1 Monday, 28 May 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you please make the solemn declaration in

10 the document which the usher is handing you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I solemnly declare that I will

12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 WITNESS: MILADIN MATOVIC

14 [Witness answered through interpreter].

15 JUDGE HUNT: Please sit down, sir.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, before we start, the transcription

18 service has supplied us with a note in relation to that matter which was

19 raised on the 14th of May about whether it was July or June. If you

20 remember the transcript had July, you suggested it was June, and they have

21 listened again and they agree with you, it should be June. So that

22 correction will be made.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We have been

24 notified of this in writing as well, so thank you ever so much. I don't

25 know whether this is a good moment to say the following: There are

1 changes with respect to the videolink. Now that the solemn declaration

2 has been made, should we raise this issue very briefly, or perhaps after

3 we finish with this witness and before the other witness begins? We ask

4 for a videolink for one witness for health reasons, and this person is

5 feeling better now, apparently, so he would like to come here and

6 testify. He is coming in connection with a lot of documents, so it would

7 be much easier for him to comment upon all these documents here in the

8 courtroom rather than by videolink. So perhaps this may be a good moment

9 for us to ask you that.

10 Can we have a change with regard to the videolink, actually, only

11 in respect of this one witness, Bozo Drakul is his name.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Certainly. Well, the order was made on Friday

13 because the registry felt that it was important to have something in

14 writing in order to persuade the authorities, local authorities to

15 cooperate. It includes his name, but we can vary that orally, I think. If

16 necessary, we'll confirm it in writing, but we'll simply remove his name

17 from the list of witnesses to be heard. Is that what you want?

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Defence does

19 not have any requests in terms of written requests. It would be enough to

20 have him removed from the videolink list, and we will call him in next

21 week so he can give direct, live testimony before the Trial Chamber.

22 JUDGE HUNT: And the husband and wife will still be giving

23 evidence in Belgrade, will they? The one where the wife was ill and the

24 husband has to help her.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour. That's the

1 way it is. And it has been confirmed that they're ready to go there.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Will you proceed with this witness then. Thank you.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Examined by Mr. Bakrac:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

6 A. Good morning.

7 Q. I'm going to ask you something that we ask each and every

8 witness. Since you and I speak the same language and since all the other

9 participants speak another language, when I put a question to you, could

10 you please pause briefly waiting for that question to be interpreted, and

11 then answer, please. Maybe it will be easier for you this way. You have

12 a monitor in front of you. I hope the transcript is on, and you will

13 see when the typing stops, that means that the question, my question, has

14 been interpreted and then you can give an answer.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Tell me, sir, what's your name and surname?

17 A. My name is Miladin Matovic. I was born in 1956, in a village

18 called Dragojevici, five kilometres away from Foca.

19 Q. You said 1956. Could you please tell us the exact date?

20 A. The 16th of April, 1956.

21 Q. Could you please tell me your marital status and have you got any

22 children?

23 A. I am married. I have two daughters. My older daughter was born

24 in 1979, and my younger daughter was born in 1992.

25 Q. Where do you live?

1 A. Now I live in an apartment not far away from the KP Dom in Foca.

2 It has 56 square metres, the apartment does.

3 Q. Since when have you lived in Foca?

4 A. Since 1981.

5 Q. Could you please be so kind as to tell me what kind of an

6 education you have and where you completed school and when?

7 A. I completed secondary school in Foca. Then I started studying at

8 a post-secondary school of management, but I didn't manage to graduate

9 from that school because my daughter was born at that time and I was not

10 doing very good financially so I couldn't continue my education.

11 So I haven't completed this post-secondary school of management yet.

12 In addition to that, within my own company I passed an examination

13 and became a professional fire fighter.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, you are starting your answers too soon. I know

15 you're anxious to get on with it, but just pause a little longer. Watch

16 that typing. You came in very much before the translators had

17 finished the question on that occasion.

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Did you do your military service, and where?

21 A. I did my military service in 1975 in Banja Luka, and then in

22 Subotica.

23 Q. Do you have a criminal record?

24 A. No. None whatsoever. I was never even sentenced for a

25 misdemeanour or anything like that.

1 Q. Sir, could you please be so kind as to tell me where did you get

2 your first job and when?

3 A. I got a job on the 6th of April, 1977, at the KP Dom in Foca.

4 Q. And until when did you work at the KP Dom in Foca?

5 A. I worked there until the present day. I never stopped working

6 there.

7 Q. So before the war conflict broke out in Foca you worked in the KP

8 Dom as well; is that right?

9 A. Yes, that's right. Yes, yes, I did work there. Yes, I did work

10 there. I did work in the KP Dom before the conflict and during the

11 conflict, but there were a few interruptions when I went to the front

12 line.

13 Q. We are going to get to that, sir. Tell me, please, since you got

14 a job and until the war conflict broke out, what was your precise job in

15 the KP Dom?

16 A. First I worked as a trainee, and that went on for about six

17 months. So I worked on external security at Karola [phoen].

18 Q. I do apologise. You said that you worked as a trainee. Let's

19 clarify this. Is this is trainee guard or something else?

20 A. A trainee guard, yes. After I passed my exam to become a guard, I

21 was transferred to all other jobs as a junior policeman; that is to say,

22 censorship, work at the gate, the building itself, driver of a specialised

23 vehicle and various other jobs involved in external security.

24 Q. Did you work your way up afterwards? Did you pass some

25 examinations so that you could move up the ladder?

1 A. After being a junior policeman for three years, I applied to pass

2 an examination in order to become a senior policeman. That brought me a

3 better job and a bigger salary, and I managed to pass that examination.

4 Q. In addition to this examination for becoming a senior policeman,

5 did you pass any other examinations?

6 A. In view of the convicted persons doing their time in the KP Dom,

7 we organised a fire brigade. Most of the policemen and employees had to

8 pass this test in order to become professional fire fighters. I passed

9 that test as well in order to become a professional fire fighter. And I

10 was the only one who was in charge of such operations.

11 Q. Sir, do you know when the war conflict broke out in Foca, when the

12 armed conflict began?

13 A. Since I worked on censorship those days, and the censorship

14 working hours were from 8 a.m. until 3 p.m., that is to say, on the 8th of

15 April when I went to work, I came across some road blocks by the Cafe Bor

16 that were placed by the Muslims. I passed the first road block, and then

17 perhaps after some 50 metres or so I came across another road block. At

18 this road block I recognised some of my neighbours who were on duty

19 there. Among them was Sahimpasic, Saja, a certain named called Raha, I

20 don't know his exact name, and Paja.

21 Q. Before the war conflict broke out, did you somehow find out or did

22 you know that the Muslims were arming themselves?

23 A. Well, of course, we knew, not only I, but the entire population of

24 the town, in a way, found out, because those conflicts started from the

25 very beginnings of Focatrans, and we were sure that they were arming

1 themselves. I also had information from my colleagues at work, those who

2 worked together with me, and they told me that they were arming themselves

3 and that they also did guard duty during the night, so this was a friendly

4 conversation between him and me because we were really close friends.

5 Q. This colleague who told you about this, is he an ethnic Muslim?

6 A. Yes, yes, an ethnic Muslim.

7 Q. This -- these persons you met at the road block, were they armed?

8 A. On the 8th of April when I set out around 7.30 a.m., I found these

9 persons there. I said, "Good morning, neighbours." One of them replied

10 to me, said, "Good morning," and asked where I was going. I said to him

11 that I was going to work, and that I was supposed to start work at 8.00.

12 "Good-bye and good luck," that was all.

13 Q. Were they armed?

14 A. Yes, they were armed. They had automatic rifles and camouflage

15 uniforms.

16 Q. When you came to the KP Dom, what time was it and what happened

17 after that? Can you tell us about that?

18 A. I came to the KP Dom around 15 minutes to 8.00. The house where

19 I lived and the KP Dom are about 15 minutes away from each other, if you

20 go on foot. I told my colleagues about what had happened to me, and some

21 of them said to me that the same thing happened to them as well, and that

22 some colleagues were even returned and were not allowed to pass the road

23 blocks, so they did not even get to work that day.

24 Q. Were there any colleagues of Muslim ethnicity who came to the KP

25 Dom on that day, and were there also Serb colleagues of yours there too?

1 A. Yes. There were -- well, I can't remember the exact number, but

2 there were about ten of us Serbs, and there were many more Muslims,

3 between 15 and 20.

4 Q. After you came to the KP Dom, did shooting start in town, and did

5 fighting start?

6 A. When I came to the KP Dom, that was on the 8th of April, I stayed

7 there, the KP Dom, on the 8th and 9th and 10th of April. And there was

8 shooting, certainly, from the area of Sukovac. They were firing mortars

9 at the KP Dom and also the surrounding villages around the KP Dom. There

10 were two or three houses facing the hospital where Serbs, ethnic Serbs

11 lived, and they were shelled.

12 Q. When this fighting broke out, did some of the prisoners, or

13 rather, convicts who were at the KP Dom start running away from the KP

14 Dom?

15 A. Yes, yes. A number of convicts started running away. Unrest

16 could be felt, perhaps already on the 7th of April. However, on the 8th

17 of April, they started fleeing. Since the police and the leadership of

18 the KP Dom saw that we could not stop this, the gate was opened, gate

19 number 3, the one that is in front of the boiler room. So it was made

20 possible for all of those who wanted to leave to go, but very few left.

21 Q. Can you remember how many convicted persons remained at the KP

22 Dom?

23 A. I cannot remember the exact number, but to the best of my

24 knowledge, between 98 and 105 convicts, that is to say, about 100.

25 Q. Can you remember when you all stayed behind at the KP Dom, all of

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 you together, which date?

2 A. All of us stayed together there for three days, that is to say,

3 until the 10th we stayed at the KP Dom, Serbs and Muslims.

4 Q. So what happened then on the 10th of April?

5 A. On the 10th of April, on the 10th of April we all gathered

6 together, ethnic Serbs and Muslims. Together with us was the then deputy

7 warden, Alija Berberkic, and the head of the rehabilitation service,

8 Milutin Tijanic. There were also some rehabilitation officers and for the

9 most part security officers.

10 Q. You said the assistant warden, Alija Berberkic, and the head of

11 the rehabilitation service, Milutin Tijanic. Where was warden Radojica

12 Tesevic, was he at the KP Dom?

13 A. Warden Radojica Tesevic, warden Radojica Tesevic was not in the

14 KP Dom. Radojica Tesevic was at the women's prison at Velecevo.

15 Q. And what was decided on that day?

16 A. Since shooting started on the 10th from the direction of Sukovac

17 at the KP Dom, I found out that the Muslims were supposed to attack the KP

18 Dom from Sukovac. Milutin Tijanic, then deputy warden, assembled us in

19 the hall between the guard on duty's room and the entrance gate. He

20 locked this area, and he told us that no one would come out of there alive

21 until we first get all the prisoners out safely.

22 Q. You said you found out that the Muslims -- that the KP Dom would

23 be attacked from the direction of Sukovac. How did you find out? Where

24 did you get this information from?

25 A. I got this piece of information from my colleague who had been

1 spending time in the guard on duty's room with his Muslim colleague,

2 Halic [as interpreted], and he managed to find out that the Muslim guards

3 had been keeping in touch with the Muslims who were supposed to attack the

4 KP Dom.

5 Q. Excuse me, you said [redacted], and it says Halic in the transcript.

6 Could you please repeat the name.

7 A. [redacted]is the name, [redacted].

8 Q. Thank you. You said, and it says so in the transcript quite

9 correctly, you said deputy warden Milutin Tijanic whereas you had said

10 before that Alija Berberkic was the deputy warden. Could you explain what

11 was the position of Milutin Tijanic

12 A. Milutin Tijanic was then head of the rehabilitation service and

13 he is now deputy warden, that's why I made this mistake.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment, please, sir. Do pause before you

15 start your answer. The moment there's a long question, the interpreters

16 lose you. So just wait, just watch the typing.

17 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. On that day, were the prisoners transferred somewhere and where?

20 A. On that day, once we decided to go our separate ways, it was the

21 10th of April, the convicts were transferred in Furgon-type trucks in the

22 direction of Montenegro.

23 Q. Did they go directly to Montenegro, or did they stop somewhere on

24 the way?

25 A. No, they did not go directly. We transferred them in two vans,

1 first to Velecevo, and from Velecevo, together with Milutin Tijanic,

2 then chief, and Radojica Tesevic, then warden, some policemen and some

3 rehabilitation officers, they were transferred to Montenegro. In fact,

4 they went in the direction of Montenegro, and they were transferred then

5 to Tuzla.

6 Q. Do you happen to know when the former warden, Radojica Tesevic,

7 returned from this, shall we call it, mission to Foca?

8 A. I can't remember the exact date, but I think it was in mid-May, 15

9 or 20 days later.

10 Q. Did you know that the ex-warden would come back to Foca?

11 A. To tell you the truth, nobody could make any assumptions because

12 desertion was widespread in those days, and none of the employees could go

13 as far as to expect that Radojica Tesevic would come back.

14 Q. You have just told us where the convicts were transferred. When

15 they were taken away, you, who worked in the KP Dom and who remained

16 behind, what did you do? Did you stay at the KP Dom or did you go

17 somewhere?

18 A. We, the staff of the KP Dom, there were ten of us Serbs and 15 to

19 20 Muslims, we went down to the gate and we agreed to leave the KP Dom

20 together. I left towards the village of Josanica, which is my home

21 village, together with then deputy warden Alija Berberkic, rehabilitation

22 officer, Mensud Bradaric, rehabilitation officer, Irfan, policeman Muhamed

23 Mandzo, and some other men whom I don't remember now, as well as Zulfo

24 Dzano, and other people whom, as I say, I cannot recall, and I remember

25 Risto Ivanovic and Zdravko Ivanovic out of the Serbs. We went all

1 together on a bus to Josanica.

2 Q. You say a bus. Whose bus was it?

3 A. The bus was the property of the KP Drina Company, and since it was

4 a rather well-known company in the town, we had a large rolling stock,

5 including some fire engines, vans, Mercedes cars, Poly cars, Ladas, et

6 cetera.

7 Q. Speaking of all these cars, did you find them when you came back

8 to the KP Dom?

9 A. We found just one used Lada. The bus had been taken away to

10 Ustikolina by Muslims, as was the Mercedes, and the fire engine with the

11 fire pump, and other vehicles that had also been taken away towards

12 Ustikolina by the Muslims. We were left with one Lada and Furgon-type

13 vans, half of which were in working order, half of which were not.

14 As I said, we used the two vans to transfer the convicts

15 towards Tuzla.

16 Q. On the way to Josanica with all the colleagues that you have

17 mentioned, did you pass any guards and road blocks?

18 A. Certainly, because on the way from the KP Dom towards Josanica

19 there is a stretch of villages populated by various ethnic groups. There

20 is a village by the hospital, a Serbian village, and two kilometres away

21 from that is a purely Muslim village by the name of Mandji [phoen]. And

22 then two kilometres from that is the Serbian village of Dragojevici, and

23 after that comes Josanica, which is mixed, and the surrounding villages

24 are also mixed, Serb, Muslim. There were guards standing both by Muslim

25 and by Serb villages.

1 Q. And you passed safely all these guard posts, both the Serb and

2 Muslim?

3 A. When we departed from the KP Dom, my colleague, Zulfo Dzano, with

4 whom I was rather close, came to me and asked me to swear by my children

5 to take these Muslims through all those guard posts towards Josanica.

6 Q. So you passed safely all those guard posts, both Serb and

7 Muslims?

8 A. Yes, certainly. I came with them and took them through to

9 Josanica where we said our good-byes, and in the next two days I spoke to

10 my colleague, Zulfo Dzano, on the telephone.

11 Q. How long did you stay in your village?

12 A. I stayed for about ten days.

13 Q. Before the shooting started, before you set out to work on the

14 8th, in the preceding days did you live in your village, or did you live

15 in Foca?

16 A. I have already said that I had moved to Foca somewhere in 1981,

17 and I lived as a tenant in the house owned by Savo Obrenovic until the war

18 broke out.

19 Q. So you lived there as a tenant with your family?

20 A. Yes, that's correct. As I said, my young daughter was born in

21 that house.

22 Q. At the time when you were at the KP Dom and left it for your

23 village, where was your family, and when did you see and hear from them

24 next?

25 A. We said bye-bye as usual when I went to work that day. She

1 remained behind with the children in the house where we lived.

2 Q. When did you see her or hear from her next after that?

3 A. I went to the KP Dom, then I stayed there for about three days

4 because we were there together, Serbs and Muslims, and after that we went

5 to the village. I stayed at the village for ten days, and during that

6 time I didn't see my family and I didn't see them at all until Foca was

7 liberated, because my family had left together with the landlord and the

8 landlady, and they left towards the --

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the name of the

10 place.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Did you get that message, Mr. Bakrac? The

12 interpreters did not hear the name of the place. They left towards?

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Where did your family go? Please pronounce the name slowly so the

15 interpreters can get it.

16 A. The village of Prevrac near Orahovo, that's in the direction of

17 Orahovo.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Can we have the name of the village spelt, please,

19 Mr. Bakrac.

20 A. P-r-e-v-r-a-c.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Shall the interpreters do it?

22 THE INTERPRETER: P-r-e-v-r-a-c, Prevrac.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. When and how did you find out that your family had left with the

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 landlords to that village?

2 A. Believe me, I still get goose bumps when I remember that time. I

3 called my home, but nobody answered the phone. I could only think of the

4 worst scenario. I tried to dial the number of my landlady's sister in

5 that village of Prevrac, and she did answer. I introduced myself, and I

6 asked to talk to my landlady, Mila. When she answered the phone, she

7 recognised my voice straightaway and started to cry. I thought that

8 something must be wrong. I thought that something must have happened to

9 my family, that they were dead or something had happened to them. But

10 still I managed to ask about my wife and daughters. She said they were

11 there, and she passed the receiver to my wife, to whom I then talked.

12 I could hear that she was very upset, very excited, alarmed, and I

13 asked her what was going on. And she answered, I quote, "Dear Miladin,

14 in all those 20 years, whatever we had acquired had burned. The

15 Muslims had set fire to those Serb houses in the area where we lived.

16 Savo Obrenovic's house had burnt. Bozo Drakul's house had burnt. The

17 Pavlovic house was burnt down. The house of Milisav Kovac, the dentist,

18 of Momir Kovac, of Milorad Krnojelac."

19 Q. That area, that neighbourhood of the town where you lived, where

20 all these houses had been, was it Donje Polje?

21 A. Yes, it was Donje Polje, Partizanski Put street.

22 Q. Is that a part of the town which was mostly populated by Muslims?

23 A. Yes. That's a town with the majority Muslim population, perhaps

24 80 per cent Muslim.

25 Q. You said town. Did you mean a part of the town, a neighbourhood?

1 A. Yes, I meant the part of that town, the neighbourhood called Donje

2 Polje.

3 Q. Sir, would you be so kind as to tell us if you remember, after you

4 had been to your home village, when did you come back to the KP Dom?

5 A. I arrived at the KP Dom, I can't remember the exact date, but it

6 could have been the 24th or the 25th of April, one of those two days. It

7 may have been the 6th, but it's more probable that it was either the 24th

8 or the 25th.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the 26th, not the

10 6th.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Why did you come back to the KP Dom from your home village?

13 A. When I was in my village during those ten days, I heard a radio

14 announcement that all people who were employed should report to their

15 employers, and my wartime assignment was at the KP Dom.

16 Q. When you arrived at the KP Dom, how were you dressed?

17 A. When I arrived at the KP Dom, I was wearing the uniform in which I

18 usually worked, even before the hostilities started, because that's the

19 only uniform I had kept because I was wearing it. That's the uniform in

20 which I reported for work. All the other uniforms had burnt.

21 Q. For the record, I will ask this again: Did your civilian clothing

22 remain at your home and had it burnt?

23 A. You know, not a tile could have survived that fire, let alone a

24 piece of clothing. Only the walls remained, and even the mortar had fell

25 off them.

1 Q. When you returned to the KP Dom, to whom did you report?

2 A. When I arrived at the KP Dom I think I reported to Veljko Kovac,

3 the guard on duty, and I also found Slavko Koroman just outside the

4 building.

5 Q. And when you reported to them, what did they say?

6 A. They told me that I should go to Livade where the army was in one

7 of the next few days to be issued with some clothing, that is, with a

8 soldier's uniform, and then come back and report to the KP Dom again.

9 Q. And did you go there, and were you issued with this soldier's

10 uniform? When and where?

11 A. I did go several days later. I was issued with that equipment,

12 and I got a compulsory work order from the Ministry of Defence starting

13 with the 1st of May. And I have the certificate to prove when I received

14 this compulsory work order.

15 Q. Could you please show it to us.

16 A. Certainly.

17 Q. When did you find this certificate?

18 A. When I was packing to come here I went through my things and found

19 it. It reads --

20 Q. Thank you. You don't need to read it now. We'll --

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since the witness has

22 brought this certificate with him, could we please get an identification

23 number for it, and we will perhaps tender it at a later stage. If the

24 Prosecution, perhaps, wishes to see the original of the certificate, this

25 is a good time.

1 JUDGE HUNT: If it becomes an exhibit, it will become Exhibit

2 D151. Perhaps the best thing to do rather than go through the process of

3 actually marking it for identification first is simply to tender it and

4 see what happens. Have you got an English translation?

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. We would have liked

6 the witness to have given us this earlier, but unfortunately he brought it

7 with him, and he arrived on Saturday so we didn't have time to see it, let

8 alone make photocopies. But we can get an identification number now and

9 do this later. The Prosecution could, however, have a look at it and let

10 us know whether they agree that this be admitted into evidence.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Well, it will be marked for identification ID D151.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show this

13 document to the Prosecution. If they have no objections -- I mean, this

14 is an original document.

15 JUDGE HUNT: We'll have a photostat made of it. We don't want

16 original documents, if we can avoid them.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We just wanted to

18 show the Prosecution the original, though.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Is there any objection to the tender of it?

20 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE HUNT: We'll make it Exhibit D151. Now, that will have to

22 be copied, Mr. Bakrac, and an English interpretation provided, but you can

23 do that later.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you very

25 much.

1 Q. Sir, since you were issued military equipment at the military

2 command in Livade, and since you were assigned to this work assignment at

3 the KP Dom by the military authorities, you returned to work in the KP

4 Dom; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, that is correct. I returned, and I was assigned to gate

6 number 2.

7 Q. Can you explain this to us in greater detail since we are not very

8 knowledgeable about all of this and you worked at the KP Dom. Where is

9 this gate number 2?

10 A. In the KP Dom there are three gates. Gate 1 is the main gate,

11 the main entrance into the KP Dom, In front of the duty officer's room

12 with an iron gate. Gate 2 is by the furniture factory, and our

13 furniture showroom, and vehicles come in and out there, out of the

14 furniture factory too. And gate number 3 is by the boiler room.

15 Q. Before we move on to details related to your workplace, do you

16 remember what the KP Dom looked like when you came back? Do you remember

17 that?

18 A. After I returned to the KP Dom, believe it or not, I found chaos.

19 My colleagues who came earlier told me that the KP Dom was first taken by

20 the Muslim forces, the Green Berets, and that they spent a few days in the

21 KP Dom. All the cupboards, all the drawers, all the windows were

22 shattered as if a bomb had fallen there. Months and months were required

23 in order to bring things back into order.

24 Q. What about the roof construction, the facade, were they damaged by

25 the shelling?

1 A. Sir, the roof construction was damaged on the factory. The roof

2 construction was damaged on the convicts' buildings and also on the school

3 and the administration building. During the shelling and bombing, the

4 facades were also damaged. Until the present day, we have not managed to

5 repair them.

6 Q. Did you find anything written on the walls or on furniture, some

7 inscriptions that were not there before when you left the KP Dom?

8 A. In the room where our guards would rest after their shifts, we

9 found a drawing of the Patriotic League. In the same room, there were

10 some vulgar terms on the walls. It was things like "Ustasha," "Serbs,

11 there will be no return for you," and other things that I can't remember.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

13 would like to show the witness two photographs of the Prosecution, namely,

14 407461, and 407464.

15 Q. Sir, if you look at this photograph, you will see something

16 written on the door. Can you remember, is that what you found at the KP

17 Dom when you got back?

18 A. Yes, yes. B and H and the sign of the Patriotic League with the

19 lilies.

20 Q. Please take a look at the other photograph. Did you find this

21 inscription on the cupboard when you came back to the KP Dom?

22 A. Yes. These are our lockers that we used for changing. Since we

23 did not have any other cupboards and before the war there was over 100

24 guards in the Security Service, so practically all of us had lockers.

25 Q. Thank you.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] We won't be needing these photographs

2 any longer.

3 Q. Sir, can you please tell us, when you came back to the KP Dom, did

4 you find a certain number of Muslim detainees there?

5 A. Yes. Yes, I found Muslim detainees, and I found convicts who were

6 ethnic Serbs. During the escape and when we organised the transportation

7 for them, they didn't want to leave. As far as I can remember, to the

8 best of my memory, there were about ten of them. They did not leave

9 simply because they had nowhere to go. They did not go because in the

10 areas that they were from, there was also a war that was raging.

11 Q. When you say the areas that they were from, these were persons who

12 were not from Foca; is that right?

13 A. Yes. These were persons who were from other places.

14 Q. These ten persons or so were in the KP Dom before the war broke

15 out; is that right? Just a minute, please finish. Let's not create any

16 problems for the interpreters.

17 Look at the screen. When I put a question to you, I see that you

18 expect a question to be put, and you're looking at me, but just look at

19 the screen, and when the interpretation is over, then answer, please.

20 So these were persons who were serving their sentences that had

21 become final before the war and who were serving their time in the KP Dom;

22 is that right?

23 A. Yes. These were convicts who were there before the conflict broke

24 out. I already said, I think, about ten of them, but they were primarily

25 serving sentences for murder, according to Article 136 of the penal code.

1 Q. Since you worked in the KP Dom for a long time before the war,

2 it's been a long time in all fairness, but can you remember the names of

3 some of these persons?

4 A. Well, it's been nine, ten years, but I'll try. I know Pekic

5 Mile was there. I know Basic [Realtime transcript read in error "Barbic"]

6 Nedeljko was there. I know Mikerevic Nenad was there, Pasic [as

7 interpreted] Nedeljko, and others. It's been a long time. Some Mirkovic

8 Milivoje.

9 Q. The transcript says "Barbic Nedeljko." Did you mean Pasic

10 Nedeljko when you said --

11 A. Basic with a B.

12 Q. Oh, I see, Basic.

13 A. Yes, Basic.

14 Q. Was there a Pasic Nedeljko also, or was there a person by this

15 name also?

16 A. Basic Nedeljko. Basic Nedeljko is the person I referred to, and

17 I'm not aware of any other person.

18 Q. Thank you, sir, because the interpreters could not hear you

19 properly so we have three different versions here. So I wanted to know

20 whether these were three different persons, or whether it is one person

21 whose name is Basic Nedeljko?

22 A. Yes, the name is Basic Nedeljko.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, spelled with a B.

24 Q. Sir, you said that at the KP Dom you found some persons of Muslim

25 ethnicity who had been detained. Who was guarding these persons when you

1 arrived?

2 A. When I arrived in the KP Dom I reported for work duty, and at the

3 KP Dom I found some persons unknown to me and persons who were engaged by

4 the army of Republika Srpska.

5 Q. You say persons unknown to you. Were these persons in military

6 uniform?

7 A. Yes. They were in military uniform, and my colleagues and the

8 others said that these were paramilitary units, primarily from Serbia and

9 Montenegro.

10 Q. When did these persons leave the KP Dom? Do you know about that?

11 A. Paramilitary units from Serbia, Montenegro, left sometime around

12 mid-May, and a number of military conscripts remained on guard duty at the

13 KP Dom, that is to say, people from the area of Foca.

14 Q. You say a number of military conscripts from the area of Foca

15 remained on guard duty. Were these professional guards who worked at the

16 KP Dom before that?

17 A. Certainly. These were professional guards. But in addition to

18 the professional guards, since there was not a sufficient number of

19 professional guards yet and not everybody had responded to mobilisation

20 call-ups because they were at various front lines, we got reinforcements

21 from the army too; that is to say, in terms of the military police. They

22 helped us to carry out these tasks.

23 Q. These persons were also appointed by the military command; is that

24 right? I did not hear an answer.

25 A. Yes, yes. I did say yes. Yes, they were assigned by the army.

1 Q. Did the army later successively bring in former workers of the KP

2 Dom to the KP Dom?

3 A. Yes. Yes, since I already said that there was a general

4 proclamation calling for all to return to the KP Dom, these professionals,

5 policemen -- rather, not policemen but guards, they came to the KP Dom and

6 the KP Dom was then -- then had these people assigned to it.

7 Q. You said that you were issued military equipment and that you were

8 sent to work duty, and that that was your war assignment, that you were

9 sent to the KP Dom. Were you only engaged in guard duty at the KP Dom, or

10 did you go to the front line from time to time?

11 A. Upon arriving at the KP Dom and being issued equipment, I was

12 assigned to this gate number 2. I carried out the duties of guard until

13 the beginning or the end of May. I can't remember the date exactly.

14 After that, I was transferred to the factory, the furniture factory.

15 Q. You said that you were first sent to gate number 2, and that

16 then you were transferred elsewhere. Who assigned you to gate number 2

17 first and then to the furniture factory?

18 A. My superior in the Security Service was Mitar Rasevic, and he

19 assigned me to such duty.

20 Q. You explained to us now where you were assigned first and where

21 you were transferred later. However, my previous question was: In

22 addition to this guard duty, were you also sent to the front line? Did

23 you actually go and fight at the front line?

24 A. Until September I did not. But later we went regularly. I went

25 regularly like all the rest; that is to say, four or five days at the

1 front and then work duty, and that's the way it went.

2 Q. You say that until September you did not. What about your

3 colleagues, did they start going -- did they start going to the front line

4 in May, June, July, before you did?

5 A. Yes, yes, they did. They went but in groups; that is to say, as I

6 had already said, four days at the front and then work duty and then four

7 days at the front and then work duty, so that is how they took turns in

8 groups.

9 Q. You say that at the end of June you were transferred to work at

10 the factory. What was your assignment? Was your only assignment to work

11 at the factory, and what job did you have there?

12 A. I was assigned to the factory for security; that is to say, to

13 work in security, and also in order to establish fire fighting unit,

14 because I was the only person who had passed these examinations in the

15 field of fire fighting. My superior said to me that I should go to the

16 factory. As for fire fighting, I was supposed to take care of everything

17 and do it all properly. At the same time, I was guarding detained Muslims

18 and convicted Serbs who were working at the factory at the time.

19 Q. Can you remember when the Muslim detainees started working at the

20 factory, and how many of them there were, and can you remember some of

21 them perhaps?

22 A. Perhaps from mid-June, about six to eight came to work at the

23 factory. I can't remember the exact number, but I can mention the persons

24 who worked there at the time. There was Mr. [redacted], Mr. Sacir

25 Muratovic, Mr. [redacted], Mr. [redacted] and a

1 colleague of ours who worked there before the war in the furniture factory

2 as a carpenter. I can't remember his exact name, whether it was Trako

3 or Trakic. I think it was Trako. I do apologise, there was another

4 person, Ivan Soldan.

5 Q. You said that to the best of your memory you think that they

6 started working in mid-June. What were their working hours, when did they

7 start work and until when did they work?

8 A. Working hours were from 7.00 until 1500 hours at the furniture

9 factory.

10 Q. Were these your working hours as well?

11 A. Yes. In that period I was the only one who provided security

12 there, so we went to work together and we came back from the factory, from

13 working at the factory together too.

14 Q. So you worked every day from 7.00 until 1500 hours at your

15 security job?

16 A. At the factory. Yes, that is to say, I worked in the factory

17 every day from 7.00 until 1500 hours with these Muslims and Serbs who

18 worked there at the time.

19 Q. And before you came to the factory, when you were at gate number

20 2, what kind of working hours did you have then?

21 A. I worked at gate number 2 from 6.00 a.m. until 1800 hours, so I

22 had a break of 24 hours, and then again I would start working from 1800

23 hours until 6.00 a.m., so that involved work in shifts.

24 Q. When you were transferred to the security at the factory, and then

25 after 1500 hours you went home; is that correct?

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 A. Well, let me tell you. I stayed at the factory after 1500

2 hours -- I mean I worked with them until 1500 hours. I would see them off

3 to their rooms, and then I would return again to provide security for the

4 factory, and I would stay there for another couple of hours, depending on

5 what was needed by the factory.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's 11.00. Perhaps

7 this may be a good time to take a break.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, it is. Thank you. Mr. Bakrac, have you filed a

9 list of witnesses for this week?

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I do apologise.

11 We have a list of witnesses, and we have our first two witnesses for

12 today, and together with the Prosecution we are going to see when the

13 other witnesses will be called, but we have a list for the entire week,

14 and that is the list that we submitted to the registry on Friday.

15 JUDGE HUNT: That's all you need to do. All I wanted to know is

16 whether you had filed it. We haven't got it yet.

17 We'll adjourn now until 11.30.

18 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

20 JUDGE HUNT: The list, witnesses list was received down

21 in the registry at three minutes to 3.00 on Friday afternoon and just was

22 simply never delivered to the Chambers until this morning, so you needn't

23 worry, Mr. Bakrac, but something really will have to be done down in the

24 registry about this.

25 Now, you may proceed.

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

2 Q. Sir, before the break we were talking about your working hours,

3 and you said you worked at the factory until 1500 hours, and then you

4 remained for a while working on security. Until what time did you work at

5 the factory, and did you then transfer to another job? If so, when?

6 A. I said I worked at the factory until 3.00 p.m., and sometimes I

7 stayed at the factory as long as 6.00 p.m. It didn't happen every day,

8 but depending on the situation at the factory and the requirements,

9 because there were vehicles coming in to the factory unloading raw

10 materials and taking in furniture. I worked at the factory until

11 September 1993, I believe.

12 Q. So in September 1993, you were assigned to another job?

13 A. Yes. Starting with September 1993, I worked for perhaps as long

14 as a year as security officer guarding Muslim detainees in the Miljevina

15 mine.

16 Q. You said you were guarding Muslim detainees in the Miljevina

17 mine. Were they staying there, or were they taken to the mine every day

18 to work, and if so, who took them there? Who drove them?

19 A. Before the war we had one of our work sites in the Miljevina mine

20 where accommodation was available for detainees. In this case, Muslim

21 detainees, however, were driven there every day, every morning at 7.00

22 a.m., and they stayed there until 3.00 p.m. We drove them in our own

23 vehicles. I guarded them, together with my colleague, Predrag Stevanovic,

24 and I was the driver at the same time.

25 Q. Do you happen to know, sir, whether the KP Dom or, rather, a part

1 of it had been leased to the army, turned over to the army?

2 A. I do happen to know that. I heard that to meet the requirements

3 of the army, sometime in mid-May a part of the KP Dom was turned over to

4 the army.

5 Q. When we say to meet the requirements of the army, what exactly is

6 meant? What did the army need a part of the KP Dom for?

7 A. It was turned over in order to serve as accommodation for Muslim

8 detainees, and moreover, another part was used to accommodate convicts

9 serving their sentences from before the war, and I meant Serb convicts,

10 plus Serb offenders who had been taken into custody for shirking their

11 military service.

12 Q. You mentioned persons who had been serving their sentences from

13 before the war. Were those persons under the military command?

14 A. No, they were not. I said the military command had in their

15 purview Muslim detainees.

16 Q. Only them, or also the Serb offenders who were guilty of military

17 offences?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 A. Do you know by any chance whether Milorad Krnojelac had any

20 authority or any competence over that part of the prison which had been

21 turned over to the army?

22 A. Mr. Milorad Krnojelac was appointed temporary warden. His

23 competences regarding Muslim detainees were nil. It was my impression

24 that Milorad Krnojelac was engaged in affairs that had to do with

25 repairing the buildings of the KP Dom, in procurement of food and other

1 supplies, repair of bathrooms and toilets, and production at the furniture

2 factory, which means that he was mostly engaged to deal with economic

3 affairs.

4 Q. You mentioned production at the furniture factory. Did he have

5 any competences over the remaining part of the Drina Economic Unit?

6 A. The Drina Economic Unit comprised, in addition to the furniture

7 factory, a catering unit, a metalwork shop, and a farm with pigs and cows

8 and hens. All of this was in the purview of the director or manager.

9 Q. How do you know what the obligations or the competences of

10 Mr. Milorad Krnojelac were?

11 A. From conversations with Milorad Krnojelac somewhere in early May.

12 I couldn't remember exactly when. I went to tour my house in Partizanski

13 street and on that occasion I ran into Milorad Krnojelac. We said hello,

14 and we exchanged a few words about the repair of these houses, and he told

15 me that he was working at the KP Dom where he was appointed to take charge

16 of the Drina Economic Unit. Also while at the KP Dom, I could see myself

17 that Milorad Krnojelac was engaged in procurement and purchases, and that

18 he often travelled to Montenegro and Yugoslavia, driving there our

19 products to exchange them for food.

20 Q. Did you discuss amongst yourselves, perhaps, his role and his

21 position?

22 A. We who were on the staff would meet every day and talk, and I

23 heard from other employees that Milorad Krnojelac had been appointed

24 warden, but that he was engaged exclusively in procurement and in repairs

25 required at the KP Dom. His official position was to be in charge of the

1 Drina Economic Unit and to take care of repairs that were needed at the KP

2 Dom.

3 Q. These Serb convicts which had been there even before the war, were

4 they also under the authority of Milorad Krnojelac? Was he also in charge

5 of them?

6 A. The convicts who had been there before the war remained within his

7 purview, whereas Serb offenders who had been sent to the KP Dom for

8 military offences at the front line were, as word had it, under the

9 competence of Savo Todovic.

10 Q. You have just mentioned Savo Todovic, but before we start

11 discussing him, I would like to ask you whether those convicts who had

12 been there from before the war, were they under the control of the

13 Ministry of Justice, and did they remain even after the war broke out

14 under the control of the Ministry of Justice?

15 A. Certainly.

16 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, Mr. Bakrac, but who is the "they", "were

17 they" under the control? Do you mean the convicts or the officers? It's

18 not very clear from the transcript.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I think the transcript reflects that

20 my question referred to convicts who were serving their sentences,

21 according to valid judgments, final judgments.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Please tell me, sir, do you happen to know, since you said you

25 knew that a part of the KP Dom had been turned over to the military

1 command, was there a person who represented the military command and was

2 in charge of Muslim detainees and Serb offenders guilty of military

3 offences in the army of Republika Srpska, and if so, who was that person?

4 A. From talking with my colleagues and Muslim detainees at my

5 workplace at the factory, I found out that it was Savo Todovic.

6 Q. Do you know where Savo Todovic's office was?

7 A. Savo Todovic's office was on the second floor. When you emerge

8 from the staircase on the second floor, you go left, and his office was on

9 one end of the hallway opposite the warden's office. That was the

10 lawyer's office, and Savo Todovic occupied it.

11 Q. At the KP Dom, from the time when you came there until the new

12 warden Sekulovic arrived, was there a deputy warden?

13 A. Until warden Sekulovic arrived, there was no deputy warden, but

14 when Sekulovic arrived, Milutin Tijanic arrived as his deputy and Radojica

15 Tesevic came also as manager of the Drina Economic Unit.

16 Q. Thank you. You said that Mr. Milorad Krnojelac had told you about

17 his role there. Did you notice whether he had taken any steps in that

18 direction at the KP Dom?

19 A. Upon his arrival at the KP Dom, Mr. Milorad Krnojelac started

20 works required to repair the buildings, procure food, clothing, and

21 footwear. For the most part, he dealt exclusively with economic affairs.

22 Q. Did he work to restart the Drina Economic Unit, to put it back

23 into operation, and did it indeed start working again?

24 A. Yes. Certainly Milorad Krnojelac worked for restarting the Drina

25 Economic Unit, and I could see with my own eyes when working the furniture

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 factory that Milorad Krnojelac often came to the furniture factory, spoke

2 to the foremen, discussed with them issues related to production, and he

3 looked together with them for ways to increase the output of furniture so

4 that it could be exported and bartered for food and other supplies which

5 were in very short supply at the time.

6 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Krnojelac often travelled outside Foca, or

7 if not outside Foca, then outside the KP Dom in pursuit of these

8 activities?

9 A. I know that he travelled to Montenegro, that he travelled to

10 Yugoslavia. I also know that Mr. Milorad Krnojelac travelled across Foca

11 visiting other companies, looking for aid. I also know that he approached

12 the Red Cross and asked them for aid and assistance in procuring

13 detergents and toiletries and anything that could be obtained from other

14 companies. Wherever it could be got, Milorad Krnojelac went and asked for

15 help.

16 Q. Was Milorad Krnojelac your superior?

17 A. Mr. Milorad Krnojelac was not my superior. I had my own superior

18 in the Security Service with whom I contacted. That was Mitar Rasevic.

19 Q. In view of this certificate you have shown us and the fact that

20 you stated about going to the front line, were you under military

21 command?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was providing security for the KP Dom part of your wartime

24 assignment, just as your occasional tours on the front line?

25 A. Even in peacetime, all staff members, all employees anywhere had

1 the obligation to report to their employers in case of mobilisation, and

2 that was an obligation that we had to fulfil. We had to report.

3 Q. So your compulsory work order, just as your wartime assignment,

4 was part of your military duty and belonged within the framework of the

5 mobilisation that was announced; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, because at that moment, whoever failed to respond to

7 mobilisation call-ups, and report to their workplace, was subject to

8 detention by the police. The police went around and took such people into

9 custody.

10 Q. How often did you see Mr. Krnojelac at the KP Dom?

11 A. I have already stated that I used to see Milorad Krnojelac only at

12 the furniture factory. I never saw him in the compound, and I never saw

13 him entering any other building but the furniture factory. I apologise,

14 we did meet also at lunch or breakfast when we happened to take it at the

15 same time.

16 Q. You say breakfast and lunch, do you mean at the dining hall of the

17 KP Dom?

18 A. Yes. Yes, because we took our meals at the KP Dom at the same

19 canteen where detainees and prisoners had their meals, but we had separate

20 dining halls.

21 Q. Did you ever see Milorad Krnojelac entering the prisoners'

22 quarters where Muslim detainees were accommodated?

23 A. I have already said that I didn't. I never saw him anywhere

24 except at the dining hall when we had our meals at the same time and at

25 the furniture factory where he dropped in sometimes to talk to the

1 foremen.

2 Q. If you can remember, would you tell us, sir, when you did see him,

3 what was he wearing? Can you remember that?

4 A. During those first days whenever I saw Milorad, he was wearing

5 civilian clothes. Later I saw him on several occasions wearing a

6 combination of uniform and civilian clothing. In fact, that's what

7 everybody, all employees, wore. People wore what they had, plus what they

8 were issued, a combination of the two. But most of the time he wore

9 civilian clothing because he travelled. He travelled outside the town.

10 He travelled to Montenegro and Serbia, and he wore civilian clothes.

11 Q. When you saw him in military uniform, do you remember whether it

12 had any insignia or whether it showed rank in any way?

13 A. He had no insignia, no patches whatsoever. And the trousers were

14 olive-green/grey, and the shirt that he wore, they were ordinary trousers

15 and an ordinary shirt, but olive-green/grey.

16 Q. Did you notice Milorad Krnojelac carrying any weapons?

17 A. I never noticed that. I never noticed Milorad carrying any type

18 of weapon.

19 Q. You said a few minutes ago when I asked you that he was not your

20 superior. Did you ever see him issuing orders or something like that to

21 any of the guards?

22 A. I never saw him issuing orders to anyone, nor did I hear my

23 colleagues say that Milorad Krnojelac had ordered any such thing.

24 Q. Sir, you said that there were Muslim detainees there. Do you know

25 what is the largest number of Muslims who went through the KP Dom since

1 you were there practically all the time?

2 A. Well, it's been nine years now. It's hard to remember, but I

3 think that this number is between 500 and 550 detained Muslims, those who

4 went through the KP Dom.

5 Q. How come you know about that?

6 A. Well, let me tell you. As for me personally, I obtained most of

7 this information through these persons who worked in the furniture

8 factory. I also heard things from my colleagues who worked in buildings

9 where the evening roll call was made and where records were kept. This

10 was taken down in notebooks.

11 Q. You say that you got information from Muslim detainees. Were you

12 prohibited from communicating with Muslim detainees?

13 A. On the contrary. No one ever forbade anyone to communicate with a

14 Muslim detainee, although this person is of different ethnicity. I spent

15 quite a lot of time talking to them, working in the Miljevina mines and

16 the furniture factory. Whatever would happen to them, pleasant or

17 unpleasant, they were free to address me and we would resolve their

18 problems together.

19 Q. You say that you resolved problems together. Did anybody complain

20 to you about any problem?

21 A. While I worked at the factory, [redacted], Muratovic Sacir

22 and some others found me at the upholstery department and they asked me to

23 talk to them a bit. We went to the office. We talked, and they said to

24 me that they were being provoked by a convict called Djapic, an ethnic

25 Serb.

1 As a policeman with vast experience, and as a professional

2 policeman, I called in both and I said that this should never happen

3 again, precisely in connection with Djapic. And they were all witnesses

4 of that, and they can all testify to the effect that no such thing ever

5 happened again.

6 Q. You said Djapic. Was he a person who was serving his sentence

7 from before, or was this a person who was detained because of some

8 misdemeanour in the army of Republika Srpska?

9 A. Djapic was one of the persons who had been in prison from earlier

10 on. He worked in the furniture factory with the others. Among them were

11 a few other persons who were ethnic Serbs who worked together with these

12 Muslim detainees.

13 Q. This Djapic, was he convicted and sent there by a military court?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So he was not among the persons who were serving their prison

16 sentences from earlier on in respect of final verdicts that were passed?

17 A. At the beginning of the war, Djapic was brought in to custody by

18 the military court.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, this is where we're getting into that

20 rather hazy distinction about where the various Serb detainees were kept.

21 Now, I may be wrong, but I think this is the first time it's ever been

22 suggested that they were somehow working with the Muslim detainees. I

23 think it might be just as well if we had this one sorted out now.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That is the kind

25 of information that we received from this witness, and we wish to clarify

1 that point.

2 Q. So you said that there were six to eight Muslim detainees who

3 worked in the furniture factory. To the best of your recollection, were

4 there also Serb prisoners who were working there, and were there also

5 persons working there who had been serving their prison sentences there

6 from before in accordance with final verdicts?

7 A. There were persons of Muslim ethnicity who were working there. I

8 said that there were about six of them. And there were also three Serb

9 prisoners who were working there. Actually, I was in charge of all of

10 them. I can't remember the exact number, actually. There were about five

11 or six of them too.

12 Q. Tell me, let us distinguish between these five, six. So there

13 were five, six Serb prisoners. Were all of them prisoners who were in

14 detention because of violations committed in the army of Republika Srpska,

15 or were all of them convicts who were serving their prison sentences from

16 before, or was there a mixed composition in terms of these six who were

17 there, these six ethnic Serbs?

18 A. These were Serb convicts who were serving their prison sentences

19 from earlier on because it was not regular practice to send military

20 detainees who were brought into custody for a day or two or three to work

21 at the furniture factory.

22 Q. Thank you. You said that you resolved various problems. Was

23 there any other time when Muslim detainees complained to you of some other

24 problems?

25 A. After this intervention, they did not complain any more.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 Q. Did you notice Muslim detainees who had physical injuries on their

2 faces or on their bodies? Did you notice any such people at the KP Dom?

3 A. I never saw anyone with any kind of injury on their bodies.

4 Q. You said that you communicated with them and resolved various

5 problems as well. Did you suffer any consequences due to that, or did

6 guards who communicated with Muslim detainees suffer any consequences due

7 to that?

8 A. No one ever suffered any consequences nor was anyone ever

9 prohibited from speaking to them. I personally know that whenever I

10 could -- I mean, I was not a smoker. I did not smoke, but several times I

11 brought in cigarettes and I gave them to [redacted] who worked

12 before the war with me, also to [redacted]. I also gave some to

13 Seja Selimovic, the dentist on several occasions. Seja Selimovic, as a

14 matter of fact, was at that time doing some dental work for me repairing

15 some of my bad teeth.

16 Q. So guards were never punished for communicating with Muslim

17 detainees by being sent to the front line?

18 A. No. That is not true, that anyone was ever sent to the front,

19 because we were professionals, and we are supposed to communicate as much

20 as possible, and we do communicate with everyone who is at the KP Dom,

21 regardless of whether they were Serbs or Muslims. We never paid attention

22 to that.

23 Q. Did your superiors ever give you any orders of instructions to the

24 effect that you should mistreat Muslim detainees in any way or something

25 like that?

1 A. I never received such orders. And believe me, if someone were to

2 order me to do that, I would never do any such thing.

3 Q. Did you notice any of your colleagues doing that?

4 A. Not in my shift, and I don't know. I did not hear of anyone

5 having done that.

6 Q. Mr. Matovic, tell me, please, you mentioned something to this

7 effect: Did you also take your meals at the KP Dom?

8 A. Yes, yes. That is correct. Together with the others, I took my

9 meals at the KP Dom. That was the kitchen facility there that had two

10 dining halls. We ate from the same cauldron, from the same kitchen.

11 Muslims ate in one dining hall, and we, the employees, ate in the other

12 one.

13 Q. Was there any difference in terms of food, first of all between

14 the Muslim detainees and prisoners of Serb ethnicity, and also between the

15 detainees and the employees of the KP Dom?

16 A. There was never any difference. All the food that was prepared

17 was prepared for all equally and in the same cauldron.

18 Q. Were there always three meals per day?

19 A. All of those who did not work had three meals. Persons who were

20 engaged in any kind of additional work or those who were involved in

21 harder work got a fourth meal, the so-called snack.

22 Q. Do you know what the situation in the town of Foca itself was

23 like? Was it better than in the KP Dom?

24 A. There was a state of war. There wasn't enough food anywhere.

25 Believe me, at home I did not eat food that was any better. I was at the

1 front line too, and I can state with full responsibility that the food I

2 ate at the front line was much worse than the food that was eaten by the

3 prisoners, detainees, and employees at the KP Dom.

4 As far as quality is concerned, it was no worse. And even in

5 terms of quantity, there was more than what I got at the front line.

6 Q. You say in terms of quantity. Was there any food that was left

7 over at the KP Dom, and were these leftovers thrown away?

8 A. Food was never thrown away. Even if there was some leftover food,

9 then second helpings were given, that is to say that we gave it to those

10 who wanted it.

11 Q. Was food given to all in the same portions, or was there a

12 distinction between Serb prisoners, Muslim detainees, and you, the

13 employees?

14 A. There was no distinction whatsoever as far as the portions were

15 concerned. We all used the same portions; the Serbs and the Muslims, the

16 prisoners, and the employees. There were these plastic dishes, perhaps

17 about one litre containers, in different colours, blue, red, green, and

18 then perhaps after a while, since there was a shortage of such dishes,

19 additional dishes were brought in; those made of stainless steel. These

20 stainless steel dishes that were brought in subsequently were actually for

21 the Sokolac hospital. They had been bought before the war. So since

22 there was a shortage of dishes, we started using these as well.

23 Q. What about these dishes? You said that they were made of plastic

24 and also of stainless steel. Were they smaller than regular plates in

25 which cooked food is served?

1 A. They were not smaller. And also, the ladles used for spooning out

2 food into these plastic dishes were used as a rule, and these ladles were

3 half-litre ladles, and they were quite sufficient.

4 Q. Did you notice that Muslim detainees were obviously underfed?

5 A. When I observed them, you couldn't put it that way. Possibly they

6 had lost some weight, a kilo or two, up to five kilograms, but certainly

7 not more than that.

8 Q. In view of the war situation and everything else, did you lose

9 weight at that time too?

10 A. Since I found out that the apartment that I lived in had burned

11 down, and when I returned to town, I had no other dwelling, the municipal

12 authorities provided lodging for me at the Zelengora Hotel. At the Hotel

13 Zelengora I spent about three months, together with Bozo Drakul and

14 Mr. Milorad Krnojelac. And I claim with full responsibility that during

15 three months, I lost weight. I had weighed 84 kilograms, and I went down

16 to 70 kilograms.

17 Q. You mentioned that you lived at the Zelengora Hotel together with

18 Bozo Drakul and Milorad Krnojelac. What does "together" mean? Together

19 in the same room, or did you get separate rooms, and why did they live

20 there too? Could you explain that to us?

21 A. Of course, I'll explain gladly. Bozo Drakul's house burned down.

22 My apartment burned down. Mr. Krnojelac' house had burned down. We were

23 accommodated at the Zelengora Hotel, but not in the same room, in

24 different rooms; that is to say, that we all had separate rooms. As a

25 matter of fact, because I had a family of four, I got two rooms. So I

1 stayed in one room with my wife, and in the other room were my little

2 girls. So it was not possible for us to stay all together.

3 Q. Was the Zelengora Hotel at that time used for putting up refugees

4 and persons who had remained homeless?

5 A. Yes. That is precisely where people who had nowhere to go were

6 put up.

7 Q. Sir, a few minutes ago we talked about food at the KP Dom. Can

8 you tell us whether Muslim detainees had the possibility to wash and bathe

9 at the KP Dom?

10 A. Since there was a war going on, since the boiler room was

11 destroyed, since there was no heating, and as soon as there is no heating

12 it was not possible for us to have hot water, either, one could not say

13 that the place was impeccably clean, but in front of the kitchen we

14 put two cauldrons. In one cauldron food was prepared, and in the other

15 cauldron there was hot water. The detained Muslims, the convicts, the

16 detainees could take as much water as they wanted. These cauldrons

17 contained about 200 litres of water. As a matter of fact, we insisted

18 that those who did not want to take baths should come and take water.

19 Through their colleagues, other detainees, we asked them to make them

20 somehow come and take a bath.

21 Q. Did these Muslim detainees have water, running water in their

22 rooms? Not hot water, but running water.

23 A. Every room had running water, and not only one basin, but

24 several. There would be several faucets there, five to six, as a matter

25 of fact.

1 Q. You said that those who did not take care of their own hygiene

2 were made to take baths. Why?

3 A. Well, you know, we had objections, complaints, from detainees and

4 prisoners who were staying in these rooms, that these persons should also

5 wash and bathe, because it was possible to get some kind of disease,

6 illness, or perhaps lice. So we insisted, but these individuals from

7 rooms insisted even more that these other people should be made to wash

8 and bathe.

9 Q. Did these prisoners have soap and things like that, other means of

10 hygiene?

11 A. At the beginning, every detainee, prisoner, convict could get one

12 soap per week, one luxury soap and one Kabas soap, that is to say, laundry

13 soap. Later on, after a while, when certain quantities of detergent were

14 obtained, then detergent was issued also.

15 Q. You said that water was heated and that they could take water from

16 there. Weren't these people forbidden to take water from there?

17 A. On the contrary. My colleagues who worked in the compound at the

18 KP Dom and the building, they made people take water so that it could be

19 used for doing the laundry and also for bathing.

20 Q. Do you know whether any of the Muslim detainees were punished

21 because they took water to bathe? Were they punished by being sent to

22 solitary confinement or something like that?

23 A. I don't know about that. I never heard of any such thing having

24 happened.

25 Q. Did Muslim detainees enjoy any medical assistance while at the KP

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 Dom?

2 A. Everyone at the KP Dom, including Muslim detainees, had medical

3 care. Before the war we were an establishment that comprised a hospital

4 for treatment of people who suffered from substance abuse, drug addicts

5 and alcoholics, and this hospital was equipped with a better pharmacy than

6 the one in town.

7 During the war, we had a nurse, a male nurse, Gojko Jokanovic, who

8 took care of convicts and detainees, and every day they were able to apply

9 for medical exams and therapy. In the beginning, a doctor also came. I

10 don't know if I will be able to remember his name now, I think is was Cedo

11 Dragevic, and there was a dentist, Boban Kunarac. So they had access to

12 whatever they needed as far as our hospital is concerned, and they had

13 medical care.

14 Q. You mentioned Dr. Cedo Dragevic. Do you know for how long he

15 visited the KP Dom to provide medical care?

16 A. I can remember the exact date -- sorry, I can't remember the exact

17 date. Cedo Dragevic could have worked there until August or September

18 1992.

19 Q. Do you know why he stopped working?

20 A. I don't know the real reason. I couldn't possible know it, but I

21 can guess because the war was raging at the time, and anyone who had a

22 family and could afford it left that territory.

23 I think he had family outside the country, and I think he left for

24 fear of being sent to the front line.

25 Q. Do you mean to say that doctors too had to go to the front

1 line?

2 A. Certainly. Nobody was immune to that.

3 Q. Do you know whether this Dr. Dragevic ever came back to Foca from

4 Yugoslavia?

5 A. I didn't see him, and I never heard of his coming back.

6 Q. After Dr. Dragevic, did other doctors come to the KP Dom as

7 visiting doctors to provide medical care?

8 A. Dr. Vladicic came and also Dr. -- unfortunately I can't remember

9 his name at the moment, but I know that there were two visiting doctors.

10 Q. You say there were two visiting doctors at all times. Did they

11 come together or did they alternate?

12 A. They alternated. They came on Tuesdays and Thursdays. It was

13 sort of an established practice from before the war, and it continued

14 after the war broke out, and even after the war ended. So it -- on

15 Tuesdays and Thursdays a doctor would always come.

16 Q. Did they continue to come even after the war was over, after the

17 Dayton Accords were signed?

18 A. They continued to come until 1999. After 1999, the KP Dom

19 employed a staff doctor.

20 Q. You also mentioned a dentist, and you said during your testimony

21 that Seja Selimovic provided you with dental care. And you mentioned a

22 dentist by the name of Boban Kunarac who was a visiting dentist. Until

23 what time did he come to the KP Dom?

24 A. Boban Kunarac, he was there until end of May or maybe early June.

25 I can't remember for sure. But I know, in any case, that it was Seja

1 Selimovic who took over at the dentist's office after that, and he did

2 dental work on prisoners, detainees, and staff members as required.

3 Q. You said that Dr. Seja Selimovic worked there. Was he detained at

4 the KP Dom in that period?

5 A. Yes. Seja Selimovic was there, too, as one of the detained

6 Muslims. But regardless of all that, considering that he had worked with

7 us before the war, he enjoyed our trust and confidence, and we entrusted

8 him with the work of the dental office.

9 Q. You mentioned the previous dentist, and you said his name was

10 Boban Kunarac. Are you sure that Kunarac was his family name?

11 A. I think so. I think that was his name, Boban Kunarac.

12 Q. Do you know of a dentist by the name of Boban Kostovic?

13 A. Oh, yes. I'm sorry, it was indeed Boban Kostovic. Boban Kunarac

14 was another employee, a rehabilitation officer at the KP Dom. I confused

15 the two of them.

16 Q. Yes, yes. I was interested in finding out whether there were

17 perhaps two dentists.

18 A. No, no. The dentist's name was Kostovic.

19 Q. Were there any grave cases of illness among detainees and were

20 such persons taken to the hospital, do you remember?

21 A. There were such cases. I remember Sefko Kubat being taken to the

22 hospital where he was admitted for treatment for about ten days or so. He

23 was treated at our town hospital.

24 Q. You said that the male nurse, Gojko Jokanovic, administered

25 therapy. Did he have access to medicines?

1 A. Gojko Jokanovic worked there. He had the keys to the pharmacy,

2 and he had access. He had all the keys to the pharmacy.

3 Q. Did it ever happen that detainees who worked at the factory went

4 to -- for a medical examination and came back? Do you remember any such

5 cases?

6 A. You know, whoever wanted to be seen by a doctor would report to

7 the guard at the building because the guard at the building would inform

8 the prisoners that the doctor was coming, and he would make lists of those

9 prisoners who wanted to be seen by a doctor. And in the same way, I would

10 be informed that the doctor had come. I would take a tour of the

11 furniture factory, I would tell everyone that a doctor was available, and

12 did anyone want to go and be seen by the doctor.

13 Q. Can you remember out of those people who worked at the factory who

14 wanted to be seen by a doctor?

15 A. [redacted], Dzanatovic [phoen], and out of that detail of six men, I

16 think four were certainly seen by a doctor at one time or another.

17 Q. You told us the year when you began to work at the KP Dom, and you

18 told us how long you stayed there. You know very well the capacities of

19 the KP Dom. Could you tell us, was the KP Dom ever overcrowded during the

20 period when you worked there?

21 A. I have worked at the KP Dom since 1977. The KP Dom can

22 accommodate around 1.000, even over 1.000, detainees, and it is certain

23 that every detainee there had proper accommodation. Even if during a

24 certain period not everyone had their own bed, they certainly had their

25 own mattress.

1 At one time, there was even a surplus of beds because the number

2 of detainees dropped, and the extra beds were taken up to the attic until

3 the rooms were repaired after being damaged, and in that time, the

4 prisoners had mattresses.

5 Q. Do you know whether they had any blankets or covers?

6 A. Every one of them had two blankets, at least two blankets. Some

7 of the had more.

8 Q. Do you know, because you told us how many people worked at the

9 furniture factory, do you know by any chance the total number of Muslim

10 detainees who went out to work?

11 A. I can't tell you exactly, but if there were about six to eight at

12 the furniture factory and some in the metalwork shop, then there was a

13 total of about 30 men who worked outside.

14 Q. You said that beginning with September 1993, you drove detainees

15 to the Miljevina mine. Can you remember their number?

16 A. I believe it was from 15 to 18 detainees.

17 Q. And do you know whether some Muslim detainees did any work on

18 Milorad Krnojelac's house?

19 A. I know that some did, and I know that on several occasions I drove

20 those detainees to Milorad Krnojelac's house. And I took also food with

21 me, although they told me that they felt no shortage of food or drink

22 while there because Mrs. Krnojelac prepared them a meal every day in

23 addition to what we had brought with us, made them coffee, and so on, and

24 cigarettes as well. A detainee by the name of Dzemo or Dzemal told me

25 about this personally. He worked on that house.

1 Q. The transcript says Dzemo or Dzemal. Could you repeat the name of

2 that prisoner who told you that? Could you tell us who it was?

3 A. You mean the person I've just mentioned? I said Dzemo, Dzemal.

4 Telo, Mustafa, T-e-l-o.

5 Q. Do you mean to say a person named Dzemal or Dzemo and Mustafa?

6 A. Yes. There were three or four of them. I don't know exactly. It

7 was Mustafa Telo and this other one, Dzemal or Dzemo.

8 Q. You said you drove them. Did you stay there for the entire

9 duration of their workday?

10 A. I would just take them there and I would leave them alone to work

11 on the house, and one of Mr. Krnojelac's sons stayed there with them. So

12 there was no security by the guards of the KP Dom.

13 Q. You said that they were happy with the food. Did they complain

14 about anything else, about the treatment, perhaps, on the part of the

15 family?

16 A. No. I didn't hear anything of the kind. I heard them saying that

17 they were very happy with the food and coffee and cigarettes they got from

18 Mrs. Krnojelac.

19 Q. Do you know how it came about that they worked on the house of

20 Milorad Krnojelac?

21 A. I think that the Crisis Staff and the municipal authorities had

22 issued an order to the effect that detained persons be used to carry out

23 works on the repair of damaged houses.

24 Q. We discussed at some length the work in the Miljevina mine and at

25 the furniture factory. Did any of the Muslim detainees ever complain to

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 you about being forced to work?

2 A. No. I never heard any complaints of that kind, even when I was

3 driving detainees to Miljevina. They even asked not to be left out of

4 that work detail because whenever they went to work in Miljevina, they got

5 an extra large meal. They got cigarettes. And they volunteered to go

6 there to work.

7 Q. Do you happen to know, sir, whether the guards at the KP Dom ever

8 interrogated detainees, Muslim detainees or others?

9 A. I never heard about anything of the sort, and I know that we, the

10 guards and the police, were never allowed before, during, or after the war

11 to conduct interrogations of detained persons.

12 Q. Do you know, sir, whether Muslim detainees had the possibility to

13 take walks in the compound or the yard of the compound?

14 A. They had walks. And since I was working at the furniture factory

15 and I had a good view of the entire courtyard, I could see that detainees

16 were taken out for walks room by room. I cannot say exactly how long the

17 walks were, but they were certainly not shorter than 20 or 30 minutes.

18 Every room had a walk like that.

19 Q. Considering that you have worked at the KP Dom for quite a long

20 time, since before the war, and you work there still, I would like to ask

21 your assistance in showing you a drawing of the KP Dom and some

22 photographs so that you can show us the location of various rooms. First

23 of all, I would like to show you drawing C-1 which is Defence Exhibit ID

24 D1 from the photo documentation.

25 Sir, would you please take a look at this drawing and tell me

1 which building is depicted here.

2 A. This is a drawing of our administrative building, more precisely,

3 it's the ground floor.

4 Q. Could you please show me, but on the ELMO not on the monitor, the

5 entrance to the administrative building.

6 A. [Indicates].

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness is

8 showing with his pointer to the left of the encircled number 5 as the

9 entrance to the administrative building.

10 A. Here we have an iron gate.

11 Q. Just a moment. I will ask you questions and you will please reply

12 to them.

13 Tell me, where is the entrance to the compound of the KP Dom, and

14 where is the metal gate; that is, the entrance to the courtyard or the

15 compound of the KP Dom? I'm saying the entrance to the courtyard.

16 A. Here. Or just a second.

17 Q. Perhaps we can put the picture closer or focus on it, zoom it.

18 A. The entrance is here into the courtyard, into the compound.

19 Q. Is that the door facing the KP Dom, or is it on the side?

20 A. That is -- this is a door which is on one side, a lateral door.

21 Here is the gate through which you go in, and then on the right-hand side

22 you enter the compound.

23 Q. You say --

24 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest you show him after we resume the

25 photograph because he may not understand that the drawing between the

1 numbers 5 and 6 happens to be an outside wall. And it's only going to get

2 us further confused if you don't show him how this fits into the outside

3 of the building.

4 We will resume again at 2.30.

5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 --- On resuming at 2.32 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would

4 kindly ask the usher to show the witness photograph A31, and put it on the

5 ELMO, please. First of all I would like to explain to the Honourable

6 Trial Chamber that the Defence has completed its photo documents, and this

7 morning before trial started we handed them in. We marked them as well.

8 So could the lower photograph marked as A31 be shown first,

9 please.

10 A. This is the administration building, and this picture was taken

11 from the compound. This is the entrance door leading to the gate number

12 one, and this is a window that is at this gate number one.

13 Q. Just a minute, please, sir. Could you just wait for a second and

14 I'll put questions to you.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] May the record show that the witness

16 pointed out the metal door, the first one on the photograph viewed from

17 the left towards the right, this being the metal door through which one

18 entered from the compound of the KP Dom. Then the witness indicated

19 the first window viewed from the left to the right.

20 Q. You pointed at this first window viewed from the left. Can you

21 tell us what is behind this window?

22 A. This is a room where the guard on duty at gate number 1 would

23 stand guard duty; that is to say, the entrance into the KP Dom. That is

24 the guard at the gate who is on guard here, and at the entrance into the

25 compound of the KP Dom.

1 Q. Is that the room from which the compound of the KP Dom is entered?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Please be so kind as to tell us -- tell us what is behind the

4 second window viewed from the left?

5 A. The next window is this window with bars. That is the one that is

6 at the staircase that leads upstairs in the administration building.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is indicating the second

8 window viewed from the left on this photograph.

9 Q. Please be so kind as to tell me what is behind the third window?

10 A. Behind the third window is the toilet. It's this window here.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is indicating the third

12 window viewed from left to right on this photograph.

13 Q. Please be so kind as to tell us what is behind the fourth window.

14 A. The fourth window is the generator station, the office here, half

15 of this office of the fire fighting officer. And it divides the window

16 into a half. In front of these offices is a hall. There's a hall in

17 front of both of these offices, that is.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is indicating the fourth

19 window viewed from the left.

20 Q. Excuse me, you said that these were two rooms that actually shared

21 this window, so to speak. Can you tell me how big the generator room is

22 approximately?

23 A. I think it's about two metres by a metre point ten, something like

24 that. Also, the next office where the fire fighting officer is, it's

25 about the same size. That is to say, that from the hall there are doors

1 leading into these two offices.

2 Q. The fifth window viewed from the left, what is behind that window?

3 A. That is the switchboard.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is indicating the fifth

5 window viewed from the left.

6 Q. What is behind the sixth window?

7 A. Behind the sixth window is the archives; that is to say, where

8 there are files that are no longer used. That is behind these rooms. You

9 asked me about the sixth window; is that right?

10 Q. Yes, the sixth one from the left.

11 A. There is an office before this one. Before this office is an

12 office of the head of the metal plant. That is an office about three and

13 a half by three.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is indicating the sixth

15 window viewed from the left.

16 Q. Tell me about the last window, the seventh window, what is behind

17 it?

18 A. The archives, the archives. Discarded archives of the bookkeeping

19 and commercial departments.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the

22 witness photographs MFI7. That is how we marked this one photograph,

23 actually when there was another witness in here, and also A8 and A9,

24 please.

25 Q. Please be so kind as to look at the lower photograph, A9, and tell

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 us which room this is.

2 A. This room is the room where the generators, the batteries are, as

3 I said a few minutes ago, the one that is part of the office where the

4 fire fighting officer is. These two offices are partitioned.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please now show the

6 witness the photograph he is holding in his hand, MF7.

7 A. Yes, yes. This room. So there's just this wall that partitions

8 them off. This is the room where the fire fighting officer was before the

9 war. These offices are, as you can see for yourselves, about one and a

10 half metres by two, and there was a cupboard there, a table, and a

11 radiator, and a chair.

12 Q. How many people could be in that room, to the best of your

13 assessment, at one point in time?

14 A. A man worked in that office. He weighed about 80 or 90 kilograms,

15 and it was too small for him. Only one man was there.

16 Q. I would now like to ask you to look at photograph A8. Tell me,

17 please, can you recognise the room on this photograph?

18 A. This is the room that belonged to the switchboard. There was a

19 desk here, a table, a chair. And over here, you can see that it's not in

20 this picture, there is a double cupboard, one for changing clothes,

21 actually, and one with installations, a metre by a metre and a half or

22 perhaps 1.50 or 1.60 metres tall. So it's about three and a half by three

23 and a half or perhaps four metres.

24 Q. Did this room have direct access to the hall of the administration

25 building, or did it lead to some other hall?

1 A. This room faced a smaller hall that was in front of this station,

2 and that office of the fire fighting officer; That is to say, that from

3 this hall you would enter the big hall, the main hall. So there was a

4 smaller hall and then from there you got into the big hall.

5 Q. Is this door opposite this window, or is that door on the side

6 wall, the door through which you get into this room or out of the room?

7 A. Viewed from the window they are on the right-hand side, and they

8 are straight ahead.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to show

11 the witness photographs A5, A6, and A7, please. A5, please.

12 Q. Can you recognise the room here?

13 A. This is the entrance from the duty officer's room facing the

14 staircase that goes upstairs. That is the rehabilitation service

15 building, so that is opposite the duty officer's room. Or rather, this is

16 the hall opposite the duty officer's room.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the

18 witness photographs A6 and A7.

19 Q. Can you recognise these photographs?

20 A. The toilet, the toilet -- or actually, this is a bathroom where

21 there is a boiler and then opposite it is the toilet. So that is to say

22 that there are two doors. How should I put this? The men's toilet and a

23 bathroom or, rather, for those persons who could not go home after work,

24 and then we made it possible for them to take a bath there. A bathroom.

25 Q. Is that the room that you marked on the first photograph as being

1 behind the third window?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please --

5 A. This office, A7, this is what I talked about. This is still an

6 office or, rather, it's the same toilet that -- toilet, and the door

7 leading to the bathroom.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the

10 witness the following photographs.

11 Q. First photograph A15, does this photograph look familiar to you

12 or, rather, does this look familiar to you, what is on this photograph?

13 A. These are the rooms, the dormitories where the convicts were.

14 This is Room 20.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please now show the

16 lower photograph, A16.

17 A. The entrance into the dining hall, the cinema.

18 Q. No, sir. Just tell me, do you know where this picture was taken

19 from?

20 A. This picture was taken from in front of the convicts' building,

21 from the compound.

22 Q. Do you know from which room, from which floor?

23 A. I think it could have been taken from Room 20.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Are you really going to get anything from a

25 witness who can only guess at this? I thought you were going to call your

1 photographer at some stage to tell us directly from which windows they

2 were taken.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence tried;

4 However, the photographer doesn't want to come and testify. I don't know

5 what his reasons are, but that is the only photographer who works for the

6 KP Dom anyway. He takes photographs of new persons there, and that was

7 the only photographer from Foca who didn't want to come, and we wanted to

8 introduce these photographs, these documents, through him, but he wouldn't

9 come.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Was there somebody with him at the time the

11 photographs were taken telling him what to take?

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Dundjer was with him

13 on the ground floor, and then he told him which rooms he should take

14 photographs from, and then he went to these rooms and took photographs

15 from those rooms. However, I think that the Prosecution has similar

16 photographs too. If the Prosecution doesn't mind, we can ask through

17 this witness. If not ...

18 JUDGE HUNT: If you can't call the photographer, then you have to

19 do your best with this witness. I was only trying to save time, but you

20 better proceed as you can, Mr. Bakrac.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It would be much

22 easier for me too if we did it through the photographer, but simply he

23 was not interested in coming to testify. So I'll try through this witness

24 who has been in the KP Dom for many years and is still in the KP Dom, so I

25 thought that we could clarify matters through him.

1 Could we please have the next photograph.

2 A. May I please explain a bit more concerning this photograph? As

3 for the building, I know exactly every window, every window, every --

4 Q. Sir, sir, we know exactly what we are interested in concerning

5 these photographs, so please don't give us any other explanations. I'll

6 ask you. Do you know whether the photographer Ivanovic came to the KP

7 Dom, came and took pictures in the KP Dom?

8 A. I know that he came and took pictures, and until the present day

9 he has been coming and taking pictures, every convict who comes to serve a

10 sentence there, he comes and takes his photograph for the files.

11 Q. Could you please be so kind as to look at the next photograph.

12 A. This one you mean?

13 Q. No, not that one, the next one. Do you know -- can you tell us

14 where this photograph was taken from?

15 A. It was taken from the compound, from in front of the

16 administration building.

17 Q. Do you know from which room it could have been taken? If you're

18 not sure, we'll move on to the next photograph. We don't want to waste

19 any time, of course.

20 The lower photograph, please. Are you familiar with this

21 photograph?

22 A. This is number 23 in building number 1.

23 Q. Is this a room on the top floor of that building?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

1 photograph A18 -- oh, sorry, A20, I'm sorry.

2 Q. Can you recognise this? Can you tell where this photograph was

3 taken from?

4 A. I think this photograph was taken from Room 23, precisely.

5 Q. Is that the highest point from which you can see across the

6 administration building from the prisoners' quarters?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have submitted a few

10 more photographs, but I think that this one is relevant, so we don't need

11 to waste time. We have photographs from the health clinic too, but I

12 think that as far as Room 23 is concerned, this would be it. I do

13 apologise. Perhaps the next two photographs as well. Let's try to

14 identify them too, if possible.

15 Q. Can you tell from which room this photograph was taken?

16 A. This was taken from building number 2, the hospital.

17 Q. Is this also the top floor?

18 A. Yes, in that building, the highest floor in that building.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would just like to ask the usher to

21 show a few more photographs to the witness. A32, please.

22 Q. Can you recognise this? What is this in this photograph?

23 A. This is a room, this is the living-room, the living area where

24 these benches and tables are, and here we can see Room 1 and Room 2, and

25 opposite here is Room 3 and Room 4, these rooms being dormitories. So

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 these other two rooms are not in the photograph.

2 Q. These four dormitory rooms and this living area, do they all

3 comprise one room?

4 A. Also the toilet, the bathroom, and the anteroom, and also the area

5 where footwear is left, all of that comprises one room, an entire entity.

6 Q. Could you please give us an example of a room that looks that way

7 in the KP Dom?

8 A. All the rooms are based on that principle. Every room has four

9 dormitory rooms, a living area, and a hall, and then from the hall you

10 enter the toilet and the washroom.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the next

12 photograph.

13 Q. This is photograph A33. Can you recognise this room?

14 A. Both rooms are the censorship rooms where visits take place. We

15 can see that in the censorship room there is a table, one table, and then

16 another table, and then here there is a cupboard for files, and then also

17 there is a device for checking things and trunks.

18 Q. Sir, when you said both rooms, two rooms, did you mean both

19 photographs? I mean, is this one and the same room?

20 A. Yes, yes, the same photograph -- the same room, I mean, but two

21 different photographs.

22 Q. Can you tell us, viewed from the entrance into the administration

23 building into the KP Dom, this main entrance, where is this room?

24 A. Viewed from the entrance into the KP Dom, this room is on the

25 left-hand side of the hall, on the left side of the hall facing the

1 compound, towards the compound.

2 Q. You say on the left-hand side of the hall. Which hall? There is

3 a hall on the left and also the hall on the right.

4 A. If we enter from the outside, this is on the right-hand side. If

5 we are looking at the door, then it's on the right-hand side, so then we

6 could say that this censorship room is on the right-hand side. That is

7 towards the building where the warden and the deputy warden are, so it's

8 that side.

9 MR. BAKRAC: I would like to ask for Prosecution Exhibit P6/1.

10 Could that please be shown to the witness. It's the floor plan, P6/1.

11 Perhaps the Prosecutors have it. I think that our colleague has already

12 found a copy.

13 Q. This here is the floor plan. Can you identify here where this

14 room, the censorship room, is located?

15 A. This is the entrance from the main gate, the entrance from

16 outside.

17 Q. Just a moment, please.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is showing the main

19 entrance to the KP Dom.

20 A. If you go to the right, this first office from the hallway was

21 here on the left.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is showing the hallway on

23 the right-hand side, and the first room on the left where it says

24 "office."

25 Thank you. We won't be needing the floor plan any more.

1 Q. Can you tell us, in 1992 and 1993, did this office look the same

2 as shown here on the picture?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You say it's the censorship room. In 1992 and 1993, was there a

5 cafeteria there?

6 A. In the early days, yes. Coffee was made there because the

7 cafeteria in the administration building didn't work, so we, the

8 employees, made coffee and tea there in the first few days, and then we

9 restored the cafeteria between the first and the second floor where the

10 wife of my colleague, Mr. Milic, worked.

11 Q. You say you made coffee and tea. Did you drink them there or did

12 you take them to your offices?

13 A. We just made them there, and we couldn't have it there because

14 there was no room, so we took -- took it to our offices because this

15 stove, which was put in there before the Olympic Games, was very large,

16 and then in addition to that there was a table and a cupboard and there

17 was really no room to sit down and have coffee.

18 Q. If you -- if I understood you correctly, you said Balto Blok.

19 Did you mean this x-ray machine shown in the photograph.

20 A. Yes. That's the x-ray device that we received, that we got after

21 the Olympic Games in Sarajevo in 1984.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can I please ask the usher to show

24 the witness the next photograph.

25 Q. Please be so kind as to tell us whether you recognise what is on

1 this photograph.

2 A. This door here leads to the warden's office and the deputy

3 warden's office. This is the office of the technical director, behind

4 this door here. There is another hallway several metres long leading to

5 the door of the secretary's office, and behind the secretary's office, if

6 you go left, you enter the warden's office, and if you go right, you enter

7 the deputy warden's office.

8 Q. On this photograph do you see the staircase?

9 A. Here, here is the staircase.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is pointing out the

11 staircase in the middle of the photograph.

12 Could the witness please be shown photograph 36.

13 A. This is the same floor. Here, I think you can't see it very well,

14 but here is the staircase. Here is the technical director's office, and

15 then four or five offices before the lawyer's office, and the

16 lawyer's secretary's office. This door here belongs to the lawyer's

17 office, just opposite the warden's office.

18 Q. So if I understood you correctly, the staircase is in the

19 middle of this hallway and from the staircase there are offices both left

20 and right?

21 A. That's correct. If you go left, you go towards the lawyer's

22 office, if you go to the right, you go towards the warden's office.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show this

24 witness photographs 39 and 40.

25 A. This is the cafeteria in the administration building which is

1 located in the stairwell between the first and the second floor.

2 Q. And the next photograph, A40?

3 A. The same.

4 Q. Is this the room which you say was restored soon after you

5 arrived, that you had your coffee there?

6 A. Yes. You can see two or three tables here. There is a small bar,

7 and in 1992 after the first ten days when we made our coffee downstairs,

8 we started making it and having it here, which we do to the present day.

9 Q. And just a moment.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show us the

11 floor plan, Prosecution Exhibit 6/1.

12 Q. Would you please show us on this floor plan the location of this

13 restaurant or cafeteria where you have coffee which you have just shown us

14 on the photograph?

15 A. Let me count. This is the staircase, so emerging from the

16 staircase you go this way, so it's here, somewhere here in the middle of

17 this building.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is showing with his

19 pointer the middle of the administration building; namely, the part of the

20 building facing the compound of the KP Dom, and where it says

21 "photographer."

22 A. "Photographer", the photographer is on the ground floor and the

23 cafeteria is upstairs.

24 Q. Could you tell me one more thing --

25 JUDGE HUNT: Just before you do, Mr. Bakrac. When the witness was

1 pointing, at the time he was waving the pointer around quite considerably.

2 He actually came down to the point that you nominated, but considerably, I

3 think, after he had said it, at least in B/C/S. I think, if I may say so,

4 you better get that one done a little bit more carefully, if it's

5 important, have the witness fix the pointer on the drawing so that

6 we all know what it is he's saying at the time he's pointing. That's the

7 trouble we've been having with the translation throughout.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Sir, you have had this -- please wait. Tell me, can you show us

10 on this floor plan exactly where this cafeteria which you showed us

11 earlier on the photograph was, and please put your pointer there and leave

12 it there for a while.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is showing a part of the

14 administration building which leads into the compound of the KP Dom and

15 which is marked "photographer."

16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Could you please tell me also, is this staircase shown on the

19 right-hand side drawn accurately?

20 A. I don't think so. I think it should be further down to the left

21 because this is where the cinema hall should be.

22 Q. And how about the staircase leading from the first to the second

23 floor, is it in the middle of the building?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] We won't need the usher's assistance

2 or the ELMO any more.

3 The Defence would like to suggest, and we hope the Prosecution

4 doesn't mind, that the photo documents ID D1 be admitted into evidence. I

5 have already expressed my regret with the fact that we haven't been able

6 to bring the photographer.

7 MS. KUO: The Prosecution has no objection, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then, the photographs will be Exhibit D1. What

9 about the ones that you've added, though, Mr. Bakrac? It now goes

10 up to A39.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Up to A40, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, yes, you're right, A40. And then there's

13 another one that you've given us this afternoon which is presently marked

14 for identification 7.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] That is the photograph which we

16 showed earlier on the original, and we were advised by the registry that

17 it was marked MFI7. That's a photograph showing an office with a

18 photograph of former President Tito inside.

19 JUDGE HUNT: But you are tendering that as well.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE HUNT: That will be Exhibit D152. Just one moment.

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, I'm very grateful to the Court deputy. Those

24 documents which were marked for identification as an ID D number, you

25 remember we found we had already marked a number of exhibits with that

1 number, and they became D4/1, D4/1, and D4/2, so the preferable way of

2 dealing with this one, which is presently ID D1, is to make it Exhibit

3 D4/3, and then the document which is marked for identification 7 will be

4 Exhibit D4/4. After that, I hope that the numbers will run consecutively

5 from where we're up to in the list, which is 152.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but you

7 asked me about A, is it up to A40, and up to B11 and C1, I have actually

8 tendered the entire photo documentation.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, A40, B11, and C1, that was all part of the

10 document which was ID D1, and that has now become Exhibit D4/3 and MFI7

11 has become Exhibit D4/4.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

13 Q. Sir, did you know Mr. Milorad Krnojelac from before?

14 A. I have known Mr. Milorad Krnojelac since 1980 or 1981 when we

15 resided in the same street.

16 Q. Do you know what kind of reputation he had, what people thought of

17 him? Did he have a nationalistic bias?

18 A. As far as I know, Mr. Milorad Krnojelac was never involved in

19 politics and never belonged to any political party. I know him as an

20 excellent teacher, a good parent, a good husband, and all I heard from all

21 the neighbours I had occasion to speak to about him was good. Milorad

22 Krnojelac consorted with many people and worked with many people, and I

23 have never seen him in the company of a political party leader, and I

24 don't know that he ever contacted one.

25 Q. Thank you, sir.

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has no

2 further questions of this witness.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Cross-examination, Ms. Kuo.

4 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Matovic.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. Your nickname is Mata, right?

9 A. I apologise, I can't -- I cannot see the transcript on the

10 monitor. Can I answer?

11 Q. Yes, please.

12 A. Yes, that's how my colleagues call me, that's my nickname.

13 Q. While as a fireman at the KP Dom, what was the area of your

14 responsibility, was it confined just to the KP Dom, or did you do fire

15 fighting outside the KP Dom as well?

16 A. I was assigned to the furniture factory as a fireman to try and

17 set up a fire fighting service there, but I worked everywhere. I covered

18 the entire KP Dom, and it was my duty to take care of fire fighting

19 arrangements throughout the KP Dom. But I was -- I had the most work in

20 the furniture factory because there were a lot of flammable materials

21 there, wood, sponge, varnishes, and even a small spark could lead to a

22 catastrophe and explosion.

23 Q. So in other words, you had -- your fire fighting jurisdiction, so

24 to speak, covered the entire KP Dom and was not confined to one building

25 such as the furniture factory? You had -- you were responsible for the

1 fire fighting safety, let's say, fire safety in the administrative

2 building as well and the prisoners' quarters?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. And you kept that same jurisdiction throughout the war as well,

5 right? That did not change.

6 A. There was no change, except that we formed this fire fighting unit

7 which included other staff members, and since I was a professional fireman

8 and also a security officer, I picked my own deputies who were in charge

9 of other departments such as the farm, the metalwork shop, et cetera, and

10 we usually assigned people who had passed the fire fighters' exam to

11 buildings 1 and 2 as well.

12 So I had my deputies who regularly submitted reports to me

13 concerning fire fighting arrangements and fire security.

14 Q. And you were responsible for fire safety at the farm as well,

15 right?

16 A. Yes. I took care of fire safety at the farm as well, but I was

17 not the only one responsible. The manager of the farm was also

18 responsible, and he was primarily responsible because he had a leading

19 position there, a managerial position, because nobody could occupy such a

20 position without having passed a fireman's exam.

21 Q. Within the KP Dom, could you tell us where the Serb civilian

22 prisoners were kept?

23 A. As far as I know, although I didn't go to those buildings, they

24 were in Rooms 19; and I think detainees, Serb detainees, were in Room 21.

25 Q. When you say "Serb detainees," what class? You mean the military

1 detainees who were Serb?

2 A. Yes, I mean Serb military detainees in 21, and old convicts, so to

3 speak, who were in Room 19.

4 Q. During 1992 and the first part of 1993, you were working at KP

5 Dom, right? I mean, I know you worked longer than that, but let's confine

6 ourselves to that time.

7 A. I didn't quite get this. In which period?

8 Q. From the time that you were assigned to work at the KP Dom in May

9 of 1992 until July of 1993, where were the Muslim detainees kept?

10 A. In that period, Muslim detainees were kept in Rooms 20, 18, 23,

11 16. I believe that my colleagues who manned this area could tell you more

12 about this because I spent most of my time in the furniture factory, and I

13 visited that part of the KP Dom very often [as interpreted]. I only met

14 my colleagues at lunch, that's all.

15 Q. You were responsible for all of those rooms, right, in terms of

16 fire safety? You didn't make any distinction between Room 19 and any of

17 the other rooms, did you?

18 A. Yes. I was responsible for all the rooms, and every room had fire

19 extinguishers in it because all the mains were very old and sometimes

20 damaged by the war operations, and firewood was used for heating, so that

21 the risk of fire was pretty high.

22 Q. You said firewood was used for heating. Do you mean that firewood

23 was being used in the rooms?

24 A. Yes, because the heating didn't work. We used firewood for

25 heating at the KP Dom at the time, and during the winter, from 700 to

1 1.000 cubic metres of firewood were used.

2 Q. Isn't it true that the firewood was being used to heat rooms only

3 after the Red Cross brought wood stoves in the winter of 1993? That's

4 when the firewood started being used, right?

5 A. No, no. This is not true. We had stoves before, and we used them

6 for heating even before, but the stoves were very old, and we asked the

7 Red Cross to help and send us some better stoves, because we also had this

8 metalwork shop where we did repairs of the stoves ourselves. And there

9 was heating throughout that time. There was not a single moment, not a

10 single second that a room was left without heating. Every room had

11 firewood for heating.

12 Q. The workers in the metalwork shop could make wooden -- make stoves

13 for burning wood, but they didn't, did they? Not for use within the KP

14 Dom.

15 A. They could work, and as I said, there was between six and

16 eight - I don't know exactly how many - Muslims detainees, some civilians,

17 and they were not forbidden from working. So they worked without any kind

18 of security or guards in the metal plant.

19 Q. My question was about what they made in the metalwork shop. They

20 didn't actually make wood-burning stoves for use by the detainees in the

21 KP Dom, did they?

22 A. In addition to all the other things they did, they also made

23 stoves and did repairs. That was one of their tasks, although in addition

24 to making stoves and repairing them, they also made kiosks and fences and

25 everything else that was necessary.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 Q. The stoves they made was for the use of the army, right?

2 A. No, no. That is not right. They were not made for the use of the

3 army. They -- we made it for our own purposes, because I went to the army

4 myself and I got four extra stoves for the detainee rooms here. I had

5 them issued to me personally in my own name, and I brought them to the KP

6 Dom, and then they were distributed to various detainee rooms.

7 Q. But just let me clarify that. You received those four

8 wood-burning stoves from the army, not from the metal shop, right? The

9 metal shop itself never made wood-burning stoves for direct use by the

10 detainees, right? And the example you gave, the army received the

11 wood-burning stoves first, and then it was only because you went to the

12 army that you were able to get those four stoves, right?

13 A. I didn't say that. There seems to be some kind of

14 misunderstanding. They repaired stoves from the rooms. They repaired

15 their own stoves in the metal plant, while I went to the army and had four

16 stoves issued to me, because some stoves were so old and in such bad shape

17 that they couldn't be used.

18 Q. Mr. Matovic, you mentioned several times rehabilitation officers.

19 Could you tell us what their role was?

20 A. I mentioned Milutin Tijanic. At that time he was head of the

21 rehabilitation service. I don't know if I mentioned Aleksa Zecevic, a

22 rehabilitation officer who was also in charge of the Serbs who were doing

23 their time from earlier on. Their task, the task of the rehabilitation

24 service, was to contact convicted and detained and imprisoned persons

25 every day, to give them every kind of assistance, and anything they may

1 have needed.

2 Q. So they're different from guards?

3 A. I don't know in which sense you mean, differed from the guards.

4 All the guards who worked in the compound and these rehabilitation

5 officers who got into the compound every now and then, they were all

6 supposed to take part in conversations with detained and imprisoned

7 persons within the KP Dom compound.

8 Q. Are you saying that as a guard you had specific instructions that

9 you must speak with the detainees and tell them things? Is that what

10 you're saying?

11 A. No. Never did I have any specific instructions from anyone. As a

12 human being, I talked to anyone who asked me to help him, in any way. And

13 I did that. It's not that somebody told me, go there and talk to someone

14 or do not go and talk to someone. That never happened.

15 Q. I'm still interested in your use of the word "rehabilitation

16 officer." The goal of a rehabilitation officer is to help the detainees

17 or the prisoners so that when they leave, they can enter back into

18 society, right? That's the meaning of the word.

19 A. Yes, that's the way it's supposed to be. That's the way we worked

20 before the war, during the war, and after the war.

21 Q. And during the war, the rehabilitation officers worked only with

22 the Serb civilian prisoners, right? There were no rehabilitation officers

23 for the Muslim detainees, were there?

24 A. There were rehabilitation officers for all. We did not

25 distinguish between different ethnicities. We tried to help people as

1 best we could to make it easier for them to serve their sentences in every

2 respect, regardless of who would address us or what was at stake, whether

3 there was a quarrel, whether there was some kind of a problem, we would

4 talk to these people and try to sort things out.

5 Q. The rehabilitation officer in a prison is meant to help somebody

6 who is in prison because he's a criminal, right, so he can go back into

7 society and be a reformed person, correct?

8 A. We don't know who is a criminal and who is not. Everybody is the

9 same to us. Whoever comes to the KP Dom, we are going to receive him

10 cordially and give him every assistance and everything that he needs. It

11 is our duty to do that. We never looked at who had what ethnicity or who

12 was convicted of what. For us, this is an offender who was sent to us,

13 and it is our duty to bring him back to the right path.

14 Q. So tell me, sir, what sentences were the Muslims serving when the

15 war started? What were they convicted of?

16 A. The Muslims who were detained by the Serb authorities -- that is

17 to say, the war had already started. Everybody was trying to run away,

18 both one and the other. All those who happened to be there in that period

19 were brought into the KP Dom, that is to say, that if the authorities had

20 some kind of knowledge to the effect that some people were involved in

21 activities that were not permitted or that they had weapons or that they

22 took part in the war conflicts or in the instigation of war conflicts,

23 they were brought in, not only because a person was a Serb or Muslim.

24 Serbs were brought in, Muslims were brought in; that is to say, that it

25 was not only because they were Muslims.

1 Q. Of the 500 or 550 detainees you talked about passing through KP

2 Dom in 1992 and 1993, what percentage of them were Muslim? Almost all of

3 them were, weren't they?

4 A. Believe me, I don't know about that. I heard of this figure from

5 my colleagues, this figure concerning the Muslims who worked with me, but

6 I don't really know about these figures. I just -- from my job, I could

7 not really tell who was of what ethnicity.

8 Q. So it made no difference to you whether somebody was a Muslim

9 detainee or a convicted Serb prisoner, right? All the same.

10 A. I never made any distinction as to whether it was a Serb or a

11 Croat or a Muslim. If a person was in prison, I wanted them all to have

12 equal rights, and I wanted them all to be helped, regardless of

13 ethnicity. I never took any sides. That can be proven as to have been my

14 behaviour before the war, during the war, and after the war.

15 Q. You were never told to make any distinction between the Serb

16 military detainees and the Serb civilian prisoners, either, right? You

17 were never told to treat them differently or to keep them somehow -- other

18 than their being in different rooms, to treat them differently?

19 A. Never, never. I was never told that. And if somebody

20 had said that to us, the old policemen, the professional policemen, that

21 could not have happened. I already said this. What mattered to us was

22 whether this was a person or -- we were not involved in ethnicity.

23 Everybody was entitled to breakfast, lunch, dinner. So we treated Serbs

24 and Croats the way we treated Muslims.

25 Q. You told is that Mitar Rasevic was your superior, and that meant,

1 in your mind, the person you would go to, your immediate supervisor,

2 right?

3 A. Mitar Rasevic was my supervisor before the war as well. Mitar

4 Rasevic was my supervisor after the war, too. And I can state with

5 certainty that everything I learned in this service, all the good things I

6 learned, I learned from this man; that he's a great professional who went

7 through all the stages in police work, from a police trainee to junior

8 policeman, senior policeman, superintendent, and then when he got a

9 university degree, he became a rehabilitation officer and then the head of

10 guards. And I have been saying time and again that we will never, ever

11 have such a supervisor again.

12 Q. And surely Mr. Rasevic didn't tell you or any of your other

13 colleagues to treat the Serb civilian prisoners any differently from the

14 Serb military detainees or the Muslim detainees, right?

15 A. No one ever said that to us, including Mitar Rasevic. Everybody

16 was lined up together, everybody ate together, and if there was any food

17 left after meals, it was not given only to Serbs and Croats, for example,

18 and not to a Muslim. People would stand in queue, and that was it. There

19 were no differences. And I'm sure that if any one of us who had worked in

20 this service had done this and if Mitar had found out about that, we

21 would have been punished.

22 Q. Mitar Rasevic was not in charge of the KP Dom, was he?

23 A. Mitar Rasevic was commander or- how do you say this? - the head

24 of police, only for the Security Service. Commander of the Security

25 Service.

1 Q. There was somebody above him, right? I mean, he himself also had

2 a supervisor, right?

3 A. Believe me, I am not aware of these powers, who Mitar could have

4 been answerable to. I know who I answered to. And whether he reported

5 back to someone, I don't know about that. As for anything good or bad I

6 might have done, I knew who my supervisor was.

7 Q. You have no idea whatsoever to whom Mitar Rasevic reported, right?

8 A. I think that there weren't any reports there. I really don't know

9 who he could report to.

10 Q. I don't mean a written report. I mean if he wasn't in charge,

11 there must have been somebody above him, and you're telling us you have no

12 idea who that person is, right? I just want to make sure I understand you

13 correctly.

14 A. As for my service, the Security Service, any offence that would be

15 committed would be reported to Mitar in writing. Mitar as head of this

16 service of mine was duty-bound to inform the ministry.

17 Q. Which --

18 A. The Ministry of Justice.

19 Q. And even during the war this was true, right?

20 A. Yes, yes, during the war.

21 Q. If Mr. Rasevic had not reported, that would most likely be seen as

22 a breach of his obligation, right? And that's not something he would have

23 done. He definitely would have reported what he knew to his immediate

24 superior.

25 A. I have said that Mitar submitted reports to the minister of

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 justice.

2 Q. You know Savo Todovic, right?

3 A. I know Savo Todovic because Savo Todovic worked there perhaps a

4 year or two before I started working there. He first was the clerk in

5 charge of convicted persons, and then he was transferred and became lawyer

6 in the KP Dom services.

7 Q. When the war started, what position did Savo Todovic have?

8 A. Savo Todovic was the lawyer there.

9 Q. And he remained a lawyer there until 1990 -- until July of 1993,

10 right?

11 A. Until when, I don't really know, as lawyer, that is. But I know

12 that he was the lawyer and that he sat in an office that was quite

13 opposite to that of the warden. Believe me, I never had to go to see the

14 man, and I never went to see him, but according to what my colleagues were

15 saying, he held that position, the position of lawyer there.

16 Q. Yes. My question is, even after the war started, he stayed in

17 that same position, right? He stayed as lawyer of KP Dom. The fact that

18 the war started did not change his position?

19 A. When the war broke out, he was there already as lawyer, and as I

20 have been telling you, according to what the employees, detainees, and

21 prisoners knew, he was assigned -- how should I put this to you now? He

22 was the main person on behalf of the KP Dom for these imprisoned persons,

23 of Muslim ethnicity, that is.

24 Q. So you're saying the Muslim ethnicity -- the detainees of Muslim

25 ethnicity had a separate lawyer? I thought you told me they were all

1 treated the same. Did you mean to say that?

2 A. All have the same treatment; however, on behalf of the military,

3 on behalf of the military, according to what my colleagues said, Savo was

4 in charge of this population, of these detainees.

5 Q. Who was -- let me go back. Savo was in that same position of

6 lawyer before the war, right?

7 A. No, not before the war. I said already that before the war, he

8 was the clerk for convicted persons.

9 Q. As clerk for the convicted persons, before the war there were only

10 convicted persons at the KP Dom or those who were being investigated for

11 criminal charges, right?

12 A. Yes. Before the war there were Serbs and Muslims, detained

13 persons, and he was the clerk for convicted persons belonging to all

14 populations.

15 Q. And there were still some convicted persons of Serb ethnicity who

16 stayed at the KP Dom after the war started, right?

17 A. There were some convicted persons who stayed behind and who were

18 transferred to the farm, outside where the farm was.

19 Q. But they still stayed, or at least some of them stayed within the

20 KP Dom compound, right, in Room 19? You told us that.

21 A. That's a small number, but I really can't remember the names.

22 Q. I haven't asked you --

23 A. I think that Nenad Mikerevic was there.

24 Q. Sir, I haven't asked you the names. I just want to be clear so

25 that your answers are clear. There were some Serb detainees -- Serb

1 convicted persons who were staying in Room 19 at the KP Dom after the war

2 started, right?

3 A. Yes, yes, there were. There were those who were convicted and who

4 were staying in Room 19.

5 Q. And of those people, Savo Todovic had, as clerk before the war, he

6 had responsibility for those people as well as all the other convicted

7 people who had left or been taken away from KP Dom? The people who

8 remained at KP Dom were among the people for whom Savo Todovic had

9 jurisdiction, right?

10 A. I said that I heard from my colleagues, including Muslim

11 colleagues who worked there at the KP Dom together with me, that Savo was

12 in charge of Muslim detainees then.

13 Q. "Then," when?

14 A. That means -- well, I can't remember the date exactly. I mean

15 around the 10th of May, from the 10th of May onwards.

16 Q. 1992? Yes?

17 A. Around the 10th of May, around the 10th of May. I can't remember

18 the date exactly. At any rate, it seems to me it was around the 10th, the

19 10th of May. Somewhere around mid-May, something like that.

20 Q. Sir, at that time you didn't have any more Muslim colleagues, did

21 you? There were no more Muslim employees at KP Dom.

22 A. At that time, at that time we did not have any Muslim colleagues,

23 but I had colleagues, two colleagues, who had worked with me before the

24 war, they had the same job, [redacted] --

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last name.

1 A. I did not look at them in any other way except as colleagues. For

2 me, they were not Muslim detainees, they were colleagues with whom I had

3 worked for ten years or so.

4 Q. Sir, could you give us [redacted] last name? The interpreter did

5 not hear it.

6 A. [redacted].

7 Q. You talked with these two individuals, right?

8 A. Of course I did. [redacted] worked with me at the

9 factory, and he had cigarettes and cigarettes coming in from me, and he

10 addressed me for anything he needed. And the other one, [redacted], before

11 the war he spent ten -- five years together with me working on censorship,

12 and he worked with me in the Miljevina mine for about a year.

13 Q. And it was from [redacted] as well that you learned that the

14 Muslims were going to attack from Sukovac, right?

15 A. Not directly from him but from a colleague who was with him, that

16 he had told him, [redacted] did, that there would be an attack from Sukovac.

17 Because you see, on the 8th of April when the war started, we, the Muslims

18 and the Serbs, we agreed together with Alija Berberkic and Milutin

19 Tijanic, the head of the rehabilitation service, that --

20 Q. Sir, you don't need to repeat what you've already told us. Okay.

21 A. Can I just say this? I don't think it's been recorded. We agreed

22 that we should defend the KP Dom regardless of who would attack it,

23 Muslims or Serbs. And from any direction, at that.

24 MS. KUO: Your Honours, I see that it's 4.00.

25 JUDGE HUNT: We'll adjourn and resume at 9.30 in the morning.

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4 p.m., to be

2 reconvened on Tuesday, the 29th day of May, 2001,

3 at 9.30 a.m.

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25