1 Thursday, 15 June 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Good morning to everyone.

9 Mr. Krajisnik, before I give an opportunity to Mr. Tieger to

10 continue the cross-examination, I'd like to remind you that you are still

11 bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of your

12 testimony.

13 WITNESS: MOMCILO KRAJISNIK [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

16 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps for your information, the Chamber has decided

18 that in compensation of the fact that you didn't have the full number of

19 days, also thinking about yesterday and some calculations we made, that

20 you'll have two sessions tomorrow morning in addition to today's session.

21 So therefore, Mr. Josse, then the last session, unless we are dealing with

22 procedural matters, you'll have an opportunity to start re-examination. I

23 take it that you'd like to re-examine the witness.

24 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, we had assumed that re-examination was

25 going to take place after questions from the Bench. Bearing in mind the

1 amount of time --

2 JUDGE ORIE: We said we would split it up. We didn't say anything

3 about the sequence. But I take it for one session tomorrow -- well, let's

4 discuss it perhaps later today. We -- I think we never announced that we

5 would do it in a different sequence apart from how much time to spend on

6 it. But I take it that you certainly would have questions in

7 re-examination for the first session.

8 MR. JOSSE: There will be some re-examination. It is a subject I

9 would like to return to sometime today, if the Court would be so kind.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And we then also like to hear from you how much

11 time you had in mind that you would need for re-examination. Not saying

12 that whatever you say that the Chamber will grant it but at least that we

13 know what your wishes are.

14 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Your Honour, could I think about the situation.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MR. JOSSE: I will need to address the Court on this subject again

17 tomorrow -- I beg your pardon, later today.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Later today. Okay. Then we will hear from you later

19 today.

20 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

21 MR. TIEGER: Again, thank you, Your Honour.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Krajisnik.

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. Yesterday, Mr. Krajisnik, we were focusing on the issue of

1 prisoners of war and detainees, camps and exchanges. We ended the

2 session, as I recall, looking briefly at the 17th Session of the

3 RS Assembly in the latter part of July 1992 and, in particular, the

4 comments of Dr. Karadzic about the territories controlled and by

5 Mr. Milanovic about the huge problem with captured people of other

6 nationalities, Croats and Muslims.

7 We had also focused, as I indicated, on the pace at which

8 exchanges were occurring, and assertions that the rate of exchanges or

9 pace of exchanges was slow, even before that time. I'd like, then, to

10 turn our attention to tab 288 in connection with another comment about the

11 pace of exchanges in mid-part of July 1992.

12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, that is P1033.

13 Q. P1033 is a confidential report from Colonel Vukelic of the

14 1st Krajina Corps to the 1st Krajina Corps command, and if we turn our

15 attention to -- excuse me, I should restate that. It is a report from the

16 1st Krajina Corps command regarding the current political and security

17 situation in the 1st Krajina Corps zone of responsibility and sent to the

18 command. And if we look at page 2 of the English, the last paragraph, and

19 page 3 in your version, Mr. Krajisnik, the top of the -- the

20 second-to-last paragraph, Colonel Vukelic indicates the current situation

21 regarding prisoners and exchanges.

22 "The exchange of prisoners of war with HV representatives has been

23 quite successful but exchanges of Muslim prisoners are proceeding slowly

24 because no one is interested in them. There are more than 2500 prisoners

25 in the POW camp of the 1st Krajina Corps but the number --"

1 A. It must be the wrong page because that passage is not on the page

2 you've indicated to me.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. No. It's on page 3 actually. That's the next page, sorry. Yes.

5 It's on page 3.

6 Q. That's the --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what Mr. Tieger said.

8 Please proceed.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I got the wrong page.

10 MR. TIEGER:

11 Q. I'll direct your attention again. The report states that: "The

12 exchange of prisoners of war with HV representatives has been quite

13 successful but exchanges of Muslim prisoners are proceeding slowly because

14 no one is interested in them. There are more than 2500 prisoners in the

15 POW camp of the 1st Krajina Corps, but the number of detainees in Omarska,

16 Prijedor and Trnopolje is much higher. The local authorities are slow in

17 determining what crimes they are responsible for and want to shift

18 responsibility to the military organs."

19 Now, as we -- as I asked you yesterday and as you indicated, there

20 were a number of concerns expressed about the pace of exchanges. This,

21 Mr. Krajisnik, is another complaint or acknowledgement of the fact that

22 Muslims and -- Muslim and Croat detainees remained in camps awaiting

23 exchange because the exchange process was not proceeding as fast as it

24 might otherwise, for various reasons; is that right?

25 A. I don't know if it's right. It seems so from this paper, but I

1 know that on the 7th of July an agreement was signed with the Muslim side

2 on exchange of prisoners that was not implemented.

3 Q. That was an all-for-all agreement, Mr. Krajisnik?

4 A. I have produced it to you and the Trial Chamber today. That

5 agreement was signed under the aegis of the UNPROFOR.

6 Q. And that agreement or any other agreements regarding exchange were

7 intended to have Muslim and Croat prisoners held by Serbs sent to the

8 Muslim side and vice versa; is that right?

9 A. Well, an exchange means that each side gets their fellow

10 countrymen back. Yes. That was it.

11 Q. Now, I wanted to look next at some of the other officials of

12 Republika Srpska who knew about prisoners, knew that Muslims and Croats

13 were being arrested and rounded up and knew that there was, as

14 Mr. Milanovic said, a huge problem with prisoners. If we could look next

15 at tab 291?

16 MR. TIEGER: That's P763C tab 39, Your Honours.

17 Q. I believe this was the subject of discussion in earlier parts of

18 the case, Mr. Krajisnik, so the Court and you may be familiar with it, but

19 it is a summary of a meeting of MUP officials on July 11th, 1992, a

20 strictly confidential report or analysis by the Serb Republic of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina Ministry of Internal Affairs. And if we look at the

22 first page of that document, we can see some of the people in attendance.

23 I won't go over all of them but I will indicate a few names including:

24 Mico Stanisic, the Minister of Internal Affairs; Cedo Kljajic, the

25 Under-Secretary of Public Security; Mr. Skipina, the Under-Secretary of

1 the State Security Service; various assistant ministers, including

2 Mr. Kusmuk, Mr. Planojevic, Radomir Njegus, Predrag Jeguric; and various

3 other regional officials, including Mr. Zupljanin, Mr. Vukovic,

4 Mr. Bjelosevic, Mr. Cvijetic, Dragan Kijac, Krsto Savic and so on.

5 And if we could at the beginning of the -- of his introductory

6 remarks on page 4 of the English, and I believe page 1852 of your version,

7 Mr. Stanisic indicates that among other things, the members of the MUP

8 have been involved and given their lives, as he says, to "liberate the

9 occupied territories." But what I wanted to direct your attention to,

10 Mr. Krajisnik, was page 8 of the English, at the very top of that page,

11 and in the B/C/S, page 1855, the second paragraph or the first full

12 paragraph of that page.

13 At that point of the meeting, Mr. Zupljanin is addressing the

14 group, and he notes the following: "The army and Crisis Staffs, wartime

15 Presidencies, demand gathering as many Muslims as possible and leave such

16 non-defined camps to the internal affairs. The conditions in these camps

17 are poor. There is no food. Some individuals do not comply with the

18 international standards because, among other things, the concentration

19 centres are not appropriate or for other reasons."

20 Mr. Bjelosevic speaks next. That's at -- he begins at page 9 of

21 the English, and at page 1856 of the B/C/S, Mr. Krajisnik, and he begins

22 by noting, after the first two comments he makes, that, as Mr. Stanisic

23 alluded to earlier, the police had a great share in liberating the Serb

24 territory. And then he goes on shortly after, himself, to point out the

25 same issue that Mr. Zupljanin had raised.

1 That's found, Your Honours, at page 10 of the English, in the

2 third hyphenated passage, the third from the top.

3 And Mr. Krajisnik, on page 1857, the fifth paragraph down, where

4 he says: "The people that the army arrests or captures are brought over

5 in groups and left without any documents regarding reasons for the

6 arrest."

7 And finally, if we can turn to the last page of the document, at

8 page 27 of the English and page 1877 of your version, we find another of

9 the conclusions reached at the meeting regarding issues or problems

10 identified by that gathering of senior MUP officials. And among them are

11 the one seen immediately before the end of the document, that is before

12 the -- it's the penultimate comment on page 27 of the English: "Solving

13 the question of the moving out of certain inhabitants, villages,

14 et cetera, which is not the jurisdiction of the MUP but some are trying to

15 attribute it to the MUP."

16 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, those are all reflections of the same

17 circumstances and events that both Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Milanovic were

18 referring to at the 17th Session. That is, the "liberation" of extensive

19 portions of territory by the Bosnian Serb military forces and the

20 resulting -- the rounding up of Muslims and Croats and their placement

21 into various camps and the logistical and other problems resulting from

22 that. Isn't that right?

23 A. I don't know. I'm seeing this for the first time today, all this

24 that you've shown me. I wasn't aware of it then. I can only speculate

25 whether that's right or not. I can only tell you that more Serbs left

1 Muslim territories than Muslims left Serb territories. And of course

2 there were prisoners from both sides.

3 Today I've produced an order written by Mr. Stanisic related

4 precisely to this, that prisoners should be treated according to

5 regulations, that they should be separated from troops, et cetera. At

6 that time, I didn't know about any of this. Either that or this meeting.

7 However, I located a document, and I've produced it for you and for the

8 Trial Chamber.

9 Q. You have suggested earlier in your testimony that Mico Stanisic

10 was unaware of the existence of camps in which large numbers of Muslims

11 and Croats were held. Can I take it that your review of this document now

12 satisfies you that Mr. Stanisic was very much aware of the existence of

13 camps in which Muslims and Croats were held at that time?

14 A. I stand by what I said yesterday. There is a document of the 24th

15 of August and another one of the 28th of August where he addresses centres

16 with a request to inform him whether camps exist, where the camps are, who

17 is in them and in what conditions. That's the basis for what I'm saying.

18 At the time, I had no knowledge about it.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, just to draw your attention to the

20 fact that you're now referring to documents that were produced, as you

21 said, and I see one of them is among the documents you gave to the parties

22 this morning, late August, whereas Mr. Tieger's questions are about -- are

23 about early and mid-July, and this Chamber has heard some evidence on what

24 happened early August, which changed -- at least seems to have changed the

25 attention paid to camps. So therefore, referring to a late August

1 document might not be an answer to what Mr. Tieger is putting to you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm saying that I

3 don't know anything about this, that I didn't know anything about it at

4 the time, and I've said that I have submitted documents, the agreement,

5 everything else.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

7 MR. TIEGER:

8 Q. As we saw yesterday, on June 10th, the Presidency sought

9 information on detainees and a proposal of measures which you indicated it

10 did not receive until months later, at least until the late August reports

11 to which you're referring. Did you or any other member of the Presidency,

12 as far as you know, speak to Mr. Stanisic in between -- during that

13 period, to find out what was happening with detainees?

14 A. Everybody had their own province of work. I did not talk about

15 this. I could learn what was mentioned at the consultative meetings, and

16 I concluded, on the basis of the documents, that the Presidency had not

17 been informed until the 11th of August. Before the 11th of August there

18 was no report, as far as I managed to see in these documents.

19 Q. Well, first of all, Mr. Krajisnik, as the Court alluded to

20 earlier, the Presidency was informed before the 11th of August because the

21 entire world was informed before the 11th of August, when ITN and the

22 Guardian reporter entered the Omarska camp and sent dispatches and videos

23 which were distributed worldwide. You know about that event.

24 A. That's not right. Mr. Ostojic took the journalists there, and we

25 have an excerpt from the Kozarski Vjesnik. He said there was no

1 censorship. His impression was different from the impression gained by

2 the journalists. Also there was this press release of the government

3 stating that what the journalists wrote about is not true.

4 You still have this press release there. You have it here today.

5 That's what I found out. The journalists wrote about it and then a team

6 was sent out to check whether this was true. Commissions were sent out to

7 see whether this was correct. Journalists went together with Mr. Ostojic

8 and Mr. Bozanic to tour all the camps, all of them. I can bring

9 Mr. Ostojic's statement from that time. I found it in Kozarski Vjesnik.

10 The journalists didn't go out on their own. They went with them.

11 Q. Let's take a look next at tab 287, please.

12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, tab 287 is P583, tab 77, P447.

13 Q. It is a document from the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina, Ministry of the Interior entitled report on some aspects of

15 the work done to date and the tasks ahead dated 17 July 1992. And it was

16 directed to the president of the Presidency and the Prime Minister.

17 So Mr. Krajisnik, this is a report which followed less than a week

18 after the meeting of top MUP officials during which the discussion about

19 the roundup of Muslims and Croats and their placement into camps in poor

20 conditions took place. And it begins, in fact, by referring to that

21 particular meeting, on the first page, the Minister of the Interior called

22 the meeting held in Belgrade on 11 July 1992, as part of an ongoing

23 analysis of the situation.

24 And on page 3 of the English, and page 3 of the B/C/S,

25 Mr. Krajisnik, or the ERN ending in 6858, at the very top of the page, in

1 English, and the very top of the page in B/C/S, Mr. Stanisic reports to

2 the president of the Presidency and the president of the government: "The

3 army Crisis Staffs and War Presidencies have requested that the army round

4 up or capture as many Muslim civilians as possible and they leave such

5 undefined camps to internal affairs organs. The conditions in some of

6 these camps are poor. There is no food. Individuals sometimes do not

7 observe international norms."

8 He also notes further down the page: "For the benefit of the

9 president of the Presidency and the president of the government," about

10 three paragraphs down, at the very beginning: "It should also be noted

11 that new territories are being liberated in combat."

12 And finally he raises to the recipients, to his superiors, the

13 issue that was also raised and that I pointed out to you in the July 11th

14 meeting found at page -- at the bottom of page 6 and in English and the

15 last sentence of the first paragraph on page 11 in B/C/S.

16 And in English, Your Honours, at page 6, that would be the last

17 sentence before the next -- before the two-sentence paragraph at the

18 bottom begins, so it's the last sentence of the last full

19 paragraph. "Special emphasis should be placed" -- I'll quote that

20 actually.

21 "Special emphasis should be placed on the issue of relocating

22 certain citizens, villages, et cetera, because this does not fall within

23 the competence of the MUP, although efforts are being made to link it to

24 the MUP."

25 Mr. Krajisnik, contrary to the assertions you were making before,

1 not only did Mr. Stanisic know about camps in July of 1992, but he duly

2 reported to his superiors, to the Presidency and to the government, about

3 the existence of camps, about the condition of those camps, about the

4 logistical problems resulting from having so many prisoners, and about the

5 concern about the MUP being responsible for relocating villages.

6 A. Well, first of all, I don't know about this report. But it would

7 be a good thing to see whether the government or the Presidency did

8 something on account of this. I believe they did. Because you simply

9 cannot turn a deaf ear to a report like this. You should just have a look

10 at the sessions that followed after this. He's conveying what he heard at

11 a meeting from particular individuals.

12 Another thing: It seems to me that there was an additional page

13 in this report, as far as I can remember, when I first looked at it, a

14 note made by Karadzic -- well, maybe I've made a mistake, I don't know.

15 Q. And when was that, Mr. Krajisnik, that --

16 A. I made a mistake. I think it's that information Mr. Adnan and

17 there was a note there. I confused the two reports. There was one report

18 with a note at the end on the situation in Semberija. It would be a good

19 thing to see whether something had been done about this. If I had the

20 sessions here, I would know whether the government or the Presidency did

21 something about it. I can look this up in the afternoon.

22 Q. Is it still your testimony, Mr. Krajisnik, that by the time of

23 this report, you knew nothing about the existence of camps in which large

24 numbers of Muslims and Croats who had been rounded up were detained in

25 poor conditions?

1 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I will be very specific as to what I've said. I

2 knew about -- I knew about prisoners and prisons but I did not know what

3 conditions they lived in or who detained them.

4 I will remind you that this Assembly session that was held on the

5 11th of August, and that's when a MP asked to have a debate on this. I

6 asked the government to submit a report, some information, rather, and

7 that the next day, on the 12th, in Banja Luka we discussed this. They did

8 not have a report. We could not discuss it on the 12th of August, 1992

9 because there was no government report. That is my knowledge. That is

10 what I heard at the assemblies. All of that did not include a government

11 report, so I could not have any officially based knowledge from an

12 official agency. I did not know under what conditions they lived, what

13 camps there were and so on and so forth. Actually, nobody knew about

14 this. You also have the statement of Mrs. Plavsic that she didn't know

15 about it at the time either.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Tieger has put to you two

17 documents, the one in which the -- it is reported about conditions in

18 camps, and then another report which in exactly the same terms literally

19 the same, from -- at least from what I understand from the translation,

20 describes again, and it is addressed to the Presidency, that there was no

21 food, that conditions were poor. So if you say no one knew about it,

22 sounds surprising, in view of these two reports, even if they were not

23 addressed to the Assembly. You're saying no one knew about it, whereas

24 in these reports, people who are drafting these reports clearly seemed to

25 show that they were aware. So I'm trying to understand your testimony

1 that no one knew about it.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as far as I knew, no

3 one knew.

4 JUDGE ORIE: And today, you still think that no one knew?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether anybody knew.

6 Well, probably someone did know but I don't know. Let me just tell you --

7 JUDGE ORIE: No, let me just -- you say "someone." Now, we have a

8 document here which is dated 17th of --

9 MR. TIEGER: July, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. 17th of July. If you say "someone," I mean not

11 every individual citizen just wrote a report to the Presidency, would

12 they? And we know that since exactly the same language is used, that

13 those who have read those earlier lines most likely are the ones who

14 drafted or perhaps I should even say copied those lines into this report

15 of the 17th of July.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this same minister on

17 the 24th of August asked for information about the camps. I've submitted

18 that to you. It also happened on the 28th of August. He asked for a

19 reports on the camps. I did not see this. I didn't see that either. But

20 I submitted it. Now, I can say that this is correct, but at that time, I

21 did not know, because commissions would not be sent out had there been

22 information about this. Commissions were sent out to tour the entire

23 area.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's known. I was just focusing on that you

25 said no one knew it, whereas --

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, all right. I'm sorry.

2 Let me explain. There was a statement here made by Mrs. Plavsic.

3 She said no one knew, including Mr. Dodik, when he testified. So I said

4 on the basis of that, well, obviously somebody knew that this existed.

5 Those are the words I used. Because somebody should have informed me.

6 There were suspicions, and that's why the commission was sent out to have

7 a look.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Again, Mr. Krajisnik, there were suspicions. I mean,

11 it's described in this report, the 17th of July report, addressed to the

12 president of the Presidency, and I mean, these reports did not come from

13 lower-ranking persons. They came from these sub-top level and were

14 addressed to the president of the Presidency and the Prime Minister, and

15 to say that there were some suspicions, it doesn't say -- these reports do

16 not say there are suspicions that there was insufficient food. It just

17 said that there is not -- it doesn't talk about it.

18 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, some concerns with respect about this

19 line of questioning.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 MR. JOSSE: I ask rhetorically, and with respect, why it matters

22 what Mr. Krajisnik is now saying about whether people had suspicion at the

23 time. His state of knowledge at the time is clearly vital.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 MR. JOSSE: But what he's now asserting, as to whether people knew

1 at the time and his view based on these documents as to the state of

2 knowledge at the time --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, Mr. Josse, I don't have to explain to you

4 that examination of a witness can pertain to several aspects, that is to

5 find out about the facts, to find out about reliability, credibility of a

6 witness. And if a witness says no one knew, if we have two or three or

7 four reports, I think it's only fair to put it to him that no one -- might

8 be very strong language for something which was put on paper, not once but

9 twice, in exactly the same wordings, by high ranking officials.

10 MR. JOSSE: Unless the Chamber says it goes to credibility in my

11 submission it can't assist at all, bearing in mind the Court is --

12 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber does not have to explain what it

13 exactly -- and say I am now putting a question to you because I don't

14 want to know about the facts and then the next question to say, well, this

15 is a question which relates to -- I mean, that's in the Chamber's --

16 MR. JOSSE: Well, I won't pursue my objection at the moment, but I

17 do reserve the right to raise it again.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do. Of course, you -- that's understood

19 and accepted.

20 Mr. Tieger.

21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I was merely on my feet to say that that

22 was a completely appropriate line of questioning for a variety of reasons

23 but I don't need to go into the details now.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Judge Hanoteau has a question.

25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. Krajisnik, you're not

1 challenging the reality of this document, right?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not challenging the information,

3 no.

4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Second point, then. Given the

5 professional relationships that you might have had with the president of

6 the Presidency and with the Prime Minister, how can you explain that these

7 people didn't tell you about what was in this report?

8 I would like to go a bit further, if you allow me. I mean, in

9 this report, there are, I mean, very important, very striking elements,

10 for the life of a country. I mean, the people who read this report must

11 have been moved by it. So how can you explain the fact that they didn't

12 even talk to you about it?

13 You have to understand me here. Outside, you know, any report of

14 hierarchy or institutional relationships, whatsoever. I mean in every day

15 life, in routine life, there are always this kind of relationship where

16 you can go and see -- I've just had this -- I've just received this

17 document, it's -- what do you think about it? What can we do? How can we

18 react to this? So how can you explain that these people didn't talk to

19 you about this, please?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't understand why they

21 would tell me about this. It is their job to get this done, to take

22 measures, to punish, to investigate. All of that is up to them, the

23 government. If the Prime Minister got this, then he was the only one who

24 was supposed to take care of this, and the MUP and the military.

25 If I were informed about everything, I'd have to be like a

1 computer. I assure you, in the papers there is everything about this,

2 when we discussed it and when we said explicitly that everything that was

3 going on in these camps, these prisons, had to be investigated. You have

4 the transcripts where I was present. This wasn't written today. It was

5 written 12 or 14 years ago. And then tasks were given to take measures

6 urgently, to punish perpetrators and so on and so forth. I haven't got

7 the transcripts here in front of me, but I know that the Presidency took a

8 very firm stand to investigate the facts and to establish the facts. I

9 was present there. For me, it was sufficient that they would take care of

10 it.

11 They received all this information from the field. The commission

12 was there, everything was supposed to be established by that commission,

13 and to provide official information. Not to have hearsay but to have

14 proper information. Nobody else was authorised but the government, the

15 military, the president of the republic. It wasn't my job. I'm not

16 disassociating myself from it, but I did hundreds of things about which I

17 did not inform the Prime Minister, who was 20 kilometres away from me.

18 If somebody discussed something, well, measures were taken. I can

19 guarantee that measures were taken in respect of this but we just have to

20 find this.

21 There is a request from Mr. Stanisic precisely from that period,

22 where he rigorously orders the centres how they should behave. I handed

23 in that document today. I found it by chance. That's probably it.

24 Somebody gave him instructions, do this or do that. For that, that was --

25 for me that was sufficient.

1 I really did not have any knowledge about the conditions in the

2 camps. But how could I have known? How could I have known? How could I

3 say, well, people are being killed, they have no food, they have no water,

4 let it be. Who could I possibly have done that? I would have done my

5 best to improve their conditions. The commission proposed all of that and

6 this was officially done. It was submitted to the government and the

7 Assembly was informed.

8 Your Honour, on the 11th of August, there was no government

9 report, and on the 12th, we could not discuss an official report by the

10 government. I know that.

11 I can guarantee that something was done about this. How could

12 something not be done about this? Well, I did not take any measures. It

13 was not for me to take any measures, and I was not kept abreast of these

14 things either. Of course anybody would be interested in what was going

15 on. If you wouldn't be interested in this kind of thing, then you would

16 be committing a crime.

17 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll find the document tomorrow in

19 relation to this and I'll bring it to you, so that you will see what the

20 reaction was. For sure there was a reaction. How could one not react to

21 this?

22 MR. TIEGER:

23 Q. Now, we've had an opportunity just during the course of the last

24 couple of sessions to see a number of people who knew about the camps,

25 including every top MUP official, Colonel Ilic, Major Andric, the Prijedor

1 Crisis Staff, the Sanski Most Crisis Staff, the Petrovac Crisis Staff,

2 Milanovic and the entire Assembly. Now Mr. Stanisic. Mr. Mandic also

3 knew about the existence of camps.

4 A. Mr. Mandic testified here, and he said that he did not know about

5 them. He only knew about Kula, and he sent a commission to find out what

6 was going on. That's what I heard him say here. As to whether he knew,

7 he should have been asked. He testified here in this Court stating that

8 he did not know.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I'm just, for your information, while

10 answering questions, you should keep in mind that if a witness said

11 something, that it's not for the full 100 per cent sure that the Chamber

12 will adopt such a testimony as in accordance with the truth if there is

13 other evidence which contradicts that evidence. I'm just pointing that to

14 you. Because you're using several times language that -- well, with some

15 conviction in your voice, this is what the witness said, but of course you

16 should be aware that in formulating your answers and telling us -- and

17 giving your testimony, you cannot just rely on adoption by this Chamber of

18 every single word a witness said in this Court.

19 And in a similar way, you said, and it's not for the first time,

20 you said, "How could I know?" Of course, that exactly is the issue. I

21 mean, the answer to that question is very simple. You could know if those

22 who, on paper, seemed to have been aware of certain circumstances would

23 have told you. Of course, your evidence, we well understood that, that

24 they did not do so. But adding to it, "How could I know," that's exactly

25 the issue, whether they told you, whether they didn't tell you.

1 I thought it wise to inform you about these matters, which might

2 enable you to understand exactly what it means to receive evidence, and

3 also that we of course, first of all, are interested in whether you knew,

4 whether you were informed, and then the question whether you could have

5 been informed, that it's a more complicated question and is not simply

6 answered by saying, "How could I have possibly known?" Because that

7 answer is -- that answer is -- or that question is simply to be answered,

8 how you could, but most important is what happened.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Let's take a look at tab 286, please, which is P461. I want to

12 turn to page 11 of the English, and it should be approximately the same

13 page in your version, Mr. Krajisnik. It's the first reference -- well,

14 first of all, I should indicate that this is a conversation between

15 Mr. Mandic and Brana Kvesic on the 10th of July, 1992, also between --

16 also Mr. Ivo Rezo comes on the phone during the course of that

17 conversation.

18 And, Mr. Krajisnik, if -- I'm afraid I can't direct you

19 immediately to the B/C/S page, but if you look at the reference at

20 approximately the eleventh page in to Mr. Madzarevic, which is on

21 page 2474, in approximately the middle.

22 And, Your Honours, that's also on page 11 of the English.

23 And then looking -- you found that, Mr. Krajisnik?

24 A. Yes, I found it.

25 Q. Just a couple of comments down, at the very -- the last two

1 comments in -- on page 11, Mr. Kvesic says: "There are some of our men in

2 Manjaca, man."

3 And Mr. Mandic says: "In Krajina, right?"

4 And they continue. "Yes," says Mr. Kvesic.

5 Mandic says: "We can do it."

6 Kvesic: What can you do about it?

7 Mandic: A lot.

8 Kvesic: Listen, fuck, let's find out ... Listen, it is because of

9 relations in general.

10 Mandic: Naturally, man.

11 Kvesic: There is ...

12 Mandic: All right, I'll tell it to my main boss."

13 And then further on, about five or six of the lines down, Kvesic

14 says: "They are placed somewhere on Manjaca."

15 Mandic: Over there in the military camp on Manjaca?

16 So, Mr. Krajisnik, it is clear that Mr. Mandic, like Mr. Stanisic,

17 knew about the existence of camps in July of 1992.

18 A. Well, I don't know if he knew. If he said here that he knew, then

19 he knew. Here he said that he didn't. Maybe he was aware of Manjaca

20 after all. This is a reference to our first meeting in London in July.

21 Q. And Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Mandic both, as Dr. Djeric told the

22 entire Assembly at the 22nd Session in November 1992, reported to

23 Dr. Karadzic and you. Those are the two people at the top levels of

24 government that they dealt with.

25 And let me turn your attention to the 22nd Session at page 12.

1 Mr. Krajisnik, for your benefit that is at page 9644, the last ERN digits

2 in the B/C/S.

3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, you will find that portion beginning

4 in the second half of the first long paragraph, and I'll begin at the

5 part "if somebody else insisted."

6 Q. And let me address Mr. Krajisnik's attention to the passage. In

7 the first long paragraph on page 9644, Mr. Krajisnik, at approximately the

8 middle --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I have not found it. We are talking

10 about the 22nd Session which is the 23rd, 24th of November, 1992, and

11 you're --

12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, again, it would be -- I don't know

13 which binders the Court has. And at the beginning of the session, we --

14 at the beginning of Mr. Krajisnik's examination-in-chief, in fact, we

15 distributed common binders, we had hoped, so that everybody could -- I

16 don't know if the Court has the benefit of that or not.

17 JUDGE ORIE: We have these grey binders. To be quite honest, I

18 don't know exactly who prepared them. But whatever has happened -- are we

19 talking about the same session?

20 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. So I do know that -- and in

21 connection, as I indicated, and we had a discussion about this earlier in

22 court, there was a revised translation of the 22nd Session. That came up

23 with Mr. Stewart; I don't know if Mr. Josse was here at the time.

24 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, we have got all the material that

25 Mr. Tieger is alluding to and we bring them into court every day.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, as a matter of fact, the binder I'm working on

2 is prepared by our staff, and -- so -- but whatever confusion there is, if

3 there is a possibility to have it. But you have the -- you say it's on

4 the -- you gave the number because then I could look on my screen to find

5 it.

6 MR. TIEGER: The ERN number, Your Honour?

7 JUDGE ORIE: No. Mainly if there is any exhibit number.

8 MR. TIEGER: Exhibit number would be P65, Treanor 14, tab 213.

9 But I don't know whether or not the revised translation has -- was entered

10 by the Court personnel. Again --

11 JUDGE ORIE: No. Perhaps --

12 MR. TIEGER: But here is the version -- we can put it on the ELMO,

13 Your Honour, or the Court can look at it and decide how to handle this.

14 And there is a yellow tab marking the particular passage we will be

15 referring to now. Okay.

16 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, it's -- I know you've been looking at that while

17 we've been talking. It's the portion that begins in the middle of that

18 paragraph at page 12 of your version. And it -- and there, Dr. Djeric

19 states: "If somebody else insists on appointments of certain ministers,

20 then, gentlemen, that person needs to assume responsibility for the work

21 of those ministers as well, so far not a single membership of state

22 leadership did that, on the contrary, everybody says the government is

23 responsible, the Prime Minister is responsible, orchestration is

24 responsible, and when it comes to legislature, when we are dealing with

25 the Minister of Justice, the Minister of the Interior, they are not even

1 members of the government. They don't attend the government meetings.

2 They meet with the president of the republic and the chairman of the

3 Assembly, not a single one of them ever appeared before the people or on

4 TV and said they were responsible for their work and what they were doing,

5 thereby releasing the Prime Minister of any liability. That would be

6 fair."

7 It was certainly Mr. Djeric's understanding in November of 1992

8 that Stanisic and Mandic would meet with you and Dr. Karadzic rather than

9 him or other members of the Bosnian Serb leadership. And at those

10 meetings, Mr. Krajisnik -- well, first of all, that's correct, isn't it?

11 And I'll remind you, since you seem fond of referring to Mr. Mandic's

12 testimony, that's what he said. It's true that Mandic and Stanisic used

13 to go directly to you and Karadzic?

14 A. Mr. Stanisic didn't say that, nor did he come to see me. Neither

15 Mr. Stanisic nor Mr. Mandic. But it's true that Mr. Djeric said this.

16 But we also have Stanisic's and Mandic's contributions at this session.

17 Mr. Mandic did not say that they were reporting to me or had been keeping

18 me informed, and you can't find that bit. Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Mandic did

19 not keep me informed. Nor did they go to my office, as Mr. Djeric says.

20 They did not simply attend cabinet meetings, and that's why Mr. Djeric

21 thought that they must be elsewhere, such as in the president's office or

22 my office. After this remark, they did start coming to cabinet meetings,

23 and you can hear other contributions by the two of them, just behind this

24 one.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, you've referred on quite a number of occasions

1 to the all-for-all agreements that would enable the exchanges to move

2 forward and appeared to be pointing the finger at the Muslims for failing

3 to implement such agreements, that would have resulted in the -- in the

4 prisoners and detainees in Serb detention facilities going to the Muslim

5 side and vice versa.

6 Now, first of all, Mr. Krajisnik, one of the reasons that the

7 exchanges were not moving forward at a different pace was that both the

8 Muslims and the international community recognised that this was a

9 technique or device for expulsions and tried not to cooperate. In fact,

10 you were -- Mr. Stewart cited for you Ambassador Okun's testimony which

11 was similar to that of other international representatives from whom this

12 Court heard, that this represented a "terrible moral dilemma." So the

13 fault wasn't with some kind of arbitrary lack of cooperation by the Muslim

14 side; at least part of the problem was that people saw through this

15 technique.

16 A. Well, first of all, it's not true. I said that I had heard from

17 those who were doing that that Muslims were not willing to go forward with

18 an all-for-all exchange, and I concluded that was true because the Muslims

19 had signed one agreement but they didn't want to sign another agreement.

20 And I submitted those. The 7th July agreement was signed and the 11th

21 July was not signed. The mediators, in signing -- in the signing of these

22 agreements was the UNPROFOR. That's why it was very difficult for me to

23 say any more about these exchanges. The UNPROFOR mediated in the first

24 agreement, for an all-for-all exchange.

25 Q. Do you agree, Mr. Krajisnik, that the representatives of the

1 international community -- I'll start again.

2 You agree, Mr. Krajisnik, that the representatives of the

3 international community recognised that the detention of Muslims and their

4 subsequent exchange represented a form of or a technique for ethnic

5 cleansing and resisted participation in it for that reason?

6 A. Well, I -- I don't know any examples except the one from

7 Bosanski Brod, when Mr. Kljujic -- sorry, Kirudja was involved. I

8 provided you with newspaper articles. And I'm not aware that the

9 international community condemned this.

10 I gave you also video footage about how the ethnic cleansing was

11 done, but I was not aware that the international community thought of this

12 as a form of ethnic cleansing or a technique, and Mr. Okun is not right

13 about this. I was not aware that the international community was seeing

14 it that way. And he did not tell me anything like that.

15 Q. Well, I know you were aware of the Mazowiecki report because I

16 know that in November or December - I can't recall precisely when - you

17 condemned it and condemned him as biased. So you knew about that report;

18 correct?

19 A. Yes. And I read it recently again. And I established that he

20 didn't actually go to Bihac because the Muslims were shooting. He went

21 instead to Viktor Bubanj and he had only praise for that place, whereas

22 hundreds of people were killed. I based my statement that he was biased

23 on other examples, and I saw from the examples I know that he was less

24 than well informed. In Viktor Bubanj, for which he had only praise, is --

25 that was a place where hundreds of people were killed by criminals and he

1 didn't even put that in his report.

2 Q. All right. You can tell us that you think Mr. Mazowiecki was

3 biased or that you rejected his conclusions for whatever reason you want,

4 but my question was whether you were aware of it. And so let's turn to

5 Mr. Mazowiecki's report from August of 1992 which is found at tab 309.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I think that question has been answered.

7 MR. TIEGER: I'm actually --

8 JUDGE ORIE: I understand --

9 MR. TIEGER: It's not about aware necessary, Your Honour, it's

10 about a particular portion.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

12 MR. TIEGER: And that's P295, P583, tab 94.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 295? Let me find it.

14 MR. TIEGER:

15 Q. No, no, tab 309. Did I miss --

16 JUDGE ORIE: 309, yes.

17 MR. TIEGER:

18 Q. I'll try to indicate the tab number specifically and then I will

19 often be giving the exhibit number, Mr. Krajisnik, so you'll have to not

20 be misled by that.

21 A. You are providing a lot of material, and it's difficult to find

22 one's way through it.

23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll help you, Mr. Krajisnik.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm counting on that. Thank you.

25 MR. TIEGER:

1 Q. And Mr. Krajisnik, if we can turn to page 5 of that report, in the

2 English, it is paragraph 23, and you will find that, Mr. Krajisnik, at

3 page 5 of the B/C/S, and helpfully the paragraphs are numbered.

4 JUDGE ORIE: They are.

5 MR. TIEGER:

6 Q. I see you're at that page, Mr. Krajisnik. There, the report

7 states: "The detention of civilians is clearly being used as a method of

8 pressuring them to leave the territory. In many cases, after agreeing to

9 leave, they are obliged to sign documents renouncing their claim to their

10 homes and other property or indicating that they agree to donate their

11 property to the local government. Ethnic Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina

12 have also adopted the policy of 'exchanging prisoners.' According to some

13 impartial observers the need to obtain ethnic Serbs to exchange against

14 detained Muslims is one of the main reasons for arbitrary detention of

15 ethnic Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina."

16 That's a reflection, Mr. Krajisnik, of the understanding of the

17 international community about the technique of detention and exchange and

18 their consequent reluctance to participate in it, the "terrible moral

19 dilemma" that Ambassador Okun referred to.

20 A. At that time I did not read this report. I told you. I read it

21 only in excerpts just a few days ago and I read passages about Bihac and

22 Viktor Bubanj. At the time, however, I gave my assessment based on other

23 things. If I had the opportunity to read the entire report, then I could

24 perhaps comment on it.

25 Q. Well, I was referring to that particular section of the report as

1 a reflection of what Ambassador Okun told us, other internationals told

2 us, and we see here was the understanding of the international community.

3 But you -- I had also asked you whether it wasn't the case that

4 the Muslims themselves were reluctant to participate in this process for

5 precisely the same reason, that they recognised what it was about.

6 Now, you stated, at least once and I believe more than once, or

7 you referred more than once during the course of your

8 examination-in-chief, to agreements to exchange populations, and on

9 May 24th, you referred to, at I think page 19, you said, at the local

10 level they even discussed an exchange of the civilian population. We

11 didn't know that at the time. They said let all our people go. We will

12 let all your people go. And that way, people will be safe.

13 This is in the minutes of the Presidency of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina, when Mr. Sefer Halilovic informed them of this, and you

15 directed the Court's attention to the minutes of that Presidency session,

16 and to Mr. Halilovic's book.

17 It may be useful, Mr. Krajisnik, to look at that particular

18 session in its -- a little bit more detail, to understand more fully the

19 understanding of the Muslim side about this process and the references

20 that you made to such local agreements. And in that connection, if we

21 could distribute, if it isn't already available, the tape recording of

22 the session of the Bosnian Presidency held on 20 June 1992.

23 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me, I'm at the court's -- I'm not

24 suggesting that we need to break but obviously, even if we move quickly,

25 I'll be a few minutes beyond the 10.30 time, so I didn't want to --

1 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps -- I'm just looking at one -- one second,

2 please.

3 One question, Mr. Krajisnik. If you say that the report of

4 Mr. Mazowiecki was biased, isn't it true that he in his report states

5 clearly that serious violations of human rights were committed by all

6 parties, although he says that especially the fate of the Muslims was

7 tragic but he doesn't exclude in any way crimes committed, even says that

8 it's what happens, by all parties. So if you're so strong in saying that

9 he was -- it says: "Human rights violations are being perpetrated by all

10 parties to the conflict. There are also victims on all sides." And then

11 he continues saying that the situation of the Muslim population is

12 particularly tragic.

13 But if you say people were killed in Viktor Bubanj -- I mean, I'm

14 trying to understand where, although there is some emphasis, that

15 Mr. Mazowiecki, and we are now talking, I think, about the final report,

16 Mr. Tieger, and we are not talking about the interim reports that were

17 published earlier. Could you explain what made you comment so negatively

18 on this report?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the only thing he said, in

20 general terms that all three sides were to blame. And individually he

21 only spoke about visits to the Serb territory, as if he never went to the

22 Muslim territory. You will see that he didn't go to Bihac, he went to

23 Viktor Bubanj. He actually commended them. I even have a report stating

24 that he commended them. A special document. He probably wasn't even

25 informed. I'm not trying to say that he was doing this on purpose. What

1 you read out is just striking a balance, but on an individual basis, he

2 only talked about the Serbs. Visits to the Serb territories. As much as

3 I managed to see the report in a hurry.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That special document --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zenica, Tuzla, Mostar, Travnik.

6 None of that is mentioned. Nothing. Only Serb territories.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether that's true or not, I'll have to reread

8 it again. But you said he actually commended them and I even have a

9 report stating that he commended them, a special document. Are you

10 referring to any of the interim reports or -- I'm just trying to find out

11 so that I can read it.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. I have a special

13 document, a separate document. The warden of the Viktor Bubanj prison

14 stated that Mr. Mazowiecki had commended him, but it wasn't in this

15 report. He gave a positive assessment of Viktor Bubanj. Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's at least what the warden of that prison

17 says. I mean, I thought, as a matter of fact, you were referring --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: -- were referring to a source which was

20 Mr. Mazowiecki himself, but whether or not the governor or the warden of

21 Viktor Bubanj there expressed what -- if we do not find it in the reports

22 of Mr. Mazowiecki, of course, the question would be whether it's correct

23 or not what this or not what this warden said or reported. But I do

24 understand that it's not a document for which authorship is with

25 Mr. Mazowiecki.

1 We'll have a break until 11.00.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, may I take it that you will tell us when

5 you're ready to address the procedural matters you had in mind, perhaps

6 after the next break, but I just don't want to --

7 MR. JOSSE: I most certainly have not forgotten the issue, Your

8 Honour. It's foremost in my mind, but after the next break would be

9 preferable.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll do it after the next break.

11 Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

12 MR. TIEGER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, just before the break, I had been directing your

14 attention to the understanding of the international community and of the

15 Muslim side about the technique of and consequence of exchanges, and we

16 had been just about to look at a document which is a more complete version

17 of something which you alluded to in your examination-in-chief, and that's

18 the session of the BH Presidency held on 20 June 1992.

19 Looking at page 1 --

20 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I had forgotten where we were. I think

21 this needs a number. Yes, it does.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1246, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. And Mr. Tieger, if you could tell us what

25 day it was subject of the examination-in-chief, then ...

1 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, the 24th of May.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

3 Q. Now, in the -- this portion of the first page, Mr. Krajisnik,

4 Mr. Halilovic is speaking, and beginning at about the middle of the page,

5 he relates that his understanding of --

6 A. You said on the first page but it's not on the first page.

7 Izetbegovic, Pelivan, Izetbegovic.

8 Q. Quite right. It's page 8080 in the B/C/S.

9 A. Just a moment, please. Please go ahead.

10 Q. He does direct his attention to SDS members who he refers to as

11 extremist members of the SDS, driven around in an UNPROFOR vehicle in the

12 Krajina, and to some kind of agreement and indications about an exchange

13 and settlement. And he continues: "If I understand it correctly, I think

14 that's very dangerous and fatal from a political aspect, so I would like

15 us to take a stand about this, because we are playing directly into the

16 hands of those whose intention it is to create some ethnic territories, to

17 move the population and to create clean national units."

18 And then if we look to a couple of comments by the president

19 and -- well, by Mr. Izetbegovic on page 3 of the English, and for you,

20 Mr. Krajisnik, beginning on page 8083 and we'll see it again on page --

21 the next passage on 8084. Under president, he states: "Let's return to

22 the question, the question that Halil asked."

23 And then continues: "There is one question, the people are in

24 danger and the situation in Banja Luka is similar. There is the

25 Banja Luka, Zenica, et cetera problem. They are being threatened with

1 destruction. You can either move out and then we'll do an exchange,

2 et cetera, and change the ethnic composition we've got. We can choose

3 between either simply accepting this or not accepting it. If we don't

4 accept it, then these people really can get hurt. If we accept it, we are

5 legalising ethnic division that is..."

6 And then continuing on the portion under the heading, Izetbegovic,

7 on the next page for you, Mr. Krajisnik, and the last paragraph of page 3

8 in the English. "If we don't accept the ultimatum, these people really

9 could be hurt. If we accept it, we are legalising ethnic division, that

10 is the alteration of the demographic picture of Bosnia, the creation of

11 ethnically clean territories like some precondition for the creation of

12 some kind of a Serbian state in BH. Finally, as regards the exchange, is

13 it fair and is it okay?"

14 Those remarks, Mr. Krajisnik, are yet another reflection of the

15 terrible moral dilemma to which Mr. Okun and others alluded, and the

16 understanding of the Muslim side of the purpose and consequences of

17 exchanges.

18 A. How the Muslim side understood this, you can see in

19 Mr. Halilovic's conclusion, and I've submitted that. The Presidency never

20 discussed this again. This was just for Mr. Halilovic.

21 I would like to draw your attention to something here. Halilovic

22 says, "Serbs from Central Bosnia are moving out. And the armed forces of

23 the Serbs are gaining strength around Sarajevo." And that is what caused

24 concern, as far as he was concerned. You have it all in his book. He

25 commented on that. You have it here. I read that. I certainly did.

1 Muslim representatives in Bihac also took part in the exchange.

2 Perhaps you should have read that too a few moments ago. You probably saw

3 that, what Mr. Halilovic said. The Muslims and the Serbs were agreeing on

4 that. Regarding the relocation of the population, that is. Official

5 organs, official authorities were agreeing on that.

6 Q. Well, I've been focusing on the issue of exchange to some extent,

7 Mr. Krajisnik, so let me ask you this: It wasn't only Stanisic and Mladic

8 and Andric and others who knew that Muslims were languishing in detention

9 until the exchange commission completed its work and sent them to the

10 other side. You were aware of the existence of the exchange commission

11 and also aware of allegations that it was considered as a device through

12 which ethnic cleansing was pursued. And that was true in May and June of

13 1992.

14 A. I just knew Mr. Mandic. I called him. I didn't even know who the

15 members of the commission for the exchange were. When I found out from

16 the media that ethnic cleansing was being talked about, I made a

17 statement, a public statement, in October, that I was deeply opposed to

18 ethnic cleansing. I said that. I was the only politician in

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina who made such a statement. You haven't got a single

20 statement of this kind made by any other politician except me. That's the

21 only one I saw in the newspapers.

22 Q. Well, Mr. Krajisnik, you also said in the Club 91 interview in

23 April of 1991, if I recall correctly, how deeply opposed you were to the

24 division of the live tissue of Bosnia. So I think it's fair to say that

25 at least on some occasions what you say and what you pursue or believe,

1 may not be wholly in harmony.

2 A. That is not correct. In May 1991, I was president of the Assembly

3 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I deeply worked for Bosnia-Herzegovina. I said

4 everything that I thought then because what was in the making was a

5 historical agreement between the Serbs and the Muslims.

6 As the times changed, of course, my statements were adapted to the

7 times, but they were never radical and they were never against a single

8 Bosnia, because we had accepted it.

9 Q. Led get back to the exchanges. The exchange commission as we

10 saw --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question.

12 Mr. Krajisnik, you said: "I was the only politician at that time

13 who publicly opposed ethnic cleansing." How should we understand that?

14 That those who did not express themselves were not opposed against it, or

15 should we understand this to be that -- I mean, I'm trying to find out

16 what your testimony in this respect means, because if all the others were

17 opposed but did not publicly express that, what's then the difference?

18 I'm trying to understand where you put yourself in a very special position

19 as publicly opposing against ethnic cleansing. Could you please explain?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I said the following:

21 When I learned from the media about the problem of ethnic cleansing, I

22 made a public statement that I was deeply opposed to every form of ethnic

23 cleansing. I made two statements. And I said, as far as I managed to see

24 in the media, I am the only person who made such a statement. That is the

25 meaning of what I've said. I don't know. Maybe I've made a mistake.

1 Maybe somebody else made a statement to that effect, too, but I never

2 found such a statement.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking whether you made a mistake when you

4 said that, but I'm asking you what it means. Because you draw our

5 attention to the fact that you publicly state against ethnic cleansing,

6 does that mean that the others who did not publicly state against it, that

7 they did not care or that they did not oppose or that -- I mean, if you

8 were the only one, I take it that the others were aware of what was

9 published in the media as well.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll explain. The Prosecutor asked

11 me about myself, whether I knew. I was explaining myself. As for others,

12 whoever I came across and whoever I talked to from the Serb side, from the

13 Serb leadership, I had the impression that they were opposed to that, but

14 I don't know why they did not make public statements to that effect.

15 Maybe they did. There were a lot of interviews but I did not read such a

16 statement.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just trying to find out whether you were asked

18 about others and whether you introduced that yourself.

19 You were asked about whether you were aware of the existence of

20 the exchange commission and whether you were also aware of allegations,

21 that is it was considered as a device through which ethnic cleansing was

22 pursued, and you were asked whether that was true in May or June of 1992.

23 And then no one asked you about other politicians, what they said in the

24 media. You introduced that just by yourself. You said, "I made a

25 statement in October," which of course does not directly relate to what

1 was asked of you, that was about May or June of 1992. And then you

2 introduced yourself, that you were the only one. So therefore, if you

3 say, "I was just explaining my own position," you are comparing your own

4 position with the position of other politicians. Did you ever discuss

5 with others, since you gave this public statement, whether they should not

6 do the same or if it was -- I mean, it was an important item, wasn't it?

7 So did you ever discuss whether they should publicly express

8 against ethnic cleansing?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not mean only Serb

10 politicians. I meant all politicians, Muslim, Croat and Serb, when I said

11 that.

12 JUDGE ORIE: My question -- my question was about Serb

13 politicians, just to clarify that.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in the media, I heard from

15 Karadzic when he said that there was no ethnic cleansing, and this was in

16 the month of September, after Owen and Stoltenberg, and then there are

17 also people who were in the authorities in Banja Luka who said that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's again not an answer to my question.

19 What you -- I asked you whether you discussed with others whether they

20 should, as you did, publicly express against ethnic cleansing. Your

21 answer now is that in public statements they denied ethnic cleansing to

22 take place, which, of course, is not the same, because even if it does not

23 happen you still can say, but -- I mean, saying that it should not happen

24 doesn't say that you admit that it does happen. At least I take it that

25 when you publicly expressed against ethnic cleansing, that this was not

1 admitting that it happened, or did I misunderstand you?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I remember this now and I have

3 to correct myself. In that article, Mr. Karadzic said precisely that

4 there cannot be any ethnic cleansing in Serb territories. That's what

5 Koljevic said too when we talked.

6 We did talk about this problem of accusations concerning ethnic

7 cleansing, probably. I can't remember now. So that's why I said it in

8 some interview. And, well, I don't know whether anyone of them said

9 something in public. Perhaps for the international media. I mean, I said

10 that I found my own statement but I did not find any statements by others.

11 I'm not trying to say that they didn't say anything, but we did talk about

12 these accusations of ethnic cleansing and they were denying it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, you did say that you were the

14 only one. It was translated to us that "I was the only politician in

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina who made such a statement." So it doesn't say, "I

16 didn't see any of the other statements." You just claimed that you were

17 the only one. I'm trying to carefully listen to your testimony but you --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You know what --

19 JUDGE ORIE: You still have not answered my question. My question

20 was whether you discussed that others should also publicly express against

21 ethnic cleansing.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not talk about that, but I did

23 talk about ethnic cleansing. Accusations concerning ethnic cleansing.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

25 Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

1 MR. TIEGER:

2 Q. Yesterday, we looked at documentation reflecting that the exchange

3 commission was established on the 8th of May, and it was within a short

4 time, very short time, after that, that it was in operation. And if we

5 can turn next to tab 259, that's a video, Your Honour, which I'd like to

6 play. P74. And this is a video depicting the approximately 400 Muslims

7 from Bratunac about whom we've heard before, who were expelled from

8 Bratunac to Visoko via Pale.

9 I'm just going to play a brief portion of that video, if we could

10 start now.

11 [Videotape played]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, we have the problem that there was no

13 text on our screen, B/C/S was not translated, and therefore -- into

14 English and we have no French either then. Unless the parties would agree

15 that it is already in the -- I beg your pardon.

16 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I was going to say yes, it

17 is already in evidence. I won't be referring to the text of the video.

18 It's been that exhibit that has been --

19 JUDGE ORIE: It's just refreshment for our visual --

20 MR. TIEGER: That's correct. I just wanted to identify those

21 particular prisoners.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.

23 MR. JOSSE: So long as the witness is happy, I --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first wait and see what the questions will be.

25 MR. JOSSE: Precisely.

1 MR. TIEGER: And there's a transcript available, if necessary.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the transcript we have in front of us.

3 MR. TIEGER:

4 Q. Now those prisoners and others like them, whom we just saw on the

5 screen, were expelled from Bratunac via Pale, as we've heard on quite a

6 number of occasions, through the process of the exchange commission,

7 Mr. Krajisnik; isn't that right?

8 A. I don't know who conducted the exchange of those prisoners because

9 we only have two documents from the government here requiring certain

10 trucks to be able to transport them to Ilijas. I don't know.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I do understand that you, as being an

12 accused, that you heard all the evidence that was presented. During your

13 examination, what you say, I don't know who arranged for it, there is no

14 need to make reference to other evidence that was presented here, because

15 usually witnesses would not even know about that. You're just asked,

16 because you're more or less commenting on the evidence which this Chamber

17 heard, and since of course it's all very transparent, but it's not exactly

18 within the role of a witness what you're doing at this moment to say, "I

19 didn't know but we only have two documents." Well, whether we have two or

20 ten or five is not something for a witness at this moment, unless you're

21 specifically asked about what you know about the evidence presented, but

22 it's not the subject of questioning, and you're more or less in debate at

23 this moment.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour. But I

25 understood when he says "we've seen testimony here," but otherwise I

1 agree. I'll try to answer the questions strictly.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's not dramatic, but I just wanted to point

3 that out.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

5 MR. TIEGER: Tab 256, Your Honours and Mr. Krajisnik. That's P61.

6 Q. And although the bulk of the list consists of -- the bulk of the

7 document consists of a long list of names, we can see, on the front page

8 of the English and of your version as well, Mr. Krajisnik, in B/C/S, that

9 the subject is the total of 400 persons who were driven from Bratunac to

10 Pale, who are listed on those pages. And if we turn to page 3 of the

11 English, and page 00835782 of the B/C/S, we can also see that the document

12 is signed by Slobodan Markovic, member of the government's commission on

13 behalf of the Serbian MUP for the exchange of prisoners of war. And as we

14 noted in an earlier document, Mr. Markovic was the MUP representative on

15 the commission for exchange at that time. So the expulsion and -- of the

16 400 people from Bratunac via Pale was conducted through the exchange

17 commission, which was operating less than a week after its establishment.

18 A. Well, I see this document for the first time. I didn't read it

19 before. It says: "Member of the government's commission on behalf of the

20 Serbian MUP." I suppose this man was simultaneously a member of the

21 commission and a member of the MUP. Maybe he represented both

22 organisations. He was wearing both hats. I'm just -- I'm just saying I

23 don't know whether the commission did this. I just don't know. It's not

24 that I'm disputing it.

25 Q. When did you find out that the Commission for Exchange was

1 functioning?

2 A. I knew about the commission in later years. All I knew was that

3 Mr. Mandic did this job while he was there. I cannot remember the date

4 when I found out that the commission was operating because there were

5 several commissions across regions, and I didn't know about this central

6 commission. I didn't feel its activity in 1992. Or maybe I did. I

7 simply can't remember.

8 Q. Let's turn to tab 279, please. That's P283, P529, tab 410.

9 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, Your Honour, one moment. Sorry for the

10 interruption.

11 Q. Tab 279 contains a conversation, Mr. Krajisnik, between you and

12 your brother Mirko, on the 22nd of June, 1992. At the beginning of the

13 conversation, we see you and Mirko talking about a copy of a document

14 regarding the establishment of the war commission. That's on the first

15 page. But then if we could turn to page 2 of the English and 0915 of

16 your -- of the B/C/S, Mr. Krajisnik, that's at the beginning of the bottom

17 half of the page for you.

18 And, Your Honours, in English it's the same. It's the beginning

19 of the second half of the -- of that page.

20 Mirko Krajisnik speaking: Listen, please, apart from the thing

21 that we talked about, what's her name, Vlatka Krsmanovic, she's some kind

22 of professor from Sarajevo, do you know her?

23 You say: Yes.

24 Mirko: She is allegedly detained up there.

25 Momcilo Krajisnik: And who wants to intervene?

1 Mirko: Town wants her back. Mirko Pejanovic.

2 Who?

3 Mirko Pejanovic.

4 He does?

5 Yes, not him but the town.

6 And then continuing on to the next page in both versions, Mirko

7 says: "She is detained. Can she be exchanged so that she can come back?

8 She is a Serb.

9 Momcilo Krajisnik: A Serb, are you kidding?

10 Mirko: Is she a Croat then?

11 Momcilo: Sorry?

12 Mirko: What is she then? I don't know.

13 Momcilo: Okay, people here think: We have many men, so they want

14 one woman. Let it go, Mirko, for God's sake. Pejanovic is only asking

15 for matters that interest him. Release people from Dobrinja, that one

16 from ... the one that Bradina has from Novi Grad. Say hello to him and

17 tell him please that there are in Bradina ... Serbs. Let him engage a bit

18 more as a Serb. They should let it go.

19 Mirko: Okay, so that means ...

20 Momcilo: ... you tell him.

21 Mirko: Fine.

22 Momcilo: People will be released. There is a committee for

23 that. You should not be dealing with it. He is now on such position

24 that ...

25 Now, in connection with your brother's inquiry on behalf of

1 Mr. Pejanovic about the release of someone held by the Serbs, surprisingly

2 a Serb, you advise your brother to back off because, in part, there is a

3 committee for that purpose. That's a reference to the Commission for

4 Exchange, isn't it, Mr. Krajisnik?

5 A. I don't know who this woman is, and I don't know what committee

6 is -- this is all about. All I know is that Mr. Pejanovic occasionally

7 interceded with me to have somebody released. I did all I could and he

8 didn't do enough.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please focus on the question that is put to you.

10 You --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I answered the question.

12 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. -- I didn't say that you -- I asked you to

13 focus on the question, that is to leave out what is not asked and to

14 answer to the question asked to you.

15 The question was whether this was the committee for exchange.

16 Somewhere in your answer you say, "I don't know what committee it was."

17 So the answer is simply, I can't tell you because I don't remember what

18 the committee was I was talking about. That's the question. Not about

19 whether you knew the woman, whether or not -- that's all --

20 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please focus on the question and answer the

22 questions as they are put to you.

23 MR. JOSSE: Could we just have the interpretation of what

24 Mr. Krajisnik just said, please?

25 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Krajisnik was speaking at the same time as

1 the judge, so he do not get interpreted. What he said was, "That's what I

2 said."

3 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you said far more, and I'm trying to

5 draw your attention to the fact that we are not have five answers, four of

6 which are not a response to any question put to you but just to receive an

7 answer to the question which was put to you.

8 Yes, please proceed.

9 MR. TIEGER:

10 Q. Perhaps it will be of assistance, then, to turn to tab 282,

11 P292 KID, P529, tab 409. This is a conversation between you,

12 Mr. Krajisnik, and Momcilo Mandic on the 26th of June, 1992. Perhaps to

13 orient you, this is the day after your conversation that we looked at

14 before, when Mr. Mandic advised you that the ociscen, the cleansing or

15 mopping up operations, had been taken care of.

16 In this conversation, in the early part, Milijana calls on your

17 behalf indicating to Mr. Mandic that the president would like to speak to

18 him. You get on the phone and say: "All right, are you a traitor as

19 everybody else?"

20 Mandic: God forbid.

21 And then at the bottom of page 1 of the English, and should be

22 about the top of page 2 of your version, Mr. Krajisnik, you ask him:

23 "Momo, tell me, how does it go?"

24 He says: "Well, I am not up to date with what is going on in that

25 lower part, the main one but as for this one - it is going well."

1 And then the conversation continues about six or seven lines

2 down. You say: "Two things. I actually wanted to see if Stanisic was

3 there, to see with him what is happening with this, so it means that what

4 we agreed upon was not respected."

5 Mandic: Yes.

6 Krajisnik: There is still a half chance today, and tomorrow it

7 will be finished.

8 ...

9 Krajisnik: It's a big problem with Alija, has that one been

10 finished, that is awful, as of today we finish it all, you know.

11 Mandic: Here there is something pounding.

12 Krajisnik: Huh?

13 Mandic: It could be heard that they pound.

14 Krajisnik: Yes, that is. Has he made it down there or not -

15 it's all over now. Secondly, have you released the one I told you about

16 by any chance?

17 And before I move on to that discussion, let me just ask you a

18 couple of quick questions, Mr. Krajisnik. First of all, the reference to

19 Stanisic earlier in the conversation is a reference to Mico Stanisic;

20 correct?

21 A. Yes, Mico Stanisic.

22 Q. And the pounding that Mr. Mandic referred to is artillery

23 shelling; correct?

24 A. Possibly, probably, most probably.

25 Q. Now, the conversation continues, if we turn to page 3 of the

1 English, and it would be page 0984, I believe, of your version,

2 Mr. Krajisnik.

3 MR. JOSSE: I'm sorry, Your Honour, because I don't know exactly

4 where this is going, but I'm a bit surprised my learned friend didn't read

5 the three or four lines after where he last left off, because --

6 MR. TIEGER: I'll be happy to do that, that's fine.

7 MR. JOSSE: I'm not going to comment. Thank you.

8 MR. TIEGER: It would have been incorporated, but this is just as

9 easy a way to do it.

10 Q. "Secondly, have you released the one I told you about by any

11 chance?"

12 Mandic: "Yes, I have."

13 MR. TIEGER: And here, Your Honours, of course we are in the

14 middle of page 2 of the English.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MR. TIEGER:

17 Q. Krajisnik: Yes.

18 Mandic: He left for Vrbanja one hour ago.

19 Krajisnik: Thanks God.

20 Mandic: Karamehmedovic, right?

21 Krajisnik: Yes, that's him.

22 Mandic: Well, he is gone.

23 Krajisnik: Let me also ask you what about this Savic Milos, since

24 it's his brother, that is really ...

25 Mandic: President, I put it on the list, the first next exchange

1 and it will be finished.

2 Krajisnik: Check it down there, do you have anyone there, can you

3 contact someone?

4 As we've seen earlier, Mr. Krajisnik, that's a reference to your

5 efforts to assist Mr. Savic in getting his family member exchanged,

6 correct, through Mr. Mandic?

7 A. Yes. That's what it was all about.

8 Q. Then the conversation continues on the next page, page 3 of the

9 English, at the top.

10 Mandic: There is this Vukovic, the member of the youth

11 organisation, a Serb, who is criticising us because we have 400 prisoners

12 here, you know?

13 Krajisnik: Who is criticising?

14 Mandic: I've got 400.

15 Krajisnik: And who was criticising?

16 Mandic: This Vukovic Filip, this member of youth organisation,

17 Serb, he says, clean it, but for them they are ...

18 Krajisnik: Filip Vukovic?

19 Mandic: Yes.

20 Krajisnik: Communist?

21 Mandic: Yes, yes.

22 Krajisnik: What does he want?

23 Mandic: He is the president of that exchange commission.

24 Krajisnik: Their commission?

25 Mandic: Yes. And what is it that he wants?

1 Mandic: War prisoners, no, they are ex for them. They are hardly

2 interested in people, they are interested in ammunition and meat and now

3 we let those women and children go to Vrbanja, to go to their own people,

4 he says that's ethnic cleansing what we do.

5 Krajisnik: He does.

6 Mandic: ... here ... when ... I will fucking ...

7 Krajisnik: And where is he now?

8 Mandic: Somewhere there, I do not know.

9 Krajisnik: With them, isn't he?

10 Mandic: Yes.

11 Krajisnik: That means he is theirs?

12 Mandic: Yes, yes, yes.

13 Krajisnik: God, traitors are all around.

14 Mr. Krajisnik, first of all --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, I don't know if this is in

16 order, but there seems to be a considerable difference between the meaning

17 of one of these sentences and the English translation.

18 When Momcilo Mandic says: This Vukovic, Filip from the youth

19 organization, Serb, says, you are clearing or cleansing, however in their

20 eyes, they are -- that's what it says in Serbian, whereas the English

21 translation makes it look like the youth organisation man said, "Clean

22 it." Which seems to be quite the opposite.

23 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, that's the fifth line down from the top

24 of page --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see it. You'd say the imperative is now a

1 description of what he blames that is done. Is that a correct

2 understanding of your -- and I'm looking at the interpreters.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: "Clean it now" is "you are cleaning or cleansing"?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Correct.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

7 MR. TIEGER: Is it helpful to read back what was just read?

8 Mr. Krajisnik --

9 JUDGE ORIE: We have to find a way that this is now properly in

10 our material.

11 MR. TIEGER: Of course.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, could you please -- I suggest the

13 following to the parties, that I take the original exhibit, that I just

14 change it with -- in the translation and add to it that "I did it" and

15 that it's -- and I make a reference to the transcript of today where the

16 correction was, because otherwise we have to distribute it again and

17 again, and everyone does the same in his own copy.

18 MR. JOSSE: I agree.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Registrar, I would like to have the

20 original of this exhibit.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

22 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. My only question, I take it that because the interpreter was

24 speaking, I don't know if that translation got back to Mr. Krajisnik. I

25 presume --

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Krajisnik, the interpreters, the English

2 interpreter, the interpretation from B/C/S into English was corrected for

3 us because there was a mistake. Since you, I take it, read the B/C/S and

4 listen to the B/C/S, it has no impact on your understanding of the

5 question.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, why did you call Mr. Vukovic a traitor?

9 A. Well, I said it because he accused the Serb side of committing

10 ethnic cleansing, whereas Mandic is indirectly denying it and saying that

11 the man is a Serb. I'm saying he is a traitor if --

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter does not understand this. Could

13 Mr. Krajisnik please repeat?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, the interpreters had difficulties in

15 translating what you said. Could you please resume where you said, "I am

16 saying he is a traitor if --" and then continue.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this telephone conversation,

18 Mr. Mandic tells me that Vukovic is a Serb and that he is accusing the

19 Serb side, in other words him, of committing ethnic cleansing, and Mandic

20 curses, mentioning his mother, and says that it's not true. And then I

21 say, "What a traitor," because Mr. Mandic denied the accusation. And let

22 me just add: At that time, there was a great desire on the part of

23 civilians, women and children and others, to move from one part of town to

24 the other, and I mean primarily Serbs, and that wish wasn't granted to

25 them. They did not have the freedom of movement to move to safer

1 territory. That is why I uttered that word.

2 MR. TIEGER:

3 Q. And where is it in the conversation that Mr. Mandic says that it's

4 not true?

5 A. I'll tell you straight away. When he says -- I'm very sorry that

6 I have to use this language. He said it here, fuck his mother and so on.

7 He is cursing his mother because the man is accusing us, and he doesn't

8 want to go on, go forward with the exchanges, because he views exchanges

9 as ethnic cleansing. He doesn't want to go forward with the exchanges

10 because he sees them as ethnic cleansing, and before that, Mandic says

11 that they are not interested in prisoners anyway.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, where now does Mr. Mandic - because

13 that was the question - say that it's not true? If you curse someone's

14 mother, it could mean a lot of things, isn't it? It could mean, well, I'm

15 not very happy because he says what actually happens, or I'm not very

16 happy because he is -- he is not telling the truth. It could be anything.

17 So therefore, when Mr. Tieger asked you where does Mr. Mandic say

18 that it's not true, I at least, in your answer, have not found the place,

19 and the mere reference to the cursing of his mother could mean anything.

20 So perhaps, if you --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the way I understand it, and

22 the way I understood it then, Your Honour, is this: They don't want

23 exchanges, they only want ammunition and meat. And then he cursed the

24 man's mother. That's how I understood it. He says that's ethnic

25 cleansing. That's how I understood it then and how I understood it then

1 [as interpreted]. He says they are interested only in ammunition and

2 meat.

3 JUDGE ORIE: That's at least how Mr. Mandic translates -- let's

4 not further comment on it. It's -- I've carefully listened to your --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mandic interprets it that way. I

6 was not abreast of what they were doing there. The point of this

7 conversation were the two persons to be released. All the rest is just by

8 the way.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But by the way is -- whether it's on the way or

10 by the way, it's there.

11 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

12 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you made reference quite a number of times, in

14 fact, to events in August of 1992 in connection with the camps in -- the

15 Serb-controlled camps in Bosnia. Can we agree or do you contest that the

16 focus on camps in August, the attention paid to it by Bosnian Serb

17 officials and by the Bosnian Serb leadership, occurred only after and in

18 the wake of an international outcry about camps following the entry into

19 Omarska by the international media and the worldwide dissemination of

20 information about it?

21 A. No, Mr. Prosecutor. No. And I'll tell you why that is the case,

22 and I said that a few moments ago as well. Ostojic took those journalists

23 there. That is to say, that before that they had received information

24 that everything was fine. So then they later established a commission to

25 find out what was going on. I didn't know about it at the time but I see

1 it now. It's all in documents now. They said that these newspapers were

2 not telling the truth. I presented today the press release of the

3 government. I'm saying what is contained in documents and what I heard at

4 the time.

5 Q. So, are you trying -- let me see if we have this straight. You're

6 trying to tell the Court that this was a proactive, humanitarian effort by

7 the Bosnian Serb leadership to -- to what, find out what was happening in

8 the camps, establish what was happening in the camps and so they decided

9 to bring the media along?

10 A. No. The journalists wanted to visit the prisons and that was made

11 possible to them in the presence of Mr. Ostojic and Mr. Bozanic, and they

12 toured all the prisons and they met up with the military. The conclusion

13 of Ostojic and Bozanic was positive. You have their statements. And the

14 journalists afterwards wrote nothing but the worst, and after that came

15 the press release of the government. That's what I know from that time.

16 Then they established commissions to establish what the actual state of

17 affairs was.

18 I'll bring you Mr. Ostojic's statement tomorrow. I'll find it

19 somewhere. The one about the journalists. From that time.

20 Q. It is correct that, by the end of June -- end of July 1992, there

21 was increasing pressure on the Bosnian Serb leadership about the mounting

22 suspicion by the international community that large numbers of Muslims and

23 Croats were being held in Serb detention facilities. That's correct,

24 isn't it?

25 A. It is correct that terrible accusations were made by the

1 international community in contacts with our representatives. Well, not

2 terrible accusations but accusations, yes. And that is why they were sent

3 to visit all the camps or prisons.

4 Q. Okay. And before the entry into those camps, the officials

5 running the camps were notified and told to prepare the camps in so far as

6 possible because the journalists were on their way?

7 A. I don't know. I don't know about that, and I never did anything

8 about that in my own line of work. I only heard about it later when they

9 came back. They reported to us that everything was fine. Or, rather, not

10 that everything was fine but that their opinion was that everything was

11 fine. That was the first time Ostojic and Bozanic were in those prisons

12 too. I did not receive information that everything had been prepared in

13 advance. On the contrary, that they paid a visit with the journalists and

14 everything was fine over there, what they saw there. My impression was

15 that that was correct.

16 Q. Can we have the next item distributed, please? And this will need

17 a number, Your Honour, when the Registry and Court gets it.

18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1247, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

20 MR. TIEGER:

21 Q. P1247 is an urgent and confidential communication by General

22 Mladic to the commander personally, giving an order in light -- in the

23 goal of preparation of the POW camps for visits and making possible for

24 journalists and members of the International Red Cross to visit them. And

25 the order indicates at item 1: Immediately undertake measures to arrange

1 camps in your zones of responsibility and prepare them for visits by

2 foreign journalists and International Red Cross team.

3 2, the plan is to visit the following camps: Omarska, Trnopolje

4 in the zone of 1st Krajina Corps and Lukavica prison in the zone of

5 Sarajevo Romanija Corps. Also prepare all other POW camps in your zone of

6 responsibility.

7 Item 3, General Mladic indicates that they will be informed of the

8 precise time of the visits.

9 And turning the page, item 5 provides that, prepare material

10 evidence regarding the crimes done by the enemy and present it in

11 appropriate manner to those teams. Video tapes, photographs, objects, and

12 so on.

13 Now, among other things, Mr. Krajisnik, this again indicates that

14 Omarska was anything but a secret camp. Correct? At least not a secret

15 to -- within Republika Srpska.

16 A. This is an order from Mr. Mladic. This is the first time I see

17 this. I can't even read it. But I'm telling you. Well, I mean, I can

18 make no comments.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, if you want to read it, of course --

20 oh, you mean it's illegible.

21 Any better copy available for Mr. Krajisnik?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I heard it. I listened to it.

23 You don't really have to make that much of an effort. I believe that this

24 is correct. But this is the first time that I see this order.

25 MR. JOSSE: Mr. Krajisnik has said that, "I can make no comments,"

1 is what it says in the transcript.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that that is indeed what

3 Mr. Krajisnik said.

4 MR. JOSSE: Indeed. I'm sorry, and I have just said that that is

5 what Mr. Krajisnik had just said and that is his answer to the question.

6 In my submission, frankly, Your Honour, is a question like that

7 calls for an answer such as the one Mr. Krajisnik has just given.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I, as a matter of fact, I was -- I was listening, not

9 reading at that time, and I must have understood that, perhaps wrongly,

10 that Mr. Krajisnik said, "I can't even read it." Yes. "I can't even read

11 it." And then he says, "I can make no comments."

12 Of course my concern was that not having been able to read it,

13 that that would contribute to not being able to make comments.

14 MR. JOSSE: Well, I'm very grateful for that. Perhaps Your Honour

15 could clarify with Mr. Krajisnik whether he meant no comment because he

16 couldn't read it, or no comment because the question was not one that he

17 could comment upon.

18 JUDGE ORIE: You followed what Mr. Josse just said, Mr. Krajisnik.

19 You also said that you heard what Mr. Tieger was saying. It was -- it

20 was -- which you said I'd like to read it in order to see whether I can

21 make any comment, or would you like to leave it as it is?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's not necessary for me to

23 read it. I've already said I heard what Mr. Tieger said, and my answer is

24 that I cannot comment upon this because this is the first time I see it.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, can't say that this is now an uninformed

1 decision.

2 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

3 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 And I'm sure it's not intended by my learned friend, but I just

5 want to caution against objections that have any tendency to suggest to

6 the witness what his answer might be to further inquiries by either the

7 Prosecution or the Court. And I will say that the implications of -- the

8 reason these questions are being put, in part, is because of

9 Mr. Krajisnik's position, and the suggestion that -- I mean, he's free to

10 say he has no comment, but the questions are completely appropriate and

11 any suggestion -- I reject any suggestion to the contrary, and I think

12 it's -- they are misplaced.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't understand Mr. Josse's comments at this

14 moment as any criticism to your questioning.

15 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Is that true, Mr. Josse?

17 MR. JOSSE: I could argue with what my learned friend has just

18 said but I --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it was not your intention --

20 MR. JOSSE: I'm not going to at the moment.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

22 MR. TIEGER:

23 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you alluded to the discrepancy between the view of

24 the camp by Mr. Ostojic and another gentleman you mentioned, and the view

25 of the camps by the members of the international media and other

1 representatives of the international community who entered the camps. So

2 I -- is it fair to say that's a reflection of what I had mentioned

3 earlier, that is, the international outcry that followed the dissemination

4 of information about Omarska on approximately August 5th, 1992?

5 A. Yes. I mean, the 5th of August is after Mr. Ostojic's visit. Let

6 me just clarify that and then you can put your question. So it came after

7 Mr. Ostojic's visit, as far as I can remember. And then please go ahead

8 with your question so I will follow.

9 Q. What camp or camps did Mr. Ostojic visit?

10 A. Precisely in Prijedor. And in Kozarski Vjesnik he gave that

11 interview. You have it. It's in your material. I would have to look it

12 up. Kozarski Vjesnik, he gave an interview that was entitled without

13 censorship. He had a press conference with members of the press.

14 Q. Then let's examine what occurred after the visit to Omarska by the

15 international journalists and the dissemination, internationally, of that

16 information. So can I ask you to turn to tab 301, first?

17 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, that will need a number.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1248, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

21 MR. TIEGER:

22 Q. P1248 is a press release dated the 7th of August, 1992.

23 A. That's the one that I submitted today. That's the document that I

24 was talking about. This one. That they were denying it.

25 Q. What do you mean "they were denying it"? You mean the

1 Republika Srpska government -- Republika Srpksa authorities were denying

2 it?

3 A. The government, the government. I meant the government. The

4 government was denying it after the visit.

5 Q. Well, are you suggesting that the government was speaking solely

6 on behalf of itself or essentially presenting the position of the Bosnian

7 Serb leadership generally regarding Omarska camp and the other camps?

8 A. I was not abreast of this when the government made this statement.

9 The government did this on the basis of their minister's visit to Omarska

10 and their report to the government. Their press release was autonomous.

11 I saw it here. I hadn't seen it before.

12 I heard about all of this from them. I was not there. I did not

13 hear anything. I didn't hear from foreign journalists. I mean I heard

14 about it from Ostojic, the government, what the position was. They were

15 criticising CNN here, that was not doing its work objectively, as they had

16 put it.

17 Q. This occurred a day after a Presidency session at which Mr. Djeric

18 and you were present and in which the issues concerning Omarska were --

19 and other camps were discussed. Was there anything about this press

20 release with which you disagreed, which you thought should have been added

21 or omitted?

22 A. I don't know. I mean, well, I know what is contained in the press

23 release but I don't know what this is concretely. I mean, if you were to

24 give me this record, perhaps I could make a comment. They wrote this

25 themselves, probably on the basis of their own insight. May I get that

1 record and then I can comment upon it.

2 Q. Well, let's look at the press release first, Mr. Krajisnik.

3 Dr. Djeric begins by noting, in the first full paragraph, he's -- he cites

4 the unforgettable image of what he describes as a thin man. And then says

5 that it was not even noted that there were not any women and children

6 among the imprisoned, that all prisoners were men fit for military

7 service.

8 What's the significance of that focus, Mr. Krajisnik, that they

9 were men fit for military service?

10 A. I assume that CNN had said that there were women and children

11 there and that this was his response. And then the thin man, well, I

12 don't know. He thought that they were only prisoners. That was his

13 position on the basis of seeing people who were there.

14 I'm not ruling out the possibility that it was different, but I'm

15 just telling you what kind of information was provided.

16 Q. If we continue on to page 4 of the English, and page 8 -- 9886 of

17 your version, Mr. Krajisnik, the press release continues: "Competent

18 organs will present to the public data and evidence that will prove that

19 the persons imprisoned in Omarska have taken part in armed combats against

20 the army of Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

21 Where did Dr. Djeric get that information and what did he tell you

22 and the other persons gathered at the Presidency meeting the day before

23 about it?

24 A. I don't know what he said at that session. I cannot remember. I

25 can just assume that he got this from those who were there, and those who

1 were there got it from those who were from Prijedor. I assume. There is

2 no other way. And down here, he says the conditions are not proper

3 because the other side does not want to have an exchange.

4 Q. So that's another reflection of the exchange problem that we

5 discussed earlier, being cited again by Dr. Djeric.

6 Now, what information did you have about the imprisonment of

7 persons in Omarska over the age of 60, heavily wounded and sick?

8 A. I know that Mr. Karadzic had issued instructions to release

9 persons over the age of 60. Probably this information was that there were

10 some elderly people there. I assume. I cannot remember exactly what the

11 information was at the time.

12 However, what was carried out was based on information -- or,

13 rather, as far as the negative things are concerned, orders were issued

14 to -- well, at least in my presence, there was not a situation when

15 something impermissible was referred to and when it was not said

16 subsequently that that should be corrected. I mean, I'm just speaking off

17 the cuff now, but it has to be contained in these conclusions as well.

18 There were some decisions that were passed by those under whose

19 jurisdiction this was.

20 Well, if you have the record, you will see that that is the way it

21 was. Probably, I don't know. I cannot remember now.

22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, this would be an appropriate time, but I

23 see the Court is looking at the transcript and may not wish to adjourn

24 immediately.

25 JUDGE ORIE: No. There is no specific reason. I was looking for

1 another matter.

2 We'll adjourn until ten minutes to 1.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I think Mr. Josse would like to raise a

6 few matters, but the Chamber it would like to turn into private session

7 for a second.

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6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE ORIE: And before I given you an opportunity to briefly

8 address the Court in relation to the scheduling of re-examination, I'd

9 first like to deliver a statement of the Chamber on the submission of

10 photographic material.

11 I'd like to address the parties regarding the photographic

12 material on destruction of property. On the 12th of June, after having

13 reviewed the material, the Defence stated in court that they were not in a

14 position to confirm the information provided in the explanatory schedule

15 accompanying the photographs. The Chamber requests the Prosecution to

16 provide the source of the information contained in the four columns of the

17 explanatory schedule entitled municipality, location, object, and date

18 destroyed to the extent that the source can be specified in a

19 non-argumentative manner.

20 The Chamber notes the concern of the Defence regarding the column

21 entitled evidence/information in which the Prosecution links each

22 photograph with other evidence in this case. This information should not

23 be left in and the Chamber will make its own links and draw its own

24 conclusions regarding the material.

25 If the Prosecution wishes to present these links in its final

1 written briefs, they may do so. But the Chamber reminds the parties of

2 the limited purpose of these visualisations.

3 Then the Defence indicated Mr. Krajisnik would also like to

4 address Chamber regarding this material. The Chamber invites

5 Mr. Krajisnik to raise his objections by clearly specifying the particular

6 photograph and his concern and to be ready to do so by the first court

7 session on Wednesday, the 28th of June.

8 With regard to the related CD containing material on destruction

9 of property, the Defence inquired about the commentary which accompanies

10 the video and asked whether the Chamber would view the CD without

11 listening to the audio. The Prosecution had no objection to this. The

12 Chamber will therefore refrain from listening to the audio. The

13 Prosecution is invited to submit the material to the registrar who is

14 directed to assign provisional exhibit numbers and to inform the parties

15 and the Chamber accordingly.

16 This concludes this statement.

17 And just for you, Mr. Krajisnik, when -- you'll have an

18 opportunity to raise objections against these photographic material, the

19 Chamber expects you not to reopen the whole of the debate on whether more

20 damage was done elsewhere or who is to be responsible for the damage. I

21 mean, what we expect, as a matter of fact, is that, for example, you say,

22 look at this photograph, I clearly recognise this to be Doboj, and you can

23 see there is a road sign there saying Doboj, and it's presented as

24 Sarajevo material. That is the kind of comment we would expect you to

25 give and not to open a debate on material which mainly serves to visualise

1 what is established or is perhaps established, at least material -- to

2 materialise -- to visualise damage which is supported by other evidence.

3 If that's clear to you, then, Mr. Josse, I'll give you an

4 opportunity now to address the Chamber on the re-examination matter.

5 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Your Honour, as I mentioned earlier, the Defence

6 had assumed that the questions from the Bench in relation to this

7 particular witness would come before re-examination. This assumption, and

8 I accept it is an assumption, was based on how we saw the timetable as

9 having been constructed. In particular, we would invite the Chamber to

10 examine what was said on the 23rd of May of this year, at the very top of

11 page 24605 of the transcript: "From that day on, the cross-examination

12 and the questions by the Judges will take together no more than 15 days."

13 And similarly, on the 30th of May, at page 24899: "And we were

14 talking in about in 15 days, what has not been done yet is 15 days was for

15 Prosecution and Chamber. We have not made a division there yet."

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I can imagine you don't have to -- I'm not

17 blaming the Defence at all for being confused about it. And that is --

18 you understand, this is an understatement.

19 MR. JOSSE: I'm grateful to Your Honour.

20 Could I be very frank? We would much rather, of course,

21 re-examine later rather than earlier. Having said that, being as helpful

22 as I can, if the Chamber, in effect, insists that I, because it will be

23 me, tomorrow, start this re-examination, then I will go through as much of

24 the material that Mr. Krajisnik has presented as I think is prudent.

25 The Chamber has said, and I don't, with respect, criticise the

1 Chamber for this at all, that it's up to the parties to decide whether to

2 deal with this material. Well, frankly, Your Honour, the Prosecution were

3 never going to deal with it to any great extent. Understandably. It's

4 material that the witness has produced. Their time is extremely limited,

5 and by its nature it was material that would likely, at least I hope it's

6 likely, to help the cause of the witness who is also the accused. So we

7 will try and deal with it in as much detail as we can, but also, I hope,

8 in a sensible way.

9 So that is where I would start tomorrow, if I have to, but I do

10 emphasise we would much rather go after the Bench, as far as this witness

11 is concerned. We submit that he is an in a different category to any

12 other witness in this case in this regard.

13 That's putting it in a nutshell, I hope.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I think I asked you to give an assessment

15 of the time you thought you would need.

16 MR. JOSSE: Well, Your Honour did.

17 JUDGE ORIE: If you say I would rather think it over for another

18 night, we would accept that. But of course this Chamber has to schedule

19 as well.

20 MR. JOSSE: Well, I suspect a day of -- a court day is what I have

21 in mind. I also have a series of clearing up questions in my notebook,

22 some of which I'll want to ask. Others of which I might be able to

23 discard. And generally, Your Honour, Mr. Stewart and I need to decide on

24 whether there are other wider issues we would like to return to that have

25 been dealt with in cross-examination.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 MR. JOSSE: But --

3 JUDGE ORIE: If you're assessment is one day, I don't think that

4 it would find any objection by the Chamber. Of course, we have given it

5 some thought as well, and we've also looked at the statistics in this

6 respect, and so therefore, when further thinking about it and preparing

7 for it, I would not encourage you to bring the time further down.

8 MR. JOSSE: That's also very helpful.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Tieger. I think is there any -- other

10 matter?

11 MR. JOSSE: No. Your Honour, we will continue preparing this

12 afternoon on the assumption that we do have to start.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And once, if we have -- if we have taken a decision,

14 as always, the Chamber will try to communicate the decision even if not

15 yet delivered in court, to you already so in order not to further -- to

16 make it more difficult for you, being unaware or uncertain about certain

17 matters but of course only once we have made up our minds.

18 MR. JOSSE: Yet again, thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

20 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

21 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I know you indicated you wanted to look at the

23 August 6th session of the Presidency. But before turning to that, I have

24 to return to another tab that I went past earlier, and that's tab 283.

25 MR. TIEGER: That's P439, Your Honour.

1 Q. And, Mr. Krajisnik, I mentioned that in connection with the

2 June 26 intercept between you and Mr. Mandic during which Mr. Vukovic was

3 discussed. And if I could first bring your attention to the upper

4 left-hand corner of the first page. It has a fax printout on it, as you

5 can see. The very top, Mr. Krajisnik, at the -- at the left, just to --

6 so you can see that that's a fax that was sent on the 26th of June, 1992.

7 And as you can see, it's to the central commission for the exchange of

8 persons. If you'll turn to the last page of the document, here you'll see

9 it's stamped and signed "State Commission Chairman, Filip Vukovic," with

10 an attachment which is not contained here, that is a list of prisoners

11 from 1 through 3.441.

12 And then in particular, Mr. Krajisnik, I wanted to bring your

13 attention to page -- the bottom of page 4 of the English, it's the

14 second-to-last paragraph of the fax, where Mr. Vukovic states: "We

15 believe that, once your side has fulfilled the previously arranged

16 exchanges, we should embark on the release of all imprisoned persons and

17 detainees in accordance with the agreement reached at UNPROFOR on 9 June

18 1992. The attachment contains the list of" -- that's the attachment that

19 we just referred to of the prisoners from 1 to 3.441. "The attachment

20 contains the list of imprisoned persons and detainees according to our

21 records. It is our opinion that once released, the detainees should be

22 sent to their places of residence, i.e., to their domicile address.

23 Otherwise, this would signify typical deportation, exile and ethnic

24 cleansing of the area. Such persons should also be issued with

25 appropriate certificates to prevent arrests for the second or third time."

1 Mr. Krajisnik, I simply wanted to ask you this: Based on the date

2 of the fax, the date of your conversation with Mr. Mandic and the

3 substance of the allegation contained in the fax and related to you by

4 Mr. Mandic, it would appear that this is the allegation to which

5 Mr. Mandic was referring in his conversation with you. I simply wanted to

6 know whether you agree, disagree or don't know.

7 A. I don't know anything about this. I didn't see this document

8 before. And I don't know what kind of agreement they had.

9 Q. All right. Let's turn next, then, to tab 300, and my apologies to

10 the interpreters by the way. I can see by the length of time we waited

11 for the translation to Mr. Krajisnik, that I was speaking too fast.

12 Tab 300 appears to need a number, Your Honour, but I don't believe

13 that's likely to be the case. It's the 24th Session of the Presidency on

14 6 August, so I apparently do not have the exhibit number handy.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The 24th Presidency session should be P65, tab 187

16 and/or P583, tab 83.

17 MR. TIEGER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I had indicated earlier that the day before the

19 press release, which we looked at, that is the press release by Dr. Djeric

20 regarding CNN broadcast of Omarska, that there had been a Presidency

21 session. You indicated you wanted to look at that. This session was

22 attended by Dr. Karadzic, Mrs. Plavsic, yourself, Dr. Koljevic and

23 Mr. Djeric. The last -- I will call it item on the agenda because many of

24 them appear under item 2 but the last portion of that session seems to be

25 devoted to the issue of prisoners detained in prisons in Serbian territory

1 and a discussion about that. There is a discussion about their division

2 into categories, and then the conclusion, well, discussion about the

3 division into categories, pointing out that there should be compliance

4 with international conventions, completely humane treatment of prisoners

5 of war is advised, et cetera, and that food, clothes, are made at our

6 expense and then there is a conclusion, "The Ministry of the Interior of

7 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina will be ordered to examine

8 through its municipal branches the behaviour of all civilian authorities

9 and individuals guarding prisoners of war. The information will be passed

10 to the MUP which will be -- which will pass it on to the Presidency of the

11 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

12 Now, is that the order to investigate what the situation with

13 prisoners and detainees in facilities run by the Serbian authorities, to

14 which you've been referring, or to which you referred earlier at various

15 times, that is the Presidency asked the MUP to investigate?

16 A. Yes. And that's related to that statement by the Prime Minister,

17 that there are some inhumane -- I mean, that the accommodation of

18 prisoners is not good, et cetera. We had just had that report, the press

19 release or the communique.

20 Q. Okay. Now, you've referred earlier I think to the very firm stand

21 taken by the Presidency and strict action or resolute action in response

22 to information about the camps. What was the -- what was the MUP directed

23 to do? What was the focus and purpose of their investigation?

24 A. I'll just repeat, and that is that. There was a standing

25 instruction to investigate all irregularities, to punish perpetrators or

1 offenders and to improve the accommodation for prisoners. There was

2 always a positive reaction to reports and measures were taken. That's

3 what I have been saying. There was not a single meeting wherein measures

4 failed to be taken and there was a failure to respond to reports of

5 irregularities. At least none that I attended. I don't know who wrote

6 those instructions, that order. Maybe the Prime Minister. I mean, this

7 order from the record.

8 Q. Okay. So we can -- you mentioned that so that we can see the

9 Presidency's attitude toward camps through the investigations that

10 followed?

11 A. I'm telling you that there was this visit made to those camps --

12 prisons, rather, and certain irregularities were found. That's what the

13 Prime Minister referred to in his report, insufficient space, inadequate

14 accommodation, conditions, et cetera. And that's probably what the

15 reaction of the Presidency was, namely that it should be investigated.

16 All I remember is that the Presidency reacted in no uncertain terms that

17 they wanted it investigated.

18 Q. All right. Let's take a look at tab 305, please.

19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, that's P529, tab 295, P583, tab 90.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a commission that went to

21 visit, on instructions from the minister.

22 MR. TIEGER:

23 Q. Okay. Let's take a quick look at that report. First of all, the

24 commission members of that report were Vojin Bera, as we see at the end,

25 Vaso Skondric, Ranko Mijic, and Jugoslav Rodic.

1 And we can turn back, if necessary, to -- my recollection,

2 Mr. Krajisnik, is that Mr. Ranko Mijic was one of the persons responsible

3 for the work and categorisation of detainees according to the Drljaca

4 order of or report to the CSB Banja Luka of 31 May 1992. "A mixed group

5 consisting of national, public, and military security investigators shall

6 be responsible for the work with and categorisation of detainees, they

7 shall organise themselves respecting the parity principle. Mirko Jesic,

8 Ranko Mijic --"

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters apologise. Can you give us the

10 reference in B/C/S? Thank you.

11 MR. TIEGER: That's tab 262, item number 3.

12 Q. And I was lending in Lieutenant Colonel Majsterovic shall be

13 responsible for their work.

14 Mr. Krajisnik, does that strike you as something of a problem,

15 that one of the four persons on the commission established to investigate

16 irregularities in Omarska, among other places, was one of the persons

17 involved in the operation of the facility and who might himself have been

18 responsible for such irregularities?

19 A. I really don't know what Mijic's function was. I mean, I cannot

20 remember -- well, possibly you're right. I cannot remember now who Mijic

21 was and what position he held. If he was that, then it's not right for

22 him to be on the commission to investigate, if he was one of the

23 perpetrators. I don't know.

24 Q. Let's go to the substance of the report, if we can. On page 4,

25 under the general title of "reception centres in the municipality," that's

1 page 4 of the English, and also page -- begins at page 4 of your version,

2 then it moves on to page 5. The commission describes what happened in

3 Omarska in respect to the what he calls their investigations. "After

4 completing their investigations," the report states, "the operatives

5 engaged would, depending on the results, sort the persons who had been

6 brought in into three categories, according to the degree of their

7 personal responsibility in the armed rebellion. Category 1 consisted of

8 persons suspected of the gravest crimes, that is people who had directly

9 participated in or organised the -- what he calls the armed rebellion.

10 Category 2, persons suspected of assisting in arming. And category 3,

11 persons who were captured in and brought in from areas where there had

12 been fighting but had happened to be there because their extremists had

13 prevented them from withdrawing to a secure place. During the

14 investigation, no material evidence was found that they had in any way

15 taken part in the armed rebellion."

16 So that's another reflection, Mr. Krajisnik, of the rounding up of

17 Muslims and Croats and their placement into detention facilities,

18 irrespective of whether or not they had participated in what is referred

19 to here as an armed rebellion.

20 A. Well, I mean, there is nothing for me to interpret here. I mean,

21 I don't know what the situation was, and I cannot interpret it in any

22 other way but the way in which this is written. It says that these

23 persons were found there, they couldn't get out and there was no evidence

24 of them having taken part in the rebellion. Now, is it women, children,

25 old people? Is it able-bodied men? I don't know. I mean, that's not

1 written here.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, of course if you ask Mr. Krajisnik

3 whether that's another reflection of it, I mean, if he says yes, then it

4 confirms what is there in writing. If he says -- of course, he could

5 explain that.

6 But, Mr. Krajisnik, if you have no specific knowledge on the

7 matter, you can just say, "I read what it is. I have no further comment

8 on it."

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right. I have no knowledge.

10 I just read what is written here. And I explained what the possible

11 variance could be.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps then an answer in terms of "I have no further

13 knowledge or comment than by reading it," then that would sufficiently

14 clarify the matter.

15 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

16 MR. TIEGER:

17 Q. Mr. Krajisnik I've looked through this report. I don't see any,

18 and I'd ask to you point me to any, reflection of an effort to determine

19 what happened to the detainees during the course of their detention, what

20 crimes were committed against them, how long they languished in detention,

21 notwithstanding the fact that they were -- that they had not participated

22 in any way in what is called an armed rebellion.

23 Can you point me to any part of the report that indicates in any

24 way that either an investigation of a criminal responsibility for their

25 detention or for their treatment while in detention was undertaken or that

1 measures of punishment were recommended?

2 A. Well, I cannot say what measures were taken and whether any

3 measures were taken at all. I don't know about that. I know what

4 happened at the Presidency, that all of this should be investigated. This

5 is a partial report that was made by a central commission, and then they

6 informed the Presidency later on. That's Avlijas and everybody else. I

7 don't have any other knowledge.

8 As to whether they punished people, how and in which way, I don't

9 know about that.

10 Sorry, this is just the first insight of an official commission in

11 these areas, from the outside, that is. It's a different matter that the

12 police in Prijedor probably knew about what the situation was.

13 Q. That's the --

14 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour, one moment.

15 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, was there anything in the report, that is this

16 report, and we'll turn to the other two reports you mentioned in a moment,

17 anything in this report with which you found fault or disagreed?

18 A. Well, these reports misled me because I thought that Trnopolje was

19 an open collection centre where people were seeking shelter. That's what

20 I said to the Presiding Judge. Everybody was saying, and you can see

21 these reports, that this was an open centre. And later on, I realised

22 that there were killed persons there, raped persons there and so on and so

23 forth. So that's the information that I received. And also, they were

24 transferred to the open centre of Trnopolje. That's what is written here.

25 Those who were not supposed to be processed any further. That's the

1 information that I received about Trnopolje at the time when this was

2 being referred to.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Just to verify, were you also misled, in view of

4 Omarska and Keraterm? I mean, it says in very neutral terms, for example,

5 that food was prepared in the Omarska and so-and-so kitchen. I mean about

6 conditions in Omarska, did you -- did you think that this was a misleading

7 report as well?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I never saw this

9 report. The Prosecutor asked me whether there was something here that I

10 had a different view about. And I said that it was only Trnopolje.

11 Because before that, I had information that it was an open centre; whereas

12 later on, here, I found out that it was an unfree prison, to put it

13 mildly.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you must have had the impression from this

15 report, by reading it, that Omarska was fine as well. They had enough

16 showers, food was prepared, basic medical protection was provided; whereas

17 you may have heard some evidence by now, and it's not an adjudicated fact,

18 that this was misleading as well. So I'm just a bit surprised that you

19 say it's misleading in respect of Trnopolje for this and this reason on

20 the basis of what I now have heard --

21 MR. JOSSE: Could we just clarify, Your Honour? Question relates

22 to Mr. Krajisnik's state of knowledge now? Is that right? Not in 1992.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because I do understand from Mr. Krajisnik's

24 testimony that at the time he thought of Trnopolje as an open reception

25 centre, and he says now, by reading, "I didn't see the report at that

1 time," I think he said, but reading it now, it's -- I must say it's

2 misleading because I -- the report says it's an open reception centre

3 where I now hear evidence that it's not. And then it surprised me that

4 Mr. Krajisnik only mentions Trnopolje in this respect since we've heard

5 not only evidence but we have even an adjudicated facts which one would be

6 inclined to qualify as such that would make this report misleading in

7 respect of those facilities as well.

8 MR. JOSSE: I understand. I think Mr. Krajisnik does.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, please, I mean,

11 really, I hadn't read the entire report, and I saw Trnopolje and that's

12 why I reacted. I mean, if you were to ask me now, of course, that was

13 wrong, it was misguiding. Had I read it then, I would have said Omarska

14 was all right. But I hadn't read this so that's why I didn't react. I

15 mean, I didn't read it here and now. I mean, I simply happened to glance

16 at Trnopolje.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said, "I hadn't read the entire report and

18 I saw Trnopolje." Are you talking about -- just looking at it because it

19 is in evidence of course.

20 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I am clear that Mr. Krajisnik means

21 literally now. Now in the last few minutes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. That's clear. You say.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now, that's what I meant.

24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... casting an eye

25 on it at this moment and seeing Trnopolje described as an open reception

1 centre, that that certainly was misleading and, yes, I now do understand.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the only thing I meant.

3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I know it's time for a break but if I

4 could just ask one question before.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

6 MR. TIEGER:

7 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, to your knowledge, who did receive and read this

8 report by the commission related to Omarska and Trnopolje, Keraterm, camps

9 in Sanski Most and other places in Western Bosnia and the Avlijas reports?

10 Who received and made those reports to which you've been referring?

11 A. I saw these reports here. I don't know whether I read it, but I

12 first saw the last page. I don't know whether I managed to read the whole

13 thing. I saw certain irregularities and perhaps I forgot a bit.

14 As for Avlijas and his report, I don't remember that report

15 either. But I saw it here and I read it here. There is a report from

16 Eastern Herzegovina too. As for who else received it, I don't know.

17 I mean, I saw it was there at the government session, among the

18 papers, but I really don't know.

19 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

21 Mr. Krajisnik, I'm instructing you not to speak with anyone about

22 your testimony already given or still to be given, and we'll adjourn for

23 the day and resume tomorrow morning, 9.00, in this same courtroom.

24 We stand adjourned.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

1 to be reconvened on Friday, the 16th day of June,

2 2006, at 9.00 a.m.

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