1 Monday, 1 November 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Ms. Edgerton, since you're standing, may I take it that you'll

11 examine the next witness?

12 MS. EDGERTON: Correct, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Are you ready to call the next witness?

14 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour. That's Elvir Jahic.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please put in your microphone, yes.

16 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

17 courtroom.

18 MS. LOUKAS: While the witness is being brought in, Your Honour, I

19 can indicate that Mr. Stewart won't be here today, and Ms. Cmeric won't be

20 here today either. Ms. Cmeric has had to return to Belgrade. She will be

21 back, I think, on Wednesday afternoon. In the meantime, of course, that

22 means we won't have, on the part of the Defence, a B/C/S speaker in the

23 courtroom. That, of course, requires some adjustment in terms of our

24 ability to speak with Mr. Krajisnik during the break. And I've made some

25 arrangements with the Registry in relation to having a translator

1 available, but of course, we may require slightly longer breaks to

2 communicate with Mr. Krajisnik and matters of that sort. And I just put

3 that on the record so Your Honours are aware of the situation.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that under these circumstances you

5 will need other practical arrangements. It was last Friday when it was

6 announced that Ms. Cmeric really needed a few days off. Then the witness

7 came in. Otherwise we would have wished her a few nice days after a lot

8 of hard work. But since the witness was then entering the courtroom, I

9 thought that it was not appropriate. So that was what was on my mind last

10 Friday, and you could perhaps communicate that.

11 MS. LOUKAS: I will, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: And I'm sure that it was not only on my mind, but

13 also on the mind of the Chamber as a whole.

14 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, and I'll certainly communicate that to

15 Ms. Cmeric.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Mr. Jahic, can you hear me in a

18 language you understand?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I hear you very well.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jahic, before you give evidence in this court,

21 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn

22 declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

23 the truth. The text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher. May I

24 invite you to make that solemn declaration.

25 WITNESS: ELVIR JAHIC

1 [Witness answered through interpreter].

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jahic.

5 Please be seated. Mr. Jahic, Ms. Edgerton, who is counsel for the

6 Prosecution, will examine you first.

7 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton

8 Examined by Ms. Edgerton:

9 Q. Good morning, Mr. Jahic.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Jahic.

12 A. Good morning.

13 Q. Mr. Jahic, as we begin, I'd just like to ask you a little bit of

14 background information about yourself and where you're from. I understand

15 you were born in the settlement of Ahatovici and have spent most of your

16 life there; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you tell us which municipality Ahatovici is located in.

19 A. Ahatovici is a settlement belonging to the Novi Grad municipality

20 of Sarajevo, which means it is a suburb of Sarajevo, on the periphery.

21 Q. When you say on the periphery, could you give us an idea of

22 approximately how far Ahatovici is from the Sarajevo city centre, for

23 example.

24 A. Ahatovici is at a distance of approximately 15 kilometres from the

25 centre of the city of Sarajevo.

1 Q. Now, perhaps you could tell us about the size of the settlement

2 itself. For example, could you give us an idea how many family homes were

3 located in the settlement in 1992?

4 A. In Ahatovici, there were approximately 100 or, rather, 100 to 120

5 family homes, and they were inhabited predominantly by the Muslim

6 population. In percentage terms, more than 90 per cent were Muslims,

7 Muslims living in Ahatovici.

8 Q. Now, what about the settlements and areas adjoining and

9 surrounding Ahatovici settlement? Were those mainly Muslim or Serb or

10 mixed settlements?

11 A. The surrounding Ahatovici settlements were Dobrosevici, Bojnik

12 Mihajlevici, Rajlovac, Belugovici, Reljevo, and some of these

13 settlements were inhabited by a majority Serb population, whereas in one

14 or two of the settlements that I enumerated, there was a mixed population.

15 Some were Bosnian Serbs, some others were Bosnian Croats, and there were

16 some Muslims and other ethnicities.

17 Q. Now, of the list that you've just given us, could you identify

18 which settlements or areas were mixed.

19 A. In Bojnik, for instance, you had a mixed population. And in

20 Dobrosevici, as well, and Mihajlevici too. But percentage-wise, it was

21 the -- the majority population were the Serbs.

22 Q. And the other settlements that you've enumerated, then, including

23 Reljevo and Rajlovac, were majority Serb population; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were there any JNA facilities in the area of your settlement?

1 A. Yes, there were. For example, on the local commune of

2 Dobrosevici, under which Ahatovici comes, there were two barracks, in

3 fact, belonging to the former Yugoslav People's Army, or more

4 specifically, in Butile, which is to the south-west of Ahatovici. And in

5 Rajlovac as well, there was another barracks, which was an air force

6 barracks and anti-air attack premises. And that is south-east of

7 Ahatovici. There was another barracks which was located in Ilijas, the

8 Ilijas municipality. It was very close to Ahatovici, not that far away

9 from Ahatovici. And it was to the north-west of Ahatovici.

10 Q. Do you know the name of that barracks, by any chance?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Now, after that background information, could I take you directly

13 to the period leading up to the takeover of your settlement in 1992.

14 First, I'd like to ask you: Can you recall any event which

15 resulted in this serious limitation of freedom of movement of the people

16 of your settlement?

17 A. Well, this is what happened: Immediately before the attack on

18 Ahatovici, or the aggression launched against Ahatovici, my village and

19 the surrounding settlements was engulfed with a wartime psychosis. There

20 was a mood that prevailed that was like that. And this affected

21 celebrations and festivities, for example, the festivities that were

22 organised by the Serb inhabitants, our neighbours, for example. There

23 would be a lot of nationalistic songs sung, and songs which directly had a

24 threatening note and message to us Muslims in Ahatovici. They were

25 songs -- for instance, one was a song about Topola, and another called

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 the Chetniks to rally and organise, for example. And another one was

2 about a young Turkish girl who swore in front of a mosque that she only

3 loved Serbs. And as far as restriction of movement was concerned --

4 actually, the position of Ahatovici is such that from the city of

5 Sarajevo, it is separated by the Bosna River, which had two bridges.

6 There were two bridges which would let you reach the town of Sarajevo.

7 And these two bridges had been taken control of by the Chetniks.

8 Q. If I can just stop you there and ask you: Do you recall at what

9 time, approximately, those bridges had been occupied or taken control of?

10 A. I can't tell you exactly, give you an exact date when it all

11 started, but I assume a rough guess would be that it began one or two

12 months prior to the beginning of the aggression.

13 Q. Now, just speaking about the bridges being taken control of, can

14 you tell us how they were taken control of?

15 A. Yes. What happened was that barricades were erected, with several

16 machine-gun nests, and the hedgehog devices were erected. There was

17 general control of the area, so you couldn't reach the city of Sarajevo.

18 Q. Now, did those barricades you've just described remain in place

19 from the time of the erection until the takeover of your settlement?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know who manned those barricades?

22 A. On two or three occasions, I personally tried to cross those

23 barricades, because there was -- the shops in Ahatovici were not well

24 supplied with food and other goods, cigarettes, for example, and other

25 staples. So I tried to reach Sarajevo to buy cigarettes, for example, and

1 some food.

2 Q. Could you tell us what happened when you tried to cross those

3 barricades.

4 A. I was stopped by some people. I knew some of them, but not

5 others. And for me to be able to cross over into Sarajevo, they asked me

6 to sign a loyalty oath to the Republika Srpska. That was a condition that

7 they laid down. And I had my doubts, because there were previous events

8 in which people were arrested and taken to camps, for example. So I was a

9 bit wary. That was the condition they set. But I wasn't able to pass

10 through the barricades.

11 Q. Now, you said when you went to those barricades, you recognised

12 some people. Do you recall their names?

13 A. I recall some of them. I recognised some of my friends from

14 school, for example, schoolmates who were there up at the barricades. I

15 don't know whether they were on duty there, but I saw them. They were

16 people who lived in the settlement of Bojnik, for example, and perhaps

17 some of them were from Mihajlovic.

18 Q. Do you know their ethnicity?

19 A. They were Serbs.

20 Q. Now, also in this period leading up to the attack on your village,

21 did you observe any physical activity going on around the outside of the

22 settlement which might have led you to be concerned for the safety of

23 yourself or your fellow residents?

24 A. Yes. Just before the aggression on Ahatovici, all the inhabitants

25 of Ahatovici, all of us, were able to see that the regular army, that is

1 to say the Yugoslav People's Army, had left the area around the barracks

2 which I mentioned in my statement. And a lot of the local inhabitants,

3 the Bosnian Serbs, left to join up the reserve formations of the Yugoslav

4 People's Army. And then they started fortifying themselves. They started

5 amassing heavy weapons around Ahatovici, in Paljevo, Tjepovac, those were

6 the areas where this took place. And in some private houses as well. For

7 example, the Koprivica houses and the Torbica houses. What was happening,

8 in actual fact, as far as we were able to see and gather, was that this

9 was heavy weaponry, mostly Howitzers, cannons and tanks, with their

10 barrels turned on Ahatovici. And 90 per cent of the population, as well

11 as myself, led us to realise that Ahatovici was going to be attacked, that

12 there was an aggression being prepared against Ahatovici and an attack

13 against Ahatovici.

14 Q. If I can just stop you for a second and go back and ask you a

15 couple of questions about what you've just described. Let's talk first of

16 all about the departure of the regular army from the barracks you've

17 previously identified.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you yourself see the departure of the regular army?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you tell us what you saw.

22 A. Well, I saw columns of military vehicles, trucks, APCs, larger

23 ones, smaller ones, and they were moving along the road from Bojnik to

24 Stup, roughly speaking. They were going off somewhere. I didn't know

25 where they were going to. But this led me to think that they were leaving

1 those military facilities, pulling out.

2 Q. And could you just tell us where Stup is in relation to Bojnik and

3 the Sarajevo city centre.

4 A. Well, Stup is to the north of Ahatovici. Yes. We could say it

5 was north, because there's Bojnik and it's at the entrance to the city of

6 Sarajevo itself.

7 Q. Now, you also mentioned something you described as fortifying.

8 What did you mean by that?

9 A. Well, the heavy weapons from the barracks, from that barracks or

10 some other barracks around Sarajevo, they dug these fortifications with

11 dredges and the Howitzers and guns and cannons were being entrenched in

12 this area of Rajlovac towards Bojnik and we could see them digging in,

13 that they were pulling out the tanks and making a sort of shelter for

14 those tanks and the barrels of all the weaponry that I mentioned were

15 turned on Ahatovici.

16 Q. Now, if I could ask you: As a result of everything you've just

17 described, did you or any others take any steps that you thought might

18 ease the tensions?

19 A. Yes. I don't know exactly how much time before the attack, the

20 direct attack on Ahatovici, a group of about 10 or 12 - I can't give you

21 an exact number - of Ahatovici locals, and I was among them, went to the

22 Butile barracks, and our purpose in going there was to join up with the

23 reserve formation of the then Yugoslav People's Army, to have a more mixed

24 composition for the army and to come by some weapons. Because we realised

25 that an attack, an aggression, was being prepared against Ahatovici.

1 Q. And what happened when you went to Butile barracks?

2 A. After a brief conversation with the commander of the barracks - I

3 can't remember his name just now - and his position was categoric; he

4 said -- he found a pretext and said that -- and gave us a reason why we

5 couldn't join up with the reserve formation of the JNA.

6 Q. Did you ask him why not?

7 A. I can't remember what he said. A lot of time has gone by since

8 then. It's been 12 years, 1992, and it's 2004 now, so you can see for

9 yourself. I really can't remember.

10 Q. At this time as well, do you recall having heard anything in the

11 media, for example, of events in other areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

12 A. Well, via the media, we were able to hear that in Eastern Bosnia,

13 for example, and in some other towns, that the population had been

14 slaughtered, more precisely, in Foca, Bijeljina, et cetera, Zvornik, not

15 to mention some other towns.

16 Q. As time drew closer to the attack on your settlement, did you

17 receive any information of events in neighbouring or nearby non-Serb

18 settlements?

19 A. Well, we had some information which later turned out to be

20 correct, namely, that in Semizovac, in Surake, nearby populated areas, a

21 lot of people had already been killed or taken to camps, and that there

22 was a large number of troops, including Seselj's men and some other

23 paramilitary formations.

24 Q. Could you just tell us where Surake and Semizovac are located.

25 A. Surake and Semizovac belong to Vogosca municipality, and they are

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 to the north-east of Ahatovici. The distances may be 20 to 30 kilometres

2 as the crow flies, roughly. I can't be precise. But please don't take my

3 word for it.

4 Q. Do you have any recollection now of how you received this

5 information about events in Surake and Semizovac?

6 A. Through the media, and also from people who somehow managed to

7 flee and to reach free territory. Those people told others about what had

8 happened in their villages and the villages around them.

9 Q. As things were building up, then, did you and other members of

10 your settlement make any effort to save certain members of the population

11 of the settlement, to evacuate them?

12 A. Yes, we did. It was maybe ten days before the direct, all-out

13 attack on Ahatovici. We tried to pull out women, children, and the

14 elderly, with the idea of following them later.

15 Q. How did you try to do that?

16 A. Well, within Ahatovici, we organised a couple of men who owned

17 trucks, vans, and similar vehicles, and at a certain point - I don't know

18 exactly at which time - all the civilian population started moving out,

19 using this transportation, towards Visoko municipality.

20 Q. And Visoko municipality lay in what direction in relation to

21 Ahatovici?

22 A. To the north-west, if I'm not mistaken, from Ahatovici. It was a

23 road little used; in fact, a track through the woods. Up to a certain

24 point you could drive, but there was a large section of the track where

25 you had to go on foot.

1 Q. Now, you said you weren't sure exactly what time this group set

2 out, but could you maybe give us an idea if this was in the daytime or in

3 the evening? Was it light or dark outside?

4 A. They set out early in the morning. It could have been 6.30,

5 7.00 a.m. That convoy set out very early in the morning from Ahatovici,

6 and then at the exit from Ahatovici, near a place called Torbica, they

7 were stopped by those Serb neighbours of ours, led by Jovo Torbica. He

8 smirked at those people - I know this because I was escorting the

9 convoy - and said to them: Where are you headed, neighbours? Is

10 something going on? And there was a lot of cynicism and irony in his

11 voice.

12 The convoy was able to pass through, nevertheless, and they

13 continued on to Bioci, B-i-o-c-i -- B-i-o-c-a, sorry, but they couldn't go

14 on. They had to dismount the vehicles and continue on foot, the women and

15 the children.

16 Then, when they reached the locality of Crni Potoci, which belongs

17 to the Ilijas municipality, this convoy of about 150 women, children, and

18 the elderly came under machine-gun fire. I don't think the idea was to

19 kill those people, but it was the idea to make it clear to them they had

20 to turn back so that this attempt by civilians to leave Ahatovici was

21 unsuccessful.

22 Q. And did they then do that? Did they turn back?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you have any knowledge of anybody injured or killed as a result

25 of the machine-gun fire?

1 A. Not as far as I know.

2 Q. In addition to escorting this convoy, did you have any close

3 family members who were a part of the convoy?

4 A. Yes, I did. There was the wife of my late brother, who got

5 killed, and her baby, around 12 months old. I also had a lot of close and

6 not-so-close relatives in that convoy. I don't want to enumerate them

7 here.

8 Q. Now, in addition to trying to evacuate civilians, did you do

9 anything else, you or the other residents of your settlement, to prepare

10 for an impending attack?

11 A. Since we were left to our own devices and unable to leave in the

12 direction of Sarajevo or Visoko, we were completely encircled, and

13 therefore, we tried to organise some sort of self-defence in order to

14 prevent a massacre of this population. We tried to protect them. And for

15 that purpose, we got hold of some weapons, mainly light infantry weapons,

16 a couple of rifles, a couple of improvised devices.

17 Q. How did you get hold of those weapons?

18 A. Well, some people from Ahatovici had purchased their weapons,

19 which was possible, just before things started happening. I don't know

20 where exactly they bought them, but I know weapons could be bought, up to

21 a certain time. Some of the weapons came from the Territorial Defence of

22 Visoko, but I stress again: It was only a couple of rifles.

23 Q. When you talk about improvised devices, could you tell us what you

24 mean by those.

25 A. Well, those were self-made rifles of certain profile that could

1 use hunting ammunition. Do-it-yourself rifles, basically.

2 Q. As a part of this self-organised defence, as you call it, how many

3 were you? What number of people were in this self-organised defence?

4 A. In Ahatovici, there were a hundred to 120 able-bodied men of

5 military age at the time.

6 Q. Were those only men from Ahatovici or did they come from areas as

7 well?

8 A. At the outset, those were the natives of Ahatovici, the locals,

9 people who lived there, plus maybe 20 men from other municipalities.

10 There was, for instance, a group of 12 men from Bratunac municipality who,

11 by sheer chance and in ended up in Ahatovici, while trying to escape.

12 Those were former prisoners of the bat Bratunac and Pale camps. They were

13 in extremely bad shape, mentally and physically. Some of them had broken

14 ribs. They were generally black and blue from beatings with skin covered

15 with cuts from the beatings in the camps at Pale and in Bratunac. Some of

16 them had the four S symbol carved into their skin. I think you could see

17 that on some documentaries that were made since.

18 As for people -- or rather, men from Bioca, they ended up in

19 Ahatovici while fleeing desperately from Bioca, trying to save their

20 lives.

21 Q. And I'm not sure if we've covered this, but Bioca is located in

22 which municipality? Do you know?

23 A. One part of Bioca, to be more precise, Gornja Bioca, belongs to

24 our municipality, the municipality of Novi Grad, whereas lower Bioca, or

25 Donja Bioca, belongs to Ilijas municipality. It's a place where a large

1 number of male population above 18 ended up in camps, and some of them

2 were even incinerated in the smelter, or rather, in the ironworks of

3 Ilijas.

4 Q. So protectors of your settlement came from Ahatovici, Bratunac,

5 and Bioca?

6 A. Yes. I believe there were 95 men from Ahatovici, so that number

7 includes a total of 100 to 120 men in Ahatovici, including 12 from

8 Bratunac. I cannot be more precise.

9 Q. If we could just talk about these men from Bratunac again. Did

10 you receive any information as to how these men had gotten out of

11 detention from Bratunac? And how, in fact, they made their way to your

12 settlement?

13 A. Well, from what they told us, they were captured in Bratunac and

14 they had to go through terrible things before they were imprisoned in a

15 gym-like centre, detention centre, in Pale, to be exchanged in Visoko in

16 May 1992. I had the opportunity to see some of those people on TV, and

17 some of those people later reached us, and they told us how they were

18 attacked without any provocation or reason how many men were taken away to

19 camps, and those men had to go through a Golgotha.

20 Q. Now --

21 A. And as for the second part of your question, they arrived together

22 with a group of about ten men, ten local men who had received some weapons

23 from Territorial Defence in Visoko. They received those light infantry

24 weapons from the TO in Visoko, and then through those woods that I

25 described, they managed to reach Ahatovici.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 Q. You mentioned you had seen these men who originated in Bratunac on

2 television. Could you just tell us the circumstances of seeing them on

3 television? What was the nature of the report, if that was that, that you

4 saw?

5 A. It was a report on the BH television, on the Sarajevo television,

6 about their exchange in Visoko. And it showed the condition of these

7 people. It showed the cuts on their skin, their broken arms and legs,

8 their emaciation. They showed, in particular, one man who had spent a lot

9 of time in that camp. They were undernourished, physically and mentally

10 exhausted.

11 Q. I would say that this draws us to the time immediately before the

12 attack on your settlement. In the days immediately before the attack, did

13 the people of Ahatovici see anything that might have led them to believe

14 an attack was imminent?

15 A. I saw with my own eyes, just as a lot of people from Ahatovici saw

16 it, in a report from Belgrade TV, this depiction of Ahatovici as a

17 stronghold of Green Berets, where a lot of Green Berets were just waiting

18 to mount an attack on the surrounding villages that I mentioned at the

19 beginning of my testimony.

20 Q. And to your knowledge, being there in Ahatovici at the time, was

21 that the case?

22 A. No. It was propaganda. They were probably looking for an excuse

23 before the international community for something that was going to happen

24 in Ahatovici.

25 Q. From your settlement, were you able to see any events going on in

1 the adjoining settlements that led you to believe that an attack would be

2 imminent?

3 A. Yes. I watched the attack from the Rajlovac barracks against the

4 Sokolje populated area, which had a Muslim-majority population, with my

5 own eyes, and I also watched the attack on Otes, mounted from the barracks

6 in Butile. I believe artillery weapons were used in that attack. And for

7 the most part, those attacks were mounted in the evening hours, after

8 dark. Those populated areas were also shelled from Paljevo. They were

9 targeted by Howitzers, and we could see the mosque on Sokolje.

10 Q. Would you please tell us where Sokolje is in relation to

11 Ahatovici.

12 A. It's east of Ahatovici, or south-east, roughly, in the direction

13 of the Rajlovac barracks, along the same axis as Rajlovac barracks, just a

14 bit further.

15 Q. And where is Otes?

16 A. The Otes populated area belongs to Ilidza municipality, and it is

17 located to the north -- sorry, to the south of Ahatovici.

18 Q. And where is Paljevo?

19 A. To the north of Ahatovici.

20 Q. This, I think, moves us forward in time to the attack on your

21 settlement. Could you tell us about that. Could you begin with the date

22 at which it took place.

23 A. The attack on Ahatovici, as far as I know, happened on the 25th of

24 May, 1992, and I believe this date is correct. First, without any

25 provocation or cause, infantry fire was opened on Ahatovici and continued

1 all day, until sunrise, when artillery fire started pounding incessantly

2 from the localities that I already mentioned. It was a huge number of

3 shells, between a thousand and 1.200 shells every day, of different

4 calibres. Also, some incendiary shells and some fragmentation ammunition

5 was used, which I believe are forbidden by Geneva Conventions, so that

6 many houses in Ahatovici burnt down. Even before that, electricity and

7 water supply had been cut off, so we were unable to even try to put out

8 the fire on those houses. We could just watch, helplessly.

9 Q. When you say the fire came from the localities that you've

10 mentioned, could you be more specific. What direction was fire coming

11 from?

12 A. Well, the firing came from the area around Rajlovac, or more

13 precisely, the locality of the city -- and there were tanks, mortars,

14 Howitzers, from the localities of Tjepovac, for example, Paljevo and there

15 was infantry fire or machine-gun fire also from the trenches that were

16 dug, that had been dug. And I think I said in my statement where those

17 trenches were located.

18 Q. Could I just ask you: You mentioned the word collect, and I

19 didn't hear anything after that. Could you tell us what you were talking

20 about. "The city collect ..."

21 THE INTERPRETER: Collector or reservoir, interpreter's note, but

22 the witness can explain.

23 MS. EDGERTON:

24 Q. Perhaps I can ask you in a different way. What were you talking

25 about when you said one of the places the fire was coming from was the

1 city collect?

2 A. Ah, yes. The word "collector," I meant -- I'm talking about the

3 sewage system for the city of Sarajevo, and where the sewage was collected

4 and filtered and then sent further on down the Bosna River.

5 Q. And where did that lie in relation to your settlement?

6 A. To the south-east, near the Rajlovac barracks, about one or two

7 kilometres away from the Rajlovac barracks, as the crow flies.

8 Q. So you've described what sounds to me like very intensive shelling

9 that began the day following the initial attack. How long did that go on

10 for?

11 A. Well, the attacks were continuous from the 29th of May, 1992 until

12 the 2nd of June, the fall of Ahatovici, in fact, also in 1992. So it was

13 that period. Five to six days, or however much.

14 Q. What had happened meanwhile to the people who had been -- the

15 women and children who had been turned back from their attempt at

16 evacuation?

17 A. Most of the children, the women and children and elderly, were put

18 up in a house which we considered to be, by virtue of its position, the

19 most suitable for putting up a shelter there. And that is where about 150

20 people were put up, women, children, and elderly persons.

21 Q. Did you have any close family members in that shelter?

22 A. [No interpretation] Da.

23 Q. Who was that?

24 A. Yes. I had my brother's wife, with a baby that was a year old.

25 There was my father, who, just prior to the aggression, had had an

1 operation. He was with them there. And I think there were a lot of other

2 people who ...

3 Q. Are you aware or did you receive any information of any persons

4 killed or injured as a result of this period of shelling?

5 A. I didn't have any information about that. Actually, I do remember

6 one particular case. It was a boy, a minor. He might have been 12 at the

7 time, perhaps, who was hit in the area of his stomach. And some other

8 people too who received light wounds during the shelling. But I should

9 also like to say that the Chetniks knew about the shelter and that they

10 targeted the shelter continuously too, from the locality that I did not

11 mention, but it was by the reservoir, the water reservoir, which is

12 situated south of Ahatovici, between, roughly speaking, the barracks and

13 Rajlovac.

14 Q. I'm sorry. Is the water reservoir the same as the city collector,

15 or something additional?

16 A. No. It's something else.

17 Q. Lying in approximately the same location?

18 A. The water reservoir is closer to the Ahatovici settlement, if we

19 look at the location of this city collector.

20 Q. Now, you said that the attack continued until about 2nd of June.

21 Could you tell us what happened and what happened to you on that date.

22 A. On the 2nd of June, 1992, our defence, the defence of the

23 Ahatovici settlement, could no longer resist the attacks launched by the

24 Chetniks, so that they managed to break through our defence lines at three

25 or four places, and they started entering the Ahatovici settlement,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 together with a group of about -- or several people who were members of

2 the Territorial Defence of Ahatovici. I don't want to say -- or rather,

3 we had to withdraw to the interior of Ahatovici to prevent them from

4 coming at us from behind. And we wanted to try and break through to the

5 people who were in the other part of Ahatovici.

6 During this breakthrough, we were noticed, they noticed us, and

7 they started firing at us continuously, using heavy weaponry, machine-gun

8 fire. And on that occasion when we were trying to break through towards

9 the Ranovaci area, two people were killed from that group. They were Avdo

10 Gacanovic and Saban Ibrahim [phoen].

11 Q. If I could stop you for a moment so we could go back a little bit

12 in time. You said: "They managed to break through our defence lines at

13 three or four places." I take it by that you're talking -- you're

14 referring to the aggressor forces?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you see them break through and enter the settlement?

17 A. Yes, I did, from the Dobrosevici direction, with two APCs. They

18 were moving along the road, towards the shelter where the women and

19 children and elderly were.

20 Q. Dobrosevici lies in which direction in relation to your

21 settlement?

22 A. Dobrosevici, too, is to the south-east of Ahatovici.

23 Q. And when you described that you -- your attempted breakthrough

24 towards the Ranovaci area, could you tell us which direction you're

25 heading in.

1 A. Ranovaci, yes. It's north-west of Ahatovici.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, if I just may interrupt you for one

3 second. We've heard some -- almost 15 to 20 questions about which was

4 north of what, relative geographical positions are very difficult to

5 memorise without the help of a map. It would have saved you a lot of

6 questions if you just could see it on a map, where this village is in

7 relation to another one. So it would certainly assist the Chamber to have

8 an overview map so we could more easily follow the witness.

9 The second observation I'd like to make is you used the word

10 aggressor forces and I am aware the witness used similar terms, but the

11 Chamber is more assisted by knowing who that means, Serbian or

12 paramilitary or BH force, whatever. That assists us better in making the

13 determinations we finally have to make. Please proceed.

14 MS. EDGERTON: Absolutely. Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. If we could go back, then, to your attempted breakthrough towards

16 Visoko area. Could you tell us what happened?

17 A. Well, we managed, after about an hour of crawling, suffering

18 certain casualties, or rather, the people who I said were killed on the

19 occasion, we managed to get to Ranovaci and join up with our people who

20 were in that area. At that point in time, it was a group of about 50.

21 Q. With that group of about 50, did you then take any action? What

22 then did you do?

23 A. We tried to continue breaking through to the hill of Krstac. We

24 thought that we could go over the hill, the Krstac hill and through the

25 forest and then that we might have a chance of reaching Visoko that way.

1 In the meantime, the Chetniks had taken control of the largest portion of

2 Ahatovici and the place the civilians were, where the women and children

3 were located, that too. On that occasion they used a megaphone and

4 appealed to us to surrender. They said: Balijas, surrender yourselves or

5 we'll kill your women and children.

6 Q. As a result of that, did you then do anything?

7 A. After holding brief consultations between us and that group of 50

8 people, we discussed the situation and we made some decisions. We said

9 that if we surrendered, many of us would be killed, if not all of us. So

10 what we decided was to try and break through the other way, the

11 breakthrough we had discussed previously, and that's what we managed to

12 do. While we were breaking through, we had to come out on to an open

13 space, 50 metres, dividing Krstac hill and the first nearby house, where

14 we were.

15 When we had to run across this open space, while we were doing

16 that, about 20 people were killed in a very short space of time, because

17 we were exposed to repeated shelling, cross-fire from an APC and from the

18 machine-guns. So as I say, 20 people were killed during that attempt,

19 more than 10 person are listed missing and they haven't been found to this

20 day. I myself was in the group of men who surrendered to the Chetniks.

21 Q. Can I just ask you: Do you recall the names of any of those 20

22 people who were killed?

23 A. Yes. Among those Chetniks I recognised my neighbours.

24 Q. I'm sorry. Perhaps I should repeat my question, Mr. Jahic. You

25 might not have understood me. I asked: Do you recall the names of any of

1 those 20 people who were killed?

2 A. Yes. Yes. They were all people whom I knew, my schoolmates, good

3 friends of mine. Their names -- do you want me to give you their names?

4 Q. The ones that you recall, please.

5 A. There was Samir Mujkic, Dokman Nihad, Suljic Jusuf, Divovic Hamko

6 one of the Mesanovic brothers, I don't remember his name. There were two

7 brothers and both of them were killed. They were twins, in fact, whether

8 it was Nihad or Nedzad, I'm not quite sure. Then there was Becir Zigac

9 and two other men with the same surname, Zigac. I can't remember their

10 names.

11 Q. Now --

12 A. I can't remember the other names just now.

13 Q. That's fine. Thank you. Now, as a result of seeing this that had

14 gone on before you, did you then decide to do anything?

15 A. I was in a group of people -- with a group of men. I was right at

16 the back, in the rear. So it was sort of an assignment I had to protect

17 this attempt at breakthrough, and together with my brother -- I was

18 together with my brother, but we were noticed. The Chetniks noticed us

19 and they used the megaphone to tell us to surrender. We had no other --

20 no way out, no other choice, and had to surrender.

21 Q. How was your surrender effected?

22 A. Well, we were given instructions through the megaphone to raise

23 our arms high up above our heads and to start moving towards the others,

24 the other men who had surrendered. Among them there were quite a number

25 of wounded. And we had to cross an area of about 30 metres to reach those

1 other people, with our hands raised up. We started out, started moving,

2 according to the instructions we were given, towards those men, and then

3 they opened fire at us, or rather, from our neighbour's houses, Koprivica,

4 they opened fire. And we had to throw ourselves down on the ground not to

5 be hit. And another Chetnik with a megaphone cursed our balija mothers,

6 swore at us, and ordered us to get up off the ground and to move towards

7 him. We tried to get up with our arms raised again and we tried to reach

8 the place the other prisoners were, but they started shooting at us again.

9 So once again we had to throw ourselves down onto the ground.

10 Another time -- the second time we got up, we somehow managed to

11 reach that other group. I don't know how many prisoners there were there

12 from Ahatovici exactly, but we managed to reach that group and the

13 Chetniks that had taken them prisoner, and then we were ordered to lie

14 down, face down, face towards the ground.

15 Q. Mr. Jahic, who gave you that order?

16 A. The person with the megaphone. I didn't know who he was.

17 Q. Was he wearing any kind of uniform?

18 A. All those people whom I saw and recognised, some of them were

19 wearing uniform -- either uniforms of the reserve formation of the former

20 JNA or the uniforms of the members of the air force institute at Rajlovac.

21 Q. Were the uniforms of the members of the air force institute at

22 Rajlovac different in any way from those of the reserve JNA?

23 A. Yes. They were blue trousers, or overalls, and light-blue shirts,

24 whereas the other type of uniform, the reservist JNA uniforms, were green,

25 or rather, olive-green.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 Q. Do you have any idea or could you estimate approximately how many

2 people there in uniform you saw all together?

3 A. As we were in the position we were in, we weren't able to see

4 round about. We had to lie down on the ground. I just managed to see

5 about a hundred.

6 Q. Among those 100, did you recognise anyone that you had known

7 previously?

8 A. Yes. Yes. I was able to recognise someone. Our next-door

9 neighbours, for instance.

10 Q. Could you give us their names, the names of those that you recall

11 having recognised.

12 A. I remember seeing in that group Davor and Bato Arnautovic. They

13 were brothers. I saw them clearly. Then there was Goran and Zoran

14 Zdralo, also brothers; Braco Mirkovic, Marinko Simeunovic, Pero Koprivica,

15 Dalibor Koprivica.

16 Q. Now, do you know the --

17 A. And some others, if you want me to give you some more names.

18 Q. Do you know the ethnicity of these people who you've just named?

19 A. All the people I named were Serbs.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I note the time.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Edgerton. We'll have a break. But I'd

22 first like to ask Madam Usher to escort the witness out of the courtroom.

23 [The witness stands down]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, do you think that -- this witness is

25 scheduled for three hours, as far as I remember, on the last list. I also

1 noticed that a lot of details are coming in. I mean, it would have

2 been -- if a witness says that he recognised some of his locals and

3 neighbours, would we really ask him for 60 seconds to find all the names?

4 Of course if there would be any doubt on whether this recollection is

5 correct or not, I take it that in cross-examination, then Ms. Loukas would

6 try to establish that this recognition of locals is not correct. We have

7 similar experiences this morning. Also I wondered, for example, why quite

8 many details about what happened in the defence activities, why couldn't

9 hold the lines, where they finally tried to break through, where they

10 lost -- whether there were some casualties in the group the witness was

11 in. And then finally, they couldn't escape any more and -- I don't know

12 whether that really needs 50 minutes. I mean, that's not the core of your

13 case, is it? It's not what happened exactly in these combat activities.

14 So my question is whether you think you could finish within the

15 time or from what I noticed.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I'm just advised by Mr. Hannis that in

17 the last, most recent estimate of time for this witness, he's set for four

18 hours, rather than three hours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me then just look at -- I don't know whether you

20 have any more recent one, but I've got the 29th of October, 2004, which

21 gives us an estimate of three hours. And, well, then I see the exhibits.

22 The exhibit list, by the way, is from another date. It's from the 26th of

23 October, and still mentions Prnjavor municipality rather than Novi

24 Sarajevo. I take it that's a small mistake. But if you have any more

25 recent one than the 29th, then ...

1 MS. EDGERTON: I think I'm advised on an earlier list he was

2 listed for four hours. He's since been changed to three.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, that ...

4 MS. EDGERTON: That might solve things. And I'm advised it should

5 have read four. The intention was that it should read four hours. And

6 that's my estimate of the time he would be taking, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Of course, I'm also thinking about the

8 Thursday and Friday not being available. I don't know whether we can get

9 through our witnesses. But I wonder whether -- it also struck me that on

10 some aspects, at least, that this witness was not been presented as an

11 89(F) witness which, at least in respect of some of his testimony of the

12 last one hour and a half, might have been appropriate.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour. It was in fact a call, but

14 because there were so many previous statements from the witness, I had

15 made the decision to call him viva voce, having recourse to his previous

16 statements only if there was a need to refresh his recollection.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MS. EDGERTON: And I don't anticipate with the way things are

19 going that that's going to be the case.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we'll have a break until 12.00. The Chamber

21 still hopes --

22 MS. EDGERTON: 11.00, Your Honour?

23 JUDGE ORIE: 11.00. Yes, yes. On this clock until 12.00, but

24 this clock has not yet been adapted to the wintertime. So it will be

25 until 11.00. If the Chamber could receive a map of the area, it would

1 certainly greatly assist in understanding the testimony. And if you would

2 please keep in mind that we'd like to hear everything relevant, but in a

3 way as efficient as possible.

4 MS. EDGERTON: Of course, Your Honour.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 11.15 a.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, you're on your feet.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours. I'd like to thank

9 Your Honours for the indulgence of that additional ten minutes as we had

10 to make quite some arrangements during the break as I foreshadowed to Your

11 Honours, and I also understand that additional time enabled the

12 Prosecution to get the map that you were addressing that question to

13 Ms. Edgerton about. So all in all, I think it was relatively productive.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One of the reasons why I asked for a map is

15 also because the answer of the witness on whether Stup was located --

16 where he answered that Stup was located north of Ahatovici and I felt the

17 need at that moment to check that on the map. If that answer might be in

18 any way incorrect, could you please clarify that with the witness.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Absolutely, Your Honour. What I think we'll do is

20 go through the core evidence of his testimony and then go back to the map

21 after that, if Your Honour agrees.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I don't think that would be necessary. It's

23 just for us to follow where the river Bosna is, where it comes together

24 with the ... But one specific answer might be -- might need some

25 verification.

1 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

2 courtroom.

3 So therefore, the Prosecutor is not invited to go through it

4 again, because from what we know, general knowledge of geography of -- we

5 had no other hesitations at this moment, but it's just easier to follow.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.

8 MS. EDGERTON:

9 Q. Mr. Jahic, at the moment we broke --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MS. EDGERTON:

12 Q. Mr. Jahic, at the moment we broke, we were talking about your

13 surrender to Serbs, some of whom you recognised.

14 A. I can't hear very well. Yes, it's all right.

15 Q. We were talking about your surrender to Serbs in uniform, some of

16 whom you recognised. Could you take up your story from that point and

17 tell us what then happened to you, and what I'd like you to begin with is

18 to tell us the approximate number of people you -- were who surrendered.

19 A. It was a group of ten to twelve people. I don't know exactly how

20 many.

21 Q. And what happened to you, Mr. Jahic?

22 A. When we came to the place where we were invited to come and where

23 the other detainees were, we were ordered to lie down, and then this man

24 whom I didn't know, who had a radio station, a field radio on his back, an

25 RUP radio station, was receiving instructions what to do with us. And in

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 the meantime, one of those Chetniks who had captured us, Bato Arnautovic,

2 set out to slit the throat of one man. He was holding a knife in his

3 hand. And the name of the victim was Jusuf Suljic. I wasn't able to see

4 whether he succeeded in that intention, but there was a man who was trying

5 to stop him from cutting the throat of that man. It was Braco Mirkovic.

6 Q. Mr. Jahic, did you ever see Suljic alive after this time?

7 A. No. This man Suljic was exhumed in 1996 in a mass grave in

8 Ranovaci.

9 Q. Mr. Jahic, what -- could you tell us what then happened to the

10 group of prisoners?

11 A. They ordered us to stand up and they tied us, two by two. They

12 tied our hands. Each was tied to another man's hand with barbed wire.

13 They took away all the weapons we had and emptied it of all ammunition and

14 put the weapons back on our backs and made us go. We didn't know where we

15 were going. We also had to carry wounded people. And there were two or

16 three seriously wounded men. We were ordered to take a macadam road that

17 went through the Klanac area, that went by Koprivica, towards Bojnik. And

18 all the time that we were walking, they cursed our balija mothers. They

19 called us names. They cursed the Bosnian president, Alija Izetbegovic.

20 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Jahic. If I could just interrupt you there. Did

21 you have to carry either wounded or weapons?

22 A. Yes. Both weapons and the wounded.

23 Q. At the same time as you were tied to another prisoner with barbed

24 wire?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Now, when you say "they" cursed you during your walk, who are you

2 referring to?

3 A. Those Chetniks who captured us and the people who used to be our

4 neighbours until so recently, and they even stoned us on the way.

5 Q. And where did you stop?

6 A. We stopped outside the little market in Bojnik, which was not far

7 from the Butile barracks.

8 Q. And what happened there?

9 A. Down there, we were able to see a large concentration of the

10 Chetniks outside this shop, who were probably organised to carry out the

11 torture that we were in for in Bojnik.

12 Q. Now, Mr. Jahic, when you say "large concentration of

13 Chetniks," could you describe in more detail the type of group you're

14 talking about. What did you see?

15 A. I saw uniformed men, some of which I was able to recognise because

16 I had known them before. They were armed. There was also an armoured

17 vehicle outside, an APC.

18 Q. Now, when you say these men were uniformed, could you tell us what

19 type of uniform you observed.

20 A. There were several types of uniform, starting with JNA reservist

21 uniforms and the blue uniforms of the air defence from Rajlovac, and there

22 were some men in camouflage uniforms. They had some insignia. Some had

23 the sign of the cross with the four S; some had a tricolour with JNA

24 insignia.

25 Q. And you've said now that you've recognised some of these people.

1 Could you tell us the ethnicity of those that you recognised.

2 A. All of those whom I knew were Serbs.

3 Q. Can you give us an estimate as to the size of the total group of

4 uniformed people who waited for you?

5 A. I cannot give you an exact figure, but it was a large number,

6 around a hundred men.

7 Q. Did anything then happen to you in front of this supermarket?

8 A. Yes. As we arrived outside this shop in Bojnik, they cut off the

9 wire with which we had been tied, and they ordered us to undress to our

10 underwear, to our shorts, and to lie down on the clearing outside the

11 shop, which was made of stone, and to lie down spread-eagled.

12 Q. You say you were ordered to strip down to your underwear. What

13 about your footwear? Did you still have that on?

14 A. No. We had to take everything off except our shorts.

15 Q. And what then happened to you?

16 A. A filthy kind of torture began. We were hit with rifle butts,

17 clubs, police truncheons. They hit us on the head with bottles. They

18 used their hands and feet, whatever they could lay their hands on.

19 Q. Did anything then happen to end this?

20 A. I don't know exactly how much time elapsed, how much that torture

21 lasted, an hour or maybe two, before a green military van arrived from the

22 direction of Dobrosevici or somewhere - I wasn't able to tell - and some

23 people got out of that van. They said that we were supposed to be taken

24 to Rajlovac.

25 Q. And how did you get taken to Rajlovac?

1 A. We were taken there by bus. But to make you see more clearly what

2 happened in Bojnik, do you want me to give you the names of the people I

3 knew? Because there were among them some former schoolmates of mine who

4 tortured me and beat me.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, if you would have a map meanwhile, then

6 it might be a good idea already to ask the witness whether that covers the

7 area he's talking about, so that we can more easily follow. But if you

8 have not yet, then we'll have to wait.

9 MS. EDGERTON: If I could have your indulgence for just a moment,

10 please, Your Honour.

11 [Prosecution counsel confer]

12 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, the map sits behind me, but at this

13 moment it's not yet mounted on anything to be able to --

14 JUDGE ORIE: You have a big map, not -- you haven't --

15 MS. EDGERTON: It's a large map, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I better do understand that ...

17 If we could mount it on something.

18 MS. EDGERTON: And meanwhile, Your Honour, the witness's question

19 was whether I'd like to receive the names of those people who were

20 participating in the torture of them, of the prisoners.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, it's -- it's finally it's a matter for

22 you, but of course you know that we have certain lists sometimes of names

23 that are to be proven at some other moments. It's not that relevant. So

24 I leave it entirely up to you.

25 Now you have got a problem that you can't see the map any more,

1 Ms. -- but perhaps we could for the cameras, we'll be able to solve that

2 problem. Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

3 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.

4 Q. Mr. Jahic, if you can today recall the names of some of the people

5 who you recognised who participated in this torture at Bojnik, could you

6 please give those to us.

7 A. Out of that group, I recognised Damjanovic brothers, Goran, Zoran,

8 and Vedran; Relja Dino; the son of Spasoje Sipanovic, whose name eludes me

9 for the moment. Vera Hrkanovic. She was especially heavy-handed with us

10 prisoners. And there was also her husband, Dragan, whose surname I can't

11 recall now. And when I say Vera Hrkanovic, that's her maiden name,

12 Hrkanovic.

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jahic. Now, you said you were taken from Bojnik to

14 Rajlovac by bus.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was this the same bus that drove up before the supermarket?

17 A. Yes, it was the same bus.

18 Q. Were there any guards on this bus?

19 A. I don't know exactly how many guards there were. Maybe three to

20 four, plus driver. Then we had to get up off that clearing, that plateau.

21 And it was very hard to get up, because we were physically in very bad

22 shape. And before that, the Chetniks who were there made a gauntlet for

23 us to run through, some 20 metres long, 10 men on each side, and we, the

24 detainees, had to run that gauntlet. And as we did so, we were hit again

25 and again with rifles, wooden clubs, iron bars; we were slapped, kicked,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 hit with other objects.

2 Q. Now, the bus ride to Rajlovac from Butile, I wonder if you could

3 have a look --

4 A. From Bojnik to Rajlovac, you mean.

5 Q. Correct. I wonder if you could have a look at the map that's been

6 produced to you and take a few moments and tell us if the map that you see

7 before you displays the two locations we're talking about.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right. Thank you.

10 A. Do you want me to point? Here it is. That happened here. That's

11 the little supermarket. And then we were taken by this road, passing

12 through Mihajlevici, Belugovici, Reljevo, and then on to Rajlovac.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I wonder if at this point I could ask

14 the witness with, I think, the blue pen he has in front of him, to mark

15 that route on the map.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Are you going to use -- you want to tender this -- is

17 it a plastified map?

18 MS. EDGERTON: It is, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Marking on plastic is certainly possible. The

20 problem, however, is that even on the screen, it's relatively small. You

21 took a large map for a relatively small area. Wouldn't it be -- well, I'm

22 just asking myself whether it would not be easier to have approximately 20

23 per cent of that map photocopied and then ask the witness to do that.

24 Because otherwise we have a huge map which then should also be reproduced

25 in similar size, which is, apart from that it takes a lot of time, it's

1 also very expensive, especially if it's in colour. And it was just for

2 our orientation. So I wonder whether not a more practical solution could

3 be found. But of course ...

4 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, after the break, I think we'll be able

5 to work better on that.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And marking as such. I mean, if you see on a

7 map where Rajlovac is, and if you can follow what the witness says and if

8 you just summarise that for the transcript, then the Judges are usually

9 able to find their way on the maps. Because I'm afraid now that when I

10 asked for a simple solution, the solution is more complex than the problem

11 ever was. So please proceed, but I'd rather be hesitant to ask the

12 witness to mark this map.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Fine, Your Honour. Thank you.

14 Q. So during this trip to Rajlovac by bus, you've said you were under

15 guard. There were guards on the bus, approximately three or four. Could

16 you tell us if they were in uniform.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What kind of uniform were they wearing?

19 A. Blue trousers, light-blue shirts.

20 Q. Did you recognise any of the guards; and if so, can you comment on

21 their ethnicity?

22 A. Later during my stay at the camp, I saw that man for the first

23 time, and I continued to see him regularly throughout the time I was at

24 the camp. He called himself and other people knew him as Sok. That was

25 his nickname.

1 Q. Are you aware of his ethnicity?

2 A. He was Serb, but he used a certain amount of Albanian words to try

3 to conceal his identity. He behaved toward us detainees in an especially

4 beastly way. He was very heavy-handed.

5 Q. We can talk about that shortly, but for this moment, I'd like you

6 to describe your final stop at Rajlovac and what happened upon your

7 arrival there.

8 A. As we were entering the bus, we had to sit down between the seats

9 and put our heads between our knees. Sok made us sing Chetnik songs,

10 starting the tune, which we had to take up and repeat, while two guards

11 walked up and down the bus and hit us with police truncheons. And that

12 went on all the way to Rajlovac. We were also stopped once near Reljevo,

13 at the bridge, where a group of people were waiting for us, wanting to

14 kill us. I don't know how long the argument lasted between the guards on

15 our bus and those people, but in the end they didn't have their way and we

16 went on.

17 As we arrived at Rajlovac - we were between 10 and 15 - we were

18 ordered to get off the bus in groups of five, to lie down outside the bus,

19 again spread-eagled. And in Rajlovac we were met by people who were

20 something like a "welcome party," arranged for us, very well prepared and

21 experienced in the torture of detainees.

22 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Jahic. Could I just stop you there. And I'd like

23 to produce to you a photograph bearing the number 00520200-11.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P367.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, I noticed that on the description of

1 the exhibit on the list, you already included part of I take it the

2 testimony you expect, which is comment rather than a description of the --

3 the description should be limited to what appears and could be directly

4 taken from the photograph. But in your description, especially the second

5 part, is not something we could immediately see at this photograph.

6 MS. EDGERTON: I see, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, when we describe this exhibit, I'd

8 like you to leave out the second part. I'd rather make a new description,

9 saying that this is a photograph showing old iron and a cistern. Because

10 whether the grid is correct, whether anyone was detained there is not

11 something that appears on the photograph.

12 Please proceed.

13 MS. EDGERTON:

14 Q. Mr. Jahic, you have the photograph before you.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you recognise what you see in the photograph?

17 A. Yes. They are two hangars made of iron, metal, and that's where

18 we were incarcerated. We spent from the 2nd of June, 1992, to the 14th of

19 June, 1992 there.

20 Q. So, Mr. Jahic, if I could just containing you back to the point in

21 the story that you were telling us. Does this photograph depict the

22 location you were brought to at Rajlovac?

23 A. Yes, absolutely correct.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that, and in

25 relation to the introduction of photographs, I would suggest that it's

1 better to ask the witness what the photograph depicts as opposed to

2 indicating to the witness and asking for an affirmative answer. I just

3 put that as a marker for the introduction of further --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, of course, if we ask the

5 witness, then he'll start describing that as a hill in the photograph,

6 that there's some old iron on it and -- so I would not say that, under

7 these circumstances, it's not admissible. But I saw it this not as an

8 objection, as a marker, but if you could always ask the witness, to the

9 extent possible -- for example, by asking him whether he recognises this

10 as a place he knows. And if he would then -- but that it is a place on

11 the photograph, that doesn't need any further description by the witness.

12 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

14 Q. Now, you've said that you were taken off the buses five at a time.

15 Could you tell us from that point what you observed and what happened to

16 you.

17 A. We weren't able to see much because it was getting towards evening

18 and dark. It was dusk. And five people, as they went out one by one, or

19 five by five, they had to lie down in front of the bus, which was parked

20 nearby the hangars, at a distance of about some 30 to 40 metres from the

21 hangars. And in that "welcoming committee" or "welcoming party," the new

22 torture or mistreatment being prepared for us -- I don't know how many

23 Chetniks there were, but three of the people present were given the task

24 of using their army boots to jump on our heads and legs, and our backs.

25 And another two used metal rods to beat us with while we were lying down,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 face down. They beat us on our heads, across our backs, and on all parts

2 of our bodies. Then one of them, one man from this group, would beat us

3 on our soles, the soles of our feet, with a police truncheon, which was

4 very painful indeed. And at one point, they brought in trained dogs, army

5 dogs, and issued orders, gave them the command to bite us, which the dogs

6 mostly did.

7 Then one of the men present brought a fuel canister of some kind

8 and they started soaking us with the fuel and intended to set fire to us.

9 They asked us to admit to some nonsensical things, how many Mujahedins

10 there were, how much Alija was paying us, and mindless things like that.

11 And then they would continue torturing us.

12 At one point they used a dredger and a caterpillar vehicle and

13 wanted to run us over using those vehicles. But they didn't do that. I

14 don't know how long this all went on for, an hour or two, perhaps more,

15 this torture, and then we had to get up again and run the gauntlet of

16 Chetniks, as I've already described. I described what this gauntlet

17 looked like, ten or so people on one -- on either side, and we were beaten

18 as we went through the gauntlet, with the instruments that I've already

19 mentioned. We were told to run to the small hangar that you can see on

20 this photograph.

21 Q. Can I just, Mr. Jahic, now take you back again to describe this,

22 as you put it, "welcoming committee." Did these people have any uniform

23 on?

24 A. Yes, they did have some sort of uniform. They were either

25 camouflage uniforms or the blue uniforms that I described earlier on.

1 Q. Now, this small hangar that you've mentioned, could you describe

2 the hangar to us.

3 A. Well, it was of tin construction and it was used as a storehouse

4 for different types of fuel with a top to it, after the fuel had been

5 poured in. But this time the hangar had cut into it an entrance, two by

6 two, for example, two by two metres. It had a door made of some iron

7 netting. It was metal, anyway. And it was about ten metres in diameter.

8 It was a steel construction. In my opinion, a hangar of this kind was

9 re-adapted -- was adapted to serve as a prison camp where people could be

10 incarcerated, where you could hold prisoners, because they had already

11 prepared and staged everything, set the scene for the events that were to

12 come.

13 Q. At this point, Mr. Jahic, I'd like to produce to you another

14 document bearing the number RR045396.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P368.

16 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, before we leave that particular

17 photograph --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Loukas.

19 MS. LOUKAS: -- I think it would be important to -- if it could be

20 indicated when the photograph was taken.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, do you have any information about

22 the ...

23 MS. EDGERTON: I do, Your Honour. The witness isn't aware of when

24 the photograph was taken.

25 JUDGE ORIE: But I think Ms. Loukas would like to know. So if you

1 could provide that information to her, either now or -- I don't know

2 whether there's any reason to do it in the absence of the witness, but ...

3 MS. EDGERTON: No, I don't think there is. It was taken in 1997,

4 Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 MS. EDGERTON: If I may, Your Honour, just before, then, we leave

8 this first picture, if I could direct the witness to have a look at this

9 first picture again, 00520200-11.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Usher, could you please assist.

11 MS. EDGERTON:

12 Q. Mr. Jahic, does this picture look to you as it did at the time you

13 were at this location?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat.

15 A. Well, the hangars are as they were, but otherwise none of this was

16 there while we were there. So the answer is no. There are a lot of these

17 vehicles about here. And that's not what it was like from the 2nd to the

18 14th of June.

19 MS. EDGERTON:

20 Q. But the hangars appear to you as they were in 1992?

21 A. Certainly, yes.

22 Q. Thank you. If we could go now to the second picture.

23 Mr. Jahic, do you recognise anything in the second picture?

24 A. [No interpretation] Da.

25 Q. Could you tell us what you recognise?

1 A. This is the small hangar, and my photograph. I was there when the

2 photograph was taken, and I'm indicating the inside of the small silo, or

3 rather, small hangar where I was detained.

4 Q. So you recognise the individual in that photo as yourself?

5 A. [No interpretation] Da.

6 Q. Could you tell us when, to the best of your recollection, that

7 photo was taken.

8 A. Well, I don't know whether it was at the end of 1996 or the

9 beginning of 1997, but anyway, after the reintegration with the others,

10 when we joined up with the people who came to get me. And we went down

11 and took these photographs.

12 Q. In this photograph, I see you're at an entrance to what appears to

13 be the small hangar.

14 A. Yes. Yes. That's it. That's the small hangar.

15 Q. There's a gate on either side of the entrance; is that correct?

16 A. Yes. That's the door or gate that I mentioned a moment ago, and

17 that's what it looked like while we were kept in the hangar. They're made

18 up of this metal grid.

19 Q. All right. Thank you. If we could go on, then.

20 When you ran the gauntlet into the hangar, could you tell us what

21 you saw once you got inside.

22 A. As it was night-time, I wasn't able to see anything. The hangar

23 is dark anyway inside, because there's no light coming into it. It's

24 closed off. But we were ordered to run. And when I ran through the

25 entrance gates, I fell across the other detainees who had been brought to

1 the hangar earlier on.

2 Q. At a certain point, then, were you able to see approximately how

3 many detainees were inside this hangar with you?

4 A. Not at night. But at dawn, visibility was better, and then I

5 could see.

6 Q. Did you recognise them?

7 A. Yes. They were all people from Ahatovici, people who had been

8 taken prisoner in Ahatovici.

9 Q. Did any of them come from any other settlements or areas outside

10 of Ahatovici?

11 A. Well, there were some ten people whom I mentioned at the beginning

12 of my statement from Bioca, and a couple of them from Bratunac.

13 Q. Now, Mr. Jahic, you've said that you've stayed in that cistern

14 until approximately 14 June. Could you tell us about some of the

15 conditions inside that cistern. For example, how were you fed during your

16 period of time in there?

17 A. Well, the conditions were, as they were in most camps in

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, held by the Chetniks. For the first five days, or

19 first three or four days, actually, as far as I remember, we weren't given

20 anything to eat at all. And then -- there were about a hundred of us in

21 the hangar, and they threw in three loaves of stale bread. They were as

22 hard as stone and had gone all green with mould. And this was generally

23 repeated throughout my stay at the Rajlovac camp. The same thing happened

24 again. We were given water regularly, but they didn't let us leave the

25 hangar at all, go outside. Only when they tortured us and beat us up and

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 interrogated us. The conditions were extremely bad. It was very dirty.

2 We had to urinate inside the hangar, using a bucket. And they didn't even

3 let us empty the bucket. But when they were in a good mood -- except when

4 they were in a good mood. So the stench was terrible. And throughout the

5 time I spent in the hangar, I didn't need to defecate at all, because we

6 weren't given any food to eat except for that mouldy bread, stale bread,

7 with the clear intention of having the 100 of us fight over these three

8 loaves of bread that they would throw to the dogs, as it were.

9 Q. Mr. Jahic --

10 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry. Before Ms. Edgerton proceeds.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I wonder, in relation to that last

13 answer, it commences with: "Well, the conditions were as they were in

14 most camps in Bosnia-Herzegovina held by the Chetniks."

15 It's not actually an answer to the question that Ms. Edgerton

16 asked, and, Your Honour, I would submit it might be appropriate for

17 Your Honours to indicate to the witness that it is appropriate for him to

18 answer the question rather than to editorialise in the way that he did at

19 the commencement of that answer.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, I think we have to understand that

21 there might be some emotion involved.

22 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, I do, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: We do not know exactly what the source of that part

24 of the testimony is. But if it's not substantiated to the effect that the

25 witness saw them all, then of course the Chamber will not understand this

1 part of the testimony to be anything else than just repeating what the

2 witness may have heard or read or whatever.

3 But, Mr. Jahic, Ms. Loukas is asking me to request you to, to the

4 extent possible - and we do understand, of course, the circumstances under

5 which you're testifying - but to concentrate mainly on your own

6 experience. So when you compared the situation in your hangar with what

7 happened elsewhere, we take it that you have no direct knowledge of how it

8 was elsewhere and you may have some reasons to believe that elsewhere it

9 wasn't any better. But we are very much interested to hear specifically

10 what you experienced yourself, because that's the thing --

11 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

12 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't hear that last part of your answer. Could

13 you --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The answer is that I was able to see

15 through the information media, Batkovic camp, Trnopolje camp, and if they

16 weren't identical to our camp, they were very similar to each other. So

17 that would be my answer.

18 JUDGE ORIE: So -- well, what I was mainly asking your attention

19 for is to mainly concentrate on what you saw yourself, and of course I do

20 understand that you might have compared your situation with what you have

21 seen on the media. But that's, of course, not what you've personally

22 experienced.

23 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

24 MS. EDGERTON:

25 Q. Mr. Jahic --

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Ms. Edgerton.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Sorry.

3 Q. You said earlier, after your surrender you were ordered to strip

4 to your underwear. Did you ever during your detention receive your

5 clothing or your shoes again?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When did you -- at what point did you receive your clothing and

8 shoes?

9 A. Perhaps I omitted to say that all our valuables, any valuables we

10 had on us, items of jewellery, gold jewellery, watches, money, was

11 confiscated, either in Bojnik or Rajlovac. They searched us. So they

12 didn't give us our shoes back. We did get our clothing back after five to

13 six days after we were in Rajlovac.

14 Q. During your detention in Rajlovac, Mr. Jahic, were you ever

15 interrogated?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. By whom, then, and where did this take place?

18 A. Well, the interrogation -- I was interrogated. Most of the other

19 detainees were interrogated by Sok, with the assistance of two or three

20 others, his assistants, Chetniks, who beat us.

21 Q. Were you abused during your interrogations?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In what way?

24 A. Well, the whole time they got this -- these admissions from us by

25 force, where the HOS were, where the Mujahedin were, how much we were

1 being paid, where we were doing battle, and other nonsensical things like

2 that. They made us say it and admit to things like that.

3 Q. Mr. Jahic --

4 A. And along with that interrogation, while the interrogation was

5 going on, we were beaten. We were beaten up.

6 Q. Mr. Jahic, did you also see any abuse of other prisoners in the

7 same way?

8 A. Yes. All the detainees in the small hangar camp were exposed to

9 that kind of torture.

10 Q. Could you describe to us what you saw.

11 A. Well, I saw on several occasions people being taken out. They

12 took a man away. He was the father of a schoolmate of mine. And he was

13 beastily beaten up on two occasions and died as a result in the small

14 hangar camp, as a consequence of the beatings.

15 Q. Did you see that?

16 A. Yes. The name of that late individual was Mr. Hajro Delic. He

17 was taken out twice. They came with an olive-green vehicle, a heavy-duty

18 vehicle, with a pinzgauer, and took him away. And sometimes he'd be away

19 the whole night. The second time he'd be aware for a shorter period of

20 time. But when he returned to the camp, to the small hangar, and when

21 they saw the state he was in, they just threw some sort of couch inside,

22 and he was all black and blue. His ribs had been broken, his kidneys had

23 probably been damaged, and his other internal organs. And Hajro Delic

24 succumbed to his injuries and died, before our very eyes. All of us who

25 were in the small hangar saw that.

1 Q. Were there any other instances where you saw similar abuse of the

2 detainees?

3 A. Well, Hajro Delic's case was not the only one. They also killed

4 Enver Celik, for example. He also succumbed to that torture that he was

5 subjected to, inhumane torture. And then all of us were tormented and

6 mistreated. We were forced to go hungry. They even threw in some noxious

7 matter into the hangar, poisonous gases and things like that.

8 Q. During the period of your detention, Mr. Jahic, were there any

9 examples of detainees being removed, never to be returned?

10 A. There was a group -- there were people from Bioca. There were

11 perhaps six or seven of them, that group. And then another group of the

12 same number from Bratunac, for example. They were taken off in an unknown

13 direction, and later on we learnt that some of those people had been

14 killed. And also, in the period between the 9th and 14th of June, they

15 took out nine people from Ahatovici, and we also later learnt that they

16 were killed at Ilidza, where they were buried in the Vlahovo cemetery.

17 And that was another case. If you want me to give you the names.

18 Q. If you remember the names of some of those people from Ahatovici.

19 A. It was three members of the same Brajlovic family, Edin, Zijad,

20 and another one, and Rusmir Pasic, Kadrija Ramadani, Dzemo Efendic.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jahic. Now, you've mentioned before I interjected

22 an incident where some kind of noxious substance was thrown into the

23 hangar. Can you tell us about that.

24 A. I don't know which day of our stay at the camp it was, but one day

25 there came a Chetnik whom I personally didn't know, but some of my fellow

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 inmates recognised him. And he brought some sort of device, like a

2 bottle, and through the netted fence, he threw in this poison inside, with

3 the words "breathe in, balijas. It's not a real bomb. Fuck your

4 mothers."

5 And what happened later is that those of us inside found ourselves

6 in very stifling air. Our small blood vessels started bursting. We had a

7 feeling that our lungs would implode. And we tried to breathe in more

8 air, which had a completely different effect, because the air was already

9 full of that substance. And we thought we were suffocating.

10 Q. Mr. Jahic, you've said that one of the other detainees recognised

11 this individual. Who was it that recognised this individual?

12 A. It was a friend of mine, a very close friend of mine and a former

13 neighbour. He was a member of the reserve police force. And he

14 recognised the said Chetnik as a former chauffeur and bodyguard for

15 Krajisnik and Jovo Tintor. That Chetnik had arrived in an Audi.

16 Q. What is your friend's name?

17 A. My friend's name is Armin Mujkic, late Armin Mujkic, I must say.

18 He was killed in the bus massacre.

19 Q. During your period of detention, were you ever asked to appear on

20 camera?

21 A. Yes, I was. There was one occasion when this SRNA television from

22 Pale arrived, and they took us out of the camp in groups of five or six

23 detainees. They selected people who still looked normal, who were not

24 disfigured by the beatings, and I was among these men. We received a

25 piece of paper with a text that we were supposed to reproduce before the

1 TV cameras. And this Chetnik nicknamed Sok told us all, before the

2 filming, in so many words: Those of you who screw up will be killed.

3 Q. Let's move forward in time now to the 13th of June. What happened

4 to you on that day?

5 A. On the 13th of June, around 10.00 a.m., two refrigerator trucks

6 belonging to UPI company from Rajlovac and the TP market, and parked

7 outside the hangars, the small and the big one, and then the guards told

8 us we were going to be transported to an exchange location. We had to

9 board these refrigerator trucks. I don't know how we were divided, but I

10 know that at that stage we were 56 in total. I don't know whether we were

11 evenly distributed between the two hangars, 28 and 28. In any case, we

12 were ordered to get onto the refrigerator trucks, and when we did, they

13 closed the door behind us.

14 Q. Before you go further, could I just ask you one question. I note

15 the number of detainees by this point in time had dropped from 100 to 56.

16 Do you have any idea as to the reasons for that?

17 A. The number dropped because, as I said, some of them had been

18 killed at Ilidza, some had been killed in other locations. Yet another

19 part had been transferred to the large hangar for some reason. So that

20 from 100, the number dropped to around 56.

21 Q. Now, after they closed the door behind you in these refrigerated

22 trucks, what then happened?

23 A. When they drove us away, and at the time we didn't know where we

24 were going, although we could look through a sliver-shaped opening for

25 ventilation. We didn't have much air inside the truck, because the area

1 inside was no bigger than 6 to 8 square metres, and there were too many of

2 us inside. We didn't have enough air. Those of us who were younger and

3 stronger could somehow stand it, but the older people who had previously

4 been badly beaten took it very hard and moaned from pain throughout the

5 trip. When the temperature rose to such a degree that it became

6 insufferable, they would turn on the cooling, or rather, the freezing. So

7 we had these temperature variations that were very ugly indeed. But we

8 were able to follow through that slit where we were going, and we could

9 see that first we arrived to the Vogosca hub, then to Semizovac, and then

10 we continued along a by-road, a macadam road, and we only later learned

11 that it was the road leading to Pale. The driver intentionally stepped

12 hard on the gas so that the people with bad injuries literally moaned and

13 cried from pain.

14 Q. If I could just for a moment, Your Honour. I note the time.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Edgerton. Yes.

16 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the

17 courtroom.

18 [The witness stands down]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Again, Ms. Edgerton, whether the itinerary of

20 what the Chamber expects to be not the vital part of the -- whether that's

21 really necessary. If you could perhaps take a bit more the lead, which is

22 not the same as leading the witness. Then I have another issue I just

23 briefly wanted to raise, is -- and perhaps we should go into private

24 session for one second.

25 [Private session]

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into

18 the courtroom.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, if I just may address the Trial

20 Chamber before the witness comes into court.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.

22 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, with this witness, we still have to

23 get to the core of his testimony. Following that, it's my intention to

24 put a small number of intercept communications to him, perhaps three

25 documents, and four video clips. Looking at the time and looking at the

1 witness's overall condition at this point, I wanted to put the Trial

2 Chamber on notice that what I would try and do is speed him up as much as

3 possible to get to the core of his testimony, and then I would propose to

4 play the video. Now, because the video is -- it's rather gruesome,

5 frankly, Your Honour, and because, based on my long acquaintance with the

6 witness, I see he appears to be rather drained now at this point of the

7 day, I would ask the Trial Chamber if we could break after the video is

8 played, until tomorrow morning, and then I would propose to play the

9 intercepts first thing in the morning tomorrow in the most expeditious

10 fashion possible.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we could do that, although we briefly discussed

12 it, the testimony of this witness, during the last break, Ms. Edgerton,

13 and the Chamber had the impression that if this witness was scheduled on

14 Friday for the last two and a half hours until the weekend, that we might

15 have had the whole of his testimony in a shorter period of time. There

16 were a lot of details which, for example -- but we'll see how it develops.

17 But at this moment, there's certainly not a negative reaction to your

18 suggestion, mainly on the basis of the condition of the witness.

19 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I can indicate that -- nor do I have any

20 objection to that course. It seems appropriate in the circumstances. And

21 I would add, in any event, due to the situation that we don't have

22 Ms. Cmeric here today and our inability to conduct the conferences as

23 expeditiously as possible, we would not have been in a position to

24 cross-examine at the end of the witness's evidence today in any event.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you have any impression on how much time the

1 cross-examination of this witness would take, approximately, knowing what

2 still -- what there's still to be expected?

3 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, of course, this week we have two

4 witnesses who are scheduled. I must say from my perspective, Your Honour,

5 I see no problem in our being able to deal with both witnesses well within

6 time.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Madam Usher, would you escort the witness

8 into the courtroom.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

11 MS. EDGERTON:

12 Q. Now, Mr. Jahic, before the break, where we left off, you were

13 telling us that you understood you were -- you found you were being taken

14 in the refrigerated trucks on the road to Pale. Could you tell us where

15 you stopped, just the name of the location.

16 A. We stopped first at Pale, but only for a minute or two, before

17 going on to Sokolac, where we stopped for about ten minutes, and then they

18 brought us back to Pale.

19 Q. And is it correct, Mr. Jahic, that following your return through

20 Pale, you were then brought back to Rajlovac barracks?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Once at Rajlovac barracks, were you taken to the same place you

23 had been detained or some other location?

24 A. We were taken back to the small hangar, or rather, we were brought

25 back to the larger hangar, where there were some men, other men,

1 detainees. But we were ordered to go to the large hangar with them.

2 Q. Was the large hangar empty at the time you arrived in it? Were

3 there any other detainees there?

4 A. It was empty when we returned from Pale. The large hangar was

5 empty. There were no people inside. But they had poured water for us in

6 the hangar. There were about 300 litres of water in the hangar, and the

7 hangar itself was dug in somehow; the floor was a depression, so that

8 water could be -- could stay there.

9 Q. Is it correct, then, that you spent the night in that hangar but

10 were removed later the next day?

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. There were -- the

12 water was 30 centimetres deep on the ground of the hangar.

13 A. We were brought there around 7.00 and we stayed there until the

14 next day, around 7.00, so we were there for about 24 hours.

15 MS. EDGERTON:

16 Q. And the next day, were you taken to -- taken out of the hangar and

17 taken to a bus?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What kind of bus?

20 A. It was, I believe, a bus that belonged to the Gras company from

21 Sarajevo, a regular bus, red.

22 Q. Did you and the remaining detainees have to run another gauntlet

23 to board that bus?

24 A. Yes. We had to run the gauntlet again with our arms raised, and

25 again we were hit on the way to the bus with all sorts of objects.

1 Q. Did you recognise any person from what you understood to be the

2 camp authorities there?

3 A. Yes. I saw this Chetnik nicknamed Sok. I saw Mile Stojanovic,

4 who was a military man. I don't know of which rank exactly, but he

5 commanded over that barracks, or at least he held a high position there.

6 Q. Had you seen this person you call Mile Stojanovic prior to

7 boarding the bus?

8 A. Yes. I saw him up to ten times during the time I stayed at the

9 camp.

10 Q. How was he usually dressed when you saw him? Was he in uniform or

11 civilian clothes?

12 A. He was in uniform. Usually the blue fatigues worn by the air

13 defence and air force men. I believe he had a Scorpio pistol as a

14 side-arm. He held a rank, but I don't know which rank.

15 Q. Now, Mr. Jahic, once you and the other detainees boarded the bus,

16 were you under guard? Were there any guards on the bus with you?

17 A. Yes. There were some three to four guards, plus the bus driver.

18 I want to add that when we set off, an escort made up of four vehicles

19 followed the bus.

20 Q. What kind of escort was that?

21 A. Armed men. As for vehicles, there was one green all-terrain

22 vehicle called pinzgauer. Then there were two vehicles probably from the

23 automobile factory in Vogosca. I think so because there were two

24 completely new, brand new cars, one Zastava 101, and another car, also

25 new, from the same factory.

1 Q. Now, what was your position in the bus? Where were you sitting or

2 standing?

3 A. We were just cursed and told to go to the back of the bus. So we

4 stood the greatest part of the trip, up to the Vogosca and

5 Skapetla [phoen], the Vogosca hub, when we were ordered --

6 Q. Mr. Jahic, were you in the front, the middle, or the rear of the

7 bus?

8 A. I was in the back of the bus, right next to the back windscreen,

9 so I could see where we were going and I could see this escort, the VW

10 Golfs and the Zastava vehicle.

11 Q. Could you tell us what happened after you left the Vogosca

12 junction.

13 A. Before they ordered us to lie down at Vogosca and Skapetla, I saw

14 this car that was following us and the armed man in the car who wore this

15 blue shirt, long, curly hair, and a cap turned sideways. And since he

16 noticed that I was watching him, he motioned me to turn away, motioning

17 that he would kill me otherwise. And so I obeyed.

18 We were packed like sardines, practically lying on top of each

19 other.

20 Q. And after you left --

21 A. And we were enough to fill two buses.

22 Q. Mr. Jahic, what happened, then, after you were asked at the

23 Vogosca junction to put your heads down?

24 A. They kept driving us, for I don't know how long, stopping

25 occasionally at an intersection, and on those occasions, the driver would

1 receive some instructions, or maybe consulted with somebody, and then we

2 would go on. And we were driven on that bus, packed as we were, which was

3 very painful, because there was not a millimetre free space even to move

4 your head, and anybody who would move would immediately be struck down by

5 a rifle but the or a truncheon or a club. Because there were these armed,

6 uniformed Chetniks guarding us on the bus.

7 And after about an hour of this drive, the bus stopped and they

8 said it was because the engine had started to boil.

9 Q. Let me just stop you for a moment there and ask you: Do you have

10 any idea what road you had taken during this hour's worth of drive and

11 where you were at this time?

12 A. I think we were moving along the road from Sarajevo towards Olovo,

13 and that stop that we made could have been at the intersection of the road

14 to Ilijas and Semizovac.

15 Q. What happened after they said the engine had boiled?

16 A. We were given orders not to move. They opened the front door and

17 the escorts got out, as well as the bus driver. And one or two minutes

18 later - I'm not sure exactly how much time went by - we could hear a very

19 loud explosion. So that I couldn't hear for some time after that. And

20 then there was one explosion, and a second one, and a third one, one after

21 the other, and they were projectiles from hand held rocket launchers,

22 whether Zoljas or some other type; I really can't say. When those three

23 projectiles were fired, through the shattered windows, they started

24 throwing in hand grenades, maybe ten hand grenades, along with firing from

25 infantry weapons. I didn't have any idea how long this went on for and

1 whether I was alive or dead, because there were explosions on all sides

2 and I couldn't really make out whether they were shrapnels, bullets, body

3 parts or whatever was flying around.

4 At one point when I happened to raise my head up a bit, I saw a

5 terrible sight all around me. I saw my friends with shattered heads,

6 dismembered. There was blood all over me. There were parts of skulls,

7 hair, all over me. And at that moment, I felt a terrible pain in my back.

8 And since the shooting was still going on, I realised that I had been hit

9 myself, and I saw several more hand grenades, or bombs, falling right next

10 to me, in close proximity, and exploding underneath the body of some

11 person, and the body was shattered. But it was so close to me, a metre

12 and a half at the most away from me, that it was a terrible sight. You

13 could hear screaming and moaning on the part of the people, you could

14 smell the smell of burning, the smell of blood, gunpowder.

15 Q. Mr. Jahic, are you aware of or did you see anything happen to the

16 people who had been guarding you on the bus, the guards from your bus, or

17 the escort vehicles? And to your knowledge, were they shot or damaged in

18 any way?

19 A. Absolutely nothing happened to those people. They were our

20 hangmen. They were our executors. They shot at us. Chetniks and the

21 Chetnik hordes conducting a massacre over unarmed people in that way.

22 Q. Mr. Jahic, while you were still on the bus, do you have any

23 recollection of seeing or hearing any vehicles pass by?

24 A. When the bus stopped at the place of the massacre, the site, when

25 it stopped, we could hear two vehicles passing by on the right-hand side

1 of the bus, to the right of the bus. And since the bus had stopped on the

2 left-hand side of the road, the vehicles had to pass the bus, bypass it,

3 on the right. And all this took place in the space of several minutes.

4 The guards going out, the driver leaving the bus, the people who had

5 guarded us, and the moment when these two vehicles passed by, vehicles

6 that had been behind the bus to begin with.

7 Q. Mr. Jahic, were the vehicles you're talking about, were those part

8 of the escort, the motorised escort you had?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. After the shooting had ended, were you then able to leave the bus

11 somehow?

12 A. I don't know how much time afterwards and how long it all went on

13 for, because I lost all sense of time. I didn't know what to do, where I

14 was, whether all that was actually happening to me, because the -- it was

15 a terrible sight to behold. People with their heads blown off, they were

16 close friends of mine; they were relatives and friends. But anyway, I

17 managed somehow. When I was wounded, my legs had gone numb, but I managed

18 somehow to pull myself out of there, with the help of my hands and arms.

19 I was at the back of the bus, as I've already said, underneath the window

20 frame and the handrails, and I managed to move through and move out and

21 throw myself out of the bus, not to have to look at that terrible scene

22 any more.

23 When I tried to do that, as my legs were numb and I couldn't move

24 them, I got wedged between the handrail and the window frame. I was

25 stuck. And I was in limbo there for about ten minutes, stuck, until I

1 mustered up the energy to catch hold of something, of the window frame,

2 with my right hand and push with my left hand and tried to get my legs

3 freed, and I somehow succeeded and fell out of the bus onto the road. And

4 I hurt myself even worse doing that. And the pain and bleeding became

5 much worse.

6 Q. Mr. Jahic, after you left the bus, were you somehow able to pull

7 yourself to the side of the road?

8 A. I wanted to get as far away from that place as possible, so I

9 crawled backwards. I couldn't go forwards. I couldn't turn myself

10 around, so I crawled and came to a nearby brook or stream, and I sat there

11 thinking what had just happened. I thought I was going to die from the

12 wounds that I had sustained. And I tried to kill myself, to put an end to

13 my suffering and pain. I pulled out of my trousers a leather belt that I

14 had. I put it round my head like this. I wound the other end around my

15 right hand and I tried to strangle myself. But the whole thing bust and I

16 fell into the stream. I crawled to the stream. The water was about half

17 a metre high. I emerged [as interpreted] my head underneath the water,

18 took a stone, and with my right hand, started hitting the back of my head,

19 hoping to lose consciousness and to drown in the water. But I wasn't able

20 to do that. I wasn't able to kill myself. I didn't succeed. And so once

21 again I went back crawling to the bank of the stream.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Jahic, while you were there, did you see or hear any

23 vehicle come in the direction of the bus?

24 A. Yes. After my attempt to kill myself, as I say, there was this

25 bank or shore some two metres off. I was at the bottom of that embankment

1 and you could hear the noise of a car at that moment, a car stopping next

2 to the bus. And soon after that, a Chetnik got out wearing a camouflage

3 uniform and holding an automatic rifle. He got in at the front door of

4 the bus, where the driver and the escort had got off the bus prior to the

5 massacre, and then just at random, randomly, he began shooting at the

6 bodies of the people who were there, most probably he wanted to be 100 per

7 cent certain that nobody remained alive, nobody from that group of 50 or

8 60 people.

9 So he shot a burst of gunfire, two rounds of ammunition. And I

10 watched this from a distance.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Jahic, did you recognise the vehicle that that man you

12 called the Chetnik came in? The vehicle you had seen before?

13 A. Yes, it was. It was one of the escort vehicles, Zastava 101,

14 ivory coloured, off-white. And as I say, a man got out of it, wearing a

15 camouflage uniform, a very largely built man, heavily built man, big man,

16 with an automatic rifle. And then he proceeded to do what I just said. He

17 fired two rounds of ammunition, two clips; then stood further away from

18 the bus, threw in another two hand grenades.

19 Q. Now, Mr. Jahic --

20 A. -- for good measure.

21 Q. -- what direction did that car come from?

22 A. The car came from the direction that you take when you go to Pale,

23 and we had gone that same way the previous day, when they took us to Pale

24 and when he did what he came to do. He switched the motor on again and

25 took off in the direction of Srednja.

1 Q. Mr. Jahic, is it correct that after -- sometime after observing

2 this, you crawled back in the bus?

3 A. Yes. I managed somehow, although I was very seriously wounded, I

4 dragged my legs behind me, that I had enough strength to break off two

5 branches in a nearby bush. And as it had -- was raining that day, as it

6 had been raining, I managed to pull myself out up over the embankment onto

7 the road. And the reason why I wanted to go back was because I had heard

8 some moans and cries from somebody who had been hit but who was still

9 alive, who hadn't died straight away.

10 Q. And did you find anybody alive after you had crawled back onto the

11 bus?

12 A. No. Several moments later, I don't know how long afterwards; it

13 took a long time. But when I did finally manage to reach the front door

14 of the bus and haul myself up with the help of my hands and get inside, I

15 started calling out to people, thinking that somebody had fallen on top of

16 somebody else when there were the explosions. So I called out my own name

17 and said: Can I help you? Is there anyone there? Can you help you?

18 But just from time to time I would just hear a voice moaning for

19 their mother, nothing more than that.

20 Q. Mr. Jahic, is it correct that you spent the night on that bus?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. During the night, did you hear or see any vehicles passing by?

23 A. [No interpretation] Da.

24 Q. What did you hear or see?

25 A. When I myself was wounded with fragmentation bullets, two of my

1 ribs had been shattered. I couldn't find a comfortable position, but I

2 managed to crawl to the driver's seat, and I thought that -- as it was a

3 more comfortable seat, that I would be more comfortable. It was a foam

4 upholstered seat. It took me a long time to haul myself up onto the seat.

5 It was pitch dark. It was raining at one point. And then suddenly I

6 heard a vehicle coming from the direction of Pale. It was a Golf, VW Golf

7 vehicle, Golf II, I think it was --

8 Q. Did the vehicle stop?

9 A. -- dark in colour. No, it didn't stop. But as it overtook the

10 bus, the floodlights stopped me from seeing properly. I wasn't able to

11 see properly. But I did manage to see that the car was dark in colour and

12 that it was that particular vehicle, that make. And you could hear music

13 coming out of the car.

14 Q. Could you hear anything else?

15 A. As the car passed by the bus, the co-driver, person sitting next

16 to the driver, in front, he had his window open and he was sort of

17 celebrating that a genocide and massacre had taken place. He celebrated

18 by shooting two bullets up into the air as he passed by the bus.

19 Q. Mr. Jahic, do you know whether or not there were any other

20 survivors besides yourself? And if so, how many?

21 A. After the massacre itself, I managed to see that there were a

22 couple of people who were not wounded as badly. Generally speaking, all

23 those who had survived had been hit, more or less seriously, but they

24 managed to jump out of the bus and go in the direction of the forest and

25 take refuge in the forest and escape that way. Since I was seriously

1 wounded myself, I wasn't able to go with them, I stayed; I remained.

2 Q. Mr. Jahic, how many other survivors of this incident are there, to

3 your knowledge?

4 A. Another seven, which makes a total of eight. Eight of us survived

5 out of the 50 or 60 detainees from the camp and hangar in Rajlovac, which

6 means that 48 were killed.

7 Q. Do you suffer from any permanent disabilities now as a result of

8 the injuries you received in this incident?

9 A. Well, I wasn't able to move for a long time, for nine months. I

10 was unable to walk. I was hit in my spine and in my legs. I am unfit for

11 work and a 100-per cent invalid.

12 Q. Now, is it correct that following the reintegration of the

13 municipality of Novi Grad, subsequent to the Dayton Peace Agreement, you

14 returned to live in Ahatovici?

15 A. Yes. Yes. Like most of the inhabitants of Ahatovici, we all went

16 back to our homesteads where we lived before the war. Although in 1992,

17 the aim was to cleanse the area, ethnically speaking, because everybody

18 was expelled from Ahatovici and Dobrosevici, all the Muslims, and even

19 some Serbs as well. They were expelled too if they were in a mixed

20 marriage, for example. And the mosque was destroyed. And while I myself

21 was in the camp, the Chetnik Sok bragged and boasted that he had blown up

22 the mosque and that the mosque was very solid and strong and that he had

23 to blow it up twice.

24 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, if I may.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

1 MS. EDGERTON: This would, but for the reference to the exhibits

2 that I've referred to previously, conclude the testimony in chief. I note

3 the time, and I could advise the Trial Chamber that were we to view the

4 video clips themselves immediately, although they're not long at all, the

5 clips would probably take us right up to 1.45 this afternoon.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would you have then any additional

7 questions in relation to those clips or just perhaps tomorrow or what

8 would you prefer to do?

9 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I would have some additional

10 questions. I would be asking for the witness's comment, of course, and

11 what he's seen. My preference would be to play this first thing in the

12 morning, in, as I said, as expeditious a manner as possible.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you'd rather adjourn now and to play it

14 tomorrow morning. And you do not fear that what then remains could be

15 influenced by perhaps the impact viewing the video might have on the

16 witness?

17 MS. EDGERTON: I think, Your Honour, there's less chance of that

18 if we do it all tomorrow, in one block.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I leave it up to you, then.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn for the day. And we'd like to see

22 you back, Mr. Jahic, tomorrow morning at 9.00. I'd like to instruct you

23 not to speak with anyone about the testimony you've given until now, and

24 neither about testimony still to be given tomorrow. We will be in this

25 same courtroom tomorrow morning. So we'll adjourn until 9.00 tomorrow

1 morning.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.39 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of

4 November, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25