1 Friday, 27 February 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone, I say especially today to

7 the technicians.

8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

10 Momcilo Krajisnik.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12 I spoke a special welcome to the technicians because of their

13 efforts to restore LiveNote, and it's working well for everyone, apart

14 from the Bench, who has no LiveNote at the moment. So if we would need to

15 scroll back, we have to seek the assistance of the registrar and/or the

16 legal officer.

17 Mr. Tieger, are you ready to continue the cross-examination?

18 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Treanor, as I said before, it looks already like

20 a routine when I remind you that you're still bound by the solemn

21 declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony, but I

22 immediately add that this is, of course, not a routine matter.

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

25 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

1 WITNESS: PATRICK TREANOR [Resumed]

2 Examined by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

3 Q. Mr. Treanor, the Court has set aside additional time today in an

4 effort to maximise the possibility of completing your

5 examination-in-chief. Toward that end, I will not be directing your

6 attention to all the documents that you have selected, nor necessarily all

7 of the highlights within those documents. And in addition, I hope we can

8 move as quickly as possible through such documents as government sessions.

9 And finally, I would ask, as I did yesterday, and as you did yesterday, to

10 try to keep your answers as concise as possible.

11 If we could turn first, then, to tab 136, the minutes of a meeting

12 of 15 May 1992 of the National Security Council and the government --

13 well, it says: "And the Serbian Republic of BH." That document is on

14 screen. Mr. Treanor, you've highlighted two sentences that appear in the

15 lower half of the first page: "It was agreed to maintain and establish

16 the positions in Sarajevo, and to defend the occupied territory, which is

17 a priority task. It has been agreed to provide a war report on a daily

18 basis."

19 A. Yes, that's correct. I think that's fairly self-explanatory. I'd

20 just like to point out, however, that I believe this is the last record we

21 have of a session of the National Security Council --

22 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, Your Honour, to interrupt, but there appears

23 to be a problem. Mr. Krajisnik is not getting the translation.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's see whether Mr. Krajisnik is on the right

25 channel.

1 Mr. Krajisnik, did you miss everything that was said until now, or

2 did you by mistake change channels?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I didn't understand

4 anything you were saying, but I have channel 6 here, in which I'm

5 receiving Serbian interpretation. However, I'm not getting any

6 interpretation. All right. My apologies.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Krajisnik, since you missed not many words,

8 but at least some words, I think we just started with the examination, at

9 least the substance of the examination. All the rest that was spoken this

10 morning was about practical matters. But, Ms. Loukas, I take it that

11 there's no need to consult with your client? He missed --

12 MS. LOUKAS: No, there isn't.

13 JUDGE ORIE: He missed five minutes. Okay. Then we proceed.

14 MR. TIEGER:

15 Q. Mr. Treanor, you were just explaining that you believe this was

16 the last record of the -- that you have of the session of the National

17 Security Council.

18 A. Well, it is the last record that we have of a session of the

19 National Security Council. After this date, we have independent minutes

20 of meetings of the government, and we have no more record of any sessions

21 of the National Security Council. It would therefore appear that after

22 this date, the National Security Council lapsed. I would remind the Court

23 that the expanded Presidency of three members was formed three days

24 before. We didn't see the minutes of the first session of that body, but

25 at that body were present not only the three members of the Presidency,

1 that is, Dr. Karadzic and Dr. Koljevic and Plavsic, but also Mr. Krajisnik

2 and Mr. Djeric. Those five individuals formed the core, as it were, of

3 the National Security Council. So they seemed to be meeting independently

4 under a different title. I would also point out that there's a

5 handwritten notation indicating that these are the minutes of the 10th

6 Session, presumably 10th Joint Session of the National Security Council

7 and the government. This is in fact a record of the 12th meeting that we

8 know of, indicating that the -- there's some confusion in the enumeration

9 and that the total number of sessions that were held of this body is not

10 precisely known to us.

11 Q. If we could turn next to tab 137, the minutes of a meeting of

12 the --

13 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, before we do that -- oh, okay. I think

14 Mr. Krajisnik has having some difficulty finding that particular document

15 that we were just dealing with. But he's okay. All right.

16 JUDGE ORIE: You by now have found the relevant document,

17 Mr. Krajisnik?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At the beginning, I didn't know

19 exactly which binder the document was in, and that's why I couldn't find

20 the document. My apologies to the Chamber.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

22 MR. TIEGER:

23 Q. On screen now are the minutes of a meeting of the government of

24 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, held on 18 May 1992. Turn

25 to page 2 of that document. You've highlighted two portions, the first a

1 sentence which is enumerated number 4: "Proposing solutions for giving

2 aid, i.e., 30 temporary loans to Crisis Staff." And the second at the

3 bottom under AD-2: "It was concluded that aid be given to the Novo

4 Sarajevo and Hadzici Crisis Staffs and that the amount of aid be

5 determined according to the situation in these municipalities."

6 A. Yes. I think that's self-explanatory and I'd just like to point

7 out that this is the -- a session only of the government. From this point

8 on we see the government meeting separately, no longer with the National

9 Security Council.

10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, turning to tab 138. That contains a

11 meeting of May 21st, 1992. It's the minutes of a meeting of the

12 government of the Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Turning to

13 page 2, Mr. Treanor, you've highlighted two sentences in the middle of the

14 page. I'm sorry. That would be page 3, Your Honours.

15 Q. The first reads: "It is agreed that a committee for placing the

16 refugees into other areas should be formed." The second: "With regards

17 to this, it was emphasised that in dialogue with Serbia, it should be

18 insisted that the Serb refugees from Serbia returned and settled in

19 republics the Muslims had left from."

20 A. Yes, that's correct. The wording is a bit peculiar. However, it

21 does reflect the language used in the original. I can only point out that

22 there is a white space in the original between the words "in"

23 and "republics." It's possible that the word "portions" or "parts,"

24 something like that, was supposed to be in there. But in any case, the

25 reference seems to be to Serbs who had left BH to go to Serbia, and the

1 idea being to return them to the Bosnian Serb Republic, to live in areas

2 that had been abandoned by Muslims. Let me put it another way: In which

3 Muslims were no longer living.

4 Q. Can we turn next to tab 142, the minutes of a meeting of the

5 Presidency on 31 May 1992. And this document, Mr. Treanor, you've

6 highlighted the first paragraph, which states that: "On 31 May 1992, the

7 2nd Session of the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina was held." And then indicates the attendance by members of

9 the Presidency, Dr. Karadzic, Dr. Plavsic, and Dr. Koljevic, and the

10 president of the Assembly of Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

11 Momcilo Krajisnik." And you've highlighted the last sentence of the

12 minutes, and I should indicate for the record the minutes only contain

13 four short paragraphs. This is the fourth: "After the discussion, the

14 Presidency adopted the decision on the establishment of war presidencies

15 in municipalities during war or an imminent threat of war."

16 A. Yes. This document is notable for several reasons. First of all,

17 I would point out that the indication that this is the 2nd Session of the

18 Presidency is inserted by hand. It is indeed the record -- it is indeed

19 the second session for which we have a record. The first session took

20 place on the 12th of May. We did not see that, but again, Mr. Krajisnik

21 was there, and at that session, the main item of business was to elect

22 Dr. Karadzic the president of the Presidency, being elected to that

23 position by his two colleagues on the Presidency. So whether, in fact,

24 there was no intervening session between the 12th and the 31st, I can't

25 say definitely. As we saw, there was a meeting of the National Security

1 Council on the 15th.

2 The enumeration of those present is a little confusing. It refers

3 to members of the Presidency. In the original, Dr. Radovan Karadzic,

4 Dr. Biljana Plavsic, Dr. Nikola Koljevic, and presidents of the Assembly

5 of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik.

6 That could lead one to believe that Mr. Krajisnik was being included among

7 the members. This is important in connection with the decision which is

8 recorded in the last paragraph of this document, namely, the decision on

9 the establishment of war presidencies in municipalities during war or in

10 imminent threat of war. I think we're about to see that document. I will

11 continue my discussion in connection with that.

12 Q. And the document to which Mr. Treanor refers is contained behind

13 tab 143 entitled, "Decision on the formation of war presidencies in

14 municipalities in times of war or the immediate threat of war."

15 Highlighted on the first page of that document is Article 4, which

16 indicates that: "The Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina shall appoint the Republic's representative who shall give

18 professional and other assistance to war presidencies."

19 A. I'd also call attention to Article 5 as a substantive matter here,

20 which provides that the war presidencies, when they're established, will

21 in effect replace the Crisis Staffs, which had been operating. So much

22 for the substantive nature of this document. If we could go back to the

23 very beginning of the document and magnify the first paragraph right

24 under 168.

25 As the Court can see, this decision was adopted by the Presidency

1 on the basis of Article 5, paragraph 6 and 7 of the Constitutional Law on

2 the implementation of the constitution. This decision, in fact, bears the

3 date of the 31st of May, and we have seen in the minutes of the Presidency

4 session of that day a reflection of the fact that the Presidency did in

5 fact adopt this decision on that day. However, the provisions under which

6 it has been adopted -- let me rephrase that. The enactment of the

7 provisions under which this decision has been adopted, that is, Article 5,

8 paragraph 6 and 7, have not yet appeared in the official record. I think

9 we're about to see that document.

10 Q. That would be tab 144, Your Honour. The document on screen at the

11 moment is the Law on amending the constitutional law for implementing the

12 constitution of the Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Article 1 is

13 highlighted.

14 A. I would draw attention, first of all, to the very first paragraph,

15 or the top of the document, even above that, the date, as we can see, the

16 date of the gazette in which this decision was published is the 1st of

17 June. The previous decision, by the way, was published in the gazette on

18 the 8th of June, so it's a different edition of the gazette and a prior

19 edition of the gazette. Now if we could go to the very bottom of the

20 document. Could we have the next page?

21 Yes. We can see the date here of this decision as the 2nd of

22 June, which is obviously one day later than the date of publication, as

23 stated in the gazette. Now if we can return to the body of the document,

24 Article 1.

25 We can see in the second part of that article, where it

1 says: "After paragraph 5, new paragraphs 6 and 7 are added." These are

2 new paragraphs to Article 5 of the constitutional law. And this is the

3 provision which gives the Presidency the authority during a state of war

4 to establish war presidencies in the municipalities, and these are the

5 provisions on the basis of which the decision of the 31st of May was made,

6 and made on the 31st of May. To remind the Court, the title of that

7 document referred to the establishment of war presidencies in

8 municipalities during an imminent threat of war or a state of war. It

9 would appear from the fact that the decision on this matter was in fact

10 adopted on the 31st of May, that the Presidency considered that the

11 conditions set by this amendment were in fact present and they therefore

12 adopted the decision, which would seem to leave open the possibility that

13 there was an error in the drafting here and that it should read: During

14 an imminent threat of war or a state of war, the Presidency may decide ...

15 I would also point out that the number of this document, which is

16 given at the bottom of the document, just above the date, is 03-509/92,

17 whereas the number of the decision on the establishment of the war

18 presidencies is 0 -- 03-512. It would appear that this amendment to the

19 constitutional law was adopted prior to the decision on the establishment

20 of war presidencies, which I think would be logical, since it forms the

21 basis for that decision. However, as the Court can see, there's confusion

22 in the dating and perhaps in the wording. The only other thing I can add

23 at this point in relation to that issue is that we do have an original

24 typed and signed copy of this law, a law which, by the way, was adopted by

25 the Presidency itself, and that copy contains the same features that we've

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1 mentioned here. That is, it has the same wording and it indeed does bear

2 the date of the 2nd of June and is signed by Dr. Karadzic.

3 Now I would draw the Court's attention to the first part of

4 Article 1, which states that: "During a state of war, the Presidency is

5 expanded with the following members: The president of the National

6 Assembly and the prime minister of the government."

7 Now, as we have seen, on the 31st of May, when the decision on the

8 war presidencies was adopted, Mr. Krajisnik was in fact present and could

9 be understood, from a reading of that document, to be included among the

10 members of the Presidency. On that day, as I say, the Presidency, on the

11 31st of May, obviously considered that the condition for adopting the

12 decision on war presidencies was present, which could lead one to conclude

13 that they also considered that the condition necessary for the expansion

14 of the Presidency to five members from three was also present, and that

15 therefore, as of the 31st of May, Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Djeric are also

16 members of the Presidency. This five-member Presidency would, as I

17 indicated earlier, contain the core members of the old National Security

18 Council.

19 Q. And do some of the subsequent documents, meetings of the

20 Presidency, contain explicit references to Mr. Krajisnik as a member of

21 the Presidency?

22 A. Yes. We will be seeing further documents which indicate precisely

23 that. I would also draw the Court's attention to Appendix 19 in our

24 report, which lists all the sessions of the Presidency of which we are

25 aware, and indicating which members were present from that tabulation, it

1 is apparent that Mr. Krajisnik attended every session of the Presidency

2 for the rest of the year that we have a record of. It's on page 175 of

3 the report. No, it's not. That's the National Security Council. It's on

4 page 186 of the report, Appendix 25.

5 From that tabulation, it's clear that Mr. Krajisnik was the only

6 member of the Presidency that attended every session, of which we are

7 aware, and in fact on at least one occasion, he chaired a session, in the

8 absence of Dr. Karadzic.

9 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I disrupted our chronology slightly.

10 I'd like to return to the 27th of May, 1992, and tab 32 of the intercept

11 binder.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Loukas.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to this, that last

14 question, and I just want to put a marker here. I think it's

15 inappropriate for Mr. Tieger to be asking leading questions in such a

16 contentious area, and I'd be objecting to any further leading in this

17 area.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the presence of Mr. Krajisnik during

19 meetings? Is that -- because the question was: "Do some of the

20 subsequent documents, meetings of the Presidency, contain explicit

21 reference to Mr. Krajisnik as a member --"

22 MS. LOUKAS: "As a member of the Presidency," that's correct.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Is the presence of Mr. Krajisnik during the meetings

24 of the Presidency also a contentious issue?

25 MS. LOUKAS: No. The --

1 JUDGE ORIE: Just his quality as a member of the Presidency.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Quite, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear, I take it, Mr. Tieger.

4 MR. TIEGER: Precisely, Your Honour. First of all, I don't

5 consider that a leading question. It can be answered yes or no. And

6 second, it was only a reference to the -- whether or not the particular

7 document contained language to that effect.

8 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, the document speaks about -- and

9 the answer of the witness was about attendance, whether Mr. Krajisnik was

10 present. I do understand that it's not his presence during meetings, but

11 whether he formally was a member of the Presidency. I do understand that

12 that's a contentious issue. So if that comes up again, I would say then

13 would you please ask the witness in a non-leading way in that specific

14 respect.

15 MR. TIEGER: I will certainly follow the Court's guidance on that,

16 Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

18 MR. TIEGER:

19 Q. Tab 32 of the intercept binder is next as I indicated. I

20 momentarily overlooked that. That is a conversation between Mr. Krajisnik

21 and General Mladic.

22 JUDGE ORIE: But before doing so, may I just ask one question to

23 you, Ms. Loukas, in order to know for sure what the position of the

24 Defence is. Under tab 144, we see a text which is a law on amending

25 constitutional law for implementing the constitution of the Republic of

1 Bosnia and Herzegovina. In Article 1, it says: "During a state of war,

2 the Presidency is expanded with the following members." Is it that -- is

3 the contentious issue that there was a state of war, or is the contentious

4 issue that this article would for other reasons not apply? I'm just

5 trying to find out what the position of the Defence is. Was there no

6 state of war or just this article for other reasons does not apply?

7 What's your position in this respect?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

9 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, sorry. In fact, Your Honour, it's a number of

10 bases, and including this question of a state of war. But of course, at

11 this stage, I would not be wanting to enumerate all of the bases.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do we find them in the pre-trial brief or -- I

13 mean, if -- would you ask questions to the witness in cross-examination or

14 not? Because otherwise, it becomes a bit of a trial by surprise that --

15 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, indeed, Your Honour. I mean, the whole point, of

16 course, is not trial by ambush by the Prosecution or anybody, but all I am

17 saying is of course there will be questions directed to these issues,

18 clearly, during cross-examination.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I take it that under Rule 90(H), the

20 position of the Defence will then be clear, because you have to put to the

21 witness --

22 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, indeed, Your Honour. Of course, that refers, of

23 course, to Your Honour's referring to the inclusion within the Rules of

24 Brown and Dunne [phoen] and the putting of the case and those aspects.

25 There's no question, of course, Your Honour, that those matters will be

1 put.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then we might need some patience until early April,

3 but that's clear.

4 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 MR. TIEGER: If we can now play the intercept, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 [Intercept played]

8 MR. TIEGER:

9 Q. Mr. Treanor.

10 A. Well, here we see Mr. Krajisnik dealing directly with General

11 Mladic on certain issues, in particular, coordinating with the Ministry of

12 Internal Affairs on behalf of General Mladic. The references to Tolimir

13 and Manojlo are to two of the high-ranking officers on General Mladic's

14 staff. There's a reference to Momo at a couple of points. It's possible

15 that that could be a reference to Mr. Mandic, who we've met before.

16 Q. If we could turn to tab 145, and then subsequently, tab 146, the

17 Defence Act, and then subsequently, the Law on the Army. If we could just

18 quickly look at those. Tab 146, the Defence Act, on page 2. I'm sorry.

19 That's a misleading reference, Your Honours, I apologise. Tab 145 is the

20 Defence Act.

21 At page 2 you highlighted Article 7, specifically, numbers 2, 3,

22 and 6 of Article 7, which begins: "As part of organising preparations for

23 defence, the president of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

24 shall..." And 2, 3, and 4 indicate: "Proclaim a state of emergency,

25 imminent threat of war and war, order general and partial mobilisation."

1 3 is: "Command and control of the army both in peacetime and war." 6

2 is: "Define the basis for the organisation and size of the police force,

3 issue orders for the deployment of the police in time of war," and it

4 continues to the end of that number 6.

5 A. Yes. These are provisions in this new law which was adopted by

6 the Presidency on the 1st of June and published in the gazette on that

7 same day. Emphasising here are provisions of that law that relate to the

8 powers of the president of the republic. The Court will notice the

9 reference to proclaiming a state of emergency, imminent threat of war, and

10 war.

11 The previous enactments, including the constitution and other

12 legislation, had not specified who would perform this function. That

13 could be because at the time the original documents were adopted on the

14 28th of February, it was foreseen that the republic would be part of the

15 federal Yugoslav state, whose central federal organs would have the

16 responsibility of making such declarations. As we did see, however, on

17 the 15th of April, the acting presidents at the proposal of the National

18 Security Council did in fact declare an imminent threat of war in the

19 Bosnian Serb Republic.

20 Q. The law on the army is contained and behind tab 146. And on

21 page 24 of that document.

22 A. Yes. This law is adopted by the Presidency on the same day and

23 contains a large number of provisions relating to the authority of the

24 president in various military matters, including command and control and

25 discipline.

1 Q. And for the record, you've highlighted Article 173, Article 174,

2 and at the bottom of the page, 175 continuing on to the next page, the

3 first three paragraphs of the next page.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. If we could turn next to tab 147, the minutes from the government

6 meeting of the Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina held on June 1

7 1992. You have highlighted on the first page item number 1: "The

8 government president has informed government members about the talks that

9 took place at the joint meeting of Serbian Republic of BiH Presidency,

10 Serbian Republic of BiH National Assembly chairman, Serbian Republic

11 government president and Serbian Republic of BiH army Main Staff

12 commander."

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Moving on to tab 150. Your Honour, tab 150 contains the minutes

15 from a government session held on 5 June 1992. And if we turn to page 2.

16 Mr. Treanor, you've highlighted item number 1: "The government president

17 has informed the government about the current issues of security situation

18 in the republic. The information is based on the daily reports from the

19 Ministry of the Interior."

20 A. Yes, that's correct. This excerpt and the one from the previous

21 meeting that we saw would indicate, among other things, that the president

22 of the government was, at the very least, privy to information that was

23 coming into the Presidency.

24 Q. If we could turn next to tab 154, the meeting -- the minutes of a

25 session of the government held on 9 June 1992. And if we could turn to

1 page 2 of that document. Mr. Treanor, you've highlighted the second and

2 third paragraphs of that page, the first of which begins: "The government

3 has concluded that treatment and exchange of prisoners is a responsible

4 and complex issue," and concludes: "Those instructions --" well, to

5 clarify that, it goes on to talk about the preparation of instructions by

6 the -- by certain organs, which would incorporate both domestic and

7 international rules, and concludes: "Those instructions would be

8 translated into English and sent to appropriate international bodies and

9 especially to International Red Cross." And you've highlighted the

10 paragraph thereafter, which reads: "Passing of these instructions and our

11 commitment to legality and humanity by our republic should be used in

12 anti-propaganda and propaganda activities in Yugoslavia and abroad."

13 A. Yes. This is one of many references which occur in the government

14 sessions to the issue of prisoners.

15 Q. If we could turn next to tab 155, which is headed, "Minutes of the

16 4th expanded meeting of the War Presidency of the Serbian Republic of

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina of 9 June 1992." And in that document,

18 Mr. Treanor, you've highlighted the first three paragraphs, and then items

19 3, 4, 7, and 11 of the conclusions following a detailed discussion.

20 A. Yes. And I would call the Court's attention to the fact that in

21 this document, as in one of the previous documents we've seen, the

22 number 4 for the enumeration of the session has been inserted by hand.

23 And I would also call the Court's attention to the reference to the

24 expanded meeting of the War Presidency of the Serbian Republic and to the

25 list of attendees.

1 Q. Paragraph 1, for the record, you've highlighted, is that list of

2 attendees. Paragraph 2 indicates that General Mladic briefed the

3 Presidency in detail about the overall situation in the Serbian army, and

4 he figures on the quantities of weapons, ammunition, spare parts, reserves

5 of oil and oil products, food and other resources. And paragraph 3

6 indicates that General Gvero reported on the situation in the area of the

7 Banja Luka Corps.

8 A. Yes. This was a meeting that was dominated by military affairs.

9 Q. And for the record, the enumerated conclusions that you

10 highlighted are number 3, that the heavy artillery fire in the town be

11 halted. Number 4, that a strong unit from Krajina be transferred to

12 assist in fighting around Sarajevo. Number 7, that talks be arranged

13 between the SBH delegation and the Presidency and the General Staff of the

14 Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia, and number 11, instruct members of the

15 Serbian army to abide by Geneva Conventions in their treatment of

16 prisoners of war.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. If we could turn to tab 156. Tab 156 contains the minutes --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

20 MR. TIEGER: Sorry.

21 Q. Tab 156 contains the minutes of a government meeting of the Serb

22 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina held on 10 June 1992. On page 2,

23 Mr. Treanor, you've highlighted the first full paragraph. Sorry, page 3,

24 which indicates that: "The Ministry of Justice should make a report about

25 prisoners. This report should pay attention on treatment of civilian

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1 population, prisoners of war, accommodation, food, et cetera. The report

2 would be considered by the government, after which it would be submitted

3 to the Presidency of the republic."

4 A. Yes. Here again we see reference to discussion of the issue of

5 prisoners. And the minister of justice, to remind the Court at this

6 point, is Momcilo Mandic.

7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, turning next to tab 157.

8 Q. Tab 157 contains the minutes of the 5th Session of the Presidency

9 of the Serbian Republic of BH held during an imminent threat of war on 10

10 June 1992. That is the heading.

11 And Mr. Treanor, on this first page, you've highlighted the first

12 and second paragraphs. The first conclusion adopted is the -- and the

13 eighth conclusion.

14 A. Yes. Here we see a variety of decisions adopted at the meeting.

15 The decision referred to in point 8 is a decision which, in effect,

16 replaces the previous decision that we discussed relating to the war

17 presidencies.

18 Q. And you refer to decision -- conclusion 8, the first decision

19 referred to is a decision on the establishment of the first Serbian elite

20 units.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And if we could turn to page 2. You've also highlighted the name

23 of Dr. Branko Djeric, and under his name, the portion: "To report to the

24 government on detainees and propose measures."

25 A. Yes. Here we see another reference to the issue of prisoners.

1 Q. And in that connection, can we turn, please, to tabs 159 and 160.

2 Tab 159 contains instructions on the treatment of captured persons, and

3 tab 160 contains an order on applying the international laws of war in the

4 army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

5 A. Yes. The first document is in order -- an order, yes, issued by

6 the Presidency and signed by Dr. Karadzic, as president of the Presidency.

7 It is dated in the gazette the 13th of May. However, in the original

8 signed copy which we have in this case, there is a difference in the

9 dating, and in the signed copy the date is given as the 13th of June.

10 This order was in fact published in the gazette on the 13th of June,

11 together with another document which we may be seeing on the same issue,

12 instructions issued by Colonel Subotic, as minister of defence, and that

13 document also bears the date of the 13th of June. And in the preamble to

14 that document, the instructions, it refers to the order of the Presidency

15 of the 13th of June. So I'm certain that the actual date of this order

16 signed by Dr. Karadzic should be the 13th of June rather than the 13th of

17 May, as printed in the gazette.

18 Q. If we could turn next to tab 165, Your Honours. This is a session

19 of the Presidency held on 17 June 1992. And it is headed, "Minutes of the

20 8th Session of the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of BH held during an

21 imminent threat of war on 17 June 1992." You've highlighted the list of

22 attendees. The second paragraph of the document, which states that: "The

23 Presidency was briefed on the situation on the front, particularly in

24 Ilijas and Hadzici, where enemy forces viciously attacked our army

25 positions the day before and once against, as many times before, violated

1 the truce."

2 You've highlighted number 3: "That the government draft decision

3 on the establishment of a state documentation centre which will gather all

4 genuine documents on crimes committed against the Serbian people during

5 this war."

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And number 7, the conclusion that: "Two state delegations be

8 formed to visit Eastern Herzegovina and Bijeljina as soon as possible,"

9 followed by the composition of the delegations.

10 A. Yes. And I would also call the Court's attention here to the fact

11 which I won't mention from here on in, unless there's a change, that with

12 the Presidency session, the number indicating the session has been

13 inserted by hand.

14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, turning next to tab 169, which contain

15 minutes entitled, "Minutes of the 12th Session of the Presidency of the

16 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina held during an imminent threat

17 of war on 27 June 1992."

18 JUDGE ORIE: I've got the 11th Session, Mr. Tieger.

19 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Your Honour. Wrong document on

20 screen and I was reading off of that.

21 Q. This document contained in tab 169 is indeed the 11th session as

22 His Honour indicated headed, "Minutes of the 11th Session of the

23 Presidency of the Serbian Republic of BH held during an imminent threat of

24 war on 25 June 1992." The first page you've highlighted a list of

25 attendees, and in the second page you have highlighted item D that:

1 "Working bodies of the Presidency be set up at the following session and

2 that authority and responsibilities be precisely divided among the members

3 of the Presidency."

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. If we could turn next to tab 171. This is the document that was

6 on screen a moment ago, minutes of the 12th Session of the Presidency of

7 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina held during an imminent

8 threat of war on 27 June 1992. Mr. Treanor, you've highlighted the list

9 of attendees and the first three paragraphs after -- or of item number 3,

10 which indicate that the Main Staff of the army of the Serbian Republic of

11 BH is ordered to cease all artillery and infantry operations in the suburb

12 of Dobrinja immediately." The order -- the next paragraph indicates

13 that: "The order is given to dig in and move from offensive to defensive

14 positions. The Main Staff is also warned in the order of the political

15 consequences if this order is neglected."

16 And the final highlighted paragraph or sentence is that: "Fire

17 should be opened only for necessary defence and only after informing the

18 Presidency, the Supreme Command, and UNPROFOR, as mediators in the action

19 of opening the airport."

20 A. Yes. And I'd like to point out in connection with this set of

21 minutes and the previous set of minutes and perhaps some other ones we're

22 going to see that the number of the session has been typed in in the

23 original. However, the second numeral, in this case, a 2, has been

24 inserted or written over what was originally there in hand.

25 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, if we could move next to tab 172.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

2 MR. TIEGER:

3 Q. Tab 172 contains the minutes of the 14th Session of the Presidency

4 of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina held during an imminent

5 threat of war on 3 July 1992. You've highlighted, Mr. Treanor, the

6 attendees of that session.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then you've highlighted item 2.

9 A. Yes. Here we see the Presidency dealing with matters relating to

10 the Ministry of Internal Affairs. There is, in fact, a written order by

11 the Presidency, a copy of which we possess, signed by Dr. Karadzic,

12 relating to this particular matter of the paramilitary units in Gacko and

13 Nevesinje.

14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, if we could turn next to tab 173, which

15 is the document contained at 173 is headed, "Minutes of the 36th Session

16 of the Serb Republic of BH government held on the 4th of July, 1992."

17 Q. Mr. Treanor, you've highlighted on page 2 of that document item

18 number 1.

19 A. Yes. These type of numbers refer to the number of the item on the

20 agenda.

21 Q. And you've highlighted the first two sentences, or first full

22 paragraph of that agenda item, which indicate that: "The minutes of the

23 joint session of the Serb Republic of BH Presidency and Serb Republic of

24 BH government held on the 1st of July, 1992 has been adopted in its

25 proposed version." And it goes on to note that: "It has been concluded

1 that the minutes be submitted to the members of the Presidency and the

2 Serb Republic of BH Army Main Staff."

3 A. Yes. Now, if I'm not mistaken, this is a session which we do not

4 have any other record of, that is, the session that's referred to here on

5 the 1st of July.

6 Q. If we could turn next to page 4. You've highlighted agenda item

7 number 8, which appears at the bottom of the page and continues on to the

8 next page.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. This agenda item indicates that: "The question has been raised

11 whether there are agreed criteria regarding the moving out of the Muslims

12 [sic] population from the territory of the Serb Republic of BH." And

13 continues: "It has been concluded that the government has not until now

14 had a point of view on this matter. The Ministry of the Interior is

15 entrusted with preparing information on this issue that the government

16 would consider and take the appropriate standpoint."

17 A. Yes. And we are not in possession of any such information that

18 may have been produced by the Ministry of Internal Affairs on that matter.

19 Q. Turning to tab 174. That portion of the binder contains a

20 document headed, "Minutes of the 15th Session of the Presidency of the

21 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina held during an imminent threat

22 of war." Mr. Treanor, you've highlighted the list of attendees, agenda

23 item number 1, which is the question of Dr. Koljevic's participation in

24 the work of the Presidency, and agenda item number 4, division of the

25 tasks in the Presidency.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. We now see on screen, on page 2, a highlighted portion reflecting

3 Dr. Karadzic's remarks. Is that part of the discussion --

4 A. Yes. Dr. Koljevic was expressing some dissatisfaction with the

5 way things had been going with the work of the Presidency, and

6 Dr. Karadzic is responding to that here.

7 Q. The highlighted portion reads: "It was important that we existed,

8 even if we did nothing, because the Presidency was a symbol of the

9 statehood of the Serbian Republic of BH, said Dr. Karadzic."

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And can you provide us with some concise explanation or summary of

12 the discussion that surrounded Dr. -- the issue of Dr. Koljevic's

13 concerns, or is that sufficiently reflected in the document itself?

14 A. Well, I think that's reflected in the document. He was

15 contemplating, in fact, resigning at this point, but he was dissuaded from

16 doing so.

17 Q. Mr. Treanor, on page 3, you've highlighted items 4 and 5, which

18 refer to the division of tasks.

19 A. Yes. We saw this referred to in an earlier session, and here we

20 see division of tasks within the Presidency, with particular fields of

21 activity being assigned to, as I said, what I believe to be the five

22 members of the Presidency at this point. It further stipulates whenever a

23 member of the Presidency is absent, he shall be replaced by a member

24 present at the session.

25 MR. TIEGER: For the record, item number 4 addresses the division

1 of tasks among members of the Presidency. Item number 5 indicates

2 that: "The following was concluded, that a platform for talks with the

3 leadership of Serbia be prepared by the government of SBH; and that a

4 two-stage meeting with state and political leadership of the Republic of

5 Serbia be arranged. The first meeting should be with Slobodan Milosevic

6 and on the second day, it would be expanded to include the government of

7 the Republic of Serbia." And finally, that: "Dr. Karadzic and Momcilo

8 Krajisnik were given responsibility for the first meeting."

9 A. Yes. If I could just comment on the last paragraph, item 4. I

10 think what the meaning of that is, is as follows: That if there's an

11 issue that comes up in relation to one of the areas of responsibility

12 which have been apportioned among the members of the Presidency and that

13 particular member is not present to deal with that issue, then any other

14 member of the Presidency who is present at the seat of the Presidency can

15 deal with it. The Presidency, according to the decision way back in May,

16 when the three-member Presidency was formed, was to have adopted rules of

17 procedure for its own operation. However, we are in possession of no such

18 rules of procedure, as far as we know, formal rules of procedure were

19 never adopted. This is as close as we come to seeing how the internal

20 workings of the Presidency were supposed to function, as far as the

21 Presidency itself was concerned. That is, what they saw as the way to

22 handle matters within the Presidency.

23 Q. If I could direct the Chamber's attention and Mr. Treanor's

24 attention to tab number 176, which contains a document entitled, "Minutes

25 of the 38th Session of the Serb Republic of BH government held on 11 July

1 1992." And Mr. Treanor, if I could direct your attention to page 6, on

2 which you've highlighted number 3.

3 A. Yes. This is discussion under agenda item number 10, which is

4 current questions.

5 Q. The highlighted portion refers to: "The formation of a work group

6 comprised of the Government Deputy Prime Minister, Milan Trbojevic, and

7 the representatives of the Ministry of Defence, Ministry of Justice, and

8 Ministry of Health, Work, Welfare and Family, to prepare a regulation

9 (platform) on the treatment of Muslims and other nations on the territory

10 of the Serb Republic of BH. In accordance with this, the constitutional

11 rights and obligations, international conventions on civil rights, and

12 freedom that oblige us have to be taken into consideration."

13 And the next sentence is: "A larger debate would have to be held

14 on the proposed document exclusively at the session of the Assembly of the

15 Serb Nation of BH."

16 A. Yes. This is one of the few if not the only reference we see to

17 this particular issue in the minutes of government sessions, or indeed

18 Presidency sessions.

19 Q. If we could turn to tab 178. This is a Presidency session held on

20 13 July 1992. Again, the first portion of that document highlighted by

21 Mr. Treanor is the list of attendees, which include Dr. Karadzic,

22 Dr. Plavsic, Dr. Koljevic, Mr. Krajisnik, Dr. Djeric, General Mladic, and

23 General Milan Gvero. And in addition, on that first page, Mr. Treanor,

24 you've highlighted item 1 and the first three paragraphs of item 2.

25 A. Yes. Here we can see the Presidency dealing with international

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1 affairs and military affairs. This is one of the not very large number of

2 sessions at which General Mladic and members of his staff are indicated as

3 being present. That information is indicated in the appendix to the

4 report I referred to earlier. I believe that's Appendix 25.

5 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, because the next document will involve a

6 new binder, this might be an appropriate time for the break, and we can

7 avoid a disruption.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll adjourn until a quarter to 11.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

12 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Your Honours, if we could turn now to tab 181. That contains a

14 session of the Presidency held on 24 July 1992.

15 Q. Mr. Treanor, the minutes of that session are very brief. You've

16 highlighted them in their entirety. And they indicate that: "After the

17 briefing on the situation in the territory of the Serbian Republic of

18 Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Presidency adopted the following: 1. Decision

19 on the establishment and jurisdiction of military disciplinary courts; and

20 2. Decree on the appointment of the president and judges of military

21 disciplinary courts, military disciplinary prosecutors and their deputies

22 and secretaries of military disciplinary courts."

23 A. Yes. Here we see the Presidency dealing with issues of military

24 discipline.

25 Q. If we could turn now to tab 182, to the 17th Session of the RS

1 People's Assembly held from 24 July 1992 through 26 July 1992.

2 And before addressing the portions of the Assembly session that

3 you've highlighted, or those portions to which I'd like to draw your

4 attention, can you provide us with some brief backdrop to that session,

5 please.

6 A. Yes. This is the first session of the Assembly since the 12th of

7 May. Perhaps for that reason, had a very long agenda of legislative and

8 personnel items, many of which consisted of verification of decisions

9 taken by the Presidency in the interval. And the first item on the agenda

10 was a report by Dr. Karadzic on the political war situation in the

11 republic, followed by a report of the president of the government on the

12 work of the government up until that point.

13 Q. As indicated, Mr. Treanor, I'm going to direct your attention to a

14 few of the portions of that session that you've highlighted, the first of

15 which appears on page 2 and reflect the remarks of Mr. Krajisnik.

16 A. This is which page of the original?

17 Q. I'm sorry. That would be page 1 -- I'm sorry. Page 2 of the

18 B/C/S.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And depicted on screen now is page 2 of the English translation

21 and the two portions highlighted: "I am proud to have enjoyed your trust

22 in leading this Serb parliament and together with you, defending the Serb

23 people from extinction." And then a sentence that follows a few sentences

24 below: "Many of our people's brave sons and daughters have died on the

25 Serb Republic war front, in an imposed war, war against slavery,

1 humiliation, and extinction."

2 A. Yes. I don't think we need any commentary here.

3 Q. If we could turn to page 18 of the English, page 11 of the B/C/S.

4 And here you've highlighted a portion of the remarks by Dr. Karadzic, and

5 the highlighted portion reads: "We do not have any more reason to fight.

6 We have liberated almost everything that is ours. In final talks we could

7 even return some territories, villages, that do not belong to us."

8 A. Yes. In his address, Dr. Karadzic has been assuring the deputies

9 that the Bosnian Serbs were approaching the achievement of their goals.

10 Q. Turning to page 31 of the English, page 16 of the B/C/S.

11 A. Sorry. Which page of the B/C/S?

12 Q. I'm sorry. Page 31 of the B/C/S. To clarify, I originally

13 indicated it was page 16. It is page 31 of the B/C/S.

14 A. Yes. Here we have Dr. Milovan Milanovic speaking, who was not

15 only a deputy, but the vice-president of the Assembly.

16 Q. The highlighted portion reads: "We have a huge problem with

17 captured peoples of other nationalities. We have hundreds and thousands

18 of these prisoners."

19 A. I don't think we need any commentary here. Again, a reference to

20 the issue of prisoners.

21 Q. If I could direct your attention next, then, to page 49 of the

22 English, page 50 of the B/C/S, and in particular, I'd like to direct your

23 attention to the second highlighted portion of that page, containing the

24 remarks of Mr. Krajisnik. That highlighted portion reads: "Our goal must

25 be for the Serb people and the Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina to

1 reach their goal, their final goal, as one, the final goal being the

2 formation of a state and a plebiscite, because that is the task of this

3 people. If that is the aim, I must tell you right now that I do not care

4 who is going to lead the Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina today,

5 whether it will be Karadzic, Koljevic, Plavsic, Djeric, Krajisnik, or

6 whoever."

7 A. Yes. I don't think that requires any commentary either.

8 Q. And the persons mentioned, just to clarify, Dr. Karadzic,

9 Dr. Koljevic, Mrs. Plavsic, Dr. Djeric, Mr. Krajisnik, those persons

10 specifically identified?

11 A. Those would in fact be the members of the expanded Presidency.

12 Q. If I could direct your attention next to page 65 of the English,

13 page 67 of the B/C/S. You've highlighted portions of remarks by

14 Mr. Prstojevic.

15 A. Yes. Now, Mr. Prstojevic is from Ilidza. He was not one of the

16 deputies elected in 1990, and I'm not sure if he's speaking here as a

17 non-deputy or whether he might have been selected as a deputy in the

18 interval by the Assembly, which itself, which did happen later. I don't

19 think that's the case at this point, though. But as I've mentioned

20 earlier, non-members frequently were present at the sessions and addressed

21 the sessions.

22 Q. The portion highlighted expresses Mr. Prstojevic's recollections

23 of the early phases of what he calls the uprising in Sarajevo and

24 reads: "Namely, when the Serbs started the uprising in Sarajevo and when

25 they seized control over certain territories, there was no government, or

1 at least it was not known where it was then. Moreover, we even did not

2 know if Mr. Karadzic was alive during the first couple of days. When we

3 learnt that he was alive and when he visited us in Ilidza and encouraged

4 us, the Serbs from Sarajevo retained control over the territory, and even

5 extended their territory in some areas, driving the Muslims out of the

6 territories where they had actually been majority."

7 A. Yes. I don't think that requires any commentary.

8 Q. And finally, if I could direct your attention, Mr. Treanor, to

9 page 85 of the English, page 87 and then continuing on to page 88 of the

10 B/C/S.

11 A. Yes. Here we have Dr. Karadzic speaking again.

12 Q. The first portion of that page that you've highlighted of

13 Dr. Karadzic's remarks begin: "They want to keep us and the Croats in one

14 unitary state so that we control the Muslims, and we cannot control the

15 Muslims in such a unitary state. We know very well what the

16 fundamentalism is and that we cannot live together. There's no tolerance.

17 They quadruple through the birth rate, and we Serbs are not up to that.

18 Not only are the Serbs not up to that, but the Christians in Lebanon are

19 not up to that Oriental mentality stemming from Islam. Therefore, we

20 cannot do that. Neither Serbs nor Croats together through the birth rate,

21 the penetration of Islam into Europe, since in five to six years Muslims

22 would make 51 per cent of the population of inner Bosnia."

23 A. Yes. Here we see reflected ideas which he has expressed before.

24 Q. The second highlighted portion which begins the sentence after the

25 first, not the following sentence but the one thereafter, reads: "So, if

1 they don't want any kind of Islamic state in the Balkans, then it is less

2 likely that they will want a pure Islamic state, that is to say, an

3 Islamic canton, a Muslim canton in Bosnian territory. There is truth in

4 what Mr. Kupresanin has said, although nobody in Europe will say it

5 openly, that this conflict was roused in order to eliminate the Muslims."

6 A. Yes. And the reference here in these passages to "they" relates

7 to the outside forces which Dr. Karadzic perceives as seeking to attain

8 certain goals in BH.

9 Q. And Dr. Karadzic continues, and you've highlighted a portion of

10 that, which reads: "They think that they are being nationally

11 established, but in fact they are vanishing. If that's the case, then we

12 have our interests for our historical territories."

13 A. Yes. The "they" in this case being the Muslims.

14 Q. Mr. Treanor, I'd like to next direct your attention to --

15 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, Your Honour.

16 Q. To tab 184, where the Presidency session of August 2nd, 1992 can

17 be found. Again, Mr. Treanor, you've highlighted the portion of the

18 session which indicates the attendees. Those were Dr. Karadzic,

19 Mrs. Plavsic, Dr. Plavsic, Dr. Koljevic, Lieutenant General Ratko Mladic,

20 Colonel Zdravko Tolimir. Apologies: Dr. Branko Djeric. And list the

21 agenda: "1. Report on briefing on the conference on Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina in London; 2. Assessment of the military situation; 3. Plan

23 for further activities during an imminent threat of war."

24 And then you've highlighted the first paragraph of item 1. That

25 portion that you've highlighted indicates that: "Members of the

1 negotiating delegation, who were also members of the Presidency

2 (Dr. Karadzic, Dr. Koljevic, and Krajisnik) reported to those present

3 that, at the last conference on Bosnia and Herzegovina held in London at

4 the end of July of this year, they fully complied with the

5 responsibilities stipulated by the Constitution and Law of the Serbian

6 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the authorisation of the Serbian

7 Assembly which was in session at that time."

8 A. Yes, that's correct. Could we scroll up to the top of that

9 document again, the list of attendees? Mr. Krajisnik's name is missing in

10 the English. It is -- he is listed as among the attendees in the

11 original.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Treanor. The Chamber already asked itself

13 whether this minutes were consistent with your report, especially the

14 presence tables. We also see now that in the original, which is not in

15 Cyrillic, but that Mr. Krajisnik appears in the first few lines, which

16 seems to present those who were attending this meeting.

17 THE WITNESS: Yes. As I think I've mentioned, Your Honour, I and

18 my staff work with the original B/C/S documents, and that is the basis on

19 which we compiled our report. In many cases - and this is one of them -

20 this is the first time I've ever seen the English translation, so I was a

21 bit surprised at that myself when I saw it, so I double-checked.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The translation seems not to be correct in this

23 respect. This also draws my attention to what is handwritten on top of

24 it, Roman numbers, in my view, represent 21 instead of 19 in this case.

25 THE WITNESS: Yes. And the number of the session in the Arabic 21

1 is again written in by hand. In the original, an underlined blank space

2 has been left to write the session number in, and that has been filled in

3 by hand as 21.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We've seen that in more of these minutes, even

5 where you have not drawn our attention to it. I, for example, remember on

6 the 11th there was also a handwritten filling in of the following order.

7 THE WITNESS: Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You have drawn our attention to it under 12th but in

9 the 11th it's the same, and I didn't check them all.

10 THE WITNESS: Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

12 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. And on page 2 of the minutes

13 of that -- on page 2 of the minutes of that same session, you've also

14 highlighted item 2, which reflects a briefing of those present on the

15 assessment of the military situation in Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina by

16 General Mladic, in which he described the situation in each combat sector,

17 the necessary tasks and the connection between ensuring material

18 potentials and financial resources and the necessity of adopting the

19 decision on general mobilisation. The item goes on to note that: "Due to

20 security considerations and the detailed nature of the information, the

21 conclusions and alternatives were adopted were not put on record." And

22 finally the last sentence of that item indicates that: "The president of

23 the republic shall issue an order proclaiming the introduction of a

24 general mobilisation on the territory of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

25 and Herzegovina."

1 A. Yes. Here we see again the Presidency dealing with military

2 matters, in this case, apparently particular sensitive matters, and this

3 is one of the occasional number of personal briefings they get from

4 General Mladic.

5 Q. If we could turn next to tab --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Tieger, may I instruct you to provide a

7 proper translation on that first page, because I made a note for myself,

8 but of course, the official exhibit as kept by the Registrar has no

9 correction to this translation mistake. So could you please provide us

10 with another corrected page 00837962, and then a proper translation.

11 MR. TIEGER: Of course, Your Honour. We'll make sure that's done.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 MR. TIEGER:

14 Q. Mr. Treanor, I just directed your attention and the Court's

15 attention to tab 185, the next document. These are the minutes of a

16 session of the Presidency held on 4 August 1992. And the portion of that

17 document which you've highlighted is item 1: "The Presidency considered

18 the situation at the front and discussed undertaking certain activities

19 regarding the situation."

20 A. Yes. Another instance of the Presidency dealing with the military

21 situation. Just to remind the Court, the Presidency is performing the

22 functions assigned to the president of the republic and the constitution

23 and the relevant legislation, one of which duties is that of

24 commander-in-chief of the armed forces.

25 Q. If we can turn, then, to the next session of the Presidency, which

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1 is contained at tab 186. By way of some backdrop to that session,

2 Mr. Treanor, is it correct that at the beginning of August, Newsday

3 reported allegations of Omarska camp and a separate camp at Brcko, and

4 that on August 5th news reporters gained entry and visited the Omarska

5 camp?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. Now, on the minutes of the August 5th, 1992 Presidency session,

8 you've highlighted a number of items.

9 A. Yes. I think we can go to the top on this particular document.

10 Again, the list of attendees. Here we see specific reference to members

11 of the Presidency, with five members being listed, Dr. Karadzic coming

12 first as president of the Presidency, presumably.

13 Q. And if we could scroll down to the first highlighted item, which

14 appears under item 1. That reads: "Regarding individual military units

15 (brigades) which are in the territory of Banja Luka but are not under the

16 military command, they should be placed under the central military command

17 and withdrawn from Banja Luka."

18 A. Yes. This is a reference to the issue of paramilitary and other

19 individuals, armed individuals, who were not under the command of the army

20 or the police. Several orders were issued to the effect that such units

21 and individuals should either disband or be placed under the command of

22 the army or police.

23 Q. I'm now directing your attention to page 2, item 2. You've

24 highlighted the first sentence appearing beneath item 2, which reads: "The

25 question of prisoners of war and their accommodation and the cost of food,

1 as well as the question of political work in units of the Army of the

2 SRBH, were discussed."

3 A. Yes. Here we have another reference to the issue of prisoners.

4 Q. And did those discussions about the prisoner issue continue in the

5 subsequent two sessions of the Presidency?

6 A. Yes. I know there was further discussion of that issue after this

7 date, certainly.

8 Q. If we could turn to tab 187, the 6th August session of the

9 Presidency?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question. I see that where, on the

11 22nd session, it is still said that the meeting was held during imminent

12 threat of war on the 4th of August, that on the 5th of August I do not

13 find any similar, neither on the 6th of August, and the 24th, at least if

14 I go through the binder. Is there any explanation for that, or ...

15 THE WITNESS: I think that you'll find some variance in that in

16 the earlier sessions as well, Your Honour. I have no explanation for why

17 the designation of the nature of the session varies from session to

18 session.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.

20 MR. TIEGER:

21 Q. On screen now is the first page of the minutes of this session of

22 the Presidency held on 6 August 1992, and you've highlighted the first

23 portion, which indicates those who attended.

24 A. Yes. Here we see another list of attendees with explicit

25 reference being made to the fact that Mr. Krajisnik and Dr. Djeric, it

1 should read, were members.

2 Q. If we could turn to page 2 of that session, or the minutes of that

3 session. And you've highlighted two paragraphs, addressing the issue of

4 prisoners and war crimes. The first of which indicates that: "The work

5 of the commission for investigating war crimes committed against the

6 Serbian people in the Serbian Republic of BH and the former Republic of

7 Bosnia and Herzegovina was discussed." And the conclusion was: "The

8 commission for investigating war crimes committed against the Serbian

9 people will start, even if it is necessary to replace the commission

10 members."

11 The second paragraph addresses: "The treatment of prisoners of

12 war detained in prisons in Serbian territory," under the discussion. And

13 indicates that: "The prisoners should be divided into three categories:

14 Those captured on the front; those who took part in arming and operations

15 of the TO of BH; and those who assisted and financed Alija's army." And

16 it continues: "It was pointed out that we should abide by international

17 conventions in the treatment of prisoners of war. To that end, completely

18 humane treatment of prisoners of war is advised because they are in

19 prisons and not concentration camps. In wartime, payments for their food,

20 clothes, hygiene, guarding, et cetera, are made at our expanse." The word

21 in English is "expanse," but it would seem to be --

22 A. "Expense," yes. I think we've seen reference before to the issue

23 of investigating war crimes against the Serbian people and the

24 establishment of bodies to do that. We don't see any reference in these

25 documents to establishing any such body to investigate any war crimes that

1 may have been committed by Bosnian Serbs against non-Serbs.

2 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you one matter in respect of this document.

3 The translation reads, "Signed and stamped." In the original, I have some

4 difficulties in finding a stamp. Is that because of the quality of the

5 copy or ...

6 THE WITNESS: I do not see any stamp on my copy, Your Honour. I

7 do see a signature.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it's signed and not stamped.

9 Mr. Tieger, could you provide a proper translation, without any

10 additions on this page.

11 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. We'll do that.

12 Q. Turning now to tab 188, the session of the Presidency of the

13 Serbian Republic held on 8 August 1992. Under item 2 on the first page,

14 Mr. Treanor, you've highlighted three -- or five sentences indented,

15 addressing the question of camps again.

16 A. Yes. Here we see further detailed attention being given to the

17 issue of prisoners and camps by the Presidency.

18 Q. The highlighted portions begin with the sentence: "Special

19 attention was given to the question of camps and ensuring a better

20 information system. It was also concluded that in future all visitors to

21 the existing and registered prisons must give notice of their visits

22 formally and in time. In future, efforts must be made to

23 agree 'all-for-all exchanges.'" The next sentence concerns the

24 conclusion that visits by representatives of the International Red Cross

25 organisation to all prisons must also be arranged. The next, that all

1 prisoners above the age of 60, or those seriously ill or wounded should be

2 released. And the last, the conclusion that an amnesty should be declared

3 for persons who have committed minor offences or were misled into

4 committing such offences.

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, tab 189 contains the minutes of the

7 9 August government session. And turning to page 4.

8 Q. Mr. Treanor, you've highlighted agenda item 12. This item refers

9 to: "The formation of two commissions consisting of representatives from

10 the Ministry of the Interior and the Ministry of Judiciary and

11 Administration. The commission's task is to gain knowledge through

12 responsible state organs, about the status of people in concentration

13 centres and other sheltering facilities; to speed up the procedure of

14 categorising these people, establishing responsibility and sanctions."

15 A. Yes. Here again we have the government taking an interest in the

16 issue of prisoners.

17 Q. Tab 190 contains the minutes of a session of the government, which

18 was also held -- or also dated 9 August 1992. And if we could turn to

19 page 3. Mr. Treanor, you --

20 A. I'm sorry. This is a session of the...

21 Q. This is the minutes of the 47th Session of the --

22 A. On the 20th of August. Yes.

23 Q. Sorry. Two designations. Perhaps you can clarify that for us.

24 A. The document is dated the 20th of August. The previous session,

25 according to the minutes, was held on the 9th of August, and the minutes

1 are dated the 9th of August. This is the 47th Session, which, according

2 to the minutes at the top, were also held on the 9th of August, but the

3 minutes are dated the 20th of August.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could it help that in the agenda reference is made to

5 the 46th Session of the government held on the 9th of August? So that

6 there might be a mistake, since this is the 47th.

7 THE WITNESS: That's certainly possible, Your Honour. I am

8 searching for a further document. Let me consult our report in this

9 respect, on page 175.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Just after the agenda, we find that the minutes of

11 the 46th Session of the government were adopted. And the minutes of the

12 46th Session, which we found under 189, bear the date of the 9th of

13 August.

14 THE WITNESS: Yes. In our report, we discuss some of this

15 confusion, which is -- discussion is very -- gets into some of the

16 details. In fact, there was a 47th closed session held on the 19th of

17 August as well. So I would conclude that this is the open portion of the

18 47th Session and was held on the 19th of August.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's proceed.

20 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, with respect to the proposal to hold a

21 closed session, we can turn, I think, quickly, to the same document we've

22 been looking at, to page 3.

23 Q. Mr. Treanor had previously highlighted agenda item 7. That item

24 reads: "The government agreed on holding a special closed government

25 session in which to discuss a report on touring of concentration centres

1 and other detention facilities in Krajina Autonomous Region."

2 A. On the issue of the dating, I would also add, as we indicated in

3 our report, that the minutes of the 48th Session state that the 47th

4 Session took place on the 19th of August.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Both the closed and the open session were

6 mentioned, and if I would look forward, I would find that in -- under

7 tab 193, English text page 4, first lines reading: "The minutes of the

8 47th government session and the minutes of the closed government session,

9 both held on the 19th of August, 1992 were adopted in their proposed

10 versions. " That sufficiently clarifies the matter for the moment.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. TIEGER:

13 Q. On the 11th of August, 1992, the 18th Session of the Assembly of

14 the Serbian People was held. If we could turn, then, to page 191 --

15 sorry, tab 191. Mr. Treanor, perhaps you could provide us with the

16 context and backdrop to that session.

17 A. This is the next following session, and it had a -- it took place

18 not too long after the previous session. Its agenda is a bit shorter,

19 consisting of a number of personnel actions, but also including the

20 adoption of a declaration on the future state structure of the Serbian

21 State of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Most of the other items in the agenda,

22 the personnel items represent the confirmation of decisions taken by the

23 Presidency.

24 Q. If I could direct your attention to page 2 of that document and

25 page 3 of the B/C/S.

1 A. Here we see deputy Marinko Kontic, who had been elected a member

2 of the Chamber of Municipalities in 1990, addressing the issue of

3 prisoners, which has been mentioned, became a subject of some public

4 discussion at the beginning of August. And he is desirous of having this

5 included in the agenda.

6 Q. The highlighted portion are the remarks by Mr. Kontic towards the

7 bottom part of that page, beginning: "I suggest you to include into the

8 agenda the problem of prisoners. I think that our Assembly has never

9 discussed about this problem and it is a very important topic. There are

10 a lot of problems about it. That is the reason why I would like the

11 Assembly to be informed about and to discuss it."

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can we turn next to tab 192. This document is headed, "Minutes of

14 the 19th Session of the Assembly of the Serbian people in Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina held on 12 August 1992 in Banja Luka." And you've highlighted

16 the items enumerated under the agenda.

17 A. Yes. We can see the agenda here, and I'd like to call attention

18 in particular to two items. One is item number 4, on the future

19 territorial organisation of the republic and the adoption of views on the

20 regions. And number 6, which is: "Alteration of the Constitution and

21 adoption of the Republic's name." The issue of the regions continued to

22 be a topic of discussion until the following month, when, as I think we'll

23 see, some decisions were made in that area. I won't go into that now.

24 But I would just comment that at this time, an amendment to the

25 constitution was adopted, changing the name of the republic to

1 Republika Srpska, which is the form we generally use in referring to it.

2 It could be rendered in English as simply a Serbian Republic.

3 Q. Did Mr. Kontic's suggestion to include on the agenda the important

4 issue of prisoners make it to the agenda?

5 A. No, I don't think that was adopted as part of the agenda per se,

6 although there may have been some -- the issue may have come up again

7 later, in that session. That being the previous session.

8 Q. If we could turn next to tab 193, the government session held on

9 28 August 1992. And again, this appears to be, assuming the English

10 translation is accurate, there appears to be a date discrepancy, which is

11 relatively easily resolved by the agenda items.

12 A. Yes. In the B/C/S, there is what appears to be an error as well.

13 The date being given as the 28th of July. But from the numbering of the

14 sessions, the date on the document itself, which is the 9th of September,

15 and the content of the document, it would appear that this -- the date

16 should be the 28th of August.

17 Q. Turning to page 11 of the English translation. I don't have the

18 B/C/S equivalent. I think it's the last or second-to-last page of that

19 document, and is agenda item 33.

20 A. That's on page 15 of the original.

21 Q. And Mr. Treanor, you've highlighted the first paragraph of that

22 document before the bulleted items appear.

23 A. Yes. And here we see the government addressing the issue of

24 prisoners again and specifying some action to be taken.

25 Q. For the record, that portion indicates: "The government decided

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1 to organise a meeting in Banja Luka on Saturday, 29 August this year, to

2 include," and it lists a number of participants, including, well,

3 specifically: "Milan Trbojevic, Dragan Kalinic, Bogdan Subotic, General

4 Milan Gvero, Slobodan Avlijas, Stojan Zupljanin, and other Krajina

5 representatives, to discuss the situation and agree the disbanding of

6 concentration centres for prisoners. This should be placed in the context

7 of implementing the decisions of the London conference. The ministry of

8 information is due to inform the public about this and exploit it for

9 propaganda purposes."

10 A. Yes. And just to remind the Court, the people mentioned are

11 Mr. Trbojevic, who was a deputy and at this point also a vice-president of

12 the government, Dr. Kalinic, who was also a deputy, and the minister of

13 health, Colonel Subotic, who was the minister of defence, General Gvero, a

14 member of General Mladic's staff, and Mr. Avlijas, an official in the

15 Ministry of Justice, and Stojan Zupljanin, who was head of the security

16 services centre in Banja Luka.

17 Q. If I could direct your attention next to tab 194 -- direct the

18 Chamber's attention to tab 194 and your attention to the 27th Session of

19 the Presidency held on 31 August 1992. In that document you've

20 highlighted two portions, the first of which appears at the top of the

21 page and the second of which appears at the bottom.

22 A. Yes. Here we can see that Deputy Prime Minister Trbojevic, who

23 was mentioned in the previous document, is attending this session.

24 Q. Now, in the English translation it indicates that the session was

25 attended by the following members of the Presidency: Dr. Karadzic,

1 Momcilo Krajisnik, Dr. Biljana Plavsic, Dr. Branko Djeric, Dr. Nikola

2 Koljevic, and Deputy Prime Minister Milan Trbojevic. In the original

3 B/C/S --

4 A. Yes. There is a minor discrepancy there. In the B/C/S, the "and"

5 follows the name of Dr. Djeric in preceding that of Dr. Koljevic. So it

6 should read Dr. Branko Djeric and Dr. Nikola Koljevic, followed by simply

7 a comma, Deputy Prime Minister Milan Trbojevic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: This will all not appear in the tendered documents.

9 Could I instruct you to provide a proper translation of this as well.

10 Mr. Tieger.

11 MR. TIEGER: And if we could scroll down to the highlighted

12 portion at the bottom of the page, which indicates that: "During the

13 session of the Presidency, General Mladic and General Gvero arrived." And

14 if we turn to page 2.

15 A. Yes. They gave another briefing on the military situation.

16 Q. And you've highlighted all of the minutes contained on page 2,

17 which reflect that briefing and indicate that: "All details were

18 discussed, but they were not put on record because of the level of their

19 confidentiality."

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And: "Certain conclusions were adopted on the basis of the

22 detailed discussion which are not recorded here."

23 A. Yes. And this document does have a signature and a stamp, as

24 stated in the translation.

25 Q. If we can move quickly through some of the remaining documents.

1 At tab 195, the 27th Session of the Presidency held on September 1.

2 A. Yes. If I could just point out here. The Court may remember that

3 the previous session was also numbered the 27th. On that particular

4 document, the Arabic numeral is written by hand, as has been typical up

5 until this point. Here in the minutes of the 1st of September we see that

6 the numbers are in fact typed in but giving the same number as the

7 previous session. And we can see that the -- in these minutes, the

8 members of the Presidency are specifically referred to and listed.

9 Q. And you've also highlighted item 4 at the bottom of the page.

10 A. Yes. Here we see a report by Colonel Subotic, the minister of

11 defence, here described as the minister of the army, about military

12 affairs.

13 Q. That item indicates that Colonel Subotic: "Briefed the members of

14 the Presidency about his visits to certain towns and military formations

15 in the Bosnian Krajina and the wider area and informed," it says: "The

16 present [sic], of his military observations. And that the reports and

17 conclusions of the minister were adopted in their entirety and he agreed

18 with the order of the president of the Presidency regarding the engagement

19 of certain military formations in the forthcoming period."

20 A. Yes. The end of the first paragraph should read: Informed those

21 present.

22 Q. If I could direct the Court's attention next to the -- sorry about

23 the microphone. Your Honours, if I could direct your attention next to

24 tab 198, the government session held on September 7th, 1992.

25 Mr. Treanor, you've highlighted a portion of those minutes

1 contained on page 5. Under agenda item 15.

2 A. Yes. And that's page 5 in the original as well.

3 Q. That agenda item indicates that: "A government commission's

4 report on a tour of camps and concentration centres in SAO Herzegovina was

5 adopted."

6 A. Yes. Again, the government treating with the issue of prisoners.

7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, if we could turn next to tab 199.

8 This is an open-letter by Professor Plavsic directed to, as we see from

9 the highlight at the top of the page, Mr. Boutros-Ghali, Secretary-General

10 of the UN, International Committee of the Red Cross, Mr. T. Germond, the

11 High Commissioner for refugees, coordinating committee of the EC

12 conference, Mr. Jeremy Brade, and the French Red Cross, Mr. Kouchner.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And if we could turn to page 2. Here, Mr. Treanor, you've

15 highlighted the second-to-last paragraph of that page: "Some

16 international institutions which have decided to extinct Serbs, give

17 support to genocide. They do not think that, even tomorrow, the wheel of

18 the fortune may turn around, the truth become evident, and that all those

19 who supported the genocide may be lined up with those who committed crimes

20 over children, women, and old people."

21 And if we could turn quickly to page -- to the next page. The

22 first sentence of the next page reads in capital letters: "Our Serb army

23 do not rape anybody." And then we see the signature and stamp of Biljana

24 Plavsic, member of Presidency.

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the record, it's not the next page, but the

2 second next page.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ORIE: I have to correct myself. It is ...

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, it appears that the binder may

7 contain --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 MR. TIEGER: -- a duplicate page.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In our binder it's the second next page but the

11 next page is the same page as page 2. So it is on page 3, where the

12 previous comment was on page 2. Could we just look back at the highlights

13 we've just seen. Yes. One of the highlights was on page 2, and the next

14 page was page 3. We removed the additional page 2 from our binders.

15 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I'll just point out that the two

16 page 2s are not identical.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, they're not the same.

18 THE WITNESS: And in fact bear different ERN numbers. This was

19 sent as a fax. I can see that the pagination of the fax transmission line

20 is not continuous, so that was probably -- that page was probably sent

21 twice.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's sent twice, and I think for good reasons,

23 because only now I notice that some of the lines legible on one of the

24 pages 2 are illegible on the other page 2, whereas the same is true in the

25 opposite direction. So reading two times page 2 gives us a full insight

1 on what page 2 brings us. Please proceed. I apologise for drawing wrong

2 conclusions.

3 MR. TIEGER:

4 Q. Mr. Treanor, any further comments on that document before we turn

5 to the next?

6 A. If I could just make the observation that the highlighted portion

7 on page 2 reflects some of the thoughts we've seen from Dr. Karadzic about

8 certain outside forces being lined up against the Serbs.

9 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I may, the next document will be in

10 the next binder. Perhaps while you're reviewing this, we can ...

11 Your Honour, in connection with this binder, I should note,

12 although you may not discover that immediately, that tabs 209 and 210 were

13 intentionally left blank so that the B/C/S and the English could

14 correspond.

15 Q. If we could turn, then, to tab 201. And Mr. Treanor, if I could

16 direct your attention to a government session of 26 September 1992. And

17 if we could turn to page 9 of the English translation of that document,

18 page 11 of the B/C/S. Here you've highlighted a portion that appears

19 under agenda item 53, questions and proposals, and it's the first three

20 sentences thereafter, beginning with: "The Ministry of the Interior is to

21 prepare a report on security in Republika Srpska for the next session."

22 A. Yes. This is under an agenda item referred to as questions and

23 proposals, and it foresees another joint session with the Presidency.

24 We've seen reference to such a joint session earlier as well.

25 Q. The second sentence refers to a proposal for a report which should

1 focus on the theft of socially and state-owned property. Do you know to

2 what that refers?

3 A. Yes, I do. In fact, there's another inconsistency here. Socially

4 owned property would be the property of -- under the socialist system

5 of -- that was dominant in Yugoslavia until this time, what we might call

6 state-owned property, that is, publicly owned property, enterprises, that

7 type of thing. Public property, perhaps, would be a good word. And in

8 the original, the next reference is to private property, which I don't

9 think needs any explanation.

10 Q. If we could turn next, then, to tab 203, a session of the

11 Presidency held on 9 October 1992.

12 JUDGE ORIE: It's not entirely clear to me when you say in the

13 original, the next --

14 THE WITNESS: The reference to state-owned property should be

15 private property.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Should read private property. The Chamber would like

17 to receive this page replaced as well by one containing the proper

18 translation. If at least, and I'm assuming that, Mr. Treanor's

19 translations are better than those of our translators. The Chamber has no

20 view on that at this moment, but I take it that you'll seek the joint

21 approval for the new translation, and once Mr. Treanor has -- well,

22 perhaps it's better not to discuss it with him when he is not yet

23 cross-examined. But I take it that the translators, of course, will have

24 to approve the changes suggested by Mr. Treanor. If there's any issue

25 which does not find the approval of our translation unit, then the Chamber

1 would like to be informed. Please proceed.

2 MR. TIEGER:

3 Q. Mr. Treanor, now we're looking at the minutes of the session of

4 the Presidency of Republika Srpska of 9 October 1992. You've highlighted

5 two portions. If you could explain that.

6 A. Yes. Well, again we can see highlighted the list of attendees,

7 which again explicitly refers to members of the Presidency, only three of

8 whom were present, Dr. Karadzic and Dr. Plavsic being absent, and in this

9 connection I would call attention to the very end of the document, where

10 the minutes are signed by Mr. Krajisnik as the presiding officer. And the

11 document does, in fact -- the copy of the document that I have does, in

12 fact, bear what appears to be his signature.

13 Now, to get back to the substantive portions of the document. The

14 term "Supreme Commander," I would render as the Main Commander, the

15 reference being to General Mladic, who was the commander of the Main

16 Staff. And this indicates that the Presidency would like to get

17 information from him every day. As we've seen, General Mladic did

18 occasionally attend Presidency sessions and brief the Presidency on the

19 military situation. What other information he may have been sending to

20 the Presidency in that regard, I don't know, but the Presidency evidently

21 felt that it would like to get something every day.

22 Q. And on page 2, you've highlighted the passage from the

23 minutes: "Regarding the military operation in Sarajevo."

24 A. Yes. Here we see the Presidency taking a military decision.

25 Again, the Presidency is performing the functions of the president of the

1 republic, one of which is that of commander-in-chief of the armed forces.

2 Again, the term "Supreme Command" might be better rendered as "Main

3 Command." The term "supreme" having been used in the legislation to

4 describe the position of the president of the republic in relation to the

5 army.

6 Q. Mr. Treanor, if we could turn next to the 16 June 1992 appointment

7 of war commissioner by the Presidency, contained at tab 204.

8 A. Yes. This is a document relating to the appointment of a

9 republican commissioner under a decision that was taken by the Presidency

10 on the 10th of June, one which I had previously selected but which we did

11 not examine. But the main interest of this document is -- lies in the

12 fact that, as the Court can see on the translation, it is -- it bears the

13 name of Radovan Karadzic as president of the Presidency, and a seal, but

14 it in fact bears what I believe to be Mr. Krajisnik's signature.

15 Q. And if we could turn to tabs 205 and then 206, in succession. If

16 you could explain those to us as well.

17 A. These are similar documents, and they bear similar signatures,

18 that is, what I believe to be the signatures of Mr. Krajisnik rather than

19 those of Dr. Karadzic.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you one thing. I see several times in

21 the English translation, I see the word "for" which means not signed by

22 the person himself but on his behalf by someone else. Could you guide us

23 in the original where we exactly find such an indication in 204, 205, and

24 in 206 it doesn't give a similar "for" in the translation. Could you tell

25 us where in 204 and 205 exactly we find that.

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1 THE WITNESS: I presume 204 is the 16 June document.

2 JUDGE ORIE: 204 is the 16th of June document, the certificate

3 where Mr. Jovanovic is appointed as the state commissioner for the

4 municipality of Ilijas.

5 THE WITNESS: Right. Well, Your Honour, I certainly could not

6 definitely confirm that. I can see that by comparing the seals that there

7 appears to be something written inside the seal, the stamp. In this case,

8 at about 10.00 o'clock, above the cross, which appears to be a handwritten

9 Cyrillic -- or could be a handwritten Cyrillic "Z."

10 MR. TIEGER: And if I may, Your Honour, this is the signature

11 appearing on the document bearing the ERN 00903127.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 THE WITNESS: The word for "for" in B/C/S is -- consists of just

14 two letters, z-a, "za." It could be that that's what this is and the

15 translator has in fact taken it for that. We see something similar in the

16 21 August document, number 3116, where we see something similar right at

17 the tip of the cross. And in the third document, number 3106, if we could

18 blow that up. There may be something of a similar nature at about 1.00

19 o'clock, just above the cross, over the writing in the inner circle of

20 writing, there's a squiggle there, which again could be a Cyrillic "Z."

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although there the interpreters have not

22 interpreted that as a "for," because it doesn't appear in the ... Yes.

23 It's -- at least it's clear to us on what basis we could understand that

24 the translators have translated this as "for."

25 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

1 MR. TIEGER:

2 Q. Mr. Treanor, have you seen any other documents in which other

3 members of the Presidency sign for Mr. -- for Dr. Karadzic?

4 A. At this point in time, I cannot recall specifically any such

5 document. There may be one signed by Dr. Plavsic, but I don't have any

6 specific recollection.

7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'll be guided by the Court on what time

8 it wants to take a break. I'm not necessarily suggesting one; I just -- I

9 know it will occur around this time.

10 JUDGE ORIE: We restarted at approximately 10 minutes to 11.00, so

11 I would say that if we could have a break in approximately five minutes

12 from now.

13 MR. TIEGER: If I could direct the Court's attention to tab 208,

14 Presidency session of 26 October 1992.

15 Q. Again, Mr. Treanor, looking at the designation of those present,

16 or the indication of those present.

17 A. Yes. Here again we see those present explicitly described as

18 being members of the Presidency or, in Dr. Karadzic's case, the president

19 of the Presidency. Dr. Koljevic also being described as a member, being

20 indicated as absent.

21 Q. If we could turn to page 3, item 8. You've highlighted that item,

22 which reads: "A report on rumours in Herzegovina about the behaviour of

23 Branko Simic, people's deputy since April 1992. During his stay in

24 Herzegovina was discussed." Its significance, please.

25 A. This relates to a fairly obscure set of allegations in relation to

1 Mr. Simic, who was a deputy, had been elected to the Chamber of Citizens

2 from Mostar in 1990, and I think we're going to see at least one more

3 document in relation to this affair. At this point, we can note that this

4 matter has come to the attention of the government on the -- I'm sorry, of

5 the Presidency on the 26th of October. And the conclusion below it

6 indicates that a letter should be sent to the organs of military authority

7 to investigate the accusations of Mr. Simic.

8 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, if you could turn to tab 211.

9 Q. Mr. Treanor, that's a letter from Mr. Krajisnik to the RS Main

10 Staff and dated 26 October 1992.

11 A. Yes. This is the letter which was apparently sent as a result of

12 the discussion and conclusions reached at the session of the Presidency on

13 the 26th to the Main Staff of the army, asking for an investigation in

14 connection with allegations surrounding Mr. Simic. And the letter is

15 signed by Mr. Krajisnik and bears his signature, with which we are by now

16 familiar, and indicates that this document was adopted by the Presidency

17 at its session of the 26th of October.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: I am informed that, Mr. Krajisnik, you might not have

20 a copy of 211.

21 MS. LOUKAS: I can indicate, Your Honour, we're just passing it

22 across now.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And Mr. Treanor, may I make one comment on what

24 you -- on your testimony you just said, that we are familiar with the

25 signature of Mr. Krajisnik. Of course, that depends on whether your

1 suggestion that the other signatures are those of Mr. Krajisnik --

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, of course, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: So could you please refrain from what is familiar to

4 us at this moment.

5 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

6 MR. TIEGER:

7 Q. And just before we leave that subject --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we better leave it, everyone having 211 open,

9 for after the break, and adjourn until 20 minutes to 1.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, we still have tab 211 in front of us.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. TIEGER: Actually, Your Honour, I appreciate your keeping that

15 tab in front of you, but I think we can move on to the next item, which is

16 contained at tab 212.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise. I should not try to take over the lead.

18 Please proceed.

19 MR. TIEGER:

20 Q. And at tab 212, we find the minutes of the session of the

21 government on November 17th, 1992. If we could turn to agenda item 22 --

22 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Could we get back to that, the first

23 page? 57th Session, 27 October. Yes. I thought you said November. I'm

24 sorry.

25 MR. TIEGER:

1 Q. I did say that, and I apologise. You're quite right. I wanted to

2 direct your attention, Mr. Treanor, to a highlighted portion that appears

3 under agenda item 22, containing two paragraphs.

4 A. Yes. Here is another reference to the issue of prisoners in the

5 minutes of government sessions, with information on this topic being

6 obtained from Mr. Mandic, the minister of justice.

7 MR. TIEGER: For the record, agenda item -- the highlighted

8 portion of agenda item 22 indicates that: "Momcilo Mandic, minister of

9 judiciary and administration, has informed the government on the situation

10 in Republika Srpska camps and Assembly centres. It is concluded that the

11 existing illegal camps and assembly centres are to be dissolved as soon as

12 possible. The existing penal institutions legally formed in large centres

13 in Republika Srpska are to be used, since the conditions there are

14 suitable for legal treatment of prisoners and inmates."

15 Your Honours, if I could direct your attention next to the

16 following tab, 213, which contains the record of the 22nd Assembly Session

17 held on 23 and 24 November 1992.

18 A. Yes. I would start out by remarking that the 21st Session had

19 been held at the end of October, from October -- from 30 October until

20 1 November, in Prijedor. We do not have any record, any written record of

21 that session. It featured, however, an interruption for a joint session

22 with the Assembly of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, that is, the Serbian

23 entity in Croatia. That session was held with a view to some sort of

24 union between the Serbian entities in Croatia and Bosnia. The session

25 we're looking at now, the 22nd Session, again has a long agenda of

1 legislative and personnel actions and most prominently, the issue of the

2 resignation of the president of the government, that is, Mr. Djeric, who

3 submitted his resignation around this time. A lot of the discussion at

4 this session revolved around that issue. And one of the issues that came

5 up in the course of discussion was the issue of the legal basis for the

6 functioning of the expanded five-member Presidency, and also the war

7 presidencies and war commissioners in the municipalities which the

8 Presidency had established under similar authority to that which was

9 supposed to have existed for the existence of the expanded Presidency.

10 Q. Mr. Treanor, let me direct your attention first to a highlighted

11 portion that relates to the first issue you mentioned, the resignation of

12 Mr. Djeric. That's found on page 17 of the English, page 12 of the B/C/S,

13 and the highlight reflects a portion of the remarks by Mr. Djeric. The

14 highlighted portion has just been technically deleted from the screen, but

15 it previously read, if I caught it correctly: "For example, when it comes

16 to the justice system, when it comes to the minister of justice, the

17 minister of internal affairs, they are not even in the government. They

18 never come to the government sessions. Only to the president of the

19 Republic or the president of the Assembly."

20 A. This appears to be one of the areas of Mr. Djeric's

21 dissatisfaction, namely, that even as prime minister, his own ministers

22 didn't come to government sessions and dealt directly with other officials

23 instead.

24 Q. Let me direct your attention next to a highlight found at page 23

25 of the English, page 18 and 19 of the B/C/S, which contains a portion of

1 the remarks by Professor Plavsic.

2 A. Yes. Here Mrs. Plavsic refers, among other things, to her efforts

3 to recruit volunteers for the Bosnian Serb cause.

4 Q. And again, the highlight was briefly shown before it was somehow

5 technically deleted and was the portion of her remarks which stated: "I

6 tried to gather all those people who wanted to fight for the Serbianhood.

7 You may talk about paramilitary formations and non-paramilitary

8 formations, but, excuse me, it is none of my concern. I was looking for

9 men who wanted to fight with the Serbs, on the territory of the

10 Republika Srpska. Those letters have gone to the Soviet Union, and they

11 went to Seselj, Arkan, and Jovic."

12 They continue on to the next page in English, the first two lines

13 of that page ending: "It is not small talk. I really did that. So

14 condemn me," followed by applause.

15 Anything to add, Mr. Treanor, before we move on?

16 A. No. I don't think that calls for much commentary. I think the

17 reference to Jovic is probably to Borisav Jovic, who was a member of the

18 collective Presidency of the -- what is at this point the former Socialist

19 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

20 Q. And if we could turn next to the second issue that you mentioned

21 earlier, and that is the discussions surrounding the legal basis for the

22 expanded Presidency and the war presidencies, and that would be page 60 of

23 the English, page 59 of the B/C/S.

24 A. Yes. Here we have Dr. Karadzic speaking and addressing that

25 issue. I hope we can get it magnified.

1 MR. TIEGER: As the Court can see, the process of magnifying the

2 highlighted portion somehow is resulting in the deletion of the highlight,

3 but I think -- I hope the Chamber had an opportunity to see where that was

4 and we can nevertheless identify it.

5 A. Yes. It began with: "I was all in favour of the Presidency,

6 instead of a president, because there was a lot of work to be done, and if

7 Mr. Koljevic and I are busy, we have Biljana and, and if even she is busy,

8 then we have Mr. Krajisnik." And it continued to the end of the next

9 paragraph.

10 Q. And in that subsequent paragraph, is it correct that Mr. -- that

11 Dr. Karadzic describes the advantages of the expanded Presidency and the

12 performance of the expanded Presidency?

13 A. Yes. Well, he says they discussed everything and it functioned

14 very well.

15 Q. And that portion of Dr. Karadzic's remarks which were highlighted

16 indicate: "We have never come into conflict in the Presidency, without me

17 or any of us being ready to give in. We put all ideas on the table,

18 discuss them, and when we decide which one is the best, we go on."

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. If I could direct your attention next to a highlight found at

21 page 76 of the English, page 75 of the B/C/S.

22 A. I'm sorry. Which page of the B/C/S?

23 Q. 75.

24 A. Here we have Mr. Krajisnik interjecting during remarks by Aleksa

25 Milojevic, who is an SDS official, party official, from Sarajevo, and at

1 this point in time was the minister of development and spatial planning in

2 the government.

3 Q. We now have on screen the English translation of Mr. Milojevic's

4 remarks, and a portion of which is highlighted, toward the top of the

5 page. That portion says: "The citizenship of Republika Srpska is also

6 acquired by birth at the territory of Republika Srpska, which, in fact,

7 means that all Muslims and Croats who have been expelled have the

8 citizenship of Republika Srpska." And apparently generated discussion

9 from the seats. He goes on apparently to describe the article or proposed

10 article about which he is concerned.

11 A. Yes. One of the proposals before the Assembly was a law on

12 citizenship.

13 Q. After Mr. Milojevic has expressed his concerns about the possible

14 consequences of that law, does Mr. Krajisnik address the issue?

15 A. Yes. That is at the bottom of the page.

16 Q. The highlighted portion at the bottom of the page begins: "We

17 have decided that if this is Republika Srpska, it is Serbian, so that the

18 citizenship is Serbian. There are no nationalities, just religion. That

19 is the same as in France or any other country. That is why I would like

20 to ask you, especially Mr. Mandic," and it continues: "I don't know who

21 is," and on to the next page. Again, the highlights have been lost, but

22 if I could -- I presume that highlight continued at least to the

23 conclusion of his remarks there. But if I could direct your attention,

24 Mr. Treanor, to the remarks by Mr. Krajisnik at the bottom of page 77,

25 which I believe indicate the results of the discussion that took place,

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1 raised first by Mr. Milojevic and then followed by Mr. Krajisnik's

2 responses.

3 And if we could turn --

4 A. Yes. I have on page 76 of the original, where it indicates that

5 the draft law has been returned for further work to the Ministry of

6 Internal Affairs.

7 Q. And we can see that in the bottom part of the first long paragraph

8 of Mr. Krajisnik's remarks, where it is proposed that the draft law be

9 sent back as soon as possible with the assistance of Mr. Milojevic and

10 Mr. Radovic.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And if we continue on to page 78. At the top of the page there is

13 a highlighted portion. I think we'll refrain from attempting to magnify

14 that. That apparently results in some technical problems. As the first

15 sentence of that page, Mr. Krajisnik's remarks: "I find that we have

16 returned the Law on Citizenship to the Ministry of Internal Affairs to be

17 rewritten with the help of Mr. Milojevic and Mr. Radovic."

18 A. Yes. That's further down on page 76 in the original.

19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, if I could direct your attention next

20 to tab 214, session of the Presidency held on the 30th of November, 1992.

21 Q. Mr. Treanor, you've highlighted, in addition to the portion

22 indicating those present, item 1 of the session, which refers to: "A

23 discussion held at the initiative of Patriarch Pavle, regarding an amnesty

24 for a Manjaca prisoner.

25 A. Yes, that's correct. This indicates again that the Presidency

1 dealt with even individual cases of prisoners.

2 Q. The second sentence of that item indicates: "The amnesty is

3 within the competence of the Presidency."

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And apparently the conclusion is to request from Colonel Tolimir

6 additional information about the prisoner.

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. If we could turn next to tab 215. I'm sorry. Instead of moving

9 forward, Mr. Treanor, I do want to direct your attention to the second

10 highlighted portion of the 30 November 1992 Presidency session. And that

11 is found on page 2 of the minutes of that session and is item 3. And I

12 note that on the English translation, two item 3s appear.

13 A. Two item 3s appear in the original as well. It's the second

14 item 3 is what is in question.

15 Q. And that concerns a discussion about the justification for

16 introducing a War Commission and an extended Presidency under the current

17 circumstances.

18 A. Yes. This is discussion in the Presidency of the issue of the

19 legal basis for the expanded Presidency at the republic level and the

20 appointment of war commissioners to the municipalities. As I mentioned

21 earlier, this was discussed at the previous Assembly session. They're

22 here discussing how to deal with this issue. As the Court can see, they

23 recognise that the words "an imminent threat of war" would be needed if

24 they were to simply -- if they were to go ahead and amend the legislation

25 to permit the continued existence of the expanded Presidency. However,

1 they wound up moving in a different direction, as I think we'll see very

2 shortly, by re-forming the Presidency once again.

3 MR. TIEGER: For the record, the second item 3 indicates, as I

4 noted earlier, that in response to parliamentary questions, the Presidency

5 discussed justification to introduce a War Commission, extended

6 Presidency. It further indicates that it was established that: "For

7 well-known reasons, a state of war had not been declared and that an

8 extended Presidency, including the president of the National Assembly and

9 the prime minister of Republika Srpska, could be introduced only under

10 such circumstances. The case is the same with the War Presidency which

11 was introduced to replace the commission." And then it discusses the law

12 and amendments to the constitutional law, Republika Srpska, adopted on

13 2 July 1992. Describes it in the fashion you just did, including that:

14 "The Presidency shall be extended to include the president of the

15 National Assembly and the prime minister of Republika Srpska. The same

16 law also stipulates that war presidencies can be established during a

17 state of war."

18 And then it goes on: "In both cases, if these institutions are

19 retained, these regulations must be amended," and after the words, "A

20 state of war," the words, "An imminent threat of war," need to be added,

21 and after the words "war presidencies," the words "War Commissions." And

22 then indicates that: "Each member of the Presidency spoke about his or

23 her position and current work and the question of the introduction of the

24 state council or the possibility of introducing two Presidencies."

25 A. Yes. Now, just a minor remark here. The paragraph which refers

1 to the War Presidency and the replacement which was introduced to replace

2 the commission, I believe, should in fact read which would more accurately

3 reflect what in fact happened. The same was the condition with the War

4 Presidency which had been introduced -- which was replaced by the

5 commission. The decision on the 31st of May had introduced the

6 institution of War Presidency on the municipal level. On the 10th of

7 June, a second decision replaced the war presidencies with War

8 Commissioners who were also appointed by the Presidency. So the reference

9 in this paragraph is to the war presidencies on the municipal level and

10 their replacement by commissions.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it's -- you've now reflected what, in your

12 view, had happened, on the basis of the other documents. But the

13 translation is correct in reflecting the original text. Because we should

14 make a clear distinction on whether --

15 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour. In my view, the translation is

16 incorrect.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And could you then tell us exactly where --

18 THE WITNESS: Well, the clause which reads here: "Which was

19 introduced to replace the commission," should read -- I believe: "Which

20 was replaced by the commission."

21 JUDGE ORIE: So it really is a translation matter. Then,

22 Mr. Tieger, may ask for your attention to it, especially for this page,

23 and see whether the translators would agree that Mr. Treanor's translation

24 is the more correct one compared to the one we have in front of us.

25 Please proceed.

1 MR. TIEGER:

2 Q. Mr. Treanor, the reference in the bottom of the highlighted

3 portion, the possibility of introducing two Presidencies.

4 A. I'll look at that. The possibility of introducing two

5 vice-presidents. As we will see, the five-member Presidency which was

6 then operating was replaced on the 17th of December by a new set-up which

7 consisted of a president and two vice-presidents, in fact.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, it's on the same page, so it's ... Could

9 you please take care that that translation is verified as well.

10 MR. TIEGER:

11 Q. Mr. Treanor, directing your attention now to the decision on

12 establishment of the Supreme Command of the army of RS, found at tab 215,

13 Your Honours. We see two portions of that document highlighted, Article 2

14 and Article 5.

15 A. Yes. Article 2 describes the composition of the Supreme Command.

16 And Article 5 indicates the -- something about the decision-making process

17 there. The Supreme Command -- this is the 30th of November, after the

18 discussion about the foundation, the legal foundation of the expanded

19 Presidency and the necessity for some sort of change, this seems to be

20 part of that change. A Supreme Command is formed, which has much the same

21 composition as the original National Security Council and later the

22 five-member Presidency, not exactly the same composition, but similar.

23 However, the decision-making process here is such that the ultimate

24 decision is left to the president in Article 5. And as I mentioned, they

25 are about to reform the office of the Presidency once again and introduce

1 a single president, so that instead of having a joint commander-in-chief,

2 if you will, that is, a multimember Presidency exercising the powers of

3 the president of the republic as commander-in-chief, there will only be

4 one president and it will be the responsibility of that official, under

5 Article 5, to ultimately issue any decisions which are made.

6 This copy of the document is signed in the original, with a

7 signature which can be fairly easily read as Radovan Karadzic. It bears

8 the date of the 30th of November. However, it does not have a number.

9 And as far as I have been able to determine, it was never published in the

10 Official Gazette, as specified in Article 6. However, we do have minutes

11 of one session of the Supreme Command which took place, I believe, on the

12 20th of December, from which we can see that this institution, in fact,

13 did come into operation. That is the only set of minutes that we have, so

14 I can't say anything about its functioning after that particular date.

15 Q. If we could turn to tab 216, the 17 December session of the

16 National Assembly held on December 17th, 1992.

17 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, that can be found in binder 15.

18 Q. Mr. Treanor, I believe you've already provided some of the

19 background to that session. If perhaps you could tell us what happened

20 during that session, at least in terms of its significance to the subjects

21 you've been addressing.

22 A. Yes. This session had a fairly lengthy legislative and personnel

23 agenda. Most prominently under consideration were the adoption of a

24 constitutional amendment and associated amendment to the constitutional

25 law, which reformed the office of the Presidency yet again that I've

1 already referred to, and this session also adopted a decision or

2 resolution on declaring an end to the war.

3 Q. If we could turn quickly to tab 217. We'll find the declaration

4 to which Mr. Treanor just referred.

5 A. Yes. This declaration was published in the Official Gazette on

6 the 18th of December. As we have seen, no state of war had ever been

7 proclaimed. An imminent threat of war was proclaimed on the 15th of

8 April, but a state of war was never proclaimed, although there are

9 frequent references in the documents to war. And here we have a

10 declaration ending the war, which is here described as the interethnic and

11 interreligious war in the former Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina.

13 MR. TIEGER: And for the record, the highlighted portions

14 include -- first of all, you've just referred to a passage from

15 paragraph 1 of the document --

16 THE WITNESS: Paragraph 1 which is not highlighted, yes.

17 Arabic 1.

18 MR. TIEGER: And paragraphs 2 and 3, 3 continues on to the next

19 page, are highlighted. And paragraph 8 also appears to be highlighted.

20 A. Yes. This paragraph relates to the prosecution of war criminals.

21 Q. Mr. Treanor, I interrupted your explanation of the events of the

22 17th of December session, based on your reference to this document, but I

23 should invite you now to return to your explanation about the session

24 itself.

25 A. I had concluded that. That's fine.

1 Q. And if you could just indicate the persons who assumed the

2 positions within the Presidency after -- or upon December 17th, or the

3 position of president and the two vice-presidents.

4 A. Yes. Basically, the constitution was amended to provide for a

5 president and two vice-presidents. But until the possibility of holding

6 elections, the Assembly elected -- itself elected Dr. Karadzic as

7 president of the republic and elected Drs. Koljevic and Plavsic as

8 vice-presidents.

9 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, if I could direct your attention next

10 to tab 218 of binder 15.

11 Q. This is the 24th Session of the National Assembly or People's

12 Assembly of Republika Srpska, held on 8 January 1993.

13 Mr. Treanor, if I could direct your attention to page 55 of the

14 English and page 12 of the B/C/S. A few highlighted remarks or a portion

15 of the remarks by Mr. Radic.

16 A. Yes. I could just say that this session was primarily devoted to

17 a discussion of the peace negotiations that were going on at this point in

18 Geneva. Mr. Radic is a deputy, had originally been elected to the Council

19 of Municipalities from Ilijas. Here we can see him addressing the issue

20 of the possibility, or it seems to be the impossibility, of the different

21 communities living together.

22 Q. And the portion of Mr. Radic's remarks which you have highlighted

23 appear toward the top of the page and read: "Believe me when I say that

24 we cannot live together any more. I don't know under what conditions we

25 could live together now. I have to be honest and say that they caused so

1 much evil to us, and this time we did not cause less evil for them

2 either."

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. If I could direct your attention next to page 79 of that session,

5 page 20 of the B/C/S.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, was there a problem or ...

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Something the

8 Prosecutor said, page 12, but on page 12 we see Mr. Mladic speaking.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I was already a bit surprised that page 55 would

10 correspond to page 12, because you need very dense script. Could you

11 perhaps verify, Mr. Tieger, where to find the ...

12 THE WITNESS: The session could be in two parts and the second

13 part numbered separately.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That seems to be correct.

15 Mr. Krajisnik, we have a second start of numbering pages, and on

16 the top of page 12 in the second part, it seems to me that Mr. Radic

17 starts speaking. You've found it?

18 Please proceed, Mr. --

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 MR. TIEGER:

21 Q. The highlighted portion referred to now also appears in that

22 second part of the B/C/S, at page 30 of that second part, and page 79 of

23 the English.

24 Now, the highlighted portion here indicates remarks by

25 Mr. Krajisnik: "Savo, let me just explain why it isn't good. They want

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1 us to say that we are all the same. They really want to create one

2 nation, that we were all the same, only of different religion. We must

3 say that we are different, that they are a group of Turkish orientation."

4 And --

5 A. Yes. This is a comment on remarks by Savo Knezevic, who we have

6 met before. He is a Serbian Orthodox priest, as well as being a deputy.

7 Q. And the subject under discussion, Mr. Treanor? Perhaps before

8 that it would be better for the record to continue at least the

9 highlighted portion that I indicated before. That portion continues on to

10 the next page of the English translation, beginning: "Well, all right,

11 people, if we accept that they are some kind of a group, Turkish or I

12 don't know whose, then we simply give them aces to their hands to be an

13 independent nation. They will be more than happy to claim that they are

14 of Turkish origin, the same as the Siptars, develop theories that they are

15 of Iliric origin. Why, we should tell them what they really are. They

16 are unbelievers, a nation that is not a nation, that is to say, a nation

17 that would like to be a nation but has no arguments for a nation."

18 And with that --

19 A. Yes. As the Court can see below, Mr. Knezevic has a similar view,

20 saying that if they once used to be Serbs, as many people argue, they're

21 not any more.

22 Q. Mr. Knezevic's remarks appear immediately below the highlighted

23 portion of Mr. Krajisnik's, beginning: "Respected assembly of the Serbian

24 people, I think it is totally unnecessary and pointless to bring back to

25 Serbism those who had left it." And concluding: "However, the speaker is

1 correct, they are the sect. And don't let us bring them back to Serbism,

2 please."

3 And you've also highlighted Mr. Krajisnik's subsequent remarks

4 immediately following: "Shall we then now take the Muslims out of Serbism

5 forever. All right, gentlemen, can we now make up our mind and take a

6 position that the Muslims as a nation are the communistic creation. We do

7 not accept this artificial nation. We believe that the Muslims are a

8 sect, a group or party, of Turkish provenance." Then he goes on to put

9 those conclusions to a vote, asking who is in favour, who is against, or

10 abstaining. And the highlight concludes: "Gentlemen, thank you, we

11 adopted the conclusions." It says, "anonymously." I presume that's a

12 translation error which should read "unanimously," but you'll need --

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct. And this is a reflection of an

14 idea we've seen before, that is, that the Muslims were at the -- at best a

15 new nation and something invented by the former communist rulers.

16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, if I could next direct the Chamber's

17 attention to tab 242. In binder 16. I'm sorry. I erroneously indicated

18 tab 242. That is tab 219.

19 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask for the transcript, the last words by

20 the witness is between brackets unanimously. Could you please -- I do not

21 recollect you to speak this word. Or am I mistaken, Mr. Treanor?

22 THE WITNESS: I interject when Mr. Tieger surmised that the word

23 "anonymously" should in fact read "unanimously," and I interjected.

24 Unanimously.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

1 THE WITNESS: -- to confirm that.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I now understand. So "unanimously" should be, as a

3 matter of fact, the first word you spoke in that answer, or is that wrong?

4 THE WITNESS: Well, I think I was interjecting at that point --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 THE WITNESS: -- into Mr. Tieger's comment.

7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I could focus on the transcript for a

8 moment. The last line that I spoke I believe should read: "It says

9 'anonymously.' I presume that's a translation error. That means

10 'unanimously.'" And that is the point at which --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's where it went wrong in the transcript.

12 So we do understand that the word "unanimously," as spoken by you, is the

13 last word on page 46, line 17. But paging might be a bit of a problem,

14 because we started only halfway. But it has been clarified sufficiently,

15 I would say. Please, then, proceed.

16 MR. TIEGER:

17 Q. Turning next to an enlarged session --

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

20 MR. TIEGER:

21 Q. Turning next, then, to a session of the Council for Reconciliation

22 held on 9 January 1993 and found at tab 219. First of all, Mr. Treanor,

23 we see here a body we haven't encountered before. Perhaps you can

24 illuminate the Court on that before we look at the contents.

25 A. Yes. This is a council for -- perhaps the title could be more

1 comprehensibly rendered as the Council for the Reconciliation of Positions

2 on State Policy. The council is composed of members - I'm sorry - of

3 representatives from the various Serbian entities, including the new

4 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the Republic of Serbia, Republic of

5 Montenegro, and Republika Srpska, and the Republic of Serbian Krajina, in

6 Croatia.

7 The president of this council is Dobrica Cosic, who at that time

8 was the president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Attending this

9 meeting is a large group of officials from the various entities I

10 mentioned, including Slobodan Milosevic, Radovan Karadzic, Nikola

11 Koljevic, Momcilo Krajisnik, and Ratko Mladic.

12 The basic task of this council is to coordinate policy among those

13 various entities, in particular, in relation to the hostilities which are

14 in fact still going on despite the declaration of the Bosnian Serb

15 Assembly a few weeks earlier that the war was over.

16 Q. Mr. Treanor, if I could direct your attention to a highlighted

17 portion that appears at page 96 of the English, page 95 of the B/C/S.

18 A. Here we have Dr. Karadzic speaking, addressing some of the -- some

19 issues connected with the strategic goals which we have seen, indicating

20 that the border on the Neretva was not nearly as important as the

21 achievement of the strategic goals in the -- what is called here Podrinje,

22 that is, the Drina Valley, and Posavina, the valley of the Sava River.

23 That is the corridor which would link north-eastern Bosnia to western

24 Bosnia. The paper being referred to is, of course, a paper that's being

25 considered in the context of the international negotiations going on.

1 Q. And if we could turn next to a highlighted portion which is

2 actually found earlier at page 94 in the English, page 92 of the B/C/S.

3 A. Yes. Here Dr. Karadzic is responding to a remark by Mr. Mile

4 Paspalj, who was one of the representatives present from the Republic of

5 Serbian Krajina. He stated that they had never made any incursions into

6 the Republic of Croatia and had remarked that the international

7 negotiators were attempting to disarm them, in fact. Here Dr. Karadzic is

8 advising him on how to respond to Croatian attacks.

9 Q. And the highlighted remark by Dr. Karadzic reads: "You should

10 invade them. For each person killed by a sniper, you should kill ten

11 Croats. That is the only solution. You are entitled to retaliation."

12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I see you looking at the clock, and I

13 can also see that it's 1.45.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I was looking at the clock. That's correct. And

15 it's time to stop.

16 I would like to ask the parties to remain standby on from 3.30

17 this afternoon. I cannot promise you that we'll start at 3.30, because

18 this Chamber will first hear a plea on an amended indictment and then

19 we'll have a status -- one of the Judges of the Chamber will have a Status

20 Conference, which means that we cannot be sure that we could start at that

21 time. But since everyone preferred to finish this Friday, and since it

22 seems to be possible, because, Mr. Tieger, you've spent a little bit over

23 22 hours now on examination-in-chief. On the basis of your schedule, it

24 should be possible for you to finish this afternoon.

25 I see that both you and Ms. Loukas are standing, and apart from

1 that, Madam Registrar would like to say something to me.

2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar suggests that the parties are all

4 present in Courtroom II at 2.30, and you'll then be informed what to

5 expect, whether we'll need another half hour or that we could start right

6 away or that we need another 10 to 15 minutes. Yes, Mr. Tieger,

7 Ms. Loukas.

8 Did I say 2.30? Yes. And I meant to say 3.30. It's good to have

9 an opportunity to make some mistakes as well.

10 MS. LOUKAS: So I take it, therefore, Your Honour, we don't need

11 to remove our books and what have you, and folders, from this courtroom.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because we go to Courtroom II, and we are now

13 in 3.

14 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, we're going to go to Courtroom II this

15 afternoon.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we have to move everything.

17 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, I see. So everything has to be removed from this

18 courtroom, and we have to appear in Courtroom II, and we may or may not

19 begin at 3.30.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And of course, it would have been more

21 comfortable to stay in this courtroom, but unfortunately that's not

22 possible.

23 Mr. Tieger.

24 MS. LOUKAS: There's just one further matter, Your Honour --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

1 MS. LOUKAS: -- if I may.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 MS. LOUKAS: Just in terms of the rest of the proceedings. Of

4 course, the last document we looked at was dated outside the indictment

5 period. Of course, just because something's dated outside the indictment

6 period doesn't mean that there's not necessarily probative value, but I

7 would be seeking that it would be appropriate -- for example, I think that

8 the last highlighted portion was not particularly probative, I would

9 submit, and if, perhaps, while we are dealing with a document that's

10 outside the indictment period, that perhaps a little more attention could

11 be paid to what's more particularly probative out of the document.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you could use the break we'll have, you,

13 Mr. Tieger, to explain to Ms. Loukas and to see whether you can convince

14 her what the relevance is of the documents still to be presented and not

15 within the indictment period. And if you cannot convince her, then of

16 course we'll hear from Ms. Loukas, whatever objections she has in

17 presenting this evidentiary material.

18 Yes. If there's nothing else, we adjourn until 3.30 or later this

19 afternoon, in Courtroom II.

20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.48 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.

22 JUDGE ORIE: This continues this morning's session, so there is no

23 need to ask the registrar to call the case because it's just a break in

24 the same day.

25 I see Mr. Stewart, that you are back on the team again. Welcome.

1 Mr. Tieger, are you ready to continue the examination --

2 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: -- of Mr. Treanor?

4 Mr. Treanor, since it's the same day, I didn't give you any

5 instruction when you left this morning. I didn't give you any reminders.

6 Now you entered again the courtroom this afternoon.

7 THE WITNESS: I didn't need any, Your Honour.

8 MR. TIEGER:

9 Q. Mr. Treanor, before we move on to the next document, I wanted to

10 raise a matter that was raised shortly before the last break. We looked

11 at the 22nd [20th of December] Assembly session held in November of 1992.

12 That was contained at tab 13 -- 213. Excuse me. And one of the

13 highlights was Mrs. Plavsic's remarks about paramilitary formations, her

14 efforts to gather men to fight for Serbianhood and her sending of letters

15 to Arkan, Seselj, and Jovic, and in that connection I think you indicated

16 that the reference to Jovic might be to Borisav Jovic, member of the

17 collective Presidency of SFRY. I wanted to clarify that because this

18 Chamber has previously heard evidence about a paramilitary leader, head of

19 unit group called the White Eagles in -- operating in Bosnia whose name

20 was Mirko Jovic, and for that reason I wanted to ask you if you had

21 particular information that the reference to Jovic was Borisav Jovic, or

22 might indeed be another Jovic?

23 A. No, I don't. I have to confess my knowledge of paramilitary

24 formations is rather limited, so I was not familiar with that name.

25 Q. If we could move next, then, to tab 220. That is the January

1 21st, 1993, enlarged session of the Council for Reconciliation, or

2 Coordination, positions on state policy.

3 A. Yes. We've already seen the previous session of this council.

4 Q. This is --

5 A. I'd like to clarify that I'm not precisely sure who members of

6 this council were since its formation is not recorded in any document that

7 is available to us. We see here a list of people who attended. It is

8 described as an expanded session, however, so it's possible that many of

9 the people were not actually members of the council.

10 Mr. Cosic is described, however, as the -- in the previous

11 minutes, at least, as the -- let me double-check that -- as the president

12 of the council.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could we please stop for a moment. We have -- yes.

14 It's -- well, I abuse the interruption for asking for one clarification.

15 If we are talking about tab 220, Mr. Tieger, I think on line 16 of page 1

16 you said it was the 20th of January where I read the 21st. Is that any --

17 is that -- no. Let me just see. Let me just check again.

18 MR. TIEGER: We certainly --

19 JUDGE ORIE: No -- yes. It might be 20 December. Could that have

20 been 20 November. I haven't got the other binders with me at this moment,

21 but Judge El Mahdi wondered if the 20th of December was the right date.

22 MR. TIEGER: I will simply defer to the witness who I believe has

23 the document in front of him. If not, we can double-check on the document

24 itself.

25 THE WITNESS: We are referring to the Council for the Coordination

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1 of Policy.

2 MR. TIEGER: Yes, that's correct.

3 THE WITNESS: The session we're considering now is the 21st of

4 January, 1993.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see whether -- I read on line 15 and 16:

6 "We looked at the 20th of December Assembly session held in November

7 1992."

8 MR. TIEGER: I understand, Your Honour. That previous reference

9 was to the 22nd Assembly session held in November 1992.

10 JUDGE ORIE: 22nd. So December was actually the 22nd.

11 MR. TIEGER: That's correct.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now it has been clarified. Please proceed.

13 MR. TIEGER:

14 Q. And again, Mr. Treanor, and for the Court's benefit, although I'm

15 not sure all the binders are available, we're at tab 220, the 21 January

16 1993 enlarged session of the Council for Coordination. I think you were

17 just finishing some remarks about the membership of that council.

18 A. Yes. I cannot confirm, for instance, that Dr. Karadzic,

19 Dr. Koljevic and Mr. Krajisnik were members of this council. As I said,

20 the exact membership is unknown to us. Only the participants in certain

21 meetings, and this one is certainly described as an expanded session,

22 which seems to leave open the possibility that non-members attended, but I

23 can say that this is only the second session that we know of that they

24 attend, and the previous session that they attended we considered earlier

25 this morning.

1 Q. Can I direct your attention then, Mr. Treanor, and the attention

2 of the Chamber to page 19 of that session, page 20 in the B/C/S.

3 A. Yes. These are remarks by Mr. Jovanovic, who is a Yugoslav

4 diplomat.

5 Q. Now, the highlighted portion of Mr. Jovanovic's remarks begin with

6 the second paragraph after he is identified as the speaker. In which he

7 says: "Therefore, the territorial link with Serbian and Montenegro, in

8 other words with Yugoslavia, has to be ensured in an indisputable way

9 which is not transitory."

10 Then he goes on to discuss what is more important and that is "to

11 make the territory that we get nationally homogenous as soon as possible."

12 And that continues on to the bottom of the page.

13 Reading: "Therefore this should be the goal, not to change the

14 topic of discussion, to the fact that a large number of Serbs have stayed

15 on in foreign provinces."

16 Then it continues to the next page: "We should grasp the

17 territories capable of functioning and encourage the migration of our

18 people in the direction of our provinces and others toward theirs. How to

19 do that, that is the thing to be wise about. But this should be, in my

20 opinion, our guiding thought. If this could be achieved it could be so as

21 soon as in a couple of years' time."

22 First of all, can you address Mr. Jovanovic's comments?

23 A. Yes. Here he is addressing from his perspective the desirability

24 of achieving ethnic homogenisation in order to assure the territorial

25 links between Serbia and Montenegro on the one hand and the Bosnian Serb

1 republic on the other.

2 Q. Now, after Mr. Jovanovic --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 MR. TIEGER:

5 Q. After Mr. Jovanovic expressed his view about the desirability and

6 necessity of ethnic homogenisation and asked whether it could be achieved

7 as soon as in a couple of years' time, Mr. Karadzic or Dr. Karadzic

8 responded and that portion is also highlighted. He's the next speaker.

9 A. Yes, indeed. And the places that he mentions here, Tuzla,

10 Sarajevo, and Zenica are areas that were under the control of the

11 internationally recognised Bosnian government, and in which there were

12 still Serbs living who the Bosnian Serb authorities were anxious to see

13 come and settle in the territories they controlled.

14 Q. Further on on that page, Dr. Karadzic speaks again and you've

15 highlighted that portion. And the highlighted portion reads: "I think

16 that this which Jovanovic is talking about has already happened to a huge

17 extent. There was 50/50 of us in Zvornik. The number of inhabitants of

18 Zvornik is the same, approximately 50.000, and they are all Serbs."

19 A. Yes. Now, here on the other hand, he is addressing a place which

20 has been under control of the Bosnian Serb authorities for quite some time

21 at this point, since probably April of 1992.

22 Q. If we turn to page 21 of the English, page 22 of the B/C/S, there

23 you've highlighted a portion where Mr. Krajisnik addresses the issues that

24 Mr. Jovanovic was talking about, and that highlighted portion at the

25 bottom of page 21 of the English is: "Let me start with what

1 Mr. Jovanovic was talking about and Radovan was also talking in that

2 direction. The problem is not 45 per cent of the territory and whether it

3 will be 55 per cent. The part they now took from ethnically pure Serbian

4 territories and gave to others, that is the biggest resource we had in our

5 territories."

6 A. Yes. Here Mr. Krajisnik is referring to the peace negotiations

7 and proposals for territorial division of Bosnia and the fact that under

8 some of the proposals under consideration the Bosnian Serb republic would

9 lose certain territories and that in the extent of those territories in

10 his view is not the important thing but the importance of the resources

11 that they would thereby lose.

12 Q. If you could turn next to a portion of that session that you've

13 highlighted contained on page 24. Some of the remarks of Dr. Koljevic

14 contained at the bottom of page 24 and page 26 of the B/C/S. That's the

15 last paragraph of that page which begins with Dr. Koljevic talking about

16 the impression I have about our people, indicating he's travelled a lot

17 around our Republika Srpska, and continuing to the bottom of the page and

18 continuing on the next page. And the highlighted portion on page 25 at

19 the top reads: "And we will have to develop the activity of settlement

20 homogenisation while there's still time. Only these are our affairs. We

21 will ask for your help when we need it. This is not for the conference."

22 A. Here Dr. Koljevic in turn is addressing the desirability of ethnic

23 homogenisation and the reference for the conferences, the peace conference

24 that is going on.

25 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, if I could next draw the Court's

1 attention and the witness's and counsel's attention to video binder 23.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do that you're finished with this document,

3 Mr. Tieger, or are you still in the middle of it? I had a question in

4 respect of Mr. Jovanovic.

5 Is he present in this meeting?

6 THE WITNESS: Vladislav Jovanovic?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

8 THE WITNESS: He speaks earlier in the meeting. He was the first

9 excerpt we considered.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I do not see him at the list of those

11 present. Did he -- just wondering whether there are any mistakes in that

12 or whether you would have any -- or am I mistaken? I --

13 THE WITNESS: I don't see him listed either, Your Honour. He

14 obviously spoke. Perhaps he wasn't of high enough a rank to --

15 JUDGE ORIE: I put the question to you because it could say

16 something about the reliability of these kind of documents as far as

17 presence of -- Of course, perhaps he's not a ghost speaker, but I just

18 wondered whether you have any additional information in that respect.

19 THE WITNESS: No, I don't, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I just directed the Court's attention to

22 video tab 33, intercept binder tab 33. And as before, this is a video,

23 and as before it will require a separate number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: May I just inquire, the CD has confidential on it.

25 Will this be an under-seal document?

1 MR. TIEGER: No, it wasn't.

2 THE REGISTRAR: It will then be Prosecution Exhibit number P70,

3 and the transcript of the intercept will be P70.A.

4 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, this is a video taken from a collection

5 of recordings of Serbian television made from -- made during the period

6 July 1992 to January 1993 and depicts Mr. Krajisnik.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if we could stop that and restart it

9 with sound.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 [Videotape played]

12 MR. TIEGER:

13 Q. Mr. Treanor?

14 A. Well, in this presentation, Mr. Krajisnik describes Bosnian Serb

15 territorial claims in terms of the -- both the ethnographic -- an

16 ethnographic map of Bosnia-Herzegovina and lines of military separation as

17 they existed at that particular time. He claimed that the line of

18 military separation coincided with the ethnographic map. I don't remember

19 his exact terms, but that's the substance of his remarks.

20 When the camera moved closer up to the map, it could be seen that

21 in fact there were, within the military lines held by the Bosnian Serb

22 forces, substantial areas that were indicated on the map as being

23 predominantly or largely non-Serb in population. The map that he was

24 using quite likely the map we see before us now. He described the desired

25 borders largely in terms of the strategic goals which had been mentioned

1 already, and he devoted quite a bit of attention to discussing the issue

2 of the Neretva, which had not been achieved militarily as indicated on

3 that -- the map that he was using.

4 As can be seen in this map, for instance, in -- along the Drina,

5 in the Drina valley, which was one of the important goals, we can see

6 large areas of Muslim population. Up in the north along the Sava, even

7 beyond the area that he indicated that they had not occupied, the small

8 enclave, even outside that area there are large areas that are shown here

9 as being non-Serbian. This again was one of their important strategic

10 goals, to secure the corridor in that region. And in Western Bosnia as we

11 will we can see large areas -- or some areas that were non-Serbian in

12 population.

13 So in fact, the coincidence of the military lines of confrontation

14 with the pre-war ethnic map is -- was certainly by no means perfect.

15 Indeed, far from it.

16 MR. TIEGER: For the record, Your Honour, the map on screen to

17 which Mr. Treanor has been referring is found at the maps and charts

18 binder, in tab 3 -- or 2. Excuse me.

19 Q. If we could turn back, then, to binder 16, tab 221 to a record of

20 the 34th Assembly session held on the 27th, 29th of August, and the 9th

21 and 10th of September and the 29th of September to the 1st of October,

22 1993.

23 Mr. Treanor, if I could first direct your attention to page 25 of

24 the English translation. Page 22 of the B/C/S.

25 A. Yes. First of all, I'd just like to point out as has been

1 mentioned, this session took place over the course of a number of days

2 spread out over a period of time of more than a month. The excerpts

3 were -- we'll be seeing come from earlier in the session, that is from the

4 August portion of the session on the 27th and 28th in particular.

5 The session was later on in September, punctuated, if you will, by

6 a sort of military mutiny that took place in Banja Luka in September 1993,

7 but these excerpts come before those particular events.

8 At this time, peace negotiations, however, are still continuing.

9 The Vance-Owen Plan by this point in time was, more or less, dead in that

10 form, but negotiations were continuing and modified plans were under

11 consideration.

12 Q. At the highlighted portion we see on -- at the top of page 25

13 reflect the remarks of Mr. Vjestica; is that correct?

14 A. Which page in the --

15 Q. Page 22 of the B/C/S.

16 A. I don't have the whole document here unfortunately. I thought

17 Mr. Krajisnik was speaking at this point. But I don't have the whole

18 document in front of me, so I can't confirm that.

19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, would it be possible for the usher to

20 provide Mr. Treanor with a copy of the B/C/S we have here.

21 THE WITNESS: Yes. This is the end of a long speech by

22 Mr. Vjestica, who we've met before and who is from Bosanska Krupa.

23 MR. TIEGER:

24 Q. In the highlighted portion, as you've indicated, are the

25 concluding three sentences of Mr. Vjestica's remarks, which begin: "And

1 gentlemen, since it is written in this agreement that everyone will be

2 able to go back to their own territory, that means that his people will be

3 going back to Velika Babic, and we will have to compensate everything we

4 destroyed and burned, and 17 mosques that we flattened. That means that

5 with Babic, they will get Radic too. They will get everything. That is

6 why I do not want to vote for that, and I cannot vote for that."

7 A. As we can see here, Mr. Vjestica who is discussing the area, the

8 situation in the area that he's from and is opposed to the idea of any

9 agreement that would allow Muslims to return to that area.

10 Q. If I could direct your attention next to page 33 of the English.

11 Page 31 of the B/C/S. At the top of the page 33 of the English

12 translation we see the speaker is Mr. Milinkovic.

13 A. Yes. He is a deputy, was originally elected to the Council of

14 Municipalities and is also -- was also the head of the SDS in Rudo, the

15 municipality that he's from.

16 Q. The portion that you've highlighted begins at the bottom of the

17 page, last sentence of that page: "Alija is offering and promising that

18 everyone can go back to their homes."

19 It continues onto the next page the first two sentences of that

20 page: "Gentlemen, there is no Serbian state in Bosnian pot without

21 gradual depopulation and relocating. If we want ethnically pure Serbian

22 state, and we do, don't we? If we all know and emphasise that we cannot

23 live with them, then we have to realise that these draft maps are offering

24 exactly that and there has to be relocation."

25 A. Here again we see a deputy advocating the idea of the maintenance

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1 of an ethnically pure Serbian state.

2 Q. If we could turn to page 48 of the English, page 46 of the B/C/S.

3 Here we find highlighted some remarks by Mr. Krajisnik. It appears from

4 the beginning of that, his comments on that page that he is reacting to

5 the comments of a previous speaker.

6 A. Mr. Kasagic is a deputy from the Bosnian Krajina, that is the area

7 around Banja Luka, and here we see Mr. Krajisnik desiring to keep that

8 particular area ethnically pure.

9 Q. The highlighted portion reads: "Let me tell you gentlemen,

10 Muslims and Croats ask for their municipality in Banja Luka which we did

11 not accept because we must have that territory clean."

12 And if we could turn to page 80 of this session in the English,

13 page 84 of the B/C/S. This page contains remarks by Dr. Karadzic, and the

14 highlighted portion occurs in the latter half of the page. It begins:

15 "We are the ones who preserve Krajina the most. Look what has been

16 stepped in from Krajina, 5.600 people from Kupres and 11.000 from Srvobrin

17 [phoen]. If we let this happen. I'm hoping for what Mladic said that

18 that actual state will be recognised, and the others who will lead to

19 recognition will be blamed but that is all. There are 500 to 600 Serbs

20 down south at Bihac, that is all. And we have preserved 250.000 places of

21 the living space where Muslims used to live."

22 A. Here Dr. Karadzic is referring to the possibilities for the influx

23 of Serbs who are living outside of the area presently, currently at that

24 time occupied by Bosnian Serb forces indicating that there is plenty of

25 room for them to live within that area.

1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, if we to turn next to tab 222. Behind

2 which will be found comments by Mr. Krajisnik at the 37th Assembly

3 session. Highlighted portion of those remarks contained at page 4 of the

4 tab portion would be the page enumerated 91 in the B/C/S, is contained in

5 approximately the middle of the page in which Mr. Krajisnik says: "The

6 factual situation is not like that. Believe me that the biggest tragedy

7 would be if the Muslims accepted to live together with us. You saw how

8 they were squeezing in with Croats but the Croats did not want it. We

9 would lose our state. That is the only thing that I would not accept. I

10 would accept, however that, we be granted a smaller percentage of

11 territory than we have now, provide that had we remain separated and that

12 we have our own state without Muslims."

13 A. Yes. And again, I'd remind the Court that peace negotiations were

14 still going on and various plans being considered for different ways to

15 partition the country.

16 Q. If you turn next to tab 223.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I notice that in tab 221, you made

18 already a selection of pages which, looking at the total number of 466

19 might be a very wise decision. On 222, we did not even find a cover page

20 saying what we find there. So we have to look that up. And the Chamber

21 would prefer to always have a cover page indicating what this is, because

22 there are a lot of chairpersons and there are a lot of speakers.

23 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. And we'll take care of that.

24 Q. Mr. Treanor, tab 223 contains a document entitled: Report on the

25 work of the People's Assembly of Republika Srpska from October 1991 to

1 October 1993.

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. And before I direct your attention to two of the portions of the

4 document that you've highlighted, are there any contextual remarks or

5 background necessary before we move on to those?

6 A. Well, I could only remark that, as is obvious from the title, that

7 this is a report that was drawn up about the work of the Assembly, and it

8 considers the -- the work of the Assembly different -- over different

9 periods of time, which it indicates, for instance, the pre-war period in

10 the first few months of the war, that type of thing, and discusses the

11 emphasis of the work of the Assembly during those particular periods.

12 Q. And turning now to page 5 of the document in English, page 4 to 5

13 of the document in B/C/S. We see a highlighted portion that appears

14 toward the bottom of the page and begins: "Most importantly the Assembly

15 laid out the strategic goals of the Serbian people in Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina and appealed to the people to achieve them." And then it

17 continues to the bottom of the page, ending --

18 A. Yes. This part of the report deals with the period in the work of

19 the Assembly immediately following the recognition of the independence of

20 Bosnia by the European Union. That is beginning on the 6th of April. And

21 I think it takes -- takes this consideration in this section through

22 September 1992, that is the -- considers the work of the 16th through the

23 22nd sessions.

24 Q. And if we turn to the next page, page 6 of the English, page 5 of

25 the B/C/S, the first sentence of the third paragraph is highlighted and

1 reads: "Besides permanently monitoring the situation and undertaking

2 measures aimed at training and equipping the army and other state

3 institutions to defend Republika Srpska, the Assembly also discussed the

4 issues that represented a break with the socialist system prevailing

5 hitherto in the former BH and Yugoslavia."

6 A. Yes. And this relates to the work of the Assembly during that

7 same period of time.

8 Q. Finally, Mr. Treanor, I'd like to direct your attention to the

9 50th Assembly session held on 15th -- the 15th and the 16th of April,

10 1995.

11 MS. LOUKAS: Just before --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Just before we move on from that document, I

14 think it would be useful to know if the witness could cast any light on

15 who prepared this document.

16 JUDGE ORIE: The 224?

17 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. No. The --

18 JUDGE ORIE: The next one to come or the last one --

19 MS. LOUKAS: The one we just dealt with, before we move on to the

20 next document.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's the report with the handwritten "2" on

22 it.

23 MS. LOUKAS: That's right. It's got a handwritten 2. "Report of

24 the work of the People's Assembly of Republika Srpska."

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us -- Could you answer that question,

1 Mr. Treanor?

2 THE WITNESS: All I can say about its authorship is derived from

3 what is indicated in the documents itself at the top of the first page,

4 the title page. It says "Republika Srpska, national assembly," and at the

5 bottom of the page indicates that it was prepared or finalised in Pale,

6 which was the centre at that time of the Bosnian Serb republic in October

7 1993, and it says the same thing at the very end of the document on page

8 15. At the end of the text of the document. At the end of the document

9 you have a table indicating the attendance of deputies at Assembly

10 sessions beginning with session 16.

11 JUDGE ORIE: But you have no further information as far as the

12 authorship and the source apart from the information you've just gave us?

13 THE WITNESS: Not at this time, Your Honour. With the ERN here

14 available, it might be possible to -- or it should be possible to

15 determine where this particular document or the copy we have of this

16 document was obtained.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

18 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Mr. Treanor, I just directed your attention to the 50th session of

20 the national assembly held in April of 1995 in Sanski Most.

21 A. Yes. Now, this is a -- was a very long session of the Assembly

22 held over a period of two days. It had a -- a long agenda, but the main

23 item on the agenda was a report on the military, political situation in

24 the RS, and this developed into an extensive discussion of the state of

25 military and political affairs -- affairs within RS.

1 Q. And if I could --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Mr. Treanor, you said it was held in April

3 1995. I take it that in the B/C/S original, I see 15th and 16th of April,

4 1995, where in the translation I only see a month and a date. Is that a

5 mistake, I take it?

6 THE WITNESS: Yes. In the original it does say 1995, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, a correct translation for this page would

8 also be required.

9 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would note that in connection with the

10 Court's earlier remarks, we have added pages to this binder, in particular

11 page 116 of the English. That was in response to remarks yesterday by the

12 Court. That page indicates the presence of Mr. Krajisnik as speaker of

13 this particular Assembly. That was an area of interest the Court

14 expressed the other day when this session came up in connection with other

15 remarks.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whenever a new page replaces an old one, could

17 you please always indicate which tab of the binder it belonged to?

18 Because otherwise we have to go -- Madam Registrar has to go through 224

19 tabs in order to find the right place where to insert it. So if that

20 could be done.

21 As I said before, we can make a note on our version, but of course

22 for the record it's important we have the correct page in place. Yes.

23 THE WITNESS: Maybe I should mention here, Your Honour, in

24 connection with what Mr. Tieger just mentioned, in connection with this

25 session and the sessions we just got finished considering, in particular

1 the post-1992 sessions that we've been just taking a few excerpts from, as

2 far as I've been able to determine, Mr. Krajisnik was not only in the

3 chair at the beginning of the session opening those sessions but continued

4 to be in the chair in those sessions during the period when the remarks

5 that we have highlighted here were made.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MR. TIEGER:

8 Q. And if I could then direct your attention, Mr. Treanor to page 145

9 of the English translation, page 176 of the B/C/S.

10 A. Yes. Now here we have Dr. Karadzic speaking, I believe.

11 Q. You've highlighted two portions of -- on that page.

12 A. This -- this is just before or within a page or -- a page of the

13 remarks we saw I believe yesterday about the selection of General Mladic.

14 Q. And the first highlighted portion begins at approximately the

15 middle of the page: "At the moment the war began in the municipalities,

16 where we were in the majority we had municipal power, held it firmly,

17 controlled everything. In the municipalities where we were in the

18 minority, we set up secret government municipal boards, municipal

19 assemblies, presidents of executive boards. You will remember the A and B

20 variants, and the B variant where we were in the minority, 20 per cent, 15

21 per cent, we had set up a government and a brigade, a unit, no matter what

22 size, but there was a detachment with a commander."

23 A. Yes, this is an interesting retrospective on the variant A and B

24 document.

25 Q. The other highlighted portion on that page begins in the lower

1 half of the page and says: "But it was the SDS which organised the people

2 and created the army. It was an army. Together with the police, those

3 who were the armed forces of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina, they created the space, liberated and created the space."

5 A. Yes. And this reflects the importance of the police which we saw

6 Dr. Karadzic emphasising at one of the March 1992 sessions where

7 delegates -- some of the deputies were pressing for the creation of a

8 National Guard, and he indicated that aside from having the JNA, the -- as

9 its -- its army, the Bosnian Serb authorities had under their control the

10 police, which were more than adequate, I believe he said on that occasion.

11 Q. Mr. Treanor, if you have nothing to add or no clarification

12 required, then I have concluded my examination-in-chief of Mr. Treanor.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

14 THE WITNESS: Yes. I have nothing else to add at this point.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

16 Mr. Treanor, as you might be aware of, this Chamber will not sit

17 during the next month and will start sitting again on the 13th of April.

18 Most likely we will then start with the cross-examination -- with your

19 cross-examination. So therefore, I just would like to be informed whether

20 you are available on and on from that date, because it might take a couple

21 of days.

22 THE WITNESS: Yes. No problem, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Then my instructions now last

24 for a longer period of time. That means up to early April. I'm also

25 aware that it's perhaps not that easy not to speak with anyone about your

1 testimony that you have given and you're still about to give because of

2 your position in the office of the OTP, but this Chamber is confident that

3 you'll strictly follow the instruction not to speak about your testimony,

4 not in a direct way but also not to have any indirect conversations on

5 issues that were raised during your examination.

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. I've been through this before for

7 an even longer period of time.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. I just wanted to stress the importance of

9 it.

10 Then Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Treanor out of the

11 courtroom.

12 [The witness stands down]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any issues to be raised by the parties? I

14 would have a few, but I'd first listen to the parties, whether there is

15 any issue to be raised prior to -- to adjourning for quite a long period

16 of time.

17 Ms. Loukas.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you for that opportunity, Your Honour.

19 There is one point that we on the Defence team have been discussing and

20 that -- in fact, it's a suggestion and it arose particularly in relation

21 to the evidence of this witness. Where there are documents to be dealt

22 with, we were wondering if perhaps it was possible -- I don't know if it's

23 possible to have even a split screen so that the -- you have both the

24 English and the B/C/S versions available so that in the sense the public

25 character of the Tribunal is improved in that way and, therefore, the

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1 accused also has access to the documents in that way. So I don't know if

2 the technology is available for that here, but it became particularly

3 apparent to us during the evidence of Mr. Treanor and the voluminous

4 nature of the documents, and I'm sure there are more documents to come

5 from other witnesses, whether or not something of that nature would be

6 possible.

7 JUDGE ORIE: What is immediately shown on our screen is that at

8 least two pages fit onto the screen, but whether this could be pages of

9 different documents is another matter.

10 Mr. Tieger, would you have any information in that respect?

11 MR. TIEGER: Only that of course that has been considered,

12 Your Honour. We have experimented with it. I think much more expensive

13 technology would be required and larger screens in order to -- I mean the

14 more information you put on the screen the less can actually be seen, and

15 under the current state of the technology, what we get is essentially two

16 documents you can't read.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I must say it's a bit surprising, because

18 especially in all Windows oriented programmes you very often can fit two

19 windows, so then you would have two programmes running at the same time.

20 Of course, I -- I take it, Ms. Loukas, this is not a solicitation for

21 getting all new screens at the Tribunal, but -- Mr. Tieger, you're --

22 MR. TIEGER: I just wanted to say, Your Honour, I didn't mean that

23 to be a blanket rejection of such possibilities. Of course we remain open

24 to the best method of presenting the available information. I was simply

25 trying to indicate that that was something that occurred to us before as

1 well, and thus far we're not aware of a solution. We're happy to keep

2 inquiring.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, Your Honour. We were just having a

5 discussion --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Put your microphone on. That's the first lesson in

8 technology.

9 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, Your Honour. We were just having a discussion

10 about that issue within the Defence team, and I think that we may have

11 other suggestions we can come up with in that area.

12 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber always prefers to have shared solutions,

13 so since we have some time available until the 13th of April, if could you

14 come up with a common solution that saves us time and -- why. Any further

15 issue?

16 MS. LOUKAS: Well, of course, Your Honour, it's not just a

17 question of saving time. It's also a question of ensuring that

18 Mr. Krajisnik has access in the courtroom to all the relevant documents.

19 But other than that issue at this stage, I have no further issues to

20 raise.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I hope that everyone has been aware that to the

22 extent the Chamber could assure that Mr. Krajisnik has got the proper

23 information as far as pages are concerned, or when there was a missing

24 document that the Chamber finds it of utmost importance that Mr. Krajisnik

25 can follow every single detail of what is presented in this courtroom.

1 Mr. Tieger, is there anything you'd like to raise?

2 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour, there's not.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then as I promised, I have a few matters, the

4 first being, but it's just a simple question, I take it that when we

5 receive certain pages of documents that the whole of the document is

6 accessible to the Defence, Mr. Tieger, perhaps even disclosed. I'm not

7 soliciting for getting also 3 or 400 pages of a document which might not

8 on every page be that relevant, but I take it that the Defence has an

9 opportunity to check whether who leaves the meeting, who comes back again.

10 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. I think that has been our

11 objective with one exception I might note in the English translation, and

12 that was we -- the portions of the speech of Mr. Krajisnik, and in that

13 regard we took up the Defence on a suggestion made long ago to than late

14 portions of documents, of extremely large documents that were considered

15 relevant and would be admitted and the Defence could then translate

16 portion -- any portion of the document that they considered should also be

17 translated. That was the -- in fact, the origin of the Novi Sad project

18 with which the Court may be familiar.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So at least the original is available to the

20 Defence so that they can identify other portions on which they would like

21 to have translations in order to create the context necessary for the

22 presentation of the Defence case and for cross-examination of witnesses.

23 I have two other issues. First of all, I think we indicated

24 before that the Chamber would very much like to have a short meeting with

25 counsel in Chambers to evaluate all kind of practical matters, speed,

1 scheduling, well, whatever, and wondered whether the parties, counsel of

2 the parties, would be available for that somewhere next week.

3 I'm asking because I can imagine that you have other plans.

4 Mr. Stewart, your body language tells me that you might not be that happy

5 with next week.

6 MR. STEWART: I don't know whether to feel encouraged or

7 discouraged that my body language is so obvious, Your Honour, but at least

8 it's form of communication. But Your Honour, the next week would be very

9 difficult, in fact, but the week after, if we could identify -- I don't

10 know how the Chamber's commitments are, but the week after if we could try

11 and identify a suitable date that would be much more satisfactory.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please get in touch, then, with the

13 legal officer Mr. Acquaviva, who is present today in the courtroom and he

14 will try to find out whether there is a moment where Bench and parties

15 would be available.

16 The other thing that's already an indication, there have been some

17 problems in respect of the way the intercepts were played. What actually

18 happens is that we hear the B/C/S original, we read on our screens

19 English, and the English is not spoken. At the same time, this English is

20 translated into French, and the French text being spoken by the

21 interpreter appears in the transcript. That means that we have unbalanced

22 transcripts because there is no English text in it, but there is a French

23 transcript. So we have a lot of empty English pages just saying "No

24 translation." This is not a very satisfactory solution. We all know that

25 the English text appears in the exhibits, the transcripts of the

1 intercepts, but the Chamber suggests for the future that if similar

2 intercepts are played that after a short warning, everyone moves to the

3 B/C/S channel so that we can hear the original language. We can read the

4 English on the screen. At the same time, the English text is then

5 pronounced by the English booth and is -- the text is translated into

6 French and the French is also pronounced by the interpreters. As a result

7 of that, we would have a balanced transcript where it would not be

8 necessary to look at all the videotapes in order to find out -- or to look

9 in the exhibits in order to find out what words were actually on our

10 screen.

11 This is just a suggestion, but it's one of the technical problems

12 we faced, and the Chamber has decided not to change the system for the

13 last one or two intercepts although we were already aware of that problem

14 at that moment.

15 I'd like the parties to think about this solution which guarantees

16 that we have more complete transcripts of the court sessions later on and

17 would better meet one of the standards in this Tribunal that every word

18 appears in the transcript.

19 Is there any other matter to be raised at this moment? And I'm

20 not only looking to the parties, to the counsel, but also Mr. Krajisnik.

21 Is there anything you'd like to raise at this very moment because you will

22 not have an opportunity for the next five or six weeks.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

24 All I wish to do is thank you for making it possible for me to -- to

25 follow these proceedings. I had for a long while been quite a passive

1 participant in these proceedings, which was very bad for me. It would be

2 better, though, if I could also follow the reading of the text on the

3 monitor, which would make a great deal of difference. I would be better

4 able in that way to assist my counsel as well.

5 Thank you very much again, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the Prosecution has explained that,

7 although it has no solution yet in mind, it will still reconsider whether

8 it will be possible to have the originals, the B/C/S originals, also on

9 the screen. This is not a guarantee but at least we'll look to solve this

10 problem.

11 Being there are no other issues to discuss at this moment, we will

12 adjourn until the 13th of April. I do not know yet in what courtroom, but

13 we've got only three, so the Chamber's confident that you'll be able to

14 find the right courtroom.

15 I know that it's not holiday, the next few weeks, that's true for

16 everyone. That's true for you, I take it, Mr. Krajisnik. It's true for

17 the counsel. It's true for the Chamber as well. So I wish you a very

18 fruitful period of five to six weeks where we do not see each other.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.13 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of April,

21 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

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