --
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: What is the situation, now?
4 What is the situation, exactly? That you have no
5 witness for tomorrow morning, or maybe?
6 MR. NICE: Well, as of ten minutes ago, I was
7 told no. Mr. Scott's gone out to attempt negotiations,
8 but I understand that it is a firm no. He is a
9 military officer from northern Europe, and he
10 apparently is intent on returning.
11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] So you have
12 no more witnesses from now to the end of this week at
13 least?
14 MR. NICE: That's absolutely right.
15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: And you are not sure about
16 the next week?
17 MR. NICE: Next week I think I have two or
18 three witnesses. If it's two witnesses, it will be a
19 bit too little; if it's three witnesses, given that
20 they are substantial witnesses, it could be a little
21 bit too much. I have erred on the side of having too
22 many witnesses, and I have attempted to make
23 arrangements to have the witness coming from the other
24 side of the world come, on the basis that I forecast
25 the Chamber would probably prefer to accommodate that
Page 9540
1 arrangement rather than the other one.
2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, so it's important that we
3 get on with the evidence.
4 MR. NICE: Yes.
5 JUDGE MAY: Despite these difficulties.
6 MR. NICE: The last week and the next week
7 have proved to be quite extraordinarily difficult.
8 There have been earlier problems that have had a
9 knock-on effect of changes in the Trial Chamber's
10 timetable and so on.
11 JUDGE MAY: And there will be further?
12 MR. NICE: There will be further ones like
13 that.
14 JUDGE MAY: I can tell you now that because
15 of the requirements of another case, we shall not be
16 sitting in the afternoons of the 24th and 25th, so that
17 week will be shortened.
18 MR. NICE: Thank you for that.
19 Incidentally, I know that this witness would
20 be available this afternoon. I think we raise that
21 because if yesterday's position had continued, that
22 might have been a possibility, but I can recognise that
23 that will no longer be a possibility.
24 JUDGE MAY: It's not, because of the
25 requirements of the other case.
Page 9541
1 MR. NICE: Of course.
2 I think I've said before, the arrangement of
3 witnesses is extremely difficult, and we are working
4 flat out to find people at all times, and this is I
5 think the first time we have run into a serious block.
6 But unless my discussions with the colonel are going to
7 have any more results than Mr. Scott's, and I can see
8 no reason to believe that's likely to be the case, it
9 looks as though we are out of witnesses for tomorrow.
10 There's the argument about the one dead
11 witness; that in itself I don't think will take much
12 longer to argue, because it's been argued substantially
13 already, and there is a limited amount of outstanding
14 discussion; and in any event, that argument, although
15 it can be self-contained, has a connection with some
16 evidence yet to come.
17 For example -- let me just explain that. The
18 evidence that we seek to adduce relates to a sighting
19 of Kordic on the night before the attack in Donje
20 Veceriska. There is evidence of another witness
21 dealing in some detail with earlier sightings of
22 Mr. Kordic at the same place -- not on that particular
23 night, but going to show a pattern of visits. And of
24 course that would be either corroborative material or
25 similar-fact material, or material of some weight, to
Page 9542
1 support the evidence that will be coming from the
2 statement of the deceased, so that even arguing about
3 it might not lead to its ultimate resolution because
4 the Chamber might prefer to make a resolution of that
5 issue after hearing the evidence of the other visits to
6 Donje Veceriska.
7 JUDGE MAY: It would seem sensible to leave
8 that argument until that evidence has been heard.
9 Very well. How long do you want, as it were,
10 to find out?
11 MR. NICE: If you could give me about ten
12 minutes, I'll go and speak to the man directly.
13 JUDGE MAY: What we shall do is to adjourn,
14 and if you find that you can call the witness tomorrow,
15 will you kindly let us have word by quarter past 1?
16 MR. NICE: Certainly.
17 JUDGE MAY: Otherwise this matter is
18 adjourned until Monday morning.
19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: What do you aim for Monday
20 morning? What is the programme?
21 MR. NICE: Personally, I shall be here on
22 Monday morning, but the balance of next week I have to
23 attend on the other Chamber for another trial. But on
24 Monday morning it's going to be, I hope, a man called
25 Carter, and I think he is now definitely arriving, and
Page 9543
1 the alternative is it will be Brigadier -- or he may
2 now be General Duncan. But I think he is probably
3 going to come next.
4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: If you have the summary
5 ready before the end of this week?
6 MR. NICE: Any summaries that are prepared
7 will be made available.
8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: Okay.
9 MR. NICE: But the problem, again -- I'm
10 running into an objection, I think, or a comment.
11 MR. SAYERS: Just a few brief comments,
12 Mr. President. First, we have some matters of a legal
13 nature that we wanted to raise with the Trial Chamber,
14 and I had thought that they were going to be addressed
15 tomorrow. I would not anticipate that they would take
16 more than an hour in total.
17 With respect to the second matter regarding
18 the deceased witness, that's an issue which has been
19 lying fallow for a long time. And we've heard for the
20 first time today that apparently the theory is that
21 this is going to -- even though there are no
22 corroborative witnesses for this particular piece of
23 evidence, there is going to be evidence of a consistent
24 pattern of conduct, supposedly. Well, I would suggest
25 that that's subject to Rule 93 concerns, Rule 93(b)
Page 9544
1 concerns, and I do not believe any disclosures of an
2 allegation of such a consistent pattern of conduct have
3 been made to us.
4 JUDGE MAY: What are the matters you want to
5 raise? Just give me an idea in a few words.
6 MR. SAYERS: Off the top of my head, there
7 was an issue relating to the current protective order,
8 which perhaps needs to be expanded. There's an issue
9 related to the confidential witnesses that have been
10 brought before the Chamber so far who have -- for whom
11 protections have been sought, and only to recant the
12 necessity of those protections when they actually take
13 the stand. And I'm sure that the Trial Chamber can
14 appreciate the extremely difficult position in which
15 that puts the Defence.
16 There are also some other relatively discreet
17 issues. I thought we were going to address the issue
18 of dead witnesses generally, Your Honour, and that
19 raises the Aleksovski appeal decision concerns. I
20 don't believe that it's a particularly complicated
21 legal argument, maybe Mr. Nice disagrees, but it's
22 something that should be addressed sooner rather than
23 later. Things of that variety.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE MAY: Well, we will sit to hear the
Page 9545
1 matters that the Defence wish to raise, but it may well
2 be that we will not hear the argument about the dead
3 witnesses for the reasons which Mr. Nice has already
4 alluded to. Yes.
5 MR. NICE: Well, if we are going to sit
6 tomorrow in any event, I --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel,
8 please.
9 MR. NICE: If he is available, I take it the
10 Chamber would rather have evidence tomorrow. I'll
11 communicate with somebody in the appropriate department
12 and let you know one way or the other what the position
13 is.
14 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Tomorrow morning.
15 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 1.08
16 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday, the
17 5th day of November, 1999, at 9.30 a.m.
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