1 Monday, November 8 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case number

6 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Good afternoon to everyone

8 inside the courtroom, also for those just outside the courtroom assisting

9 us.

10 Mr. Harmon, I see that you're the only one who represents the

11 Prosecution today, and Mr. Stewart and Ms. Cmeric are there for the

12 Defence. Are you ready to call your next witness?

13 MR. HARMON: I am, Your Honour. Just before we begin, I would

14 like to inform the Court for this abbreviated week we have three

15 witnesses, two of whom will testify both on direct and cross-examination,

16 and one of whom, 92 bis, will be available for cross-examination. I've

17 talked to Mr. Stewart. We anticipate finishing the direct examination of

18 Mr. Cengic, our first witness today. We believe that we will finish all

19 three witnesses this week. Mr. Stewart has informed me he will commence

20 his cross-examination possibly tomorrow on Mr. Cengic. Given that

21 schedule, we are comfortable, both parties, that we will conclude all

22 three witnesses today -- all three witnesses this week. Not today. This

23 week.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, if we would not start

25 cross-examination today and if that would result in not finishing with all

1 witnesses this week, then of course the Chamber might see this as a

2 problem. But since both parties are still confident that according to

3 their schedule, we'll finish all three witnesses this week, then we could

4 start according to that schedule.

5 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

6 courtroom. The first witness will be Mr. Cengic?

7 MR. HARMON: Yes. Mr. Ismet Cengic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Cengic. Can you hear me in a

11 language you understand?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Cengic, before you give evidence in this court,

14 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn

15 declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

16 the truth. The text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher. May I

17 invite you to make that solemn declaration.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 WITNESS: ISMET CENGIC

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you thank you very much. Please be seated,

23 Mr. Cengic.

24 Mr. Cengic, it will be Mr. Harmon, counsel for the Prosecution,

25 who examines you first.

1 Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.

2 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Examined by Mr. Harmon:

4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Cengic.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. Mr. Cengic, I would like to begin by going through your

7 background, and the way I propose to proceed is I will state certain data

8 and I will ask you to affirm the data as being correct. Let me begin,

9 then, Mr. Cengic. You were born on the 1st of January, 1945, you are a

10 citizen of Bosnia, and your faith is Muslim; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You were educated in Bosnia, first at Gymnasium, later at the

13 University of Sarajevo, where you studied at the faculty of natural

14 sciences and earned a degree in mathematics; later, you were a professor

15 of mathematics at the high school level in the years 1973 to 1976, 1978 to

16 1990, and 2001 to the present time; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. You served your compulsory military service in the JNA from

19 September 1992 until September of 1993; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You were a member of the SDA political party until the year 2001;

22 you were a member of the Main Board of the SDA of the Novi Grad

23 municipality until 2000; and you were a member of the SDA Main Board at

24 the state level between September of 1997 and September of 2000; is that

25 correct?

1 A. Yes, and I proudly affirm so.

2 Q. You were elected in 1990 as president of the Municipal Assembly of

3 the municipality of Novi Grad; in January of 1996 you were elected by the

4 Municipal Assembly to be the head of the municipality, that is the highest

5 executive branch, head of that branch. Between 1997 and 2000, you were

6 elected president of the municipal council of Novi Grad, and from 2000 to

7 the present, you serve as a deputy on the Novi Grad council; is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes, as a member of the council, in the council of the town of

10 Novi Grad.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.

12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, far be it for us to quarrel with

13 something that both the witness and the Prosecution are happy with, but we

14 do question the dates given in answer to what Mr. Harmon -- or

15 Mr. Harmon's dates in relation to compulsory military service. We just

16 wonder whether those are the correct dates. If they are, well, they are.

17 MR. HARMON: Perhaps I misstated those.

18 Q. Can you tell us, Mr. Cengic, when you served your compulsory

19 military service in the JNA. I may have asked you the wrong dates.

20 A. From September 1972 until September 1973.

21 Q. I obviously stated the wrong dates.

22 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. Stewart.

23 Let us begin with the first exhibit, if we could, and I will need

24 the assistance of the usher in displaying this particular exhibit. Just

25 to inform Your Honours, this exhibit is a large map of the city of

1 Sarajevo. It is unmarked. I present it because this witness will refer

2 to certain locations on it. It may be of benefit to Your Honours in

3 future testimony. I've left it blank so Your Honours can make whatever

4 notations on it you want during this testimony of Mr. Cengic and other

5 witnesses. And if I could have the assistance of the usher just to hold

6 up the map so Mr. Cengic --.

7 Q. Mr. Cengic, what I would like you to do: To your right on the

8 table is a pointer. What I would like you to do, Mr. Cengic, if you would

9 be so kind as to point on this map in just a moment, when the Judges have

10 had an opportunity to open the maps.

11 If the usher could turn just a bit so I could have a little bit of

12 visual line of sight.

13 Mr. Cengic, what I would like you to do on this map, just

14 generally point to the area of the Novi Grad municipality.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. Could you do that again. I want the Judges to be able to see

17 this.

18 MR. HARMON: It's too of a big a map to put on the ELMO, Your

19 Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I understand.

21 MR. HARMON:

22 Q. Just the general area.

23 A. This is the boundary with Vogosca. Here at Paljevo, there is the

24 boundary opposite which is Brijesce. And then we have the boundary with

25 Ilidza, which runs along there. Ilidza is down there. This is the

1 airfield belonging to Ilidza. On -- here lies Novo Sarajevo, in this

2 area. This is the Ivan Krndelj street and if you run along that street,

3 you follow the street and this is where it is. And it is -- and then on

4 the right-hand side, it goes up until Otoka, along the Zrak company

5 complex until Zuc hill, and that is the boundary running all the way

6 around it, meaning this one here.

7 Q. So one more time, if you would, just so the Judges can orient

8 themselves. I know it's difficult the way we're proceeding but if you

9 could one more time take the pointer and pointed to the general area of

10 the boundaries of the municipality of Novi Grad.

11 A. Here goes. Here, all the way down here. Let me just take a look.

12 Here, here. To be precise, there's the river running along here. So

13 that's where the boundary goes. This is where Dobrosevici and other

14 neighbourhoods are and then it runs along the Miljacka river. Here it

15 crosses this particular area, and here actually one part of this area

16 belongs to Ilidza, the larger part of it. The Oslobodjenje part, which is

17 now between the now-UN compound and Oslobodjenje. And then it runs along

18 Nedzarici, over here, all the way here and it curves here, goes along the

19 mountain passes and arrives here, and I don't know exactly the name of the

20 street here. And then the entire left bank of Miljacka belongs to

21 Novi Grad municipality, up until Otoka, and the right bank from the bridge

22 onwards belongs to Novo Sarajevo, whereas Novi Grad is this area here,

23 goes along the Zrak company and then down the slope towards the Bosna

24 River and that's where it runs off.

25 This is where the official airport is, Butmir, which belongs to

1 Ilidza. It is just on the border, on the boundary opposite which is the

2 Dobrinja neighbourhood.

3 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Cengic. Thank you, Madam Usher. Could I

4 have the exhibit number of this, please.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Prosecution Exhibit

6 P382.

7 MR. HARMON: Now if I could have the next exhibit.

8 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we think it's already 284, this map. We

9 think it's already in as 284.

10 MR. HARMON: All right. I am not sure if 284 is not already

11 marked. This is a blank map, as I said in my introduction for the

12 purposes of future reference.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let's continue. Mr. Registrar, could you find 284

14 for me.

15 MR. HARMON: If I could have the next exhibit, please,

16 distributed. I assume, Mr. Registrar, this will be Prosecution Exhibit

17 383.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Let's wait one second for the further numbering,

19 Mr. Harmon, until we have clarified the first issue. Please proceed,

20 Mr. Harmon.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.

23 MR. HARMON: Mr. Cengic, the next exhibit in front of you is a

24 census data taken from the 1991 census for the municipality of Novi Grad.

25 Q. Do you have that exhibit in front of you?

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. This exhibit shows, according to the Novi Grad 1991 census, that

3 the total population of Novi Grad was 136.616 total population; the

4 Muslims had 69.430; Serbs, 37.591; Croats, 8.869; Yugoslavs 15.580; and

5 others, 5.126.

6 Now, could you tell the Trial Chamber, Mr. Cengic, what

7 significant military and public facilities were located in the

8 municipality of Novi Grad.

9 A. Let us start with the military facilities. The barracks which was

10 called Viktor Bubanj barracks at the time, and the military court and the

11 military prison contained within the former JNA barracks. Let me repeat.

12 It was the barracks in the centre of the Novi Grad municipality; it was

13 called Viktor Bubanj. And as far as I remember - I was not involved in

14 politics before the war - there was also the military prosecutor's office,

15 the military court and the military prison there. I'm not quite sure

16 about the military prison, but it definitely was a military facility of

17 the former JNA and it was called Viktor Bubanj before the war.

18 The Halilovici barracks at Halilovici, and within the Rajlovac

19 compound, there were barracks and military academy, also the factory of

20 the aerial engines called Orao and military airfield called Rajlovac. The

21 Nedzarici barracks at Nedzarici. Then the television of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, large -- a large company called Zrak, which was a

23 company of a semi-closed type, because it worked for the army. Then

24 different factories of cables, reinforced material, the company Astro, and

25 in the local community of Rajlovac, there was the main transformer station

1 for the entire area of Sarajevo, also the main gas source for the entire

2 Sarajevo, the main distribution centre for the entire town of Sarajevo and

3 its environs. And I think I might have forgotten something there, but I

4 do remember the main ones, in addition to the schools that were also

5 there. But if necessary, I may enumerate them as well. For me, as a

6 teacher, they are significant. For others, maybe they are not. There

7 were 11 schools.

8 Q. Mr. Cengic, was there a railroad depot and a railroad repair shop

9 located in the Novi Grad municipality?

10 A. Oh, yes. Yes. In the Novi Grad municipality, there was the

11 Alipasin Most station which was a freight station and that's where the

12 railway depot was, where the repairs took place, and where the trains

13 would be stored before being involved in traffic, before being operated.

14 So that was the main hub there for the traffic.

15 Q. Was there also a water treatment plan and an oxygen factory

16 located in the Novi Grad municipality?

17 A. The oxygen factory was there, but not the water treatment. It was

18 actually the town catchment for the treatment of waste water. But that

19 wasn't the water used for drinking. Before the war, we used different

20 springs for potable water, but the main source of it was at Ilidza.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. It was not the town

22 catchment but the sewage.

23 MR. HARMON:

24 Q. Did the municipality of Novi Grad also have major arterial routes

25 that went toward Northern Bosnia running through them? I'm thinking

1 particularly of the roads towards Zenica.

2 A. There were two main roads leading out of the town, crossing the

3 Novi Grad municipality. One of them went in the direction of Ilidza,

4 leading onwards to Mostar and the sea; and the second road went across

5 Rajlovac, in the direction of what is today the highway, and it was the

6 main road leading to the north, towards Northern Bosnia.

7 Q. Now, I'd like to focus your attention, Mr. Cengic, on the

8 multi-party elections in 1990 and I propose to lead you through this

9 examination. I don't think the results what I'm going to be asking you

10 about will be contested, unless counsel wishes to object, I propose to

11 lead you with certain data and I'm going to ask you to affirm whether this

12 is correct.

13 During the 1990 multi-party elections, the SDA, the SDS, and the

14 HDZ cooperated in order to defeat the Communist Party; is that correct?

15 A. At the level of Bosnia and Herzegovina, a sort of a partnership,

16 relationship was established between these two parties, not a coalition,

17 really, but somewhere in the vicinity of that.

18 Q. And the purpose of that coalition, if you say, cooperation was to

19 defeat -- the communist parties; is that correct?

20 A. At any rate, everyone has had enough of the 50 years of communist

21 rule and this was one of the ways of dealing with it.

22 Q. Now, in the Novi Grad municipality, the results of those

23 multi-party elections, in terms of party representation, and I won't name

24 all of the parties, but were as follows: The SDA won 34 per cent of the

25 vote; the SDS won 21 per cent of the vote; and the HDZ won 4 per cent of

1 the vote. Is that correct?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. And in the Municipal Assembly of Novi Grad, there were 100 seats?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You were elected by secret vote of the Municipal Assembly to the

6 president, to the position of the president of the Municipal Assembly; is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes. And it was a full-time job.

9 Q. Now, following the multi-party elections, how were the leading

10 positions in the Novi Grad municipality distributed? How were decisions

11 taken in respect of who, which party would represent -- would take which

12 position? Can you explain that to the Judges, please.

13 A. My first idea was that all the parties that won seats in the

14 Assembly should be assigned part of the executive government as well.

15 However, the SDS did not agree with that, with that proposal, since, at

16 the level of the entire state, an agreement on partnership had been

17 reached, then that opinion had to be honoured. So I gave up on that idea,

18 to put through that kind of proposal, to include other parties that you

19 did not mention here, and that is the SDP and the alliance of the

20 reformist forces. So there was a division along the lines between the

21 SDA, which had 36; the SDS [Realtime transcript read in error "SDA"], that

22 had 21; and the HDZ, that had 4 seats. So if you look at the percentages

23 involved and if you do the appropriate arithmetic, then there was a

24 slightly different balance of power. According to this new mathematics,

25 about 59 per cent was the SDA, and so on and so forth. It's not difficult

1 to do the math involved.

2 Negotiations went on, and like any negotiations, they were

3 protracted. Of course, every party wanted to get as much as possible. To

4 be quite frank, my intention was to have a division according to the

5 results of the elections. I made an offer to Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik that

6 he should give a proposal to see how things should be worked out. Yes, go

7 ahead.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Page 11, line 17, it seems that it says SDA where SDS

9 is meant. In relation to 21. You see two times SDA appears, the second

10 one should be SDS.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. HARMON:

13 Q. Let me ask you: In terms of the negotiations between the parties,

14 each party, and I'm talking now about the HDZ, the SDS, and the SDA, had

15 negotiating teams that met and tried to agree on the distribution of

16 positions; is that correct?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. And indeed, the negotiating team that represented the SDS included

19 the - and let me just ask you to affirm this - Svetozar Milosevic, a

20 member of the SDS who was elected president of the Executive Board of

21 Novi Grad, Radislav Unkovic, who was the president of the Novi Grad

22 municipality, Rade Novakovic, who was in the SDS, and Mr. Krajisnik; is

23 that correct? Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik.

24 A. There is a mistake there. Unkovic was not president of the

25 municipality. He was president of the SDS, Novi Grad.

1 Q. Thank you for that correction. Did I, in terms of identifying the

2 negotiators for the SDS party, did I identify the four principal

3 negotiators?

4 A. Yes. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. Now, in terms of the negotiations for the SDA, there was yourself

6 and Mr. Safet Hadzic, Mr. Muhamed Mrahorovic and Selim Jarkoc; is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. And the HDZ had Mr. Jerkovic, Zeljko Jukic, and Darimir Curic

10 [sic]; is that correct?

11 A. Curcic. Your pronunciation wasn't right. Jerkovic Ante, some of

12 the first names are missing. Ante Jerkovic, Zeljko Jukic, Darimir Curcic.

13 Now, that's the right name, yes.

14 Q. Thank you. In terms of negotiating in the municipality of

15 Novi Grad, for a municipal position, was Mr. Krajisnik elected to any

16 particular position within the Novi Grad municipality?

17 A. No. No. At that time, no one was elected to any position. The

18 elections were simply over, and then Mr. Krajisnik was on the SDS list for

19 the republican parliament, and I was on the SDA list for the municipal

20 parliament. We knew that we had been elected, therefore, but nothing was

21 done, I mean nothing more than that. This was the very beginning.

22 Q. Am I correct in saying that the parties to the negotiations for

23 these municipal-level positions were conducted by people who had been

24 elected within the municipality, with the exception of Mr. Krajisnik, who

25 had been elected to represent Bosnia and Herzegovina?

1 A. Well, perhaps I can put it this way: Negotiations mainly took

2 place between and among the parties. Unkovic or Svetozar Milosevic or

3 Novakovic were not elected to the Municipal Assembly. Mrahorovic was not

4 on the SDA list for the Municipal Assembly either. Ante Jerkovic wasn't

5 either. But these were the party delegations of the SDA, the HDZ and the

6 SDS. So it was the party organs that were negotiating in order to set up

7 a government. There were those who were elected in part at municipal

8 level, and in part there were those who were at state level. Of course,

9 every political party provided certain people from a certain area,

10 probably the people that enjoyed the greatest degree of confidence. And

11 therefore, the results were implemented in that way as well.

12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I say, the witness didn't quite

13 answer Mr. Harmon's question, which Mr. Harmon probably noted and was

14 maybe going to follow up anyway. But just a remark that the slightly

15 leading form of the question, and I haven't objected to leading questions

16 to bring out information fairly quickly on the basic stuff, but the

17 slightly leading form of that question does appear to be inconsistent with

18 something that we'd see in the witness's statement. So perhaps before

19 Mr. Harmon does proceed, if he is going to proceed to try get an answer to

20 the question that he asked, I might mention paragraph 11 of the witness's

21 statement.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, you're invited whenever you ask a witness

23 something which seems not to be consistent with the statement not to lead

24 if it's inconsistent -- well, at least if it's not exactly the same as

25 what we find in the statement.

1 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

2 Q. In the end, Mr. Cengic, were the negotiations that your delegation

3 had with the SDS delegation successful?

4 A. Well, they were. They were successful. We managed to sign an

5 agreement and to distribute executive positions among these three parties,

6 that is to say the SDA, the SDS and the HDZ.

7 Q. And can you inform the Court who the principal negotiator was on

8 behalf of the SDS party.

9 A. I don't know whether anyone had appointed them so, but three

10 persons figured prominently in these talks. It so happened that on behalf

11 of the SDA it was myself and then Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik on behalf of the

12 SDS and Jukic on behalf of the HDZ. Now, whether this was official,

13 whether this was the official position of the SDS, that's something I

14 don't know. But at any rate, it is these three persons who had the main

15 say in the negotiations: Myself, Mr. Krajisnik, and Mr. Jukic. Because

16 what we would agree upon would be carried through ultimately.

17 Q. Can you tell us very succinctly what position the SDS took in

18 respect of the positions that were subject to negotiations.

19 A. Well, at the first option that Mr. Krajisnik wanted was to get

20 more than the election results would reflect. So we could not reach

21 agreement straight away. Then what I proposed was that all the positions

22 that are to be distributed should somehow be valued, with a certain number

23 of points, and it is only that way that we could then distribute these

24 positions. We could not distribute them on the basis of the numbers

25 involved, because not all the positions are of equal importance in the

1 municipality. Some position is more valid than two other positions. So I

2 suggested that they be valued as double or more than double, and

3 ultimately Mr. Krajisnik agreed to that. So every position had its own

4 value.

5 Then, on that basis, we carried out the distribution and we tried

6 to match the election result in this effort too. However, at one point in

7 time, Mr. Krajisnik made an offer. He said that he had agreed with

8 Muhammed Cengic, who was then vice-president of the SDA, that the

9 municipality of Novi Grad should get one more position than merited

10 through the election results, and that this should be compensated for

11 through the municipality of Cajnice. Since the municipality of Novi Grad

12 at that time had about 100.000 voters at the time, and the municipality of

13 Cajnice had about 3.000 voters, these two municipalities were not equal.

14 One position in the municipality of Novi Grad had a large number of votes

15 or voters behind it than the totality of the municipality of Cajnice.

16 However, I said: Well, if that's the way it is, I'll go and

17 check. So I had my doubts about this kind of agreement, but I decided to

18 check it nevertheless. I made a different kind of offer, that the

19 SDS -- or rather, the SDS should give the SDA one seat or one position as

20 a compensation for Novi Grad, but in Banja Luka. Because at that time,

21 the municipality of Novi Grad, in terms of its population figures, was

22 close to the Banja Luka municipality. However, Mr. Krajisnik refused

23 that. I checked at the SDA headquarters whether there was any such

24 agreement with regard to this kind of an exchange of mandates, but they

25 said that the answer was no, that no such agreement was reached.

1 Then we went on. We looked at all the points, we did our math, in

2 terms of all the positions involved, and in this way we distributed the

3 executive and legislative branches of government in the territory of the

4 municipality of Novi Grad.

5 Q. During the course of the negotiations, are you aware of whether

6 Mr. Krajisnik consulted with others before arriving at decisions in

7 respect of certain positions?

8 A. These were indeed important decisions, because implementing the

9 election results is a very important thing. Some things can be lost and

10 some things can be gained through these negotiations. If negotiations are

11 not conducted properly, some of the election results can even be lost in

12 the process. Mr. Krajisnik would sometimes ask for a break and he'd go

13 and consult someone. I had no need to take such breaks. The late

14 Mr. Izetbegovic had full confidence in me, and I had full powers to decide

15 in terms of what the most proper solution would be. Mr. Krajisnik

16 nevertheless had to consult, but I did not find that to be anything

17 unusual.

18 The negotiations took place in the municipality building, where

19 the offices of all the parliamentary parties are in the municipality of

20 Novi Sad [as interpreted]. In hall 327, which is in the middle of the

21 building, the SDA and the SDS and the HDZ had their offices on the first

22 floor and they were right next door to each other. The communists gave us

23 some small rooms, but nevertheless we managed to win the elections from

24 there. There was only a wall separating the SDA offices from the SDS

25 offices. Sometimes I would go to our rooms with my delegation, but more

1 often we'd stay in the hall and wait for the SDS to return. When we went

2 downstairs, I heard, on several occasions, that Mr. Krajisnik, since the

3 walls are thin, talked to someone called Radovan or Raso. But I did not

4 find that to be unusual. I was not eavesdropping. The wall was simply

5 thin, and sometimes people speak very loud.

6 So I did not really attach any importance to it at the time.

7 Q. Now, Mr. Cengic, after the positions had been distributed, I want

8 to focus your attention on a particular local commune of Rajlovac and a

9 problem that developed within that local commune.

10 First of all, can you tell the Judges what a local commune was and

11 how many local communes there were within the Novi Grad municipality.

12 A. A local commune encompasses a certain area within the municipality

13 of Novi Grad. Within Novi Grad there were 28 of them. This is a local

14 community which, with the assistance of the municipality, resolves its own

15 problems at this lower level. The problems that can resolve on its own,

16 it resolves on its own, or they ask the municipality to resolve their

17 problems at the level of the entire municipality.

18 These problems pertain to the building of roads, to water supply,

19 and other infrastructure.

20 Then, when it is necessary to build new elementary schools and

21 other things that are of vital importance within the local community.

22 Q. Mr. Cengic, did each of these local communes have their own

23 assemblies with elected members for those assemblies?

24 A. This is the way it was: In view of the fact that in 1990 there

25 were general elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the first free multi-party

1 elections, that is, then the municipal organs were elected, the city

2 organs, and the republican organs. In June and July, the term of office

3 expired for the local commune agencies. They also had a four-year term.

4 So the municipality of Novi Grad organised these local elections, if I can

5 call them that, on the territory of the respective local communes. A

6 professional in the local services who was in charge of setting the order

7 of these citizens' meetings was Ms. Branka Vlahovic, a good lawyer, an

8 ethnic Serb. She worked out the order for the citizens' meetings in local

9 communes, and at every one of these meetings she was present too.

10 Other persons from the executive and legislative branches, in

11 order to assist the realisation of these meetings, went whenever

12 Ms. Branka deemed it was necessary for them to go and attend.

13 Q. Mr. Cengic --

14 A. I remember --

15 Q. Before we get too far ahead in the legislative developments in

16 your municipality --

17 A. All right.

18 Q. -- is it correct that at these -- that each local commune at the

19 meetings that you described elected their own representatives to represent

20 the local commune?

21 A. The citizens of the municipality from that local commune held

22 citizens' meetings, and they were supposed to elect their own assembly.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. So this meeting was where the electorate was represented.

25 Q. I want to focus on the Rajlovac local commune.

1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I wonder if we could -- I'm fairly

2 confident there isn't any doubt about it, but at page 18, line 19, where

3 June and July was mentioned, it might be useful for the record to have it

4 as 1991, which I'm perfectly confident it is.

5 MR. HARMON: Yes.

6 Q. In June and July the term of the office expired for the local

7 commune agencies. That was your testimony, Mr. Cengic. I take it

8 Mr. Stewart is correct; that's the year 1991. Is that a yes?

9 A. 1991, yes. Yes, 1991.

10 Q. Now let us move on, focussing again on the Rajlovac local commune.

11 I'm going to give you some statistics as to the ethnic breakdown of that

12 commune and I'm going to ask you to affirm if this is correct. The total

13 number of residents in that local commune was 4.013; there were 71 Croats,

14 1.160 Serbs, 2.618 Muslims, 134 persons who identified themselves as

15 Yugoslavs, and 63 persons identified as "others"; is that correct?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. Did Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik have his residence in the Rajlovac

18 commune, specifically, in Zabrdje?

19 A. He had a house in Zabrdje. He lived in Zabrdje, yes.

20 Q. Now, in 1991, was there a problem that arose in respect of the

21 election of the Rajlovac representatives in that commune? You could just

22 answer that question yes or no.

23 A. Yes. There were problems.

24 Q. Now, you had mentioned earlier in one of your answers that there

25 were meetings that were scheduled in each of the local communes when the

1 citizens of the local commune would get together and meet and elect

2 representatives to their own local commune assembly; is that correct?

3 A. The assembly and the other organs of the local commune.

4 Q. Now, July the 8th, 1991 was the date that was selected for the

5 meeting when the citizens of the local commune of Rajlovac were to convene

6 in order to conduct their elections; is that correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Were you present at that meeting on July the 8th, 1991?

9 A. Exactly at the time when the meeting was scheduled, that is to

10 say, at 1800 hours.

11 Q. Can you tell the Court how many citizens from the local commune of

12 Rajlovac were present at that particular meeting?

13 A. At the beginning of the meeting, there were 200 people, a bit over

14 200 people; but later on, more people came in, so there were a lot more

15 than 200. Let's say that before the meeting actually started, we counted

16 about 202 persons present, something like that.

17 Q. And were there people from all ethnicities present at that

18 meeting?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you inform the Court what the problem was that developed at

21 that particular meeting.

22 A. It was customary for the representatives of the people to be

23 present and for certain members to be proposed for the assembly. Bearing

24 in mind that every part of the local commune should be represented in the

25 assembly. Proposals for the assembly were made by Bosniaks and Croats.

1 Mr. Boro Bjelica was present and he said that he is speaking on behalf of

2 the Serbs and that they do not wish to attend the local commune meeting

3 because they would establish a new local commune. That came as news to

4 me. There was a bit of commotion. Serbs who did not belong to the SDS

5 started complaining a bit: Who gave you the right to represent all Serbs?

6 They were saying. But in order to pacify people, I said: All right.

7 Tonight we are going to elect those that are not controversial. Next week

8 we are going to have a meeting yet again.

9 It was the list of the Bosniaks and the list of the Croats that

10 were not controversial, and others too. I said: All right. Since the

11 Serb side did not have a list, next week we will continue this meeting and

12 then we are going to choose the representatives of the Serb people. In

13 principle, we did not --

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Cengic, here, because I

15 don't want to go to the meeting of the 16th of July. I want to stay in

16 the meeting of the 8th of July. And let me ask you, first of all:

17 Mr. Boro Bjelica, what party was he a member of?

18 A. He said that he was there on behalf of the SDS and that's why

19 there was commotion, because those who were not members of the SDS

20 approached him and said: Well, who gave you the right to speak on behalf

21 of all of us? And so on and so forth.

22 Q. And I take it from your testimony that there were some Serbs who

23 were not members of the SDS who were present at that meeting who disagreed

24 with the position taken by Mr. Bjelica.

25 A. They disagreed with his position and I believe that they were

1 surprised at this position, Serbs and others, and that's when this

2 commotion ensued.

3 Q. Did Mr. Bjelica remain at that meeting after he made the

4 announcement?

5 A. Before he left, I told him if he could possibly confirm to me in

6 writing what he had previously said.

7 Q. At the meeting of July 8th, 1991, were candidates -- were lists of

8 candidates put forward by the Serb members of the Rajlovac community and

9 the Croat residents of that community?

10 A. The lists were not complete yet because for them it was a whole

11 new momentum. Generally there was this position that the entire territory

12 of the local commune should be covered, so that the Serbs who were there

13 and who were not members of the SDS, they were from different parts of the

14 local commune. So that it was in their interest to create a comprehensive

15 list so that each and every corner of the local commune would have its own

16 representative at that level.

17 Q. Mr. Cengic, I'd like you to listen very carefully to the question

18 I ask. Now, at the end of -- by the end of the meeting on July the 8th,

19 had there been selections made for Croat representatives and Muslim

20 representatives for the Assembly of the local commune of Rajlovac?

21 A. Yes, because there was nothing controversial there. There were

22 quite enough people there from the local commune so that they could vote

23 and the lists were then compiled for the SDA, SDS, and others.

24 Q. Was the meeting to select the Serb representatives from the local

25 commune of Rajlovac postponed until the 16th of July, 1991?

1 A. I was talking about one week, which meant that it was the 16th of

2 July, yes.

3 Q. And was there -- did you attend the meeting on the 16th of July,

4 1991? Yes, 1991.

5 A. Since this was a follow-up meeting on the first one, I felt the

6 need to be there, although I did not have to.

7 MR. HARMON: If we could have the next exhibit, please.

8 JUDGE ORIE: As far as the numbering of exhibits is concerned,

9 although one could wonder whether it was necessary to tender another map

10 next to P284, because 284 is almost exactly the same, but not for the full

11 hundred per cent, we'll continue the numbering. That means that the new

12 map now is P382, and then, Mr. Registrar, 383 is the --

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Exhibit P383 will be the 1991

14 consensus data for Bosnia, and Exhibit P384 will be the minutes of the

15 meeting of the citizens of the local commune Rajlovac held on 16 July

16 1991.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

18 MR. HARMON:

19 Q. Now, do you have a copy, Mr. Cengic, of Prosecution Exhibit 384 in

20 front of you?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. This is a document that is dated in the upper left-hand corner the

23 22nd of July and this represents minutes of a meeting that took place at

24 the Rajlovac local commune on the 16th of July, 1991 at 1800 hours, a

25 meeting which you attended; is that correct?

1 A. That is correct, yes.

2 Q. I would like you to just direct your attention to the first list

3 of ten names that appears. The first name is Milan. Do you see that list

4 of names?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Can you tell the Judges what that list represents.

7 A. This is a list of Serbs from the territory of the Rajlovac local

8 commune, from all the areas encompassed by the Rajlovac local commune, and

9 this is a list of the Serbs who were to make up the Assembly of the

10 Rajlovac local commune, in the order -- they are listed in the order

11 according to the census for the population of that particular local

12 commune.

13 Q. So the week earlier, when Mr. Bjelica said that the Serbs were not

14 going to participate in the election, nevertheless, the following week,

15 these Serbs were put forward as candidates; correct?

16 A. Yes. The Serbs did put forth their candidates.

17 Q. Were these Serbs, to your knowledge, any of these listed 1 through

18 10, members of the SDS party?

19 A. To my knowledge, no.

20 Q. At the conclusion of this particular meeting on the 16th of July,

21 Mr. Cengic, were Serb representatives selected to the Assembly of the

22 Rajlovac local commune?

23 A. Yes. These same ten people listed here.

24 Q. Now, if we go down to the next lists, there are four lists in

25 succession. Can you just tell the Court what those lists represent, and

1 if there are any Serbs in each of those respective lists.

2 A. With the election of the ten Serbs into the Assembly of the

3 Rajlovac local commune, the assembly election procedure was completed.

4 This was a sort of a legislative body at the local commune level, now the

5 executive organs are ranked lower, and the main organ of the local commune

6 is the local commune council, made up of ten members. You see here we

7 have 11 members, and out of these 11, 6 are Bosniaks. Therefore, far less

8 than those contained in the list.

9 We were trying to achieve a compromise, and that's why Serbs were

10 assigned more seats than originally planned by the list.

11 Q. So in the second list, starting -- that has 11 names, are the last

12 4 names people who were Serbs, 8, 9, 10, and 11?

13 A. As far as I could understand, yes.

14 Q. And if you turn to the next list, the citizens who were proposed

15 for members of the conciliation council, are numbers 4 and 5, to your

16 knowledge, also Serbs?

17 A. I can merely assess that by their names. I did not ask them what

18 ethnicity they belonged to. But yes.

19 Q. All right. And if you turn to the following list, the five

20 persons' names, first being Nijaz, these were people who were unanimously

21 elected to the supervisory board, were any Serbs in that particular list?

22 A. Number 5 -- that is, number 4 and number 5. As far as I can see,

23 there were two.

24 Q. And lastly, on the last list can you identify any Serbs in the

25 consumer council?

1 A. Ranko Grujicic as far as I can see, under number 4.

2 Q. Now if we can turn to the next exhibit.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be number?

4 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P385.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Which are excerpts from the minutes of the citizens

6 meeting in Smiljevici held on the 2nd of July.

7 MR. HARMON: That's correct.

8 Q. This document, Mr. Cengic, is this -- when did you receive this

9 document in respect of the meeting that was held on July 16th, 1991? Did

10 you receive this document before or after that meeting?

11 A. Together with the minutes of the meeting held on the 16th, or

12 rather, when the elections were over, the Assembly of the Novi Grad

13 municipality was supposed to verify the elections held in the local

14 communes, and in that particular period, the results of all the elections

15 that had taken place in all the parts of the municipality were being

16 collected and this actually arrived together. It did not actually arrive

17 directed to me but to the service of -- in charge of this particular local

18 commune with the municipality. Because this particular service was

19 supposed to submit a report to the Municipal Assembly on these elections

20 that had been held.

21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm sorry. We're getting slightly

22 confused here by this. The question that was put at page 26, line 24, 25,

23 this document, Mr. Cengic, is this: "When did you receive this document

24 in respect to the meeting that was held on July 16th, 1991?" Maybe I'm

25 just misunderstanding. The document we've just been handed relates to a

1 meeting held on the 2nd of July. But I'm not sure whether Mr. Harmon's

2 meaning to link this document with the meeting on the 16th of July. That

3 may be the explanation. But in that case, I'm still unclear as to what

4 this link is.

5 MR. HARMON: I can say, Your Honour, that this document, this

6 dated -- obviously relates to a meeting on the 2nd of July. My question

7 to Mr. Cengic was when did he see this document for the first time.

8 MR. STEWART: In that case, I don't really understand why the

9 meeting of the 16th of July was referred to in the question. That's what

10 confused me.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I did understand that it was only after the meeting

12 of the 16th was held that Mr. Cengic received this. Because when you

13 receive the minutes of a meeting it's usually after the meeting. So that

14 it's more than two weeks or more later.

15 MR. STEWART: These are minutes of a meeting held on the 2nd of

16 July. That's my whole point, Your Honour. I don't understand why the

17 meeting of the 16th of July was referred to in the question at all and why

18 the witness wasn't just asked when he received this document.

19 MR. HARMON: Because I'm trying to put a date that's important in

20 relation to when he received this document.

21 MR. STEWART: Why doesn't Mr. Harmon simply ask him first of all

22 when he received the document and then proceed from that simple question

23 and answer to where we go next?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Of course the questions could have been put in a

25 different way, but it does not confuse me, and it doesn't confuse the

1 Chamber.

2 MR. STEWART: Well, I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm the only one that's

3 confused. We have the slight disadvantage with this document, supplied

4 with B/C/S, but the English version of this is something we've only just

5 seen this second. But I -- my confusion was really perhaps in the end not

6 understanding why the -- there was any mention -- I suppose there was some

7 reason for the 16th of July meeting being mentioned in the question at

8 all. But it doesn't seem there was a good reason for that.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether there was a good reason or not, it

10 doesn't confuse us and I do not think that -- the Chamber doesn't think

11 that it's inadmissible to put a question in this way to the witness.

12 MR. STEWART: I'm not confused any more, Your Honour. I'm not

13 happy, but I'm not confused any more.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed, Mr. Harmon.

15 MR. HARMON: Let me just check to see when the English version of

16 this document was given to Mr. Stewart.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed at this moment, since Mr. Stewart is

18 not confused any more. Please proceed.

19 MR. HARMON: All right.

20 Q. Mr. Cengic, let me direct your attention first of all to the first

21 paragraph in this document. This document -- have you had a chance to --

22 A. Could I please get the B/C/S version, the Bosnian version, if you

23 have one. If not, it doesn't matter.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Usher, is the B/C/S version not -- the

25 last couple of pages of the same document?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Could we have this in the

2 Bosnian, this on the screen. No? Okay. Then fine; we can proceed. We

3 can go on.

4 MR. HARMON:

5 Q. Mr. Cengic, if we look at this document, this document in the

6 first paragraph says a large number of citizens, 100, a representative of

7 the Novi Grad municipality and an employee of the Rajlovac local commune

8 were present at the meeting.

9 And in this particular document, under sub-part 2, these 100

10 citizens were informed by Mr. Boro Bjelica about an initiative to

11 establish the local commune of Zabrdje after separation from the present

12 local commune. And it lists a group of four people who were appointed to

13 prepare and submit to the Novi Grad municipality a request for separation.

14 At the end of this document, Mr. Cengic, it says: "Around 400 signatures

15 in support of this position were collected previously."

16 Last line for the signature. Did you ever see that petition with

17 400 signatures?

18 A. No. I did not even see it, let alone receive a copy of it.

19 Q. If we could turn to the next exhibit.

20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could I clarify. I should say straight

21 away. My apologies. We had received this document in English before. As

22 a team here we were slightly confused because Ms. Cmeric had received an

23 e-mail with only the B/C/S attachment, so she'd not seen the English and

24 informed me -- but in fact we have got it. So I acknowledge it was not

25 the first time we received the English version in the last few minutes.

1 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, Mr. Stewart, I'm trying to

3 make this not only today but the whole of the trial, as smooth as

4 possible. And since I stopped Mr. Harmon when he wanted to explain when

5 exactly he provided that to you, because I thought at that moment it would

6 not make that much difference, then I think it -- I stopped him really and

7 I think then to clarify issues that are not at that moment very important,

8 I could have imagined that you would not have responded to what I

9 prevented Mr. Harmon to address.

10 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I'm terribly sorry, but in fact

11 the reason I intervened was first of all to offer an apology to Mr.

12 Harmon, and secondly because I understood that Mr. Harmon and his team

13 might have wasted time and energy, as Mr. Harmon was offering to do,

14 finding out when they first gave us the document and I wanted to save them

15 the effort of doing that when I could immediately see that I got it wrong.

16 I believe it was entirely appropriate.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I stopped him already at that time to do that in open

18 court, of course, whatever- --

19 MR. STEWART: But he would have done it behind the scenes. I

20 wanted to stop the Prosecution, because they're great friends of mine,

21 Your Honour, I wanted to stop them from doing unnecessary work.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I would say develop your friendly relationship to the

23 extent necessary in court and to the extent not necessary, outside of

24 court. Please proceed.

25 MR. HARMON: Could I have the next exhibit, please, which will be

1 a map and which will be Exhibit 386. This exhibit, Your Honours, is a map

2 and a legend which I have prepared with the assistance of Mr. Cengic.

3 Q. Mr. Cengic, when you examine this exhibit and can you confirm that

4 at my request you prepared a map that related to, first of all, marked in

5 green are the approximate boundary line of part of the Novi Grad

6 municipality, the pink line represents the approximate boundary line of

7 the Rajlovac local commune, and the blue line represents the approximate

8 boundary line of the proposed new local commune of Zabrdje. Did you

9 prepare this map and is that correct what I have said?

10 A. I drew this on the basis of my memory as to the situation with

11 regard to the municipality, so I do note that there may be some errors,

12 but not significant ones. As for the blue line, that's based on my

13 assumption on what the request was, because I never received an official

14 map representing the local commune that was supposed to be established by

15 the Serbs. Therefore, this blue line was drawn on the basis of an

16 assumption. I don't have any valid proof of that because I did not

17 receive any. But that's what I inferred on the basis of their requests

18 and on the basis of their proposal, although at a later stage I did say

19 that for practical reasons, it would have been a good idea to provide us

20 with the map. Because whatever ideas we had for the municipality, we put

21 them down on the map. We would -- we knew exactly which house belonged to

22 which local commune. However, the proposing party did not accommodate my

23 request.

24 So this blue-lined map is something I drew on the basis of my

25 assumption of what their proposal had been.

1 Q. Within the blue line, there are seven dots, numbered 1 through 7.

2 And did you assist me by identifying each particular relevant feature in

3 respect of each numbered dot?

4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, if Mr. Harmon wants to lead through

5 this, because he's very helpfully supplied me with a list, so if it speeds

6 things up, I have no objection to that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon --

8 MR. HARMON: Your Honour --

9 JUDGE ORIE: If you would ask the witness to --

10 MR. HARMON: I'm going to tender the legend as well with the map.

11 I just want to get his answer as to whether he assisted me in terms of

12 identifying those features and placing those dots on the map.

13 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand that you're asking what he did and

14 not -- yes. Okay. Yes.

15 MR. HARMON:

16 Q. Mr. Cengic, did you assist me in identifying the features and did

17 we mark those features with numbers 1 through 7?

18 A. Yes. Again, on the basis of what I remembered, given the time

19 that elapsed. I might have made a mistake with the figure somewhere, but

20 these features were indeed on that particular area.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 MR. HARMON:

23 Q. Now --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, I would have one question, because under

25 number 7, railroad depot, railroad repair shop appears, Mr. Cengic. Your

1 earlier testimony was that there was a railroad depot, railroad repair in

2 Alipasin Most. Is that the same? Because at least number 7 appears closer

3 to Rajlovac than Alipasin Most. And --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's where the freight station

5 was. At Alipasin Most, there was this smaller station, but this more

6 important depot was situated where number 7 is. Because before the war, I

7 taught as a teacher at a railway school and I took my students there quite

8 often.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for this clarification. Please proceed.

10 MR. HARMON: And you'll see, Your Honour, it's difficult to put a

11 number to cover the whole feature. There's a series of parallel lines,

12 which is essentially a series of railroad lines and it's the general area.

13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I understand that this legend was

14 probably prepared fairly recently. Do I take it that there isn't a B/C/S

15 version of this piece of paper with the seven points at the moment?

16 MR. HARMON: There is not. We just prepared this.

17 MR. STEWART: Yes. The only reason I ask is because I understand

18 the witness is confirming that he helped prepare it, so it was done in

19 English, but that means, of course, Mr. Krajisnik doesn't have one.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would there be a possibility -- I take it that

21 translation will be made on very short notice and that perhaps meanwhile

22 Ms. Cmeric could assist in the accused to understand what is this perhaps

23 during the next break.

24 MR. STEWART: Indeed, Your Honour. I was only really trying this

25 week to relieve Ms. Cmeric of an extra task of translation.

1 MR. HARMON: We will be glad to provide one, Your Honour. We'll

2 get one before the conclusion of this session.

3 MR. STEWART: Thank you very much. Thank you.

4 MR. HARMON:

5 Q. Now, Mr. Cengic, you were confronted with a demand, essentially,

6 to create a new municipality, local commune of Zabrdje, out of a

7 community, local commune of Rajlovac. What did you do, what steps did you

8 take, to solve the problem?

9 A. At that point in time, I was opposed to any sort of divisions at

10 any level. Probably I was guided by what I knew of the war in Croatia,

11 and this frightened me in a way, and that's why I took a pragmatic

12 position of trying to solve problems. In view of the fact that I did not

13 see the list that was mentioned here, this petition signed by 400 persons

14 for the separation of the local commune, I really had my great suspicions

15 about the very existence of this document. That's why I asked for a

16 survey to be conducted on the ground, amongst the populace that was

17 enveloped by the particular local commune that was supposed to become a

18 local commune on the request of the Serbs, without actually knowing that I

19 was going to need this at a certain point. And when I started writing a

20 book, I managed to save some of these documents and among them were lists

21 produced by this survey, just an incomplete record, because I was unable

22 to have the files of these. Because the person who was in charge of the

23 archives, who we usually called such a person "secretary," he took away

24 both the stamp and the whole documentation. He was the -- Zeljko Travar,

25 members of the SDS. However, I did find some traces of it anyway.

1 Q. Let me interrupt again and ask you to listen very carefully to the

2 question I'm asking. The question I asked was what did you do and you

3 started to describe a survey. Can you tell the Court how that survey was

4 conducted.

5 A. I didn't do this myself. It's citizens of the local commune of

6 Rajlovac who went from one house to another, in different areas, in

7 Smiljevici, Zabrdje, Dvor, then the Franjo Kluz neighbourhood, et cetera,

8 and they asked citizens whether -- or actually, I didn't want to put a

9 leading question in any way. I actually phrased the question in a way

10 which was unfavourable to me. I don't have it here right now, but it is

11 written down. This question that was put to the citizens was not one that

12 favoured me. It was actually the opposite. So I would appreciate it if

13 it could be read out, because I don't have it here.

14 Q. Mr. Cengic, I'm going to supply you with a copy of the next

15 exhibit. It's 387. And I'm going to ask you to identify these exhibits.

16 It's an exhibit of three pages.

17 A. What I wished to point out here is that every list has, at the

18 very beginning, the following wording: We, the below-mentioned citizens

19 are in favour of leaving the local commune.

20 So I did not suggest an answer that would favour my own opinion. I

21 put one that was the other way around. And then we have a list of

22 citizens, their names and surnames, and their signatures.

23 Q. And if we take a look at the survey from the area 21 May street,

24 Rajlovac, it's in the upper left-hand corner, we see a list with 35 names

25 and we have a yes, and a no column. And I take it, Mr. Cengic, if you

1 answered no, you were not in favour of separation from the Rajlovac local

2 commune; and if your answer was yes, then you were in favour of separation

3 from the local commune. Is that correct?

4 A. You're right, yes.

5 Q. And the list for the people surveyed from the area of 21 May

6 Street Rajlovac, the last six names, those people indicated they were in

7 favour of leaving; is that correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. If we turn to the survey form for the Smiljevici settlement, we

10 see the responses were all in the negative; is that correct?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. And if we turn to the area of Franjo Kluz, we see that there were

13 three abstentions and the remaining people in that particular area were

14 opposed to the separation; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, are these -- this exhibit is an example, are examples of the

17 form -- the survey forms that were used; is that correct?

18 A. Yes. Yes, you're right.

19 Q. These do not represent the total results of the survey that was

20 conducted in the Rajlovac local commune; is that correct?

21 A. This may be considered a random sample.

22 Q. Now, as a result of conducting the survey of the residents in the

23 Rajlovac local commune, do you recall what the results were?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, before we continue, I see that in the

25 translation, the question put on the top of the answers is always

1 translated in exactly the same way. At the same time, I see that at

2 least, apart from talking about being confused, whether confusion could

3 be -- could arise from this question. But I see that in the original, the

4 words are at least not exactly the same. And I'd like first to check.

5 And I'll just draw your attention to the detail, for example, that in the

6 first one, the 21st of May Street, at least I identify a word which reads

7 like "Potpisani" which, as far as I can see, does not appear in the second

8 page with the question and does appear again on the third page. I'm not

9 saying that it's incorrectly translated, but at least I'd like to be sure

10 that what is translated as literally the same question is -- does reflect

11 the two versions of the question as they appear on top of the B/C/S lists.

12 MR. HARMON: Yes. These are official translations. I don't read

13 the language. So if we could perhaps ask Mr. Cengic to read the question.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, slowly.

15 MR. HARMON: Very slowly.

16 Q. Mr. Cengic, if you could read --

17 A. Obviously they are the same. However, some copies are illegible,

18 because it is a poor copy, you see. But yes, what it says here is the

19 same thing. The text is the same. We, the undersigned --

20 Q. If you would just listen --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Cengic, I see at least one word what does not

22 appear in one of the questions. Could you perhaps, because that's I think

23 the -- these are the copies best readable, first read the question as it

24 exactly appears in the B/C/S version of the document which is about the

25 Smiljevici settlement, that is, the -- in B/C/S, it's the second page, and

1 the last three digits on the top stamped on that page are 456. Could you

2 please slowly read the text of that question.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "We, the below-mentioned citizens,

4 are in favour of leaving the local commune." And now the question reads

5 as follows: "We are not in favour of leaving." The content is the same,

6 except that the letters are small.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Cengic, I'm not asking for comment. I just asked

8 you to read --

9 MR. STEWART: Excuse me. It could be, I hesitate, but it could be

10 that we could shorten things.

11 JUDGE ORIE: If you have a solution.

12 MR. STEWART: Yes. On the Defence side, Your Honour, we're quite

13 satisfied that the distinction is an immaterial distinction between

14 something that means undersigned and something that means below stated,

15 and the substance is exactly the same. And if the Prosecution are happy,

16 we are happy that there is no material distinction here at all and that

17 there's no need to explore this translation issue.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much --

19 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: -- for your assistance please proceed, Mr. Harmon.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I see what you meant. I did not

22 quite understand at first.

23 MR. HARMON:

24 Q. Mr. Cengic, can you tell the Trial Chamber what the results of the

25 survey that was conducted in the Rajlovac local commune showed?

1 A. The majority was against the separation, against the local commune

2 leaving.

3 Q. Now, in July of 1991, in an attempt to resolve this problem that

4 had developed in the Rajlovac local commune, did you call Mr. Momcilo

5 Krajisnik to assist you?

6 A. Before that, I sent letters to all the major companies that we

7 identified here a few minutes ago. About 10.000 workers were employed

8 there. And I asked them for their opinions and I got a negative answer on

9 that score. Then I -- or actually, we have to bear in mind the following:

10 August is a time when people go on vacation usually. That's a month when

11 people usually go on vacation. So I asked Mr. Krajisnik to come and to

12 help me resolve this problem. Because he was very influential and that he

13 lived there -- or rather, I don't know whether he lived there. I don't

14 know whether he lived there when he was an elected official, but I knew

15 that his parents lived there and that his parents' house was there and I

16 knew that he was influential in the area.

17 Q. Did he respond to your request?

18 A. Well, my understanding was that Mr. Krajisnik was very busy during

19 those days, but he did come, nevertheless.

20 Q. Did you have a meeting with him to try to resolve the problem that

21 was confronting you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you describe to the Judges that meeting.

24 A. Mr. Krajisnik came to my office. It was on the first floor. We

25 had a cup of coffee there. And then I started describing the problem. I

1 realised that Mr. Krajisnik was aware of the problem, had been aware of

2 the problem, and in a way he supported the sponsors of that proposal. We

3 did not talk about it that much. Mr. Krajisnik dealt with his own problem

4 to a greater extent. He asked for someone to come from the town planning

5 office so that he could figure out how he would legalise his house. I had

6 invited him to resolve the problem at hand, and Mr. Krajisnik moved on to

7 finding a solution to his own personal problem.

8 Q. And when you say in your answer: "And in a way he supported the

9 sponsors of the proposal," can you be more explicit in how he expressed

10 that to you?

11 A. Well, it's hard to remember after 15 years what his words were. I

12 do not remember exactly, but the gist of the wording more or less

13 coincided with the tone of the letter sent by Boro Bjelica. I cannot

14 remember the words now, after 15 years. At that time -- well, words did

15 not mean a great deal to me. They did not lead to a solution to the

16 problem. Because we still had a status quo.

17 Q. Mr. Cengic, at the time you had this meeting with Mr. Krajisnik,

18 had you received the results of the survey that we discussed that was

19 conducted?

20 A. As far as I remember, no.

21 Q. Now, if we could have the next exhibit, please.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, before we continue, I look at the clock.

23 MR. HARMON: I'm happy to take a break at this point in time.

24 JUDGE ORIE: At this point in time. Yes. Then --

25 MR. HARMON: Before we distribute this exhibit or we could

1 distribute it and then we could--

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We could distribute the exhibit and then ...

3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P388,

4 Your Honours, that's the article "What to do with Zabrdje" by

5 Ankica Posavljak for the Novogradsko Oko, first issue Sarajevo, February

6 1992.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until 4.30.

8 --- Recess taken at 4.02 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 4.34 p.m.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher.

11 MR. HARMON: While we're waiting for the witness to appear,

12 Your Honour, the legend for the map has been prepared. I've distributed

13 it to counsel. It's been hopefully distributed to Your Honours as well.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. As a matter of fact, I reread the

15 answer of the witness in relation to the railway depot, et cetera. It was

16 not quite clear whether he at that time already referred to this railway

17 complex or to the railway complex which is quite nearby. But I think at

18 this moment it's not something vital. Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.

19 MR. HARMON: If I could -- then the last exhibit has been

20 distributed, I take it. It's Prosecution Exhibit 388. Is that correct?

21 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Mr. Harmon.

22 MR. HARMON: All right.

23 Q. Mr. Cengic, in front of you is a Prosecution exhibit. It is a

24 translation of an article. It is headed "What to do with Zabrdje?" Let

25 me first of all put this article in the right context. This article

1 appeared in a publication Novogradsko Oko, printed in Sarajevo in February

2 of 1992; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And as to this interview that we're going to be paying attention

5 to, interview of Mr. Krajisnik, we don't know when exactly this interview

6 took place, based on what's contained in the newspaper article; is that

7 correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Let me turn your attention to parts of this article. You

10 testified earlier that you had asked Mr. Krajisnik to come to Novi Grad to

11 assist in the dispute over the settlement, the new settlement of Zabrdje.

12 Let me read to you a portion of this article and interview with

13 Mr. Krajisnik. I'm referring to the last paragraph in the English

14 translation of page 1: "I promised to Ismet Cengic that I would do

15 everything to prevent the use of violence and to make sure that changes

16 are carried out as determined by the constitution and according to the

17 decision of the Municipality. However, the Municipality made mistake

18 because this issue was not included in the Assembly agenda and they did

19 not meet natural request of the citizens, even though all inhabitants of

20 this area came out in favour of establishing local commune."

21 Now, I'd like to ask you, Mr. Cengic: In your meetings with the

22 Serb representatives, local representatives, prior to your meeting with

23 Mr. Krajisnik, had there been any threats of violence?

24 A. There weren't. This is the first time this became part of the

25 dialogue, this violence. I don't know why. No one ever mentioned

1 violence before in any talks. This is the first time it appeared

2 officially.

3 Q. Now, is the portion of the interview where Mr. Krajisnik says:

4 "All of the inhabitants of this area came out in favour of establishing a

5 local commune" based on the information that was available to you on the

6 8th of July and based on the information that subsequently you became

7 aware of from the survey? Is that an accurate statement?

8 A. Obviously, this is not correct, even if the poll had not been

9 carried out, the one that I had initiated, 400 signatories does not

10 include all the inhabitants of the local commune, if you look at the

11 census, you will see that this does not constitute a majority.

12 Q. Now, Mr. Cengic, you've described your efforts to resolve the

13 problem, first of all by conducting a survey to verify yourself what the

14 popular will was; two, calling Mr. Krajisnik. You also created a

15 commission to look into this problem; is that correct?

16 A. In view of the fact that all the steps that I had taken had not

17 yielded results, I proposed to all political parties that they all appoint

18 a representative each, and that we should tour the area and see whether we

19 can find a solution to the problem. The delegation consisted of all the

20 parliamentary parties in the Municipal Assembly of Novi Grad.

21 Q. And did that commission yield results that helped you solve the

22 problem or was it unsuccessful?

23 A. No. No. No. No. Nothing happened. Quite simply, the sponsors

24 of the proposal were not in favour of a debate. They wanted to have a

25 local commune of their own and they did not let the commission have proper

1 insight, except for a rough map of the local commune, and they did not

2 even give them a more detailed explanation. They did not even give them a

3 study on the matter involved or any such thing.

4 Q. I would like to now go to the next exhibit, which is a binder,

5 Your Honours. It contains 11 intercepts and it contains also a

6 declaration prepared by the witness. This will be Prosecutor's Exhibit

7 389. To orient Your Honours to this exhibit, you will see there are tabs

8 between each of these exhibits. They bear a KID number and a tab number,

9 and I will be referring to -- will be playing four intercepts out of this

10 and I'll direct Your Honours to the appropriate tab number for the text of

11 the intercept.

12 Mr. Cengic, in respect of this particular exhibit, did you have

13 the opportunity to listen to a number of exhibits -- number of intercepts

14 in the last two days?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And were you asked to identify or attempt to identify the voices

17 contained in those intercepts?

18 A. Yes. In most cases, I managed to do that.

19 Q. And if you would take a look at -- in the binder itself, you'll

20 see a declaration and two pages attached to that declaration. Do you see

21 that part of this exhibit?

22 A. Yes. Yes, I recognised these.

23 Q. And does this declaration that says that you have listened to the

24 following intercepted telephone conversations and identified voices of the

25 participants as indicated below, does this declaration bear your signature

1 and the date of November 6th, 2004?

2 A. Yes. Yes, yes.

3 Q. On the second and third pages of this declaration, do your

4 initials -- does your signature appear in the lower right-hand corner?

5 A. My initials, yes.

6 Q. And in the actual pages 2 and 3 of the declaration, if you turn to

7 that, you will see a section that deals with voice ID, and as to each

8 particular intercept, have you identified by name those persons whose

9 voices you recognised in the specific intercept?

10 A. I recognised all the ones that are mentioned here.

11 Q. All right. If we could turn to the intercept, Your Honours, this

12 is an intercept, and counsel, this is an intercept that is found at tab 4

13 of the exhibit 389. If we could play that intercept.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Has the text been provided to the booth?

15 MR. HARMON: Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: It will be translated into French for the

17 completeness of the transcript.

18 MR. HARMON: It has, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

20 [Intercept played]

21 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

22 "Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I was down in Novi Grad until late. I

23 couldn't make --

24 Radovan KARADZIC: Well, how is it down there? What's the

25 situation?

1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Well, you know, the assembly is.

2 Radovan KARADZIC: Blocked.

3 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Outvoting completely blocked.

4 Radovan KARADZIC: Right.

5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: So we agreed on something. They wanted it

6 immediately. You know what our people are like, so --.

7 Radovan KARADZIC: Yeah, yeah.

8 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: So we have made a different arrangement.

9 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes.

10 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I calmed down things a bit. They are -- they

11 never -- I remember when I was -- well, there was a split later. That man

12 Unkovic contributed a lot to that, but there were others as well.

13 Radovan KARADZIC: I told you, man, that is -- he is privately --

14 he appears to be good and --.

15 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, yes. You are -- well, you were

16 completely right.

17 Radovan KARADZIC: No, they are.

18 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I have to --

19 Radovan KARADZIC: Well, you know, they are unsuitable

20 personalities.

21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: That's right, quarrelsome. Well, not

22 quarrelsome. There are various --.

23 Radovan KARADZIC: Intolerant, hard.

24 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: It's a bit of a problem, but that, all in all,

25 let me tell you --

1 Radovan KARADZIC: They are not open to others, you know. He

2 can't take on board any new position which he likes, which he might like,

3 somebody else's position.

4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes.

5 Radovan KARADZIC: They are deficient personalities, and he

6 remains narrow-minded.

7 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes.

8 Radovan KARADZIC: Only broad-minded personalities can --

9 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes.

10 Radovan KARADZIC: To take on board, to enrich themselves.

11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes.

12 Radovan KARADZIC: With other peoples' positions, which become

13 theirs. You know that.

14 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, yes, you're right.

15 Radovan KARADZIC: He can't do that.

16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Where are you now?

17 Radovan KARADZIC: At the clinic.

18 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: That thing yesterday, how did you fare up

19 there in that respect?

20 Radovan KARADZIC: Oh, fine.

21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yeah?

22 Radovan KARADZIC: I see lots of publicity. Only Oslobodjenje

23 doesn't give a word about it, but on all the front pages, in Borba,

24 everywhere.

25 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Right, it's a disgrace now they're doing

1 this. It's --

2 Radovan KARADZIC: A disgrace, a disgrace, but there's no -- well,

3 they will wake up one day.

4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Right.

5 Radovan KARADZIC: On another topic, there is a small

6 disappointment. You will understand me. It appears that Milosevic, he

7 went to Macedonia. It seems that he made a step in the direction of

8 Izetbegovic's platform.

9 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes.

10 Radovan KARADZIC: And fuck -- in this internal -- you understand

11 me completely, don't you?

12 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I know, I know. With them?

13 Radovan KARADZIC: No. Both with them and for them and for

14 Bosnia. Well, he says you and Bosnia determine -- arrange your relations

15 as you see fit, but some mutual sovereignty could be -- you could

16 guarantee it to each other, something like that. To tell you the truth,

17 simply put, I was disappointed. He went down for negotiations for talks

18 with this Gligorov. I don't know whether they will issue a statement or

19 not regarding this. But, you know, fuck.

20 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right. With him down there, but with this

21 one over there?

22 Radovan KARADZIC: Well, I think he is evidently -- if not that, I

23 think it was suggested to him by the Americans, the English, and the

24 French. If they will not accept that, then they are fucked. Alija, you

25 know, they had it up to here with Alija and with Gligorov. Gligorov also

1 cannot, won't. America won't quarrel with Greece over Gligorov.

2 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yeah.

3 Radovan KARADZIC: It will not quarrel with Greece, so they are

4 ready for consultation. Here you have a smaller Yugoslavia with a

5 condition that the republics internally should be sovereign in relation to

6 each other.

7 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yeah.

8 Radovan KARADZIC: Some kind of internal sovereignty, that is, the

9 sovereignty be tied to the citizens, peoples and republics, so that that

10 is understood. But of course, the citizens and the peoples. However,

11 there is no way we can agree to this. I don't know now how we are going

12 to enter into a conflict with Milosevic now?

13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: No problem. Easy.

14 Radovan KARADZIC: We'll have to enter into a conflict with

15 Milosevic now.

16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: No, no. We'll do it nicely. Don't worry.

17 Radovan KARADZIC: I don't know. He is -- well, because if

18 Alija -

19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Have you seen him?

20 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, yes. You know, when the two of us think

21 the same.

22 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes.

23 Radovan KARADZIC: You and I think the same when we speak and

24 everything.

25 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes.

1 Radovan KARADZIC: Well now, I was looking at that draft and all

2 that.

3 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Um, is it any good?

4 Radovan KARADZIC: Well, no, insofar as it is a step towards --.

5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, I know.

6 Radovan KARADZIC: Towards that platform. But I realise that

7 actually they told him the foreign factor advised him that Serbia should

8 make that concession and that if Izetbegovic and Gligorov did not accept

9 it, then Gligorov would be finished, because Greece would not -- America

10 would not sacrifice Greece, which is very important to them down there in

11 the Mediterranean. Macedonia would not get any kind of independence.

12 Izetbegovic would also get a rap on the knuckles, because if he should

13 refuse that.

14 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yeah, he will not refuse.

15 Radovan KARADZIC: I'm afraid he will not refuse.

16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Only maybe these other ones will not refuse,

17 but --

18 Radovan KARADZIC: I am afraid they will not refuse, because a

19 great concession for him.

20 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: No, no.

21 Radovan KARADZIC: The sovereignty should be tied to the republic

22 as well as the citizens, peoples, and republics. Should be tied to the

23 republic, that is very suspicious, because that's a way out for him. He

24 will endorse this with open arms, because that's basically a return to his

25 position. And if he should refuse, then we would be sitting pretty.

1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: He won't refuse, no way.

2 Radovan KARADZIC: If he should refuse, then --

3 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: He won't.

4 Radovan KARADZIC: Then we would be sitting pretty.

5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Just a little bit more than he's got, that's

6 excellent for him.

7 Radovan KARADZIC: Yeah. I don't know. If he should refuse,

8 because then we would have --

9 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Let's not worry. We'll see. Let it run its

10 course. We have --

11 Radovan KARADZIC: I'm fucking worried. We would have to go

12 openly with --

13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: No, no. We'll find a way out, don't you

14 worry.

15 Radovan KARADZIC: How will you find a way out if he agrees to

16 it?

17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: We'll do our work, don't you worry.

18 Radovan KARADZIC: Because look --

19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Inside that, firm.

20 Radovan KARADZIC: Yeah, if he should agree. If he agrees, then

21 you cannot, then you can't, then the foreigners will put pressure on us.

22 If he should refuse, then everybody, then our actions are fully justified,

23 100 per cent justified. I think not -- regionalisation is not the problem

24 now in terms of the internal organisation of the republic, but --

25 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I know.

1 Radovan KARADZIC: Our problems, our plans then fall through.

2 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I know.

3 Radovan KARADZIC: Because they will say to you: What do you

4 want? Bosnia has agreed to the organisation of the state.

5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes.

6 Radovan KARADZIC: If he has sovereignty in relation to Serbia and

7 to others, that is mutually -- if they are -- if they guarantee

8 sovereignty, that's a big problem now, you know, because the world wants

9 to preserve the Yugoslav framework, but not as a communist creation but as

10 a democratic Yugoslavia. They want -- these foreigners want Bosnia not to

11 be Islamic, not to get an Islamic republic.

12 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, yes.

13 Radovan KARADZIC: And I can tell you that I was terribly

14 disappointed. This about Yugoslavia is excellent, but I was disappointed

15 by Milosevic making this step in the direction of Izetbegovic and

16 Gligorov. However, I got the impression I could not discuss it fully,

17 openly, because I got the impression that this was suggested to him by the

18 English, the French, and the Americans, to make this concession. So that

19 if they refuse, then they are fucked. If they refuse and if Croatia

20 refuses the Blue Helmets, then it is fucked. Babic is full of shit. We

21 will have to put the squeeze on him. We shall write to his people down

22 there that he is steering a dangerous course. Vance's must be accepted

23 down there, not for Bosnia, but down there it must. There you are now.

24 Now you think about it, I think you understood me completely.

25 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Completely, completely.

1 Radovan KARADZIC: You completely understood my concerns. I mean,

2 fuck, you bleed, you work on something for a year and a half, and then at

3 one point he makes a concession like that. I understand that there is

4 pressure and that that is politics and that it is pressure for the foreign

5 powers. I think that right now America, England and France are in control

6 of the game because they want to put Germany in a tight spot. Yup.

7 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: But we must not rely on that, somebody not

8 doing something. We must know what we want.

9 Radovan KARADZIC: No, but the problem is, what if he accepts?

10 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Well he's sure to accept. Both of them are.

11 Neither of them has a way out.

12 Radovan KARADZIC: I know, but fuck, then that is inconvenient for

13 us. I know. That's the problem.

14 Radovan KARADZIC: Because he accepted them; he sold his skin

15 dear.

16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes.

17 Radovan KARADZIC: He sold his skin dear and --

18 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Huh.

19 Radovan KARADZIC: That is the domination in Yugoslavia and

20 Bosnia.

21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yeah, sure.

22 Radovan KARADZIC: In Bosnia itself and in Yugoslavia.

23 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: What's the matter with you? Do you realise

24 what that means? Oh, dear.

25 Radovan KARADZIC: I don't know. We shall have to pursue our own

1 policy. We'll have to pursue our own policy, even at the price of

2 splitting with Milosevic. I don't think we have --

3 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Tell me, are you planning for the two of us to

4 sit down for a while?

5 Radovan KARADZIC: We would have to. I heard that we're thinking

6 about something tomorrow.

7 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: No.

8 Radovan KARADZIC: Milan told me, something having to do with

9 businessmen.

10 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: No, I told them something else. I was

11 thinking that we should sit down a bit today.

12 Radovan KARADZIC: All right.

13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: We had a meeting here yesterday. I don't

14 think we are planning to go. I have a meeting here.

15 Radovan KARADZIC: When is that?

16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Well I don't know. We can -- you and I can

17 sit down here. You can have a rest. After four or five hours. All

18 right?

19 Radovan KARADZIC: All right. That's fine.

20 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right, we'll talk again later.

21 Radovan KARADZIC: All right.

22 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I'll think it over."

23 MR. HARMON:

24 Q. Mr. Cengic, this is an intercept that was recorded on the 26th of

25 December, 1991, in which Mr. Krajisnik, on page 1 of the English version,

1 translation, says that he had been down in Novi Grad until late. Now, I'd

2 like to turn to the next exhibits, two exhibits, if I could.

3 MR. HARMON: And Mr. Registrar, if we could take and give the

4 number 390 to the document that bears the ERN number 00707977. And if we

5 could give the exhibit number 391 to the exhibit that bears the ERN number

6 00707976, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Those two documents are numbered accordingly,

8 Mr. Harmon.

9 MR. HARMON: Thank you. And if the witness could be given both of

10 those exhibits at the same time, please.

11 Q. Mr. Cengic, these documents have now been distributed. Let me

12 direct your attention to both of these exhibits. I know you're familiar

13 with them. If you could turn your attention first of all to Exhibit 390,

14 and this is an exhibit that is a letter that is addressed to you. On the

15 second page, it bears the date 27 of December, 1991. And I want to ask

16 you just very quickly about some features in that letter. First of all,

17 can you identify any of the signatures that appear at the end of that

18 letter under the caption "Municipal SDS board, Club of Representatives"?

19 A. Mijatovic, president of the Club of Representatives of the

20 Municipality of Novi Grad.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Cengic, on that same document there is handwritten item

22 on the first page above the addressee. It says "30/12/1991." Do you see

23 what I'm referring to?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know whose signature, whose handwriting that is?

1 A. I used to date the documentation upon receiving it, so that's my

2 handwriting.

3 Q. Now, in this particular letter, this letter is essentially a

4 letter of complaint, and it identifies, in part, the basis of the

5 complaint, and I'm quoting from the last paragraph on page 1 of the

6 English: "The failure to put on the agenda the citizens' initiative to

7 separate and establish the local commune of Rajlovac 1."

8 On the second page of the English translation, the last paragraph,

9 it reads: "If you choose to maintain the present situation, we would like

10 to inform you that our people, in order to protect their national

11 interests, will establish their own Serbian Assembly and will exclusively

12 implement and observe its decisions."

13 Now, would you compare this document with then Prosecutor's

14 Exhibit 391, the next exhibit, which is an exhibit which, as one can see

15 at the bottom of the text, has -- bears the date 23 December 1991, and it

16 is a -- the subject is a proposal for the impeachment of the president of

17 the Novi Grad Sarajevo Municipal Assembly. Let me direct your attention

18 to two features on this letter. First of all, there is a stamp on the

19 upper right-hand side of this document that says "Received 27 December

20 1991." Is that the date when this document was received by the Novi Grad

21 Sarajevo Municipal Assembly?

22 A. Yes, that is the official stamp of the municipality.

23 Q. And at the bottom of the document, there is handwriting with a

24 signature. Is that your signature? It says "received on 31 December."

25 A. Yes. Yes, it is. Yes.

1 Q. Okay. Just to put these in the proper chronological order: Which

2 of these two documents, 390 or 391, did you receive first?

3 A. The one with it says "30th December 1991" on the right-hand side.

4 Q. And that's Prosecution Exhibit 390 you received first?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, despite your efforts to resolve the situation in respect to

7 the Rajlovac new local commune, was that problem effectively resolved?

8 A. It was not resolved. The SDS was well aware of it not having been

9 solved and that it was impossible to solve it, because the Municipal

10 Assembly had not officially received the documentation it had asked for,

11 that is to say, the map, and the explanation backing the request for the

12 separation. Your Honours, I would like to draw your attention to the fact

13 that this letter does not bear the municipal stamp on the top. This

14 document, therefore, did not go through the regular procedure but was

15 handed in directly to me by a person who was a representative of the SDS.

16 Q. When you say, Mr. Cengic, "this document," are you referring to

17 Prosecution Exhibit 390 or Prosecution Exhibit 391?

18 A. This letter containing the reasons, without a signature.

19 Q. That would be Prosecution Exhibit 390; is that correct?

20 A. I don't have that one here. I'm sorry.

21 Q. I'm mistaken on that. You have -- you should have two documents

22 in front of you, Mr. Cengic.

23 A. Yes, I do. I have two documents.

24 Q. One is a document that is numbered 391, one is a document that is

25 numbered 390. Perhaps the usher can assist the witness in identifying --

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Cengic, the document with the list of 20

2 signatures is P3 --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where? Where does it say that? I

4 don't see that any -- written anywhere here.

5 MR. HARMON:

6 Q. Let me assist you a different way, Mr. Cengic. Apparently the

7 number is not indicated on that particular document. 391 bears the ERN

8 number at the top --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, if the witness would look at the

10 original, then we have a clear distinction. 391, half of the page is

11 covered with 20 signatures. That's the document we're looking at, at this

12 moment. Could you please -- the original B/C/S, could you just show

13 it -- that's the one we have, yes. That's 391. Please concentrate on

14 that one.

15 Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.

16 MR. HARMON:

17 Q. Now, you said in your testimony, Mr. Cengic, one of these

18 documents was not received in the regular course of business. Which

19 document was not received in the regular course of business? The one with

20 the 20 signatures or --

21 A. The other one.

22 MR. HARMON: That would be 390, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is 390, the one with the stamp and two

24 signatures at the bottom dated 27th of December, 1991. Please proceed.

25 MR. HARMON:

1 Q. Now, very quickly, Mr. Cengic, in respect of Prosecution Exhibit

2 391, the proposal to impeach you, were you impeached?

3 A. No, I wasn't.

4 Q. Now, let's turn to the next intercept, if we can. This is the

5 intercept that is found, Your Honours, at tab 7. It is an intercept --

6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, before we turn to the next intercept,

7 we observe that there wasn't a single question apparently asked in

8 relation to the previous intercept. It was played for about five minutes

9 and we were not aware that any question was actually put to the witness.

10 So we're wondering what the precise purpose is or justification for

11 playing intercepts if a question is not actually going then to be

12 addressed to the witness.

13 MR. HARMON: Well, Your Honour, my response is this: This

14 intercept that we just played is dated -- was dated December 26th. It is

15 an intercept that Mr. Krajisnik says he had been down in Novi Grad all

16 night. He refers to problems. We have two letters at or about the same

17 time that come to Mr. Cengic, one of which complains, and there is a

18 threat to establish their own Serbian municipality. The other is a

19 document that threatens to impeach Mr. Cengic. The Court obviously can

20 make whatever inferences it wishes from those three exhibits.

21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we still don't quite follow. The

22 witness wasn't a party to the conversation that the intercept represents.

23 It's, in a sense, nothing then to do with him directly. He's not asked

24 any questions at all about it. It's got, in a sense, nothing to do with

25 this witness. We've indicated before that we, if invited to agree that

1 it's Mr. Krajisnik's voice on a tape and somebody else's voice on a tape,

2 we probably wouldn't have any major difficulty with that. And then

3 intercepts of genuine conversations speak for themselves. But if no

4 question at all is going to be addressed to a witness there is no

5 justification for introducing it in the course of his evidence.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, the Chamber considers it in the

8 following way: This is an intercept, one among more intercepts, in

9 relation to which the witness has identified at least many speakers, not

10 all of them, but at least in each conversation one or more of the

11 speakers. The Chamber understands the playing of the intercept on which

12 the voices of Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Karadzic have been identified by the

13 witness, the playing of this intercept for a better understanding of the

14 Chamber of other documents that are tendered by Mr. Harmon does more or

15 less emphasise the importance of this intercept, of this telephone

16 conversation, in relation to the developments in the local commune of

17 Rajlovac. And the Chamber thinks -- is of the opinion that this is

18 admissable.

19 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could we then make a supplementary

20 observation that we still raise the question whether it's necessary to

21 play the whole of this intercept which went on way beyond the linking

22 point that Mr. Harmon sought to establish. With this additional

23 observation, Your Honour, that so far as any value of the transcript in

24 English and French appearing, so far as that value is concerned, it's

25 seriously diminished by the almost incomprehensibility of the text on the

1 transcript because it doesn't break it up between one speaker and

2 another. There's just a continuous run on the transcript. So that's of

3 no real value. So we do question -- it's virtually incomprehensible,

4 Your Honour, when one reads the transcript in English and I assume that

5 French speakers, although at least as intelligent as English speakers

6 would still have the same difficulty. So, Your Honour, we really question

7 the value of playing pages and pages and pages or minutes and minutes and

8 minutes of a tape.

9 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, let me respond to that. Because this

10 intercept more specifically deals with what this witness, his testimony

11 about the Rajlovac commune. But let me answer Mr. Stewart. Because in

12 part of the indictment, as Your Honours are aware, we -- one of the

13 portions of the allegation are there was a close relationship between the

14 two and because of those associations, there was certain power to

15 Mr. Krajisnik. Specifically, on page 4 of the English transcript of this

16 indictment [sic], there is evidence that's relevant to that as well. And

17 I'm referring to Mr. Karadzic, where he says: "Yes, yes, you know when

18 the two of us think the same." Krajisnik says: "Yes." Karadzic says:

19 "You and I think the same when we speak and everything." And Krajisnik

20 says: "Yes."

21 So there are other portions of this intercept that I think it is

22 important for the Court to hear. I think it's important for the Court to

23 hear the voices, the relationship, the tone between these two people.

24 More specifically, this witness, and my concern with this witness dealt

25 with the portions of it that are on page 1 that dealt with Mr. Krajisnik

1 being in Novi Grad at or about the time these letters are received. But I

2 think these -- playing these intercepts in their totality, a selected

3 number of them, is important for the Court because the Court can get

4 information that also relates to other parts of the indictment.

5 JUDGE ORIE: So you'd say part of the intercept, not indictment,

6 as you said, I think, but part of the intercept is of direct relevance for

7 the testimony of this witness, whereas other parts, you play them in order

8 to draw the attention of the Court on those parts of a conversation

9 of -- that, according to this witness, has been a conversation between

10 Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Karadzic.

11 MR. HARMON: Correct.

12 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, that sort of answers the

13 question, because our question, which was really what's a lot of this got

14 to do with this particular witness. The answer seems to be clear,

15 absolutely nothing at all. If it's being frankly said, well, it hasn't

16 got anything to do with this witness but we'd just like at this point to

17 play it to the Trial Chamber and put it in evidence for what it's worth,

18 then at least we understand what's going on. But let's not delude

19 ourselves that most of it has got anything to do with the particular

20 witness. And we've had this many, many times in the course of this case.

21 We then raise the question, Your Honour, whether it would be better if the

22 Prosecution want to put a whole lot of transcripts before the Trial

23 Chamber for its information if it was done in a way that made them -- made

24 them comprehensible to any later reader of the transcript. Because what

25 anybody reading the transcript in future is going to have to find the

1 original transcript of the conversation in order to make any sense at all

2 of the transcript.

3 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, what makes sense and what makes not

4 sense sometimes is only to be judged after you've heard the whole of the

5 evidence. We now do understand that Mr. Harmon puts part of this

6 transcript in relation to evidence not coming from this witness.

7 Mr. Harmon is, to some extent, allowed to choose to use the time that is

8 allotted to him in the way he wants to do that. I would allow Mr. Harmon

9 now to proceed, the matter having been clarified.

10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could I just make clear what I meant

11 when I said it didn't make sense. I'm not making the point that then in

12 the overall context of the evidence the content of the particular

13 conversation might not make sense fitting in. I'm making the rather more

14 practical point that really, Your Honour, I defy anybody to make much

15 sense of a stream of transcript of an interview where there's absolutely

16 no break between one speaker and another when, necessarily, the same

17 interpreter is speaking and it's simply going onto the transcript as a

18 sort of stream of consciousness.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. The Chamber does understand

20 your observation in this respect, that it might not be easy to identify

21 who exactly is speaking at what moment. At the same time, where the -- it

22 becomes clear from this evidence those words, apart from who exactly at

23 any specific moment spoke what word exactly, at least it's a conversation

24 between two gentlemen that have been identified, and the subject, of

25 course, I wouldn't say becomes in every respect clear but at least the

1 subject is known from this transcript.

2 MR. STEWART: May I simply add, we really do express concern,

3 Your Honour, that my client, who is on trial here for genocide and other

4 crimes, that what he says should be more carefully distinguished from what

5 somebody else says. Your Honour's observation that two gentlemen are

6 having a conversation, that really isn't good enough, with respect, to

7 have it absolutely clear and absolutely clear on the transcript.

8 Otherwise we're suggesting it's a waste of time to go through this

9 exercise, if the public transcript does not then make it clear what is

10 said by Mr. Krajisnik who is on trial and what is said by somebody else.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Even if not every single word could be allocated to

13 one of the speakers, that doesn't mean that such a conversation between

14 two gentlemen identified would have no evidentiary value at all,

15 Mr. Stewart. If you say that the evidentiary value of a conversation

16 where it's clear what words are exactly spoken by what person, I would

17 easily agree with you that the evidentiary value would be higher, but that

18 doesn't mean that if not every word is clear in the mouth of one of the

19 persons, that the evidentiary value of such a conversation and of a

20 transcript of that conversation is completely lost.

21 Mr. Harmon, you may proceed.

22 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honours, I'm going to

23 be playing another intercept. This is found at tab 7. This intercept is

24 three minutes and 56 seconds long and it is an intercept from February of

25 1992. If we could listen to that, please.

1 [Intercept played]

2 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

3 "Momcilo KRAJISNIK: So knackered, you cannot imagine.

4 Radovan KARADZIC: So he's resting or what?

5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: He's not. He's gone down to Reljevo. So down

6 there, people... I'm right, it's a fantastic idea. It's a big

7 territory. They want to establish Rajlovac municipality as it used to be,

8 you know.

9 Radovan KARADZIC: Uh-huh.

10 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: That's a big territory, so then people want

11 you to sit down with them. I stayed until late last night and I had to go

12 to the Constitutional Commission, so I asked Milos to go. I can't -- but

13 Milos Savic --

14 Radovan KARADZIC: Ours, Milos Savic, the constitutional one?

15 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Uh-huh. So he went to have a bit of a look,

16 but in any case, we agreed. I thought I'd see what's up with you.

17 Radovan KARADZIC: Uh-huh. You see, that's good. We should

18 only -- I should only give you a bit more of advice. I went to see Branko

19 down there last night, but I didn't find him. I found some others, so now

20 he's come to see me.

21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Which Branko?

22 Radovan KARADZIC: Simic.

23 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Uh-huh. That's what you wanted? No?

24 Radovan KARADZIC: I stayed until late, until 3.00. I actually

25 came at 3.00.

1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And you didn't meet anyone?

2 Radovan KARADZIC: I did, but not Branko.

3 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Uh-huh. And you didn't find Branko. You

4 didn't --

5 Radovan KARADZIC: I found some others.

6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Uh-huh.

7 Radovan KARADZIC: It was very interesting and useful.

8 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Was it? Well, I'm very glad.

9 Radovan KARADZIC: It was even more radical and stuff.

10 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Well, I'm very glad that it's all right.

11 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, yes.

12 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: So Branko is not there, is he?

13 Radovan KARADZIC: He's just come to see me.

14 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Ah, well, nice.

15 Radovan KARADZIC: Hmmm.

16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right. It needs to be discussed and

17 agreed on.

18 Radovan KARADZIC: All right.

19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: So what else is new?

20 Radovan KARADZIC: Nothing else.

21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Good. That's the most important thing, isn't

22 it?

23 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, yes, that's the most important thing.

24 That's what -- today, I think.

25 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, yes.

1 Radovan KARADZIC: Will be much more significant and --

2 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right, I'll see you tomorrow. I just

3 thought I'd call to see what's new.

4 Radovan KARADZIC: All right. What's there tomorrow?

5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Huh?

6 Radovan KARADZIC: What's there tomorrow?

7 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Nothing. We'll talk a bit tomorrow to see,

8 you know. We have to decide about the Council of Municipalities, so we'll

9 find some sort of a method. But I think that it must if they agree

10 because, you see, I don't know what that Barac, Bakrac, what's his name,

11 Barac doing?

12 Radovan KARADZIC: Yeah.

13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Did you listen to him?

14 Radovan KARADZIC: From Zenica, right?

15 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yeah.

16 Radovan KARADZIC: Forget about him. He's talking rubbish.

17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: No, no. He says they will go, but he says,

18 because the question is changed.

19 Radovan KARADZIC: They, they are changing it.

20 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Hmmm?

21 Radovan KARADZIC: They are changing it.

22 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yeah, I'm not clear about that.

23 Radovan KARADZIC: I'll see you, and when I do, we'll have a

24 word.

25 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right. Say hi to Branko.

1 Radovan KARADZIC: Okay.

2 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Bye.

3 Radovan KARADZIC: Cheers."

4 "Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Hey, Radovan.

5 Radovan KARADZIC: Eh?

6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Nikola says that he wilL -- that we should go

7 up there, but there's horrible fog. I think that he's on his way here,

8 but he won't be able to come.

9 Radovan KARADZIC: Come where?

10 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Did he speak to you now?

11 Radovan KARADZIC: He did. I told him to check with you, but I

12 don't know what will -- tonight -- do we have to -- yes.

13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: There's nothing. I thought he said that he

14 told you that he had to come.

15 Radovan KARADZIC: No, no. I told him to check with you to --

16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: There's no reason.

17 Radovan KARADZIC: I thought I should see what we'll do.

18 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Right. There's no reason, dear God. He asked

19 me something. He said that we should meet. I thought it was an

20 emergency.

21 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, yes.

22 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: But it looks like it's not. He won't be able

23 to come? There's terrible fog.

24 Radovan KARADZIC: And where would he like to go? To come to my

25 place?

1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yeah, yeah. Didn't you agree with him?

2 Radovan KARADZIC: No. I told him to agree with you, if there's a

3 point, to check the concept or something.

4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Well, nothing.

5 Radovan KARADZIC: Eh?

6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: What do we have to do tomorrow, isn't that?

7 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, yes, yes.

8 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: But there -- that's what I want to tell you,

9 so I thought I couldn't come, because there's horrible fog.

10 Radovan KARADZIC: Did you see the news?

11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I did.

12 Radovan KARADZIC: Did you see what they --?

13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I don't know what that is, if we are for

14 independent.

15 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, but they are for changing the question of

16 the three things, three nations, that is, the three entities and so on.

17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yeah, yeah, that's good.

18 Radovan KARADZIC: And they are asking for Croatian citizenship.

19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, yes, yes.

20 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, yes.

21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: That's great. Is that the whole? That means

22 all Croats, right?

23 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, yes.

24 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: That's great. It will probably ask the

25 Assembly. What will it want?

1 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes. Well, I think we'll talk.

2 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right. There.

3 Radovan KARADZIC: Right.

4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Let me tell you, I'm very sorry if he's left.

5 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes.

6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: But I don't know. If he comes, it's stupid

7 for us to meet. Something's on his mind, you know.

8 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes.

9 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I thought, by God, I've just spoken to him and

10 he didn't say anything.

11 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, yes.

12 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: He blew it up a bit, but let me tell you, I

13 can't wait to -- this fog, it's horrible.

14 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, I'll tell him now, if he's on his way.

15 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: He isn't. I called him at home.

16 Radovan KARADZIC: He hasn't left yet?

17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: He's not there, but he won't be able to come.

18 My aunt paid for the taxi. She says it went?

19 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, yes.

20 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Eh?

21 Radovan KARADZIC: All right.

22 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: In any case, we shouldn't meet. I'll see you

23 tomorrow.

24 Radovan KARADZIC: All right. If he comes, he'll have a cup of

25 coffee and that's it. And I'll see you tomorrow, right.

1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Right."

2 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, before I proceed with the questions in

3 respect of this intercept, I noticed that the translation of this, I refer

4 to Your Honours to page 60, line 20, has more words in it than the

5 intercept translation that we have tendered. So I will go back to the

6 language assistants and ask them to listen to it once again. I'm

7 referring specifically to the third box from the top on page 1 of the

8 English translation, where it says "he's not -- he's gone down to Reljevo.

9 So down there people... I'm right? is an idea." And if you look at page

10 60, line 20, you'll see it's slightly different translation with the

11 addition of the word fantastic. So I need to go back and check this

12 translation of this intercept, and if this is incomplete, then I will

13 tender a new document. But I can proceed with my questions on this

14 nevertheless.

15 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could we also observe that it seems to

16 us clearly to be two conversations. There's a break in the middle. Where

17 it says continuation in the middle of the transcript that we've got --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Would you clarify that, Mr. Harmon.

19 MR. STEWART: That's what we're inviting, Your Honour. Thank you.

20 MR. HARMON:

21 Q. Let me ask you now, Mr. Cengic. This is an intercept from

22 February, and let me read a portion of this to you and then I'm going to

23 ask you a question. I'm referring to the top of the third box. I will

24 start my reading with Mr. Krajisnik on page 1, part of the way through:

25 "Big territory. They want to establish Rajlovac municipality as it used

1 to be, you know." Karadzic says: "Uh-huh." And Krajisnik says: "That's

2 a big territory, so then people want you to sit down with them. I stayed

3 until late last night and I had to go to the constitutional commission so

4 I asked Milos to go. I can't ... That's Milos Savic." Karadzic: "Ours,

5 the constitutional one?" Krajisnik: "Uh-huh. So he went to have a bit

6 of a look, but in any case, we agreed. I thought I'd see what's up with

7 you."

8 Now, first of all, do you know who Milos Savic is?

9 A. I don't.

10 Q. Okay. In February -- well, let me ask you: By February, had the

11 situation in respect of the new separate commune been resolved?

12 A. No.

13 Q. All right. If we could turn to the next intercept, then.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, before we continue, may I take it that

15 the continuation issue, the one or two conversations, that you have no

16 immediate clarification but that we'll hear from you?

17 MR. HARMON: Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: When do you expect to --

19 MR. HARMON: As soon as I have. By Wednesday. I will see if I

20 can resolve this very quickly.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

22 MR. HARMON: If we could play the next intercept, Your Honour.

23 I'm referring to the intercept that is in tab 8 of your binders. And this

24 is a conversation, Your Honours, that is dated February the 22nd, 1992.

25 And one of the speakers is a gentleman by the name of Mr. Karadzic. The

1 other speaker, if I turn to the -- if we can just have a moment. The only

2 voice that was recognised by this witness was Mr. Karadzic's voice. If we

3 could play that intercept, please.

4 [Intercept played]

5 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

6 "Ljubo GRKOVIC: For disturbing you. Are we going to print all

7 the flyers or are we going to send some out to the regions?

8 Radovan KARADZIC: And where will they print? Once we agree that

9 the cheapest thing is to print?

10 Ljubo GRKOVIC: All right. I mean, I found everything here and

11 the preparationS are over. We could start printing tonight and have

12 everything ready tomorrow.

13 Radovan KARADZIC: We need to check. We need to check once again

14 how much it costs. Going out there means helping --

15 Ljubo GRKOVIC: Them?

16 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, helping them to create a sovereign

17 independent Bosnia and Herzegovina in which we would be slaves. The Serbs

18 won't participate, won't vote. The flyer seems good to me, but I can't

19 remember --?

20 Ljubo GRKOVIC: Yes, yes, some correction may be necessary.

21 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, yes.

22 Ljubo GRKOVIC: When I bring them, will you have a look at them?

23 One copy has already been made.

24 Radovan KARADZIC: Printed, right?

25 Ljubo GRKOVIC: Yes.

1 Radovan KARADZIC: Please bring a copy.

2 Ljubo GRKOVIC: I'll do that later. I've just arrived from

3 Reljevo. We established a municipality down there, do you know that?

4 Radovan KARADZIC: Uh-huh.

5 Ljubo GRKOVIC: In Rajlovac. I was there and Joja. It was nice.

6 Radovan KARADZIC: Uh-huh.

7 Ljubo GRKOVIC: So in an hour or two I might ...

8 Radovan KARADZIC: How many inhabitants will it have? That'll be

9 in Rajlovac, right?

10 Ljubo GRKOVIC: It will be called Rajlovac Serb municipality and

11 it includes Reljevo and everything up till Vogosca and Ilijas, and over

12 here up to Osijek and the television.

13 Radovan KARADZIC: Does it include Vogosca Serb municipality or

14 not?

15 Ljubo GRKOVIC: No, Vogosca will be different.

16 Radovan KARADZIC: Uh-huh.

17 Ljubo GRKOVIC: Vogosca will be a second unit. This goes up to

18 Vogosca, right down to Joja's house.

19 Radovan KARADZIC: And then all the way to Ilijas, right?

20 Ljubo GRKOVIC: This way it includes Gras, around the television,

21 but it doesn't include the television. Then it goes down towards

22 Odzakovici and so.

23 Radovan KARADZIC: And these are all Serb areas, right?

24 Ljubo GRKOVIC: Yes, a large area. Not densely populated, but a

25 large area.

1 Radovan KARADZIC: Uh-huh. Good.

2 Ljubo GRKOVIC: You'll be at home, right?

3 Radovan KARADZIC: I will, I will.

4 Ljubo GRKOVIC: Okay, I'll drop by in an hour or two.

5 Radovan KARADZIC: Okay, I may be sleeping then. It would be

6 better if saw each other around six.

7 Ljubo GRKOVIC: I can, I can fax it to you so you can look at it.

8 Radovan KARADZIC: All right, all right.

9 Ljubo GRKOVIC: Is that, is that 32?

10 Radovan KARADZIC: It is.

11 Ljubo GRKOVIC: 029.

12 Radovan KARADZIC: I'll see you. Cheers.

13 Ljubo GRKOVIC: All the best, Doctor."

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, I take it that you make a similar comment

15 on the completeness of the transcript in the third box. No, I think in

16 the second box there's something about costs which doesn't appear in the

17 transcript.

18 MR. HARMON: We'll check that as well, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Possible, of course, a possible explanation might be

20 that our interpreters do even hear better than those who made the

21 transcript of this intercept. Please proceed.

22 MR. HARMON:

23 Q. Mr. Cengic, this is a conversation between Radovan Karadzic and

24 Ljubo Grkovic. Do you know who Mr. Grkovic is?

25 A. No, I don't know him.

1 Q. Now, this particular intercept, this conversation was intercepted

2 on February 22nd, 1992. On the 29th of February and the 1st of March,

3 1992, there was a referendum in which the citizens of Bosnia were asked if

4 they were in favour of a sovereign and independent Bosnia and Herzegovina;

5 is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that is correct.

7 Q. So according to this conversation, the municipality, the Serb

8 municipality of Rajlovac, was established at least in principle by

9 February 22nd. Were you aware of that fact?

10 A. No, I was not. But if I may, I should like to comment a portion

11 of this conversation where it is indicated that the area is not densely

12 populated, that there are not many inhabitants living there. Now, I have

13 heard this conversation for the first time these days, but now I am able

14 to understand it better. The fact that they counted the population,

15 although that number was not precise, in light of that, I can claim that

16 there is over 20.000 inhabitants living in the area. And more than 70 per

17 cent of them are Bosniak. The area described here includes several local

18 communes, Reljevo, Rajlovac, and also a number of other local communes

19 that are not specifically mentioned but are included in the area, such as

20 Brijesce, Boljakov Potok, Buca Potok, Dolac. So if one should take into

21 account all of this information, we can conclude that there is a large

22 number of people living there, the majority of whom were Bosniak.

23 Q. Mr. Cengic, let me turn my attention to a different subject, and

24 that is this: Are you aware of Mr. Krajisnik coming to the municipality

25 of Novi Grad; and if so, under what circumstances are you aware?

1 A. The offices of all parties represented in the parliament, those

2 who had their representatives in the Municipal Assembly, were located in

3 the town hall, and the municipal building. I was from time to time

4 informed of those meetings, and it is my impression that Mr. Krajisnik was

5 very often the guest of the SDS offices in the town hall, that he often

6 went there.

7 Q. Was it reported to you that he appeared at the town hall by

8 others?

9 A. It is customary for the employees of the town hall, when they

10 finish their work for the day, for a record to be taken of the people

11 entering and leaving the building. Those who are not employees of the

12 town hall. And such information should have been kept by the janitor.

13 But it was also from time to time that the SDA people informed me of that

14 fact, because they had an office in the immediate vicinity to their

15 office. I didn't ascribe much importance to these visits at the time, but

16 I took note of them.

17 Q. And let me put these visits in context, because my question was a

18 little imprecise. When I asked you if he had come to the municipality

19 frequently, I'm talking about the period before the commencement of the

20 war. Do you understand that, and would your answer be the same?

21 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, of course. Before the war. No. Before the war

22 began, he never -- he no longer came. But up to the commencement of the

23 war. Because after the war, that was controlled by the government of

24 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25 Q. Let me direct your attention to another intercept, Mr. Cengic.

1 This is found at tab 3. This is an intercept from the date of 8 November,

2 1991. This intercept is 5 minutes and 9 seconds long.

3 [Intercept played]

4 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

5 "Radovan KARADZIC: Okay. What are you doing?

6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Well, to tell you the truth, a little bit of

7 everything and so forth.

8 Radovan KARADZIC: I barely got up this morning, could hardly get

9 up.

10 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Well, one gets tired. Last night my legs

11 hurt. Fuck it. I could only lean my legs against the wall.

12 Radovan KARADZIC: Me too, but it's from the tension. I felt

13 slightly responsible; not slightly but a lot, you know.

14 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I can tell you that yesterday you were not in

15 form. I saw that earlier. You had some -- you know, you were -- you were

16 tense.

17 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, yes, you're right.

18 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes.

19 Radovan KARADZIC: Because I was considerably concerned as to

20 whether it would succeed. I was considerably worried. I cannot rely on

21 Jovo entirely.

22 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I know, you can't rely on anyone.

23 Radovan KARADZIC: You can't rely on anyone and then you know.

24 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I can tell you, you were not in form.

25 Radovan KARADZIC: I wasn't. That wasn't how I really speak; I

1 speak better.

2 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes.

3 Radovan KARADZIC: But I think it's important that it didn't fall

4 beyond certain standards.

5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right. I hope that it wasn't bad. Only

6 Yutel, fuck them, they took out all those inserts, you know.

7 Radovan KARADZIC: That's right, that's right.

8 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And so it goes.

9 Radovan KARADZIC: That's right. But they're basically not bad, I

10 can tell you.

11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Is that right?

12 Radovan KARADZIC: I watched Yutel. It basically isn't bad.

13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yeah.

14 Radovan KARADZIC: I don't know how it was presented on the third

15 programme.

16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I didn't watch.

17 Radovan KARADZIC: On the third programme, news programme.

18 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I didn't watch anything, so I have no idea.

19 Radovan KARADZIC: Ljilja says it was short, there was no --

20 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Well, yes. First they cut 20 minutes and then

21 15. You know that shortens it.

22 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, yes. Now, look here, tonight there will

23 be something on the news. We have a time slot.

24 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes.

25 Radovan KARADZIC: We have 5 minutes. Ekmecic isn't there. Do

1 you want to appear, to explain it?

2 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Well, I can do it. It's not a problem.

3 Radovan KARADZIC: And Aco is going somewhere else. I don't know

4 where he's going. Aco is going to Yutel.

5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: What I wanted to do is, I wanted to be

6 completely angry at them.

7 Radovan KARADZIC: At whom? The television?

8 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: The television?

9 Radovan KARADZIC: All right, but don't. Your cheerfulness should

10 come to the fore, because of our people, you know.

11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right, I will if you think so, but I

12 thought that I would remain until the end.

13 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, but we'll take advantage of things, you

14 know.

15 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes.

16 Radovan KARADZIC: We must take advantage of it.

17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Who is the editor?

18 Radovan KARADZIC: Of this evening's news?

19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes.

20 Radovan KARADZIC: I have no idea.

21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right, I will --

22 Radovan KARADZIC: You know what would be very important, for you

23 to make an appearance and Aco will go to Yutel. Aco, has he been in touch

24 with you?

25 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: He hasn't. He'll probably call me.

1 Radovan KARADZIC: You know what? We anticipate that our people

2 are thinking about now, it would be necessary to influence their opinion.

3 So don't say anywhere that you are afraid. On the contrary.

4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: No, no it's out of the question. What Biljana

5 said was not all right. That is...

6 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, yes.

7 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I didn't agree with that at all.

8 Radovan KARADZIC: On the contrary; that is a democratic way of

9 voicing our opinion. This is the only way to preserve peace, so everyone

10 can say what they are in favour of. You're intelligent. You will do it.

11 Just stay cheerful and triumphant. Do you understand?

12 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Of course, certainly. I saw how much that

13 means to people. People don't like it when you tell them that their state

14 is happy. They'd rather die than...

15 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, yes. Just be cheerful and triumphant.

16 There's no other way.

17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: That's right.

18 Radovan KARADZIC: And...

19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right, I will. But where is Ekmecic? He

20 is gone.

21 Radovan KARADZIC: I think he's gone. But you, I think it would

22 be a good thing if you were to...

23 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I will. There's no problem.

24 Radovan KARADZIC: I'll call you, but let him call them, and then

25 you need to say don't. You know what else: Citizens do not need to think

1 at all about polling stations. Let them vote wherever they are. Let them

2 vote wherever they are with just a personal identity card. It can be done

3 in a local commune, it can be done in a village if someone is away for the

4 weekend. Everything acceptable, only just let them vote.

5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I'll see now with that fellow that there is a

6 bit more -- that simply, now I'll call that fellow, only I don't know who

7 the editor is. Can Ljubo check it out and let me know?

8 Radovan KARADZIC: He can. I think so.

9 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Let him see who he is, who it is. You know, I

10 wouldn't want to do this intentionally. Let them inform them that I'll

11 come and then I'll get in touch with them.

12 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, yes. Maybe you will get a bit more space

13 to explain what the goals are and that the Muslims and Croats should come

14 out and that it's not -- no one's going anywhere. They say like you're

15 going in Bosnia. No one's going anywhere. It's only a question of how we

16 will arrange things so we can live with each other, live next to each

17 other, and how we will manage our affairs.

18 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, certainly I will. There's no problem. I

19 think I will take it and go. Only tell me: What was your impression last

20 night?

21 Radovan KARADZIC: I think that it was all right. Essentially, it

22 was all right. I mean, I can be dissatisfied with my form, but everything

23 else was excellent. Right, right basically, essentially it was

24 excellent. I can tell you because you saw how the public reacts, you

25 know.

1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Well, yes, that's the main thing. I hope that

2 is all right.

3 Radovan KARADZIC: Right, right.

4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: We must get ready tomorrow and organise

5 everything well so that everything turns out all right.

6 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes. The press centre down there and up there

7 and the polling-stations and so forth.

8 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Will there be a press centre?

9 Radovan KARADZIC: The press centre is in the Holiday Inn.

10 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: You will vote tomorrow at 11.00, right?

11 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes.

12 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I said I would go over to Zabrdje to see what

13 was going on. What is it, a journalist? Is that right?

14 Radovan KARADZIC: You'll vote in Zabrdje, right?

15 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I'm supposed to do it in Zabrdje.

16 Radovan KARADZIC: All right.

17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I will organise things for my people so that

18 it turns out the right way.

19 Radovan KARADZIC: All right. That's okay.

20 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: You're at home?

21 Radovan KARADZIC: No, I'm not. I'm at the clinic.

22 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right. We'll be in touch.

23 Radovan KARADZIC: Okay.

24 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I'll go over there.

25 Radovan KARADZIC: All right.

1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Goodbye.

2 Radovan KARADZIC: Bye."

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, I tried to follow the French translation.

4 I think we have to pay specific attention to the French translation. It

5 goes so quick that I got the impression, but of course I can't check it on

6 paper because I have no French transcript, that sometimes not every single

7 line could be translated in due time. So we have to find a solution for

8 that so that we have a complete French transcript. May I ask the French

9 interpreters whether my impression is true.

10 Yes. It is confirmed to me by the French interpreters that my

11 impression was right. So we have to pay specific attention to that. But

12 that's not a reason at this moment not to continue. But I just wanted to

13 have that on the record.

14 Mr. Harmon, perhaps you first put questions in relation to this

15 transcript to the witness and then stop for a break.

16 MR. HARMON: Yes.

17 Q. Two questions, Mr. Cengic. You recognise -- do you

18 recognise -- did you -- you have already recognised the voices of

19 Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik in this intercept; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. This intercept is dated on the 8th of November, 1991. It is

22 correct, is it not, Mr. Cengic, that on the 9th and the 10th of November,

23 1991, there was a Bosnian Serb plebiscite in which question was asked

24 whether the voters wished to stay in the joint state of Yugoslavia; is

25 that correct?

1 A. Yes. That was the plebiscite in question, or rather, the

2 conversation concerns the plebiscite.

3 MR. HARMON: I have no further questions about this particular

4 intercept, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll have a break until 5 minutes past 6.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 6.11 p.m.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, please escort the witness into the

9 courtroom. Meanwhile, I can explain to the parties that we start a bit

10 late because the translation issue was of some concern, because it now

11 turned out that not only the French interpreters could not follow the

12 speed of the English text, which they have in writing in front of them,

13 but even that the English interpreters were not always able to pronounce

14 all the words that they hear in B/C/S version. So, therefore, some of the

15 text is missing. And we have to find a solution for that, Mr. Harmon, but

16 you might be approached for that problem one of these days.

17 MR. HARMON: I already have, Your Honour, and I'm going to meet

18 tomorrow morning with people from the language service section to try to

19 find a solution that would be satisfactory to everybody in the courtroom.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please be aware that I gave a call to

21 Mr. Pimentel, who is finally responsible for transcripts, I think, and I

22 also discussed the matter with at least some of the translators involved

23 today. Please proceed.

24 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

25 Q. Mr. Cengic, let me ask you: Based on your contacts with

1 Mr. Krajisnik before the war, your contact with Serbs in the community

2 both before and during the war, and your knowledge of Mr. Krajisnik in the

3 other communities, Bosniak and Croat communities, where would you rank

4 Mr. Krajisnik in the hierarchy of the Bosnian Serb leadership?

5 A. In my opinion and the opinion of my friends, Mr. Krajisnik and

6 Mr. Karadzic are at the same level within this hierarchy, whereas all the

7 others are far away from them in the line, far down the line.

8 Q. And where -- at what level are they in that hierarchy, in your

9 opinion?

10 A. They are the first.

11 Q. Let me turn my attention to another time period, and that is the

12 time period after the Dayton Peace Accords. Following the signing of the

13 Dayton peace agreements, Mr. Cengic, did you have an opportunity to go to

14 the Rajlovac municipality and did you meet with Serbs from that community?

15 A. The German department of the UNPROFOR made it possible for me, as

16 president of the Novi Grad municipality, to visit the then-Serb

17 municipality of Novi Grad and meet the citizens. Actually, I made a

18 mistake. It was the municipality of Rajlovac that I was referring to. So

19 I was to meet the inhabitants of the Rajlovac municipality in a building

20 that housed the distribution centre before the war. That's where at that

21 time the Rajlovac municipality structures were situated.

22 Q. Do you recall the approximate date when you had that meeting with

23 the Serbs from the Serb community of Rajlovac?

24 A. It was some two to three days before the actual integration was to

25 take place. I think it was the 26th of February.

1 Q. And do you remember with whom you met, by name, the individuals?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, if we are that far away, I'd rather have

3 a year. 26th of February of 1990 --?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992. Oh, rather, 1996, after

5 the --

6 JUDGE ORIE: February, immediately after the Dayton Agreement.

7 Yes.

8 Please proceed.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

10 MR. HARMON:

11 Q. Mr. Cengic, do you remember the names of the people with whom you

12 met, or some of the names of the people with whom you met?

13 A. I don't remember the names, because the meeting was a brief one.

14 We did introduce ourselves, but I cannot recall the names.

15 Q. What was the purpose of having this meeting, Mr. Cengic, and on

16 whose initiative was the meeting established?

17 A. To my knowledge, at the initiative of a group of Serbs who wanted

18 to remain there.

19 Q. Can you describe that meeting?

20 A. I myself, the chief of police, and UNPROFOR representatives

21 arrived there and were met by the representatives of the Serbs. We sat at

22 a table and discussed the future. And on that occasion, I promised that I

23 would do my best for those citizens of the Rajlovac municipality who

24 remained there to have their security ensured. And as for the general

25 logistics, support, support in general, that we would share the same

1 destiny, because the situation was very difficult in terms of food

2 supplies and the rest. It was the end of the war, and we hardly had

3 anything left. And I said that what we do or do not have, we are going to

4 share it all together.

5 Q. What did the representatives of the Serb community explain to you?

6 A. They said that they were willing to stay there but that, however,

7 they had Mr. Krajisnik's order that all of them had to move out, that they

8 had to take all of their belongings with them that they could take, so

9 that people went as far as taking windows and doors off their houses

10 together with them, and whatever could be taken from the factories was

11 actually taken at that point and whatever could not be taken was set on

12 fire. And here I'm referring to those Serbs who were leaving. Some of

13 the Serbs remained, and subsequently, they found themselves in a more

14 favourable position compared to the Serbs who had left and then returned,

15 because their houses were intact, whereas the Serbs who were leaving

16 destroyed their own houses themselves by dismantling doors and windows and

17 the rest. This way, very expensive equipment was taken from this area

18 that used to be very rich, from the aeroplane engines factory, Orao,

19 whatever could be taken from the distribution centre, from the bakery, the

20 local bakery, and other important plants, like, for instance, the Rajlovac

21 depot, was taken. And I emphasise that whatever could not be taken was

22 destroyed.

23 Q. Mr. Cengic, did you have an opportunity personally to hear

24 Mr. Krajisnik express views as to multi-ethnic life in Bosnia?

25 A. On several occasions, or rather, those of us in Sarajevo who were

1 lucky enough to have the electricity, we listened to the radio, and I

2 myself had personally on several occasions heard Karadzic express anger at

3 the fact that the agreement had been signed. And every time he did speak,

4 it was obvious that he recommended and even in a way threatened the

5 Serbian people that they had to leave the areas and even take the dead who

6 were buried there with them from these areas.

7 Q. Now, Mr. Cengic, the question that I asked you was: Did you have

8 an opportunity personally to hear Mr. Krajisnik express views as to

9 multi-ethnic life in Bosnia --

10 A. On the television.

11 Q. And -- Mr. Cengic, let me repeat what I said. My question to you

12 was: Did you have an opportunity personally to hear Mr. Krajisnik express

13 views as to multi-ethnic life in Bosnia. Your answer was: On several

14 occasions, or rather, those of us in Sarajevo who were lucky enough to

15 have electricity, we listened to the radio, and I myself had personally on

16 several occasions heard Karadzic express anger at the fact that the

17 agreement had been signed."

18 A. Krajisnik. Krajisnik.

19 Q. So what reads presently in your answer "Mr. Karadzic" should read

20 "Mr. Krajisnik"; is that your testimony?

21 A. Of course, of course, Krajisnik.

22 Q. Do you remember the approximate dates when you heard these

23 comments by Mr. Krajisnik?

24 A. This was mostly after the signing of the Dayton Peace Accords and

25 it was on a daily basis.

1 Q. Do you remember -- was this -- these comments that you heard, that

2 you attribute to Mr. Krajisnik, did you hear those on the radio, on the

3 television? What was the media source for those sorts of comments that

4 you recall?

5 A. It was SRNA, the Serbian information agency. And mostly on

6 television and sometimes on the radio as well.

7 Q. Mr. Cengic, I've concluded my examination. Thank you very much,

8 Your Honour s. I'm done.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.

10 Mr. Stewart, do I understand that you have agreed more or less

11 that you would start cross-examination tomorrow or would you rather start

12 now?

13 MR. STEWART: Of course I'm in the Trial Chamber's hands, but yes,

14 that's what we did discuss earlier, and we came to the conclusion that

15 shouldn't present any real difficulties as far as the overall timetable is

16 concerned.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, if you couldn't start, the Chamber would

19 accept that at this moment. On the other hand, in order to avoid whatever

20 risk, and it might be anything like the air-conditioning not functioning

21 tomorrow or whatever happens, the Chamber would really like to avoid, to

22 the extent possible, that we would not finish with the witnesses this

23 week. So the Chamber would prefer, and I say it in this way, that you'd

24 start your cross-examination now. But at the same time, sometimes one can

25 feel the difference in weight on invitations. I leave it up to you

1 whether you'd start now.

2 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour. I'm sorry. I didn't wish to

3 disguise the fact that I hadn't expected and am not ready to begin

4 cross-examination efficiently today. The estimate was four and a half

5 hours in chief here. So, Your Honour, I don't wish to be -- I don't wish

6 to disguise that in making that request.

7 JUDGE ORIE: So you not only have a preference to start tomorrow

8 but a very strong preference.

9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour could put it exactly that way and I

10 wouldn't disagree with that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: On the other hand, you may have noticed that, and

12 Mr. Harmon as well, that if tomorrow or the day after tomorrow the

13 air-conditioning would not function, this Chamber will certainly try a

14 solution to nevertheless finish with the witnesses of this week, whether

15 we have to find another courtroom or -- so we'll be stronger than usual in

16 finding solutions if your confidence would turn out to be not realistic.

17 I include all circumstances of life, not only that you are performing

18 under what we could expect, but whatever circumstance there will be there,

19 the Chamber will try to finish the three witnesses and at the same time

20 now follows your wish and allow you to start cross-examination tomorrow.

21 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. May I observe this,

22 Your Honour, that generally speaking cross-examinations that start first

23 thing at the beginning of a day finish at around the same time as

24 cross-examinations that start half an hour before the close of a day.

25 That's just a fact of life. They do tend to finish at the same time

1 anyway. So the time doesn't really get lost normally.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This observation is something the parties

3 should think over what the consequences are of this fact of life, because

4 it means that sometimes you can do an examination of a witness a bit

5 quicker if you have less time.

6 Mr. Cengic, we'll finish for the day. We'd like to see you back

7 tomorrow at a quarter past 2.00 in this same courtroom again. You'll then

8 be cross-examined by Mr. Stewart, counsel for the Defence. I instruct you

9 not to speak with anyone about the testimony you have given until now and

10 you're still about to give tomorrow.

11 We adjourn until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.30 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day of

14 November 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

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