1 Friday, 1 April 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Good morning to

9 everyone.

10 Mr. Gaynor, are you ready to -- are we in the -- let me first just

11 check. We are in open session but we had face distortion.

12 MR. GAYNOR: That's correct, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please keep well in mind when we have

14 to go into private session and when not because the redactions yesterday

15 were too many.

16 MR. GAYNOR: Certainly, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Usher, would you please escort the witness

18 into the courtroom.

19 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, while that's occurring, I might mention

20 that as I was coming in this morning, my interpreter was in the foyer, but

21 again we have the continuing issue of the fact that Defence counsel can't

22 bring people into the building, so he's waiting for somebody from the

23 Registry to sign him in, so at some point while the court is proceeding he

24 will be coming into the courtroom.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Loukas, we see him arrive a bit later and

1 it's a pity -- I don't know whether this could be solved, but perhaps you

2 could do without him for the first couple of minutes and then -- but

3 still, if there is any way to resolve that, if I could assist, I certainly

4 will.

5 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour, because it is something of a

6 running sore, that particular issue.

7 The other aspect is this: The deletions --

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 MS. LOUKAS: -- I would argue should be deletions for all

11 purposes.

12 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, Your Honour's guidance on Rule 89(F) is

13 fairly clearly in this respect that what's excised from the statement, as

14 Your Honour indeed recognised yesterday, does not mean that the

15 Prosecution is not at liberty to question the witness about those matters.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I don't disagree with that proposition

18 but I'm arguing a further proposition that they should be, in light of the

19 sort of evidence that it is, it should be deletions for all purposes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I do not fully understand it but I'd rather

21 -- we don't have to resolve that before we resume the examination --

22 MS. LOUKAS: No, indeed, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: -- of the witness, and we could do that soon, but --

24 so I do understand that you do agree but at the same time, perhaps I need

25 a bit further explanation where you said for all purposes, what that

1 exactly means in your view.

2 Let's first say good morning to you, Witness. I'd like to remind

3 you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the

4 beginning of your testimony that you would speak the truth, the whole

5 truth and nothing but the truth. You will now be further examined by

6 Mr. Gaynor. Mr. Gaynor, please proceed.

7 Witness: Witness 382 [Resumed]

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Examined by Mr. Gaynor: [Continued]

10 Q. Good morning, sir.

11 A. Good morning.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak into

13 the microphone, thank you.

14 MR. GAYNOR:

15 Q. Sir, I'd like to remind you that while your face is distorted on

16 the television screens, this portion of the hearing is in public session

17 so please don't identify yourself nor identify any members of the family

18 nor please don't reveal any information which might lead to your own

19 identification.

20 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, I'd like to direct you to paragraph 47.

21 Q. Witness, it's not necessary for to you look at your statement for

22 this period but in your statement you said that on some occasions you saw

23 Rajko Kusic walk around the buildings and speak to detainees, and my

24 question is this: On how many separate occasions during your detention at

25 the school did you see Rajko Kusic in the school compound?

1 A. It's difficult for me to say, to give you an exact figure. I

2 really can't say. I can't remember all the times and didn't do so, but

3 judging -- but on the basis of my experiences there, maybe 10, 12, 15

4 times.

5 Q. Sir, in your statement, you say that Rajko Kusic addressed the

6 camp. Now, I'd like to direct your attention to an address to the inmates

7 of the camp which took place in the staff room of the school. Do you

8 recall that address?

9 A. Yes. It was -- I think it was the longest visit he paid to all of

10 us -- well, not all of us, all of us couldn't fit into that room, but it

11 lasted about an hour and Rajko Kusic told us that we weren't -- that we

12 weren't cooperating enough with the Serb police and that those who were

13 taken off for interrogation were not giving precise information and making

14 his work difficult and that he was facing a problem linked to a deadline

15 that he had received. He'd been given a deadline, as he told us then. He

16 said, "And I'm running late with the cleansing of Rogatica. Other towns

17 have already been taken control of, Rogatica still hasn't, so I have to

18 report to Pale tomorrow why this hasn't been completed yet."

19 And then in a threatening, at least I saw it as a threatening

20 speech, he said that we had to be more forthright in cooperating with

21 those interrogating us. The questions that they asked us boiled down to,

22 and I know on the basis of my own experience, to this kind of thing:

23 There were daily interrogations asking us where the Sandzak men were,

24 where the Muslims from Rogatica were who were defending Rogatica. I'm

25 speaking about my own particular case and experience. Every time, I just

1 told them the truth; I said that I had absolutely not seen in my

2 environment any Muslims, my friends and neighbours, people I knew, my

3 acquaintances around --

4 Q. Thank you. In your --

5 A. -- weapons.

6 Q. In your response there, you said that Kusic said, "I have to

7 report to Pale tomorrow why this hasn't been completed yet." Do you

8 recall any other references to Pale by Rajko Kusic?

9 A. Well, whenever he would come and visit the -- and when he spoke to

10 us, addressed us, to a group of us or a large number of us, he would

11 mention his obligations, that he had to send a report to Pale, because he

12 was running late in his operations. And we just talked to each other

13 once. Once was very brief, a brief exchange, and the second time, another

14 time we talked, and he said that he was running late with his operations,

15 getting behind the deadline and he could have problems with the leadership

16 at Pale and that he, therefore, had to work in a different way with us

17 detainees in the camp and with those who were still civilians and were

18 possibly still in the centre of town, in the cellars there.

19 So he talked about this quite frequently, saying he had to go to

20 Pale and he had to report orally there.

21 Q. You said that, "Kusic said that he had to report orally there."

22 Did he at any time say to whom he had to report?

23 A. Just on the first occasion, during our first meeting, he said he

24 had to go to Pale and inform the military leadership at Pale. He didn't

25 mention any names.

1 Q. I'd like to direct -- before we move on, did you -- was there a

2 television in the school compound?

3 A. Yes, there was. In the room, some two months later, the group

4 that I was in actually was transferred to a larger room and that's where

5 the television was. We didn't use it. We quite simply didn't --

6 Q. Thank you. Did you ever see Rajko Kusic on that television?

7 A. After some time -- there was no electricity to begin with, but

8 later on, electricity came back to that part of town and the school

9 building. I suppose the television had been switched on at one time so

10 suddenly the picture came back on again when the electricity returned and

11 at that point in time, they were filming the Assembly at Pale where

12 Mr. Krajisnik was making a speech and Rajko Kusic was standing to the

13 left, on the left-hand side. He wasn't sitting down, he was standing

14 there with -- in a uniform and he was propped up against a radiator or

15 perhaps the -- a windowsill or something like that but I saw him standing

16 there at that Assembly on television. So when the soldiers saw that the

17 electricity had returned and that the television was on, they took the

18 television set away.

19 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to direct Your Honours' attention to

20 paragraph 49. The middle of that paragraph there's a reference to

21 conversation.

22 Q. Sir, in your written evidence, you refer to a conversation you had

23 with Sveto Veselinovic, who was the president of the municipal SDS. You

24 say that he criticised you for being a Muslim. Do you recall that

25 conversation?

1 A. Yes, I do recall the conversation. I was -- well, I learned from

2 two soldiers that I was supposed to go and have a talk or questioning, as

3 they called it, to one of the leaders of the SDS from Rogatica and they

4 took me to Sveto Veselinovic. The conversation didn't last long and Sveto

5 Veselinovic I knew, actually -- well, I didn't know him personally much,

6 but he had his back turned towards me and was looking out of the window

7 and he told me -- he didn't mention any names, but all he said was, in a

8 very strict tone of voice, he said, "All the Muslims will disappear," in

9 this sharp tone of voice as if he was sort of scolding me.

10 I kept quiet. I wasn't ready to answer, to respond. I was

11 shocked as well by the statement and I was afraid of what was going to

12 happen next.

13 Then he continued the conversation or he continued to speak and he

14 said, "Well, look, it's a nice day, it's sunny. We'll have good plums

15 this year and good plum brandy." I didn't really know what he was on

16 about. Then he returned to the topic of the Muslims and the people in the

17 camp, and he said that, "It's going to be the way --" he -- he told me at

18 that time, he said, "Everything's going to be the way it should be: A

19 third of the Muslims will be killed, a third become Orthodox, and a third

20 will escape." A third will be converted to Orthodoxism and a third will

21 escape.

22 Later on, he went back to these thoughts of his about the weather

23 and he called the soldiers back and they took me back to my room, to the

24 school building.

25 Q. First question is this: Did you consider his comments about a

1 third of the Muslims being killed, a third being converted and a third

2 being expelled, did you consider this to be mere political rhetoric or how

3 did you understand those comments?

4 A. Well, at that point in time, I finally came to realise that the

5 end was nigh for me and my family. First of all a camp, then this

6 conversion in the camp. All of the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle seemed to

7 have come together and I realised that I had come to the end; I hadn't

8 succeeded in escaping at the beginning before the shelling in Rogatica

9 took place. The people, in an organised manner, the women and children

10 had left, and then it seemed that Muslim -- the Muslim people, women and

11 children and others had managed to leave. They were -- could do so.

12 But then I saw that what he was actually saying to me was what had

13 actually been done and then as I was still alive myself, I saw myself as

14 being one of the people in the group that were going to be killed. And I

15 found myself in a situation where I wasn't able to react at all. I tried

16 to ask him at one point to leave my family alone, to save my family, but I

17 didn't have the strength to do so, really, I was completely shocked. I

18 was in shock and I didn't ask him to help me, actually. I was going to

19 but I didn't ask him to help me or my family.

20 Q. Was this the first time that you had heard someone refer to a

21 portion of the Muslims being killed, a portion converted, and a portion

22 expelled? Did you hear any references about that before this?

23 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, that's actually a misstatement of the

24 evidence by Mr. Gaynor.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, would you please literally quote that

1 part so that there could be no dispute about ...

2 MR. GAYNOR: Certainly.

3 Q. You said earlier that Sveto Veselinovic told you that one-third of

4 the Muslims would be killed, one-third would be converted, and one-third

5 would be expelled?

6 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, that "expulsion" is

7 the --

8 MS. LOUKAS: Precisely, Your Honour, yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Those were not the words.

10 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, if one looks at the statement and if one

11 looks at the transcript --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just literally quote what the witness said.

13 "A third of the Muslims will be killed, a third become Orthodox, and a

14 third will escape." That's what the witness said.

15 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.

16 Q. Now, the -- His Honour has just repeated your earlier evidence.

17 Was that the first time you had heard reference to this?

18 A. No. In the school, in the camp, from time to time Rajko Kusic or

19 others of lower rank would come in with information to the effect that at

20 the Assemblies that were held at Pale, some sort of new conclusions had

21 been made along the lines of the fact that in Rogatica -- first of all,

22 there was 30, 37 per cent mentioned, or rather, citizens who were Muslims.

23 Later on this number was reduced to 20 and then it got lower until the

24 last -- the latest information that we heard and that latest piece of

25 information was that nonetheless no Muslims could be in Rogatica.

1 Well, actually, my first encounter with information of that kind

2 was through television, on television, the Assembly in Sarajevo where

3 Mr. Karadzic at one point -- I don't remember all those speeches, but I do

4 remember this, it was imprinted in my brain when Mr. Karadzic said that if

5 -- I don't know what he was talking about, that if this continued, the

6 Muslim people will disappear from the face of the earth.

7 Q. At the start of 1992, how many mosques were in Rogatica town?

8 A. Two.

9 Q. At the end of 1992, please describe the condition of those

10 mosques.

11 A. At the end of 1992, and I have had the -- I saw the remains of the

12 mosques later, and when people were taken off for interrogations, so I

13 personally saw certain parts of town, what they looked like, and I was

14 shocked. And both the mosques had been destroyed.

15 Q. Do you know approximately when the mosques were destroyed?

16 A. One mosque had been destroyed -- as far as I can remember, it was

17 in the month of -- well, the end of June, beginning of July, it was

18 destroyed then, and that's the mosque that is closer to the secondary

19 school centre. The further mosque, the one further away, I can't remember

20 exactly and say for sure but I assume that that was destroyed when that

21 district was cleansed, end of July -- I can't really say exactly.

22 Q. Just focussing on the first mosque, what was it that made you

23 believe that the mosque had been destroyed?

24 A. I suppose that's what the events showed, that -- and it came to us

25 that the mosque was destroyed. One day, the soldiers went past the school

1 in a tank, they stopped, and told us to approach the glass, the window,

2 and to hear what they had to say. Danko Neric had in his hand a flag, he

3 was carrying a flag in his hand, a black one with the skull and bone

4 insignia, and his brother had the red tricolour flag of the Republika

5 Srpska. The tank's motor was still running so we couldn't hear what they

6 were saying, the engine was rather loud, and they made gestures of this

7 kind: They had a bottle of plum brandy and they would sort of put it up

8 in the air by way of greeting, and then the tank continued on in the

9 direction of the mosque.

10 After a certain amount of time had gone by, we heard a couple of

11 blows or knocks, whether they were in the tank or whatever, and then ten

12 minutes later, the tank returned. They waved to us again. We didn't

13 understand what they were saying, the engine was still on. And the next

14 day, not the same time but thereabouts, it was sometime before noon, the

15 tank turned up again and the same procedure was repeated. The tank went

16 off and we could hear just one hit on that occasion. We expected the tank

17 to come back, however, the tank didn't come back. And shortly afterwards,

18 Rajko Kusic turned up with quite a lot of soldiers and I saw that

19 something had happened. And they collected up four or five men from the

20 camp, they took them off with them, and what happened was that the tank

21 had come across an anti-tank mine of some kind and that it had exploded

22 and the driver had been killed and that the other soldiers wounded and

23 they -- these people were being taken off now, the Muslims from the camp,

24 to be a sort of human shield for the Serb soldiers to pull out -- so that

25 they could pull out their dead and wounded from the tank.

1 Q. Sorry, I'm just -- I just have to interrupt you for a second. I

2 just want to take you back to my original question.

3 You said that you believed the first mosque was destroyed, put a

4 month on it. Just very briefly, what was it specifically that made you

5 believe that the mosque was destroyed?

6 A. Later on, I came to realise what had happened, that everything

7 that was Muslim had to be destroyed, that Muslim places of worship had to

8 be destroyed, the Muslim people had to be destroyed, Muslim businesses had

9 to be destroyed. Everything that was going on showed with good reason

10 that that would ultimately happen.

11 JUDGE ORIE: The question of Mr. Gaynor was whether you saw it

12 being destroyed, whether you heard it and heard that it was destroyed. I

13 mean, what exactly was known to you in relation to the destruction of the

14 mosque?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A few shots were fired from a tank.

16 It was destroyed but not fully, and then the second day, others came to

17 destroy it completely.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Did you see the tank firing?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't, because between the school

20 and the mosque, there were quite a few houses, and smaller houses too, so

21 you couldn't really see it.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Did you hear the tank firing?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did. That, I did hear.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Before the first partly demolition, did you observe

25 the mosque being intact before that?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Did you see, with your own eyes, the mosque being

3 partly demolished after you had heard these -- this fire?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I was not in the group of

5 people who were going there to help, to help the wounded and to carry out

6 the dead. But later on, I saw the mosque after it had been totally

7 destroyed.

8 JUDGE ORIE: How did you know that at the -- in the first round,

9 it was partially destroyed? How did you learn about that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Danko Neric and his brother

11 came in the afternoon, after the tank went there for the first time. They

12 came to the big hall of the school, they talked to some people. My wife

13 was nearby. Danko had been such a nice child, my wife really liked him.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I just asked you, did you hear that from him directly

15 or indirectly? Did he report --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indirectly.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

18 MR. GAYNOR:

19 Q. Sir, in your statement, paragraph 44, you refer to a statement by

20 Nebojsa Motika, he said the men were competing to see how many bulas they

21 could turn. The expression "bulas" is not explained. Could you briefly

22 explain what the expression "bulas" means.

23 A. Bula, as far as I know about the origin of the word bula, it would

24 denote a Muslim woman preparing a dead body for burial, a female body. So

25 this is a religious person who would be preparing a female who had died to

1 be buried. She prays, she physically prepares the body, washes it, and

2 the Serb soldiers actually called all females bulas, starting from

3 children to old women. In the camp, there was an elderly woman who was

4 indeed a bula.

5 Q. Thank you, sir.

6 MR. GAYNOR: I request that the next exhibit be circulated. While

7 it's being circulated, I'm going to explain very briefly explain to Your

8 Honours what this exhibit is.

9 There were a number of exhumations carried out in the Visegrad

10 municipality in 2000 and 2001. The exhumation information will be

11 submitted to Your Honours in separate reports by exhumation experts as

12 part of expert evidence. That's not what this is. The Bosnian Commission

13 for Missing Persons undertook an identification project identifying the

14 remains of the people found in those pits. They produced a very large

15 quantity of documentation which identifies the victims.

16 Now, in another case before this Tribunal, the Vasiljevic case, in

17 order to gather all of that information into a short summary, this

18 document was prepared, which lists the -- which basically summarises the

19 information gathered by the Bosnian Commission for Missing Persons.

20 Now, I would -- have reviewed this with the witness and I'll just

21 direct the witness to this, and I'd request that it be given an exhibit

22 number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Prosecution Exhibit number P580.

24 MR. GAYNOR:

25 Q. Sir, is it correct that I drew your attention to names on this

1 list where the former residence is listed as Rogatica and is it correct

2 that I highlighted the word Rogatica in green to draw your attention to

3 those names?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, just for clarification, the witness is

6 in possession of the highlighted version that will be submitted into

7 evidence.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Gaynor, I see some handwriting on it and

9 these are words that appear the same at various lines.

10 MR. GAYNOR: Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you either ask or explain what this is.

12 MR. GAYNOR: Yeah, it's not -- in my submission, it's not

13 appropriate to ask the witness about that.

14 The handwriting is, I understand, handwriting put there by an

15 expert witness in the Vasiljevic case to indicate where -- from which

16 exhumation site the body was taken.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MR. GAYNOR: The bodies which the witness is about to identify,

19 all but one were taken from the Paklenik pit site and one was taken from

20 the Slap site.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 MR. GAYNOR: Now you will be receiving expert evidence --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, that indicates the site where the bodies were

24 found.

25 MR. GAYNOR: Yes.

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1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

2 MR. GAYNOR:

3 Q. Is it correct that I asked you to highlight in green the names of

4 persons who you were sure that you knew?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And did you then highlight in green the persons that you knew?

7 A. Yes, I did. I myself highlighted in green the names of the

8 persons who I knew.

9 Q. What ethnicity are those persons?

10 A. Muslim ethnicity. However, Mladenovic Adonis was the offspring of

11 a mixed marriage. That is the only case of a Serb surname appearing on

12 this list. I had a look at this list and I found names of people from

13 Rogatica on the list. All the other names are Muslim names.

14 Q. Sir, just focussing on the names of the people that you

15 identified, could you clarify whether they were military personnel or

16 whether they were civilians, to the best of your knowledge.

17 A. I am absolutely certain these people were civilians, and they were

18 with me, we were hiding in cellars, and none of them wore uniforms or had

19 any type of weapon.

20 MR. GAYNOR: Now, I'd request that that copy being held by the

21 witness be the copy in evidence.

22 Q. I have one final question for you, sir. In your evidence you've

23 described how your town was taken over by Serb forces and how the Muslim

24 population was rounded up -- well, part of the Muslim population was

25 brought into the school, and how your mosques were destroyed. You've

1 described the extremely serious abuse and beatings to which you personally

2 were subjected, and you've described mistreatment of members of your

3 family. Could you explain to the Judges, in your own words, what impact

4 this has had.

5 A. Everything that happened in Rogatica had a terrible impact on me.

6 I'm seriously ill. I lost all trust in people who I knew and liked well.

7 I am still afraid of them. I'm trying to find something to hitch onto so

8 that I could talk to a Serb again, have contact with Serbs, but the facts

9 are so truthful and so painful that this agony of mine, this suffering of

10 mine that I still feel is something that I cannot get rid of. I cannot

11 get rid of the images. I cannot understand my former friend Rajko, my

12 acquaintances, my friends, people who were best men at our weddings, that

13 they did everything they did. That they could do such inhumane things.

14 In the time of war, I understood that a war had started. I had

15 seen war in the movies beforehand, I saw soldiers shooting at each other,

16 but what was done in Rogatica is something that a person cannot -- rather

17 I could not, and I still cannot digest that. How is it possible to accept

18 that even now as a truth? I keep thinking that it's a nightmare, but it

19 is a cruel reality that actually took place.

20 I think -- I tried to kill myself three times. I did not succeed.

21 I understood that what was done during the war - I'm talking,

22 unfortunately, about my former friends and neighbours - these people were

23 totally led astray, and I will never understand where this madness came

24 from. I don't know why. It's a very brief question, a few letters only,

25 really, but for me, it is volumes and volumes of books that I cannot read,

1 that I cannot understand, although I experienced all of this myself.

2 On the one hand, I feel pain and sorry for the people who were

3 killed; civilians, innocent civilians, children who were killed. On the

4 other hand, my own humaneness cannot tell me anything but, (redacted), you

5 lived with these people. So in a way, I feel sorry for those people too,

6 those criminals. Unfortunately, I'm using that word human beings, people,

7 men, but the persons who did this are not human beings. They're not

8 animals either, they are some kind of creatures that, in those moments,

9 did what they did.

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19 (redacted) Could you just express briefly

20 what impact the events of 1992 had on the Muslim community of Rogatica.

21 A. I'm sorry. Once again, I wasn't focused.

22 Q. My question is just briefly describe the impact of the events of

23 1992 on the Muslim community of Rogatica.

24 A. If I understood your question correctly, you're asking me about

25 the impact of the events on the Muslim community of Rogatica, and it was

1 disastrous. It was a nightmare. People disappeared. They were expelled.

2 They were in prisons. Their property was taken away. They were robbed.

3 They were maimed. Even those who survived live with a hard truth and

4 terrible pain that they have to live with for the rest of their lives.

5 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, that ends the examination-in-chief.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.

7 Witness 382, you will now be cross-examined by counsel for the

8 Defence, Ms. Loukas.

9 Ms. Loukas, you may proceed.

10 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour. I might begin, in fact, in

11 closed session.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we turn it to private session, I take it that's

13 enough.

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21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE ORIE: You said there were people who were sent for forced

23 labour and that you were pushed around and beaten every night, and you

24 identified some of the perpetrators, among which you mentioned a man

25 nicknamed Noka from Pancevo who was one of Arkan's soldiers. Do I have to

1 understand that he was the only paramilitary in the camp, or were there

2 more? And how did he or they cooperate with the others in the camp, the

3 other guards?

4 A. He was not the only one who came and who did what everybody else

5 did. There were many of them. The first thing that made them readily

6 recognizable was the Ekavian dialect of the Serbo-Croat language that they

7 used. Also, people did not know them by sight, they did not know their

8 faces. I spoke of Noka and I could have spoken about others too but I

9 don't know their names, I don't know these persons, and they were under

10 the direct control of Commander Kusic. They actually did, probably, what

11 they had been ordered to do.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Were there any regular forces, either police forces

13 or military forces, involved in the guarding of the prisoners in the camp?

14 A. By "regular" I mean only what existed before the war in Rogatica,

15 when there was a regular police. Later on, as far as I'm concerned,

16 everything was irregular, and actually, this police or the militaries who

17 guarded us were the Serb police and Serb militaries.

18 At that moment, as a prisoner, I did not feel that I could say

19 that they were regular. They belonged to the aggressor.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But at the same time, you say there were also

21 those who were in what used to be the regular police force and the regular

22 army before the conflict started. Could you tell us how the -- how did

23 the paramilitaries work together, or did they not work together, with what

24 I just called the "regular" and what you considered, at that time, to be

25 irregular forces, that is those who worked in the police and those who

1 worked in the military before the conflict.

2 A. If I understood the question properly, at any rate, I did discern

3 some elements of the regular force among the -- some of the policemen who

4 were under Kusic's command. Some policemen were, in a way, bitter about

5 everything that was going on but they didn't dare show it.

6 A few times when I talked to people like that and who'd come to

7 bring me a cigarette or two or a little bit of bread, these people would

8 directly condemn everything that was going on, but this was a very small

9 number of people. These were people who had worked in the police before

10 and they were well-respected in town as policemen because they did their

11 work properly.

12 In wartime, it was a different situation. These people did what

13 they had to do, but my impression, on the basis of these brief

14 conversations, brief encounters with them, was that these people strongly

15 condemned everything that was going on.

16 JUDGE ORIE: But did they perform the duties together with the

17 paramilitary persons?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.

20 You talked about the two mosques in Rogatica. Could you -- did

21 they have any names, just to distinguish the two?

22 A. I myself was not very focused on religion in terms of being a

23 Muslim believer. I had a higher education. I knew as much as I needed to

24 know myself about Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Islam. I'm trying to explain

25 that I did not know the exact names of the mosques.

1 JUDGE ORIE: You don't need to explain that. Either you know it

2 or you do not know it. You say you did not know the exact names of the

3 mosques. Could you ...

4 A. But I know the names that we used when referring to them. For

5 example, one was called the Carsija mosque, the town mosque, and the other

6 one Arnaudija.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Arnaudija. Thank you for that answer. My last

8 question is the following: You explained to Ms. Loukas, first, that you

9 were not bitter against Serbs and then you said you were bitter against

10 Serbs from Rogatica who committed these crimes. How do I have to

11 understand that? Were you bitter against all Serbs of Rogatica because

12 Serbs in Rogatica had committed crimes, or were you bitter only to Serbs

13 who had committed crimes in Rogatica and not the other Serbs? Could you

14 explain to me what your ...

15 A. I am bitter only in respect of people, Serb soldiers --

16 unfortunately, even female persons, who did evil things. I am bitter

17 about Tomo Batinic because he was president of the municipality. I'm

18 bitter about Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Karadzic, who played their own part in all

19 of this. What it was exactly, I don't know, but I cannot be bitter about

20 my friends, Serbs in Rogatica, who I'd like to see. I'd like to talk to

21 them.

22 Regrettably, a friend of mine, a Serb, died. Serbs were not

23 allowed to enter the camp but he managed to get in a few times and he

24 would bring a little bit of meat for my daughter under his arm. I can

25 never forget that. This man did a great thing. I appreciate that. And

1 there were persons like that in Rogatica.

2 So can I repeat this once again, may I repeat it once again: I'm

3 bitter about non-human beings, about non-human politicians, and about

4 non-human perpetrators among the Serbs.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You included Mr. Krajisnik, although I was

6 asking about people from Rogatica. On what basis do you include

7 Mr. Krajisnik in those people? You said, "I do not know what role --" let

8 me just quote you literally, "... who played their own part in all this."

9 What's the basis for your knowledge of the role Mr. Krajisnik may have

10 played?

11 A. Well, I'll try to put it as briefly as possible. I did not know

12 Mr. Krajisnik personally. I never knew him personally. But at any rate,

13 Mr. Krajisnik, in his public appearances that I saw on television, he came

14 across as a reasonable man. I mean, I am absolutely not knowledgeable

15 about politics, but I think he pursued this policy, I don't know whether

16 sincerely and honestly are the right words, and I watched television --

17 and during the war, I came to realise the value of the position he held.

18 And also, what it meant that my friend Kusic went to Pale, and that he had

19 to bring information to Pale.

20 Then I came to realise that Mr. Krajisnik had to know about these

21 details and that as a human being, he had to react at some point in time

22 and say, "Stop all of this. This is no way to behave."

23 And the political leadership of Republika Srpska did nothing to

24 stop the agony of the civilians of Rogatica, the Muslim civilians of

25 Rogatica. On the contrary, it escalated from day-to-day until

1 extermination, under quotation marks, because the Rogatica Muslims did

2 disappear. They moved out. They were converted. They fled. That is how

3 I saw some kind of responsibility on the part of Mr. Krajisnik and

4 Mr. Karadzic as persons who could have stopped the slaughter in Rogatica.

5 As a person, I'm disappointed in myself, in a way, because I

6 misassessed Mr. Krajisnik's personality, although I'm not entitled to

7 judge people.

8 JUDGE ORIE: No one asked you to assess the personality of

9 Mr. Krajisnik.

10 Let me put the following question very directly to you: You just

11 explained that when you heard about reporting to Pale, that you became

12 aware that they should have known that they could have stopped the whole

13 situation. A very direct question to you is the following: Is it on the

14 basis of what you were told about reporting to Pale that you formed this

15 opinion, or is it on the basis of the opinion about the leadership that

16 you told us, or that you came to the conclusion that there must have been

17 reporting to Pale?

18 So I'm clearly asking you whether what you just told us was based

19 on the information you received on reporting to Pale or that it was just

20 the other way around, that you concluded that there must have been

21 reporting to Pale because they should have known about it.

22 A. Absolutely, that's the only reason. Because I could not come to a

23 conclusion on the basis of illusions but on the basis of reality, a

24 reality that actually happened. I talked to Rajko Kusic. I knew him. I

25 learned that he had to report to Pale. And therefore, as a human being, I

1 respected that kind of reaction, that he would report on what the

2 situation actually was at the camp in Rogatica and then, that on the basis

3 of that, there would be a reaction, probably on the part of the political

4 leadership, that they would say, "Stop doing this."

5 That did not happen, however. This bitterness of mine boils down

6 to the fact that, for me, there was a firm basis to believe that the

7 leadership from Pale would do something in order to have this kind of

8 thing stopped, what was being done to people. It's not that this was some

9 kind of illusion on my part, that I was imagining in my own head that the

10 leadership of Republika Srpska would do something, after all, and that I

11 can hope for that. That's not what was in my thoughts. I could not hope

12 for that and I did not think along those lines at the time.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Have you ever learned about misbehaviour and serious

14 misbehaviour on the Croat side, on the Muslim side? I'm not talking about

15 any specifics, but whether you heard about ill-treatment.

16 A. While I was in the camp, you mean?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, or even later or ...

18 A. Oh, I certainly did hear about that.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Would your bitterness extend to Croats and Muslims

20 who would have misbehaved and ill-treated or even killed other persons as

21 well?

22 A. Absolutely. Absolutely. For me, it is the same kind of people,

23 and I see them the same way.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.

25 Any need ...?

1 MR. GAYNOR: No further questions from us, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, any further questions arising out of the

3 questions from the Bench?

4 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, sorry, Your Honour, I was just in conference.

5 Just one quick question, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One more question for you by Ms. Loukas.

7 Further cross-examination by Ms. Loukas:

8 Q. Now, Witness, you've indicated that - let me just check your

9 answer here - yes, about Rajko Kusic. You, of course, don't know, as a

10 matter of fact, whether or not Rajko Kusic reported to Pale; correct?

11 A. I don't know whether he reported to them. I know that he said

12 that he had to report to them, but whether he actually did it is something

13 I don't know.

14 MS. LOUKAS: No further questions.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Loukas.

16 Witness 382, the Chamber is aware that it might not have been easy

17 to tell us about the events now more than ten years ago. The Chamber

18 appreciates very much that you came to The Hague, that you've answered the

19 questions both of the Prosecution and of the Defence and questions put to

20 you by the Bench. The Chamber wishes that you could see the positive

21 sides of life and to have at least some optimism for the future.

22 I'd like to thank you, and we wish you to safe trip home again.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort Witness 382 out of

25 the courtroom.

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 JUDGE ORIE: The next witness will testify in closed session?

3 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, just before we get to the next witness,

4 who will testify in closed session, that's right, I just want to clarify

5 that in the statement of the witness who has just completed his testimony,

6 there is one sentence, paragraph 50, the Prosecution and the Defence have

7 agreed to excise it from the statement. I wish to identify that for you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then please tender the new copy of the --

9 or you say it's just one sentence. Which one is that?

10 MR. GAYNOR: In paragraph --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just --

12 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, just in relation to that, in view

13 of the way the evidence has developed, I think we might as well just leave

14 it in.

15 MR. GAYNOR: Fair enough, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then -- okay. Then this is the -- so

17 therefore, then, the -- it was Exhibit P576. And during the -- during

18 yesterday's session, in paragraph 31, the word "hundred," not the number

19 300, was removed. I redacted that in the original, as you have provided

20 that to the Registry, with my initials and with the date on it.

21 Next witness to be heard in closed session. Just as far as

22 scheduling is concerned, I'd really deplore if we would now spend time on

23 exhibits from the previous witness and the present witness and then have

24 to keep the witness over the weekend, so perhaps we first proceed with the

25 next witness. Turn it to closed session.

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4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.02 p.m.

5 to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th day of April,

6 2005, at 9.00 a.m.

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