1 Wednesday, 29 June 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

9 Mr. Tieger, are you ready to condition the examination-in-chief of

10 Witness Tupajic?

11 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then when awaiting the arrival of the witness in the

13 courtroom - Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

14 courtroom - I would like to address two matters briefly. One is that in

15 view of Witness 606 there was the issue of whether the Defence objected

16 against one statement or two statements; that has not yet been clarified

17 where the Chamber has asked further clarification from the parties, so we

18 would like to receive that. And then there is another matter - and that

19 is I'm addressing you - Mr. Krajisnik, you did invite write two letters

20 when you were invited to draft a kind of an agenda for a meeting. The

21 Chamber would like to know whether you would like to have these letters

22 filed so that they are part of this case.

23 Yes, if you could tell us now, fine; if you will say, I'll tell

24 you one of these days, it's fine as well. It's not an urgent matter, but

25 we have to know whether or not these letters should be filed officially

1 because they were addressed to the Judges personally.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm going to consult with my

3 lawyers, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's fine. Then we'll hear from the Defence.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tupajic, good afternoon.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. Good

8 afternoon to everybody.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the

10 solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony

11 yesterday, and I would also very much ask you to answer the questions as

12 they are put to you. So please carefully listen and address the matters

13 that are raised in the question.

14 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

15 MR. TIEGER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

16 WITNESS: MILAN TUPAJIC [Resumed]

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Examined by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

19 Q. Mr. Tupajic, just before we adjourned yesterday I had asked

20 whether Muslim villages were shelled and burned down by the 2nd Romanija

21 Brigade during the summer of 1992 and asked you to identify those

22 villages, and you indicated that those activities started in Donje Babine

23 village, and you provided some description and named some villages just

24 before we adjourned. After the operations -- the operation in Babine

25 village, did the 2nd Romanija Brigade then move on to conduct operations

1 against other Muslim villages in the Sokolac municipality?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And in addition to the villages you mentioned yesterday, which

4 included Sasevci, Pitlice, Pridvorica, Grabenice, Islica -- Islica, Brdov,

5 Kaljina and Sahbegovic, did those operations also include Ivazovici and

6 Mangurici.

7 A. If you will allow me, I would like to correct the names of the

8 villages. The first one is Sasevci, Pridvorica, Iseric Brdo, Sahbegovici,

9 Kaljina, with a few hamlets. This also applies to the village of

10 Mangurici and Ivazovici, the ones that you have just mentioned.

11 Q. Were those villages destroyed?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And how was that done? Were they first shelled by artillery?

14 Were -- did the infantry first enter? How was that destruction

15 accomplished?

16 A. As far as I know, there was first artillery fire and after that

17 and probably after the Muslim population or possibly soldiers had

18 withdrawn, the infantry entered the villages and later on the villages

19 were burned. We forgot to mention a big village between Knezina and

20 Kaljina, and that is the village of Meljine.

21 Q. Yesterday in response to questions by Judge Hanoteau, you

22 testified about the unlawful arrests and detentions of Muslim civilians

23 without lawful grounds. Can you identify some of the places in which

24 those Muslim civilians were held?

25 A. As far as I know, the first place where they were detained was the

1 cellar of the primary school in Sokolac. The next one was the earlier

2 abandoned school building in Cavarine village; and later on some of the

3 rooms in the factory in Palez, which is a hamlet near Knezina; and

4 finally, in a restaurant in Knezina and in the cellar of the building

5 where the post office was and where the seat of the local commune was.

6 Q. And what can you tell us about conditions in those detention

7 facilities?

8 A. I believe that the conditions were rather bad as far as I know.

9 When we're talking about the cellar of the primary school, I know that in

10 1991 after the facilities of the football club had burned down, we used

11 the cellar for -- as the changing rooms for the footballers. And I know

12 that in 1991 the conditions there were bad and I believe that they were

13 even worse in 1992. And I believe that the situation was the same in

14 other facilities. There were no conditions to provide for even the

15 minimum conditions for the stay of these people.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, whenever the witness says "I believe," as

17 it reflects I wonder why he believes that.

18 MR. TIEGER:

19 Q. Mr. Tupajic, as the Court noted, you stated that you believed that

20 the conditions were rather bad, as far as you know. Then you described

21 what you knew about the conditions in the cellar of the primary school

22 where Muslims were held and stated that you believe that -- that you were

23 familiar with the conditions in 1991, believed that they were even worse

24 in 1992, and believed that the situation was the same in other facilities.

25 Can you assist the Court in understanding the basis for your belief, both

1 that the conditions in the cellar of the primary school were worse in 1992

2 than when you were familiar with them in 1991 and also why you believed

3 that the situation was the same in other facilities.

4 A. As I've told you, we used those premises in 1991 for a very short

5 stay of the footballers. They used those premises as their changing

6 rooms. We managed to install one or two showers for the footballers to

7 take a shower after the training. As far as I remember, there was very

8 little light. I suppose, although I didn't have an occasion to see that,

9 that later on the conditions deteriorated. Nobody ever used those

10 premises. The school in Cavarine had been abandoned for years; it did not

11 have any facilities or installations, any sewage or water pipes on the

12 account of the period when it was constructed. As for the restaurant in

13 Knezina, there was only one WC; this is a restaurant that had been open

14 for years. And as for the cellar in the building where the post office

15 and the local commune were, I didn't enter the cellars, but I know that

16 they hadn't been used for years; they had been abandoned. And this is the

17 basis for my belief that the conditions were rather bad. I did not see

18 any of them, myself, but I have grounds to believe that the conditions

19 were bad.

20 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask one additional question. You never

21 heard about any renovation or -- of these facilities?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Under the circumstances existing at that time, would

24 you -- would you have known if any such money and time-consuming

25 renovations would have taken place?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could only learn that somebody

2 from the command asked for the supply of the building material for the

3 renovation of these facilities. As far as I can remember, nobody

4 approached us in the municipality, and that is why I'm saying that I don't

5 have any information that any renovation of these facilities had been

6 carried out.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

9 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. A moment ago I asked you about the operations by the 2nd Romanija

11 Brigade against Muslim villages. Did the police also participate in those

12 operations?

13 A. I don't have any information that the police participated in such

14 operations. No such information ever reached me.

15 Q. Do you know whether special units of the police --

16 MR. TIEGER: Perhaps it's best if I follow up with this question,

17 Your Honour, before you --

18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

19 MR. TIEGER:

20 Q. Mr. Tupajic, do you know whether special units of the police were

21 formed during the summer of 1992?

22 A. Are you referring to the territory of the municipality,

23 Mr. Prosecutor?

24 Q. Yes, yes, I am --

25 A. I don't understand the question fully.

1 Q. Well, in particular with an interest in the forces that

2 participated in operations against municipality villages, I wanted to know

3 if you were aware of or had any information on the establishment of

4 special units of the police that might have cooperated with or worked with

5 or engaged in operations with the 2nd Romanija Brigade?

6 A. According to my information, neither the regular police from the

7 public security station nor the special police participated in that.

8 Because the 2nd Romanija Brigade was very strong, had a lot of troops, and

9 I believed that they did not need any assistance in those operations.

10 In Sokolac there was never any special police unit. Special police was

11 established in other areas. However, there were a number of military

12 conscripts that were assigned to some units of the special police; I don't

13 know how many. I know that for a while the headquarters of one of those

14 units was on Mount Jahorina as far as I can remember.

15 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I didn't know if you wanted to follow up

16 at this point.

17 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise for

18 having interrupted you at the moment when you were asking your questions.

19 I would like to follow up on what the witness has said. He has

20 told us -- [In English] "There was first artillery fire and after that,

21 probably after the Muslim population or possibly soldiers had withdrawn,

22 the infantry entered the villages."

23 [Interpretation] It seems that first there was artillery fire,

24 according to what the witness has told us, and then the population

25 withdrew and -- the possible soldiers, and then the infantry would enter

1 the villages in order to set fire to the houses.

2 Is that what you've told us? Is that how you've described the

3 events to us?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that was the case. As far as I

5 remember, we discussed that yesterday already. I would like to say that

6 the women, children, and the elderly, according to the information that we

7 had at the time, even before that, as soon as there were first actions in

8 Babine village, they started withdrawing towards Olovo. At the moment

9 there was shelling, I don't think that there were any civilians, and I'm

10 primarily referring to the women, children, and the elderly in the

11 village. According to my information, there were no casualties among the

12 civilian population, so you have understood my answer properly.

13 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

14 MR. TIEGER:

15 Q. Mr. Tupajic, I wonder if you might clarify something for me, and

16 in connection with that I wanted to turn to the interview of November 13th

17 at page 25. This was an interview involving you and representatives of

18 the Office of the Prosecutor in -- on November 13th of 2003. And at

19 page 25 you were asked: "What role did the Serbian police in Sokolac play

20 in supporting the military operations against the Muslim villages in July,

21 August, and September of 1992?"

22 And your answer, at least as it was recorded here, was: "As far

23 as I know, the police was organised along the line of the MUP, the

24 Ministry of the Interior, and they formed special units that they deployed

25 to help the army. I remember a visit that I made when they were on the

1 Nisic plateau. They were deployed on the Nisic plateau. The deployment

2 of these units was probably coordinated between the people from the Main

3 Staff, but in 1992 most of the policemen were used in the battlefields."

4 I was wondering if you could help us in reconciling that with your

5 previous answer about the -- to the question about use of special units of

6 the police.

7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, my visit to the Nisic plateau and the visit to the

8 policemen who were on the strength of that unit did not happen in 1992.

9 That was later on. I don't know whether it was in 1993 or 1994. There is

10 nothing disputable about that.

11 Q. In the question, as it was posed in the interview, focussed on the

12 military operations in the summer of 1992. And in your answer, again

13 according to the transcript, you concluded by saying: "In 1992, most of

14 the policemen were used in the battlefields."

15 Do I understand you correctly that you say that you either didn't

16 mean 1992 or that the transcript incorrectly reflected your answer that it

17 was on -- during some year other than 1992?

18 A. Mr. Prosecutor, this direction, the direction of Olovo where the

19 2nd Romanija Brigade was active, was only one of the directions and one of

20 the locations where the members of the then 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade

21 were deployed. The police, and quite a few of them from the police

22 station in fact, as far as I can remember, were busy in Sarajevo. I

23 believe that in the summer and autumn in 1992 they were near the Jewish

24 cemetery within the framework of the unit which was set up by the police.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tupajic, the question put to you during the

1 interview as we read it was not only about July, August, and September of

2 1992, but also mentioned military operations against the Muslim villages

3 and the involvement of the police in that. If you say it was at a later

4 stage, do you mean to say that operations against Muslim villages were --

5 took place later than in July, August, and September 1992?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The activities that started in

7 the village of Babine -- well, it was in the beginning of August/end of

8 July. And that was the start of the operations that we had referred to

9 before.

10 JUDGE ORIE: That continued until when?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think already by the end of

12 September the demarcation line was set up along the villages of Krusevo,

13 Dugandzici. I don't really know where exactly this demarcation line ran

14 in the direction of the municipality of Radnik. And those lines basically

15 remained unchanged or they were only slightly shifted until the end of

16 1995.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Part of your answer in that interview was

18 that "These special units were deployed to help the army."

19 To help the army with what?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely, I can't deny

21 coordinating activities of the units of the armed forces of the

22 Republika Srpska and the police units.

23 As to the use of those units, well, it was probably a joint

24 decision between the Main Staff and the Ministry of the Interior, that is

25 to say the government. As to the insight of those planned operations and

1 joined operations -- well, it's something that I myself obviously never

2 had, but I know where police officers from Sokolac spent time at certain

3 periods of time. One of those periods of time referred to their stay at

4 Nisic plateau in 1992 and then the Jewish cemetery in the area of Sarajevo

5 in 1992.

6 JUDGE ORIE: The question was focussing on whether such

7 coordination took also place in relation to the operations against Muslim

8 villages.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've said before, I think that when

10 it comes to these particular activities, when those villages were being

11 taken, as far as I know there was no need for that, since there was almost

12 no resistance to speak of as far as I know and there were no major clashes

13 in the course of that operation. I suppose that the need arose if, that

14 is, the need had risen, we would have asked -- or they would have asked

15 for the help of the Ministry of the Interior, but there was no need for

16 that because the 2nd Romanija had sufficient strength.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

18 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Mr. Tupajic, I'd like to ask you another question focussed on the

20 conditions that existed for Muslims in Sokolac municipality in the summer

21 of 1992. In that connection, let me ask you whether members of your

22 family hid Muslims from VRS troops during that period?

23 A. Yes, I referred to that. My parents who lived at Knezina and

24 their next-door neighbours who were Muslims had considerable difficulties

25 with the members of the armed forces of the Republika Srpska and

1 especially at that time when all Muslim inhabitants, except for two infirm

2 old women left Knezina. And during the night they sought refuge at our

3 house and at the house of my uncle, just to spend the night because they

4 were harassed during the day and they feared for their safety during the

5 night, they feared the worst. Presumably they were following the events

6 there, and on a number of occasions there was a lot of verbal abuse. I

7 mean, my parents suffered that verbal abuse at the hands of the members of

8 the armed forces of the Republika Srpska.

9 Q. Were these two elderly Muslim women the last remaining people from

10 their village?

11 A. They were.

12 Q. And what eventually happened to them?

13 A. Later on, after two months I believe, my brother managed to have

14 them taken to the village of Burate during the night, which is a border

15 village between the municipalities of Sokolac and Rogatica, and it was

16 within the area of Rogatica where Muslims were still present. And

17 afterwards they went to Sarajevo with the other Muslims, and they were

18 safe there because they had their relatives in Sarajevo.

19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would like the next exhibit to be

20 placed before the witness. As the Court is aware, there is a small packet

21 of exhibits. I believe everyone has that other than the witness at the

22 moment.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, logistics are improving. A telegram?

24 MR. TIEGER: Yes, I'm directing everyone's attention to the

25 telegram contained behind tab 1.

1 Q. Mr. Tupajic, just to explain, as I think you can already see,

2 behind each tab is an English and B/C/S version of the exhibit in

3 question. I've directed your attention to tab 1 and of course to the --

4 in your case to the B/C/S version of that. Can you tell us what that

5 document is, please? And, I'm sorry, before you do so --

6 MR. TIEGER: Perhaps I could have that marked at this time, Your

7 Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be, Your Honours, P842, and the English

10 translation 842.1.

11 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.

12 Q. Mr. Tupajic, can you tell us about this telegram?

13 A. This is a telegram, as far as I know, which came from the

14 then-president of the Republika Srpska, Mr. Karadzic, in the month of

15 July. I can't remember which day exactly, but perhaps you can tell on the

16 basis of my reply. And presumably -- well, at the time I thought it had

17 been sent to some other or maybe all the other municipalities in the

18 Republic of Serbia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. And later on, a couple of

19 days later, I saw that -- the telegram of the same content was sent to

20 seven or eight municipalities in Eastern Bosnia. In this document the

21 entire responsibility for any offence taking place on the territory of

22 those municipalities is being shifted on to us as the presidents of

23 municipalities.

24 I was rather surprised by this telegram, since I knew that

25 Mr. Karadzic knew full well about the way in which the system was

1 functioning, about the way in which it was organised. I mean the system

2 of government in the then-Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, who had

3 what competencies, and who was in command over what forces, and who, if

4 they wished to do so, could realistically implement the measures that he's

5 asking us to implement in this telegram.

6 Q. I'm going to ask you to look at two additional documents. First,

7 very quickly, the document behind tab 2 which is previously marked and

8 admitted Exhibit P690. Mr. Tupajic, this appears to reflect the content

9 of the telegram and the date, also indicating that it has been sent to a

10 number of municipalities in the following manner, including to Sokolac on

11 the teleprinter. It indicates the date and time that the last message was

12 sent as July 14th, at 1530 hours. It's signed by Colonel Kotlica, and it

13 adds a PS, "I suggest that you inform the media."

14 Did Sokolac receive the -- its information via teleprinter, as

15 indicated in this document?

16 A. Precisely that. I did say early Sokolac, compared to all these

17 other municipalities and the entire region, had the best equip -- with all

18 the equipment, and that was the reason the telegram was actually sent to

19 Sokolac, precisely because of that infrastructure. And then through the

20 military services, this same telegram was forwarded to all the other

21 municipalities.

22 Q. Now, you referred to a reply in your earlier answer. Could I ask

23 you now to turn to tab 3.

24 MR. TIEGER: And can I have that marked as the next exhibit in

25 order, please.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

2 THE REGISTRAR: That, Your Honours, will be P843, with the

3 translation 843.1. Thank you.

4 MR. TIEGER:

5 Q. Mr. Tupajic, is 843 your reply to the telegram that was sent to

6 you by Dr. Karadzic on July 14th, 1992, and was that dated -- was that

7 sent on July 15th, 1992?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, we might have forgotten to give a number

10 to the previous tab 2 --

11 MR. TIEGER: That's P690, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, that's already in evidence. Yes, you're right,

13 you're perfectly right. I apologise.

14 MR. TIEGER:

15 Q. Why did you respond to Mr. -- Dr. Karadzic's telegram and what

16 were you trying to tell him?

17 A. Well, basically the gist of my reply to Mr. Karadzic is simply

18 reminding him of the fact that I myself as the president of the

19 municipality and the Crisis Staff, which was basically winding things up

20 there in as far as the war was concerned, when it came to implementing his

21 orders that we had no competence and no possibility to do so. I simply

22 reminded him of the fact that officially the TO staff was no longer in

23 existence since the 1st of May when the 2nd Romanija Brigade was set up

24 and that the police stations and the chief of police which -- or rather,

25 who in the meantime had resigned was accountable according to the line of

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1 command to the Ministry of the Interior. And that, quite simply, when it

2 came to both implementing these measures at the municipal level - and I

3 did say that we had not started with that, I mean expressing loyalty by

4 surrendering arms - I said that we had no influence, no competence, and we

5 could not do anything whatsoever to protect the population or guarantee

6 their safety. I believe that -- even at the time and even now when I look

7 back, I think it was a slightly unique and considering the circumstances

8 at the time a rather brave answer.

9 Q. Mr. Tupajic, in the response to Dr. Karadzic, you state that

10 the: "Activities on the area of the municipality are conducted by the

11 station of public security and by the 2nd Romanija Brigade."

12 That's correct, right? That's in the first paragraph of your

13 response. And I'm referring specifically to --

14 A. It says here -- well, the last sentence reads that all activities

15 on the territory of the municipality, considering safety, were to be

16 implemented by the command of the 2nd Romanija Brigade and the police

17 force and that it was being done without my knowledge and the knowledge of

18 my closest collaborators.

19 Q. Now, in your earlier answer about the telegram, you testified that

20 the entire responsibility was being shifted in asserting that you would be

21 responsible for security. Who -- or which body within Republika Srpska

22 was ultimately in charge of the military, of the 2nd Romanija Brigade, all

23 the way up through its chain of command, and who was at the top of the

24 chain of command of the military in Republika Srpska in the summer of

25 1992?

1 A. The supreme commander of the armed forces that were made up of

2 both the Ministry of the Interior and the military was the president of

3 the republic; the 2nd Romanija Brigade, as a military formation; and all

4 the other military formations, according to the hierarchy, were

5 accountable to the corps commands. And the corps commands and their part

6 were accountable to the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska, and they again

7 were accountable to the president of the republic for whatever they did.

8 And if we think about the line of command in -- within the Ministry of the

9 Interior, and I mentioned that yesterday, the police stations were

10 carrying out their tasks according to the instructions from the central

11 offices of the police and they got their tasks assigned by the Minister of

12 the Interior, the Ministry of the Interior, and the minister.

13 I don't know whether the supreme defence council existed; it did

14 by the end of the war, and it was made up by the most high-ranking people,

15 especially in the area of security and military. And in my opinion, as is

16 the case in any other country, they should have looked into all these

17 matters and adopt an attitude or reach a decision and then issue orders.

18 Q. Insofar as you were area in 1992, was the Minister of the Interior

19 superior to or subordinate to the Presidency of Republika Srpska?

20 A. Yes. He was subordinated to the president of the Republic

21 of Srpska. Not just to him.

22 Q. A moment ago you stated that you thought under the circumstances

23 your response was a brave one. Did that have to do with that aspect of

24 your response in telling Dr. Karadzic that you weren't responsible for the

25 safety, he was as president or president of the Presidency?

1 A. Yes. The gist of my answer was precisely that. I reminded him of

2 the system which had been set up and should have been functioning. And so

3 at the top of the pyramid was the president of the republic.

4 Q. Were you also trying to indicate in any way that there was a basis

5 for concern about the security of -- and safety of Muslims in Sokolac?

6 A. I suppose that Mr. Karadzic had the information concerning all the

7 events up until that stage and some of the municipalities that received

8 those telegrams. And I believe that it was an attempt that for whatever

9 had already happened in those municipalities, that the presidents of those

10 municipalities were to be blamed. And I think, to say the least, that it

11 was unfair.

12 Q. Did you get -- ever get any response to your reply to

13 Dr. Karadzic?

14 A. There was no reaction. And especially then -- and also with

15 regard to an earlier event in June that I have not mentioned here but it

16 had to do with a very difficult phone conversation I had with him. I

17 mean, our relationship was very cold, so to say, and especially as of then

18 we were just barely polite to one another. It would have been for the

19 best if Mr. Karadzic had sacked me then.

20 Q. What was the nature of the phone conversation you had with

21 Mr. Karadzic that was difficult?

22 A. Over the past few days when we talked, I have always try to stick

23 to the principle to answer the questions that were put to me, but I'm

24 going to make an attempt and sum it up in a couple sentences.

25 We mentioned the death of the late Drago Macar, who was the

1 battalion commander of the Motorised Brigade of Gorazde, and for your

2 information he was not killed in combat but a vehicle hit a mine, a

3 reconnaissance vehicle hit a mine, and he was killed. And the soldiers

4 from his own battalion, I don't know how many people there were there, was

5 kind of reluctant to go on after his death, which is kind of logical, and

6 they decided to go back to Sokolac.

7 So it was at some point on the 5th or 6th of June Mr. Karadzic

8 phone and I picked up the phone, and I did not know what was going on at

9 the time. And he said to necessity in an angry voice that I should

10 immediately implement all measures in order to stop the forces withdrawing

11 or coming back from Gorazde, otherwise I would be shot. I was really

12 shocked by that sort of conversation, especially as I didn't know what was

13 going on. And my answer was: Mr. President, you do what you like -- you

14 can do whatever you like, but I have no way of doing what you're asking me

15 to do. I was not the one who sent the armed forces to Gorazde. I'm not

16 in command of those armed forces, and, quite simply, I don't know what's

17 going on. He repeated his threat several times. I stuck to my original

18 position and he rang off afterwards. Obviously I didn't do a thing, and

19 quite soon I found out that the soldiers had already come almost to

20 Sokolac, five or six kilometres away.

21 On that day, for the first time, I seriously thought about

22 resigning my job, but keeping in mind the fact that war was raging

23 everywhere and that there were all sorts of problems and issues

24 everywhere, and the assembly, the Municipal Assembly was not working. I

25 knew that by doing that I would contribute an even greater degree of chaos

1 and disorder. And therefore I decided to hang in there and continue in

2 the job that I had.

3 Q. Mr. Tupajic, let me turn next to the village of Novoseoci. Was

4 that the last Muslim village against which the operations of the

5 2nd Romanija Brigade were conducted?

6 A. Novoseoci.

7 MR. TIEGER: I'm not directing the witness's attention to any part

8 of that packet, by the way.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just one thing, Mr. Prosecutor,

10 since the Muslims remained in the bordering village, Vrh Barje, up until

11 the end of 1994 almost, and it is the last village in which crime was

12 committed in September 1992.

13 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honour, just for clarification, it seems

14 the usher is directing the witness's attention to a document at the

15 moment; that was not my intention. I was just going to ask the witness

16 some questions about Novoseoci.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 So there's no need to consult any document.

19 MR. TIEGER:

20 Q. Mr. Tupajic, do you recall whether that was early or late

21 September 1992?

22 A. [No interpretation].

23 Q. And can you tell us what you know about what happened in Novo --

24 sorry, we didn't get an interpretation, although --

25 MR. TIEGER: We're having some technical difficulties I can see.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I did not receive any information -- not any

2 interpretation. And on channel 4, I do not hear my own voice, which is

3 not bad but ...

4 THE INTERPRETER: The witness said that this happened on the 22nd

5 of September, 1992.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The answer has now been translated.

7 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Tupajic, can you tell us what happened at Novoseoci on

10 September 22nd, 1992.

11 A. I learned about the crime in Novoseoci in the evening hours of

12 that same day from one soldier from the Romanija Brigade that was in that

13 sector and they were preparing fuel, wood, for their families. As they

14 were returning by that area, they passed by the crime scene and they saw

15 the bodies scattered around. They probably recognised some of those

16 bodies, and that's how they knew that the bodies belonged to the people of

17 Novoseoci.

18 Q. Over the course of the next couple of days, did you learn from

19 other soldiers or any other source that you can tell us about what had

20 happened at Novoseoci?

21 A. From that day until this very day, in Sokolac and in

22 Republika Srpska, the incident in Novoseoci is a taboo subject. However,

23 we learned on the grapevine that the night before, members of the

24 2nd Romanija Brigade had blocked the village with some of their troops,

25 and they carried out the operation on the 22nd of September. According to

1 the information that I have, there was no armed resistance in the village.

2 And then in the evening hours, after the women and the children had been

3 transported by buses to Sarajevo, this unprecedented crime took place.

4 Q. So when you say the 2nd Romanija Brigade blocked the village the

5 evening before, does that mean they essentially blocked access to it or

6 surrounded it to prevent people from coming in or people from leaving?

7 A. Precisely so. The village of Novoseoci is some eight or nine

8 kilometres away from Sokolac. And from the Sokolac-Rogatica road, it is

9 some four or five kilometres away. The village is somewhat separated from

10 all the other villages, and it was no problem to surround it completely,

11 in full secrecy even.

12 Q. Then you indicated that the women and children were apparently

13 separated from the men in the village and the women and children

14 transported by buses to Sarajevo.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How many men were the victims of what you described at the end of

17 your earlier answer as "this unprecedented crime"?

18 A. I don't know the exact number; however, the figure that is

19 mentioned is 45. I don't know whether that figure is correct or not. The

20 media in the Federation followed the event, and especially when there was

21 the exhumation of these bodies provided different figures. But I believe

22 there is some 40 or so victims altogether.

23 Q. And did you learn whether the men were killed in the village or

24 murdered elsewhere?

25 A. No. The crime scene is some five or six kilometres away from the

1 village. It is next to the Sokolac-Rogatica road in the Ivan Polje

2 sector, not far from the road, maybe a couple hundred metres away from it

3 as I was told. The crime scene is the landfill site that had existed

4 there since 1991.

5 Q. Landfill, you mean that's a garbage dump?

6 A. Yes, it's a garbage dump. This is where all the garbage from the

7 town was being taken by the utilities company. Earlier Sokolac and

8 Rogatica had a common garbage site. However, in 1990 and in 1991 the

9 situation was very difficult. And for economic reasons and for the lack

10 of fuel they could not transport the garbage that far, and this location

11 was opened as a temporary measure. During the month of May at the

12 meetings of the Crisis Staff, we discussed this issue because the vicinity

13 of that garbage site close to the road --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tupajic, the question was whether it was a

15 garbage dump. You started your answer says: "Yes, it's a garbage dump."

16 Then you told us a lot about the history of joint garbage dumps,

17 et cetera, which is not of great assistance to the Chamber. If any

18 further detail would be needed, then Mr. Tieger will certainly ask you for

19 it. We are under some time restraint; I hope you will have understanding

20 for that.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

23 MR. TIEGER:

24 Q. Did Novoseoci have a mosque before September 22nd, 1992?

25 A. Yes. It was a -- the most recently built mosque in the area of

1 Sokolac. It was completed a few years before that and the villages

2 started using it as of then.

3 Q. What happened to that mosque?

4 A. The mosque was blown up. I don't know whether the construction

5 material remained in the place or whether it was removed. I believe that

6 it was removed like from so many other places.

7 Q. Blown up by members of the 2nd Romanija Brigade?

8 A. Yes. The engineers of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade.

9 Q. How many mosques had there been in Sokolac municipality at the

10 beginning of 1992?

11 A. There were five mosques.

12 Q. And by the time the mosque at Novoseoci was destroyed by the

13 2nd Romanija Brigade, how many mosques remained in Sokolac municipality?

14 A. None. I believe that during these operations that we have just

15 discussed, the others had already been destroyed. I am not sure about the

16 one in Kosutica village, which is close to the Sokolac-Han Pijesak road.

17 I don't know whether this was blown up before the one in Novoseoci or

18 afterwards. In any case, within the scope of a few days there were no

19 mosques in the territory of Sokolac municipality.

20 Q. Mr. Tupajic, can you tell the Court, give the Court any insight

21 into why these mosques were destroyed?

22 A. There is a belief among the Serbs that if there are no mosques,

23 there are no Muslims. And by destroying the mosques, the Muslims will

24 lose a motive to return to their villages.

25 Q. I'm going to move on to the next exhibit in a moment, but before I

1 do I want to ask you who the commander of the 2nd Romanija Brigade was in

2 the summer of 1992?

3 A. The commander of the 2nd Romanija Brigade was Mr. Krstic. I don't

4 know whether his rank was colonel or lieutenant-colonel. I believe that

5 he was a lieutenant-colonel at the time.

6 Q. Do you know his first name?

7 A. Radislav Krstic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: The next document would be ...

9 MR. TIEGER: Yes, I'd like to turn to tab 6, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Tab 6, that would get number ...

11 THE REGISTRAR: That would be exhibit P844, with the

12 translation P844.1.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

14 Mr. Tupajic, have you found tab 6? You may have noticed that the

15 B/C/S version is at the back.

16 MR. TIEGER:

17 Q. Mr. Tupajic, tab 6 contains a B/C/S document and an English

18 translation of a document signed by you and dated October 9th, 1992. Can

19 you tell us, please, what that document is? And I'm referring to P844.

20 A. Reference is made to my resignation to the position of the

21 president of the municipality. I sent this document to the Municipal

22 Board of the Serbian Democratic Party of Sokolac and the war commission of

23 the municipality of Sokolac.

24 Q. Why did you send this document, Mr. Tupajic?

25 A. I have already said that I had seriously considered my resignation

1 already in June 1992. However, after all this had happened in the village

2 of Novoseoci, and bearing in mind all the other developments, I simply no

3 longer felt capable of performing my duties any further.

4 Q. Now, in the third sentence of that letter you stated that: "I am

5 no longer willing to accept the fact that so many harmful events have been

6 going on at the territory of the municipality and that I cannot change the

7 course of events."

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were you referring to the events that you've described to the

10 Court during the course of your testimony?

11 A. Precisely so, Mr. Prosecutor. I primarily had in mind what

12 happened in the village of Novoseoci and a number of other situations that

13 I mentioned in my earlier interviews I may not have mentioned on this

14 occasion.

15 Q. In the second paragraph of that letter, there's a sentence that

16 begins: "Since I have realised that the basic strategies and syntagm are

17 not adjusted to present times."

18 And you go on to say you think the post should be given to someone

19 else who can bear the heavy burden. What did you mean when you said that

20 the basic strategies are not adjusted to present times?

21 A. I was talking about my personal views as a human being, believing

22 that they were not in line with what was going on in Sokolac and in

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina. What I had in mind was that I could no longer bear

24 all those things, that I could not come to terms with those things.

25 Q. How did the members of the Municipal Board respond to your

1 submission of this letter?

2 A. There were no official reaction at all. My letter was obstructed.

3 However, in my -- in verbal contacts I was told that there was no reason

4 for me to do that and that bearing in mind the difficult moments that we

5 were facing at the time I should not do that.

6 Q. And were you told verbally by the members of the Municipal Board

7 that you shouldn't do that because you were such an effective local leader

8 or because that your resignation at that time and this letter would have

9 some other kind of detrimental effect?

10 A. Yes, both parts of the reason are probably true. My resignation

11 would have opened a number of other issues, which were then secret and

12 some of which are still secret. Likewise, they could not have any

13 objections to my part of the job, the job that -- the job that I was in

14 charge of. I really did my utmost to put in place the conditions for

15 people to be fed and the risk that was necessary in the face of very

16 adverse conditions that prevailed at the time.

17 Q. Was your resignation letter seen by members of the Municipal

18 Board, with whom you talked, as a condemnation of the policies that then

19 existed?

20 A. I believe that this was the position. I suppose that there had

21 been consultations with the superior officials, and they were very

22 determined. I had insisted for a long time on all that, but they were

23 determined when they asked me to withdraw my resignation.

24 Q. Did you eventually withdraw your resignation, and if so, why?

25 A. I didn't. In the meantime, there was another incident that I

1 personally found very grave. My car was blown up one evening. I don't

2 know whether this was done on purpose in order to kill me or just to warn

3 me very seriously that I should stop insisting on my resignation. I don't

4 know what the intention was. After that, I was more concerned of the

5 well-being of my family than of my own well-being. I took this as the

6 last warning, and I tacitly continued performing the duties that I had

7 been performing up to then.

8 Q. And, Mr. Tupajic, can you turn to tab 7, please?

9 MR. TIEGER: And can that be marked next in order.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be ...

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, P845, with the translation 845.1.

12 Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

14 MR. TIEGER:

15 Q. Mr. Tupajic, tab 845 -- or excuse me, P845 contains a report of an

16 incident on November 12th, 1992, at 2205 hours in Sokolac. Does that

17 reflect a report on the blowing up of your car, as you related to us?

18 A. Yes, Mr. Prosecutor. However, this was on the 12th of October,

19 1992.

20 Q. Thank you for that clarification, and of course the document does

21 reflect the 12th of October.

22 Mr. Tupajic, did you report the massacre at Novoseoci to

23 Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, or any other member of the Bosnian Serb or

24 RS leadership?

25 A. I did not report to anybody about what had happened in Novoseoci.

1 Q. And can you tell the Court why not, please?

2 A. For several reasons, perhaps. The first and the most important

3 one was the fact that this happened towards the end of September 1992, and

4 I personally and many others had information at the time that even uglier

5 things and graver things had happened elsewhere in the municipalities that

6 we have mentioned and in other municipalities all over Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina. And that nothing had been done in order to punish the

8 organisers and perpetrators of those crimes.

9 The second reason was somewhat less important. It was my -- the

10 reason of my own safety again. Earlier on on several occasions, I and my

11 associates had been accused of having betrayed the military secrets of the

12 2nd Romanija Brigade, and I believe that a report of that nature would

13 have been construed in the same way. This is the first time ever that any

14 of the former or current officials of the Serbian Democratic Party or the

15 Serbian republic is speaking about the crime that took place in Novoseoci.

16

17 Q. You said that the first and most important reason why you didn't

18 report the crime was the fact that this -- was the fact that even uglier

19 and graver things had happened in other municipalities all over Bosnia

20 and Herzegovina and that nothing had been done to punish the organisers

21 and perpetrators of that -- of those crimes. In deciding whether or not

22 to report the crime that happened at Novoseoci and the other crimes that

23 happened in the municipality, did you consider whether or not

24 Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, and any of the other republican leaders had

25 at least as much information about what had happened in Bosnia and

1 Herzegovina as you?

2 A. At the time I believed that this was an obligation of the organs

3 that we have mentioned, starting with the state security, the public

4 security, and the military organs. I thought that they should use their

5 lines of information to inform about various events, to inform their

6 superiors and the most responsible people in various departments. And

7 they in turn should have, and I believe that they did, report about these

8 events to the highest bodies of the Serbian republic.

9 Q. So I'm trying to be clear on this. When you told us that one of

10 the reasons you didn't report it was that nothing had been done to punish

11 the perpetrators of the grave crimes about which you knew in other

12 municipalities, did that mean that you believed that the republican

13 leadership knew about those crimes but didn't want to do anything to

14 punish them --

15 MR. STEWART: Well, that does rather lead on a flimsy foundation

16 from the previous questions and answers, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

18 MR. TIEGER:

19 Q. Mr. Tupajic, you told us that part of your basis for not reporting

20 it was the fact that nothing had been done to punish the crimes about

21 which you knew. Why then didn't you report it to Dr. Karadzic,

22 Mr. Krajisnik, or any other republican leader so that something -- in an

23 effort on your part to try to get something done about it, about

24 Novoseoci?

25 A. I didn't send any reports because I knew that nothing would be in

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1 this case.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I see that you're looking at the clock.

3 How much time --

4 MR. TIEGER: How much additional time would I need, Your Honour?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 MR. TIEGER: It's difficult to say. Maybe 15 minutes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just wondering whether we could perhaps finish

8 before the break, then have the break a bit later.

9 MR. TIEGER: I have no objection to that, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and it's always encouraging if you know that

11 there's a need for a break, to stick to the time limits.

12 Yes.

13 MR. STEWART: May I mention a very simple practical point, Your

14 Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MR. STEWART: It may is seem trivial, but the canteen closes

17 at 4.00, and if we are going to have breaks, it wouldn't be bad to have

18 them when the facilities are available to us.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's -- well, if you're insisting on that, I'll

20 do it.

21 MR. STEWART: I'm not insisting, Your Honour. I'm just mentioning

22 it. For everybody concerned, it is at least a small practical

23 consideration.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, if you would promise me that you would be

25 as strict after the break as you would be before without the special

1 encouragement we would have a break, and --

2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, no incentive needed to be as efficient

3 as possible.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Then, yes, we'll have a break until 10 minutes

5 past 4.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

7 [The witness stands down]

8 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

9 JUDGE ORIE: May the witness be brought into the courtroom.

10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour --

11 JUDGE ORIE: I hope you enjoyed your afternoon tea.

12 MR. STEWART: I did. And I'm happy to say, Your Honour, the Trial

13 Chamber was also represented in the canteen.

14 JUDGE ORIE: That's good.

15 MR. STEWART: I like to look after everybody --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I know how important afternoon tea for English

17 people is.

18 MR. STEWART: I'm delighted to see them as well, Your Honour.

19 While we have a couple of minutes. Your Honour, may we make this

20 request. Of course, Your Honour knows Mr. Josse's position in this case

21 and he's been here. On the Defence side, it would be very helpful, and I

22 would like very much Mr. Josse to deal with a witness who is coming up on

23 Friday. I won't say the name because just all of a sudden I'm not 100

24 per cent confident whether it's open or closed. 537 is the number, Your

25 Honour. Mr. Josse of course is not technically lead or co-counsel at the

1 moment, but he is an English barrister of 20 years call. And would it be

2 acceptable to Your Honour that Mr. Josse would deal with this witness for

3 the Defence?.

4 JUDGE ORIE: We will consider that. I would have -- personally

5 now I'm speaking for myself, would have no problem. But I would like to

6 inquire into any kind of registration as counsel would be needed at the

7 registry, even if not assigned by the registry, I would try to find a

8 solution such that there's a proper administration of the function of

9 Mr. Josse in this courtroom because it might have some effect on other

10 situations where in other cases someone comes with a good friend who is a

11 good lawyer and who -- of course the Chamber is aware of the special

12 situation here, but before we give a final decision on it, we would like

13 to see that at least, in one way or the other, the position of Mr. Josse

14 is formalised.

15 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour. I very much appreciate that, Your

16 Honour. Could I just say two things. First of all, I have myself spoken

17 to the registry, who indicated at a pretty senior level, they have

18 indicated to me that as far as they're concerned, if Your Honours are

19 happy, there isn't a problem. I have also noticed sometimes in other

20 cases that occasionally in special circumstances legal consultants in

21 other cases have been permitted to address the court. But the first

22 point, Your Honour, is -- well, it's no secret that it was Mr. Petrov I

23 spoke to in the course of this afternoon, and of course he's on the

24 Rule 45 list.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will consider the matter --

2 MR. STEWART: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Stewart, and then you'll hear from us.

4 MR. STEWART: Do -- I do appreciate it very much. Is there a good

5 chance that Your Honours would be able to let us know in the course of

6 this afternoon? Because then --

7 JUDGE ORIE: We will at least discuss it during the next break, so

8 I hope that -- it depends on whether we could reach an agreement during

9 that --

10 MR. STEWART: We're all in favour of agreement, but it's just the

11 sooner everybody knows, the sooner they can get going on finalising

12 preparation.

13 Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand.

15 Then the witness may be brought into the courtroom.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

18 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Mr. Tupajic, we had just been talking about events in October of

20 1992 when you resigned and then when your car was blown up. I want to

21 return very briefly to the summer of 1992 and ask you whether during that

22 time the bodies of 37 Muslims were discovered in Sokolac municipality.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And can you tell us quickly about that, how were they discovered

25 and how were you informed, and what happened thereafter?

1 A. As far as I can remember, it happened in the month of May. I

2 can't remember the exact date. But one morning Mr. Slobodan Batinic, who

3 was the commander of the TO staff, and on the basis of that I can conclude

4 it was in May because the TO staff was abolished on the 21st of May.

5 Well, anyway, he came into my office at around 8.00 a.m. breathless

6 basically and he said, Mr. President, do you know what had happened? And

7 obviously I did not know, so I said, Tell me. I had no information. And

8 From Ravna Romanija he was called and told that one of the farmers who

9 took the animals, the cattle grazing, somewhere near Sabovski Grad came

10 across dead bodies. And then he, Mr. Batinic I mean, did not tell me

11 exactly who gave him that information. And I asked him, Well, do you know

12 anything else about that? And obviously he said he did not. And we were

13 both taken aback, shocked, by those news. And I said to him, Slobodan,

14 please go and inform the police chief straight away and go and check the

15 situation on the spot, and there's nothing else to do but make sure that

16 the bodies are buried, and then, upon your return, report back to me.

17 Q. And how had these people been killed?

18 A. Well, we don't know the details, but on the basis of what he saw

19 and what he told me, we assumed -- I mean, those were civilians; they were

20 wearing civilian clothes. And we supposed they must have been taken there

21 by some kind of vehicle and they were by the roadside. And we knew that

22 they were from some other territory because Mr. Batinic did not recognise

23 a single person. And because of his duties, because of the job that he

24 had for about 20 years at the TO staff and as a commander for a very long

25 time, he knew almost every single person in the municipality of Sokolac

1 because of their military service and all that. And he said to me,

2 President, these people are not from our area. And then he mentioned a

3 figure, about 30 or 35 people. I don't think he actually counted them one

4 by one. And on the basis of some other information we got later on and

5 through the media from Sarajevo, and especially when exhumations started

6 taking place in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and especially in the course of

7 the stay of Mr. Miller as the US ambassador in the BH when there was

8 fairly in-depth investigation on the group of Bosniaks who had

9 disappeared; they had been taken somewhere from the part of Sarajevo

10 called Nedzarici. So on the basis of all that, my conclusion was that it

11 was possible that those people who were killed at Ravna Romanija on that

12 occasion could have been that group from Nedzarici.

13 About two years ago a newspaper from Sarajevo, Slobodna Bosna,

14 wrote an article about that event. I don't know what their source of

15 information was, because this event too is something that I'm talking

16 about publicly for the first time. It has never been talked about in the

17 Republika Srpska so far. And fewer people know about it in Sokolac as

18 well than about this other event that we mentioned earlier in Novoseoci.

19 Two years ago, since I provided that information at that stage as

20 well when I was passing through that road in the direction of Sarajevo.

21 And on one day I noticed a couple of European police vehicles which were

22 precisely at the point of juncture between that macadam road and the

23 highway. As to whether they were doing anything in terms of exhumating

24 [as interpreted] bodies or whatever, I'm not aware of that. The only

25 thing I was concerned about at that stage was that, for example, when I

1 come back from The Hague I might run into even greater difficulties. And

2 I was having quite a few difficulties when I first came back from The

3 Hague to begin with.

4 Q. Mr. Tupajic, just very quick follow-up or clarifying questions.

5 First of all, what ethnicity were those people?

6 A. They were Muslims.

7 Q. Second, you said they were killed. By what means were they

8 killed? Were they shot or something else?

9 A. On the basis of what Mr. Batinic reported back to me, they were

10 shot.

11 Q. Finally, what was done with the bodies in 1992 after their

12 discovery?

13 A. The bodies were buried on the spot where they had originally been

14 found. I believe, and that is what Batinic told me, I think that they

15 used some road-digging equipment from the Romanija Putevi company, and I

16 think that they buried the bodies there on the spot.

17 Q. I'm going to return now, as we were discussing before, to the

18 autumn of 1992. You mentioned in --

19 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. Tieger, I do apologise. Were

20 those people only men? We haven't heard about that.

21 MR. TIEGER:

22 Q. Mr. Tupajic, I believe you heard the Judge's question.

23 A. Yes. That is only men, on the basis of what I was told, or

24 rather, what Mr. Batinic told me.

25 Q. Now, during your earlier testimony you mentioned meetings and

1 visits by Mr. Krajisnik during 1992. Can I ask you to turn next to tab 8

2 of the materials in front of you. And, Mr. Tupajic, I would direct your

3 attention to the two pages that are marked 0115-1435 and 1436. And you'll

4 find those markings both toward the top of the page. And in the English

5 translation it would be pages 8 and 9 of that series. Page 8 begins with

6 a notation "12 November 1992," and page 9 begins with the words "solution

7 for."

8 MR. TIEGER: And those are the pages I would like marked as the

9 next exhibit, Your Honour.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the original document number

11 0115-1435 and 0115-1436 will be given Prosecution Exhibit P846 and the

12 translation on page 8 and 9 will be given 846.1. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, was it your intention just to tender

14 these pages or the whole package?

15 MR. TIEGER: Just those pages, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Just those pages.

17 MR. TIEGER:

18 Q. Mr. Tupajic, you see the two pages I was referring to, 0115-1435

19 and 0115-1436. The first page has a notation at the top of November 11,

20 1992.

21 A. Mr. Prosecutor, what I have here is the 12th of November, 1992.

22 Q. That's correct. And as you'll see there's a stamped marking next

23 to it which should say 0115-1435.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Then we are on the same page. Can I ask you to turn to the next

1 page, which is 0115-1436, and direct your attention to the second entry on

2 that page next to an asterisk which says, Cyrillic letters: "In town

3 urgent."

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And can you tell the Court what that entry reflects, please.

6 A. As far as I can remember, it was a reminder for myself, after

7 presumably a number of interventions on the part of Mr. Krajisnik, with

8 regard to the fact that we should replace any indications or anything

9 written in the Latin alphabet in the Cyrillic alphabet, and he probably

10 said it urgently because it was a form of criticism that we had not done

11 it before, because on a number of occasions beforehand Mr. Krajisnik

12 always insisted that we should do that.

13 Q. And was this particular notation made at the time or shortly after

14 one of Mr. Krajisnik's visits to Sokolac and discussions with you?

15 A. I'm unable to claim that, but I do know that on the occasion of

16 every visit he made to Sokolac, Mr. Krajisnik pointed it out to me and

17 would make comments to that effect. My answer at that stage was,

18 Mr. President - and I was half joking - we have more urgent matters to

19 attend to, and we must allocate funds to more pressing matters at the

20 moment.

21 Q. Do you recall any other visits to Sokolac by Mr. Krajisnik in the

22 later part of 1992, that is November, December?

23 A. In December -- no, certainly there was a visit on the 19th of

24 November and there was a religious holiday. And apart from Mr. Karadzic

25 and General Mladic, Mr. Krajisnik was there as well. As to another visit

1 with that two-month period, I can't recall at the moment. There was

2 another visit earlier in conjunction with a misunderstanding that we once

3 again had with the command of the Romanija Brigade. And Mr. Krajisnik

4 came as a kind of peacekeeping or peacemaking mission. I can't remember

5 exactly what time it was, what month.

6 Q. You mentioned the five mosques in Sokolac municipality that had

7 existed at the beginning of 1992 and that had been destroyed by September

8 or the beginning of October 1992. When those mosques were standing, could

9 any of them be seen from the main road?

10 A. From the main road you could see two mosques: The one in

11 Novoseoci, which is next to the road between Sokolac and Rogatica; and the

12 other one in the village of Kosutica, which is next to the highway

13 Sokolac-Han Pijesak-Zvornik. As to the others, they were close to local

14 roads and they were impossible to see from the main road.

15 Q. I think you also mentioned in your earlier testimony

16 that "Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik and other officials of

17 Republika Srpska passed through Sokolac quite often on the road from Pale

18 and Zvornik -- or from Pale to Belgrade."

19 Is that main road -- is that the main road that we're talking

20 about now?

21 A. Yes. That road goes next to the village of Kosutica, where there

22 was indeed a mosque.

23 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Krajisnik was consistently insistent on

24 changing Latin lettering to Cyrillic. Did Mr. Krajisnik ever mention to

25 you anything about the mosques that had been destroyed and were no longer

1 standing?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did he ever mention anything to you about the burned Muslim

4 villages or the Muslims who were no longer in Sokolac?

5 A. No.

6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour --

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Tupajic.

8 MR. TIEGER: -- that concludes the examination-in-chief.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

10 Is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness, Mr. Stewart?

11 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, when I just get myself physically

12 organised.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tupajic, you will now be cross-examined by

14 Mr. Stewart, counsel for the Defence.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Stewart:

16 Q. Mr. Tupajic, you at the very beginning of your evidence this week,

17 you ran through some main dates in your political career. You'd been

18 elected to the National Assembly in 1996 and been president of the SDS

19 Deputies' Club from 1998 until last year. You became a member of the SDS

20 Main Board in 2002. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And that's the first time that you had membership of that -- of

23 that board?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When were you removed from your positions, your political

1 positions, by the high representative?

2 A. It happened on the 29th of June, last year. I was hospitalised at

3 Kasindol, as I had a heart attack on the 18th of June, and so I was being

4 treated there.

5 Q. During your political career, as you've described it, what

6 happened between 1993 and 1996? That's to say, what were your -- in a

7 nutshell, what were your political activities during that period?

8 A. At that time, I was the president of the municipality of Sokolac

9 and was a member of the Municipal Board of the Serb Democratic Party at

10 Sokolac.

11 Q. So clearly you remained a member of the SDS throughout the whole

12 period?

13 A. Yes. I'm still a member of the SDS, but I cannot occupy any

14 positions, nor do I indeed occupy any positions in the SDS.

15 Q. From August 1990 when you first joined the SDS party until your

16 political career was terminated by the high representative a year ago

17 today, was there any break in your membership of the SDS?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you have any concerns about the leadership of the SDS at any

20 time from 1993 up to the 29th of June, last year?

21 A. The question is not clear enough. What do you mean by "concerns"?

22 Q. I'll put a slightly different question.

23 At any time from 1993 up to the 29th of June last year, did you

24 have any concerns about the leadership of the SDS which led you to

25 question whether you should continue as a member of the party?

1 A. I am a person who is prone to self-criticism and also I'm always

2 ready to address criticism to my friends, and that criticism is all with

3 good intention. In certain situations, especially at the local level, I

4 did always try to influence the work of the Municipal Board and the

5 decisions that would benefit primarily the citizens of Sokolac

6 municipality and Republika Srpska. I was more or less successful in doing

7 that --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have any particular

10 power --

11 JUDGE ORIE: The question, to put it in simply -- in simple words

12 was: Did you ever think: I should resign as an SDS party member because

13 of those leaders being at the top of it? That was the question, if I

14 translated it --

15 MR. STEWART: Absolutely, Your Honour. I'm more than happy with

16 that.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course there were situations in

18 which I personally found myself in disagreement with some of the positions

19 that were put forth by the leadership and the Main Board of the SDS.

20 However, I always thought, and I still think, that it is better to be

21 inside to try and act and change things, if at all possible.

22 MR. STEWART:

23 Q. So you have seen yourself as some restraining or moderating

24 influence on SDS policies, have you, during your -- the last few years of

25 your political career?

1 A. In my position as a deputy and the head of the club of deputies, I

2 had the possibility to exert changes to the political agenda of the SDS.

3 Through my work in the National Assembly, I believe I clearly demonstrated

4 that because our work was very open to the general public, very

5 transparent.

6 Q. What was -- what was your personal -- what was your personal

7 agenda? What did you personally hope to achieve in politics by

8 becoming -- being elected to the National Assembly as an SDS member in

9 1996?

10 A. I'm a very modest person. I don't have any political ambitions.

11 I've never had any particular political ambitions. I believe that being a

12 member of the National Assembly, which has been tested on several

13 occasions on the open list was the confirmation of my very dedicated work

14 in my previous positions. I've never had any ambition to rise to a high

15 political position in any body of either Republika Srpska or Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina. All these years I have lived during the war and after the

17 war with the citizens I represented and I have led a quiet and modest

18 life.

19 Q. So you unambitiously became president of the SDS Deputies' Club,

20 did you?

21 A. Let me tell you how this came about in a few sentences. This was

22 in October 1998. We had a family tragedy at that time. My 18-year-old

23 nephew died; he got killed. I believe that I got a call by Mr. Kalenic.

24 I was in the village at the time. First he apologised for calling me at

25 that moment, and he asked me whether I would be ready to assume the duties

1 as the head of the SDS Deputies' Club. My answer to that was: If you and

2 your associates deem that I can be successful in doing that, then I will

3 certainly accept the position.

4 Q. Mr. Tupajic, you were removed by the high representative, and I --

5 MR. STEWART: And, Your Honour, we can produce copies of this over

6 the next break as necessary.

7 Q. The actual decision of Lord Ashdown, the high representative, you

8 were removed because in his view you were: "In whole or in part culpable

9 for the SDS's failure to purge the political landscape of conditions -- of

10 sustenance of individuals indicted under Article 19 as aforesaid and your

11 failings were inimicable to stability and the rule of law. Milan Tupajic

12 therefore obstructs the process of peace implementation and must be

13 removed from office forthwith."

14 Now, I take it that you are familiar with that element of the

15 decision to remove you?

16 A. Yes, I'm familiar with the text of the decision. I have it with

17 me here in The Hague.

18 Q. Do you protest that as being unjust and unfair?

19 A. I appreciate that Mr. Ashdown is not completely satisfied with the

20 political agenda or at least a part of it. I don't know which part of the

21 political agenda of the SDS, although this political agenda has greatly

22 changed lately with respect to the former times.

23 I can say here that my contribution was very significant towards

24 the vital reforms that have been carried out in Bosnia and Herzegovina

25 lately. Let me mention but a few --

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1 Q. Well, just before you -- before you do, Mr. Tupajic, you are in a

2 particular category of relatively -- not very numerous category of people

3 who have been removed indefinitely. 11 people have been -- were removed

4 around that time indefinitely and can only resume a political career with

5 the expressed sanction of Lord Ashdown or his successor. Correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You say that you have been active in trying to bring to justice

8 individuals indicted for crimes during the conflict in former Yugoslavia?

9 A. This is what I was going to talk about, and this can be easily

10 checked with Mrs. Biljana Maric, I believe that that is her name; she is

11 the Minister of Justice in the then-government of Mr. Mladen Ivanic.

12 Q. Mr. Tupajic, can we first of all establish that your answer is --

13 do you say that your answer is, yes, that you have been active, leaving

14 aside the details. Do you say, yes, you have been active in trying to

15 bring to justice --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You do?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Have you made representations --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- in that respect to the high representative?

22 A. No. Because neither I nor anyone else had an opportunity to do

23 that, although there was a round table in Banja Luka, and I spoke to

24 Mr. Ashdown and I told him what we did when the law on cooperation with

25 The Hague Tribunal was being passed. And this is something I was going to

1 tell you about when you interrupted me.

2 Q. Mr. Tupajic, do you agree that since 1992 and 1993 you -- or in

3 fact since the establishment of this Tribunal you have lived in some fear

4 of being, yourself, indicted?

5 A. I never lived in fear. I'm always ready to be held accountable

6 for whatever I do. This is the kind of person I am; this is the way I

7 behave. I was also aware of the fact that the time would come when the

8 grave issues would be opened about the territory of Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina, that there would be an investigation, that there would be

10 talks. And I knew, I was aware, that I would not be bypassed. As for

11 whether an indictment would be issued or not, this was up to the

12 investigators and those who were in charge of making such a decision.

13 Q. Well, obviously, Mr. Tupajic. But my question -- let's downgrade

14 it then. Do you agree that for a number of years you have lived under a

15 degree of anxiety that you might well be among those indicted for crimes

16 during the conflict in former Yugoslavia?

17 A. No. My answer is no.

18 Q. Mr. Tupajic, that's unreal, isn't it? You know perfectly well

19 that you are widely regarded as a potential -- as a potential criminal and

20 somebody who could potentially be brought to justice for actions during

21 that period, aren't you, and you know that?

22 A. That is your opinion. It may be shared by some others.

23 Q. How did you first come into contact with representatives of the

24 Office of the Prosecution of this Tribunal?

25 A. The first time it was in Banja Luka after a conversation with

1 Mr. Trivun Jovicic who asked me whether I would be willing to talk to the

2 investigators from The Hague. I said, of course, why not? And I asked

3 him to let me know the time and the place, and that is what happened.

4 That's what he did.

5 Q. Well, you said "why not," Mr. Tupajic because you knew perfectly

6 well that it was a very dangerous thing for you to refuse, didn't you?

7 A. Sir, I've just told you that given the position that I discharged

8 at the time on behalf of the SDS, and I repeat, I knew that when the

9 investigation started that the time would come for me to be given an

10 opportunity to talk about what had happened in the territory of my

11 municipality. I was absolutely aware of that.

12 Q. And when you were first interviewed by the Office of the

13 Prosecution on the 2nd of December, 2002, you appreciated perfectly well,

14 didn't you, that you were a suspect?

15 A. Yes, this is what I was told.

16 Q. Do you regard yourself any longer as in danger of indictment by

17 this Tribunal?

18 A. I think that this is up to the Tribunal. I believe that on the

19 basis of the documents and everything they have at their disposal, they

20 make a just and fair decisions. And I truly believe that in my case as

21 well there will be justice and fairness.

22 Q. Yes, isn't this the position, Mr. Tupajic, you personally as far

23 as this Tribunal is concerned, you feel reasonably confident that you're

24 in the clear and will not be indicted?

25 A. I have never discussed this issue with anybody.

1 Q. But you don't feel the same confidence in relation to be being

2 brought before a court in Bosnia and Herzegovina, do you?

3 A. I really don't know. This is not something that is on my mind at

4 the moment.

5 Q. I want to ask you about the document which was put to you.

6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it might be suitable if we were to put

7 the -- Lord Ashdown's decision --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, does it add anything to what you've read? I

9 have no problem to admit it.

10 MR. STEWART: I'm not insisting, Your Honour, at all --

11 JUDGE ORIE: No disagreement, I take it, that the quotation is a

12 correct one, Mr. Tieger?

13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I don't know that to be the case, but I

14 have no reason to think otherwise. I am confident Mr. Stewart read it out

15 correctly if he was reading from the document.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 MR. STEWART: Well, I was, Your Honour. We printed it off the

18 Internet. But we really -- it's from the official web site. We have no

19 reason to --

20 JUDGE ORIE: We leave it to you. But at least you have -- by

21 putting these questions to the witness you have informed the Chamber about

22 the reasons you learned for the dismissal of this witness.

23 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. The -- you were asked, Mr. Tupajic, about a document that's become

25 commonly known as Variants A and B dated 19th of December, 1991. That had

1 a previous exhibit number.

2 MR. STEWART: I wonder if the witness might have that document.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist Mr. Registrar, and

4 we --

5 MR. STEWART: Yes, it was --

6 JUDGE ORIE: It was --

7 MR. STEWART: It came in from Mr. Tieger's list ...

8 It's -- it was his item 1 on the list --

9 JUDGE ORIE: It's item 1, that's P43, P64A, P25 --

10 MR. STEWART: 2529 --

11 JUDGE ORIE: 2529, B122, and also D10. So D10 might be the

12 easiest to find.

13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I have got the one, it was number 93,

14 copy number 93, which was --

15 JUDGE ORIE: We have got one copy here. If it's put on the ELMO

16 and if you please could assist the usher, Mr. Stewart, as to what page.

17 MR. STEWART: Yes. The -- I'm wanting to go to the third page at

18 the moment, Your Honour --

19 JUDGE ORIE: B/C/S?

20 MR. STEWART: Oh, well, I'm so sorry. It's the third page of the

21 English. It's not --

22 JUDGE ORIE: For the witness it might be easier.

23 MR. STEWART: Yes, of course, Your Honour is quite right. It's

24 the third page of the B/C/S as well, including -- third page including the

25 cover page.

1 Q. Now, what you said -- first of all, Mr. Tupajic, you said -- this

2 is page 10 of Tuesday's transcript. You said: "I'm familiar with the

3 document, though I never had it on my files. It was sent by the Main

4 Board to the presidents of the Municipal Boards. It was confidential."

5 Now, first of all, do you in fact know that it was sent by the

6 Main Board to the presidents of the Municipal Boards?

7 A. You can see in the document that the document was issued by the

8 Main Board, and the body that issues such a document must send it, forward

9 it.

10 Q. Yes. You see, Mr. Tupajic, I want to make it clear what my

11 question is about. I'm not inviting you to tell us at this point what the

12 document says or what you infer from what it's -- how it's labelled. I'm

13 asking you -- or I'm putting it to you that you don't know who sent it to

14 whom, do you?

15 A. I don't know the technicalities of the way this document was

16 sent. However, if it was adopted by the Main Board of the SDS, then there

17 was a professional service sent the text of this instruction. I don't

18 know how they did it, whether they did it by recommended letters or by

19 hand or some other way. But it was sent to the presidents of the

20 Municipal Boards.

21 I apologise, Mr. President, I was interrupted earlier on when I

22 wanted to say a few things that were very important and that I as the

23 president of the club did in the Assembly. One sentence was taken out of

24 the context. There is a lot more that went into my removal, and I believe

25 that these things need to be explained so much from me, and I apologise

1 for this --

2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I didn't mean to stifle the witness

3 unfairly. I'm in Your Honour's hands.

4 JUDGE ORIE: We'll do that at the end. If there's anything to be

5 added in relation to your removal, you will have an opportunity to tell us

6 at the end. But Mr. Stewart is now allowed to continue.

7 At the same time, Mr. Stewart, it seems that the witness has

8 not --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... how the document

11 was -- how it travelled from its origin to its destination.

12 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, that's -- I can leave that point

13 then, if we can proceed then on that footing.

14 Q. The -- you say: "I believe that we discussed this document at the

15 sessions of the Municipal Board, but we, members of the Municipal Board,

16 were never familiarised with the integral text of the instruction."

17 Mr. Tupajic, are you saying that the Municipal Board never sat

18 down with this document in front of it?

19 A. I never had it, and on the basis of that I conclude that no other

20 members of the Municipal Board had the text of the document before them.

21 It is a fairly common practice for some documents to be discussed at the

22 sessions of the Municipal Board or other sessions, if those documents are

23 confidential, to be kept by the chairman, because if such documents were

24 to be distributed in 30 copies it was quite possible that they would no

25 longer be confidential after that. And I believe that this was the case

1 with this document as well, that the president kept it.

2 Q. Well, let's stick with knowledge as far as possible, Mr. Tupajic,

3 if that's different from belief here. Who was in the chair at meetings or

4 sessions of the Municipal Board between the end of December 1991 and the

5 beginning of April 1992?

6 A. As I've already said, the first president of the Municipal Board

7 which was elected at the Assembly was Mr. Mirko Malovic. He chaired the

8 sessions while he was there. At the beginning of 1992 he went to America,

9 and from then on the chairperson was Milovan Bjelovac [sic] until the

10 moment he was removed, sometime in March of 2003.

11 Q. At what point. You say at the beginning of 1992. As accurate as

12 you can, when did Mr. Mirko Malovic leave to go to the United States?

13 A. I don't know. I don't know the exact date of his departure.

14 Q. Mr. --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, there seems to be a problem as far as

16 the year is concerned. March was translated as March 2003. It now

17 disappeared from the transcript. Page 52, line 8.

18 When did you say that the successor chairperson was removed? Was

19 that in March of what year?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Milovan Bjelica --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- was removed from all the

23 positions by the high commissioner as far as I know in March of 2003.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So he held that position for some 11 years. Is

25 that a correct understanding?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

3 MR. STEWART:

4 Q. I'm going to press you a bit, Mr. Tupajic. This was -- in the

5 local politics of Sokolac, it was quite a significant event, wasn't it,

6 that the president of your SDS Municipal Board left to go to the

7 United States?

8 A. Well, I wouldn't attribute any special importance to that.

9 Mr. Mirko Malovic very fairly at the electoral Assembly, and I remember

10 that very clearly, informed all the members of the Assembly that was

11 electing him as president that some time ago he had submitted a request

12 for the departure to America and that he was expecting in the coming

13 months that his request would be approved and that he might well leave.

14 And apart from that he was elected by the Assembly as president, and

15 Mr. Milovan Bjelica was the deputy president. When Mr. Mirko Malovic

16 left, Mr. Milovan Bjelica took over, and for 11 years now he's been

17 leading the Municipal Board of the SDS in Sokolac.

18 Q. In this period of rather unusual events, can you even put a month

19 on Mr. Malovic's leaving his position as president of the SDS Municipal

20 Board?

21 A. I've already said that I couldn't remember exactly, but in the

22 first few months of 1992, I can't remember whether it was January or

23 February.

24 Q. And do you say then that either or both of those gentlemen then,

25 as -- in the chair as the president of the Municipal Board, had in front

1 of him at some point this Variants A and B document while it was being

2 discussed by you and your colleagues on that board?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In January, February, and March, or at some time during that

5 period. Is that what you say?

6 A. Well, they had it then and presumably it was in the archives of

7 the Municipal Board. I don't know. I don't know what happened to it

8 later.

9 Q. And you, Mr. Tupajic, and none of your other colleagues asked to

10 actually see this document during that period when it was under

11 discussion? Is that what you're saying?

12 A. We as members of the Municipal Board were basically acquainted

13 with the substance of what was in that document and we knew what we were

14 supposed to know. I can't remember all the details about that because

15 after all it was as long as 13 years ago, maybe even longer.

16 Q. Mr. Tupajic, this is complete fabrication. You did not sit down

17 as a body and discuss this document or any form of this document during

18 that period, December to April 1992, did you?

19 A. Mr. Stewart, I do apologise. I'm not fabricating anything here.

20 I did say these past few days that we carried out certain activities,

21 following the instructions that are included in that document. I mean, I

22 did not quite say that. What I did say was that I never had in my

23 possession this form of document. And I think that this is

24 understandable.

25 Q. Mr. Tupajic, your -- do you agree your reason for security and not

1 disseminating copies of this document, if it were to be passed around the

2 table for you all to look at and handed back to the chairman, that would

3 have retained security, wouldn't it?

4 A. I don't understand your point, but if a document is copied we have

5 about 30 members of the Municipal Board, if you make 30 copies and you

6 circulate it to the members of the Municipal Board and then they go away

7 and take it out, it is no longer a confidential document.

8 Q. Was it handed back at the end of the meeting --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tupajic --

10 MR. STEWART: Sorry, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You have misunderstood Mr. Stewart. Mr. Stewart says

12 there's no logic in the reason you've given because if that one document

13 which was in the hand of the chairperson would have circulated without

14 having been copied around the table, then you would have seen it and there

15 would have been no additional security risk. That's what he puts to you.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I agree that it could have

17 been done. I don't know whether it was done in that way or whether it was

18 just the summary or the document in its entirety that had been read out by

19 the president. The only thing I said was that I never had it in my files,

20 and that's the truth.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, the Chamber is of the opinion that this

22 matter has been sufficiently dealt with. Would you please move to --

23 MR. STEWART: With great respect, Your Honour, I completely agree

24 and I was just moving on to the next point, but still on this document,

25 though.

1 Q. Mr. Tupajic, it was put to you that a number of steps that were

2 taken in Sokolac were in pursuance of this document or an implementation

3 of this document. I'm going to put it to you generally, in the interests

4 of pressing on, Mr. Tupajic, not a single step that you described in your

5 evidence was taken specifically in pursuance of this document; it just

6 happens that some of the things that were done do coincide with some of

7 the instructions in this document. That's the truth of the matter, isn't

8 it?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Well, let me just put this to you then, Mr. Tupajic, do you agree

11 that if it had been intended by the Municipal Board to actually implement

12 this document, it would have been just obvious, practical common sense, to

13 go through it item by item and check them off, wouldn't it?

14 A. I think it could not have been done in that way because certain

15 activities are referred to there that were supposed to be carried out over

16 a number of months and not within another period. I'm not sure I quite

17 understand the question.

18 Q. Mr. Tupajic, you have now since whenever, you have studied this

19 document at some point, have you, gone through it, seen what's contained

20 in it?

21 A. For the most part, but I didn't actually go into every detail

22 because there is a great deal of repetition as well.

23 Q. You talked about the arrangements, and this was in reference to

24 Exhibit 828, but you talked about -- I'm going to go into it for a moment,

25 you talked about the arrangements made for members of the Sokolac Crisis

1 Staff in relation to military service. And you said that, this is page 14

2 of Tuesday's transcript, yesterday's transcript, you said that: "All

3 able-bodied men fit for military service had to be registered and had to

4 have a certain assignment. We," and then going on a few lines to the foot

5 of that page. "We received information from Mr. Ceranic, head of the

6 Crisis Staff, that in view of the work we were doing we will have the

7 benefit of service time spent in this job being counted double as other

8 mobilised people have. I asked on that occasion that we receive more

9 detailed information on what we were supposed to do from the body that set

10 up the Crisis Staff in the first place."

11 And what was that body that set up the Crisis Staff in the first

12 place?

13 A. The Crisis Staff was set up on the basis of an order that came

14 from Mr. Karadzic.

15 Q. So are you saying that when you -- you asked -- this is your

16 evidence after all. You asked to receive more detailed information from

17 the body that set up the Crisis Staff in the first place. So do you mean

18 that you asked that you receive more detailed information from

19 Dr. Karadzic? Is that what you say?

20 A. Well, if I said that I must have implied that. Because the order

21 to set up Crisis Staffs in all municipalities originally came from him,

22 and that's what we did.

23 Q. Well, was more detailed information obtained from Dr. Karadzic

24 about the way in which your service time on the Crisis Staff might be

25 counted for the purposes of your military service?

1 A. No. I think that we never asked for information from Mr. Karadzic

2 in that respect. You are emphasising something that I just said in

3 passing. Basically what we got from Mr. Ceranic was that all able-bodied

4 men had to be assigned to some kind of duty. And he suggested that since

5 we had already been set up following the orders from Mr. Karadzic, that we

6 should be assigned to duties within the Crisis Staff of the municipality

7 of Sokolac. And then he said, by the way, that there was a possibility

8 which was not really of essential importance for us and it never came

9 about because we never made an issue of it.

10 Q. When did this happen, this information that you got from

11 Mr. Ceranic, head of the Crisis Staff, when do you say you got that

12 information?

13 A. Mr. Ceranic was a member of the Crisis Staff but he was the chief

14 of the defence ministry department. It was at one of the meetings of the

15 Crisis Staff. I don't have any documents in front of me; I just can't

16 tell you off the cuff. I don't remember the date.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger --

18 MR. STEWART: Sorry, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger is on his feet.

20 MR. TIEGER: The responses of the witness to which Mr. Stewart was

21 earlier referring occurred after the presentation of the specific

22 document, and I thought that might be of assistance if he's searching for

23 a date.

24 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber yesterday wondered already to what extent

25 bureaucratic procedures and double-counted time would greatly assist in

1 determining this case. I was, as a matter of fact, referring to that

2 yesterday when I was addressing the Prosecution. The Defence has put some

3 questions on it now.

4 Mr. Stewart, perhaps it's good for you to know that at least the

5 subject of the bureaucratic accounting of years is not something that is

6 at the top of the priority list of the Chamber.

7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it's very close to the bottom of mine,

8 and I thought it would have been apparent that it's not the bureaucratic

9 procedures which are the points of these questions. They are simply the

10 underlying background and context that this was about.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. STEWART: I'm not interested, Your Honour, on the Defence's

13 part at all in these bureaucratic procedures for themselves --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's -- the Chamber would highly appreciate

15 if that could become perfectly clear from questions and hopefully from

16 answers as well.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. STEWART: Well, I'm in favour of the latter as well, Your

19 Honour.

20 Q. When do you say that Mr. Ceranic -- Mr. Ceranic was at some point

21 head of the Crisis Staff, was he?

22 A. No, I was the president of the Crisis Staff throughout.

23 Mr. Ceranic, according to his position as head of defence ministry

24 department, was also the head of the Crisis Staff throughout.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, correction, a member, not the head.

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1 MR. STEWART: Thank you for the correction which I was -- I was

2 really struggling there before that correction, Your Honour.

3 Thank you.

4 Q. So, Mr. Tupajic, relief all around I think.

5 The -- page 14, line 25, you don't have that in front of you.

6 Yesterday when you said: "We received information from Mr. Ceranic, head

7 of the Crisis Staff," that's a slip or an error somewhere and he never

8 was, he was a member, you were the head. Correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. You described -- again, it relates to a document P832 concerning

11 the Sokolac psychiatric hospital.

12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I make it clear, I'm not the least bit

13 interested in the details of organisation of the hospital or treatment of

14 patients or anything like that.

15 Q. But you said it was the ministry -- this is page 21 of yesterday's

16 transcript, line 3: "It was the Ministry of Health and the government of

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina who were supposed to deal with the problem but we

18 ourselves took it upon ourselves to collect information and to forward

19 this information to the competent ministry and the government that would

20 then try and solve at least part of the hospital's problems."

21 And the ministry was very obviously the Ministry of Health, wasn't

22 it, Mr. Tupajic?

23 A. Yes. Plus the initiative to try to and solve the problem of how

24 many people, and they were crowded at the hospital, came from the hospital

25 director.

1 Q. And the minister was Mr. Kalenic at the time, wasn't he?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And none of these issues relating to this hospital, financial, or

4 other organisational issues in any way involved Dr. Karadzic or

5 Mr. Krajisnik, did they?

6 A. According to the organisation and the duties within the framework

7 of the work of the government, no. But the government was accountable to

8 the National Assembly for their work, and of course the president of the

9 republic.

10 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Tupajic, that does sufficiently answer my

11 question. And we see in that document, that's P832, I won't trouble

12 unless somebody else wants me to put it in front of you. Item 2 there

13 says: "Authorised employees of the psychiatric hospital are to take care

14 of all the patients until a solution to financing the hospital and its

15 further status has been found."

16 All the patients, apart from anything else, was -- to make clear,

17 wasn't it, Mr. Tupajic, you've signed this document, to make clear that

18 that was without discrimination on any grounds of ethnicity or

19 nationality, wasn't it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You said that the person who had the most -- this is at page 29 of

22 yesterday's transcript and you were being asked by Mr. Tieger, you said

23 that you'd looked at -- the question of reports to the republic level and

24 interaction with the republic level. And then you said that the person

25 who had the most contacts with the SDS leadership and the leadership of

1 Republika Srpska was Milovan Bjelovac and then Mr. Marko Simic who was a

2 deputy and the first president of the municipality of Sokolac. So you're

3 putting it in that order, are you, that Mr. Bjelovac [sic] had the most

4 contact and then second to him in degree or extent of contact was

5 Mr. Simic? Is that what you're saying?

6 A. Yes, but maybe I should make a correction. It was Mr. Milovan

7 Bjelica, not Bjelovac.

8 Q. Yes, I see that. It's a mistake in the transcript, Bjelica, the

9 same gentleman we've been talking about. You're nodding. That appears to

10 be confirmed.

11 Then you said: "Members of the Crisis Staff had occasional

12 contacts but mostly with the government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

13 and Herzegovina."

14 When you're talking there mostly with the government of the

15 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, you were talking, were you, of

16 contacts with ministries over specific issues, such as the hospital issue

17 that we were considering a moment ago?

18 A. Yes, amongst other things. The hospital issue and a whole range

19 of other issues as well.

20 Q. Well, the sort of issues, do you agree, that though they may have

21 been affected by the particular difficulties of the situation in early

22 1992 the sort of issues which arise in peacetime as in wartime?

23 A. Yes. Basically we had a war situation throughout, and any attempt

24 to implement peacetime laws, regulations, and relationships always caused

25 us quite a few difficulties on the ground.

1 Q. Do you have personal knowledge of the contacts that were made by

2 Mr. Bjelica with the SDS leadership and the leadership of Republika Srpska

3 in 1992?

4 A. Of course. I've mentioned this before. I can't claim that it

5 happened on a daily basis, but Bjelica had frequent contacts with the

6 leadership of the Serb Democratic Party, especially with Mr. Karadzic. We

7 also had the opportunity to witness one of those conversations. And later

8 on, in later years, he had a job at Pale and he went to Pale every day and

9 he spent time there.

10 Q. What can you say from your own personal knowledge about contacts

11 between Mr. Bjelica and Mr. Krajisnik in 1992?

12 A. I can only refer to meetings that we attended together. I know

13 that they did have other contacts, presumably less often than with

14 Mr. Karadzic, but they certainly had contacts.

15 Q. Tell us what the basis of your knowledge is. Leave aside the

16 meetings of which you give evidence yourself, what can you -- what's the

17 basis of your own knowledge then that they certainly had other contacts?

18 A. Well, I know -- I mean, of course you will ask me to refer to

19 specific occasions, but the atmosphere and the overall situation was such

20 as to require these contacts, and therefore those contacts happened. As

21 to the details of all that, I can't really talk about it and especially

22 when it comes to meetings and the details of meetings that I myself did

23 not attend. But I know on the basis of my conversations with him, I know

24 that he was entertaining a normal sort of communication with him.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, perhaps we could clarify this issue and

1 then have a break. It's 20 minutes to 6.00.

2 Mr. Stewart asked you how did you know about all these meetings.

3 He didn't ask for any details as far as the content is concerned. He just

4 wanted to know those meetings where you were not personally present, how

5 did you know about the other meetings Mr. Bjelica had with Mr. Krajisnik.

6 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour, but I -- the question is clearly

7 a response in direct -- directly addressed to that question in the latter

8 part of the witness's answer. I don't know if the Court is directing the

9 witness's attention to something else, but it seems to me the last

10 sentence is a direct response to that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps I may have overlooked it because I

12 was preparing for my intervention. I might have not sufficiently,

13 carefully listened to the witness.

14 When you said that: "But I know on the basis of my conversations

15 with him," did you refer to conversations with Mr. Bjelica?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And he told you that he had these meetings with

18 Mr. Krajisnik?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 Then I --

22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, don't -- I'm not sure the

23 word "meetings" came into it. I say I'm not sure. I'm being careful --

24 JUDGE ORIE: No, I do agree. He said "entertaining a normal sort

25 of communication with him." But he said that in the context of questions

1 about meetings.

2 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour, not quite. I had mentioned

3 meetings in order to exclude them. He had mentioned the meetings and I

4 said "leaving aside the meetings."

5 JUDGE ORIE: When you say that he told you that he was

6 entertaining a normal sort of communication with Mr. Krajisnik, what kind

7 of normal sort of communication he was referring to?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may, Your Honour, yesterday we

9 had an intercept here. And in the course of that intercept there is a

10 reference between -- to contact, to communication between Mr. Bjelica and

11 Mr. Krajisnik; that was in just one intercept. So when I'm saying, for

12 example, that when it came to oil supplies or whatever, because

13 Mr. Bjelica unofficially for a long time was managing the Romanija petrol

14 company that was in charge of supplying fuel to the municipality. And so

15 he always talked about these matters to Mr. Krajisnik or to his brother,

16 and there must have been a whole host of other issues like that.

17 JUDGE ORIE: What there must have been is a different matter.

18 He told you that he had communication with Mr. Krajisnik; it could

19 be any kind. It could be telephone conversations, it could be writing

20 letters to each other, it could be personal meetings. Did he tell you

21 what these communications were? Were those meetings? Were those

22 telephone conversations? Were those correspondence?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Less about correspondence. I can't

24 recall all the details, but at that time it was normal. We talked about

25 it and I do know that they were in touch. I can't say what exactly they

1 talked about and how many times, but I do know that they were in touch --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that for certain and probably

4 quite often.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The issue is how they were in touch. Did he

6 say, We meet? Did he say, We call each other by telephone? Or don't you

7 remember? Then it's ...

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he did not have a duty to tell

9 me anything, nor was he reporting to me on anything whatsoever. I

10 concluded that on the basis of what we talked about. And I think he often

11 met with Mr. Krajisnik, perhaps more often with Mr. Karadzic at Pale

12 because he was one of their -- of the people they trusted, and especially

13 that Mr. Karadzic trusted, and everybody knows that, and presumably there

14 were quite a few meetings that I never knew of, and that's the truth.

15 JUDGE ORIE: So I now do understand your testimony that you

16 concluded from your conversations with Mr. Bjelica, although it is not

17 clear to you anymore on what details you came to such a conclusion, that

18 the contacts he had with Mr. Krajisnik would include meetings, although

19 not as frequent as meetings with Mr. Karadzic? Is that a correct

20 understanding of your testimony?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

23 We'll have a break until five minutes past 6.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.

25 [The witness stands down]

1 --- On resuming at 6.12 p.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, you asked whether you could receive an

3 answer to your request. I think you get it within the next two or three

4 minutes, because it's not without hesitation that the Chamber dealt with

5 the matter.

6 First of all, and I'm addressing you and perhaps Mr. Krajisnik as

7 well, of course the Chamber is aware that conversations were held in order

8 to try to find a solution for some of the matters that were bothering

9 Mr. Krajisnik, and one of them was the constitution of the Defence team.

10 We have not been recently informed about any further progress,

11 although at the time we understood that quite some progress was made and

12 that the solution was almost there. Before the Chamber enters into any

13 such, I would say, exceptional situation where someone who is not either

14 registered as chosen counsel or assigned as counsel by the registry,

15 before we enter into that, we at least would like to know whether an

16 agreement is nearby or not, because otherwise it would not be a good idea

17 to start these kind of experiments. That's the first question.

18 So I'm addressing you and Mr. Krajisnik whether we could expect a

19 kind of solution soon as far as the registry is concerned.

20 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I -- I can't answer that, Your

21 Honour. The -- Mr. Krajisnik, I know is having discussions -- we met this

22 morning. I know he's got further discussions. I can't really answer

23 that, Your Honour. Of course progress has been made. Certainly as far as

24 my discussions with the registry are concerned, considerable progress has

25 been made, but they're all interrelated, Your Honour, so I can't say that.

1 But what I can say, Your Honour, perhaps I should have mentioned

2 that, that Mr. Krajisnik of course can speak for himself, although of

3 course it remains my position that it's primarily my job to speak for him.

4 Your Honours know that.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I know that. But at the same time when he's involved

6 in these type of discussions --

7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I was simply going to say that it has

8 been discussed. We've been up together to the UNDU. Mr. Krajisnik has

9 indicated that he is entirely happy for Mr. Josse to do this witness on

10 Friday. He can certainly confirm that himself, but I can report that to

11 Your Honour in relation to this witness.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I -- we never expect counsel to say

13 anything else, but if you'd like to add something to what has already been

14 said, then please do so but let's not spend too much time on it.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did have a meeting with the

16 representative of the registry. This meeting was successful. We're

17 supposed to continue tomorrow, and we -- I believe that we will deal with

18 all the issues that are still pending. One of the issues was Mr. Josse,

19 and what Mr. Stewart has just said is correct. I hope that I will see a

20 positive outcome and that's why I said that I would be glad if Mr. Josse

21 could examine the witness.

22 I would like to commend the representative of the registry, who

23 has been very flexible in seeking solutions, and that's why we have been

24 able to deal with a number of issues so fast.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.

1 Then finally, the Chamber is inclined, given these circumstances,

2 to allow Mr. Josse to act as counsel. He is qualified as a -- he is a

3 member of the bar of England, I think it's the bar of England and Wales,

4 if I'm well-informed. So therefore he can act. It's with the consent of

5 Mr. Krajisnik. The messages we received from the registry is that they do

6 not oppose, because usually if a counsel not assigned would act, of course

7 that might -- might not be in a normal situation where assigned counsel

8 are defending and not at the same time chosen counsel. So that seems not

9 to be a problem as far as the registry is concerned.

10 Then a final issue which is of importance for the Chamber is that

11 if it were only for two or three days we would like to have Mr. Josse on

12 the list as a member of the Defence team at this moment because this

13 creates obligations in terms of confidentiality. You are, as a starting

14 point, although Mr. Josse has been here, we also know that at an earlier

15 occasion when matters were less clear when we were in closed session,

16 which we prefer not to have anyone there. So even if it would be on a

17 temporary, provisional basis, we would like to have Mr. Josse on the list

18 of members of the Defence team, which means that he has access to whatever

19 confidential material and that he is also bound by --

20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, he already is

21 JUDGE ORIE: He already is.

22 MR. STEWART: He already is and has been for some considerable

23 time, Your Honour. I'm sorry, perhaps I should have made that clear.

24 There's absolutely no problem about that. And of course Mr. Josse's

25 membership of the Defence team is then of course bolstered up by his

1 obligations as a member of the English bar -- English and Welsh bar in

2 relation to such matters.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Both. It qualifies him to act before this Tribunal

4 and at the same time it adds to the professional duties he has to fulfil.

5 MR. STEWART: May I just add one other matter, Your Honour, and

6 Mr. Josse wants to add a matter, and it's a different one, through me; I

7 appreciate that. The -- which is that he won't be -- although he would be

8 more than capable of doing it, he won't be on his own, Your Honour. He'll

9 be accompanied -- it looks as if it's going to be Ms. Loukas who will

10 metaphorically hold his hand on Friday.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. And I took the whole of this

12 exercise --

13 MR. STEWART: Yes. And perhaps I mentioned earlier, Mr. Josse is

14 already on the Rule 45 list --

15 JUDGE ORIE: That's no problem. The messages we received from the

16 registry is that there are no concerns in this respect. I took it because

17 this is -- well, I will say taking some steps already in advance of

18 matters we expected to be formalised as soon as possible. I take it that

19 this is discussed with the whole of the Defence team and that there's no

20 disagreement on Mr. Josse next Friday, because here many members of the

21 Defence team are there but not all of them. And I take it that Ms. Loukas

22 is aware and --

23 MR. STEWART: Oh, Ms. Loukas, certainly. Ms. Loukas wouldn't have

24 been very delighted if the answer from the Trial Chamber had been

25 different, Your Honour. But that's another matter.

1 As far as the rest of the Defence team is concerned, Your Honour,

2 it isn't a democracy, and the members of the Defence team Your Honour has

3 mentioned have been consulted and are happy with the decision.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I just wanted to -- you see that the Chamber had some

5 hesitation and wants to proceed very cautiously in this matter.

6 MR. STEWART: We fully understand that and are very appreciative

7 of the response, of course.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Then we could ask Mr. Usher to escort the witness

9 into the courtroom, and, Mr. Stewart, you may continue your

10 cross-examination.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tupajic, Mr. Stewart will continue his

14 cross-examination.

15 MR. STEWART:

16 Q. Mr. Tupajic, you were also asked, and this is page 41 of the

17 transcript yesterday. You were asked: "What did you understand

18 Mr. Bjelica's relationship with Dr. Karadzic to be in 1991 and 1992?"

19 And you said: "Well, this conversation," and that was the one

20 about the petrol and so on, and we'll come back to that, "but this

21 conversation, too, confirms that they had full, direct contact and they

22 contacted each other on many issues."

23 Mr. Tupajic, you don't really know, do you, whether or not

24 Mr. Bjelica and Dr. Karadzic contacted each other on many issues?

25 A. You're not right, Mr. Stewart. I know that they had very frequent

1 contacts and that Mr. Bjelica was amongst the people who enjoyed a lot of

2 trust with Mr. Karadzic. And this was not the case only in 1991 and 1992;

3 this continued throughout subsequent years.

4 Q. Was there a particular history of their personal relationship

5 which enabled Mr. Bjelica to have particularly close contact and dealings

6 with Dr. Karadzic?

7 A. I don't know whether they had any relationship before the SDS was

8 established. But it is a well-known fact in Republika Srpska that there

9 is a relationship between Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Bjelica. This is not

10 something that I, myself, said; this is what all the prominent members of

11 the SDS are fully aware of.

12 Q. Mr. Bjelica and Dr. Karadzic's contact on these issues then, did

13 Mr. Bjelica discuss with you what those issues were?

14 A. We spoke and my impression was that only some of the conversations

15 with Mr. Karadzic were related to me and only those that concerned the

16 part of the job that I was supposed to do with my associates.

17 Q. And what specifically was your part of the job then?

18 A. I can tell you what the job of the president of the municipality.

19 There are a lot of things to do, especially in the times of war. It will

20 take some time, though, but if you insist, I don't mind telling you all

21 that.

22 Q. Well, in that case, with the Court's permission, I won't insist

23 then, Mr. Tupajic. I will ask you this: Please, sir, could you just give

24 a couple of examples of issues that you know, leave aside the petrol

25 thing, of issues that you know were discussed between Mr. Bjelica and

1 Dr. Karadzic in 1991 and 1992. Just name two issues.

2 A. When it comes to personnel and appointment of people in the

3 municipality, I believe that there are a lot of contacts about that, not

4 only during the war but also in subsequent years.

5 Q. Okay. So personnel is one. What's another?

6 A. There is a wide range of issues that were discussed. I'm trying

7 to remember --

8 Q. [Previous translation continues]... I beg your pardon. I didn't

9 mean to interrupt your train of thought. I just wanted one in answer to

10 my question, please.

11 A. I could tell that they talked about the behaviour of the local MUP

12 in Sokolac. These conversations always concerned the analysis of the

13 situation in Sokolac and measures that could possibly be taken with that

14 regard. That's why I've said that there was a wide range of issues

15 discussed.

16 Q. You didn't know anything about this conversation between

17 Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Bjelica about the petrol, did you?

18 A. It was only two days ago that I learned about this conversation,

19 when I first heard that intercept and read the transcript here.

20 Q. So you don't really know very much about what that's all about, do

21 you?

22 A. Well, I shall repeat. Mr. Bjelica enjoyed a lot of trust with

23 Mr. Karadzic, and I assume, which has been confirmed over the years, that

24 this has remained the case. If somebody attends the most important

25 Serbian religious holidays and celebrations, to which only the closest

1 associates and relatives are invited, then this shows you what was the

2 nature of a relationship between these two men.

3 Q. Mr. Tupajic, that answer is really, with respect, nowhere near an

4 answer to my question. I was putting it to you: You don't really know

5 very much about what that conversation about Jugopetrol is about. You

6 really don't know very much what that's all about, do you?

7 A. I didn't know anything about that conversation. However, when I

8 heard it, things became absolutely clear. I believe there were other

9 conversations about that same topic. I have mentioned that Mr. Bjelica

10 had been involved in the traffic and sale of oil for a number of years,

11 and that's why I believed that there were other conversations about that.

12 I don't know how many. And I'm sure that there were other conversations

13 between Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Bjelica that I don't know anything about.

14 Q. You -- Mr. Tupajic, are you saying that anything you know about

15 this Jugopetrol issue involves anything negative about Mr. Momcilo

16 Krajisnik?

17 A. No, I don't know any details. I would not comment upon that. I

18 have never been involved in any of that. However, I would like to

19 illustrate this by saying as follows, if you insist. I remember what

20 Mr. Bjelica told me after his first rest on the -- by the SFOR. He told

21 me things that absolutely shocked me. It was the first time then that I

22 learned that Mr. Radovan Karadzic had spent some time in Sokolac in 1998

23 and that Mr. Milovan Bjelica knew about that. He stayed in a building

24 which is not more than 200 metres away from my building. I, myself, never

25 knew anything about that. I'm sure that -- and there is a number of

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1 people who looked after him during his stay and who knew exactly what was

2 going on. I'm giving you this just an illustration --

3 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Tupajic --

4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that doesn't seem to be remotely

5 related to my question.

6 JUDGE ORIE: No, I do agree with you --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is related. Of course it is.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the question was whether there's anything you

9 know about this Jugopetrol that involves anything negative about

10 Mr. Krajisnik. When you say that Mr. Karadzic may have spent some time in

11 Sokolac, that's not really an answer to the question. So do you know in

12 this respect anything, any negative thing, about Mr. Krajisnik.

13 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, may I add just with respect to

14 that I specifically said Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik to avoid any possible

15 misunderstanding.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Krajisnik who is here in the courtroom.

17 Yes, please.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that I've answered the

19 question. I said that I don't know anything about that. In that

20 conversation, the name is not mentioned, either of Mr. Momcilo or Mirko

21 Krajisnik. I have never dealt with that issue.

22 I apologise to the Chamber if I have provided information that is

23 beyond the context. I was just going to give you an example of mistrust

24 that was shown to me. And for that reason, I didn't know -- I was not

25 aware of the contents and the gist of a number of conversations that took

1 place between Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Bjelica. And I apologise for having

2 taking up too much of your time with this answer.

3 JUDGE ORIE: No problem, Mr. Tupajic.

4 MR. STEWART:

5 Q. Mr. Tupajic --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone.

8 MR. STEWART:

9 Q. Mr. Tupajic, is it correct that you know more about contacts

10 between Mr. Bjelica and people in Pale than you do about contacts between

11 Mr. Simic and people in Pale.

12 A. Earlier in my testimony I said that Mr. Bjelica had more contacts

13 with the leadership in Pale. The late Marko Simic, as a member of the

14 Assembly probably had more contacts with Mr. Krajisnik, which is only

15 logical. Later on he became a member of staff of the National Assembly

16 and he had his tasks. And hence, my belief in my statement.

17 Q. Just -- you were asked -- page 43 of yesterday's transcript: "Who

18 were the candidates that oral information conveyed from the Republika

19 Srpska leaders to Sokolac," and you said: "Oral communications came

20 mainly through Mr. Bjelica and the late Mr. Marko Simic who was deputy to

21 the National Assembly."

22 Do you say that Mr. Marko Simic reported back to you on -- on

23 matters involving the Republika Srpska leadership?

24 A. Absolutely not. The late Simic did not have any duty to report to

25 me. We would meet from time to time and inform each other on matters that

1 were happening in the municipality and in the republic. There was no duty

2 involved in any of that.

3 Q. Did you, yourself, in 1991 and 1992 have any direct contact with

4 the Main Board of the SDS?

5 A. No contacts with the Main Board of the SDS.

6 Q. You -- you were asked -- this is page 51 of the transcript

7 yesterday. You had an answer -- line 18 of that page: "When the army of

8 Republika Srpska was established on the 12th of May, pursuant to this

9 decision of the Assembly in Banja Luka and when Mr. Ratko Mladic was

10 appointed head of the Main Staff, we were invited to this meeting, which

11 was an official meeting," and you gave evidence about that, "a protocol

12 meeting at which we met each other officially. We had very little time at

13 our disposal, but the essence of the meeting was as was precisely that for

14 us to meet."

15 And then Mr. Tieger asked you: "Were other military officials

16 there other than General Mladic?"

17 And you said: "I can't remember, but I believe there was some of

18 General Mladic's assistants there. He had just established his Main

19 Staff. I can't be sure but I believe that Mr. Tolimir and Mr. Gvero were

20 also there. I'm not sure. The establishing of the Main Staff was

21 underway and many of the officers joined the Main Staff only after this

22 meeting."

23 Mr. Tupajic, is it correct that you have no significant knowledge

24 yourself of the process of establishment of the Main Staff and who joined

25 the Main Staff when?

1 A. I'll tell you what I know. Maybe I know more than I should, given

2 the position that I held. The Main Staff was in the vicinity of Sokolac,

3 and many members of the Main Staff would drop by occasionally. And the

4 hospital of the Main Staff was also in Sokolac, and I would bump into them

5 from time to time. What I know is that on the 12th of May the decision

6 was issued to establish the Army of Republika Srpska. As for the details

7 of the establishment of the Main Staff, the appointment of officers and

8 its services, I don't know anything about that. Later on I was introduced

9 to the majority of the Main Staff members, that was in the course of 1992

10 after its establishment and during the war years. In other words, I met

11 with a majority of the members of the Main Staff on various occasions. I

12 didn't meet with all of them but with a majority I did meet.

13 Q. Did you ever, yourself, receive any direction or order of any sort

14 from the Main Staff?

15 A. Yes, I did receive an order, not only I but a few other municipal

16 presidents, to organise the stacking of hay. That was in 1992 and 1993 in

17 the general region of Suhareke and in the Vlasenic [phoen] area.

18 Q. Now, you said at page 31 of yesterday's transcript that you were

19 asked: "Did the Sokolac SDS receive orders and directives and guidelines

20 from the Main Board of the SDS in 1991 and early 1992?"

21 And you said: "Yes."

22 Do you say that you have personal knowledge of, in the first

23 place, written orders or directives or guidelines received from the Main

24 Board of the SDS?

25 A. This was a customary type of communication. Some documents

1 adopted at the Main Board and for which it was considered that the

2 Municipal Boards should be familiarised with were sent to the Municipal

3 Board, either for their attention or for their elaboration. This was the

4 practice then and it still exists; this is nothing new. I don't remember

5 any specific details. The president of the party had that task, and he

6 was in charge of the entire communication on behalf of the Municipal Board

7 with the Main Board. Him and his associates from the professional

8 services were involved in that, but this is nothing but a customary form

9 of communication, which is only logical.

10 Q. So are you saying that the pattern of communication between the

11 Main Board of the SDS and municipalities has been broadly the same

12 throughout 1991, 1992, and the period ever since?

13 A. I apologise. Your question is rather confusing. You said between

14 the Main Board of the SDS and the municipalities. Are you referring to

15 the Municipal Boards of the SDS or the municipalities as institutions in

16 themselves?

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Tupajic. You're quite right. I should rephrase

18 that question. Are you saying that the pattern of communication between

19 the Main Board of the SDS and the Municipal Boards of the SDS has been

20 broadly the same throughout 1991, 1992, and the period years ever since?

21 A. As a matter of fact, that was the case. I don't think that there

22 were any major differences in the way they communicated. There was no

23 reason for them to change their way of communication.

24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm looking at the clock.

25 JUDGE ORIE: In the morning we go to a quarter to, but in the

1 evening we go until 7.00.

2 MR. STEWART: Oh, so we do, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 MR. STEWART: Well, it remains that I was looking at the clock,

5 but then I'll carry on for another --

6 JUDGE ORIE: The cafeteria is not open anyhow.

7 MR. STEWART: Well, there are other temptations, Your Honour, but

8 I'll press on of course. Thank you for reminding me.

9 Q. The -- you were asked about -- this was at page 81 of yesterday's

10 transcript, Mr. Tupajic. Mr. Tieger said to you: "At any point was a war

11 commission," this is line 18, "formed in Sokolac?"

12 And you said: "I don't understand your question, what

13 commission?" And so on.

14 And then Mr. Tieger said: "At any point in 1992 was anyone

15 designated as a war commissioner sent to Sokolac?"

16 And your answer was: "Yes, the so-called war commission was

17 established. I don't remember when, and as far as I can remember war

18 commissioners were members of the National Assembly. The war commission

19 for Sokolac was Marko Simic." On the transcript it actually says the war

20 commission for Sokolac was Marko Simic. "There were three others of us in

21 the war commission. I believe that this was the way for them to get an

22 insight into developments in the municipalities."

23 Now, first of all, when you say "as far as I can remember war

24 commissioners were members of the National Assembly," could you just

25 explain that. Are you saying all war commissioners were -- I'll start

1 again.

2 When you say "war commissioners were members of the National

3 Assembly," you're not talking there about Sokolac war commissioners, are

4 you?

5 A. No, I'm not saying that all MPs were commissioners and that it was

6 an exclusive rule. But as far as I can recall, a certain number of MPs

7 were indeed appointed as war commissioners, which in the last analysis is

8 only logical since they came from the base, as it were, and they could be

9 used as a stronger link between the base and the republican authorities.

10 Q. Perhaps we can take it in steps. When you talk about the war

11 commission, you're talking about the body that effectively took over from

12 the Crisis Staff, are you?

13 A. Well, no. There seems to be a misunderstanding there. It was

14 appointed at the time when the Crisis Staffs were in operation. I know of

15 the situation in Sokolac whereby the Crisis Staff stopped working at some

16 point mid-July. And before that time, the war commission had been set up

17 and appointed. And basically, as far as I know, it did not do anything in

18 particular, except perhaps analysing the work of the Crisis Staff and

19 possibly informing the republican authorities and bodies.

20 By the end of July, the executive committee or the Executive Board

21 was set up and did continue to work.

22 Q. Let's take it in steps. Can you -- as best you can, when was a --

23 this was an SDS war commission. Correct?

24 A. Well, I don't know what the name for it was at the time, but it

25 was appointed for the municipality of Sokolac and all the members were

1 members of the SDS.

2 Q. And it was only Serbs?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. As best you can, when was the Sokolac war commission established?

5 A. We looked at that document in the past few days here. I don't

6 have it in front of me, so I can't tell you the exact date. I think at

7 some point in June but I'm not certain. The Prosecution have that

8 document.

9 Q. And you say there were four of you in the war commission, is that

10 correct, four members?

11 A. Yes. I remembered that when I saw the document.

12 Q. So that was you, Mr. Simic, and who were the other two?

13 A. There was a Mr. Podinic, if I remember correctly, and Mr. Radomir

14 Delic.

15 Q. So Mr. Bjelica was not a member. Is that right?

16 A. Yes. According to the document we looked at, no, he wasn't.

17 Q. And is it that not so much war commissioners were members of the

18 National Assembly, which is what the transcript -- which is what your

19 evidence was yesterday, but is it more accurate to say that deputies in

20 the National Assembly were normally members of war commissions set up in

21 their particular municipality?

22 A. I don't know about the situation in the other municipalities. I

23 know that our own MP from Sokolac, the late Mr. Simic, was appointed as

24 president of the commission. I don't know what the situation in other

25 municipalities was. I really don't.

1 Q. Yesterday when you said - this is page 81, line 24 - what did you

2 mean when you said: "As far as I can remember, war commissioners were

3 members of the National Assembly." That's the entire sentence: "And as

4 far as I can remember, war commissioners were members of the National

5 Assembly."

6 Please explain, what did you mean?

7 A. I meant for Sokolac and perhaps a couple of other cases that I

8 knew of where MPs were commissioners.

9 Q. So all you're saying, leave aside for the moment these other

10 couple of municipalities, all you're saying was that in Sokolac Mr. Simic,

11 who was a deputy on the National Assembly, was the president, in fact, of

12 the war commission?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So just to clarify when the answer to Mr. Tieger's question to you

15 was: "At any point in 1992 was anyone designated as a war commissioner

16 sent to Sokolac?"

17 And you said: "Yes."

18 There was no sense in which Mr. Simic was sent to Sokolac as a war

19 commissioner, was there?

20 A. Well, he was appointed by Mr. Karadzic, as far as I can remember,

21 and that's what it says in the document.

22 Q. He was from Sokolac, wasn't he?

23 A. Yes. I mean, who's arguing against that?

24 Q. Nobody had to send him because that's where he started from --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, the Chamber is convinced that this

1 extensive exploring the word "send" is in view of the evidence we have

2 already heard is not of great assistance to the Chamber.

3 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. The -- you were asked, and this is at page 79 of the -- of

5 yesterday's transcript: "What organs or bodies existed for the purpose of

6 gathering information and communicating it to the top leadership of

7 Republika Srpska?"

8 And you said -- your answer was: "At the local level, meaning at

9 the municipal level, there were state security departments which were

10 organised into regional centres of state security, chiefs for regional

11 security were responsible and reported to the chief of state security, who

12 answered for his work and the work of his service to the president of the

13 republic. The second line of information went from public security

14 station via security services sent to the minister of the interior. Who

15 he reported to, I don't know but I assume that he reported to the highest

16 state organs. The third line of information was the military line of

17 information starting with the lowest-level commands, via the brigade

18 commands to the corps commands, and further on to the Main Staff, and

19 therefrom, I suppose, a certain amount of information was forwarded to the

20 state leadership."

21 Mr. Tupajic, as far as those particular matters are concerned, do

22 you agree that you have no special personal knowledge of what is in fact a

23 description of just the structure of these organs and these bodies?

24 A. I don't think I've quite understood the question.

25 Q. Well, I'll put it another way then, preface it. Would you -- do

1 you agree, what you have described there is the structure of various

2 organs and various levels in Republika Srpska in 1992?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And let me put it this way: Do you agree that really anybody who

5 had any reasonably informed knowledge of the organisation of

6 Republika Srpska could say exactly what you've set out in your evidence

7 there? You have no special personal knowledge to add on these matters, do

8 you?

9 A. Mr. Stewart, please. I'm somebody who was the president of the

10 municipality, and as such I knew what institutions were set up and working

11 in the Republika Srpska and how they operated, at least at lower levels.

12 I'm not quite sure as to the top level, who was accountable to whom, who

13 was meant to report to whom, in what way, and in what shape or form. But

14 as to the existence of the security services centres and the police

15 stations and all that and that the security services centres were

16 accountable to the minister, it as something that is common knowledge to

17 anyone who knows anything about politics. And this is the same way the

18 police force is organised in the Republika Srpska even now, and up until a

19 short time the security services and the military were organised in

20 exactly the same way. I fail to understand what you're trying to say.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I'm looking at the clock. We're close

22 to 7.00. I would like to ask one or two questions not in the presence of

23 the witness.

24 MR. STEWART: Certainly, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Would this be a suitable time for you to --

1 MR. STEWART: Yes, of course, no problem, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tupajic, we're not ready yet, as you may have

3 noticed. We would like to see you back tomorrow in this same courtroom

4 morning at 9.00.

5 Mr. Usher, would you please escort Mr. Tupajic out of the

6 courtroom but not until I -- could he please put the headphones on --

7 Mr. Usher, no, no no, no.

8 Mr. Tupajic, I would like to instruct you not to speak with anyone

9 about the testimony you have given or you're still about to give tomorrow.

10 That's what I wanted to tell you before you leave this courtroom.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Don't worry, Your Honour. I'm fully

12 aware of the situation.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, you may escort the witness out of the

14 courtroom.

15 [The witness stands down]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, could you give us an impression on how

17 much time you would still need in cross-examination.

18 MR. STEWART: I was just discussing with my colleagues and we --

19 that rather elastic phrase "not much longer," Your Honour. Your Honour,

20 I'm confident that I will finish before the first break tomorrow.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 Mr. Krajisnik, how much time do you think you would need?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My answer, as usual, is I don't

24 know. I'll do my best to keep it as brief as possible.

25 I would just like to put a question to you if I may, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may do so.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I submitted some documents to both

3 the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution. Would it be possible for those

4 documents to be submitted to the witness as well in order to speed things

5 up, unless it's out of order.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Krajisnik, I have tried to look at them,

7 although they are not translated. But, for example, I see one 19th of

8 December document which has already been put to the witness, so there

9 would be no need to do it again. I also noticed that apart from what

10 seemed to be some -- some reports of the Assembly, the stenographic notes,

11 I also see there is also quite a lot of publications, publications -- of

12 course I haven't read them, but are not prohibited from presenting to a

13 witness. But at the same time, this is not a case that will be determined

14 on the basis of press reports but on what witnesses have to tell us. And

15 sometimes confrontation with a specific press publication may be

16 important, then it can be put to the witness. But I couldn't give you a

17 general answer to your question.

18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I raise a point?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 MR. STEWART: The -- unless Mr. Krajisnik tells me that there's

21 something that I've overlooked, and he does occasionally tell me that, he

22 says that these documents have been submitted to both the Trial Chamber

23 and the Prosecution, but not so far, as far as I'm aware, to

24 Mr. Krajisnik's counsel under the status quo.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Usually the Chamber does not interfere between

1 communications between counsel and accused, but --

2 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour, that isn't the point. I'm

3 reporting to the Trial Chamber the slightly and unusual circumstance that

4 these documents have been submitted to the Trial Chamber and the

5 Prosecution, but --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

7 MR. STEWART: Well, I qualified what he was saying unless it

8 hasn't --

9 JUDGE ORIE: You have overlooked something and it might be a

10 similar matter --

11 MR. STEWART: I'll put it in the passive, something has been

12 overlooked.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

14 MR. STEWART: On this particular occasion I normally take the flak

15 for everything, Your Honour, but here I speak in the passive.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I'll put them on the list together with the maps.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just explain, Your Honour.

18 There seems to be a mistake because I did give it to the Defence team.

19 They might not have seen it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik. When I said that I put this issue on

21 the list together with the maps, that was the occasion where you were

22 perfectly right that you had your own maps and there was no ground for

23 what at that moment was said. So this is added to that list. Yes.

24 I give you an answer to that.

25 Finally, one question, is there any agreement between accused and

1 counsel on how to split up the time for cross-examination? Because

2 tomorrow Mr. Thompson is scheduled as a 92 bis witness as far as I am

3 aware of.

4 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Your Honour. And if I could make one

5 observation in response to Mr. Krajisnik's comment that he doesn't know

6 how long he'll be but he intends to be brief, there do seem to be a great

7 number of documents in here.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 MR. TIEGER: I can appreciate that Mr. Krajisnik may desire to use

10 all or a large number of these documents, but he's in a position now to

11 make the same judicious judgements about the use of time that everyone

12 else here has to do.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I indicated before that I would appreciate if

14 counsel and the accused would reach an agreement on the time they would

15 use. I also remember at least some observations as to whether counsel

16 would give any time away. I don't want that conversation to be repeated.

17 The only thing that may be clear is that the Chamber allows some

18 additional questions to Mr. Krajisnik. The Chamber has also indicated

19 that this would not -- should not lead to more time spent on

20 cross-examination than granted. And we know there's no 60 per cent rule,

21 but there's 60 per cent guidance which we do not always follow, but we

22 would like to go back to that. And the -- I don't know whether there

23 would be any opportunity to see how you could do that, but if I look at

24 the time spent in cross-examination -- in examination-in-chief, if I

25 combine the information I've received about the time Mr. Stewart needs

1 tomorrow and that Mr. Krajisnik would be brief, but brief is not always as

2 brief as one would expect, then I'm afraid that we spent too much time on

3 cross-examination.

4 So you're invited to see whether you can reach any agreement. I

5 know that communication might not be very easy. If you'd think that by

6 waiting for another two minutes that would help so that you at least have

7 an opportunity, where you might not be able to see each other once you've

8 left this courtroom, I'll facilitate that. But as I also indicated, if

9 this doesn't lead to any agreement finally, the Chamber will decide how

10 much time goes for counsel and how much time goes for the accused --

11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I know Your Honour doesn't want me to

12 repeat the point I've already made, but it is impossible to separate these

13 points. I should say straight away, there's no difficulty of

14 communication between Mr. Krajisnik and me, provided we get physical

15 access, of course, which is subject to all sorts of constraints. But

16 there isn't a difficulty about that. Not surprising we don't always agree

17 about everything.

18 The -- Your Honour, the -- it really follows from what Your Honour

19 is inviting me to do. What I can do and what I do do with Mr. Krajisnik,

20 as far as I possibly can, is I indicate to Mr. Krajisnik as best I can how

21 long I expect I would take as his counsel with my cross-examination doing

22 my duty, having the conduct of this case as his counsel. That gives

23 Mr. Krajisnik information from which he can work.

24 But, Your Honour, I will, please, make it absolutely plain, I am

25 not going to trade off any time of my cross-examination with Mr. Krajisnik

1 under the direction of the Trial Chamber or not under the direction of the

2 Trial Chamber because I have the conduct of this case, Your Honour. If

3 the Trial Chamber chooses to allow Mr. Krajisnik, and it is your

4 prerogative that under the status quo we are under at the moment, and I

5 reserve all my rights and position in relation to that, Your Honour, but

6 we live with the status quo while all these negotiations are going on.

7 But if the Trial Chamber chooses to give Mr. Krajisnik time for

8 cross-examination, so far as my conduct of the case is concerned, Your

9 Honour, that really is nothing to do with me. I will not trade off my

10 conduct of the case and my time for cross-examination in the way that Your

11 Honour indicates. I will give the information and I will help

12 Mr. Krajisnik in that way. He can work from that. The Trial Chamber know

13 where we are on that, and we can proceed accordingly.

14 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will consider the matter.

15 We adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.08 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 30th day of

18 June, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.

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