1 Monday, 27 November 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Case number IT-97-25-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, your next witness.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour --

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The accused has informed me that he's

14 not getting the translation, so could somebody please take care of that.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, indeed. You'd better check the channel that

16 he's got on his system, would you? Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

17 You can now hear, sir?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I understand now. Thank

19 you.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

21 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, before this witness should be

23 heard, he had an additional request for protective measures. He informed

24 me that he would now also request voice distortion, and the reason why he

25 has this additional request is, first of all, he thinks that his voice is

1 easy to recognise because he has a very particular melody and way of

2 speaking. And the interpreter, actually, who was with me when we talked

3 about it confirmed that he has a very special voice, easy to recognise.

4 But that is only one point.

5 The more important point is that -- I would now have to go into

6 particulars of the witness and, therefore, I would request private

7 session.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Very well, then.

9 [Private session]

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12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. We are in open session.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you please stand up and make the

15 declaration.

16 We need the microphone. We need the voice distortion microphone

17 turned on. Thanks. Have the interpreters got the right channel? We had

18 a problem last week.

19 Try again, please, sir. Sorry. Yes. Would you start again.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22 WITNESS: FWS-111

23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

25 I suspect that he's unable to hear me. Would you just check his

1 earphones, please.

2 Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now, sir?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

5 have the witness shown a sheet of paper which should be in front of

6 everybody in the courtroom by now.

7 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

8 Q. Good morning, Witness.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. Witness, you couldn't hear what was said when you were sitting

11 here already. Your requests for voice alteration, image alteration, and

12 pseudonym were granted, and we have to avoid to say your name. When you

13 look at the sheet in front of you, there is the name under Witness 111.

14 Is that your name?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And the date below your name, is that your birthday?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Witness, below your birthday, there are a couple of other names.

19 In case you have to mention these names --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- would you please, then, only mention the number.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour --

23 JUDGE HUNT: That document will be Exhibit P403 --

24 A. It's clear.

25 JUDGE HUNT: -- and it will be under seal.

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

2 Q. Where were you born?

3 A. In the village of Mirjanovici, close to Foca.

4 Q. What is your ethnicity?

5 A. Bosniak, a Muslim.

6 Q. Are you married?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you have children?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How many children?

11 A. Two.

12 Q. Where did you live before the war?

13 A. In Foca.

14 Q. And where in Foca?

15 A. In the centre of town.

16 Q. What was your profession before the war?

17 A. I was a doctor.

18 Q. Were you a member of any political party before the war?

19 A. Yes. I was a member of the SDA. But I was only a member, not in

20 the leadership.

21 Q. Did you have a particular function, or did you appear and give

22 speeches in the public?

23 A. No, no, I never made any public appearances.

24 Q. How were the interethnic relations before the war between the

25 groups?

1 A. They were good.

2 Q. Did they deteriorate at a certain point in time?

3 A. Yes. After the multiparty elections, unfortunately, they did

4 deteriorate.

5 Q. In which way, and why?

6 A. People started -- there started to be divisions amongst the

7 people. Propaganda was having its effect. People became more cautious

8 and suspicious towards one another.

9 Q. Did you attend any rallies of these parties, the SDA and the SDS?

10 A. Yes. Only that main rally of the SDA on August 25th, 1990. But I

11 did not attend any SDS rallies. Never.

12 Q. What did the SDA party stand for? What was the main motto of the

13 rally that you attended?

14 A. The main motto of the SDA, and this can be proved and you can see

15 it from their platform, was that it was for a united and sovereign

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, possibly within the former Yugoslavia, without

17 Slovenia perhaps, if such a political agreement was reached, because this

18 was appropriate for Bosnia because it was populated by three peoples,

19 three nationalities. And Bosniaks are in such an environment. And I

20 think this was a good concept if political agreement had been reached on

21 that. That's one thing.

22 The other thing is that in the promotion of the party at that

23 rally, it was stated that we wanted a unified foreign policy, a unified

24 currency, a unified army as important elements of a state.

25 Q. You said that you did not attend SDS rallies. Do you,

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1 nevertheless, know what their main motto was?

2 A. No. At the end of September in 1990, when they had their main

3 promotional rally in Foca, I was away in Zagreb, so I can't say what their

4 platform was or any particulars that were stated there.

5 Q. Did you follow -- in the months and two years afterwards, did you

6 follow the policy of the SDS through the media?

7 A. Yes, globally I did in order to keep myself informed, without

8 wishing to convey that to somebody else or to have any obligation to do

9 that. It was only for me, for myself.

10 Q. What did the SDS politicians say about the other ethnic groups?

11 Do you recall anything in particular?

12 A. Yes. In early April, there was some kind of propaganda on Radio

13 Foca where the SDS leader, Miro Stanic, stated that it was not possible to

14 live with Muslim neighbours anymore, Bosniaks; that it was time to clear

15 up once and for all relations with them; that Serbs could not permit

16 themselves to be woken up by the hodza every morning from the mosque

17 minaret; that there was also a danger of the Serb population or Serb units

18 being circumcised and such things, which had a very negative effect in the

19 further separation and division of the Serbian people from their

20 neighbours.

21 Q. Witness, you mentioned April. Which year, April, were you talking

22 about?

23 A. 1992.

24 Q. You mentioned Mr. Stanic. What position did he have?

25 A. He was the president of the SDS at that time. After Petko Cancar,

1 he took over that duty.

2 Q. Did politicians from the republic level appear in Foca in that

3 time period?

4 A. Yes, especially those who were born in Foca. Among them were

5 Mr. Velibor Ostojic and Mr. Maksimovic and they were often visiting Foca.

6 Occasionally Mrs. Plavsic would visit as well. I think she was, out of

7 the three leading figures, Karadzic, and the third one who died, I can't

8 remember exactly - Koljevic - so she was the one who visited most often.

9 Q. You mentioned Mr. Ostojic. What position did he have in the SDS

10 or in the political ranks?

11 A. At that time, he was the information minister in the Republic of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina on behalf of the SDS. Mr. Maksimovic was the president

13 of the club of the Serbian Democratic Party in the Bosnia and Herzegovina

14 parliament, and, of course, he was also a professor at the university.

15 Q. Did you hear any of these people speak about the Muslims, and if

16 so, what did they say?

17 A. Velibor Ostojic was present as a guest at the rally that I

18 mentioned earlier and he spoke generally. I can't remember any

19 particulars, but I don't think that he said anything in particular against

20 one side or the other at that time. But Mr. Maksimovic, at a rally in

21 Gorazde, stated that in the previous war the Drina River -- blood flowed

22 in the River Drina and now this time blood will flow down both the rivers

23 Drina and Cehotina.

24 Q. When was this rally in Gorazde when he said that?

25 A. This could have happened at the end of 1990, during the period

1 when the parties were doing promotional work.

2 Q. Do you recall anything that Mr. Kovacic said in relation to

3 Muslims?

4 A. I remember only his statement at a session of the B and H

5 parliament when he stated that in the foreseeable future there is a threat

6 that one of the peoples could disappear from these territories. And I

7 think that he meant the Bosniak people, because he knew that the Bosniak

8 people were not armed. They were not prepared for war. They were

9 defenseless.

10 Q. When did the war in Foca break out?

11 A. The war in Foca broke out on April 6, 1992, when the results of

12 the referendum were published in which the majority of Bosniaks and Croats

13 voted for an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina and when the European

14 Community recognised Bosnia and Herzegovina as a sovereign state. This

15 did not suit the SDS at all, so they started to work on the second

16 option.

17 Q. What do you mean by "second option"?

18 A. The war option, because they had the possibility to arm

19 themselves. They had a large potential from the former Yugoslav army that

20 had come to the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. They came from

21 Croatia and Slovenia. They were located in Bosnia and Herzegovina. So

22 there was a lot of materiel and also staff potential, and that provided

23 the SDS with the opportunity to arm itself very quickly.

24 Q. When the war started, how long did it last?

25 A. In the urban areas it was quite short, and you could also say --

1 if you take into account that the International Community stated that it

2 recognised Bosnia and Herzegovina on April the 5th, then you could say

3 that the 6th of April is the date of aggression on Foca. And it didn't

4 last very long in Foca, but particularly it was in one part of the town

5 where the Muslim forces, a small group of Muslim forces, were resisting.

6 This was in the area of Donje Polje while in the area of the Foca

7 municipality.

8 Outside of the city there was sporadic fighting more or less.

9 People were already escaping. They were running away.

10 Q. Did you participate in the fighting at any time?

11 A. No. I was a doctor by profession, so even if there was such an

12 opportunity at military exercises, I felt that I should really perfect my

13 knowledge and that I should work in my area of specialisation, and I

14 didn't have any interest in learning about weapons.

15 Q. Did you have a weapon?

16 A. No, never.

17 Q. Do you know if houses were destroyed during this short period of

18 fighting in Foca town?

19 A. Yes. In this area where there was fighting, a large number of

20 Bosniak and a certain number of Serb houses were destroyed.

21 Q. Do you know if the house of the accused Krnojelac was destroyed?

22 A. Yes, it was. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know where it was situated within Foca and how it got

24 destroyed?

25 A. Yes. It was quite close (redacted)

1 (redacted). This was close to a small factory which

2 manufactured wooden furniture. It was called Stolarija. I can't remember

3 the street where it was, but I know well what the house looks like. It

4 was -- the facade was of white brick, and there was a small cafe in front

5 of the house, and it had a sort of bamboo fence. So it was easy to set it

6 on fire by an inflammable bullet or in some other way. It was easy to set

7 it on fire.

8 Q. And was it set on fire or did it get destroyed during the

9 fighting? Do you know that?

10 A. I don't know any details about that.

11 Q. What happened to the Muslim houses in the Donje Polje

12 neighbourhood, do you know?

13 A. Not only in Donje Polje but in the entire region of the town.

14 Wherever there were any private Bosnian homes, they were set on fire.

15 This was the usual thing to do in order to frighten the local population

16 to flee the town.

17 Q. How do you know that?

18 A. I know that -- well, when I was at the provisional camp in Livade

19 there were a lot of houses burning. I could see it from there. And also

20 later from the KP Dom, from the windows, we could see how houses were

21 burning in the surrounding areas and also on the banks of the Drina.

22 Also, a large number of detainees who came after me talked about how this

23 or that house was set on fire after being looted first.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Just excuse me a moment. Madam Registrar.

25 You go on.

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

2 show the witness the photo Exhibit 18/7290. It's the top photo.

3 Q. Witness, you have to put it on the ELMO; otherwise, we cannot

4 follow what you say. Can you identify the area?

5 A. Yes, I can identify the area. This is Donje Polje.

6 Q. Please have a close look at this photo. Do you see a mosque, and

7 if so, can you point it out to us?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You have to point it out on the ELMO, not on the TV, the monitor.

10 A. Yes. Excuse me. This is a photo of Gornje Polje so you can see

11 the Sahat Kula, the tower, the watchtower. Also, there is a mosque, and

12 you can see the dome. So it wasn't destroyed at that time.

13 So this is not Donje Polje. Foca has two areas. This is Gornje

14 Polje. The upper photo shows Gornje Polje.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness had pointed at this little tower

16 at the left-hand side of the photo, right in the middle, and he pointed at

17 the building with the roof, the mosque.

18 Q. And the houses behind the mosque, were they Muslim houses? Do you

19 know that?

20 A. Yes. These were exclusively Muslim homes, and this area, this

21 neighbourhood is called Granovski Sokak.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

23 now show you now the photos 7292 and 7293.

24 Q. Can you tell us what neighbourhood this is?

25 A. This is Donje Polje. This is the neighbourhood of Donje Polje.

1 There is an elevation above that called Celovine where heavy weapons were

2 deployed from which they were firing.

3 Q. Heavy weapons of whom? Which side? You said heavy weapons were

4 deployed. Who deployed the heavy weapons?

5 A. This was taken -- these positions were taken by the SDS.

6 Q. On this photo, do you see a mosque, and if so, can you point it

7 out to us?

8 A. Yes. I see a destroyed mosque without a roof. This is the mosque

9 whose name is Na Musluku.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETSLAFF: The witness is pointing at the square

11 building in the middle of the photo, with no roof.

12 Q. And the houses around --

13 A. Not the roof.

14 Q. Yes, I said, without the roof.

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. And the buildings around the mosque, were they inhabited by

17 Muslims?

18 A. This was inhabited by Muslims. There were a few Serb houses as

19 well. And these big buildings, they were socially-owned buildings, these

20 yellow buildings here.

21 Q. Yes.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we have the other photo now. Yes.

23 Q. Is that the same neighbourhood, just from a slightly different

24 part?

25 A. Yes. It's higher up, and you can see more of this part of

1 Celovine, more of the woods and less of the building, the housing complex,

2 because the photograph is shifted a little from the centre.

3 Q. Yes. Thank you.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

5 show you now again the photograph 18/7292. But, Your Honours, the

6 original photo is a wide-angle photo, and I have here now the left part of

7 this wide-angle photo. Ms. Manas will show us the original photo, but I

8 would like the witness to point something out.

9 Would you put it on the ELMO so that we can see the left-hand side

10 of the -- the left-hand side. Yes, thank you.

11 Q. Do you see --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. This neighbourhood, is it close to the KP Dom?

14 A. Yes. You can see even part of the premises where furniture was

15 sold, the furniture that was manufactured in the KP Dom before the war.

16 And what I am showing you now is the bakery. See? And the rest is the

17 neighbourhood of Donje Polje.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness pointed out the bakery, and that

19 is the white building in the right -- in the left-hand corner, standing

20 more or less alone on the photo.

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. Yes, thank you. We will talk about the bakery later on. Thank

23 you.

24 Witness, how many mosques were in Foca before the war?

25 A. I think that in the entire urban area there were 11 or 13

1 mosques. I'm not sure, but it's between 11 and 13. If I were to

2 enumerate all of them, it would take us a long time. However, on the

3 territory of the entire municipality, there were between 26 and 30

4 altogether.

5 Q. Do you know if any of these mosques remained standing after the

6 war?

7 A. No, no. All were destroyed.

8 Q. I would like now to discuss your workplace and your arrest.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And for this I would like to go into private

10 session.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, it seems only fair that we should do so,

12 but have you got anything you want to say about it? This is where he will

13 be identified by what is going to be said.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Yes, we'll go into private session.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

17 Q. You have already mentioned --

18 JUDGE HUNT: You can tell that it is in private session when you

19 get "PS" across the badge on the screen.

20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session now.

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12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. We are in open session.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

15 Q. Where were you taken?

16 A. We were taken to the hill of Prevrac. Until then, our hands had

17 been tied. Veselin Cancar, the commander, caught up with us in the

18 meantime and he said, "Who tied these people's hands?" The soldier who

19 had done it was just behind us. He said to the commander that he had done

20 it because he had such orders.

21 When we arrived at the very hill of Prevrac where the family house

22 of one of the parents of Mr. Cancar was, Veselin Cancar, they untied our

23 hands, but they warned us that if anybody tried to escape, they would

24 shoot us. It was night-time by then.

25 Q. And where were you taken, to which place?

1 A. From that hill we went down a slope by a stream, and we were

2 brought to a place called Livade. There's barbed wire all around it. It

3 was used by the former JNA before. And then just before the war, a

4 trading company had bought the area and there were warehouses there.

5 We were detained in the central building which belonged to the

6 Territorial Defence, and there were all kinds of pieces of military

7 equipment there except for weapons.

8 Q. How long were you detained at Livade?

9 A. We were there from the 11th until the 17th of April, 1992.

10 Q. When you arrived were there already other detainees there?

11 A. No. No. That night we were the first detainees. And already

12 early in the morning, a large number of detainees were brought in.

13 Q. How many detainees were there altogether in Livade while you were

14 there? What was the highest number?

15 A. Well, I think it was between 80 to 100 persons in a few hangars,

16 excluding women and children. They were separated in the morning and

17 taken to other hangars.

18 Q. What ethnicity did these people have?

19 A. Most of them were Bosniaks. At that moment, a Croat was detained

20 as well. Is it necessary for me to mention his name too?

21 Q. Yes, please.

22 A. His name is Krunoslav Marinovic, and he was brought in quite

23 beaten up. He was caught in the weekend cottage of his wife. And he had

24 blue bruises all other his face, and we thought that his upper jaw had

25 been fractured as well.

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, that is the person in

2 Schedule C, number 17.

3 JUDGE HUNT: This is before we get to the KP Dom, is it not?

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, but we want to point out

5 that certain people were targeted from the beginning, right from the

6 beginning throughout, until they disappeared.

7 JUDGE HUNT: I can understand that this is part of the attack upon

8 the civilian population, if nothing else, and I'm just curious as to why

9 we have to worry about Schedule C when we're still at Livade, but you'll

10 pick up something later on about him there.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. It's only -- I wanted to

12 alert you that this person is particularly targeted right from the first

13 moment until the end.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

16 Q. Who was in charge of Livade? Which particular -- was there a

17 particular commander?

18 A. Yes, Veselin Cancar. He himself said that he was commander, and

19 the soldiers also addressed him as "commander." He was the first

20 commander of the camp, the one up there at Livade.

21 Q. Did you talk to him while you were detained there?

22 A. Yes. Yes. There were brief contacts. That night he escorted us

23 to the hangar.

24 Q. What did you talk about when you talked to him?

25 A. I cannot remember the details. He was frustrated as to why the

1 Bosniaks had opted for a sovereign Bosna. He was cursing and threatening

2 quite a bit, saying things like, "We'll show you. You want a sovereign

3 Bosnia. We'll show you." So that was this rhetoric, but no questions

4 were asked.

5 Q. How were the conditions in Livade in relation to food, bedding,

6 and hygienic conditions?

7 A. Very poor. There was concrete in one part of the building. They

8 used to have a salt warehouse before. There was a lot of humidity there.

9 Hygienic conditions were poor, and also food was not good, and this was

10 not a good place to stay at either. Conditions were poor.

11 Q. Was anyone beaten in Livade, any detainees beaten in Livade

12 themselves?

13 A. Yes. Yes. Some of the prisoners who were captured in town itself

14 and brought to Livade from the 11th or, rather, the 12th in the morning

15 until the 17th, already when they were being arrested, they were beaten

16 up, like the mentioned Krunoslav Marinovic. Then Rasim Mezbur, the

17 photographer, he was beaten up that way too, as well as his

18 father-in-law.

19 And especially I would like to point out the beating up of a boy

20 whom they captured in town and brought to our window. On our window, they

21 put a tarpaulin so one could not see through it, and they tied him to the

22 fence, and they were beating him with ropes. We could hear the blows and

23 we could hear his screams and we could hear the rope piercing the air.

24 Q. Was anyone killed at Livade; do you know that?

25 A. I don't know whether he survived these blows.

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1 Q. Where were you taken next from Livade?

2 A. From Livade, in the evening of the 17th of April, we were taken

3 to -- we were taken in freight vehicles covered with tarpaulin, in several

4 groups. I think all of us that night were transferred.

5 I just want to mention that this camp, Livade, served for a long

6 time after that as a transit or collection centre for people to be then

7 transferred to the KP Dom.

8 Q. And in the KP Dom, how long did you stay there?

9 A. I stayed in KP Dom from the April 17th, 1992 until July 5th,

10 1993.

11 Q. When you arrived in KP Dom, who received you? Were they soldiers

12 or policemen?

13 A. It was night, and there were both soldiers and policemen there.

14 So there were both policemen and soldiers.

15 Q. Were you registered when you arrived, registered as detainees?

16 A. No, not right away.

17 Q. Were you ever registered, put onto lists or whatever?

18 A. Yes. In a couple of days, a guard from Serbia went around and he

19 wrote the names and surnames and the professions of the detainees in a

20 large book. He went to all the rooms.

21 Q. Into which room were you taken?

22 A. I was taken to Room 11.

23 Q. I would like to show you a floor plan.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's Exhibit 6/2.

25 A. Yes, here I'm indicating that room. It's on the ground floor and

1 it's Room 11.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would ask in future to

3 have a plan, a floor plan, which is not marked, because this one is

4 clearly marked. Room 11 is marked with an arrow. So in future I would

5 like unmarked floor plans to be used as exhibits.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, is there some real dispute as to whether

7 this witness was in Room 11 or not?

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. But I don't know

9 what the gist of this is. If the witness is indicating something, then he

10 should indicate it on an exhibit that is not marked. Perhaps if he shows

11 some other room and claims it's Room 11, that could be disputed. I don't

12 know. But if we're asking him to identify where Room 11 is, then it's

13 important that this room is not premarked.

14 JUDGE HUNT: There is no dispute that I have seen at any stage

15 throughout this hearing as to which room was which. Now, if there is

16 going to be a dispute, you'd better say so now, because you have not

17 raised it with any witness. Now, is there a dispute as to whether or not

18 this is a correct floor plan?

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know if we

20 understood one another properly. There is no dispute that this is the

21 right floor plan; however, if the witness --

22 JUDGE HUNT: If there is no dispute that it is a correct floor

23 plan, is there then a dispute that this witness was in Room 11? Now,

24 you've had his statement and I assume his statement says he was in Room

25 11. Are you going to dispute it?

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, in the statement --

2 JUDGE HUNT: Are you going to dispute that he was in Room 11?

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] If you permit me, Your Honour, to

4 explain the point of the objection. So far we do not dispute, nor can we

5 dispute, that he was in Room 11; however, if the witness, in an unmarked

6 floor plan, would show some other room, then there would be a doubt

7 whether he was there or not and then the Defence would know or would be

8 suspicious about whether his claims are true or not. A witness could

9 discredit himself or herself in this sense.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, this trial is going to proceed on the

11 real issues in the case, the issues which have been raised by the

12 parties. We will be here forever if we are going to require each question

13 by the Prosecution to be a nonleading one. Where there is something not

14 in dispute, the Prosecution is at liberty to lead on it. Now, I would

15 have thought the simple question was: Were you in Room 11? Yes. And we

16 would get on to the next question. Unfortunately, we've got to the map.

17 Until you are able to demonstrate, from the fact that you've got

18 the statements and you've read them, that there is going to be a real

19 issue about any of this, the Prosecution can lead on it; otherwise, we

20 will never, ever get to the end of this trial.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the reason why I put the floor

22 plan in front of the witness is not actually Room 11 but what comes now.

23 I put it in front of him without asking where Room 11 was within the

24 building because I thought it was not in dispute.

25 JUDGE HUNT: But, please, just lead him to the point where there

1 is going to be -- you understood there to be a dispute, and then we won't

2 have this sort of a problem. But so far as we are concerned, if there is

3 no issue about something, you may lead on it.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

5 JUDGE HUNT: And there's certainly no issue as to the accuracy of

6 this floor plan.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

8 Q. Witness, how long did you stay in Room 11?

9 A. I stayed two days and two nights in Room 11. Then I was taken to

10 a cell which was outside Room 11, directly under the stairs which lead to

11 the upper floors. This was a small space, it had an entrance, and it was

12 a space underneath the stairs. That's where I stayed for two days and two

13 nights -- I'm sorry, four days and four nights.

14 Q. Can you point out this little cell on the floor plan?

15 A. Yes. That would be here. I don't really read these technical

16 drawings very well. But on the same level, as soon as you come out of

17 Room 11, a couple of steps forward you pass the stairs, and then to the

18 left there was a door leading to that cell.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing in the area where

20 the staircase is indicated on the floor map.

21 JUDGE HUNT: So far as I could see, he was pointing mainly at the

22 room with the initials "XC" on it.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would think this is "WC."

24 JUDGE HUNT: Is it? Well, you have a clearer picture than I do.

25 But that's where he seemed to be pointing to. Now, it may be that or the

1 next room, I don't know, but that's where the pointer was showing.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: To clarify the matter, with the help of the

3 usher, I would like to show the witness Exhibit 18, the photos 7481 and

4 7482. According to the index, it's the staircase in this particular

5 area.

6 Q. Would you please have a look at the upper photo and also the photo

7 below. Can you explain what you see?

8 A. These photographs show the area from Room 11, in the basement

9 where I was, and number 12 on the right. They also show the staircase to

10 the upper floors, and also the railing on those stairs, the metal

11 railing.

12 Q. You said that there was this isolation cell. But would we see it

13 on the photo? Where would it be? Or is it not on the photo?

14 A. It's hard here. I don't think it's shown here on the photo

15 properly. Well, you can see the details that I mentioned.

16 Q. Which details can we see?

17 A. The staircase leading right from the ground floor of Room 11, so

18 they lead up, and also the railing that leads from the isolation cell,

19 where this isolation cell was. The stairs go above the isolation cell.

20 So everything was walled off and you could only see -- there was only the

21 entrance. On the other side, towards the factory, there was a very small

22 window.

23 Q. So we do not see this isolation cell on this photo. It's

24 somewhere else --

25 A. No, no. The photograph simply doesn't show it; it's concealed.

1 Q. Where would it be? Where would it be, left or right or ...

2 A. From 11, Room 11, when you come out you go right, you pass the

3 stairway, the width of the stairway, and then you get to the door of the

4 isolation cell where I was taken into. Perhaps it could be this that I'm

5 pointing to now. I would have to really have a good imagination now to

6 picture this, but I was really there.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can you show the -- up, up. The top photo.

8 The witness was pointing at the right-hand side of this photo onto a wall,

9 but we cannot see a door or something, and we do not have a better photo.

10 Thank you.

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

13 Q. Witness, why were you taken into this solitary confinement cell?

14 A. Nobody ever told me why I was taken there. Should I mention the

15 person who took me there?

16 Q. Yes. Yes.

17 A. I was taken by guards who were making the lists before they knew

18 of my identity. And before they took me to that cell they hit me and then

19 they shut me in the cell.

20 Q. Did they hit you with some objects or just with the hand and how

21 hard?

22 A. Yes. They hit me with a baton and also with their fists, and they

23 also slapped me on my face. It was a thin guard. He was wearing gloves

24 with the fingers cut off, on his hands. He did that under incitement by a

25 Serb also from Foca.

1 Q. This other Serb from Foca, was he present? And how do you know

2 that he incited the other one?

3 A. Before that, he signalled to him who I was. He knew me well. So

4 I think that that's how it happened, that I was the first person to be

5 taken to this solitary confinement cell in this way.

6 Q. And this local Serb who indicated who you were, was he a guard or

7 who was he?

8 A. No, he wasn't a guard.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness was saying "gardisti," so

12 knowing that the transcript is corrected later, they said "guard" as

13 opposed to "member of the guard corps." So the Prosecutor is talking

14 about either the guard or the member of the guard corps. So we need to

15 know whether he was hit by a guard, a plain guard, or a member of the

16 guard corps, whether we're talking about a regular prison guard or a

17 member of the Serbian guards.

18 JUDGE HUNT: I don't know if we've got a very good definition of

19 who the Serbian guards were, Mr. Bakrac. Who do you say were there in

20 addition to the regular guards?

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I understood the witness to talk

22 about the voluntary guards, some kind of army, not -- not regular guards

23 that we have been talking about in this case. I think we should

24 differentiate between a member of the guard corps and a guard.

25 A. May I clarify?

1 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Go ahead, sir.

2 A. This key period from the 17th, 18th, 19th, there was chaos in the

3 KP Dom about -- regarding the bringing and the taking away of people.

4 There were both people assisting from Serbia. They said openly that, "We

5 have come to help our brother Serbs," so that they switched. There were

6 civilian police, there were members of the guards corps from Uzice,

7 police. So any one of these would come in and they would be conducting

8 searches, checking, looking at the things that we had with us, and so on.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I suggest that if you can,

10 you could get the witness, as he goes, to distinguish from which

11 particular group, if he knows, the particular guard or person he's

12 speaking of came from.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. But I thought the witness had said

14 that.

15 JUDGE HUNT: I thought he had too.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: He said he was from Serbia. He spoke about

17 the soldier from Serbia who beat him, and there is no doubt about that.

18 When he says "gardisti," I know that he means Serbian soldiers from

19 Serbia, but let me clarify.

20 Q. When you say "gardisti," do you mean the --

21 A. Yes. Yes. I mean soldiers from Serbia. Yes, exclusively that.

22 Q. And you said that this soldier from Serbia hit you because a local

23 person told him who you are, and to clarify, you said this local person

24 was not a guard of the KP Dom but a different person. Who was he?

25 A. Before the war he was a medical technician in the KP Dom. Later,

1 he went to the front as part of the medical corps, and he didn't appear in

2 the KP Dom any more.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I think that's clear now.

4 JUDGE HUNT: But the point that Mr. Bakrac raises is an important

5 one, so that when we read the transcript later on, if we have to ascribe

6 any responsibility for these actions, we have to know whether he was a

7 guard or whether he was somebody who came in from the outside. That's the

8 point he is making, and it's a fair enough one. If you could just keep an

9 eye on it so that when the witness says something about being beaten or

10 seeing a beating, we can identify which group the person came from.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

12 Q. You said already that you stayed four days in this isolation

13 cell. Did you stay there alone?

14 A. The third day Dr. Aziz Torlak was brought to the cell from the

15 hospital, from work. He was also brought by a member of the guard corps

16 from Uzice. They said, "You are going to give a statement to KP Dom," and

17 then they left him there right up until he disappeared.

18 Q. You said he disappeared. When did he disappear and how did he

19 disappear?

20 A. I went to a different camp on July 5, 1993, and he left on July 7,

21 1993. He never appeared anywhere again. The Serb authorities practically

22 admitted later that he was killed somewhere.

23 Q. How did you get out of the isolation cell? Who released you from

24 there?

25 A. Already on the 18th and the 19th, the previous guards were called

1 back who worked in the KP Dom before and who knew how to work with

2 convicted persons, so that there was a guard in front of my cell who I

3 knew very well, and he also knew me.

4 Then in four days there, I suffered from hunger and cold. There

5 were no blankets. There was only one bed with two sheets. The same

6 applied to my roommates, my colleagues. So we requested to be released or

7 removed from that cell, which was later carried out. So from that cell we

8 were taken to Room 12.

9 Q. Did you make a written request or did you just ask the guard, and

10 to whom did you direct your request?

11 A. We directed our request to the warden, and this was an oral

12 request, and he conveyed that.

13 Q. You said "he conveyed that." Does that mean you made the request

14 to the guard and he conveyed it?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. Conveyed it to whom? You said the "warden." Who was the warden?

17 A. The warden was Mr. Milorad Krnojelac.

18 Q. How did you know that at that time?

19 A. I found that out because two guards in front of my cell, in front

20 of the door to my cell, were having a conversation, and they said that on

21 the 18th, Mr. Krnojelac, Milorad Krnojelac, came to be the warden and that

22 he also had the authority, and that's how we found that out. Later, this

23 date of when he took up this post was repeated many times.

24 Q. From this isolation cell, to which room were you taken?

25 A. As I said, I was taken to Room 12. This is an area that had two

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1 rooms, a larger and a smaller room, and it had a kind of entrance or a

2 hall in front of those two rooms from where you go into the toilet and

3 also go into the two rooms, the larger and the smaller room. I was in the

4 smaller room where there were seven or eight other detainees.

5 Q. Witness, in which building was Room 12 and on which floor?

6 A. It was also on the ground floor, on the same level as Room 11 in

7 building 1. I stayed in that room until August 8, 1992.

8 Q. How does it come that you know the dates so well? Is there a

9 particular reason that you remember it was the 8th of August?

10 A. This date stuck in my memory because in the 26 months and 3 days

11 that I spent in the camp, I went over all the events that I had lived

12 through. I went through them over in my head, and I remember that very

13 well.

14 I was supposed to get an injection that day which was prescribed

15 to me by the doctor who was taking care of the detainees, but on that day,

16 the guard did not want to take me to the health centre so that I could

17 receive this shot. It was a kind of cocktail. And he instead told me to

18 get ready so that they could take me to another building and this is what

19 happened.

20 Q. Where were you taken from Room 12?

21 A. From Room 12 I was taken to building 2, to Room 23. It was on the

22 top floor.

23 Q. Witness, in your previous statement to the investigator of the

24 Tribunal, you mentioned that you were all the time -- for a longer period

25 in Room 11 and not 12. Would that, then, be a mistake?

1 A. No. We're talking about Room 11. I was there for two days and

2 two nights. Then I was in the solitary confinement cell for four days and

3 four nights. Then I was in Room 12 until August 8th, 1992. And then I

4 went to Room 23, then Room 18, then Room 19, then Room 15, and then again

5 back to Room 19. I think I was transferred eight or nine times during my

6 stay there.

7 Q. You said Room 23 was on the top floor of the other prisoners'

8 quarters. Are you sure?

9 A. Yes, I am sure, because you could see a fair amount of Foca. You

10 could see the bridge over the Drina, which is quite close to the KP Dom.

11 It was called Zeljeznicki Most, the iron bridge. You could also see the

12 plateau of the railway station, a part of Donje Polje; you could see the

13 bakery and so on.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

15 show the photo Exhibit 18, photo 7528, to the witness. It's the top one.

16 A. Yes. You can see the roof of the administration building very

17 well, there are high trees in front of it, and you can see that this is a

18 period of vegetation where everything is in bloom. You can see that

19 well. You could see this -- this is what you could see from that room,

20 number 23.

21 Q. Could you see the bridge over the Drina in front of the KP Dom,

22 although there were these trees?

23 A. Yes. The bridge that I mentioned, the iron bridge, you could see

24 it. I'm not sure about the other bridge which is a little bit higher,

25 opposite the municipal building.

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, the time.

2 JUDGE HUNT: We'll adjourn now until 11.30.

3 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Witness, before the break you mentioned to us in which rooms you

8 were, but I would like to return with you to your stay in Room 12.

9 When you arrived in Room 12, how many detainees were there

10 already?

11 A. There were already between 40 to 60 detainees there, I think.

12 Q. Did you know these detainees from before, or some of them?

13 A. Yes, I knew a large number of them.

14 Q. What ethnicity did they have?

15 A. Most of them were Bosniaks; only one was a Croat.

16 Q. What age did these detainees have? Who was the youngest and who

17 was the oldest?

18 A. Their age ranged from 17 to 65. Is it necessary to mention who

19 the youngest person was and who the oldest person was?

20 Q. No, no. We just wanted to have the range. What about the other

21 rooms? Could you see that there were also detainees there?

22 A. Yes. In the room that was in the other building, that belonged to

23 the other building, because it was at the same level, there was only this

24 small area between us and there were bars as well so we could see each

25 other through the window and through the bars. I think it was Room 16,

1 16, in the other building.

2 Q. Could you estimate how many detainees were there altogether in KP

3 Dom? Let's say in the first few months.

4 A. Yes. I think that towards the end of May, the beginning of June,

5 the number was the largest. It was between 600 and 650.

6 Q. How do you know that? Did you count them?

7 A. Yes. Quite a few of us were trying to get at the right number as

8 to how many of us there were over there. When we would line up for lunch

9 or for the other meal, we were counting. I did that personally as well as

10 my colleague Dr. Torlak and others.

11 Q. These people, as far as you knew them, were they civilians or were

12 soldiers among them?

13 A. Civilians only.

14 Q. Were there any sick people among you detainees?

15 A. Yes. Yes. I would single out the group of mental patients. Two

16 of them were in my room. I would mention a very serious mental patient,

17 Edhem Bunda, and Hajdarevic. I'll remember his first name as well. They

18 were both schizophrenics. And the third mental patient who was in the

19 other building, who had had cerebral palsy in his childhood, and he walked

20 in a bizarre fashion. He walked with his hand and arm high up like this.

21 I would describe a patient who massacred himself. Edhem Bunda was

22 his name. He was brought in somewhat later. He was put into that room,

23 that porch that I mentioned. He was not in any of the rooms. His bed was

24 in this area between the rooms.

25 One night, he found a razor - some of us used it to shave - and he

1 cut off part of his own ear with that razor. That took us by surprise.

2 We had not heard anything. Of course, we reported this to the police, and

3 he was taken to the male nurse so that this could be bandaged a bit. That

4 was done.

5 The next evening, again he got hold of a razor and he cut off all

6 his fingernails on his fingers. I was taken aback by this as a physician,

7 as were others, because we know that this is the most terrible pain that

8 can be inflicted upon a person, tearing off fingernails.

9 He was a mental patient, and he wandered through the forest in

10 this area around Tjentiste, and that way he would ease his mind when he

11 would walk through the forest. But I think that in this cooped up area,

12 he transferred this aggression upon himself and that is why he did what he

13 did.

14 Q. This confinement situation, did that worsen the physical stage of

15 these mentally-ill people?

16 A. Yes. In addition to that, it was noticeable that he was hungry.

17 In the morning, for breakfast, when we were given hard boiled eggs, he

18 would eat the entire egg, including the shell. Then when he would walk

19 with us, if he could grab an insect, he would eat the insect too. We

20 estimated that he was so hungry that he could not control his actions.

21 In addition to him, I mentioned the man who had palsy who was in

22 this other building. His last name was Gradisic. I can't remember his

23 first name. He was a youngish man.

24 And the fourth one, his name was -- I'll remember. Babic. He

25 stayed behind me in Room 11, and out of fear he cut his veins. Later on,

1 he was taken out in one of the groups and he was killed. He disappeared.

2 That was a characteristic group of mental patients.

3 Since I mentioned patients, I would like to mention another group

4 that is noteworthy.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, please.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Microphone.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

8 Q. Before we leave the group of mentally handicapped people, were the

9 judges -- sorry. Were the guards aware of this particular group of people

10 and how did they react? Did they do anything to prevent such things that

11 you described?

12 A. Yes. They knew who they were. They knew them. A lot of them

13 did. But they did not take any positive action.

14 Q. And what happened to this group of -- this particular group of

15 people, do you know?

16 A. Yes. In a later period, they were taken out of the camp together

17 and there's been no trace of them since. I think they were killed.

18 Q. Now you can move on to the physically sick people.

19 A. Yes. The other noteworthy group that we were all very upset by in

20 the sense of what were they doing in the camp was the group of heart

21 patients who had had heart surgery performed on them before the war. That

22 is Asim Hadzimuratovic and Hamdija Hadzimuratovic and Rasim Jusufovic.

23 Rasim Jusufovic and Hamdija Hadzimuratovic had double bypass

24 operations after having a heart attack, and Asim Hadzimuratovic had had

25 his valves replaced. And I was also surprised to see such sick people

1 there. What did these people who were bringing such persons in think

2 about their own future, their children, their families? That's what I

3 thought then.

4 Q. The conditions -- their physical conditions, did they worsen while

5 they were detained?

6 A. Yes. It is only natural that after such operations such patients

7 should undergo certain therapy, and over there they did not have the right

8 conditions for this kind of therapy. Asim Hadzimuratovic had had an

9 intervention and all this stopped until he got out. Later on, I think he

10 was exchanged. I found out that he and Hamdija Hadzimuratovic died

11 perhaps a year or two ago.

12 Q. Besides you and Dr. Torlak, were there any other doctors or

13 medical staff detained? And please, before you say the name, check if

14 their name is on the list and then use the number, please.

15 A. Yes. On this list there is not the name of the dentist who was

16 brought to Livade on the next day. Oh, yes, there is. Oh, yes, there

17 is. That is Witness 115. He was brought on the 12th of July. He was

18 brought to Livade on the 12th of July. Then together with us, he was

19 transferred on the 17th to KP Dom. He stayed there until I did, and he

20 was exchanged in the same group that I was exchanged in on the 15th of

21 June, 1994. That is Witness 115.

22 Another witness who also belonged to the medical profession is

23 Witness 76. He and two other witnesses were brought in directly from the

24 hospital, from their place of work.

25 Q. And any other doctor? Was there any other doctor?

1 A. Oh, yes. There was (redacted), Amir Berberkic. Amir

2 Berberkic. He had been wounded, and he had also been in hospital for

3 treatment and then was brought from the hospital to the KP Dom. He was

4 undergoing treatment. He was supposed to have physical therapy, but all

5 of that was interrupted when he was brought to the KP Dom.

6 Is it necessary for me to mention the names of two other medical

7 technicians or, rather, three of them? Later, I don't know whether Mato

8 Ivancic, a Croat, was brought from home or from his place of work. Also,

9 Zeco Mehmedspahic and Izet Causevic too. Those are medical technicians

10 who were -- oh, yes. Oh, yes, yes. In Room 11 there was a young medical

11 person who was not working yet. He had just completed medical vocational

12 school. His name was Karabegovic; I can't remember his first name. He

13 was taken out at an earlier stage in one group. Those were the members of

14 the medical profession there.

15 Q. Thank you. You mentioned the detainees that were -- the other

16 detainees that were in rooms. Were there any detainees in the isolation

17 cells? I'm not referring to this one you were in but other isolation

18 cells.

19 A. Yes. In the other building, before the war there were six or

20 seven isolation cells. Later on the prisoners built three to four

21 solitary confinement cells in addition to that. So there were about ten

22 of them in the other building, on the ground floor, immediately on the

23 right-hand side.

24 I was there one night; I spent the night in one of these solitary

25 confinement cells. Is it necessary for me to explain right now why this

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1 happened?

2 Q. Yes. Why were you in the isolation cell, and when?

3 A. Yes. It was cold at the time. I think it was February or March

4 1993. I know it was cold. The reason was that I and Witness 215 had

5 asked for water to bathe or, rather, to wash a bit. We asked the cook for

6 that water and the cook allowed us; however, the policeman opposed this

7 and asked why we didn't ask him. Since this water was being warmed

8 outside and since the cook had approved this, we thought that that was

9 sufficient. We walked up there, and the guard was dissatisfied with this

10 and then he said that we should be taken to the isolation cell. And that

11 is where we spent one night.

12 Q. While you were in the isolation cell, were you mistreated or

13 beaten?

14 A. No, no.

15 Q. While you were there, could you see or hear that there were

16 detainees in other cells? Isolation cells, I mean.

17 A. Yes, yes. Voices could be heard, and shouting, from both

18 isolation cells. I can't remember the cell that we were put into. It was

19 night-time. But on one side we could hear the conversation of two old

20 men. I think they were caught at the Gorazde front line when food was

21 being brought from Grebak. There was snow there and that's where they

22 caught them. You could tell by their voices that they were elderly

23 people.

24 On the other side in relation to our isolation cell was a

25 Slovenian journalist who were exercising their speaking Slovenian and who

1 tried to battle the cold that night. That was it. Later on I know that

2 there were other Slovenian journalists who were taken prisoner somewhere

3 and brought in there. It wasn't only him.

4 Q. Was there a particular reason why certain detainees were kept in

5 the isolation cells and separated from the others?

6 A. Yes. Probably those who did the decision-making had their plans

7 and had their reasons why they were putting them in there. We could not

8 have known what this was all about. Most often these were persons who

9 were caught at the front line. And there was no contact between us in the

10 rooms and them. While they were in isolation cells, they had food brought

11 to them there so that they would not establish any kind of contact with

12 us.

13 Q. Were there any Serb detainees or prisoners in the KP Dom while you

14 were there?

15 A. Yes. Already in 1993, I think it was May, quite a few Bosniaks

16 had already been taken away. And when there were only 80 to 90 of us,

17 perhaps, then they set up a prison there for their own people who had

18 tried to escape from the front line or who had had some other mutual

19 problems.

20 Q. Before May 1993, were there Serb prisoners in the KP Dom?

21 A. Yes, only at the outset, for a brief period, a night or two.

22 These were usually Serbs from mixed marriages.

23 Q. These Serbs, were they always kept separate? I mean the Serbs

24 before May and after May 1993, were they kept separate from the Muslims

25 and Croats?

1 A. For the most part, yes. But sometimes, for example, they would

2 single out a group of us, 12, and we would stay at the same building,

3 building 2, where there were only Serb prisoners in building 2. They were

4 staying in several rooms. During a certain period of time we happened to

5 be in the same building. Later on we were transferred to building 2 so

6 that we would not have any contact.

7 Q. Witness, let's talk about the living conditions in the KP Dom.

8 Can you tell us how the living conditions were in winter in relation to

9 coldness and beds available?

10 A. Yes, there were beds, because this was an area where convicts

11 stayed before. So we had beds, for the most part.

12 As for the cold, there was no heating. It was very cold. I never

13 remembered that there would be a metre and a half or even more of snow in

14 Foca in December, as was the case that year. From the 18th of December,

15 as far as I can remember, until the 28th, I think, the temperatures were

16 very low. So in that period we were really freezing, especially because

17 our food was so poor and we had so few calories.

18 Q. You are speaking about the winter of 1992 to 1993.

19 A. 1992. I'm sorry, 1992. As for 1993, I wasn't there when it

20 came.

21 Q. This coldness, did it affect your health and the health of other

22 detainees? And if so, in which way?

23 A. Yes. Our blood circulation was much weaker. I specifically had

24 pains that were enhanced by the cold, but also primarily because of poor

25 nutrition, which went on for about eight or ten months. I had a limp for

1 a long time; my right leg was in bad shape. I had lost in that period 40

2 kilogrammes; that was a major loss for my organism and which was having

3 great trouble adapting to such a weight-loss. That is one of the problems

4 I had. In addition to that, I realised later that my eyesight was getting

5 poorer.

6 Also, one day when I was washing, I was simply surprised when I

7 found edema on my legs, below my knees, which is the result of a diet that

8 was poor in proteins. However, I was not the only person to have this

9 kind of problem; other prisoners did as well. Some had even greater

10 problems in this respect. I mean, those who smoked aggravated this

11 condition because smoking does aggravate such a condition. Some also had

12 wounds on their fingers.

13 As for hygienic conditions which were very poor over such a long

14 period of time, there were also lice. I did not stress until now what a

15 major problem that was. I'm talking about human lice. But then there was

16 also chicken lice, because they got that from the work platoon, the people

17 who were assigned to work in the chicken coop.

18 May I point out now that when the KP Dom was established or,

19 rather, when the camp in the KP Dom was established, work platoons were

20 established consisting of unskilled, uneducated persons, and craftsmen.

21 Q. Witness, let's talk about the work platoons later on. Let's stick

22 with the living conditions and the results on the health of the detainees

23 for now.

24 You said the people got lice. How were the hygienic conditions

25 like that this happened?

1 A. The conditions were very poor. People were very close to one

2 another. They huddled together because it was so cold and they tried to

3 warm-up. There was no possibility to bathe so there were lice. As a

4 physician, I was greatly surprised by this, that this kind of thing could

5 happen. I had only read about this in books, that when hygienic

6 conditions were very unfavourable and when people were fleeing their homes

7 in cases of war that there could be such situations, and this was the

8 first time I had seen this with my very own eyes.

9 And may I just mention one more case when I had to prove to the

10 police what was happening to all of us. One man had asked me to examine

11 him because he said that he felt as if he were being eaten up. And I

12 said, "I'll examine you in the morning before everybody else gets up."

13 This man was a waiter before. And I found lots of lice on his body.

14 In order to prove this to the police, I took a little penicillin

15 bottle and I collected some of the lice. When the guard came to take us

16 to breakfast, I showed him this little bottle with lice that were still

17 alive in it. He laughed a bit and he said that he would tell the medical

18 technician about this problem. Then later, some kind of disinfection was

19 carried out. Something was done to get this under control. They were

20 afraid that there would be a mass epidemic otherwise.

21 Q. You mentioned the bad quality of the food. Are you able to say

22 how many calories the detainees got in that first ten months that he

23 mentioned?

24 A. No. No, I couldn't say. But from day number one there was a

25 prescribed dish in which meals were served. The size was prescribed.

1 Then there was this big spoon that was used as well. In addition to that,

2 we would get one piece of bread, one slice of bread, respectively. This

3 was a long period of time. All the way up to May, I think, 1993. Whether

4 they reduced the number of prisoners, then they added yet another small

5 slice of bread, half the size of the standard slices of bread.

6 Q. Was no food available because of the war or were the rations kept

7 deliberately so low?

8 A. I personally think that this was deliberate, because there had

9 been lots of food at people's houses. The nutrition could have been much

10 better, especially because in the surroundings of Foca, in Ustikolina,

11 namely, large quantities of flour were found that they transferred to

12 Foca, and they could have provided better food both in terms of quality

13 and quantity.

14 Q. Do you know if the Serb prisoners in the KP Dom received as little

15 food as the other detainees or was their diet different?

16 A. No. They had a better diet in all respects, in quality and

17 quantity.

18 Q. And how do you know that?

19 A. I know that because if something was left over from them,

20 sometimes we would get a part of that food. And it was tasty. It was of

21 good quality. It was good.

22 Q. You said that you lost weight. Did the other detainees also lose

23 weight? And what about the Serb detainees?

24 A. Yes. A large number of Bosniak detainees also had that same

25 weight loss. Some even lost more. I don't think the Serbs had the same

1 weight loss because they remained for a short time and then they would

2 leave. And they could hardly recognise some of their neighbours who had

3 been there for a shorter or a longer time.

4 Q. Did anybody die due to the living conditions? I'm not speaking

5 about beatings and torture, only the living conditions.

6 A. Yes. The question is clear. Yes, there were a few deaths at the

7 time that I was there and after I left. I would want to mention that Esad

8 died. His name was Esad. I'll remember his last name. He was an

9 electrician by trade. He had some kind of intestinal/stomach bleeding,

10 after which he died. I think that was the first death.

11 After that, some -- a deaf/mute person was brought from the front,

12 from the forest. His last name was Kunovac. I can't remember his name.

13 He also died very quickly, after some 20 days. I think he had been beaten

14 a lot because the guards thought that he didn't want to tell them the

15 truth, but they didn't know that he was a deaf/mute person.

16 Q. Witness, you are too fast. You have to pause in between and let

17 me ask additional questions in between.

18 You mentioned this person Esad, and on the transcript it says that

19 you remember his last name. What was his last name?

20 JUDGE HUNT: It said "I will remember." In other words, he

21 doesn't remember now, I think.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Okay.

23 Q. When did he die, this Esad?

24 A. Yes. He died, I think, in May or June 1992, thereabouts. He was

25 in another building. It's true. I was still in building 1 at that time.

1 Q. And this Kunovac, when did he die and do you know the cause of

2 death?

3 A. Yes. He died, I think, in February. It was spring 1993, to be

4 more precise, because I know that he smelt of the forest and leaves

5 because he had been caught in the forest, and there were a lot of leaves

6 in his clothes from the forest. I think that he also died from some kind

7 of internal bleeding. This was very difficult to diagnose based on some

8 routine examination.

9 Q. Did you see this person and did you perform this examination?

10 A. Yes. He was right next to me, next to my bed, and that person

11 died next to my bed. Yes. Torlak was still together with me, so the two

12 of us together thought about what it could be. He, as a surgeon, was

13 closer to the causes, and he probably said that it was most likely some

14 kind of internal bleeding. He also had a kind of -- carried out a digital

15 exam -- a manual examination of his intestine, large intestine, and he

16 diagnosed that this person had some kind of internal bleeding.

17 Q. And did you alert the guards that something has to be done?

18 A. Yes. We warned the guards as well as the medical technician that

19 something was happening here. It's interesting that the guards asked that

20 he comes with us to the place where we were eating meals, from the third

21 floor. So he had been brought to our room. So on that day, he did manage

22 to go, and he collapsed in the cafeteria. So when the medical technician

23 who was in charge of that saw that, they decided that it wasn't possible

24 for him to come to the mealtimes with the rest of us but instead they

25 brought his food to him.

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1 Q. And who else died?

2 A. After I left, Ibrahim Sandal also died, yes. And then earlier, I

3 think this was April, possibly, the beginning of May, Dzamalija committed

4 suicide in his cell. Dzamalija. I will remember his first name. He was

5 an older man. He was wounded during his arrest, him and his daughter.

6 That's what we found out, that he was seriously wounded and that his

7 daughter was seriously wounded as well.

8 Q. Let's go to -- back to Ibrahim Sandal. When you saw him, was he

9 sick, and what was he suffering from?

10 A. I didn't get the translation.

11 Q. Ibrahim Sandal.

12 A. Yes. I didn't hear the question, I'm sorry.

13 Yes. He was an older man also. When I met him for the first time

14 after I was transferred from one room to another, I found him lying down.

15 He recognised me. He used to come to me for examinations. That's what he

16 told me.

17 He was exhausted. He said that he had been hiding in the woods

18 for a long time. And when he was caught, he was beaten up, and ever since

19 then he never really recovered. He always showed signs of sickness,

20 symptoms of sickness. He died after I left to Kula.

21 Q. Did you alert the Judges -- sorry. Did you alert the guards in

22 relation to the health condition of Mr. Sandal?

23 A. Yes. They saw that because he had his food brought to him also

24 for a while. So they would monitor whether he had really received this

25 food to make sure that none of the other detainees ate the food. So you

1 could see where he was lying down. He was lying down on the floor on a

2 mattress.

3 Q. Do you recall anyone else who died due to the conditions?

4 A. Yes. I can't recall that anymore. There were a few cases of

5 collapsing while we were in line waiting for our meals or while we were

6 lined up. People would faint.

7 Q. Do you know of any detainee who had a problem with his mouth so

8 that he could not eat?

9 A. Yes. One of them was Edhem Veiz. After his capture, he spent a

10 long time in isolation. After he was released from isolation, he smelled

11 of damp earth, and he had wounds on his lips, and he had a bad smell

12 coming from his mouth. The other detainees complained, and they would

13 walk away from him really. They asked me to do something about that

14 because they couldn't stand that bad smell any more from his mouth

15 cavity.

16 I told the medical technician in charge, and he did give him some

17 kind of medicine so that he could rinse out his mouth. So we did

18 something about that so that his condition improved.

19 Q. But one other witness who was here before you mentioned a detainee

20 who couldn't eat because there was something wrong with his mouth and that

21 he died. Would you know who that was? Do you recall anything like that?

22 A. Yes. Yes, I know. Yes. This is another person who died. I know

23 Kubat, Sefko Kubat, also died because of poor food and living conditions.

24 He probably had some kind of narrowing of his intestines so that he would

25 throw up everything he ate, and there was no way we could compensate for

1 this by giving him IV or help him in some other way. It's true also that

2 he died after I left for Kula.

3 Q. Yes. You mentioned that you were hit on one occasion. That was

4 in the beginning. Was that the only time that you were beaten?

5 A. Yes. While I was in Foca, it was only physical abuse.

6 Q. Did you see or hear other prisoners being beaten?

7 A. Yes. While I was in Room 12, which was not far from the

8 administration building, then quite often I and others would hear when the

9 physical torture started in June. We could hear loud groans and screams

10 of people who were being physically abused.

11 Q. Can you tell us when this abuse started and till when it lasted?

12 The month, maybe.

13 A. Yes. The abuse that I mentioned in that particular way started,

14 according to my recollection, on June 13th, and then it went on until July

15 13th. It was a particular group of people. They were first taken out,

16 the 35 people, to the administrative building. It was the rehabilitation

17 building, because the administration building actually consisted of two

18 parts, the administrative part and the correction department. So that's

19 what you had, the correction department and the administrative part. So

20 in the correction part of the building, on the ground floor, this abuse

21 was carried out.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

23 show the witness again the floor plan, and this time it's 6/1. Can you

24 put it on the ELMO so that --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can you put it on the ELMO so that we can

2 see. Yes, thank you.

3 Q. Can you show us the buildings that you just mentioned.

4 A. Yes. Here is building 1 and building 2.

5 Q. Yes. But please -- you mentioned two parts of the administration

6 building. Can you please show us which part.

7 A. Yes, yes. This is the administration building. This is that

8 corrections part, because the corrections department was always opposite

9 building 1, while the administrative part was opposite building 2.

10 Q. Please put the pointer for us onto this correction part and keep

11 it there for a moment.

12 A. This would be that part, what I'm indicating.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the left-hand side

14 of the administration building.

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. How did the detainees get from your room or the other rooms into

17 this building? Who took them there?

18 A. They were taken there by the police who had already taken over, as

19 of the 17th or the 18th, all control at KP Dom. Civilian police.

20 Q. When you say "civilian police," do you mean the guards, the normal

21 prison guards?

22 A. Yes, yes. Yes, that's what I mean.

23 Q. How did they -- did they call out the detainees from the rooms or

24 point them out? What was this procedure to get certain detainees into

25 this administration building?

1 A. Yes. They would come with a piece of paper that had some names on

2 it, names of people that they were going to take away.

3 Q. At what time of the day did they come, or did they come in the

4 evening?

5 A. Yes. During this period, this group would usually be taken out in

6 the evening. They would come back to the rooms for awhile, and then after

7 a brief period, they would take them away and then they would disappear.

8 Q. You said that you heard screams. Could you see also that people

9 were beaten, or could you only hear?

10 A. I didn't see it directly. But a number of people were taken out

11 directly from my room, number 11, and they would come back with bruises on

12 their faces which were a result of strong blows with items, and also they

13 had these bruises on their legs.

14 Q. You -- at least we got the translation that you said "Room 11."

15 Is that correct?

16 A. No, no, I'm sorry. Room 12.

17 Q. Can you tell us who was taken from your room, number 12, and

18 returned?

19 A. Nurko Nisic was among the first to be taken out; then Salem Bico,

20 called Hamdo -- Hamdo, called Salem; also Halim Konjo was taken out and

21 his brother Halid.

22 Q. Witness, let us move slowly from one person to the other and

23 discuss one person after the other. You mentioned first Nurko Nisic.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: According to the schedule, it is C-19, and

25 it's also 5.27.

1 Q. Who was Nurko Nisic?

2 A. Nurko Nisic was a police officer in Foca.

3 Q. How often was he taken out of your room, and how often was he

4 returned?

5 A. I think he was taken out once or twice, and the third time he was

6 taken out he never came back.

7 Q. What kind of injuries did you see on him when he returned these

8 one or two times?

9 A. We saw bruises, dark bruises, on his face, also on his legs,

10 because they were often beaten with -- they were kicked with their feet.

11 Q. Did you examine him and did you help him recover?

12 A. Yes, we did do something, and he managed to recover. However,

13 later he was taken out and then disappeared; he never came back.

14 Q. What did he tell you, if at all? Did he tell you what happened to

15 you and who did it?

16 A. Yes. Everybody who came back from the torture was full of fear

17 and they spoke with fear, and some of them were so afraid that they didn't

18 dare say anything. I think that they were threatened that if they said

19 something they would disappear. And I think that he said that he was

20 beaten severely all over his body and that he was beaten by Dragan

21 Zelenovic.

22 Q. Did he tell you where he was beaten, in which room, in which part

23 of the administration building? Do you recall anything?

24 A. Yes. He said that that was in the corrections department, on the

25 ground floor.

1 Q. You mentioned Hamdo Bico, also called Salem.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That is Schedule C, number 2 and also

3 Schedule B, number 5.

4 Q. How often was he taken out?

5 A. I think also he was taken out once or twice, and then later he was

6 taken out and he did not come back.

7 Q. Did you see injuries on him, and what was it?

8 A. Yes. Same, similar injuries as with the previous person that I

9 mentioned.

10 Q. Did he tell you who beat him and where in the buildings?

11 A. Yes. He said that this was on the ground floor of the mentioned

12 building. I can't remember that he mentioned any particular person,

13 though.

14 Q. You also mentioned Halim Konjo and Halid Konjo. That is --

15 A. Yes. They're brothers.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That is C-13 and B-33.

17 Q. How often were they taken? Were they taken together? Can you

18 explain a little bit more in detail.

19 A. No, they were not taken out together. I think they were taken out

20 once, and then the second time they were taken out they didn't come back.

21 Q. Who were these people? How can we distinguish between Halim and

22 Halid?

23 A. It's difficult. They're alike physically, I think, and also in

24 their behaviour. They had a cafe in Foca. They're father had the cafe,

25 and that's where they worked.

1 Q. Did you see injuries on them?

2 A. Yes. They also had physical injuries on their skin.

3 Q. Do you know if both of them disappeared?

4 A. Yes, yes, I know.

5 Q. Who else was taken from your room?

6 A. Brothers Rikalo were taken out from Room 12. These are three

7 brothers. They were taken out individually, in different periods. It is

8 to be noted about them that they escaped from Foca, they were caught in

9 Montenegro, and then they were brought to the Foca camp. Also, there were

10 other deportations like that of small groups of people.

11 Q. Do you know the first names of the three brothers?

12 A. Yes. Zaim Rikalo, Hido Rikalo, and I can't recall right now the

13 third one.

14 Q. Hido, is that a nickname? Could that be --

15 A. No, no. It's a name.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, the Rikalo brothers are C-21 to

17 C-23, and also incidents B-45 to B-48.

18 Q. Were these Rikalo brothers taken on several occasions, and did you

19 see them return injured?

20 A. No. I think they were called out once, in the evening. They were

21 taken out and they disappeared.

22 Q. Anyone else from your room, Room 12?

23 A. I can't remember right now whether any more people were taken out

24 in this period that we're talking about, from the 13th of June. But I

25 know that a number -- a large number of people were also taken out from

1 Room 11.

2 Q. Do you recall who was taken out from Room 11, or any other room,

3 whom you saw?

4 A. Yes. The medical technician, Karabegovic, was taken out; I can't

5 remember his name now. Adil Granov was taken out; he was an engineer.

6 Also Krunoslav Marinovic, a Croat, was taken out.

7 Q. Witness, let's, again, go one by one so that we do not have to

8 repeat them.

9 A. Yes, very well.

10 Q. Did you see Mr. Karabegovic return with injuries?

11 A. I can't describe the injuries in detail. I know he was wearing a

12 kind of green fur coat. He passed by our window. Our window looked

13 directly out onto the yard and the path that you would go to and come back

14 from building 1.

15 Q. How often was Mr. Karabegovic taken out?

16 A. I think once or twice.

17 Q. You already mentioned Adil Granov. How often was he taken out?

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: By the way, this is C-9 and B-22.

19 A. Yes. About the same. He was taken once or twice to

20 interrogations and to be tortured, and after that he disappeared.

21 Q. Yes. Please proceed to the next person you remember.

22 A. The next person was Zulfo Veiz. And Veiz -- I remember Zulfo was

23 a police officer and Veiz -- this is the son of this person that I

24 described earlier, Edhem, who was in the isolation cell. Veiz, I'm not

25 quite sure whether he was in Room 11. Maybe he was in Room 15 directly

1 above for a while.

2 Q. How often was Mr. Zulfo Veiz taken out and did you see him return

3 with injuries?

4 A. Yes. He was taken out once or twice in the same way and after

5 that he disappeared.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This is the person C-29, and incident 5.27 in

7 the indictment.

8 JUDGE HUNT: You have missed one out. The witness had earlier

9 referred to a Croatian by the name of Krunoslav Marinovic, and you may not

10 want him, I don't know, but he had mentioned him before you said, "Let's

11 take them one by one."

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, sorry. I missed -- but I have him here

13 on my list but I missed him. When -- yes.

14 Q. Let's move now to Mr. Marinovic. That's C-17 and also incident

15 5.27. What can you tell us about him? How often was he taken and did you

16 see him return?

17 A. Yes. I mentioned him already, that he was taken while I was still

18 at Livade, on the second or the third day which was at Livade. He was

19 brought from his wife's summer home, weekend house. His wife's name is

20 Slavica. He was beaten. He had a fractured jaw. He was beaten. He was

21 in a lot of pain. Then he was in Room 11. He was also taken out once or

22 twice in this period. After that, he disappeared.

23 Q. Yes. And you have -- who else? You have mentioned Zulfo Veiz.

24 Is there another Veiz?

25 A. Yes. Yes. The name Veiz, he was a merchant. Munib is his name.

1 Q. This is the person C-28 and B-59 [Realtime transcript read in

2 error "C-58 and B-29"]. What can you tell us about Munib Veiz? How often

3 was he taken out and did you see him return?

4 A. Yes. He was taken out two or three times or perhaps even more. I

5 think they must have had a reason concerning him. Later on, he was taken

6 in an unknown direction.

7 Q. Did you see him being injured, return injured from the beatings?

8 A. Well, I could not explain any injuries in detail because the path

9 is about 1 metre, 2 metres in front of the windows, but he looked in a

10 very sorry state as he was being returned, and he seemed concerned too.

11 Q. Is Munib Veiz a relative of Zulfo and Edhem?

12 A. He's Edhem's son and he is Zulfo's relative.

13 Q. Do you recall anyone else?

14 A. Yes. I mentioned in that group of four mental patients this young

15 man who had cut his veins, Babic. I can't remember his first name. He

16 was also taken out in this group.

17 Q. Do you know Asim Mezbur?

18 A. Yes. Yes. Asim Mezbur, yes, a photographer. He had an arm

19 missing, probably since birth. He was taken out in that group. Later on,

20 I think his brother Esad was also taken out. It is correct that he was

21 taken out, but I think that the brother was taken out later.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, Asim Mezbur is B-41.

23 Q. Do you know a certain Hajro Sabanovic?

24 A. Yes, Sabanovic. There were two of them, actually. What is

25 characteristic of them, notably one of them whose behaviour was sometimes

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1 slightly abnormal, and this particularly came to the fore in the prison.

2 He had a nickname, and for a long time he was in the same cell where I was

3 locked up. And he was beaten up very severely there because he quarreled

4 with the police. He was dark, tall.

5 There was another Sabanovic too who was a worker at the Maglic

6 company.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, Hajro Sabanovic, that is

8 B-41 [sic].

9 JUDGE HUNT: I don't know whether it was you or the court

10 reporters, but the earlier reference to Munib Veiz, according to the

11 transcript, was "C-58 and B-29." It should be B-28 and C-59.

12 MR. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. And I'm quite sure I said it the right

13 way.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Well, as long as we get it right somewhere.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. But I didn't notice.

16 JUDGE HUNT: It is very helpful that we have these references so

17 that we can check the transcript against the particular incidents.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. And I didn't check the transcript, so I

19 didn't see that mistake.

20 JUDGE HUNT: But I can see it would be a very easy mistake for

21 anybody to have made, wherever it occurred, as long as we get it right.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

23 Q. This Hajro Sabanovic, was he also in this group of people taken

24 between the 13th of June and the 30th of June?

25 A. I cannot recall whether he was taken out in that group. He was

1 taken out though.

2 Q. And you said he quarreled with a guard and, as a result, he was

3 beaten. With which guard did he quarrel and do you know who beat him?

4 A. I cannot recall. It depended on the shift concerned, which guard

5 was on duty. They worked in shifts.

6 Q. Do you know Avdo Mehmedspahic?

7 A. Yes. Yes. I know that name very well. He was taken prisoner

8 somewhat later. After having spent eight days in an isolation cell, he

9 was brought precisely to my room. I think this was the month of July. He

10 had evident injuries that he had sustained while he was being taken

11 prisoner or, rather, in this corrections building he described a room to

12 us there that is a torture chamber, a chamber for torturing people. He

13 described some kind of chains and belts that are used to tie up people's

14 limbs so that a person cannot defend himself while being beaten. And he

15 had a very evident wound in his knee, edema with water and blood in the

16 knee. Go ahead.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, that is the incident B-40.

18 Q. Do you recall when this happened to him, that he was beaten in

19 this part of the prison?

20 A. He was being beaten up as he was brought in, before he was to be

21 locked up in the isolation cell.

22 Q. Do you recall a Mandzo, Salko Mandzo? Do you recall this person?

23 A. Yes. There were two Salko Mandzos there. One was a more

24 corpulent one. He was a manual worker in the public utilities company.

25 He had a nickname too.

1 When torture was to be carried out, he was mistaken for another

2 Salko Mandzo who was very small and of slight build. He was physically

3 injured with something that he described as a knife. Also, his earlobe

4 was injured and the skin on his neck.

5 When they injured him in that way, he spent that first night after

6 that in an isolation cell, and it was only on the next day that he was

7 brought to our room. So that was while I was still in Room 12.

8 MR. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This is the incident 5.28.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you've given us the description

10 of B-41 to two different witnesses now, and when you look at the

11 Schedule B, 41 appears to be only one person and is given the letters

12 "MA". You've given us Hajro Sabanovic and Asim Mezbur for B-41.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think the Asim Mezbur B-41 should be the

14 right one. Obviously --

15 JUDGE HUNT: It looks like it, yes.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Let me just -- it's -- it's Mr. Hajro

17 Sabanovic that is 49, B-49.

18 Q. Did Mr. Mandzo tell you what happened to him and where he was

19 injured?

20 A. Yes. He is the one who told us about all of this. That is how we

21 found out that all of this happened in this corrections building, as it

22 was always called, on this ground floor, in this room where these tortures

23 and abuses were carried out.

24 Somebody recognised him and said that that's not the one that was

25 important for them, and that is how he, fortunately, managed to survive.

1 Q. And did he tell you who recognised him and recognised the

2 mistake?

3 A. Yes, I think he said, but I can't remember right now. I can't

4 remember the name of this person and these persons.

5 Q. And this other Mandzo, the lighter one, was he taken then

6 instead? Do you know?

7 A. Yes. He never showed up again. He is from this Muslim

8 neighbourhood, so to speak, of Donje Polje. Whoever was from Donje Polje

9 could hardly survive.

10 Q. Witness, you mentioned these beatings between the 13th June to the

11 30th June. How long did these beatings generally last in the evenings?

12 When did they start and when did they end?

13 A. They would start sometime around dusk. Well, it depended.

14 Sometimes it would even be while there was still daylight. It was

15 summertime, when night falls late, and then it would go on deep into the

16 night.

17 Q. Did you hear anything else except for the screams and the

18 beatings? Did you hear anything else on such evenings?

19 A. Yes. We would hear the shouting of these persons who were doing

20 this. Then sometimes people from my room would hear the sound of

21 something falling into the water. Then also there would be shooting in

22 front of the administration building and also one could hear noise coming

23 from vehicles.

24 Q. Let me clarify something. You said that people from your room

25 would hear the sound of falling -- that something was falling into the

1 water; is that correct?

2 A. No. I said that it was closer to people who were above my room.

3 I mean, I was on the ground floor, so it was more difficult to hear

4 something like that. So we were told about this when we went to lunch or

5 breakfast or some other meal if we were allowed contacts. Then we would

6 also see injuries on these persons that I described as being taken out.

7 Q. Yes. Thank you.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

9 show the witness the Schedule C, that is the Exhibit P55.

10 Q. Witness, we have already mentioned several of the people from this

11 list, and, therefore, we do not have to discuss all of them. I will now

12 refer you from one to the other, and you are requested to tell us what you

13 know about these people.

14 The first person, number 1, Alija Altoka, do you know this person,

15 and what happened to him?

16 A. Yes. He was taken out of the camp. I don't know the exact date.

17 Also, we already talked about person number 2 --

18 Q. Witness, please wait for my question. It's easier when we do it

19 in a more organised way.

20 Was this person taken out in the month of June, as you have

21 already described, or was he taken out at a different time?

22 A. I could not state exactly whether he was taken out in this first

23 group.

24 Q. Yes. Please move on to person number 3, Abdurahman Cankusic.

25 What do you know about him?

1 A. He also disappeared. I don't know the exact date.

2 Q. When you say that he disappeared, and also Mr. Altoka disappeared,

3 did they disappear in connection with beatings or otherwise?

4 A. Yes, they were taken out, and until the present day there's been

5 no trace of them.

6 Q. But did you hear the sound of beating when these -- when

7 Mr. Altoka or Mr. Cankusic were taken out? Was it the same -- similar to

8 what you have described before or different?

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Bakrac please turn on his microphone.

12 We can't hear him.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Microphone.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour.

15 I think that the witness was clear enough when he answered the

16 question, when he said they were taken out of the KP Dom and that there's

17 been no trace of them since. I think that this is a leading question in

18 relation to something that is being contested. Beforehand, he already

19 talked persons about which he had heard had been beaten, and if I

20 understood things correctly, we are going to skip over these persons'

21 names on this list now. So I think this was a leading question.

22 JUDGE HUNT: I think that's so, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. You can ask

23 the witness whether -- I think you actually asked him whether any other

24 incident occurred at the time they were last seen. But to lead him

25 directly into were there any beatings, I think, may be a leading

1 question.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE HUNT: In fact, I'm sure of it.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry, Your Honour. It was my understanding

5 that I had asked him before who returned. Up till now we have only spoken

6 about those who he saw return and who were taken afterwards, and now I

7 wanted to actually discuss with him only to find out if these people also

8 belonged to groups of beaten people or if they were taken away otherwise.

9 JUDGE HUNT: That's so. But have you got any material from this

10 witness yet as to whether number 3 had been beaten? I don't think you

11 have.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Well, your question was: "... did they disappear in

14 connection with beatings or otherwise?" Now, adding the words "or

15 otherwise" doesn't stop it from being a leading question. As I suggested,

16 I think you'd asked him sometime early, you should ask: Was there any

17 other incident which happened at the time that they were last seen or

18 taken out for the last time?

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

20 Q. Witness, you heard what the Presiding Judge had mentioned. Was

21 there any incident when Mr. Cankusic was taken away?

22 A. I cannot recall.

23 Q. Moving on to number 4, Refik Cankusic, what can you tell us about

24 him?

25 A. Yes. He was taken out once or twice. Later he went missing. He

1 has a brother, Abdurahman; we'll see whether his name is here. These are

2 two brothers who disappeared. Also, their father, Hasan, was taken

3 prisoner as well. He's still alive.

4 Q. You said that Refik was taken twice -- you said once or twice.

5 Did you see him return on one occasion?

6 A. Once he was taken out.

7 Q. So he was only taken out once?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And was there any incident on the day he was taken?

10 A. I cannot recall.

11 Q. And the next person, number 5, Enko Cedic.

12 A. I think that the first name is not correct here. The last name is

13 all right. If this is a person with a degree in law from Tjentiste, then

14 that's him. He also disappeared. I can't remember when.

15 Q. And what would be the correct name?

16 A. I knew him personally - he's a young man - but I really cannot

17 remember whether this is his real name or whether he had a different

18 name. But the last name is right.

19 Q. You have already mentioned the person at number 6, Juso

20 Dzamalija. Do you know why he committed suicide?

21 A. Well, I think because of the severe wounding and the family

22 tragedy he experienced. Also, the police were saying that he had a son in

23 Sarajevo and they held it against him, so that was an aggravating

24 circumstance in his case.

25 Q. And when you say "they held it against him," was he beaten?

1 A. That I don't know. I did not see.

2 Q. Moving to the person at number 7, Kemal Dzelilovic, what can you

3 tell us about him?

4 A. Yes. This is a young man. I think he had a degree in

5 engineering. He was taken prisoner. He was also taken away in that group

6 of 35 men that we keep mentioning. His father was with me in Room 12,

7 Halim. Halim or Halil, I can't remember exactly. He was sad when he

8 found out that his son had been taken out and had disappeared.

9 Q. And the person at number 8, Ramo Dzendusic.

10 A. He was taken prisoner somewhere up there near Montenegro, in his

11 village. I don't know whether he survived, whether he's still alive or

12 whether he's missing.

13 Q. And now the person at number 10, Nail Hodzic.

14 A. Yes, yes, yes. He is a person who was also in this group of 35

15 missing persons. He's an elderly man.

16 Q. And number 11, Mate Ivancic.

17 A. Yes, yes. Well, this is also a medical technician by profession.

18 He worked in the hospital. He's a Croat, an ethnic Croat. I don't know

19 exactly when he was taken out.

20 Q. And the person, Esad Kiselica, number 12.

21 A. Well, that's the person we mentioned a few minutes ago, the one I

22 could not remember, who died at an early stage because of that bleeding.

23 Think back. Can you remember that, when we mentioned that a few minutes

24 ago?

25 Q. Are you sure that the last name is Kiselica?

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1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. Do you know an Esad Hadzic?

3 A. Yes, yes, I know Esad Hadzic too. Right, yes. Esad Hadzic and

4 Esad Kiselica, I always kept taking one for the other. I knew who they

5 were, but I think that now again I've taken one for the other. I think

6 that Hadzic was the one that we discussed a few minutes ago. I don't know

7 what happened to Kiselica.

8 Q. And now number 14, Adil Krajcin.

9 A. Yes, yes, this is noteworthy. I knew him well. He's also a young

10 man. He worked in the mine as an economist. He was taken prisoner due to

11 an unfortunate incident when he went to see his apartment in Foca. He was

12 taken out precisely on the 1st or 2nd of August, 1992 with two brothers, I

13 think. Their names are -- oh, I'll remember their names. But they are

14 from Miljevina. I can't see their names here. They're called Dzanko.

15 These two brothers, they're young men, they were taken together with him,

16 with this man named Krajcin. They're not here on this list.

17 Q. Was there any incident on that day, on the 1st or 2nd of August?

18 A. Yes, yes. There was fighting at the Trnovo front line, there were

19 persons killed there, and the police very quickly, in broad daylight, ran

20 into the compound, searched for him and these two that I mentioned, the

21 Dzanko brothers, and the three of them and yet another person, I think,

22 were taken away.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, it is time for a break.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. We'll resume at 2.30.

25 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Witness, before the break, we had already discussed number 14.

5 Let's move to number 15 of Schedule C, Mustafa Kuloglija. What can you

6 tell us about him?

7 A. Could I have the list, please. The person under number 15,

8 Mustafa Kuloglija, was also captured. He was also in the camp. He

9 disappeared, I think, in this group that we mentioned, this group

10 of 35. Yes.

11 Q. And the next one, Fuad Mandzo, do you know him?

12 A. Yes, I do. I think he was also a medical technician. So that I

13 add on to what I said earlier regarding the number of medical staff who

14 had been captured. As far as I can recall, one of the Mandzos was also

15 captured and he was a medical technician. I think this is him.

16 Q. And do you know how he disappeared? Was he in the group of 35 or

17 did he disappear differently?

18 A. I can't say how he disappeared. He just disappeared.

19 Q. And the next person, number 17. We have discussed number 18.

20 Number 18, Omer Mujezinovic.

21 A. I think there is a mistake in the name here. The last name is

22 correct, Mujezinovic. Samir. Samir Mujezinovic. He was wounded at

23 Ustikolina. He was brought to the hospital for treatment where he spent a

24 certain amount of time, after which he was brought to the camp. I will

25 tell you the exact date that he was taken out in another group.

1 This is a young man, a young person, a student of technical

2 sciences. So he was brought to the camp from the hospital as a sick

3 person.

4 Q. And when -- and how did he leave the KP Dom; when?

5 A. He left KP Dom on September 17, 1992, in a large group of

6 45 people.

7 Q. Was there a particular reason why he was taken out?

8 A. Well, this was a large group of people who were taken out, so I

9 couldn't really say why he was taken out as well if the others were taken

10 out at that time.

11 Q. And the next person, number 20, Hamid Ramovic.

12 A. Yes. Hamid Ramovic, yes. I know this person well. He had come

13 to bury his brother Abid Ramovic, who was killed on April 8th close to the

14 railway station. He was shot by a Serb sniper in his car, through his

15 heart, and he was killed instantly, his brother. So in three or four

16 days, he came to bury him. Then on the way back, he was captured at

17 Livade and brought to the camp KP Dom. Then he disappeared in one of the

18 groups. I don't know the exact date.

19 Q. And the next three persons, you already mentioned the brothers

20 Rikalo but you could not remember their first names, at least of some of

21 them. If you look --

22 A. Yes. Here is the third one. We mentioned Husein Rikalo, Zaim

23 Rikalo, and their third brother is Mithat Rikalo.

24 Q. Yes. Thank you. But you also mentioned a Hido, Hido Rikalo. He

25 is not here on this list.

1 A. Yes. Yes. Then we have the question whether Hido was maybe a

2 nickname from Husein. Husein, Hido. I think that's it. And then Husein

3 is his real name, his Bosnian name.

4 Q. And then the person number 24, Seval Soro.

5 A. Yes. Yes, I know him. He was also arrested, and he spent some

6 time with us in the camp and then he also disappeared in one larger group.

7 Q. And the person Kemal Tulek, number 25.

8 A. Yes. The same as Soro and the rest.

9 Q. And number 26, Enes Uzunovic.

10 A. Yes. The thing that is characteristic for him is that he was

11 tortured for a long time. He had been beaten a lot.

12 He's also a medical technician. So I add on to my earlier

13 statement about the number of medical technicians. He was working at the

14 medical centre, i.e., the hospital.

15 Q. And you said he was tortured and mistreated several times. Did

16 you see him return and did you see injuries on him?

17 A. Yes. He had bruises on his face, on his body. I did see him, and

18 I think that he had spent some time in the isolation cell where I was also

19 kept the first time. Yes, I could see him at the door. I don't know when

20 he was taken out.

21 Q. And number 27, Vahida, Dzemal Vahida.

22 A. Yes. He was taken out at the same time as the above-mentioned

23 Mujezinovic, on the 17th of September, 1992. He was a police officer, and

24 he was arrested or captured at his home.

25 Q. Was he taken out of room -- of his room on several occasions or

1 only this one time when you said that he disappeared?

2 A. Only once. I remember the time that he disappeared, on the

3 17th of September.

4 Q. Yes. Thank you. The other people on the list we have already

5 discussed.

6 Did you ever hear --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you ever hear of any of these people from this list? Did

9 they -- had anybody ever seen them again or did their bodies turn up?

10 A. No, never.

11 Q. This pattern of beatings and the disappearances, how did this

12 affect you personally and also the other detainees?

13 A. Of course this created a lot of fear amongst each one because we

14 would be asking ourselves, "When am I going to be next?" And of course we

15 would feel panic in the evening when the armed guards would appear and

16 start taking people out. This is a terrible fear.

17 Q. Could you figure out a reason why these particular detainees we

18 have discussed were taken?

19 A. No. But you could conclude that these are generally young people,

20 and then specially, in certain cases of the -- with certain exceptions

21 such as the Dzamalija. But otherwise these are all young people, healthy,

22 and I could really say that they had gone to be liquidated, if I may say

23 so.

24 Q. Did you or other detainees ever complain about this to the guards

25 or to anyone else of the prison staff?

1 A. Yes, we did complain to the guards about what was happening to the

2 people, starting from this group of people in June that we talked about,

3 but there was no reaction in any positive sense. They would just shrug

4 their shoulders. "We don't know anything. Others make decisions about

5 that."

6 Q. And when they said "others," did they indicate whom they would

7 mean?

8 A. Probably the number one person, the warden of the camp.

9 Q. Were you interrogated while you were in the prison?

10 A. Yes. On two occasions I was taken to the administrative building

11 for interrogation, to that left part, the central administration

12 building. I think this was probably somewhere on the second floor.

13 Perhaps the first floor. I can't remember precisely.

14 Q. And who interrogated you?

15 A. Both times I was interrogated by Zoran Vladicic, who worked as an

16 inspector before. Also, besides him, in other rooms, interrogations were

17 carried out by Koprivica - I can't remember the name - and I will remember

18 the name of the third person.

19 Q. Who took you to the administration building for the

20 interrogation?

21 THE INTERPRETER: I couldn't hear the witness' answer.

22 A. I was taken by the police to the administrative building.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

24 Q. Do you mean the guards in the prison when you said --

25 A. Yes, yes.

1 Q. What were you asked? What was the interrogation focused on?

2 A. They knew me quite well, my movements, and they just wanted to be

3 convinced one more time about what they already knew very well, what my

4 movements were before the attack on Foca, my activities, whether I had any

5 particular actions related to the party. So that was it. The second time

6 they called me to explain two photographs which were found in my

7 apartment - they were not clear to them - from my family album.

8 Q. Were you accused of anything in particular? Were you informed

9 about any charges?

10 A. No. The interrogator never told me that, nor did anybody else.

11 There were occasions when there were provocative questions, when there was

12 a group of journalists who came. The Crisis Staff had prepared a set of

13 questions, and then one of the provocative questions asked then was, "Why

14 did the party support the line of Islamisation of Serbs?" and what I

15 thought about that. There was another question which was quite insulting

16 to me which was asked by a young lady journalist who said that she worked

17 for a press agency from Novi Sad, but she was actually from Foca. I knew

18 her very well. Her name was Vesna. I asked her, "Aren't you ashamed to

19 ask me such a question? This is a provocative question and it's aimed

20 against me and my character. In the given situation, it's a very

21 deliberate question," and she just remained silent.

22 Q. When did this take place?

23 A. I think this happened between the 1st and the 4th of May in 1992.

24 I was still in Room 12 at that time.

25 But besides this provocative question, there was another question

1 also about what I thought about the return of Muslims to Foca, in view of

2 the fact that the town had been quite destroyed. So this was a question

3 for me. I answered: "Really, I don't know since I have no idea anymore

4 of what the town looks like, because I have been in detention for 20 or

5 more days."

6 Q. This discussion with the group of journalists, where did it take

7 place? Was it in the open or also in one of these interrogation rooms?

8 A. No. This happened in Room 12, in the presence of the police

9 there.

10 Q. In relation to this meeting with the journalists, you said the

11 Crisis Staff had organised questions. How do you know that?

12 A. Everything indicated that, everything pointed to that, so it was

13 my conclusion that really such questions could only come from the Crisis

14 Staff; from the Crisis Staff of the SDS, of course, which at that time

15 managed or conducted all the operations, until the civilian and the

16 military structures were separated.

17 Q. Were you prepared -- did you know that the journalists were

18 coming, and did someone prepare you for this visit?

19 A. Yes. I was informed before to get ready, to get dressed, to put

20 my suit on, to come out into this little hall in front of the two rooms,

21 and that's where this conversation took place. I was there and a number

22 of other detainees were present, including Gordan Hukovic, who also

23 disappeared in the group that disappeared on the 17th of September, 1992.

24 He was a Croat. He was the third Croat out of the four Croat detainees to

25 disappear.

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1 Q. Did you tell the journalist about the abuse and the bad

2 conditions?

3 A. No, no. They didn't even ask me that. This Hukovic, he could

4 speak French, and he said that he told them that we were being treated

5 like cattle here, that we're hungry.

6 Q. Let us return to the interrogation. You said that you were

7 interrogated twice. Were you mistreated during your interrogation?

8 A. No, they didn't abuse me personally, but I could hear in the

9 nearby rooms that they were mistreating people during interrogation. I

10 knew a young man who was 20 years old, Adnan Berberkic. He was abused

11 quite a lot and he was beaten.

12 Q. When? When was that, during your first or your second interview?

13 A. This was during the second interrogation, which I think took place

14 sometime in early June.

15 Q. Did you ever see detainees being beaten in the yard?

16 A. No. No. They did that undercover.

17 Q. Did you ever see detainees being beaten on their way to the

18 canteen or even in the canteen?

19 A. Yes. There were police officers who would strike somebody. They

20 would strike one of the prisoners lightly or more heavily while you were

21 going through the door. Amongst them, the guard Milenko Burilo was

22 mentioned because he had the habit of doing that.

23 Q. Did you ever see soldiers from outside mistreating and beating

24 detainees?

25 A. Yes. I think this happened only once when one of the rooms -- the

1 people in the rooms were aligned to go for lunch and soldiers appeared.

2 They went inside and then they hit a few people who were waiting in line

3 to eat.

4 Q. Where were you when that happened, in which room?

5 A. Yes. I was in building 2. I think I was in Room 23 or 18. I'm

6 not sure.

7 Q. Were detainees exchanged, and, if so, when did it start?

8 A. All of these groups that I mentioned as having been taken out, the

9 guards told us that they were going to be exchanged. So all of these

10 things happened under the pretext that they were going to be exchanged.

11 However, later we found out that these were not exchanges. We found that

12 out from the guards and also from Serbs who later came to the camp - I

13 think this was perhaps later in December - that these were not exchanges.

14 So the largest number of people disappeared in this way and only a small

15 number of older people were exchanged in the Trnovo front at the end of

16 1993 -- 1992.

17 Q. You said that guards later confirmed that these detainees

18 disappeared. When -- what did the guards say about these exchanges?

19 A. They always would say, "They went to be exchanged and we don't

20 know any more about this." But then we would ask, "So how come none of

21 them are getting in touch with us after several months or more?" But they

22 would avoid any conversation about this.

23 Q. What is your estimation of how many detainees disappeared in these

24 exchanges?

25 A. Yes. Under such, quote/unquote, "exchanges," about 400 people

1 disappeared, but in the camp, the people who survived numbered 200.

2 Q. You, as a medical person, did you have conversations with the

3 medical staff in the KP Dom about the fate of detainees?

4 A. Not particularly, but there were questions to the medical

5 technician and also to the doctor who was engaged, who was there to come

6 and examine the detainees. He disappeared in December 1992, and we found

7 out that he had fled Foca with his family, that he had fled to Serbia. He

8 told me at the health centre personally that there is great danger for all

9 of us who are in the camp, and I asked him why. And he said, "Depending

10 on which Serb gets killed on the front, three to five people -- three to

11 five of you would disappear here." And, yes, this is what really

12 happened.

13 Q. And when did he tell you that and who is he?

14 A. This happened in early May, when Foca was already captured

15 completely and when they were going towards Gorazde. His name was Cedomir

16 Dragovic. He was a doctor.

17 The second person who was also in charge of health of the

18 detainees, and he was there until I was there, was Gojko Jovanovic. He

19 was an older person. He was retired before the war. In the period of

20 aggression, they employed him to do these tasks even though he was

21 retired. He made a list of people so that they could each say what

22 illnesses they suffered from under the pretext that these sick people

23 would be sent for exchange. This happened in September 1992. Of course,

24 we were happy, and we told him what we suffered from. We told him about

25 our illnesses, but, however, the opposite actually happened. The sick

1 people remained behind and the people who were healthy left.

2 Q. Did you have to work in the prison?

3 A. No, I didn't have to work in this camp.

4 Q. Were you ever registered by the ICRC while in the KP Dom?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Why not?

7 A. No. The first time the Red Cross came to the KP Dom, on the 23rd

8 of June, 1992, and a group of 12 people, including me, were taken in the

9 early morning hours in a police vehicle to the basement of the bakery,

10 which was quite close to the KP Dom, and that is how they did not enable

11 us to be registered by the Red Cross. But other detainees who remained

12 behind who were registered said where we were, because a large number of

13 us -- they had said that a large number of us or a group of us had been

14 hidden. They managed to say that so that our certificates from the

15 International Red Cross state a date which was confusing to us. So it

16 wasn't the date when we were actually arrested, but it was the date when

17 the International Red Cross found out that is where we were or our

18 relatives looked for us. So ...

19 Q. Did you have to actually do work in the bakery or were you

20 hidden?

21 A. Yes. It was true that they said that we would have some lighter

22 tasks and that we would get bread, and it's true that this was a contrived

23 situation in order that they could remove us from there. So it wasn't

24 really any kind of important or significant work that we did.

25 Q. Was there anything particular about you and the other 11 or

1 12 people who were taken to the bakery?

2 A. They waited until it was dark and then they returned us to the

3 camp, inside the camp, without giving us any explanation. It was one

4 specific thing that the guard made a mistake and he took us down the

5 street before it got dark. So they attacked him for taking us along the

6 street, on the street. So this was taken as a sort of failing of his.

7 Q. But my question was: Was anything particular about you? What

8 kind of people were you, the 12 of you?

9 A. Oh, yes. Yes, in that sense. Yes. It was a group comprising

10 mostly intellectuals. So we remained as a separate group throughout that

11 time, before the arrival of the Red Cross and then after that. So we did

12 remain as a separate group that was not registered.

13 Q. You said that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden of the KP Dom while you

14 were detained there. Do you know what happened -- what became of the

15 prewar warden?

16 A. He withdrew from that space upstairs or to where the women's

17 prison was. So he was kind of dislocated. He was out of the town of Foca

18 where the Crisis Staff was. That's where the warden was before.

19 Shortly before the war, the colleague who actually worked in

20 KP Dom as a regular employee, I know that he would phone me or he called

21 me at the health centre and he asked me whether we had any medicines that

22 the warden needed, and I said, "Where is the warden?" And he said, "He's

23 at Brioni," and this is the place where the women's prison is situated.

24 So that's where he was.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, that reference to where he phoned

1 him, is that an identifiable feature?

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It also includes the hospital. People refer

3 to the hospital as well as the health centre. I don't think so.

4 JUDGE HUNT: So it's all right. Thank you.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

6 Q. Did you see this former warden -- did you see him in the KP Dom

7 during your confinement there?

8 A. No, I never saw him. We knew one another well personally.

9 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, the then warden, did you know him from before?

10 A. Yes, we knew each other.

11 Q. How did you know him? How good?

12 A. Due to the nature of my work and due to the nature of his work, in

13 a way, that led to our contacts at a professional and human level.

14 Q. What kind of professional contacts did you have with

15 Mr. Krnojelac?

16 A. He worked in school, (redacted)

17 (redacted), so that was this professional contact that we had.

18 Later there were also some contacts, (redacted)

19 (redacted). Sorry. May I just add something to this.

20 Mr. Krnojelac worked in a school; he was a teacher. He was

21 (redacted) teacher for about a year or a year and a half. He taught her

22 math.

23 Q. When did Mr. Krnojelac come to you (redacted)? How long

24 before the war was that?

25 A. Well, that was just before the war. I think it was March 1992.

1 Q. Did he behave usual -- in the usual way, or did you notice

2 something?

3 A. Well, he seemed angry to me, anxious, as if the entire situation

4 that was evolving in town and around it had affected him.

5 Q. Did he say anything, how he was affected and why he was anxious?

6 A. No, no. This is just what I inferred (redacted) by his

7 behaviour. We did not particularly discuss the situation, especially not

8 politics.

9 Q. Do you know the family of the accused?

10 A. Yes. For awhile I knew his sons and his wife. Later on they grew

11 up and I wasn't always sure of who they were. I couldn't always recognise

12 them; they're quite similar.

13 Q. Was one of the sons of Mr. Krnojelac wounded during the war?

14 A. Yes, yes. We found out -- we heard that he had been wounded, but

15 of course I did not see that.

16 Q. And do you recall when the son was wounded and how?

17 A. I think that was June/July 1992, one of those two months, as far

18 as I can remember. He stepped onto a minefield.

19 Q. Did this event reflect in any way the treatment in the KP Dom?

20 Did it change after this?

21 A. Well, yes. Guards were strict, angry. Also the kitchen staff.

22 That made us even more fearful. It had a negative impact on our overall

23 condition. Also in terms of food.

24 Q. What do you mean, "in terms of food"?

25 A. Well, the bare minimum was given, what they had to give, so to

1 speak, in that period, during this critical period.

2 Q. As you knew Mr. Krnojelac from before the war, was he a member of

3 any party; do you know that?

4 A. I personally think he was a member of the SDS; otherwise, he would

5 not have been appointed to that position. That position could only be

6 enjoyed by someone who was greatly trusted by the SDS, because there was

7 no other Serb party in Foca except for the SDS.

8 Q. While you were detained, did you ever talk personally with the

9 accused?

10 A. Yes, yes, we had two contacts. The first contact was late in

11 April, when I got out of the cell that I mentioned. I asked for a contact

12 with my family so that they would know that I was alive. People only knew

13 that I was taken in an unknown direction. So this was made possible for

14 me. I was given the possibility of establishing telephone contact with my

15 wife.

16 Q. To have this conversation with your wife, who -- what did you

17 actually do? Did you write to the warden or did you just request to see

18 him? Can you explain it in more details, please.

19 A. I sent a request through the guard. Since I knew him and he knew

20 me, as I explained to you, there was this human respect, to put it that

21 way, like before the war when there were good relations between Serbs and

22 Muslims. He accepted. The guard came to get me from the room and I was

23 brought to his office, and I made a telephone call to my wife.

24 Q. His office, where was it in the buildings?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The usher is gone, but my colleague can put

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1 the Exhibit 6/1 onto the ELMO.

2 Q. Could you point out where you were taken?

3 A. Well, the first time I was taken from Room 12. Along these short

4 steps and the short path to this administrative building, there was this

5 heavy metal door there which had a very characteristic sound that we

6 prisoners will never forget. Every time you would hear that door bang you

7 would know that somebody was either being brought in or taken out. And

8 then you take this short hallway to the left, and there was some kind of a

9 room for visitors to previous convicts. That was on the ground floor.

10 This belonged to the central administration building rather than to the

11 building of corrections.

12 Q. Witness, you were moving around with this pointer. Can you put

13 your pointer on the room that you just mentioned as the visitors' room.

14 A. See here? This is the canteen, the former canteen. Wait a

15 minute. Or next to the canteen. This is the room for visitors here.

16 Ground floor. What does it say over here? What does it say here? Yes.

17 Okay. That's it. I think it was here. I think it was here. Here, it's

18 marked 1 and 2.

19 Q. Witness --

20 A. And this hall where it says "Sala," that's where it was.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness just said it's the Sala.

22 JUDGE HUNT: It's been saved. Unfortunately, of course, we have

23 the problem that at the time when the witness is using the pointer, he is

24 saying something which we don't get the translation for for some few

25 seconds. But I think it's saved now. He was, indeed, intending to point

1 to the Sala and the rooms marked 1 and 2, and that can be noted in the

2 transcript. It doesn't matter where he's pointing.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

4 Q. When you came to this room Sala, was Mr. Krnojelac already in the

5 room? And if so, was he alone?

6 A. Yes, he was there, and I think his son. He was in camouflage

7 uniform, both he and his son. His son was armed. There was a regular

8 exchange of greetings, and conversation was brief.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Usher, you can leave this position now.

10 Thank you.

11 Q. You said that the son was armed. What kind of arms did the son

12 have?

13 A. As far as I know and as far as I can remember now, it was a

14 Kalashnikov or something. I am not very knowledgable about weapons. I

15 know the old rifle of the former JNA that I had when I did my military

16 service, that M-82, because I had exercises with that weapon when I did my

17 regular military service. And never again was I interested in weapons at

18 all.

19 Q. And you said they had camouflage uniforms. Do you mean a military

20 camouflage uniform or police?

21 A. Military camouflage uniform.

22 Q. And did Mr. Krnojelac have a weapon?

23 A. I cannot recall. I did not see.

24 Q. What was the son's function? Why was he there?

25 A. Well, he was like a bodyguard, like security.

1 Q. And you said the conversation was very brief. What was said?

2 A. I managed to reach my wife to tell her that I was near Foca. I

3 did not dare say the place; I was not supposed to say where I was

4 exactly. I said I was well. I said that she should take care of the

5 children.

6 Q. But what did you speak with Mr. Krnojelac about? What did he

7 say? What did you say?

8 A. Well, after saying hello to one another, we practically complained

9 about the situation to one another by mimic. And he said, "Well, Doctor,

10 there is a war going on. There is a catastrophe." He was justifying

11 everything by this war situation. He mentioned that his house had burned

12 down -- that his house burned down as well, and that all of this was a

13 misfortune.

14 Q. Did you speak about the conditions at the KP Dom and why you were

15 there? Did you ask him or did he say anything -- did he himself say

16 something?

17 A. I did not ask him why I was there. I mean, there were a lot of

18 people already in the camp. Well, "camp" is not a word that was

19 permitted. It was prison. So we kept using the word "prison" rather than

20 "camp." And also I was saying that it would be a good thing to have

21 medical care as soon as possible; that's what we talked about. And we

22 said that Cedomir Dragovic, a colleague who worked with convicts in the

23 prison before that, would be a good idea, a person who was familiar with

24 the method of work, just as I did this too.

25 Q. After this conversation, did you try to see Mr. Krnojelac again?

1 A. Yes, yes. That was this critical period of June/July. I sent

2 requests in writing and orally, asking him to receive me, because I

3 realised that I was still losing weight and I was wondering whether

4 something could be done about an exchange and an overall improvement of

5 conditions in the camp, especially because some kind of exchange of

6 prisoners from Foca for prisoners from Sarajevo was being mentioned, and

7 that had greatly pleased us. And we were living in the hope that this

8 would happen as soon as possible, so I wanted to talk to him about that,

9 in that sense. However, I could not reach him; he would not receive me.

10 Q. But you said you saw him twice. When was the second time?

11 A. When I say twice, I mean this direct contact. I saw him many

12 times moving about with the guards through the compound, around the

13 compound, as he was carrying out his duties as a warden, from my room,

14 from various rooms where I was standing. And on the 10th of June, 1993,

15 we had our other, second, direct contact.

16 Q. Did you request this contact, this second direct contact?

17 A. Yes, yes, and this was in writing. And this was made possible for

18 me; namely, we talked once again in the same room.

19 Q. And who was present besides you and Mr. Krnojelac?

20 A. Well, at that time I can't remember, really, whether there was

21 anyone else who was present.

22 Q. What was Mr. Krnojelac wearing that time?

23 A. I can't remember now. I think it was still a uniform, a military

24 uniform. We were already used to seeing it, to seeing people in that

25 uniform, people who had these duties.

1 As for the conversation, my questions were what would happen to

2 us, that I was ill. Already then I could not walk downstairs from the

3 third floor to the canteen. My leg hurt me a lot. So I asked for food to

4 be brought to me, to my room, because I could not manage to walk

5 downstairs so fast and get out like the rest of them. And the guards were

6 telling me to hurry up, so I couldn't even manage to eat what I was

7 given. In that period, I had my ration of food brought to me in the

8 room. And I was seriously concerned about my condition. That was the

9 main reason why I requested another meeting with him as he was the person

10 responsible.

11 Q. And what did he tell you when you spoke about your condition?

12 A. He said that it did not depend upon him, really; that he could not

13 influence my exchange because it was a higher command that was deciding on

14 that, that's what he told me, his Superior Command.

15 Then he mentioned something to me that greatly surprised me and

16 worried me, when he said that a few days before that he had attended a

17 meeting in Bijeljina with all wardens of camps from all over

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that general camp problems were discussed at that

19 meeting. And he said, unfortunately it was not only that camp, but that

20 practically every municipality had a camp. I was astonished by this

21 revelation.

22 Q. Where is Bijeljina? You mentioned he went to Bijeljina for a

23 meeting.

24 A. Yes. Bijeljina is to the north-east. It is a big municipality on

25 the north-east -- in the north-east of Bosnia. It is flat land, and it

1 borders on Serbia.

2 Q. Did he indicate how many camps? You said you got the impression

3 that every municipality had a camp. What did he say exactly that you got

4 this impression?

5 A. That is precisely what he said: "Unfortunately, it is not only

6 this camp. All municipalities have camps." And I was assured of that. I

7 realised that, indeed, things were so when I came to Kula. Soon after

8 that I went to Kula, and in Kula I met people from Grapska, Doboj, Banja

9 Luka, Visegrad, many places, Zvornik, Bijeljina, Batkovic, the camp of

10 Batkovic. That's where I met camp inmates from many municipalities. From

11 Rogatici as well.

12 Q. Did you speak about the bad living conditions with him on that

13 occasion, especially the food situation?

14 A. We mentioned that problem too, but what was said was that nothing

15 could be done about that. There was a war that was well under way. What

16 was said was that nothing special could be done in respect of that.

17 Q. You said that he mentioned his Superior Command. Did he indicate

18 who that was?

19 A. Well, indirectly, it was logical that it was some kind of a

20 military command to which he was subordinated. And he said that they were

21 there as a service of this military command.

22 Q. Did you ever meet or hear who the military commander was?

23 A. Yes. A group of prisoners, three of them all with the last name

24 of Cengic, went early one morning to be interviewed by him and

25 Milan Kovac, the commander of the units in Foca. They were supposed to go

1 to Belgrade and be freed somehow in that way. However, that would not

2 happen on that day. When they talked to them in the morning hours and

3 when the guards told them that they would be going that day, because there

4 was a problem of gasoline or whatever in terms of reaching Belgrade. So

5 this group returned to our room and told us that the commander had

6 lectured them, that it was impossible to live with Muslims anymore, and

7 that it was high time for the Serbs to live and that there will be no more

8 life with you. So people -- these people returned to the room quite

9 frightened. Is it necessary for me to mention names?

10 Q. I would like to hear from you first. You have mentioned Cengic.

11 When? When was that? Which month or even day? When did this

12 conversation take place?

13 A. I think this was January/February 1993. It's 1993 mostly.

14 Q. And the Cengic, who were they, those three you mentioned?

15 A. That's a group of related persons who lived in a small place,

16 Miljevina. One of them was blind; his name was Fehim. The other one was

17 quite old; his name was Nezir. He was about 80 years old when he was

18 brought to the camp. He had been treated in hospital before that. So he

19 was brought from hospital directly to the camp. He had had a heart

20 attack. The third one was somewhat younger. His name was Hilmo.

21 Q. And these three persons, did they tell you -- did they mention who

22 was present besides this military commander Kovac?

23 A. Yes. They mentioned Mr. Krnojelac and Mr. Kovac, that they were

24 there, that they conducted this interview with them.

25 Q. You mentioned that you spoke twice to Mr. Krnojelac. Do you know

1 if any other detainees spoke with Mr. Krnojelac --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. -- personally and would you know what they talked about?

4 A. I think there were other people who talked to Mr. Krnojelac, among

5 them Professor Husein Lojo and his brother Dzevad, and I think a few other

6 people during that long period of time had brief contacts. I cannot

7 recall right now what they said to us, what kind of a conversation took

8 place.

9 Q. And besides Mr. Krnojelac, who was the second in command? Do you

10 know that?

11 A. The second in command was his deputy, Savo, Savo Todovic.

12 Todovic, Savo Todovic.

13 Q. Did he have a special function within the prison? Did he have

14 special tasks?

15 A. Well, that was the second person in command in the camp hierarchy,

16 the first one after Mr. Krnojelac.

17 Q. Did you see him in the prison and did you ever talk to him

18 personally?

19 A. Yes. Yes, we talked twice, I think, with regard to the same

20 issues that we already mentioned: bad living conditions, bad hygienic

21 conditions, poor food, things like that. That is to say that I talked to

22 him about twice, briefly. The answer was that nothing could be done, that

23 that's the way things were. Other people also had such brief contacts

24 with him.

25 Q. Do you recall who was the commander of the guards?

1 A. Yes. Yes. Mr. Nikola Rasevic.

2 Q. Did you talk to him personally about the living conditions?

3 A. Not particularly, in view of the fact that his position was

4 different, although our problems were often mentioned to the guards as

5 well. When people are in trouble, they talk about it to everyone.

6 Everyone seeks help.

7 Q. When you saw Mr. Todovic and Mr. Rasevic in the prison, what did

8 they wear?

9 A. Sometimes they were in uniform and sometimes they were in civilian

10 clothes.

11 Q. And when you say "uniform," do you mean a military uniform or a

12 police?

13 A. Yes. Yes. Military uniform and also civilian clothes.

14 Q. The guards in the prison, what did they wear?

15 A. They wore the usual guard's uniform which they had before the war,

16 but often they also had a military uniform so that they would wear

17 different uniforms, if I may say so, camouflage uniforms, the multicolored

18 ones, standard police uniforms, and so on.

19 Q. You have already mentioned one guard who hit detainees. You said

20 Burilo, Burilo did that. Do you recall any other --

21 A. Milenko Burilo.

22 Q. But wait for my question, please. Do you recall any other guard

23 who in particular abused detainees?

24 A. I think that he stood out in particular. Dragomir or Mihajlo

25 Vukovic. I'm not actually sure about the first name. But I wouldn't want

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1 to mix him up with Manojlo Vukovic, who was dark, somewhat older than the

2 previously-mentioned person, and he was pretty moderate. He was a police

3 officer before, and I knew him from KP Dom.

4 The first-mentioned person was young, had brown hair, tall, and

5 he -- it was characteristic of him when the group that was taken out on

6 the 17th of September, 1993, 45 of them, that he at that time had

7 disappeared so that he didn't appear in the camp for some six months,

8 which was quite suspicious in view of the disappearance of these people.

9 Q. But, Witness, I had asked you if besides Burilo, is there anyone

10 you remember among the guards who abused detainees so that you saw it

11 actually.

12 A. No. This was hidden from view. They were officials simply. I

13 didn't really see anybody in particular abusing anybody else. Perhaps

14 there would be a slap or something, but this would be done in a tempter.

15 But this was also something that didn't happen so often. So I didn't see

16 that the police particularly abused those -- at least those who had direct

17 contact with us, they didn't.

18 Q. You said that you were detained in the KP Dom until the 5th of

19 July, 1993. Where were you taken then?

20 A. Yes. I was taken to the Kula camp near Sarajevo, not far from the

21 airport. That's also an area that was previously used as a corrections

22 centre, just like KP Dom.

23 Q. And how long were you detained there?

24 A. I was there until I was exchanged on June 15, 1994.

25 Q. And how many detainees were detained in Kula; do you know?

1 A. I think there were about 80 to 100 people, and it was a constant

2 figure because some people would come, some people would escape, others

3 were brought in. So there was a constant change in the camp.

4 Q. And when we speak about 80 to 100 people, were they all of one

5 ethnic group or were there different ethnic groups?

6 A. They were mostly Bosniaks and two or three Croats who were with us

7 directly, but it did happen that a military unit surrendered to the Serbs

8 at Grbavica, 67 of them. So the Serbs brought them to the camp. So these

9 67 Croats were held separately. So separately from us, the 80 to 100

10 people.

11 Q. And how were the conditions in Kula compared to KP Dom?

12 A. They were the same. We were placed on the ground floor, so it was

13 used as a camp for a year or more. There was a lot of damp. It was

14 messy. There was no heat. Conditions were bad. The hygienic conditions

15 were bad. There were lice again and other problems there as well.

16 I would also like to mention a group, a larger group of

17 mentally-ill patients who were captured around the Sarajevo front lines,

18 and the Serbs managed to get their soldiers in exchange, and they were --

19 these people were mentally-ill.

20 Q. And did people disappear from this camp as well while you were

21 detained there?

22 A. Not in such large numbers. They were not taken out for execution

23 in such large numbers, if I may say, but they disappeared in other ways.

24 It would happen that they would go to a work location and then they would

25 be killed, and it would be staged as if they had gotten killed by their

1 own side on the separation line, or they would come across a minefield and

2 so on. So this is how people were frequently seriously wounded and they

3 were killed. There were several cases where they were so seriously

4 wounded. There was the case of one young man who died because he suddenly

5 got diabetes. He was a craftsman, and he maintained the -- some sort of

6 facility. He was from Grapska, close to Doboj, and he had gone through a

7 few camps by that time.

8 Q. Witness, how do you know that detainees disappeared from Kula as

9 well? Did you actually see it or did you hear anything about it?

10 A. Yes. Yes, I saw it personally. They would go to a work location

11 in the morning and then they would be gone. There was a case where they

12 would be perhaps seriously wounded. They would go to the hospital; they

13 would die there. Then detainees would go to bury them. They would also

14 go to bury Serbs or to transfer Serbs to another grave. There were

15 difference tasks that were performed by the detainees.

16 This happened -- I mean, these contrived murders would happen on

17 Christmas. In January 1993, at early morning hours, at 5.00 perhaps, five

18 or six people were taken away, and then on the separation line, two of

19 them were killed there.

20 Q. Witness, you said January 1993. That's probably a mistake then,

21 according to --

22 A. Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. I meant 1994. It was a slip of the

23 tongue.

24 Q. Yes. Thank you. We do not need to go into more details of the

25 Kula camp. I just want to show you now two documents. The first document

1 is the document identification number 209.

2 When you look at it, is it -- does it confirm your time of

3 detention in Foca and Kula?

4 A. No. It confirms the total time I was detained in Foca and Kula,

5 from the 15th -- until the 15th of June, 1994. So this is true. This is

6 the true date.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Prosecution would like to enter this

8 document as Prosecution Exhibit 209. It's a certificate from the

9 commission of the location of missing persons of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Does it have a starting date?

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. It is from the 11th November, 1994.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Bakrac?

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And in addition, we would like to have the

15 witness shown the item number 210 of the trial binders. It's a

16 certificate from the Red Cross.

17 JUDGE HUNT: They will need to be under seal, will they?

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, both. We would like to enter this into

19 evidence as well. It's a certificate from the Red Cross, although it

20 shows different dates.

21 JUDGE HUNT: He explained that.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, he explained that already.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection to this, Mr. Bakrac?

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. These will be Exhibits P209 and P210.

1 Each of them will be under seal.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

3 Q. Witness, you need not bother with this document any longer. You

4 have already explained why there are different dates on it.

5 Witness, you have mentioned to us the injuries and physical

6 results of the detention that you sustained, and you spoke about the fear

7 you had. Did this cause any permanent physical or mental results on your

8 health?

9 A. Yes. I already mentioned that several times. Because of the

10 long-term poor food that we received, I lost a lot of weight. I had

11 difficulties moving. I had an inflammation of the nerves in the right

12 leg. So I had problems in walking because of that inflammation. I had

13 swellings on my legs as a result of poor nutrition. My vision is weak.

14 Q. Witness, let me interrupt you. I was asking if you still have --

15 if you have permanent results. That means do you still suffer nowadays

16 any physical or mental problems?

17 A. Yes. Yes. Unfortunately, all of these things that I have

18 mentioned are still there today, perhaps in a milder form, meaning the

19 symptoms, because today I get tired very easily in my extremities. So

20 after six hours of work, I get very tired.

21 Before I would work 12 to 16 hours and I wouldn't feel tired. I

22 was in very good physical shape. I don't smoke. I don't drink. I was

23 very careful. I am very careful about my psychological and physical

24 condition because I have had obligations also in my work and my family.

25 But today, all of these duties are very much reduced.

1 Q. And do you still suffer mentally today and, if so, in which way?

2 A. Yes. The main psychological consequence is chronic sleeplessness,

3 insomnia. Today I can't sleep without medication.

4 Q. Thank you, Witness.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these are the questions of the

6 Prosecution.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Cross-examination, Mr. Bakrac.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would like

9 to introduce myself to the witness.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

11 Q. My name is lawyer Mihajlo Bakrac. I represent the accused

12 Krnojelac.

13 A. Very well.

14 Q. Before I ask the question, I would like to say good day to you.

15 A. Thank you.

16 Q. Sir, you said that you were a member of the Democratic Action

17 Party.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. But not a leader.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What did you mean by that?

22 A. That I never -- when I went to the party and when I joined the

23 party, I never intended to become one of the leading figures in the

24 party. I was -- the leaders would always worry me and they would get on

25 my nerves if in any of their -- whatever they did or said they would

1 disrupt relations between the ethnic groups. So in this sense, I meant

2 that I didn't want to be a leader nor was I a leader. And the others

3 annoyed me and worried me when they would emphasise this too much in their

4 public appearances.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment. Sir, when you are speaking the same

6 language as --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Sorry. When you are speaking the same language as

9 the person examining you, you should wait until the translators have

10 caught up with the question before you start the answer. If you just give

11 a short pause before you answer, then the translators will be able to

12 catch up. Do you understand that?

13 A. I apologise, Presiding Judge. You warned me about this a few

14 times already, but it happens.

15 JUDGE HUNT: This is the first time that it has happened when

16 you're being cross-examined by somebody speaking the same language, and

17 it's accentuated there. So that's why I've drawn it to your attention

18 again. So pause slightly to allow the translators to catch up.

19 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before we continue,

21 could I ask the witness to turn towards the person who is asking the

22 questions, because it's difficult to follow the answers if the witness is

23 turned towards the Prosecution.

24 JUDGE HUNT: I don't think that we can tell him to do anything

25 like that, Mr. Bakrac. You can hear him just as well as you heard him

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1 when he was answering the Prosecution, if I may say so. I know why you've

2 asked for that, but I don't think it would be appropriate to ask the

3 witness to do so.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Then I will

5 try to proceed and put my questions in this way.

6 Q. Sir, did you ever, as a member of the Democratic Action Party, run

7 for any post?

8 A. (redacted)

9 (redacted). I didn't have any particular

10 desire to do this, but this was suggested by the party and this passed. I

11 did lose in these elections. I did lose to my rival. I never regretted

12 this because I always knew that I was doing a job. I was in a profession

13 which I would never change for a different one, particularly not for any

14 kind of political function.

15 Q. But if I understand you rightly, you didn't refuse this

16 nomination.

17 A. Yes, this is true.

18 Q. Would you be kind enough to tell me whether the Democratic Action

19 Party was a national, purely national party?

20 A. Yes, just as SDS was in Foca. Yes. Mostly it was a national

21 party, but all the membership really did try not to have -- tried to

22 prevent any nationalism from appearing in the party, which made a

23 difference. The aim of the party was to foster neighbourly relations

24 towards its neighbours. So I had nothing against the Serbs having some

25 kind of party which would unite them. I just want to say that there were

1 other parties at the local elections in 1990 where there were Bosniaks.

2 We will mention NBO, the Reformist Party, and also the former communists

3 which also had a majority of Bosniaks for its members.

4 Q. Does that mean that the Serb ethnic group didn't have any other

5 party other than SDS?

6 A. Yes, that's true, they didn't have any other party. But this does

7 not mean that any of the Serbs could not join any of the parties that I

8 mentioned, particularly the Reformist or the Communist Party in the local

9 elections in 1990.

10 Q. Since you were a member of the Democratic Action Party, could you

11 please tell us which of those two parties, I mean the SDA and the Serbian

12 Democratic Party, could you please tell us which of those parties was

13 founded first in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

14 A. I really can't remember which one of them was established first.

15 I know that the SDA was established sometime in May in 1990. I've already

16 talked about the party platform, what the party stood for in its

17 declarations and what its goals were: unified military, foreign policy,

18 and also joint currency, a common currency. We had no idea about what

19 would happen later, these conflicts between people. This was such a

20 far-off thing. If this was something that we could predict, I would never

21 have joined such a party if we had any idea if there would be divisions

22 and disagreements between these people.

23 When the party was founded and all the other parties, and their

24 programmes were something that was appropriate for everybody, and we were

25 talking about parliamentary election and the seats that they would win

1 according to the number of votes they won and according to the

2 population. But it was true that Serbs usually had more power, even in

3 municipalities where the majority was comprised by the Bosniak

4 population.

5 Sir, you are from Serbia, but it's a fact that this was the way

6 things were in Bosnia. Even though in some municipalities Serbs were in a

7 minority, they would have more power, and I think that the multiparty

8 system was something that didn't suit them because they had concluded that

9 based on that system, they wouldn't have as much authority as they had

10 before.

11 Q. Well, could I -- was this something that bothered you?

12 A. No. No. This is a conclusion that we got to later from the

13 context of everything that happened.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, especially when the answers are so long,

15 you really must pause before the next question. The witness is having

16 trouble, but you should be used to it by now. And the longer the answer,

17 the longer it takes for the translator to catch up. You've been very

18 good, but that one was not good.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I

20 apologise.

21 Q. Sir, would you please tell me which party of these two national

22 parties first organised a rally in the region of Foca?

23 A. You mean a promotional meeting. The SDA held its meeting first.

24 It was provided -- there was no attempt to rush into it. A few days

25 later, the Serbian Democratic Party had such a meeting because they had

1 their own programme. Nobody influenced anybody else. At that time there

2 were promotional gatherings being held throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina.

3 Q. Do you know what nationality was the first victim in Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina?

5 A. You're thinking of these conflicts that will happen later, that

6 will come later.

7 Q. Yes, after the foundation of the national parties. The first

8 victim shortly before the conflict broke out.

9 A. I don't know. I don't know the nationality of -- people started

10 to get killed, so who was the first, I really can't remember. I don't

11 know.

12 Q. I will try to remind you. This is an incident in Sarajevo.

13 A. Yes. I know that quite early on, a young Bosniak was killed not

14 far from a place called Kobilja Glava. Whether he was killed before the

15 first or whether there was some incident before in the town close to the

16 Orthodox church perhaps, but I really can't remember what happened before,

17 if that's what you're thinking of. And I don't know why that would be

18 significant in the context of everything here.

19 Q. Sir, I would ask you not to think about the significance of my

20 question. If you can answer, that's fine, but did I understand rightly

21 that you remember that the first incident took place at the Orthodox

22 church?

23 A. Yes. You reminded me, and I have given you the answer.

24 Q. Sir, can you tell me roughly how many people attended the SDA

25 rally in Foca and were you present there?

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1 A. Yes, I was present there, and I'm not sure exactly. There were

2 different estimates. Perhaps around 100.000 people or something like

3 that. There were many Serbs present there as officials, and also citizens

4 could attend. I saw a lot of my colleagues there. They were listening to

5 the talks and everything. Mr. Ostojic was a guest from the Serbian

6 Democratic Party as a person from Foca.

7 Q. Can you tell me after that where the rally of the Serbian

8 Democratic Party was held and do you know perhaps how many people attended

9 that rally?

10 A. It was held at the Sutjeska stadium, but I really don't know how

11 many people attended. I don't know any specifics. I stated before that I

12 had some family business and I was away from Foca at that time.

13 Q. Some witnesses here mentioned that the number of people there was

14 10.000 people. Did you hear something like that and can you agree to

15 that?

16 A. Well, I have stated already what I know, so I don't want to repeat

17 that. Everybody has their own opinion and also their idea of how many

18 people were present.

19 Q. Sir, can you tell me roughly at that time how many -- at the time

20 these rallies were held what the population was of the town of Foca and

21 the municipality of Foca?

22 A. The municipality of Foca had a population. The inner city region

23 had about 13.000 people, and the municipality of Foca had a population of

24 22.000. In percentages, I think this would be 52 per cent Bosniaks,

25 48 per cent Serbs and Montenegrins, so counting the 3 per cent of

1 Montenegrins there, and also 2 per cent of others. So I think these are

2 the rough percentages.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think this is perhaps

4 an appropriate time to close.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. We will resume at 9.30 tomorrow.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of

8 November, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.

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