1 Thursday, 11 May 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone. Mr. Registrar, would you

6 please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 We had a few matters that are still waiting for a resolution in

11 closed session, but I'll wait for the parties to see whether there's any

12 news or any information.

13 MR. TIEGER: With respect to one matter, Your Honour, that

14 information related to that was provided by e-mail. The Court should have

15 that now.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I'm take it that this is sent to the legal

17 officer. Yes. Then it might be that it's not yet sent to us. I'll check

18 at a later moment.

19 Then, Mr. -- Oh, there's one other matter.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There's one matter. The Prosecution has

22 provided the Chamber with information about statements available to the

23 Prosecution. The Chamber would like to receive copies of those

24 statements. I'm not going into any further detail because there's some

25 confidentiality involved, but the Chamber would like to receive as soon as

1 possible copies of those statements.

2 MR. TIEGER: We anticipated that possibility, and that's in

3 progress right now.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much. Mr. Stewart -- yes,

5 Mr. Harmon.

6 MR. HARMON: Just one brief intervention, Your Honour, just for

7 the record. We this afternoon provided to the Defence on CD copies of the

8 videos that are found in P1083, 1088, Prosecution Exhibit 1089, 1090, and

9 1091.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As a matter of fact, since I always like to

11 know what I'm talking about, I invited Mr. Registrar to copy me that part

12 of the list so that I know what it exactly is.

13 MR. HARMON: These are videotapes shown during the testimony of

14 Mr. Poplasen.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the Defence will have one week to object

16 if there's any reason to object to the material. Yes. These were all --

17 all videotapes. Yes. Thank you very much. I fully agree with you,

18 Mr. Harmon.

19 Mr. Stewart, are you ready to continue the --

20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, yes. I Your Honour, I wonder if - it

21 would be very brief - if we could go into private session for me to raise

22 a point related to protected witnesses.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll turn into private session.

24 [Private session]

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20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Mr. Stewart, you may

23 proceed.

24 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 WITNESS: MOMCILO KRAJISNIK [Resumed]

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 Examination by Mr. Stewart [Continued]

3 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, immediately before the adjourned yesterday evening,

4 we were considering a meeting which you had with Mr. Izetbegovic in early

5 April, 1992. And the next question is, Mr. Krajisnik, what was the

6 content of the discussion between you and Mr. Izetbegovic at that meeting?

7 A. The subject of our discussion was actually the solution we were

8 looking for in order to stop the war, and one of the main analytical

9 issues we discussed was the issue of Sarajevo, because the war started in

10 Sarajevo, and we thought it was the most difficult territory.

11 Q. And if it is possible to say that's the way the discussion went,

12 did proposals come primarily from you or primarily from Mr. Izetbegovic or

13 was it evenly to'ing and fro'ing of suggestions on how to resolve the

14 situation?

15 A. Concerning the first issue, that's how to stop the war, we talked

16 spontaneously. It was an exchange based on our mutual desire to find a

17 way to stop the armed conflict, because we both realised that it had

18 already reached serious dimensions.

19 Q. And was there a -- a nub of the potential solutions under

20 discussion?

21 A. As the entire conflict culminated in Sarajevo -- maybe I didn't

22 explain the background well enough, but if you want to hear it, I can

23 explain what this peace rally was all about. It took place in Sarajevo,

24 and before that, in the negotiations, we presented maps, and it was

25 suggested that the entire Bosnia be transformed into three constituent

1 units, whereas Sarajevo, according to one proposal, should have been under

2 the government of the United Nations for a while pending a solution.

3 Since the war started in Sarajevo and both of us were natives of

4 Sarajevo, I told him, "Let's find a temporary solution for Sarajevo just

5 to stop the war and then continue looking for a final solution during

6 peace." And as Mr. Kecmanovic testified, we talked in fact exactly as

7 Mr. Kecmanovic described.

8 Q. Well, Mr. Krajisnik --

9 A. I just have one small correction to make.

10 Q. We heard you say you have one small correction to make,

11 Mr. Krajisnik.

12 A. The correction I have to make is in fact to the description given

13 by Mr. Kecmanovic. The two of us agreed that he should propose a

14 solution. He sent his proposal to Pale, and according to him he didn't

15 receive a reply from the leadership. I did not receive that proposal he

16 sent, because at the time I was in Zabrdje at the other end of town, and I

17 don't know any details about what he sent and how and to whom. For a

18 while, he wasn't aware of it, but I was in Zabrdje, not at Pale.

19 Mr. Koljevic was there, however, and he replied, probably after

20 consultations with others, and his answer was positive, affirmative. But

21 I didn't answer, didn't respond to his proposal because I hadn't seen it.

22 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you deal with these questions to a considerable

23 extent by saying, well, it was exactly as Mr. Kecmanovic described. These

24 proposals were not explored in any great detail in the course of

25 Mr. Kecmanovic's evidence. Is it correct you -- it was you rather than

1 Mr. Kecmanovic who was the -- the source of proposed solutions on the Serb

2 side, wasn't it, at this meeting?

3 A. At that meeting, in order to assist the cessation of hostilities,

4 I told Mr. Izetbegovic it would be a good idea to find a temporary

5 solution for Sarajevo. That was later qualified by some people as a

6 suggestion to divide Sarajevo, and that is very far from the truth.

7 Mr. Izetbegovic said, "Well, suggest something." And I replied, "It would

8 be best if we sat down together to discuss it based on ethnic areas. Let

9 us find that solution on a temporary basis just to stop the war." And

10 then he said, "Let's have Mr. Kecmanovic prepare that temporary solution."

11 Mr. Kecmanovic seemed a bit reluctant but finally accepted.

12 However, I didn't have any contacts with either him or Mr. Izetbegovic

13 after that.

14 I have in fact another correction. When Mr. Kecmanovic said that

15 I had talked on the phone to Mr. Izetbegovic about the issue of Sarajevo,

16 that that conversation was not about Sarajevo. I called him up because my

17 trip from Zabrdje to Ilidza was marked by an incident. A Muslim police

18 car stopped us on the road, and they captured my escorts. So from Ilidza

19 I called up late Izetbegovic and asked him to have those people released.

20 He told me he wasn't aware of that incident, but at the end of the day he

21 had them released.

22 That was the reason why I called Izetbegovic, not to discuss

23 Sarajevo. Maybe there was some misunderstanding between the two of them.

24 But in any case, that telephone call had nothing to do with the meeting we

25 had earlier in his office.

1 Q. Well, let's return to the meeting, Mr. Krajisnik. What -- what

2 essentially we heard from Mr. Kecmanovic was that to some extent

3 Mr. Izetbegovic was saying to you, Mr. Krajisnik, come up with proposals,

4 and you were saying to Mr. Izetbegovic come up with proposals, and at some

5 point Mr. Kecmanovic prepared a number of alternative proposals which he

6 then sent to Pale. But perhaps to remind you, Mr. Krajisnik, what was not

7 explored in Mr. Kecmanovic's evidence is the content of those proposals,

8 what the suggested solutions were for Sarajevo. So my invitation, a

9 question, in other words, to you, Mr. Krajisnik, is to explain. And it

10 may have to be fairly full explanation. Explain to the Trial Chamber,

11 Mr. Krajisnik, what the situation was in Sarajevo and what the possible

12 solutions were for the temporary separation or temporary division of

13 Sarajevo that you have mentioned.

14 You've -- we brought up the map of Sarajevo from the vault, the

15 P284, in case that is of any assistance to you. We also, of course, still

16 have the map from yesterday, which is at page 25 of the map book, 5 --

17 P527, in case that should help as well, because it does occur to me that

18 map is likely to be of some assistance in offering such an explanation.

19 It might be the map needs to be different and physically placed for you to

20 be able to use it, Mr. Krajisnik.

21 Perhaps while this is happening, Mr. Krajisnik, it might be a

22 useful --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, is it -- I do understand it's not

24 very comfortable, but is it still workable for the interpreters? Yes, it

25 seems to be. Please proceed.

1 MR. STEWART:

2 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I was only going to offer a gentle reminder but you

3 probably -- and I don't suppose this is in dispute, you probably know more

4 about Sarajevo than everybody else in this the courtroom at the moment

5 will do, put together, for the rest of our lives and please bear that in

6 mind with your explanations. We've picked up plenty in the course of the

7 case but there is that fairly big gap still. So take it at the

8 appropriate speed, Mr. Krajisnik, is what I'm suggesting.

9 A. What we see here is the urban part of Sarajevo. This, roughly, is

10 downtown. Old town municipality, in other words.

11 This, roughly, is Novo Sarajevo municipality. This is

12 municipality Novi Grad. This is Ilidza municipality, and this is Vogosca

13 municipality.

14 You see, Your Honours, that there are urban parts here, on one

15 hand, and outskirts covered by villages. Do you see how the population is

16 concentrated?

17 In this area here, we have the largest concentration of -- largest

18 density of population.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.

20 MR. STEWART: I don't know how it works. I wonder if it's

21 possible I don't know if the camera -- I don't know whether it does it

22 automatically, I wonder if it's possible for the video camera to stay on

23 the map because otherwise the transcript later will be hard to follow.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. To the extent it is permitted under the

25 directive for the technicians, because there are certain instructions so

1 as to put a Judge on the screen who speaks, which is done now, as you may

2 see. To the extent compatible with that, and especially when

3 Mr. Krajisnik is pointing at the map that we should focus as much as

4 possible on the map.

5 Let's proceed, and I'll keep an eye on it that we don't have to

6 explain for the record that -- to say in words what Mr. Krajisnik is doing

7 on the map, yes.

8 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. That's what I had in mind.

9 Thank you. I hope Your Honour's direction overrides that directive for

10 these purposes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, as a matter of fact, as long as we are

12 speaking, I take it that Mr. Krajisnik will not continue to point at the

13 map with the pointer but you see that usually the one who speaks is on the

14 screen. It's part of the directive. Let's see if we can also follow on

15 our screens the explanation of Mr. Krajisnik. If there would be a very

16 specific issue because this is just generally pointing at the areas of

17 Sarajevo but if it comes to some detail it might be necessary to repeat

18 something and to point at some movements in words as well.

19 MR. STEWART: Absolutely, Your Honour. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So you see, municipalities are

22 divided this way.

23 Along this edge, if I can put it that way, of this urban area we

24 had the so-called blockade siege of Sarajevo. And I say so-called. I'll

25 explain why. These are Serbian neighbourhoods, and everybody took up

1 positions in their own neighbourhood. Above, overlooking this urban area,

2 is Pale, towards the east. Towards the south is Trnovo. You can't see it

3 now. Behind Vogosca, as you go further north, is Ilijas. Behind Ilidza

4 is Hadzici municipality. Those are satellite municipalities that later

5 became integral parts of the town of Sarajevo.

6 At the point when things culminated and armed conflict began, all

7 of this remained in Muslim hands. So if we're talking about the town, the

8 town is in Muslim hands. However, in their ethnic areas, the Serbs had

9 their ethnic areas covering meadows, forests, et cetera. We had the

10 largest concentration of Serbs here, maybe 100.000, and another 30.000 on

11 the periphery.

12 So we talked. If anybody should want to divide Sarajevo for

13 economic purposes, leaving everybody where they were, it was necessarily

14 always to the disadvantage of the Serbian side because there were Serbs on

15 both sides. So the proposal was as follows: This is the centre, the

16 downtown area. Serbs held some villages here and here. And this largest

17 area, the urban area, was held by Muslims. And the proposal at the time

18 was to freeze things as they were pending a fair solution for transforming

19 Sarajevo that we would continue to look for.

20 You see, this concentration of the population here is ten times

21 larger than the entire population of the periphery. So they have 80 per

22 cent, the Serbs of the territory, and 10 per cent in town, in the Muslim

23 area.

24 This is Zabrdje, which I called the historic place. So from here

25 I went to Ilidza, and Mr. Karadzic came from Pale. You see this airfield

1 here, in an armoured vehicle, in fact a combat vehicle, the army drove him

2 there to Ilidza.

3 So if you had a situation like that leaving everybody where they

4 were in their neighbourhoods, there was a basis for this temporary

5 solution.

6 When we talked to Cutileiro on the 18th or the 19th of March, you

7 can read exactly in the newspaper what Karadzic said about how we needed

8 to transform the town. There should have been ex-territorial areas state

9 authorities buildings divided among the sites, et cetera, but that was not

10 the subject of our conversation. The subject of our discussions was to

11 find a temporary solution to stop the war and to continue talking, to have

12 the conference going on.

13 Without a map it's very difficult to understand Sarajevo. When

14 you see this large blue blob, it doesn't mean anything. And this

15 territory here, it turns out that a whole blue area is very large

16 belonging to Serbs, whereas there are only 10.000 there, whereas in this

17 smaller urban area there were 3 or 400.000 people.

18 You see locations here, like Hrasnica. This too. This is also

19 Hrasnica. The airport was between -- in the line of fire, and you

20 couldn't cross to the other side without running into trouble. You heard

21 witnesses talking about that.

22 Not even theoretically were I able to go to Lukavica, whereas

23 Karadzic and Koljevic were able to cross because they were driven in a

24 combat vehicle, and they went to Ilidza to meet Mr. Cutileiro, whereas I

25 was going from Zabrdje, and this is how -- this is where they captured our

1 military patrol about which I called up Mr. Izetbegovic, asking him to

2 intervene. All these areas here were separate towns into -- at one point

3 but eventually incorporated into Sarajevo and turned into real towns.

4 They became satellite neighbourhoods, municipalities. They were still,

5 however, 30 or 40 kilometres away from the centre of the town.

6 This picture is very telling. One witness talked about dividing

7 municipalities. Do you know how the borders of municipalities run? They

8 run zigzag like streets. The border of one municipality is a street, and

9 the same is true of another. You have to write down the names of streets,

10 and that's the way to divide municipalities. Sometimes the same street

11 runs through two municipalities.

12 The solution for Bosnia was not supposed to apply to Sarajevo as

13 well. Sarajevo needed its own particular solution for -- for its

14 purposes. That is why it looks on all maps, and it is in fact true, that

15 Serbs are around this central area, whereas most of the Muslims are within

16 that centre. And that was doable within 24 hours. Everybody would simply

17 standstill in their ethnic area.

18 You can see that on the map where the municipalities are divided,

19 too. It's exactly this way the urban area that I referred to, outside an

20 area that belongs to a municipality as well.

21 Q. The -- the various different ways of producing a temporary

22 solution that were under discussion at the meeting, were they variations

23 on a theme in the sense that they were relatively modest differences from

24 a basically -- from basically the same essential plan, or were they

25 radically different possibilities?

1 A. Those who actually carried out the urban organisation of Sarajevo

2 intentionally included the Serb and Muslim parts. It was the Muslims who

3 were a majority in almost the entire area. This wasn't actually

4 intentional. Whoever did it did not just take the central part and divide

5 that off.

6 Now, if you look at this here, when Witness Krsman Sinisa talked

7 about this, he talked about Zabrdje, for 300 years that village was there,

8 and authorities were based here in Novi Grad, and you couldn't even get a

9 permit to build a house. Our proposal was to transform Sarajevo to have

10 several municipalities in order to resolve local matters at local level.

11 Now, Mr. Stewart is asking whether there were any major

12 differences involved. It suited the Muslim side not to touch this kind of

13 organisation, because they had a majority in practically every

14 municipality except for one municipality maybe, especially when national

15 parties came to power.

16 If you recall the municipality of Novo Sarajevo, they legalised

17 everything, all the houses that had been built illegally, buildings that

18 were supposed to be torn down, people who moved in and illegally built

19 houses and changed the ethnic pattern over the past ten years. Everybody

20 knows that in Sarajevo. It's a different thing, the fact that in

21 socialism you weren't allowed to talk about things like that without being

22 called a nationalist, a chauvinist, or whatever. But there were two

23 proposals. They didn't want anything to be changed. Before, when the

24 talks were held with Mr. Cutileiro and in their map, Your Honours, you

25 will see that Sarajevo completely belonged to the federation, whereas in

1 our map, in the Serb map, and in Cutileiro's map, it was supposed to be

2 under the UN for the time being and then to work for a transformation that

3 would be satisfactory to all.

4 It was impossible to divide Sarajevo. That is not true that I

5 wanted some kind of walls to be built or whatever. We should simply have

6 a larger number of municipalities so that people could have freedom at

7 local level to resolve issues related to waterworks, electricity, and what

8 have you not.

9 So when I talked to Mr. Izetbegovic, I felt Mr. Izetbegovic's wish

10 to have this stopped. At least that's the impression I had. And he --

11 that's why he said, "Well, Mr. Kecmanovic, why don't you work out for a

12 proposal and let's discuss it then. It's better to discuss this than to

13 wage a war."

14 I have to tell the truth. That's the impression I got. I did not

15 get an answer. I did not see Mr. Kecmanovic's proposal because he seen

16 that to Pale, and I was in Zabrdje at the time.

17 Q. And the -- do you know this, then, Mr. Krajisnik: The proposals

18 that Mr. Kecmanovic was to produce, did they essentially amount to a

19 drawing of boundaries for the purposes of this proposed temporary

20 division?

21 A. No boundaries. We have several minutes there and records where we

22 always took Geneva as an example. There is one town around Geneva. I

23 know. I was there. It's a French town, I think. I think -- I cannot

24 remember its name now. So this was this restaurant that was half in

25 France and half in Switzerland. The only thing we wanted was to have a

1 transformation of a big city, and Brussels was an example where somebody

2 would have a particular neighbourhood where they could resolve problems

3 related to utilities, for example.

4 Your Honours, may I just remind you that during the First World

5 War Rajlovac was better known than Sarajevo, and people were saying where

6 is this Sarajevo? Is it near Rajlovac? However, Rajlovac remained a

7 backwater because everything was done in Sarajevo. Economic questions

8 were important. Universities were there too. And why would we not have

9 hospitals, schools, universities, stadiums? Everybody should use that.

10 We cannot build new ones for ourselves, so let's just regulate life

11 according to our needs, and that's what we wanted to do.

12 You saw the municipality of Novi Grad. They wouldn't let Rajlovac

13 have a local commune. They didn't allow the procedure to be initiated.

14 It was simply out-voted.

15 Mr. Kecmanovic never would have proposed any boundaries or any

16 divisions. These would be "boundaries" of municipalities. He went a bit

17 beyond that. He said, "Well, would this do in terms of transforming

18 Sarajevo?", as far as I understood him then. And he also wrote something

19 in newspaper articles, that he gave some solutions that could some day be

20 a basis for a final solution.

21 MR. STEWART: Mr. Krajisnik, it occurs to me that -- that the

22 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, it occurs to me that -- that the word I used in

23 English, "boundaries," may be tendentious as you're hearing it in a way

24 that I hadn't intended. The -- were the -- the variations of the

25 proposals, they involved drawing different lines on the map for the

1 purposes of the temporary division, did they?

2 A. Yes, boundaries, divisions, these are sensitive words. If I were

3 speaking freely, I would speak freely and use those words, that there are

4 municipalities and there are boundaries between municipalities in a city

5 but the town was not divided. There are no boundaries between

6 municipalities. It's not that you see something that is a border like an

7 interstate border. There is a demarcation line, what municipality a

8 particular neighbourhood belongs to. So from that point of view you're

9 right, yes.

10 Q. And the temporary -- you used the word "standstill,"

11 Mr. Krajisnik. What did you have in mind? Would a standstill involve --

12 well, what degree of restrictions, if any, on the movement of people

13 between one part of the city and another?

14 A. Well, that's exactly what we didn't want. First of all, that is

15 impossible. If everybody is satisfied in the city of Sarajevo throughout

16 the territory, if everybody stayed where they were, there are no

17 boundaries. There is normal communication. Communication is normal now,

18 too, except that people are not where they were. I mean, Serbs are not

19 where they were before. But the point was that now you should have

20 certain autonomy in decision-making in an area that you're interested in.

21 And of course -- well, there's a proposal here, a proposal in terms of

22 what we wanted exactly. That proposal was in New York -- or, rather, in

23 Dayton, that the city would have a government of its own, that there would

24 be several municipalities, that there would be a proper transformation.

25 We always wanted the entire city of Sarajevo to have its own government,

1 because there are many things that are common things. There is a tram

2 that goes through four municipalities. There is a bus that goes through

3 four municipalities. It would be insane if somebody wanted to do all of

4 that separately.

5 For an individual citizen, the municipality is the government.

6 That's where you get a permit to build a house. That's where you regulate

7 waterworks, electricity, and so on, and that is what people were lacking

8 and that's what they said. Why did they have to go to the centre for all

9 of this? Can something not be built here where we are? That's what

10 Mr. Krsman told you.

11 Here's Zabrdje, right here. It is more beautiful than Paris,

12 Madrid, or The Hague, and they wanted to make a dump there, and indeed

13 this is where they built the city dump. I was in the socialist alliance

14 of working people and they wanted to build a cemetery there and I did my

15 best to prevent moving that cemetery there. And why? Because they are

16 reaching decisions at the level of the entire city and they don't care

17 about our neighbourhood. They later moved it ten kilometres away into a

18 wasteland where there is no one anyway, but first they wanted to build it

19 there.

20 When my house was discussed, for example, the Krajisnik family was

21 there for 300 years. My house was built as a temporary house. I couldn't

22 even build a -- I couldn't even get a credit. And it was only with this

23 Mr. Hadzic I started this procedure for legalising it. And on the other

24 side there were these big neighbourhoods that were being built without any

25 permits at all.

1 I'm not -- I don't want to offend any ethnic group, but you have

2 lived there since time immemorial and they don't care about you. They

3 want to build a city dump there. They want to have a cemetery there, and

4 so on and so forth. That's why they were saying I was the greatest

5 protector of Sarajevo. Let anybody show me any proposal where I said that

6 I wanted a division of Sarajevo. This is all wrong. It was supposed to

7 be a single city. What was suggested was not good. This Rajlovac after

8 the Second World War was a municipality. It was a thriving municipality

9 at the time, and then it was abolished, and then it was nothing.

10 I'm sorry, I think I'm being very emotional when I'm saying all of

11 this. Of course I know what Zabrdje is and what these other three cities

12 are, on the other hand.

13 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I want to try to get to the -- the heart of what

14 was involved in a practical sense in this temporary division. And the way

15 I invite you to explain it is this: If the temporary division of Sarajevo

16 came about in the ways that you were discussing with Mr. Izetbegovic, what

17 would have been the essential differences between the way that people then

18 lived and worked and the city went about its business under that temporary

19 division as compared with the way it had all happened before this conflict

20 even broke out?

21 A. I lived in one municipality, and I worked in another municipality,

22 and that's the way it would have been even after that. But I would

23 resolve all the issues I care about in my own neighbourhood, in my own

24 municipality. I would not allow the city dump to be there. I would

25 perhaps have a different kind of factory there.

1 I went to university right here in the centre of Sarajevo. This

2 is where my university was. Every day I took the train or bus and went

3 there. I love that city. And after all, if you want to be a civilised

4 man, you cannot meet all your needs in a village. You need a theatre.

5 You need a football stadium. All of that was in the urban area, and all

6 of that was in Muslim hands at the time. And after all -- well, it

7 doesn't matter. There are some Serbs there too. And quite simply that

8 would not have been a problem. The problem was that all the surrounding

9 neighbourhoods were discriminated against, on the outskirts.

10 Q. Under the temporary division that was under discussion,

11 Mr. Krajisnik, was it contemplated that there would be any sort of

12 checkpoints, anybody manning or monitoring any lines between different

13 areas of Sarajevo?

14 A. Our objective was to eliminate precisely that kind of thing, quite

15 simply to say, See, we've reached an agreement. Now you know where the

16 municipality boundaries are, the temporary boundaries or whatever. So

17 simply to bring the war to an end in that way. It was only in wartime

18 that there were these checkpoints and some kind of armed units. But in

19 the future, I think that there is no town where there are checkpoints

20 between municipalities.

21 I was in Geneva, and over there I saw that even though there are

22 two different states there, there is nothing very formal about it. Even

23 half of the airport is in Switzerland and the other half in France, and

24 nobody's bothered by that.

25 I'm sorry that I'm talking about all of these things now.

1 I repeat, we accepted Bosnia-Herzegovina as an internationally

2 recognised state with a seat in the UN. There can be no internal

3 boundaries. How can we divide Sarajevo if Bosnia is not being divided, if

4 this is a single international subject with its own internationally

5 recognised borders?

6 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, bearing in mind that Geneva hasn't for a very long

7 time as far as I'm aware emerged from a violent civil conflict, so that --

8 that analogy to some extent might be put on one side.

9 In the immediate future, if you did reach a temporary division by

10 way of solution [sic], did you have in mind that Sarajevo could return

11 more or less immediately to the same way of life that it had enjoyed

12 before any of this conflict emerged?

13 A. You are quite right. The only unresolved question in this map was

14 Sarajevo. Look at the Cutileiro map. And that is why I proposed the

15 following: Let us work out a temporary solution, and then let's sit down

16 and bring this conference to an end slowly but steadily.

17 I saw that there was a lack of goodwill, and the Cutileiro Plan

18 was given up on. Perhaps it was this group around Mr. Izetbegovic that

19 influenced him to reject this proposal that had initially been adopted,

20 the proposal made by Mr. Kecmanovic.

21 I don't know how Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Koljevic reacted at the

22 time, but nothing would have changed. We have would have just had peace.

23 I'm confident of that.

24 Q. Did you discuss at the meeting with Mr. Izetbegovic the -- the

25 conflict in the rest of Bosnia and Herzegovina outside Sarajevo?

1 A. Well, perhaps by way of introduction we said that everything

2 should be done in order to have peace. The meeting was not a very long

3 one, so it's not that we could discuss Derventa and, I don't know, other

4 towns, apart from that subject that we were discussing. I'm not sure that

5 we didn't even mention anything else. I don't know. I don't think we

6 discussed anything broader. The curfew was almost there, so I had to

7 leave.

8 Q. Did you, and I mean you singular, Mr. Krajisnik, for the purpose

9 of this question, did you consider that if there could be a temporary

10 solution to stop the fighting in Sarajevo that there would also be rapidly

11 an end to the conflict in the rest of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

12 A. If I did not think that, I would not have risked going into

13 Sarajevo where I could have been killed, where there was shooting. I was

14 deeply convinced that if we met up and if we found a solution it paid off

15 to run the risk of going into Sarajevo. There was shooting there, and

16 you're just taking a car and going into town.

17 I was fully confident. I said I was going there, and I believe

18 that things would be worked out, because after all, we all have families.

19 It's a terrible thing when a war starts. Later on you sort of get used to

20 it, but at the very outset you hope that you can somehow end it and you

21 hope that it will be over any minute.

22 Q. What was your awareness at the time of your meeting with

23 Mr. Izetbegovic of the degree of violent conflict in other parts of Bosnia

24 and Herzegovina?

25 A. I had very little information in Zabrdje in terms of what was

1 going on elsewhere. There were so many problems in Sarajevo that perhaps

2 I focused on that, receiving information about that, although I did not

3 have sufficient information about that either.

4 As for what was going on elsewhere, especially, for example, what

5 a witness said here, he talked about what was going on in Zvornik, I

6 absolutely did not attend that meeting. I didn't know about that. I'm

7 saying by way of an illustration, now, whether he talked to somebody else

8 or not I don't know, but I never saw, and I never attended that meeting,

9 and I was not informed about what was going on elsewhere.

10 Before the war I knew about the delegation that went to Bijeljina.

11 I knew about the delegation that went to Kupres. I knew about the

12 delegation that went to Brod. All of these delegations were delegations

13 of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 The only thing I knew is what I heard from them, but I could not

15 exercise any influence in that regard and I didn't know anything about

16 this in any detail. But during the war it was as if a curtain went down.

17 People are bombarding you with misinformation, and it's so hard for you to

18 tell what is true and what is not.

19 Q. Did -- did you get any ideas as to whether Mr. Izetbegovic was

20 informed about the level of armed conflict, violent conflict in other

21 parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 A. I can say neither yes or no. We didn't talk about this as far as

23 I can remember. It's not that he informed me. And I didn't really see

24 any major changes regarding him. I mean, compared to what he was like

25 before the conflict. We had a relaxed communication and perhaps even

1 friendly. At any rate, it wasn't hostile.

2 Q. Had you, in the two weeks before this meeting with

3 Mr. Izetbegovic, had you had any meeting or discussion with

4 General Kukanjac?

5 A. I did attend one meeting with Mr. Kukanjac, and an intercept was

6 played here. I don't remember in what capacity I attended that meeting,

7 but I heard a lot of proposals, I remember, and Mr. Kukanjac rejected them

8 all flat. Everybody was telling him, "You should go there now."

9 Everybody thought the Yugoslav People's Army should come in and resolve

10 all that.

11 There were all sorts of proposals, but it wasn't - how shall I

12 say? - a very serious topic. The talk was along the lines that the

13 Yugoslav People's Army should side with the Serbs and defend them. But I

14 remember Mr. Kukanjac said -- he's dead now, but I remember this. He

15 said, "I'm here now, and as long as I live, I will treat all sides

16 equally." He was completely neutral, and had he stayed on, that's how he

17 would have acted.

18 I did attend that one meeting. There was some local people there,

19 local representatives. I can't remember everything they were saying, but

20 in fact it was one intercept that I heard here that reminded me about

21 this. None of those proposals came to pass eventually. But Mr. Kukanjac

22 was a realistic man, and he didn't treat them very seriously. He, for his

23 part, knew that they were wrong in thinking that the war was something

24 less than serious and that everything can be dealt with easily as they

25 thought.

1 MR. STEWART: Excuse me one moment, Your Honour.

2 Your Honour, it appears that something hasn't come through in the

3 translation. Mr. Sladojevic tells me there was a reference to a column of

4 soldiers.

5 Q. Did your answer include some reference to what happened to a

6 column of soldiers, Mr. Krajisnik?

7 A. Yes. When I was talking about the neutrality of Mr. Kukanjac, I

8 said that he treated all sides equally, Muslims and Serbs. And he would

9 certainly have kept equal distance from both sides to the end if the

10 Muslims hadn't attacked a column of his soldiers. But after that, they

11 replaced him.

12 I was saying that all the time he kept trying to find a solution

13 and to remain neutral. He's dead now, but I'm talking the way it was.

14 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I think Your Honour indicated that you

15 wanted to take the break around this time.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I said that if you would need to deal with certain

17 matters that it was -- became urgent we would have an early --

18 MR. STEWART: Actually, Your Honour, we're fairly near the break,

19 Your Honour. Sometimes if we're trying to do a filing and that being

20 4.00, sometimes it's helpful to break a few minutes earlier and then we

21 can get that done.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll have a break until ten minutes past four.

23 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

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6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ORIE: And the first thing I announce for the parties that

9 there's a fair chance, I'm thinking in terms of close to 90 per cent, that

10 tomorrow we'll have no third session in the afternoon but that we would

11 finish at approximately 5.30. I can't say it for sure, but most likely

12 we'll have a short day tomorrow.

13 Then, Mr. Stewart, please proceed.

14 MR. STEWART: With that heartbreaking news, Your Honour, I'll

15 proceed.

16 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, before the meeting with Mr. Izetbegovic and on that

17 same day, you had had, from your evidence -- please say if this is wrong,

18 you had had some meeting with the parties to the international

19 negotiations the members of the European Community -- that's right, isn't

20 it?

21 A. Yes, that's what I said. But I've done a bit of reviewing. I'm

22 not sure whether it was that meeting or not, but we had a meeting at

23 Ilidza with Mr. Cutileiro. I think it was on that date, but it's still a

24 long time ago. I can't be sure.

25 Q. And then is it correct -- Mr. Krajisnik, if there's some doubt

1 about these things in your recollection, then I'm quite sure the Trial

2 Chamber would like to know those doubts.

3 You had had a meeting with Mr. Tadic [sic] and Mr. Raguz, I think

4 it was, and then you went home and returned, and then you met

5 Mr. Izetbegovic, but did you have any other -- or Mr. Kecmanovic as well.

6 Did you have any other meetings on at that day with completely other

7 people than those that we've just mentioned?

8 A. Just a small correction. It's Rasim Kadic and Martin Raguz.

9 As for what you're asking me, I was at a meeting, I think, on the

10 same date, certainly with Mr. Kadic and Raguz, but it was also attended by

11 Mr. Kecmanovic and Mr. Pejanovic. It was that meeting at Ilidza.

12 Q. Did -- did you meet Mr. Prstojevic at any point on that day, with

13 or without other people?

14 A. On that day, I think, since it was at Ilidza, I believe we had

15 some sort of meeting, but it didn't focus on the upcoming meeting. As I

16 said, those people, Mr. Kecmanovic, Mr. Pejanovic, Mr. Kadic, Mr. Raguz,

17 we met, but I don't remember any meeting that was attended by

18 Mr. Prstojevic. I think he was there as a host.

19 Q. Sorry, you think that Mr. Prstojevic was there but there as a

20 host. Is that what you're saying?

21 A. I'm telling you what would have been logical, because the

22 leadership of Ilidza was there. They were present. They met us. They

23 welcomed us when we came to Ilidza. I suppose he was there. I can't

24 visualise anything any more. I can't remember the faces of that welcoming

25 party. I suppose he was there.

1 Q. So you can't remember if you had any sort of, what I call broadly,

2 a business meeting, a meeting at which you actually discussed with

3 Mr. Prstojevic and other Ilidza representatives anything that was

4 happening in Ilidza?

5 A. I remember another meeting on an another occasion, maybe a bit

6 later, when we met with the leadership of Ilidza. That meeting was

7 mentioned several times here in the courtroom with different views

8 expressed about it. But as for that day when those people were there, I

9 don't think we held a meeting with them, because I went home, then I

10 returned, then I went to Sarajevo. I don't think I attended that meeting.

11 I mean, that day when I was going to meet Mr. Izetbegovic. That's

12 the day I'm talking about.

13 Q. Well, let -- let's concentrate, then, on what you referred to a

14 moment ago as another meeting on another occasion, maybe a bit later when

15 you said, "We met with the leadership of Ilidza." First of all, who

16 is "we" who met with the Ilidza leadership?

17 A. As far as I remember, I was in Zabrdje again. There was some

18 ministers, then Mr. Koljevic and Mr. Karadzic. Maybe they even spent the

19 night at Ilidza. Maybe they were staying for a while. They invited me,

20 so I came to the meeting. And we had some sort of meeting without an

21 agenda where everybody attended, the ministers, the leadership of Ilidza,

22 maybe some other people too. That's the kind of meeting I mean. And the

23 agenda was open-ended. We just discussed whatever came up.

24 Q. First of all, if we can try to place it, Mr. Krajisnik. You've

25 said you thought that it was after the -- "maybe a bit later" was your

1 phrase. Maybe a bit later than the day of the meeting with

2 Mr. Izetbegovic. Can you remember whether if this meeting with the Ilidza

3 leadership was before or after you had moved to Pale?

4 A. No. That's not what I said.

5 Q. Sorry, what's not what you said?

6 A. I didn't say it was later relative to that meeting. I meant after

7 that day, after the day of the meeting with Mr. Izetbegovic, maybe two or

8 three days later. So it was not on the same day. It was maybe a couple

9 of days later that we have -- that we had this meeting with the leadership

10 of Ilidzas [as interpreted].

11 Q. There must have been the -- the wrong words must have got picked

12 up. There's been a mistranslation there, Mr. Krajisnik. I think I see

13 how it may have happened.

14 No, I wasn't saying -- I can see how it happened. I said maybe a

15 bit later than the day. That might have been heard a bit later on the

16 day. I wasn't suggesting it was the same day. I was simply picking up

17 your answer that you said it was maybe a bit later than the Izetbegovic

18 meeting, and I was therefore asking you if you were able to tell the Trial

19 Chamber whether it was before or after you moved to Pale.

20 A. Well, I'm really sorry. I only corrected it because I don't

21 anything wrong to be picked up and to remain on the transcript.

22 What I remember is this: I was at Pale on one day. I can explain

23 for what reason. And then I returned to Zabrdje. I don't know how long

24 after that I went to Pale again to remain, but from the records I've seen

25 here, I know that I attended a session on the 15th of April, and on the

1 17th of April Mr. Karadzic wrote a letter whereby he withdrew all

2 personnel. So I didn't resign on that day. I returned.

3 When I went back again to Pale from Zabrdje, I don't know any

4 more. I think quite a while later, maybe five, six, ten days later.

5 Whatever I say now may turn out to be wrong. But to that meeting at

6 Ilidza I came from Zabrdje. I was at Zabrdje at the time, not at Pale.

7 As far as I remember.

8 I'm really sorry. I am not precise, and I don't want anyone to --

9 to hold me to any one word I say, any one date. All I know is -- for

10 certain is that I went to Pale -- I went from Zabrdje, not Pale.

11 Q. Was the meeting with the Ilidza leadership set up at their

12 initiative or at the initiative of Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Koljevic, you, or one

13 of your colleagues?

14 A. First of all, it wasn't at my initiative, for sure. And second,

15 as I said, Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Koljevic, and the ministers were there

16 staying at Ilidza temporarily, and I got a message from them that I should

17 come and talk to them. Since the hosts were there, we talked in their

18 presence, and we mainly discussed subjects that were of interest to them.

19 It was some sort of roundtable where everybody was free to take the floor,

20 listen, ask questions, et cetera.

21 Q. And the ministers you said who were staying at Ilidza temporarily,

22 who were they? Which ministers?

23 A. I don't remember all of them, but I know there was late Momcilo

24 Pejic. I think Bozidar Antic was there. I'm not sure about anyone else,

25 but there were more of them. I remember Pejic, very reasonable,

1 down-to-earth man, an economist, a colleague of mine. I heard him speak.

2 That's why I remember him being there. He was a minister in the

3 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

4 Q. And who was -- apart from Mr. Prstojevic, who was there as one of

5 the representatives of Ilidza?

6 A. As far as I remember, there was Mr. Radoslav Unkovic, whose name

7 we read in the papers we reviewed several times. There was MP Ljubo

8 Bosiljcic, who is a native of that area, and I don't remember the others.

9 I think Mr. Kezunovic was there. He was then president of the Executive

10 Council or maybe the municipality. I don't know any more. I'm sure about

11 the three -- the first three, whereas my memory about -- my memory of

12 Mr. Kezunovic is a bit vague.

13 Q. Mr. Prstojevic was in charge as far as the Ilidza group were

14 concerned, was he?

15 A. I don't know what his position was at the time. I think that he

16 was the one who was in charge. Now, was he president of the or of the

17 Crisis Staff, but he was - how should I put this? - he was the man at the

18 top. The man who represented the Assembly of Ilidza.

19 Q. No, you said that you mainly discussed subjects that were of

20 interest to them. What were the subjects that were of interest to them?

21 A. I have to be quite honest. If I were to say everything I

22 remembered, well, I remember very few things on my own. But having heard

23 things here and having listened to the intercepts, I have a more complete

24 picture. So I'm afraid I'm going to confuse the two a bit. However, the

25 basic point is that the discussion focused on the situation as it was in

1 Ilidza. There was a great deal of anxiety there. People wanted to know

2 what these negotiations meant, these foreigners coming in and so on. This

3 is a reference to international representatives. Also, what our position

4 was with regard to some other matters, how far the negotiations have

5 progressed. Is there a solution that we can hope for, and so on. Of

6 course, there were all sorts of proposals, and people said things

7 autonomously in discussions. It wasn't that there was a cohesive policy.

8 Everybody spoke freely and said what they thought. Mr. Karadzic and

9 Mr. Koljevic tried to present the international role and position as they

10 were. So that was the problem.

11 There was another problem too. One hundred metres away from the

12 place where we were, were the separation lines between us and the Muslims,

13 and there was a major attack that had been launched. A lot of people had

14 lost their lives. So those were problems that were discussed too.

15 I really cannot recall all details. I've been filling these voids

16 in my memory, and that was the only thing I could do.

17 Q. The major attack that had been launched, that was an attack by

18 whom upon whom?

19 A. There was a major attack on Ilidza by the Muslim forces. I can

20 not put this into a time frame, if I can put it that way. But what I know

21 is that there was a representative of the European Community, Mr. Doyle, I

22 think his name was, and then Mr. MacKenzie was there, and then Mrs.

23 Plavsic had a role to play as well. Then they were getting the dead out

24 as well. All of this happened in Ilidza.

25 Now, when all of this happened, I cannot say. I'm afraid I'll

1 make a mistake. The Muslims attacked from Hrasnica, right here. From

2 that area. That's are the attack against Ilidza was launched. This is

3 Ilidza.

4 Q. And, Mr. Krajisnik, a major attack. What was reported to you to

5 indicate what was the size and severity of that attack?

6 A. Well, that was the beginning of the war, it was quite terrible.

7 As I said a few moments ago, when a war starts then even small things

8 become big. Later on you get used to it.

9 Quite simply, people organise themselves at their own initiative,

10 and there was this small conflict with the representatives of the UN.

11 They asked them to help them get the dead out and get the prisoners out.

12 Chaos prevailed. Confusion prevailed. I heard all of that from a

13 distance.

14 Later on, I learned more things through different conversations,

15 but this was an ugly baptism of fire if I can put it that way and things

16 looked terrible at that moment.

17 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, perhaps I should make it clear. It's precisely

18 because of what you said in your last answer that when a war starts small

19 things become big it's because of the nature of these things that I'm

20 inviting you to become more specific. Was it from what you understood was

21 it a dozen men, let's assume it was men, was it hundred -- I'm asking for

22 some indication of what you understood at the time.

23 A. I'm afraid that we've digressed from your main question, the one

24 that I gave an answer to. I talked about the meeting I attended and I

25 said that there were different topics discussed. I do not remember all

1 the topics. Then I mentioned that there was a war going on near the

2 separation lines, and then I mentioned this unfortunate incident. Perhaps

3 it occurred even after this meeting, because I do not recall the entire

4 content.

5 It was an open-ended agenda, as I said, but if you wanted me to

6 talk about this incident without relating it to this meeting, then I'll

7 try to explain everything I know to you.

8 As far as I can remember, several Serbs were killed. Some were

9 taken prisoner. Citizens were upset. None of us, Mr. Karadzic,

10 Mr. Koljevic, or I, were there. Mrs. Plavsic was there from among the

11 leadership because she was in Sarajevo. Then there were representatives

12 of the UN too. That is to say UNPROFOR and the European Community. I

13 know that Mr. Doyle was the representative and mediator.

14 The other day on television I saw him and I heard him reminiscing

15 about this, and that is how I remember more too. But speaking apart from

16 this meeting, this incident was quite shocking. Quite simply, you now see

17 what you only read about before. You see dead people. It's not a movie.

18 It's not that there's red paint thrown around and then these people

19 actually get up later. It was terrible for the area of Ilidza, and it was

20 people from Hrasnica and Sokolovica Kolonija who attacked. It was these

21 Muslim units from there that attacked Ilidza. Ilidza was in Serb hands.

22 I mean the centre of Ilidza, although that's a smaller part of the

23 municipality of Ilidza.

24 Q. Did I imagine it or did I hear you mention Hajat in the course of

25 that answer?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I imagined it or you did?

3 A. That's my favourite TV station Hajat. They had an interview with

4 Mr. Dole a few days ago, and he was reminiscing about this incident when

5 he was there with Mrs. Plavsic trying to deal with this Muslim attack

6 against Ilidza. That's the only TV station from Bosnia and Herzegovina

7 that I can watch here.

8 Q. The main reason I mentioned it Your Honours, is it doesn't appear

9 on the transcript so I wonder Mr. Krajisnik, again, possibly if you are

10 going a little quickly if things are getting missed.

11 Did the -- did the Ilidza leadership ask for any assistance, any

12 help from you and your colleagues?

13 A. If I were to give a literal answer, there were no meetings held

14 with representatives of any municipality without them having asked for

15 help. They think that you're a magician who can solve all their problems.

16 Especially here in Ilidza. People were frightened. And then it was a

17 welcome opportunity for them when the leadership would come and then they

18 would tell them about all their problems. Of course, since there was a

19 war going on, they did not understand who was in charge of what. They are

20 telling everybody everything. We need soldiers. We need this. We need

21 that. All of this is quite normal in a war.

22 First, you have to calm them down. You shouldn't refuse them.

23 You should bear in mind their emotions, but you really have nothing that

24 you can do in order to resolve their problems. Believe me, I was in that

25 kind of situation hundreds of times. I didn't say, "That is not my line

1 of work." I would try to listen and understand, and then the person

2 talking to me would go away believing I was the right person to talk to.

3 That's simply the way it was. Everybody from every municipality, when

4 they felt threatened -- well, there are soldiers there and then there is

5 information that there is a countless number of Muslims who are going to

6 wipe them out, and so on and so forth.

7 The situation was terrible. It was terrible listening to all of

8 that. And you simply had no way of helping, no possibility of helping.

9 You are talking to them in a political way. You are listening to what

10 they have to say. You are making suggestions and so on.

11 Q. The -- the Muslim forces, you've said, Mr. Krajisnik, you don't

12 know whether it was before or after this meeting, but when you did receive

13 information about this Muslim attack against Ilidza, did you receive

14 information about the identity of -- I don't mean the names of the

15 individual men, but the identity of those Muslim forces?

16 A. I have to be quite honest. I don't understand. For us, these

17 were the Muslim armed forces. When I say that, I mean I didn't go into

18 whether they were paramilitaries or not. It was the Muslims, the Serbs,

19 and the Croats, and that was my understanding of it.

20 In a war, all legal norms are forgotten. There is an armed

21 Muslim, an armed Serb, an armed Croat. There were armed units, on the one

22 hand and -- on one side and the other side. At that time, the Yugoslav

23 People's Army was in existence, but -- how put I put this? This was a

24 local conflict. We all call them the Green Berets, the Patriotic League,

25 and so on and so forth, and that didn't have to be the case. Very soon

1 they brought those units under the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So for us

2 that was the Muslim side, the Muslim armed units and so on. I do not

3 remember that we used any derogatory terms for them as they did for us,

4 but at any rate it was Serbs, Croats, Muslims.

5 Q. When you met the Ilidza leadership, were you -- did you come away

6 from that meeting with any clear picture as to the state of organisation

7 of any armed forces on the Serb side in Ilidza?

8 A. When we were at that meeting with the leadership of Ilidza, most

9 of what was going on was academic and theoretical debates. Everybody had

10 proposals of different kinds. I didn't see a single soldier. They were

11 probably out there at the line.

12 What I heard from them is what my knowledge was. Perhaps I saw

13 someone walking there, but they were at the line 100 metres away, but I

14 did not see them. But we were that close.

15 Well, what I remember is that individuals said they can't do

16 anything to us, and that's what optimists were saying, but then pessimists

17 said, no, they're wrong. It's people from Sandzak and there's three times

18 more them. So you listen to different proposals and different

19 contributions to the discussion. It's not that you can be an arbiter of

20 any kind and you cannot get to the actual truth.

21 The Serb side had some kind of Territorial Defence, and they said

22 they would do everything they can to defend their own ethnic areas, which

23 was the Serb area, yes. And on the other side were the areas where the

24 Muslims were a majority.

25 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, the -- we don't need all to look at it, perhaps,

1 but on the -- not your favourite map, but on P211, based on the 1991

2 census, Ilidza municipality as a whole is shown with a relative majority

3 Muslims 43 per cent and Serbs 37 per cent. Is that consistent with your

4 understanding of the position in Ilidza at that time?

5 A. It is not consistent. Now I'm going to explain this to you. The

6 municipality of Ilidza, as opposed to other municipalities -- well, the

7 urban part of Ilidza was Serb, whereas this place, Hrasnica and Sokolovic,

8 Kolonija, these are new neighbourhoods. There were a lot of buildings

9 built without permits too. That is where Muslims moved in, especially

10 from Sandzak. That is to say from Serbia and Montenegro, so a different

11 region altogether.

12 Now, there was a census in 1991, and it was never verified. And

13 in 1990, the elections were held, and all citizens of Ilidza voted for one

14 MP in the Council of Municipalities, and the Serb candidate won

15 absolutely. In Ilidza there were many more Serbs at the time than

16 Muslims, so probably during the census there were people there who had

17 come temporarily and registered there, Muslims, that is, and that's why

18 there were more of them. But there were more Serbs there, actually,

19 because the Serbs voted for the Serb MP and the Muslims voted for the

20 Muslim candidate. But Ljubo Bosiljcic won.

21 Before that Ilidza was considered a Serb municipality, but this

22 census in 1991 was a highly objectionable one. Apparently many ballots

23 were found that had not been used at all, and what was proclaimed was that

24 in the entire municipality there were more Muslims than Serbs. That's it.

25 That is why I'm saying that one has to understand by way of an

1 analysis what the municipality of Ilidza is like.

2 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I wonder, could you be given the book of maps that

3 we have. It's P527. And go to page 28.

4 That is -- that's a map of -- it's a fairly simple one of Ilidza.

5 Do you see that? And the legend, it shows built-up areas. It's -- well,

6 yes. It shows built-up areas in a sort of yellow colour. In fact, the

7 yellow-shaded areas go outside the boundaries of Ilidza, don't they, on

8 that page?

9 A. All of this is Ilidza as far as I can see over here. I don't know

10 what this is. No. Not this. Not this. This is not Ilidza. No. Sorry.

11 Sorry. This is a mistake. Stup and all of this out here is Ilidza. And

12 over here, that should be Novi Grad, because Nedzarici is in Novi Grad.

13 So the border should be somewhere around here. All of this up here is

14 Ilidza.

15 Q. I think perhaps to clarify, Mr. Krajisnik, it's maybe not the most

16 perfect map in the world. The boundary, and they are boundary lines

17 aren't they the boundaries between those municipalities are those rather

18 thin black lines on this map?

19 A. No. This is Ilidza, too, this up here, Kasindol and Ilidza -- no.

20 Yes. Yes. You see this? This is a blue line, and all of this is Ilidza.

21 Right. You're right.

22 Q. All right.

23 A. Dogladi.

24 Q. Did you --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just seek one clarification? Mr. Krajisnik

1 said that Nedzarici is in Novo Sarajevo. It clearly, on this map, is in

2 Ilidza.

3 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour is absolutely right.

4 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, do you see the -- His Honour is pointing out that

5 Nedzarici, it's actually just to the west of the black line which

6 apparently marks the boundary between Ilidza and the adjoining

7 municipality of Novo Sarajevo.

8 A. This is the municipality that Nedzarici belongs to. Nedzarici

9 does not belong to Ilidza. I don't know whether this is done very

10 precisely, but Nedzarici is Novi Grad, not Novo Sarajevo. It was my

11 municipality.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I misspoke. Novi Grad. But on this map it

13 appears to be -- it appears to be part of Ilidza. But perhaps that's not

14 a vital matter, but just to be alert on --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can you see this red

16 point here? That's Nedzarici, and it's outside.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I tend to disagree with you, Mr. Krajisnik. What I

18 see is that the thin black lines are representing the boundaries of the

19 municipalities, and I see that just before Nedzarici the thin black line

20 turns relatively sharp east, and then soon after that turns north and west

21 again and then continues up to where it comes to Bare. It might not be of

22 major importance, but let's be alert on any possible mistakes on the exact

23 position of the -- of the boundaries of the municipality.

24 MR. STEWART:

25 Q. But, Mr. Krajisnik, I've got to say as far as the positions on the

1 map is concerned, with respect, I'm a hundred per cent with His Honour on

2 where it is in relation to boundary, but you are saying, Mr. Krajisnik,

3 are you, from your local knowledge, you're saying that you are absolutely

4 sure that Nedzarici was in fact in the municipality of Novi Grad?

5 A. I have to say that I agree with the Presiding Judge too. That's

6 exactly what it looks like.

7 Q. Yes, by the positioning on the map. But the second bit --

8 Mr. Krajisnik, forget for a moment about lines on maps. You lived there

9 at the time, was Nedzarici in Novi Grad or was it in Ilidza? Do you know?

10 A. Well, I have to be clear: All my knowledge was that Nedzarici is

11 in Novi Grad. However, the Presiding Judge is right here; the line looks

12 as if it were on Ilidza. But all my knowledge is that Nedzarici was in

13 Novi Grad, which was my municipality. Possibly the boundary was somewhere

14 nearby. I don't know.

15 Q. Mr. Krajisnik --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on --

17 MR. STEWART: Indeed.

18 Q. Yes. Mr. Krajisnik, at these discussions or at this meeting that

19 you had with the Ilidza leadership, was there any discussion about members

20 of any ethnic group having to leave the municipality of Ilidza?

21 A. No, but before that everybody fled to their own side, if I can put

22 it that way. If they could. Once the problem broke out, many Serbs

23 remained out there in Sokolovic or Kolonija. In this area here. And

24 probably some Muslims remained in Ilidza. But most people separated like

25 wine and water. People fled from that war.

1 I don't know whether any one of them said something like that, but

2 I know that the policy was to find a political solution. I don't know

3 whether anybody mentioned at that time that somebody was supposed to be

4 expelled, thrown out. I'm sure that no one said any such thing. Quite

5 simply, Muslims fled towards Hrasnica and Serbs towards Ilidza. That's

6 what I remember.

7 This is the area of Kotorac, I think, and Kasindol, and then you'd

8 hear telephone conversations. Muslims were here, I don't know in which

9 area -- that's it, I think. That's on the outskirts of Ilidza. The

10 telephone conversations that we had the opportunity of hearing here,

11 actually, but in the centre of Ilidza, no, absolutely not. And no one had

12 instructions to do any such thing either.

13 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, could you just please make clear, when you said in

14 that answer that Muslims fled towards Hrasnica, by reference to a map, if

15 you need to, which -- which direction is that and where were they going?

16 A. This is the centre of Ilidza. This is Hrasnica.

17 Q. Yes, I can see it on the map.

18 MR. STEWART: On that map on page 28, Your Honours, it's almost

19 right in the middle of the page, just to the bottom of the very

20 southern-most yellow-shaded area, if Your Honours see that. There are two

21 places; Lasica and Hrasnica. I've just found it, Your Honour.

22 Q. But that's where we're talking about, aren't we, Mr. Krajisnik?

23 So you're saying that Muslims fled to Hrasnica which was itself in the

24 municipality of Ilidza?

25 A. Yes. Yes. Correct. It's difficult to orient oneself on this map

1 but I'll try to explain.

2 This is downtown Ilidza, the centre of Ilidza, and the demarcation

3 line was around here. So if some Muslims had lived there, they ran away

4 to this side. Those Serbs who managed, ran across to the other side.

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... anything else. Just show us

6 the demarcation line again, please. I was myself looking at something

7 else.

8 A. You see this is the centre of Ilidza. From that centre, the

9 demarcation line was a hundred metres away. All this green area here is

10 Serb land. Protected areas. That's why they were painted green.

11 So Muslims ran to Hrasnica, which was predominantly - maybe 90 per

12 cent - Muslim. There are lots of Serbs here, like in Glogovina and

13 Stojcevac, but Hrasnica was larger built-up area, a Muslim area, and the

14 Muslims ran up and the demarcation line was maybe just a hundred metres

15 away from the centre of Ilidza. This is Stojcevac. UN headquarters used

16 to be there but it was turned over to the Muslims and then this became the

17 boundary line all the way to the centre of Ilidza.

18 Q. You're saying the demarcation line was already there on the ground

19 at the time that you were having this meeting with Mr. Prstojevic and his

20 colleagues, are you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And was there -- it could be again that there was some ambiguity

23 introduced into the question in the way you heard it. Was this question

24 of fleeing of Muslims, broadly to the south as you've described it, and

25 Serbs broadly towards the town of Ilidza, was that discussed at that

1 meeting?

2 A. I don't remember, but I don't rule out the possibility that we

3 discussed it. However, it wasn't the main topic. I cannot say in the

4 affirmative that we discussed the subject of fleeing. We talked about the

5 war. Our people were on one side, their people were on the other side.

6 We didn't know how many Serbs or Muslims were in Ilidza. There were both

7 ethnic communities there.

8 Q. Was there any discussion about any plans or prospective attempts

9 to gain territory south of the demarcation line?

10 A. May I now? At that meeting -- actually, whatever I now say about

11 that meeting would be pure improvisation, but I'm trying to help. At that

12 time, we didn't really know -- in fact, we knew whose ethnic area they

13 were, but the war was beginning, and there must have been some local

14 demands to liberate certain neighbourhoods from that or the other side,

15 depending on who lived there. But at that meeting, lots of topics of all

16 kinds were discussed. I forgot most of them. It wasn't a serious

17 meeting, it was just talking, chatting, an exchange of information, but

18 there was no serious briefing or preparation of plans, especially because

19 this leadership of Ilidza didn't seem to think they needed to listen to

20 anyone. They seemed intent on doing whatever suited them. And

21 Mr. Prstojevic himself was known as a stubborn, self-willed person. He

22 was a very conscientious worker, a hard worker, but he liked to do

23 everything himself, on his own, and he wasn't easily put under control,

24 nor did anyone try.

25 Q. You've said they seemed intent on doing whatever suited them. Did

1 it appear -- was anything that they were apparently intending to do

2 something of which you disapproved?

3 A. Your questions sound very simple, but actually it's very hard to

4 answer them. I can only say again that I have a certain experience that I

5 can tell you about and that applied from that time. Every municipality,

6 including the municipality of Ilidza, whenever they were able to deal with

7 something themselves did not report anything or ask anybody for help.

8 Only if they needed assistance did they inform somebody else about their

9 problems. But if they had an affair to deal with, good or bad, and they

10 were able to deal with it themselves, they did.

11 I'm not going to say that the autonomy of municipalities was

12 absolute, but it was great. The system that we had in Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina fell apart, and new times began. Some new people appeared on

14 the scene, and they dealt with problems as best they knew how.

15 I only received people who needed some sort of help or

16 intervention, but they never asked for advice. They never said, "Look, we

17 are dealing with this or that. What do you think about it?" This

18 leadership thought about themselves as mature, and indeed they were, and

19 they dealt with most of their problems themselves. They were, among other

20 things, a wealthy area, so they did not need assistance that much. They

21 rarely addressed the government for help.

22 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, when Mr. Kecmanovic gave evidence in this case he

23 described meetings at which you, whoever else was present, at which you

24 and he and Mr. Pejanovic were present. Was Mr. Kecmanovic correct in

25 saying that there were, in the course of April and May, whenever precisely

1 the meetings took place, that there were two meetings at which you and he

2 and Mr. Pejanovic were present? Is that your recollection?

3 A. Yes. Yes. There were two different meetings at two different

4 locations.

5 Q. And the first meeting, without worrying for the moment,

6 Mr. Krajisnik, about when exactly they were, at which location was the

7 first meeting? Being as precise as you can, please.

8 A. Well, I described that meeting at Ilidza. As for the other

9 meeting, I can show you the location that the three of us visited.

10 Q. Did the -- the Ilidza meeting, it was in a hotel, was it,

11 Mr. Krajisnik? And if so, can you be specific?

12 A. Yes, yes, yes.

13 Q. Which hotel, so we have that clear from you? Do you remember

14 which hotel?

15 A. He was wrong about that. The hotel is called this is half Bosnia

16 and half Serbia. There were two wings to it. One is called Bosna, and

17 the other is called Serbia. He said that it was at the Terme Hotel, but

18 it was not. It was at this other hotel, half of which was Bosnia, half

19 was Serbia.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. And there was another hotel across the road called Herzegovina.

22 Q. So according to you, Mr. Kecmanovic got the hotel wrong. And then

23 the second of the meetings that was attended by --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, may I just interrupt.

25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Just looking at the clock and having arrived at a

2 hotel, should we not take a break?

3 MR. STEWART: It's a good place and time to do it, Your Honour,

4 certainly.

5 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at ten minutes to six.

6 --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, please proceed.

9 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, have you placed the first of those meetings at the

11 Srbija Hotel or Bitava [phoen] Hotel in Ilidza, what -- what do you recall

12 as the subject of discussion between -- well, first of all -- I beg your

13 pardon. There was Mr. Kecmanovic, Mr. Pejanovic, and you. Was anybody

14 else present at the meeting with you?

15 A. Yes. Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Koljevic. I don't know if anybody else

16 was there, but the two of them certainly were.

17 Q. Throughout the meeting?

18 A. I think so. Yes, absolutely, throughout the meeting.

19 Q. And can you recall what was the topic or what were the topics of

20 discussion?

21 A. There were two delegations there that day. They had come to

22 inform themselves and to be mediators between the warring parties, to help

23 organise a meeting, contact, in order to find a solution that would stop

24 the war.

25 Q. Yes, Mr. Krajisnik, that -- my question is at the meeting, leaving

1 aside the two delegations, at the meeting among you, Mr. Karadzic,

2 Koljevic, Kecmanovic, and Mr. Pejanovic, what was the subject at that

3 meeting?

4 A. The topic for that meeting -- in fact, the purpose of that meeting

5 was that they had come to talk to us to hear what our position was so that

6 we could find a solution that would stop the war, and they suggested that

7 a meeting should be held. That indeed later happened. Al meeting where

8 they would mediate with the other side so that the other side accepts to

9 attend that meeting at a location to be agreed. Maybe there were other

10 topics, but I remember only that one.

11 Q. And did you inform them as to your position in relation to finding

12 a solution that would stop the war?

13 A. I don't know whether we actually said it to them, but the

14 conversation focused on finding the relevant -- the competent people to

15 meet with so that we can talk to the leadership in Sarajevo later to try

16 to stop the war together with them. Goodwill was expressed to them. They

17 wanted to be mediators so that we could meet and find a solution.

18 I cannot be precise as to whether there were any proposals made.

19 There may have been, but I don't want to speculate now.

20 Q. Did you discuss the -- any proposal for the division of Sarajevo?

21 A. I have to emphasise that Sarajevo was indeed the topic of

22 discussion, but it was foremost in the minds of the three of us that we

23 cannot agree to any option whereby Sarajevo would end up in their Muslim

24 hands. We wanted to make a point that Serbs have as much of a right to

25 Sarajevo as the Muslims do.

1 It has become a rule of sorts to think of Zagreb as a Croat

2 centre, Belgrade as the Serb centre, Sarajevo as the Muslim centre, but we

3 thought we wanted to make a point that nobody has a right to isolate us

4 out of Sarajevo. It was our intention to discuss a transformation of

5 Sarajevo whereby we would have control over certain parts.

6 The answer to your question is that as far as I remember, Sarajevo

7 was discussed at the meeting.

8 Q. Were there any criticisms offered by Mr. Kecmanovic, Mr. Pejanovic

9 as to the policy and position of you and your colleagues in the SDS

10 leadership?

11 A. Certainly not then. Their only wish was to get information and to

12 mediate. They, too, advocated that the war should be stopped and a

13 solution found. I am certain that there was no resistance on their part.

14 Q. And --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one clarifying question?

16 Mr. Krajisnik, you said that it was your intention to discuss the

17 transformation of it prior to that -- you said that you "could not agree

18 to any option whereby Sarajevo would end up in their Muslim hands. We

19 wanted to make a point that Serbs have as much of a right to Sarajevo as

20 the Muslims do."

21 Now, you earlier explained to us that as a temporary solution you

22 would rather freeze the situation where, I would say the centre of the

23 city was in Muslim hands, and quite a bit to the west whereas some areas

24 around the old town were under Serbian control at that time. Would that

25 be a situation which you would consider that Sarajevo would be in the

1 Muslim hands, or would that at this time of this meeting be acceptable as

2 a solution even if it were only a temporary solution?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Stewart asked me,

4 at least that's what I understood, what our policy on Sarajevo was in

5 general, whereas you are asking me now what I talked about with

6 Mr. Izetbegovic, along what lines. The point was to stop the war and then

7 to talk about Sarajevo. And when I said that we had never accepted that

8 anybody should isolate us out of Sarajevo so that we would have no rights,

9 no control over there just because somebody things we have Belgrade and

10 Sarajevo is a purely Muslim city, that's completely separate from these

11 talks, because Sarajevo is also a Serb town. But throughout, we intended

12 to talk about Sarajevo, that it should remain one town, whereas on the

13 local level we have rights over certain parts. But if they create a town

14 where everything is ruled from the centre, then there's no chance of that.

15 Our point was to freeze things for a while so as to find a

16 solution. We did not discuss a permanent solution with Mr. Izetbegovic.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Just for purposes of what your policy was, would

18 finally a settlement on the basis of the frozen situation have been

19 acceptable to you, or did you say, "No, we were entitled to more of

20 Sarajevo as we held at that time"?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have documents about

22 what we had said to Mr. Cutileiro as to what our proposal was. When we

23 were talking about peace, we said that Sarajevo would have a small

24 extra-territorial part where the state institutions would be located.

25 Then there would be another part with mainly Muslim municipalities that

1 would be under their control, would belong to them. Like here. That's a

2 Muslim majority. And if we were to follow an ethnic principle, then the

3 Serbs would get the periphery, because you cannot take any areas where the

4 Muslims have a majority. If we were to discuss that.

5 So we said that in this part here, since Bosnia was a state that

6 we were going to accept, there should be an extra-territorial part state

7 institutions would be located such as parliament, the government, et

8 cetera. And as for the rest, we should see whether there are any

9 neighbourhoods even in the urban area where the Serbs had a majority, like

10 Pofalici.

11 We were aware, nevertheless, that this is a Muslim-majority area,

12 and we never disputed that. We didn't want to take that area away from

13 them. However, we were not even looking for a permanent solution with

14 Mr. Izetbegovic. We only discussed a temporary solution starting with

15 ending the war. And that proposal exists somewhere in writing.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So restructuring was needed for a final

17 solution, and you would have to look in more detail at what exactly would

18 be -- you mentioned Pofalici from -- Pofalici was at that time under

19 Muslim control, but you considered it should be part of the Serbian part

20 of Sarajevo.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just mentioned incidentally an

22 ethnic unit. But let me try to assist you, Your Honour. We have

23 shorthand notes from a session of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina

24 where Mr. Silajdzic describes our conversation, our talks about Sarajevo,

25 and he himself seems to be in favour of it.

1 There was no suggestion of division, because that would have been

2 impossible. How can you divide a town if you're not dividing a country?

3 Transformation is something different. And it's quite another matter that

4 the word "division" can be understood in different ways.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... what you told us

6 before. Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. And I

8 appreciate this opportunity to clarify things, because it's important that

9 they be clear.

10 MR. STEWART:

11 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you've said that they, and that's Mr. Kecmanovic

12 and Mr. Pejanovic, they, too, advocated that the war should be stopped and

13 a solution found. Did they have any ideas or suggestions of their own as

14 to where that solution might be?

15 A. I don't remember, but I know what their opinion was from before

16 the war. However, I don't remember any representations they made at that

17 meeting. I don't think, actually, they suggested anything specific. They

18 only wanted that meeting to happen.

19 Q. Did -- did they offer any criticisms of your position?

20 A. I think as far as that is concerned, how the war started in

21 Sarajevo, Mr. Karadzic was rather indignant. He said we wouldn't leave

22 Sarajevo like that. There was a fierce debate but no criticism. They

23 thought that we were against the meeting, and they were happy when we

24 accepted it. But it was quite the contrary. We wanted that meeting, too,

25 because we wanted very much to find a solution. At least I don't remember

1 any criticism, I'm sure.

2 Q. Was there discussion of what was happening in the rest of Bosnia

3 and Herzegovina outside Sarajevo?

4 A. I must say I don't remember, but I'm almost certain that we didn't

5 touch upon that topic. My answer is that I can't remember, but I don't

6 think so.

7 Q. Had you -- had you had any sort of meeting or discussion with

8 Mr. Kecmanovic and Mr. Pejanovic before this particular meeting and quite

9 recently?

10 A. Well, I already answered that I had two meetings. I think it was

11 the second one, the one that wasn't held at Ilidza. It was held later.

12 I'm certain it was held later. So I didn't have any meetings before the

13 war, I'm sure, with the two of them.

14 Q. So you hadn't seen either Mr. Kecmanovic or Mr. Pejanovic the

15 previous day?

16 A. No. No. I think there was just that one meeting. I mean at

17 Ilidza.

18 Q. And then the later meeting, then, that was in Lukavica; is that

19 right?

20 A. It was a bit further from Lukavica. Tilava, maybe, not really

21 Tilava but somewhere here. It belongs to Lukavica but it's on the

22 outskirts of Lukavica. It used to be a community club or something.

23 Q. And if you could say how much longer -- how long after the first

24 meeting that you've described at the Hotel Srbija was this other meeting?

25 A. I was already at Pale at the time. I think I had been -- I think

1 it was a month or maybe even two months later. The end of May, the end of

2 June. Around that time, but I can't be precise. We could time it

3 relative to their entry into the Presidency, but I can't remember now.

4 Q. I'll come back to that in due course, then, Mr. Krajisnik.

5 Mr. Krajisnik, did you at some time still in April but after the

6 meeting that you've just described at Hotel Srbija and after the meeting

7 with Mr. Izetbegovic have a further meeting with General Kukanjac?

8 A. I have already said that somewhere around that time I had that

9 meeting with General Kukanjac that I described attended by a group of

10 people who discussed and presented their wishes to Mr. Kukanjac, who

11 didn't take them very seriously. At least he just heard them out and

12 didn't do anything about it. I think it was around that time.

13 Q. My question was whether there was then a further meeting with --

14 with Mr. Kukanjac in the course of April.

15 A. I don't remember any other meetings with Mr. Kukanjac apart from

16 that one, although it's possible that I attended one more, but I don't

17 remember any others. There was somebody there with Mr. Kukanjac, but I

18 can't remember who.

19 Excuse me. When I was talking about the Terme Hotel, the hotel

20 Bosna and Srbija is very close to Hotel Terme, and that's probably why the

21 error occurred. Bosna and Srbija are in one and the same building.

22 Herzegovina is just across the road near a park, and Terme is just around

23 a hundred metres away. I know we were there.

24 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, in April, 1992, do you -- did you -- well, do you

25 remember the first occasion in April, 1992, when you attended any sort of

1 formal meeting in Pale?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. What would that meeting -- what was that meeting?

4 A. I was at Zabrdje, and my colleagues from Sarajevo, my former work

5 colleagues at the company where I used to work, informed me that one of

6 them was arrested, a Croat, and they asked me if I could get him released.

7 Another call came from the Muslim side. I'm not quite sure, but I'm

8 almost sure that it was Mr. Muhamed Filipovic who called. He said that

9 some of his family had been arrested somewhere, and they asked me if I

10 could help somehow. All I could do was get into a car and go to Pale. I

11 thought I could find someone and see if there was anything I could do.

12 I don't remember to whom I talked at that time. All I know is

13 that the family of Mr. Cengic had -- was released, and that former work

14 colleague of mine, Marinko Musa, was also released. That's what I managed

15 to do on that day.

16 Later on, I saw in the papers that it was on the 15th of April,

17 and I attended a meeting that was called meeting of the National Security

18 Council of the government, but actually all sorts of people were there

19 discussing all sorts of things. And that was my first trip to Pale, after

20 which I went back to Zabrdje which I spent several days, and then I went

21 to Pale for good. That's the first meeting I remember where I

22 participated in the discussion. Everybody who was there participated.

23 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'd like you to be given then, please, the minutes

24 of -- it's called the minutes of the joint meeting of the National

25 Security Council and the government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

1 Herzegovina held on 15th of April, 1992. It's P64 [Realtime transcript

2 read in error "P65"], binder 22, tab 618.

3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the ERN number that I have is 01245291.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, on the transcript it appears P65. I

5 heard you saying P64. And on your list it appears as P64A.

6 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry, I should have said -- I've made this

7 mistake. It should be P64 A, Your Honour's quite right. 64A, binder 22,

8 tab 618. It's also in P65, binder 11, tab 120.

9 Q. Now, this is the -- they are minutes of the meeting that you were

10 just referring to, are they, Mr. Krajisnik?

11 A. Reading these minutes, I understood that it was actually those

12 minutes. However, had you asked me whether it was on the 15th, I could

13 not have said had this document not been produced. I attended a meeting,

14 and some of these topics here were ones that I was familiar with, but then

15 I have to be quite honest. I'm not familiar with others.

16 For example, Decision on the Establishment of the SRNA Serbian

17 News Agency. It was established before I came to Pale, although, one can

18 always allow for the possibility of a certain mix-up in one's head, but I

19 certainly attended a meeting in April, and it's probably this date because

20 it says here that I attended.

21 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, this was, was it, the first meeting of this type

22 that you attended in Pale?

23 A. Well, that's what it says here, and I can confirm that that is

24 probably the case.

25 Q. And at this point do you remember whether you were living in Pale

1 or whether you went home after this meeting to Zabrdje?

2 A. No, no, no. I did not live in Pale. I went home to Zabrdje.

3 Perhaps I just spent the night there and returned the next day, but I came

4 particularly on account of this task and then I went home to Zabrdje.

5 Q. The item 1 -- you see who is present. I'm not going to go right

6 through the list, but you are among them and the -- Dr. Radovan Karadzic,

7 the president of the National Security Council chaired the meeting and the

8 agenda that was adopted was, first, a manner of work in an emergency/war

9 situation.

10 The item 1: "It was concluded that meetings of the National

11 Security Council and the government of the Serb Republic of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina are to be held every day depending on the circumstances, but

13 in principle in the Kikinda building in Pale."

14 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, you were a member of the national security

15 council and we see subsequently a series of joint meetings. Were there

16 during April and early May, 1992, separate meetings of either the National

17 Security Council or the government?

18 A. First of all, there was no legal body called the National Security

19 Council. I can explain why I'm saying that. In response to your

20 question, a special meeting was not held as far as I can remember of the

21 government and this sort of council for national security.

22 This is the way it was: Whoever happened to be there attended

23 that meeting. Well, not exactly whoever happened to be there, but from

24 among these high officials. That was the meeting that was called this in

25 the minutes.

1 Q. The conclusion that meetings of National Security Council and the

2 government were to be held every day depending on the circumstances and

3 then the next item said, "Work will begin at 9.00, 0990 hours in the

4 morning on a priority basis with a Council meeting and the development of

5 a daily plan of operation." Did that happen?

6 A. Well, I mean, I'm talking about later when I came there. People

7 lived in Kikinda, in the rooms there. And then when you'd get up in the

8 morning, then you'd have a meeting and you'd discuss things. It's not

9 that people came from somewhere for that. They were there.

10 So there's a room where people spent time sort of like in a

11 living-room, and then people sleep in other rooms. So the conclusion was

12 that they should meet up every morning at 9.00 in order to have a

13 discussion and to have a meeting held that way.

14 It wasn't that way all the time, because somebody could be away on

15 a trip. The organisation was rather poor. Mr. Djeric, in particular, and

16 I, too, complained about the inefficiency of these meetings. Some people

17 would sleep in late. Others would get up earlier. Somebody had left.

18 Somebody was not staying in that building but in another building, and so

19 on and so forth. So is wasn't regular but it was supposed to be regular.

20 Morning consultations during coffee.

21 Q. And item 2, I just mention and don't dwell on it. The prime

22 minister was authorised Mr. Djeric, wasn't it authorised to consult

23 persons needed to fill the government posts.

24 Then item 3, decision and conclusions "Reviewing the security

25 situation in the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, it was

1 assessed that the conditions had been met to propose that the Presidency

2 of the Republic declare a state of imminent threat of war."

3 Did the meeting receive any reports for reaching that decision or

4 conclusion?

5 A. I don't remember any such conclusions, but they weren't even

6 needed. Quite simply, it was clear to everyone that this was a war and

7 that it wasn't the pre-war time any longer. It's not that there was some

8 information that was written and then presented. I don't recall any such

9 information.

10 Q. And then it's over the page in the English, but it's the next

11 paragraph. "It was also proposed that the Presidency adopt measures for

12 the removal of the causes of the situation that has emerged."

13 Was that just saying that the Presidency should try to stop the

14 war, or was it saying something other than that?

15 A. No. The Presidency could not stop the war. When this was being

16 discussed, that is to say this National Security Council, on the 24th of

17 March and on the 27th of March, 1992, it was envisaged that the council as

18 an advisory body, once it is constituted, should present proposals to the

19 authorities, primarily to the Assembly and the Presidency. They were

20 supposed to give advice. And what was suggested here was to introduce a

21 state of imminent threat of war, which was done formally later as well.

22 So how is a crisis announced? A situation where there is an

23 imminent threat of war is proclaim, and then work is done on the solution

24 of that crisis.

25 According to the constitution, it should be the government making

1 that kind of proposal. However, the discussion here indicates that it was

2 the council that had proposed that.

3 Q. There are a number of decisions and conclusions adopted. You

4 referred a few minutes ago to the formation of the Serbian news agency

5 SRNA. Did you subsequently have any role yourself in the formation of

6 such an agency?

7 A. No. When I arrived in Pale, I heard -- well, how shall I put

8 this? - that there was this agency that was nominated or, rather, that was

9 called SRNA. Mr. Karadzic named the agency SRNA. SRNA means the Serb

10 radio -- oh, I'm sorry. Just a moment, please. Now, what is this

11 abbreviation? The Serb radio news agency, SRNA. And that is why it was

12 called SRNA. As for both, I did not know when these things happened, but

13 I was informed about it subsequently.

14 Q. And then there was a decision on the appointment of the acting

15 commander of the TO, the Territorial Defence, and the chief of staff of

16 the -- of the TO. Do you recall who were appointed at that meeting?

17 A. I do not recall this decision, but I saw a decision that was

18 signed by Mr. Djeric. Some Lukic had been appointed, Vidoje Lukic,

19 whatever his name was, and he signed that decision for him. However,

20 truth to tell, that man had no powers whatsoever. He was not in command.

21 He did not carry out this function because he was completely cut off. So

22 this was only very formal and very brief.

23 I saw him once next to a room, but he really didn't have any

24 authority and he was not really in office, but I was not informed about

25 when this had been done. In fact, it was the government that -- actually,

1 I have to say something. I assume that this consultative meeting was held

2 and then somebody later on wrote these minutes and they put into these

3 minutes things that had done previously too. That is my assumption. I

4 mean, I know that some things were discussed, and then others happened

5 before that but are in these minutes. So that is my explanation for that.

6 I heard that these two things happened, but it wasn't that they

7 were discussed at that meeting when I was present.

8 Q. If, as you say, Mr. Vidoje Lukic did not have powers and he didn't

9 carry out this function, did somebody else then carry out those functions

10 in practice?

11 A. At that time, the Yugoslav People's Army was in existence. I

12 remember the attack on Kupres. We were sitting there and we said, "Well,

13 wait a minute. You're the commander. Are you going to do something about

14 it?" They were simply walking around like we were. Nobody commanded

15 these units.

16 Until our army was established, all of this was under the JNA. At

17 local level, whoever had this Territorial Defence simply had to do

18 whatever they could. That was my impression.

19 There were these telephone conversations seeking information and

20 so on, but those were not orders, and no one could have issued orders. It

21 was all dissipated. Every village had its own command, its own guard, and

22 the Yugoslav People's Army was separate from that. So even that which

23 existed relied upon the Yugoslav People's Army.

24 Q. Where was Mr. Mladic at the time, Mr. Ratko Mladic?

25 A. Mr. Mladic, before he came to Sarajevo, to Lukavica, was commander

1 of the Knin Corps. That is to say that he was in the Republic of the Serb

2 Krajina before the Vance Plan.

3 When Mr. Kukanjac was replaced, for a brief period of time he took

4 his place, and he became commander of the 2nd Military District. For a

5 brief period of time, until our army was establish. This did not go on

6 for a long time, but I cannot say how long it went on.

7 Q. But at the time of this meeting, 15th of April, can you say where

8 Mr. Mladic was?

9 A. I had no idea whatsoever as to where he was. I assume that he was

10 at that first place where he worked. He was not in Sarajevo. He was not

11 with us. I think Mr. Kukanjac was there.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau would like to put a question to you.

13 JUDGE HANOTEAU: "Every village had its own guard, its own

14 command, and the Yugoslav People's Army was separated from that."

15 [Interpretation] I would like to put a question to you. Had you did you

16 know this at the time? What information did you have about what was going

17 on in the field? You're telling us this, so did you learn this afterwards

18 or at the time of the meeting of the National Security Council? Were you

19 informed? Who informed you? And did you know what was happening on the

20 field?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the 15th of April, the

22 only regular armed force is the Yugoslav People's Army. Before that, the

23 members of the Presidency reached a decision, I think, to mobilise the

24 Territorial Defence like the Muslim Territorial Defence, following that

25 example. That is to say if there are people who hadn't been mobilised,

1 they should be order.

2 If you remember, on the 27th of March when Karadzic said, "Come

3 on, make some units that would defend their own villages only." I'm just

4 saying if you're already mobilising the Territorial Defence regardless of

5 whether this is happening in actual fact or not, you have to have some

6 kind of commander. So when this commander was appointed, I told you what

7 kind of powers he had, none whatsoever because he didn't have any

8 communication. I assume -- no, I don't assume. I'm sure that every

9 settlement, every village, as soon as some kind of line of separation was

10 established, had its own forces. There were some forces of these villages

11 that protected the area if there was a line. They were protecting their

12 own area.

13 Now, what was the information I had. Like Ilidza, like my home

14 Zabrdje, everybody defended their own ethnic areas. We can call this the

15 armed people, the Territorial Defence, whatever, but this did exist. So

16 you didn't really have to be very smart or to have lots of information to

17 know that -- well, you know, that you know that there is some kind of

18 separation line where there are Serbs on one side and Muslims on the other

19 side, or, let's say, Croats on the other say and so on.

20 I am talking about something -- well, if you were to ask me now on

21 the basis of what did I know all of this, I would really have to try to

22 remember where I heard this but that's the answer will the way it was.

23 That's exactly the way it was. We had these armed people there defending

24 their own villages, and we saw that from the documents.

25 Now, this man was supposed to be their command, but he did not

1 command them because he could not. The armed people relied upon the

2 Yugoslav People's Army, and that is why we established our own army later,

3 because the JNA was supposed to go to Serbia.

4 That would be it, if I managed to give you an explanation. That

5 existed. I saw that in my very own village, in Ilidza, and everywhere.

6 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

8 MR. STEWART:

9 Q. Apart from the meetings which have been mentioned in your evidence

10 today with General Kukanjac, up to this point, 15th of April when this

11 meeting was held, since the start of the war had you had any direct

12 contact yourself with any military commanders anywhere in Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina outside Sarajevo?

14 A. Up to the 15th or later? I beg your pardon. Up to the 15th of

15 April or --

16 Q. Up could this point, Mr. Krajisnik, since the start of the war.

17 In this relatively short period.

18 A. Apart from this meeting with Mr. Kukanjac you mean. Your

19 excluding that meeting; right?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Except on the local level. Except on local level. There was a

22 member of the Yugoslav People's Army, since I was president of the

23 Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina. One day he came to see me. To this day I

24 don't know what his name is. He brought me some kind of radio transmitter

25 so that I could communicate. This went on for about two days or whatever,

1 not more than that. But there were no other contacts that I had. I was

2 not in contact with anyone else. Mr. Kukanjac stayed in Sarajevo, and he

3 was in contact through JuTel and others, but I did not have any

4 communication with him because I was at a different locality. I don't

5 remember having any meetings.

6 As for all the persons mentioned here, I did not have any contact

7 with them. Through the mentioned process, that is.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, have you dealt with the document or not

9 yet?

10 MR. STEWART: I haven't finished with it, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

12 MR. STEWART:

13 Q. Did -- as far as you were aware, did General Mladic have any input

14 to the discussions, decisions, information of this group that met on the

15 15th of April?

16 A. No, absolutely not. I mean, I didn't even know -- well, it wasn't

17 that I didn't even know, but I didn't think about him ever.

18 Q. And then there are a number of conclusions, then, under the

19 heading "The following was also concluded." Do you see that?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. And then a number of items are set out, and in particular, going

22 about eight lines down: "To notify," do you see that, "To notify all the

23 political leaderships of the Serbian autonomous districts and the state

24 leader ships of the Republics of Serbia and Montenegro that cooperate and

25 other contacts between them are to be conducted through the official

1 organs of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

2 As far as you were concerned, Mr. Krajisnik, was that a -- was

3 that a formal step or was it a step with significant practical

4 implications?

5 A. I don't know how this was translated, but what it says here is to

6 send a request -- I don't know where you find this. Where is that

7 written? Oh, yes, I see. I see. "An appeal to the Yugoslav and

8 international public as well as the United Nations." Is that it? No. I

9 beg your pardon. Sorry. I found it. I found it.

10 Well, I cannot remember all the details now, but I know what the

11 reason was.

12 Q. What was it?

13 A. May I? Every municipality, every autonomous region went out

14 looking for assistance on their own autonomously. They contacted the

15 authorities in Serbia and so on and so forth. No one gave the leadership

16 of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina any serious role. And now

17 this, to make an appeal, that there was some kind of leadership. It had

18 even been proclaimed that they had fled somewhere and that it did not

19 exist.

20 When I said at that there was no National Security Council,

21 Mr. Karadzic was supposed to speak up as the top person there, but we

22 didn't want to say that he was the president of the party, because then it

23 would turn out that it was some kind of war waged by the SDS. So what was

24 said then, that it should be the government, which is not there and was

25 not complete. And there should be the National Security Council, because,

1 the party used to have a document entitled "National Security Council."

2 So he was the only president of that council. And this council for

3 national security had never been constituted, actually. We were supposed

4 to pretend that there is some kind of joint authority and that there are

5 not 100 municipalities, but then there's some kind of authority that's

6 speaking up and saying, "Wait a minute. We're here." And there should be

7 contact. It should go through us not every autonomous region behaving

8 like state in its own right. After all, necessity compelled them to do

9 that, but on the other hand they were doing it themselves too.

10 Q. Then it says: "Presidency member Professor Biljana Plavsic is

11 authorised to represent the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in

12 contacts with the United Nations regarding the newly emerged situation."

13 Did that happen? Did she take over that role in practice?

14 A. Mrs. Plavsic was in Sarajevo at the time, in her own apartment.

15 This was made public at this meeting, and then she was in contact with the

16 UN, and then information was provided to the effect that what Mrs. Plavsic

17 was doing, namely that she was in contact with them, that this body

18 authorised her to have contact with the UN. This was also by way of a

19 declaration to hear that she was authorised and behalf of the Serb

20 republic, because before that the two of them had resigned from the

21 Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Mr. Koljevic and Mrs. Plavsic, that is.

22 Q. Did Mrs. Plavsic liaise with or consult you in relation to this

23 work of hers with the United Nations?

24 A. No way, she was isolated in her apartment. And we were worried

25 about her safety. And this Mr. Doyle did quite a bit for her not to be

1 left at the mercy of these gangs that ruled Sarajevo at the time. So if

2 there were any contacts, there were one or two, but not in relation to

3 this issue.

4 Q. Then the next item, Professor Koljevic was --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask for one clarification. You said

6 Mrs. Plavsic was in her apartment in Sarajevo. How long did she stay

7 there? It may have been already in evidence but then I've forgotten about

8 it. When did she come to Pale?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a paper here. If you

10 remember when a protected witness testified, it was made public that on

11 the 20th of April she was taken prisoner in Sarajevo, and that on the 22nd

12 she went out to Pale. That is what the SRNA news says. I know what I

13 read there.

14 I beg your pardon. She did not stay in Pale straight away. She

15 went back and then she travelled to Zvornik, Foca, and so on, but on that

16 day she went to Pale from Sarajevo. As a matter of fact, I think that she

17 actually returned to Sarajevo again. I'm not sure. But Mrs. Plavsic was

18 not at our Assembly in Banja Luka on the 12th of May. I remember that.

19 JUDGE ORIE: What I wanted to know, as a matter of fact, is how

20 long that situation of isolation in Sarajevo in her apartment lasted.

21 That's clear now. Please proceed.

22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I've got a couple more questions.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 MR. STEWART: But I see the clock.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I said please proceed, but it's 7.00.

1 Mr. Krajisnik, we'll adjourn for the day. I instruct you again,

2 you could even say it yourself, not to speak to anybody about your

3 testimony you either already given or still to be given. We'll adjourn

4 until tomorrow, quarter past two, and as I announced there is a fair

5 chance we might finish early tomorrow.

6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, when might we know that fair chance has

7 come about?

8 JUDGE ORIE: That is something that cannot be planned. It could

9 be that we know only at 3.00, 4.00, 9.00 in the morning. It's totally

10 unpredictable.

11 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour, that's helpful, that.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we adjourn until tomorrow, same courtroom,

13 quarter past two.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Friday, the 12th day

16 of May, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.

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