1 Thursday, 31 March 2005

2 [The accused entered court]

3 [Open session]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would you

6 please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case

8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. We'll go briefly into

10 private session to hear any further submissions in relation to a request

11 for protective measures for Witness 382. After that, we'll continue with

12 the cross-examination of the witness who testifies in closed session, so

13 we'll first go into private session then move into closed session after

14 that until we finish the testimony of the present witness.

15 Ms. Loukas, could you please, after we have gone into private

16 session, would you then please make your submissions. It's not yet

17 confirmed on my screen.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Nor on mine, Your Honour.

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21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE ORIE: This is the decision of the Prosecution's motion for

23 protective measures for Witness 382. The motion, which is partly

24 confidential, was filed on the 29th of March of this year. Since the

25 witness was scheduled to testify today, the Defence met the Chamber's

1 request to respond earlier than it was entitled to under the Rules. The

2 Chamber heard the Defence's oral submissions yesterday, the 30th of March.

3 Pursuant to Rules 75 and 79 of the Tribunal's Rules of Procedure

4 and Evidence, the Prosecution seeks an order that a pseudonym be used when

5 referring to the witness in the proceedings and that the witness be

6 allowed to testify in open session with image distortion. The Prosecution

7 also requests that the witness be allowed to testify in private session

8 for those portions of his testimony which are reasonably likely to reveal

9 his identity. In an oral submission made in court this morning, the

10 Prosecution further requested that the witness be allowed to testify in

11 private session for those portions of his testimony dealing with sexual

12 assault. The Defence did not oppose this last request.

13 In the confidential annex to its motion, the Prosecution describes

14 the general security situation affecting the witness. The witness has

15 expressed fear for the safety of his family, both in and outside Bosnia,

16 if it becomes known that he has given evidence before the Tribunal. Among

17 other information provided, the Prosecution notes both the sensitivity of

18 aspects of the witness's testimony and the fact that the witness has been

19 subject to threats of a serious nature. The Prosecution also incorporates

20 by reference its submissions in relation to a recent UNHCR report, as set

21 out in a separate protective measures motion filed on the 11th of March,

22 2005. That report describes the current security situation affecting

23 persons who have given, or may give evidence before the Tribunal.

24 In its oral submissions, the Defence recalls that the burden rests

25 on the party seeking protective measures to justify why such measures

1 should be granted in each case. The Defence argued that the Prosecution

2 has not provided the detailed reasoning required for a grant of protective

3 measures and thus has failed to establish a sufficient basis for the

4 protective measures sought in this case.

5 The Trial Chamber has stated the law on protective measures in

6 three recent decisions, notably the decisions of the 20th of September,

7 2004, transcript page 5613 and following; the 9th of March, 2005,

8 transcript page 10192 and following; and the 21st of March, 2005,

9 transcript page 10821 and following.

10 The Chamber notes that the accused has a right to a fair and

11 public hearing and that proceedings before the Tribunal must be public

12 unless good cause is shown to the contrary. To justify protective

13 measures, it must be shown that should it become publicly known that the

14 witness has testified before this Tribunal, there is a real risk, the

15 existence of which is supported by some objective evidence, to the

16 security of the witness or his or her family. Moreover, it must be shown

17 that less restrictive measures would not deal adequately with the

18 legitimate concerns of the witness.

19 The Chamber has considered the submissions of the parties. It

20 finds that in the present case the Prosecution has established that the

21 witness and the witness's family face a real risk to their security if it

22 becomes known that the witness has testified before the Tribunal. The

23 Chamber makes this finding on the basis of the threats addressed to the

24 witness, the present location of the witness and his family members, and

25 the sensitivity of the witness's expected testimony.

1 The Chamber assesses the fear and the risks resulting from these

2 factors in the general context, that is, the climate in

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, which reportedly remains unfavourable to persons who

4 are resident there or who have family resident there and who wish to fully

5 discharge their duty to testify.

6 The Trial Chamber notes that the witness has requested to be able

7 to give evidence in private session only for those parts of his testimony

8 likely to reveal his identity and those parts dealing with sexual assault.

9 The requested protective measures, that is, pseudonym, image distortion,

10 and partial private session, strike a fair balance between the need to

11 protect the witness and the accused's right to a public trial.

12 Therefore, the Chamber grants the motion.

13 Since we still are in open session, I would like to ask you,

14 Mr. Gaynor, whether you'd like to start with the witness in private

15 session or ...

16 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, we can start in open session. We'll

17 briefly go into private session for some details about his background.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and I take it that the technicians are aware of

19 the fact that face distortion is effective and the face of the witness

20 will not be shown if he enters the courtroom.

21 Mr. Usher, could you please escort Witness 382 into the courtroom.

22 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, while the witness is being escorted into

23 the courtroom, I would indicate that my legal assistant, Ms. Kelly

24 Pitcher, is just outside doing some further work in relation to other

25 matters in the case but she will be returning at some point while this

1 session continues, and I just wanted to alert Your Honours to that because

2 apparently there is occasionally problems with security about which door

3 to be let into the courtroom and I just thought I'd alert the relevant

4 people to that aspect.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever she's kept for more than 24 hours in this

6 building, Ms. Loukas, you'll inform the President of this Chamber so that

7 I can assist in resolving these kinds of matters.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I should explain to you as well that the exhibits

10 from the last witness, we have not dealt with them yet. The reason for

11 that is that Ms. Philpott is ill today and we are assisted by different

12 representatives of the Registry and I'd rather deal with it when

13 Ms. Philpott is back who has prepared the numbers, et cetera, and I then

14 take it that Mr. Hannis will be informed about it, unless the parties are

15 already aware of objections/no objections so that even in the absence of

16 Mr. Hannis, we could deal with it.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I think it's always preferable to have

19 Ms. Philpott here for the exhibits.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Philpott, certainly, but I was talking about

21 then Mr. Hannis, yes.

22 WITNESS: Witness 382

23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Witness 382, because that's how we

25 will call you.

1 First of all, we would like to inform you that the Chamber just

2 has given a decision in which the request for protective measures are

3 granted, that is, that we will not call you by your own name but will use

4 the pseudonym, Witness 382; that the outside world cannot see your face

5 when you're testifying; and that some portions of your testimony will be

6 given in private session. That means the outside world will not have any

7 knowledge of the content of those portions of your testimony.

8 Before giving evidence in this court, the Rules of Procedure and

9 Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration that you will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text of this

11 declaration is now handed out to you by the usher. I would like to invite

12 you to make that solemn declaration.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Witness 382, please be seated.

16 Mr. Gaynor, you may proceed. I take it, from what I've seen, that

17 Rule 89(F) will be applied as well in this case.

18 MR. GAYNOR: That's correct, Your Honour. My proposal is to first

19 of all deal with the pseudonym sheets, a couple of details about his

20 background, and then to submit his statement.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We can do that in open session.

22 Please proceed.

23 Examined by Mr. Gaynor:

24 Q. Good morning, Mr. 382.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. 382, it's Mr. Gaynor who is going to put the

1 questions to you first.

2 MR. GAYNOR:

3 Q. Sir, the first thing we're going to do is show you a sheet of

4 paper with your name and your date of birth, and I'd just like you to

5 confirm with a simple yes or no whether that is your name and your date of

6 birth.

7 A. Yes, that is my name and date of birth.

8 MR. GAYNOR: I'd request that an exhibit number be assigned to

9 that.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P575 under seal.

11 MR. GAYNOR:

12 Q. I'm going to ask you a couple of details about your background.

13 MR. GAYNOR: For this reason, I'm going to ask, Your Honour, to

14 allow us to go into private session very briefly.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we go into private session.

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6 [Open session]

7 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, we propose to submit the statement of

8 this witness which he delivered to investigators of this Tribunal, and we

9 submit that pursuant to Rule 89(F). There are some redactions to this

10 statement and we will be asking the witness to expand on several aspects

11 contained in that statement.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, are you also going to tender the other

13 statement?

14 MR. GAYNOR: It's our intention not to tender the other statement,

15 Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because in a supplementary information sheet, I

17 saw something about a Bosnian statement, but I took it that you refer to

18 German statement rather than the Bosnian.

19 MR. GAYNOR: Correct, Your Honour. That was an error on my part.

20 That was the statement which he prepared.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

22 MR. GAYNOR: First of all, I would request that that statement be

23 given an exhibit number.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P576.

1 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Just prior to that, Your Honour, and just prior to

3 Mr. Gaynor proceeding, just before Your Honours came back into court I was

4 in the process of discussing one small redaction of one sentence, one

5 further redaction, and we hadn't completed our discussion, so I'm happy to

6 -- the evidence might proceed at this point, we can discuss that redaction

7 at some other point, but I just wanted to place that on the record.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would that prevent Mr. Gaynor from the 89(F)?

9 Mr. Gaynor, you are aware of what --

10 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, I think I know the redaction that Ms. Loukas is

11 referring to, and I have no objection to that redaction.

12 MS. LOUKAS: That certainly shortens the matter, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's try to concentrate now on the witness,

14 because I see that our procedural matters are a bit over his head and I'd

15 like to avoid that this witness gets the feeling that we talk over your

16 head, so we'll come as soon as possible to what you're really here for,

17 and that's for the testimony.

18 Please proceed.

19 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly, Your Honour.

20 MR. GAYNOR:

21 Q. Sir, as -- I will be asking you a few questions and I will be

22 asking you to expand on some matters which are not set out in that

23 statement, but before we come to that point, I'd like to ask you whether

24 you've had an opportunity to review that statement carefully in the past

25 few days.

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1 A. Yes, I have.

2 Q. And is that statement true and accurate to the best of your

3 knowledge and belief?

4 A. It is.

5 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, I propose now to read a summary of the

6 evidence contained in that statement, for the public.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps we explain to the witness, or did you do

8 that already prior to his appearance here?

9 Witness 382, since we are not going to ask you all the questions

10 about -- about the information that you have already given in your

11 statement, a summary is made so that the public, who doesn't see your face

12 but who can listen to what is said in this courtroom, knows what your

13 statement is about and therefore is better able to understand any

14 additional questions put to you on those subjects, and that's what

15 Mr. Gaynor is going to do at this moment.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

17 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 This witness is a Bosnian Muslim from the town of Rogatica in

19 Rogatica municipality.

20 In his written statement, the witness says that following the

21 outbreak of war in Croatia, JNA officers announced to Muslim reservists

22 who had appeared for military exercises that they were no longer needed

23 and were not to participate in any exercises in the future.

24 The witness describes an attempt by a large number of JNA soldiers

25 and officers to seize weapons held by the local Territorial Defence force

1 which had a Muslim commander. He also describes the formation of the

2 local Serb police force, and the distribution of weapons, at night, from a

3 JNA military truck to local Serbs.

4 The witness had known Rajko Kusic as a friend and as a colleague

5 for a number of years before the war. He worked for several years at the

6 same firm as Kusic. The witness says that after Kusic left his job, he

7 became commander of a paramilitary group. In mid-April 1992, the witness

8 met Rajko Kusic. The witness asked him what was going on. Kusic told him

9 that he and the JNA had to defend the Serbian people and Serbian land.

10 The witness saw artillery positions on the hillsides around

11 Rogatica. Around the 22nd of May, 1992, without warning, the shelling of

12 Rogatica began. The shelling lasted three or four hours that day. From a

13 vantage point, the witness was later able to see the areas damaged by

14 shelling and concluded that those who were carrying out the shelling were

15 targeting Muslim areas. Serb areas were not shelled.

16 The witness and other Muslims later fled to the centre of Rogatica

17 town for protection. Along the way, the witness saw APCs and tanks. The

18 witness says that there was no defence of Rogatica.

19 At the beginning of June, 1992, Zivojin Novakovic, a

20 representative of the VRS, made an announcement from an APC. He called

21 upon the Muslim residents of Rogatica to surrender and to proceed to the

22 Veljko Vlahovic school. Novakovic, who the witness knew, told the witness

23 that the town would be cleansed, that they all had to proceed to the

24 school, and that anyone found in the town would be killed.

25 Shells were fired to persuade the Muslims to go to the school.

1 Approximately 200 to 300 decided to go and surrender at the school. On

2 arrival at the school, the witness was taken away for questioning by Rajko

3 Kusic, who appeared to be in command of the camp at the school.

4 The witness and his family were detained at the school for three

5 and a half months. For the first month, the camp held about 400 people

6 who were mostly women and children. Many new detainees arrived, and the

7 camp eventually held about 1.100 people. Many were transported out, and

8 were told that they were going to Muslim territory.

9 While in detention, the witness says that detainees were subjected

10 to serious abuse. During interrogations, the witness was beaten and

11 tortured with pliers.

12 While detained at the school, the witness became aware that many

13 women, as well as girls as young as 13, were taken to other parts of the

14 camp and to other parts of Rogatica where they were raped by military men

15 and policemen. One soldier, who was a driver for Rajko Kusic, told the

16 witness that Serb soldiers were competing to see how many detainees they

17 could rape.

18 The witness spoke to Tomo Batinic, a Serb, who was president of

19 the Rogatica municipal Assembly. The witness asked Batinic what would

20 happen to them. Batinic told the witness that it was too late, that

21 everything would be destroyed.

22 At the school, guards forced detainees to sign papers stating that

23 they had voluntarily joined the Serbian Orthodox religion. The witness

24 states that groups of men were sometimes taken out and brought behind the

25 school. The witness would then hear shooting, and the men who had been

1 taken away would not return.

2 The witness states that about 30 men, three of whom were cousins

3 of the witness, were removed from the camp under the orders of Rajko

4 Kusic, and used as human shields. The witness heard that only two of the

5 men survived.

6 Q. Now, sir, I'm going to be asking you some questions on certain

7 parts of your statement.

8 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, I'm going to be going serially through

9 the statement and I will be directing Your Honours to the correct

10 paragraph numbers.

11 Q. Witness, for you it's not really necessary for you to consult your

12 statement; I'll describe the context.

13 In paragraph 9 of the witness's statement, sir, you said that

14 after the multi-party elections, you spoke to your friend, Rajko Kusic,

15 and he decided to leave his job, and you asked him why he was leaving.

16 What was his response to that question?

17 A. "Radovan pays me better."

18 Q. Did he explain who Radovan was?

19 A. Well, I knew, so I didn't ask which Radovan; the president of the

20 SDS, the Serb people.

21 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, I'm going to move now to the part of

22 the witness's statement which deals with the distribution of arms to local

23 Serbs, which is paragraph 14.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Just in relation to that last portion, I understood

25 that that last aspect was excised from the statement.

1 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, that is absolutely right, it was

2 excised, and it was excised for this reason: That I was going to ask the

3 witness to -- questions about that very excised portion, in accordance

4 with the guidance which we've received as to the procedure to be followed.

5 MS. LOUKAS: I'm glad that's been clarified, Your Honour. I

6 thought it had been excised for all purposes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could do the same; just first not to

8 concentrate that much on the text of paragraph 14 but first listen to the

9 testimony the witness elicits, and finally, if it is exactly the same,

10 then of course it's -- but I see that in the original, which is in front

11 of me, there's one portion deleted on page 3, second line, but 14 is still

12 in, Mr. Gaynor.

13 There are some other portions on page 8 deleted as well, redacted,

14 but 14 is in.

15 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Your Honour, if I might clarify the position.

16 Where there is a statement which goes to a matter which is clearly

17 -- well, frankly, which is fairly directly related to the Bosnian Serb

18 leadership, that has been excised as that goes to the core of this case.

19 Now, where there's a matter which is not of such critical importance, and

20 I wish to ask the question -- the witness further questions about the

21 matter, the -- there has been no excision; I'm going to ask the witness to

22 expand on what's already in the statement.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just see if we need it as a point of reference

24 in order to better understand the additional questions and we'll hear any

25 further objections against keeping it in, Ms. Loukas.

1 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour, I just wanted to clarify it

2 because it's excised in the exhibit that's before the Court and I thought

3 it was an excision for all purposes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: It's not excised. Paragraph 14, you're talking

5 about, is not excised in this one.

6 MR. GAYNOR: Correct, Your Honour. I think she's referring to

7 paragraph 9.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, I am, Your Honour. I'm referring to the

9 evidence that was just given.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, just given. Yes, I see that the last few words

11 of paragraph 9 is, so I'm a bit confused. The last few words of paragraph

12 9 have been taken out.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour, and that was the matter of which

14 Mr. Gaynor just asked questions, reintroducing the material that was

15 deleted.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --

17 MS. LOUKAS: Hence the source of my intervention.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I better understand because we're moving to 14

19 and now I better understand that we are back at 9.

20 MS. LOUKAS: Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Taking it out for reasons understandable under 92 bis

22 and 89(F), of course, does not prevent the Prosecution from raising

23 questions in relation to those parts which are less suitable for a 92 bis

24 or 89(F) treatment but of course are still fully open for questioning from

25 the witness as a viva voce witness.

1 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour, but I wanted to clarify that

2 aspect.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay.

4 MS. LOUKAS: I thought they were being excised for all purposes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

6 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour. I'd like to direct Your

7 Honours, as I said, to paragraph 14.

8 Q. Now, sir, in your statement, you've said that -- you describe a

9 JNA military truck which came to your neighbourhood and parked near a

10 community hall, and you say that the truck was filled with cases of

11 weapons.

12 My first question is did you personally see the truck yourself?

13 A. Yes, I did.

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10 Q. Thank you. Now, why did you conclude that the cases which you saw

11 were -- contained weapons? Why did you come to that conclusion?

12 A. Well, I came to that conclusion quite simply. It's a simple

13 conclusion. They were driven in by army trucks. Second, there was

14 security for -- provided by people carrying weapons and protecting this,

15 and the circumstances and the situation in the entire Bosnia-Herzegovina

16 and the information we would get from people who had fled from Visegrad,

17 for example. They would let it be known that these were weapons, weapons

18 that were stored in the centre, in the Dom. I didn't give it much

19 thought, didn't think about why the weapons -- they were coming in, why

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24 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to invite you to clearly state your answer

25 because sometimes by nodding it's clear to us but then it does not appear

1 on paper and it is not translated, so therefore could you give an explicit

2 answer.

3 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, I'd like to direct you now to paragraph

4 19, which concerns some murders which took place before the shelling.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps before you do so, I would have one

6 question for the witness.

7 Were you familiar with sizes of cases for weapons and could you

8 say something more about that.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I can say is -- give you a rough

10 estimate; there were large crates, large cases, perhaps two metres in

11 length and one metre wide. There were smaller cases, medium cases, so

12 different sized cases.

13 JUDGE ORIE: When you say that you saw your neighbours take the

14 weapons, were they then out of the cases or would they take such cases?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The neighbours I saw were already

16 bearing weapons and they were taking up the cases from the trucks, off the

17 trucks and taking them into the Dom, the centre across the road from the

18 church.

19 JUDGE ORIE: So you did not see any weapons coming out of those

20 cases.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not at that point, no, while I was

22 watching and all the times that I saw this, I didn't.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Judge Hanoteau also has a question for

24 you.

25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Sir, what kind of neighbourhood

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1 was it? Where did you live, in what kind of neighbourhood? You're

2 talking about your Serb neighbours. Were there any other neighbours in

3 your neighbourhood belonging to another ethnicity?

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6 JUDGE ORIE: Turn it to private session.

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7 [Open session]

8 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 I direct Your Honours' attention to paragraph 19 of the statement.

10 Q. Sir, in your written statement, you said that before the shelling

11 of the town of Rogatica began, there were several murders in villages near

12 Rogatica. Do you know the ethnicity of the murdered victims? Who was

13 murdered?

14 A. According to what people told me, this is information that reached

15 town, these were people who were ethnic Muslims, I mean the persons who

16 were killed, because Kusic and people who thought like him had already

17 started acting like a Chetnik detachment or platoon -- I'm not very

18 knowledgeable about these things. They were already active in this way in

19 the villages around Rogatica where there was a Muslim population.

20 Q. Who do you believe murdered those Muslim people?

21 A. They were murdered by ethnic Serbs in uniform. The Serbs in

22 Rogatica themselves at that time called them the Chetnik detachments, in

23 uniforms of the Yugoslav Peoples' Army, but they were saying that it was

24 now the regular Serb army.

25 Q. You said in your statement that as a result of those murders,

1 people started to panic. Could you just clarify, which people started to

2 panic?

3 MS. LOUKAS: Before this --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 MS. LOUKAS: -- further proceeding with the questioning, I would

6 just indicate, Your Honour, as a marker, that questions directed to belief

7 without factual foundation are objected to.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it was on my mind as well, I was a bit

9 surprised. The witness did not answer what he believed but said what

10 happened, although did not establish a -- at least, it was not clear on

11 the basis of what he considered this to have happened. But I do agree

12 with Ms. Loukas that asking what a witness believes is calling for

13 speculation, but I'll allow you to further lay a factual foundation and

14 the results.

15 MR. GAYNOR:

16 Q. Sir, on what basis did you believe that those Muslims were

17 murdered by ethnic Serbs in uniform? Why did you believe that?

18 A. On the basis of statements made by people who lived in those

19 villages and who saw Serb soldiers killing several persons, women

20 included. The people who stated that were ethnic Muslims.

21 Q. You said in your statement that as a result of those murders,

22 people started to panic. Could you clarify which people you're referring

23 to there.

24 A. I'm going to talk specifically about my family, about my street,

25 about people who were near me. We were all together and these were people

1 who were ethnic Muslims and also an elderly Croat lady. When this

2 shelling took place in the neighbouring villages, she fled from there. I

3 saw her in the street and I invited her to my house. She stayed with us

4 for a while and I can say that from that moment onwards, there was

5 absolute panic among people, absolute fear from the uncertain.

6 So speaking in terms of percentage, Muslims accounted for a vast

7 majority, and in my street, there was that Croat woman too.

8 Q. I'd like to move now to the portion of your statement dealing with

9 the shelling of Rogatica town.

10 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, this is paragraphs 20 and 21.

11 Q. Sir, in your --

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

14 MR. GAYNOR:

15 Q. Sir, in your statement, you said that "Rogatica is in a valley and

16 you could see the artillery positions surrounding us." Did you see those

17 artillery positions with your naked eye?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And how far away were they?

20 A. The closest artillery position was perhaps about 50 or 60 metres

21 away from my house as the crow flies. That was a position within a

22 factory compound. I even recognised the person who was operating the

23 weapon. He was a Serb neighbour of mine and his garden was opposite mine.

24 Q. Now, in your statement you say that shelling came from the

25 directions of certain areas?

1 A. Yes. I said that that was the closest one. And there was another

2 one that was really nearby, another position from which firing came, and I

3 saw the operations myself. Perhaps it's about 100 metres away as the crow

4 flies. Again, I recognised the people manning the weapons. One of them

5 actually went to elementary school with me.

6 Those were the two closest artillery positions that I observed

7 directly without any difficulty at all. Other artillery positions could

8 be seen only when they were actually firing from there, when people could

9 hear the sound and see the smoke.

10 So from that side where I could see, I saw that in that part,

11 Rogatica was completely surrounded by artillery weapons that were firing.

12 (redacted)

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19 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to ask you

20 a question, please. You say that the shelling began on the 21st or on the

21 22nd of May. Do you recall the time? When did it begin exactly?

22 MS. LOUKAS: I'm just concerned that the last answer may need to

23 be redacted in terms of the protective nature of the witness's evidence.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that would be the next redaction. Yes, but

25 first let's deal with the one that is already 15 minutes old and which,

1 Mr. Registrar, if you need any guidance, then ...

2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, may I ask your attention for -- it's now

4 the third redaction we have to make. We have to turn it to private

5 session if there's any identifying element.

6 MR. GAYNOR: Certainly, I will be careful with that, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

8 MR. GAYNOR: I think His Honour Judge Hanoteau was going to ask a

9 question.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, he was about to ask a question.

11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I wanted to ask you, when did the

12 shelling begin; do you recall the exact time?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember it was 12.00 noon. I was

14 in the street, in the main street in our town. (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

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18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted). There was a lot of panic everywhere. We did

22 not know who was shooting and from where. People tend to feel lost in

23 situations like that. We just tried to get to our house where our

24 children were. As for the time, it was 12.00.

25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Do you know why the shelling

1 began?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm still trying to find an answer

3 to that question why Rogatica was shelled, why the shelling started, and

4 against whom this shelling was aimed at and why it lasted so long.

5 As we started fleeing once the shelling began, people who stayed

6 behind in Rogatica were the ones who actually started fleeing because it

7 was only Muslims who stayed behind. Serb women and children had already

8 been evacuated to Serbia, so it was clear against who these shells were

9 and what their objective was, what their target was.

10 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] But sir, before noon, in the

11 morning, let's say, or during the night the previous night, was there

12 shooting? Did you hear anything? Were there any attacks?

13 A. Not in the town itself.

14 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

15 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, for the next section, I think we should

16 go into private session, please.

17 JUDGE ORIE: We turn it to private session.

18 [Private session]

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10 [Open session]

11 MR. GAYNOR:

12 Q. Sir, after the shelling of Rogatica took place, did troops enter

13 Rogatica?

14 A. I'm sorry, do you mean after the first shelling or after the

15 shelling that by then was taking place every day? I don't really

16 understand your question.

17 Q. Could you tell us, in relation to the shelling, when the troops

18 entered Rogatica.

19 A. Now I understand the question. The town of Rogatica was shelled

20 for a very long time. The formations that I've already mentioned entered

21 the town gradually, cleaning up street after street, house after house,

22 and that is how they approached the centre of town. So these military

23 formations entered the town gradually.

24 As far as I know, it went on for about two and a half months or

25 three and a half months, until the entire town was cleansed of its Muslim

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1 population and until it was fully taken over by Serb military formations.

2 Q. When you say that the troops entered the town gradually, cleaning

3 up street after street, what do you mean by the words "cleaning up"?

4 A. Clean-up in the war that I was in and that I'm testifying about

5 now as a witness is the ugliest thing that a person could imagine. It

6 means entering a street or a house -- perhaps it's best to explain it by

7 way of the example of a house.

8 Hand grenades are thrown on a house, the house is entered

9 violently, by force, the door is broken down, automatic rifles,

10 machine-guns are used, fired at the house mercilessly. If anybody were in

11 the house, they'd be killed. Whoever would have the good fortune of not

12 being killed, then they would be detained.

13 Then the specialists would come in. They had flame throwers and

14 that is how houses were set on fire. That is how house after house was

15 dealt with, street after street, neighbourhood after neighbourhood until

16 ultimately the entire town was destroyed. All the Muslim houses were

17 torched. Many people, innocent people, civilians, women, children lost

18 their lives. Many were brought to the Veljko Vlahovic school that had

19 been turned into a detention centre. Others were brought to the place

20 where weapons were unloaded. That is where they were detained. Others

21 yet were taken to the elementary school and detained there. Then the

22 fourth group was taken to a farm, to those barns of the farm that had been

23 empty for years. The fifth group were taken to a factory and that is

24 where they were detained.

25 So the word "clean-up" is something inconceivable. For me, it is

1 still inconceivable.

2 So I think that I cannot paint a clearer picture for you than what

3 I've said so far in terms of what "clean-up" meant in my books. It is an

4 inhumane act. Unfortunately, in that war, it was an inhumane act

5 committed by the Serbs against unarmed civilians in a town who had no

6 intention of putting up any kind of resistance against Serb soldiers or

7 our Serb neighbours.

8 Q. Sir, you referred in your --

9 MS. LOUKAS: Just before the next question, and perhaps Mr. Gaynor

10 will be proceeding to do this, just in relation to that, the last answer,

11 it, I think, would be more useful to the Trial Chamber to know what is

12 result of direct knowledge and what information is being conveyed on the

13 basis of knowledge from others and hearsay and what have you, but I think

14 perhaps Mr. Gaynor might be proceeding to do that. I just wanted to

15 ensure that that was done.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, your attention is drawn to -- but perhaps

17 it would be better at all to try to keep answers and questions closer

18 together.

19 I fully understand the witness wants to tell us a lot about -- I

20 think you could tell us for days and days what happened. We are under

21 time restraints so would you specifically focus on the questions asked to

22 you by Mr. Gaynor and that perhaps would help.

23 Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

24 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.

25 Q. Sir, in your answer, you said that many people were killed during

1 the cleaning operation in Rogatica. Do you know how many people,

2 approximately, were killed?

3 A. I don't know the official figure. I don't know the official

4 figure how many civilians in Rogatica were killed, lost their lives in

5 that cleaning operation in Rogatica, but I do know that in my street, and

6 in the next two streets which were inhabited by purely Muslim inhabitants,

7 that within the space of one hour, 300 were killed, and at the very last

8 minute, I managed to escape myself because I fled to the square where the

9 majority of the population had already taken refuge because you have new

10 buildings on the square that were fairly well protected, or rather, you

11 could find shelter there in the basements or in those buildings, and that

12 was our only salvation at that point in time.

13 Q. Sir, in your previous answer, you referred to troops going from

14 house to house. Did you personally see those troops or did you hear about

15 that from other people?

16 A. Concretely speaking about my street and what happened in my

17 street, I didn't have a chance of seeing this because I'd already left,

18 but my former friend, acquaintance, who was a Serb soldier, told me about

19 it in detail, and he named names.

20 Q. You also referred to the killing of approximately 300 people. Do

21 you remember what date, approximately, that took place?

22 A. 19th of July, maybe.

23 Q. And how did you hear about those killings?

24 A. I heard about them, I said a moment ago that a Serb soldier told

25 me about them. We knew each other. We'd known each other for a long

1 time. We socialised. He came to the camp one day, called me, offered me

2 a cigarette, and said he was sorry that my house had been destroyed during

3 that operation. And by the by, he said he was happy that I had, as luck

4 would have it, that I had been there and that I survived it all, that I

5 was there.

6 So that happened in the camp, that is to say, I received

7 information in the camp what was done in my street and how many innocent

8 women and children and men had fallen casualty.

9 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, I'd like to direct your attention to

10 the last few sentences of paragraph 22.

11 Q. Sir, in your statement, you said that you heard several

12 announcements by the Serbian army and Chetniks in Rogatica town and they

13 were making announcements with a loudspeaker.

14 The first question is where were these loudspeakers located?

15 A. One was located right next to the secondary school centre in the

16 northern part of town, the exit towards Sarajevo, and the second one was

17 in the south, towards Visegrad, the road towards Visegrad.

18 Q. Why did you conclude that it was the Serbian army and Chetniks

19 that were making announcements?

20 A. Well, because the announcements came from the command of the Serb

21 army and the command that was led by Rajko Kusic, and it was common

22 knowledge amongst us that Rajko Kusic was -- well, they asked us in the

23 camp to refer to him as Vojvoda Rajko Kusic.

24 Q. Why did you believe that the announcements were coming from the

25 command of the Serb army?

1 A. On the basis of the fact that I think when the third announcement

2 came, I directly had occasion to talk to Zivojin Novakovic who came up in

3 a tank, escorted by Serb soldiers, and he personally read out to us the

4 announcement once again without a loudspeaker, with instructions as to

5 what we were supposed to do, and at a certain point during our talk,

6 because I personally took part in that talk, conversation, he was told

7 that in that part of town, the square where the new buildings were, that

8 there were two and a half thousand, roughly, up to 3.000 women, children,

9 and sick persons, men, civilians, and that the offer made to us by the

10 Serb command couldn't be actually put into practice because so many people

11 could not fit into the secondary school centre. The school wasn't big

12 enough to take in all those people who were there.

13 Then we asked that he should try and talk to the command and --

14 I'll have to paraphrase here, I can't remember every single word, but I

15 and another man, an elderly man, and we were there directly, next to

16 Zivojin, said that there was so many people on the square, 2.500 to 3.000

17 civilians, as I said, and that we said to him, "Bring the Serb flag, fly

18 the Serb flag. If we recognise the Serb Republic and the authorities and

19 the laws and everything you want, just stop the shelling. We can't all

20 fit into the school building, there are too many of us." And he said,

21 "All right, I'll do the best I can and talk to the command." He got into

22 the tank and went off.

23 He left, and then afterwards he said -- he came back and he said

24 he had talked to them but nothing would come of that. "You nevertheless

25 all have to go to the secondary school centre, to the school building in

1 order to avoid -" that's what he said - "to avoid the cleaning."

2 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, the next main area concerns the

3 school. I don't know when Your Honours wish to take a break

4 JUDGE ORIE: I had in mind to take a break in a couple of minutes,

5 but we could do it now and then restart at ...

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that, caused by the many redactions

8 we had to make, unfortunately, that we have to break for 30 minutes. That

9 means that we'll restart at five minutes to 1.00 sharp, this clock.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.23 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

12 JUDGE ORIE: If any of the parties would ask me what "sharp"

13 means, I had to admit that it was on the side of the Chamber that the

14 discipline was lacking.

15 Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

16 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: We're still in open session, yes.

18 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour. The next part of this

19 examination will concern the school and that really starts at around

20 paragraph 26 of the witness's statement, at page 5, and continues for the

21 next couple of pages.

22 I'd like the witness to be shown the next exhibit, please, and I'd

23 request that the exhibit be given an exhibit number.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

25 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P578.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

2 MR. GAYNOR:

3 Q. Sir, do you recognise the buildings on that piece of paper?

4 A. Well, they are photographs of the secondary school centre called

5 Veljko Vlahovic in Rogatica. They are photographs of buildings, the

6 buildings in which I spent about three and a half months as a detainee

7 with my family and with many other civilians.

8 Q. Thank you. You can put that exhibit to one side, sir.

9 Now, did you go to this school in order to seek refuge? Did you

10 find it a place of refuge?

11 A. Whenever they used the loudspeaker system to make an announcement

12 and -- in which they said that the Muslims could take refuge in the school

13 building, the Veljko Vlahovic secondary school centre, they also said that

14 in that school, in the school building, which, as they said, we were

15 supposed to stay for two to three days until the town had been cleaned up,

16 that we would be protected from the effects of the war, that there would

17 be no shooting, that they wouldn't shoot at us, that we wouldn't have any

18 problems, that we would just avoid the war operations going on in town if

19 we took refuge for two or three days in the school building.

20 Q. Now, in your statement - and I'll direct Their Honours to

21 paragraph 27 - you say that you concluded that it was a concentration

22 camp. What was it that brought you to conclude that it was a

23 concentration camp?

24 A. Well, as soon as I arrived at the school after the first two or

25 three days when we were told it was the time we would spend there, and

1 they said that if we had any food, we should take it with us to keep us

2 going during those two, three days, so nothing actually happened during

3 the first two or three days which would allow us to conclude that it was

4 anything else but what they announced that it was.

5 However, on the third day, we, or rather, I came to the conclusion

6 that something was amiss, that something was wrong, and that I couldn't

7 recognise in what was around me what they had said that we would come

8 across because the Serb police would storm the building, people I didn't

9 know would enter. They were in uniform with weapons. And these people

10 engaged in negative actions against the people in the school and those who

11 had tried to save their families and their own lives in taking refuge from

12 the war operations.

13 Q. Were you permitted to leave -- to enter and exit the school at

14 will?

15 A. No, we were prohibited from leaving the school, and to the right

16 of the entrance into the school, to the right-hand side, nearby there was

17 the administration offices of the transport company in Rogatica. And on

18 the roof of that company, there was a machine-gun nest which we could see

19 every day. There was soldiers there in the sniper's nest and around the

20 buildings, near the school building. At the entrance itself, the doors

21 were fastened with thick chain. To the left of the school, there was

22 another machine-gun nest manned with soldiers, and we were warned that the

23 whole area around the school had been mined, in fact, and that if anybody

24 attempted to flee or jump out of a window from one of the school

25 classrooms, that would be impossible because the whole area around was

1 mined. Mines had been laid and there were guards on duty around the

2 school, so that was the situation. You weren't able to leave, nor did you

3 dare leave, and of course you were prohibited from leaving.

4 Q. Approximately how often did you receive meals while you were

5 detained at the school?

6 A. Well, we ate the rations we had brought in ourselves very quickly,

7 we got through them very quickly, and then the real trouble started with

8 respect to food because there were many women and children there and they

9 had nothing to eat. Nobody had any food left. There were -- we didn't

10 have anything to eat for days, then on other days, the Serb army would

11 turn up, Serb soldiers would turn up with a small truck and they would

12 bring in five or six sacks of potatoes, for example, several bottles of

13 cooking oil, some pasta, or something like that. So that was -- those

14 were the foodstuffs that we were given. That was the kind of food that we

15 were given by the Serb army, a little flour, perhaps, very little.

16 For example, in one of these -- in one of these instances where

17 they brought in some food, my family received three potatoes, three or

18 four thin bits of pasta, and the line I was waiting in, the cooking oil

19 had -- there wasn't enough to go around, so we didn't get any. So this

20 was for -- in the period of, say, 21 days, they would bring in these

21 rations when they brought in a large group of women and children and men.

22 Then they would bring in, later on, some of this food which wasn't enough,

23 not only for the people that they had brought in but certainly not for the

24 people who were already there, to go around.

25 There were water shortages, there was very little water to be had

1 because the main water supply line, due to the tank operations near the

2 school building, as the soil was soft, the tank fell through the ground

3 and damaged the water supply lines, pipes, so the water situation was very

4 difficult, very short supply of water.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, I foresee that you will be in time

6 trouble rather soon. Could you please try to get a bit more control. Of

7 course it's important to know whether there was sufficient water or not,

8 but if there was insufficient water, whether it was due to broken

9 pipelines, due to failing trucks, transport, is really not something ...

10 I'm asking, Mr. Gaynor, to put the questions more specifically to

11 you, because for this Chamber, of course if there is any specific reason

12 why one day there was no water, we'd like to know, but in general, if you

13 say there was not sufficient water, then we are inclined to accept that.

14 And if there's any doubt on that, you will certainly get some questions

15 from the Defence which would then put that into question.

16 A bit of tighter control, Mr. Gaynor, would really be appreciated.

17 MR. GAYNOR: Certainly, I will certainly do so, Your Honour.

18 Q. Very briefly, sir, could you describe very briefly, how often did

19 you wash yourself during your three and a half months at the school?

20 A. I managed just once, the upper half of my body, my torso.

21 Q. And in the rooms in which you slept, how many people slept in the

22 rooms in which you slept?

23 A. It depended. In my room, in the room I was in, there were 47 of

24 us, including women, children, adults.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, in paragraph 29 of your statement, you said that

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1 shortly after you arrived at the camp, you were brought to see Rajko

2 Kusic. And you describe him as the commander of the camp. Why do you

3 describe him as the commander of the camp?

4 A. Because in talking to him, he personally told me that he was the

5 commander of the town of Rogatica, that he was the commander of the camp,

6 and that in fact that everything was under his auspices or leadership.

7 Q. Now, in your statement, you've said that the camp grew to hold

8 1.100 people. To the best of your knowledge, what ethnicity were those

9 people, very briefly?

10 A. All the people there were Muslims except for two women who were

11 Serbs but married to Muslims, and they were with us the whole time.

12 MR. GAYNOR: I'd request that the witness now be shown the next

13 exhibit, please, and I'd request an exhibit number for that.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P579.

16 MR. GAYNOR: This exhibit which is being sent around now is named

17 Serbian Army of BH Rogatica Brigade Command. It's dated at Borika the

18 11th of June, 1992, it's directed to the SRK command, and it's signed by

19 Commander Rajko Kusic, and it also bears a stamp.

20 Q. Now, sir, if you concentrate yourself on the first paragraph of

21 this document, you'll see in the brigade's zone of responsibility, there

22 were no sizeable enemy activities. Now, is that consistent with what you

23 observed in Rogatica during this period, which is June 1992?

24 A. No.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, if he says it's not consistent, that's of

1 course the answer you could expect. If you do not clearly say that this

2 is an SRK, so the enemy of the SRK would be Muslims, and therefore you

3 should put that in context in order to get the answer, at least I expect,

4 you would like to hear.

5 MR. GAYNOR: Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'll ask it to the witness.

7 This is a report in which the Serb army says that there were no

8 sizeable enemy activities, that is, enemies of the Serbs, let's say Croats

9 or Muslims. Is that consistent with your observations, that the enemies

10 of the Serbs had no sizeable activities? That means Croats, Muslims,

11 whoever had forces there.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely. We were civilians

13 without weapons so we were in the hands of the Serb army.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

15 MR. GAYNOR:

16 Q. Now, very briefly, Witness, the last sentence in that paragraph

17 says, "The people are finding shelter in the secondary school centre."

18 Could you just confirm that the expression "finding shelter" is an

19 inaccurate statement of what those people were doing in that school.

20 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, that question, of course, is posed in a

21 thoroughly objectionable form.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Not only that but the question has already been put

23 and answered by the witness, so there's no -- I mean, it's clear that what

24 is described here does not fit at all in the description the witness has

25 given before.

1 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, thank you very much. I'll move on.

2 At this point, Witness -- I'd just like to point out to Your

3 Honours a typographical error at paragraph 31 of the English statement of

4 this witness. This typo does not appear in the B/C/S version of the

5 statement. On the third line at the end, it says maybe 300 hundred

6 people, which suggests 30.000, Your Honours can strike the word "hundred"

7 because the correct number is 300.

8 Q. Now, sir, in your statement you said that 300 people were getting

9 on to trucks in the school compound to leave Rogatica. My question is

10 this: Were those people voluntarily leaving Rogatica?

11 A. No.

12 MS. LOUKAS: Again, Your Honour, that question can be posed in a

13 less leading form.

14 JUDGE ORIE: The witness may answer the question.

15 Sir, the question was whether these 300 people on the trucks,

16 whether they were voluntarily leaving Rogatica.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

18 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, I think we'll move directly into

19 private session at this stage.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, since the public gallery was, with my consent,

21 not entirely empty - I think it is now - we are in private session and the

22 public gallery is empty now.

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21 [Open session]

22 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, I'd like to --

23 JUDGE ORIE: It's not confirmed on my screen yet, Mr. Gaynor.

24 Now it is. Please proceed.

25 MR. GAYNOR: We're now going to be dealing with a description of

1 events at paragraph 37 of the witness's statement, which is page 6.

2 Q. Sir, in your statement you refer to Tomo Batinic. Do you know his

3 full first name?

4 A. Tomislav Batinic.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. GAYNOR: I'd now request that the next exhibit be distributed

7 and that it be given an exhibit number.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar --

9 MR. GAYNOR: Sorry, Your Honours, I understand this has an exhibit

10 number; it is P64.A.

11 JUDGE ORIE: So there's no need to assign any other number.

12 MR. GAYNOR: This document is headed Serbian Republic of Bosnia

13 and Herzegovina Presidency, it's dated Pale, 20th of July, 1992. It's

14 signed by the president of the Presidency, Dr. Radovan Karadzic, and it

15 bears a stamp. It lists the members of the War Commission for the Serbian

16 municipality of Rogatica.

17 Q. At number 2, Witness, you see Tomislav Batinic. Do you believe

18 that to be the Tomo Batinic who you spoke to in the camp?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you see the name Sveto Vaselinovic?

21 A. I see it.

22 Q. Who was he?

23 A. Sveto was president of the SDS in the town of Rogatica.

24 Q. Thank you. In your -- in your document you also see the name of

25 Milorad Sokolovic. Now, in your statement at paragraph 14, you said that

1 you saw a Mile Sokolovic distributing weapons, and you later clarified

2 that that was Milorad Sokolovic. Do you believe that person could be the

3 same person as listed on this document?

4 A. Yes, because we all called Milorad Sokolovic "Mile," and I know

5 for sure that it's one and the same person.

6 Q. Sir, in your statement - this is paragraph 37, Your Honours - you

7 say that in your conversation with Tomo Batinic, he told you that it was

8 too late, everything will be destroyed. What did you understand him to

9 mean by those words?

10 A. My understanding was that nothing could be helped, that no one

11 could hope to survive any longer. It was said that all the prisoners at

12 the school would disappear and that it was too late for everyone.

13 Q. Who said that all the prisoners at the school would disappear?

14 A. Well, Tomislav Batinic did.

15 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to move on to the next topic. There's no

16 need for you to look at that exhibit anymore, sir.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one additional question, Witness 382.

18 You said Mr. Batinic said that all Muslims would disappear. Did you

19 understand this to be disappear at all, or to disappear from the territory

20 of Rogatica, or any other way?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My understanding was that we'd all

22 be killed there, that we'd be killed, because before that conversation,

23 many people had been killed. They disappeared from the camp. They were

24 executed. All of us who were still there at the time were told that we'd

25 all be killed, that we'd all disappear.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

2 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour. The next subject is forced

3 labour, and that is mentioned in paragraph 38.

4 Q. Sir, in your statement, you said that your son was forced to work

5 as a forced labourer. Has your son told you what kind of labour he

6 carried out?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what did he tell you?

9 A. They were digging trenches for the Serb army, they carried

10 ammunition, they made machine-gun nests out of sandbags, they buried

11 corpses in town.

12 Q. Did your son describe any mistreatment that he received while he

13 was carrying out those tasks?

14 A. Yes. Every time when he'd come back, he'd tell me that if you

15 didn't work fast enough or if you didn't do exactly what they said, they

16 would beat you, swear at you, insult you, threaten to kill you.

17 Q. How old was your son at that time?

18 A. Thirteen.

19 MR. GAYNOR: Now, I'd like to refer Your Honours to paragraph 40

20 on page 7 of the ICTY statement.

21 Q. Sir, in your statement, you said there was a time when Macola was

22 the commander of the camp and Rajko Kusic was the commander of the town.

23 Now --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, why do you describe Macola as the commander of the camp?

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1 A. Because one day a Serb soldier in uniform appeared in the

2 classroom where I was and he introduced himself not by name, he introduced

3 himself as a Serb soldier who had come from the front in Serb Krajina in

4 Croatia, that he was now the new commander of our camp, that we should be

5 obedient from every conceivable point of view, that we should carry out

6 his orders.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. And --

9 Q. When you say that Macola was the commander of the camp and Kusic

10 was the commander of the town, does that mean that Kusic no longer had any

11 control over the camp?

12 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I object to leading.

13 JUDGE ORIE: In what respect did change the position of Mr. Kusic,

14 if at all, due to Mr. Macola being the new camp commander in relation to

15 the camp?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I didn't understand the

17 question.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kusic was followed up as a camp commander by

19 Mr. Macola. Not being the commander, was his position in relation to the

20 camp nil, was there still any relation left, him not being the camp

21 commander anymore?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because he was the absolute

23 commander. Being camp commander meant that he was subordinated to the

24 chief commander, that was Rajko Kusic. Truth to tell, he didn't appear

25 that much later, he would appear at night. But I do not see that he

1 particularly lost any responsibility, in view of what was going on in the

2 camp.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

5 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour. Now, Your Honours I'm going

6 to ask some questions relating to paragraph 47 which is at the very bottom

7 of page 7 and the top of page 8.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Looking at the clock, Mr. Gaynor, do you think that

9 we -- you would finish within a couple of minutes the examination-in-chief

10 or ...

11 [Prosecution counsel confer]

12 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, I believe that I will not be finished in

13 the next couple of minutes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then before entering into a new area, perhaps

15 we could use the last two minutes to see what the remainder of the week

16 will be for us.

17 MR. GAYNOR: Very well, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Because we are two minutes from the break.

19 Witness 382, we will stop for the day. We'd like you to come back

20 tomorrow in the morning. I take it that we'll conclude also by tomorrow.

21 I have to instruct you that you should not speak with anyone about

22 your testimony you have given until now or the testimony you are still

23 about to give. Perhaps for your personal guidance, knowing that you're --

24 perhaps I go in private session for one second.

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19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Very practical, Mr. Gaynor; how much time would you

21 still need? I've seen estimates of four hours, of three hours, and the

22 four hours at least was accompanied by a considerable gain of time due to

23 89(F).

24 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, I won't proceed for more than 45 minutes

25 tomorrow morning.

1 JUDGE ORIE: What, then, have we gained on 89(F)?

2 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, in the case of this specific witness, he

3 did have quite a lot of extra information. I'll revise my estimate, I'll

4 work on it overnight, and I'll compress it to 30 minutes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before I say yes or no, my next question would

6 be, Ms. Loukas, how much time would you need to cross-examine Witness 458?

7 I'm asking this because sometimes the Chamber is surprised by the time

8 taken or not taken to cross-examine the witness.

9 MS. LOUKAS: I'll take that on board, Your Honour.

10 Just in relation to Witness 458, being the fourth witness this

11 week --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I should first have asked about

13 cross-examination of Witness 382, but if you deal with them together.

14 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. Well, firstly, in relation to

15 Witness 382, I would have thought an hour would see me out easily. That's

16 my estimate at this point.

17 JUDGE ORIE: That would bring us, half an hour and an hour, to the

18 first break tomorrow morning, yes.

19 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: If we start even more sharp than we did today, yes.

21 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. The other witness, of course,

22 is Witness 458 and -- the fourth witness this week, and I can indicate

23 that I will have something of a reprieve in that, having done the first

24 three witnesses, Mr. Stewart will be doing witness number four.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

1 MS. LOUKAS: So I haven't, at this stage, consulted with

2 Mr. Stewart to see how long he thinks cross-examination might take. That

3 witness, of course, is the witness relating to the Banja Luka

4 municipality.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm aware of that. If, of course, we could

6 finish with that witness in the two and a half hours remaining, then that

7 would be good, for the witness also.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. Of course the -- keeping

9 witnesses here over the weekend is something ...

10 JUDGE ORIE: So we do agree that we'll try to fill the programme

11 tomorrow that would suit both the needs of the witness.

12 Perhaps also for the Prosecution -- of course in my view and in

13 the view of the Chamber, it takes a lot of time. First of all, better

14 control of the witnesses is really needed. We saw it immediately after

15 you changed the way of examining the witness and it gave just as much

16 relevant information you were seeking. That's one.

17 But there are other matters as well. For example, I have now seen

18 two pictures of a school building. That's fine if there would be any

19 dispute about whether this was the school building, but I do not take that

20 that's the case. I have seen in my life some 100 or 200, 500 school

21 buildings, I have an impression, so unless there's any specific reason why

22 the layout of that school building would add anything to the information

23 about people being detained in school buildings, we do without.

24 This is just one example but I'd like the parties to think about

25 the relevance of these matters at all details because it will save us at

1 least 25 or 30 per cent of our time.

2 We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1:51 p.m.

4 to be reconvened on Friday, the 1st day of April,

5 2005, at 9.00 a.m.

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