1 Wednesday, 26 May 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would you

6 please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. Good morning. This is Case

8 Number IT-00-39-T, The Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Ms. Loukas, I hope that you believe me that what I'm going to say

11 now didn't come up in my mind over the last five minutes, but already

12 yesterday. Yesterday, we were confronted with a sometimes very

13 repetitious questioning of the accused -- of the witness. For example, I

14 think you asked him three, four, five times that he certainly as a lawyer

15 would be aware that a statement should be complete. The Chamber does not

16 consider this repetition to very much assist the Chamber. So therefore,

17 I'm not saying this in order to regain time lost, but we had this already

18 in our minds yesterday. We discussed it among the Judges. So would you

19 please keep that in mind. I'd rather speak about this in the absence of

20 the witness. That's why I asked the witness not to be in the courtroom at

21 this very moment.

22 But Mr. Usher, would you now escort the witness into the

23 courtroom.

24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, do you want to note the record of who is

25 appearing today for?

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see there are some changes. And I should have

2 mentioned that yesterday. Mr. Stewart was mentioned yesterday as being

3 absent.

4 Good morning, Mr. Karabeg. Mr. Hannis, for the record.

5 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. Tom Hannis for the Office of the

6 Prosecutor. I'm assisted by Mr. Timothy Resch, and our case manager

7 acting today is Mr. Willem Wijermars.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. He already replaced yesterday in the middle of

9 the court hearing Mrs. Annink-Javier. Thank you.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Karabeg.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

13 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you that you are still bound by the

14 solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony the day

15 before yesterday. The cross-examination --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.

17 JUDGE ORIE: The cross-examination will now continue.

18 Ms. Loukas, please.

19 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 WITNESS: MIRZET KARABEG [Resumed]

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Cross-examined by Ms. Loukas: [Continued]

23 Q. Now, Mr. Karabeg, when we left off yesterday, we were dealing with

24 the question of what was contained in your statement. Do you recall that?

25 A. Yes, I do.

1 Q. And just in relation to that, we got to the point where it's the

2 fact that in your statement it's not stated -- you haven't mentioned any

3 names in that particular paragraph, paragraph 12, that we were dealing

4 with.

5 MS. LOUKAS: Perhaps if the witness might have the numbered

6 paragraph statement before him.

7 Q. Yes, I think you have it before you now, Mr. Karabeg. So that's

8 the point to which we got to yesterday, where I was asking questions about

9 the fact that you did not -- you've stated there in your statement, "He

10 did not mention any names." And of course, you haven't in your statement

11 mentioned anywhere the names Krajisnik or Brdjanin. Agreed?

12 A. Agreed.

13 Q. Now, the fact is you did not mention the names Brdjanin or

14 Krajisnik in your Bosnian statement. That's correct, isn't it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Nor in your -- nor to Ms. Brenda Hollis when she was taking your

17 1997 statement, the outline. That's correct, isn't it?

18 A. You see, that wasn't of interest to me at the time. What was of

19 interest to me were the people who incarcerated me and did what they did

20 to me. So that is why it wasn't interesting to me and I didn't mention

21 it. Now, of course, again I would present a whole set of new facts

22 because I learned a lot since then. I never even imagined when I made the

23 statement that I would ever be sitting here today in court as a witness in

24 the Krajisnik trial. And perhaps had I ever imagined that, maybe some

25 names would have been mentioned. But all I did was to present the

1 sequence of events in my statement, the sequence of events as they

2 happened. So this is only a very small, minute part of what happened to

3 me from the 25th of May 1992 to the 31st of October 1992. So it's a very

4 tiny small excerpt from my life.

5 Q. Now, Mr. Karabeg, we only have a limited time for

6 cross-examination, so it would help if you actually answered the question

7 and answered it in rather not a speech. Do you understand me,

8 Mr. Karabeg?

9 A. I will answer with a yes or with a no. But don't you hold

10 speeches to me either and I will just give you yes or no answers, nothing

11 more than that.

12 Q. Mr. Karabeg, I don't want to get into an argument with you. I

13 just want you to agree with me that you did not mention it in your Bosnian

14 statement or in your 1997 statement or your 1999 statement. None of those

15 statements. That's true, isn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, indeed, when you put together your corrections in May 2002,

18 just prior to giving evidence in the Brdjanin trial, you didn't put that

19 in your correction statement either, did you, Mr. Karabeg, this question

20 of Brdjanin or Krajisnik?

21 A. I don't really remember.

22 Q. And -- well, I don't want to waste time by presenting the

23 correction statement.

24 MS. LOUKAS: I take it the Prosecution concedes it doesn't appear

25 in the correction statement.

1 MR. HANNIS: We agree with that, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then that's clear for everyone.

3 MS. LOUKAS:

4 Q. Now, the other aspect, Mr. Karabeg, is that of course when you put

5 together your correction statement just prior to giving evidence in the

6 Brdjanin trial, you knew you were giving evidence in the Brdjanin trial,

7 did you not?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. But you didn't put the name Brdjanin and Krajisnik in that

10 statement either. That's correct, isn't it?

11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, he has already answered that question.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 MS. LOUKAS: It's the fact that he knew at that stage that he was

14 giving evidence.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think the statement was never corrected and

16 the Chamber considers this witness of a level of competence that he would

17 have known where he was testifying, in what case, and what it was about.

18 So it's entirely clear the point you make. So if needed, one more

19 question about it, but then it has been sufficiently dealt with.

20 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Okay. So we come to the Brdjanin/Talic trial, and then you have

22 this to say at pages 6096 of the transcript. It's page 6096 of the

23 Brdjanin -- the transcript in the trial against Mr. Brdjanin and the late

24 General Talic. You were asked this question: "What did he say to you

25 about the integration of Sanski Most into the Banja Luka region?" And you

1 said: "He said that they didn't put it forward as yet, but they will, and

2 they will place it on the agenda under pressure from Banja Luka, that is,

3 the pressure exerted by Krajisnik and Brdjanin."

4 Now, do you know where Mr. Krajisnik's from?

5 A. No, I don't. I should just like to say in response that Vrkes

6 didn't come to me and said nothing special. It was an agreement with

7 respect to the purchase of an apartment, and he was purchasing an

8 apartment from a man I knew. And we sat down, it was just by chance --

9 Q. [Previous interpretation continues]... all I'm asking you is that

10 this is what you said in the Brdjanin and Talic trial. That you placed it

11 on the agenda under pressure from Banja Luka, that is, the pressure

12 exerted by Krajisnik and Brdjanin. Are we agreed on what you stated in

13 that particular trial?

14 A. I said that as far as the name goes is true when it comes to

15 Krajisnik, but that I was not sure whether it was Brdjanin or Kupresanin,

16 which of the two.

17 Q. Sorry. That last answer. Are you saying you're not sure whether

18 it was Brdjanin and Krajisnik or Krajisnik and Kupresanin now?

19 A. I don't know what you want.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand what you want

22 from me.

23 JUDGE ORIE: -- if we are referring to transcripts, the Chamber

24 has not the relevant page in front of it at this very moment. So we can't

25 check it. But I take it that the Prosecution has. Let's assume that

1 whatever is in the transcript, unless it's highly improbable, that we

2 accept that this transcript, made under the responsibility of the

3 Registry, reflects the words of the witness at that time. So therefore,

4 you can confront the witness with the fact that he said that.

5 MS. LOUKAS: Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. You can put questions.

7 MS. LOUKAS:

8 Q. So in any event, Mr. Karabeg, you concede that what your answer

9 was in the former trial was, "He said he didn't put it forward as yet, but

10 they will and they will place it on the agenda under pressure from Banja

11 Luka, that is, under pressure exerted by Krajisnik and Brdjanin." Now you

12 agree that that's what you said on the last occasion, when you gave

13 evidence in the other trial. Are we agreed there?

14 A. I don't remember having said that. I'd like to see it, where that

15 is.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karabeg, that's on the transcript from that --

17 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, that is what he said, according to the

18 transcript. We agree to that.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karabeg, it has just been read to you what is on

20 the transcript. The transcript is made, and it's a literal report of what

21 you said. If you say "I don't remember," that's fine. If you say "I

22 didn't say that," we'll then check it. If you say "I don't remember but

23 it could be," then we take it --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'd like to check it. I don't

25 know. I don't know which number the document and line is. I have it -- I

1 have the document, but I don't know what the line was where I said that in

2 the transcript. 27, 97, 57, what? I would like to see it myself. What

3 are you reading from? I would like to see what you are reading from.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I think Ms. Loukas is reading from -- I'll read it to

5 you. Ms. Loukas, do you have that, because we only have a transcript of

6 the cross-examination. Would you have a copy for me? Mr. Usher, could

7 you...

8 MS. LOUKAS: Page 6096, as I indicated earlier, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll not look at your notes, Ms. Loukas, apart

10 from not being able to read them.

11 Mr. Karabeg, this is a transcript of your testimony in the -- I do

12 not find a date at this very moment.

13 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, that was from Monday, the 27th of May

14 2002. And perhaps we should advise him as well that we do not have a

15 transcript version of the transcript.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have a transcript in English. All your

17 words spoken in your own language are immediately translated into English

18 and French, and this is what the English text says, your testimony on the

19 27th of May. Yes. Question and answer is a bit confused here. I'll read

20 to you the questions and the answer. The question was: "Now, as far as

21 Sanski Most integrating into the Banja Luka region, did you ever discuss

22 this matter with any of the senior SDS members at Sanski Most?" Your

23 answer was: "Yes, I did discuss it with the president of the municipal

24 board of SDS of Sanski Most, with Brkic."

25 "And what did he say to you about the integration of Sanski Most

1 into the Banja Luka region?" "He said that they didn't put it forward as

2 yet, but that they will, and they will place it on the agenda under

3 pressure from Banja Luka, that is, from the pressure exerted by Krajisnik

4 and Brdjanin."

5 Next question was: "Now, did he specifically mention those two

6 names to you, Krajisnik and Brdjanin, as far as you can remember, that

7 that's where the pressure was coming from in Banja Luka?" Your answer

8 was: "Yes, he did, because we were really exceptionally close, we had

9 very good relations. There was empathy between the two of us. Don't

10 misunderstand it. That person studied in Novi Sad, but he was from Sanski

11 Most, and our first contacts were such that we then became friends."

12 Then about the name, next question is: "Now, Mr. Karabeg, in the

13 transcript it says that the president of the municipal board of the SDS of

14 Sanski Most was Brkic. Can you give the Court the full name of this man

15 that you're speaking about, this man with whom you had empathy." And then

16 you answered: "Vlado Vrkes is the name."

17 I read to you the testimony you gave in the -- does this sound

18 familiar to you?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, please return the transcript to

21 Ms. Loukas.

22 Ms. Loukas will put questions to you on this issue and your

23 testimony.

24 MS. LOUKAS:

25 Q. Now, Mr. Karabeg, His Honour has read to you the relevant portions

1 from your previous testimony in the Brdjanin/Talic case. Now, when you

2 gave evidence in this particular case on Monday, the 24th of May, you gave

3 this evidence: "And because we were good friends and we were close" -

4 referring to Vrkes - "I asked him how come you want to place this on the

5 agenda now at this point for the first time?" And he said that they had

6 received an order to that effect in Banja Luka. He said that this was

7 done pursuant to an order issued by Krajisnik, an instruction by

8 Krajisnik. And then I asked him whether it was pursuant to an order by

9 Brdjanin, but he didn't know exactly who was the person who issued the

10 specific order."

11 Now, that's what you said on page 97 of the transcript on Monday,

12 the 24th of May 2004, a couple of days ago. Do you remember that?

13 A. Well, if that's what it says, let it stand. Let it remain so.

14 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Karabeg, we've all already been through the fact

15 that it doesn't appear in any of your statements. It appears for the

16 first time in the Brdjanin and Talic trial, and then all you're talking

17 about in Brdjanin and Talic is pressure. When you come to give evidence

18 in this court, you've stepped it up a notch 12 years after the event. Now

19 it's pursuant to an order issued by Krajisnik, an instruction by

20 Krajisnik. Now, you never said anything like that in your Brdjanin and

21 Talic evidence, did you? You have to agree with that, Mr. Karabeg.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So moving on to the next topic, yesterday we were dealing with the

24 fact that you said you saw Talic on TV and you also saw Krajisnik there

25 and you would not concede that you were possibly mistaken about that. Do

1 you recall that?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. And of course, that's another topic on which it doesn't appear in

4 your Bosnian statement, doesn't appear in your 1997 statement, doesn't

5 appear in your 1999 statement, and doesn't appear in the corrections. I

6 take it the Prosecution will concede that.

7 MR. HANNIS: We agree he does not mention Krajisnik by name as

8 being in that televised report.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 MS. LOUKAS:

11 Q. Okay. And of course yesterday, when dealing with this particular

12 topic, you went from saying in your evidence in chief "I believe" to

13 saying in cross-examination that you're more certain, to saying you

14 probably saw him but refusing to concede that it was a possibility you

15 didn't. Are we agreed on those propositions?

16 A. I do, but you only contributed to that with your way of examining.

17 Q. Well, I won't get into an argument with you, Mr. Karabeg. The

18 fact is you don't mention any of these matters in your statements, but

19 when you come to court, you seem to add additional matters. Would you

20 agree with that?

21 A. As I have indicated, it's because of the chronology of the events

22 that one feels it is necessary to add something. So yes, I agree.

23 Q. Now -- and of course, this meeting that you've referred to in

24 March 1991, there's nothing about that meeting in any of your statements -

25 your Bosnian statement, the 1997 statement, the 1999 statement, your

1 correction statement - this meeting that you say occurred in March 1991

2 where you received an invitation that was left on your desk. There's

3 nothing about that in any of your statements either, is there,

4 Mr. Karabeg?

5 A. There is still a lot which I experienced during that period of

6 time but I failed to mention. Like I said yesterday, I'm not a robot, I'm

7 not a computer. It is simply impossible for me to remember everything at

8 once. Because at the time I was giving my statement, I talked about the

9 things that were on my mind at the time, that I felt I was able to talk

10 about. And there was no mention of the possibility of my being a witness

11 or giving a statement about such-and-such person.

12 Q. You're saying that when the Prosecution took your statement from

13 you, they didn't tell you that you might be possibly called as a witness

14 in cases?

15 A. Yes. Yeah, they merely took a statement. They never said

16 anything about that. Because a number of people gave a statement but were

17 never called upon to testify.

18 Q. Well, I won't mention the fact that you're a lawyer again,

19 Mr. Karabeg. I'm moving on to this meeting. Now, in relation to this

20 particular meeting, when you gave evidence about that on Monday, you said

21 that when you went to this meeting, various statements were made,

22 including it was mentioned for the first time that Bosanska Krajina should

23 be cleansed of the non-Serb people, that is, that the media should be

24 stifled first, and then what have you. And then you went on to say that a

25 judge of the misdemeanor court spoke. He said that resources should be

1 obtained from the penalties and taxes accrued would be siphoned off to

2 this fund which would finance the functioning of Serbian media and Serbian

3 television, and you went on in that vein.

4 Now, when you gave evidence in the Brdjanin/Talic trial,

5 Mr. Karabeg - and that's at page 6071 for the Court - you didn't mention

6 anything about ethnic cleansing and you didn't mention anything about a

7 judge who wanted to siphon funds off and do these things. Do you concede

8 that?

9 A. You see, I don't remember at this point that I stated that it was

10 the president of the court from Srbac that the funds should be redirected.

11 I think I said that he indicated that he would redirect the funds that are

12 collected from taxes and fines, normally collected by the misdemeanors

13 court.

14 Q. Well, I'll read out to you what's transcribed, Mr. Karabeg. "And

15 I remember very well when Judge Srbac" - and I corrected that later to say

16 it was a judge from Srbac --

17 A. No, not Judge Srbac, the president of the misdemeanors court from

18 Srbac. I never said that his name was Srbac.

19 Q. I understand.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karabeg, Ms. Loukas is now reading from the

21 transcript. And as you certainly will remember, initially it was

22 translated to us as "Judge Srbac" and it was then later rectified that it

23 was the judge of Srbac. So please listen. That's not the main issue at

24 this moment. What follows is the main issue.

25 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

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13 English transcripts.

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1 MS. LOUKAS:

2 Q. So you said this: "... a judge of the misdemeanor court, said

3 that the resources obtained from the penalties and taxes accrued would be

4 siphoned off to this fund which would finance the functioning of Serbian

5 media and Serbia television and that the Ustasha and the balija medias or,

6 rather, the Sarajevo and the Zagreb media, and I mean television here,

7 should be marginalised as much as possible." Now, this addition of the

8 judge, that's new. You did not mention anything like that in your -- you

9 didn't mention anything about a judge wanting to do these things when you

10 gave evidence in the Brdjanin/Talic trial. Agreed?

11 A. I was talking about the president of the court. You have it. You

12 can check it in your documents. Well, if you think I'm not telling the

13 truth, but of course I'm under an oath.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Karabeg, the question is that where you

15 testified in this Court about these remarks of a judge, whether you did

16 not mention that judge or a judge when you testified in the Brdjanin and

17 Talic case. That's the question.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, Your Honour, when I say

19 chronology of events, I mean at one point I went back, but I had learned a

20 lot in the meantime, ever since I returned in Sanski Most. I know much

21 more now than I did at that point. I've taken also my notes, the notes

22 that I had at home, and I refreshed my memory.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karabeg, no one is blaming you for anything at

24 this moment, they're just about to establish what your testimony was in

25 the Brdjanin and Talic case. So the question was, whether for good

1 reasons or not is a different matter, the question is whether you

2 mentioned this judge or a judge who spoke during this meeting when you

3 testified in the Brdjanin case.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't because I did not remember

5 at the time.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That's a clear answer.

7 Ms. Loukas. Ms. Loukas might have some more questions because

8 you'll not be surprised, and let me also once refer to you as being a

9 lawyer, you'll not be surprised that Ms. Loukas and the Defence wonders

10 why you didn't mention it at the time and why you do mention it now.

11 That's an issue Ms. Loukas is interested in. So she'll put some questions

12 to you. Try to answer these questions just as simple as possible. Listen

13 to the question and give the answer to the best of your knowledge.

14 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

15 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour. There's just a correction to

16 the transcript. In response to --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me for just a second, please.

18 I'm not only a jurist, I'm also a lawyer, an attorney.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I didn't -- I think I said -- I think I said as

20 being a lawyer, so I didn't mean to say anything else than a lawyer, which

21 is a very general description.

22 Ms. Loukas, you'd like to make a correction -- or to suggest that

23 the transcript contains an error?

24 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. In response to a question from

25 me. The response is at page 14, line 9: "I was talking about the

1 president of the court. You have it. You can check it in your

2 documents." I understand that that was apparently mistranslated, Your

3 Honour, and part of the answer included "You can check it through your

4 lines in Banja Luka."

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it can be checked. I had some difficulties in

6 finding it because my LiveNote had a late start this morning, so I've got

7 it at a different place.

8 But Mr. Karabeg, it is translated to us, one of your answers, as

9 "I was talking about the president of court. You have it. You can check

10 it in --" and it reads in our transcript "your documents." And the

11 Defence asks our attention for the fact that you said not "you can check

12 it in your documents" but you said a different thing in your own language.

13 Could you repeat what you said in this respect. It was just prior to

14 saying "If you think I'm not speaking" --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A few minutes ago? A couple of

16 minutes ago, I said that I could check it through my connections. I

17 wasn't referring to the Court but to the Defence.

18 JUDGE ORIE: It's a bit confusing to me at this moment.

19 Ms. Loukas, how important is it that it should be --

20 MS. LOUKAS: Clarified at this time?

21 JUDGE ORIE: -- clarified? Is it a vital part of the testimony or

22 is it just some kind of an in between remark?

23 MS. LOUKAS: Not important at this particular time, I don't think,

24 Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

1 MS. LOUKAS: I think we can move on.

2 I take it the Prosecution concede there's nothing stated about

3 ethnic cleansing or this particular judge in the Brdjanin/Talic trial.

4 MR. HANNIS: I agree that nothing was said about the particular

5 judge. I would direct counsel and the Court's attention to page 6072,

6 lines 12 through 18, which, although it does not specifically use the term

7 "ethnic cleansing" we think it is something that could be interpreted as

8 referring to that topic.

9 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, but I am referring to the term "ethnic

10 cleansing." So I think the Prosecution concedes the term "ethnic

11 cleansing" doesn't appear and evidence about the judge doesn't appear.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I fully understand that whenever reference is

13 made to any page which is the examination-in-chief, the Chamber does not

14 have it in front of it, so we would like then to receive the specific

15 pages, not the whole of it, so that we at least can understand what you

16 said. Please proceed.

17 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Your Honour, I'd like a Defence document to be placed before the

19 witness. That's document "Agreement on the Formation of a Community of

20 Bosnian Krajina Municipalities, dated 29th April 1991."

21 JUDGE ORIE: Is this a new document or an existing document?

22 MS. LOUKAS: It's an existing document, in fact, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: What's the number?

24 MS. LOUKAS: It has already been introduced as evidence.

25 Prosecution Exhibit, page 65, binder 1, tab 27.

1 MR. HANNIS: I think it was introduced during Mr. Treanor's

2 testimony, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You will understand that we didn't take all the

4 18 binders of Mr. Treanor with us.

5 Ms. Thompson, I think the Treanor exhibits are --

6 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I can indicate that not only is it

7 already a Prosecution exhibit, but we also included it in the Defence

8 bundle, a copy of it. So it might be easier for the Registry assistants,

9 in view of the fact that Ms. Philpott is not here.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Let's put it on the ELMO, if we have the right

11 document, if the parties could. First have a look at the front page so

12 that we are certain we're looking at the right document, and then we'll

13 sort out which exhibit number exactly has been given to it.

14 Front page on the ELMO, let me just see. Yes, is it clear what

15 document we are talking about?

16 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. So Mr. Karabeg, what you have before you is a Prosecution exhibit

20 already in this case. It's an Agreement on the Formation of a Community

21 of Bosnian Krajina Municipalities, dated the 29th of April 1991. Agreed?

22 A. I'm sorry. I didn't understand you. Would you please so kind and

23 repeat the question.

24 Q. Do we agree that what you have in front of you is a document

25 "Agreement on the Formation of a Community of Bosnian Krajina

1 Municipalities, dated 29th of April 1991"?

2 A. On paper, yes. Whether the document is legal or not, I don't

3 know.

4 Q. So you're aware, are you not, that at the end of April 1991, these

5 various municipalities combined to form this community of Bosnian Krajina

6 municipalities? You're aware of that, are you not?

7 A. No, I'm not.

8 Q. Okay. Well, that was actually the topic of discussion, was it

9 not, at that meeting you went to in March 1991?

10 A. No, I don't actually remember.

11 Q. Okay. Now, just moving on to another topic and leaving that

12 aside --

13 MS. LOUKAS: I formally tender that document, Your Honour. Well,

14 I don't formally tender it, I mean it's already, but for the purposes of

15 this particular witness.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's recalled in respect of this witness.

17 MS. LOUKAS:

18 Q. Now, moving on to another topic, you know Adil Draganovic?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. And you're aware that there have been certain charges against

21 Mr. Draganovic?

22 Sorry, I didn't hear the response, Your Honour.

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Well, Mr. Draganovic has been accused of certain matters --

25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I need to interrupt at this point. I

1 think he has answered he doesn't know. So I don't know what further

2 discussion about that will gain us from this witness.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, do you want to assist the witness to

4 verify whether he really doesn't know anything about it, or is it anything

5 else? I will give you --

6 MS. LOUKAS: There are other matters, Your Honour, actually.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. A mere answer that someone doesn't know is not

8 a point where everything should stop immediately, Mr. Hannis, so I'll give

9 some room to Ms. Loukas to explore the matter further.

10 MR. HANNIS: If I may offer something at this point, Your Honour.

11 If the purpose is to impeach Mr. Draganovic's testimony, which has come in

12 under Rule 92 bis (D), if the Defence is willing to discuss with us what

13 she wants to raise, we might be willing to stipulate to that and it's not

14 necessary to raise it with this witness.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, you just received an offer, I think. Is

16 it something that would change your course of examination?

17 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour, it will certainly streamline what I

18 want from this witness.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, the problem is that it first has to be

20 discussed between the parties before you can finally make up your mind.

21 MS. LOUKAS: That's part of the problem, of course.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be of any assistance if I would allow -- I

23 mean, I don't know how much time that would take, but would -- let's say a

24 couple of minutes, would that assist you in making up your mind whether

25 you should put the questions you had in mind to this witness or whether

1 you could rather deal with the matter in other terms, the 92 bis (D)?

2 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, if the Prosecution and I can come to an

3 agreement in relation to certain material that relates to a witness that's

4 come in under 92 bis, there is a whole series of documents that we can

5 perhaps agree that can be tendered, which would mean that I would only

6 need to ask probably two-thirds the questions on this topic of this

7 particular witness.

8 JUDGE ORIE: How much time do you think it would take you to--

9 would it be of any use to give you a couple of minutes now so in order to?

10 MR. HANNIS: I think it might be, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's do it the following way: I'll give you

12 -- we'll adjourn just for a couple of minutes, five minutes, and after

13 this five minutes, I'd like to know whether there's any -- whether there's

14 any result or if there's any expectation that a result could be achieved

15 in a shorter time than it would take to --

16 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly, Your Honour. I'm sure we can come to an

17 agreement on that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll adjourn for five minutes. That means that

19 we would resume 2 minutes past 10.00.

20 I have to ask your patience for short a period.

21 --- Break taken at 9.56 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 10.02 a.m.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Strictly kept to the five minutes. Now, the next

24 question is whether this results in an agreement between the parties on

25 what is necessary to put to this witness.

1 MS. LOUKAS: Fortunately, it does, Your Honour. Mr. Hannis and I

2 have agreed that there's a bundle of Rule 68 material that has been --

3 that I have in relation to Mr. Adil Draganovic, which Mr. Hannis is happy

4 to go to the Chamber in respect of this particular municipality and the

5 fact that Adil Draganovic comes in under 92 bis.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MS. LOUKAS: And this will only leave me I think two questions on

8 the topic with this particular witness.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. The Chamber is pleased by this

10 efficient cooperation between the parties.

11 MS. LOUKAS:

12 Q. Now, Mr. Karabeg, you're aware, are you not, that on the 18th of

13 March 2003, Judge Adil Draganovic was suspended? His appointment as a

14 judge was suspended. Are you aware of that?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. And are you aware that in his accused's response, his response as

17 the accused for the introduction of evidence through witness testimony, he

18 has cited -- he cited you as a potential witness?

19 A. I'm not aware of that.

20 Q. So you're not aware that he has suggested what your evidence might

21 be that might be able to assist him. Is that correct?

22 A. No, we never discussed anything like that.

23 Q. Did you discuss anything with his lawyers?

24 A. I don't know which lawyers you mean.

25 Q. Mr. Adil Draganovic's lawyers.

1 A. I don't know. I don't know that he had any.

2 Q. You don't know how this suggestion that you would give evidence

3 for Mr. Draganovic emerged, correct?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. Could you tell me, please, what trial do you mean?

7 Q. Okay. Mr. Karabeg, Mr. Draganovic has suggested in documents

8 before the Bosnia-Herzegovina court that you would give evidence for him

9 in relation to charges against him. That's what I'm referring to.

10 A. I did testify, but he never said that I would testify or give

11 evidence for him. Because I was the minister at that time when he was the

12 president of the court.

13 Q. Yes, I understand that. And -- well, prior to you giving

14 evidence, you as a lawyer would know that often documents are presented in

15 relation to the fact that you might give evidence.

16 A. I'm a lawyer, and this is the 14th time you have mentioned me as

17 being a jurist since yesterday.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, the B/C/S/English

19 interpretation --

20 MS. LOUKAS: I think perhaps when I say "lawyer" it's being

21 interpreted as "jurist."

22 JUDGE ORIE: I think the interpreters would like to clarify the

23 issue.

24 I do not hear anything. But Mr. Karabeg, there seems to be a

25 translation. Where we say "lawyer," that it's translated into your

1 language in such a way that you respond to us that you're a lawyer.

2 That's exactly what Ms. Loukas has said before and what I said before. So

3 don't worry about that, that there's any misunderstanding as to your

4 position as a lawyer.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm not worried about that.

6 But there's no need for her to mention that. So if I were a stonemason,

7 she would say Mr. Karabeg, mason. So it doesn't need any qualification.

8 She needn't use that word, because she is alluding to something when she

9 says that. I'm conscious that I'm giving testimony under oath, under the

10 solemn declaration here, so she needn't keep mentioning, and I've counted

11 15 times that she's mentioned the word.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The word is "pravnik" or

13 "advokat," lawyer.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm conscious of the capacity in

15 which I'm giving testify here under oath.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Sometimes an allusion is made to you as better

17 understanding certain matters than, perhaps, a greengrocer would do. I

18 think when it's limited to that, then it's just about your understanding.

19 It has got nothing to do with the truthfulness -- yes.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And that is precisely why she should

21 not use the word in B/C/S "pravnik" because I'm an advokat, lawyer.

22 JUDGE ORIE: It just has been explained to us that there are two

23 ways of translating what we say in English "lawyer," that's "pravnik" or

24 "advokat." And it seems that you would prefer, if addressed as a lawyer,

25 that it be translated by "advokat." Let's proceed and let's not spend too

1 much time on this just to --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, might I just be allowed to

3 explain, Your Honours. I do not wish the Defence counsel to use either of

4 those words. She need not refer to me by my profession. She can call me

5 Witness Karabeg or Mr. Karabeg. There's no need for her to give an

6 epithet like "lawyer."

7 JUDGE ORIE: Sometimes it's functional, and I'll allow Ms. Loukas

8 under these circumstances to use that. If she would use it as to remind

9 you that you would speak the truth and therefore would use this

10 qualification, I would not allow her to do so. So if that's clear, we can

11 proceed now.

12 Ms. Loukas.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. I think in the 21st

14 century the use of the term "lawyer" has become a term of abuse.

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't catch the meaning of

16 what the witness said. Could he please repeat if he wishes to do so.

17 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters could not translate what you just

18 said, Mr. Karabeg. Would you please repeat your words or explain what you

19 said, if it's of any relevance.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not what I deserve and does

21 not serve purpose or is not to my honour when she mentions for 15 times

22 "you as a lawyer," "you as a lawyer." She need not do that. Because she

23 says "you as a lawyer should know or ought to know."

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I gave a clear answer to this objection. To

25 what extent I would allow it, to what extent I would not allow it, and

1 there's no further need for debate on this at this very moment. Please

2 proceed, Ms. Loukas.

3 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Now, Mr. Karabeg, I will not refer again to the fact that you are

5 a lawyer. I can promise you that.

6 MS. LOUKAS: Going on to another topic, I think, at this stage.

7 Firstly, if the Defence Exhibit typewritten information sheet in English

8 and B/C/S, that's number 3 and 4 on our list, could be placed before the

9 witness.

10 Q. I think you have that particular document before you, Mr. Karabeg?

11 If you might just read through that document --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- in B/C/S.

14 A. You want me to read it?

15 Q. Yes, please, Mr. Karabeg.

16 A. "According to verified --"

17 Q. No, no, to yourself. You can read it out if you like. Why don't

18 you read it out. Not a bad idea.

19 A. I'll read it to myself.

20 Yes, I've finished.

21 Q. Yes. Okay, so you're aware, are you not, that as at the 7th of

22 March 1992 it was considered that there were a number of people in the

23 Sanski Most area in Green Beret uniforms with automatic rifles, and that

24 an attack was sought to be launched on the Serbian village of Suhaca, and

25 that it's considered that the people responsible for the SDA's activities

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 in the local area in this regard include you. You're aware of that

2 allegation, Mr. Karabeg?

3 A. For what quotations? What allegations?

4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, may I pose a question at this point. I

5 have seen this document. It's signed with the name or the reference

6 "Milos." There are a number of documents in this case from this

7 individual or this organisation. I'm not sure if the Court would like to

8 inquire whether the defendant or the Defence is contending that those

9 documents are legitimate and credible, because if so, we have a number of

10 others that we would propose in this case.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Whether the document is legitimate is another

12 question, but we find at this moment in front of us a text, and of course

13 the original will look different, but could you give us any information

14 about what it is, where it comes from. Unless the witness would know,

15 then of course you can ask him.

16 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, of course, the source of this

17 information is the Prosecution.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any further information as to where it comes

19 from?

20 MR. HANNIS: We do have some further information about that, but

21 Your Honour, I would prefer not to discuss that in front of the witness.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps, the question to you, Mr. Karabeg, was

23 whether you were aware that allegations are made, at least in this

24 document, about an attack prepared by Green Berets, and your name is

25 mentioned in this document as one of the mainly responsible persons of

1 that. And the question was whether you were aware of this allegation.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. And I would like to respond to

3 this. This was a distorted presentation from Dzedovaca on the village of

4 Kamengrad and the mosque. These were targeted with three shells, and the

5 people gathered together and protested. So I think that anybody could

6 write pieces of paper like this. Yes, I was present, but it was after --

7 JUDGE ORIE: May I just stop you, Mr. Karabeg. The first

8 question, and I repeated the question put by Ms. Loukas, is whether you

9 were aware of it. Your answer is no, I was not aware of this allegation.

10 But from your subsequent answer, it appears that you have some knowledge

11 of an event which you think is described in this piece of paper. If

12 Ms. Loukas would like to have any further information about that, she'll

13 ask you about it.

14 Yes, Ms. Loukas.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But please, Your Honour, may I be

16 allowed to give an answer, to respond? I'm here as a witness to tell the

17 truth and not to respond in the way she would like me to do.

18 JUDGE ORIE: As you may have noticed, the Chamber keeps a close

19 eye on the way you are examined by the parties. I'll first give an

20 opportunity to Ms. Loukas to put any additional questions. If then

21 finally you'd like to add something, I'll give you an opportunity.

22 Ms. Loukas.

23 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. So, Mr. Karabeg, you've answered that you're not aware of this

25 allegation. Is that correct?

1 A. When I read it from here, this is not correct. It's not. There's

2 something there, but it's not correct in its entirety.

3 Q. Okay. So what's correct?

4 A. What is correct is that I was there. It is correct that it was in

5 Kamengrad. It is correct that those three shells were shot from Dzedovaca

6 onto Donji Dzedovaca and the mosque there and that the people had rallied

7 to protest. And you don't mention that before that, three shells were

8 targeting the mosque from the Serb villages. That is what is not

9 mentioned. But yes, I was there.

10 Q. Okay. So you're saying that it's not true that you were in any

11 way involved with this -- the Green Berets and arming of Muslims along

12 with the other people mentioned there.

13 A. No.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. No.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Karabeg, it is true, though, isn't it, that when you

17 noticed that the -- in 1991 that the JNA were doing practices in the local

18 area involving two teams, that you, when you and others learned about what

19 was happening with these JNA practices in 1991, you tried to do something

20 about it. That's true, isn't it?

21 A. I don't know what. I'd like you to tell me what it was that I

22 tried to do.

23 Q. Okay. So you called and had meetings with non-Serbs who had been

24 serving with the JNA and had reserve ranks in the JNA, and now had

25 different occupations to see what could be done to protect the Serbs --

1 the non-Serbs, sorry.

2 A. That's not true. It's not correct. It's fabricated, made up.

3 Q. [Previous interpretation continues]...

4 A. Yes. Where and when and with whom. I would have to hear where,

5 when, and with whom.

6 Q. Okay. Well, did you say anything like that to anyone from the

7 Prosecution?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Never. Okay.

10 MS. LOUKAS: Now, the next Defence Exhibit, Your Honour, if that

11 could be shown to the witness, that's referred to in 1 and 2 on our list

12 of documents. There's the English version and the B/C/S version.

13 Q. Now, Mr. Karabeg, just to identify what we have before you, this

14 is the outline of an interview given by you on the 30th and 31st of May

15 1997. Now, do you agree with me that that's what this document

16 represents?

17 A. You just land me with this all of a sudden, so I don't know. But

18 yes, I think it is. Out of the blue.

19 Q. Now, you'll notice that the document has headings. If you might

20 turn to the heading marked "JNA."

21 JUDGE ORIE: It's page 3 in the B/C/S version.

22 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, if I may pose a question at this point.

23 This document was never signed nor initialled by this witness, so I'm not

24 sure if we should inquire further before we go into details of what's in

25 the statement.

1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is aware that it's not signed, and even

2 contains parts which seems not to be an expression of what the witness

3 said at that time, but gives some comments or even opinion about it. But

4 the Chamber is aware of that.

5 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

6 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Now, back on the 30th and 31st of May 1997, you were interviewed

8 by Jutta Paczulla and Brenda Hollis from the Prosecution. That's correct,

9 is it not?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. You don't know if you were interviewed by Jutta Paczulla and

12 Brenda Hollis on the 30th and 31st of May 1997?

13 A. To be honest, I don't know. I gave so many statements in that

14 respect, and now you're asking me something specifically relating to 1997,

15 whether I remember that particular thing. And it was unfortunate that I

16 was interviewed on the -- when it was the worst, 1995, 1996, and the 7th

17 of May when I was under stress, because they were all the days when all

18 this was happening to me, when I was arrested and so on.

19 MS. LOUKAS: Does the Prosecution concede that this is a record of

20 an interview conducted on the 30th and 31st of May 1997 by Jutta Paczulla

21 and Brenda Hollis from the Prosecution?

22 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I don't have personal knowledge of that.

23 I know that's what it says and that's what it appears to be, and we

24 furnished it to the Defence because it related to this witness. However,

25 I don't know whether it was ever read out to Mr. Karabeg or if he's ever

1 adopted --

2 JUDGE ORIE: That was not the question, whether it was read out or

3 not. But whether this was a report of an interview by Jutta Paczulla and

4 Brenda Hollis.

5 May I ask you, Mr. Karabeg, do you remember that in May 1997 you

6 were interviewed by two ladies from the Prosecutor's office?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

9 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. And there was also an interpreter present, Gordana Viskovic. Do

11 you recall that, Mr. Karabeg?

12 A. Yes, go ahead.

13 Q. Now, I take it what occurred there was that you spoke and various

14 matters that might be included in your statement were written down. Do

15 you agree with that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And at the end, was the statement read out to you?

18 A. I don't know. I think it was. But I don't know why I didn't sign

19 it.

20 Q. But in any event, as you were speaking, notes were being taken of

21 what you were saying. That's correct, is it not?

22 A. That's how it ought to be.

23 Q. Now, if you look at that heading under "JNA," I think that was

24 pointed out to you by the court usher. You have that before you? You'll

25 see that what I put to you is written down there, that 1991 there was a

1 practice with the JNA. Practice with JNA. During these practices,

2 exercises, there were two teams. They were -- the way the JNA practiced

3 was how they later launched their attacks in this area. They did the

4 practice in the area of Bosanska Krupa and Kljuc. When Karabeg and others

5 learned about what was happening, they tried--

6 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down for interpretation.

7 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, yes.

8 Q. So they called and had meetings with non-Serbs who had been

9 serving with the JNA and who had reserve ranks in the JNA and now had

10 different occupations to see what could be done to protect non-Serbs.

11 So you see that what you've denied to me in court today is

12 actually written down there. Do you see that?

13 A. You see, this was after the colonel said that he spoken with the

14 president of Krupa and that he had approved of those measures. And this

15 is when I did this, after I realised that he had not -- that this was not

16 going to work because we realised that everything from now on would be

17 based on a one ethnic principle.

18 Q. Now, the fact is, Mr. Karabeg, that you were very hesitant when

19 you were giving this information to the Prosecution, were you not?

20 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear the answer.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the answer. The interpreters

22 could not hear you. The question was whether you were hesitant to give

23 this information. Would you repeat your answer.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 MS. LOUKAS:

1 Q. You were hesitant, I think, Mr. Karabeg, because you had something

2 to hide, didn't you?

3 MR. HANNIS: Objection, Your Honour. That's argumentative.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had nothing to hide.

5 MR. HANNIS: I withdraw my objection.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Now, Your Honour, I note the time.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 MS. LOUKAS: I only have a short period to go, but I'm actually

11 awaiting a document that will be faxed to the Defence room.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's then adjourn until 11.00, and then the

13 Judges will have time to consider whether they are planning additional

14 questions to the witness as well.

15 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until 11.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, you may proceed.

20 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Karabeg, just one matter relating to your statement where

22 you listed the names of the people who were in the cell with you. And I

23 don't know if you have the 1999 statement before you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: It's paragraph 62.

25 MS. LOUKAS: Paragraph 62, that's right.

1 Q. Now they all appear to be Muslim names. Is that correct?

2 A. Mostly, yes.

3 Q. Now, just very quickly through your statement, in relation to

4 paragraph 35, you referred to having a list of names with you that they

5 were very interested in. What was that list of names, Mr. Karabeg?

6 A. I don't know what this refers to.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Karabeg.

8 Now, just one -- another matter, moving topics altogether, of

9 course you were involved in the SDA and a politician. That's correct, is

10 it not?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And of course you would have kept yourself well abreast of matters

13 occurring at the head of the SDA, including in particular Izetbegovic?

14 A. Well, not really. Yes, as far as the SDA generally speaking is

15 concerned, but I did not have much contact with Izetbegovic.

16 Q. But were you aware that on a visit to Turkey in July 1991, at

17 about the time when the war was nearly over in Slovenia and was about to

18 begin in Croatia, Izetbegovic asked to join the Organisation of Islamic

19 Countries?

20 A. Yes. It was actually through the media that I learned about that.

21 Q. And you were aware, of course, that that move on the part of

22 Mr. Izetbegovic antagonised Serbs and Croats?

23 A. Well, I know that Bosnia and Herzegovina is still a member of that

24 organisation.

25 Q. Yes, but were you aware of the -- at that time that that caused

1 some consternation amongst Serbs and Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

2 A. You see, I was a member of the local municipal SDA. I did not

3 have any function at the level of BH as far as the SDA is concerned at

4 that time.

5 Q. Yes, I understand that, Mr. Karabeg. But are you aware in your

6 local area of that move perhaps causing some consternation amongst local

7 Serbs and Croats?

8 A. That's what you can say.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karabeg, the question is --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- simple, whether you are aware that it caused some

12 consternation among the Serbs and the Croats that Mr. Izetbegovic --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I wasn't, because we didn't

14 have any problems with Croats in Sanski Most, because in Sanski Most we

15 were treated the same by the Serb community.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, just for my information, if --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer to the question was no.

18 No, I was not aware of that.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

20 MS. LOUKAS:

21 Q. Now, also in the evidence that you've given, you don't seem to

22 indicate that anything happened to any of the Croats during this period

23 you've given evidence to.

24 A. I testified about that. You are referring me now to the paragraph

25 where I'm stating who I found when I got to the cell, and you have here

1 the name and the surname of the Croat whom I found when I came to the

2 cell.

3 Q. Okay. So in your entire evidence there is just this evidence in

4 relation to one particular Croat who was in the cell with you. Is that

5 correct?

6 A. On the 25th of May, I found those people there. They were not

7 with me in the cell throughout that period. It was on the 25th of May,

8 when I was detained, that I found them there.

9 Q. I'll leave that topic.

10 Now, Mr. Karabeg, just --

11 MS. LOUKAS: If the witness might be shown a document.

12 Unfortunately, this particular document just came through on the fax

13 during the adjournment break. But I have copies for everyone in Court.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Has the Prosecution received a copy yet?

15 MS. LOUKAS: No, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I see it's a relatively short document.

17 MS. LOUKAS: It is, Your Honour. It's in fact a photograph.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would like to first give an opportunity to the

19 Prosecution to have a glance at it before you put any question to the

20 witness in that respect.

21 MS. LOUKAS: Of course.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Once the Prosecution has seen it, of course, the

23 Chamber would very much like to have a copy as well.

24 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please assist.

1 MS. LOUKAS: I would indicate, Your Honour, that the document I've

2 shown the Prosecution is, in fact, the one that was scanned, I think. In

3 fact, yes, I think that's the actual scanned copy. The copies that I have

4 for Court are photocopies of that scan, so they are obviously not as good

5 as that particular one. In terms of exhibits, obviously that would be the

6 particular exhibit. I just thought I'd point that out, and it's the one

7 that should be shown to the witness because it has got a great deal more

8 clarity.

9 MR. HANNIS: I'll be happy to trade, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I should have taken my glasses, then, being the only

11 one without.

12 MS. LOUKAS: Unfortunately, Your Honour, I almost gave away my

13 copy as well.

14 Q. Now, Mr. Karabeg, you have that document before you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And of course, the document is in B/C/S. You'll agree with me?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You'd agree with me a newspaper cutting from the 23rd of April

19 1992?

20 A. I don't know. I can only assume. It is from Glas.

21 Q. Glas being a local newspaper at the time?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Right. And you'll note the date is just under the headline there.

24 You see that?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And you see that this particular article refers to the gathering

2 that you were speaking of in your evidence that you said you'd seen on TV?

3 A. Yes, but this is not it. This was on the news that day, the news

4 programme, the daily news programme, with several footages, several

5 stills, several photos.

6 Q. You'll see that the photograph shows the front row of the

7 gathering in question.

8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether this is the

10 photograph. I didn't see this photograph on TV.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis.

12 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, the question seemed to assume that there

13 was only one gathering in Banja Luka on that day, and I don't know that

14 that is necessarily a fact. And Your Honour, because I don't have an

15 English translation, I don't know what the headline is or what the

16 description of this gathering is.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we should first clarify that.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could ask -- could perhaps Ms. Cmeric read

20 slowly the text. I wouldn't ask the witness to read something he -- could

21 you perhaps slowly read the text, to start with, the heading.

22 Ms. Cmeric: [Interpretation] "On the occasion of the 22nd of

23 April, the day of liberation of Banja Luka, preparations for --"

24 JUDGE ORIE: I asked to read slowly.

25 Ms. Cmeric: [Interpretation] "On the occasion of the 22nd of

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1 April, the liberation day of Banja Luka, preparations for Defence. Troops

2 and weapons are being brought to the banks of the River -- to the borders

3 of Bosanska Krajina, and rivers of refugees are coming to these areas,

4 Predrag Radic, president of the SO, stated yesterday at the session.

5 Banja Luka, 22nd of April, this is the Remembrance Day, remembrance of all

6 of those who gave their lives fighting for this country. However, it is

7 also the day of preparations against those who are working against us.

8 This was declared today at the ceremonial session of the Municipal

9 Assembly on the occasion of the 22nd of April, the liberation day of Banja

10 Luka. Before a full or a packed hall of the community centre of Banja

11 Luka, the introductory speech was given by Mr. Predrag Radic, who greeted

12 those who had gathered and emphasised that we're living in the times when

13 dishonesty has come out of the dark and non-humans are walking around the

14 area, and the Krajina region and Banja Luka as a town is being attacked by

15 dogs of war from all over the world.

16 "The borders of Bosanska Krajina have seen amassing of troops and

17 weapons, and rivers of refugees are coming to this area which has become

18 an island of peace. This was declared by Radic in his speech, who also

19 expressed his good wishes to the combatants for peace and to all the

20 guests. He wished them a lot of success in resisting these forces of evil

21 so that this liberation day of Banja Luka could become -- would remain

22 also an occasion to celebrate.

23 "On this occasion, the guests were able to see a very rich

24 cultural and arts programme. Signed by Z. Pejicic. Photographs by

25 R. Ostojic."

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

2 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour. I believe there was one line beneath

3 the photograph that wasn't read out. It's very small print on my copy.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see it.

5 Ms. Cmeric: Yes, Your Honour, that would be [Interpretation]

6 "Ceremonial session at the community centre in Banja Luka."

7 JUDGE ORIE: At a certain moment, part of the translation was that

8 it was a meeting or a gathering, perhaps, with guests, but of the

9 Municipal Assembly. Is that a correct understanding, Ms. Cmeric, from

10 what it says in the...?

11 Ms. Cmeric: Yes, Your Honour. This is actually the gathering

12 that took place. That was a ceremonial session held in the Municipal

13 Assembly --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me --

15 Ms. Cmeric: -- and chaired by President Predrag Radic.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check it. There seems to be a slight

17 difference in what you tell us. Could you perhaps read it again in the

18 original language so we can hear from the interpreters finally, because it

19 was translated to us "This was declared today at the ceremonial session of

20 the Municipal Assembly," which is not exactly the same as the ceremonial

21 session in the Municipal Assembly. Could you perhaps read that part again

22 slowly so that we can hear from the interpreters whether it was a

23 ceremonial session of the Municipal Assembly or a ceremonial session in

24 the Municipal Assembly.

25 MS. CMERIC: [Interpretation] "This was declared at the ceremonial

1 session of the Municipal Assembly today by the president, Mr. Predrag

2 Radic."

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much.

4 Ms. Loukas, please proceed. Now we at least know what the

5 newspaper article tells us.

6 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Now, Mr. Karabeg, finally, are you prepared to concede that it's

8 possible that you've made a mistake about Mr. Krajisnik being there on

9 that date?

10 A. No.

11 MS. LOUKAS: No further questions, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Loukas.

13 Any need for questions?

14 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have one question I wanted to ask.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, proceed.

16 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I know the Court does have a copy of the

17 transcript of the direct examination of Mr. Karabeg in the Brdjanin case,

18 but I want to read one question and one answer to him, if I may.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

20 Re-examined by Mr. Hannis:

21 MR. HANNIS: For the record, Your Honour, I'm reading from page

22 6072 from Monday, the 27th of May, 2002.

23 Q. Mr. Cayley was cross-examining [sic] you, Mr. Karabeg. I want to

24 read you the question and your answer and ask if you recall this. It

25 regards that meeting in Banja Luka in early 1991.

1 Question: "Now, you've said in your evidence that at the meeting

2 what was put forward, the question was raised what to do with the balijas

3 and Ustashas want. That was the jargon being used. Can you remember now

4 after all these years anything specific that was said about the balijas

5 and the Ustashas at this meeting?"

6 Answer: "Well, they, it was said that the numbers of balijas and

7 Ustashas should be reduced, that means should be assured for the Serbian

8 Krajina, later the region, later the Republika Srpska, that their mini

9 media of the balija and the Ustasha, this referred to Bosniak and Croatian

10 televisions, and that all means should be used in order to prevent it from

11 these media being seen and heard on this territory."

12 Do you recall being asked that question and giving that answer in

13 your testimony in the Brdjanin trial?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. And as you sit here today, do you recall that is what happened at

16 the meeting?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. HANNIS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Canivell has one or more questions for you.

21 Questioned by the Court:

22 JUDGE CANIVELL: Mr. Karabeg, you said yesterday that when you

23 were asked, you and the Bosniak in your municipality, were asked to hand

24 the weapons they may have, they complied because -- and you complied

25 because you knew what could happen in case of a refusal. You didn't

1 explain. What should have happened should have you refused to hand over

2 these weapons, please?

3 A. They would have killed us. And this is exactly what they did

4 after. They would burn down the building. They would have probably

5 surrounded it and destroyed it.

6 JUDGE CANIVELL: How did you know about these results? You had

7 had already some information about that happening in other places? Or how

8 were you so sure about this result?

9 A. Well, before that, events had taken place already in Foca, in

10 Brcko, and quite a few other places as well. The events in Sarajevo, for

11 instance. And we were all able to follow this in the media, over the TV

12 in particular. And especially later when we saw that from the direction

13 of Dzedovaca or thereabouts, a column of 30 vehicles was moving, carrying

14 armed soldiers of Serb ethnicity, members of the 6th Krajina Brigade, it

15 was clear.

16 JUDGE CANIVELL: Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has one or more questions for

18 you.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Witness, I should like to clarify with your help several things.

21 Mr. Fedad Karabeg, is he related to you?

22 A. I beg your pardon? I didn't hear the name. What is the name of

23 this person, Karabeg?

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Fedad Karabeg.

25 A. No, I'm not familiar. Well, if his surname is Karabeg, it is

1 quite possible that we are related. But if he's, for instance, from

2 Mostar, then we are not related at all. There is a street where -- in

3 Mostar where the Karabeg family lives, but we are not related to them in

4 any way. However, if he's from the area of Sanski Most, then it's quite

5 possible that we are relatives or distant relatives.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I am now referring to what was

7 written in Mr. Rasula's diary on the 25th of May 1992. Among other

8 things, he says that Fedad, and I will quote you in English "owned a

9 machine-gun, and his father a rifle." [Interpretation] That's why I asked

10 you this question. I wanted to know if this particular individual is in

11 any way related to you.

12 A. I don't know. Is he from Sanski Most? It is possible that he's a

13 distant relative. But there are a lot of Karabegs. But I don't know this

14 particular one.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And my second

16 question has to do with what you stated in your statement, the one that

17 you gave in 1999. I'm referring to paragraph number 25 where you declare

18 the following. I will quote your words in English: [In English] "In

19 March 1992, I saw first time helicopters landing in Serb villages. I saw

20 them go to Podlug, Dabar, et cetera, close to Sanski Most."

21 [Interpretation] End of quotation.

22 Later on, you said that you heard that those helicopters in fact

23 were bringing in money to the villages, but that you doubted that

24 information and that you insinuated, in fact, that those helicopters were

25 bringing in weapons. Is that correct? Is that what you wanted to say,

1 that the helicopters were, in fact, flying in munitions in order to arm

2 the villages, the Serb villages? Would that be right?

3 A. Yes. Because it was ridiculous for them to say that they were

4 taking money to villages.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But you never saw yourself any

6 arms, any weapons in the helicopters themselves, yourself. Did you see

7 that?

8 A. No, I did not. I wasn't even near those helicopters, nowhere near

9 them, so I never saw that, no.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Now, I'd just like very briefly

11 to refer to the meeting that you yourself spoke about that you attended in

12 Banja Luka in March 1991. Do you remember that?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Now, you said that you found an

15 invitation card in front of you on your table in your office, inviting you

16 to attend this meeting. So there was an invitation without a name; is

17 that it? Would that be right?

18 A. No. My name was not specified. No name specification.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, so it was an anonymous

20 invitation, an invitation "To whom it may concern," not to any specific

21 person by name.

22 A. The invitation was sent to the president of the assembly. But the

23 name and the surname wasn't specified. It said "The president of the

24 assembly." So in this case, and in similar cases, if the president of the

25 assembly was not available, he would have his deputy, and the deputy would

1 be a volunteer. He would say "I'll go instead." Or if I receive an

2 invitation as president of the Executive Board and I am not there, then

3 the deputy president of the assembly would go to the meeting.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So the invitation was addressed

5 to the president in actual fact?

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now, what reception

8 were you given once you entered, when you got there, when you arrived at

9 the meeting?

10 A. Well, nobody actually received me. Nobody noticed me. Nobody

11 made a note of my being there, nor did anybody ask me anything, just like

12 the others.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So who led the reception? Who

14 was the main person there?

15 A. I don't know. I don't know. I didn't even make an effort to see

16 who was chairing the reception. There were several speakers, and I think,

17 but I repeat I think, I don't think there was a chairman. There wasn't

18 any one specific person who chaired the meeting.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And do you remember who the

20 organisers were, if I can put it that way, of that meeting? Was it

21 organised by the SDS party, or were there functionaries, party officials

22 there, from the administration, for example? Do you happen to remember?

23 A. Well, it's like this, you see: A lot of time has gone by since

24 then. I said that the meeting was attended mostly by the presidents of

25 assemblies and the presidents of the executive boards of the 17

1 municipalities, with the exception, I think I said that, with the

2 exception of the president of the assembly of Prijedor. He was not

3 invited because he was the only Bosniak.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But they were all of Serb

5 ethnicity, were they? They were all Serbs then?

6 A. All of them, yes. And I assumed -- I assumed they were all Serbs

7 because there were just two of us Bosniaks, but nobody attached any

8 importance to us, nobody contacted us, came up to us to speak to us or

9 anything like that. Although I must say we didn't know these people very

10 well because they were people who had been elected at the elections of the

11 year 2000, so they came into office as of January 2001, so we didn't have

12 a chance of getting to know them beforehand. We didn't actually know all

13 these people.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But to your knowledge, this

15 particular meeting, do you think it was convened by the party authorities

16 or the administrative authorities, or who?

17 A. Both, I assume. Both the party and state authorities.

18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And you base your assumptions on

19 what? How do you come to that conclusion?

20 A. Because it was a one-ethnicity meeting. Uni-national.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But you said that it was

22 convened by the party authorities, the SDS party that means, and also by

23 the administrative sections as well. Governmental, if I can put it that

24 way, the governmental authorities and strata.

25 A. Yes. I assume that that's how it was, although there wasn't a

1 joint organ for Bosnian Krajina at that time.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But you confirm, you do confirm

3 and assert that no high dignitaries either from the party or the

4 government were present. They were just the presidents of the

5 municipalities. Right? Local level?

6 A. Yes, I said I assumed they were the presidents of the

7 municipalities where the Serbs were presidents, presidents of the

8 executive boards where it was a Serb president again, and the party of

9 representatives as well.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And you left with the impression

11 that it was more a meeting which had received instructions, or was it a

12 debate, an open debate and discussion amongst the participants? Did it

13 give an opportunity of all the people present to express their own

14 opinions, or were they following some instructions and guidelines? I

15 don't know whether I'm making myself clear enough. What I'm saying is

16 this: Was it more a meeting which had as its goal the discussion of

17 certain questions pursuant to instructions and guidelines coming from some

18 quarter, or was it a free debate, an open and frank discussion and debate

19 amongst the participants, the presidents of the municipalities, as you

20 said, who were freely expressing their opinions, their individual

21 opinions?

22 A. You see, it was a sort of underhand debate. I never said that

23 before, but I do remember that there were two people who had the main say

24 in Banja Luka. It was Professor Mico Carevic and Kugo Lazarevic. I know

25 that these two men had the main say, and they would steer the people

1 taking part in the discussion along these lines. And that is what I said

2 that the president of the court for misdemeanors from Srbac, that he said

3 where the funds would be directed and that the Ustashas' and balijas'

4 media should be stifled and that the Serb media should be encouraged.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So what about Professor Mico?

6 What was his occupation?

7 A. I don't know. I knew Professor Mico by sight. He was professor

8 at the faculty of law. That's all I know. And I know this other one,

9 Kugo Lazarevic, because I'd seen him around.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Both of them were members of the

11 SDS party, were they?

12 A. I don't know. I really don't know that.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But at least Professor Mico was

14 not a municipal president, was he? He wasn't president of a Municipal

15 Assembly, for example, was he, this Professor Mico?

16 A. No.

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Nor the other gentleman?

18 A. That's right, Lazarevic.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So now you remember that these

20 two individuals played the role of organisers, if I can put it. They led

21 the debate, they steered the debate.

22 A. Yes, that's right, they did.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And at the end of the meeting,

24 were any decisions made or recommendations adopted?

25 A. Let me tell you, we weren't interested in that because we didn't

1 expect anything like that to take place at the meeting. We even wanted to

2 leave during the break.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But at the end of the meeting,

4 did it end by drafting any recommendations or anything like that?

5 Instructions? Guidelines? Anything particular like that?

6 A. I don't know. I really don't know. All I can tell you is this:

7 I have at home, because I did keep notes but I haven't brought them with

8 me, I haven't brought any documents, but I can, of course, send my notes

9 to the Tribunal, my own diary, my own agenda which has a note of my having

10 attended that meeting, my original notes, the ones I took.

11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Did they decide to meet again at

12 some point in the future, in the near future or the distant future?

13 A. I don't know.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 A. May I just add, you know when you arrive at a meeting when you

16 expect something nice to happen and then you hear ugly things being said,

17 then you lose interest. You're not interested in taking part. And then

18 you say to myself, What in the world brought me here in the first place?

19 And that's what I and Mr. Draganovic, president of the Executive Board of

20 the Kljuc municipality, discussed amongst ourselves. We thought, Why did

21 we ever come to the meeting in the first place?

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But you had the possibility to

23 react and explain your point of view, express your point of view, or was

24 that out of the question? Were you not able to take the floor?

25 A. No, you don't realise the kind of times they were and the

1 situation we were in. No, my answer is no.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But did you try, at least? Did

3 you try to do anything like that, at least?

4 A. No, no, I didn't even try. Because it would have ended badly for

5 me had I tried.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I've got a few questions for you as well.

8 You just spoke about your personal notes. Did you make these

9 notes at the time of the events you refer to in these notes?

10 A. Yes, at the time of the events. That's right.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you ever discuss the content of your notes

12 with the investigators --

13 A. No, I did not. No, I didn't, never.

14 JUDGE ORIE: And --

15 A. There's not much of that. I just recorded that I attended

16 such-and-such a meeting. Made a note of it.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And you offered to make them available for the

18 Chamber if we would like to see them.

19 A. Yes, that's right, I did offer. The original notes, the whole

20 agenda or notebook.

21 JUDGE ORIE: The Judges will consider whether we'll ask you to

22 provide those notes.

23 When you were asked about the list of names you had that those who

24 were interrogating you after your arrest were interested in, you said it

25 doesn't come into my mind at this moment what this refers to. Having had

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1 some time perhaps to reflect, is it coming back in your mind what this

2 list of names you spoke about would have been?

3 A. I don't think I quite understood you. What list are you referring

4 to? What list of names?

5 JUDGE ORIE: In paragraph 35 of your statement - Ms. Loukas has

6 taken you to that paragraph - it reads: "I had a list of names, and they

7 were very interested in. During questioning, the interrogators told

8 Kurbegovic that the secretary of the SDA in Celinac had been arrested. He

9 had documents showing plans for destruction of bridges and that he would

10 tell all." But this paragraph starts with you being in possession of a

11 list of names. Do you remember what that list was about?

12 A. Yes, I do. It was in the month of March 1992 when I returned from

13 a business trip to Sarajevo. And I have it. I have some of the names.

14 They searched me, took everything out of my pockets, found a list of five

15 names which I had. It was a list I worked with, of the people I worked

16 with, and nothing else. So if you do that to me now, if you take things

17 out of my pocket, you would find lists of names in my pockets, on me. So

18 they searched me. They took everything out of my pockets, everything I

19 had in my pockets, and they saw this list. And this was when I was on a

20 business trip and we were detained for four hours and questioned. It

21 wasn't when I was arrested on the 25th of May. This took place on another

22 occasion, two months before the 25th of May, in fact.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I made a mistake. I said after you were arrested.

24 But once you were stopped at the --

25 A. Yes, that's right.

1 JUDGE ORIE: They finally got that list, and this was a list of, I

2 would say business, people you knew from the business you were in?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer. Then you explained to us

5 that the president of the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly or of

6 the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor would not have been invited to the

7 meeting in Banja Luka because he was, as you told us, he was a Bosniak.

8 Nevertheless, you and the president of the assembly or of the Executive

9 Board of the Assembly of Kljuc were invited. So out of three non-Serb

10 presidents, two received an invitation, or at least showed up at this

11 meeting where one, you said, was not invited because he was a Bosniak.

12 Could you explain to us how it could be possible that if for reasons of

13 being a Bosniak you would not be invited, that nevertheless two out of

14 three were invited?

15 A. This is how it was: Muhamed Cehajic was not the president of the

16 Executive Board of Prijedor; he was president of the assembly. And all

17 the presidents of the assemblies of the 17 municipalities were invited, so

18 the invitation that I received was handed over and it read to the

19 president of the Municipal Assembly of Sanski Most. And that was Rasula.

20 So he was invited. And then somebody placed on my table as president of

21 the Executive Board, when I came into my office in the morning, I found

22 this invitation on my table. And I thought well, the president of the

23 assembly was not there, and that was normal, and I as the president of the

24 Executive Board went to the meeting. Had I talked to Mr. Asim Egeric, who

25 also held the same post, he was also president of the Executive Board,

1 whereas he was a Serb, I think from his name, he was president of the

2 assembly and the same thing happened to him. So he said, here is the

3 invitation, and it reads president of the Municipal Assembly of Kljuc,

4 and I came as president of the Executive Board. So we weren't directly

5 invited. It was just by chance that we happened to receive these

6 invitations and attend the meeting. But when I discussed this with the

7 late Mr. Muhamed Cehajic several days later, who was president of the

8 assembly of Prijedor, who belonged to the region, I asked, Why didn't you

9 attend the meeting? And he said, Well, I never receive an invitation to

10 attend at all.

11 JUDGE ORIE: So now I do understand that more or less by chance

12 you took over the invitation which was not directly addressed to you and

13 would not have been addressed to you as --

14 A. Yes, that's right. That's quite right.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I now understand better.

16 A. And we wouldn't have gone had on that day the president of the

17 assembly, Nedeljko Rasula, been at the office, I wouldn't have gone.

18 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear to me. You told us that you testified

19 in a, what I understood, a case against Mr. Draganovic of which we have no

20 further details. Could you tell us, did you testify in open court or did

21 you give a statement? When was it, and could you briefly explain to you

22 us under what circumstances you testified.

23 A. This is how it was: I was the minister of the Sanski canton for

24 jurisprudence and administration at the time when Mr. Draganovic was the

25 president of the court. And as the minister, in agreement with the

1 finance minister of the day, I had agreed that resources be allocated for

2 the work of the court --

3 JUDGE ORIE: You're now talking about -- the case. I asked you

4 about whether you testified in open court, whether it was a closed

5 session, whether --

6 A. Yes, yes, that's right, in open court. In open session.

7 JUDGE ORIE: In open court. In the presence of Mr. Draganovic?

8 In the presence of --

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: -- Prosecution?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Was Mr. Draganovic assisted by counsel?

13 A. I think he was. I don't know. I think he did have counsel, yes.

14 But I didn't pay attention to that. I think he did. Because nobody asked

15 me any questions when I testified.

16 JUDGE ORIE: No one asked you questions when you testified? Not

17 even the court?

18 A. No, they didn't. They didn't ask questions.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would like to know what do you mean by

20 testifying? Did you give a -- well, a statement on your own, or -- no

21 questions were put to you?

22 A. No. Before that, I made a written -- gave a written statement. I

23 did give a written statement beforehand. And then I said that I would

24 respond when called about the statement which I signed, and I said I stood

25 by what I had said in my written statement.

1 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. You confirmed your written statement

2 you gave earlier.

3 A. Yes, that's right. The one I gave earlier, yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: To whom did you give the written statement? To

5 investigators or to a prosecutor or to what kind of a person?

6 A. I gave the written statement to, I think it was the investigating

7 judge at the time. Pursuant to our rules and regulations, statements of

8 that kind would be given to the investigating judge. So I think that's

9 who it was to. Either to the prosecutor or the investigating judge, but I

10 think it was to the judge.

11 JUDGE ORIE: In the presence of the Defence?

12 A. The statement in the presence of the defence? No. I gave it of

13 my own free will, I wrote it, signed it, and sent it. And I said that I

14 would be ready to come to court to make my statement with respect to the

15 written statement I had already given if the need arose. I said I

16 confirmed everything I said in the statement, and so on.

17 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear to me.

18 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, regarding that, I think a summary or

19 that statement itself is part of the Rule 68 materials that Defence

20 counsel and I agreed on to submit to the Court.

21 JUDGE ORIE: To make it not a secret, what I was seeking to find

22 out is whether your answer that you didn't know that Mr. Draganovic had

23 counsel, whether the circumstances would have given you a clue that he

24 would be assisted by counsel. But the matter has been sufficiently

25 clarified for me.

1 Then my next question would be, are you familiar with the layout

2 of the hall of the Municipal Assembly in Banja Luka?

3 A. Well, you see, I wasn't there very often, and I wasn't there after

4 the war. I'd been there before the war on several occasions. So unless

5 anything changed, perhaps I could recognise it. I think I could recognise

6 it as far as the entrance is concerned. Yes, I think I would be able to

7 recognise it.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I ask you to answer a few questions on

9 the basis of the photograph that was presented to you, the photograph I

10 haven't -- could it please be put on the ELMO so that you can have it

11 enlarged on your screen.

12 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, may I inquire, does this have a number

13 yet? If not, perhaps we should give it one.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think it has a number yet. But since some

15 other documents have no numbers yet either, I would -- I see you have it.

16 Could you, Madam Registrar, please read the numbers in of all the

17 documents on the list of documents to be used in cross-examination.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. I've pre-numbered these

19 already.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 THE REGISTRAR: We'll start with number 1, the ICTY statement.

22 That will be marked D12. Number 2, which is also the ICTY statement but

23 in B/C/S is marked D12/1.

24 Point 3, typewritten information, sheet number 011/92 is marked

25 D13.

1 JUDGE ORIE: I'm a bit confused by number 3 and 4, but perhaps we

2 should ask for clarification because we find two English versions.

3 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, indeed, Your Honour. My case manager has just

4 pointed out to me that number 4 is the B/C/S version.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Number 4 is the B/C/S version.

6 THE REGISTRAR: So number 4 is the B/C/S version, and it is D13.1.

7 The document, Agreement on the Formation of a Community of Bosnian

8 Krajina Municipalities, is marked as D14.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I think as a matter of fact that it should not get a

10 number because it has got already a Prosecution, Exhibit P65, binder 1,

11 tab 27.

12 THE REGISTRAR: My correction.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then the photograph would be the one which does not

14 appear and would then get number D14, I take it?

15 THE REGISTRAR: D14, yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

17 Could D14, it is on the ELMO at this moment. Mr. Karabeg, do you

18 recognise the hall or the room where we see a lot of people sitting in?

19 A. I don't know. I don't think the hall looked like this then. I

20 don't know. I seem to think that it didn't.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you can't help me in that respect.

22 Then I've got one final question to you, or a few questions on the

23 activities you developed in relation to the practice of the JNA in 1991.

24 In your statement, paragraph 19 up until I would say 23 and/or 24, you

25 describe what happened in relation to these practices of the JNA. Do I

1 correctly understand that you found out that you were misinformed about

2 the consent given by the Bosanska Krupa civilian officials for these

3 practices?

4 A. Yes. I was misinformed.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And do I also correctly understand your statement to

6 say that you learned that in your absence it was said that you had given

7 your approval for these practices as well?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And do I understand that you learned this from a

10 certain Captain Fuad Kurbegovic?

11 A. Kurbegovic, yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Was he a Serb or a non-Serb?

13 A. He's a Bosniak. His wife is a Serb, so he is in a mixed marriage,

14 but he's a Muslim.

15 JUDGE ORIE: What information did he tell you about this wrong

16 information provided to others?

17 A. See, it's not that he told me that others had been misinformed.

18 He told me that they had said that I had, too, expressed my consent for

19 these manoeuvres to take place. I did not accept that because they had

20 told me, because this had been accepted the Bosanska Krupa head when I

21 called him to ask him whether he had given his consent for the manoeuvres

22 to take place, he said no one had talked to me about it, nor do I know

23 anything about it. And that's when I said that I could no longer accept

24 it because I had been deluded. They had misinformed me about the consent

25 given by this Bosanska Krupa person. It was then that Kurbegovic said at

1 that meeting that I had given my consent, which was not true.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And he told you later, because you did not

3 attend that meeting. And he told you later that this information was

4 given at that meeting where you were absent. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: From the whole of your statement, do I understand

7 that you're quite unhappy with these practices where wrong information was

8 given about consent given by civilian authorities and where, as it follows

9 from your statement, Serbs were meeting separately in relation to these

10 JNA activities? Were you unhappy with the situation?

11 A. Yes, yes. Mostly because they kept meeting amongst themselves,

12 and then only after that, for the sake of appearances, they would talk to

13 me.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You were asked about what you said in an

15 earlier statement about meeting with non-Serbs to see what you could --

16 what could be done to protect non-Serbs. On a question of Ms. Loukas, you

17 said that this was a fabrication. I wondered, and perhaps I read it in

18 full in this report of your interview which does not bear a signature, it

19 reads: "1991, practice with JNA. During these practice exercises, there

20 were two teams. The way the JNA practice was how they later launched

21 their attacks in this area. They did the practice in the area of Bosanska

22 Krupa and Kljuc. When Karabeg --" and they are relating to what you had

23 told them. "When Karabeg and others learned about what was happening,

24 they tried to do something about it, so they called and had meeting with

25 non-Serbs who had been serving with the JNA and had reserve ranks in the

1 JNA and now had different occupations to see what could be done to protect

2 non-Serbs."

3 That's what it says. Could you tell us whether you had -- you

4 just told us that you were unhappy with the whole situation, whether you

5 undertook anything and whether you had these kind of meetings to see what

6 could be done about it.

7 A. You see, there were individuals who had accepted this mobilisation

8 under the auspices of the JNA. But when they arrived, it was clear that

9 they were no longer the JNA. The Chetnik cockades were displayed, and

10 various other insignia which indicated that there was only one nation

11 army. And this caused the dissatisfaction amongst the people who then

12 refused to respond to the call-up. So we wanted to see what could be done

13 with respect to that. But we were fearful of the possibility of these

14 people being mobilised and sent to the battlefield in Croatia where they

15 would serve as cannon fodder and give their lives for nothing. It was no

16 longer a JNA; it was a one-nation Serbian army, Chetnik army, wearing

17 typical Chetnik cockades.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand that if you refer to the protection

19 of non-Serbs, that you were concerned rather about what would happen to

20 them if they would be in the army in Croatia or what could happen to

21 non-Serbs in the region of Sanski Most?

22 A. Both. If this had been the real Yugoslav People's Army wearing

23 red stars on their caps, I wouldn't have been worried. But they had

24 changed the insignia, and they did not hide the fact that it was a Chetnik

25 army and that there was no place for Ustashas and balijas in the ranks of

1 that army. And this is why the people protested, and this is why we

2 wanted to find some way to protect them. And this was only the beginning.

3 These manoeuvres took place, indeed, but other things happened after

4 that, after the war in Slovenia, in Croatia, and later during the war in

5 Bosnia and Herzegovina. But at that time, at the beginning, the idea was

6 simply to protect the people, to avoid negative reaction, and also the

7 possibility of their being killed by the ones who had issued the

8 mobilisation call-up.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And did you find ways, even perhaps if not

10 effective on the long term, but did you find any solutions or did you

11 propose any ways out of the situation you deemed to be not a good one?

12 A. They came to my house, in particular when mobilising the youths,

13 18 or 19 years of age, and my personal advice to them was not to respond

14 to the call-up.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you discuss these kind of matters with

16 others, non-Serbs?

17 A. Yes, I did, yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers. Is there any need for

19 further questions?

20 MR. HANNIS: Not from me, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Loukas, please proceed.

22 Further cross-examined by Ms. Loukas:

23 Q. Just in relation to the questions that His Honour asked,

24 Mr. Karabeg, you're aware that the JNA did not change their insignia? Are

25 you aware when the JNA changed their insignia, firstly, as a general

1 point?

2 A. Individuals did all kinds of things. If you had been in Sanski

3 Most and seen that for yourself, you would have asked a different

4 question. But I cannot give you a specific answer to your question

5 because I really don't know when exactly they changed the insignia.

6 Q. Okay. And now, I'm just wondering if you could tell me what law

7 it is whereby the president of the Executive Board consents to JNA

8 manoeuvres, if you know.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Is this a question that arises from the questions

10 from the Bench?

11 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, everything is related to everything, but

13 this is not a question that arises out of the questions of the Bench.

14 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly, Your Honour. I'll withdraw it.

15 Q. Just in relation to the questions that His Honour asked you, you

16 do, of course, recall giving evidence previously in the Brdjanin and Talic

17 case. And you were asked about these particular JNA exercises. Do you

18 recall being asked about that?

19 A. I do.

20 MS. LOUKAS: Now, Your Honour, those particular portions are, of

21 course, in evidence. Your Honours will recall they're at pages 6213 and

22 6214 where Mr. Karabeg has given some previous answers in relation to

23 these particular military exercises. And I just propose to allow

24 Mr. Karabeg the opportunity to confirm what he said in relation to those

25 exercises at that point, arising from Your Honours' questions.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just...

2 Yes, the problem is how to deal with that. Are we going to read

3 it to him or are we -- it is, of course, in evidence.

4 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed.

5 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour, and I'm willing to agree that the

6 transcript reflects he was asked those questions and he gave those

7 answers.

8 JUDGE ORIE: He gave those answers. Is there any need -- he gave

9 these answers under oath.

10 MS. LOUKAS: No, Your Honour. I note the time, and I would invite

11 Your Honour to look at that particular segment.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that's, then, where the Prosecution agrees

13 that this is a correct transcript of his testimony, you for that reason

14 refrain from asking for confirmation, but at the same time, you have drawn

15 the attention of the Chamber to this part of his evidence.

16 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. That's correct.

17 There is one other aspect, Your Honour, this question about the

18 diary.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 MS. LOUKAS: When does the Bench propose to make a decision about

21 that particular aspect? Because I think, from the Defence perspective,

22 obviously if a diary exists, we would like to see it.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. If the Chamber would like to have it

24 produced, then of course the parties would have a copy as well. And then

25 of course, it would possibly raise an issue of any further examination in

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12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

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15

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1 the future.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. I would be seeking that diary.

3 I place that on the record.

4 JUDGE ORIE: You would like to see it anyhow. You invite the

5 Chamber to ask the witness to produce that.

6 MS. LOUKAS: Precisely, Your Honour, yes.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karabeg, could you tell us where your diary is.

9 Is it at home or is it with you in The Hague?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At home, in Sanski Most.

11 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber gladly accepts your offer to give the

12 original. I think once the parties have inspected the original, that it

13 might be returned to you so that it's your diary.

14 Ms. Loukas, I'm just wondering how to arrange this. Wouldn't it

15 be the best way, since the witness is called by the Prosecution, that the

16 witness -- that the Chamber calls upon the Prosecution to present the

17 diary in evidence? That would save you the concerns about translations,

18 et cetera. So that we ask the witness to give it to the Prosecution.

19 Is it in a booklet or is it looseleaf, Mr. Karabeg? Or is it in

20 a --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's in a bound notebook. I would

22 have to give you the entire notebook, which otherwise contains the overall

23 chronology of events and my notes. Because my note is only part of that.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Wouldn't it be a good procedure that we invite

25 the witness to give this notebook, which is bound as far as I understand,

1 to the Prosecution; that a first glance at the original will be cast on it

2 by Prosecution and Defence in order to identify those parts that seem to

3 be relevant. It might cover a period not relevant for this case. And

4 that then the parties would agree on what parts to be translated in

5 writing. Because I take it for a first impression, not everything has to

6 be translated in full, and the Defence will certainly have an opportunity

7 to look through it and see what's relevant and what's not relevant. And

8 that it will then be produced. And whether this would be a reason to ask

9 Mr. Karabeg to come back is a matter still to be determined once we have

10 received the information.

11 MS. LOUKAS: Precisely, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then that's the procedure.

13 Mr. Karabeg, you'll hear from the Prosecution, someone will be in

14 touch with you in order to organise how you would deliver your notebook to

15 an investigator of the Prosecution. Would you agree with that?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I would. But I'm afraid that

17 you misunderstood me. I will send you the original, the entire notebook,

18 but I'm not willing to have the entire diary translated, only the portion

19 relating to the notes concerning this meeting. There's no need to

20 translate the entire diary. The rest has nothing to do with this. But

21 there's only half a page of text which needs to be translated, which is

22 relevant.

23 JUDGE ORIE: What is relevant and what is not relevant is, of

24 course, it could be some of the events -- because you gave a lot of

25 information both in your statements and in your testimony, the period as

1 such might be of importance. So of course, we are not going to translate

2 any irrelevant parts. And as you may have noticed, that I would like to

3 give an opportunity to the parties to identify what are the relevant

4 parts, and of course this case is not about everything that happened in

5 all periods of time but of course is concentrated on certain events. And

6 of course, especially relevant might be those parts that reflect whatever

7 is in your statements and what is in your testimony, that would be the

8 most relevant part. It could be to see whether dates are correct,

9 correctly stated, or...

10 So I would like to invite you to -- and if you would like the

11 -- if there's any disagreement between the parties about what is relevant

12 and what is irrelevant, that the Chamber would intervene so in order not

13 to reveal any of your personal matters without a clear function in seeking

14 the truth. Would you agree with that?

15 Mr. Hannis.

16 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry. If I may something before he answers,

17 Your Honour. If he has some concerns about personal, private matters that

18 are in his diary that he would not like to be shared with me or with the

19 Defence counsel, perhaps he could indicate in some fashion where those

20 portions are in his diary. We can give that to the Court first to make a

21 determination about whether or not it was relevant or pertinent. And if

22 not, we would never see it, only the Court would. Perhaps he would feel

23 more comfortable with that.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, would that be a...?

25 MS. LOUKAS: Of course, the determination, of course, of what's

1 relevant or not relevant is ultimately a matter for the Court. And I

2 think that the Court would have to examine the document.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but of course the question is whether the first

4 screening, if there are particular parts of which the witness would say

5 this is purely private, that means concerns about the health of his

6 children or, well, whatever, or whether he had a disagreement with a

7 family member, these kind of things, so that they will not -- they will be

8 protected because they could not play any role in what we are seeking, and

9 we are seeking different things than the personal matters of this witness.

10 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. There's no problem in relation

11 to something that is purely personal.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Karabeg, I discussed now with the parties

13 how we could protect your personal life and nevertheless have a more ample

14 opportunity to take advantage of the fact that you have written down notes

15 at the time of the events you are -- you testified about or you gave

16 statements about. Would you agree with that procedure so that you can

17 indicate "Please do not touch this and this and this part." That would

18 not come to the parties but first go to the Chamber so that we can

19 identify that it's really irrelevant and what might be relevant.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay. I agree. But that was not

21 the initial idea of my suggestion. I just wanted to offer you this as

22 proof that I made a note of that meeting in Banja Luka. Now you have

23 expanded it to something else. Of course, I will provide the entire

24 notebook, and I'm prepared to accept your suggestion. I will circle what

25 I consider to be private and wish to remain secret.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would do that, the Chamber is very

2 grateful with your cooperation to allow us to seek the truth as good as we

3 can, assisted by the parties. In some systems, one would say to find the

4 truth rather than to seek the truth, but that's...

5 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just before you finally end on that

6 question, I think there was just a matter that my case manager wanted to

7 clarify in relation to the particular reading out of that last exhibit.

8 And I think it might be appropriate to deal with that at some stage. I

9 just thought I would put that on the record.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Reading out the last exhibit.

11 MS. LOUKAS: That's the caption related to the photograph, Your

12 Honour. That's D14.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

14 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour, it's just that -- I think there was

15 a slight nuance in the translation that my case manager is just explaining

16 to me. But I think it's best if Ms. Cmeric explains that.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Of course. I asked specific attention of the

18 interpreters for specifically this, whether if there would be any need to

19 come back to that, then perhaps it becomes very technical. So then

20 perhaps you could write it down in a few lines and say this is the

21 original text, it has been translated by the interpreters first as the

22 meeting of the Municipal Assembly. Then in my -- then you gave a slightly

23 different translation of it, so that --

24 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I might just get Ms. Cmeric to explain

25 to you what the actual issue is because I think it's better cleared up now

1 than later.

2 JUDGE ORIE: If Ms. Cmeric could enlighten us.

3 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, do we need to do this with

4 the witness still here? If not, perhaps we can let him go.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Would it raise any further issues to be put to the

6 witness?

7 MS. LOUKAS: I tend to think not, Your Honour. It's a very subtle

8 difference.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I take it, Mr. Karabeg, that you'll not leave The

10 Hague within one hour. So if there would be an urgent need to have you

11 back in court, you'll hear from us. But we do not expect that.

12 I'd first like to thank you very much for the evidence you've

13 given. You've answered a lot of questions by both parties and by the

14 Bench. Thank you very much also for your full cooperation in providing

15 your notes to this Chamber. And I wish you a safe trip home again.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours, I

17 should also like to thank you on these fair proceedings.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Karabeg.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Cmeric, I suggest that we do it after the break.

21 We adjourn until 5 minutes to 1.00. And is the Prosecution then ready to

22 call its next witness?

23 MR. HANNIS: We are, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

1 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Cmeric, could you tell us what you have in your

3 mind.

4 MS. CMERIC: Thank you, Your Honour. It's just on the page 40,

5 and I believe it's the end of page 40 and very beginning of page 41. In

6 response to your question, I believe that I made a slip of the tongue,

7 saying that it was a ceremonial session held in the Municipal Assembly.

8 And I believe that created a slight misunderstanding. So the fact is it's

9 not about the translation of the article of the actual language of the

10 article, it's just that it is -- it was actually a ceremonial session of

11 the Municipal Assembly, but held in the cultural centre in Banja Luka, in

12 the cultural centre hall. And for that, I apologise to Your Honours.

13 JUDGE ORIE: That also casts another light on the answer of the

14 witness whether he would recognise this hall. He says, well, I have been

15 there, but it seems different to me.

16 But apart from that, you have put some questions, Ms. Loukas, in

17 relation to this meeting, and especially who was on the front row, apart

18 from whether we can see everyone in the front row. But the Chamber also

19 wondered whether there is one front row of approximately ten chairs or

20 whether there are two front rows. If the -- we cannot see on this

21 photograph whether on the left-hand side of the photograph there's a path

22 in the middle of the hall or whether it's just the... And even that would

23 leave open other questions like whether this was the meeting or it was at

24 the same time and whether people ever moved from the first row to other

25 rows. Well, a lot of questions. But specifically, the question on if

1 this is the hall of the cultural centre, whether this is ten chairs wide

2 or two times ten chairs, that's an issue the Chamber would very much like

3 to be informed about. Also, in order to better be able to evaluate the

4 testimony of the witness.

5 MS. LOUKAS: I appreciate that, Your Honour. And of course that

6 photograph indeed only arrived just prior to us coming into Court. But of

7 course, we'll be calling further evidence in relation to that ultimately,

8 of course, in the Defence case. But if we can get any more clarity in

9 relation to that question prior to that, Your Honour, we will be informing

10 the Trial Chamber as soon as possible.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much. I thank you for your

12 explanation, Ms. Cmeric.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, there is one further matter. There's

14 obviously one outstanding matter in terms of material to be tendered in

15 respect of this witness and of course in respect to Sanski Most overall,

16 and that's this Rule 68 material in relation to the witness Mr. Adil

17 Draganovic. And of course that material incorporates that statement that

18 Your Honour was asking about as well. And I think that we could probably

19 get that together probably not today, because we'll need to print out that

20 material, but possibly tomorrow I would have thought.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand you well that you say you'd rather

22 have this material tendered until now all in the same context of Sanski

23 Most, because we had some problems of authenticity of some documents were

24 concerned. We had another document where at least the Chamber didn't know

25 where it came from.

1 MR. HANNIS: I know there was a Defence objection to, I think,

2 item number 111, P111, and I think P113. And Your Honour had asked, I

3 think, for some additional information, and I advised the Court yesterday

4 that the information I had was our internal documentation showed it had

5 been received from AID in November 1995. I have been unable to learn that

6 there's any additional information about where those documents were

7 between the date on the document, June 1992, and November 1995. However,

8 in the testimony -- yes, the 92 bis (D) statements of Adil Draganovic and

9 in the testimony of three other witnesses who are sensitive sources who

10 testified in the Brdjanin/Talic case who were also listed as witnesses in

11 this case and of whom I think two if not three will be testifying in this

12 case, talk about that specific document. And Mr. Draganovic talks in some

13 detail about the whole collection of documents from Sanski Most that he

14 found and turned over to AID and some that he turned over directly to the

15 OTP.

16 Your Honour, so with that in mind, I know the Court would perhaps

17 like to have some additional information, but we would like to tender

18 Exhibits 98 through 115 at this time with whatever reservations the Court

19 has about any of those specific items.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber finds it appropriate to delay the

22 decision. That would not be necessary for all of the exhibits as a matter

23 of fact, because some of them seem to be very unproblematic. But in order

24 not to lose one or two out of sight, we would rather deal with all of them

25 perhaps at the end of Sanski Most or at any appropriate moment when we

1 have sufficient information to give proper decisions on it.

2 If the parties would agree with that, but even if they would not

3 agree with that, I'd like to ask the usher to escort the next witness into

4 the courtroom.

5 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, while that's being done, I'll just

6 quickly use up the time, if I may. Your Honour asked for a reference to

7 the evidence-in-chief in relation to the question of those two villages

8 Vrhpolje and Hrustovo. And, Your Honour, that particular reference is

9 page 6159 in the evidence-in-chief. And of course, that will have to --

10 that page or perhaps the surrounding pages will have to form part of the

11 exhibits for this particular segment.

12 JUDGE ORIE: If then both parties, where reference is made to the

13 examination-in-chief, could tender the relevant pages so that we have them

14 all, of course we could find them elsewhere, but that's not the way of

15 doing it. If you would provide the Chamber with the relevant pages.

16 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: The next witness, as far as I understand, there are

18 no protective measures in effect, Mr. Resch? And it would be Mr. Rajif

19 Begic.

20 MR. RESCH: That's correct, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, please escort the witness into the

22 courtroom.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Begic, as I understand.

25 Mr. Begic, before --

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

2 JUDGE ORIE: -- giving evidence in this court, the Rules of

3 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that

4 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. May I

5 invite you to make that solemn declaration of which the text has been

6 handed out to you now by the usher.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Begic. Please be seated.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You will first be examined by counsel for the

12 Prosecution, Mr. Resch. Mr. Resch, please proceed.

13 MR. RESCH: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 WITNESS: RAJIF BEGIC

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Examined by Mr. Resch:

17 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Could you please tell us your name.

18 A. My name is Rajif Begic.

19 Q. Mr. Begic, when were you born?

20 A. I was born on the 23rd of September, 1967.

21 Q. Where were you born, Mr. Begic?

22 A. I was born in Klijevci, near Sanski Most.

23 Q. Where have you lived between when you were born and 1992?

24 A. I lived in the village of Begici near Sanski Most, and I went to

25 four years of primary school in Klijevci and another four years in Tomina,

1 and then I did my vocational training in Sanski Most.

2 MR. RESCH: Your Honour, I would like to have the first map given

3 an exhibit number and shown to the witness.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, of course, we still expect a few other exhibits

5 in relation to the witness we had, but I think we just continue the

6 numbering now. And Madam Registrar, what would be the next number?

7 THE REGISTRAR: The next number, I believe, is P115.

8 JUDGE ORIE: 115.

9 THE REGISTRAR: 116.

10 JUDGE ORIE: 116.

11 MR. RESCH: Your Honour, I hope this document can be available on

12 the computer monitors through the Sanction programme.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that depends on your -- yes, we have

14 got it on our screen at this moment.

15 MR. RESCH:

16 Q. Mr. Begic, you said you lived in the village of Begici. Do we see

17 that near the bottom of the map, the south end of Sanski Most, the

18 direction of Kljuc? Just above Vrhpolje?

19 A. Yes, by Vrhpolje, yes.

20 Q. You said you also -- you were born in the village of Klijevci,

21 which is also just to the northwest of Begici?

22 A. Yes, correct.

23 Q. Go ahead.

24 A. Begici and Kenjari belongs to Klijevci. It is within the

25 composition of the village of Klijevci and the village is Begici. So when

1 it is listed in documents, they list the main place, Klijevci and not

2 Begici.

3 Q. Okay, thank you. And just so everyone is clear, you previously

4 testified before this Tribunal in May of 2002 in the Brdjanin and Talic

5 trial, didn't you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. We'll be covering a number of those same events, but it's

8 important that we talk about them in full so this Chamber can also know of

9 the events that you are here to testify about.

10 I'd like to first talk about May of 1992 in Sanski Most. At that

11 time, you were living in the hamlet of Begici, which is part of the

12 settlement or village of Klijevci. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. You'll need to make an audible response for the

15 record.

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. What was the ethnic background or make-up of most of the

18 population of Begici?

19 A. In the hamlet of Begici, in fact, in the village of Klijevci,

20 looking from Sanski Most, the Sanski Most direction, Klijevci, as on the

21 photograph, are most inhabited by Serbs. Then next to us is the Kenjari

22 hamlet, which was inhabited by the Muslims. And right next to us was the

23 hamlet of Stojanovici with a Serb population. And then the Begici hamlet

24 once again was Muslim populated. So it was intermittent, Serb, Muslim,

25 and mixed. Several houses were Croatian households towards Kasapnica, to

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1 Hrustovo and Vrhpolje.

2 Q. I forgot to ask earlier, but what is your nationality, sir?

3 A. I'm a Muslim.

4 Q. In May of 1992, did you observe soldiers patrolling in the area

5 around your village?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Could you tell us about what you saw, what -- who were these

8 soldiers?

9 A. Next to us, the first hamlet, Stojanovici, a Serb hamlet, they had

10 a checkpoint on the main road leading to Kenjari. And at that checkpoint,

11 there were our Serb neighbours. It was manned by Serb neighbours dressed

12 in army uniforms. And -- but nothing important happened at that

13 checkpoint, nothing of significance. But if somebody tried to pass by

14 that way, they would stop them, search the vehicle or tractor or whatever

15 you were driving through. And we knew that in Klijevci, in the four-year

16 primary school was the location of a unit by a man called Mijatovic who

17 was the leader there of that group. And he came to visit our hamlet on

18 one occasion with two or three soldiers, accompanied by two or three

19 soldiers, just to see the lie of the land. And we learned from him that

20 that's how things stood.

21 Q. Was that Mijatovic, was he a Serb?

22 A. Yes, he was a Serb.

23 Q. Do you know if he was a member of any particular military unit?

24 A. Well, I really can't say. I think it was all the 6th Krajina

25 group throughout that territory. Now, whether that unit had a special

1 name, I really can't say.

2 Q. Do you know who the commander of the 6th Krajina Brigade was in

3 May of 1992?

4 A. Yes. The commander was Commander Branko Basara.

5 MR. RESCH: Your Honour, if I could have the next map, it's the

6 Hrustovo-Vrhpolje overview map, given an identification number and placed

7 in front of the witness.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, this map will be marked P116.

9 JUDGE ORIE: We just had 116. Would it not then be 117 now?

10 THE REGISTRAR: I'm sorry, Your Honour. P117.

11 JUDGE ORIE: From what I see on my screen, Mr. Resch, I do not

12 know what questions are there to come, but we had -- well, it's a

13 procedural incident. If we could just stop for one second. We had a

14 procedural incident where a witness was asked about certain features in

15 the area, and they -- one second, Mr. Usher.

16 We had an incident where the Defence complained about the answer

17 being shown on eight small pictures close to a map. I don't know what

18 your questions will be, but if you would like to -- for example, to ask

19 him which were the houses of the eight richest people in the area and you

20 would show eight houses that by any chance would be in the possession of

21 the most rich people in that area, then the -- I could expect a similar

22 objection from the Defence. And as I -- as the Chamber decided before,

23 that would not be the proper way of doing it. So I've got no idea what

24 you were going to ask the witness, but if the answer you expect would be

25 the same as we see on eight small pictures, then I'd rather you to ask the

1 question without showing these pictures to the witness.

2 MR. RESCH: Your Honour, I will be asking questions about two of

3 the eight pictures. And I have a blowup of one of the eight. But I don't

4 think the questions are in the same vein as yesterday, and they're not

5 necessarily going to be --

6 JUDGE ORIE: You're not going to ask -- to identify, to say, for

7 example, do you know any grocery shops, and there would be two grocery

8 shops on this picture? Then I would like you to ask could you tell us

9 where the grocery shops in the village were, and then later on you could

10 ask confirmation on whether what the witness answered is shown on this

11 picture.

12 MR. RESCH: I don't think they're as -- the photographs and the

13 map is not as suggestive.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. You're sufficiently warned now, I would say.

15 So please proceed.

16 MR. RESCH: If the witness could also have a pen because I will be

17 asking him to make some marks on this map eventually.

18 Q. Exhibit P117 is an overview map of a portion of Sanski Most, the

19 southern middle region of Sanski Most, if I can characterise it that way,

20 showing a close-up view of the area between Klijevci and Vrhpolje, which

21 we'll be discussing during the testimony.

22 During May of 1992, do you recall any radio broadcasts regarding

23 calls for turning in weapons in Sanski Most?

24 A. There were calls like that prior to the events themselves, which

25 took place on the 31st of May, just before those events. But over a long

1 period of time, no, I know that it happened very briefly before the events

2 themselves that such calls did exist.

3 Q. Were these calls to turn in arms directed at any one national

4 group or the other?

5 A. Yes. Through the radio, over the radio, Sanski Most Radio, the

6 population, whole population, was informed of this. Hrustovo, Vrhpolje,

7 Klijevci, and all the others, to surrender their weapons, to hand them in

8 to the nearest Serbian checkpoint, the closest checkpoint to them. So

9 appeals of that kind were made over the radio.

10 Q. And did you or anyone from your village turn in any weapons?

11 A. Yes, we did.

12 Q. What sort of weapons did you turn in?

13 A. The weapons we had in our village that we knew about, that had

14 been there for many years before that, we handed in those weapons. And I

15 know exactly who had what and who turned in what. At our checkpoint, our

16 neighbours went to the checkpoint who had weapons and handed them over.

17 They were Muhamed Bilic. He had an old hunting rifle. It was of the

18 Zastava trademark. It was a very old rifle. And then Begic Hadija had a

19 9-millimetre pistol, and we all knew about that because it was registered

20 regularly. And Kula Ismet handed over a pistol belonging to his

21 brother-in-law, Hadzic Musta, who was not there. He was working in

22 Slovenia during that period and his wife gave her brother the pistol to

23 hand it over in their names so they wouldn't have any problems being in

24 possession of such a weapon. Midhet Ceric, or Enes, they handed over a

25 pistol, too. I don't know what the brand of that was or what the calibre

1 was, but I do know that those four weapons were handed over to the Serbs

2 who were manning the checkpoint closest to us.

3 Q. Do you know if your -- any of your Serb neighbours turned in

4 weapons to these checkpoints in response to these calls for turning in

5 weapons?

6 A. I don't understand you.

7 Q. Were you aware of any of your Serb neighbours turning in weapons

8 in response to these calls?

9 A. No. They still -- they were still in possession of those weapons.

10 And it wasn't stated that the Serb population should hand in their

11 weapons. This just applied to the Muslims. They were told to hand in

12 their weapons. So I didn't see any of the Serbs hand in their weapons,

13 no.

14 Q. I'd like now to move to the 25th of May, 1992. Do you recall

15 soldiers entering your village on the 25th of May?

16 A. Yes, I do recall that. They entered the villages around noon.

17 They came to our hamlet of Donji Begici. And during those few seconds, or

18 a few seconds before that, two small boys warned me that the soldiers were

19 coming and that I should take refuge, take shelter. So I hid by the river

20 several hundreds metres away from my house where I could observe what was

21 going on from that vantage point, see what was happening in our hamlet.

22 Q. Were you by yourself?

23 A. No. I was with my younger brother and uncle Munib when we hid

24 from the soldiers. Or cousin, with my cousin.

25 Q. What was your brother's name?

1 A. His name was Nedzad Begic.

2 Q. How old was he in 1992?

3 A. He was 18 at the time.

4 Q. And your cousin, I didn't catch his name. How old was he and what

5 was his first name?

6 A. At the time, he was 26. And his name was Munib Begic.

7 Q. Were you able to see what the soldiers did when they entered

8 Begici?

9 A. Yes. They entered into the -- entered the hamlet of Gornji Begici

10 and Donji Begici at the same time. I couldn't see what was going on up

11 there in Gornji Begici but I learned about it later on, whereas they

12 entered Donji Begici and maltreated the people. They beat my mother, for

13 example, and two other elderly persons, Huse and Radojka Begic, and they

14 intimidated the population generally, the population that they had

15 collected together in a garage, and some people shouted out, Beat them,

16 set fire to the houses, and things like that. And then a soldier, Dusko

17 Savic, who went to school with me for a few years, four years of

18 elementary school, he beat up my mother and took all her gold jewellery

19 away from her and all her money. So there was a lot of provocation like

20 that, and after that event, they withdrew towards the checkpoint at

21 Stojanovici. And they also killed my dog on the occasion.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: A moment ago it was

23 cousin, not uncle.

24 MR. RESCH:

25 Q. These soldiers who entered Begici on the 25th of May, do you know

1 what unit they were from or what their ethnicity was?

2 A. They were Serb soldiers. And the unit, those who already lived in

3 Klijevci, or rather were in Klijevci, Mijatovici. However, in Gornji

4 Begici, it was the Serbs, the neighbouring Serbs living next to our hamlet

5 who entered that hamlet. Cosic, Ranko Cosic and his men. So they entered

6 Gornji Begici, the upper hamlet, and behaved like that and had control

7 over the area.

8 Q. What were these soldiers wearing?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Resch, we heard as the evidence of this witness

10 that "I couldn't see what was going on there in Gornji Begici." And then

11 later on he testified of what happened in a garage when he was supposed to

12 be at a distance of a couple of hundred metres. And now you're asking

13 further questions on what happened in Gornji Begici. He described they

14 behaved like that and had control of the area. Could you try to find out

15 more specifically what is the personal observation of the witness and what

16 is hearsay and what's then the source of what he learned. Please proceed.

17 MR. RESCH: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Is it fair to say Begici is divided into two halves; Gornji Begici

19 and Donji Begici?

20 A. Yes, I've already said that.

21 Q. And from where you and your brother and cousin were hiding, would

22 you -- which Begici could you observe?

23 A. Donji Begici. We could observe several houses located next to the

24 Sana. We could also see many soldiers. We could hear shouts. We could

25 hear people moan as they were being beaten. We could distinctly hear all

1 of their voices, plus what I learned afterwards from my mother. And I

2 also learned who was there.

3 Q. So you learned from your mother about the events that day in

4 Gornji Begici. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes. Also, what happened in Gornji Begici, because they went to

6 Gornji Begici and learned from the locals there what had happened to them.

7 Q. The soldiers who were in Donji Begici, could you recognise some of

8 them?

9 A. I couldn't, but when my mother told me that it was Dusko Savic, I

10 believed her because we all knew each other because we went to school

11 together. She recognised others as well, but she couldn't be bothered to

12 tell me all of their names. But she identified him because she had had

13 contacts with his mother and he went to the nearby school. It is all a

14 very small area. The village of Klijevci is not far away and we basically

15 know each other.

16 Q. Were any houses destroyed on the 25th of May?

17 A. Not at that time.

18 Q. What about property? Was any property taken from any people, as

19 far as you either saw or were told?

20 A. Yes. Some took cars. Some took tractors. They said that this

21 property was being commandeered for the needs of the military. We didn't

22 say anything against that. Mustafic's car, for instance, was taken away.

23 We didn't pay much attention to that. But I know that as far as my

24 mother's is concerned, her gold jewellery and money was taken away. I

25 don't know about others, so I cannot testify about that. On that

1 occasion.

2 Q. Let's move to the 31st of May, 1992. Did you hear any radio

3 broadcasts on that day about military events in the area?

4 A. No. Nothing was broadcast over the radio, nothing concerning the

5 events that were to take place. I don't even know whether we had

6 electricity in those days. I cannot remember. But as far as I recall,

7 nothing was broadcast. Nothing major, at any rate.

8 Q. Did you see any soldiers or did any soldiers arrive in Begici on

9 the 31st of May?

10 A. Yes. On the 31st of May in the afternoon, from the direction of

11 Dizdarevici, the area where several houses are located right next to the

12 road, they started with those houses. They rounded up the populations

13 there and told them to go in the direction of Donji Begici. And when they

14 got to where we were, they told us to come out and to go, all of us, to

15 Gornji Begici. There were many soldiers around on that day.

16 Q. Do you know what unit these soldiers were from?

17 A. No. I don't know which particular unit they belonged to, but I

18 think that they were all members of that unit which was located in the

19 school in Klijevci.

20 Q. That was the unit of the 6th Krajina Brigade in Klijevci?

21 A. Yes, yes, of course, because the 6th Krajina Brigade had a wider

22 area of responsibility which included not only Klijevci, but Sanski Most

23 and its surroundings. So that's why I think that all of these events were

24 happening in the area which was under the control of the 6th Krajina

25 Brigade.

1 Q. To be clear, these soldiers who showed up on the 31st of May, were

2 they Serbs?

3 A. Yes, they were Serbs.

4 Q. Did you recognise any of them or know any of them?

5 A. Yes, I knew them. Apart from our next-door neighbours, I also

6 knew several young men who lived in Sanski Most. Some I knew by sight;

7 some I'd gone to school with or socialised with at the time I was an

8 apprentice, so I know that they were Serbs.

9 Q. You were saying the soldiers told everyone to go to Gornji Begici.

10 Is that what happened?

11 A. Yes. That's what we did. We helped some elderly people, and we

12 went to Gornji Begici, all of us.

13 Q. Were these soldiers armed?

14 A. Of course they were armed.

15 Q. Did you feel you had any choice but to follow their orders or

16 instructions?

17 A. No, absolutely not. We didn't even try to look for an option, for

18 an alternative because they had expressly told us not to move too far away

19 from our homes, both in Gornji Begici and Donji Begici. So when they --

20 it was on that first occasion when they arrived that they told the

21 population to stick together until further notice. And that's why I

22 decided when I got home not to move around too much, not to leave the

23 area. I was just prepared to meet my fate.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Just in relation to that, Your Honour, the -- I'm

25 loath to constantly object, but Your Honour's injunction about ensuring

1 that what information is personal observation of the witness and what is

2 perhaps hearsay, particularly when we have a reference to an answer that

3 includes Donji Begici and Gornji Begici, perhaps those sort of matters

4 could be cleared up by the Prosecution. That answer does seem to

5 interpolate both personal observation and hearsay.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Resch, if you could keep that in mind.

7 Although it's here, it seems to be a bit less disturbing than it was when

8 I made the intervention. Please proceed. And may I ask your attention

9 also for the clock and to find a suitable moment to stop within, well,

10 let's say, the next three minutes.

11 MR. RESCH: I've got a point in mind, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 MR. RESCH:

14 Q. When the soldiers told you to head towards Gornji Begici, were you

15 with any of your family members?

16 A. Yes, we were all together at that moment. Donji Begici consisted

17 of five houses, and the population of those five households were all

18 together. And we went to Gornji Begici together, all of us.

19 Q. Which family members were with you?

20 A. At that time, my mother was there and my two younger brothers.

21 Q. Maybe this would help clear up some of the confusion: How far is

22 Gornji Begici from Donji Begici?

23 A. Several hundred metres.

24 Q. What happened when you got to Gornji Begici?

25 A. When we arrived in Gornji Begici, we realised that the soldiers

1 had already taken possession of the village. They were already deployed

2 along the road. And we could see from Safet Begic's basement that the

3 villagers of Gornji Begici were coming out. Apparently, they had been

4 ordered to remain in the basement throughout that time.

5 MR. RESCH: Your Honour, that's about as convenient a spot as any.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Begic, we'll stop for today. We would like

7 to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00, as far as I'm aware of in the

8 same courtroom. Madam Registrar, I think, the same courtroom. And I'd

9 like to instruct you not to speak with anyone; not with Defence, not with

10 Prosecution, no one, about the testimony you have given or the testimony

11 you expect to give tomorrow. So no conversations about your testimony

12 with anyone.

13 We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th day of May,

17 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

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