1 Thursday, 10 November 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.

6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is IT-00-39-T,

8 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Mr. Josse, are you ready to continue the examination in chief of

11 Mr. Milincic?

12 MR. JOSSE: I am, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Madam Usher, would you please escort the

14 witness into the courtroom.

15 Perhaps it would be practical that the parties inform the usher

16 whether there are any procedural matters to be raised, so that we don't

17 have to wait.

18 Mr. Tieger, I don't know whether you heard me, but if the parties

19 would inform the usher whether there are any procedural matters to be

20 raised, because, if not, I would accept that the witness already enters

21 the courtroom. Yes? And good afternoon.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Milincic. If you put them on the

24 top of your head, it's better.

25 Mr. Milincic, I would like to remind you that you're still bound

1 by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.

2 Mr. Josse will now continue to examine you.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.

4 WITNESS: MILOS MILINCIC [Resumed]

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Examined by Mr. Josse: [Continued]

7 Q. Mr. Milincic, when we broke off yesterday I was asking you about

8 Mr. Krajisnik. My next question is: Could you assess the popularity of

9 Mr. Krajisnik in 1992 in the Republika Srpska?

10 A. [No interpretation]

11 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that we do not receive English translation

12 on channel 4.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear me now?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We now can hear you. And it does not appear on

15 the transcript either.

16 Mr. Milincic, would you please repeat your answer, because we

17 didn't receive translation. So you were asked about -- you were asked

18 about your assessment of the popularity of Mr. Krajisnik in 1992, in the

19 Republika Srpska.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is only my opinion, without any

21 official indicators to support it. However, at parties or rallies in the

22 street, I could hear them talking about the assembly sessions that were

23 going on. Those were the first multi-party assembly sessions. This was

24 something new for us. This was aired on TV. The way the power was

25 divided was that the assembly went to the SDS, the government went to the

1 Croats, the Presidency went to the Muslims. So tensions were expected to

2 appear. However, Mr. Krajisnik showed a lot of perseverance to deal with

3 all those novelties and this created a charisma attached to his

4 personality. This is my opinion.

5 MR. JOSSE:

6 Q. And did the Srbac municipality ever receive any orders from

7 Mr. Krajisnik?

8 A. I don't know what orders you are referring to. I don't know what

9 to say to that. I don't remember any order having come from the president

10 of the assembly to the president of the assembly of Srbac. This was just

11 not regulated by the law. There were laws, however. There were old laws

12 of the former Yugoslavia and the former Bosnia and Herzegovina that were

13 in place, and we used them. I can't tell you something -- anything about

14 any improvisations. I don't know of any such thing.

15 Q. I now want to move on to a different subject, please, and I want

16 to ask you whether you ever attended -- I'm going to start again, if I

17 may.

18 Does the name Mirzet Karabeg, from Sanski Most, mean anything to

19 you?

20 A. Yes. It does ring a bell, especially in connection with what I'm

21 here for. I believe that he hailed from Sanski Most, and he was a member

22 of the Executive Board. Maybe he was its president or just a board

23 member.

24 Q. He was the president at one point. That's right.

25 Did you ever attend a meeting of the Bosanska Krajina region in

1 March of 1991, the meeting taking place in Banja Luka?

2 A. Yes. In Banski Dvori. I believe that this was in December 1991,

3 but I can't be sure of the time.

4 Q. The meeting I'm asking you about was in March of 1991.

5 A. It is possible.

6 Q. And do you remember a meeting of that region which Mr. Karabeg

7 attended?

8 A. From time to time there were such meetings in Banja Luka. All the

9 presidents of the Municipal Assemblies would gather there. At one of such

10 meetings in Banski Dvori, before the agenda was adopted, a man got to his

11 feet. That's when I first noticed him. And in hindsight, I remember that

12 his debate differed from the debate of the others and that he left the

13 meeting at the very beginning, him and another man.

14 He had said before that that he had expected to hear something

15 else at the assembly meeting, and his feeling was that the agenda that was

16 about to be adopted differed from the agenda that was announced, that he

17 was at the session of the assembly by chance, that he didn't want to

18 attend the meeting, and he left the room.

19 Later on, I heard who they were, that one of them was from Sanski

20 Most and the other one from Prijedor. In other words, they did not stay

21 at the meeting. People wanted to keep them, wanted them to stay, told

22 them that things would be changed, that there were normally debates before

23 the agenda was adopted, and then things calmed down. In other words,

24 these two men left before the agenda was adopted and before the session

25 actually started, and therefore, he never participated in the official

1 part of the debate.

2 Q. Did you subsequently learn the name of the man from Sanski Most?

3 A. I asked who the man was and how come he had reacted in that way,

4 and those who stayed in the room started discussing the case and they were

5 sorry that the men did not stay. I only knew that they were from Sanski

6 Most and Prijedor, respectively. And later on, after I was invited as a

7 witness in this Court, I learnt what their names were, or what his name

8 was.

9 You asked me if I remember the event. Yes, I do remember the

10 event, but at that time, I didn't know the man's name. It was only later

11 on that I learned that the man's name was Karabeg and that he is from

12 Sanski Most, and I also learned that the other man was from Prijedor.

13 Q. How did you learn that the man's name was Karabeg from Sanski

14 Most?

15 A. Somebody told me then. In the meantime, I forgot. And as I was

16 preparing to testify, I asked what the man's name was, and I was told.

17 Believe me, in a fortnight, I will again not be able to recall this

18 person's name.

19 Q. At the meeting that you have just described, or indeed at any

20 other meeting of the Bosanska Krajina region, do you remember a judge of

21 the misdemeanour court of Srbac attending?

22 A. To be honest, when the Defence team of Mr. Krajisnik asked me if I

23 had attended that meeting, I said of course I was, and then they asked me

24 if I remember the words of a certain man and that he left the session. I

25 said yes, but I don't remember his name. And then I was astonished by a

1 story about that session, according to which there were discussions at the

2 session about the work of the Serbian media being hindered and that the

3 president of the court in Srbac proposed some taxes that would stop the

4 work of all the non-Serb media.

5 Obviously, as the only person who was there representing Srbac,

6 and bearing in mind the fact that nobody ever attended such meetings from

7 the court in Srbac, and if you know that the misdemeanours court president

8 was a woman and that she was only revoked from her position only two

9 months ago, which means that she had been the president of the court for

10 15 years before that. Her name is Biljana Lalovic and she is currently

11 employed at the municipality.

12 So if you're referring to the misdemeanours court president, it

13 would be Biljana Lalovic, and she never attended any of those meetings.

14 And if you are referring to the president of the municipal court, not the

15 misdemeanours court but the municipal court, at that time, that was

16 Ljubomir Sandic. Today he is a deputy in the Republican Assembly. At

17 that time he belonged to a different party, to the Party of Socialists.

18 Neither as a person, nor as a professional, would he have stated

19 something like that. None of the presidents of the courts in Srbac ever

20 attended the assembly session meetings. Srbac is a place where the

21 inter-ethnic tensions could not be felt. They were equal to zero, if I

22 may put it that way.

23 The inhabitants of that place were Serbs. I mentioned the share

24 of Muslims and Croats yesterday.

25 And thirdly, Srbac is very close to the border with Croatia, and

1 it did not have any possibility to stop the work of other media, either

2 technical or financial possibilities. We are in the position to watch

3 Croatian television because of the conflagration of the ground. It's flat

4 all the way to Zagreb. Maybe that statement was issued by somebody from

5 Srbac, but not at the assembly session. If you did a poll today in Srbac,

6 people would remember that and people would tell you that this cannot be

7 true, that this statement could not possibly be true, although it was

8 attached to the president of the court in Srbac. And let me repeat that

9 those sessions were never attended by anybody else but presidents of the

10 municipal assemblies.

11 Q. The last topic --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just ask you one question, Mr. Josse. The

13 question you just put to the witness, are they in any relation with any

14 early evidence presented? Because then I'd like --

15 MR. JOSSE: Oh, yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you -- I don't --

17 MR. JOSSE: I can give the page in the transcript, if needed.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you gave the date. Is it the Karabeg -- I

19 have the date, but if you look at the word "court," you'll find a lot of

20 courts, but mainly this Court.

21 MR. JOSSE: As usual, Mr. Tieger is better organised than me.

22 MR. TIEGER: Not at all. In this case, Your Honour, and it's a

23 point I wanted to raise. In fairness to Mr. Josse, there was a passing

24 exchange between the two of us about this matter, a matter that was not --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Put to that witness.

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1 MR. TIEGER: -- raised in 65 ter.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 MR. TIEGER: I understood that it was a matter the Defence was

4 considering and believed that I would be advised if evidence along these

5 lines was going to be led. I fully accept that was a misunderstanding.

6 However, it leaves me in an awkward and difficult position. I raise that

7 for a couple of reasons. Number 1, I think that it highlights the

8 importance of the detail of 65 ters and secondly, although I don't

9 anticipate at this point that I will seek to defer my cross-examination

10 for this reason, I do want to reserve this particular issue by noting it

11 at this point.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 MR. JOSSE: Could I just help, Your Honour? It's page -- because

14 I've got it --

15 JUDGE ORIE: The problem is that in my LiveNote system the pages

16 are by the day and not numbered through. But if you would have a specific

17 sequence of words, it will be no problem for me to find it. But

18 unfortunately, the word "court" is not very helpful, because you very

19 often address a court, which is a different court. The word "judge"

20 doesn't help that much, because there are three Judges here who are

21 addressed frequently.

22 MR. JOSSE: Misdemeanours court? That's what I used that

23 expression.

24 JUDGE ORIE: If you say the "misdemeanours" appears, then I'll be

25 able to find it, at least if I know how to write "misdemeanours" - yes,

1 please - without spelling mistakes. Please proceed.

2 MR. JOSSE: For what it's worth, Your Honour, I take on board what

3 my learned friend Mr. Tieger has just said.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And apart from that, could you give me the

5 date? Was it the 25th of May or was it -- or don't you know? I'll find

6 it.

7 MR. JOSSE: I'm afraid I've only got the transcript page.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I'll find it. No problem.

9 MR. JOSSE:

10 Q. The last topic that I want to ask you about, Mr. Milincic, relates

11 to the Main Board of the SDS. Did you attend meetings of the Main Board

12 in 1991?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How many meetings did you go to?

15 A. Seven or eight. There was normally one meeting a month, sometimes

16 every six weeks. I certainly didn't attend more than eight meetings in

17 1991.

18 Q. And what about 1992?

19 A. The work of the party was frozen at the time and we turned to the

20 problems prevailing in our respective municipalities.

21 Q. In 1991, the meetings you attended, did Mr. Krajisnik attend at

22 some or all of them, any of them?

23 A. At the SDS meeting at Holiday Inn on the 12th or the 14th July,

24 1991 - I said that yesterday - Mr. Krajisnik was either accepted as a

25 member of the party or became a member of the Main Board, either one or

1 the other, when he attended the meeting of the SDS party. There were a

2 few more meetings in the course of that year. He would not stay until the

3 end, or he would come late, because of his previous commitments. I don't

4 have a clear recollection of that. It's very difficult for me to be sure

5 of any of this. It was a long time ago, and I didn't find it that

6 significant at the time.

7 Q. Did you attend a meeting at the Holiday Inn in December?

8 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 MR. TIEGER: The previous point may have been -- the previous

11 issue may have been the subject of a misunderstanding, but it's clear to

12 me now, and I believe to the Court, what evidence Defence is seeking to

13 elicit now and it's frankly a bit astonishing to me that that appears

14 nowhere in the 65 ter, nor does, in general, the line of questioning that

15 the Defence has just been pursuing. And I think if -- we've been

16 expressing our concerns about this throughout. There -- I don't need to

17 belabour the point. I think that stands for itself. I'm not entirely

18 sure what remedy at this moment I would suggest, but this is inappropriate

19 and we need to address it, and it does leave me in an inappropriately

20 unprepared position.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse -- but perhaps before I give you an

22 opportunity. You said you do not know what remedy to suggest at this

23 moment. Which options did you have in mind, Mr. Tieger?

24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, clearly, one of the options would be --

25 here are some options that occur to me. We could lead the evidence and

1 defer the cross-examination on that point; we could lead the evidence and

2 defer the cross-examination in toto until a later point; the Court could

3 exclude evidence that was not properly noticed. Again, I'm not urging one

4 or another at this point. I'm simply identifying alternatives that come to

5 mind immediately. I don't want to urge upon the Court any measures

6 harsher or more Draconian than necessary, but must insist that the

7 function of the summaries be recognised and complied with.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 Mr. Josse, before you continue, would you please respond to

10 Mr. Tieger's concerns.

11 MR. JOSSE: I don't really, with respect, accept my learned

12 friend's criticism in this regard. Your Honour, the last matter, he has

13 an absolute, justified point about. There is no way he could possibly

14 know that I was going to ask this witness about Mr. Karabeg's evidence

15 unless he had some advance notice. But to take that point in relation to

16 what I'm about to ask the witness --

17 JUDGE ORIE: The last question, you mean in relation to the last

18 question about the meeting later that year?

19 MR. JOSSE: Precisely. And my learned friend is right. Of course

20 he knows where it's going. It's relevant, it's the central issue, or one

21 of the most central issues in this case.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Does it appear on the 65 ter?

23 MR. JOSSE: It says -- the witness --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Membership. Membership. Let's try to deal with it

25 in a way that -- yes. Well, we know that he's a member now, isn't it? He

1 testified about that.

2 MR. JOSSE: And the fact that he's a member is in the 65 ter. It's

3 the next point.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Do you consider 65 ter summaries sufficiently

5 detailed, if whatever happened during the membership of a certain body,

6 that everything that happened in that body would be covered by it?

7 MR. JOSSE: Well, no, but the particular event I'm about to ask

8 about, which is so central to this case --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 MR. JOSSE: -- I submit, does not need to be in each and every 65

11 ter. That's really the point I'm contending on behalf of the Defence.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is inclined to take the initiative

14 itself, if it's clear to everyone where we are going and where the Chamber

15 does agree that merely mentioning membership is not sufficient for a 65

16 ter, let's see what the witness may know about what everyone seems to

17 understand to be an important issue in this case. So we might first put a

18 few questions to the witness and then see whether you have any additional

19 questions, Mr. Josse.

20 Mr. Milincic, about meetings of the Main Board, do you remember

21 any other meetings you attended in 1991?

22 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

23 JUDGE ORIE: I do not receive translation at this moment.

24 Could the interpreters -- there seems to be a --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear us now?

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I can.

2 THE INTERPRETER: So the witness said: Those were only the

3 meetings of the Main Board.

4 JUDGE ORIE: When you say "those were the only meetings," that's

5 the July meeting. And what was the other meeting?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Josse asked whether I attended a

7 meeting in December, and I said yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: That answer does not appear on the transcript, so

9 therefore, I was -- I saw it in the question, but I didn't -- so you

10 attended a meeting in December. Could you tell us where that meeting took

11 place?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have said yes, although I'm not

13 sure, but I don't want to be argumentative. But as a member of the SDS

14 and the Presidency in Srbac, I tried to attend as many meetings as I

15 possibly could, although I can't remember very clearly. I nevertheless

16 say yes, they were at the Holiday Inn in Sarajevo.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Do you by any chance remember the date of that

18 meeting?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I really don't.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Was it at the beginning of December?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was in December, in

22 winter, because we have a long way to travel, and so we tend to have

23 problems with transport and all that.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you describe us who were present at that

25 meeting?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Members of the Main Board. I think

2 there were 45 members. The president of the party, Mr. Karadzic, I can't

3 say -- presumably, people from the government, but who exactly and how

4 many of them, since we at that time had a joint government with the

5 authorities at the BH level, I don't know who was there. I know that it

6 was chaired by Mr. Karadzic. That's certain. But other than that, I'm

7 not certain. I know I attended meetings, but as to everything else -- and

8 I know we did have a quorum, so that meant that all members, 45 or 40, or

9 at least 38, must be in there, because we did have a quorum. And we never

10 left the meeting without doing any work. The session would be held.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You earlier said that at the July meeting

12 Mr. Krajisnik became a member of the party or became a member of the Main

13 Board. That's the same what you said yesterday. So therefore, it's

14 unclear if you say the members of the Main Board were there, whether this

15 would include Mr. Krajisnik.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... whether you

18 remember his presence.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember, but I tend to

20 think that he was, rather than that he wasn't. But I'm not sure. It is

21 only logical that you want to hear the facts. I think he might have been,

22 but I had no reason to keep it in mind, to try and remember who was there.

23 I know I went, but other than that ...

24 JUDGE ORIE: Now, do you remember what happened during this

25 meeting? I mean, what were the discussions about?

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1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have to help me out, because I

2 just can't do it like this. I mean, at those meetings, different things

3 were being discussed, sowing, harvesting, media, politics, all kinds of

4 things. So it would be interesting to specify the particular topic that

5 you are interested in, because there were really wide-ranging topics.

6 People are asked about everything, maybe various rulings, whether we could

7 exert any influence upon that, and then granting loans, finding jobs for

8 people, business-related matters, if a company was in trouble, for

9 example.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Did you receive an agenda in advance of that meeting?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Presumably, but we got those agendas

12 only very rarely. I suppose we got it once we arrived at the meeting. But

13 I can't remember ever receiving a copy of the agenda in advance.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you say the agenda was distributed most

15 probably during that meeting. Were there any other documents distributed

16 during that meeting?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure. I can't remember, and

18 I wouldn't like to speculate.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Not specifically related to this meeting, but

22 usually, during those meetings, were documents distributed that came from

23 the central organs of the party? Was that a common thing to happen? So

24 I'm not talking specifically about the December meeting, but ...

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It happened sometimes. We did not

1 have a clearly defined set of rules, and we discussed a number of

2 different issues. So what we used to do was, either before or after these

3 sessions, to have a kind of brainstorming session at the municipality

4 level and discuss that with the president of the party. And, as I said,

5 since Srbac had least problems, either in terms of the economy or ethnic

6 problems, I was the least encouraged person to ask questions. There was

7 nothing I needed to do.

8 If there were any documents or any materials that we received, I

9 would leave it up to the party to deal with.

10 JUDGE ORIE: My question was whether you usually received such

11 kind of documents. Your answer was more what you did with these kind of

12 documents. But was that a common thing?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I did, yes. When I received

14 anything that was addressed to the municipality of Srbac, I would take it

15 and take it to Srbac with me. As to whether all the documents and all the

16 materials were identical, I do not know. But in as far as Srbac was

17 concerned, I was given those materials and I would forward them to the

18 party structure. The functioning of the local communities and boards, the

19 municipal board, and suchlike. That was this party politics, as it were.

20 But Srbac was in a rather special position from that point of view.

21 JUDGE ORIE: You specifically said that you did not know whether

22 the materials were identical. Could you explain to us what you had in

23 mind when you said this.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know what you're interested in,

25 this Variant A and B. I've heard of that. But I'm claiming upon my full

1 responsibility and I'm willing to suffer any consequences. But myself and

2 Srbac never took part in any of these variants and we never received any

3 documentations about Variants A, B, or C. I heard this when I talked to

4 the lawyers. They mentioned these Variants A, B, C, did you see that, did

5 you hear about this ethnic cleansing and all that? But the thing is, I

6 needed to bring Croats and Muslims into Srbac in order to calm things down

7 amongst the Serbs. And as to these Variants A and B, if they were about

8 ethnic cleansing or whatever, I never had anything to do with it. I'm

9 here before the Court and I know what you're after. I've heard of it now,

10 but I'm claiming upon my full responsibility that the president of the SDS

11 in Srbac and the member of the full board, that is to say, myself, had

12 never set eyes on this. Maybe this was being kept from me. I don't know

13 whether another municipality may have received these documents. I do not

14 know. But certainly I never saw anything like that in Srbac. That's my

15 answer.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Did you say for that reason that you do not know

17 whether it was identical, the material?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Are you aware of any document being distributed to

20 one municipality in a different form or in a different copy, compared to

21 the document given to another municipality? You understand what I mean?

22 Are you aware of -- that it ever happened that two different copies of a

23 document concerning the same matter were distributed to the various

24 representatives of the municipalities?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're making yourself very clear. I

1 do see what your direct question is. But I'm not in a position to confirm

2 that.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau has a question for you.

4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] A similar question, Witness.

5 During these meetings, can you tell us that the municipalities received a

6 sort of general instructions that were applicable to all municipalities?

7 Did that ever happen?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those were discussions, fears that

9 were being voiced, assumptions, along the lines: What if there is a war?

10 Are we going to be protected, and if so, in what way, and how should we

11 get supplies, how should we organise the defence? So it was some kind of

12 preliminary discussion. But since we were not threatened in Srbac -- I

13 didn't participate in any of that.

14 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] No, no. Sorry. Please answer my

15 question, Witness. During these types of meetings, did it ever happen

16 that you received from the Main Board, from the central body, did you ever

17 receive general circulars applicable to all municipalities. In other

18 words, instructions that all municipalities, each and every municipality,

19 were bound to apply?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember that, and I'm

21 really curious to check whether this exists anywhere in the SDS archives

22 in Srbac. Because I really do not remember that. And I believe that, had

23 I received something like that, it would have been debated at the

24 Municipal Board of the SDS in Srbac.

25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] But have you ever received that

1 type of documents addressed to all the municipalities?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that some statutory matters

3 and party questions, some documents I did bring back to Srbac and

4 circulate, but this sort of material, such a weighty document, if you see

5 what I mean, is not something that I ever saw. And I said that in case it

6 does exist, I'm really curious to see it. And had it existed at the time,

7 we would have certainly debated it. Or rather, had I even received it, it

8 would have had no impact whatsoever, because there was just no relevance,

9 from my point of view, and it would have been doomed to oblivion. But no,

10 we didn't.

11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I'm very sorry, but I'm not

12 satisfied with your answer. So we'll just go on very calmly. I would

13 like you to understand my question. I would like my question to be very

14 clear to you.

15 During these meetings, these types of meetings, did the Main

16 Board, the main body, did they distribute or circulate instructions to all

17 representatives of all municipalities for these instructions to be

18 implemented? I'm not talking about Variant A or B. I'm talking in

19 general. I'm talking about any type of subject. Did the Main Board, and

20 was the Main Board in a position to circulate instructions that were to be

21 implemented by each and every one of the municipalities?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm really sorry, but I cannot

23 confirm that. No matter what the content, whatever I did receive, I

24 forwarded to my own Municipal Board and the administration.

25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.

2 MR. JOSSE: That ends my examination, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It looks as if it ends our examination, but ...

4 No, I do understand. The subject has been covered.

5 Mr. Tieger, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

6 MR. TIEGER: Yes, I am, Your Honour. If the Court will give me

7 one minute to organise my materials.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 Mr. Tieger, I hardly dare to say whether you're organised, but you

10 are generally. But are you sufficiently organised to start?

11 MR. TIEGER: I think, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Tieger:

14 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Milincic. The other day you were asked by

15 Judge Hanoteau about what you heard concerning what was happening in the

16 surrounding, in the neighbouring municipalities, what sort of tension or

17 violence, what you heard about what was happening. And you explained

18 briefly to the Judge that you heard all manner of stories concerning other

19 municipalities, although, you said: "In the midst of all this evil, I

20 believe that Srbac managed to keep the evil at a very minor scale."

21 I'd like to pursue that a bit, and I'd like more detail, please,

22 on what you heard, what you learned about what was happening in the

23 municipalities in the Krajina, and, specifically, what was happening to

24 Muslims and Croats in the surrounding municipalities, in the Krajina

25 municipalities, in the spring and summer of 1992.

1 A. I'm afraid I won't have much to say here. I told you that my

2 primary task was Srbac, and as for the rumours, I heard strange and

3 fantastic rumours about myself. At my expense, and as a person who has

4 studied literature and psychologist, I know what the function of rumours

5 is. And I remember a very clever German who said --

6 Q. Mr. Milincic, please. I'm not asking about your educational

7 background. I didn't ask you what you heard about yourself. I asked you

8 what you were hearing about what was happening to the Muslims and Croats

9 in the Krajina municipalities in the spring and summer of 1992.

10 A. I heard similar stories about the Serbs, Muslims, and Croats

11 alike, about the conflict that had already started or is at the doorstep,

12 in different municipalities, in different regions, starting with

13 provocations, attacks on families, electricity outages, a pig that had

14 been slaughtered and thrown in front of somebody's house, and that person

15 was a Muslim. Those were stories and rumours. Those were threats. Phone

16 harassment while telephone lines were still working. This was the

17 psychology of fear, the fear that had already started spreading around us.

18 Q. Well, let's try to be clear on this. So do you want the Judges to

19 understand that in 1992, all you knew about what was happening to Muslims

20 and Croats in the Krajina municipalities was that there were some

21 electricity outages, a pig had been slaughtered and thrown in front of

22 someone's house, attacks on families, some provocations? That's your

23 answer to the question? That's what you want the Judges to believe you

24 understood occurred in 1992 to the Muslims and Croats of the Krajina?

25 A. That, or some other detail for which I was neither responsible or

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1 had the power to deal with it.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milincic, no one asked you to tell us on matters

3 you were responsible for. The question simply was: What did you learn at

4 that time from others as to what happened in the Krajina to Croats and

5 Muslims.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have to know that those things

7 were not in the open; they were not public; that if some things had been

8 happening, as you imply they were, this was not announced, this was not

9 made public, and it was not made known in Srbac. I could listen to the

10 media, which was already biased, and I could listen to the stories, but I

11 was not in the centre of all these developments. Some information reached

12 me with a delay of six months, about some crime, killing, violence, people

13 being fired from work, but it happened on all the three sides. It

14 depended on the municipality. It is only normal that I knew more about

15 the Serbs and what was happening to them. But I also could not avoid

16 hearing what was happening to the Muslims and the Croats, and especially

17 bearing in mind the fact that later on I established contacts with some

18 Croats, for example, Bishop Komarica, who was very communicative, very

19 courageous, very energetic when it came to the status of Croats in the

20 Krajina. He wanted to have that issue resolved in the safest possible

21 manner.

22 So I really can't provide you with a lot of information in this

23 respect.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milincic, you're not invited to provide a lot of

25 information. If you say, "I could not avoid hearing what was happening to

1 the Muslims and the Croats," Mr. Tieger just wants to know what you heard

2 about them. Whether you were responsible is not important, whether it was

3 official knowledge is not important, whether you know a lot or less or

4 more. Just tell Mr. Tieger what you heard about what happened. That's

5 the question, quite simple. And you spent now approximately 20, 25, 30

6 lines by not giving an answer to the question. Please tell him what you

7 heard.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just told you. If an area was

9 ethnically mixed, then Serbs and Muslims would confront each other, but it

10 depended on the area. There were places where it was the Muslims who were

11 victims; in the others, it was the Serbs who were victims. Please, do not

12 insist on that, because I cannot give you a direct answer. I cannot say

13 that things were either black or white, because I'm just not in a position

14 to do that, because I don't know. You have not specified too clearly.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milincic, again, if you're asked what you heard

16 about what happened to the Muslims and the Croats, someone might ask you

17 after that, "And what did you hear about the Serbs?" You're not invited

18 to strike a balance and to say that it was more that happened to the

19 ones -- I'll ask you at a later stage to tell me what you heard about the

20 Serbs. But please answer now Mr. Tieger's question.

21 You say there were places where it was that the Muslims who were

22 victims. Victims of what, did you hear they were?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Victims of violence. Please, don't

24 ask me to explain what violence is. When somebody is beaten or when one

25 is chased out of their house. I expect from you to start asking me about

1 the year 1995. Then I will be in a position to provide you with facts

2 that will also provide an answer to your question. When we start talking

3 about the fall of AR Krajina and --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milincic, I'm going to stop you. You don't have

5 to tell Mr. Tieger what he should ask you. Let's be quite clear. You

6 heard about violence. You said "don't ask me." Did you hear about people

7 being killed?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard comments. I listened to

9 stories. But nothing was official.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking whether -- I said before, it doesn't

11 matter whether it's official or not. Did you hear about persons being

12 killed, Croats or Muslims?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I can't give you an answer as

14 directly as you would want me to. I cannot establish a link between a

15 place and a person or --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milincic --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- or maybe Gradiska, Banja Luka.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milincic, again, the only thing I'm asking you,

19 whether you heard that Muslims and Croats were killed. I'm not asking

20 whether you knew whether they told you where and when and how many; might

21 the following questions.

22 Did you hear about Muslims and Croats --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard. I heard. I heard. I

24 heard. But I'm trying to be specific and tell you about a place. But I

25 can't. I heard stories. I heard rumours.

1 JUDGE ORIE: No one asks you at this moment to tell us about

2 places. Did you hear about members of the civilian population being

3 rounded up and detained?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that people were

5 ill-treated. I don't know any of the details. I don't know whether they

6 were detained, whether they were sent to work or whether they were killed.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

8 May I instruct you, Mr. Milincic, just to answer the questions. I

9 do understand that you want to give a full, balanced picture of what you

10 know. Please be aware that this Chamber hears a lot of evidence and that

11 if there are important matters you would like to add to that what has been

12 asked to you, you always could address me at a later stage and say, "I'd

13 like to add something," and then we'll give you an opportunity to do so.

14 But start by answering the questions.

15 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

16 MR. TIEGER:

17 Q. Mr. Milincic, did I hear a suggestion from you that part of the

18 reason you were unable to answer the questions was because you were simply

19 isolated in Prnjavor and only concerned about Prnjavor?

20 MR. JOSSE: Srbac.

21 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me. Srbac.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Srbac.

23 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.

24 A. In hindsight, it's very difficult for me to say that I -- Srbac,

25 Srbac, that was.

1 Q. Yes, of course.

2 A. I was interested in Srbac only.

3 Q. And I wanted to know if I understood you correctly to be saying

4 that you didn't know -- you couldn't answer my earlier questions

5 completely because you were just focussed on and isolated in Srbac.

6 A. Can I please provide you with a comment here at this stage?

7 Q. No, I'm actually not interested in the comment. Not before I get

8 an answer to my question: Is that what you were trying to say?

9 A. Yes. I said that I was interested in Srbac. That was my

10 priority. And we started jealously keeping from each other our problems

11 and the ways we tried to deal with our problems. And when I said "we,"

12 I'm referring to the various municipalities. I was afraid that, given

13 that I didn't have any problems, any inter-ethnic problems or violence,

14 that somebody would want to cause them, and unfortunately it did happen on

15 three occasions. There were attempts to drag Srbac into a war area.

16 That's why we kept our problems hidden from each other. You may not be

17 convinced, but that was the situation.

18 Q. You did interact with representatives, Serb representatives, of

19 other municipalities in 1992, didn't you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And, in fact, although you didn't mention it during the course of

22 your examination-in-chief, you were involved in and a member of the

23 Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina?

24 A. Yes, for the duration of it, a few months or so.

25 Q. And when the Crisis Staff of the autonomous region of the Krajina

1 was formed, the presidents of municipalities were also members and you

2 attended some of those meetings?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. So you had ample opportunity to learn from the leadership of the

5 region and the leaders of other municipalities what was happening to

6 people, and specifically what was happening to Muslims and Croats

7 throughout the Krajina in 1992?

8 A. Do you think that such a meeting is a forum where people would

9 openly say what was going on? I did not have such information. I was not

10 provided with such information at the Crisis Staff of the AR Krajina.

11 Q. Do I think that at such a meeting people would openly discuss what

12 was going on? Let's look at a couple of those meetings, then. First of

13 all, I noticed yesterday that on the list of SDS candidates for Srbac, you

14 were number 2, I believe, and Vojo Kupresanin was number 4; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you know Vojo Kupresanin right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And he became president of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region

19 of Krajina?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was his position?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you had the Court -- you had the opportunity periodically

24 during the course of 1992 and 1993 to interact with Mr. Kupresanin, didn't

25 you?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Well, let me just turn quickly, then, to a couple of

3 Mr. Kupresanin's comments at some of these meetings. First of all, if we

4 could look to some comments at the 24th Session of the Bosnian Serb

5 Assembly, held in January of 1993, and I think that's tab 3.

6 Mr. Kupresanin's comments begin in the English version at page 64,

7 and in the B/C/S at page 18, which is 02149922. So you'll see two things

8 there, Mr. Milincic, to identify the page at which Mr. Kupresanin's

9 comments appear, first page 18 is listed -- that's because the -- this is

10 broken down into two parts, but maybe easier for you, the heading

11 02149922. I see you reading, so it appears that you found it; is that

12 right?

13 And let me direct your attention in particular to his remarks

14 found at page 19 in the B/C/S, the third paragraph. And at the bottom of

15 page 65 of the English. Mr. Kupresanin said, after a longer

16 discussion: "We say that the war was not necessary in Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina. The war in Bosnia and Herzegovina was necessary. Right now,

18 if we were to count the population right now, there would be," either

19 "over" or "about," depending on whether it's "preko" or "eko"

20 [phoen], "there would be over a million Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21 Bosnia and Herzegovina would be predominantly a Serbian republic. Is war

22 necessary in Serbia? It's a horrible thing to say that the war would be

23 necessary in Serbia. If Serbia does not go into the war now, then in

24 three to five years, the Albanians and Muslims will entirely legally

25 overtake the power in Belgrade, along with the Serb opposition. This war

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1 was necessary for the Serb people."

2 Mr. Milincic, isn't Mr. Kupresanin in that body, before all those

3 delegates, acknowledging the reduction of the Muslim population in Bosnia

4 and Herzegovina, a reduction that took place through massive forcible

5 expulsions? Isn't that what that's a reference to?

6 A. Yes. Those are facts.

7 Q. And this is not the first time you've seen this, by the way,

8 because you were present at that session, isn't that right? If you just

9 turn a few pages along, perhaps your memory will be refreshed about your

10 presence.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I just want to turn to -- okay. You were present; correct?

13 A. Yes. Yes. But I'm trying to see what it was that I said.

14 Q. That's okay. We'll turn back to that and I'll give you an

15 opportunity to look at it, but I want to continue looking at

16 Mr. Kupresanin's remarks, if we can, please. So in that connection, I'd

17 like you to turn your attention to the 17th Session of the Bosnian Serb

18 Assembly, held in July of 1992.

19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, that's an exhibit we've referred to

20 repeatedly, so perhaps the best thing I can do at this point, since I

21 don't think we have the extracts here for you, is simply to slowly repeat

22 what was said there. It's been addressed in Court before, most recently

23 with a witness I think -- well, I'm not going to particularly identify it,

24 but I think if I use the expedient of just identifying the portion, I

25 don't expect that the Defence will have any difficulties with that.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.

2 MR. JOSSE: Let's see how it goes, please, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. So you may proceed then.

4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Milincic, if necessary, I can produce some extracts of this

6 session for you, but I think you'll be able to understand the gist of what

7 is said via the translation.

8 Now, the July -- the 17th Session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly, as

9 you can tell from the date in July of 1992, occurred at the height of the

10 summer and after some period of time from the onset of the conflict.

11 Mr. Kupresanin was present at that session, and, immediately

12 before he spoke, Mr. Nedic spoke. And he said: "I am against solving the

13 situation in Bosnia in haste. We must admit that the Muslims have been

14 planted to us as a people whose executioners we are to be. I do not want

15 the Serb people to be executioners, but I am also against us giving up our

16 state, our land, and our territory."

17 Mr. Kupresanin was also there, as I mentioned the fact he was the

18 next speaker, and then subsequently Dr. Karadzic spoke. And after

19 describing the -- his view of the Oriental mentality stemming from Islam,

20 after noting the concern that the Serbs could not control the Muslim birth

21 rate "since in five to six years, Muslims would make 51 per cent of the

22 population of inner Bosnia," he went on to say: "There is truth in what

23 Mr. Kupresanin has said," although, as I indicated, I think that was

24 Mr. Nedic, "Although nobody in Europe will say it openly," he

25 continued, "that this conflict was roused in order to eliminate the

1 Muslims."

2 And again, Mr. Milincic, at this session, at this meeting of

3 Bosnian Serb leaders, republic, regional, municipal, wasn't this again an

4 acknowledgment of what was happening to Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina

5 in May, June, and July of 1992?

6 A. As I am reading this, and as I'm listening to you, memories come

7 back. But in Srbac, we ignored this. We simply deleted this. This may

8 be the fact, but now, if you're asking me to remember what was said 12

9 years ago, it is impossible. And I adhere to what I said before, that all

10 the things that followed the inflammatory speeches and the concrete things

11 that were happening in the life, I was standing firmly on the ground with

12 my two feet and I made sure that life was normal in Srbac.

13 Later on, the assembly was -- stopped working and everybody had to

14 look after themselves.

15 Q. Well, we'll turn after the break to what was happening in Srbac.

16 But isn't it more fair to say, in retrospect, Mr. Milincic, that rather

17 than standing firmly with your feet on the ground, that you were standing

18 in Srbac, at best, with your eyes closed and your ears closed and ignoring

19 everything that was happening to the Muslims and Croats in the Krajina?

20 A. What else could we do? In Srbac, I mean.

21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm moving to another topic, I believe,

22 and --

23 JUDGE ORIE: It's close to the time for a break. I think we would

24 then have a break until 10 minutes past 4.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

1 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

3 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. Milincic, yesterday you discussed the killing of

5 Mr. Halid Hadziselimovic. That was -- and you brought with you documents

6 that you had sought out in Srbac. Now, that was one of the matters, if I

7 understood you correctly, that you wanted to bring to the attention of the

8 Court to dispel any misimpressions it might have about what happened in

9 Srbac, to show what happened in Srbac; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And what you wanted to show the Court was that in that instance in

12 particular, a prominent and well-regarded Muslim had been murdered and the

13 Serbian authorities had responded by prosecuting and imprisoning the

14 perpetrator for that; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you brought with you some documents to show that. Now, I

17 noted with respect to some of the municipality documents, for example,

18 that they weren't necessarily sequential, that you only brought, for

19 example, some of the documents from the Srbac Official Gazette and some of

20 the decisions that were made by the Municipal Assembly or Crisis Staff;

21 isn't that right?

22 A. Yes. I have brought some. I haven't brought quite a lot of

23 things.

24 Q. And with respect to the documents you brought with you concerning

25 the murder of Mr. Hadziselimovic, the Court in particular asked you how it

1 could know which murder those documents referred to, because it didn't

2 seem clear on its face, and you assured the Court that it referred to the

3 murder of Mr. Hadziselimovic because you knew how important it was to be

4 accurate here and bring accurate information to the Court; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Well, in fact, Mr. Milincic, we have found additional documents

7 related to these particular documents, and I'd like to go through those

8 with you now and with the Court.

9 MR. TIEGER: And Your Honour, I'd like to turn to tab 15, which is

10 a Banja Luka military court judgement in the case of Ljubomir Stankovic.

11 And if we could, in addition to these documents, if the witness could also

12 have tab 12 of the documents he brought with him and that were presented

13 to the Court yesterday. And I trust that the Court also has those on

14 hand, because I'll be referring to those.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the translated tab 12 documents? I received

16 in English some translations. I do not know whether this is --

17 MR. TIEGER: No. I think those are entirely unrelated,

18 Your Honour, if I understand it correctly. Those were translations

19 related to another witness that the Defence --

20 JUDGE ORIE: No. I think, as a matter of fact, I received

21 something. I haven't got tab 12 with me handwritten "44" on it.

22 MR. TIEGER: Forgive me. I should have referred to it by the

23 specific exhibit number, which I understand is 100.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No, no, now I've seen it, but ... I have a

25 document in front of me, at least translation, handwritten 56, it says at

1 the top. Yes.

2 Mr. Registrar, we got from you ...

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 JUDGE ORIE: That comes from the Prosecution. First let's deal

5 with it and see what happens.

6 MR. TIEGER: Yes. Now I understand, Your Honour. I apologise for

7 that. These are additional, related documents that may come up during the

8 course of this examination, but I think for the time being they need not

9 be given a separate exhibit.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 MR. TIEGER: And if I may ask: Did Prosecution tab 15 -- was that

12 given an exhibit number?

13 JUDGE ORIE: No, not yet. Mr. Registrar.

14 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P987, Your Honours, and the English

15 translation, 987.1.

16 MR. TIEGER:

17 Q. Now, because we're looking at two different documents, let's begin

18 by moving through them fairly slowly and identifying them. Looking at the

19 documents you brought with you yesterday, Defence Exhibit 100, you

20 indicated that that was a judgement against Ljubomir Stankovic, and the --

21 as indicated on the document, or at one page of the document, it was a

22 judgement dated April 20th, 1995, and the judgement number was 23/92.

23 That's correct, isn't it? I'm reading from both the document and

24 cross-referencing to your testimony of yesterday.

25 A. Yes. Yes. Based on this, what I can see here, I can also tell

1 what the subject of this judgement was. I received this from the police

2 station in Srbac when I set off for The Hague, because I believe that this

3 judgement referred to the killing of Halid Hadziselimovic. But here I see

4 another murder appearing.

5 Q. Let's move through that slowly, if we can. So first of all, I

6 think we can agree, then, that Prosecution 987, the document which is a

7 Banja Luka lower military court -- military prosecutor's office document,

8 refers to the same matter. It's a judgement of 20 April 1995, and the

9 number, again, is identical, 1K 23/92. So the documents you brought, you

10 will agree, Mr. Milincic, refer to this judgement; correct?

11 A. Yes. Yes.

12 Q. Now, it is correct, as you indicated yesterday, that this is a

13 judgement; both exhibits reflect a judgement against Mr. Stankovic. But

14 the story of Mr. Stankovic's crimes and subsequent prosecution is

15 considerably different than the one you described yesterday. So if we

16 could turn first to page 3 of the English, which should be page 2 of the

17 B/C/S in front of you. Excuse me. It actually begins at the bottom if

18 page 1, I think. It indicates the following, that at about 6.30 in the

19 evening on August 7th, 1992, Mr. Stankovic, after a brief argument with

20 Hasima Huskic, a 60-year-old woman, as the judgement later indicates, shot

21 her at close range with his light machine-gun, with the intention of

22 killing her, and she died. 15 minutes later, moving on further down the

23 street, he fired his weapon at Hamza Bojadzic, who was sitting in front of

24 his house, and in doing so, inflicted serious injuries to Mr. Bojadzic.

25 15 minutes after that, he entered the yard of Kasib Alagic and

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1 house Reuf Alagic with the same weapon and killed him. And then, on the

2 same day, in the same yard, he fired the same weapon at Mr. Alagic's

3 mother and seriously injured her.

4 Now, that all occurred, Mr. Milincic, in the municipality of

5 Srbac. You must remember that incident, four people gunned down, two of

6 whom died. Surely you were aware of that and when it happened; right?

7 A. I remember that, and this person was somewhat problematic, that he

8 was a member of the army. The police arrested him. He was convicted. But

9 I was convinced that this trial was also for the murder of Halid

10 Hadziselimovic. I just did not have all the information about the event

11 and the outcome of this event. The police and the army had taken the

12 matter in their hands. These are the facts, and I'm not denying them.

13 I'm not saying that this is not how things happened.

14 Q. Let's take it one step at a time. First of all, this was -- was

15 this a significant enough event in Srbac for it to come to your attention,

16 or was the shooting of four Muslims and the death of two not sufficiently

17 significant in the municipality of 20.000 people to be brought to the

18 attention of the president of the municipality?

19 A. A significant event that was given to the police and the army to

20 deal with. The president of the municipality is a civilian. A husband

21 and a wife were killed in the same municipality and they were Serbs.

22 Q. My only question, Mr. Milincic, is whether or not you knew about

23 this at the time it happened.

24 A. This did happen. I was informed, and I asked the enforcement

25 agencies to do their best to prevent this person from doing even more

1 harm.

2 Q. So you were actually involved with it and you specifically,

3 according to you, asked that Mr. -- something be done about Mr. Stankovic;

4 is that right?

5 A. I asked. I did not order. I could not issue any orders. I asked

6 the people in the police and the army to deal with such matters as quickly

7 as possible, to put these people on trial. I asked the police unit to

8 deal with that. What could we do? He was on leave from the army. He

9 brought his weapons and he caused problems. These people who were on

10 leave, with weapons, this is what they did.

11 Q. You know, for the moment, Mr. Milincic, I'm trying to focus on

12 what you knew and when you knew it.

13 Well, on page 7 of this judgement, which would be, I believe, page

14 4 of the B/C/S, it turns out that Mr. Stankovic tried to raise a number of

15 defences to his -- for -- and explanations for his killing of these two

16 people and shooting of the others. And one of those defences,

17 Mr. Milincic, as you can see, was that he was -- that his mind was still

18 blurred by an earlier incident before this war, when a certain Halid

19 Hadziselimovic attempted to kill him. But nothing happened as a result of

20 that incident. It actually says no criminal proceedings were brought

21 against Mr. Hadziselimovic because of his subsequent death.

22 Mr. Milincic, Mr. Hadziselimovic was killed by Mr. Stankovic

23 before this incident; isn't that right, in May of 1992?

24 A. Don't ask me to say anything about that. I am not Stankovic's

25 lawyer. I'm not a judge. I don't know how things went. Neither the

1 military court, nor any court, is obliged to inform the president of the

2 municipality of how things went.

3 JUDGE ORIE: You're giving speeches. You're telling Mr. Tieger

4 what he should not ask you. You're telling us what the or what are not

5 the obligations of a military court. The question was simply whether it's

6 right or not that Mr. Hadziselimovic was killed before that incident by

7 Mr. Stankovic in May 1992. Either you know any of these facts, such as

8 when he was killed, whether he was killed by Mr. Stankovic, and whether it

9 was -- or you don't know. If you know, tell Mr. Tieger. If you don't

10 know, tell him that you don't know.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know the sequence of

12 these events. I don't know what preceded what and what followed what.

13 I'm a bit nervous and now I feel guilty for something that was -- I was

14 powerless about, that was beyond my authority. All of a sudden it seems I

15 am guilty of a murder of somebody who was killed somewhere in a village, I

16 don't know where. An armed person came and committed a crime, and I was

17 the president of that municipality.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milincic, again, no one accuses you of being

19 responsible for that killing. If you feel guilty, the only thing on which

20 you might feel guilty, with some reason, is that you bring documents; if

21 you would have read them, you would have known that they do not -- or at

22 least that they do not present, on face value, what you said they

23 presented. And now it turns out that you used them to support matters of

24 which it now turns out that you had no sufficient knowledge to use them as

25 support for that.

1 So if you -- if there's any reason to feel guilty, is that you're

2 playing the role of a messenger rather than the role of a witness who

3 should tell what he knows for sure. If he has any doubt, he should say

4 so.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

6 MR. TIEGER:

7 Q. So if I understood your answer correctly, Mr. Milincic, you knew

8 that Mr. Stankovic killed Mr. Hadziselimovic, you knew that Mr. Stankovic

9 killed Mr. Zukanovic - or Ms. Zukanovic, excuse me - Mr. Bojadzic, Mr.

10 Alagic, and wounded Ms. -- Mr. Alagic, excuse me - wounded two people,

11 killed two people, in 1992. So you knew about those incidents, were

12 informed about them, indeed, according to you, made efforts to ensure that

13 Mr. Stankovic was prosecuted for it, but you cannot now recall the

14 sequence. Do I understand that correctly?

15 A. Correct, yes. Yes, that's correct. Your interpretation is quite

16 correct.

17 Q. Now, it must have come as quite a shock to you when -- let me ask

18 you this question: Do you accept my representation, based upon the Banja

19 Luka military court record of October 21st, 1993, page 3, that the

20 incident involving Mr. Hadziselimovic and Mr. Stankovic occurred in late

21 May 1992? I'm looking at a different document. You're welcome to see it.

22 But I'm just asking for purposes of this examination whether you'll accept

23 my representation that that was the date indicated, late May 1992.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And as you sit here now, that's consistent with your recollection

1 of approximately when Mr. Hadziselimovic was murdered?

2 A. I told you what information I had yesterday. Yesterday I told you

3 what I know about Mr. Hadziselimovic.

4 Q. What I'm wondering, Mr. Milincic, is this: Is how it slipped your

5 memory that a few months after killing perhaps the most prominent and,

6 according to you, one of the well-liked members of the Muslim community in

7 Srbac, Mr. Stankovic could then go on a killing and shooting spree which

8 was brought to your attention, and you don't recall that, didn't -- don't

9 remember that somehow he had been left free, after killing

10 Mr. Hadziselimovic, to kill more Muslims. How did you forget that?

11 A. There were a lot of tragedies in Srbac. I believe that the

12 Stankovic story had been over when he was arrested and incarcerated, but

13 he was let go by the court and he committed more crimes. I really did not

14 put the two in the same time frame or the same context. And this was not

15 my conscious doing. It was unconscious on my part. I really don't

16 remember the details, what preceded what. Stankovic was not my only

17 problem. And as the president of the Municipal Assembly, I was powerless.

18 I was a civilian. There was the police and there was the army. The two

19 of them were supposed to deal with such things.

20 I believe you when you describe things in the way you do, but at

21 that moment the president of the municipality could not do anything if

22 somebody was released by the army. I am -- I have -- I've forgotten what

23 preceded what, what came first, what came next. Hadziselimovic I knew

24 personally, and that's why I paid more attention to him. It may not be

25 fair of me to -- not to pay so much attention to the others who were also

1 victims. I'm saying this for the sake of those who are now listening to

2 me, the Bosniaks in Srbac who are listening to me. I can fool you, but I

3 cannot fool them, really. I apologise for saying this.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau has a question. May I just first

5 comment. You're giving information to this Court primarily, so that's

6 what should be on your mind. And it's a public hearing, so others will

7 be able to follow it. But that's your first responsibility.

8 Judge Hanoteau.

9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Sir, you just said: [In

10 English] "There were a lot of tragedies in Srbac." [Interpretation]

11 Whereas yesterday I thought you said that Srbac was one of the communities

12 that had not so many tragedies, that this community was spared from all

13 these tragedies. Isn't that what you said yesterday?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Srbac, we buried two fighters who

15 had been decapitated. That was a tragedy for Srbac. We also had another

16 murder where Serbs were killed by Serbs. We had a few attacks on the

17 Serbian families, again, by other Serbs. Their nails were pulled out by

18 pliers. They were tied, they were beaten to death, all in an attempt to

19 extract money from them. There were killings by the Muslims, by Serbs.

20 We had passersby through Serbs, we had checkpoints. Some military passed

21 through Srbac, units, brigades, and they caused trouble in Srbac.

22 I really can't remember as I sit here. There were problems every

23 day. Every day was a new drama that had to be dealt with. We had to

24 cooperate with the police and the army. That's why this event -- I'm not

25 minimising this event and its importance, but this all lasted far too long

1 and we were all exhausted. And if we were to do an analysis, I'm still

2 claiming that, in those times, where there was sadness all around, Srbac

3 was the place with the least number of tragedies. This is what I'm

4 saying.

5 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Sir, I understand very well. I

6 hear you. But I was under the impression that since yesterday you were

7 attempting to tell us that you lived in a quiet and peaceful community in

8 which not too many tragedies occurred. I was under the impression that

9 you did not know -- that you didn't want to know what was going on around

10 you, because in Srbac you were able to avoid all these stories, tragedies,

11 and all of a sudden I seem to hear you say -- I hear you say that there

12 were a lot of tragedies in Srbac as well. I am lost. I'm quite lost. I

13 do not understand your testimony anymore. Could you please tell us, as

14 the head of a community, what really happened.

15 You're not here to play a cat and mouse game. We are asking you

16 to tell us what happened in Srbac. Can you not give us the chronology of

17 the events, in hindsight? Can you not tell us what happened exactly in

18 Srbac? I would like to remind you that you are before a Tribunal and that

19 this Tribunal is seeking to establish the truth. Judges would like to

20 understand and hear the truth. You are here to tell us what happened the

21 way you saw it, period. That's all. Thank you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?

23 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] We've been waiting for this

24 answer, at least I'm speaking. As far as I'm concerned, I've been waiting

25 for that answer since yesterday.

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1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The municipality of Srbac, as I've

2 told you, had 22.000 inhabitants, more or less. Out of them, there were

3 90-plus per cent Serbs. I told you how many Muslim families there were,

4 how many Croats, and others.

5 When the war started, we did not have so much tension, because of

6 the figures, because of the ratio, and our goal was to prevent accidents

7 among the three peoples. However, refugees came from Croatia, from

8 Western Slavonia. They all came to Srbac. From Mrkonjic Grad -- when

9 Mrkonjic Grad fell, Srbac was designated as the place where several

10 thousand refugees would be accommodated in private houses, schools, and

11 elsewhere.

12 A lot of Croats and Serbs who went through Derventa had to pass

13 through all this turmoil and contact. There were other peoples who passed

14 through Srbac during the night. We didn't know who they were. And

15 accidents could happen. However, I claim that we did our utmost to put a

16 stop to such accidents and uncontrolled theft, murder, plunder, and

17 killings.

18 When soldiers came back home on leave, with arms, that was another

19 story and a special problem. People would start getting relaxed. They

20 would have a few drinks and started using weapons randomly. Sometimes

21 those weapons were pointed at Serbs. Serbs also got killed. These people

22 in Kobas were victims.

23 At that time, the situation was very difficult. Even if you were

24 too eager in dealing with the situation, then you could provoke those

25 people who were on the front lines, who could hold that against you.

1 However, given the circumstances, the geographical position, I can still

2 say that we had a lot less problems in Srbac than in other municipalities.

3 I don't know whether my answer satisfies you. I just tried to

4 portray the situation in very brief outlines as it was in Srbac at the

5 time. And that is why our efforts have been recognised by all those who

6 are familiar with the essence of all these conflicts in that area, despite

7 the victims. And now, when the Prosecutor asked me about the event in

8 Banja Luka and big speeches, I just ignored him. I went back to Srbac and

9 I dedicated my time to the problems in Srbac. I wanted to protect my

10 municipality from any risks. When 22.000 refugees, Croats and Muslims,

11 had to pass through Srbac on the way to Croatia, because we had good

12 relations with Croatia, the situation was particularly tense and there was

13 a danger that there would be a confrontation between the refugee Serbs who

14 were in Srbac and those who were retreating towards Croatia, Muslims and

15 Croats on their way to Croatia.

16 In that, we played a role for which Mr. Komarica gave us credit,

17 as well as the Croatian media, the Croatian side in general. Maybe this

18 may not be in very good taste what I'm telling you now, but this is what

19 the situation was.

20 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

21 MR. TIEGER:

22 Q. Let's just complete the Stankovic story before we move on. In

23 fact, the killing of those two Muslim people and the shooting of two

24 others on August 7th wasn't the end of Mr. Stankovic's activities, was it?

25 Because, as this judgement indicates, Mr. Milincic, somehow he was

1 released again. And in September of 1994 -- I see you shrugging your

2 shoulder, like, what could you do, and we'll talk about that in a moment,

3 but I want to note that for the record.

4 In September of 1994, he shot two people again. In that instance,

5 two Serb children, also from Srbac. You knew about that incident too,

6 didn't you?

7 A. I was informed in writing. In the morning, I received a report on

8 what had happened, and then I said, "People, can you save us from this

9 man? Can somebody put an end to what he's doing, the violence that he's

10 responsible for?" And it is very unfortunate that the president of the

11 municipality had to launch an appeal of that kind.

12 Q. And you were shrugging your shoulders as I asked you the question,

13 as if to say, "What could I do if the military authorities released this

14 guy to be free again?" Was that what you were trying to say? And now I

15 hear you whispering "yes," is that correct?

16 A. Yes. Yes, yes, that's correct.

17 Q. Let's try to recap the Stankovic story, then, if we can. In May

18 of 1992, he murdered Mr. Hadziselimovic. In August of 1992, he murdered

19 Hazim Zukanovic and --

20 A. I believe it was Hasima, a lady. Her name was Hasima.

21 Q. Thank you. And Reuf Alagic, and shot and seriously injured Hamza

22 Bojadzic and Sabra Alagic, Reuf's mother. And then in September of 1994,

23 free again, he shot two Serb children, and then was finally put in prison

24 until approximately 2002. That's all correct; right?

25 A. Now you have just reminded me of the Serbian children. I have

1 completely forgotten about them, unfortunately. It is correct what you

2 have just said. That detail, unfortunately, has escaped me.

3 Q. And yet, Mr. Milincic, you came to this Court and you showed the

4 Judges the partial documentation about Mr. Stankovic in order to convince

5 them that in Srbac, and presumably in other parts of Republika Srpska,

6 that if Muslims were attacked by Serbs, that the justice system took care

7 of it. That was the wrong thing to do, wasn't it, Mr. Milincic?

8 A. The system was not efficient; that is correct. But I have brought

9 proof and I have tried to show you how the civilian bodies could not

10 defend themselves from this pest that always accompanies a war.

11 I didn't want to deceive you. My documentation is not complete.

12 You have supplemented it. But my intention was to show you that there

13 were killings, that there were accidents, and that people were put on

14 trial. The efficiency of the system is a different story. This was

15 beyond the scope of authority of the civilian bodies in Srbac.

16 Q. No, Mr. Milincic. I'm sorry.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I think the matter is relatively clear,

18 where you said you brought documents to -- I think I summarised it even,

19 to make sure that everything was done to prosecute people, that it was --

20 it's now that you say that you wanted to demonstrate that the civilian

21 authorities were not responsible for the failure of the judicial

22 authorities, which is, of course, quite a different message.

23 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

24 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, far be it to come to Mr. Tieger's rescue.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

1 MR. JOSSE: But Mr. Tieger puts a serious allegation to the

2 witness.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 MR. JOSSE: And with respect, I agree with Mr. Tieger. He needs

5 to answer the question. I think Mr. Tieger was going to try again. And

6 the reason I rise to my feet is Mr. Tieger's last question --

7 JUDGE ORIE: If there's --

8 MR. JOSSE: -- actually contains two questions and I would invite

9 my learned friend to put the allegation to the witness, namely, he had

10 come here to avoid telling the truth. I mean, there really is no point

11 beating about the bush, in my submission, and to be fair to my learned

12 friend, he's not attempting to.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness told us several times that he

14 came here to tell the truth, and unfortunately we had to establish that it

15 was not in every way the full truth, the whole of the truth, and at the

16 same time, we also have to notice that even today the reasons he gave for

17 bringing these specific documents turn out to be slightly different

18 reasons at the end of his testimony. I mean, it doesn't need, as far as

19 we are concerned, it doesn't need much more attention.

20 Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

21 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Mr. Milincic, in fact, the reason you proactively set out to

23 obtain partial documentation to prove -- in an attempt to prove certain

24 points to the Court is because you believe that the actions taken in 1992

25 by the Bosnian Serb political and military authorities were appropriate in

1 the defence of the Serbian people; isn't that right?

2 A. Are we talking about Srbac or in general? I'm not sure about the

3 question.

4 Q. Let me put it in a slightly different way. You don't have any

5 quarrel with the use of illegal activity if you believe it to be in

6 defence of the Serb people, and, in fact, have advocated illegal activity

7 in the defence of the Serb people?

8 A. I don't know what you mean when you say "illegal activities in

9 order to defend the Serb people." And again, I'm not clear. What

10 specific activities pertaining to the defence of the Serb people? I'm not

11 clear about the question.

12 Q. Fine. How about this. How about this proposition. Let's take UN

13 peacekeeping forces hostage in order to use them as a bargaining chip

14 against the international community. That's something illegal and that's

15 something you advocated, isn't it?

16 A. Perhaps in a moment of desperation one can say anything, but there

17 are limits to which we can go in order to defend ourselves or do things. I

18 recall an event concerning an arrest of a UN representative. At the

19 moment, amongst the public, amongst the people, it seemed to be a wise

20 act. Later on, it turned out to be unwise.

21 Q. A wise act. Well, let's look first at your comments on the 24th

22 Session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly in January of 1993. We had an

23 opportunity to look briefly at that earlier and I told you we'd be

24 returning to it.

25 MR. TIEGER: It's tab 3, Your Honour, previous Exhibit P65, binder

1 15, tab 218.

2 And Mr. Milincic's comments begin at the English on page 68. The

3 relevant portion can be found on page 69.

4 Q. And Mr. Milincic, in B/C/S, that can be found at page 21, ERN

5 02149925. And at that time you said: "We too have something to blackmail

6 them with. Khomeini in his time held a very small number of Americans in

7 the American embassy in Tehran, and he sure did shake America quite well.

8 Well, we also have enough of those white men," possibly men in white, "or

9 others, and that could be some sort of a weapon. You know, we must

10 somehow rebel against history. That is some kind of wisdom as well. Thank

11 you."

12 A. At that moment, it seemed a logical thing to say. Today I

13 wouldn't utter such words, but at that time I thought it wise. The only

14 thing we could have done at that time, to address the events, was perhaps

15 to do this, but fortunately it all ended well.

16 Q. A lot of things were seen as wise at that time in order to defend

17 the Serb people in the eyes of the Bosnian Serb leadership that don't seem

18 wise in retrospect; isn't that right?

19 A. As I said, at that moment, things seemed that way.

20 Q. In fact, Mr. Milincic, the reason -- or among the reasons, at any

21 rate, that you offered a favourable and positive assessment of

22 Mr. Krajisnik's character, when asked by the Defence, was because you

23 believe he feels the same way as you do; that is, that many actions are

24 permissible, including illegal actions, in the defence of the Serb

25 people.

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1 A. You have to repeat your question, because I better be very

2 cautious when providing answers. Could you please repeat the question.

3 I'm not trying to provoke, really.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, it is a type of question which easily

5 results in debate rather than in witness testimony.

6 MR. TIEGER: Well, Your Honour, I'll just break it down, if I may,

7 to at least some more elementary steps.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.

9 MR. TIEGER:

10 Q. I understood you in response to questions asked by the Defence to

11 be offering a favourable assessment, evaluation, opinion, of

12 Mr. Krajisnik's character. Is that correct or not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I'm suggesting you to you that the reason behind that opinion is

15 that you believe him to share your attitudes, some of which you've just

16 expressed, toward defending the Serb people, and so you want to say

17 something favourable about him in court for that reason.

18 A. The knowledge I possess about Mr. Krajisnik, in the direction of

19 the fact that in Srbac I have never received either an oral or a written

20 directive from him pertaining to ethnic cleansing. Anything further than

21 that --

22 Q. You did offer an opinion beyond that, and you offered us a

23 favourable view of his character. And you were asked specifically about

24 his character. Let me give you a more concrete example. You've just

25 testified that you advocated the illegal activity of taking hostages.

1 Now, part of the reason, I submit to you, that you're here offering

2 favourable testimony to the extent you can, on behalf of Mr. Krajisnik, is

3 because you know that he advocated the same thing.

4 A. I can't respond with a yes or no, but I do not agree with the way

5 you formulated the question and with your conclusion.

6 Q. I want to play you two intercepts and then ask -- re-ask you -- or

7 ask you a question. And the first one is found at tab 9, and it's ETRR

8 012680.

9 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour, just for housekeeping, I should

10 probably get an exhibit number for this and then --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And apart from that, do the interpreters have a

12 transcript? Because I didn't -- the interpreters need to have a

13 transcript, because following the speed of the speech is -- it's tab 9 in

14 the bundle, and meanwhile, Mr. Registrar could assign a number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P988, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ORIE: P988. And then I think that's the audio. And then P

17 P988 --

18 THE REGISTRAR: ".A" would be the B/C/S transcript.

19 JUDGE ORIE: The B/C/S transcript.

20 THE REGISTRAR: P988A.1 would be the English translation of this.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Meanwhile, everyone has the copy in front of him.

22 Please proceed.

23 [Intercept played]

24 MX: Hi there, namesake.

25 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Hi there, namesake.

1 MX: How are you?

2 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Like king Milan Obrenovic.

3 MX: You're better than he was. You're working professionally

4 like doctors, you have the entire western world in mourning.

5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Well, right. So is there any news.

6 MX: This is what there is. I think that you're doing things very

7 well. This is the right way, because this hurts the most. You see, the

8 English have now gone to see Milosevic and are forcing him to recognise

9 Bosnia with the borders determined by the Avnoj Anti-fascist Council of

10 the National Liberation of Yugoslavia.

11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Who went there?

12 MX: The English.

13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Who from the English?

14 MX: I don't know. I've just received a message from Chicago that

15 the English have gone to Belgrade.

16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Uh-huh. To recognise ...

17 MX: Yes, to recognise Bosnia with the borders determined by the

18 Avnoj.

19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: So what do the English want?

20 MX: Well, they want to put the pressure on you. They want to

21 isolate and demoralise you completely.

22 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: They can't do either of the two. We've become

23 immune to that.

24 MX: Well, I know that, but they don't.

25 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I don't know how to explain it to them.

1 MX: You can't. They are stupid. It's a stupid nation. The

2 Anglo-Saxon brain is one with very limited abilities.

3 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: So what are you, the Serbs in the West, doing?

4 Why don't you give them a hint about what they should do?

5 MX: We don't want to teach them about how it's done. We're

6 teaching you. We are telling you what Anglo-Saxon brains are like because

7 you don't know them and we know them inside out.

8 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Right.

9 MX: Look, this thing that you're doing is ingenious, absolutely.

10 They have no options and they are constantly meeting. Kozirjev has called

11 you barbarians.

12 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Kozirjev?

13 MX: Yes. He says that you are barbarians because you tied the

14 Blue Helmets to the bridges, et cetera.

15 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Kozirjev? And we received some information

16 that he defended us.

17 MX: Come on, he didn't defend you. Don't you believe that. He's

18 a piece of garbage. He's a Jew before he's a Slav.

19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I know that.

20 MX: Look, the best ... It is ugly that there are 2.000 amphibious

21 troops on that American aeroplane. The English have deployed 1.500 of

22 their commandos. The French have deployed commandos as well. They are

23 putting psychological pressure on you, as if they were trying to get the

24 hostages out. You have to be prepared ... they are ... Die Welt, the

25 German paper, has published an article saying that they have learnt from

1 an unnamed source that if there is a rescue mission, it will be done by

2 helicopters at night.

3 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: We've received that information. We have

4 that.

5 MX: All right. So you have that.

6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: We know everything. They can continue. We'll

7 prepare that ...

8 MX: Look, there's another thing. Look, when you told me about

9 the two to three thousand, that's a very good number if it can be done.

10 It's a bit big, but it's very good, because you're spoiling their affairs.

11 Neither can they rescue them in such a mission, nor can they bring NATO

12 troops to Bosnia to evacuate the UNPROFOR, since you're holding 3.000

13 UNPROFOR members as hostages. Therefore, neither the first nor the second

14 idea is an option. All they can do is agree to your conditions. You

15 should negotiate everything, the territories, peace, anything, just not

16 the hostages. The holding of hostages is a new way of waging war. You

17 hold hostages as protection. Don't believe any promises. They have lied

18 before; they'll lie again. Therefore, the hostages are a guarantee.

19 Someone's word is no guarantee.

20 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, yes, I understand that. That's what

21 we'll do.

22 MX: You have no other choice. You're in a situation where you

23 can't do anything else. If you release them ... this time they've decided

24 to regroup them and put them all on Muslim territory. They will give you

25 all the enclaves in the east, Gorazde, Srebrenica, and Zepa, but when they

1 arrive on Muslim territory, then the Muslims will constantly attack you.

2 If you launch a counter-attack, they will bomb because you'll be attacking

3 the UNPROFOR. Therefore, they have chosen a different tactic, so you

4 mustn't let the hostages go anywhere, because you won't be able to catch

5 them again.

6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Whom mustn't we release?

7 MX: The hostages.

8 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, yes.

9 MX: Because you won't have a chance to catch them later and there

10 won't be anyone to defend you from the bombardment.

11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, yes.

12 MX: This is do or die moment for you. That's my opinion.

13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Good. That's it.

14 MX: Tell me how we stand in other places.

15 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Look, there's a great offensive.

16 MX: Theirs?

17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, yes.

18 MX: Where are they attacking us?

19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: On mount Ozren, in Bihac, everywhere.

20 MX: I heard that we've won back what we'd lost in Bihac.

21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, we have, some of it.

22 MX: Not everything?

23 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: We've won back some of it and that's good.

24 MX: I heard that your commander-in-chief has high blood problem.

25 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Says who?

1 MX: Well, he's at the VMA military medical academy.

2 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Well, yes, it's a small problem, but he's fit

3 as a fiddle.

4 MX: Fit as a fiddle.

5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, yes.

6 MX: It would be better if he were fit in the head.

7 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Right. We're a strange people. We're all

8 similar to each other.

9 MX: Who's that that laughed there?

10 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: It's me and my brother, nobody else.

11 MX: Ah, you have a brother. I didn't know that.

12 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, his name is Mirko. He's here to see me.

13 We're watching something and I'm talking with you.

14 MX: I saw a tied-up UNPROFOR coward. They asked him how they

15 were being treated. He said very well, that they were taken to sleep at

16 night and then brought back during the day. In fact, he told NATO that

17 the targets were unprotected at night and that they could strike.

18 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, yes, but tomorrow we'll ...

19 MX: Look, put them into eight-hour shifts. They are rotten.

20 They have very good devices for night-time bombardment.

21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Good. I think that they saw clearly what

22 would happen to them, so they have to take care.

23 MX: Look, they are counting on you giving in. Don't give in,

24 because you'll lose a lot later. This time you have to be strong right to

25 the end. I don't see any other way of dealing with them, because if

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1 you're strong first and then give in, they won't take you seriously. I

2 heard Douglas Herd a journalist. I asked him, "I hear that Mr. Karadzic

3 said that he would kill one UN soldier after each bomb that fell." He

4 replied that Mr. Karadzic had spoken rubbish earlier as well and that it

5 wasn't important what he said but what he did. Therefore, don't give

6 statements if you don't plan to follow them.

7 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: That's right. I absolutely agree.

8 MX: Say only what you're going to do and if you're able to do it.

9 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I absolutely agree.

10 MX: They appreciate only that. They only respect a firm opinion

11 and not softies.

12 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, yes, I absolute agree.

13 MX: You have to be very good there. I know that it's not easy.

14 It's easy for me for speak about it from here.

15 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: If nothing else, I respect that, my man. If

16 you only knew what a great thing it is that you sympathise with us. You

17 can't wage war here in our place. We give all this very high marks. If

18 only you knew what would happen were it not for our people.

19 MX: It's a bit easier like this, isn't it.

20 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: By all means. In the biggest evil, it's a

21 great thing when people find ...

22 MX: And we tell you something that's important; right?

23 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Of course. We very much respect that.

24 MX: I'm very happy about that, because I really want to help. I

25 want to see that first Serb state and then retire.

1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: There are only few such big Serbs in the

2 world.

3 MX: Create a state and then I can retire there.

4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: That's right. Good for us that we have such

5 wonderful people.

6 MX: Since I am a professor at university, I'll go to Banja Luka

7 and establish a university there.

8 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: It will be in Sarajevo as well.

9 MX: Forget about Sarajevo.

10 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: We want it there, where it's a bit harder for

11 us. It's easy to do there.

12 MX: We'll have to chase all the Mujos out, all the Turks.

13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: There are no -- there are no Muslims here in

14 our part.

15 MX: Forget about our part, man. The entire Sarajevo will be ours

16 or ... forget about our part.

17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: No division, huh?

18 MX: A lawyer called Di Maggio, specialising in international law,

19 is giving a lecture here and he's talking about the Balkan conflict and he

20 says that there are Bosnians, Serbs, and Croats there. So I asked him who

21 the Bosnians were and he said it was the Muslims. I told him that the

22 Serbs and Croats were Bosnians as well. He told me that the Serbs have

23 Serbs across the Drina and the Croats have Croats on the other side, but

24 the Muslims don't know where to hit. I replied that they didn't know

25 where to hit because they are not a nation. I told him that they wanted

1 to impose a group of people that are not a nation to rule over two

2 nations. That cannot be.

3 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: That's exactly so, and it's a disaster that

4 people don't know about it.

5 MX: It's not a nation. It's Serbs and Croats who converted to

6 Islam, nothing more. Renegades.

7 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Exactly, but God forbid, they are not our

8 people and we should split up.

9 MX: Look, at this moment we need to split up. I am certain that

10 we'll be joint again in a hundred years, but right now it's impossible.

11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: With whom?

12 MX: With the Turks.

13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: There's no way that we'll be joint with them.

14 MX: In a hundred years we will be joint economically, but now, no

15 way.

16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: We will never be joint with them. We'll curse

17 all our generations if they join them.

18 MX: Then let's do it like that.

19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Why would we join them? What do we need them

20 for? Only if they convert to another faith.

21 MX: That's right. They can become Orthodox again.

22 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: That's right.

23 MX: What's the situation near Orasje?

24 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: There's a big offensive, today and this

25 morning.

1 MX: Is that so? Are we holding out well?

2 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: We are, my man. I'll talk to you tomorrow.

3 MX: All the best. I'll talk to you. Give my regards to Radovan.

4 MR. TIEGER: And the next one will be quite brief. It's a

5 conversation between Mr. Krajisnik and Slobodan Stupar, on 28 May, 1992,

6 found in the same tab -- excuse me. Found at tab 8, and it needs a

7 number, Your Honour.

8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P989, Your Honours. The transcript

9 will be P989.A, and the translation will be P989A.1.

10 MR. TIEGER: This is, as I indicated, a conversation between

11 Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Stupar for a news programme, and the short clip

12 begins at page 2 of the English translation, with a comment by Mr. Stupar,

13 Mr. Krajisnik. According to news agencies, Mr. Chirac talked to the

14 president of Serbia.

15 STUPAR: Mr. Krajisnik, according to news agencies, Mr. Chirac

16 talked to the president of Serbia, Mr. Milosevic, today. He asked him to

17 use his authority and try to reach an agreement to release the UNPROFOR

18 soldiers. What is your comment on that conversation and the ability of the

19 president of Serbia to mediate in the present situation?

20 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: No heavy price. President Milosevic demands

21 and no divisions can make us not respect the president of our mother

22 state. But we are dealing with dirty tricks here. All the resolutions

23 that the foreign powers wanted to impose, they imposed through the French.

24 It is particularly the French side which shows no intention of helping us.

25 We regret that they are innocent guys, but we have to treat the

1 United Nations the way they deserve. The thing is, the UN has sided with

2 our enemy, and we have to ... because it cannot be a Serb is a lesser

3 being, whether he is a soldier or a civilian. If he is defending his home

4 and his freedom and if he is clearly not an aggressor on his own

5 territory. The UN and NATO are aggressors, and they have shown their true

6 colours. All their policies were directed against the Serbs, and we put

7 up with it in order to realise our just goals. In connection with the

8 events in Western Slavonia, and after the events in the safe areas, which

9 are in fact unprotected areas with civilians, but also in view of the

10 armed forces positions which keep attacking our territory, the UN has lost

11 the minimum of respect and trust the Serbs should have towards them, which

12 we tried to instil in our people.

13 "The UN has in fact, through NATO, committed a crime against our

14 people, and that is why the only solution is for the war to stop and for

15 peace to be introduced in this area. Those who have ordered the

16 bombardment do not want peace; they just generated an escalation of the

17 conflict.

18 "I do not want to jump to conclusions. Everything is possible in

19 diplomacy. We shall do our best to show flexibility and cooperativeness,

20 but we shall no longer allow the international mediators to bring us in

21 the situation such as at the 31 December, when we accepted a cease-fire,

22 which was then used to arm the Muslim army, while nothing has been done to

23 change the public position of America, which says that they just want to

24 hear clearly that the Serbian side accepts the Contact Group plan, which

25 has clearly shown that it is an unjust solution and that one side in the

1 conflict is totally against it and doesn't accept it."

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, for the previous intercept, do we have

3 any more information about the other interlocutor?

4 MR. TIEGER: Not at this moment, Your Honour, but I will -- I

5 think -- well, I'll pursue that and I think we may be able to obtain

6 further information.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

8 MR. TIEGER: -- that would assist.

9 JUDGE ORIE: We'll hear from you.

10 MR. TIEGER:

11 Q. Mr. Milincic, I'll put it to you simply. You and Mr. Krajisnik

12 share views about doing what is seen as necessary, even if it's illegal,

13 to defend the Serbs, and that's at least part of the reason why you

14 proactively sought out partial documentation to assist him here in court.

15 Yes or no?

16 A. My information is what it is. I offered it to you, but not only

17 to help Krajisnik, but also to help finding the truth. And the truth is

18 that in the municipality of Srbac and the situation that was there and the

19 influence of Krajisnik on the Serbs in the Srbac municipality. This is

20 the only thing I can tell you. What I have brought is just an attempt for

21 us to -- for you to understand what circumstances we were in, that we were

22 equally safe or equally threatened, both Serbs and Muslims.

23 MR. TIEGER: I have nothing further, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would like to seek a clarification on the

25 last answer you gave. You said that you -- "the truth is that in the

1 municipality of Srbac and the situation that was there and the influence

2 of Krajisnik on the Serbs in the Srbac municipality." What did you have

3 in mind when you said "the influence of Krajisnik on the Serbs in the

4 Srbac municipality"?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I saw Krajisnik in passing,

6 when this was not planned at a celebration or at a meeting, he would

7 always ask me how things were. He asked me to try and protect peace, to

8 protect Muslims and Croats, because he said, "If you are threatened by

9 them, then you are no Serbs at all." There were no other negative

10 influences. He never said anything negative. He always told me, "You are

11 easy to deal with, because you never have problems there."

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

13 Mr. Josse, any need to re-examine the witness?

14 MR. JOSSE: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Or would you rather first have a break? We could now

16 take the break of 20 minutes and then restart at five minutes to 6.00.

17 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Could I avail myself of that offer? But before

18 the break, perhaps I could address the Chamber in the absence of the

19 witness.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 Mr. Milincic, we will have a break after Mr. Josse has addressed

22 the Chamber on what seems to be a procedural matter. Could you please

23 follow Madam Usher.

24 [The witness stands down]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Josse.

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1 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I appreciate that I need to conduct my

2 case as I see fit, but I also appreciate that this Chamber, quite

3 properly, takes a proactive role in the receipt of evidence. I

4 deliberately didn't deal with the last tab in the bundle that I had -- the

5 Defence had prepared for this witness. It's part of an article from a

6 Croatian magazine which, in essence, as I understand it - it's not been

7 translated, of course - praises inter-ethnic relations between Srbac

8 municipality and the municipality across the river Sava, in about 1995.

9 And really, I deliberately wanted to wait to see the extent to which my

10 learned friend attacked the witness. Bearing in mind what he's been

11 asked, I am inclined to try and adduce that document in the course of

12 re-examination. However, I don't want to spend a lot of time on it, if

13 you and your colleagues take the view that really it wouldn't add anything

14 very much to his evidence.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, we do not know. First of all, we haven't

16 read it either, so it might well be that it adds to what you would

17 consider the proper balance between the issues dealt with in

18 cross-examination and then examination-in-chief, in view of the

19 development of the examination of this witness, including

20 cross-examination. I would not prevent you from doing it. I think it's

21 fair, although usually we expect the parties to exhaust, to the best of

22 their abilities, the evidence in the examination-in-chief, of course. But

23 I do understand under the present circumstances where you might not have

24 found time, but you have prioritised in a different way --

25 MR. JOSSE: Sorry to interrupt. It wasn't even so much that. It

1 was in my mind that --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you find it important, if you find it

3 important.

4 MR. JOSSE: It depended on the cross-examination.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Usually I would not reserve elements of the evidence

6 to see whether or not to use them after we heard what the

7 cross-examination is about. I mean, that would be the proper -- the -- an

8 improper approach, I would say, because then cross-examination would be a

9 kind of a try-out of what --

10 MR. JOSSE: I see that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But at the same time, we noticed that this is

12 not your strategy or not your usual approach. And I also do understand

13 that the development of the testimony of this witness might have -- might

14 not have been exactly what you expected from the witness. So therefore, I

15 would allow you to do it.

16 One advice: Please read it carefully, because -- before you ask

17 any questions to the witness about it, because it seems that -- let's just

18 take the issue of prosecution and sentence. Of course, one of the first

19 things that came into my mind, how do we identify what murder is dealt

20 with in this judgement. Of course, I can imagine, especially if you have

21 received the document only recently, that it brings you some surprises as

22 well. So therefore, my advice is to take care that you have seen every

23 single part of it.

24 Apart from that, would you need additional time with

25 Mr. Krajisnik? I mean, how -- usually second break is 20 minutes. If you

1 apply for 30 -- I'd like, to the extent possible, to finish with the

2 witness today. The Judges have already put a lot of questions to the

3 witness, so there might not be many left.

4 MR. JOSSE: If I could have 30, I would again accept that offer,

5 please.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll try to finish with the witness

7 today, and we'll have a break of 30 minutes.

8 --- Recess taken at 5.41 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 6.18 p.m.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.

11 MR. JOSSE: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution have chosen

12 to play this very long intercept and ask about one question at the end of

13 it. I intend to re-examine the witness extensively about the intercept,

14 if Your Honours will permit me.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, you are allowed to do that. But I take it

16 that we remain approximately within the time?

17 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then the witness may be brought into the

19 courtroom. I take it that you have no further issues, Mr. Josse.

20 MR. JOSSE: No.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milincic, you'll be re-examined by Mr. Josse.

23 Re-examined by Mr. Josse:

24 Q. Mr. Milincic, I'd like to begin my re-examination by putting to

25 you in part the very last question that my learned friend Mr. Tieger, on

1 behalf of the Prosecution, asked you. And I'm going to begin at the end

2 of the question. The end of the question was that you proactively sought

3 out partial documentation to assist Mr. Krajisnik here in Court. Is there

4 any truth in that allegation?

5 A. I believed that I should bring some documents to demonstrate what

6 circumstances we worked and lived under in Srbac during the war, that we

7 were not spared, none of us, and that we were not safe, none of us. And

8 this is what I have attempted to illustrate with the papers, showing that

9 there were Muslims in the Serbian army, that they had rights, and how they

10 exercised them.

11 As for the killings, unfortunately, I ignored two more killings.

12 But I also ignored the killings of two Serbs. But this is what happened

13 during the war. It was not my intention to mislead anybody or to create a

14 false impression of an idyll in Srbac. We tried to cope with problems as

15 best we could, and those problems arose from the war, even in an area such

16 was Srbac at the time. My powers, or lack of them, as a civilian

17 president, in order to protect the interests of the three sides, are also

18 illustrated by that. The general impression of the general public,

19 bearing in mind the circumstances that we lived in, shows that Srbac was

20 successful in maintaining order, and of course we regret the victims that

21 we still had, despite our efforts.

22 Q. Mr. Milincic, could I echo what, in particular, the learned Judge,

23 Judge Hanoteau, has said to you. Listen to the question that I'm asking

24 you. You've given a long explanation, which you have given to this Court

25 before. I want you to focus on the question that you're being asked.

1 I'll repeat my question once again.

2 It was suggested to you that you proactively sought out partial

3 documentation to assist Mr. Krajisnik here in Court. Do you understand

4 that question?

5 A. Yes, I understand the question. But that was not my intention. I

6 did not want to propose partial documents, biased documents, in order to

7 help Mr. Krajisnik.

8 Q. And it was further suggested to you that you and Mr. Krajisnik

9 share views about doing illegal things. Do you believe in doing illegal

10 things?

11 A. No. No, I don't think that anybody should do illegal things. But

12 I also believe that, based on one sentence that I uttered there, about

13 hostages, I believe, one shouldn't conclude that we support lawlessness.

14 On the contrary.

15 Q. Do you recall Mr. Krajisnik ever publicly advocating illegal

16 things?

17 A. From the intercept that I heard here, I concluded that there is a

18 story there that could be interpreted in one way or in another, and my

19 information, the information that I received in my municipality, do not

20 confirm that he ever asked for illegal things to be done.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, just -- we are not a jury; we are Judges

22 with some experience. We'd be greatly surprised if a witness, especially

23 after hearing the whole of his testimony, would answer to your question

24 whether he would share an intent with Mr. Krajisnik to do illegal

25 things."Yes, of course, I do share ..."

1 I mean, we are good enough observers from the testimony. The

2 witness explained what he did, under what circumstances he did it. At the

3 same time, we have heard what he said in the assembly. So all together,

4 we are perfectly able to make up our minds. And I don't think -- perhaps

5 for a jury it would make a difference, but, really, to seek confirmation

6 with question: "Did you come here with the intent ..." It's clear what

7 the witness did. The witness I think feared that there might be an

8 unbalanced view on what happened and very much was eager to not let it

9 happen that after his testimony there would still be such an unbalanced --

10 and therefore he may have sought to bring some material which, in his

11 view, completed the picture, which is, of course, not very wise for a

12 witness to do, because he has got no idea what our picture is until now;

13 he hasn't heard the evidence.

14 Therefore, I already more or less said to Mr. Tieger at an earlier

15 stage whether we'd need certain types of questions. He continued them, as

16 a matter of fact. I say the same to you, and I think it's -- I hope you

17 understand what I mean.

18 MR. JOSSE: I do. I'm going to move on. It may be a subject I'd

19 like to return to when we've a little bit more time, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Fine.

21 MR. JOSSE:

22 Q. The intercept, Mr. Milincic, 29th of May of 1995, what was

23 happening in the Republic of Srpska in relation to NATO?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, I think there would be no problem if there

25 was some leading on these events. I mean that there were specific type of

1 problems, I mean, is so widely known, I would say, that eliciting from the

2 witness this in the traditional, non-leading way is not really necessary.

3 But Mr. Tieger certainly will object if he thinks that leading goes too

4 far.

5 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

6 Q. NATO was bombing, in part, the Republika Srpska; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. That bombing was directed against the Serbs?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Serbs living in the Republika Srpska were very upset?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. And would you accept that the conversation between Mr. Krajisnik

13 and Mr. X had that backdrop, the backdrop of the bombing, to put it into

14 some sort of context?

15 A. Yes. The content of the conversation points to that. This X

16 suggests things from a distance. He is safe and he tells us what we were

17 supposed to do here. I was always against those advisors who provide

18 advice from a distance. This conversation was, as you've heard, full of

19 suggestions for us to do what they think we should do, from their safe

20 position.

21 Q. Just help me, and indeed the Chamber: How were you able to glean

22 from the conversation that X was at a safe distance? What was it that he

23 said that made you come to that conclusion?

24 A. He says, "I'm going to come and establish a university in Banja

25 Luka," which clearly shows that he is not here. I don't know where he is.

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1 We first have to survive, to save our hide, the area, schools, houses,

2 roads. He mentions the next hundred years or so. It is just romantic

3 stories.

4 MR. JOSSE: Could the witness have a look, please, at tab 14 of

5 the Defence documents.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Have you dealt with the --

7 MR. JOSSE: I have.

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- telephone conversation? Then I would have one

9 additional question to you.

10 Part of the conversation is: "I saw a tied-up UNPROFOR coward.

11 They asked him how they were being treated. He said, Very well, that they

12 were taken to sleep at night and then brought back during the day. In

13 fact, he told NATO that the targets were unprotected at night and that

14 they could strike."

15 And then Mr. Krajisnik says: "Yes, yes, but tomorrow we'll ..."

16 And then this person says: "Look, put them into eight-hour

17 shifts. They're rotten. They have very good devices for night-time

18 bombardment."

19 "Tied-up UNPROFOR coward," do I have to understand that they were

20 tied up to targets which could be bombed by NATO in order to prevent them

21 from further doing that, and that in order to prevent that it happened at

22 night, that they would put them on the eight-hour shifts, including the

23 night? Is that a correct understanding of ...?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I watched those scenes on TV.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I read this, and it came into my mind that

1 people were tied to targets, well, possible targets for bombardment. Is

2 that a correct understanding, in your view, of what is said here?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe so. I believe that they

4 were target-oriented. It was about some facilities that had to be

5 protected.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. By tying UNPROFOR hostages to those objects?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Josse.

9 MR. JOSSE: Tab 14, please.

10 Q. This is a copy of an article that you brought with you; is that

11 correct, Mr. Milincic? Just yes or no, because I want to lead you through

12 some of this, because it will make it much easier.

13 A. Yes, I have brought this as well.

14 Q. And indeed, you have still in your possession the original of

15 this. It's from a colour magazine; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And --

18 A. This is a Croatian weekly called Arena, published in Zagreb.

19 Q. And how did it come into your possession, the magazine, that is?

20 A. People from Croatia sent this to me when it was published.

21 Q. Have you any idea when it was published?

22 A. In 1995, in late 1995, I believe.

23 Q. Now, we are again suffering from the same handicap of not having a

24 translation. What I want you to do, briefly if you can, is to summarise

25 what you understand this article to be saying.

1 A. In 1995, when the so-called Autonomous Region of Krajina fell,

2 after the Bljesak and Oluja operations of the Croatian Armed Forces, and

3 as the Serbs were fleeing towards these areas of Republika Srpska, and

4 this is what the article is all about. The Bosniaks and Croats started

5 withdrawing from those areas because they feared a retaliation by the

6 Serbs who were fleeing the Croatian Armed Forces and arriving in Bosnia

7 and Herzegovina, i.e., Republika Srpska.

8 Based on previous agreements between the vice-president of

9 Republika Srpska, Dr. Nikola Koljevic, and the representative of the

10 International Red Cross, Sommaruga, which were struck in either 1992 or

11 1993, Srbac was designated as a place which was safer and more secure than

12 other municipalities to be like a customs zone or a no man's zone, where

13 the families could find shelter and get connected and reunited. We had

14 Serb families moving towards Bosnia and Herzegovina, as well as Croats and

15 Muslims who were crossing the Sava near Srbac to go on to the river Sava,

16 to a place called Davor.

17 In 1995, which is the year that this article writes about, when

18 these things were happening in Croatia and when the Croatian army

19 liberated the area that I have mentioned, and when the AR Krajina

20 disappeared, and when numerous Serbs had been pushed and thus jeopardised

21 the Muslims and Croats, the Muslims and Croats crossed the Sava to go to

22 Croatia, near the place called Davor.

23 This was a dramatic period, because 22.000 Bosniaks and Croats

24 from various municipalities of Krajina across Srbac were transported in

25 various vehicles, lorries and so on and so forth. This was done in an

1 organised manner. And they crossed the Savo to go into Croatia.

2 This article describes that period and describes a man who is

3 calling across from the river Sava, giving a message from the president of

4 the municipality of Davor to the president of the municipality of Srbac,

5 asking the two of them to meet and to organise this crossing in the safest

6 possible manner. This article also brings the story of individuals,

7 Croats and Muslims, the tragic stories of those who crossed into Croatia

8 and what happened to them there.

9 The point here is that it is only a fortunate thing that there was

10 such two places as Srbac and Davor, where people could find shelter for a

11 while until the political situation was resolved on both sides. And when

12 people returned to their homes, the Srbac municipality received a lot of

13 thank-you notes, which, in the general atmosphere of catastrophe, offered

14 help to these people. And I may be repeating myself when I say that about

15 a month ago, in Banja Luka, the Croatian grammar school was opened in

16 Banja Luka. The Banja Luka bishop approached me on that occasion and

17 thanked me for everything that we had done in those hard times. He knew

18 what the situation was like, and this article is but a fragment of the

19 overall picture.

20 Q. It mentions you in a number of places. I think it states that you

21 were in fact educated, in part, in Zagreb. Is that right?

22 A. This is a mistake. I have a lot of students, former students, in

23 Croatia. I graduated from the University of Novi Sad.

24 Q. And it generally talks about your role as president of the

25 municipality in the events that you've just described; is that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, we'll submit that for translation, and

3 could that be given a number, please.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D102, Your Honours.

6 MR. JOSSE: I have nothing else. Thank you very much.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

8 MR. TIEGER: Nothing arises, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I have one question.

10 Questioned by the Court:

11 JUDGE ORIE: I noticed that from different parts of your

12 testimony, it appears that Kobas was a mainly Muslim village. Is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Although there were quite a number of Serbs living

16 there as well, let's say up to perhaps 10 per cent?

17 A. There is the so-called Kobas centre, and there is also a

18 periphery, and Bosniaks are mostly in the centre. And in the peripheral

19 part, there are also Serbs. The population is somewhat mixed, but the

20 centre is mostly composed of Muslims, Bosniaks.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Are the Muslims and the Serbs who used to live in

22 Kobas, are they still living together in that area? Because I noticed

23 that on the list of candidates, some candidates, mainly not of SDS or SDA,

24 that they are Serbs but living in Kobas. I noticed that this is for Mile

25 Majdanac. I don't know whether the name is familiar to you.

1 A. It does ring a bell.

2 JUDGE ORIE: It is true for Aleksandar Nikolic?

3 A. Yes. He died. I used to know him.

4 JUDGE ORIE: And for Milanko Dzekic?

5 A. Yes, I know him.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Do they still live there? Of course, I do understand

7 that Mr. Nikolic died. Did he die during the war or after the war?

8 A. During the war.

9 JUDGE ORIE: During the war. The other two persons, are they

10 still living there?

11 A. According to my information, they do. If they're still alive,

12 yes, they are.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the Muslims that were living in Kobas, does

14 the majority of those who lived there at the beginning of the war still

15 there?

16 A. In Kobas?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 A. 69 families left during the war from Kobas, and refugees from

19 Vozic [phoen], near Doboj, moved from their houses, the Serb refugees.

20 After the war the situation was reinstated. I believe that everybody

21 returned but the young ones, who decided not to go back home, whereas the

22 older people returned to their homes. The person who is in charge of that

23 in the municipality, who is in charge of the restoration of property, left

24 his job. Actually, lost his job. Once the property issues were resolved,

25 the office was closed down and that person had nothing left to do.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Does that mean that those who left their property

2 either got it back or were compensated, or is there anyone who is not, or

3 not, fully compensated for property they left behind?

4 A. I wasn't in the Srbac municipality for long, but according to most

5 of the information I received, a lot of people returned, and they all

6 moved back into their houses. And whether some houses were damaged or

7 not, I don't know, but I believe they all returned to their properties.

8 And to add: A new mosque was built. It wasn't restored, but rather a

9 completely new one was built in Kobas.

10 JUDGE ORIE: But do I have to understand your testimony to be that

11 every Muslim house that was still there after the war was again occupied

12 by its original owners?

13 A. When I left for The Hague, before that, I went to see the current

14 municipal president in Srbac, as well as the assembly president, and I

15 told them I was to go to The Hague and that I had to obtain some

16 information as to what was happening. I asked to see the papers that I

17 brought, and I asked them about Kobas, whether things were okay over

18 there. And they said all the people returned to their property and there

19 are no outstanding issues.

20 JUDGE ORIE: You have no personal knowledge of it?

21 A. No.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the last two days learned us to be very

23 cautious at least before accepting information you received before leaving

24 to The Hague.

25 I have no further questions. Any need arisen from the questions

1 of the Bench?

2 Then, Mr. Milincic, this concludes your testimony in this Court.

3 I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and to answer the

4 questions of both parties and of the Bench. We appreciate it, that you

5 were willing to come, and we wish you a safe trip home again.

6 Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Milincic.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any other procedural matter at this moment,

9 apart from --

10 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Josse, do you have any information

12 now on the witness which is expected to appear on Monday?

13 MR. JOSSE: No. It's a very regrettable state of affairs. We

14 will know tomorrow morning, so I am told, whether he will have a visa to

15 enable him to travel to this country over the weekend.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to urge my

17 government to issue visas, because I've got nothing to do with them.

18 MR. JOSSE: Well, it's not a fault of your government,

19 Your Honour. Let me make that quite clear. And it's not the fault of the

20 VWS. Let me make that also --

21 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not going to inquire any further into whose fault

22 it is, but it sounds a bit as coming close to miracle.

23 We'll then adjourn until next Monday, unless we receive

24 information about the witness not being able to travel to The Hague. And

25 then instructions will follow whether we would nevertheless be in Court

1 next Monday afternoon, perhaps for other reasons, or whether we would just

2 wait until the witness is available to be examined.

3 So therefore, provisionally, we adjourn until Monday, the 14th of

4 November, Courtroom I, quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon.

5 MR. JOSSE: Thank you for your understanding.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.51 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day of

8 November 2005, at 2.15 p.m.

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