1 Monday, 4 April 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.12 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 The Chamber is a bit puzzled, Mr. Tieger, by the way the OTP is

10 operating at this moment. There was a message last Friday just before

11 5.00 that what we should prepare to bring, of course what we did is to

12 find the material and look at it and make sure that it would be there

13 because it would save half a wood again. Then this morning, at five

14 minutes past 9.00, where the Court were to start at 9.00, we got a message

15 that it was all not -- no, I must say this was a -- we received it only at

16 9.00 but it was sent just before 3.00 this night. "Please disregard

17 request last Friday for Judges' secretary to bring binders." Of course

18 the work was done and we start 15 minutes late. It's not something that

19 amuses the Chamber.

20 Yes, Mr. Tieger.

21 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour -- well, first of all it's not

22 something that pleases the Prosecution either, and I'm sorry for the

23 Court's trouble.

24 I hope it's clear at a minimum that we were on the same --

25 operating under the same principle, which was the desire to save labour

1 and paper. That's what we attempted to signal. Unfortunately, in the

2 process of communicating that, there was a misunderstanding and those

3 documents were indeed printed out. Once that happened, and I take

4 responsibility for that error, then it seemed that there was no purpose in

5 having those documents in court in full and having the Court as well drag

6 them down here. Apparently it didn't save the Court any time, but under

7 the circumstances, it was best at least to let the Court know.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, I do agree that it's that it's best to let

9 the Court know but let's not spend more time on it. It's -- are you ready

10 to call your next witness, Mr. Tieger?

11 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution's next witness is

12 Mr. Milan Trbojevic.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Usher, will you please escort

14 Mr. Trbojevic into the courtroom. I never know where the accent is, is it

15 Trbojevic or Trbojevic?

16 MR. TIEGER: I have the same question, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could carefully listen to the witness and

18 find out.

19 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, Ms. Cmeric always says Trbojevic and I

20 don't very often argue with her about the pronunciation of Serbian names.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I put the question mainly because Mr. Tieger said

22 Mr. Trbojevic and I had Trbojevic in my mind.

23 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, before the witness enters, I might note

24 that he comes here under the same circumstances essentially as witnesses

25 we've dealt with earlier for whom the Court gave warnings. I don't have

1 any additional information to offer beyond that but I make that

2 observation to the Court.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Looking at the way he was interviewed, what was

4 said to him then, of course, was a bit different because he was not under

5 any obligation to answer. Here he is, unless he -- I'll take care of it.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Trbojevic. Before you give

8 evidence in this Court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to

9 make a solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth

10 and nothing but the truth.

11 Madam Usher will hand out to you the text of this declaration.

12 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

14 WITNESS: MILAN TRBOJEVIC

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the

17 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Trbojevic.

19 Mr. Trbojevic, before your examination will start, I would like to

20 draw your attention to the fact that you may object to answer any question

21 which -- to which the answer might tend to incriminate yourself. Under

22 those circumstances, we can compel you to answer that question, but if you

23 are compelled this way to answer that question, your answer cannot be used

24 as evidence in any subsequent prosecution against yourself for any offence

25 other than false testimony.

1 I take it that you understand this since I learned that you're a

2 trained lawyer, so I take it that you understand the importance of this

3 rule.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand that. Thank you very

5 much.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

8 Examined by Mr. Tieger:

9 Q. Good morning, Mr. Trbojevic.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. We haven't met, sir. My name is Alan Tieger and I represent the

12 Office of the Prosecution. I'd like to begin today by providing the Court

13 with some general idea of your background and professional qualifications

14 and political experience.

15 First of all, sir, I understand that you attended secondary school

16 and graduated from the Gimnazija in Jajce in 1962; is that correct?

17 A. That's correct.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Trbojevic, I see that you have -- I can't see

19 what the papers are - they may well be empty - but whenever you think it

20 would be necessary -- it's empty or is it ...

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just sheets of paper, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine, I couldn't see that from here, but

23 you're not, without permission of the Court, you're not allowed to consult

24 any papers, as you'll understand.

25 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

1 MR. TIEGER:

2 Q. Thereafter, sir, I understand that you graduated from the faculty

3 of law in Sarajevo in 1966; is that right?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. And that you served as a judge in Sarajevo until -- from 1997

6 [sic], beginning in the primary court and then moving up to the district

7 court where you served until October of 1990; is that right?

8 A. I was a judge from the beginning of 1977 until the end of 1990.

9 Q. And in that capacity, you worked in both the primary and

10 subsequently the district court; is that right?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. And in October of 1990, you began working as an attorney?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. Now, 1990, as we all know, saw the elections, the national

15 elections in Bosnia and Herzegovina. At that time, did you get involved

16 in the political process and were you elected to serve as a representative

17 in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18 A. I was elected member of parliament in the Assembly of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, as an MP for the Serb Democratic Party without any

20 political engagement, because at that time it was allowed for non-party

21 candidates to be elected MPs provided that they signed a paper stating

22 that they do not mind being candidates. So I was a freelancer but I

23 agreed to be on the list and that is how I became a deputy in the

24 Assembly.

25 Q. Thank you. Prior to that time I understand you had been a member

1 of the Communist Party but you left the party after the 14th Congress,

2 which saw the dissolution of the party.

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. Now, if I can touch briefly upon some of the positions you held

5 after your election as a representative to the parliament, were you --

6 after the establishment of the governmental authorities of then the

7 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and what became Republika Srpska,

8 were you selected to serve as the Deputy Prime Minister?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. And very quickly, how long did you serve as Deputy Prime Minister

11 and what position did you hold, if any, thereafter?

12 A. I came to Pale on the 20th of May, I think, 1992. I spoke to the

13 then Prime Minister of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and we

14 agreed that he propose me as a candidate for a Deputy Prime Minister.

15 This procedure took place in June when either the president, on behalf of

16 the Assembly, or the Assembly carried through that appointment, my

17 appointment to the post of Deputy Prime Minister.

18 That government fell on the 24th of November, 1992 when Prime

19 Minister Djeric resigned. We continued to serve until mid-January,

20 roughly, 1993, when the new government took over, so that is as far as

21 government service is concerned.

22 In the second government, that Dr. Vladimir Lukic was Prime

23 Minister of from January of 1993 onwards, I was advisor to the Prime

24 Minister, I held that office, and that government was in place until

25 August 1994, roughly. After that, I held no government positions.

1 Parallel to being in government, I was an MP as well until, I

2 think, the summer of 1994 when I was dismissed from parliament through a

3 decision taken by the Serb Democratic Party. They decided to withdraw my

4 mandate. This was not in accordance with the existing law, it was not in

5 accordance with the new law, but that is how my activity in the National

6 Assembly ended.

7 Q. Thank you, sir. Just to clarify, I think this is the point with

8 which the Court is very familiar, perhaps the record needs to be made

9 clear but I'll seek some guidance from the Court on that. When you say

10 you held no government positions after August of 1994, I understand that

11 to mean that you held no position with the arm of the authorities known as

12 the government in contrast to the arm of the authorities known as the

13 Assembly or, for example, your president. Is that a distinction you were

14 drawing in making that point, sir?

15 A. Yes. Yes. My position in government stopped when Professor

16 Lukic's government was no longer in place. I, as an MP, continued to be

17 active until I was relieved of my duties as MP.

18 Q. Now, can I draw your attention to the period of time after you

19 began serving in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina as an SDS

20 representative and the beginning of the outbreak of the conflict. During

21 that time when you were serving as a member of parliament, did you work

22 with members of the SDS leadership?

23 A. While the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina was still one, a

24 commission -- a constitutional commission was established, if that's the

25 right name. But it was a commission that was supposed to work on

1 amendments to the constitution and things like that. On behalf of the

2 club of Serb deputies, Serb MPs, I was a member of that commission. The

3 president of that commission was the president of the Assembly,

4 Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik.

5 In terms of this agreement we had, I was the one who stood in for

6 him most of the time at these sessions of the Constitutional Commission of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina when we were supposed to attend joint meetings in

8 Belgrade and things like that. In fact, when the Constitutional

9 Commission of Yugoslavia was still meeting when the representatives of

10 Zagreb took part and the representatives of other republics, when he could

11 not go due to his work in Sarajevo, then I would go. So of course there

12 was this kind of cooperation.

13 When we met up at Pale when war operations started, of course at

14 first we were all there. All of us were cramped in this one building

15 where there weren't proper facilities for work, but meetings took place

16 every day and everybody was there. The leaders from the Presidency,

17 Krajisnik as president of the Assembly, was here -- was there as a kind of

18 host. Karadzic, Koljevic, and others came, one, two or three ministers

19 when there were meetings there, practically every day.

20 So those are the activities and cooperation I meant. This is this

21 life we had together during this transition from peacetime to wartime. We

22 did not know where our families were, we did not know where our bags were,

23 you know, so we all lived together that way under these conditions in

24 Pale.

25 Q. Thank you, sir. Returning our attention momentarily to that

1 period before the outbreak of the war, I'd like to play for you and for

2 the Court a couple of intercepted telephone conversations during that

3 period of time and seek your brief comment about those.

4 MR. TIEGER: First, Your Honour, if I can distribute the binders

5 and obtain an exhibit number.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: The four binders containing 114 tabs will be

8 Prosecution Exhibit P583.

9 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honour, I wonder if I might just ask

10 whether there is, or can, without too much work and time, be produced a

11 hyperlinked version of the schedule of these 114 items.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

13 MR. TIEGER: I'm clearly happy to oblige, as Mr. Stewart knows, if

14 that's technically feasible. I wouldn't make that representation without

15 checking with those who are better placed to answer that but I am happy to

16 do so at the first break.

17 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. TIEGER:

20 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, I'd ask you to first listen to a telephone

21 conversation that took place on August 14th, 1991.

22 MR. TIEGER: And I believe there are two clips for those we'll

23 play successively, Your Honour. One is relatively longer than the other,

24 the first clip, and we'll play them in the succession.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Do we find the transcripts somewhere in the binders?

1 MR. TIEGER: Sorry. Tab 68, Your Honour.

2 The first clip will begin at the beginning of the intercept.

3 [Intercept played]

4 MR. TIEGER: Can we stop the intercept, please.

5 JUDGE ORIE: When I listen to the French channel, I receive a

6 French translation, but the English is not.

7 MR. TIEGER: If I may ask the witness, Your Honour, Mr. Trbojevic

8 was signalling, I think, that he was not getting it.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not getting interpretation.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could we -- interpretation. Well, you are supposed

11 to get the original. Madam Usher, could you please check whether

12 Mr. Trbojevic ...

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear the original.

14 JUDGE ORIE: You can hear that?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't. I can hear the

16 interpretation into English.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then there must be a switch from channels

18 because we received the original B/C/S whereas the witness, who was

19 supposed to receive the B/C/S, did receive the English translation.

20 Could we --

21 THE INTERPRETER: The English booth hopes that it's going to be all

22 right now. Can we start from the beginning, please.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could we restart, please.

24 Mr. Trbojevic, if you do not receive the B/C/S, please tell me.

25 [Intercept played]

1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]:

2 Radovan Karadzic: Yes.

3 Momcilo Krajisnik: Hello.

4 Radovan Karadzic: Hi, how are you?

5 Radovan Karadzic: I just got in.

6 Momcilo Krajisnik: What are you doing?

7 Radovan Karadzic: Well, I just got in, met some people and so

8 on.

9 Momcilo Krajisnik: Really? I've been here all day. Lots of

10 things going on. Fuck it.

11 Radovan Karadzic: So are you still at work?

12 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yes.

13 Radovan Karadzic: Really. It should be different.

14 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yes.

15 Radovan Karadzic: You went to sleep early last night.

16 Momcilo Krajisnik: There is no field here at all, I don't

17 know how many pigs I've got or cows. Hello?

18 Radovan Karadzic: Hello. Yes.

19 Momcilo Krajisnik: I said I don't know how many cows or pigs

20 I have.

21 Radovan Karadzic: God is taking care of it.

22 Momcilo Krajisnik: I hope so. What are you doing?

23 Radovan Karadzic: You take care of this state and...

24 Momcilo Krajisnik: I am but there are others too.

25 Radovan Karadzic: Yes, yes.

1 Momcilo Krajisnik: The Presidency was held today, you know.

2 Some decisions were made. I don't know. I think we didn't understand

3 something. I examined this platform a little. I think that that's not

4 good.

5 Radovan Karadzic: Do they say, ours ...

6 Momcilo Krajisnik: I don't even know what they were doing, I

7 think they ... they didn't get it right. Didn't understand it right. I

8 have no idea what are we going to do. ... Believe me, it's all in the

9 platform, Bosnia and Herzegovina is a sovereign state. I am afraid there

10 will be a scandal and then there will be trouble. There's no Yugoslavia,

11 this is two, three, five times worse than anything that was done until

12 now.

13 Radovan Karadzic: Well, then we will have a break-up of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15 Momcilo Krajisnik: Let me tell you, we shouldn't take part in

16 the break-up, it is wrong... I think it would be good if we were to

17 consult a bit with our people up there. I don't know why they did

18 this. ...

19 Radovan Karadzic: ... why is it ...

20 Momcilo Krajisnik: I was with a guy who was present there.

21 Radovan Karadzic: And what did he say?

22 Momcilo Krajisnik: I think they didn't agree on what they

23 want. Debate has finished, in Presidency, he thinks the debate hasn't

24 finished.

25 Radovan Karadzic: Well, the debate finished in the

1 Presidency, now it is going to the Assembly, right?

2 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yes, that's right, but I think that's not

3 right, I'm afraid there might be problems in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

4 Radovan Karadzic: They're going to the Constitutional

5 Commission, right?

6 Momcilo Krajisnik: No, it's going to the Assembly. ... Look,

7 there are two problems, it was said that the platform goes to the Assembly

8 but the problem is how it is treated from then on. ... You know, because

9 that's what it is. They don't want it to have the constitutional

10 character which it doesn't really have at all. ... So that there are two

11 documents, one for creating a constitution. And today I got really angry.

12 Believe me, I haven't been this angry in a long time. We have groups in

13 the constitutional commission which have all kinds of meetings and

14 international relations and so on, and I was supposed to be there and I

15 said don't put me, put Mijanovic, Gaso, he is a professor. He's

16 realistic, he is not such a Serb, but he will know what needs to be done.

17 ... Milan should go with him and Krstan Malesevic on behalf of the SDP.

18 ... One member of the government was proposed and one of the Presidency.

19 Two government members and one Presidency member, each should be of a

20 different nationality. And today, I get the document, it is unbelievable.

21 ... Milan Trbojevic took part of it. I called then, Ranko was there for

22 15 minutes, Tmicic was, but he wasn't authorised, Mijanovic wasn't, Krstan

23 wasn't. And I mean out of the Serbs who were there, Milan Trbojevic, he

24 came to me and I said, please, we agreed about it nicely. ... There was

25 some objection, somebody should summarise it. Later on it should be

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12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

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1 discussed. ... And they write, almost send to all the Constitutional

2 Commission members and to other commissions that he is involved in it.

3 Radovan Karadzic: You know what you'll do, let Milan

4 Trbojevic write an official letter for you.

5 Momcilo Krajisnik: Okay. I know what I did. Everything

6 there. I say you have to report to your people, you're representing the

7 interests of your people. He will really write it. It's a mistake of

8 Cazim Sadikovic ... But it's impossible in this ... way. ... I said you

9 will create a revolution. I don't think that something should be done now

10 in favour of the Serbs, but you, people, cannot do things like that ...

11 they will say that we betrayed.

12 Radovan Karadzic: How did Trbojevic behave?

13 Momcilo Krajisnik: How?

14 Radovan Karadzic: He does not see any danger, right?

15 Momcilo Krajisnik: That's a problem, I mean, it's really

16 difficult when we -- when I have to say that, fuck Sim ... and Ranko, and

17 I was there for 15 minutes, I was not authorised. Simovic sent Ranko,

18 Ranko says ... he went away. So let them go ...

19 Radovan Karadzic: Why don't you rub Simovic and Ranko a

20 little bit?

21 Momcilo Krajisnik: Well, I told them today, I was very angry.

22 Do you realise, people ... can you understand what is going on? You don't

23 have the right to convey this information. How can you do this? And then

24 they said, well, you know, they said they got in -- well, I said, you

25 can't explain it in that way.

1 MR. TIEGER: And Your Honour, the -- Your Honours, the second clip

2 begins on page 5 toward --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do that, Mr. Tieger, could you have a look

4 at the third page out of 7, semi-last box, where it says: "Karadzic

5 Radovan: Nobody of ours took part in it, right?" I missed that in the

6 transcript. There's no need to pay specifically attention to it but I

7 just note that it's missing.

8 Perhaps you can first ask the witness whether he heard that and

9 then perhaps later on everyone can check.

10 Mr. Trbojevic, we have a written transcript of this telephone

11 conversation and just before the participation in the meeting was dealt

12 with, in our transcript, it reads as follows, Mr. Krajisnik says: "One

13 member of the government and one of the Presidency were suggested, two

14 government members and one Presidency member, each should be of a

15 different nationality. And I get the document today, it is incredible."

16 And then in the transcript, it says, "Radovan Karadzic: Nobody of

17 ours took part in it, right?" And then the next line is: "Krajisnik

18 Momcilo: Milan Trbojevic took part in it. I called then, Ranko was there

19 for 15 minutes..." That line where it reads, Radovan Karadzic to say,

20 "Nobody of ours took part of it, right?" Did you hear that?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

23 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Trbojevic, before we -- well, let's play the

24 second clip and then I'll ask some questions about the intercept

25 generally. And again the continuation can be found beginning at page 5

1 toward the bottom in the English translation.

2 [Intercept played]

3 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]:

4 Momcilo Krajisnik: Listen, Radovan ... come on, please, I

5 advise you to sit down ... I don't know really where since our club up

6 there is working.

7 Radovan Karadzic: If it doesn't work maybe my place would be

8 better.

9 Momcilo Krajisnik: Okay, we'll speak later, I'll call you at

10 home ... all right. And let's try to organise it.

11 Radovan Karadzic: I go home now, to get some rest, I hope

12 Buha is not there, probably he isn't.

13 Momcilo Krajisnik: I don't know. I will organise those you

14 think I should, and then will let you know, right?

15 Radovan Karadzic: Shall we call Milan, then?

16 Momcilo Krajisnik: What?

17 Radovan Karadzic: Shall we call Milan also?

18 Momcilo Krajisnik: I don't think that's necessary.

19 Radovan Karadzic: All right, we'll take Biljana and Nikola,

20 you and me.

21 Momcilo Krajisnik: Well, you can call him since he is

22 important in that commission, you know. ... You -- why don't you see who

23 needs to be there and then let's talk.

24 Radovan Karadzic: I will.

25 Momcilo Krajisnik: Okay. I will be home and then I will

1 come.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Also here it seems that parts are missing, Mr. Tieger

3 from our transcript. For example, I didn't -- I don't see -- for example,

4 after it says "Shall we call Milan also," then it continues, "Well, you

5 can call him since he is important in that commission, you know."

6 Therefore, two lines are missing, both the line "I think it's not

7 necessary," and "Okay, we can take Biljana, Nikola, you and me." Those

8 are not appearing in the transcript.

9 MR. TIEGER: I think that's correct, Your Honour, although I

10 recall hearing that translation.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then -- well, then if that's --

12 MR. TIEGER: If it's necessary to play it again to clarify the

13 record, I don't --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'd like to have this replayed again because I

15 don't remember -- my attention was drawn to it since I didn't hear it when

16 I was reading.

17 Let's play the clip again, at least if that's possible without ...

18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]:

19 Momcilo Krajisnik: Listen, Radovan ... Come on, please, I

20 suggest that we sit down and talk. I don't know where since our club is

21 working.

22 Radovan Karadzic: It doesn't work, maybe my place would be

23 best.

24 Momcilo Krajisnik: All right, let's speak later, I'll call

25 you at home. Try to organise it.

1 Radovan Karadzic: I will go home now and take some rest, I

2 hope Buha is not there, probably he isn't.

3 Momcilo Krajisnik: I don't know. Why don't you gather who

4 you think should be there and let me know, please.

5 Radovan Karadzic: Shall we call Milan, then?

6 Momcilo Krajisnik: What?

7 Radovan Karadzic: Shall we call Milan?

8 Momcilo Krajisnik: I don't think that's necessary.

9 Radovan Karadzic: All right, then let's get Biljana, Nikola,

10 you and me.

11 Momcilo Krajisnik: Well, you can call him since he's

12 important in that commission, you know.

13 Radovan Karadzic: Yes.

14 Momcilo Krajisnik: Why don't you see who needs to be there

15 and then we will talk. Will you call me?

16 Radovan Karadzic: I will.

17 Momcilo Krajisnik: Will you be at home?

18 Radovan Karadzic: Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. First of all, Mr. Trbojevic, did you recognise the voices of the

22 speakers?

23 A. I think that it is Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik.

24 Q. And you're mentioned in that conversation, as we could hear, and

25 also the Constitutional Commission. Can you provide us with some further

1 understanding of what you understood that conversation to be about and

2 what you recall taking place at that time and your involvement in it.

3 A. I have to confess that I don't know what this was about. This was

4 probably one of numerous meetings where issues were discussed, certain

5 material arriving from all kinds of places. Based on this conversation, I

6 can see that at the time, I gave an explanation and that it was agreed

7 that all of these discussions had to be summarised and then further

8 discussed, but I really couldn't tell you anything more about which parts

9 of the Constitution, did this involve Constitution at all, I truly do not

10 remember that.

11 Q. Is it, however, more broadly a reflection of your work in

12 connection with the Constitutional Commission you mentioned to us earlier?

13 A. Most likely. This was most likely part of my duties. Based on

14 this conversation, I provided an explanation to the effect that this had

15 not been completed and that opinions would be collected from all sides and

16 that we would continue discussions. This probably had to do with some

17 technical issues, positions, guidelines, how we ought to proceed, and so

18 on. And it seems that it was expected that this would be further

19 discussed and then decided upon later. Right now, I really couldn't tell

20 you what this platform was about.

21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm going to next move on to the other

22 conversation I spoke about, unless the Court had a question earlier, so I

23 didn't want to cut off any question the Court might have, otherwise I'm

24 about to move on to the next conversation.

25 JUDGE ORIE: You may move on.

1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, that can be found at tab 69, binder 2.

2 [Intercept played].

3 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]:

4 Milan Trbojevic: Good evening.

5 Ljiljana Karadzic: Good evening.

6 Milan Trbojevic: This is Milan Trbojevic.

7 Ljiljana Karadzic: Oh, Milan, how are you?

8 Milan Trbojevic: What's up?

9 Ljiljana Karadzic: Well, I couldn't tell you myself - I spent

10 the entire day in Pale and at work ...

11 Milan Trbojevic: I was in Pale as well.

12 Ljiljana Karadzic: Oh, really? ... Yes, I was in the former S

13 house.

14 Milan Trbojevic: Oh, I was in the municipality building.

15 Ljiljana Karadzic: I was with these refugees. ... That's

16 really horrible, when you arrive there and you see all the children. ... I

17 really get depressed.

18 Milan Trbojevic: Yes, it's quite unbelievable ...

19 Ljiljana Karadzic: Horrible. I mean, it all seems to be so

20 far away but it's actually very close.

21 Milan Trbojevic: Yes, one wonders what our ethics is all

22 about ... to live a civilian life here.

23 Ljiljana Karadzic: Yes, that's terrible. ... Radovan is here,

24 he arrived maybe 15 minutes ago. All right. Well, I'll let you talk to

25 him. Say hi to everyone at home. Tell Rada that the colleague of mine

1 took two days off so I didn't get to talk to her. ... Good-bye.

2 Milan Trbojevic: Good evening, Radovan.

3 Radovan Karadzic: Good evening.

4 Milan Trbojevic: What are you doing?

5 Radovan Karadzic: Well, I just arrived home. I'm resting.

6 Milan Trbojevic: There must be a lot of work.

7 Radovan Karadzic: No, no problems.

8 Milan Trbojevic: How are you?

9 Radovan Karadzic: I'm all right. What about you?

10 Milan Trbojevic: I'm here at the office.

11 Radovan Karadzic: Is it all right?

12 Milan Trbojevic: I want to write something, it's all right,

13 there is a lot of work. ... Look, I called you the other night, you

14 remember ... when those people from the Jugopetrol came.

15 Radovan Karadzic: Yes.

16 Milan Trbojevic: And then the director of one private

17 company, Strbac, asked me ... because he had some business contacts with

18 them ... and he called me tonight ... after the conversation that you had

19 with them. ... He has a feeling that his status in business relations with

20 them is a bit less favourable.

21 Radovan Karadzic: Less favourable?

22 Milan Trbojevic: Yes.

23 Radovan Karadzic: I didn't mention him at all.

24 Milan Trbojevic: So he would like you, when you have a bit of

25 time, for you to meet with him and me.

1 Radovan Karadzic: Well, what does he have to do with that?

2 Milan Trbojevic: Well, he bought some sort of derivative ...

3 for hospitals and for ... I don't know who else.

4 Radovan Karadzic: And he bought it in what capacity ... for

5 his company?

6 Milan Trbojevic: Yes.

7 Radovan Karadzic: This is his private company.

8 Milan Trbojevic: That's right.

9 Radovan Karadzic: Well, let me tell you we have to put it all

10 under one umbrella. I have to say that I had no idea that it was linked

11 to him. ... We have to put it all under one umbrella because some of our

12 institutions will be funded through that. ...

13 Milan Trbojevic: Well, he would like us to meet with you.

14 Radovan Karadzic: And what is he by profession?

15 Milan Trbojevic: I don't know. He's been in commerce for

16 years.

17 Radovan Karadzic: I have no idea. I didn't mention him at

18 all. I only said that we would soon establish an institution within our

19 Assembly, you know, I couldn't -- I can't tell you about that on the phone

20 but it would go through that so that we could finance our institutions

21 from that. ... So it's not a problem. No, no, no, not a problem at all.

22 I didn't even mention him.

23 Milan Trbojevic: You certainly didn't.

24 Radovan Karadzic: No, no, I wouldn't even remember him. Not

25 at all. Certainly not. It's just that we have to stick to that now, we

1 cannot be left without it. ... And we'll try to include him in our systems

2 and that's all.

3 Milan Trbojevic: So when are we going to talk about it?

4 Radovan Karadzic: One of these days ... after the plebescite

5 is over.

6 Milan Trbojevic: All right.

7 Radovan Karadzic: All right, deal. ... All right. Good-bye.

8 Mr. Trbojevic, can you tell us, please, who is speaking and what

9 the conversation is generally about.

10 A. It was Mr. Karadzic and myself. Obviously, I called. This

11 conversation, in my deep conviction, is about trade and it has nothing to

12 do with the activities of this Tribunal. Branko Strbac is a man who is

13 deceased now, he died in the meantime. He was a person who was involved

14 in trade and I met him in the corridors of courts as an accused person in

15 different cases. We had known each other for years. He was involved in

16 trade.

17 Q. I appreciate you were attempting to answer my question as best you

18 could, but since you indicate the details of the conversation may not be

19 of interest, I just want to ask you generally about the subject matter of

20 attempting to finance institutions. Mr. Karadzic said, "We'll soon have

21 to put everything in one basket because that's what some institutions --

22 or some institutions will be funded by that."

23 Was there generally an effort at this time to find methods of

24 funding for the SDS and the institutions of the SDS or institutions that

25 would arise from ongoing efforts?

1 A. You heard that he said during this telephone conversation, "I

2 cannot tell you now but work is being done on it." I don't know what the

3 SDS intended to do and how to secure its financing. I know specifically

4 that I was asked to prepare and carry out the registration of a company

5 which would actually be a stock company and it was the members of the SDS

6 who would be the shareholders. You know what the procedure is like in a

7 court of law in this respect, to fill out different forms, to have a

8 meeting of shareholders, to have minutes about this, so -- and to submit

9 all of that in court.

10 So a company was set up, it was called Novi Privrednik. Now, what

11 it did and how much of their revenue they gave to the SDS or whether they

12 gave any of their revenues to the SDS is something that I don't know about

13 because I was not a member of the board or anything in that company. I

14 simply knew that it was there. After I took care of the registration, I

15 had no further contact with this.

16 And in this context, this Strbac asked me to bring him into touch

17 with Karadzic because he wanted to be one of the trading partners of the

18 said company. That was it. In that respect, I really have no further

19 knowledge how long the company functioned, whether there are any written

20 traces today in the court documents. I know that I sent the decision on

21 the registration of this company by fax to Mr. Aleksimilovic [phoen] in

22 Pale sometime in the beginning of 1992. Now, was the seat of the company

23 later moved to Bijeljina or somewhere else is something that I really

24 don't know about.

25 Q. Yes, thank you, sir. I'd like to ask you to look at another

1 document that involves the issue of funding, and that can be found at tab

2 114 in binder 4.

3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, to clarify, I'm only seeking the

4 admission of the -- and only directing the witness's attention to the copy

5 of the contract that is found in the article, and although the article is

6 translated, it would be my intention to simply have the rest of the

7 English translation essentially deleted, unless the Court feels it's

8 necessary for context, and just focus on that contract itself.

9 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, I recognise that the copy is a bit small, but I'm

10 hoping you can make it out. It reflects a contract signed in Sarajevo on

11 the 21st of November, 1991 by a Bauxite Milici represented by general

12 manager Rajko Djukic and by the President of the SDS, Dr. Karadzic, for

13 the supply of oil. And it indicates in part in Article 2 that Bauxite

14 Milici hereby undertakes to pay to the Serbian Democratic Party of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina as reimbursement for the said position and right the

16 sum of 3 dinars per each litre of so acquired fuel.

17 Mr. Trbojevic, do you know whether or not this contract

18 represented another effort to find funding for the institutions of the

19 SDS?

20 A. No, I've never seen this contract and I don't know about this

21 effort. I'm not familiar with this at all that the SDS gave this

22 possibility to Milici to do so and how this was done. I really don't know

23 anything about this.

24 Q. Did you know Mr. Djukic?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And who was he?

2 A. Djukic was the director of this mine, Milici. Milici is a very

3 small town. Most of the people are employed in the mine so the mine is

4 everything, really. They built a pool for the community and many other

5 things, and Milici lives on the profitability of the mine and the director

6 of the mine is the main person in town.

7 Now, was he the president of the executive committee of the Serb

8 Democratic Party or something like that, at any rate, he was a high

9 official of the SDS but I'm not sure whether I gave you his exact title.

10 I met him a few times during the war and after the war. He's still the

11 director. Even now, he's still the director of that mine.

12 Q. And I note also that in Article 1 of the contract, it indicates

13 that the SDS undertakes to ensure for Bauxite the position of chief

14 supplier of oil and oil derivatives for Bosnia-Herzegovina through

15 Jugopetrol, and I recall that in the intercept we listened to involving

16 the -- the conversation between you and Dr. Karadzic, you mentioned to him

17 that -- you mentioned to him people from Jugopetrol, and I wondered if

18 that refreshed your recollection at all about either general efforts by

19 the SDS to work with Jugopetrol on the supply of oil to fund institutions

20 or more specifically to Djukic's involvement in that?

21 A. Unfortunately, I don't know anything about any of this.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 A. I mentioned Jugopetrol because I probably heard it from Strbac,

24 that the representatives of Jugopetrol were there and said that they would

25 be selling oil through the SDS or somebody else but I really don't know

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10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

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1 about that. I don't know.

2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it may be that in light of those

3 answers -- it's not a big issue, but I confess I'm slightly puzzled by the

4 suggestion to delete part of the English translation of this article. I

5 suggest that either part of the article is deleted altogether from both

6 the B/C/S and English as irrelevant or neither.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I understood that only the contract would

8 be in evidence as published in a newspaper article, and that would be true

9 both for the B/C/S and for the English translation.

10 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, that's right.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. TIEGER:

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Trbojevic. If I can turn your attention now to

14 something you mentioned earlier, and that was your departure from Sarajevo

15 and your arrival in Pale, which I think you indicated was around the

16 middle moving into the latter part of May, 1992.

17 A. Around the 20th.

18 Q. Did Mr. -- were you -- may I ask you this: Were you contacted by

19 Mr. Djeric or anyone else before you left Sarajevo? In other words, while

20 you were in Sarajevo, were you asked to come to Pale?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And once you arrived in Pale, were you approached by Mr. Djeric or

23 by someone else?

24 A. Branko Djeric.

25 Q. What was Mr. Djeric's position at the time?

1 A. He was Prime Minister of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 Q. And did he ask you to assume or undertake a certain position?

3 A. He said that he wanted me to be Deputy Prime Minister and that he

4 would ask Karadzic and Krajisnik for their consent. And he asked for my

5 consent in this respect, and I agreed.

6 Q. And did Mr. Djeric obtain consent from Mr. Karadzic and

7 Mr. Krajisnik for your selection and did you then assume the position?

8 A. Well, I don't know whether he talked to both of them or whether he

9 talked to them at all, but I think that Karadzic signed the decision on my

10 appointment. As far as I can remember, that is.

11 Q. Let me just mention, if I may, a portion of the -- of one of the

12 conversations you had with the Office of the Prosecutor earlier and see if

13 that refreshes your recollection about the conversation that you had with

14 Mr. Djeric in that connection.

15 That portion can be found in the interview of March -- the March

16 interview at page 8. And at that time, Mr. Trbojevic, in discussing the

17 conversation you had with Mr. Djeric when he asked you to assume the

18 position of Deputy Prime Minister, you said, "Djeric told me that Karadzic

19 and Krajisnik gave their consent."

20 Does that refresh your recollection about that conversation and

21 what you were told by Mr. Djeric at that time?

22 A. Well, I cannot state with certainty even today whether he already

23 had this consent for my appointment or whether he would get it

24 subsequently. Believe me, it wasn't that important to me. So I didn't

25 really think about it. I cannot say even today whether he said we had

1 agreed that I should make this proposal to you or whether he said, "Do I

2 have your consent to make this proposal?" I really cannot say.

3 Both options are possible, but I really don't know now.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could the witness's

5 microphone please be turned on. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djeric --

7 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Trbojevic, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm sorry. Mr. Trbojevic, you spent a lot of

9 words in answering that question. You were confronted with the lines

10 reading, "Djeric told me that Karadzic and Krajisnik gave their consent."

11 Did he tell you? Did he say so to you? I'm not asking whether he got the

12 consent, whether he got it prior, whether he got it later, whether he

13 didn't get it at all. The question is just: Did Mr. Djeric tell you that

14 he got the consent of Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In all honesty, I cannot make any

16 categorical statements to you now. What was important for me was that

17 this consent was there and that I would stay there and do something. Now,

18 whether he got the consent before talking to me or after that or whether

19 it happened the same day or -- I really cannot ...

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please, I precisely told you that I was not asking

21 whether they got -- he got the consent but whether he told you that he had

22 got it.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He certainly said that, but I cannot

24 tell you now whether he said that before talking to me or afterwards.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So he told you that he got the consent of

1 Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. -- Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik. Now, part of your

2 previous answer was, you said, "What was important for me was that this

3 consent was there and that I would stay there and do something." Would

4 that mean that, without this consent, you were not confident that you

5 could stay and do something?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

9 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, you recall the date of your formal appointment and

11 perhaps it's not necessary to take time to show an exhibit that indicates

12 your formal appointment as Deputy Prime Minister on the 8th of June, but

13 let me ask you if you began to serve informally as Deputy Prime Minister

14 before that point.

15 A. I started immediately on an informal basis, immediately after that

16 conversation.

17 Q. Can you give us some idea of your --

18 A. Or actually, I started working formally but without a formal

19 appointment.

20 Q. Can you give us some ideas of your duties and responsibilities as

21 Deputy Prime Minister?

22 A. At that moment, as for any precise formulations of the authority

23 vested in the Deputy Prime Minister, there weren't any. I don't know when

24 the law on government and the law on ministries was passed, where this is

25 specified, that is.

1 Q. And I'm -- let me -- we may well move into that, and I apologise

2 for an ambiguous question. What I had in mind, actually, was what kind of

3 work did you undertake as Deputy Prime Minister? What did you do, who did

4 you meet with, what sorts of activities were you engaged in after you

5 assumed the position of Deputy Prime Minister?

6 A. Practically -- at that time, cabinet meetings were held

7 practically every day, so I immediately had to face many problems that the

8 government was dealing with. All sorts of problems, all sorts of types of

9 problems with different contents.

10 So there were consultations every day with the ministers, with

11 certain working groups that were preparing some regulations, with

12 practical problems due to the relocation of schools, universities, then

13 the need to establish a service that would control the border, like a

14 customs service. Then there were attempts made to establish contact with

15 the government of Serbia and the government of Yugoslavia because

16 companies from our territory had parts of their companies in their

17 territory. Now, what would happen to them?

18 There were efforts made for companies that were in our territory

19 to go on working, and so on and so forth.

20 Q. Did you attend sessions of the Assembly of the Serbian People?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you -- you mentioned earlier you served on the Constitutional

23 Commission in the joint Assembly, did you continue to work on

24 constitutional issues and did you serve on any related commission in the

25 -- associated with the Bosnian Serb Assembly?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And did you attend meetings in connection with that commission?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What, exactly, was that commission attempting to do, briefly?

5 A. Well, you see, there are written documents. I think that twice,

6 we adopted amendments to the Constitution. We discussed that, I mean

7 these materials, and I think that all of that was adopted. Everything

8 that was done was ultimately included in the text of the Constitution.

9 Q. Was there a chairperson of that commission?

10 A. Mr. Krajisnik was chairman as president of the Assembly.

11 Q. And who else was a member of the commission or attended the

12 meetings of the commission?

13 A. Karadzic attended some of the sessions. I know that Mr. Vojo

14 Maksimovic was there. I know that Professor - the name escapes me now,

15 and he was mentioned in that first telephone conversation - Gaso

16 Mijanovic. Then Dr. Radomir Lukic. As for MPs, I cannot remember now who

17 could have been there.

18 Q. Do you recall if Dr. Koljevic attended meetings of the commission?

19 A. I don't know now. Possibly, but believe me, I'm not sure.

20 Q. And again, let me direct your attention to a portion of your

21 previous discussion, one of your previous discussions with the Office of

22 the Prosecutor that can be found at page 17 of the March transcript. You

23 were discussing the commission and you indicated that, "... as a member of

24 the commission, we were often having discussion on amendments of the

25 Constitution and the presiding, the chairperson, Mr. Krajisnik. Very

1 often also Mr. Karadzic was present."

2 Then the conversation continues, and you say, "As I said, I recall

3 talking to, or discussing constitutional amendments on several occasions,

4 that Krajisnik was the chairperson most of the times, that Karadzic was

5 also present, Koljevic was also very often present ..."

6 Is that consistent with your recollection, sir, of those meetings

7 of the Constitutional Commission?

8 A. I have to tell you, Mr. Koljevic is someone who was a friend of my

9 parents, so every time he and I met, there was a lot of pleasant

10 sentiments involved and I was always very happy to meet him, to sit next

11 to him. Frequently, we would attend the same meetings, cabinet meetings

12 and so on. Now, as to whether he sat next to me in certain meetings of

13 the Constitutional Commission, I couldn't say, but it is probable.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Trbojevic, could I ask you to carefully listen to

15 the question and to focus on answering that. The question was not whether

16 you were sitting next to Mr. Koljevic. That's a matter you introduced

17 yourself. The question was whether it's your recollection, as you stated

18 before, that Koljevic was also very often present in this committee. So

19 that's the question.

20 What you did, as a matter of fact, is explaining on your mutual

21 background why it would be so nice to sit next to him, and then you

22 answered the question you put yourself, whether you were sitting next to

23 him. The question was whether Mr. Koljevic was present often.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is it is very likely;

25 however, I cannot claim whether that was once, twice, or on more

1 occasions.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So there is no doubt, as I understand you, that

3 he was at least one time present, and whether it was more times, you do

4 not recollect.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. I note the time.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger.

9 We will adjourn until 11.00, not a quarter past 11.00 but 11.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

12 JUDGE ORIE: In respect of -- Mr. Tieger, will we hear any further

13 intercepts, or ...

14 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then I don't have to make any observation in that

16 respect.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. TIEGER: Two quick matters before I do. First, I would note

19 that we were able to provide the Defence with the requested hyperlink

20 table during the break.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 MR. TIEGER: A CD. And second, perhaps I could, at this time,

23 tender at least for identification the transcripts of the interviews we've

24 been referring to and it may be best, although I leave that to the

25 Registry, to have them marked as tab 115 rather than making a new exhibit.

1 MR. STEWART: I just express my thanks for the prompt provision

2 for the hyperlinked CD, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any further observation in respect of the

4 transcript of the interviews?

5 Then you said you have tab 115, that is -- yes, the same four

6 binders then. Yes, these are two interviews.

7 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Your Honour, one dated 23 March

8 2004 --

9 JUDGE ORIE: The Judges have them, so there's no need to again

10 distribute ...

11 Madam Registrar, a problem is they don't fit in the binder any

12 more.

13 Madam Registrar has a better suggestion.

14 THE REGISTRAR: The interview dated 23 March 2004 will be P583A,

15 and the interview 4 May 2004 will be P583B.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

17 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, before the recess, you had mentioned, among other

19 things, the meetings that were taking place in Pale and had referred, I

20 believe, to cramped quarters or people being cramped and perhaps you can

21 describe the location and physical layout of the places where the members

22 of the Bosnian Serb authorities with whom you were meeting were located.

23 A. In the very beginning, there was a building. When one leaves Pale

24 on the way to Jahorina, it was on the right-hand side. It was a longish

25 building, a motel of the company whose seat was in Kikinda as a result of

1 which the motel itself was called Kikinda Motel.

2 There, in a room, in a small room, individual meetings took place

3 attended by several persons. That room, as far as I could see, was also

4 used by Mr. Koljevic and Mr. Krajisnik.

5 In addition to that, there was another larger room where a dozen

6 or so people could fit. So sometimes meetings attended by ten or so

7 people would take place. That lasted for a short period of time.

8 After that, we transferred to the Hotel Bistrica in Jahorina,

9 which is where the seat of the cabinet was. In that building, there was

10 sufficient room; there were several rooms which could accommodate minister

11 cabinets and there was also a cafeteria there. There was usually quite a

12 crowd there.

13 Then in another building called the Panorama Hotel, there were

14 offices where Mr. Krajisnik, Koljevic, Mrs. Plavsic, Mr. Karadzic, the

15 secretary of the Assembly were. And in addition, there was a small

16 conference room there as well. Occasionally, we would hold meetings in

17 that conference room, such as the meetings of the Constitutional

18 Commission and so on. That's what the situation was like.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please.

20 MR. TIEGER:

21 Q. And how far apart was the Hotel Bistrica than the Panorama Hotel

22 and Kikinda Motel?

23 A. Well, the Panorama is on the road going from Pale to Sarajevo.

24 That's where it is located, some 500 to 600 meters away. I never really

25 analysed this but definitely not more than a kilometre.

1 As for the distance between Kikinda and the Jahorina mount, that

2 is probably some 10 kilometres away. The Hotel Bistrica is 10 kilometres

3 away.

4 Q. When you say, "We transferred to the Hotel Bistrica in Jahorina,"

5 who were you referring to as "we"?

6 A. I'm referring to Branko Djeric, myself, the secretary of the

7 government cabinet, Mr. Lokic, several ministers. Velibor Ostojic was

8 there, Ljubomir Zukovic, Bogdan Subotic, Petar Markovic, the minister of

9 finance. I don't know if I omitted some names. There were probably

10 others but I cannot remember them now.

11 Q. And do you recall approximately when that move took place?

12 A. Well, I couldn't say with precision. Probably in the course of

13 June 1992. I'm not sure about that, but I think in early summer.

14 Q. Now, during this period of time, Mr. Trbojevic, did you have an

15 opportunity to see the various figures you've mentioned interact with one

16 another at meetings and -- both formal and informal?

17 A. I don't know what you are referring to specifically. We were all

18 there in one building. I'm referring to the cabinet members now. We met

19 almost daily in various government meetings. And in preparation for

20 meetings, we naturally had contacts with each other. Contacts at various

21 levels; sometimes we would meet at lunch, sometimes we would have coffee

22 together, and sometimes we discussed such issues as who was going to what

23 location, what problems we had so that we could attempt to solve them

24 together. Everybody communicated with everybody else, if that's what

25 you're referring to.

1 Q. Now, you've mentioned many figures in the various organs of the

2 Bosnian Serb authorities. Can you tell the Court who the most powerful

3 and most important or most influential person or persons were among the

4 Bosnian Serb leaders?

5 A. The question is quite unspecific. You want me to give you my

6 assessment or my opinion about certain things that may or may not be in my

7 memory any longer.

8 Q. Let me ask the question this way then: In 1992, who, among the

9 people you mentioned, or anyone else that you haven't mentioned, exercised

10 power over the policies and organs of the Bosnian Serb authorities?

11 A. You see, the principles were set forth in the Constitution that

12 there were three branches of government: Judicial, executive, and

13 legislative, and that they were all separate from each other. It is my

14 assertion that all of us took the position that this is how it ought to

15 be, and this is what needs to be ensured. I claim that all of us in the

16 government wanted for the rule of law to prevail and in a situation where

17 the country was in chaos, where there was lack of communication lines and

18 so on, it was very difficult to ensure that.

19 Therefore, the Assembly was an organ that met frequently in those

20 war times. This organ did take position concerning the most important

21 issues, including the negotiations. The Assembly consisted mostly of the

22 MPs from the SDS, which means that the political authority was in the

23 hands of that party.

24 There were several MPs who were not members of the SDS. I,

25 myself, was on the SDS ticket but was not in their organs. So us who were

1 in that situation took on the role of some sort of the opposition, which

2 was quite impotent under the circumstances.

3 Now, as to the military organs, which represented the power, the

4 force, and if you're asking me about the authority of the police, which

5 originally was intended to ensure internal law and order, these are all

6 relative issues.

7 As for the government, we had the minister of defence there, who,

8 at least from the outside, didn't seem to have a lot of authority. Now,

9 as to his relations with the General Staff and the Supreme Command, this

10 is something that we, in the government, knew nothing about. There was

11 also minister of police, who had a certain amount of raw force at his

12 disposal, and either by way of regulations or by way of pragmatic

13 situation, he was in contact with other members of the cabinet but again

14 represented the force that was not under the control of the government.

15 Now, what could the various inspection organs do? Not much. The

16 parties didn't have a chance to file complaints and so on because this was

17 wartime. Therefore, the government turned into a firefighting service, so

18 to speak.

19 The Assembly was a forum where political life of Republika Srpska

20 unfolded. And as for what Krajisnik and Karadzic did in order to

21 formulate the position of the SDS, I really couldn't say anything about

22 that because I was not a member of the party and I did not personally

23 attend those meetings.

24 To what extent negotiations with international figures affected

25 the formulation of their official position, and to what extent that

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1 official position again was under the influence of the people from

2 Belgrade, I couldn't say anything about that. What I can say is that the

3 government of Republika Srpska had no cooperation with the government of

4 Yugoslavia or Serbia. They did not see the government of Republika Srpska

5 as a government. But the governors of central banks from one place and

6 the other would meet, you know, when there were issues to be discussed.

7 There were also some contacts concerning commerce.

8 Q. Let me stop you at this point and try to focus us a bit more.

9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask a question,

10 please. I'd like to know how many members there were in the Assembly.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I remember correctly, there were

12 82 MPs.

13 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And you said, Witness, that they

14 were not all members of the SDS. How many members were not members of the

15 SDS?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact percentage,

17 but less than 10. Less than 10 MPs were not members of the SDS. If I'm

18 not mistaken, there were 7 of them.

19 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Those who were not members of the

20 SDS, were they able to air their views?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes. We were critical. We

22 expressed our proposals, which are reflected in the minutes; however, that

23 did not affect the decision making, the voting on various issues.

24 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Did they have a total freedom of

25 expression, or if they were to air their views freely, did this trigger an

1 aggressive response?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say that there were

3 aggressive reactions. They were individual expressions that were,

4 perhaps, improper but I don't think there were any aggressive reactions.

5 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] There were no penalties imposed?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Later on, they started

7 expelling certain individuals from the Assembly, but in this other period

8 that we are discussing now, there were no sanctions.

9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

10 MR. TIEGER:

11 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, was there a person or persons who were -- who was

12 or were regarded as the leader or leaders of the Bosnian Serbs?

13 A. That, again, is a matter of personal view.

14 Q. I'm asking you, Mr. Trbojevic, based on your position as deputy

15 minister, your many contacts with the various members of the Bosnian Serb

16 authorities, your discussions with them, with the leader or leaders of the

17 Bosnian Serbs.

18 A. I will tell you that the broadest view was that Karadzic was the

19 leader. In Serbian language, we have an expression, a term, Vozd, which

20 is an old Slavonic term for a leader. So this term Vozd was popular among

21 the people because it carries certain weight.

22 In Banja Luka, we had a chairman of the local SDS, Dr. - his name

23 escapes me now - who liked to refer to himself as the Krajina Vozd, the

24 Krajina leader, which, naturally, had no practical significance.

25 But if you ask me, based on what I heard and what I saw, who was

1 the leader among the leading figures in Republika Srpska, I think that

2 that term could only be applied to Karadzic.

3 Q. And was there any person with whom Dr. Karadzic was particularly

4 close?

5 A. It is my impression that Dr. Karadzic had the closest, friendliest

6 relations with Dr. Koljevic. As for the efforts aimed at creating

7 Republika Srpska, conducting all the negotiations, all the affairs,

8 contacts, and relations with the Assembly, then if we are referring to

9 that, then naturally, he cooperated most frequently with Mr. Krajisnik.

10 I have to say that in their conduct and in their contacts - and

11 here I'm referring to Krajisnik and Karadzic - Krajisnik manifested in all

12 situations that Karadzic was the president, that he was the supreme

13 leader, and that he had the last say. He never allowed himself to oppose

14 Karadzic in front of other people, even when he did not share his views.

15 I think that he did his best in order to express any different views to

16 Karadzic when they were alone rather than in front of the Assembly. At

17 least, this is how I saw it.

18 Q. Would you say, based on your observations of the two of them, that

19 they were -- that they had a close relationship and worked closely

20 together?

21 A. I think that they cooperated very closely. Now, as to whether

22 they were truly close, personally, I couldn't say. I don't think that

23 they were.

24 Q. May I direct your attention, Mr. Trbojevic, to a passage during

25 your second interview with the Office of the Prosecutor, in May, and I'm

1 referring to page 33 of that interview in the English translation, in

2 which you said in the middle portion of the page, it appears after the

3 first time your name is indicated in the left, "They were very close to

4 each other. I don't know what it was like before, but I know since that

5 trial and after that they were in detention, and since then, they became

6 like two bodies and one soul, and in that kind of community, it was my

7 impression that Krajisnik was like the major part of their basis."

8 What did you mean when you said, "They were like two bodies in one

9 soul"?

10 A. I used a figure of speech there. The two of them had a certain

11 position, as far as we could tell. They had the same political position

12 and there was no divergence there between the two of them.

13 As for the political orientation and political activities and how

14 they ought to be guided, it is my belief that the two of them had an

15 absolutely identical position regarding that. And as far as that is

16 concerned, this is what I meant when I said that there were two bodies and

17 one soul.

18 Q. You also said that it was your impression that, "Krajisnik was

19 like the major part of their basis." Can you tell us what you meant by

20 that, please.

21 A. I don't know whether I put it that way exactly, the way it's

22 written there, and I don't know actually what is written there, but this

23 is what I meant ...

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Trbojevic, if you feel more confident that we

25 check that on the tape, we'll do that. If there's really -- if you have

1 any hesitation as to this is what you said, we can check that on the basis

2 of the tape.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not hesitating. I'm not hesitating,

4 there is no need. I can explain this.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, perhaps you literally then confront

6 Mr. Trbojevic with the parts and tell him that this is a quote from the

7 translation made from the tape.

8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. Perhaps that clarification

9 suggested by the Court is indeed quite helpful.

10 Q. I was reading to you from the transcript from the tape during

11 which questions were posed to you in English by the OTP representative and

12 you answered in B/C/S and it was translated by the interpreter.

13 Again, I was reading from the transcript of the interview, at page

14 33 of the May interview, where you said, "Since then, they became like two

15 bodies and one soul, and in that kind of community ..."

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, my attention is drawn to it. We'd like

17 the witness to be confronted with the whole of this paragraph and perhaps

18 I'll read it to you slowly, Mr. Trbojevic.

19 The question put to you by Mr. Margetts was: "Your observations

20 at the time was that Krajisnik was more organised and an effective

21 decision maker." That is what is at least said to be a question, whether

22 it was a question is another matter.

23 Then you responded: "Yes, I was convinced in that. They were

24 very close to each other. I don't know what was like before, but I know

25 since that trial and after that they were in detention, and since then

1 they became like two bodies and one soul, and in that kind of community,

2 it was my impression that Krajisnik was, like, the major part of their

3 basis. I had opportunity to see, like, when Krajisnik would have some

4 remark, Karadzic would change his attitude. I didn't see the vice versa.

5 It was nothing ... It was reference to nothing important, but that is

6 something that makes ... that shows the relation between people."

7 That is recorded as your answer.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I'm saying today as

9 well.

10 MR. TIEGER:

11 Q. Between the two of them, Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik, were you

12 able to observe who was the more organised of the two, who was the more

13 effective of the two?

14 MR. STEWART: They are two different words, two different concepts

15 and, therefore, two different questions.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I think -- well, let's -- put the

17 question as you want it but not two different questions in one.

18 MR. TIEGER:

19 Q. Were you able to observe who was the more organised of the two,

20 Mr. Trbojevic?

21 A. I said during that interview, and it's not hard for me to confirm

22 it once again: Mr. Karadzic seemed like a totally disorganised person; a

23 person who does not take notes, a person who does not collect documents, a

24 person who has no system in his work. At least, that's what I saw and

25 that's my assessment.

1 Mr. Krajisnik, though, is a person who writes down what he agreed

2 upon, with who, what he planned, what he wants to resolve. So he shows

3 that there is something systematic in his attitude towards the work that

4 he does. That is why I had the impression, that is my deep conviction,

5 that Mr. Krajisnik, compared to Mr. Karadzic, is far more organised,

6 systematic, more reliable if you agree on something with him, and that

7 would be it.

8 Q. Based on your observations of the two of them as you described

9 them, including the opportunity to see Mr. Krajisnik making a remark and

10 Mr. Karadzic changing his attitude, including Mr. Krajisnik's

11 organisational qualities in comparison to Mr. Karadzic, who appeared to

12 you, between the two of them, to be the leader, if one could be said to be

13 the leader rather than the other?

14 A. There was no dilemma there. Karadzic was the supreme chieftain,

15 if I can put it that way. If there was anybody who was in charge, it was

16 Radovan Karadzic. There was not the least bit of a dilemma there.

17 Q. So can you explain, then, exactly what you meant when you said --

18 and I'm referring now to page 22 and 23: "My personal impression is and

19 many other people would agree with my feelings that, in the unity of the

20 two of them, Krajisnik was much better organised, much more efficient, and

21 if anybody was a leader, it was Krajisnik who was leading Karadzic."

22 A. That is my assessment of their private relationship, if I can put

23 it that way. The relationship in which the two of them are not the

24 president of the republic and the president of the Assembly, they are

25 people who socialise, they both have their own jobs, and in this

1 relationship, in my deep conviction, Krajisnik was more superior because

2 he was more systematic, as I said. He would stand by what he would

3 promise. He would prepare what needed to be prepared. And that would,

4 indeed, be prepared most probably.

5 Whereas that was not the case with Karadzic. If you agreed on

6 something with Karadzic, that meant that you'd have to remind him of it,

7 that you'd have to see whether he actually did initiate something, whether

8 it had gotten to a point where it was supposed to be, and so on and so

9 forth.

10 What I meant was the relationship between the two of them. It is

11 my deep conviction that Krajisnik was more thorough, more focused, and

12 vis-a-vis the outside world, Karadzic was someone who had a charisma, a

13 charm, the ability to manipulate masses, if you will, now that we're

14 talking about my impressions, that is.

15 Q. Let me ask you, then, about their relationship with others within

16 the Bosnian Serb authorities. What was the extent of the authority that

17 Mr. Karadzic -- or Dr. Karadzic or Mr. Krajisnik had in connection with

18 the deputies of the Assembly?

19 A. Well, I don't know. I can't really say. There was a sentence,

20 for instance: "He is Karadzic's man." And then there would be another

21 sentence: "He is Krajisnik's man." Now, who belonged to who is something

22 people could not know, or rather, I did not have the possibility to know

23 because I was not within this internal system of the Serb Democratic

24 Party. You see, that pertained to members of the SDS, members of

25 municipal committees who'd go to Pale, who'd talk to both of them on most

1 occasions; sometimes separately, sometimes together.

2 Now, who trusted one of them more and the other one less and who

3 cooperated with one of them more and with the other one less is something

4 that I cannot really tell you.

5 Q. At page 8 of the May interview, Mr. Trbojevic, you said -- and

6 again this appears in the first -- after the first specific reference

7 where your initials appear, that would be the second full paragraph,

8 second sentence: "It is a fact that ..."

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'd like to confront the witness with the

10 -- with his statement then in the context. I'll read it to you.

11 You were asked about in 90 per cent effective control by

12 Krajisnik, or at least the vast majority of the deputies. Your answer

13 was: "I don't know how did we understand each other, then. It is a fact

14 that Krajisnik and Karadzic had something what was like very close to the

15 absolute authority. There were discussions at the sessions, at the

16 Assembly, and there were different attitudes and there were

17 confrontations, but when it came like to final attitudes and getting the

18 decisions and I know that there wasn't a single time like that, for

19 example, what two of them would suggest, that Assembly would reject.

20 There was characteristical example, when there was a discussion about

21 signing the peace treaty that Karadzic signed."

22 And then you further explain how that happened in the Assembly,

23 whether they would -- it says "verify," but I take it that it is "ratify,"

24 but at least what was signed on the ship.

25 That's what Mr. Tieger is confronting you with now.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I explained it there what I meant by

2 that. So what are you interested in now?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, perhaps first of all, we are interested in

4 whether you stand by what you said at that time.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that that is exactly the way

6 it was.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'll just draw your attention to it that it's

8 not exactly, to say it very gentle, that you did not phrase your position

9 exactly the same way earlier during your testimony in this courtroom. But

10 perhaps that saves a lot of time.

11 I'd like to confront you with another part of that same statement.

12 We find that on page 10. You were talking about Djeric rejecting

13 something, and then Mr. Margetts said did Djeric, did he reject the fact

14 that his government could not set policy or did he reject the policies

15 that were set by others for the government to implement, or both? Your

16 answer was, "Most likely, it would be both."

17 The next question was: "And who set those policies?"

18 Your answer: "As I ... As I said before, it was by Krajisnik and

19 by Karadzic and that went to the party and went through the Assembly and

20 through the other organs."

21 Then Mr. Margetts said: "So, you are describing the situation

22 where Krajisnik and Karadzic effectively had absolute authority or power

23 in a practical sense over the Presidency, Assembly, and the party."

24 You responded by, "Yes."

25 Do you still stand by the answers you gave in May 2004?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

3 MR. TIEGER:

4 Q. If I could turn your attention to the first interview, at page 30.

5 The question was asked at the top of the page after a discussion about who

6 -- first there had been a discussion about who Subotic, Mandic and

7 Stanisic reported to or didn't report to, and then you were asked by

8 Mr. Margetts: "So operationally you think the Ministry of Internal

9 Affairs, Ministry of Defence, and to some extent Ministry of Justice was

10 being run by Karadzic and Krajisnik?"

11 And you responded: "Yes, the police and the army definitely. And

12 when justice is concerned, Karadzic was in capacity of his authority, the

13 function he had was making decision of appointment. So, practically,

14 justice was also in his hands."

15 Do you stand by that answer as well, sir?

16 A. There's not the slightest bit of dilemma that Karadzic appointed

17 people to positions in the judiciary. It depended on him who would become

18 a judge or prosecutor or who would not. The fact remains that this did go

19 to the Assembly and that the Assembly would confirm it, but people were

20 actually appointed by Karadzic signing this appointment, especially as far

21 as judges were concerned.

22 Now, as far as authority was concerned, Mr. Margetts formulated

23 the question as best suits him. I would not claim that I was a witness of

24 this absolute power and its exercise. I explained to him that all talks

25 about peace negotiations and all decisions that were reached by the

1 Assembly were indeed at the Assembly. Before that, they were probably

2 discussed by the organs of the SDS.

3 I explained that this could not move if this agreed upon by

4 Karadzic or Karadzic and Krajisnik, and perhaps somebody else too, maybe

5 Mrs. Plavsic and maybe Mr. Koljevic, but I did not say the words "absolute

6 power" as Mr. Margetts did in his question.

7 Now, how the decision was made as for the functioning of the

8 military, the army, and then part of the police that, in cases of

9 mobilisation, would become part of the army, that is something that the

10 minister of defence would have to know too.

11 JUDGE ORIE: May I please stop you.

12 I'm a bit confused as to what question you're actually answering

13 to at this moment because in the last question and what was put to you, I

14 did not hear anything about absolute power, whereas it seems that you're

15 commenting on words used by Mr. Margetts during the interview about

16 absolute power.

17 It might be that you are still responding to the previous

18 question, or questions, especially where the words were used "absolute

19 authority." Is that how I have to understand your answer?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I heard, the Prosecutor

21 read Mr. Margetts's question and he used the words "absolute power" in

22 terms of the functioning of the judiciary, the police, and the army. That

23 was the last question.

24 JUDGE ORIE: The words used were -- let me just check that. My

25 recollection is that he used for Mr. Karadzic the words that "justice was

1 in the hands of ..."

2 MR. TIEGER: I would be happy to read the question and answer

3 again.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

5 MR. TIEGER:

6 Q. The question I previously read to you, and the answer,

7 Mr. Trbojevic, was as follows: "Question: So operationally, you think

8 the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Ministry of Defence, and to some

9 extent the Ministry of Justice was being run by Karadzic and Krajisnik."

10 Your answer was: "Yes, the police and the army definitely. And when

11 justice is concerned, Karadzic was in capacity of his authority, the

12 function he had was making decision of appointment. So, practically, the

13 justice was also in his hands."

14 Was that an accurate response to the question, Mr. Trbojevic?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. And you mentioned Mrs. Plavsic in one of your responses and you

17 had mentioned Mr. Koljevic earlier. Let me ask you first if there was a

18 difference in the authority of Dr. Karadzic and Krajisnik on the one hand

19 and the authority of Mrs. Plavsic and anyone else with whom she might be

20 associated on the other; and if so, how great was that difference?

21 A. Well, again, that's a question of my assessment as a spectator. I

22 know that we were preparing a law on the implementation of the

23 Constitution, and what we envisaged there was that before it became

24 possible to elect a president of the republic, there would be a Presidency

25 and that it would consist of two members. The people who were meant were

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1 Mrs. Plavsic and Dr. Koljevic. They were the people who were elected to

2 the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina before the war. So formally, it was

3 considered that they should be the ones who would be the top instance in

4 Republika Srpska.

5 In practice, this was changed. The law was changed, Karadzic was

6 elected, et cetera, et cetera. And now that you're asking me about

7 authority, it is my deep conviction, most sincerely, that Karadzic had its

8 own authority that was high above everybody else, Krajisnik's was below

9 his, and Koljevic and Mrs. Plavsic were leaders of a second or third

10 degree, if I can put it that way. This was the usual assessment made by

11 people who had the opportunity of seeing this.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau would like to put a question to you.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] We are just going to change area

15 a little bit and move to a slightly different subject. I would like to

16 know whether you felt that the Assembly was playing an effective role.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was not a decisive role.

18 The Assembly was the venue where practically all topics were brought up

19 and all dilemmas were aired, all topics that were discussed. But I think

20 the decisions were made under a great deal of pressure from the Serb

21 Democratic Party, and of course Krajisnik and Karadzic were its proponents

22 by the very nature of things.

23 So it can be said that the Assembly was the body that carried out

24 its legislative powers in accordance with the policy charted by the Serb

25 Democratic Party. This was publicly formulated, if I can put it that way.

1 This was the situation as it was and it was opened -- it was obvious.

2 JUDGE ORIE: For those who are not familiar with the Dutch testing

3 system, this kind of sirens, that's always at exactly 12.00 on the first

4 Monday of the month, so no one has to be worried about it. It will take

5 approximately one minute, but I think we can proceed.

6 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I am referring to what you said

7 in your statement, your first statement, on page 20 and 23, you say as

8 follows: [In English] Krajisnik knew very well that his delegates will

9 vote for an issue that he was interested in. Krajisnik was formally with

10 the presiding the chairperson of the Assembly. He was the one who was

11 evaluating the feelings and the climate among the delegates. He was the

12 one who would recess or stop the session if he had a feeling that the

13 climate is not right for the decision to be made the way he felt they

14 should be...

15 [Interpretation] I would like to know what you mean by this, sir.

16 Could you please comment on this.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I wanted to

18 say. I described that example involving the verification of an agreement

19 that Karadzic had signed. We gathered in the hotel called Jahorina at

20 Pale, or whatever the hotel was called, and this was the meeting of the MP

21 club and we had to discuss whether the Assembly would verify or ratify

22 that agreement the following day. One of the MPs asked that the agreement

23 be copied and distributed so that we could see what is it that Karadzic

24 had signed, and then Krajisnik said, "No need to do that. The key points

25 had been taken out of the text and distributed, which is enough in order

1 to inform everybody about the contents." Because naturally, these issues

2 had been discussed earlier.

3 This was a practical approach. So the session of the Assembly

4 started, we entered the room and debated for two days and two nights, and

5 if you hear some dissonant voices to the effect that it ought to be

6 verified, Karadzic, who had already signed that, could not very well come

7 out and say, "I made a mistake." And when it became a little bit

8 suspicious as to how many MPs actually asked that it be verified,

9 Krajisnik said, "Let us stop with the session and once again meet in the

10 caucus." This was already 2.00 a.m. We met in another room and Krajisnik

11 said if we were to postpone this, if we do not actually want to adopt a

12 decision, let us make copies, distribute them to the MPs and postpone this

13 and then meet at a later time, and then postpone it again and then meet

14 again, and then one realised that this was all actually a game.

15 First they didn't want to make copies, but rather, wanted to adopt

16 the decision, and then afterwards, they said, "Okay. Let's make the

17 copies and then postpone the session and decide later on." So this was

18 all just a situation to which I reacted perhaps improperly and left the

19 session, but this was just an example showing that things could be

20 manipulated if the discussion took a wrong course and it could be

21 terminated and then debated further in the club, and then rescheduled the

22 session.

23 I don't think that this is unusual, that this is an unusual

24 practice in various collective bodies, but this is what we discussed.

25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.

1 MR. TIEGER:

2 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, you mentioned Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic as

3 elected representatives to the Presidency of the Socialist Republic of

4 Bosnia and Herzegovina who later became part of the Presidency of

5 Republika Srpska. When you first arrived in Pale in mid or latter part of

6 May, who were the members of the Presidency?

7 A. I couldn't say that now with any precision because I know that

8 there was a law on implementing the Constitution setting forth that the

9 two of them were the Presidency, or members of the Presidency. Later on,

10 that was amended and it was stated that the Presidency would have three

11 members, and then Karadzic was elected to that three-member Presidency as

12 a member. And now as to whether they formulated that he should be the

13 third member of the Presidency or he was appointed to that function by the

14 Assembly, I really don't remember that. But initially, in the beginning,

15 it was the two of them who constituted the Presidency. I don't remember

16 exactly now because the law was later amended, but I think that it must

17 have been the two of them.

18 I know that we said that the two of them were the only ones who

19 were, in fact, elected in the general elections and that that ought to be

20 preserved, and this pertained to Koljevic and Plavcic.

21 Q. And subsequent to that three-person Presidency, was the

22 Presidency, the membership of the Presidency expanded further in 1992?

23 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know when that decision was taken.

24 I remember I discussed once with Branko Djeric, when he came in the

25 morning to the government meetings, he said that he was in the building

1 where Karadzic, Krajisnik, Plavsic, and Koljevic had offices, and since

2 all of them were presidents of certain bodies, they were frequently to as

3 presidents, president of this and president of this.

4 Now, as to when the decision was taken to transform this into a

5 three-member Presidency, I really couldn't tell you. The decision must

6 exist somewhere. I personally did not take part in preparing that

7 document and do not remember it specifically.

8 Q. And my question didn't pertain to the three-person Presidency

9 which you had already mentioned but to whether or not that three-person

10 Presidency was then expanded.

11 A. Well, that's what I meant, in fact.

12 JUDGE ORIE: May I just -- Mr. Trbojevic, you give long answers,

13 not very much focusing on the question. The question was clearly whether

14 the three-person Presidency expanded later in 1992.

15 You said, "I do not know when that decision was taken." First of

16 all, we'd like to hear from you whether you know about a decision. Could

17 you -- do you remember a decision which expanded the three-person

18 Presidency into a more than three-person Presidency?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm doing my best to explain the

20 actual situation. I said that I did not personally participate in the

21 adoption of that decision, in formulating its text, therefore, I don't

22 know when it was signed and adopted.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You are constantly answering a question which was not

24 specifically put to you, certainly not by me. That is when the decision

25 was taken. I first want to establish that such a decision was taken.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know that that decision was

2 adopted. I particularly didn't know when it was adopted. I heard from

3 Branko Djeric that it was going to the -- that he was going to the

4 Presidency sessions, and based on that decision, he was supposed to be a

5 member of that expanded Presidency.

6 This is how indirectly I heard about this term "expanded

7 Presidency."

8 JUDGE ORIE: So you were told by Mr. Djeric that he was a member

9 of an expanded Presidency; is that a correct understanding?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He said he was going to attend the

11 Presidency sessions, that he had to attend them, that he wasn't pleased

12 about that because these meetings always took place at night, late in the

13 day, and so on. I knew that he attended those meetings.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know about anyone else, apart from the three

15 members that was Karadzic, Plavsic, and Koljevic, apart from Mr. Djeric,

16 to be present during this meeting, any other person which, in addition to

17 the persons I mentioned, would attend?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who attended the

19 sessions.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know whether only the four persons mentioned

21 did attend these sessions?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

24 MR. TIEGER:

25 Q. When the Presidency was expanded, who were the members,

1 irrespective of who may have attended the meeting, of the expanded

2 Presidency?

3 A. I don't know how come I know that, but I think that the expanded

4 Presidency consisted of Karadzic, Krajisnik, Koljevic, Plavsic, and

5 Djeric.

6 Q. And do you recall the date on which that expansion -- the

7 approximate date on which that expansion of the Presidency occurred?

8 A. I really don't know.

9 Q. I draw your attention to page 29 of the second interview in which

10 you discuss some extracts from the Constitution. You explain in that

11 answer some of the things you had been mentioning here, mentioning that

12 the function, on the seventh line of your last answer on that page, that

13 "... the function of the president will be conducted by Presidency of,

14 like which will have three members." Then as your answer continues, you

15 say, "And the other law is like some kind of amendment to law from June

16 1992. They are now bringing like a new organ. They change ... they

17 change the Presidency and they say that during the, like, war conditions

18 that Presidency will be made wider with President of the national Assembly

19 and the president of the government. I think that is now the most

20 important decision."

21 Does that refresh your recollection, Mr. Trbojevic, about when the

22 Presidency was expanded to five members?

23 A. Mr. Margetts probably showed these regulations to me. We went

24 over them and this is how I came to read them.

25 Q. So if I understand your answer correctly, and please correct me if

1 I'm wrong, you knew from Mr. Djeric that the Presidency had been expanded

2 but when you were answering the question in court, you didn't recall the

3 date but based on your review of the laws, you -- during the time of the

4 interview, you understood that the expansion took place in June of 1992.

5 A. If that's what is stated in the text of that decision, the text of

6 that enactment, then that must be how it was.

7 Q. Did you or Mr. Djeric have a view about why he was included in the

8 expanded Presidency in addition to Mr. Krajisnik?

9 A. I truly never analysed that, never thought about that.

10 Q. Well, have you expressed the view before that Mr. Djeric was

11 included in the Presidency so that when Mr. Krajisnik was added to the

12 Presidency, people wouldn't comment on that in particular?

13 A. I don't know what you have in mind.

14 Q. Well, I'm actually referring to page 31 of your interview in May,

15 where you were asked why you thought the five-member Presidency was

16 formed. That's the last question and answer on that page.

17 You say: "I don't know how that happened. I have ... I was very

18 sure that even this three-member Presidency was functioning only based on

19 authority of Radovan Karadzic and authority of Momcilo Krajisnik, who was

20 not member of the Presidency at that time, although ... although formerly

21 he did not have those authorisations as the President of the Assembly.

22 That's why I think that there was a possibility to include him into this

23 organ, which would give him some legitimacy as a part of the supreme body

24 ... supreme organ of power, because the president of a republic, by its

25 function, is closer to executive powers than legislative powers. And I

1 believe that Djeric was included into that Presidency, probably in order

2 to avoid people thinking why Krajisnik was there too. Because it ... or

3 it would be logical that the president of government would enter that kind

4 of organ, because he is executive organ and he should have the greatest

5 number of information at his disposal. But knowing the relation between

6 them, he was not included into the Presidency in order to be given status

7 of, like, being part of that highest level of power. I believe it was

8 only for a reason that ... when Krajisnik entered there as a

9 representative of legislative power, so this way they also say that Djeric

10 as executive power could do it, would enter, too."

11 Does that refresh your recollection, Mr. Trbojevic, about such a

12 view and is that an accurate reflection of your understanding of why the

13 Presidency was expanded in the manner it was?

14 A. This was obviously one of the thoughts I had. I have no ability

15 of proving that this is actually how it was. I have no evidence to prove

16 that. This view is valid, that there is no room for a president of the

17 Assembly in that kind of an organ, whereas it is logical to have the Prime

18 Minister a member of that organ.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Trbojevic, may I ask you one question in that

20 respect. This analysis or these thoughts, you just explained to us that

21 they were rather theoretical about logic, what was logical, what was not

22 logical. Are there any circumstances which supported your view, were

23 there anything apart from your own thoughts that supported your analysis

24 of Mr. Djeric becoming part of the Presidency just in order to make people

25 not think the wrong things, as far as I understood you?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said just a moment ago that I have

2 no way of proving this. This is just one of my thoughts. Perhaps it was

3 developed as a result of my discussion with Djeric who was not happy about

4 becoming a member of the Presidency and having to attend the meetings.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That's exactly why I put this question to you because

6 "prove" does not mean -- if I have no proof of something - and I'm now

7 talking about normal life and not about being in a courtroom - if I have

8 no proof of something, then sometimes I, nevertheless, may have some

9 knowledge of circumstances which would support an idea, although not prove

10 an idea. So what I'm asking you is whether you had any circumstances in

11 mind or knowledge of any circumstances that would support your analysis of

12 why Mr. Djeric was included in the expansion of the Presidency, although

13 perhaps not proving it.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have nothing specific to offer

15 you. The fact is that they had offices in the same building, Krajisnik,

16 Karadzic, Koljevic, Plavsic, they had offices next to each other. They

17 could have discussed issues whenever they wanted. The mere creation of

18 that organ seemed unnecessary.

19 Therefore, what I said is just one of the comments concerning

20 that.

21 JUDGE ORIE: You say, "The mere creation of that organ seemed

22 unnecessary" Because, as far as I understand, you said they were so close

23 in terms of their offices, that they would not need an organ, well, to

24 have their conversations.

25 Let me put it to you in a different way: If you have this kind of

1 cooperation or conversations, et cetera, that it would be proper to

2 formalise them.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could agree with that.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

5 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I have a question for the

6 witness.

7 In your evidence on page 29, you are referring to the expansion of

8 the Presidency, you stated: "[In English] I think that this is the most

9 important decision." [Interpretation] What have you got in mind with

10 this? Why was this the most important decision? Do you think that it was

11 an important decision because it was a change in the structure which was

12 most unconstitutional or is it because of the consequences of that

13 decision; and if any, what were those consequences?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Initially, it seemed to me that it

15 was unnecessary. We were all in the same building, next to each other.

16 We would see each other several times a day. And now all of a sudden,

17 here we are creating an organ which is supposed to formalise our meetings,

18 and we all have the duties that we had; therefore, I thought that that was

19 superfluous, unnecessary. In addition to that, it was not in accordance

20 with the Constitution, so one wondered why would we violate constitutional

21 provisions even though it was wartime. The consequences themselves, what

22 decisions were adopted by that organ, I have to tell you that I did not

23 give it much thought. I did not analyse whether that would bring about

24 any changes in the policy pursued and in the work.

25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Let me just repeat my question.

1 Why have you stated, "I think that this is the most important decision"?

2 Why have you said that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know which section this

4 referred to, this sentence that I said. Really, I don't know.

5 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] We are talking about the point in

6 time in which you say, "They changed the Presidency [In English] and they

7 say that during the war, the Presidency will be made wider with president

8 of the national Assembly and the president of the national -- of the

9 government. I think that it is now the most important decision."

10 [Interpretation] I just would like to know why you said that.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I did not say that. I

12 think that must be a mistake in the text because during that interview I

13 said that that Presidency, in real terms, did not have any consequences of

14 its establishment.

15 As for what was actually happening, and I must say that I did not

16 see any of that, and therefore, I simply cannot agree with what it says

17 there, unless this was taken out of context, unless it referred to

18 something else.

19 As for the decision to establish the Presidency, I certainly could

20 not have said that that was the most important decision because, actually,

21 it just remained on paper, nothing more than that.

22 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, we have to have a break now.

24 In view of the last answer of the witness where he says, there

25 must have been a mistake in the transcript or in the translation, I would

1 like you to do two things: First of all, to provide the witness whenever

2 possible, not through direct contact, but with the relevant page of the

3 B/C/S, if there is a B/C/S version of the --

4 MR. TIEGER: There is.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 Mr. Trbojevic, you will be presented with a B/C/S copy of the page

7 you are just confronted with and we would then like to hear from you

8 whether you still take the position that it has been misinterpreted. If

9 so, we'll check on the basis of the tapes whether this is supported by the

10 recording, and we could do that by having the original tapes being

11 replayed.

12 We will adjourn until five minutes to 1.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I do understand that there was some

16 hesitation to give the witness just the one page. The only thing the

17 Chamber had in mind was to verify to what extent the complaint about

18 translation or recording was correct or not, and the witness has been

19 confronted with two or three lines, and certainly you would need the

20 context because he -- I think he put that in a certain context which, as

21 far as the Chamber is concerned, does not necessarily lead to giving him

22 the full copy of all of it but at the same time, we're not opposed to it

23 either, but perhaps -- I didn't hear from the Defence any observation in

24 this respect, but I'd rather limit it to the relevant portion, even if

25 you'd say that the line of questioning, if that would be two or three or

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13 English transcripts.

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1 four pages, that's fine as well.

2 MR. TIEGER: No, I understand, Your Honour, and I agree and I

3 thought that is what the Court was indicating but because there was at

4 least some room for ambiguity, I thought it was safer to do otherwise. I

5 have those portions here if the Court would wish to do it now.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Not necessarily now. I think the witness has

7 answered the question. Part of his answer was that in the translation his

8 words were not reflected as he has said them. He could read that page

9 over during this afternoon and this evening and then report to us tomorrow

10 and see whether there's any need to further clarify the matter by hearing

11 the audiotapes.

12 Please proceed.

13 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, in connection with your responses about the

15 expanded Presidency, I believe you mentioned something about seeing it in

16 some respects as superfluous or unnecessary and you mentioned the regular

17 meetings that were taking place even before the expanded Presidency was

18 formed.

19 Let me direct your attention, if I may, to a portion of your

20 second interview, found at page 32 at the bottom. We were discussing the

21 same issue. And the question refers you to the appointment of Krajisnik

22 and Djeric to the expanded Presidency. And you said -- the question was:

23 "You said that the appointment of Krajisnik to the expanded Presidency

24 meant that he formerly held a position with an executive function; is that

25 correct?"

1 I want to pause for a moment and hopefully give the interpreters

2 time to locate it in the B/C/S transcript.

3 Then you said: "Yes it is. I yesterday said that his status and

4 before entering this wider Presidency, it was the same. And functioning

5 of Krajisnik and Karadzic even before entering Presidency was of the same

6 level, of the same power and of the same base."

7 The rest of your answer doesn't directly address that issue,

8 although it touches upon it, so I'll stop there.

9 Was -- did that answer given in the May interview, Mr. Trbojevic,

10 capture the sense in which you were indicating your feeling that the

11 formal expansion of the Presidency was superfluous or unnecessary?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about the

14 institution of Crisis Staffs. First of all, were you familiar with the

15 existence of Crisis Staffs in the municipalities?

16 A. Well, in different forms, yes.

17 Q. And to what extent did you understand that the Crisis Staffs held

18 power in the municipalities?

19 A. I have to say that the government, as an institution, that it did

20 not have any direct insight into the work of these Crisis Staffs.

21 Actually, hardly any. I had the opportunity of talking to people in

22 Sokolac, and on one occasion, I toured the municipalities in Herzegovina.

23 I visited Nevesinje, Gacko, Bileca, and Trebinje, and let me say that this

24 is some personal experience that I had in this regard: We saw a situation

25 there, that the war was already over in a particular town, or perhaps some

1 war operations were over, a number of people left as refugees, another

2 group of people came to town as refugees again, so these Crisis Staffs

3 actually had to deal with the issue of where to put up the people who

4 came, how to feed them, how to have at least part of the economy

5 functioning, how to ensure that the school operates; all the regular needs

6 of a town or a community that were suspended due to the war.

7 The government would be asked to send fuel by way of assistance

8 for vehicles, and food for hospitals, and now the question is how the

9 administrative authorities functioned. Of course, there is the problem of

10 response to call-up by conscripts and also the problem of the return of

11 conscripts to town. Can both happen?

12 Then there is the major problem of safety and security because

13 soldiers return from the front with weapons and the question was how to

14 ensure the safety, the vital safety of citizens, because soldiers who are

15 armed and outside their units are dangerous anywhere. So that was ...

16 Q. Let me turn our attention for a moment away from the -- whatever

17 the specific problems that may have been faced or addressed by Crisis

18 Staffs to a more basic question of whether or not the Crisis Staffs were

19 the power in the municipalities.

20 A. As far as the Crisis Staffs are concerned, there was some kind of

21 instruction that was sent out in terms of the establishment of Crisis

22 Staffs. Crisis Staffs were envisaged as organs that were supposed to make

23 it possible to have the legal authorities function. So the Crisis Staff

24 was supposed to be led by the president of the municipality, and the

25 president of the executive board of the municipality was supposed to be on

1 the Crisis Staff. So those were supposed to be the most responsible

2 people who would be dealing with the most pressing problems, and the

3 assemblymen of the municipality were supposed to try to get the Assembly

4 together as soon as possible so that the system would start operating, if

5 I can put it that way.

6 So if you look at the concrete situation, as for the resolving of

7 concrete problems, well, yes, the Crisis Staff did have the authority to

8 decide on matters that actually fell under the jurisdiction of the

9 Assembly. Also, to see how different positions would be allocated within

10 the municipality, but actually, they were not supposed to be any kind of

11 form of government, they were supposed to be there until the regular

12 authorities would start functioning.

13 Q. And during the time the Crisis Staffs existed, was power in the

14 municipalities vested in them?

15 A. I'm saying that they were the mainstays of practical authority

16 until the municipal Assemblies could start meeting again. No one ever

17 thought that it should be envisaged nor was it envisaged that Crisis

18 Staffs should have any kind of authority in terms of using the military or

19 the police. In many Crisis Staffs, there were members of military

20 commands and police structures only for the reasons that I mentioned a

21 while ago; namely, to coordinate the sending of conscripts to the front

22 line, then that the unit should make it possible to have conscripts sent

23 back home, and also that these conscripts should not move around, armed

24 and posing a danger to the population. Then the police would have to

25 adapt their activities to the military units because part of police also

1 had some of their activities under the military units involved.

2 Q. And from whom -- from which bodies or which individuals did the

3 Crisis Staffs take direction? To whom were they answerable?

4 A. I've said that the government sent this instruction on the

5 establishment of Crisis Staffs, if I remember correctly, sometime in the

6 month of April, before I came to Pale. It is a fact, though, that we as

7 members of the government, had poor communication links with the

8 municipalities, partly due to the war operations, partly due to the lack

9 of communications equipment.

10 Afterwards, the regulations changed. A decision was passed on the

11 establishment of War Presidencies, then War Commissioner's offices. I

12 don't know which one came first, but if I'm not mistaken, these decisions

13 were taken by the Presidency.

14 The first one was poorly formulated. The legislative and

15 executive were brought together within the Crisis Staffs - that was

16 rectified later - but the concept was supposed to be as follows. I mean,

17 the concept that the government insisted on was the one I explained to you

18 just now.

19 Q. Were the Crisis Staffs party organs?

20 A. Well, they weren't party organs. I think that the party was

21 supposed to send people to the Crisis Staffs. Now, the president of the

22 municipality would be a person from the party, then the president of the

23 Executive Board would be a person from the party as well. So there was no

24 doubt that the Serb Democratic Party had a dominant influence.

25 Q. In your second interview, at page 69 of the English translation,

1 you say at the very bottom of that page: "So practically the Crisis Staff

2 was a branch of the party."

3 And I'll read the question that preceded that and the full answer.

4 The question was: "So, they had power in the municipalities and you said

5 they were answerable to Karadzic and Krajisnik. So, what was your

6 observation in respect of ability of Karadzic and Krajisnik to effect

7 action in municipalities?"

8 You said: "So, they had like absolute connections both, with

9 deputies and with the party in the field. Like, in the Crisis Staff, you

10 had people who were part of the party, part of the ... were also deputies

11 and were also members of the board of the party. So practically, the

12 Crisis Staff was a branch of the party."

13 Was that a correct answer, sir?

14 A. That's what I said just now too.

15 Q. You mentioned the police in connection with your answer concerning

16 Crisis Staffs and I'd like to ask you some questions about the Ministry of

17 the Interior, if I may.

18 If I can turn your attention to a portion of tab 106, the 22nd

19 session of the Assembly.

20 MR. TIEGER: That's the beginning of binder 4, Your Honours.

21 Q. Let me first turn your attention to an excerpt from page 48 of

22 that Assembly session in the English translation, which I believe can be

23 found at approximately page 49 in the B/C/S translation -- page 47 of the

24 B/C/S translation, at the top of the page.

25 What you said then was: "However, when it comes to the police, I

1 have already said this at one meeting, I don't know if it was the

2 Assembly, but I think that the law on internal affairs has set the

3 relation between the minister for internal affairs and the Prime Minister

4 in the wrong way, the same way that the law on army excluded the minister

5 for defence from the relations with the state ..."

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, we have not found it yet. You said page

7 47 of the B/C/S translation and page, was it 48 in the English?

8 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, that would be the fourth paragraph;

9 the second paragraph from the bottom. It's the paragraph that begins, "We

10 have tried to make schedules ..." and then continues. I began reading at

11 the second sentence of that paragraph.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 Could you please restart.

14 MR. TIEGER:

15 Q. "However, when to comes to the police, I have already said this at

16 one meeting, I don't know if it was the Assembly, but I think that the

17 law on internal affairs has set the relation between the minister for

18 internal affairs and the Prime Minister in the wrong way, the same way

19 that the law on army excluded the minister for defence from the relations

20 with the state Presidency." And I pause, Your Honour, we might want to

21 check the translation on that. "The same is in the law on internal

22 affairs, the minister of internal affairs is directed at the state

23 Presidency, not at the Prime Minister."

24 Mr. Trbojevic, did that express your concern about who the

25 minister of interior was reporting to and who the minister of interior was

1 not reporting to?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. Before I continue, let me ask you -- direct your attention to

4 remarks by Mr. Djeric at the same Assembly session, found at page 17 of

5 the English translation in approximately the middle. And at page 12, I

6 believe, of the B/C/S translation, toward the top.

7 Mr. Djeric speaking and saying: "Further, if the Prime Minister

8 has free hands to make quick changes and if someone else takes the right

9 to insist on some ministers, then, gentlemen, he needs to take

10 responsibility for their work. So far, not a single member of the state

11 leadership has done that, but they always say it is the government's

12 responsibility, the responsibility of the Prime Minister, and so on. For

13 example, when it comes to the justice system, when it comes to the

14 minister of justice, the minister of internal affairs, they are not even

15 in the government, they never come to the government sessions, only to the

16 president of the Republic or the president of the Assembly. Neither of

17 them ever stood up in front of the people or on television and said, 'We

18 are responsible for their work,' which would release the Prime Minister

19 from the responsibility. That would be a fair thing to do."

20 Now, can you tell us, Mr. Trbojevic, what you and Mr. Djeric were

21 referring to specifically in those passages, what concern you were

22 expressing.

23 A. Well, I have to admit that I haven't found this section where

24 Mr. Djeric said what you read out just now. But I know that I said that

25 some things were happening that did not have a proper logic and that

1 should not be happening that way.

2 At one point I mentioned that the minister of defence said to us

3 that he reported to the General Staff in Belgrade, and in the part that

4 you are reading now, it says that the function of the minister of the

5 interior is linked to the Presidency of the Republic. And in this way, it

6 was basically taken out of the government.

7 So we tried to make a proper schedule this way. Part of the

8 police is involved in military functions, but then another part of the

9 police has to keep the law and order, but there was no one to discuss this

10 with or agree upon with because they did not talk to the Prime Minister,

11 they did not inform the Prime Minister about their activities, so the

12 government remained totally uninformed about this sector of its activity

13 which was supposed to fall under their ambit.

14 Q. First of all, I want to give you an opportunity to find the

15 excerpt of Mr. Djeric's speech that I read earlier, and in the English

16 translation it appears shortly before Mr. Mandic speaks. And Mr. Mandic

17 begins to speak at the top of page 13 and I directed your attention to

18 approximately the middle of page 12 in the B/C/S version.

19 My question is, in addition to complaining that the minister of

20 interior and minister of justice were not reporting to the government or

21 him as the Prime Minister, was Mr. Djeric also complaining that the

22 minister of justice and the minister of interior reported to Mr. Karadzic

23 and Mr. Krajisnik?

24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I wonder if -- as the Trial Chamber

25 sometimes might asks, I wonder if Mr. Tieger might just give me a phrase

1 so I can find it by computer search.

2 MR. TIEGER: "For example, when it comes to the justice system,

3 when it comes to the ministry of justice, the minister of internal

4 affairs ..."

5 MR. STEWART: Just a phrase would do. "When it comes to," is a

6 phrase, right? Thank you. Got it, thank you.

7 MR. TIEGER:

8 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, have you been able to find the portion of

9 Mr. Djeric's remarks where he addresses concerns about the minister of

10 justice and minister of interior and to whom they are reporting?

11 A. It starts on page 11 here. On the same page, just below the

12 mid-page, he speaks about the problems of the Ministry of the Interior,

13 Ministry of Justice, and says this is when the problems started, this is

14 when the government encountered problems.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I think the part where we find that would be on page

16 12, not on page 11, approximately the last 10 to 12 lines of the first

17 linea on page 12.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think you are interested in this

19 portion where the Prime Minister says that the government has to be -- has

20 to have carte blanche for any changes. If somebody else wants to have

21 ministers at their disposal, then they have to be accountable or held

22 accountable for their work.

23 This was the discussion after a failed attempt of Mr. Djeric to

24 carry out a partial reconstruction of the government and to replace

25 Ministers Stanisic and Mandic.

1 Q. You say, "If somebody else or anybody else wants to have ministers

2 at their disposal, then they have to be accountable." Who was he

3 referring to in using the term, somebody else who wanted to have the

4 ministers at their disposal?

5 A. Based on my conversations with Djeric, I know that in his attempt

6 to reconstruct the government and to replace Ministers Stanisic and

7 Mandic, based on what he told me, he had had discussions with Karadzic and

8 Krajisnik regarding that and did not receive their approval, their

9 consent. This was before the session and probably pertains to that.

10 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, could you clarify something

11 for me, please? You said, or you hinted that neither the interior

12 minister nor the minister of justice were reporting to the Prime Minister

13 and that the people they reported to be tended, in fact, to be

14 Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik. If they had reported to the Prime

15 Minister, what could the Prime Minister have done more than what he was

16 actually doing? What difference would that have made?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Prime Minister wanted the

18 cabinet members and the government to function in such a way that the

19 government would be informed about what the ministers were doing. He

20 wanted the government to be the one to inform the Assembly and the

21 president of the Republic about their activities and their work. It was

22 not logical for the minister of police and minister of defence to

23 cooperate with the Presidency without informing the government about that

24 and about the content of that cooperation.

25 As for the minister of justice, I don't know what kind of

1 cooperation he could have provided except in the matter regarding

2 appointment of prosecutors and judges.

3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] But I'm still asking you the same

4 question: What changes would have been made, or what would have been

5 different in that case?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is hard to say what would have

7 happened if this situation in the government was different. I suppose

8 that the insisting on -- ensuring law and order and so on ought to have

9 been enforced to a greater degree. I suppose that the situation regarding

10 the government's duties with respect to the army would have been better

11 had we known, had we been properly informed on all aspects. This is

12 especially true of the justice organs had they known what everybody else

13 was doing. Now as to what they would have done specifically, it's hard

14 for me to say that now.

15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

16 MR. TIEGER:

17 Q. Were you present at any meeting when Mr. Djeric attempted to --

18 spoke to Mr. Krajisnik and Dr. Karadzic about his effort to eliminate or

19 remove Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Mandic from the government?

20 A. Perhaps only once. Perhaps I was present only once. I mostly

21 received information from Mr. Djeric, but I think that on one occasion we

22 talked about that. I was present and I'm sure that Mrs. Plavsic and

23 Mr. Koljevic were present as well.

24 Q. On the occasion that you were present, did Dr. Karadzic and

25 Mr. Krajisnik both reject Mr. Djeric's proposal to remove Mr. Stanisic and

1 Mr. Mandic from government?

2 A. I can't say that this is how it ended, that it ended with them

3 saying, "This is out of the question and we will not discuss it any more."

4 However, they were against it. Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic sided with

5 Mr. Djeric.

6 Later on, the Assembly was held in Banja Luka where this was

7 supposed to be formally pushed through and at that time, Djeric told us

8 that he had talked to them and was told that this was out of the question.

9 Then he attempted to reconstruct the government partially, I think without

10 Stanisic, but with Mandic present as minister without portfolio. We voted

11 on that and voted -- the vote was in favour of that, and this issue

12 remained until Djeric resigned.

13 MR. TIEGER: I could go on, Your Honour, but that's my last

14 question at this moment on that subject and I would be moving on to

15 another topic.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll finish it because then it's a quarter to

17 2.00.

18 That was your last question or there was one more question?

19 MR. TIEGER: No, that was my last question.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I misunderstood you.

21 Mr. Stewart, you are on your feet just to hear me say that we are

22 adjourned until tomorrow morning?

23 MR. STEWART: I'm on my feet out of respect for the Trial Chamber

24 because I believe that Your Honours are about to be on your feet to leave

25 the court. No more and no less than that, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE ORIE: I will first announce that we will adjourn until

2 tomorrow morning, 9.00, but in courtroom II, not in this same courtroom.

3 Mr. Trbojevic, I would like to instruct you that you should speak

4 with no one about the testimony you have been giving until now and you are

5 still about to give in the coming days. We'd like to see you back

6 tomorrow morning at 9.00.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.

8 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of April,

9 2005, at 9.00 a.m.

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