1 Monday, 22 January 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, the witness is still being examined.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Good morning, Your Honours.

11 WITNESS: RACINE MANAS [Resumed]

12 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]

13 Q. Good morning, witness.

14 A. Good morning.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

16 show the witness the photograph from Exhibit 18, 7375.

17 Q. Witness, can you tell us what we see on this photograph?

18 A. 7375, you find the bridge on -- in Brod which is outside the Foca

19 town centre.

20 Q. Why did you document this bridge when you were in Foca?

21 A. According to witnesses, they allege that Muslim captured men were

22 lined on the bridge, and they were shot and killed, and the bodies were

23 thrown over the bridge, and the bodies were later seen floating down the

24 Drina River.

25 Q. And do you recall from which place these men came from and when

1 that happened?

2 A. I do not recall from which place they came from, but it happened

3 in 1992.

4 Q. Okay. And did you find when you were on this bridge in Foca in

5 1996, did you find indication for this massacre?

6 A. I found indication, indentured [sic] marks or bullet holes, we

7 would call it, on the right-hand side of the fence of the bridge.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, we would like to

9 put these photos to the witness. The next photos will be the photos 7383,

10 7384, and 7385.

11 Q. Ms. Manas, can you show us on those photos such impacts?

12 A. Here, these were some kind of indentured [sic] marks or bullet

13 holes.

14 Q. And the third photo? Yes, thank you.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing out some quite

16 visible impacts on these photos from the railing of the bridge.

17 Q. Thank you. Witness, in the photo binders you have also a chapter

18 that is called "Ribarski Dom."

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And with the help of the usher, would you

20 please show the witness the photo 7408 -- no, 09, 09, 7411, and 7413.

21 Q. Yes. What building, what kind of building is on this photo 7409?

22 A. This is called the Ribarski Dom. It was a restaurant.

23 Q. Yes. And what was significant about the restaurant that you found

24 it worth making photos of?

25 A. According to witnesses, they alleged that the Serb politicians

1 held a meeting at this building, and also the Serb military gathered there

2 from time to time.

3 Q. Yes. And can we now have the other two photos, 7411 and 7413.

4 What do we see here? What is it?

5 A. Are you referring to 710 or 711?

6 Q. Eleven.

7 A. This is a front view of the Ribarski Dom.

8 Q. The entrance?

9 A. The entrance.

10 Q. Yes. And the next one, 7413, what does it show?

11 A. The side view facing the river, and the Brena Block of flats.

12 Q. Thank you. Witness, you -- in the photo binder, I would like to

13 have put in front of you photo 7360 and also 7364, and if you please tell

14 us what it shows. First this, yes, that's the photo 7360.

15 A. 7360 is the entrance to the Brioni farm. And did you want 7361?

16 Q. No, 64, 64. It's on the other sheet. What do we --

17 A. 7364 is the housing quarters where prisoners were kept during

18 lunch breaks.

19 Q. And the farm, why did you make photos of the farm?

20 A. Prisoners were taken there for work details from KP Dom.

21 Q. Yes, thank you. That's enough.

22 You made quite a lot of photos from the KP Dom itself. Where was

23 it situated?

24 A. KP Dom was situated in Donje Polje, on the east bank of the River

25 Drina.

1 Q. And in the neighbourhood of the KP Dom, did you notice any damaged

2 buildings?

3 A. Yes. There were several houses that were damaged, a mosque, and

4 the bridge opposite the KP Dom was damaged.

5 Q. Had you -- had your visit to the prison been announced to the

6 local authorities before you went there?

7 A. Yes. We did announce our visit more or less two or three weeks

8 prior to our going there.

9 Q. Was it made clear to the authorities in Foca that you wanted to

10 inspect and photograph the prison and see all the rooms?

11 A. Yes. It was made very clear to the authorities in a written

12 request that certain detention rooms and prison cells were to be viewed by

13 us, and the -- we required assistance from the prison officials, and to

14 speak to certain officials related to the KP Dom, and to make photos and

15 take measurements of certain detention rooms and prison cells.

16 Q. And how many days did you actually work in the KP Dom?

17 A. It was two days.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and witness please pause

19 between question and answer.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'm sorry. I will take care of this.

21 A. It was two days, the 17th and the 18th. The 18th included the

22 evening.

23 Q. Who received you when you arrived in the prison?

24 A. Mr. Zoran Sekulovic.

25 Q. Who was he?

1 A. He introduced himself as the head of the prison.

2 Q. Was he actually a trained prison warden?

3 A. No. Mr. Zoran Sekulovic mentioned himself that he was not a

4 trained prison warden. He came to be the prison warden since August 15,

5 1993. Prior to that, he studied politics. He had nothing to do with

6 prison.

7 Q. Did he explain to you why he nevertheless became the warden?

8 A. During the war, he was jobless and he had to do something in order

9 to survive.

10 Q. What did he tell you about Mr. Krnojelac? Did he mention him at

11 all?

12 A. Yes. When he was questioned about the supervision of guards,

13 Mr. Sekulovic mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac was the -- he had to coordinate

14 with a certain person, Marko Arsovic. Mr. Krnojelac himself wasn't a

15 prison -- Mr. Krnojelac was a teacher prior to the war, just like himself,

16 who was now a prison director.

17 Q. Did Mr. Sekulovic tell you why Mr. Krnojelac became a prison

18 warden although he was not a professional in this field?

19 A. He said everybody had to do something during the war, so he

20 thought that that was the reason why Mr. Krnojelac became what he did at

21 that time.

22 Q. Did Mr. Sekulovic tell you something about the camp as such, or

23 the prison? Let's call it "the prison."

24 A. He stated that the camp consisted of two parts: One part is the

25 military and the other part was the regular prison. The military part was

1 dealt with by the Herzegovina corps. The head of it was General Grubac.

2 And both parts were taken care of by the Minister of Justice, because

3 guards were employed for both sides, the regular and the military.

4 Q. Did you ask Mr. Krnojelac how they -- how this division between --

5 JUDGE HUNT: Do you mean Mr. Sekulovic?

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'm sorry, yes.

7 JUDGE HUNT: And are we going to find out who the person was that

8 Mr. Krnojelac had to consult? We have a name, but we don't know anything

9 more about him.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

11 Q. You have before mentioned the name of this Marko - I don't get it

12 now - of this person Mr. Krnojelac had to consult with. Can you repeat

13 the name and tell us who that person was, or what information you got

14 about this person?

15 A. Mr. Sekulovic mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac had to coordinate with

16 a certain Marko Arsovic, but I don't know what Mr. Marko Arsovic's

17 function was.

18 Q. Did you try to get more information about this coordination and

19 how it worked with the guards being guards for both parts of the prison?

20 Did you try to get more information?

21 A. Yes. Mr. Sekulovic said that the prison complex itself had 50

22 guards and they had to work 10 shifts. The shift consisted of eight

23 hours. And the first shift was from 6.00 in the morning to 2.00 p.m.; the

24 second shift was from 2.00 p.m. to 10.00 p.m.; and the third shift was

25 from 10.00 p.m. to 6.00 a.m. the following morning. And there was also

1 administrative staff which worked from 7.00 a.m. to 3.00 p.m.

2 Q. Did you ask Mr. Sekulovic how this staff was divided among the

3 military part and the civilian part and how that would work?

4 A. Mr. Sekulovic said that the guards worked for both parts.

5 Q. Did you try to find out how they could make this distinction and

6 how Mr. Sekulovic coordinated with the military commander and how

7 Mr. Krnojelac did that?

8 A. He couldn't give us an answer. He just didn't answer that.

9 Q. Did you ask Mr. Sekulovic to provide documentation on the inmates

10 during the relevant times and about the staff?

11 A. Yes, we did. I requested for a plan of the prison complex, a list

12 of prison officials, a list of prisoners, but unfortunately he said he

13 couldn't give us that. We had to get it from the Minister of Justice.

14 Q. And do you know if you ever got information on the inmates --

15 A. No.

16 Q. -- or the prisoners?

17 A. As far as I remember, no.

18 Q. After this meeting, how did you proceed in the prison?

19 A. I proceeded with two policemen and two prison guards. We took

20 photographs, as indicated in the photo album.

21 Q. And you mentioned the two prison guards. Do you recall or have

22 you written down who that was?

23 A. The guard commander was Mitar Rasevic and his deputy was Miro

24 Prodanovic, accompanied us.

25 Q. Did you document all rooms in the prison?

1 A. No, not really, because the prison was a really large complex. It

2 would take us two weeks or so to document every single room. And besides,

3 we were only interested in the rooms that were mentioned by witnesses.

4 Q. I forgot to ask you something about what Mr. Sekulovic said. Did

5 he tell you when Mr. Krnojelac left the prison and to which job he then

6 came?

7 A. He did say that he left the prison, went back -- he was director

8 of the school prior to the war, and after the war -- after he finished at

9 the KP Dom, he went back to teaching in the primary school, if my memory

10 serves me correct.

11 Q. Thank you. Before we go into the rooms, the actual rooms that you

12 documented, I would like to look -- I would like you to look at the photo

13 7442. During the testimony of other witnesses, the question was -- the

14 question arose: From which standpoint of view was this photo taken? Do

15 you recall that?

16 A. It was taken from a higher position. I remember we were standing

17 on a steep bank. This was across the road from KP Dom.

18 Q. And do you recall how much higher you were when this photo was

19 made?

20 A. No, unfortunately not. I didn't take any measurements of that.

21 Q. Yes. And with the help of the usher, I would like to show you the

22 photo 7529. Would that be the street level; the same photo, actually, but

23 the street now, from the street level?

24 A. Yes.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you.

1 Maybe we can also solve another problem at the same time. Would

2 you please show this photo to the witness as well. It's the photo -- I

3 can't see the number.

4 Q. Ms. Manas, would you please tell us the year and number of this

5 photo, the top.

6 A. 7528.

7 Q. Yes. And do you know what that is?

8 A. The arrow is indicating to a bridge. From the position where we

9 took this photograph, we wanted to show whether the bridge was visible

10 from the room that we were viewing it from.

11 Q. And in your -- do you recall which room it was that you made this

12 photo from?

13 A. Oh, it was Room 23, right wing, on the third floor.

14 Q. Yes. Is that the top floor?

15 A. It's not the top -- yeah, it is, I think.

16 JUDGE HUNT: It may be rather important. "I think" is not much of

17 an answer.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We return to this photo in a later stage

19 because from this room Ms. Manas made several photos. It's just that it

20 was on the ELMO now, therefore I wanted to address it. But we come to

21 this a little bit later. Thank you.

22 Q. Ms. Manas, let's move to the administration building first, and I

23 would like to -- you to have a look at the photo 7444 and 7445.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, it's on the same sheet.

25 Q. Can you also explain to us what we see?

1 A. This is the entrance door to the KP Dom.

2 Q. And on the bottom?

3 A. 7345, when you enter to the KP Dom to the one I just pointed out

4 to you on your right-hand side, you'll find this is the corridor leading

5 down the right-hand side of the administration building.

6 Q. Yes. And did you make photos of the inside of these rooms that we

7 just see here?

8 A. No. They weren't in question at that point.

9 Q. Yes, thank you. And now - with the help of the usher - the photo

10 7446, what do we see on the photo 7446?

11 A. 7446, this is on the left-hand side of the administration building

12 when you enter. The arrow down there points to the reception room

13 window. The arrow down there points to the entrance door leading to the

14 administration building, off the first floor.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: For the record, the witness was first

16 pointing at the arrow on the left-hand side of the photo, and then to the

17 arrow pointing to the door on the right-hand side.

18 Q. And there's also a board, a show board in this entrance hall,

19 isn't it?

20 A. Sorry, I didn't understand that.

21 Q. A board, a blackboard?

22 A. Yes. It is there, a notice board.

23 Q. And now I would like you to have a look at the photo 7448, and

24 tell us what we see. There are several numbers, yellow numbers, and can

25 you tell us what it is?

1 A. This is a view showing the ground floor. Number 1 was the

2 corridor leading to the admin. building on your left. This is a reception

3 room that we just passed. And number 2 indicates the door leading,

4 leading to the admin. building, which will take you to the first floor.

5 JUDGE HUNT: When you are pointing to one of these that does have

6 a number, would you please state the number so that we've got it in the

7 transcript.

8 A. Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

10 A. Number 1 indicates the passage way on the left-hand side. Number

11 2 indicates the door that will take you to the administrative building to

12 the first floor. Number 3 indicates a reception door.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

14 Q. Yes, thank you, Ms. Manas. The next two photos I would like to

15 put in front of you are the photos 7450 and 7451, and it's actually a

16 third one, 7452. In this order, please. What do we see and ...

17 A. 7450, 1 indicates the stairway leading up to the first floor, and

18 2 indicates a cellar underneath the stairway.

19 Q. Yes, and please say the next photo.

20 A. 7451, this is a stairway leading up to the first floor, and the

21 arrow indicates the left wing of the prison quarters.

22 Q. And would you be able to tell us, when you look through the window

23 on this photo, on which room in the prisoners' quarters would you look?

24 A. That will be Room 11.

25 Q. And now the next photo, please, 7452. Is this made from the same

1 spot or from a higher level?

2 A. Am I able to consult my notes?

3 Q. Yes, please.

4 A. This 7452 is actually the close-up of the window.

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. It's on the same level.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we have the photo before we -- the photo

8 that we had before, can we have this again on the ELMO.

9 Q. So would you please double-check. You have there the arrow, the

10 arrow pointing, and as you said, Room 11, and would you now please look

11 again on the photo 7452.

12 A. I'm sorry, it's on a different level.

13 Q. Yes. Is it -- which level is it?

14 A. That will be on the first floor.

15 Q. Yes. And the windows -- when you look through the window, onto

16 which room in the prisoners' quarters do you look?

17 A. Room 11.

18 Q. Yes, thank you. Now proceeding in the administration building, I

19 would like to have -- I would like you to have a look at the photo 7454.

20 What do we see?

21 A. This is a corridor which is on the right-hand side of the admin.

22 building.

23 Q. Are you sure that it is the right-hand side?

24 A. Yes, it is the right-hand side. As you enter up from the

25 stairway, you turn right. This is the right corridor.

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1 Q. Could it be the corridor on the left side?

2 A. No.

3 JUDGE HUNT: No. Look, please --

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's a little bit difficult now. It's --

5 JUDGE HUNT: She has said quite definitely it was on the

6 right-hand side.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but now I have to use a -- I have to use

8 the floor, the floor plan.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Exhibit 6/1. We have to find out what

11 "right" and "left" is now.

12 Q. Ms. Manas, when you look at this floor plan --

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This is actually the ground floor. We have

14 to use the photo 6/2, I'm sorry.

15 JUDGE HUNT: It's not a photo, it's a plan.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

17 Q. Ms. Manas, could you please point out to us which corridor you

18 meant.

19 A. It's this corridor --

20 Q. Ms. Manas --

21 A. -- because as you come up the stairway, I took it -- I'm facing

22 it. It will be my right-hand side.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Ms. Manas pointed at the right-hand side

24 where there is "Pravna Zgrada" written on. Yes, thank you.

25 I would like to show now to the witness the photos 7457 and 7458.

1 Q. What do we see on these photos?

2 A. 7457 shows the inside of Room 17. The arrow indicates this

3 corridor that I pointed out earlier, the one before this, the corridor on

4 your right-hand side.

5 Q. Yes. And but you say Room 17. Does that mean the rooms were

6 numbered, all these rooms on the floors in the administration were

7 numbered?

8 A. No, not all the rooms. Certain rooms had numbers, but the numbers

9 didn't run sequentially. Some of them were mixed up, so this room had

10 number 17 on it.

11 Q. And can we have a look on the lower photo. Would that be -- yes,

12 what is it?

13 A. This is inside Room 17, showing you the opposite side, can be seen

14 through this window which is the left wing of the administrate -- the left

15 wing of prison quarters, Room 11.

16 Q. Yes. And can we please have again this floor plan, 6/2. Can

17 we -- yes. Would you be able to point out this Room 17?

18 A. I'm not familiar with this floor plan.

19 Q. Take your time, take your time and look. Opposite the

20 administration building is the prisoners' buildings, and you see the two

21 wings. Maybe this helps you.

22 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, are you asking the witness to point out

23 Room 17 on this floor plan?

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

25 JUDGE HUNT: It's marked on this plan.

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, number 17 in the administration building.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, I see, right.

3 A. Now I remember. This is Room 11. It was next to the WC, so it

4 should be that.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing on the left part of

6 the administration building, next to the WC.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Well, was she? I thought she was pointing at the

8 second room from the end. You'd better get it clear because --

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, please.

10 JUDGE HUNT: -- the pointer was moving, but I thought that the

11 witness rested it on the second room from the end.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

13 Q. Ms. Manas, go back to the administration building and point out

14 Room 17.

15 A. As far as my memory serves me correct, it is next to the WC, and

16 opposite Room 11, so this is Room 11 as shown on this plan, so this should

17 be it.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the room next to

19 the WC room in this sketch.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, that's third from the end.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

22 Q. Witness, a minute ago , you said that when you pointed out the

23 corridor to us, that it was a corridor in the right wing. How does that

24 then fit?

25 A. Sorry. You were showing me the first floor of the administration

1 building, and the photo itself was on the right side, right-hand side.

2 Q. Oh, now I see. Witness, you only looked -- when you saw the

3 sketch, you looked only on part of it. Is that --

4 A. I'm sorry about the sketch, because I'm not very familiar with the

5 sketch.

6 JUDGE HUNT: I am completely lost, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. It may or

7 may not be important; I don't know. Her document that we received

8 Thursday of last week recounted the order in which she took photographs.

9 I don't know whether that will assist you in determining which photograph

10 we are meant to be looking at.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We are looking at the photograph -- what

12 number?

13 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. The one that the witness has said was on the

14 right-hand side of the building and which you're trying desperately to get

15 her to say it's on the left-hand side of the building.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Because according to the notes as I

17 understood them, it's on the left-hand side, the corridor on the left-hand

18 side, which is now actually confirmed by Ms. Manas, who said that the room

19 number 17 was on this corridor and she could see - as it is now, the photo

20 7458 - from this room she could look onto room 11.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if you're satisfied with it, I won't proceed

22 with the matter any further, but it's very confusing, to say the least.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Yes. Thank you.

24 Q. I would now like to show two other photos, and it's the

25 photos -- it's 7459 and 7460. Ms. Manas, is this also on the same floor

1 we just spoke about?

2 A. Yes. 7459 and 7460 is room 17. The photo just shows the opposite

3 side of the walls.

4 Q. And on this floor, when you documented this floor, was there

5 something that -- of interest in there?

6 A. 7460 you'll find the BiH insignia, the emblem, and also the walls

7 were scraped.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Ms. Manas was pointing at a door on the

9 left-hand side, pointing out a Bosnia-Herzegovina crest.

10 Q. And you said the rooms were scratched. What do you mean by

11 "scratched"?

12 A. As you can see -- I don't -- the paint was scraped. Certain parts

13 of the walls were scraped; not the entire room itself, but certain parts.

14 Q. And did you ask those guards, Mr. Rasevic or the other one who

15 accompanied you, why it was scratched?

16 A. Mr. Rasevic mentioned that due to the NATO airstrikes, the plaster

17 of the walls had fallen off, so they scraped the walls in order to make it

18 look presentable.

19 Q. What did you think when he said that? Did you believe that or did

20 you have your own ideas?

21 A. Well, not all the rooms were scraped. It's only the rooms that

22 the alleged torture took place were scraped.

23 Q. In which condition was the entire KP Dom in regard of the walls

24 and the floors and what the rooms looked like?

25 A. I would say that -- well, given the circumstances, it didn't look

1 all that bad. Well, just as I mentioned, only certain rooms had

2 particular -- it was particular attention paid to, you'll find the

3 scraping of the walls were done. For the rest of the KP Dom, it was just

4 left in its original state: holes, no plaster was put on those holes or

5 no scrapings were done to neaten (sic) the place up.

6 Q. Yes. And I would like to show you the photo 7461. You

7 pointed -- in the photo before you pointed at a door. Is that the door?

8 A. Yes. This is the door with the inscription on it. This is in

9 room 17.

10 Q. And did the prison staff tell you something about this crest or

11 this drawing?

12 A. Yes. Mr. Rasevic mentioned again that when the Muslims had

13 control of the prison, they had the insignias placed all over. He showed

14 us this door, and down the corridor there was another cupboard with a BiH

15 emblem on it or "BiH" just written on it.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. With the help of the usher, I would

17 like to show the witness the photo 7464.

18 Q. Is this the cupboard you just mentioned?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what did you think? Did you believe that?

21 A. I don't know. The rest of the rooms were renovated, and just to

22 have these signs left there would be rather strange, especially if they

23 are your enemy. That's the impression I got. Because the rest of the

24 rooms were renovated. Why didn't they clean that out? I don't know.

25 That's ...

1 Q. Ms. Manas, you said that you also worked there in the evening.

2 What did you do when you were there in the evening?

3 A. In the evening, Mr. Schouten, he conducted an illumination test to

4 test for the presence of blood, and he took a control sample from the

5 close proximity of the illuminated area, which showed positive; under

6 normal circumstances, it showed positive. And photographs were taken, but

7 unfortunately, it didn't come out clear.

8 Q. First of all, could you explain to the Court what exactly you

9 meant with the illumination test? What is it?

10 JUDGE HUNT: Just before you do that, do we know who Mr. Schouten

11 is?

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. We have mentioned him on Friday, that

13 he is a forensic expert from the Dutch laboratories.

14 JUDGE HUNT: And has he made a report about any of this?

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's included in Ms. Manas' report.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I'm wondering just what is the value of all of

17 this hearsay material. If it's in a report, it's in a report. What's the

18 point of getting it on a very imprecise hearsay basis from this witness?

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We have -- it's only -- the report, actually,

20 the report of Ms. Manas and Mr. Schouten is very basic, and it simply says

21 that an illumination test was conducted. And I thought it would be

22 helpful if she would explain what it is, because she was present. It's

23 not that Mr. Schouten was there and Ms. Manas was not there; she was with

24 him all the time.

25 JUDGE HUNT: If you want to fill in gaps in a report, by all means

1 go ahead. But if I could go back to an earlier piece of evidence you

2 extracted from this witness as to whether she believed whether somebody

3 else was telling the truth, may I suggest that a more appropriate way to

4 lead that evidence would be: What did you see yourself?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

6 JUDGE HUNT: That would enable us to make up our minds as to

7 whether this gentleman was telling the truth. Whether this witness

8 believes he was telling the truth is not terribly helpful.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

10 JUDGE HUNT: And she went on to explain it by giving us a

11 description of what she had seen, which demonstrated a reasonable

12 assumption that what the man was saying may not have been correct. But it

13 doesn't help us to have hearsay opinion, which is even worse than hearsay

14 evidence.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Okay.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

18 Q. So can you tell us briefly what it was that you did, you and

19 Mr. Schouten.

20 A. Illumination fluid, which Mr. Schouten sprayed on the suspected

21 area -- he didn't take the control sample from the actual illumination

22 area itself; he took it from the close proximity of the area and he tested

23 it with a tetra-based fluid. And when it turned greenish, it would

24 indicate it's positive. So he took a photograph of the area and control

25 samples.

1 Q. Where did you make these tests? In which part of the building?

2 A. In the administration building, first floor, near room 13, near

3 the corridor door of the administration building, and as well as the PTT

4 office on the ground floor.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, the word "positive" worries me.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

7 JUDGE HUNT: I have had some experience of blood testing in a

8 number of cases, and the forensic experts have a habit of saying that

9 something proves positive, but you don't know what it means. I found out

10 once in a case - it may have changed since - but "positive" simply meant

11 that it was possible that it was blood of something, an animal or

12 anything, but no more.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

14 JUDGE HUNT: And you really need to go a bit further before you

15 can say or suggest that it was human blood. Now, I don't know whether

16 this witness knows what this expert meant by the expression "positive."

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We were just going into this, Your Honour.

18 Q. Witness, what did this -- when you say it showed to be positive,

19 what did it actually indicate? What did --

20 A. As Your Honour was saying, it could indicate many things, blood

21 or -- as Luminal at that time wasn't a good thing to use for blood because

22 it wasn't specific for blood, because Luminal used during this period in

23 question could also relate to vegetable dyes and detergents, copper-based

24 metal. So one couldn't say that because it was positive green, that blood

25 was present.

1 Q. Therefore what did you do to clarify the matter? Did you request

2 a forensic lab to examine?

3 A. Yes. The swabs that Mr. Schouten had taken, the control and the

4 test, were sent to the Dutch forensic lab.

5 Q. And did you receive a result?

6 A. Yes, we did. The results showed negative.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. We would like to enter into evidence

8 the result of the lab, and it's actually ID in our photo binder 42.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Bakrac?

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. Thank you.

11 JUDGE HUNT: It will be Exhibit P42.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

13 Q. Could the illumination fluid have altered -- had an effect on the

14 results from the forensic lab?

15 A. As I mentioned earlier, that Mr. Schouten said that, at the time

16 in question, we used illumination fluid which is rather different from

17 what we use today, and that could have had an effect on the test, because

18 for various reasons - the surface could have been washed with a detergent,

19 the paint could have had vegetable dyes or might have had a copper base -

20 so that could change the results of the test.

21 Q. Yes. Thank you. You just mentioned the PTT room. Where was it

22 in the building?

23 A. It was on the ground floor.

24 Q. What can you tell us about this room? Did you go into this PTT

25 room?

1 A. Yes, I did. Well, I was curious to see -- there was a brownish

2 stain leading from the entrance of the door to the inside of the room.

3 The carpet, the stain was in the carpet.

4 Q. Did you make photos of the PTT room?

5 A. Yes, we did.

6 Q. But I couldn't see any in the binder. Why not?

7 A. Well, at that time, it wasn't in question, so I didn't place those

8 photos in the binder itself, but I have it with me if the Court would like

9 to see it.

10 Q. I would like you to put an example of this onto the ELMO.

11 Ms. Manas, the photos that you did from the PTT room, are they all

12 like this, or do you have photos that show the entire room, or that

13 really --

14 A. No. We, we only have the picture of the carpet, that's it,

15 because Mr. Schouten conducted a test with a tetra-based fluid, and the

16 control sample at that stage was negative; but in order to be 100 per cent

17 sure, we took further samples to have them tested at the lab.

18 Q. So we don't have any photos that show us the entire PTT room at

19 all?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we do not want to enter this

23 into evidence. It was just to show that we do not have better photos that

24 could really help.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Should it be given an identification number?

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We actually didn't intend to hand it to the,

2 to the record. It's just --

3 JUDGE HUNT: But nevertheless --

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

5 JUDGE HUNT: -- it would be preferable. It doesn't mean it goes

6 into evidence, it's just we do know which document the witness was looking

7 at.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

9 JUDGE HUNT: What number are we up to, the mark for identification

10 documents?

11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, it will be identification number 414.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Identification number C-1.

14 JUDGE HUNT: It's not C at all. What is the last document that

15 was marked for identification?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

17 THE REGISTRAR: That is for the Defence.

18 JUDGE HUNT: It will be 3, mark for identification 3. That

19 document will be marked for identification "3." Thank you.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you.

21 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, I'm told that we already have a 3, so it

22 will be marked for identification "4."

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Witness, before we go to the prisoners' quarters, I would like you

25 to have a look at the photos 7462 and 7463. What does it show?

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1 A. This is the entrance of the WC.

2 Q. On which floor, can you tell us?

3 A. On the first floor of the admin. building, which is next to the

4 Room 17.

5 Q. Yes. And below, the photo below?

6 A. The photo below is taken from the second door off the WC, showing

7 the opposite view of the left wing room, number 11.

8 Q. And the yellow arrows, do they indicate this Room 11?

9 A. Yes, they do.

10 Q. Yes, thank you.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

12 show now the witness the photos 7469, 7470, and 7471.

13 Q. And Ms. Manas, would you please explain to us what we see on these

14 photos?

15 A. On 7469, 1 shows you the entrance door to the waiting room, 2 is

16 the entrance door to the prison quarters.

17 Q. Yes. And the next photo? The arrow, what does it point at?

18 A. 7470, this is the waiting room. The arrow points to the metallic

19 door that will take you to the prison quarters.

20 Q. And you call it a waiting room. Why do you call it a waiting

21 room?

22 A. This is where the prisoners -- after handing over their property,

23 visitors wait here.

24 Q. And the last of these photos, what is it?

25 A. This is taken from the inside of the prison complex. This is the

1 metallic door that we referred to in the previous photo.

2 Q. Yes, thank you. Witness --

3 JUDGE HUNT: Before you move to the next one, I want to get this

4 document marked for identification business sorted out. I thought I had

5 before. The document that you showed the witness, where is it now?

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Which document do you --

7 JUDGE HUNT: The one that you said you did not want to tender, and

8 I said I wanted it marked for identification.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That was simply the photo.

10 JUDGE HUNT: But where is the document?

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It is with Ms. Manas.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then, could you please retrieve it, Usher, so

13 that the court deputy can actually mark it with a number and sign it so

14 that later on it can be identified as the document shown to the witness,

15 if we need to have it.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you.

17 JUDGE HUNT: All right.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Ms. Manas --

19 JUDGE HUNT: That -- yes.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise for

21 interrupting, but if you allow us, the Defence would like to see the

22 photograph. We only saw it when it was on the ELMO, but we would like to

23 see it later on as well and perhaps use it, if we need to do so.

24 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sure that the Prosecution will show it to you.

25 They don't want to tender it at this stage, but you should get that

1 directly from them. We do not have custody of it. All we have, the court

2 deputy will mark it with a number and some form of identification that it

3 has been shown to the witness.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: If it is, if it is more helpful for the Court

5 and for the Defence, we can tender it. I mean, it's only -- it's not

6 actually -- it has no probative value.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's why we didn't.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I'll leave it to you to sort out with

10 Mr. Bakrac.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We can tender it into evidence, yes.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Do you have any objection to it becoming an exhibit,

13 Mr. Bakrac?

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE HUNT: The next number is what, 410?

16 THE REGISTRAR: 414.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Fourteen. It will be P414.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

19 put again the photo 7528 to the witness. It's the top, photo on the top.

20 Q. We have already mentioned -- you have already mentioned this

21 photo, and you said that it is the view from Room 23, but when we look

22 into your photo binder, it actually says, "View from Room 28." Can you

23 explain that?

24 A. That must have been a typing error because my notes correctly

25 refer to as 23.

1 Q. Yes.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And with the help of the usher, to clarify

3 the matter, can we have the Exhibit 6/5 put to the witness.

4 Q. Witness, this is a sketch of the -- showing the prisoners',

5 especially the prisoners' quarters, and it's the -- this is the third

6 floor. Can you -- and you see on the sketch it's indicated Room 23. Is

7 that -- would that be correct --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- according to your memory --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- and your notes?

12 A. Yes, that would be correct. Actually, there's two rooms 23.

13 Q. Yes. And the photo was taken from which of the two rooms 23, the

14 left or the right one; do you know that?

15 A. I have to check my notes for that. The room on the right, be this

16 room. And I was facing the room, so it would be on my right. There.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing on the second room

18 counted from the left -- from the right, sorry. Yes, thank you.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Does that mean -- we can't quite see it from the

20 edge, and I don't have my own copy here. It is not the corner room but

21 the one next to the corner room?

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

25 Q. Is that correct, Ms. Manas?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. From this room, you can see, you can see on the photo, you can see

3 the river, the River Drina, and part of the bridge, as you said before.

4 Do you recall if you could see the bridge over the Drina from a lower

5 floor?

6 A. No, I don't think so.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

8 show the witness the photo 7472 and 7473.

9 Q. Can you tell us from where -- from which point have you made this

10 photo?

11 A. 7472, it was taken from Room 23 in the right wing. 1 indicates

12 the metallic door, 2 is the roof of the admin. building on the right-hand

13 side.

14 Q. Yes, thank you. And we have here the photo, another photo. Can

15 you tell us what it shows?

16 A. 7473, this photo was taken from the right wing of the prison

17 quarters where both the left -- the left of the admin. building, facing

18 the left wing of the prison quarters.

19 Q. This is indicated -- the left wing is indicated with number 2 on

20 the photo?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. Did you measure the distance between this point of view, that is,

23 the block -- the right block, and the administration building, did you

24 measure it?

25 A. Yes, I did.

1 Q. Yes. And what did you find?

2 A. Maybe if we put the photo after this which shows the full windows,

3 it's easier to -- for the Court to understand what I'm trying to say. It

4 would be 7476, I think.

5 The first window on my right facing the admin. building measured

6 up to 11.75 metres; the second window measured up to 11.15 metres; the

7 third, 10.70 metres; and the fourth, 10.20 metres.

8 Q. Witness, you were pointing now at which room?

9 A. This is Room 11.

10 Q. So these were the distances to the administration building?

11 A. Administration building.

12 Q. Yes. But I actually asked you about the distance between the

13 other block, the other block and the administration building.

14 A. The right wing?

15 Q. Yes, the right wing. That is, can you tell us how far that was?

16 A. Is it okay if I put my notes on the ELMO, Your Honour?

17 JUDGE HUNT: Do you think that that will help us?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE HUNT: If it does, please do so.

20 A. This is the right wing. From the left corner of right wing to the

21 entrance to admin. building, it's 30.80 metres, an extreme right of the

22 right wing is 41 metres to the entrance of the admin. building.

23 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, that we have that

24 sketch reproduced on another piece of paper and then we can have it as an

25 exhibit.

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, we can do that.

2 JUDGE HUNT: We don't want to put the witness's book into

3 evidence.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. Yes, we will produce it.

5 Q. Let me just refer to your report, to the report that we have

6 already entered into evidence. Did you make a drawing of Room 11 and

7 measure the drawing?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we have it on the ELMO? Your Honour, it

10 is part of Prosecution Exhibit 41.

11 Q. Witness, can you put it on the ELMO and explain just the measures.

12 Yes, please.

13 A. It's spavaona 1 and spavaona 2 are actually the rooms that face

14 the administration building, and 3 and 4 faces the rear of the prison.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think, Your Honour, you all have it at

16 hand; therefore, we do not need to go into the details.

17 Q. I only wonder why you called it "spavaona"?

18 A. That was the name that was written on the door itself.

19 Q. And does it mean "bedroom" in the --

20 A. Yes, it does.

21 Q. Yes, thank you. That should be enough.

22 When you went to this Room 11, was Mr. Rasevic still with you?

23 A. Yes. He was there all the time with us. He accompanied us

24 everywhere.

25 Q. And did he tell you something about the use of this room during

1 the relevant time?

2 A. He said that the Room 11 wasn't used since April 11th, 1992.

3 Q. Did you ask him such a question or did he volunteer it?

4 A. No. We just volunteered it.

5 Q. Yes. Did you visit the isolation cells when you went to make your

6 photos?

7 A. Yes, we did.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

9 show the witness the photo 7524 and 7519.

10 Q. Would you please tell us what we see on the first photo and the

11 second one.

12 A. This is the isolation cell on the left-hand side. 1, 2, 3, 4 are

13 the four isolation cells on the left-hand side.

14 Q. And the other photo?

15 A. 7519 is the isolation cell on the right-hand side. 1, 2, and 3

16 indicates the isolation cell itself.

17 Q. Yes. And also now the photo 7525 and 7526.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness switch on the other

19 microphone, please.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

21 Q. Yes. Is that one of such isolation cells?

22 A. Yes. 7525 is inside of one of the isolation cells.

23 Q. Yes. And the other one?

24 A. 7526 is a toilet in the isolation cell.

25 Q. Did you conduct forensic experiments in this section while you

1 were there?

2 A. Yes, we did.

3 Q. And did you find any clear message from the walls in relation to

4 what might have happened in the rooms?

5 A. Well, there was lots of bloodstain, but it would be inconclusive

6 because Mr. Rasevic mentioned that prisoners, especially drug addicts,

7 were detained in these rooms, and when they ended up fighting with each

8 other -- so it's possible that you would find blood there. And it's

9 not -- he also mentioned that if blood was found, it's not to be taken

10 that prisoners were mistreated. And before the war, prisoners used to

11 inflict injuries on themselves in order to be moved out of the hospital.

12 And during the war, they had no prison facilities for injured prisoners,

13 so the injured prisoners were kept in these isolation blocks, so you would

14 find blood because of injuries, et cetera.

15 Q. Yes. Thank you. And while you were in these isolation cells, did

16 you find any writings on the walls?

17 A. Yes, we found some writings on the wall. They looked like -- some

18 of the names that appeared on the wall were Muslim names, indicating a

19 detention period from 1992 to 1995. Some of the messages were very sad.

20 They appeared to be the final words to one's loved one. Unfortunately, I

21 cannot recall every single -- I don't recall any of the words written

22 there. And we also didn't make a photograph of this so-called writing on

23 the wall because it was very faint and Mr. Schouten thought it wouldn't

24 be -- it wouldn't come out clear if it was photographed.

25 Q. Yes. And how did this make you feel, these messages on the

1 walls? Did it have an effect on you?

2 A. Yes. It was very emotionally devastating. It, as I said, was

3 like a condemned prisoner's final words of farewell to one's loved one.

4 Q. We have already entered into evidence the Exhibit P42, the reports

5 from the forensic lab. Did they also examine explosives? Do you recall

6 that?

7 A. Yes, they did. Those metal fragments were taken out from the wall

8 of the restaurant which is opposite the KP Dom.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

10 show the witness the photos 7530 and 7531.

11 Q. Can you show us first on the top photo what these numbers 1 and 2

12 indicate.

13 A. On 7530, number 1 indicates the restaurant opposite the KP Dom;

14 number 2 is the KP Dom complex itself.

15 Q. Yes. And the photo below?

16 A. 7531, actually, the restaurant's front entrance facing the KP Dom,

17 bullet holes or indention marks, as you can see on the wall.

18 Q. Why did you make photos of this particular building and why did

19 you take metal fragments to the lab?

20 A. Some witnesses that were detained in the KP Dom alleged that they

21 heard shooting outside the prison complex, which is near the restaurant,

22 and seeing this, we thought this -- well, we thought this is what the

23 witness was referring to.

24 Q. Why did you think that?

25 A. It looked like a shooting scene to me, because there were

1 indention marks from left to right and right to left and at a certain

2 height.

3 Q. And were these -- what were these fragments that you pulled out of

4 the wall? Was it examined and with which result? Do you know?

5 A. Yes, it was examined and the metal fragments were connected to

6 explosives.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the details you find in the

8 written report on this matter.

9 Yes. These are the questions that the Prosecution has of this

10 witness.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination. Mr. Bakrac.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Thank you.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

14 Q. I will start from the end, from the last question that my

15 colleague posed. I would like the witness to explain to me or to clarify

16 to me that these indentions on the restaurant originated from explosives.

17 Could we be more precise and hear whether there was a shrapnel trace or

18 a -- what caused these marks?

19 A. I'm not a ballistic expert to answer that question. According to

20 the forensic report, it shows -- the metal fragments were remains of an

21 exploded grenade.

22 Q. Thank you. This is what my question related to. And now I will

23 go back to the beginning of your today's testimony, when you were showing

24 a photograph of the bridge in Brod and damage on that bridge. You linked

25 it to the massacre of Muslims. And I want to know whether you, with the

1 help of a forensic expert, a ballistic expert, were able to establish what

2 was the calibre. Were those bullet damages or they perhaps were damages

3 from shrapnel or grenades? Because as you probably know, the fighting in

4 Foca lasted for about ten days.

5 A. Yes. Unfortunately, we didn't have a ballistic expert with us,

6 and I for one cannot say that it was the scene of a massacre. As I

7 explained to you, that witnesses alleged that shooting took place on the

8 bridge, and seeing these traces of bullet holes or indention, I had the

9 photographs taken.

10 Q. What I want to know is: Are you sure that those were the marks

11 left by bullets?

12 A. No, I'm not sure.

13 Q. Have you noticed that on the side -- there were some damages on

14 the side and on the rear side? Were you able to observe that, that there

15 are damages on various parts?

16 A. Yes, there were damages on various parts.

17 Q. These marks that you saw at the restaurant and at the bridge, are

18 those the only ones that you encountered in the town of Foca?

19 A. On the buildings that I was viewing, yes.

20 Q. Thank you. You also talked about room number 18 in the

21 administrative building -- room number 17, I apologise, in the

22 administrative building. I would like you to explain or tell us how many

23 floors the administrative building has.

24 A. Well, offhand I cannot tell you unless I look at my photographs.

25 We only went to the first floor of the administration building, and we

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1 viewed the rooms that were in question at that time.

2 JUDGE HUNT: May I just clear up that, Mr. Bakrac?

3 By "the first floor," do you mean the American ground floor or the

4 European next floor up?

5 A. It's ground floor and then first floor.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Thank you. That

8 was my next question.

9 Q. Do you know what is located above that room on the first floor and

10 how many flights further up there are?

11 A. No. We didn't go to that -- the other parts of the building.

12 Q. And what was the reason for your going straight to this room

13 number 17 and not anywhere else?

14 A. This is the room that overlooks room number 11 of the left wing of

15 the prison quarters.

16 Q. Is that the only room in the administration building from which

17 you have the view of the room number 11 of the prison part?

18 A. No. This room on your extreme left, the -- as you see through the

19 photographs, the cupboard with the BiH sign, the blue cupboard, next to

20 that there was a room that was also numbered room number 11. You could

21 see part of room 11 of lettering of admin. building.

22 Q. If I understood you properly when you were answering the

23 Prosecution's questions, when you pointed to the exit from the room 17,

24 you stated that that was the exit into the hallway that you identified and

25 showed first in the photograph and then on a drawing. Is that correct?

1 A. Yes. That's the corridor.

2 Q. Thank you. When you were discussing the information that you

3 received from the current warden of the KP Dom, is it true that he stated

4 to you that he became a warden exactly on the 15th of August, 1993?

5 A. Yes. That's what he said.

6 Q. Is it also true that he stated that Milorad Krnojelac was not a

7 warden as of August 1993 and that he went to his old profession after

8 that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When you were talking about Mr. Sekulovic telling you that KP Dom

11 was divided into two parts - one was civilian and the other one was under

12 the command of the Herzegovina corps - and that there were guards there,

13 did he also tell you at the time that there were guards who were under the

14 military command and also guards who were under the command of civilian

15 authorities, or did he tell you that all guards were under the civilian

16 authority's command or all guards were under the command of the military

17 authorities?

18 A. No; it was clear that it was two separate guards, one for the

19 military and for the regular prison, but they both fell under the Minister

20 of Justice.

21 Q. In what sense do you mean they all fell under the Ministry of

22 Justice?

23 A. From what I understood from Mr. Sekulovic, that Minister of

24 Justice was responsible for these guards.

25 Q. Are you aware -- did you encounter in your research work, did you

1 encounter the fact that these guards, at certain intervals when they were

2 working and staying in KP Dom, also went to the front line?

3 A. I don't know. Maybe.

4 Q. If you allow such a possibility, do you think that the Ministry of

5 Justice was able to send them to the front line, or was it perhaps

6 Ministry of Defence or military authorities? What is your opinion? Since

7 we already heard some of your conclusions, what is your opinion on this?

8 A. I don't have an opinion on that. That is what Mr. Sekulovic said,

9 that these two parts fell under the Minister of Justice.

10 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you to go back to the beginning of

11 your testimony when you stated that upon arriving in Foca and conducting

12 your research work in the neighbourhoods of Aladza, Donje Polje, Gornje

13 Polje, and the old centre of town, that you saw some burned buildings

14 there which you believed were Muslim houses. My question is the

15 following: Were you able to establish the number of houses destroyed and

16 who were the owners of those houses?

17 A. Unfortunately, we didn't have that opportunity of doing such,

18 because we were escorted by the police, and at the time it wasn't safe to

19 go around and do your normal interviews and asking people which house

20 belonged to who.

21 Q. Yes, but you would agree that we have some statements from the

22 ground, dating back to 1999, and we also have a beginning set of

23 photographs that you showed, showing the work that was carried out in

24 September of 2000. Were you not able to establish this fact so that we

25 have no doubts as to whose houses were in fact destroyed?

1 A. I'm sure it must have been done with the investigative team. I

2 worked with the team for a short period and I worked in many other

3 investigations after that, so I cannot give you a definite answer in

4 regards to your question.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's 11.00.

6 JUDGE HUNT: We'll resume at 11.30, then. Thank you.

7 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Ms. Manas, before the break, we established that the owner -- that

12 you had not identified the owners of damaged houses. Now I should like to

13 ask you to look at a photograph - and I need the help of the usher - and

14 tell me if you can tell us what you see on that. It is 40, 7209 [as

15 translated].

16 So tell us what you see on this photograph and what it is about.

17 A. 7290, you see a few damaged houses and a mosque.

18 Q. Thank you. You said a few damaged houses and a mosque. Is there

19 a number of houses around the mosque which are intact?

20 A. Yes, you can see by the picture.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak into the microphone,

22 please.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. When my learned friend asked you, you said that you thought those

25 were Muslim houses because they were located around the mosque. Are you

1 claiming that all these other houses belong to Serbs, and does that mean

2 that the inference that only Muslim houses around the mosque is correct?

3 A. No, I don't say that there are only Muslim houses around the

4 mosque. I don't know why the houses around the mosque was only damaged; I

5 cannot answer that. And I'm also not saying that the houses surrounding

6 that which are not damaged doesn't belong to Muslims.

7 Q. But in your testimony you said, according to the transcript, that

8 you thought it was a Muslim locality because there was a mosque there, and

9 that from that you inferred that the destroyed houses belonged to Muslims.

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. So all the other houses which had not been destroyed were Serb

12 houses, or are Serb houses, are they?

13 A. It doesn't show whether it is Muslim or Serb. That's why I say I

14 cannot rule out the possibility it might have been Muslim houses because

15 it is a Muslim neighbourhood.

16 Q. Can you exclude the possibility that there are also some

17 Serb-owned houses amongst those destroyed?

18 A. I'm not sure about that.

19 Q. So are there only Muslim houses next to the mosque, or are you

20 allowing the possibility for some Serb houses in that same neighbourhood?

21 A. I do not know if there were Serb houses in this neighbourhood.

22 Q. Thank you. There was also evidence about samples which were taken

23 here to test them for blood, and naturally the analysis said that the

24 tests were negative, that is, that the presence of blood was not

25 established.

1 What worries me, however, is that in your report, or rather, in

2 your observations during the investigation, you nevertheless stated that

3 there were some indications about the presence of blood; and in today on

4 transcript, on page 21, line 20, you said that green pigmenting was a

5 proof of the presence of blood. However, you also told us that when you

6 talked to the person who did those analyses with you, you learnt that

7 green staining can also appear because -- in the presence of some other

8 chemicals, detergents or some other stuff.

9 A. Yes. The test conducted can also give a false positive for

10 various reasons, as I explained. It could be detergents, vegetables dyes,

11 or copper-based metals, which Luminal is not specific for blood. When the

12 tetra-based test was done for blood on the control sample, it indicated

13 positive. It turned greenish.

14 Q. The chemical which turned greenish, could it also turn green in

15 the presence of another chemical, that is, a dye, a paint, detergent, and

16 so on and so forth?

17 A. As I said, the reading can give you a false positive, and I cannot

18 get into details about this because it's not my area of training.

19 Q. I agree. But in the transcript on page 21, line 20, you said that

20 it proved the presence of blood; and in your report on page 5, paragraph

21 4, you also said there was proof of the presence of blood. Now you tell

22 us that it could have been some other chemical.

23 Can we then agree that you found no proof, no evidence of the

24 presence of blood on the samples that you tested?

25 A. As I said, the control test indicated positive --

1 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, no. Look --

2 A. But the reason why --

3 JUDGE HUNT: Please.

4 THE WITNESS: Sorry, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Please.

6 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, the evidence which this witness has given is

7 no doubt what she genuinely believes, but she is not an expert. She has

8 conceded it is wrong. How can we possibly rely upon anything that she has

9 said about blood?

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we can call the witness

11 Schouten.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that may be so; he can explain it. But there

13 are so many problems. There is a very, very well-known cause in Australia

14 where somebody was convicted on the basis of what was said to be a

15 positive reaction to blood. It was under the dashboard of a car and it

16 was alleged that a baby had been murdered in the car. When the matter was

17 reopened, it was found that it was some type of adhesive that had proved

18 positive. And this expression "positive" is absolutely meaningless unless

19 we can have an expert here to tell us what is meant.

20 And so far as I'm concerned, we have no indication before us at

21 the moment upon which we can rely to establish that there was anything to

22 do with blood there at all. The fact that it was not established does not

23 mean that there was no blood there, but you have no evidence at the moment

24 upon which any Trial Chamber could rely to say that the testing showed

25 that there was blood there.

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I totally agree.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Right. Well, then we can forget the rest of this

3 cross-examination along this line, I think.

4 Mr. Bakrac, let's get on to your next point.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It is quite

6 enough.

7 Now I should like to ask the usher to show photograph 407474, and

8 407475, the bottom photograph, the lower photograph first, please.

9 Q. Ms. Manas, will you please show -- point to us the windows of Room

10 17 in the administrative building.

11 A. That's one.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the witness is

13 indicating the fourth window from the left and also the fourth window from

14 the right on the first floor of the administrative building, that is, the

15 floor above the ground floor; and at the end of the photograph of that

16 floor is marked 2. Thank you.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, I'd agree with you that it is the fourth

18 window from the right. I'm not altogether certain it's the fourth window

19 from the left. But it's sufficient, is it not: The fourth window from

20 the right is the one to which the witness was pointing? The photograph

21 has not been a complete one. We don't know. Oh, I see. It's moved now.

22 I see.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Or maybe, Your Honours, the third

24 window from number 2.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. That might be the best. Thank you.

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And can the usher please help to show

2 the witness first photograph 407529 and then 407528.

3 Q. Ms. Manas, can you agree with me that this photograph was taken

4 from the bank opposite from the KP Dom?

5 A. Yes, the opposite side of the river bank but on ground level.

6 Q. Correct. Thank you. Now will you please tell me: What can you

7 see from here, I mean part of the KP Dom compound?

8 A. Can you be quite specific to me?

9 Q. Do you agree that on the other side of the bank you can see the

10 penitentiary, the KP Dom?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And that in front we see the building which we call the

13 administrative building?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That above the administrative building and behind it we can see a

16 small part of the prisoners' quarters?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you also see some windows in that part below the roof?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us which room that is?

21 A. That will be the right wing of the prison quarters, third floor,

22 Room 23.

23 Q. Can you tell us how many windows can you see?

24 A. Three.

25 Q. Thank you. Now will you please look at the second photograph on

1 that same sheet, the upper one. You already commented on this photograph,

2 but here I should like to ask you to explain to us for the record what you

3 told us, that this photograph was taken from Room 23. Am I right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you then please explain to us what does this yellow arrow

6 point at?

7 A. The yellow arrow indicates what I can see from Room 23, the

8 bridge, that part of the bridge.

9 Q. The Defence needed much more precise information for the record.

10 You tell us part of the bridge, but part of the bridge could also be the

11 road. What part -- or fence or whatever. So can we agree that you

12 actually see the upper part of the metal structure of the bridge arch, and

13 a very, very small part of this arch?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. Will you then please tell us for the record what is, in your

16 view - I don't know if you measured it. Perhaps you did, perhaps you

17 didn't - how high is that arch, or rather what is the span between the

18 base of the bridge and the upper part of the arch?

19 A. We didn't work on the bridge, didn't take any measurements from

20 the bridge.

21 Q. But roughly could you tell us?

22 A. No. I'm sorry.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 You spoke to us about Room 17 and some marks, graffiti on doors

25 showing the BiH coat of arms and letters B-I-H, and also similar

1 inscription on a metal cupboard.

2 Now, in your investigative work, did you find that before the 18th

3 of April there were Green Berets who stayed in the KP Dom for a while?

4 A. Yes, for a period of one month.

5 Q. Would you then grant that it might be possible that they left

6 behind those graffiti, those inscriptions, when they left?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You told us also that, on the walls of isolation cells, you found

9 some inscriptions which you cannot remember right now and that you

10 photographed, but why didn't you write down what they said; or when the

11 photographs could not be taken, why didn't you try to photograph them

12 again?

13 A. It was very faint. From whatever the interpreter could read and

14 figure out, those are the words which are found very emotional.

15 Q. Doesn't it sound logical to you that the prisoner would write

16 something like that, and that it will then stay behind him whilst, of

17 course, the guards could see that, and then punish that same person again

18 for writing it?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Thank you. And my last question is, Ms. Manas, did you do any

21 other investigative work in the KP Dom which you did not mention to the

22 Court today? Did you try to establish how this sound propagates? Did you

23 make some experiments with throwing objects from the bridge?

24 A. I'm not sure what you mean, "throwing objects from the bridge."

25 Q. Did you do any acoustic measurements?

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13 English transcripts.

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1 A. [No audible response].

2 Q. Did you perhaps throw some sacks off the bridge across from the KP

3 Dom?

4 A. We weren't equipped with sacks, et cetera.

5 Q. So just nothing, you did not try to throw anything from the

6 bridge?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you measure the distance between the main entrance into the KP

9 Dom to the bridge on the Drina?

10 A. No, we didn't.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

13 Honours.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination?

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, on a few matters.

16 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

17 Q. Witness, to start with, actually the end of your answers to my

18 colleague, he asked you if you established during your investigation that

19 Green Berets stayed or had taken over the KP Dom for some time. First of

20 all, who are the Green Berets?

21 A. The Green Berets were the, from my investigation, they were the

22 Muslim forces.

23 Q. Did you actually find out that they stayed there, or is it what

24 Mr. Rasevic told you?

25 A. It's what Mr. Rasevic told me, only know that the Muslim forces

1 occupied the KP Dom from the beginning of April to the beginning of May,

2 but I don't know which particular unit or military unit or paramilitary

3 unit occupied the KP Dom.

4 Q. And you have also here seen this view, this photo with the view of

5 room -- from Room 23 onto the bridge over the Drina. When you made this

6 photo, were you just standing normally on the ground -- on the floor of

7 this room, or were you on a higher level? Do you recall that?

8 A. From the room itself, no, I wasn't standing on the ground level.

9 The only way I could see the part of the bridge was I stood on a heating

10 device in the room.

11 Q. Yes?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. Are you going to pursue that line,

14 or have you finished with that particular subject?

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but if you have another question ...

16 JUDGE HUNT: Well, it seems to me that the photograph must have

17 been taken from a window which was not one of the three windows you could

18 see from the photograph taken on the other side at ground level. If you

19 had been standing at one of those windows, you would have had no

20 difficulty seeing the bridge.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Maybe --

22 JUDGE HUNT: We better sort out just from which part of Room 23

23 the photograph taken out from the room was taken.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

25 A. Your Honour, Room 23 would be through the trees. The arrow that's

1 pointing to it on the photograph itself.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I think we put the photo on again.

3 JUDGE HUNT: My understanding was that the challenge to the

4 Prosecution evidence related to the witness who was on the floor below who

5 said he could see the bridge from his room.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. But it may as well be that the witness

7 is mistaken about the room number; therefore, I think we should clarify

8 with Ms. Manas.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

11 Q. Would you please look at the two photos in front of you, and first

12 on the top photo, can you tell us the year and number?

13 A. 7528.

14 Q. And did I understand you correctly, when you made this photo, you

15 were standing on the heating?

16 A. Yes. I stood on a heater because this is the only way I could see

17 something that was -- the bridge itself.

18 Q. Okay. And can we have a look on the photo below. That would be

19 then the photo - which number is it? I can't see - 7529. Which of the

20 windows would it be, the windows that we can see overlooking, overlooking

21 the administration building?

22 A. It was the last floor, so it will be the third floor of the right

23 wing.

24 Q. And as it is not actually the three -- there are three -- is it

25 correct that there are three windows overlooking the administration

1 building in clear view?

2 A. Here from the photo, yes, there's three windows.

3 Q. And they are not actually in the middle -- they're not at the end,

4 they are not at the end of the building?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So where would you have been?

7 A. I would have been there.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing behind the trees.

9 A. 'Cause that's where you would find Room 23.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Are you able to tell us from that photograph which

11 room those three windows belonged to? Don't guess. I mean, if you can

12 really tell us.

13 A. No. Your Honour, I didn't go through all the rooms. I only went

14 to Room 23 to see if I could see the bridge from that window 'cause I

15 didn't see the bridge from the window itself, and I found a position where

16 I could observe the bridge. It was on a heater.

17 JUDGE HUNT: But it wasn't from any of those three windows that

18 you can see on that photograph?

19 A. No. No, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE HUNT: That makes sense of it, then. Thank you.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I think that clarifies it, really. Yes,

22 thank you.

23 Q. I have one more point. Mr. Bakrac asked you about what

24 Mr. Sekulovic told you about the guards and to which ministry -- by which

25 ministries they were supervised, and I would like to read something that

1 you put in your report, that is the Exhibit 41, the Prosecution Exhibit

2 41, and on page 5 it says: "The guards employed by the Ministry of

3 Justice worked on both parts of the prison. The question how the guards

4 regarding the military section would be supervised and by whom he did not

5 answer. He only mentioned that while Krnojelac was in charge, he had to

6 coordinate with a certain deputy, Marko Arsovic."

7 Is that what you recall about the conversation, or is it even in

8 your notes?

9 A. Yes. If you're reading that from my notes, that is correct.

10 Q. Could you, as you have your notes with you, could you please

11 double-check the name Marko Arsovic?

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Because, Your Honour, I just checked the list

13 of employees, that is P3, and there is no Marko Arsovic on it.

14 Q. So I wonder, Ms. Manas, could you check your notebook, your

15 investigator's notebook, if you can find that name in there, or if it is a

16 mistake, maybe.

17 A. I don't know. It's a name that I got at that time. No, it's not

18 in my notebook, so it could be a mistake.

19 Q. Did you ever hear the name "Marko Kovac"? Does that ring a bell?

20 A. Kovac would seem more likely, yes.

21 Q. Why?

22 A. Because I heard of that one taking witness testimonies.

23 Q. What did you hear about Marko Kovac?

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection. This name

25 reminds me more of something, I don't know what. The first name is the

1 same, and these are two completely different surnames. I really don't

2 understand the purpose of the question. Arsovic and Kovac, I don't know

3 what does it remind the witness of.

4 JUDGE HUNT: I think, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you are trespassing not

5 only upon leading questions, but you are going well beyond anything that

6 arises in cross-examination.

7 If you want leave to investigate in-chief with this witness about

8 this name, by all means. I'm not sure the way you're going about it would

9 be permissible, but you may certainly try to clean up if there is an error

10 made.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I thought that the witness would have her

12 notebook and we could check.

13 JUDGE HUNT: It does not have a name, unfortunately, so I think

14 that line of inquiry is probably dead.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

16 JUDGE HUNT: But I wouldn't stop you if you do it as part of your

17 evidence-in-chief, and then it could be cross-examined upon, if necessary.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Do you want to do that?

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The problem is that this name -- I've never

21 heard this name before, not from the witness.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, but the witness --

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness has mentioned it, but I think it

24 may be a mistake. But we cannot clarify it, that's now clear.

25 JUDGE HUNT: We can only accept that she was told that name by

1 Mr. Sekulovic.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sekulovic.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Sekulovic. So that's what she says. If you

4 want to prove something different, I think you have to go to the fact

5 rather than what this witness was told, 'cause she may not have been told

6 the truth, or she may have been misled about something.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE HUNT: It doesn't really prove very much. That's what we're

9 trying to say.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We're not pursuing this.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Right.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And I'm actually through with my questions.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, thank you. Yes.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may. I believe

15 I'm entitled, just for the record, to clarify this matter. When the

16 witness said that she could see the bridge only when she climbed the

17 heater, she said it was the only place from which she could see the

18 bridge.

19 Now, what does "see the bridge" mean? It's very vague. What part

20 of the bridge? Which part of the bridge, or the whole bridge, or is it

21 the part of the bridge that we showed, that is, this metal structure, this

22 metal arch. It's simply vague. When she says "bridge," we simply do not

23 understand. What does she mean; the whole bridge, or a part of the

24 bridge, and which part of the bridge?

25 JUDGE HUNT: What do you say about there being some uncertainty is

1 correct. The question which was asked was an appropriate one in

2 re-examination. The Prosecution hasn't sought to work it out; therefore,

3 it's the Prosecution that must suffer as a result of it. My understanding

4 is, and it seemed to be very clear from the photographs, is that --

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 JUDGE HUNT: -- the bridge could be seen from three rooms. That

7 photograph that shows just the top of the bridge that you were asking her

8 about, she says was taken further along from behind the trees. And when

9 she went along there, the only way she could see the bridge was by

10 climbing up on the heater. Now, that seems to be very clear. Nothing

11 that she has said suggests that you could not see the bridge from those

12 three rooms that you can see in the photograph. That's where the evidence

13 lies, so far as I'm concerned, and the Prosecution hasn't sought to take

14 it any further, which means you can take whatever advantage you can of

15 that, but I don't see that you can now cross-examine further.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you're happy to leave it there,

18 are you?

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

20 JUDGE HUNT: It may well be clear enough, but you're happy to

21 leave it there?

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. Thank you.

24 Thank you very much indeed. You may leave now, and thank you for

25 giving evidence.

1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE HUNT: Who is the next witness?

4 MS. KUO: Your Honour, the next witness is identified as 119, but

5 there are no protective measures in place.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

7 MS. KUO: While the witness is being brought in, could I ask the

8 audiovisual director to turn the light off on the ELMO so there's no

9 glare. Thank you.

10 JUDGE HUNT: I notice that, according to the summary, he's going

11 to talk about the beginning of the conflict. I think we've indicated

12 we've really had enough about that, unless there's something really --

13 something new that this witness can tell us.

14 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. This witness lived in the village

15 Brod and he was part of an organised Territorial Defence. We would need

16 to go into not a whole lot of detail but some explanation of it, in case

17 the Defence wants to argue that he's a combatant. So there may be some

18 issue there.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then. Yes. Thank you for that.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE HUNT: Neither of those microphones are turned on.

22 Would you please make the solemn declaration, sir.

23 WITNESS: AHMET HADZIMUSIC

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Examined by Ms. Kuo:

5 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

6 A. Good afternoon.

7 Q. Could you please tell us your name.

8 A. Ahmet Hadzimusic.

9 Q. What year were you born?

10 A. I was born on 11th of October, 1945.

11 Q. Where were you born?

12 A. I was born in Foca.

13 Q. What is your ethnicity?

14 A. My ethnicity is Muslim.

15 Q. In 1992, could you tell us what you did for a living?

16 A. I worked in Maglic as a telephone operator.

17 Q. How long had you been doing that?

18 A. I worked for 27 years in that position.

19 Q. Sir, I notice that when you came into the courtroom today you were

20 using crutches. Do you have a physical disability?

21 A. Yes. I was born in 1945, and in 1947 I contracted polio, and I've

22 been using crutches ever since 1949.

23 Q. Did you do your compulsory military service?

24 A. No, I did not do my compulsory military service. I went to the

25 military office and I was issued a certificate certifying that I was

1 unable to do military service.

2 Q. That was because of your physical condition; is that right?

3 A. Yes, due to my leg.

4 Q. In April of 1992, where did you live?

5 A. I lived three and a half kilometres away, along the Drina River,

6 in a place called Brod, at the foot of selo Dzidzevo.

7 Q. When you say "three and a half kilometres away," you mean away

8 from what, or where?

9 A. From Foca, from the town of Foca.

10 Q. Who lived there with you?

11 A. I lived with my wife and three children.

12 Q. Could you tell us, sir, how big Brod is?

13 A. Brod is a town, and there was also a factory Maglic, and it was an

14 average-sized settlement. I don't know how to describe it. It was a

15 small settlement, village. And the enterprise, the factory, was huge.

16 Q. Was Brod an ethically-mixed town?

17 A. Yes, it was mixed.

18 Q. The part of the town that you lived in, was that mixed or was it

19 predominantly one ethnicity?

20 A. The neighbourhood where I lived, around the bridge over Drina, was

21 purely Muslim, and this village of Dzidzevo was mixed. It was

22 approximately half, half.

23 Q. Sir, when did the war in Foca start?

24 A. The war in Foca started on the 8th of April, 1992, although there

25 was some shooting prior to that as well.

1 Q. Did the start of the war in Foca have an effect on those of you

2 living in Brod?

3 A. Not a great effect; a slight one.

4 Q. Did people living in Brod fear that the war might come to your

5 town?

6 A. They did. Yes, they did, of course.

7 Q. Did the residents do anything about it, organise any sort of

8 defence?

9 A. Well, there was, but an insignificant defence, because there were

10 no weapons, so they couldn't really organise a defence, a serious one.

11 Q. Did all the residents of Brod fear an attack on the town or was it

12 a specific ethnic group?

13 A. I don't know, but I think that Serbs did not have fear, whereas we

14 Muslims, we certainly did, because JNA helped the Serbs.

15 Q. Did the Muslims in Brod organise a Territorial Defence?

16 A. They did in a small degree, because there were only a few of us.

17 Q. How many people were participants in the Territorial Defence in

18 Brod?

19 A. In my village where I live, about 40 people, around 40.

20 Q. Did you also participate?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. Did the participants of the Territorial Defence have weapons?

23 A. We did, but very few.

24 Q. What kind of weapons did you have?

25 A. We had two machine-guns and a bit of -- several Thompsons; and

1 those who were in the reserve police, they also had Kalashnikovs. There

2 were two or three members of the reserve police force.

3 Q. Did you have weapons, you personally?

4 A. I did, but not for a long time. I did not have it for a long

5 time.

6 Q. What was your role in the Territorial Defence?

7 A. I was a sort of courier.

8 Q. Did the Serbs living in Brod also arm themselves; could you see?

9 A. Well, I saw it if they were shooting, which indicated that they

10 had a lot of weapons and a lot of ammunition.

11 Q. When the war in Foca started, did you stay in your home or did you

12 move someplace?

13 A. I stayed at home until April 20th -- actually, until April 18th.

14 Q. What happened on April 18th?

15 A. On the 18th, they -- the buses from Montenegro started coming in.

16 There was a lot of shooting going on, so I was afraid because of my wife

17 and children, so I went up to the village of Dzidzevo and stayed with my

18 neighbours.

19 Q. When did the attack on your village occur?

20 A. On April 20th, 1992.

21 Q. Now, just prior to that attack, were there demands made for the

22 people of your village to surrender?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know what the demands were?

25 A. They asked us to surrender, to surrender our weapons, and to obey

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1 their authorities.

2 Q. When you say "their authorities," whom do you mean?

3 A. Serbs.

4 Q. Do you know which body was making this demand that you surrender

5 your weapons and obey the authorities?

6 A. Across from the Drina River in Brod, there was a teacher called

7 Krunic, Drago; Rangelov, Stamen; two brothers with the last name of

8 Pijevic. I think that there was a Crisis Staff there.

9 Q. And was it the Crisis Staff that made this demand for surrender?

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. Did your village surrender under the demand?

12 A. No, it didn't. We did not respond.

13 Q. On the 20th of April, 1992, when did the attack occur?

14 A. The attack occurred around 9.00 or 10.00, something like that.

15 Q. Was that in the morning or the evening?

16 A. In the morning. Yes, in the morning.

17 Q. Just before the attack, where were you?

18 A. I was staying at my friend's house in Dzidzevo.

19 Q. Did you go outside?

20 A. Sometime around 8.00, I went out and I started walking down

21 towards my house, towards my brother's house.

22 Q. Why were you walking there?

23 A. I went to inform him of the situation, because he was the chief

24 one in the defence issues.

25 Q. Did you see -- what were you going to warn him about? Did you see

1 or hear anything?

2 A. I did not observe anything at the time. I did not hear anything

3 at the time. Just for the sake of informing him.

4 Q. On your way to your brother's house, did you see anything?

5 A. I did. I did see something. I did see soldiers, Chetniks, who

6 surrounded these villages.

7 Q. Were you able to see them with your -- just with your eyes or did

8 you use anything?

9 A. I used binoculars, but they were at such a close distance that I

10 could see them plainly with my eyes.

11 Q. What were the soldiers doing when you saw them?

12 A. They were marching soldier to soldier, shoulder to shoulder.

13 Q. What did you do when you saw them?

14 A. I turned back and started walking back to where my wife and

15 children were.

16 Q. Did you have a weapon with you at that time?

17 A. I had a revolver and I hid it.

18 Q. Where did you hide it?

19 A. I hid it in the forest, along the road, below a road.

20 Q. Why did you do that?

21 A. I did it because I saw that it was all over, and I was hoping that

22 the fact that I had crutches would save me.

23 Q. When you say, "it was all over," what do you mean?

24 A. Well, I saw a lot of troops.

25 Q. And what was over?

1 A. We were surrounded, and I could tell that the village would fall.

2 Q. What did you do after you hid your weapon?

3 A. I had a 5-litre jug, so I started walking towards my neighbour,

4 and I was going to say that I went to fetch some milk.

5 Q. Did anything happen to you on the way?

6 A. No, nothing particular. Just Pero Elez, whom I knew from before,

7 he stopped me and threatened me. He asked me where my brother was.

8 Q. Was Pero Elez in uniform or civilian clothes when he stopped you?

9 A. In uniform.

10 Q. Was he alone or with other people?

11 A. He was not alone. There were a number of people there.

12 Q. What kind of people?

13 A. I don't know those people. Perhaps I was simply very much afraid,

14 but there were a lot of people there, a lot of combatants, a lot of

15 Chetniks there.

16 Q. Were they dressed in uniform also?

17 A. In -- there were people in, in JNA uniforms; there were people in

18 blue uniforms, which I guess were some kind of work uniforms; there were

19 also people in camouflage uniforms. Pero Elez was in one, and he had a

20 kind of a white scarf. I remember that distinctly.

21 Q. Were Pero Elez and these other people armed when he stopped you?

22 A. They were.

23 Q. What did Pero Elez ask you?

24 A. He asked me where my brother was, and he told me to go and look

25 for him so that he could surrender.

1 Q. Would you say that Pero Elez and all these other people with him,

2 were they part of the attack, the attacking soldiers that you saw?

3 A. Yes. There was the composition of those soldiers or those troops.

4 Q. What did you do or say in response to Pero Elez?

5 A. I told them that I could not go and look for my brother, and that

6 I also did not know where he was.

7 Q. What happened next?

8 A. Then as the soldiers were proceeding, they were putting all the

9 men together in one spot where there used to be a barn belonging to the

10 cooperative.

11 Q. When you say "all the men," what men? You don't need to give us

12 names, but what men are you referring to?

13 A. Muslim; my people.

14 Q. Were you also taken to that barn?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What happened there?

17 A. From there, they took us to a field where they separated us

18 because they had a list from which they were reading out and separating

19 people.

20 Q. Whom did they separate out? And again, you don't need to give us

21 their names, but how many and what was special about these people?

22 A. Well, they separated out about 15 or 20 people, and about the same

23 number of us remained. We were ordered to sit down on the grass, and then

24 we were ordered to lie on our stomachs and to graze grass, so that after

25 that they again told us to sit up and to open our mouths and to show them

1 whether we had any grass in our mouths, and if we had some, then we had to

2 swallow it.

3 Q. Did all the Muslim men have to do this?

4 A. They did.

5 Q. Did the soldiers say anything to you when you were ordered to do

6 this? Were they making comments?

7 A. No, not a lot, but they did laugh.

8 Q. Of the group of men that was separated out, were you part of that

9 group?

10 A. I remained with the group that was sitting.

11 Q. What happened to the men who were separated out 'cause their name

12 was on a list?

13 A. Ten or eleven of them were killed, and the remaining five or six

14 were brought to KP Dom in the evening hours.

15 Q. How do you know that the men were killed?

16 A. Well, exhumation took place recently, and this is simply well

17 known. I don't know how else to explain this.

18 Q. Did anyone tell you of the group that showed up at KP Dom later,

19 that the other men were killed?

20 A. Yes, I was told this by my neighbour.

21 Q. What happened to you after that group was taken -- was separated

22 out from you?

23 A. About 35 of us, I think there were that many of us, they made us

24 walk down to the Drina bridge through the village. Then we crossed the

25 bridge, and on the other side, on the opposite side next to Brod, it said

1 in large letters, "This is Serbia." And then I walked another 50 or 80

2 metres, and there was a bus waiting for us.

3 Q. You said "it" said, "This is Serbia." What was this written on?

4 A. On the asphalt. On the lane, on the asphalt on the bridge, on the

5 road of the bridge.

6 Q. Did anyone -- did any of the soldiers make any sort of

7 announcement when you were being taken over?

8 A. No, they said nothing. They merely fired, because there was a

9 fountain to the right -- to the left, and to the right there were some

10 shops, and there were very many troops there, and they simply fired rounds

11 of fire.

12 Q. Did Pero Elez say anything at that point?

13 A. Pero Elez, as we waited by the bus, he rode in a police car and

14 used a PA device above the car: "We've done our bit. The village of

15 Dzidzevo is in our hands."

16 Q. You said there was a bus waiting for you. Did you have to get on

17 the bus?

18 A. Yes. One by one, we got onto the bus. And there was a man with a

19 piece of paper and a pencil. We would give him our name, and I said,

20 "Ahmet Hadzimusic," and he would take it down, and after that, we were

21 shown to our seats. And each one of us had to go through that.

22 Q. Were people other than those from your village put on the bus?

23 A. No, only our villagers.

24 Q. Where were you taken?

25 A. We were taken towards Foca, to the penitentiary, to the KP Dom.

1 Q. And when were you taken there?

2 A. Well, now, I think it could have been 2 p.m. or perhaps 3.00 in

3 the afternoon so that we arrived there around 4. I'm not quite sure. But

4 nobody had a watch, so I wouldn't know the exact time, but I know that it

5 was at about that time in the afternoon.

6 Q. Where were you taken inside the KP Dom?

7 A. They brought us to the KP Dom, and we then entered the

8 administrative building through the main entrance, and in this hall there

9 is a reception room left of the entrance. That is where we waited.

10 Q. Were you told why you were brought to KP Dom?

11 A. No. Nobody told us anything and nor did we comment. We only had

12 to give our particulars at this reception desk again.

13 Q. Did anybody make any comments about the fact that you walked with

14 crutches?

15 A. Well, one of us, yes, one of us was a minor, a 16-year-old boy,

16 and they -- somebody, one of them, said that that young man and I should

17 go back home.

18 Q. One of them, who?

19 A. I don't know his name, but the Chetnik. A Chetnik or a Serb.

20 Q. Were you allowed to go home?

21 A. No. Afterwards, they asked me if I was Roko's brother, and I said

22 yes, and the man said, "Oh, well, then, you have to stay."

23 Q. Were you interrogated that same day?

24 A. No. Well, yes, in the evening, around 7.00.

25 Q. Where were you interrogated?

1 A. We went through that corridor and entered the prison yard, and

2 then we went up the stairs to Room 11. And in the anteroom where there is

3 the lavatory, that is where they interrogated us.

4 Q. Who interrogated you?

5 A. Well, again, those were men wearing JNA uniforms. There was a

6 gentleman, well clean-shaved and all that, and he interrogated, and there

7 were also others. And some were in civilian and some were in jackets,

8 some were in uniforms, some were in gloves with the fingers cut off.

9 Q. Were you interrogated alone or in a group of other men?

10 A. No, I was interrogated. There was my neighbour to my left.

11 Q. Could you tell us your neighbour's name?

12 A. Skender, Bajro.

13 Q. Tell us please how the interrogation -- what it was like.

14 A. Well, I was not asked anything. It was my neighbour who asked --

15 they asked him if he had -- they asked him about whether he was a member

16 of the army, whether he had -- did he do his service, about me. And then

17 they asked me if I knew what was an M-48, and I said I did not know what

18 kind of a weapon it was. And then a man, a gentleman, and he had those

19 huge eyes, and he had a knife, and he hit me on the head and said, "Don't

20 you know Tandzara?" I said "I don't."

21 Q. When you said "Tandzara," what do you mean?

22 A. Well, that Chetnik told me that that weapon was called M-48.

23 Q. Did anyone else hit you?

24 A. Yes. Two behind and -- yes, on the back, and then when they took

25 me to the area where the wash basins are, yes, that is where they took me,

1 and there they beat me more.

2 Q. How did they beat you? On what part of your body and using what

3 kind of instruments?

4 A. On the back. They mostly hit me on the back, using either some

5 batons or perhaps a hose of sorts, I don't know, because I was trying to

6 make myself, to make myself smaller. I wasn't really looking what they

7 were beating me with.

8 Q. What kind of injuries did you sustain?

9 A. Well, I suffering from hernia because of these beatings, and my

10 hands, too. I have an arrhythmia since, cardiac arrhythmia, sugar content

11 in my blood is higher, my fingers get numb, and it all comes from that.

12 Q. Were you beaten on your hands?

13 A. Well, I must have tried to protect my head.

14 Q. With your hands?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Was your neighbour also beaten at that time?

17 A. No. Him, they beat later.

18 Q. Where were you taken after this?

19 A. After that, they took us to isolation cells, all of us, all of

20 us. They took all of us to isolation cells.

21 Q. How many people were in the isolation cell with you?

22 A. Fifteen there were in my isolation cell.

23 Q. How long were you kept in that cell?

24 A. Three or maybe four days.

25 Q. With 15 of you in one of these cells, were you able to lie down to

1 sleep?

2 A. No, we couldn't.

3 Q. How did you sleep, then?

4 A. Sitting.

5 Q. While you were in the solitary cells, were you ever beaten?

6 A. I was not, but at night they came with torches and would search

7 around our group. And my neighbour Ahmet Djuric I suppose could not look

8 at that light, so the Chetnik hit him, and he was all blue in the face, as

9 you could see in the morning.

10 Q. When you say "hit him," was he actually beaten, or how?

11 A. He kicked him in the head.

12 Q. When you said you were able to see actually that his face was blue

13 from that injury?

14 A. Yes, yes. Yes, yes, in the morning. In the morning when the day

15 broke, then we could see -- then we could see a huge blister.

16 Q. I'm sorry if I perhaps didn't understand it. What was the reason

17 that he was kicked or hit?

18 A. Well, he kicked him because they would come at night and some of

19 us they took out and beat; some they did not. But they would come with

20 this big torches, and they would aim it directly into our eyes, and they

21 would order us to look at that torch. And if somebody could not look at

22 it, could not keep his eyes open or simply averted his eyes, then he would

23 be hit.

24 Q. Who came at night? Again, you don't need to give us names, but

25 what kind of people were they; soldiers, or guards, or civilians?

1 A. Well, I wouldn't be able to say exactly, but they must have

2 been -- they can't have been civilians. They must have been soldiers.

3 Q. Why do you say --

4 A. Very likely.

5 Q. Why do you say it was very likely they were soldiers?

6 A. Because later on we were taken over by those who run the KP Dom

7 before, those are -- the staff that worked there before the war, and they

8 took us out of the isolation cells into rooms.

9 MS. KUO: The incident regarding Ahmet Djuric is listed in

10 [Realtime transcript read in error "^"] Schedule A, number 7.

11 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure, though, that I understand his

12 explanation as to why he thought they were not civilians. Perhaps you

13 don't want to pursue it, but I don't understand it myself.

14 MS. KUO:

15 Q. Were you able to see what these people were wearing when they came

16 into the solitary cell?

17 A. Well, they had uniforms and they had army trousers. I could see

18 that. We were never allowed to lift our heads. They always ordered us to

19 look down, so you tried to look on the sly. And you can see the army

20 trousers. But they would wear some gloves with their fingers cut off and

21 some jackets or -- what do you know, but we were not allowed to look.

22 Q. When you say the civilian --

23 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, excuse me, but -- I'm

25 sorry to interrupt. I shall like to -- but in the transcript we do not

1 have -- it says that this incident refers to -- and we do not see to

2 what. I understood my learned friend, C27, but I see no link, so perhaps

3 it would be good if we could clarify it.

4 JUDGE HUNT: [Previous translation continues] ... gave us the

5 incident. The court reporters obviously missed it. They've just got the

6 usual query, like an upside-down -- like a circumflex. What was it? 27?

7 MS. KUO: A7.

8 JUDGE HUNT: A7. Right. Thank you.

9 Q. When you say the civilian authorities took over the prison and let

10 you out, how do you know that?

11 A. I don't understand.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] "Civilian authorities," I don't

15 remember the witness saying that.

16 JUDGE HUNT: He did -- he said that they were not civilians, the

17 people who had been there before. Let me just see if I can find it in the

18 transcript. I don't see any reference to him saying that of civilians.

19 He said they were not civilians, the ones who had been there before. And

20 then he said the ones who came to collect them were the ones who had

21 worked in the prison before. That's what he may be referring to as

22 civilians, but he didn't use the word.

23 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour, and I think I inserted the word on the

24 assumption that he meant one or the other.

25 Q. I'd like to ask you to explain that, sir. The people who let you

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1 out of the solitary cell, who were they?

2 A. Those people were those who had worked for the penitentiary before

3 the aggression.

4 Q. Do you know if they were working there at the time you were

5 brought in on the 20th of April?

6 A. Oh, no, I wouldn't know that. I wouldn't know that and couldn't,

7 because I could not see, as those people forced us to look at the ground;

8 they would not let us look.

9 Q. Do you know why you were let out of the solitary cells?

10 A. I don't, but they took us into rooms, from solitary cells into

11 rooms, that is, rooms of the prison.

12 Q. Did you have contact again with the soldiers or the -- with

13 soldiers while you were at KP Dom?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Before we move on to the rooms you were taken to: While you were

16 in the solitary cells, you mentioned that, in addition to Mr. Djuric, that

17 other people were beaten. Could you tell us about that?

18 A. I can. When we came into the room - and I've heard that there was

19 quite a lot of beatings had taken place there - my former neighbours,

20 Kovacevic, Fikret Kovacevic, and Kemo Kajgana were not beaten, but

21 Kovacevic was there, and they asked him, "What happens when you break

22 three eggs?" And he said that you get cimbur. And then they cursed at

23 him and used foul language, and they asked him again and then they beat

24 him again. Then he said, "The sunny side up." And then they beat him

25 once again, and then eventually he said that you got scrambled eggs.

1 THE INTERPRETER: Which the word -- which his name "Kajgana"

2 means.

3 A. And after that, he was taken out of the solitary confinement, and

4 then they said, "We did not call you. It was your neighbour who called

5 you to come here. So here's a baton for you, and you go and beat him,

6 because he called you." And then they thought that he wasn't beating him

7 properly and then they demonstrated it on him.

8 MS. KUO: This is very confusing.

9 JUDGE HUNT: The interpreter was being very helpful to us there,

10 but I think you had better sort that one out with the witness.

11 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE HUNT: What she was saying was giving us the interpretation

13 of the man's name, and that's probably right, but I think we better get it

14 straight on the evidence. Thank you.

15 MS. KUO: Yes.

16 Q. Let's just start with who was taken out of the solitary cell and

17 beaten first.

18 A. First they took out Kovacevic and beat him, and he was the one

19 they asked those questions of.

20 Q. Did you actually see this or hear it, the beating?

21 A. I heard it. I could only hear it. I could not see it.

22 Q. And they were asking -- the people who were beating him were

23 asking him questions about different ways of preparing eggs; is that

24 right?

25 A. Yes. Yes, correct.

1 Q. And the last answer that he gave --

2 JUDGE HUNT: Well, we still need -- I'm sorry to interrupt, but we

3 still need to know what the significance of "cimbur" is.

4 MS. KUO:

5 Q. Could you answer that?

6 A. I can. I can. "Cimbur" is our word for -- is our Muslim word for

7 scrambled eggs, for scrambled eggs or an omelette, because that's that.

8 Q. And the second word he gave, maybe you can give us the word and

9 then tell us what it means by describing it.

10 A. Well, this second one was an egg made sunny side up. That is, you

11 don't scramble them; you just put them in the pan and you can see both the

12 yolk and the white.

13 Q. And finally, the third word that he gave.

14 A. The third word, when he said what happens when you break three

15 eggs, and then he eventually said, "Kajgana."

16 Q. And Kajgana is -- how can you describe that?

17 A. Well, that is the last name of my neighbour's, Kemo Kajgana.

18 THE INTERPRETER: "Kajgana" means scrambled eggs.

19 MS. KUO: Thank you.

20 Q. And what happened then to Mr. Kajgana?

21 A. And then Kajgana came and the selfsame gave the baton. He said,

22 "We did not call you out, but he called you out. And since he called you

23 out, let him beat you."

24 Q. Who was asked to beat whom?

25 A. When Kovacevic said, "Kajgana," and when he came, then those

1 guards, or I don't know what they were, gave the baton to this one, to

2 Kovacevic. No, no, no. Excuse me. They gave the baton to Kajgana and

3 said, "You beat Kovacevic, because he's called you out."

4 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Kajgana did use the baton to beat

5 Mr. Kovacevic?

6 A. Yes, but it was very gentle.

7 Q. And then did the people who were doing this, the ones you are not

8 able to identify, what did they do or say?

9 A. To Kemo or what? I don't understand.

10 Q. To either Mr. Kajgana or Mr. Kovacevic.

11 A. Well, since Kajgana did not really beat him properly, then they

12 took the baton from him and demonstrated how one should beat, and so they

13 beat him.

14 Q. They beat Mr. Kajgana or Mr. Kovacevic?

15 A. Kajgana. They beat Kajgana to show him how he should beat, how he

16 should deal those blows, and then they gave this baton to Kovacevic so

17 that he would beat.

18 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Kovacevic then used the baton to beat

19 Mr. Kajgana?

20 A. Correct. Yes, he had to.

21 MS. KUO: Your Honours, the beating of Mr. Kovacevic is listed in

22 Schedule A at number 12, and of Mr. Kajgana at A, number 10.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

24 MS. KUO:

25 Q. Where were you when this was happening?

1 A. I was in the middle solitary cell.

2 Q. Were you able to hear this happening?

3 A. Yes, one is able to because it's not far away; it is the adjacent

4 room.

5 Q. Now, when you were taken out of solitary, the solitary cell, what

6 room were you taken to?

7 A. I was taken to Room 13, the old part of the penitentiary.

8 Q. What other -- how long did you stay in Room 13?

9 A. In Room 13, until early September 1992.

10 Q. And what other rooms were you taken to during your time at KP Dom?

11 A. From 13 I moved to 21. And do you want me to list all of them?

12 Q. Yes, please.

13 A. From 21 I was transferred to Room 16; from 16 to 18; and from the

14 18, I went back to the old wing, to Room 14; and finally, I moved to Room

15 13; and from Room 13, I was transferred, on the 23rd of October, 1993, to

16 the camp at Kula in Sarajevo.

17 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I see that it's 1.00. Perhaps we can take

18 our break now.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Have you a different watch to mine?

20 MS. KUO: It's very hard to see from this angle. It looks

21 approximately 1.00.

22 JUDGE HUNT: We'll let you off. Two-thirty, then, to resume.

23 Thank you.

24 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.58 p.m.

25

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Kuo.

3 MS. KUO: Good afternoon.

4 Q. While you were at KP Dom, were you ever interrogated again?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When was that?

7 A. On the 8th of May, 1992.

8 Q. Who interrogated you then?

9 A. I was interrogated by Zoran Vladicic, Tepavcevic, and the third

10 one was named Vojo -- I have it written down. Would that be all right for

11 me to check my notes?

12 Q. Yes.

13 JUDGE HUNT: I suppose you'd better confirm where the notes come

14 from.

15 MS. KUO: Yes, we have --

16 Q. Are these notes that you yourself wrote?

17 A. Personally, myself.

18 Q. When did you write them?

19 A. I wrote them when I received an invitation to come here and as I

20 was preparing for my testimony.

21 MS. KUO: We have copies of these notes of the witness if the

22 Court is interested. The Defence has a copy. I don't anticipate we'll be

23 entering into evidence, but ...

24 JUDGE HUNT: It's the same evidence, is it?

25 MS. KUO: The same?

1 JUDGE HUNT: The one he wants to refer to.

2 MS. KUO: Yes.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Do you have any objection to him referring to it,

4 Mr. Bakrac?

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE HUNT: You may proceed, sir.

7 MS. KUO: Would it be the safer course of conduct, Your Honour, if

8 we marked it for identification purposes?

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, it will be marked for identification. It will

10 be marked for identification "5."

11 A. Yes. I already mentioned the other two persons, and the third one

12 was Vojo Starovic.

13 MS. KUO: During -- to the usher, it's not necessary to show the

14 witness anything. He has his notes with him.

15 Q. During this interrogation, were you mistreated?

16 A. No. They did not mistreat me, but all three interrogated me.

17 Q. Did they identify themselves as being part of the civil or

18 military authorities?

19 A. No, they did not identify themselves.

20 Q. Were they dressed in civilian clothes or in military clothes?

21 A. Civilian.

22 Q. Other than the beatings that you described in or outside the

23 solitary cells, were other detainees beaten?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I'd like for you to describe those for us, going in order of how

1 they occurred. So to the best that you can remember, could you tell us

2 who was beaten and when?

3 A. On June 28th, which is Vidovdan, St. Vitus's Day, and prior to

4 that day, Nurko Nisic who was a member of MUP of Foca, and he was beaten,

5 and then he was taken back to the room. He was well beaten up. And on

6 Vidovdan, on St. Vitus's Day, Nurko disappeared. He never again returned

7 to the room.

8 Q. You have identified Vidovdan as being the 28th of June. How many

9 days before that was Nurko Nisic taken out and beaten?

10 A. Five or seven days prior to that.

11 Q. Do you know who beat him?

12 A. No, I didn't know at the time, but later on when I was freed, I

13 found out that he was beaten by Zelenovic from Foca.

14 Q. How did you find that out?

15 A. I found that out from my distant relative who lived in this

16 neighbourhood called Musala. He apparently boasted that he collected his

17 debt from Nurko for everything that he owed him before that, but he did

18 not kill him. He didn't want to kill him.

19 Q. Who supposedly collected the debt?

20 THE INTERPRETER: I didn't understand.

21 MS. KUO:

22 Q. You said "he" was boasting. Who was boasting this?

23 A. Zelenovic was boasting that, that in the old times when Nurko

24 worked in the police, Nurko used to mistreat Zelenovic, and then later on

25 when Zelenovic was beating Nurko, he apparently collected for this old

1 debt. But he did not kill him; he let him live.

2 Q. While you were still in the KP Dom, did you -- well, when the

3 beating was happening, did you actually hear it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What did you hear?

6 A. I heard my neighbour and my close friend and relative, Kemo Tulek,

7 because he was born in my neighbourhood and he was a member -- prior to

8 the war, he was an employee of KP Dom, he worked in security, and I heard

9 from him. I understood everything that he said.

10 Q. I'm sorry, you may have misunderstood my question. My question

11 was about Nurko Nisic when he was being beaten. Can you tell us what he

12 heard of that, before we move on to Mr. Tulek.

13 A. Oh, yes, yes. Not at the time.

14 Q. Did you see Mr. Nisic after he was beaten?

15 A. I did see him when he came back from those main doors which

16 lead -- which are in fact an entrance to the camp. He was wet and bloody

17 and he was holding his stomach with one of his hands and he came back to

18 room number 12.

19 Q. Were you in room number 12 at that time?

20 A. No. I was in Room 13.

21 Q. How were you able to see him, then?

22 A. I saw him through the window, because we had the same entrance for

23 the rooms 12 and 13.

24 Q. Was it daylight or nighttime?

25 A. Daylight. It was daytime, in the afternoon hours.

1 Q. Do you know what happened to Nurko Nisic on Vidovdan, the 28th of

2 June?

3 A. He was taken away in the evening hours. They used to take people

4 away between 5.00 and 10.00 in the evening.

5 Q. When you say "used to," what was the time -- the period of time, I

6 mean the dates? Between what date and what date are you referring to?

7 A. Four or five days.

8 Q. Could you give us the date? Four or five days when?

9 A. Well, that was St. Vitus's Day, June 28th, and then a few days

10 before that we were imprisoned, so we didn't really know what date it was

11 and we lived in fear.

12 Q. Was it a few days before or a few days after St. Vitus's Day?

13 A. I think it was both before St. Vitus's Day, a day before St.

14 Vitus's Day, and also afterwards.

15 Q. Let's talk about St. Vitus's Day. Could you hear anything

16 happening outside KP Dom on that day?

17 A. I didn't hear anything particular, but there was a lot of shooting

18 going on.

19 Q. Do you know why there was shooting?

20 A. We found out later on that it was because it was St. Vitus's Day.

21 Q. Was it a kind of celebration?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Just to clarify, is St. Vitus's Day a Serb holiday, a Muslim

24 holiday, or ...

25 A. A Serbian holiday.

1 Q. What happened inside KP Dom on St. Vitus's Day?

2 A. On St. Vitus's Day, people were taken away every evening for three

3 or four days between the hours of 5.00 and 10.00 in the evening, around

4 5.30 or so.

5 Q. Where were people taken?

6 A. They were taken to the administrative building. Behind the

7 reception area, there was a cell.

8 Q. Could you actually see people being taken there?

9 A. I could see them as they were being taken away, as they were

10 walking along the path within the compound. We were able to see

11 everything up until the main entrance.

12 Q. Were you able to identify the people who were taken there?

13 A. Yes, those that I knew.

14 Q. Approximately how many people were taken to the gate in this way

15 during those few days you've described?

16 A. About 50.

17 Q. Were they taken in groups or one by one?

18 A. One by one. Babo and his son were the only ones that were taken

19 away together.

20 Q. What is Babo's real name?

21 A. Serif.

22 Q. What is his last name?

23 A. I would have to look into my notes again, into my papers.

24 Q. This is again the document which has been identified --

25 A. I just remembered. Balic, Serif.

1 Q. Do you know what happened to the people who were taken to the

2 gate?

3 A. They never came back to the camp. I don't know what happened to

4 them.

5 Q. Did you hear the sounds of screaming, beating, or anything else

6 after these people were taken to the gate?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. What did you hear?

9 A. Well, specifically, as far as my neighbour and childhood friend is

10 concerned - I know his date of birth. His name is Kemal Tulek - I heard

11 everything surrounding him.

12 Q. What did you hear?

13 A. I heard when he was taken away and I heard as they started beating

14 him and when he pleaded with them, begging them in the name of everything

15 that was sacred to him. And as he was pleading with them, they were

16 cursing him, cursing his balija mother, his children.

17 Q. Did you recognise his voice?

18 A. Yes, definitely.

19 Q. Where did Kemal Tulek work before the war?

20 A. He worked in KP Dom. He was a policeman.

21 MS. KUO: Your Honour, Kemal Tulek is listed in Schedule C at

22 number 25.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

24 MS. KUO: And also, Serif Balic, who was mentioned, is in Schedule

25 B at number 3, and his son is listed at Schedule B, number 4.

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1 Q. Was anybody taken from your room?

2 A. From my room, they took away Hamid Ramovic.

3 Q. What happened to him?

4 A. He was taken after 10.00. He was not beaten there. He was

5 taken -- he was driven elsewhere. We heard the car immediately after he

6 left the room, and the car drove away. I think that he was taken away

7 because he was not beaten there.

8 Q. Did you ever see Hamid Ramovic again after that?

9 A. Never.

10 MS. KUO: Your Honours, Hamid Ramovic is listed at Schedule C,

11 number 20.

12 Q. Did any of the 50 people taken out to the gate in this way

13 return? Did you see any of them?

14 A. No, never. I inquired, but I never heard or saw any of them.

15 Q. Was a Salko Mandzo taken out to the gate as well?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What happened to him?

18 A. He was taken prior to these other people. He was also beaten, and

19 then he was returned back to the room. And then they took away Mandzo

20 Emir, a medical technician who worked in the Foca hospital. They in fact

21 made a mistake, because both of them have the same last name, Mandzo, and

22 they simply made an error when they took the first man out.

23 Q. How do you know that, that it was an error?

24 A. Salko Mandzo told us that he was beaten and that one of the

25 Chetniks said, "Don't beat him anymore because I will slash his throat."

1 And then he realised that this was not Emir whom he in fact wanted, and

2 then he was brought back.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, is there a pseudonym that is involved here?

4 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour. In fact, they're two different people.

5 JUDGE HUNT: I know that, but was one of them afforded a

6 pseudonym?

7 MS. KUO: No.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Good, thank you. I was only concerned about

9 redacting the transcript.

10 MS. KUO: Yes, that's fine. Just as a note of explanation,

11 there's a Fuad Mandzo who has been mentioned, and then Emir Mandzo, and

12 this witness has identified Emir Mandzo as being a medical technician.

13 And in fact, Emir Mandzo is listed in Schedule B at number 37.

14 Q. Could you give us the names of people you knew who were taken out

15 during this time and that you never saw again?

16 A. Yes, I can.

17 Q. Could you tell us, please.

18 A. Two men with the last name Veiz, and if you allow me, could I look

19 into my notes again?

20 Q. Yes.

21 MS. KUO: And this, for the record, is what's been identified as

22 ID number 5.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Now marked for identification 5. It is a subtle

24 difference. The documents in your folders are ID with numbers; these are

25 MFI, marked for identification 5.

1 MS. KUO: Very well, Your Honour.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the Defence be

3 given this paper that the witness is using so that we could compare it to

4 the materials that we have?

5 JUDGE HUNT: I was told that you have been given a copy of it when

6 we started discussing it earlier on this afternoon.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. We were given

8 copies, but we simply wanted to make sure that the copy is the same as the

9 original in the witness's possession.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, you want to check your copy with what he's got.

11 I suppose that's fair enough because we didn't have the actual document

12 out.

13 Yes, Ms. Kuo.

14 MS. KUO:

15 Q. Sir, you were able to look at your document now.

16 A. I could tell this, but in order to save time and in order to save

17 me effort, because I have been through a lot, I suffered a lot, and

18 sometimes I cannot recollect everything instantly.

19 Q. That's fine. You can tell us, then, the names of the two Veizes.

20 A. Yes. Two men with the name -- last name Veiz, Veiz, Zulfo was a

21 policeman with Foca SUP; and the other one was a worker, Selimovic Haso;

22 Nisic, Nurko; Kiselica, Esad; Dzano, Hasan.

23 Q. Please slow down because I need to tell the Judges something after

24 each name.

25 MS. KUO: For the record, Zulfo Veiz is on Schedule C, number 29.

1 Q. Sir, you didn't give us the first name of the other Mr. Veiz.

2 A. Munib.

3 MS. KUO: Munib Veiz is Schedule C, number 28. Nurko Nisic is

4 Schedule C, number 19, and --

5 A. Selimovic.

6 MS. KUO: Esad Kiselica is Schedule C, number 12.

7 JUDGE HUNT: What he was doing was correcting you, you see. He

8 said Selimovic, and you have recorded it as Nurko Nisic. At least, that's

9 what you are recorded as having said.

10 MS. KUO: Yes, I did say that, Your Honour, and --

11 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

12 MS. KUO: I did not get the name of Selimovic. He's not on

13 Schedule C, but he's on a different schedule, so we're going to look that

14 up right now. And --

15 JUDGE HUNT: The last one was Esad Dzano.

16 MS. KUO: Esad Dzano is also not on Schedule C but on a different

17 schedule.

18 A. Hasan.

19 MS. KUO:

20 Q. Okay. If you could just proceed, then. Who else was taken out

21 that day, or those days?

22 A. Konjo, Halid.

23 MS. KUO: On Schedule C, Your Honours, number 13 is listed as

24 Halim Konjo, and we think that that's the same name.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection.

1 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Prosecution --

3 Prosecutor said that she believed that that's the same person, but this is

4 for the witness to say, so whether it's the same person or two different

5 individuals. Prosecutor just stated before the witness that she believed

6 that was the same person, but it was up for the witness to say so.

7 JUDGE HUNT: You're quite right.

8 There has been both names used during the course of the trial in

9 relation to Konjo, Halim and Halid, so you'd better find out precisely

10 which one the witness means and accept it when he says it.

11 MS. KUO: Certainly, Your Honour.

12 Q. Was there also a Halim Konjo?

13 A. Halid, with a "D."

14 Q. So they're two different people, is that what you're saying?

15 A. This is just one person. His name is Konjo, Halid. He had a

16 brother, but his brother is not on the list.

17 Q. Was his brother Halim?

18 A. I can't remember.

19 MS. KUO: Your Honour, we've now found the names, the references

20 to Hasan Dzano. It's on Schedule B, number 18, and Hasan Selimovic is on

21 Schedule B, number 50.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

23 MS. KUO:

24 Q. Sir, you can proceed.

25 A. Emir Mandzo.

1 MS. KUO: That's already been identified to the Court.

2 A. Ramovic, Hamid.

3 MS. KUO: He has likewise being identified as Schedule C, number

4 20.

5 A. Tulek, Kemal.

6 Q. Is that -- is his name also Tulek, Kemal?

7 A. Yes, yes. That's correct.

8 MS. KUO: He is Schedule C, number 25.

9 A. Balic, Serif, and his son. I don't know the son's first name.

10 MS. KUO: Those two have already been identified to the Court.

11 A. Dzelilovic, Kemal.

12 MS. KUO: He is on Schedule C, number 7.

13 A. And some others that I was not familiar with.

14 Q. I'm looking at a copy of your same notes, and you have two other

15 names listed. Hodzic, Nail?

16 A. Yes, I apologise, yes. And also Dzendusic, Ramo.

17 MS. KUO: Hodzic, Nail is on Schedule C, number 10, and Dzendusic,

18 Ramo, is Schedule C, number 8.

19 Q. Were there other people whose names you wrote down a little bit

20 later who were also taken out?

21 A. There were. They also took away two brothers with the last name

22 Rikalo, and their relative.

23 Q. Do you know their first names?

24 A. I don't.

25 MS. KUO: Your Honour, there were three Rikalos listed on Schedule

1 C, numbers 22, 23, and 24.

2 Q. And was there anyone else?

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not know if this

4 is an error or what. The witness said two men called Rikalo. No, two

5 Rikalos and a relative.

6 A. It's three.

7 MS. KUO:

8 Q. Were there three people with the last name Rikalo?

9 JUDGE HUNT: He's already said that, and their relative, he said.

10 A. Correct, correct, yes.

11 JUDGE HUNT: He said that before the objection.

12 MS. KUO:

13 Q. And I'm sorry, who was the last person that you listed?

14 A. Kruno. He's Croat who was a TV repairman in Foca, and a nurse, a

15 Croat, too.

16 Q. You said Kruno. Was that his nickname or a real name?

17 A. Last name, I think.

18 MS. KUO: Your Honour, on Schedule C, number 17, there is a

19 Marinovic, Krunoslav who has been identified by other people as being a

20 Croat, and we believe that that is the same person.

21 A. It is, yes.

22 MS. KUO:

23 Q. Just to clarify, when you said Kruno and he was a TV repairman,

24 and then you said something about being a nurse, was that the same person

25 or was that a different person?

1 A. They are two different persons.

2 Q. What was the name of the other person, the one who was not Kruno?

3 A. I don't know, but he worked at the otorhinological ward because I

4 often went there to have my ears checked, so I knew him from there. But I

5 knew him by sight, I didn't know -- I not know his name.

6 Q. Was that person also a Croat?

7 A. Yes. And he was in Room 14.

8 MS. KUO: Your Honour, other witnesses have identified Schedule C,

9 number 11, Mate Ivancic, as being a Croat nurse, and we believe that that

10 is the right person.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know. I

14 apologise, but where is this examination going to take us? The witness

15 said he did not know the name, not that he could not remember. And now

16 when the Prosecutor said that she believed it was that person, then the

17 witness said, "Yes, that is the person."

18 JUDGE HUNT: That's a matter that goes to the weight of the

19 answer. I don't think there's anything really that you can do about it

20 now. The witness offered it, he wasn't asked the question, and we will

21 place such weight upon it as appears to us to be necessary later, but I'm

22 not going to exclude it.

23 Yes, Ms. Kuo.

24 MS. KUO:

25 Q. Witness, you mentioned that after Hamid Ramovic was taken to the

1 gate, you heard a car. Did you hear a car after anyone else was taken

2 away?

3 A. I did. Nail Hodzic and Ramo Dzendusic were taken away in the same

4 way.

5 Q. Do you know where the car went?

6 A. Towards the town.

7 Q. After these incidents that you described a few days around

8 Vidovdan, did other people disappear from the KP Dom, other detainees?

9 A. What do you mean, on St. Vitus's Day or ...

10 Q. We've also discussed what happened on St. Vitus's Day, unless you

11 want to add anything to that.

12 A. Yes, yes. Right. Quite right. No, I have nothing to add.

13 Q. The question is: After that day, did other groups of people

14 disappear?

15 A. They did not disappear in the same way, because allegedly the

16 exchange had started.

17 Q. Could you tell us what the procedure was for when people were

18 taken out and told they would be exchanged?

19 A. The policeman on duty would come, or I don't know what you call

20 him, with a list, and he would go to the room, the door of number 13, and

21 would read out the names of people from 13 and he would say, "You get

22 ready, because you are about to be exchanged."

23 Q. And then what would happen to those people?

24 A. And then they would go to the gate and out, and after that, I

25 don't know, but they would leave the KP Dom.

1 Q. On what dates did this happen?

2 A. The exchanges began in late July, because at that time we were

3 quite a number. And one could not really remember who is going, because

4 when there are 600 people, then it's difficult if only 10 men leave.

5 Q. Approximately how many people were taken out from July?

6 A. All in all or ...?

7 Q. You said it was hard to keep track of people when they were taken

8 out. Did there come a time when you were able to keep track of people?

9 A. Yes. Yes, it did.

10 Q. Can you estimate about how many people were taken out that you

11 were not able to keep track of? Before you started keeping track, how

12 many people were taken out?

13 A. Around 500, I'd say.

14 Q. When did you start keeping track of who was taken out?

15 A. On the 31st of August, 1992.

16 Q. Can you tell us what happened on that day?

17 A. That morning, between 50 and 55 men left. It was the first large

18 group that left.

19 Q. What happened to them?

20 A. They were taken away in the morning, but they came back in the

21 evening, and I learnt from them that they had been to Niksic and then

22 turned back to the KP Dom.

23 Q. Did all 50 or 55 of them stay in the KP Dom?

24 A. No. The next morning, they singled out 20 and took them away in

25 an unknown direction, and those 30, 34, 35, they returned to their room

1 and stayed there.

2 Q. Of the 20 people who were taken out at that time, were there

3 elderly people?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What was the age of the oldest person that you know in that group?

6 A. Ninety.

7 Q. Do you remember when -- the date of another exchange?

8 A. I do. After the 31st of August, I remember almost all the

9 exchanges.

10 Q. Before we move on, I forgot to ask you about the 31st of August.

11 Were you able to see outside the window when these people were being taken

12 away?

13 A. I could, yes.

14 Q. Did anybody threaten you not to look?

15 A. Yes, the man on duty. He told us to move away from the window.

16 Q. Who was the man on duty who told you that?

17 A. Obrenovic.

18 Q. Did you know his first name?

19 A. What I heard sounded like Obren Obrenovic, but I'm quite sure

20 about the last name.

21 Q. Tell us, then, about the next exchange. How many people were

22 taken out and when was that?

23 A. The next exchange took place on the 10th of September.

24 Q. How many people were taken out then?

25 A. More than ten.

1 Q. How were they taken out?

2 A. They were taken before lunch, again called out.

3 Q. And when they were called out, who called them out?

4 A. Well, whoever was on duty, I mean one of the guards who was on

5 duty, they invariably would read the list out and the list would be

6 brought from the administration.

7 Q. What happened to those ten people?

8 A. Well, I don't know that any one of them is alive.

9 Q. When was the next group taken out?

10 A. The next group left on the 12th of September again, 1992, after

11 lunch, I mean after 1.00 p.m.

12 Q. How were they taken out?

13 A. They were again called out, except that in this group they were

14 all 25 -- aged 25 to 30, and that included my cousin, my nephew, who was

15 27, so I remember that particular exchange very well.

16 Q. How many people were in that group?

17 A. About 50.

18 Q. What happened to your nephew? Did you ever see him again?

19 A. Never.

20 Q. Did you ever see any of that group of people again?

21 A. No, none of them from that group, and I knew quite a number of

22 people in that group.

23 Q. When was the next group taken out?

24 A. The next group, September -- ah, yes. On the 17th of September.

25 Q. What happened then?

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1 A. That morning, before breakfast, the guards came and asked for

2 volunteers to pick plums, and that's why I called that group plum

3 pickers. Twenty men left then. But they never volunteered. Again, a

4 list was brought and their names were read out.

5 Q. Did the guards ask for volunteers?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You said they never volunteered. Did people come forward when the

8 guards asked for volunteers?

9 A. Well, yes, some, but they insisted on Sulejman Celik; they wanted

10 him to go.

11 Q. Was Sulejman Celik from your room?

12 A. He was, yes.

13 Q. Did you ever see him again after that?

14 A. No. He was found dead.

15 Q. Where?

16 A. At Previla, which was a hill.

17 Q. Do you know when he was found dead?

18 A. I think his body was exhumated -- I think the exhumation took

19 place last year, or not long ago, at any rate.

20 Q. Do you know what happened to the other men among the plum pickers?

21 A. I know Konjo's brother was also found and buried.

22 Q. What was his name?

23 A. Konjo -- I can't remember the first name.

24 Q. Do you know the brother's name, the one who was found dead?

25 A. No. It eludes me, and I don't think I even wrote it down.

1 Q. When the guards took out these plum pickers, as you call them,

2 were they told what to bring with them?

3 A. Yes. They were told they were going to pick plums. They would

4 not allow them to take their affairs with them. They told them that they

5 would get uniforms to pick plums instead.

6 Q. So did those people leave their belongings behind?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did they ever come -- did anybody ever come to fetch their

9 belongings for them?

10 A. No, never.

11 Q. When did the next group get taken out?

12 A. Same day, afternoon, 15 men, plums again. They said they were

13 short of labour.

14 Q. What happened to those 15 men?

15 A. They are gone. Not one of them.

16 Q. When was the next group taken out?

17 A. The next group was taken away on the 18th, but some of them are

18 still alive.

19 Q. The 18th of September; is that right?

20 A. Correct, yes, 1992.

21 Q. Were those men told that they would be exchanged?

22 A. Yes. Yes. They were not told that they would be going to pick

23 plums. They were told that they would be exchanged.

24 Q. And after the 18th, when was the next group?

25 A. On the 31st of October, 30 men left.

1 Q. What were the circumstances under which they left?

2 A. It was men from Nevesinje who came and took them away, and it was

3 said that 30 of them were going for 10 Chetniks.

4 Q. Did you ever see any of those 30 again?

5 A. I did. I did. They're alive.

6 Q. When was the next group taken out?

7 A. In December 1992. On the 18th -- no. On the 8th of December,

8 1992, 12 men left.

9 Q. What were the circumstances under which they left?

10 A. Same thing. They were called out -- their names were called out

11 for exchange.

12 Q. Did you ever see those people again?

13 A. I remember those on the 12th, I remember those better, not the

14 other group.

15 Q. So on the 8th of December, did you ever see those 12 people again,

16 or are you saying you don't remember?

17 A. I don't. I don't. I don't remember that group, but I know that

18 there were 12 of them.

19 Q. And then on the 12th of December was a group taken?

20 A. That is correct. Eight men.

21 Q. How were those eight taken?

22 A. Again, the names were called out and they were to be exchanged,

23 but, but about them I find out when I got to Kula on the 23rd of October,

24 1993. I found there that friend of mine in the camp at Kula.

25 Q. What did that friend tell you happened to those eight people?

1 A. My friend said, "When we left the administrative building, they

2 immediately took off all the clothes that we had that were any good, and

3 beat us there."

4 Q. Inside the administrative building or outside?

5 A. In front. In front of the administrative building, right in front

6 of it.

7 Q. Did your friend say who beat them? Were they guards or soldiers

8 or civilians?

9 A. Guards.

10 Q. What happened after these men were beaten?

11 A. Then they put them onto that small car, "Pivovara" and

12 took them in the direction of Kalinovik.

13 Q. And you mentioned that your friend was one of these eight people,

14 so obviously you saw him later. What happened to the others?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. And after the 12th of December, do you remember any other groups

17 being taken out?

18 A. No, there were no more groups. In 1993 on the 5th of May,

19 Dr. Ibro Karovic was taken away.

20 Q. All right. Did a journalist ever come visit you or other

21 detainees in KP Dom?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When was that?

24 A. It was in 1992 before the plum pickers left. It was in September,

25 early September 1992.

1 Q. Who was the journalist?

2 A. They said they came from Duga, an independent paper from Novi Sad.

3 Q. What room did they visit?

4 A. They visited my room, 21.

5 Q. What did they want to know?

6 A. They came and said they had nothing with the authorities, that

7 they were independent, and that we could -- that we could tell them

8 everything, how we had been treated, we were being treated, what they were

9 doing to us, et cetera, et cetera, and that they would not tell them

10 anything.

11 Q. Did any of the detainees talk to the journalist?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who was that?

14 A. Sulejman Celik discussed things with them.

15 Q. What did Sulejman Celik tell the journalists?

16 A. He said, "You're too late. It's too late to ask about us because

17 very many of ours, many of us, many Muslims, have already been taken away

18 from the camp."

19 Q. Did he explain anything further to the journalist?

20 A. Well, he complained a little, but he mostly spoke about the

21 disappearance of people.

22 Q. What was the reaction of the journalist?

23 A. There was no reaction, only later. When they left, that evening

24 as we were coming back from the dinner, Sulejman was stopped and then

25 beaten.

1 Q. Who stopped him?

2 A. Guards, guards in the camp.

3 Q. Where was Sulejman Celik beaten?

4 A. In front of the solitary cell.

5 Q. And what happened to him further?

6 A. Further when they needed volunteers, they looked for him right

7 away. And when people volunteered but they were not happy with those,

8 then they brought a list, and the first name on that list was the name of

9 Sulejman Celik.

10 Q. When you say "volunteer," what was the volunteering for?

11 A. Plum picking.

12 Q. Did you say anything to the journalist?

13 A. I did not because I knew it was fake. I knew they were their men.

14 Q. How did you know that?

15 A. Nobody independent could come, could get there. Nobody who was

16 not connected with them could go there.

17 Q. Did any of the other detainees in your room other than Sulejman

18 Celik speak to the journalist?

19 A. Yes, but those were all just, just stories.

20 Q. What do you mean by that? What did they tell him?

21 A. Well, they wanted to be released. Would they write in their paper

22 that they were in the camp, that their names were such and such. Would

23 they plead with the Red Cross or with the authorities, intercede on our

24 behalf.

25 Q. But did those detainees tell the journalists what was happening in

1 the KP Dom?

2 A. No, they did not dare. Only Sulejman Celik. He just said it

3 inadvertently, and I think that he was sorry later on that he had spoken.

4 Q. Were people -- were detainees ever asked to make blood donations?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When was that?

7 A. It was in the beginning, in May.

8 Q. Do you know anybody who donated blood?

9 A. I do. Veiz -- I mean, Munib, because he was a blood donor even

10 before the war, and I think he donated blood on two occasions, I believe.

11 Q. Do you know if these blood donations were voluntary or not?

12 A. It was voluntary at the time.

13 Q. Do you know who the warden of KP Dom was when you were there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who was it?

16 A. Milorad Krnojelac, Krnojelac.

17 Q. Did you know Milorad Krnojelac from before the war?

18 A. No, I did not.

19 Q. Did you ever see him at KP Dom?

20 A. Yes, I did see him in the KP Dom.

21 Q. What did you see him doing?

22 A. I learned that he was the KP Dom warden.

23 Q. How did you learn it?

24 A. I learned it from his colleague, Rasim Jusufovic, and Tafro, a

25 manager from the Maglic Company.

1 Q. Do you know whether detainees had contact with Milorad Krnojelac

2 at KP Dom?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What kind of contact did they have?

5 A. They would say it to the guard that they'd like to see the warden.

6 Q. And were they permitted to do that?

7 A. Some of them did go to see him.

8 Q. Do you know what they went to see the warden about?

9 A. Well, I remember that Cankusic went to inquire -- to ask about the

10 whereabouts of his sons.

11 Q. Where were his sons, do you know?

12 A. They were taken away on St. Vitus's Day.

13 Q. So Mr. Cankusic's sons were at KP Dom and then taken away?

14 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

15 Q. What was his first name, Mr. Cankusic?

16 A. I can't remember. I think that I did not write it down.

17 Q. Do you know the names of Mr. Cankusic's sons?

18 A. I don't know.

19 MS. KUO: Your Honours, just for reference, and we're not asking

20 this witness to give this testimony, but on Schedule C at numbers 3 and 5,

21 there are -- I'm sorry, at numbers 3 and 4 are two people listed with the

22 last name Cankusic.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Whilst we've just got this interruption, when this

24 document that he's been referred to first came up, he said that he

25 prepared it when he was first invited to come here and when he was

1 preparing his evidence. Could we have some idea as to when that was? It

2 may have some weight in determining how we approach this particular

3 document.

4 MS. KUO: Yes, certainly.

5 Q. When did you start preparing this document? Do you remember the

6 approximate month, let's say?

7 A. Well, this was not written down when I was scheduled or planned to

8 come here to testify. I wrote this down about six months prior to that.

9 Q. So was this last year that you started to prepare this document?

10 A. Yes, yes, because I knew that I would come here to testify.

11 Q. You said Mr. Cankusic spoke with Krnojelac, inquiring about the

12 whereabouts of his two sons. Did he tell you what Mr. Krnojelac told him

13 had happened?

14 A. That his sons were sentenced and that they went to serve their

15 term.

16 Q. Did he say where?

17 A. In Bileca.

18 Q. And were specifics given about what they were sentenced for?

19 A. No, he didn't say specifically. He simply said that they were on

20 some kind of a list, and then he inquired and asked, "Why did you beat

21 them so much?" And he replied they had to in order to have them confess.

22 Now, what is it that they confessed, I don't know.

23 Q. Did Mr. Cankusic tell you himself about this conversation?

24 A. He told me, and he was in the Room 12, and there was a window

25 there. And his relatives, his neighbours, asked him whether he knew

1 something about his sons, and he told me what I've just told you, and this

2 is what I heard.

3 Q. Did you ever see or hear yourself detainees complain to

4 Mr. Krnojelac?

5 A. I didn't hear that. I simply know that some people asked to go

6 and see him, to go and talk to him.

7 Q. Was there a time when you, when you heard Mr. Krnojelac say

8 something about the food that you were receiving?

9 A. Yes, I did hear once. When -- after -- when we just after the

10 lunch went out and we were standing in line in front of the restaurant

11 because we always had to stand in line, he said, and I don't know

12 whether -- I don't know who in fact asked him, "Mr. Warden, could you

13 improve the food," and he replied, "I distribute everything that I

14 receive."

15 Q. Did he say anything else about why you all were there?

16 A. He didn't.

17 Q. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac on any other occasion?

18 A. Well, I did until they opened a restaurant across from the KP

19 Dom. Prior to that, he would go to have lunch there.

20 Q. Do you know how long Milorad Krnojelac was warden of KP Dom?

21 A. I believe until August of 1993.

22 Q. What happened in August of 1993?

23 A. A new warden came, Zoran Sekulovic.

24 Q. Did he make any statement to the detainees about how things would

25 be at KP Dom?

1 A. He didn't.

2 Q. Did you know Savo Todovic?

3 A. I did.

4 Q. Who was he?

5 A. From what I heard, he was a deputy warden.

6 Q. How did he treat the detainees?

7 A. Well, he instilled fear in detainees.

8 Q. How did he do that?

9 A. Well, when Zekovic escaped, he put the entire population of the

10 working room into the confinement, solitary confinement, and a number of

11 people survived, and I heard from them how he beat them at the time and

12 how he told them that he would kill them all unless they catch Zekovic.

13 Q. Were you present when this was happening? I mean, did you see him

14 do this?

15 A. I didn't see that. I was in my room and this was taking place in

16 the isolation cell.

17 Q. Did you know Mitar Rasevic?

18 A. I did. He was a commander of the security.

19 Q. How did he treat detainees?

20 A. Well, he would come into our rooms on a number of occasions and

21 ask us how -- inquire as to how they treated us. He would inquire as to

22 how his staff treated us.

23 Q. Did people tell him?

24 A. Well, nobody dared complain. We simply asked him to increase our

25 food rations, because the food that was left after dinner would be thrown

1 away, so we simply asked that it be distributed to us.

2 Q. Was that done?

3 A. It was done.

4 Q. Were there guards who did not mistreat prisoners, or did all the

5 guards mistreat the detainees?

6 A. There were some that did not mistreat us, but very few.

7 Q. When were you taken away from KP Dom?

8 A. I was taken away on the 23rd of October of 1993.

9 Q. Where were you taken?

10 A. I was taken to a camp at Kula in Sarajevo.

11 Q. Were you told why you were taken there?

12 A. No. I was taken there. Zoran Matovic, who was on duty, came in,

13 called out my name, and said, "You are going to Sarajevo as part of an

14 exchange."

15 Q. How long did you stay in the Kula camp?

16 A. About ten months.

17 Q. Did you have a choice about whether to stay in the Kula camp or go

18 anywhere else?

19 A. I did not have a choice. I was brought there and delivered

20 there. I had no choice.

21 Q. Did you ever see anybody from -- any of the prison staff, the

22 staff from the KP Dom, at the Kula camp? Did anybody come visit?

23 A. Yes. I saw Todovic with another man, and I think I was going to

24 lunch when he saw me and he asked me, "Hadzimusic, aren't you exchanged

25 yet? If you don't like it here, let's go back with me to Foca." I

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1 replied that I was almost ready to get into the APC and that I am about to

2 be exchanged.

3 Q. When were you finally exchanged?

4 A. I was exchanged on July 17th, 1994, at the bridge called

5 Bratstvo-Jedinstvo.

6 Q. In what city?

7 A. In Sarajevo.

8 Q. As a result of the time that you spent in the KP Dom, could you

9 tell us what physical suffering you underwent.

10 A. Well, I have hypertension, cardiac arrhythmia, my blood pressure

11 goes up and down, I have an increased blood sugar, I am tense, and also

12 some problems with my head. I have difficulty remembering names, and this

13 is why I use this list, to trigger my memory.

14 Q. Did you suffer emotionally as a result of being detained at KP

15 Dom?

16 A. I did.

17 Q. Can you describe to us what?

18 A. Yes. The best years of my life were those years. When I entered

19 KP Dom I was 47 years old and I was full of life, full of enthusiasm, and

20 now I have trouble sleeping. At the time, I had everything I needed and

21 now I don't have anything. I am not looking forward to anything anymore,

22 because I can't laugh or cry anymore. Before, I used to like to sing and

23 now I can't even whistle properly.

24 MS. KUO: No further questions, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination. Mr. Vasic.

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:

3 Q. Hello. Let me introduce myself. I'm counsel Vasic, Defence

4 counsel for the accused Krnojelac.

5 Could you tell us, please, whether you had given statements to the

6 investigators of the Prosecution with respect to this case.

7 A. What do you mean?

8 Q. Did you give a statement on the 2nd of June of 1999?

9 A. I have trouble recollecting.

10 Q. And also on the 19th of April, 1996?

11 A. I have trouble remembering dates.

12 Q. Based on your current testimony -- we heard quite a number of

13 dates today, so I don't know what to think, whether you remember dates

14 well or perhaps those dates that were mentioned by you today are not

15 correct.

16 A. They are correct, all of them, and I remember all dates after

17 August 31st, 1992.

18 Q. Then do you remember the August of 1996 [as interpreted] and 2nd

19 June of 1999?

20 A. I remember the dates that I mentioned today because those were my

21 friends and neighbours that were taken away. I had nothing else to do, so

22 I had no trouble remembering those dates. But the dates that you mention,

23 I have trouble remembering them, because my life has changed today. I

24 don't have an apartment, I -- my future is uncertain.

25 JUDGE HUNT: I know we have to go through this every time, but

1 please remember, you are speaking the same language, it's the same

2 interpreter that has to take both the question and the answer, and they

3 have to catch up. So would you please pause, Mr. Vasic, before you ask a

4 question, pause at the end of the answer.

5 And Mr. Hadzimusic, would you pause after you hear the question,

6 just for a few moments, before you give the answer, to enable the

7 translator to catch up. That translator there was able to carry nearly

8 five minutes of testimony in their memory, which was a pretty good effort,

9 but you shouldn't really put them to that test.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

11 Q. Could you tell me, please, whether investigators from the

12 Prosecution came to ask you about the events pertaining to the KP Dom in

13 Foca.

14 A. What do you mean? Come and see me where?

15 Q. Since the statement does not indicate where the interview took

16 place, so I suppose that they went to see you at the place where you lived

17 at the time.

18 A. Yes, they came and spoke to me in Sarajevo.

19 Q. How many times did they visit you?

20 A. Twice.

21 Q. Do you remember which year they came to visit you?

22 A. Well, I could not really think about that, because I struggled. I

23 had a daily struggle for life, so I couldn't give you precisely which year

24 it was when they came to visit me.

25 Q. Did you prepare yourself for the interview with the

1 representatives of the Prosecution?

2 A. No, never.

3 Q. But you stated that you prepared yourself for the testimony here.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell us how you prepared yourself?

6 A. Well, I wrote down these names so that I wouldn't go through an

7 extreme effort of trying to recollect them here, because my brain is tired

8 as it is. And while they asked questions back there, I had time to come

9 up with an answer.

10 Q. Did you give them names during those interviews?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you read your statement at the end, read and sign every page

13 of your statement?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. I would like to read out a segment of your statement

16 of 2nd June of 1999 which was given by you to the investigators of the

17 Prosecution.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Has it got a paragraph number, Mr. Vasic, so the

19 translators can pick it up?

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. That's

21 document ID 224A. It's in B/C/S language, on page 3, paragraph 4. It

22 starts with the name Savo Todovic.

23 "Savo Todovic was his deputy and I saw him often in the camp. I

24 did not know him from before. Other detainees told me that he worked in

25 KP Dom even before the war. I only spoke to him once. I went to the

1 factory because I wanted to work. Todovic told me that I couldn't work

2 due to my handicap. He was in charge of everything. He seemed to me to

3 be more responsible than Krnojelac, who in my opinion was the warden only

4 on paper."

5 Did you state this?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it true?

8 A. Well, this was a figure of speech. Krnojelac cannot be less

9 responsible. I simply said it there figuratively speaking. Krnojelac was

10 the warden and this other man was his deputy, and so in this general

11 context, this is how I came to give this statement.

12 Q. You stated here that, based on your opinion, Mr. Krnojelac was

13 only the warden on paper. Is it true that you stated that?

14 A. Yes, but simply -- if I may add, I said it. It is true that I

15 said it, but he was the warden. Now, it is quite insignificant that I

16 made a comparison between the two of them.

17 Q. Sir, you gave this statement. Based on your own words, you gave

18 this to the best of your recollection and ability, and you gave the

19 statement voluntarily. Now, were you saying the truth at the time?

20 A. I was not saying the truth because he was not insignificant. I

21 assessed them based on what was happening in the camp because he was not

22 really showing up frequently, whereas his deputy was. And I'm not saying

23 this to justify him and I'm not saying this to add to his liability

24 because it is a well-known fact what was done by Krnojelac and what was

25 done by Todovic, so each man should be held accountable for what they

1 did. I as a handicapped person spent 820 days in a camp.

2 Q. Sir, so did you just tell me that you were not saying the truth to

3 the investigator of the Prosecution on the 2nd of June, 1999, despite the

4 fact that you had stated that you would give the statement to the best of

5 your ability, voluntarily, and that after that you had signed the

6 statement as an accurate statement?

7 A. The word that I used is really a tiniest fraction of what happened

8 to me during those 820 days, so you can basically disregard it. I cannot

9 relieve him of his responsibility through that statement of mine, and I

10 cannot add to his liability, either.

11 Q. I did not ask you to release him or to add to his liability, I

12 simply asked you whether you had stated this and whether this was true.

13 Did you indeed give the statement to the investigator? You said you did.

14 Now I asked you --

15 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, he has said now three times. That is what

16 he said. He sought to explain it away. Don't you think that you may have

17 made enough of this? It's a question really for us at the end, not for

18 the witness. He has maintained throughout he was in fact the warden.

19 Now, if he was in fact the warden and we hold him responsible for

20 what Mr. Todovic did, that's another matter, but you're not going to get

21 anywhere by arguing with the witness. You've got his statement; he had

22 said what you read out to him. It's up to us to make what we can of it.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

24 Q. Sir, did you say to the investigator of the Prosecution, did you

25 also state that Mr. Sekulovic, upon arriving in July of 1993, stated that

1 if military police were to come and look for any of you, that he had no

2 authority to stop them, to prevent them?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Did you, in the same statement to the investigator,

5 say that you infrequently saw Mr. Krnojelac at the KP Dom?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Did you -- were you a member of SDA in 1992?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When asked by my learned colleague, you stated that you were in

10 possession of a weapon.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What kind of a weapon did you have?

13 A. A revolver, pistol.

14 Q. Was that the only weapon you had?

15 A. I also had a grenade.

16 Q. Did you also have a German rifle, Schmeisser?

17 A. We had it as one of our weapons, but it was not mine.

18 Q. Did you state to the investigators of the Prosecution that you

19 paid 1200 German marks for a German rifle Schmeisser, and that it was

20 purchased by your brother, and another one?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Did you, prior to being arrested, have in your

23 possession this rifle?

24 A. Occasionally I had it in my possession.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, but it is

1 4.00, and I don't know if this would be an appropriate time to stop

2 cross-examination.

3 JUDGE HUNT: It's a strange clock this, because each side seems to

4 see it from a different perspective but still manage to finish some

5 minutes early. However, we'll adjourn now until 9.30 tomorrow.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m., to

7 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23^rd day of January,

8 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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